I'm the guy who goes straight for your record collection when invited to dinner.
I confess to being a bit of a "music snob" in a former life.…
"A sinister cabal of superior writers."
I'm the guy who goes straight for your record collection when invited to dinner.
I confess to being a bit of a "music snob" in a former life.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Guppusmaximus
Well,Mr. West, I'm sorry you couldn't perceive the sarcasm in my post. Yes, Metal is my all time favorite music which only 5% of the BC community actually understands(And you have no clue!),but just to please you, how about:
Michael Manring
Ken Bonfield
Andre Segovia
Christopher Parkening
Yes
George Winston
Blake Shelton
Mark Knofler(spelling?)
Michael Hedges
I think that's a pretty substanial list. Would you like me to continue??...Jackass...
27 - Guppusmaximus
And...NO, I wasn't trying to "One up" anyone here. If you don't know who Michael Manring or Ken Bonfield is then STOP relying on The Billboard charts as your sole info on "Good" Music...
28 - Mark Saleski
roth's quote ("The reason rock critics like Elvis Costello more than Van Halen is because rock critics look like Elvis Costello and want to party like Van Halen.") was pretty much rendered moot with Costello's marriage to Diana Krall.
29 - Mark Saleski
Some obscure stuff is crap. Some really popular stuff is flippin' great.
what i find annoying is the idea that nothing popular can be good. THAT is snobbery.
30 - Mark Saleski
who's Ken Bonfield?
31 - Michael J. West
Mark, Ken Bonfield is a new age musician. So are Michael Manring, Michael Hedges, and George Winston.
Guppus, I don't think that anyone on this thread could be accused of relying on the Billboard charts as their sole info on "Good" music. If that's what you got from this post and/or thread, perhaps you should re-read it. You might also want to read the comments policy.
32 - Mark Saleski
yea, i know who the other guys are. i checked out Bonfield. sounds like Alex DeGrassi. sorta.
i'd talk more, but i've got some crap music to go listen to.
33 - Guppusmaximus
Ken Bonfield
34 - Eric Olsen
I'm not sure how many fucking times we have to ask people not to post naked URLs - I guess one more time:
DON'T POST FUCKING NAKED URLS IN COMMENTS OR STORIES.
Thanks
35 - Guppusmaximus
Actually that's what I get from your comments,Mike(not from the article or from other people)...Any and everytime you posted one in response to any of my comments.
Ken Bonfield and George Winston aren't new age... Ken Bonfield fuses alot of different styles with his instrumental folk music and George winston is just a brilliant piano player. Lumping artists together in one genre doesn't necessarily explain to people what the music is like and just by using that term, some people would probably be turned off due to the likes of Yanni and others.
But I think that's what you've done when we have discussed "Heavy" Metal as well...Haven't you?
Anyways, I didn't come here today to explain the basics to someone like you...
-Peace..
36 - Guppusmaximus
Yeah... Thanks for the Fucking explanation. Please direct me to where I can learn how not to post naked Fucking URLs because were all not Fucking computer nerds when it comes to Fucking posting.
37 - Mark Saleski
here is an easy to follow explanation of html links (called anchor's).
38 - Rodney Welch
What you describe as a "music snob" usually tends to be a pseudointellectual -- someone whose opinions as to what's cool and what isn't are usually borrowed from some critic he read, the same way a lot of people do with books or movies. It's the art of passionless insincerity about everything. And you get no points from me for knowing Pete Hamill's horribly embarrassing liner notes to Blood on the Tracks. They're almost as bad as Dylan's liner notes, which is really saying something. In case you've forgotten them, they're still could for a laugh or twelve.
39 - Mark Saleski
holy crap! i've never read that! the first paragraph alone reads like Pynchon on acid. or something.
40 - Rodney Welch
I think that's the effect he was aiming for. Hamill had clearly been reading too much Pynchon or Ginsberg -- which may be why Dylan actually hired Ginsberg to do the notes for Desire. I imagine both writers were hired with the stipulation "Write whatever dope-enhanced shit you want, guys, just make sure you worship and adore me and generally treat me like the fucking Oracle of Delphi."
