A long time ago, back before The Ramones could count to 4, before the Black Flag so proudly waved, before The Clash had enough rope, before X marked the spot and before the Sex Pistols backfired punk was knocking at the door. Now in 2005 "Punk" is just another genre in your local music emporium. A product to be bought and sold at the local mall.…
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26 - HW Saxton
A quick word of explanation to all here
this may concern. This post wasn't/isn't
about me being into punk before you or
anyone else.I likely was but that is a
whole different story for a another day.
I started going to punk shows in 1976 &
saw The Ramones on the"Leave Home Tour".
This was to be a lead in to who I feel
are the first rockers from back in the
1950's to hit upon the punk ethos.I do
not think it's that new of a genre in as
far as attitude or ideology.
This was posted pre-maturely on accident
by Eric. So what you are reading here
is only half of a post.After I finish it
& post the conclusion this weekend I'll
gladly field any & all questions and all
love/hate mail.
PS: Dave, Who's Brunel? I was speaking
of the surrealist/artist/film maker Luis
Bunuel. But what does one's choice of
reading material have to do with your
credibility as a Punk Rocker? I read
across the board from Dr Seuss to Howard
Zinn,from the Bible to Bukowski.I don't
see what this has to do with my musical
taste though. I'd also be kind of hard
pressed to call the DK's an "Art" band.
They definitely tried incorporating some
different sounds into their music and by
all means Jello could be pretentious as
all hell(but funny & insightful too)but
I couldn't call them an art band in the
same way I'd call Devo an "Art" band.
Anyway thanks for reading and stay
tuned for Pt 2 of this piece Okey Dokey?
Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel...
27 - Douglas Mays
Who was a punk first? I dunno, I hear stories of my dead grandpa who was an alcholic who would stand on the seat of his Indian motorcycle (say in the 40s)and be obnoxious.
Punk goes on way before rock n roll. Attilla the Hun for that matter. Caliglia? OK, Jerry Lee Lewis, Elvis-the punk you could bring home to mother...
This is really a subjective question....
28 - Eric Berlin
Right. Were Fitzgerald and Hemingway the punks of their day? It's all relative within the culture and morality and thinking of an era.
Was Shakespeare punk? It's an interesting question.
29 - Eric Olsen
HW, pt 2 looks like it isn't finished yet - is this right?
30 - HW Saxton
Cerulean, you are lucky that you did not
have the L.A. police to deal with.It was
hard enough just looking the way we did
and getting hassled by jocks, metalheads
surfer types & basically anyone that was
not a punk.For some reason the cops in
LA declared war on Punk Rock for awhile.
There were several major riots, serious
beatings meted out to punkers male and
female! Closing shows for no reason at
all which of course provoked more melees
that the cops were all too happy to
oblige you in. Scary stuff for a while.
There were not that many people into at
the onset in the late 70's but by the
time I got out of it in the early 80's
there were thousands of kids into and it
(punk clothes etc)could be bought at
the mall.Usually we would go to a thrift
store or army surplus place as they were
very cheap and the whole D.I.Y ethic was
half the fun.
Eric, Pt 2 is done. I sent you a e-mail
late this afternoon so you can post it
whenever you feel like it.
31 - Dave Nalle
Snark: "It's BUNUEL, son. And no, anyone who opened a film with a closeup of a razor blade cutting an eyeball automatically gets inducted into the Punk Hall of Fame."
Ooh, sorry. I made a typo. And what you're describing is avant garde, not punk.
Dave
32 - godoggo
What on god's green earth is wrong with you, Nalle?
33 - godoggo
My "old punk" friends used to talk about "the Old Vex," as opposed to the the "New Vex," both of which were before my time, although I did go to the former once when it was briefly reoppened. I didn't actually go in, though, but rather tried to sneak in with my friends. We tried twice, failed twice. The bouncer who stopped us was Carlos Guitarlos. He was nice the first time, pissed the second time. I also went there a few years later for a super 8 movie class in college, to film my friend Glen posing naked in the parking lot. Ah, education.
