Not to be confused with a brain fart...
Anyway, this has been on my mind for since...well...forever!
Why is it that the vast majority of pop music still originates only from the U.S. and the U.K.?
Think about it. True, Spain and Latin America have their own brand of salsa, etc. but that's not mainstream pop. Of course Latin American performers cross over quite often too.
Japan, the Netherlands, Germany--a few. Feh. Australia--some.
France? Yeah, right.
But after all these decades, it still seems that the US and the UK produce the vast majority of the world's pop. Yes, they borrow from international sources, but you know what I'm sayin', right?
I opened this question up to the "regulars" over at my blog, Shithouse rat. Some contended that it was merely the English language factor. Some simply said that the U.S. begat rock and roll, the Brits ran with it, and it's remained essentially that way ever since just, well...just BECAUSE.
Someone else pointed out that Japanese and Indian pop is having its own run for the money. But my question there is--why isn't it crossing over more into the English-speaking market? It's one thing to have George Harrison collaborate with Ravi Shankar (he did, didn't he?), and for some early 60s musicians to have a mini-love affair with the sitar, but that's about as far as it went, isn't it?
There are undoubtedly international influences in pop today, no question. But they always seem to be co-opted by English or Brit mega-artists, and the international popsters never seem to really break out on their own into the mainstream market too much.
Here's the progression, as I see it:
American pop derived from African American influences, particularly the blues and early R & B rockers like Chuck Berry and Fats Domino. Pat Boone's cover of Domino's "Aint' that a Shame," which became a huge hit, was a shame indeed--in fact, to my mind, it was a horrible embarrassment.
Similarly, Elvis was initially shunned by some because his music sounded too "wild" and heavily influenced by black performers. But that was precisely what made it so irresistible to the youth of the time.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - J. P. Spencer
This was a good itch you scratched, Elvira.
I think that the biggest reason we live in an Anglo-dominated pop world is that the U.S and the U.K. simply have more resources to break music to a wide audience.
I think if a decision was made by a top studio head that more non-English-speaking pop would be the focus of the label's A/R department, that would happen, but labels cater to those who have the disposable income to purchase music in the first place. Save for that lonely IPod owner in Burundi, that would more than likely be Americans and Britains. Unfortunately, most American music listeners want to hear ONLY English-speaking singers.
We are already seeing a paradigm shift as far as the Latin influence coming onto the American pop charts (Shakira, Ricky Martin et al). I predict that due to continuing Spanish-speaking migration to our shores, the music we hear the most in the latter half of the 21st century will be in a language other than English. I view that as a good thing, because music evolves only when it expands its horizons and mixes with something else. I for one would love to hear a Spanish-speaking Otis Redding type doing old style Stax soul with a different cultural flavor just to see where it would go.
2 - zingzing
i think the main reason why we hear mostly english-language pop music is because... we live in an english-speaking country. if you go to japan, you will hear mostly japanese music, with, of course, some anglo-pop. go to russia, hear some russian music. american and british musics succeed all over the globe, but most countries have their own pop market that mostly don't make it back this way. i mean, do you really want to hear an italian pop song? nah... probably don't. but italians do.
foreign pop music has been around as long as american or british pop music. germany had an experimental rock scene in the 70's, which still goes on today. france makes great techno-pop. japan has a hardcore scene. finland has an incredibly strange folk scene. italian disco influenced early hip hop. brazilian pop has been mildly popular in america for ages. mexico city's rock scene has some incredible bands. the netherlands' punk scene is as interesting as chicago's punk scene. canadians are making better music than the english or americans right now. african pop has seen a post-james brown renaissance.
there is plenty of good pop music all over the world. we just don't hear it because we are ignorant to its merits. plus, radio programming sucks.
3 - Andy Marsh
zingzing - I have to disagree with that staement. I was In Germany last year for 2 1/2 months. The ONLY channel on TV besides CNN that wasn't dubbed in english was MTV. They actually put subtitles on MTV and dub ALL their movies in German. But on MTV, there was some German music, but for the most part, it was songs like Don'tCha...and trust me...waking up to the Pussycat Dolls every morning wasn't necessarily a bad thing.
