Al Barger has a bee in his bonnet about Black Sabbath. Specifically, they are THE ultimate Beavis and Butthead band.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Black Sabbath blows. They're a joke, a cartoon band. Specifically, they are THE ultimate Beavis and Butthead band, as you may remember. That is to say, they're a dumb band for glue sniffing teenage boys who have killed whatever brain cells they may once have had.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Eric Olsen
Sabbath without Ozzy is like the Doors without Morrison: superfluous.
Over the long haul the public almost always gets it right. Ozzy is an icon and Dio a minor figure for two reasons: Ozzy is a vastly more important figure in the history of popular music by every possible measurement (other than maybe upper register volume), AND because his wife is a brilliant marketing woman - can't forget that part. But you can't get by on marketing alone - Ozzy led and largely determined the image of the best meal band of all time. Dio did not.
27 - JR
Weren't Meat Loaf and Leslie West going to form a band at one point. That could have been the best meal band of all time.
28 - Tim Hall
Eric,
Ozzy may have been a great rock icon in his day, but nowadays he's now a washed up walking "don't do drugs" advertisment. When did he last make a decent record? You can argue about whether Heaven and Hell is a true Sabbath album or not, but it's still a great album either way.
JR, I've got "Born Again". It's a fair album in the Ian Gillan canon, but it's just not Sabbath. All the songs are about fast cars and fast women!
Any opinions of the Tony Martin years?
29 - Eric Olsen
Tim, no argument about Ozzy now - I can't even watch the show, his decepitude is just too depressing, and I don't know about his last decent album because I've never cared much about him solo, nor Sabbath without him. A lot of times in music it's all about synergy. I am just arguing for the importance of the original Sabbath in the '70s, but due to that status Ozzy deserves his status - the present doesn't negate the past.
30 - JR
I haven't spent as much time listening to the later Black Sabbath years, but I remember being impressed with Tony Martin as a singer. He was more in the classic Dio mold; by that time Dio's voice was starting to go.
I think most people would agree that by the mid-80's Sabbath wasn't as "relevent" - those of us who loved them from their 70's work had found new bands who were moving the genre forward, while Sabbath seemed to be repeating a formula. Much like AC/DC after "Back In Black".
Having said that, I remember being impressed with some of the material on "Eternal Idol", but my CD's are still packed away after a hurricane so I can't confirm who sang on that. I believe that would be the album after that other former Deep Purple singer experiment, "Seventh Sign".
(BTW, I would like to nominate Ritchie Blackmore as the most important talent scout in heavy metal history.)
"Born Again" is kind of strange. I have to say, for all that I love Deep Purple I never really got into Ian Gillian. Of course his lyrics bear no relation to the music. And while Ian-the-Octave-Eater was a technically spectacular singer his melodic choices and his phrasing have always seemed kind of "off" to me. Whereas Ozzy always sang exactly the notes I wanted to hear. I remember the first time I heard the song "No More Tears" (from his last good album?); when I first heard that riff sludging along on one note, I thought, "Oh, he's not going to be able to sing anything good over this". But damned if Ozzy didn't come up with a great melody!
It's funny how Sabbath without Ozzy is now some kind of sacrilege. As I remember, back when Dio joined Sabbath after his work in Rainbow it sounded like a match made in, well, Heaven. They made a great album (or two) together and if anything Dio's lyrics seemed like an even better fit to Sabbath's music. The self-proclaimed arbiters of style were still 15 years away from acknowleging that Sabbath were ever more than "music for glue sniffing teenage boys", so Sabbath-with-Ozzy had no critical/historical significance. Some of us who actually listened the music at the time were just glad to see Sabbath move on.
31 - Eric Olsen
JR, great point about "relevance" - after the punk/new wave revolution, everything that came before seemed quaint for a time, but that which had made a real impact - like Sabbath in the '70s - came back and asserted itself again. As post-punk and metal merged into nu metal and hardcore, the distinction no longer applied.
