Stanley Crouch has been haunting my dreams lately.
Stanley Crouch has been haunting my dreams lately. That's neither metaphor nor embellishment - in the past week, probably less than that, I have twice had dreams that prominently featured Crouch.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
Article comments
26 - Michael J. West
Tom,
Crouch was presenting the Improviser of the Year award at the first annual Jazz Awards. He was reading the nominees, and when he got to Douglas's name, he paused - looked up - sneered, and said, "Huh! That's an interesting choice." Then, the final nominee was Matthew Shipp; Crouch read his name and the name of his label, Hat Art Records, then added, "Well! I guess you have to record whoever you can get!"
It wasn't so much what he said, as that he picked a terrifically inappropriate time and place to say them. Presenting an award is not a free soapbox to take cracks at the award's nominees.
27 - Michael J. West
Musically, however, can anyone seriously listen to Susie Ibarra's playing and discount her simply because she's a woman? I highly doubt it, just like I seriously doubt anyone (who is not racist) discounts the playing of a musician just because of his or her race.
I don't think we CONSCIOUSLY do it, and I don't think we discount their playing, per se; but I do wonder if on some subconscious level we register it as "different." (That's not to say we absolutely do it - I have no idea if we do - I'm just conceding that it's possible and so I'm not willing to say that I absolutely DON'T do it.) Most people aren't racist...but NOBODY, I don't care who you are, is colorblind. We notice race, and I would not be surprised to learn that it affects our perceptions on a subconscious level, if only because it's "different" rather than superior or inferior or what-have-you.
28 - El Bicho
"Isn’t it possible that white critics hearing jazz as filtered through their white experiences are thereby able to relate more to white players"
Sorry, but I don't buy it. I'll give you that as a white man (although I am not sure why my German/Italian heritage doesn't get counted into my identity because it's different from someone who is French/English) I may not being able to fully comprehend the essence of Ellison's "Invisible Man," but I don't see race impeding my ability to appreciate Gillespie's "Salt Peanuts." I can't tell someone's race, creed, or gender by the sounds they make on an instrument, and my opinion of their work doesn't change when I see the artist's picture.
And what are "white experiences" or "black experiences"? Sounds like a form of stereotype shorthand. If you grow up poor and without a father in the city what color is that compared to growing up affluent with a father who is a dentist and living on a Midwest ranch? In the '70s when Miles was making a lot of money, living in a townhouse in NY, traveling the world, was he still living the "black experience," the same one as a young black kid growing up in the housing projects of Chicago?
By the way, when did the memo go out that I am supposed to be uncomfortable about evaluating jazz and that I am supposed to feel substantially alienated from it? It appears I have been wasting a lot of time.
29 - Michael J. West
No memo. I'm not expressing discomfort or alienation. Just wondering whether I should be.
30 - Tom Johnson
I do get what you mean, in general, but I think Mark mentioned not knowing that Keith Jarrett wasn't black until some point long after he'd already been listening to him. His race doesn't appear to affect his appreciation of him in any way. For me, I don't really have many images associated with the musicians I listen to, especially the jazz musicians who I don't typically see pictures of very often. I'm hearing the music and only associate names with it, if that, not faces, because I generally don't have any faces with which to associate it. Maybe I'm weird, I don't know. Well, I do know - I'm weird, but I mean in this particular case. :-)
31 - Michael J. West
Hey, I don't really know if any of what Crouch says is true. Tom, El Bicho, you may be absolutely right. Crouch may be completely full of shit, and I may be equally so for suggesting he might be worth taking seriously. But it DID seem worthwhile to just stop and examine it. :-)
32 - Mark Saleski
i agree with bicho here. the whole white/black thing so so overly reductive. there are so many ways to look at things that to pick race is just plain silly. at least right now. i'm not saying that there aren't still race issues, as there clearly are...but the idea that white critics are giving passes to white musicians is just crap. i don't care how knowledgeable he is, it's still crap.
33 - El Bicho
MJW, I was referring to the memo from Crouch not you about how whites allegedly feel according to the article you quoted.
And it is valid to be concerned and curious as to whether race affects your mindset, but you have to be careful. Trying so hard not to let race become a factor inevitably can make a race a factor.
Although not having the benefit of reading the article, I don't see that Crouch has made his point. Now if he had written his article in 1953, 1963, even 1983 as rap was coming into the mainstream, I would certainly agree about the elevation of lesser white artists over blacks due to a number of systemic racist factors, but 2003? Sorry, but I don't see it right now.
34 - Michael J. West
you have to be careful. Trying so hard not to let race become a factor inevitably can make a race a factor.
A VERY good point, Bicho, and one that bugged the Hell out of me when I was doing that review of my new best-of-'07. I wanted to make sure I didn't subtract points just because they were white. In the end, it was just too damn good for me to do so even if I'd wanted to. :-)
35 - Mark Saleski
there's no way to prove this...but i'd be willing to be that i'm colorblind about music. go ahead, hook a meter up to me.
36 - Michael J. West
Anybody got a meter?
...Anybody?
...?
37 - Donald Gibson
I think part of what's implied in this issue is how we, as listeners, appreciate music.
Personally, I prefer (and emotionally respond more to) listening to Ray Charles as opposed to Frank Sinatra. And that's certainly not a criticism of Sinatra as I recognize and enjoy his music as well. But on a gut level, if I had to choose which of the two I'd rather hear interpreting a song, I'd go with Ray.
