A word of warning: the DualDisc version of Ben Folds' Songs For Silverman is copy-protected and WILL NOT play in your computer. Not to show off, but I am pretty computer-savvy and have a brand new, extremely high quality CD/DVD rewritable drive that has been reviewed as one of the better drives for ripping copy-protected discs and it won't even read the stereo-audio side of the DualDisc. I am more than pissed - I'm so mad that not only will this disc be returned immediately, I may not choose to replace it with the more expensive, separate CD and DVD "deluxe" edition. I know that it's not fair to blame the artist for a label-directed decision, but the impact must be made somewhere. Unfortunately, my only visible, viable target is the artist, who will lose my money and, hopefully, the money of any other faithful buyers who decide that ENOUGH IS GODDAMN ENOUGH.
The literature included with the disc, on a small bright-red flyer, extols the many wonderful virtues of this new technology. Oooh, you can have video on one side for your DVD player and stereo audio on the other for your CD player. Except, down in the corner is a warning that states " The audio side of this disc does not conform to CD specifications and therefore not all DVD and CD players will play the audio side of the disc." When I first read that, moments after opening the package, I assumed that they meant older units would choke on the disc, which, while not fair, could reasonably be expected. And it did work in my car's in-dash Pioneer CD player - a location that has, generally, proven to be the first point at which I find fails any of the very few copy-protected discs I've managed to get suckered into buying. It worked - and I was temporarily happy. When I arrived back at work, I popped the disc into my computer's CDROM drive and listened to it grind away with uncomfortable sounds. After a few minutes of grinding, my computer acted as if nothing had changed - nothing viable was in the drive. I was obviously miffed, but figured it was a crappy drive and it would work fine at home. And then it didn't.
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Gina
Dual Discs seem to becoming more and more popular these days. It's good to know that it doesn't always work though, so you know what you're buying beforehand.
2 - Al Barger
Close save. I almost actually spent money on this Ben Folds album tonight at Best Buy. I'll just download a clean set of mp3s off the net now instead, and avoid the noid. Damned if I'll pay out the extortionate price of a commercial CD just to get one that purposely is made not to work.
What are these stupid sonsabitches even thinking?
3 - Temple Stark
Look does it work? Can you hear it? And why do you need to copy a DVD anyway?
Now on the dual disc I got (review copy) the audio side didn't work but the DVD side did - and luckily it had surround sound versions of all the songs.
But I didn't even think of getting all my friends to throw a hissy fit and return DVDs - even if they work. That's childish.
It's not you, it's everyone. Who needs to copy a commercial DVD?
4 - Joel Caris
Temple, I don't believe he has any interest in wanting to copy a DVD, he just wants to be able to listen to the music that he bought the way he wants.
I received a review copy of a CD awhile back that I could not rip to MP3 and that I could only listen to on the computer by listening to digital files already on the disk--that were pretty low quality. It was very frustrating and annoying. Now, it was a review CD, so I had no reason to complain--I got the thing free, after all. But if I had purchased that, I would be pissed off and damn well would return it. One of the major ways I listen to music is in MP3 format on my computer, mixed into other playlists, maybe burned onto a CD with other songs. I also want to make backup copies for my car. These copy protection schemes often stop me from doing all those legitimate things, which are just other ways that I prefer to enjoy the music I paid for.
So yeah, these things annoy the hell out of me. So I'm wondering, now, are all Dual Discs like this or was this just the Ben Folds Five CD? If they all are, then that sucks, because I have a feeling sooner or later, there's going to be an album I really want released only in DualDisc format.
5 - Bill Kempin
I played Ben's new DualDisc album on my Dell computer and was able to burn cuts onto my hard drive and iPod. It won't play on a drive that only plays CDs, but it will play on a drive that plays DVDs and CDs.
6 - folds
I bought this disc as was able to rip it to MP3s with no problem. They are on my IPOD now.
I agree that the copy protection is total crap and not an effective way to address the issues they are trying to address. Just thought I would let you know that I was able to do it...
7 - Lisa McKay
I am, at the moment, listening to the new Springsteen disc on my three-year-old computer at work (it's only a CD drive, not a CD-DVD drive, by the way). I can rip the tracks using iTunes with no problem. It played this morning on the way to work in the five-year-old player in my car. It sounds like this format is unpredictable, if anything, which isn't a good thing.
8 - Tom Johnson
Temple, please re-read my post: I want to listen to the AUDIO disc wherever I want. I PAID for the disc, I have a right to listen to it as I please. If I don't have a surround sound system, how exactly would I take advantage of that, since that does seem to work in your case? And, more importantly, why should I have to do that?
