Back in the mid-seventies — years before guys like Tom Petty and John Mellencamp came into their own — the discerning rock fan basically had two choices concerning state of the art working class rock music.
And that's what we called it back then. It wasn't "heartland rock" or anything of the sort.
Years before it splintered off into everything from the Americana "genre" of everybody from Mellencamp to Wilco, to the more redneck sensibilities best embodied today by people like Toby Keith, we simply called it what it really was.
Back then we called it working class rock and roll. Pure and simple.
The kind played in some backwoods joint where the only thing left between you and that girl perched next to the jukebox was whether you chose to use that dime to play someone like Bruce Springsteen or someone like Bob Seger.
Because back then at least, those were pretty much the two guys.
Both were guys who celebrated the American working stiff like nobody else back then. But around the eighties, something strange happened. The diehard rockers drifted more to Springsteen — especially around the time of Born In The USA -- while the folks who would much later embrace the "new country" of today went straight for Seger.
And why not?
Where Springsteen was still fine-tuning his vision of working class America on albums like Born In The USA with what would years later prove to be a much more political vision, Seger was already peppering his own Detroit working class roots with the mellower feel of albums like Against The Wind.
Much as I love Springsteen, I think at least in this respect Seger better understood the core values of his audience. A whole lot better actually. Seger met these folks where they actually lived.
Where Bruce began his big-time recording career bringing the street operas of the New Jersey shore to life, and only later shifted his vision to the more rural working man on albums like Darkness On The Edge Of Town and The River, Bob Seger began his own career as the heir apparent to fellow working class Detroit greasehead Mitch Ryder on songs like "Ramblin Gamblin Man." And he has basically never looked back from that singular, if simpler visiion.
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Article comments
1 - Glen Boyd
Thanx for getting this published Lisa.
-Glen
2 - JAKE
I'd probably buy this Bob Seger album, but I already have a Bob Seger album. Nuf said.
3 - Glen Boyd
But is it a GOOD bob Seger album...like this one? Thanx for the comment.
-Glen
4 - Ian Woolstencroft
For an artist to grow he has to try new things. Bob Seger, good though he is, is still making much the same music he was in his 70’s heyday while Springsteen has matured and developed. I’m sure if he wanted to, Bruce could churn out Born in the USA time after time but he doesn’t want to. If that means he looses his connection with the ‘working stiff’ so be it although I’ve seen no evidence of that at any of the gigs I’ve attended.
Seger’s greatest album (in many peoples view anyway) is Night Moves but Bob has gone on record as saying that it was heavily influence by Born to Run.
I’m a Seger fan and will be picking this album up at some point but put simply while I love a lot of his stuff he ain’t the Boss.
5 - Glen Boyd
Ian,
I agree 100% with everything you said here. And I am a far bigger Springsteen fan than I am of Seger. I;ve seen bruce more than 30 times, traveling across the country on more than one occasion to do so, where I have seen seger maybe a total of three times.
The point I was trying to make here (and I'll concede that perhaps I didn't do a very job of it) was to simply to illustrate that Seger has maintained his core fan base by keeping things simple and catering to the working class values, where Bruce has broadened his by expanding his vision. Springsteen's fans tend to be a bit more educated, and will pretty much stick with him no matter where he takes them artistically. Seger's fans on the other hand tend to cling to a simpler world-view, and don't want music that examines the world but rather helps them escape from it.
Not to stereotype anybody, but there was a time you'd find both Seger and Springsteen fans sharing a bar stool. These days you are more likely Bruce's fans in a library.
This may surprise you, but BITUSA ia probably my least favorite Springsteen album. I just think Seger may have read his original base a bit better in keeping it rather simple and straight forward.
Still, as one of those guys you're just as likely to find in a library as a bar myself, I'll take my Devils & Dust right alongside my Born To Run.
I respect Seger though. And I respect the fact that he recognizes just who his audience his.
But you are absolutely right...Bob Seger aint the Boss.
-Glen
6 - Joel Mathis
This Album is Awesome ! Welcome back Bob
You have been Missed !!!!!!
Saint Cloud Florida !!!!!
7 - Glen Boyd
Joel,
I agree its a very good comeback for Mr. Seger. Thanx for the comment.