41 - Michael J. West
Even worse, Hamill won a Grammy for those liner notes. As if the Grammies could be any less legitimate.
42 - Michael J. West
You got the idea that I get my idea of good music off of the Billboard charts, Guppus? Care to provide some example of that?
43 - J. P. Spencer
Great article, and I completely understand what you're going through.
You want ridiculous liner notes? Go find the over-apologetic, overly-optimistic liner notes to "Moby Grape '69" by David Rubinson. A few months later, they were down to a three-piece and promptly disappeared. Good album though.
44 - DJRadiohead
Glen, this is really good. I am glad I can take the tiniest bit of credit in the inspiration department. Heh. You did well. I am not recovering from my snobbery but rather reveling in it.
45 - Glen Boyd
Thanx DJ. I also thought your thing on Petty (the stuff in the comments section is what gave me this idea) was very well thought out. Looking forward to more in that series.
Now if we can just get these other people to satop fighting with each other...LOL....
46 - Mat Brewster
DON'T POST FUCKING NAKED URLS IN COMMENTS OR STORIES.
Naked URLs? Ah man, I usually have to pay $19.95/month for those.
47 - zingzing
oh mike... don't argue with the big guppy. it's just not worth it. he never really listens anyway. if he thinks you get your music from the charts (do the charts sell music these days?) let him go ahead thinking that. he's just lucky that his beloved metal doesn't tend to chart these days.
you know... you don't understand metal, mike. or do you? parts of that lightning bolt could qualify. i suppose. i'm pretty sure that i've seen some metal in your boxes.
and, come on... mark knofler? i would rather listen to an audiotape of myself jerking it... same effect. okay, okay, he's not so bad. kind of tasteful in his own way. you can just see a bit of sperm leaking out of the neck of his guitar. and yes? YES?! more wankery. i begin to think that the guppy values instrumental prowess over actual emotion or songwriting. and there you see the problem.
48 - Guppusmaximus
Mike, Not like I have all day to sort through the archives for comments,but funny enough I found this on your website...
"So it's like this: I'm a writer by profession, and a music-writer by aspiration. Well...more of a popular music historian, really..."
So, are you doing this for the money or do you think pop music is good stuff?? If so, then the Billboard charts are your bible...Aren't they?
Oh..BTW, Michael Manring would be considered very progressive/fusion for a bassist, more along the lines of Victor Wooten but you would've had to listen to his work to figure that out...Try "Thonk","Equilibre" and his work with Attention Deficit,"Idiot King"
49 - Brian Sorrell
This isn't music snobbery or musicology or anything of the like. This is all names and no content. No one has said a word about what makes any of these obscure artists better than anyone else -- from a MUSICAL standpoint.
It can be as innocuous as "Black Sabbath rocked because no one had ever played drums like that ...." (about the musicians)
Or "Rufus Wainwright's genius consists in his retention of the dynamics of his songs, rather than compress compress compress in the studio." (about the recording)
Or "Tom Waits' lyrics are brilliant because they attempt to inspire feeling in the listener, rather than report on the feelings of the singer." (about the writing)
The author of this piece offers no reason to think ill of ELO or Journey or late U2 or Sting, etc.
Sure, know your history, but please have something to say about it.
50 - Guppusmaximus
zingzing... Why would you say such things...huh?? Instrumental Prowess...Well seeing that a good portion of the music I like is actually instrumental wouldn't these artists have to convey their emotion with an instrument? I don't think you have that prowess with your junk though,do you.
You only commented on one of the artists listed, is that because you haven't heard the others? If so, then 1 out of 8 ain't bad.
Or maybe it's 2 out of 3 ain't bad...huh Mike?
51 - Michael J. West
Guppus,
So, are you doing this for the money or do you think pop music is good stuff??
Neither.
