Even musical geniuses like Joe Satriani can make mistakes sometimes. This one has nothing to do with his guitar playing.
The recent commotion over whether or not Coldplay ripped off guitar whiz Joe Satriani is nothing less than surprising and mystifying. My bewilderment has nothing to do with Coldplay however, but with Satriani, the guitar teacher-turned instrumental rock god.…
Article comments
76 - El Bicho
So Satriani is wrong to file a lawsuit that in part claims to know what Coldplay was thinking in their creation of the song, but the writer knows what was in Satriani's mind in terms of the timing of filing the lawsuit?
btw the statement "The Rolling Stones ought to be ashamed..." is wildly inaccurate because The Stones didn't file suit. They don't own the copyright to the song; ABKCO Records does.
77 - charlie
El Bicho, I didn't say The Rolling Stones filed the lawsuit (though they unjustly benefited from it, which I'll explain below). So, what I wrote about the Stones stands as accurate. Though I didn't mention the record company by name in my article, yes, The Stones "allowed" ABKCO Records to successfully sue The Verve over their use of an orchestral remix (of "The Last Time") that the Stones didn't write and then got complete songwriting credits to a song ("Bittersweet Symphony") they didn't deserve. That is accurate.
They (The Stones) could've tried to stop this lawsuit if they cared to do the right thing or at least shared songwriting credits and royalties, but for whatever reasons, chose not to and thus left The Verve without any profits from the single.
You see, The Verve HAD the license to use the Andrew Oldham Orchestra sample for "Bittersweet Symphony," then was told (via the ABKCO lawsuit) they used "too much" of it, which is bullshit. The result? Jagger/Richards got songwriting credit, and The Verve completely lost it.
And that was and still is wrong. The guitar, bass, drums, and vocals of "Bittersweet" are all The Verve's creation, as are some of the other sonic elements of the song. Only the strings were Oldham's, and they properly (until the lawsuit claimed otherwise) licensed those strings.
The Stones/Oldham were going to make some money off "Bittersweet" anyway due to the proper licensing The Verve were originally granted, but once it became a hit, ABKCO basically got greedy and wanted to get them and The Stones complete profits for the whole song. Needless to say, I've lost a little respect for Mick Jagger and Keith Richards because of this.
78 - El Bicho
The publishing royalties of "BS" were turned over to Allen Klein and ABKCO who owns the copyright to "The Last Time," not to The Stones. I don't see what proof you have that simply by asking Mick and/or Keith could have stopped Klein, so no it's not accurate to say they "allowed" it.
Besides, if The Verve had any legal standing, they wouldn't have settled out of court with such a lop-sided deal. Oldham filed a separate lawsuit 18 months later.
Now, whoever own the copyright to The Staple Singers' "This Maybe The Last Time" should have sued ABKCO, if they didn't.
79 - Charlie
Look El Bicho, the ABKCO lawsuit was totally uncalled for, but I really think Jagger/Richards could have convinced the greedy Allen Klein/ABKCO guys - who only sued The Verve once "B.S." became a hit - to settle for at least a 50/50 split of royalties for "B.S." with The Verve, who wrote 95% of the song. I may not have "proof," but I feel there's no way that company sued without input or some level of support from the Stones, since songwriting credits for this song reverted back to Jagger/Richards when all was said and done.
I'm not the biggest The Verve fan in the world, but bullshit like that really pisses me off, as does Keith Richards' quote in a 1998 Q magazine interview responding to whether it was right to take 100% of all royalties: "If they can write a better song, they can keep all the money." This, coming from a guy who hasn't written more than 3 or so memorable songs in 20 years! Again, Q Magazine interview Richards about this, not Allen Klein or ABKCO, so don't tell me he and The Stones had nothing to do with that lawsuit against The Verve. Sorry, but in my opinion, there's just no way Allen Klein went ahead with it without Keith Richards or Mick Jagger's blessing.
80 - Denobulan Earthworm
Ok seriously, upon a pretty thorough analysis of both tunes here's what I've got from my (a musician for 8 years) interpretation:
Music in its simplest terms is broken into 3 basic creative components:
1.Harmony - 2.Melody - 3.Rythm
When comparing each of these components in direct contrast, it doesn't look so good for Coldplay.
Rhythm - When compared on a METRNOME "Fly" and "Viva" are almost set at IDENTICAL tempos...off by 1 or 2 beats per minute. That is a minescule difference that no naked ear could pick out.
