As a former Blondie business associate, I guess I get the last laugh after all. You see the music business really blew it when it came to Debbie and cohorts, and a slew of record honchos — who should have known better — ended up looking rather pathetic when the world embraced the band.
"She looks great, but the band sucks and can't play to save themselves," the record honcho know-it-all/know-nothings whispered back in ‘76. Just goes to confirm my theory that A&R people should not be older than 17 when it comes to evaluating young rock ‘n’ roll — and that’s what Blondie was about – young, '70's new wave r'n'r. You can’t sell 60+ million records and suck. Obviously someone loved 'em big-time. Such an accomplishment cannot be ignored and the Hall's acknowledgement and induction of the band was appropriate, contrary to what some naysayers are currently moaning and foaming at the mouth over.
That said, I usually try not to respond to any controversy surrounding any of the artists I’ve worked with in past years — and I’ve had my share of controversy with artists from my days at Cameo-Parkway and Buddah Records in the late-‘60s, to the likes of the New York Dolls, Suicide, Richard Hell, Ramones, John Cale, and Blondie in the '70s — but there are a few things I’d like to say and I’ll cite the Velvet Underground’s membership in the Hall to make my point.
Question: Does VU belong in the Hall? Some say they were tres influential. To some they were but to me they were pretentious. I much prefer someone like Bob Dylan, or the Yardbirds, or Van Morrison — not a bunch of Andy Warhol-schooled manic-depressives — but I still can agree with their inclusion because I think inclusion should be determined by a combination of factors like a)Commerce – an artist’s amazing sales accomplishments over an extended period of time, or b) Artistry – an artist’s high skills, or virtuosity, or c) Influence – an artist’s musical or social impact on others.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Russ Van Rooy
Or Television ! Why not Television ? They really started it all as far as the CBGBs scene goes - and they could play their instruments unlike most of the other bands cited. If it's pure musical influence were talking about (not dollars) , Television was way influential. Dee Dee Ramone actually auditioned to be their bass player at one point. David Byrne used to watch them before the Talking Heads ever played a gig. Malcom McLaren took their look ( ripped t-shirts et al, spikey hair ) to England with him and bestowed it upon the Pistols. And then there is that angular guitar sound so often associated with that other art-pop-rock band Gang of Four. Who pioneered it ? Tom Verlaine of course !
2 - Sean
I hate the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The idea that Jann Wenner and his cohorts claim to bestow some stamp of greatness on bands is absurd. The idea that James Taylor and Billy Joel are great rock and rollers beggars belief and yet they have been enshrined, while Iggy and the NY DOlls and the MC5 have gotten the shaft.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame resides in the heart of every kid who truly hears the music and loves the music and makes it the organizing principle of his or her life. My hope was that the bands I loved as akid (The Ramones, The Clash, the Pretenders) would recognise this place for the sham that it is and refuse to accept their inductions. So far, I have not been lucky. Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner.
3 - Eric Olsen
Great take Marty, thanks! I agree about Iggy, the Dolls, and Television, and how in the name of Lenny Kaye can you keep Patti Smith out?
4 - Sean
Television were awesome and highly influential. Not only did the Gang of Four steal those guitar lines, I think the Edge and Bono spent a lot of long nights listening to Marquee Moon.
But I have to stick with my original position that the place is a sham and should not exist. If it was a museum stuffed with artifacts (like the Stax Museum in Memphis) I'd have no real objection, but it has pretensions of grandeur. What are the criteria for inclusion? Who are the nominators? Who are the voters? What were they thinking when they voted for Billy Joel, but not Iggy Pop? What were they thinking when they voted for James Taylor, but not the New York Dolls? How in thename of god does Jackson Browne qualify for any hall of fame?
5 - Michael J. West
I hate the very idea of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. It's exactly the opposite of what rock & roll is supposed to be, which is social upheaval and confrontation. A "Hall of Fame" for such a thing is really just a way of de-fanging it.
6 - Sean
In addition to my already posted comments, I would like to adopt Michael J. West's comment as my own. He is exactly right.