For one thing, you misunderstand my meaning in the phrase "popular music." I'm not talking about what's on the radio. Popular music is a term used in music-academic circles to mean "All music that isn't classical." That means I listen to and write about all kinds of rock, jazz, country, blues, hip-hop, R&B, folk, electronic, dance, avant-garde, and improvisational music. (I actually explained this on my blog.)
But even so, there is some pop music that IS good stuff. My sole source of info on which music is good and which is bad would be...my ears.
Relying, as you say, "relying on The Billboard charts as your info on 'Good' Music..." is not really any worse than relying on the charts as your info on "Bad" Music.
52 - Vern Halen
Perhaps the assumption is that posters on this thread actually know their history - at least that would be my impression after reading the regular contributors for quite some time, now.
53 - zingzing
oh, i say such things because i just can. sure, if the music is instrumental, the musician better be able to convey the emotion through the instrument, but that doesn't stop yes or mark knofler or those new agish musicians you note from only being able to be emotionally involved with how well they can play their own instruments. some of the best instrumentalists are the most brutal and basic. steve albini is a far better guitar player than... i dunno... that uwe mengalstein or whatever. megulwiniggins. some swede or something. lou reed kicks jimi's ass. even if jimi was good. the bass solo is only beaten by the drum solo as the lowest form of human musical expression. the guitar solo is almost that low. restraint is a virtue. a single guitar note can display emotion far more clearly than a messy bit of guitar stroking.
and, while mike can defend himself quite well, your little "the Billboard charts are your bible..." bit is total bullshit. "popular music" does not, repeat does not, mean "music that charted on billboard." it means "music consumed by the people." in other words, he's not going to go into classical music too much. and yes, pop music is good stuff. yes is pop. mark knofler, in case you forgot, was in a little band called dire straights... which was quite popular. hell, even iron maiden is pop music. almost everything is pop. there's no way around it. if you know about it, and you aren't good friends with the band, then some bit of the pop culture had to know about it and tell you about it.
i've heard of most of the artists that you list. i haven't listened to all of them. mike commented on some, i comment on others (i commented on 2).
and yes, i have quite a bit of prowess with my junk. thank you.
54 - Brian Sorrell
"the bass solo is only beaten by the drum solo as the lowest form of human musical expression."
Mingus would crush you with his pinky. Witness his intro to "Haitian Fight Song" -- ah the Prestissimo and Crecendo! Impeccable technique, style, and his ear for a hook -- mmmm, you'll get it in your soul.
Stanton Moore and Garage A Trois would change your tune about the role of solo percussion too. Moore throws down a funky New Orleans jam, Mike D follows with his eclectic conga interpretation, and Charlie Hunter rounds it out when he switches to pandeiro. Dazzling stuff.
I take it that you've never seen taiko drummers either.
This thread is stuck on the friges of popular music: you have yet to travel underground or around the world.
Yeah, "musicologists". Umm hmm.
55 - nugget
yea. zingzing is talking out of his ass.
56 - nugget
yea, did you folks know that people actually go to school and get degrees in "Musicology?" Like PH Ds n stuff?
Self-proclaimed "musicologists" are HI-larious.
57 - Rodney Welch
And don't forget Max Roach.
58 - Michael J. West
This is the kind of "musicologist" that we're basically talking about here. :-)
And as long as we're mentioning those who do elevate drum soloing to fine art, I crown Art Blakey the king.
59 - Morgan
Damn - what are you gonna do with me? I can't listen to Usher or Alicia Keyes but can't put my Otis Redding and Marvin Gaye CDs away. Andy Bey is a genius and people should be listening to him instead of Michael Buble. I still pull out my Best of 10 Years After once a week. Have every Elvis Costello cd. Hate Celine Dion. And love Clay Aiken's voice. Snob/No Snob. It's just music man.