Satriani 1 - Coldplay 0
The way the rhythm is syncopated (the way the beats deviate from the simple 1-2-3-4 : 1-2-3-4 etc... pattern) are VERY similar...creating a similar groove and feel:
ex. d = eighth note r = rest
"They both closely follow this pattern"
4/4 | d r d r d d r d | r d r d d r d r |
Satriani 2 - Coldplay 0
Harmony - If you take apart the chord structure, "viva" shares the EXACT progression excerpting one minor difference: there is a chord substitution for the first chord. This substitution is just another way of playing the same thing, creating the same feel. To the naked ear the difference is unapparent as well as technically similar. It would be useless for me to explain this to someone unfamiliar with the theory in this field.
Satriani 3 - Coldplay 0
The "key" is irrelevant, any musician with a paper and pen or just an instrument could easily transpose (take from one key to another) a piece of music. You learn this in grade 10 music class. If I transposed a piece of someone else's music and called it my own...I would probably go to court and lose on purpose, out of pure shame.
Satriani 4 - Coldplay 0
Melody - The Coldplay tune is very simple and there are no real depth changes as far as the piece of music goes while the Satriani tune goes through various sections BUT, the head of "viva" song contains VERY SIMILAR pitching in the melody lines and in one case the melody is pitched the SAME WAY as "fly". The fact that the melody is sung in "viva" as opposed to played on guitar in "fly", makes no difference. Look at it this way: The "Music" is still there whether you play it on guitar, sing it, bang it out on pitched pots and pans...what I'm getting at it that if you played both tunes on the same instrument say...piano for example, you'll find them to sound VERY similar. One could argue that the presentation of the music, which is quite different, counts for something but this is not a case about stealing the arrangement and sounds, it's is the theft of the music itself.
Satriani 5 - Coldplay 1 (awarded a point for the difference in presentation)
There is a
great video that backs this up on youtube...
I've never heard a two songs this close from genres so distant. Coldplay, quite new and very popular have achieved great commercial success with "viva" at #1 for quite some time now. They've proven to know how to play the game of industry and latch onto a niche and fly with it.
Satriani revolutionized the guitar back in the 80's (with the album "surfing with the alien" and continued to do so for a very long time. And to my knowledge, this isn't the first time Coldplay has been suspected of ripping off music from other artists. If i was the judge, I'd of banged that little hammer thing along time ago!
81 - charlie
Denobulan, see comment #46 - that youtube guitar teacher made up chord similarities that DO NO EXIST (on Coldplay's guitarist's part). Your analysis, though I give you an b for effort, is so offbase and inaccurate (and irrelevant as far as common rhythms are considered) that it's not worth breaking down. Besides, I'm tired of doing it again and again.
I tell you what, why don't you write out the actual chord structures, please. These two songs don't have a single note in common. Prove me wrong by writing out the actual notes of the relevant sections of both songs.
82 - Denobulan Earthworm
I am pleased to see your truly diplomatic approach to this case and I admire that. So seeing that you seem to have a very unbiased analysis, and the leading knowledge that you do of ths situation: As a member of a hypothetical jury, who do you believe takes the cake on this one. Putting aside all rediculous claims about the presumed psychological intentions of either artists, and the notion that Satch is just "washed up".
83 - charlie
Earthworm, thanks so much for reaching out to me. Honestly (and I mean that sincerely), I believe Coldplay will and should prevail in this case.
Why? Because through "independent creation," the defendant (Coldplay) could easily prove how "Viva's" song structure bares little to no similarities and certainly no "substantial" infringement upon any melody of Satch's "If I Could Fly," as the Bee Gees did successfully in Selle v. Gibb, which dealt with its song "How Deep Is Your Love" having similarity to an unknown composer's melody, but ultimately no copyright infringement.
Again, I am shocked, even sickened to my stomach that two artists I like are involved in a lawsuit with each other and that Satriani, of all people, can't see the difference between similar song structure and a pure rip-off.
More puzzling is that Satriani, nor his legal staff have pointed to anything specifically about the Coldplay song that rips him off; it isn't the lyrics, or any specific part, but "the song itself."
That won't and shouldn't fly in a copyright infringement case. And I bet that once he/his legal team tries and makes his case in court that Coldplay ripped him off, the jury won't buy it, no matter how much in depth music theory he may try and throw at them (like the wildly inaccurate infamous YouTube teacher I called out in an earlier comment, who made up similar chordal similarities in his comparison of the two songs).
No matter what happens, I hope Coldplay and its management learn a valuable lesson from all this: take copyright infringement accusations seriously and head-on from the outset. Even if you think there's nothing to them, don't ever assume such allegations will just go away if you ignore them (publicly or privately) long enough. That was Coldplay's mistake. The longer they took to respond to Satch, the more reason they had of suspicion that the band was guilty of plagiarism (wrong as they are).
I will rest easy knowing the facts are on Coldplay's side, but will a jury come to this same conclusion? We shall find out.
