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Mumbai Attacks a Reminder of the Threat of Terrorism

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In the United States we've now gone for seven years without a significant terror attack within our borders, and even our forces in Iraq are facing fewer and fewer threats as the Sadrists look for a way out and al Qaeda becomes increasingly marginalized. We hardly even see reports on our news about our forces in Iraq, much less about violence in other parts of the world. East Africa and Israel are old news and hardly attract even the most cursory coverage. The sad truth is that unless it's happening right here at home, our media and our complacent population just don't pay a great deal of attention.

If you are one of those few who actually do pay attention to warning signs, you have to be alarmed over recent events in Mumbai. On Wednesday, more than 20 terrorists launched at least 10 coordinated terrorist attacks which targeted hotels, cafes, a hospital, a Jewish civic organization and the main train station. At each location terrorists armed with automatic weapons and hand grenades attacked civilians and seized buildings, taking hostages and looking specifically for United States or British citizens to hold. In the initial assaults more than 100 were killed, and there have been further casualties as Indian commandos have gradually recaptured seized buildings and attempted to rescue hostages.

Multiple witnesses at different locations described the attackers as "foreign looking" and "fair skinned," suggesting that the attack drew on a larger terror network than just the regional Kashmiri terror groups which have launched other attacks in Mumbai and around India. There is as yet no absolute indication that al Qaeda was involved, but the scope of the attacks, the level of organization and the involvement of western-looking attackers is a reminder of how widespread and interconnected Islamist terrorist groups have become. Their networks reach from Europe to the Philippines and their cause attracts fanatics who are willing to fight and die for the interests of any of the allied extremist Muslim groups which have a cause for them to fight for.

Many of the attackers hit their targets and escaped before local police could respond, but attackers at the Oberoi-Trident and Taj Mahal hotels and at the Chabad Lubevitch center took hostages and held out for more than a day before they were rooted out. After the recapture of the two hotels and other locations where hostages were being held, the death toll had risen to 119 with another 300 wounded. The final holdouts were at the Chabad Lubevitch Jewish Center, which was liberated early Friday morning. Also on Friday morning, Indian naval authorities seized two Pakistani ships which are believed to have delivered the terrorists to Mumbai.

Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard. The assault on Mumbai has all of the earmarks that are coming to identify 21st century terrorism. The scope was ambitious, the participants were part of the international terror community rather than just locals, and there was a clear connection to Pakistan, which has become the nexus for terrorism worldwide.

Here in Fortress America we may be able to sit back and dismiss the ongoing worldwide threat which these attacks represent. Much of the rest of the world doesn't have that luxury, however. Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization. They can't ignore the growing threat, and we do so at our peril. These foreign attacks already threaten American citizens and business interests in countries like India where we are very heavily involved commercially. Despite our geographic, demographic and security advantages, it is inevitable that terrorists as resourceful and determined as those who launched this attack will find a way to bring their cause to our shores. How well prepared will we be when most of us aren't paying attention?

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    In the other topic, Dave, you said reports claimed the attackers were ‘fair-skinned and fair-HAIRED’. I’ll assume that was a typo on your part.

    Videos showed at least some of the attackers were dark-skinned and dark-haired. But what may be of more interest is, this from Newsweek:

    “Around 8:30 p.m. on Wednesday, a band of 10 young armed militants zoomed up to a fishermen’s colony in Colaba, on the Mumbai waterfront, in inflatable Zodiac speedboats. Locals confronted them: unlike the dark-skinned Mumbai fishermen, who speak only Marathi, the regional dialect, the intruders were young, tall and fair-skinned and spoke Urdu with a northern accent.”

    And this from the Wikipedia:

    “Urdu is the national language of Pakistan and an officially recognized regional language of India. It is also an official language in the Indian states of Andhra Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, National Capital Territory of Delhi, and Uttar Pradesh.”

    In other words, while al-Qaeda DOES operate from northern Pakistan and probably from Kashmir, there is as yet NO EVIDENCE that they are in any way connected to al-Qaeda…yet you – like so many others – have no problem in making that ASSUMPTION.

