The cornerstone of rock...
I know somewhere, some wise-ass will want to take issue, but it can be reasonably argued that electric guitar is the cornerstone of rock and roll. It's not the only element and it doesn't have to be the most important element, but if you wanted to "explain" rock and roll to someone, you might just play them an electric guitar riff.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - roger nowosielski
Well, I hope is just kidding.
27 - zingzing
bah. don't want to kill of your generation.
i'm glad that you'll die off... but that's nothing personal. best generation yet, except for us. some of us, anyway.
i just want another beatles. but music is too fragmented for them to really come around again.
28 - El Bicho
I'd settle for another Monkees at this point. Harumph!
29 - Ruvy
I'd settle for another Monkees at this point.
O! How the mighty have fallen! Tell it not in Gaza (wait, that's another thread...)
30 - roger nowosielski
"best generation yet, except for us. some of us, anyway."
No it ain't, zingie. You missed the Beatles and you missed the sixties.
There'll never be a time like that in American history. You can only imagine.
31 - zingzing
ahh, rose-colored glasses. i can only imagine? you can only recall. and if what they say is true (and it never is), you weren't there either.
also, i've probably experienced the beatles as much as you have. maybe not on the day it came out, etc, etc, but no one's experienced that since the day it came out.
all that said, false nostalgia for the 60s leaves a bad taste in my mouth (called the 70s).
32 - roger nowosielski
You're missing the point. You're missing the context. Everything was in sync, music, lyrics, the times.
And you can't even speak of the seventies as leaving a bad taste in your mouth - you weren't even born.
So yes, you've missed it all, but I don't hold it against you. You're still turning out to be alright.
33 - zingzing
"You're missing the context. Everything was in sync, music, lyrics, the times."
that's the way it always is. things don't exist outside of their context.
"And you can't even speak of the seventies as leaving a bad taste in your mouth - you weren't even born."
well, i wasn't being literal. the 70s are the aftertaste of the 60s, the time/place brought on by the 60s. and i think the malaise that produced the late 70s punk boom created far better music than the hippies/swinging london ever did. so i can look back to a time i didn't exist in, note the general suckiness of it, but see something great arise from that suck, thus producing the period of music i was born into, which is obviously the best that ever was or will be. until they drop the bomb.
34 - roger nowosielski
I didn't mean to suggest, BTW, you can't have a feel for the times you haven't experienced. If such were the case, we couldn't interpret history.
Sixties was a mixed bag - musically and otherwise, a crucible. That's how I see it. So yes, it gave rise to better works (and worse). But perhaps works of art should be subject to a time-table, unless they're aspiring to be avant garde. (Does Andy Warhol's work have the same meaning today when they did then? And if they do, is there anything that had been lost? What? The immediate identification with the times? They're surely memorialized, but is it the same?)
The relationship between art, popular culture, and the state of society, is an interesting one and definitely worth pursuing. You might want to look at Theodore Roszak's work (made famous by "The Making of a Counter-Culture"), but he had written since. Also at Marshall McLuhan.
You do seem to have good feel for music, so perhaps you might want to devote some time to making the necessary connections and write an article or two. It'd certainly be a change of pace from the kind of daily diet we're accustomed to in the BC Politics section.
And no - you don't want to kill off my generation, at least me in any case. I'm here to keep you straight and free from error.
And now, God bless you, my son.
35 - Josh Hathaway
Mental note: never write about The Beatles ever again. Feel free to continue.
36 - roger nowosielski
Zing,
I didn't mean to be obtuse. If you want me to clarify, just say so.
37 - Dr Dreadful
You know what I find interesting? I agree that rock is guitar-driven - in fact, it's arguable that a pop song without any guitar in it isn't rock (Eleanor Rigby?).
Still, the primary means of identifying a band is through the singer. The voices of Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, Jim Morrison, Robert Plant, Roger Daltrey all made their bands instantly recognisable.
But how many rock guitarists have a sound so distinctive that you can instantly recognise who's playing? I can only think of two: Carlos Santana and Eric Clapton.