34 - gonzo marx
HW makes some great points here..
"punk" and "hardcore" are really Attitudes and approaches to everything in life...not just music
once music is "defined" into some stylized "scene" it has already become a Pose and a commodity
just my one sixth billionths of the world's Opinion..
your mileage may vary..
Excelsior!
35 - HW Saxton
godoggo, The original Vex at Brooklyn &
Gage over on the East Side (anything
east of 6th St was a strictly chicano
neighborhood) was closed after a Black
Flag show that a bunch of Huntington
Beach assholes had a riot at and broke
out windows, threw chairs out of windows
etc. It was the home to many great gigs
from a lot of chicano punk bands Plugz,
Stains,Los Illegals,Undertakers etc.
They kept The Vex going in a new place
in the Paramount Ballroom on Brooklyn
also. The Paramount was home to huge
dance parties concerts from the East LA
60's scenes. Cannibal & The Headhunters
Premiers,Blendells etc. It didn't last
long either though. The punks behaved
like assholes for the most part & some
one got shot there one night while
spray painting punk grafitti over some
gang grafitti.A big no no in East LA.
Very rough neighbrhood but they did pull
off some great shows at both venues.
Man that was like a long long long time
ago. PS: Carlos put out a phenomenally
good solo record about 2 or 3 years ago
that is worth picking up.
36 - godoggo
I remember there was briefly a punk club in Watts, of all places, whose name escapes me - it was a man's name. I saw the Misfits there. The locals were nice enough to patrol the area in order to protect these crazy white kids.
I must say, though, that I've never particularly felt unsafe anywhere in LA during the daytime.
"Punk" was originally coined, god knows by whom, to describe a lot of disparate stuff, including much that would be considered "new wave" nowadays. Its meaning has changed over time. This is typical of genre names.
37 - Thad Anderson
Great post. It is definitely funny the way "punk" means so many things now. When I was 15 or 16, I got really into bands like Dinosaur Jr. and Superchunk, who I thought were very "punk" or "indie rock" - much cooler than the "Home of Classic Rock" station I had grown up listening to every day.
And then I realized that Dinosaur Jr. sounded almost exactly like mid-70's Neil Young, and Superchunk started trying to sound like Television, the late-70's punk band that had obviously listened to the Byrds as much as they listened to the Stooges.
Now I just listen to "rock," having long ago given up on prefixes.
38 - adam
Punk: the DKs, Sex Pistols, Stooges ... and, out of the pre-punk old rockers, Jerry Lee Lewis! Punk was working class and DIY, and in England, pretty much a rebellion against overblown, pretentious art rock. But also very heady surrealist, so DADA is part of it. Not giving a shit AT ALL. Pretty vacant. It's interesting the ways American Punk and British Punk are different. Maybe you can take that on after your much-anticipated Post 2, Saxton? Magfucknificent post.
39 - mike hollihan
Punk started out spontaneously in a lot of places across America as a reaction to the prevailing musics of the day: 70's singer-songwriter, stoner California rock; English, blues-based cock rock; prog rock. These bands bubbled along mostly unknowing of each other, even in the same city sometimes. I remember Trouser Press magazine being one of the few places you could read about it early on.
I think you can make a good argument that punk rock died in the wake of the Ramones tour of England in 1976. The British band explosion quickly got codified and commidified, picked up by their music press and then resold back to America.
Most American punk rockers from 1974 to 1976 were kids from dying industrial cities and decaying big cities. Their music either reflected (Pere Ubu) or reacted against that. It was the Sex Pistols hype that brought punk to the attention of middle America and launched all the spiked hair, ripped jeans, leather, etc.
Look at the incredible variety of music in 1974 -1976 American punk and then compare it to the post-Pistol's punk music. The "sound" was commidified.
40 - mike hollihan
Oooh! That's not to leave out the seminal influence of Iggy Pop and the Stooges. In the same way that a lot of kids picked up guitars and started bands in the Sixties trying to be the Beatles and the Stones, a few kids in the Seventies wanted to be the Stooges. Remember: Cleveland's Rocket From the Tombs begat two bands: Pere Ubu and the Dead Boys.
