...yet another attempt to get Mayer-haters forehead veins to throb extra hard
First posted on Mark Is Cranky:…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
...yet another attempt to get Mayer-haters forehead veins to throb extra hard
First posted on Mark Is Cranky:…
Article comments
26 - DJRadiohead
Exactly, Eric. Phillip has been trying to convince me forever that John Mayer can really play the guitar. Maybe he can. My response has always been, "So can Yngwie Malmsteen." I ain't listening to Yngwie. Can he play incredibly complex parts at the speed of light? You betcha. Is it worth hearing? Not so much. Complex music can be great music but the fact it is complex probably is not the reason the music is great.
Oh, and that chicken is pretty boss.
27 - Mark Saleski
exactly. by that logic, i should throw out all of my Ramones records.
screw that!
28 - Guppusmaximus
Yes, the Difference is that Yngwie was a pioneer,The Minor scale(classical?) done on Electric Guitar, and John Mayer is still a hack....
"i have played guitar for twenty years and studied jazz improvization for five or six of those years.
i know how music is constructed.
when i listen to music, i do NOT think technically...."
Yes, But, Mark you do have the ability which someone who hasn't studied music does not... Wether you choose to, well, that's your choice.
I've played drums for 20 years, haven't studied jazz improvisation and all I thrive on is listening to complex music....technically.
"Complex music can be great music but the fact it is complex probably is not the reason the music is great."
*Huh?* I beg to differ...Mozart,Bethoven,etc.. Were the greats and were complex. Music that will stand the test of time...The Ramones were complex for their time in one manner...Speed. That's what makes them great! Yngwie was great for his virtuoso combined with his speed.
29 - Mark Saleski
sounds like a circular argument to me.
i'm not choosing to not listen technically, the idea of analyzing a piece of music never enters my mind.
seriously.
30 - Phillip Winn
But DJ, when I say Johnny can really play, I don't mean in a technically-adept way, I mean the boy plays like he can feel. Nobody would ever suggest that he's the fastest, or whatever, but he connects.
Just not on his two pop albums. :-(
31 - Mark Saleski
hey, when the heck is herself gonna chime in here?!
32 - ClubhouseCancer
The idea that only someone who is trained in musical performance or composition is fit to "truly" judge pop music is a load of self-aggrandising crap.
"Well, of course you don't get Feldsberg Flozzlewood, but believe me, if you played oboe you'd understand how awesome he is."
33 - Mary K. Williams
Who is John Mayer? : )~
34 - Guppusmaximus
"i have played guitar for twenty years and studied jazz improvization for five or six of those years."
And you never wanted to figure out how someone plays a song? I'm not criticizing you Mark... It's just that for me, as a drummer, analyzing the work of my idols is pure enjoyment. Even the work of guitarists,bassists,vocalists...To me, that is one of the major parts of music. When a musical instrument becomes an extension of your soul then you truly can appreciate when someone else has that passion...
I would've respected John Mayer if he came out with his trio first instead of that worthless pop crap...
35 - Mark Saleski
sure, i've wanted to figure out how to play a song...and only then do i start deconstructing it into its musical parts (scales, modes, etc....)
when listening this never happens.
as far as it being 'worthless pop crap', i enjoyed it immensely on the way to work, and then again after i got here.
36 - Eric Olsen
use of the term "pop" dismissively says much more about the speaker than the music
37 - Phillip Winn
Oh, DJ, I think you got told!
38 - DJRadiohead
Got told? Got told what?
I think this battle got taken over by Guppusmaximus and Saleski. I'm waiting for someone to come back at me.
Oh... as to Yngwie v Mayer. I think they're both wanks. Malmsteen equates speed playing with music. Mayer... well... I have heard him in interviews and he sounds like he's going to try and fuse SRV with Hendrix. He might be good at it. I think I should wait to speak to that until I've heard his playing. At this point, I have only heard his pop crap.
And I agree with EO. Pop music and bad music don't have to be synonymous. They just are too often.
39 - Guppusmaximus
I think I should've made myself alittle more clear... I don't think Pop is crap.I do feel that people don't know what pop is anymore and I do agree that alot of music nowadays in that catagory is crap including John Mayer's attempt...
Well, Mark, I guess I will agree to disagree...