38 - roger nowosielski
Good point. Perhaps in the final analysis, it has all got to the do with the lyrics - the message.
Come to think of it, all music is dumb (if it's bereft of the message, that is!)
39 - El Bicho
Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, David Gilmour
40 - Dr Dreadful
Forgot about Hendrix, El B. Have to give you that one.
Not sure about the other two.
41 - zingzing
johnny marr (at least in the smiths), prince, keith levine, kevin shields, the guys from bedhead, bernard sumner, steve albini, blixa bargeld (at least in einsturzende neubauten), doug marsch, blahblahblah...
42 - zingzing
and roger, i do get your point, but i balk at nostalgia. and i have written in the music section before. a few i'm pretty proud of, but there are a few where you can tell i'm just in fanboy mode.
43 - JC Mosquito
Nope - I think maybe zing's just looking for intellligent conversation, and finds it here (most of the time). I suspect most of us are not quite old enough to be zing's Mum or Dad, so it's OK - it's not like we're talking liberation politics or rollin' doobies in front of the kidz or anything.
And zing, you know I often concur with your taste, except for those non-commercial gems you find laying about, just because I don't know them. I don't have as much time for that as I once did, but truly, I really did for the longest time. I remember hearing about but not actually hearing the Stooges, and then I bought Iggy Pop's the Idiot, and I thought - this doesn't sound like rock n roll at all - but it's still cool.
You're all cool here on bc. We're all cool because we ae a sinister cabal of superior writers............... whatever that means.
44 - zingzing
jc: "Nope - I think maybe zing's just looking for intellligent conversation, and finds it here (most of the time)."
in the music section, that's mostly true. although half of my time spent here is battling off the "the 60s were the greatest era for music" malarkey. so i guess i'm here more for an argument than strictly "intelligent conversation."
"And zing, you know I often concur with your taste, except for those non-commercial gems you find laying about, just because I don't know them. I don't have as much time for that as I once did, but truly, I really did for the longest time."
variety is the spice of life. and those gems are littering the floor. just gotta go pick one up.
"I remember hearing about but not actually hearing the Stooges, and then I bought Iggy Pop's the Idiot, and I thought - this doesn't sound like rock n roll at all - but it's still cool."
it's like rock n roll put out at night to cool, then a giant slug rolls over it, leaving a smear. no sane person wants to touch it, but you gotta get it back somehow. still, you hold it delicately and far away from your face until you can wash it off.
45 - roger nowosielski
zing,
I'm not for nostalgia. I'm just into today as you are, so don't attribute false feelings to me.
PS: Disregard my last post or two. I don't even remember posting.
46 - Mark Saleski
Good point. Perhaps in the final analysis, it has all got to the do with the lyrics - the message.
that's crazy talk
Come to think of it, all music is dumb (if it's bereft of the message, that is!)
that's crazy talk squared!
47 - Mark Saleski
But how many rock guitarists have a sound so distinctive that you can instantly recognise who's playing? I can only think of two: Carlos Santana and Eric Clapton.
seriously?
Jerry Garcia
Keith Richards
David Gilmour
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa
Robert Fripp
Adrian Belew
Ted Nugent
Tony Iommmi
Jeff Beck
...
48 - roger nowosielski
You're certainly not a classicist, Saleski, for all the musical knowledge you seem to exude. Before any music qua music, there was always a spoken voice - such as in the Greek chorus. The spoken voice, rhythm and cadedence, along with (some dancing) were the essential elements of "music." The separation of music from voice came way, way later.
So I suggest you had better get educated first before coming off with your snarly and immature comments.
49 - roger nowosielski
"music is too fragmented for them to really come around again."
reflection of the times, zing, that's all.
I've told you, write an article,
50 - Mark Saleski
So I suggest you had better get educated first before coming off with your snarly and immature comments.
and i suggest you get that large arthropod removed from your posterior.
51 - roger nowosielski
So yes, you're just another one of those music commentators who knows it all.
At last we've found out.