41 - Shark
Just to add to the historical (reaction) theory:
punk was also a result of testosterone-crazed boys with no future who wanted to play in a rock band -- yet lacked the ability to play more than 3 chords.
Wait! That should probably be the dictionary definition of Punk! Wow!
"PUNK: 1) testosterone crazed boys with no future who want to play in a rock band yet lack the ability to play more than 3 chords."
42 - Shark
re: DaveNalle and Bunuel -
Dave, yer such a dick.
xxoo
S
43 - Dave Nalle
Thanks Snark. I love you too. Pity you have the intellect of a gnat and the morals of a Nigerian spammer.
Dave
44 - marty thau
HW, you sound like the guy who is locked in time to the music he made out to in the back seat of his father's car.
Punk is very much alive today. Styles change, issues change --take a closer look HW and you might conclude that punk lives and is, in fact, quite healthy. In fact, one might say it's the only healthy corner of rock 'n' roll. In Europe it's hotter than anything else. Today's punk music is simply different than yesterday's version. You gotta roll with the times.
45 - HW Saxton
Mr.Marty Thau,How nice to hear from you.
How about releasing a Suicide:Best Of...
set with the harder to find tracks off
of the later records like:"Be Bop Kid",
"Harlem", "Rock N Roll Rebel",etc?
I always wanted to ask you that question
so with that out if the way... You just
really couldn't have me more wrong about
"Punk". I actually do like some of the
new stuff and some of it is rather awful
and embarassing.This is applicable to
older punk stuff too.Some of it holds up
& some is so dated and awful.Just plain
embarssingly bad.
I saw The Dictators two years ago and
they were phenomenal,I mean just fucking
incredibly good!On par energy wise with
The Who,Ramones,early Van Halen,Stones,
just plain intense what a great show !!!
I saw Blondie a couple years back and
was very embarassed for Debbie & band on
the other hand.
I know it's (PUNK) still very much alive
and that is my main complaint about it.
As a genre it seemed so limited in so
many ways & there's only so many things
you can play before you are repeating
older bands and /or yourself. Electric
Frankenstein may be a fine band but if
you have The Dead Boys records what's
the point in listening to E.F ? Rancid:
Ditto,You can play Clash/Stiff Little
Fingers etc.It all boils down to your
own personal taste and how much you like
the genre in the first place.I grew out
of,got bored with and moved on past punk
music in the early part of the 80's.
I guess I just don't feel the need for
it anymore, musically speaking. I like
the energy of it and the D.I.Y ethic of
it. But with it being such a commercial
commodity it has lost that sense of the
urgency and rawness that appealed to me
as much as the music it self ever did.
Anyway, I just don't hear much in "New"
('85 to the present) Punk Rock that does
much of anything for me. I was lucky to
grow up on The Dolls,Stooges,Lou Reed &
Rock Scene,Crawdaddy,Creem ,etc before
The Ramones,Sex Pistols,Heartbreakers,
West Coast Hardcore,etc came around.
Most of the new bands I hear are just
rehashing to varying degrees, stuff that
has already been done before. I see Pop
music in general as temporary music and
nothing to get nostalgic over.It was a
soundtrack for a point in time that was
relevant when it was happening but that
does not have much staying power or any
kind of timeless quality about it.
The energy of the music was alawys a
big draw for me but these days I draw
upon my Fela, JB's, John Lee Hooker and
other assorted Funk,Blues,Afrobeat,R & B
etc records and CD's for my energy fix.
It feels like getting swept up in a wave
of enthusiasm as opposed to getting cold
cocked with a sledgehammer which is how
I feel after hearing The Ramones or The
Damned or something similar.