32 - Mark Saleski
i really like the Heaven & Hell-era Sabbath...but really think of it as a completely different band. more Rainbow than Sabbath.
plus, i saw them on the Heaven & Hell tour. pretty good show for a bunch of aging metalheads.
33 - TDavid
Sorry Al, this review seems like intentional baiting and not completely well-informed or reasoned. Barger baiting for comments? Ok, we're biting.
The debut Black Sabbath album cemented their place in rock music history. Tony Iommi is known as a "riff machine" and to quote Ozzy "for a guy with 3 fingers chopped off, there ain't a better fix."
Countless bands have named Sabbath as their inspiration (don't take my word for it, research it!). If anybody reading this doubts that Ozzy once could sing go find a bootleg copy of the song Gypsy live in 1974 in Pennsylvania (it's out there). His scream on that song will chill your bones.
As for the incarnations that followed Ozzy's vocal departure, there were sparks with Dio and others, but the flames were not there like when Ozzy was at the helm. I don't think, however, it was as unholy as song fans found the concept pressing on with all those different singers.
Oddly enough, Barger mentions Skynyrd who is a lot more of a shadow of its former self than Black Sabbath. Sweet Home Alabama should be the poster song for being overplayed and over-commercialized. A solid song, but once a song is sung by Ruben Studdard on American Idol and is whored into the title of a movie starring Reese Witherspoon, forget it being about "rock" any longer.
And comparing Black Sabbath musically to Duran Duran? LOL C'mon Al.
34 - Eric Olsen
To a certain extent we have gone through this before, but Al seems to evaluate music primarily from the perspective of a certain conception of what makes a good "song." There are all kinds of other measures of music that are just as valid, and I would think Al's appreciation of James Brown indicates at least some awareness of this, as Brown certainly didn't write traditional "songs" once he got maximally funky.
35 - Craig Lyndall
This is exactly the point. If we categorized song by technical delivery all the time (which I thought to be a big part of Al's argument against Sabbath) where would that leave guys like Bob Dylan?
Plus, a point that I tried to make earlier with the Led Zeppelin thing is that you don't have to like a band to recognize their importance. I can name a bunch of influential bands that I really don't like, but I still recognize them as influential, even HOF-worthy.
36 - Mark Saleski
yep...i kinda go along with Zappa's (and others') conception of music, which is that something is music if you peceive it to be music.
this of course allows me to listen to stuff that sounds like your average refrigerator compressor.
37 - Craig Lyndall
How can you argue with the guy who wrote "Catholic Girls?"
38 - Chris Puzak
JR:
Tony Martin sang on The Eternal Idol. He sang on the next few Sabbath albums as well, with the exception of Dehumanizer, which Ronnie James Dio returned to sing on. However, that reunion didn't work out, and Rob Halford of Judas Priest sang with the band for a couple of shows. Then Tony Martin came back and did a couple more albums with the band. It would be tough for any band to top the first six Sabbath albums, but I think a lot of the post-Ozzy material is just as good and sometimes better than Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die.
I agree that Sabbath certainly wasn't "relevant" in the 80s, but I think a lot of the band's back catalog is overlooked. It certainly no worse than a Ozzy's solo work, much of which is pretty mediocre.
39 - Tom Johnson
I may sound like a complete heretic here, but the only Sabbath that connected with me IS the Tony Martin-fronted version. I loved his voice, loved the gloomy pallor cast over the music. Alas, this didn't last too long as I burned through what Sabbath could provide me at the time. Of course, I was also one of the heathens who preferred Sammy Hagar to David Lee Roth in Van Halen. Now, however, I prefer Roth over Hagar, and likewise, I'd probably enjoy the Ozzy-led Sabbath. Guess I can appreciate that stuff now . . . I was just a dumb kid back then, apparently!
40 - Eric Olsen
Tom, thank goodness you have recanted your apostasy re BS and VH or else I fear the Spanish Inquisition would have had its way with you.