84 - Peter Katsiannis
You should not be writing about music.
To put your self above the musical sensibilities of Joe Satriani is bad enough.
Your eloquent ignorance is as vulgar as Coldplay's blatant and thorough ripoff.
85 - charlie
Hey Peter, feel free to prove note-by-note how Coldplay ripped off Satriani. Otherwise, you've got nothing on me or anyone else trying to make a genuine, unbiased assessment of these two songs.
86 - Pat
charlie, your "debunking" of the Youtube teacher's analysis that you are so proud of is completely off-base. He didn't "make up chord structures" or anything like that. He transposed Viva from Ab to F minor for various reasons (see his second video, you silly goose).
That said, the song is obviously a rip off. The melodic arcs are far too similar.
87 - Pat
And by far too similar, I actually mean "almost exactly the same." IE. The melodic arcs start with the same notes, the middle of the arc of both songs form perfect fifths with the other, then ends with three out of four of the same notes.
That's just the start. This is detailed in the Youtube teacher's (correct) analysis in his second video.
88 - Pat
Also worth mentioning, you are very snobbish to the people commenting here that don't agree with you. I'd think you would know better, being the author of this opinion piece, as that discourages future readership and especially commenting.
That said, you are clearly not "unbiased" or "genuine" or anything to that tune as you keep claiming. In every post, you hail Coldplay and degrade Satriani, promote Coldplay and insult Satriani. You clearly have a very strong bias, regardless if you try to make up for it by saying that you like some of his music.
89 - Charlie
Pat, if you think the "melodic arc" of "Viva" starts out the same as "Fly," please write out the notes. Think for yourself and not from the flawed YouTube teacher (who did indeed make up guitar chords that are not present in "Viva" to make a case of theoretical similarities that are not present between the two songs).
Like I've said elsewhere, Coldplay can easily prove through independent creation that every part of "Viva" is original content, from the strings, the airy electric guitar bits, bass and drums and vocals.
Also Pat, you are very much offbase about what I've said in this forum. If I come off as having an attitude, it's because people here have been rudely attacking me. I have a right to defend myself! And, never once did I "hail" Coldplay. So not only are you offbase, you're a liar. If anything, I "hail" Satriani but am willing to hold my admiration of his work back and readers in this forum have shown their appreciation for my unbiased analysis of this very serious case.
If you saw my record collection (no Coldplay, lots of Satriani cassettes, CDs, DVDs and signature guitar picks I use daily), you would think I should be biased TOWARD Joe Satriani. But you see, I clearly am not. I listen to two songs, and analyze based them based on 20 years of musical knowledge, learning songs and arrangements by ear and by notation. That's it.
Now Pat, like I've said to quite a few others who have yet to answer my challenge, if you think Coldplay ripped off Satriani, prove it with actual musical notation (as best you can do it without a music sheet).
90 - Charlie
Also Pat (and others), you want a more debatable case for copyright infringement? Try comparing Janet Jackson's piano chords on "Again" with Paul McCartney's "Let It Be." I hear at least three-to-four chords in a row on "Again" that at one point are sequentially like the start of "Let It Be." Should Paul have sued? I don't know. Probably not.
The point of me bring this up is that unlike Satriani vs Coldplay, at least Sir Paul, if he did sue, could point to 3-4 piano chords/sequence of notes in a row (on Janet's "Again," which is in the key of C major) that sound almost exactly like one of his main progressions (on "L.I.B.," also in C major). The same can not be said of "Viva" as compared to "If I Could Fly."
91 - Marcia Neil
Many musicians and other performers know they should not have royalty payments when performing other people's music, and many company owners want a lot of money so that the company 'runs' itself using employees. When two or more songs sound alike, they come from the same source, which is not necessarily directly from the performers/dedications named. Some performers/dedications might well create more superlative music than the tunes they publicly perform and are dedicated to them.
92 - fxg
you suck donkey ass
93 - So not Quadrophenic
Now, I've done a bit of research on this~and still don't know who to side with. Both have things going for them.
I admit, my knowledge of music theory is rudimentary, but I have looked into this quite a bit.
Coldplay's arguments rely mainly on the definition of music plagiarism itself. The snippet that supposedly was plagiarized is about 7 seconds in length-and is almost exactly the same. The chord progression differs at the beginning, and the rest is the same, and the actual rhythm of the snippet is near identical. Of course, Satriani accents it differently, but it could be argued that that part is substantially similar. However, not the entire song, which is required. So, by legal standards, Coldplay is safe.
Satriani, however, could argue that because that similarity is present discernibly in multiple places in the song that it is substantially similar. There is also a striking similarity in the melodic arc of the song in some places, thoes which I am too addled and lazt to find.