7 - mt
Russ Van Rooy -- yes, Television did start it all at CBGB, thanks to the late Terry Ork. They are surely deserving. Miles Davis? I wonder who came up with that beauty? No doubt he was a great jazz musician but this is the ROCK 'N' ROLL HALL OF FAME -- not the JAZZ ROCK FUSION HALL OF FAME!
8 - Christopher Rose
#5 ditto
9 - mt
Christopher Rose & Michael J. West -- I agree that r 'n' roll is about social upheaval and confrontation but it is also about entertainment and information directed to young people. It's supposed to be presented to them in their very own language. Artists suffer a great deal to get to that place of popularity and any recognition is welcomed by them. Unfortunately it becomes a greedy self - serving game by those in the power positions and loses its purity.
10 - Michael J. West
Miles Davis? I wonder who came up with that beauty? No doubt he was a great jazz musician but this is the ROCK 'N' ROLL HALL OF FAME -- not the JAZZ ROCK FUSION HALL OF FAME!
MT--While I stand by my distaste for anybody being in the HOF, I'll play devil's advocate and say that Miles has as much place there as anybody does. Fusing jazz with rock opened tremendous new horizons for rock as well as jazz...why shouldn't Miles receive credit for that on both sides of the spectrum?
11 - Christopher Rose
MT: True, but it's also about being wild and free and not controlled by the man. The RNRHOF is the man!
12 - mt
Michael --an argument can be made for Miles but I think there are so many other rockers that should have been considered before him. Can you cite some examples of the new horizons you believe he opened for rock?
13 - Michael J. West
Can you cite some examples of the new horizons you believe he opened for rock?
Sure!
* Jazz-rock itself, of course, making possible the music of Blood Sweat and Tears, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Steely Dan, among many others continuing all the way up to, for example, Primus.
* Whole avenues of Prog Rock, including sidelong improvisations and use of jazz instruments in rock (ref. Jethro Tull, '70s King Crimson, and at least four Frank Zappa albums)
* Textural approaches to funk that were adapted by Funkadelic, late Sly & the Family Stone, Stevie Wonder, the Meters, and Prince
* Polyrhythmic ideas that form the basis of much hip-hop and electronic dance music
* Areas of the avant-garde that are still being explored: Arto Lindsay, Glenn Branca, Fred Frith, the Residents, etc.
14 - mt
Good examples but I don't know if I would consider Prince, Sly, Stevie Wonder, and Meters rock. I would consider them more influenced by r 'n ' b and blues even though they incorporated some jazz lines in their music. Do polyrhythmic ideas more suited to hip hop and electronic dance music really fall into rock category? You have made a good point, though. It's a good argument.
15 - Lumpy
There are so many deserving bands from so many different eras, that it's impossible to include them all immediately (my understanding is that only a limited number of artists are inducted each year). Inductees need to satisfy a wide range of music fans.
I think the Dolls and the Stooges will make it in, eventually.
I also agree that this is kind of a dubious honor, like other awards such as the Grammys. Anybody remember when the Starland Vocal Band won the Grammy for Best New Artist or when Jethro Tull won a Grammy for best "Metal" album?
The music is what matters the most...
16 - Barry Stoller
"Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner."
What's left of my teenage idealism wishes for just that but I doubt Lydon is up to the job. Even RS bestowed positive reviews upon PiL when it counted.
The Rock & Roll hall of Fame and, certainly, Wenner is Stalinist to the rotten core but the sad fact remains: many inductees are at the end of their rope when their moment comes and induction is a grand opportunity to move a greatest hits package.
The day they posthumously induct Terry Knight is the day my manuscript goes into the fireplace. I'm resting easy on that one.
Speaking of flames, Wenner will burn in hell eventually but the Devil won't have eternal Billy Joel albums to use as Wenner's punishment, he'll have to come up with something even more extreme; scary thought, that.
17 - mt
The manner in which induction is being determined is obviously suspect and perhaps even thoughtless but, as unjust and political as it may be, all artists -- and I side on their part -- would want to be included. The reasons why are obvious, aren't they? Wouldn't you want the recognition? The trip to the top is torturous. Someone telling you that you were the greatest is the reward for all the scars you bear. The music biz is a rough, corrupt game. So what else is new? And, Barry, Wenner's punishment will be having to listen to Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits through headphones at top volume 24 hours a day for all eternity.