4 - zingzing
andy, what do you disagree with? you say there was some german music... i'm sure, much like it is in america, there is more interesting below the surface than above it. germany's techno scene is particularily creative and important to the world. just go to www.allmusic.com, look up any german band (try can, or einsturzende neubauten or kraftwerk, just to get started), click on the city where they formed (on the left, underneath the picture), and i'm sure you will come up with pages and pages of artists from each city. these lists only reflect pop, jazz and experimental artists, not classical (as those are in a different database).
i'm pretty sure that by doing this, you can see that, while there is plenty of music coming from america and britain, and it is popular the world round, there is lots of music coming from everywhere, and this is where the "vast majority" of pop music comes from.
5 - Andy Marsh
some...very little though...honestly...it was almost all stuff I could understand the words too...or at least it seemed like they were speaking english...music these days!
I understand what you're saying...but I'm telling you that in all the clubs I went into and on TV it was mostly American...or at least english...
the only two videos I remember was one German dude singing a song about the new love in his life the title translated to "the one" but I can't remember the name of teh song in German and some boy band that I actually thought had a female lead singer until I saw him on an awards show!
I'm sure there's plenty of underground stuff EVERYWHERE, but it's not in the "mainstream". There were two music channels at the hotel I stayed at...one was MTV and the other was a channel called viva...both played primarily music in english.
I don't know if I'd say it's like it is here in America...I can't remember the last time I saw a German music video here in the states.
6 - zingzing
but, music videos aren't the entire pop music realm. ever heard of the new pornographers? i've never seen a video of their's... their music isn't hugely popular... yet, they are more "pop" than most anything out there. if more people heard them, they would be a part of the mainstream, no doubt. pop music is a huge, huge thing.
7 - [MR]Chip
I think it's for the same reason American movies are so dominant: American culture is the dominant culture worldwide. Other nations don't have the inroads globally to have that sort of impact. You see it in food too. Italian food spread largely via American culture, because they had an inroads in the US. Chinese food is the only exception: they actually have communities of people everywhere. For other nations, there's no chance: if you do the same, nobody's waiting for you. The US/Uk are not waiting for the next rockband from Belgium (even though they have some really good ones!). They have plenty of their own. If you're notably different, you'll never appeal to more than a niche. If you happen to sing/rap in your own language, just forget about it. This is why, for example, Dutch dance music has had some successes; it's anonymous, there's no language problem, it's a culture where especially the US isn't as dominant. Otherwise, it's all just Californication...
8 - Guppusmaximus
Personally, I feel that Pop just like Italian & Chinese food is a true misinterpretation of what the real thing is... The Chinese culture doesn't eat Chicken Fingers or Crab Rangoons and depending on what part of Italy you come from not all Italian food is pasta based.
I may come off sounding a bit negative here but the Mainstream Media in the US only covers what makes a buck and hardly ever gets real personal with the spirit of any culture, especially Music.
9 - Elvira Black
Ladies and gentlemen:
I love what you guys are saying, and will join in later. Until then, please do carry on, and many thanks!
10 - Christopher Rose
Elvira, I used to think the same thing but since leaving England behind I've been exposed to several whole new worlds of music which have audiences of people who listen to all that PLUS the UK/US stuff, so guess who's missing out!
Then there are also several billion people worldwide who don't listen to "our stuff" much either...
11 - Elvira Black
J. P. Spencer:
Thanks, and yes, I think the potential for more cultural crossover is there, and the most logical and common example of American pop "diversity" would be Latino in flavor, due to our current demographics. My admittedly unscientific feeling, just from hanging out in NYC and the Bronx in particular, is that some Latinos favor staying close to their musical roots with Spanish language popular ballads and such. However, this more unadulterated Latin sound is unlikely to cross over much into the general population--and I doubt that a lot of mainstream American pop will ever be in Spanish, demographics to the contrary. Most kids want to assimilate into the American musical culture (particularly hip hop, no?) as much as possible, as far as I can see.
There is one masterful example of a pop song by Brit band XTC, "The Man Who Sailed Around his Soul," that had a sort of jazzy piano-bar (American) feel to it. On an XTC tribute album by various artists, a very popular Latin (American) pop musician (Ruben Blades?) did a slightly sinister yet exhilerating salsa interpretation that totally transformed the song into a brand new animal--quite the epiphany. This is the kind of brilliant cross-over potential English-speaking pop has--but I think at this point most of the crossover is more of a one-way street.