I apologize in advance for any typos, beccause I suck abysmally at typing.
94 - Marcia Neil
There is no plagiarism when two or more songs (or two or more album themes) originate from the same source -- there are only different performers who agree or are coerced into public performances.
95 - So not Quadrophenic
Also, forgot to add this, Satriani seems to just be fussing over this one. Chord progression and melodic arc are not justifiable reasons for a suit, and there are many cases where there are two songs that are far more close than these two. There is an Avenged Sevenfold song that sounds almost identical to the Rolling Stones song, "Paint it Black," and I don't see the Stones suing them. Satriani also seems to forget that the arrangement in the songs is radically different-and in the end, they don't sound very similar. In places, they look similar, but only very rarely do they actually sound alike.
96 - Charlie Doherty
UPDATE 9/15/09: Satriani suit dismissed! And rightly so. I'm still a big time fan of his but he was and still is totally, 100% wrong about Coldplay stealing his music.
For him to say the "second" he heard "Viva" that he knew it was a rip off of one of his songs just doesn't make any sense.
The only similarity - from a musical notation standpoint - between the two songs is vocalist Chris Martin, throughout the song, holding out an eighth note for five notes, going up a half pitch then down 1 1/2 pitches (or notes), while Satch does that same progression a few times on his instrumental "If I Could Fly," particularly at the start of the song's two choruses.
That's it. That's the similarity - but not even CLOSE to the same notes, as I've explained elsewhere since this needless controversy started.
97 - El Bicho
"Satriani suit dismissed!"
Nice try. More like 'Satriani suit settled for an undisclosed amount with no admittance of wrongdoing!' if you read the article you linked to. If he was 100% wrong, then Coldplay should have fought it. They didn't.
98 - Charlie D
El Bicho, I respect you're opinion but you're wrong here. It's not clear yet a "financial settlement" has been reached yet. But it sure looks like it.
If Coldplay did just throw money at Satch (in Michael Jackson-like fashion) knowing that will make the lawsuit go away, not only is that a stupid mistake, it says something about the legal system in this country, and in many people's minds (including yours El Bicho, I know) automatically means Coldplay is privately admitting to plagiarism.
That's wrong, of course but everyone has the right to their opinion. Mine happens to be based on musical facts and common sense, not gut instinct or bias towards or against an artist like many others out there (especially Coldplay haters).
I would love to get my fellow Satch fans in a room with a chalkboard and go over note by note both songs and maybe, just maybe then they will see why these songs ("Viva" and "Fly") don't have a single piece of music or melody that matches up note for note. The only similarities you're hearing are what I've described in the article and in countless comments here, including the one before last (#96).
I could give a crap about Coldplay in general but I hate it when musicians get unjustly sued, especially when the accuser is someone I've been listening to and learning the music of for over 15 years and should know better than me. [I've taught guitar and piano privately on the side over the years but he was a professional guitar teacher for pete's sake!]
I know I've explained this a thousand times now but if I could talk to Joe Satriani himself, I'd love for the man himself to tell me exactly how Chris Martin's often-repeated melody of C-C#-Bb is a rip of his tune's progression of F#-G-E.
True, the first notes of these progressions (C for Martin, F# for Satch) are held out/paused for exactly five eighth notes long and that the progression goes up a half step and down one-and-a-half steps from those first notes. But if you listen to blues standards (with its I-IV-V progressions), you should know THIS similarity is nothing to be concerned about.
What is Martin supposed to do, hold out/pause that "C" note for two or three eighth notes instead of five? Give me a break. [You're average Top 40 pop rock song has tons more similarities to past hits that could be construed as ripoffs than this, which isn't even close to a ripoff, just a short structural similarity common in most music.]
Satch. Is. Suing. Over. This. Simple. Three-note-progression. See how ridiculous he is now for suing?
Not only are the notes and melody not the same, but legally speaking, he can't say Coldplay took "substantial portions" of his material. Case closed, and (ill-advised) payoff or not, rightly "dismissed."
99 - El Bicho
Considering the document has been sealed, what else could it mean? And not to keep disagreeing with you, but I don't presume that just because they paid Satch to go away means they admit guilt. The costs to deal with lawsuits can be a lot.
However, with all their money, I don't see why they didn't fight, if they are 100% in the right as you state. It's a bad precedent, but there must be some room for concern on their part, and they likely learned something from George Harrison's case/travesty.