60 - zingzing
my comments only pertain to rock or pop music. it's pretty damn obvious that if the music is 100% drums, "drum solo" has nothing to do with it. in jazz, solos are exempt from my comments, because they are a part of the music, the structure, while in rock or pop, they are just pretention.
and mr. sorrell, don't start accusing people you don't know of having simplistic, surface only taste in music. you obviously don't know what kind of music i listen to. now, i will admit that i lag on various world musics, but then again, i'm not very entertained by most folk musics. still, i probably have 50-100 discs of non-north american or european music. so there. i won't go into how "underground" i am or not, but, suffice to say... i know "my" shit, which is prolly different from "your" shit.
still, i must say that I DON'T LIKE SOLOS (even guitar solos really) IN POP OR ROCK MUSIC! it's a waste of time. of course, there are some exceptions. but it's very very rare that a bass solo or a drum solo really do much for me. maybe the bass solo from that violent femmes song... "kiss off" maybe? i don't remember. no... it was 'blister' wasn't it? fuck it.
61 - zingzing
and, for the record, my favorite album released so far this year has to be Liars "drum's not dead," which is pretty much all drums and a bit of guitar noise. most of the music could be considered one long drum solo... but it doesn't really count as such.
62 - Brian Sorrell
zingzing cut back on the coffee or something dude. I'm just saying this has been all names and no content. There is no "your" shit and "my" shit.
I agree that I have no idea what kind of music you listen to. The content of your collection don't matter a whit.
I'm still just sayin' that there are lots of names of things here, but very little talk about what makes those things interesting.
So relax man. Chat about what fires you up about the tunes you like. I, for one, would like to hear.
63 - Michael J. West
Andy Bey is un-fucking-believable. I never knew that jazz could have that kind of dark atmospheric feel to it; nor would I ever have guessed that all it took to make that dark atmosphere was a baritone singing voice. He is (I know this is a shallow comparison, but bear with me) America's answer to David Sylvian.
64 - zingzing
oh, sorry brian sorrell... i was arguing with a large guppy and you got caught in the crossfire.
name dropping is the sign and symbol of the music snob. like the original post says, say a name and a music snob will just say another.
so, both to maintain my membership, and to appease your request, i will say two names: excepter and the blue nile.
(as in, two bands i have been listening to lately)
i like them both for the same reason, even if they come from completely opposite ends of the spectrum. excepter is pretty much improvised noise with some mumbled/delayed vocals. most of the music is made on synths and drum machines, and the tone is usually dark or mysterious... but somehow, excepter seems to find an emotional core, and that emotional core also reveals their sense of humor. you can tell they are having fun making this... very mercurial, unfamiliar music. it allows you to have fun. there is never really a steady beat, or any real melodic content... but there are enough hints of both to allow you to create the rest... or to dig deeper into the music to try to understand it on whatever terms you desire. they really make you listen to music, just to make sense of it... and there always seems to be something there. not a single one of their records sounds the same, even if they are very easy to pick out.
the blue nile also uses synths and drum machines to make highly emotional music. strange thing is, they do it from an almost michael bol*on level of adult-contempop. the singer kind of warbles along, cliches are picked up and destroyed one after another, lyrically and musically. they use the familiar to create music that hits so deep, it trancends the familiarity. most of their songs are love songs. instead of a tired retread of cliched lines and musical flourishes, there is a restraint and sense of timing that only serves to heighten the emotional impact... to the point where listening to one of their love songs feels like being in love. which, as everyone knows, feels just great. being in love at the same time just makes it better. or worse. sometimes blue nile can be hard to take. it's brutal stuff.
65 - Guppusmaximus
I can appreciate experimental...I'm not an expert at the genre because I have only listened to some of Mike Patton's work and maybe some other stuff with his contributions. But this crap about someone not having enough emotion even though they have spent a good amount of time mastering their instrument is f*cking bullshit and comes from people like you who couldn't play a like of what Malnstein,Mizzigida...MALMSTEIN plays.
Yeah, Mark Knofler sux...LOL, But Blue Nile is better because they play with computers.Their not pretentious because they make noise. So, I should be attacked because I prefer people who can break the same boundaries as your synth crap but they do it with real instruments? Hmmm...Spend my time with drums(20 years) and have some limitations or spend 1 year with a drum machine and have no real sense of playing any instruments?? This is the true question...