Also, in closing this post wasn't about
what I don't like about Punk per se. It
was about where I feel some the musical
roots of punk lay.It was accidentally
published before I had finished it,so it
actually reads different than how it was
meant to read. Well thanks for writing
and I'm serious about the Suicide set.It
would be nice to have all that stuff on
one disc.Personally I have all the LP's,
'12 of "Dream Baby Dream", Alan Vega's
"Juebox Baby" EP etc. But most people
don't and it would introduce them to one
of the least known & highly influential
bands to change the face of music in the
late 70's/early 80's. I've got friends
who are Hip Hop DJ's that I turned on to
Suicide. They now use Suicide samples in
their club sets.It works so good that ya
wouldn't believe it!
46 - SFC SKI
Cranky Old Man's Lament "Most of the new bands I hear are just
rehashing to varying degrees, stuff that
has already been done before."
My sentiments exactly, there is little new in music to me, because I have been listening to music for 30 years. That isn't to say that there aren't some great new bands out there in any genre, I just don't get as excited about them as someone half my age might. To them the music IS new, of course.
47 - HW Saxton
SFC Ski, That is an excellent point. If
I didn't have the reference points of
The Ramones,Buzzcocks,Clash,D.O.A,Stiff
Little Fingers, then I might just enjoy
a lot more "new" punk rock stuff because
it would sound "New" to me. But I do and
It don't.
I wanted to ask you this:I have been to
strange places in the world and I found
people who were into Rock N Roll. Haiti,
Indian reservations in the middle of the
Sonoran desert in Mexico,small towns in
the Phillipines,etc.Is there any kind of
Underground market for American Rock and
Roll in Iraq & the Middle East? Curious.
48 - SFC SKI
To my knowledge there is no Arab garage band figuring out "Louie Louie" but we can always hope.
The western part of the Arab world, the Maghred, has a lot more western-style mixed with Arabic, but it is still a bit more dance or dub style music. The style of Arabic music and singing lends itself more to that style than staccato punk does.
I have heard of an underground rock/punk scene in Morocco, but haven't found any recordings yet.
Rock is definitely not mainstream, and in places like Qatar or Bahrain, the music I heard coming out of kids cars was more rap/drum n' bass.
Wonder of wonders, I was able to buy Led Zep and Guns and Roses cassettes years ago in both Saudi Arabia and the UAE, in places that were not tourist shoips, so someone else must be buying the stuff.
49 - SFC SKI
I forgot to mention that Lebanon has a pretty big music scene, but it is more pop oriented in the worst sense of the word (though the women who sing it are damn pretty, and that can cover a multitude of sins).
50 - gonzo marx
as i stated earlier..
it's the difference between pioneers , and those that claim a style/genre as an Influence..
once it becomes a Pose, or a format...rather than Originalist energy..any "format" loses me in translation
hence my "love" for Motorhead rather than later "speed" stuff..
i had always liked Rush better than Led Zeppelin...in the latter i could hear T-Bone Walker, Muddy Waters etc...from Rush it was all new...
i do like some of Green Day's stuff, but would rathe rlisten to the Stooges or Ramones...
Pantera owns the "heavy category" for me...with Tool scratching my current "itch"
but you get my point, eh?
Excelsior!
51 - HW Saxton
SFC Ski, I have heard some heavy funky
dub influenced dance music from the Mid
East such as DJ Shoe. I figured it was
the West African Afro-beat influence &
influences brought back from W. Europe
possibly by students studying abroad.
Also Ethiopia has a big music scene that
is heavily funk and HipHop influenced.
I know it's an area heavily Christian
influenced but I guessed with it's very
close proximity that the influence might
spread to nearby Arabic countries. Rock
is so ubiquitous that I guessed it has
to be around the Moslem world in some
form. Thanks for responding.
52 - HW Saxton
I'm totally flattered. Thanks much Eric
and Temple! I really appreciate it. And
I'd also like to thank all of the little
people that I had to grind under my boot
heel on the way to the top.Thanks again!
TS and Eric, I'm stoked!
53 - Temple Stark
What a card LOL. And we seem to be a pretty picky lot of editors, so it is meant to acknowledge something way above the rest, in impact or writing or most likely both.
54 - HW Saxton
In all seriousness,I totally acknowledge
that. Which makes it all the more of a
compliment to me,TS. Again Thanx much.