100 - Joe Rubino
I'm not a fan of either Coldplay or Joe, but I don't see what the issue is. Anybody saying "no" is either tone-deaf or an unabashed Coldplay fan. The songs are so similar that, to a person who didn't know which was published first, Joe's could be thought to be an instrumental version of Coldplay's hit. Charlie- you need to do yourself a favor and go onto You Tube and see the Guitar Instructor from Canada who, in two very long videos (9 minutes and 7 minutes), broke down both songs scientifically to demonstrate their similarity. He illustrated stunning similarities in tempo, chords, and melody. You can bet that Joe got paid on this one.
101 - Charlie
Joe, thanks for your comment (#100, no less and congrats for that). But yes, he is the "Youtube" teacher I referred to in earlier comments. He presents the strongest case that the two songs have too much in common to not be plagiaristic but he is wrong in his analysis and makes up chords in the Coldplay song that do not exist to make a crucial point! The songs do not have the same melody and chords.
That is crucial and he fails to demonstrate the exact guitar chords Coldplay plays, nor does he demonstrate how Coldplay's singer imitates a Satriani guitar line. I could go on but I've said enough here.
102 - Charlie
And if you don't know what I'm talking about Joe, watch the teacher in the 7-minute mark make up a G major chord, A major chord, D major seventh + 9 chord and b minor chord that don't exist in "Viva" right after playing the chorus of Satch's "If I Could Fly," which is E minor 7, A major, D major seventh + 9, and B minor. "Viva" has one-note guitar lines, that's it (no actual chords).
The bass (always one note at a time here) goes a completely different route, even if it's a similar tempo as "Fly." But thousands of songs have the same tempo so that's nothing. And that bass line is: D flat, E flat, A flat, F (minor). Can Andrew the Youtube teacher explain how that rips off Satch? No way.
103 - Wasssssup
"For Coldplay to be successfully sued, Satriani would have to prove the band had access to his work"
...Really? The fact Satch's song was out for at least 3 years before Coldplay came out with their song isn't "access to the work"?
104 - Charlie Doherty
There's a lot more than that that goes into determining (legally) what is and what is not a ripoff - and accessibility is one of them. So you could say anybody has "access" to another artist's released work. But how to you prove that in a court case?
Remember, Coldplay and Satch come from different countries. Why would they (Coldplay, from England) seek out an obscure track from an American artist they have nothing in common with?
I believe courts should NEVER have the final say on artistic plagiarism disputes and am glad these two parties settled out of court without anyone admitting wrongdoing. Both sides could have handled this better (Coldplay especially, by taking Satch seriously when he first complained about "Viva"). But it's done and over with. Coldplay haters will still hate Coldplay. And Satch lovers will still love the guy's work to death.
Stupid
105 - James Pownall
I read this article just out of curiosity, and i've been up all night reading through the comments. And i've got to say, you've really got it wrong Charlie. I know it's about 6 months since the last post here, but i can't just let other people read through most of this and have them think you're correct.
My first point of concern is you insisting that the Coldplay tune doesn't have "actual chords". Although the chords are not played on the one instrument, they are outlined through the polyphonic structure of the song. How can you even argue that there is no chordal structure or outlining?
Secondly, drop the "different bass lines" argument. You claim the guitar teacher is wrong for ignoring this, but you clearly ignored that he was comparing them on a interval-based level, rather than a diatonic tonal level. In doing so, you did not think to transpose the Coldplay bass line into the same key as Satriani's song. If you did so, you'd realise that it outlines the same chordal changes. It would be a bass line of G, A, D and B. This just happens to be the same as those chords that the instructor "made up"!
The contour of the vocal line and satriani's lead guitar are incredibly similar, and also share the same intervalic progression. I'm playing them through on my guitar now; they are identical aside from the difference in key.
Your problem is you're not thinking in an intervalic structure; you're seeing it purely in a tonal form. And when you look at it on paper in such a form, the songs are obviously going to seem different. Similar tempo? Sure, an easy coincidence. Same chord progression? Sure, there's only so many 4-chord variations that are viable in the commercial world. Similar lead line? It's a possible coincidence assuming it's in a different context. But near identical in all three aspects? That's too much for me to handle.
One more thing about the chord progression! Another thing you may say is, "well G major and EM7 are different chords, case dismissed!", but you would be wrong. An EM7 is comprised of a G Major triad with an E. One could argue that EM7 is an inversion of G Major. In both songs they function in the same way. (I know, slightly out of order to talk about this now, but it was bugging me and i forgot to mention it earlier).
But by far the most ridiculous thing i read in this comments section was the remark, "Remember, Coldplay and Satch come from different countries. Why would they (Coldplay, from England) seek out an obscure track from an American artist they have nothing in common with?".