41 - Tom Johnson
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Seriously, I think I was more reactionary to what was popular as a teen. People loved DLR-era VH? Fine, I loved Hagar stuff to spite them! Now, I'm all grown up and mature (shut up, I am!) and realize how much good stuff I missed out on with stances like this. Thank God for used record stores (and Half.com for $0.50 CDs!) so I can right those wrongs!
42 - Eric Olsen
I have some rejectionist tendencies as well, but 20 years of DJing live crowds (where people can harm you) helped cure me of that to a certain extent. Actually, as I think about it, I think the DJing sort of bifurcated my sensibility rather than integrate "popular" stuff into my private sensibility, it just created a whole different sensibility, which intersects with my private sensibility to a fair extent but also leaves a lot of stuff in one category or the other but not both.
43 - TDavid
Tom - you raise an interesting point that music can sometimes take seasoning. Some give up on music before they listen to it enough, I think.
My first reaction to music is usually not the one that sticks with me long term. I wasn't a huge Zeppelin fan originally, for example, but then I've grown to really enjoy and appreciate their music.
Currently I'm spinning Iron Maiden Dance of Death and after a dozen or so listens to every song, certain tunes are starting to rise above others.
I recently went back to Van Halen's debut albums and have been playing the song Little Dreamer quite a bit. I can't believe I missed fully enjoying that song on the many times I spun that album in my younger days.
44 - Eric Olsen
Regarding cycles: I loved Zeppelin unto death when they first came out - iwas a budding guitarist and I COULD PLAY a lot of the songs and MAKE THEM SOUND RIGHT even, which was a huge factor in playing the records over and over again to learn the parts. But as a result of this overexposure, and then the punk explosion, they looked bloated and foolish to me from the later '70s until the later '90s when everything came around again and I was able to appreciate all the great stuff again without the various prejudice. But I'll never like them as much as I did in '72 because I am no longer 14 and learning to play electric guitar and thinking "Stairway" is profound.
45 - Tom Johnson
I have almost always found that something that doesn't stick with me upon first play tends to get better and better with each successive listen. The opposite is likely just as true - the new Iron Maiden you comment upon is the latest victim for me. First time through, I loved it, but each time I put it in, I feel dragged down a little more by disappointment in it. What's worse, it's not offensively bad, where I could say I'm put off by it because it's just plain awful. It's not by any means. It's just so average that it wears me out with blandness. I find that more offensive than being awful. It's just so pedestrian that I can neither find tremendous fault with it nor can I find anything particularly great about it either. I figure that if something is that blatantly awful that I *hate* it, there might be something at work there that I didn't grasp yet. Often times, after a number of spins, I find there is. The new Metallica was this way - St. Anger *was* offensive the first time, but by spin #5, I had gotten over the rough production qualities that most people can't seem to look beyond and it had cemented itself in my collection (face it, most people hate this album because of the recording - and lack of solos - and not because it's tremendously different than most of their catalog.) The black album, in comparison, invokes feelings of dreaded boredom from me - this is an album so calculatedly commercial that I find it embarassing to listen to. Give me Load and Reload anyday over the black album. But the first time through on the black album way over a decade ago . . . that thing was the best metal album ever! Ahem.
Not a trend-jumper, I am. I tend to over-scrutinize things that get popular, and am quick to write it off without giving it a real chance. That's why I force myself to own and listen to things for a lot longer before I exile them to the trade pile. I'm also hyper-paranoid about things that appeal immediately, fearful that they'll also wind up in that pile eventually too. The life of a music junkie on a budget - almost nothing is so sacred it isn't considered for trade once in a while. (I've learned to be much more finicky about both what I buy and what I sell - I spend too much money buying *back* things I wrote off far too quickly.)
46 - TDavid
Oddest mellow Sabbath song? Solitude from Master of Reality would probably get my vote. Ozzy's off-kilter (was he really stoned during the recording?) singing, Geezer's pounding bass, Iommi's fretwork and Bill Ward's chimes are downright disturbing.
