Before there was Kiss, before there was Marilyn Manson, there was Alice Cooper.
Back in his seventies heyday, as the guy who more or less grandfathered the whole concept of rock theatre (or as it is most commonly known, "shock rock"), Alice Cooper was regarded as a genuine threat to the youth of America by just about everyone in a position of authority — from parents to the clergy to the law.
Which of course meant that the kids loved him. During their brief run on top in the mid-seventies, behind such classic albums as School's Out and Billion Dollar Babies the original Alice Cooper band was the biggest concert attraction on the planet. No small wonder, considering that the group's stage shows were grand spectacles that always ended with Alice himself being executed onstage — usually either by hanging or guillotine.
Unlike Kiss and Manson though, Alice also backed up the theatrics with great songs like "I'm Eighteen," "School's Out," and "Billion Dollar Babies."
In real life however, that same dizzying experience took its toll on Alice and nearly did him in for real. As the lines between the Alice Cooper character and the actual human being with the Christian name of Vince Furnier became increasingly blurred, Alice sought his own refuge in a bottle (actually, make that several cans of Budweiser) on pretty much a non-stop basis. Eventually, Alice had to check himself out of the game and into the hospital.
Alice has since comeback a couple of times, garnering hits with the solo Welcome To My Nightmare album, and then once more in the eighties with the song "Poison." But he never really did match that original run in the seventies when he was the single most feared man in America (well, by the adults anyway).
These days, Alice is clean and sober, a born again Christian, and a family man (Alice's daughter is even part of his stage show as a dancer). But even though he's toned down his act some (the sexier, x-rated gender bending bits are gone these days), he's still pushing the horror rock angle, touring the country six months out of every year. The venues may be smaller, but they are still nearly always sold out, and in addition to the old classic rock dogs you'd expect, Alice is also reaching a newer, younger group of fans.
Article comments
1 - Mark Saleski
yessir, Alice put out some classic stuff back then.
i do have to disagree with you about Kiss though...but of course i tossed my indie cred out the window when i was about 15. ;-)
2 - El Bicho
"Unlike Kiss and Manson though,..."
Are you kidding? Both bands have great songs.
3 - Pico
Didn't Eric Singer also played in Kiss for a while?
4 - Glen Boyd
Yes Eric Singer was in Kiss. Speaking of which, I'll begrudgingly give them their due for "Detroit Rock City" and "R&R All Nite."
But that was about it in my own opinion.
As for Manson, most of his stuff is utterly lacking in melody (I'll maybe give him some credit for the Bowie-ish "Dope Show," but even that's a stretch). And MM's act is a complete ripoff of AC's, and further lacks any of Alice's sense of humor.
-Glen
5 - Donald Gibson
I don't know that I'd want to get on the bad side of Marilyn Manson fans and the KISS Army. That's just asking for trouble. :)
6 - El Bicho
You only like two KISS songs?! You need to call Dr. Love because something ain't right.
"his stuff is utterly lacking in melody"
Thanks, Al--er I mean Glen. You might not like it, but there's melody to the music, although I understand it may be too fast and loud for your demographic. Manson's act is completely different from Cooper, so I question if you have really sat down and gave him and the music a fair chance. btw, Cooper's act is a complete rip off of Grand Guignol and Screamin' Jay Hawkins, so spare me on who's ripping off who.
7 - JC Mosquito
I think the essential difference is that KISS and Manson always sounded to me like they were trying too hard to convince the public they were controversial, whereas the Coop knew he was an entertainer, so any controversy was either totally ironic or totally real. All I know is the first time I heard "The Ballad of Dwight Frye" when I was a kid it scared the crap outta me, which is more than I can say for the big KISS ballad, "Beth." Well, I guess did that did scare the crap outta me too - I thought my 8 track was defective and was playing Engelbert Humperdinck.
8 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
Nice Review...
Alice Cooper deserves all the credit for creating one of my favorite genres! I agree that his seventies work is the best by far and his stage show was brilliant.[unfortunately, I didn't get to see him live]. I didn't care for his 80's Glam Rock release. Definitely have to check out his new CD.
Though...Before Manson there was King Diamond. I do believe he was just as much a progressive pioneering force for this genre as Alice Cooper especially with Mercyful Fate. Imo, his solo career was far more entertaining,talented & original. THEM took metal in a whole new direction & no one can match that vocal range!
Don't forget Lizzy Borden,either. He was very good in that Cooper vein.
9 - Glen Boyd
Thanx JC and Guppus. My main point here I guess is just that Alice really had some great songs, and for the most part can still do it.
I've never been a big fan of King Diamond though Guppus...something about that whole Satan thing I guess. I will give him props for having an interesting voice, and a great vocal register though. I also recognize his contributions to the whole black metal sub-genre.
I'm not sure I quite understand the venom behind your comments though Bicho. I mean, comparing me to Al? Going after my age (err, excuse me, my "demographic")? C'mon now...
Look man, its only music, and as such its all subjective anyway. The truth is I've just never really cared for Kiss or Manson. I've never owned an album by either, although I have seen Kiss live numerous times, and I always found their shows very entertaining. I've just never found their songs partcularly memorable (well, save for maybe something like "Detroit Music City," which I wont switch channels on if it comes on the radio).
As for MM, I stand by my comments. He owes his very existence to AC. End of story. Alice may have borrowed from the Grand Guignol tradition as well as from Jay Hawkins (hell, even Elton John did that with Funeral For a Freiend), but he still invented a unique character and a concept, which Manson stole outright, right down to the choice of name.