First of all, I'm from Australia, and i've heard of Coldplay and have some of there stuff. But they are from England, and i have nothing in common with Coldplay....oh my God i've somehow fractured the space-time continuum! *universes collapses on itself*... But continuing, who are you to say Coldplay have nothing in common with Satriani, and even if that is the case, why does it matter? I'm a fan of Joe Satriani, and i've seeked out his work, and he's from another country (gasp!), and all i have in common with him is that we both share a love for playing guitar and for the art of music. Coldplay have almost certainly more in common with him, both being in the commercial realm.
Anyway, rant over, anger diffused. For anyone who ever reads this, always remember that it's always important to investigate further!
106 - Charlie Doherty
Do you know how many millions of songs have similarities based on "interval levels"? Jeez Louise. And sorry, I'm not buying the bass lines argument either, either the actual notes or transposed notes.
They don't matchup as a rip off of any kind (Satch's chorus bass line: E-A-D-B; relevant Coldplay bass line: C-D-G-E). Not even close (in notes and intervals).
The only, and I mean, the ONLY progression "Viva" has in common with a few seconds of a "If I Could Fly" solo is that Chris Martin's vocal goes up a half step from D flat to D, which he holds out for about 5 sixteenth notes long, and then goes down 1 1/2 steps to B. But that's ONLY if you discount him repeating the first notes with different lyrics to start the progression, which he does every single time. And you can't discount any notes if you're considering a song a ripoff or not.
I'm sure if you transpose a Bette Midler vocal or two you could claim she's ripping off Satch too (or the other way around!). Point is that a similar (and very short) intervallic progression doesn't make one song a ripoff of another.
And I still say these two songs are separate gems with one, two-second similarity. Plain and simple.
Millions of punk and blues songs rip each other off. Spend your time looking into that.
107 - James Pownall
"They don't matchup as a rip off of any kind (Satch's chorus bass line: E-A-D-B; relevant Coldplay bass line: C-D-G-E). Not even close (in notes and intervals)."
C-D-G-E?? Where did you pull those notes from? You've transposed it into E Minor rather than B minor. The CORRECT bass notes for Viva La Vida are G-A-D-B, which functions in the same way as the Satriani song due to the fact that G is the minor 3rd in an EM7 chord.
And where did you get this idea that there is a Db to D in the Coldplay tune? The vocal line does not use that pitch in any part. This is due to the song being in the key F minor, which doesn't have a major six (D).
How can you claim to have a knowledge of music theory yet make so many mistakes?
As for punk and blues, i'm sure there are countless cases of lawsuits similar to this one, they just aren't as publicised. I also think that people consider blues to be more of an open domain area than commercial music, due to the fact that it would be near impossible to track down the original creator of the certain blues formats e.g twelve-bar, etc..
108 - Charlie Doherty
James, you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm the one using the actual notes in both songs (I may be a half step off, but am going on memory alone, so give me a break if it's really C-Db-Bb instead of D#-D-B.) You are making them up or using the guitar teacher from Youtube's flawed analysis as your own.
109 - Charlie Doherty
*"instead of Db-D-B" I meant to say.
110 - Charlie Doherty
There is no G in "Viva," pal, not in the bass lines or anywhere else. Since the guitars and bass are in Eb standard tuning, (and I actually have my guitar in hand now unlike before), the main bass lines are: Db-Eb (open E on the sixth string) and then Ab-F.
Satch's bass and guitars are in E standard tuning, and you can't question the relevant bass lines I laid out before. They are different than "Viva's" in terms of intervals and actual notes. End of story.
111 - James Pownall
I was referring to the bass line in its transposed form, not it's original form. You've again ignored the fact that they function in the same way. This is seen when you transpose them into the same key. Lets explore it:
TRANSPOSED CHORDS AND BASS LINES
Satch:
(chords) Em7, A major, DMaj7, BMin
(bass line) E, A, D, B
Coldplay:
(chords, transposed to B minor) G major, A major, D major (or 7, not positive), B minor
(bass, transposed to B minor) G, A, D, B
Lets compare them chord by chord, note by note.
Chord I
EM7 & G major
E & G bass notes
EM7 is comprised of a G major triad with an E, or 1-flat3-5-flat7. So G major is incorporated into EM7, which allows us to understand why they function in the same way and sound similar in the scheme of the song. A G major is comprised of a I-III-V. These notes also happen to be the flat3-5-flat7 in the key of E, the notes which make up an EM7. Understand?
The E and G bass notes are indeed different, yet due to G being in both a G major chord and an E minor 7, it functions in the same way, and vice versa with the E bass note.
CHORD II
A major & A bass note - Satch
A major & A bass note - Coldplay
The same, needs no further exploration.
Chord III
D major & D bass note- Satch
D major & D bass note- Coldplay
The same again, no need to explore this.
Chord IV
B minor and B bass - Satch
B minor and B bass - Colplday
The same, once again.