Artists like Sting, Peter Gabriel, Paul Simon, and many others have had some success in making international sounds more "palatable" to Western ears, but still and all, most of the co-opting is still done by the Americans and Brits, not vice versa--at least as far as what gets heard here on the radio and such.
I know the music is out there, it's just that the American market is very economically and culturally xenophobic, IMHO, when it comes to the enormously lucrative biz of pop. But the more a genre gets subtly and gradually introduced, the more natural a progression the resultatnt "evolution" seems to be. Or so it seems.
I should also hasten to add that XTC is virtually unknown in this country, so the whole XTC/Ruben Blades thing would have flown right over most people's heads anyway. I'm sure there's many more examples of that.
12 - Elvira Black
zingzing:
Yes, I think you're right--there is doubtless some incredible pop being created worldwide, but most of the examples you pointed out are inspired by American/Brit genres. Not that there's anything wrong with that (lol) but it is what it is, I think. Germany crossed over with Kraftwerk, et al, which did have its own distinct Euro sound. There's a Mexican band called "Animal" that takes all the Brit/American rock/metal influences and makes them almost "better" than the orig in their brilliant execution, but the roots of their inspiration are still quite obvious. Yes, Brazilian pop (Brazil 66 and others) has occasionally fared quite well on our charts. Since the 60s, I think Japan has always revered all things American, no? And so on.
But yes, I think most Americans are missing out on some brilliant global music without a doubt.
13 - Elvira Black
Andy/Zing Zing:
Zing Zing says:
"their music isn't hugely popular... yet, they are more "pop" than most anything out there. if more people heard them, they would be a part of the mainstream, no doubt. pop music is a huge, huge thing."
Exactly--though I think what Andy says is probably more true of what the "average" person is exposed to. But scratch the surface and explore a bit and you'll likely find most of the truly innovative and inventive pop--but it's too "good" and original to get noticed or picked up on by the majors, no?
14 - Elvira Black
{MR] Chip:
Yes, the American film industry dominates the world, but there's a very popular (albeit mostly indigenous) Indian film industry as well. Moreover, Postwar Euro filmmakers esp in the early 60s and onward (Antonioni, Passolini, Goddard, Truffaut, Fassbinder, et al) were enormously influential here and some of them like Polanski began to work here too. But yes, the Americans still have it all over virtually everyone else film wise--in part because we have the most "toys" and money to produce it.
As you mention too, language need not always be a barrier. Lyrics are not usually as important as the sound, which has more universal appeal.
15 - Elvira Black
Guppusmaximus:
Yes, the mainstream media both reflects and perpetuates/engenders mainstream culture and taste in a kind of vicious cycle of commercial redundancy. But I still think that when it comes to pop, there are virtually no other countries where we would be following their lead at this juncture, even if the music were to become more well-known. Hip hop, rap, jazz, rock--all American pop inventions, no? Is there something equally innovative (in a true POP sense0 that is being created elsewhere? I don't know for sure, but in the US, of course, money talks and we're too xenophobic as a rule to do much exploring on our own.
16 - Elvira Black
Christopher:
Point well taken. From my admittedly dated exposure to Euro/Brit pop during the 70s and 80s, I know we Americans are missing out big time. And as far as non-Western cultures, perhaps our influence does not reach quite as far as we might imagine it would--though the former Soviet Union, I think, would be one obvious example of where it has taken off in a huge (?) way.
17 - J. P. Spencer
Elvira,
You're talking to someone with a row of XTC albums in his collection. I always thought of "The Man Who Sailed Around His Soul" as a missing James Bond theme song, but I'll look for Blades' interpretation.
With regard to integration of non-Anglo sounds, the musician most missed with regard to bringing the sounds of other cultures to America is Dizzy Gillespie. To the day he died, he was looking for other sounds to integrate into American music. If there is any acceptance of Latin and West African flavorings at all in American music, a lot of that can be traced back to Dizzy Gillespie. Sadly, this kind of musical adventurism is lacking in most quarters of the Anglocentric music world.
And after all these years, it's still hard to top Santana's first three albums for palatable latin-tinged rock.
18 - Elvira Black
J.P.:
Ah, so refeshing to hear from someone who knows more of XTC than the few pseudo "hits" they had over here (Dear God, etc).