I will stick with my original comment..
"There is GOOD music in every genre and then there are bands that need to pack it in. Wether or not you can hear the difference isn't my problem...." That's great that people can name a trillion bands but do they really listen to them? Do you they truly understand what's going on?
CYA
66 - Steve
Hey, MJ, I was always a fan of Sylvian's band, Japan, but am only familiar with his earliest solo material. Have you heard any of his more recent stuff?? What's it sound like? Pretty much the same as the early stuff??
67 - zingzing
mastering an instrument does not mean that you can convey emotion. it might, and often does, have the opposite effect. of course i can't play guitar like malmstein. wouldn't want to. you can't either. so what's your point? malmstein doesn't do it for me. neither does clapton. if the only people that understand malmstein are those that can play like him...
fuck that. communication is far more important than virtuosity. if you can't see the plain truth in that, there is no point arguing. you know, i love prince, the man is a genius, but when he goes off on an extended guitar solo... i lose the point. now and then, he gets away with it; more often than not, however, it's only him that getts off on those fucking snoozefests.
rock is supposed to be rough. if it's too smooth or too easy, it loses power. endless soloing is dull. it's just a matter of taste, i suppose. compare faith no more to mr. bungle. which one does it for you? the slick pop-metal of fnm (which i think is okay), or the experimental genre car crashes of mr. bungle? what about fantomas? if i had to listen to just one mike patton related album at the expense of all the others, it would probably be the first fantomas, just because there are so many layers and changes and... bits of utter strangeness... but i don't know if i could live without california or disco volante either...
i spoke about blue nile and excepter because that's two bands i've been listening to lately. (i've also been listening to a lot of doc watson...) the guy from excepter used to be in no neck blues band, which uses almost all "real" instruments (a bullshit qualifier... what's an instrument? something that makes music...). i was pointing out that it is quite amazing when a band can drag that much emotion out of synths. it's just what i've been listening to lately. i was responding to someone else, not you.
i'm not saying anything is better because it was made on synths--i don't give a fuck about such things--and your response kind of shows the limits of your appreciation of music. you put rules on things. some of us can name plenty of bands that we actually listen to. can you?
68 - Michael J. West
No way, Steve. I mean, the basics are still there--the crooning voice and slow-as-molasses pace--but he's moved away from the jazzy stuff into more minimal, drony, music-concrete type of stuff. More experimental, if you like. :-)
69 - Steve
OK, MJ, thanks for that info.
70 - Brian Sorrell
Now that's some insightful stuff zingzing. (I understand about the crossfire). I don't know of either of the bands you mention, so I'll hunt around and check them out.
Our author seems to think that there is nothing of value available in music stores today. I submit Charlie Hunter (and his many side projects) as a pioneer. For those who don't know him, he plays 8-string guitar and every now and again (at his shows), hops on the drum kit or pandeiro. His influences cover a truly global range, from traditional jazz and blues to hip hop and rock to, well, the pandeiro, he's got all the bases covered. His "Songs From The Analog Playground" features the then-unnoticed Norah Jones and Mos Def, among many others.
His approach to 8-string guitar is intriguing also. He seems to consider it to be an instrument different from both guitar and bass -- somewhat akin to a drum kit when drum kits were first assembled. So, he sees his role as developing a new vocabulary (or language perhaps) on a rather unexplored instrument -- much as drummers had to change their tune when lots of percussion instruments collided in the ubiquitous "kit".
I don't mean to be a walking advertisement, but if anyone is in the LA area -- April 12 at the House Of Blues Hollywood there's a mini-jazz festival with a few bands from Ropeadope Records. Charlie is among them. Anyone who doesn't believe that there is any good new music out there would do themselves a favor to witness the gifts of these guys.
In other thoughts: here's a bone I'll throw to the flamers: I think that Shakira is brilliant. I'm totally serious about this -- she's breaking lots of interesting ground AND makes it to the charts. That's another story....
Cheers!
Brian.