My future is shrouded in dark wilderness
Sunshine is far away, clouds linger on
Everything I posessed - Now they are gone
Of course Changes is a classic so it's going to get some votes, but I am shuddering at the thought of Kelly and Ozz doing a duet on that song. I hope I'm surprised on how that cover will turn out ...
Anybody else here think that the song It's Alright from Technical Ecstasy with Bill Ward at vocals sounds more like something from Queen than Sabbath?
47 - Tim Hall
Worst Sabbath vocal performance: Bill Ward on "Swinging the Chain", from Never Say Die, which rumour suggests Ozzy refused to sing because he thought the song was crap. A strong candidate for worst song in the band's extensive catalogue.
48 - Al Barger
Contrary to Eric's guess, I have in fact listened to a fair amount of Sabbath. When I was 18, the inner gatefold sleeve of the "Sold Our Souls" album decorated my dorm room. That picture was a much better argument for necrophilia than anything from my beloved Alice Cooper. The picture was more interesting than the records inside.
One might argue [comment 33] that "Sweet Home Alabama" and even "Free Bird" are overexposed. That's a matter of taste, I suppose. It still says nothing about the song and the recording. Yes, they are not much of an important group now. In case anyone missed it, most of the band died in a plane crash. That takes nothing away from classic Skynyrd, however.
The Allman Brothers were a hot band, no doubt. They might reasonably be argued to be fancier instrumentalists, perhaps. I pick Skynyrd as tops, however, because of the depth of the song catalogue.
I'd probably actually somewhat pick solo Ozzy over Sabbath. I haven't picked it apart enough to know, but I suspect this is because of his collaborators, particularly Randy Rhodes. I'd pick "Crazy Train" in particular as a song over anything from Sabbath.
Responding to comment 34, I'm looking first and foremost for underlying songs. All the fancy production gimmicks in the world won't make something great out of nothing. Primarily, the core of a song is MELODY. If there's no melody, then you have at best a rhythm track waiting for someone to write a song over it.
James Brown had some good melodies. Now some of the funkiest of all times, his rhythm tracks were more the star, though. You can get across with a half-decent melody combined with total kick-assness in other elements. Certainly JB had rhythmic elements ALL OVER Sabbath.
But he also had melody way over Sabbath. Besides more traditionally tuneful R&B ballad type stuff, even, say, "Cold Sweat" has more tune to it than Sabbath.
PS I apologize for my lax input here in the last several days. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm having SEVERE computer problems. I'm writing at the moment from the danged ol' library. Hopefully I'll be back to my regular anti-social ways in a day or two.
49 - Mark Saleski
If there's no melody, then you have at best a rhythm track waiting for someone to write a song over it
...oh, i get it.
like in "Pump It Up"?
;-)
50 - duane
Something seems to have gone a little off track when
Black Sabbath and James Brown are being compared for
melodic content. It's like comparing pork rinds and cotton
candy for nutritional content. What the hell do I know, but
I would say that a very small fraction of the great rock bands
gave more than two shits about melody. If anything, they care
about hooks, which usually consists of a few well-placed notes.
Take Al's vaunted Sweet Home Alabama. I can count those notes
on one hand. It is just too simple to be "good" from a melodic standpoint.
I would be willing to bet that people like that song simply because
they like it. It's almost ludicrous to argue that it's good because
of its melodic content. If you want melody, go listen to some
old torch songs. That stuff was written with an emphasis on melody
and on combining melodic lines with subtly shaded chord structures. There
are rarely any subtle chord structures in rock. (I said rarely, not never.)
And no shit, ABBA did write better melodies than most all of our
favorite rock bands. Like it or not, those two guys (the B and the
other B) were smart songwriters.
Al doesn't like Sabbath. Fine. Don't like them, but to try to dismiss
them on the grounds of poor melodic structure. Rock ain't Rodgers
and Hammerstein. Sabbath created a mood and an image that was
the perfect antidote to flower-power peace-and-love smiley hand-holding
acoustic blue-sky sunshine dirty-haired potsmokers. They wanted to scare
the shit out of those types. Their music roars and rumbles. It's dark,
it's Terminator soundtrack material. It's tense, it's fucking serious.