Copying commercial DVDs is pretty easy, by the way. I routinely rip the audio from concert DVDs to listen to (because I will watch a DVD only once in a while, but I will LISTEN many times.)
I have seen numerous mixed reports on the usability of these discs. Some people are able to rip from them, some are not. The fact that I have a BRAND NEW CD/DVD writer - literally not two months old - that cannot rip from the audio portion of the disc (and I did my research - it is well-reviewed by folks who know how to test these drives for the copy-protected disc rippability) should send up a signal flare: the labels, as we've been shown time and time again, are not interested in keeping fans happy. They are only concerned about profits. How do you make an impact to someone that only cares about profits? Take away their profits by returning these discs, as I will be doing today.
And just to show how futile this is, I was able to track down mp3s last night for the album. Easily. So back this purposely defective disc goes and I'll fork out an extra few bucks for the deluxe separate CD and DVD so that I can still legally use the mp3s I found. And don't think that it's a coincidence that Sony has packaged the standard CD with a standard DVD in a more expensive package. They know the DualDisc format has problems, but it does thwart copying in many cases and so suits their needs, but they are so generously providing a more expensive "alternative" with standard CD audio. It's a test, I suppose - how good of a person am I? Will I upgrade to the better option to retain my rights? Yep, I will, and I know I'm that one sucker that will out of 100 that will not.
9 - SFC SKI
I agree, if I buy a CD and it won't play in whatever I want to play it on, it gets returned ASAP.
10 - The Theory
I think that the older your technology, the more likely it is that the copy proctection software will not be an issue.
I've got an older mac that wouldn't know copy protection software if it hit it in the face. Of course, since it is an older mac on dialup it would also take it three weeks to try and illegally distribute the album online.
Some of the copy protection software (specifically with pre-releases, not with bought albums) skip on my walkman cd player (which is also my car cd player) so the obvious solution is just to make a copy of the album and use the CDR to listen to. Ironic, but it works.
11 - JR
So apparently there's even a deluxe edition of Songs For Silverman which comes with a bonus disc, Songs For Goldfish. What's up with that?
12 - Tom Johnson
Actually, that's only a combo-deal through Folds' site. You get the same package you would get in the stores (DualDisc or the CD/DVD in a book, plus Goldfish in a separate case.) You can also purchase the disc separately for $9.98, which is what I did.
13 - sydney
I'm against copyright protection because I don;t wnat to have to pay 23$ for every 11 songs I listen too. Music is outrageouly expensive these days so I copy it for free.
The bands I really dig, I buy the album or go see them when the tour. I see about 2 bands live a month and thats it for my music expenses. Most bands prefer it that way anyway.
In any case, just wanted to clear the air and let some peopel know that we don't have to feel liek were stealing when we download/upload music.
14 - sydney
I'm against copyright protection because I don;t wnat to have to pay 23$ for every 11 songs I listen too. Music is outrageouly expensive these days so I copy it for free.
The bands I really dig, I buy the album or go see them when the tour. I see about 2 bands live a month and thats it for my music expenses. Most bands prefer it that way anyway.
In any case, just wanted to clear the air and let some peopel know that we don't have to feel liek were stealing when we download/upload music.
15 - Tom Johnson
I understand your grief, Sydney - I think most music fans do, in fact. The prices many stores are charging is ridiculous. The problem is that you CAN find lower prices - they ARE out there if you look for them. Buy online if your local stores are too expensive. Amazon.com usually has decent deals, especially if you buy multiple items, but there are also sites like Cheap CDs that undercut them most of the time (but selection is often more limited and they are prone to selling out quickly.)
I'm entirely for downloading things to check out, see if you actually like the music. But if you decide you like it, you owe it to the artist to go buy the album and support them for the hard work they went through to make that music for you.
16 - robert james
I tried to rip the new Ben Folds with my new dell system and couldn't get the disc to read. It didn't matter if I used music match or i tunes. Disc is going back to the store. I've already fired off a blast at Sony BMG, a lot of good that will do me.
I won't buy another.
17 - Temple Stark
And Tom all I asked was why you want a copy of a DVD? What possible need other than giving it away to someone else. I didn't talk about rights or ease of doing so. I appreciate you already bought it. We seem to agree on most parts of this dscussion.
My surround sound crap was just an example. A confusing one, apparently.
And Sydney - a $1 a song (iTunes) is too expensive? I understand people's needs for thousands and thousands of songs - but that doesn't mean people aren't losing money.