    Dave, maybe they ARE affiliated with al-Qaeda…but if there is no proof, and if such is NOT the case, then our response (and the responses of those we influence) may be completely wrong.

    It could just as easily be an attack planned by the Pakistani military and/or intelligence service in order to harm their longtime enemy India…and al-Qaeda provides an easy target to lay the blame upon.

    IN OTHER WORDS, Dave, assumptions are dangerous things to make…just like certain assumptions that a certain president made about the supposed presence of WMDs inside Iraq.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    In the other topic, Dave, you said reports claimed the attackers were ‘fair-skinned and fair-HAIRED’. I’ll assume that was a typo on your part.

    Or a typo on the part of the BBC which was reporting the eyewitness accounts, including one linked to in the article where an Iraqi tourist identifies one of the gunmen as ‘blonde’. And just for the record, there ARE fair-haired Afghans and northern Pakistanis, not to mention Chechens and various other Muslim groups who have light skin and relatively fair hair.

    In other words, while al-Qaeda DOES operate from northern Pakistan and probably from Kashmir, there is as yet NO EVIDENCE that they are in any way connected to al-Qaeda…yet you – like so many others – have no problem in making that ASSUMPTION.

    You mean like when I wrote “There is as yet no absolute indication that al Qaeda was involved?” Which I’d say makes it awfully damned clear that I didn’t assume al Qaeda was involved. Or perhaps later in the article when I talk about widespread terror networks which aren’t necessarily part of al Qaeda?

    Perhaps you should read the actual article before going off on me like an ass.

    It could just as easily be an attack planned by the Pakistani military and/or intelligence service in order to harm their longtime enemy India…and al-Qaeda provides an easy target to lay the blame upon.

    You make the amusing assumption that there is a clear line that can be drawn between the Pakistani intelligence service and al Qaeda.

    IN OTHER WORDS, Dave, assumptions are dangerous things to make…just like certain assumptions that a certain president made about the supposed presence of MWD’s inside Iraq.

    And like the assumption that you read certain things in the article which I did not in fact write? Or the assumption that I misquoted or misunderstood the articles I link to?

    Dave

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, I’ve just looked at all the BBC reports you linked to and none of them are reporting that the attackers were fair-skinned or fair-haired. Apart from you, I’ve not seen any other claims to that so do you have anything else to substantiate your statement?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard. The assault on Mumbai has all of the earmarks that are coming to identify 21st century terrorism. The scope was ambitious, the participants were part of the international terror community rather than just locals, and there was a clear connection to Pakistan, which has become the nexus for terrorism worldwide.

    Here in Fortress America we may be able to sit back and dismiss the ongoing worldwide threat which these attacks represent. Much of the rest of the world doesn’t have that luxury, however. Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization. They can’t ignore the growing threat,…

    For understandable reasons, I’ve been following these events at Mumbai rather closely. Not only the fate of Rabbi and Rebbetzin Holtzberg are of concern; there is the nature of the attack on the city.

    This was a well coördinated guerilla attack on a major municipal center which DID NOT have as its goal the mere murder of civilians. And, as anyone watching the live feed from India can see, it has been rather successful in its apparent goal – the seizure of specifically targeted foreigners as hostages for the purpose of having bargaining chips over an internal matter.

    The details of the matter, Kashmir, are of little importance to those who do not live in the region of the Indian sub-continent, or who are not Desis themselves; but the concept of the attack, and its apparent success (success is not measured in “victories” here but in tying down the enemy [Indian] forces) means that we can expect to see it copied elsewhere in the world. Israel is most assuredly a possible target of such a well-coördinated attack. So is the United States, particularly an inland port. Seaports are just too obvious as targets.

    It is very important to remember that this is not an attack with the intent to murder civilians. Had this been true, thousands of dead would have been already reported, and there would be no issue of a missing rabbi and rebbetzin, for example….