-Glen
8 - Vern Halen
OK...devil's advocate here. Has Springsteen really matured as an artist? I've got every one of his albums and many stray cuts (like his cover of Warren Zevon's My Ride's Here), but only a few of Seger's, but I think I expected more out of Springsteen than covers of old folk songs. Even The Rising struck me as very middle of the road adult response to 9/11 - I mean, that was the same response most other MOR adults had: a balance of outrage, sorrow, and determination to deal with it. As one of America's premier artists, I had thought he might have brought a different perspective to them whole myriad of issues.
Perhaps it's a self fulfilling prophecy - the artist we expect the least from gives us exactly that in our eyes, whereas the artist we expect great things from gives us likewise.
I know what you're saying, though, about Seger reading his audience, etc. I'm just wondering on some objective level, if Bruce isn't artistically in almost the same place. I'd like to think not, but sometimes I just don't know for sure.
9 - Mark Saleski
the idea of an artist's maturation is a tricky one. some would say that looking back at your roots, both musically and lyricly (Seger sessions, Nebraska/Tom Joad) is a sign of maturation.
oh, and the Seger Sessions is far more than just covers of old folks songs.
10 - Vern Halen
I'm curious to know how you see it as more than covers of folk songs. I read a lot of Traditional & Public Domain credits, & a couple credited to songwriters of the early 60's.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a huge fan, but I don't get this one. And I always thought Bruce's roots were Jersey shoreline & 60's thrash pop a la Gary U.S. Bonds.
11 - Mark Saleski
you can read my part of this roundtable review if you'd like.
to me, the record is a revisitation of the roots of american music. not just the subjects (protest music, etc.) but the music itself. while the songs may have their origins in straight ahead folk, the Seger Sessions version wrapped them in all manner of other musics: blues, jazz, gospel, and other stuff.
12 - Glen Boyd
Vern and Mark,
Thanx guys...I really appreciate the comments.
Basically gotta go with Saleski's assessment on Seeger Sessions. I was skeptical about this record going in (very much so), but was won over specifically because of just how many influences it draws on. The New Orleans and Gospel touches in particular really show a different...and surprisingly cool sounding...side of Springsteen.
Vern, as for your take on The Rising...listen to the songs "Worlds Apart" and "The Fuse". They try to view 9/11 through the perspective of the "other side", which is something I've not heard anyone else do. Lest any right-wing crazies accuse Bruce of sympathizing with the enemy here, this is not the case at all. He simply attempts to cast himself into that role, trying to understand that day from every possible point of view.
Musically, both songs show a new, previously unseen musical side of Bruce as well. Though of the two I'd call "Worlds Apart" the one that actually pulls it off (The Fuse grates on you a little with repeated listens).
Anyway, thanks to both of you for the comments.
(And on a side note, thanks to Connie, Lisa or whichever editor here got the nice "assets" up for this story)
-Glen
13 - Vern Halen
Well, if I'm going to step in the poo....
"I've always had problems with Graceland - is this an example of artistic development or clutching at straws because you've run out of your own ideas? Yes it's done well, but so are the Ladysmith Black Mambazo albums of the same era. Who was riding whom's coattails here, or is it a true collaboration of artists from different cultures?"
I wrote this on a Paul Simon thread the other day here on BC, and I think it in part applies to my difficulty with Springsteen's Seeger Sessions. I don't know of him having any roots in this kind of music. There's nothing wrong with assimilating a style into your own, but it's a gradual thing, just like GROWTH. Suddenly doing Americana (or South Africana) feels more like it's grafted on than it grew from your artistic expression (also: same with Worlds Apart).
I also think of it like this: Bruce single-handedly invented a mythology for himself and his music - if not in his mind, then in the public's mind, for sure. Why switch? I suppose that as an artist, he's free to explore whatever he needs to explore; as a fan, I don't always care for it.
And if you would suggest that Nebraska shows his roots in the folksinger tradition, I would argue that Nebraska is a rock album as hard as any you'd care to name - it's just missing drums and stuff (I hear the wags saying, "Much like Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music!)". Seriously, it's more part of the rock tradition - compare it to the Tom Joad album, and you'll hear the difference. There is no comparison. Same with this one. The weakest track on Nebraska is stronger and more urgent than any track on Tom Joad or Seeger Sessions.