The CD in question is called "Testimonial Dinner." It may be hard to find, not sure. It is terrific stuff--many renowned artists paying musical homage in very innovative ways. Well worth a listen, IMHO.
Didn't realize about Dizzy Gillespie, but as you say, sometimes the influence of a true "original" only later emerges in a trickle down fashion. Often the very first musicians to "invent" a new trend are never given their due. Rather, those who follow and are inspired by them--and manage to refine the influence and somehow make it more commercial or otherwise "palatable"--are given kudos. And sometimes the originators may just be too ahead of their time, alas. But that is their contribution--to be too avant garde to be noticed by the "mob," but only by those who have the wherewithal to truly listen and take note.
Ah, yes, Santana--how in the world could I forget them?
19 - zingzing
right now i'm listening to some album currated by someone named "senor coconut," who is actually a german guy.
it's made up of latin club tunes, and has the various genres listed after each track: cumbia tropical, funk, cubiaton, cumbia villera, cumbia lunatica, reggaeton, aciton... (often, the genre has more to do with where you come from, as in the ghetto or the villa, rather than any actual musical quality)...
and the country where the track comes from: argentina, brazil, chile, puerto rico, panama...
it's this incredibly strange, cheap sounding music that takes from cultures all over the world... jamaican raggae saddles up with american hip hop, cuban son, german polka, caribbean tropical, miami bass, black funk, avant-garde, african tambor drums, gaita flutes, house, gangsta rap, dub, bollywood, opera, tv themes, noise collage, and various hispanic roots musics...
it's never blended too well, so it doesn't become sting's boring vanilla world, and the various elements seem to be placed side by side just to show how different they are. beats often won't match the time signatures of other samples. it's fascinating shit.
20 - zingzing
oh yeah, xtc rocks. the last balloon makes me cry. sometimes.
21 - Guppusmaximus
Elvira,
Very true... Unfortunately, I can only bring a true knowledge from the Metal aspect. Atheist's"Elements" was one of those albums of true innovative and creativity but was snubbed by the metal community. It was drenched in Latin rythymns and a penchant for Ottimar Liebert style leads on the Axe. This album came out in 1993. Hell, even Elvis wanted his career to be more Gospel(JD Sumner,Blackwood Brothers) oriented as well as being influenced by Opera(Mario Lanza) which was unheard of during his reign of pop...Talk about a mix that is how he came to have such a strong brilliant voice. You are correct though, by the time most people figure out where the fusion came from it's usually credited to someone who isn't the originator...
22 - Elvira Black
zingzing:
Yes, fascinating indeed. I know this musical "integration" is happening, but maybe it's almost a political thing in a sense--i.e. the most powerful nations dominate; the less powerful/wealthy ones can't get their "voice" heard as loudly over the huge Brit/American "imperialist" din...lol...
OK, that was a little out there, I know. Or was it?
Dissonant beats (and chords)--love it. "Sting's boring vanilla world"--lol!
23 - Elvira Black
Zingzing:
Oh yeah, XTC (sigh)...I'm old enough to "brag" that I saw them live before Andy Partridge had a nervous breakdown and stopped touring. Hey, that's pretty darn old!
Thing is, they're a prime example of the kind of original yet extremely "accessible" pop musicians that never have--and never will--have a chance in hell of breaking through here. I know they've had record company nightmares, but it's a damn shame nonetheless. I tried to contact their current (?) "record company recently to see about doing an online piece (I'd done an XTC/Partridge feature/interview years ago for a NYC paper via this same record label) but no go--no response--nada. Yeah, it's like that.
24 - Elvira Black
Gruppusmaximus:
Yes, I think I feel your frustration (only say I think 'cause I haven't heard the music you refer to). But on the other hand, sometimes when bands that have a cult (or lower) status make it big, the inevitable sell out occurs and then they're not hungry anymore and, well, you know....
25 - Triniman
There's also a lot of great music coming out of Canada these days. Check out Stars' Set Yourself On Fire, for starters. I just picked up the recent album by Montreal's Belle Orchestra, who are contemporaries of The Arcade Fire. On the jazz side, there's no one more exciting that Michael Kaeshammer. He's such a brilliant and entertaining pianist that he could be the biggest jazz artist in the world, bigger than fellow Canadian Diana Krall.