18 - Sean
"The reasons why are obvious, aren't they? Wouldn't you want the recognition?"
In all honesty, the reasons for wanting the recognition of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fmae are not that obvious to me. The place is obviously a joke. Any institution which honors Billy Joel, Jackson Browne, and James Taylor as great rock and rollers obviously has no concept as to what rock and roll is. If James Taylor is an inductee, why shouldn't Barry Manilow be in there? Barry had at least as many hits as James Taylor, and Barry did not have James Taylor's pretensions to artistry. As far as I am concerned, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is indefensible, and a little part of me dies every time one of my music heroes walks on the stage to accept the award.
"'Hopefully, when his name is called, Johnny Rotten will take a dump on the stage and fling his fecal matter at Jann Wenner.'
What's left of my teenage idealism wishes for just that but I doubt Lydon is up to the job. Even RS bestowed positive reviews upon PiL when it counted."
You are right, but let me hold on to my hope for a little while longer.
19 - mt
"If James Taylor is an inductee, why shouldn't Barry Manilow be in there?"
Sean -- because Barry Manilow is not a rock and roll artist. That's why! Manilow is pure corn. Taylor at least connected to kids when he was young his first time around. I'm not defending his inclusion but compared to Manilow he represents rock far beyond what Manilow ever will. No doubt there are many that've been inducted that are a puzzlement but there are also many that deserve the recognition bestoyed upon them. The HOF choices will never satisfy everyone.
20 - Sean
"because Barry Manilow is not a rock and roll artist."
Neither is James Taylor. Full stop. Period.
The place is a sham, and the 'recognition' bestowed upon artists is dubious. Did the Clash become a better band when they were inducted? Are the Stooges no good because they have been passed over? I cannot understand why anyone would consider induction into this joke an honor. Like I said before, when someone whose music I love takes the stage and says thanks for the honor, a pice of me dies.
21 - Sean
If they are not already eligible, within a few years Black Flag and Minor Threat will be eligible, followed by Fugazi. If they are nominated, I am fairly certain they will say 'piss off' though I doubt Jann will allow them to be nominated.
22 - Sean
Marty, you have written that no A&R guy should be over 17 years old (which is a statement I completeky agrre with and which I have shamelessly stolen from you in conversations with friends). Show me a 17 year old who is cool enough to be an A & R guy, and I'll show you an 17 year old who thinks the RNRHOF is full of shit.
23 - Sean
And Marty, for the record, let me say that despite our disagreement here, I have nothing but the highest respect for you and your work. It is because of your efforts that a Jersey Kid got to hear Suicide and Richard Hell and the Fleshtones before he crossed the Hudson River for the first time on his own. In fact, should you be inducted to the RNRHOF, I will maintain radio silence on my criticisms of the place.
24 - Christopher Rose
sorry mt, total respect to your heritage and all, but I'd rather have to listen to Manilow forever than James Taylor for a day.
25 - mt
Sean - James Taylor today is not the same James Taylor of yesteryear. Artists evolve and, as the years set in, some mellow out. Back then he was a serious junkie and symbol of the disenfranchised. You hadda be there to appreciate what he implied back in the day.
Let me ask you this -- have you witnessed any artist turning down induction in the Hall, or afterwards speaking poorly about it? I don't think so. My comments about the HOF have nothing to do with me liking it, or not. I'm simply saying each artist inducted is thrilled and it has nothing to do with making them a better musician.
And, thank you for your kind words. I seriously doubt I will ever be inducted in the HOF but I do want to see the Dolls get in. That would be satisfying to me because of all the b.s.the record biz put us through. That would constitute another last laugh for me. And, should that happen, they would be the 4th artist I worked with that is in the HOF - Ramones, Blondie, Van Morrison are the others -- and I am proud of it.
Christopher -- to each his own. I don't understand how you could feel that way but I respect your opinion. That's what it is all about -- opinion.