Lynyrd Skynyrd music is great for a catfish and hushpuppies barbecue.
Sure, Sabbath was made up of four dumb guys, unlike, I suppose, the
brainiacs in Lynyrd Fucking Skynyrd. I can't help but adding, in the wake
of the RS guitar ranking, that the guitar solo on Free Bird is the most
execrable, abominable, gratuitous filler material in any big hit rock song... EVER.
But I'm sure they're a great bunch of guys. And Al, no offense. I appreciate
your opinion, and it's well-stated. Just remember, Fairies Wear Boots, dude.
51 - Eric Olsen
Duane very forcefully put and right on in a lot of ways. I wouldn't agree exactly that melody isn't important in rock - I think you are using a more technical meaning of the word than Al or most of us in general. The "Sweet Home" melody may be simple but it's super catchy. And while the solos at the end of "Free Bird" may sound trite now after innumerable listenings, at the time they were very exciting, even riveting, and the production on the first two albums by Al Kooper was amazing - just compare the sound he got to the same songs live: no comparison. When the "Free Bird" solos kick in on the studio recording it still gets my blood pumping all these years later.
But I think your assessment of Sabbath is excellent - no need to denigrate Skynyrd to build up Sabbath. Like you said at the beginning: it's pork rinds and cotton candy - no comparison, totally different animals.
52 - Natalie Davis
The following comment is not mine, as I refuse to violate my personal BC posting rules. I post this, quite reluctantly, at the behest of the ball and chain: Spousal Unit, a 42-year-old educator (specialization: literature, grammar, and arts appreciation) and connoisseur of quality music (covering all kinds of rock, jazz, roots musics, and classical), celebrates Sabbath, its influence, and its music. SU says only those with small minds would cast aspersion on people for have differing opinions and tastes in music, and adds, "If he doesn't like Black Sabbath, fine, but why insult those of us who do?"
If the author opts to reply, please leave me out of it; instead, write the spouse directly.
53 - Eric Olsen
You are funny Natalie
54 - TDavid
Coincidence or superstition? Shortly after slamming Sabbath, Al's computer went to hell.
55 - Eric Olsen
Dabble not in the dark arts, nor mess with eaters of bats.
56 - Andrew Ian Dodge
You think he might be going for the most comments for a post, mb?
Got to say this is an amusing but rather appalling post. It demonstrates a profound ignorance about heavy rock and its history. Granted Sabbath didn't invent heavy metal, nor are they best of the genre. They did however have a profound influence on the genre, inspiring loads of bands and producing Ozzy. Some of Ozzy's solo material is very good, the best being the album No More Tears.
BS was not a "joke" band but a highly influential one.
As far as the "Beavis and Butthead" comment, I shall leave that as it does not merit a comment.
NB: I dont find myself listening to much Sabbath, as much of it is rather boring and predictable.
57 - Natalie Davis
No, Eric. SU is the funny one (hilarious, in fact, and, btw, an Internet hater).
58 - Al Barger
Yeah, the thought that I had crossed a band in league with Mr. Scratch came to mind when my box went nuts.
Come on Natalie [#52], you afraid I'm going to be crappy over a little modest criticism? I really tried to be nice. Note how I was making nice about the band personally. I'm sure Ozzy et al are fine, outstanding gentlemen. And I still don't think they were a major league band. I won't hate the Spousal Unit for liking Sabbath. Heck, some of my best friends are Kenny Rogers fans, and that dude sits SEVERAL circles lower in my personal version of The Inferno. Did I mention that Kenny Rogers is the anti-Christ?
Mr. Saleski [#49], "Pump It Up" has a perfectly good melody. Trying to bait me with Elvis? Shame on you. It's MY goat, and you're not getting it.