52 - zingzing
roger: "So I suggest you had better get educated first before coming off with your snarly and immature comments."
woah, boy. hold up a moment. i think you misinterpret mr. saleski's intention.
we're talking about pop music here, not the music of the spheres. so don't get up on any high horses... it's just music. and if you were to tell me you like the grateful dead, i'd tell you that you were an idiot, but i wouldn't really mean it. fuckin dumb band. fuck led zepplin too. gawd. such crap.
have you ever heard of the dylanist vs. enoist argument? dylan, of course, puts lyrics above music (although that's a reductive argument, to say the least--and it has more to do with that artist's fans than it does the artist him/herself), while the enoist (named for brian eno, a sound wizard, who, when he did use lyrics, wrote them totally at the mercy of the music, "whatever sounds good, even if it doesn't make sense,") values music over lyrics.
it's more what you listen to first. i, for instance, am an enoist. i don't give two shits about lyrics if the music isn't great (although the vocal melody has a lot to do with that), and rarely even pay attention to lyrical content if the musical elements don't pique my interest. if, after i'm on board musically, the lyrics are something grand, it's an added attraction, to varying degrees. all that said, i don't like a lot of purely instrumental music. even bands that have unintelligible vocals usually trump that have none for me.
but, it's never one way or the other--it's not "the message" that i'm after most of the time, but to call it "dumb" (and do say that after saying "the message" is all-important...) is to miss the point. music trumps speech because it adds musical qualities to whatever message comes out. speech is a boring version of music, i guess. (and there are examples of great lyrics that are so grand that it doesn't matter how shit the music is. although i can't think of any right now. usually someone smart enough to write such incredible lyrics can write music as well. i wish i could write music. that would be soooooo awesome.)
53 - roger nowosielski
Whatever. By his last comment, and the previous one as well, he showed his true colors [personal attack deleted]. Do you want me to give a fuck?
So now, let's talk intelligently.
54 - roger nowosielski
I would if he were an imbecile. But if he were an imbecile, I'd treat him accordingly - which is to say, with respect. Being that he is not, but has all the requisite pretensions, I'll say it again - fuck him.
55 - Mark Saleski
c'mon roger, be a man! call me an asshole. it's ok. that you don't get my intent and proceed to throw down this silly classicist gauntlet? sorry, you've missed the point.
56 - roger nowosielski
I just did in case you missed it.
57 - roger nowosielski
But that's OK, Mark. I don't hold grudges. So I can forget this one if you will.
58 - Mark Saleski
gawd, as if we needed it, further proof that the bc politics section sours humanity.
59 - roger nowosielski
Sure it does. I guess this was an unwarranted crossover.
60 - zingzing
me: "music is too fragmented for them to really come around again."
roger: "reflection of the times, zing, that's all. I've told you, write an article."
and i told you i already did write an article (or 8). but not about this. this doesn't need an article.
think of it this way. if you're just going to talk about rock music, think of 1954 as year zero. you have country and you have r&b/blues. they sit up top and there are two lines drawn from each that reach down and end at "rock n roll." it pretty much sits there for a few years, with a few little micro-genres popping up.
in the early 60s, the beatles, phil specter and beach boys come around and things start to open up. the family tree of rock starts to blossom. it breaks off in many directions during the 60s, but really explodes towards the end of the 70s. it's exponential. hundreds of little genres show up. in the last 30 years, those have grown to thousands.
just this year, a couple of genres that have shown up. one has been one coined "shitgaze," referring to a lo-fi (referencing a late-80s american movement), shoegazing (referencing an early-90s british movement), girl-group (60s american, but revived 80s uk), guitar-driven pop.
another is called "glo-fi," referring to this sunny kind of dance music that recalls balearic (spanish/british sound from the early 90s featuring a rolling drum sound), but driven more by indie rock ideas from the us/uk, much more song-oriented than the usual dance music.
i bring those up to point out that there is no central point in the spectrum. the beatles inhabited, and expanded, that central point. rock music has expanded to such a point that there will never be a band that can encompass it all again. to do so, you'd have to make a white album that stretched from here to the south pole. it's just not possible to cover rock music the way they were able to anymore. it's far too broad.