For the record, I do listen to plenty of loud, fast music too. I just don't find Manson's tunes particularly, well "tuneful." He kind of had me for a minute with the Mechanical Animals record, where he sort of did a seventies druggy Bowie/Lou Reed-ish glam sort of thing. But the rest of it just doesn't do anything for me.
Above all, I think he lacks Alice's sense of humor, and instead opts for outrage simply for its own sake. Just aint' my bag.
So I guess we'll just have to disagree here.
-Glen
10 - El Bicho
Brother Boyd, there's no venom involved; however, if you don't want to be compared to Brother Barger, then you should not be pilfering the good man's trademarked phrases. Even though you just racked up a perfect game of articles, I forget you are still rather new around here. That hippie Saleski can back me up on this, or better yet, here's some quotes from that hawkish Hoosier to prove my point.
"Slayer are apparently opposed to Jesus Christ, war, and melody."
"World Wide Suicide" has even less melody and hooks than the broadly similar guitar rock of U2's mediocre "Vertigo."
"[Black Sabbath] didn't have much in the way of MELODY, which is the most important part of having a real song." [capitalization the author's]
"[James Brown] also had melody way over Sabbath."
"There's just nothing [from Eminem's SNL performance] that could even be generously mistaken as a melody."
We get it rock and melody don't mix for some, although to be fair, there was one loud rock song he liked: "'Pump It Up' has a perfectly good melody."
You are more than welcome to not like Marilyn Manson, but it would be nice if you did it for the right reasons. What's the actual connections between Manson and Cooper other than a first female name. Cooper wanted to be some androgynous witch. Manson and the other members of his band wanted to reflect the perverse obsession people have with celebrity so they combined beautiful women and killers (Twiggy Ramirez and Madonna Wayne Gacy).
Besides, I find it hard to believe you expect to live in a world where artists aren't allowed to dabble and expand in areas if someone else has done something similar first. Where would that leave that cheap and obvious Bob Dylan/Van Morrison rip-off of Springsteen?
11 - Glen Boyd
Okay, okay. Point taken...sort of anyway.
I guess I just tend a draw a finer line between influence and appropriation. You mention Springsteen, and his obvious Dylan and Morrison influences. You forgot to add the rest of them...Roy Orbison, Elvis, Phil Spector, and all of those old R&B Stax Record revues for starters (where else did you think 10th Avenue Freeze Out for example came from?).
Put all of these things in a blender, and yeah, you more or less get Springsteen (or at least something very damn close).
Everyone is influenced by someone in music. From Dylan came Springsteen, From Guthrie came Dylan, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Robert Johnson begat everyone from Cream to Zeppelin for petes sake! So yes, I get that.
I still think Manson did more or less rip off Alice's act though. Meaning, that he took the basic idea, goosed it up with some modern Trent Reznor fueled industrial hard rock (initially at least), threw in some satanic (and in the choice of the name, some serial killer) outrage that appears to be there for no other reason than shock for it's own sake and without any apparent point, and then completely forgot to inject any sort of humor into it. For me, thats where Mr. Manson missed the boat.
As far as the use of "melody" in music, yes I think it's important (or at least it can be), but it is certainly not the sole criteria in determining what makes an individual piece of music great, or even "good"....and certainly not in the case of rock and roll.
My point here, choice of words notwithstanding, is simply that I think Alice Cooper wrote better, more memorable songs on a consistent basis than either Kiss or Marilyn Manson. And yes, I base that primarily on the fact that said songs all had very memorable hooks. Thats my point, although we seem to have moved way past that in this comments thread.
That said, the word "melody" will not be used to make this argument (if it even IS an argument) again anytime soon. Hell, I'll even cancel my subscription to Melody Maker!
-Glen
12 - Mark Saleski
wait, wasn't Manson the first one to wear assless pants?
hmmm...that mighta been Prince.
rock and roll is so messy.
13 - El Bicho
I am pretty sure I saw Diamond Dave in them first, although I wouldn't be surprised to see a Rockologist column concluding with a pic of Glen's World Wide cheeks. He did work with Sir Mix-A-Lot back in the day, but "Boyd's Got Back" doesn't have the same ring to it.
14 - Donald Gibson
"wait, wasn't Manson the first one to wear assless pants?"
At least it wasn't Meat Loaf.
15 - Mat Brewster
wait, wasn't Manson the first one to wear assless pants?
I thought it was Howard Stern as "fartman"
ElB you are slaying me. Where is Brother Al anyways? He needs to stand up for his good name.
16 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
You are more than welcome to not like Marilyn Manson, but it would be nice if you did it for the right reasons.
HA! And Bicho comes down on me for making irrational statements?!
The Right reasons to NOT like Marilyn Manson:
1. Don't care much for the new Genre, Gym Rock.
2. Aerobics in a Mosh Pit will get you killed.
3. I thought Disco was left in the seventies
4. Techno/[anything] is f*cking lame
5. Leave Bukaki to the Japanese
6. He just f*cking sux!
17 - Jordan Richardson
7. His ridiculous attempt at absinthe (Mansinthe?!)
18 - Anonymous
Relax, boys! Enjoy the music, don't fight it!
19 - DiLBO
Its amazing how much people know these days and i think that the feeling of actually having an opinion about something overwelms the feeling of wanting to know the actual truth, or maybe we really are in a matrix and you and all your ideas are just a program with a virus, anyway, music is a personal experience for everyone so having a blog is interesting but also pointless and frustrating. ROCK ON!