I certainly don't know what it's like to be blind, African American, or to even have the talent to play the piano. None of those things factor into how much I love his music, though.
-Donald
38 - Pico
When listing notable white jazz musicians you guys forgot Kenny G
39 - Michael J. West
I think yo're in the wrong room, Pico - this is white jazz musicians. White ass musicians is down the hall, three doors to your right.
40 - Mark Saleski
very bad Pico! i sentence you to a week of nothing but Duotones!
41 - Michael J. West
Mark Saleski: TOUGH ON CRIME!
42 - Mark Saleski
...breakin' those stereotypes of the squishy liberal on a daily basis!!
;-)
43 - Glen Boyd
I know Kenny G. Kenny G was a friend of mine. And you sir, are no Kenny G.
From Somewhere at a Starbucks,
Christopher Cross
44 - Mark Saleski
hmmm....i think i hear the footsteps of Kenny G's Assistant.
45 - Donald Gibson
"If you get caught between the moon and New York City...I know it's crazy, but it's true."
46 - Glen Boyd
Nah, Mark. I think that's what Jeff Lorber's doing these days...
-Glen
47 - Kenny G's assistant
Kenny G would like to congratulate Paco for his good taste as most of the tone-deaf knuckle-draggers around here wouldn't know good music unless Al Barger didn't like it.
First dealing with the article, Kenny G was certainly not surprised to find West dreaming of being on a date with Crouch. He congratulates him on coming out and hope his family took it well. Aside from the lack of fashion sense, they couldn't have been surprised.
Crouch himself has an obvious basis for those that study his work, frequently elevating bald musicians far beyond their abilities. He is intimidated by men with a full head of hair because they remind him of his lost virility and masculinity. He champions older artists over the new to create an illusion to himself that he is still a young man rather than an old, bitter fool who life has passed by and eternity will soon forget, much the way same way a number of geezers and fanboys on this site think Springsteen is still happening. Kenny G doesn't need to read Freud or use the tools he learned in getting his Masters in Psychology to understand why these people identify with a song titled "Radio Nowhere".
Kenny G would also like to state that Kenny G doesn't know who Boyd is, although Kenny G is never surprised when a deranged fan tries to impress others by claiming they know famous people. When Rick Rubin worked with Kenny G on his last album, he told Kenny G about Boyd breaking into his home.
Kenny G would have responded sooner but has been busy the past couple of days discussing strategy both with the Kurds in dealing with Turkey and Josh Beckett in dealing with Cleveland.
48 - Michael J. West
God, I wish Chris Rose still did his "Comment of the Day" feature.
49 - Christopher Rose
Me too!
50 - Tom Johnson
A hex on Donald for getting that damned song stuck in my head. Not cool, man. Not cool.
51 - Pico
Preach on, Brotha Assistant.
You guys bustin' on Gorelick fail to recognize his monumental music achievement. While atonal sax players like Eric Dolphy and Albert Ayler turned people off by the droves, Mr. G was the first atonal sax player to find a wide audience. What's more, he actually convinced a good majority of them that he was playing in key, Pat Metheny's efforts to reveal this secret to his success notwithstanding.
His inclusion among the pantheon of jazz greats was cemented by his inspired pairing with a posthumous Louis Armstrong. With Madonna headed to the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, Kenny G's entry has been paved for 2009. The awards and accolades pile on, much to the chagrin of jealous, Hatorade guzzling jazz snobs.
52 - Michael J. West
Pico, you actually had me going until you called his Louis Armstrong pairing "inspired." :-)
53 - Pico
But it was inspired! By either his accountant or his record company ;&)
54 - Tom Johnson
I've had to hear KG's mauling of Armstrong at least twice while sitting in doctor's waiting rooms lately (and that's in addition to a whole host of other "jazz" atrocities.) I feel really sorry for the people who work in offices constantly under attack from the quiet burble of lite-jazz stations - they have to listen to that turgid crap all day long, every day, every week . . . I guess they must learn to tune it out after a while, but I imagine there's a point every one of them reaches just before that "tuning out" where they think they're going to go insane.
55 - Al Barger
Oh Jumpin' Jebus on a Pogo Stick, Monsieur West. Regardless of whether one agrees with Stanley Crouch or not, he can't simply be dismissed. Sure he can, if he's saying something just foolish. Mr Crouch may be knowledgeable about music, but that doesn't mean he's Sigmund Frickin' Freud who knows about the special secret dark psychology of white jazz critics.
If anything, I'd expect the white critics to be a little extra skeptical of the white boys, being concerned with authenticity or exactly the kind of nagging white guilt and insecurity you display in this column.
I'm sure some would call me delusional or worse, but I don't much see the race thing as having any substantial impact on my perceptions of music, at least not 99% of the time - hardly at all with any kind of instrumental music certainly. Inevitably, some bit of political or racial sensibilities will enter in now and then dealing with something that is real specifically racially charged in a lyrical manner - Public Enemy or in a very different way someone like Snoop Dogg.
I understand in theory that, say, Miles Davis was black and had black guy issues that shaped his sensibilities and such. But that means jack squat to me when I'm blasting the Bitch's Brew out the car.
You properly intend to disregard the race of the players when you listen to a record. Likewise, you should quit fretting about being a white jazz fan, and properly disregard your own racial insecurities. They won't do anything to improve your critical judgment of music. They'll just make you crazy and start you second guessing your own best judgment.