55 - alienboy
I haven't read ALL the comments here, there's far too many for that, but I would like to point out that, beyond HW's excellent post, it is also necessary to point out that Punk Rock USA stle was, and still is, a pale shadow of the British punk movement.
Whether you want to talk about the seriously Anarchic groups like Crass and the Poison Girls or any number of bands who were a little less political and a little more arty like The Slits or Buzzcocks, the British punk scene was the real heart of the entire punk movement.
Sadly, Punk got washed away in the early 80s and nothing significant remains today. But for a while there it was the greatest flowering of art, rebellion, politics, wild sex and drugs there has ever been. Rock music has never been the same again, and probably never will be as it's creativity seems to continue plumbing new depths...
56 - uao
Great article, HW. I agree that punk as an attitude goes back to the 50's; it's almost tempting to call Link Wray and Jerry Lee Lewis "punk"
I was entering adolescence during the punk era, so I wasn't looking for kindred angry spirits in bars. But the kindred spirits in my school, misfits and outsiders all, found each other. I remember the punk years spent in dusty basement record shops in Greenwich Village while cutting school, while the portly, bearded owner played the Stranglers loud.
Or listening to Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables really late at night, and feeling very diassociated from the mainstream culture and climate at large; punk for me represented not just angst and delinquency, but also community and political activism. In New York, it was a very tolerant community, by and large; all manner of misfits and outsiders were accepted.
So it was a universe of kindred spirits. Good point.
57 - Douglas Mays
uao, you bring up a point I found about the punk movement. I went thru it here in Seattle and I really liked the sense of community and tolerance.
Example. The punk movement was great for people who were, say, fat or had birthmarks on their face or something. By going punk they found acceptance of theirselves and acceptance by others.
Well, tolerance for Reagan (Raygun) and other social injustices, there was none of that...
peaceloveguidance
58 - godoggo
"punk was also a result of testosterone-crazed boys with no future who wanted to play in a rock band -- yet lacked the ability to play more than 3 chords"
Billy Zoom
59 - karen
You suck! You assume that anyone under the age of 30 has no clue what punk is. I cant help it if i was born in the 80's. There are a lot of kids still very much into the DIY hardcore punk scene today that never step a foot into a mall to buy their clothes.
This is ageism at its best.
60 - HW Saxton
I SUCK!!!???? Aw c'mon,be nice toots. If you can
find where I said anyone under age 30 has no clue
about what punk is then please step forward 'kay?
My point was that basically "PUNK" is really not
all that new and has undeniably became another
saleable commodity at the local mall. Undeniable
and factual. It is just another genre of music
as is Reggae,Jazz,Black Metal,Afrobeat,Swing etc,
etc,etc and so on & so on.
Glad ya like fast loud sounds and all and you buy
your "Punk" clothes at somewhere besides a mall.
But please learn to read and comprehend a little
bit more carefully in the future. Kids,sheesh...
61 - Frank
Anybody have pictures for purchase of the New vex shows, venues, and any historical stuff for posting on a history of the paramount ballroom? [Personal contact info deleted]
62 - Seth Borden
We Have some pictures of the new Vex shows on our site. Joe and I have some more amazing events lined up. Check out the site.
Seth
63 - Brian aka Guppusmaximus
(A little late,but) Nice Article!
I felt your passion and I have also felt this way about Metal. BUT, I can say,for me, I was bitten by the Punk bug in the 90's. Boston ,in the 90's, had an absolutely amazing supportive scene and we had some killer bands:
Dropkick Murphys (Still rockin)
The Showcase Showdown
The Ducky Boys
The Bruisers(N.H.)
The Unseen
Darkbuster
Plus some really cool out of state bands:
U.S. Bombs
Choking Victim
Voodoo Glow Skulls
And, you're right, it was all about a movement which I thought was impossible because of all the people who had to look "PunK". Though, I had a friend that looked about as Punk as John Madden but he was a die hard fan of the music. He knew bands and their perspective histories, he also was a editor for a fanzine and he interviewed all these bands. This was the guy that got me hooked because he listened to so much Punk!!