Also, i don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Coldplay uses Eb Standard tuning in this song, considering most of it is in synth and it's in the key of F minor.
The main vocal melody of "Viva" and the main guitar melody in "If I Could Fly" also share the same notes when transposed into the same key.
For the Coldplay tune, the notes are C, Db, Bb, Ab and F.
For the Satch tune, the notes are F#, G, E, D and B.
If we shift the Coldplay tune from F minor to B minor, the notes then become, F#, G, E, D and B.
As well as this, they follow a similar rhythmic contour, which you have agreed with in earlier posts, yet dismissed due to the fact that they had "different notes". Now, can you see that they share the same notes when transposed?
Are you trying to argue that despite sharing all of these elements, the difference in key seperates them? So if i transposed "Viva" into D minor, i'd be safe from a lawsuit?
112 - Charlie Doherty
James, you don't get it. Stop transposing these tunes! You can't get a true analysis of these songs that way!
113 - Charlie Doherty
James, as far as how I can tell the song is in Eb standard tuning, at least on bass, it's because, starting around the 1:10 mark of "Viva" the bass comes in and that the lowest note is a low Eb, which tells me it's an open Eb on the low E string (the bass player later switches it up a bit to use a higher-sounding Ab and Eb and adds a Bb-C progression in there around the 1:27-28 mark).
Besides, whether on guitar or bass, most people don't use Db and Eb as the starting point on a song if you are in standard tuning. Instead, you'd just use D and E.
114 - James Pownall
THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO ANALYSE THEM, DON'T YOU GET IT?
You need to put them into the same key to understand the similarities. It's like comparing fractions; it's made much clearer if both have the same denominator. In this case, the musical key is the denominator.
115 - James Pownall
Fair enough on the point of Eb tuning, i hadn't listened to the song closely enough to hear that. But that statement about people not using Db and Eb at the start of the song is just incredibly wrong and narrow-minded. There are countless songs that start on these notes that don't use Eb tuning.
Also, i take your lack of response to my explanation of the theory as acceptance of its correctness?
116 - Charlie Doherty
"The main vocal melody of "Viva" and the main guitar melody in "If I Could Fly" also share the same notes when transposed into the same key.
For the Coldplay tune, the notes are C, Db, Bb, Ab and F.
For the Satch tune, the notes are F#, G, E, D and B."
Incorrect, sir. You are missing a ton of notes, which on a music sheet I would tab out for anyone who cares.
As best I can do without one, here's a Coldplay common lyrical melody in the song, using mostly 16th notes: C-C-C-C(hold for one additional 16th note)-C (hold the last "C" for 5 16th notes long)-Db(hold one additional 16th note)-Bb (hold for five more 16th notes), Bb(hold one more 16th note)-Ab-Bb (hold for two more 16ths, Ab-Bb-Ab-Eb-F.
Satch's "Fly" on guitar around the :49 second mark: F#(hold for 6 16th notes)-bend up to G-E, D-E, D-E, E-D-E-(bend up to)F#, D-B.
I know it well because I've played it countless times (as well as other great Satch songs over the years).
117 - Charlie Doherty
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear about the Db to Eb use. Lots of guitarists use it, but not in songs that are in the key of E major in E standard tuning. You wouldn't see Tony Iommi using Eb to Db on "Paranoid" in standard E tuning. That's why he goes from E to D (then quickly goes to G-something, then back to D before finishing on E again). Just as an example.
118 - James Pownall
I was talking about simply the tones used rather than the amount of times they are used. Now the main point that you've raised is the different accenting of the notes used in both songs, and that's correct. But the changes between the notes occur at relatively the same time in each song. In my next post i'll post the relation between then rhythmic timing of the tone changes in notation to make it clearer.
I understand what you're saying about the tuning thing, but you're being very broad and only thinking about songs that are written in Eb. Many songs incorporate the keys of Eb and C# without using Eb standard tuning, Dream Theater's "Take The Time" and Symphony X's "Divine Wings of Tragedy" come to mind. There's no rule on this. Also, the bass player could be using a five-string bass, which would make more sense.
119 - Charlie Doherty
And about your theory, listen dude, you're not telling me anything I already don't know and learned back in high school.
While I'm at it, I hope you meant to write E minor 7. You wrote "EM7," which with a capital M means MAJOR 7. As you should know, E minor is the relative minor of G major. E major/EM7 does not match up with G major (in terms of all the notes).
Also, keep in mind that Satch's chorus' first interval jump (E to A) is a perfect 4th, while Coldplay's is consistently a major 2nd (Db to Eb).