As I said, don't get me wrong - I'm a fan, and not one of those that wants BITUSA cranked out over and over (didn't like that anyways - the outtakes were all better). But for years Bruce had a story to tell - we'd all like to know how it ends. I wish he'd go back & finish or continue that before he felt a need to express his new musical ideas. Kinda like when I was waiting for Stephen King to finish the Dark Tower series before he lost his momentum. Where is the motorcycling punk from Born to Run? Did he preserve his rebellion - did he get the girl? And if any of us met him here in the real world, whould we recognize him - and still be able to say he was one of us?
14 - Mark Saleski
wow, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. given Springsteen's live music past, the soul, blues, gospel, cajun music that informs the Seeger disc is hardly a leap at all.
as far as Nebraska vs. Tom Joad, i don't tend to rate one recording against another. i will say that the intensity of the subject matter gives the Joad songs a power all their own.
15 - DJRadiohead
And don't forget that "Across the Border" is the finest hymn not being sung in churches. Devastating.
16 - Vern Halen
Thanks for your insight, gentlemen. I value your opinions enough to give Tom Joad another couple of spins later this week.
And add to the list of hymns that ought to be sung in church: Lou Reed's "Jesus" from the third Velvets album.
17 - Glen Boyd
Great little thread/discussion you opened up here guys. Thanks so much for doing so. So since were talking about Bruce for the moment...
The thing with Seeger Sessions that really did it for me...and again, I went into this as skeptical as anybody, on the Backstreets message board they practically ran me out of town to the tune of 300+ angry posts for "daring to doubt" before I'd heard the record...it was like I was some kind of "interloper" or something...but anyway...
What really sealed the deal for me with "Seeger" was the sheer joy you could both hear (and see on the bonus DVD), that Bruce had making it. For me, seeing that much exuberance on the faces of everyone involved convinced me of the GENUINENESS of this record. I haven't seen a shit-eating grin like that on Bruce's face in years. He obviously had a ball doing this and the infectiousness spread quickly to the other musicians involved.
You can really hear that on the Seeger Sessions. You can sure as hell hear it in "O Mary Dont You Weep" (speaking of those church records DJR references). And when I did, thats when my own defenses as a more "traditional" (and very skeptical) Bruce fan began to rapidly melt away.
I think "Seeger Sessions" is the record you should give another chance to Vern. With all due respect, Joad is definitely more the acquired taste in my opinion (The "Graceland" if you will). But for me at least the joy of "Seeger Sessions" leaps out at you every bit as much in its own way as something like Born To Run.
Gentleman, I thank you so much for these comments...this really is a great little discussion thats been opened up. I just hope Bob Seger's "peeps" dont get too pissed that the discussion has shifted so completely to Bruce...LOL...
Again great stuff here. Thanx Vern, Mark, DJR, and all...
-Glen
18 - Vern Halen
I was thinking about the Seger/Seeger irony here, but there is a connection, oddly enough. Meybe Bob Seger comes across as keeping to the same format is because he's got past his growth spurt so to speak, and his artistic changes are subtle. I'll admit I haven't paid him much attention since Like a Rock got played to death as a truck commercial, but I think it safe to say that Seger never had aspirations for the grand gesture & the big picture like Springsteen. Neither did Tom Petty or John Mellencamp, yet because these two have kept up with releasing albums of new material (more or less) regularly, their growth has been observed by the listening public. Maybe in time this new album of Bob Seger's will help solidify his place in the pantheon of great American singer / songwriter / rock and rollers. In the meantime, comparision with similar (but not the same) artists like Springsteen will be inevitable, much like Springsteen was compared to Dylan until he created a place for himself on the musical landscape.
I think Bruce would have arrived in a much different place had he chosen altenate tracks for Born in the USA, an album that was financially a huge success but, I believe, was costly to his art. A discussion for another post.
19 - Glen Boyd
Vern,
Actually I think that Mellencamp (and to a lesser degree even Petty) has had some of those artistic aspirations you speak of, though perhaps with not quite the reach. Springsteen has been a stand alone talent pretty much from day one, which is why other so-called "working class" journeyman songwriters have always been compared to him. He pretty much is the standard in the same way Dylan was before him.