Duane [#50], you may be significantly overstating it, but the Broadway writers certainly did often have more involved melodies, and especially more sophisticated harmony. True enough. It's somewhat apples and oranges, though. Rock era writers have other advantages, areas where they have done far more than the Broadway era in rhythm, instrumentation and production.
Also, more technically sophisticated does not necessarily mean more meaningful. To make a slightly closer contrast, compare Chuck Berry to some ELP wankfest. Theoretically, there may be a lot fancier notes being played on some of that art-rock stuff, but is there a song in that catalogue with the emotional depth and staying power of "Brown Eyed Handsome Man"?
59 - Mark Saleski
i never said "Pump It Up" had a bad melody...but you've gotta admit it doesn't
have a whole 'lotta notes in it.
besides, i like the idea of you sittin' in the public library with steam coming out of your ears.
60 - Tom Johnson
61 - Eric Olsen
And "From the Beginning" too for that matter, but I'm sure we get his point, which is valid. And the point supports Black Sabbath.
62 - Al Barger
Tom, I'm not sure I'd want to admit to knowing that much about ELP.
Eric, you COULD take that point as support for Sabbath, but it was not intended as such. There ain't a Sabbath song in any form of league with a Chuck Berry classic.
63 - JR
Is there a technical meaning to the word "melody"? I've never seen it defined as anything other than a sequence of notes. Beyond that, the definition seems to be particular to the person using the term.
So, by what objective standard do we figure out which sequences are "more melodic" than others? If we go by how many different notes are in it, Schoenberg wins every time. However, I DEFY anybody here to hum their favorite twelve tone melody. Does anybody here even have a favorite twelve tone melody?
If I had to pick a single criterion, it would be how well a melody works as a meme. Often very simple, even "stupid", melodies make pretty effective memes. (I'm thinking of a particular Queen record right now.)
I suppose, just as we can't agree on one quality that makes a great guitarist, we won't come up with one quality that makes great melodies.
But by whatever "objective" standard Al wants to throw at us, I think we'll be able to demonstrate that Black Sabbath holds their own against other rock bands. So have at it, Al!
64 - john
what the fuck do you know about music anyway black sabbath is one of the best bands around you keep pumping gass asshole
65 - Al Barger
Dear John, having seen your insightful analysis [comment 64], I must recant my heretical negative opinion of Black Sabbath, and pronounce them one of the great bands of all times.
You now represent my idea of a true Black Sabbath fan.
Thanks for setting me straight.
66 - Craig Lyndall
Is that all I needed to do to set you straight on Sabbath Al?
I wish I had thought about writing fragments with misspellings.
al I still can't believe you don't like black sabbath you should listen to it some more if that happened you would start to like them keep pumping gass
67 - Eric Olsen
Craig and Al: classic
68 - Al Barger
Oh, Sabbath is OK. Boiling it down to one best-of album comes out with something decently listenable. It's just that it's pretty much junk food. They hardly rate being recognized in the same group with Chuck Berry- or Lynyrd Skynyrd.
69 - Eric Olsen
A major corner has been turned - alert the media.
Chuck Berry - no, Lynyrd Skynyrd - hell yes.
70 - TDavid
Al pumping gas listening to Sabbath for eternity, now there is damnation for him! LOL
71 - duane
I AM PET-ROL MAN...duh duh duh-duh-duh...
Actually, it seems that Lynyrd Skynyrd is the favorite band of 83% of gas station employees, with Wet Willie coming in a distant second. Hmm....
72 - Al Barger
Hey, if they can come up with a really good song, maybe Sabbath will someday rank up there with Bloodrock.
73 - Eric Olsen
you mean Red Sabbath?
74 - xaos tehory
You have all missed the fact in talking about ozzy's music that he has destroyed his voice, creativity and virtually all brain-cells in taking more drugs than the proverbial hot dinners.
75 - Al Barger
What I'm saying is that he wasn't all THAT even in his youth before he destroyed himself.