61 - zingzing
jeez, roger... mark's a nice guy. he may have been a bit snarky, but it was just an opinion about music. i remember the time i seriously got in a fist fight based on "the who vs. led zepp." felt like an idiot about that one for a good decade now.
62 - roger nowosielski
Get your point, zing. But you yourself speak of "unfractured" music - a kind of longing for integration? And surely, we can't hold pop to the same standards. Still, the idea of work of art implies a meaning, an intended meaning. Otherwise, why do it? It's ornamental without meaning.
So perhaps I did not discern Mark's intent. But he had attacked the proposition outright, as though without merit.
63 - roger nowosielski
I realize that, zing, and I believe I'm making amends. What more do you want me to do?
I won't kiss ass unless I look at it first. So I can't do it online.
64 - Mark Saleski
Still, the idea of work of art implies a meaning, an intended meaning. Otherwise, why do it? It's ornamental without meaning.
so do you think the idea of a melody (or often an improvised piece of music) "telling a story" is without merit? a great example, using the human voice as the instrument, is the singing on Pink Floyd's "The Great Gig In The Sky".
i bring this up because i'm really more in zing's camp with regard to lyrics. words are sufficient for imparting meaning, but not necessary.
i guess what i'm saying is that there's more than one way to look at this.
65 - zingzing
roger: "Get your point, zing. But you yourself speak of "unfractured" music - a kind of longing for integration?"
nah. it'll never happen again. and that's a good thing. sure, i'd love it if a band as universal as the beatles showed up, but that's not gonna happen in any recognizable fashion.
"Still, the idea of work of art implies a meaning, an intended meaning. Otherwise, why do it? It's ornamental without meaning."
good music has its own meaning. even instrumental music, without an explicit message, can move one to tears. just because it's so damn good. music is essential, even if it is ornamental.
"But he had attacked the proposition outright, as though without merit."
that's the way music arguments go. arguing about something that is purely subjective doesn't have the same rules.
"I realize that, zing, and I believe I'm making amends. What more do you want me to do?"
just make nice. it's no big deal. just music. even if mark says he likes led zepplin, i'll call him a "fuckin dumb redneck piece of shit" or something, but he'll know that i don't really care that much. fuck led zepplin and drop the bomb on their fans. assholes.
66 - zingzing
roger: "I won't kiss ass unless I look at it first."
ew, i only kiss ass with my eyes closed and my nose turned away.
67 - roger nowosielski
Cool. How can I argue against Beethoven or Mahler? In fact, "muse," from which the term music comes from, is the queen of the arts.
68 - roger nowosielski
You mean you don't even wipe it? Just kidding.
69 - roger nowosielski
Zing, trying to think of the last hit single, I think by Kinks but I may be wrong. Tremendous lyrics - the conservative talk-show hosts were raving about it. Some line in it about the King/s (and not standing up for tyranny). Came up about a year ago.
Can you think of it?
70 - zingzing
the kinks? i haven't heard anything out of them since the mid-90s. i could have missed it.
71 - roger nowosielski
I know it's not the Kings. Another British group by a similar, short name.
72 - roger nowosielski
There go my misspellings.
73 - Cindy
PS: Disregard my last post or two. I don't even remember posting.
i seriously got in a fist fight based on "the who vs. led zepp."
and i suggest you get that large arthropod removed from your posterior.
This thread is hiLaRiOUs!
Freakin' men! Ha! Thank god you were invented or women would have nothing to laugh so hard at! Now you'll all probably buy each other a beer! (or whatever it is you drink)
This guy has it right: "Mental note: never write about The Beatles ever again. Feel free to continue."
74 - zingzing
cindy, the world of men is constant hilarity. but right now, i wish women had never been invented. gawd.
75 - roger nowosielski
OK, Cindy. When I woke up, I thought it was AM. Then I was rudely awakened.