Analyzing music is an important part to understanding it. I still appreciate music for what it is but I am grateful that I have gained a trained ear to be able to sort through alot of garbage...(Especially John Mayer)
As for Yngwie vs. Mayer...(LOL) Wether you consider speed an actual talent or not,Mr. Malmsteen is still light years ahead in his skill than Mr. Mayer, even if you slowed him down.
Though, I would like to see John Mayer pull off any of either SRV or Hendrix's work (with feeling..lol) before I could ever fathom him fusing those 2 styles together...*Smirk*
Again, his attempt at this fusion prior to his shallow releases would've given him more credibility as a musician instead of a pop star... (I just don't think he can pull it off)
40 - Eric Olsen
Gup, I agree there is nothing wrong with approaching music analytically, or from any other angle/door. That is among its many wonders
41 - Mark Saleski
eo sez: use of the term "pop" dismissively says much more about the speaker than the music
this is exactly right.
42 - Eric Olsen
thanks Mark
Pop is certainly a legit descriptive term, although it is so broad as to be almost meaningless in some contexts, but when one uses "pop" to mean "unworthy" or "illegitimate" it becomes reflexive
43 - Lisa McKay
What Guppusmaximus is getting at in comment #39 is relevant not just to music but to pretty much every other art form as well. Art is made up of two components, the skill part, which consists of mastery of one's tools, and the art part, which is much harder to define, much more subjective, and much more likely to engender disagreement among observers. I think the important point is that technical mastery by itself does not make art - there are people in every field of artistic endeavor who are technically skilled but devoid of emotional content, and artists who might not be the best technically who can knock you flat on your ass with an emotional punch. An artist who can deliver the emotional content can afford to be less proficient technically than the performing genius who has skill but little else to offer.
44 - Phillip Winn
Sorry, DJ, I guess it was Guppus that got told. I should read more carefully. :-)
45 - Guppusmaximus
Hey DJ,
Do you think philip is out of his league here? Is that why he is acting like a 7y/o instigator?
Lisa,
Very nice obvservation... Though I do feel that the greats had both Mastery and soul.
If you choose to master your tools without any reflection on your soul,meaning,if you play music just to master the job and don't personalize it, well, it most definately will sound that way. In my honest opinion.... I feel any great musicians were the ones who had to master their instrument in order to communicate their feelings and I think when you don't have any experience playing an instrument you will never truely understand any piece of work. It's the same thing as learning a new language and once you can communicate your emotions flawlessly that's when everything falls into place.
Eric,
I understand where you are coming from and you always make excellent points.
Music isn't a wonder or mystery to me anymore because it's always a relationship between people. In fact, to say John Mayer is the reason why his music is good(not to me)would be turning a blind eye to the people who help him create that music unless it's a solo piece... It's about finding the right people to connect with. When you find people who have the mastery to communicate, it actually pushes you to futher develop your own skills. That's the truest love of music and when a band can communicate a single emotion or many emotions with accuracy than that transcends time... I guess when I say that I analyze music, it really means that I am actually listening and hearing what the composer(s) communicating and I find that alot of mainstream artists exploit many emotions without accuracy just to "cash in"....
46 - DJRadiohead
I think Phillip and Mark are instigators, but I doubt either of them are 7 years old anymore. =)
I think Lisa hits this one on the head in relation to the art and the craft of musicianship (or other artistic endeavors). Emotionally, Mayer leaves me flat. Sonically he does, too. From a technical standpoint I am not an expert but rather an informed amateur. I can't play a lick but I love guitar music and have listened to a lot so I think to a small extent I can differentiate between the technically good and technically bad- again, to some extent. I haven't gotten to hear Mayer let loose on guitar yet... I do plan on hearing his trio out of curiosity and I guess now a sense of fairness after having blasted the guy as often as I have.
And I agree again about pop. Pop at its best is amazing and wonderful and there is such a a thing as pop at its best. It is unfortunate due to the current state of music that pop has now become a derogatory term. It does not have to be.
47 - Mark Saleski
somewhat ironically, i wrote something a while back that attempts to describe my reactions to music as i listen.
it was called Musical Resonance.
ironic, a little, because it used a Rush song as an example. Rush being a band that fans tend to gush over because of the musical complexity (which i don't really give a hoot about).
48 - Phillip Winn
Guppus, in fact, it was John Mayer working solo (singing, songwriting, and playing) that convinced me to check out his albums. He definitely works with some great musicians when touring and when featured on their albums, but a decent portion of his second album was also him, by himself, layering tracks on a Mac.