Seger has lways gotten respect though (even from Bruce Himself), even if his own artistic path has proven to be a bit narrower.
I like his new album very much actually for what it is. I like it a lot.
Thanx for the comments. Good stuff all the way around as I already noted.
-Glen
20 - dan jacobson
Sat. 12/9/06 12:21 PM
Hi my name is Dan Jacobson and I have been to three concerts this tour and I keep neding more. Unbelievable, went to the first one in Grand Rapids, was able to upgrade to 13th row wow!!! Made it to the Milwaukee show tickets on Ebay $233 each 3rd row heart stopping!!!!! My hometown chicago the other night , had ok seats wanted to get there early to upgrade but got stuck in traffic arrived 40 min after opening act aterted gave up on upgrade but made one last effort ~~~~~5th Row~~~!!!!! after being noticed by the friends and family of Chris Cambbel and Alto Reed, they said that I seemned like a big fan ( which I am The Biggest) gave me a pass to the after party to meet the band!!!! Seger left early because his plane was snowed in (1 foot fell during the night) but met the rest of the band , the people that I have had on my walls since I was 10 years old( I'm 38 now) it was probably the second best day of my life!!! I would love to become part of the seger crew even though I'm a sales executive I would become a roadie in a second for this tour, it was all worth it. I need to see at least 2 more shows I think I have to sell my drums.
i have been able to party with THE SILVER BULLET BAND WOW I HAVE HAD THOSE GUYS ON MY WALL SINCE I WAS 10 YEARS OLD !!! i will be going to more florida detroit ect.... as many as i poss. can this may be the last tour and this is a living legend -- who else has done what he and his band have for that long of time . his biggest competition is himself, so many good songs on every album they all cant get played ) P.s GO BULLS!!
dan jacobson, lake zurich, il
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21 - Jessica
"Maybe in time this new album of Bob Seger's will help solidify his place in the pantheon of great American singer / songwriter / rock and rollers."
I would like to believe, whether it be true or not, that Bob's place among great singer/songwriter rock and rollers is already solid and well recognized. In the midwest, Detroit and Michigan especially....Bob Seger is a living legend. He is idolized by young and old. His concerts here make the news and the front pages of all of the papers. Bob is known by everyone, no matter what genre of music they may choose to listen to, and around here a snide or rude remark about him might as well be cuss words yelled in church on a Sunday morning.
Locally at least, he is a God....just wish the rest of the world would feel the same ;)
22 - Dave in Denver
Sorry, (and I'm not a Bruce fanatic, by any means) but at least Springsteen's evolved somewhat as an artist. The Rising, Lucky Town, Ghost of Tom Joad, yes the Seeger Sessions. Lots of great depth there.
Seger? He's be remaking "Stranger in Town" for 25 years. Every retread getting weaker and weaker. If you're honest with yourself, you'd admit that if this disc didn't have Bob Seger's name on the cover it would get absolutely slammed in the reviews. He gets a respect (deservedly) that a newcomer spouting out this same cliche-ridden drivel wouldn't.
'Nuf said.
23 - HUMPHRY
BOB SEGER IS DAMN NEAR GOD LIKE. I HATE HIS POLITICS BUT NO ONE'S PERFECT.FACE THE PROMISE IS BY FAR THE BEST RECORD IN AT LEAST 15 YEARS (PROBILY LONGER).IT SUCKS THAT CAPITOL RCORDS WONT RELESE HIS FIRST RECORDS,THEY MUST KICK ASS. I OWN A 'SEVEN' LP AND THAT KICKS ASS SO THE REST MUST.RECORDS LIKE 'BACK IN 72'W/ MIDNIGT RIDER ON IT.'RAMBLINE GAMBLIN MAN' FROM 1969.IT S SUCH A SHAME BEING A HUGE SEGER FAN AND HE HAS 6 RECORDS IV NEVER EVEN SEEN. I LOVE THE STONES AND TOM PETTY/CHUCK BERRY/AEROSMITH/CCR/SABBATH/NEIL DIMOND/LYNYRD SKYNYRD