Where both are the same in the relevant parts of these songs is the interval jumps from chords II-III (down a perfect 5th) and from chords III-IV (down a minor 3rd). Is that grounds for a lawsuit? Hell no!
The point is, you can transpose any number of songs, especially on commercial radio and say they rip off somebody. It's really pointless to continue doing so here. Either you understand there is no rip off here or you don't.
120 - Charlie Doherty
Coldplay's bass player uses a four-string bass. I've seen them live on TV (check out a Youtube clip of a random performance and see for yourself).
121 - Charlie Doherty
"Now the main point that you've raised is the different accenting of the notes used in both songs, and that's correct. But the changes between the notes occur at relatively the same time in each song."
Incorrect again. Dude, just give it up already. You're sounding like a conspiracy theorist now.
122 - James Pownall
You're actually wrong. E minor 7 is written EM7, E major 7 is written EMaj7. Secondly, i've already explained how the first chord of each songs function in the same way, and you've completely ignored it. To prove this to you, play through the "Viva" chords, but substitute the Db Major for a BbM7 using the following voicing:
----1---
----2---
----1---
----3---
----1---
----x---
It's not the exact same chord, but functions in the same way due to the fact that this chord can be considered an extension of Db Major due it being comprised of a Db major triad with a 6.
How can't you see that the similarities outweigh the differences? So far i've been able to counter all your evidence.
123 - Charlie Doherty
You haven't countered any of it. All you've done is show off your theory knowledge and make totally unrelated, off-base points to the actual notes in these songs. I've written the actual notes and you haven't acknowledged them.
You don't even know that the first "chord" of "If I Could Fly" is a GMaj7, which is totally different than the Db major that begins "Viva."
And by the way James. You don't even realize what signifies a minor chord, and you're telling me I don't know my shit?
At no point does a capital M signify a minor. Not where I come from. Look at any notation guide, even in Guitar World and you'll see "Em" is E minor.
You can keep this up but won't get anywhere unless you acknowledge the actual notes Chris Martin sings and the guitar notes Satriani's guitar sings. Those are at the heart of this frivolous lawsuit. I've already written their parts out and proven that the difference outweigh the (short two interval) similarities. Find them in the article or in the comments section.
124 - James Pownall
THE FIRST CHORD IS CLEARLY AN EM7!! Now it appears you're just making things up!
"And by the way James. You don't even realize what signifies a minor chord, and you're telling me I don't know my shit?"
Where did that come from? You just called an Em7 a Gmaj7, and i don't "realize what signifies a minor chord"?
"At no point does a capital M signify a minor. Not where I come from. Look at any notation guide, even in Guitar World and you'll see "Em" is E minor."
I capitalized it, so what? You can obviously ascertain what i was saying, you're just jumping around the issue. Whenever i write my own music i've used capital M and it hasn't been a problem for anyone.
Ughhh, here we fucking go again! The song is the same progression in a different key! Obviously the chords, on paper, are different: they're in different keys. But when you put them in the same key to evalutate them, you can see it's the same! And i already have acknowledged the notes used within the songs, and compared them, and found them to be the same. As well as this, the rhythmic contour is the same for both melodies, accenting aside. If you only think that two short intervals are the basis of this case, you really need to train your ears.
125 - Charlie Doherty
What a joke! I called an "Em7 a Gmaj7"? Where, in Mars? You need to train your ears James, stop making things up and get a clue and actually LISTEN to the ENTIRE 6:33-minute "If I Could Fly" song. The VERY FIRST CHORD of "Fly" is a GMaj7 (and goes to F#maj-something, then Bmaj11 or something, doesn't matter), NOT Em7, which only appears starting at the :49 second mark for a couple of measures, and then around the 2 minute mark for a couple of more measures.
You also harp on shit that doesn't matter, like songs having the same rhythm. Only a "subsntial" matching of a given melody should matter when considering a ripoff. All this talk of progressions is a waste of our time, except for me pointing out to you that these songs have VERY brief similarities in notes and progressions.
There is only a three-note (when taken out of context on "Viva's" part) and two-interval progression that both songs match up on at any type, even when transposed into the same key (C#-D-Bb in "Viva" and be transposed to F#-G-E but you would be cutting out other key parts of "Viva's lyrical melodies before and afterward, and you CAN'T do that when you're judging a ripoff).
But I think you and I agree that even though it doesn't matter in the larger scheme of things, the bass lines of Coldplay's song, when transposed to the same key share three of the four same notes and therefore two of the same three intervals (but not the first note and interval as I explained earlier) as the Satch bass lines at the :49 and 2 minute marks.
You and I just have to agree to disagree on this. These short similarities are not "substantial" and therefore DO NOT make any song a rip off of another, let alone this one ("Viva"), but you seem to think so. Good for you.