71 - Mark Saleski
Charlie Hunter is actually a great example because he's a person who has great chops AND does something interesting with them...to take somebody from the opposite extreme, how about Stanley Jordan. he brought a totally different technique to the scene but, i dunno...there was just nothing there (at least for me)
Shakira, eh? dang, does that mean i can buy one of her cd's guilt-free? ;-)
72 - Brian Sorrell
You have my blessing to buy one of her CDs. I'll freely admit, I bought after the "Obsession" music video because, well, c'mon! But I was bowled over by her production and writing -- not so much the lyrics, but her ability to integrate a wide variety of musical styles -- she's not a front for a production team: from what I've found, she's involved in all aspects of production. Her voice is a bit quirky, but I really dig it. Oh yeah, and she's smokin' hot ;)
I'm on board with Stanley Jordan: really compelling technique, but more or less a one-trick pony. Charlie is such a huge contrast. For example, my wife gets flustered that we HAVE to go every time he's in town. But his show is totally different every time -- solo, trio, quartet, quintet -- with radically different styles pumping out of each configuration. We were talking about the LA gig just this past weekend and she's converted: she agrees that we do indeed NEED to go every time.
This reminds me: someone else who's impressive these days is John Mayer. His new blues configuration is quite good -- his guitar chops, which I heard evidence of when I saw him like four years ago, are now just enormous. And his voice, which I didn't like then, is vastly more dynamic and nuanced now -- well, for my tastes anyway.
Enough pontificating... I've got work to do.
73 - Guppusmaximus
"mastering an instrument does not mean that you can convey emotion."
Wrong... But that's ok. What can you convey if you don't work to master your instrument? It's kinda like baby talk but I guess that's why Nirvana was huge... Malmsteen composes classical work where he is the soloist.That's the reason why it is such a masterpiece.He has more emotion in his pinky than you do in your entire body. It just goes to show what music education won't get you(He taught himself). Soloing is only dull when you don't know how to do it. Prince would be a perfect example,Thank You.
As for FNM? I like,"K.F.A.D.F.F.A.L" because of the edginess but most people think they stopped with "AngelDust". Mr. Bungle- Their first major release which was a compilation,"Travolta" was brilliant. Fantomas- I like all their work so far because it has no boundaries....It can be very humorous but out of all of Patton's recent work, I like Tomahawk because it's raw and unforgiving. Ofcourse it doesn't have the brutal assault from Dave Lombardo but it's very creative and original for the most part.
I made a remark about your love for synth music because you chimed in on a discussion that Mr.West and I were having...So don't cry,man. It's ok...
Yes, you are correct... I put rules on things:
1. Never listen to morons about emotional content when they name crap like Blue Nile.
2. Always listen to CDs from bands who have talent because it's better than trying to figure out the useless garble from wannabes.
3. Don't wait for the mainstream because when they figure it out..it will be over.
4. Don't list bands for morons who couldn't appreciate them.(See rule 1)
74 - Christopher Rose
Totally agree with Brian Sorrell on the brilliance of Shakira. Clever lyrics, mostly great music, and she's funny too. I listen to "Oral Fixation" a lot.
75 - Odysseus160
That is supposed to be music snobbery? Talking about ELO and Otis Redding? Clearly, this must be Music Snobbery for the Common Man (with apologies to Copland.) Real music snobbery is when you can sing along with Bach's Mass in Bm. As an added benefit, you'll be able to impress any Christians, who usually are fairly undereducated, by reciting the Nicaene Creed in Latin, the text of the Mass. ("Credo in unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam ...")
Also, for a snobbery add-on, try Bach's cantatas in German. I can recommend Cantata 89, "Meine Seele Ruehmt und preist," and #51, "Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen."
Of course, it also doesn't hurt if you can discuss modulation using Padre Mattei's lecture on the figured bass to modulate from any key to any other. Now, THAT is music snobbery, no? But that type of stuff is usually reserved for conversations with people who really know music. And no, I am not a musician nor have enjoyed formal music education. Just your average super-snob ...