Of course, it's not going to do you any good Robert - "Please sirs and / or madams, can you make it easier for me to steal your music?"
18 - Tom Johnson
Temple, you are missing the entire point of my post: I want to rip the AUDIO disc - the one that is supposed to be a CD, you know, the kind of things that get played in CD players - so that I can put it on my Ipod. I really don't get how this is so hard to understand. I never, ever, not once, never never . . . wait for it . . . never mentioned wanting to rip the DVD.
And, by the way, yes, just like ripping CDs, there are legitimate reasons to rip a DVD - to make a copy that the kids can't ruin, that's a pretty common one I hear parents do quite often with those expensive kids' DVDs. And you can also rip the audio from, for example, concert DVDs, which I routinely do because I have very little time to repeatedly watch a DVD, but I can listen pretty much anywhere I want to.
Anyone else checking these comments, read my update: the "special package" edition contains a Redbook standard CD which even bears the offical Compact Disc Audio logo (which cannot be used unless it truly conforms to Redbook standards.) It rips with ease.
19 - matt
My experience:
The disc won't play after the second time you try reading it from the CD/DVD-ROM. This leads me to believe there is a bit of software it installs or it messes around with some hidden setting so it won't be recognized.
Since I had already used up my chance to rip from my main PC, I used CDex and my backup PC (with a 6 year old CD-ROM) to rip the tracks to mp3.
Also, I was curious and found that it works fine on my linux box. So what ever copy protection it uses is Window's only. Don't know about the Mac.
20 - Tom Johnson
Nope, not true, Matt - nothing is being installed on MY computers, that's for sure. I disabled autorun long ago (and so should every other computer user.)
It is hit and miss - one drive will work, one won't. It appears that it depends on how strictly it adheres to the Redbook standards. If it adheres closely, as all CD players/drives really should, then it will likely not read this disc. If it plays fast and loose with the rules, as some cheaper units do, it may (repeat, may) work.
The issue that I have found from doing a lot of research on this problem this week is that it may be the thickness of the plastic that is causing all the problems. The specs for CDs are pretty specific about how thick the plastic must be (because the laser must account for a certain amount of loss due to the material it is passing through.) When that gets messed with, things go wrong.
It would be nice if they'd stop messing with this stuff - CDs should be CDs, DVDs should be DVDs, and never the twain should meet. I'd be very curious to see what the return-rate is on all the DualDiscs Sony is flooding the market with lately.
21 - Temple Stark
You're right Tom, I missed that it was the Audio disc that you were talking about. Dumb. Dumb me. Sorry.
Believe me. I know its easier than spittting to download any music for free from P2P like LimeWire and Kaaza and ????. I think that's the scary point I'm trying to make and which you also made - pay the musicians ya freeloaders.
Now there's the whole other side that established musicians make almost more money touring than they do with their albums.
But yeah, audio - sorry.
Aren't Dualdiscs jut the latest marketing garbage? I'm sure they're fun but they used to be known as enhanced CDS. I've got them ffom the mid-1990s.
22 - mrbenning
The dualdisc kind of scares me. I have a tendency to f*^ck up my albums already without having two potentially destructive sides to worry about.
23 - John C. Wallace
At the risk of being unnoticed, I just purchased this fine album today, as well as Nine Inch Nails' "The Downward Spiral", both on DualDisc, and had no problem ripping either into MP3 format.
24 - Tom Johnson
Well, that's good, John. (And you didn't go unnoticed!) Some people are lucky enough to be able to rip the discs while others are not - it's completely hit and miss, but it does seem that newer slot-loading Mac owners are SOL when it comes to DualDiscs. And that's exactly why this format cannot be allowed to continue - the product needs to work in current technology if it's going to parade itself around as compatible with current-technology. A tiny warning on the disc is not good enough - especially not when they don't offer an alternative (as Bruce Springsteen fans know by now, there's no non-DualDisc version of his latest album available. So it's either buy it or go without . . . or steal it off the internet.) It's also not acceptable that the "warning" makes it sound like a small number of outdated CD players and computers would not be able to play them, and this is patently FALSE - it's the newer, higher-end equipment that is having the problem. It's simply unacceptable, and until people stop buying these BS discs, the labels are going to continue putting them out - it suits them just fine if you can't rip it. That's what they're hoping, anyway.
25 - dudehead
In reply to the comments earlier about other dualdiscs besides Ben Folds, The Offspring Greatest Hits also will not be read on my Mac. Same crappy problem.