  • Mark Eden

    You fools need to leave Dave alone. This is an opinion piece , and, according to BC standards, he is free to extrapolate from and interpret his gathered facts as he sees fit.

    Mark

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    Dave, a writer at Desicritics noted the effect on America from this terrible event,

    This time when some of the headlines stated that foreigners, specifically Brits and Americans were being targeted I was puzzled. And then it made sense. With the security heightened in the US and in Britain as well in recent years, it is hard to target Americans and British nationals inside their own country. Mumbai security has never been particularly terrorist-proof and hosts tourists from all over the world. Everybody is aware that most foreign tourists reside in the Oberoi and Taj hotels in the city. While heinous acts of terrorism are not unusual in Mumbai, this attack though carried out in Mumbai, is in reality an attack on the people of 3 nations that should come together as a stronger, more united front in the fight against terrorism.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Did I ‘come off on you like an ass’?

    You DID say, “There is as yet no absolute indication that al Qaeda was involved”

    But you ALSO said “Although these attacks differ greatly in technique from the large-scale truck bombings which have rocked Mumbai in the past, they are still likely to be the work of al Qaeda and associated groups, which are known to change strategies periodically so as to take local defenders off guard.”

    Looking at the two statements, while you did NOT say that it was certainly al-Qaeda’s work, you certainly DID imply that al-Qaeda’s the prime suspect.

    BUT that doesn’t excuse my accusation of you. I did go off half-cocked on you and I should not have. I’m not afraid of being wrong – I’m afraid of not having the courage to admit when I am wrong. I apologize, and I’ll try to be more careful next time.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Chris, the bbc has an article which includes quotes from two eyewitnesses. Pappu Mishra at the train station identified the attackers as ‘fair skinned’ and Iraqi national Gaffar Abdul Amir identified the attackers at the Leopold Cafe as ‘foreign looking’ and one as ‘blonde’.

    But the skin and hair color of the attackers is hardly the point, except as I noted it in the article to point out that the attackers were likely from a widespread network of professional terrorists, not just Kashmiris. The only people making more of it than that are crazies like Alex Jones who is convinced the US and the Brits attacked Mumbai as a false-flag attack, possibly so that Bush can seize permanent power here in the US, or whatever craziness infests the rat nests they call brains.

    And Ruvy, I don’t see that much bargaining has gone on for the hostages, but we’re getting conflicting reports right now. Last night reports were saying that both hotels and the Jewish centre had been recaptured, but today there are new reports which have them still in terrorist hands. The BBC is offering periodic updates.

    And I think Aaman’s Desicritics poster has certainly hit the nail onm the head with his observations. Tagetting westerners is the best way to get attention for your cause wherever you happen to be.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Looking at the two statements, while you did NOT say that it was certainly al-Qaeda’s work, you certainly DID imply that al-Qaeda’s the prime suspect.

    Or specifically “al Qaeda associated groups” which describes many members of the increasingly widespread network of terrorists who associate themselves with and draw on the techniques and resources of al Qaeda. And most observers are pointing the finger at Pakistan and al Qaeda until a more specific suspect is identified.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Your article is important. However I think that our obsession with the notion of “terror” or “terrorism” distorts the reality of how all humanity uses violence as a means of control. The multitudes that we have caused to be killed in Iraq are no less dead. Their relatives are not less bereaved. Their entire society has been terrorized.

    It’s more important to focus on the causes of “terroristic” behavior, fair skinned, dark skinned, red white and blue or otherwise, then stamp it out.

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Can you bottle up your incessent sniping…?

    So far there are several candidates being touted as responsible for the attacks:

    Deccan Muhajadeen – This hitherto unknown group has claimed responsibility for the attacks. They claim to be Indian, but there is no tangible information on whether this is a new group, a new name for an existing group or just a false front.

    Indian Mujahideen – Believed to be a mostly Indian-based movement though having some Pakistani support. They are believed responsible for serial bombings in Bangalore, Jaipur, Delhi and other locations.

    The Students Islamic Movement of India – now believed to be operating as the Indian Mujahideen.

    Lashkar-e-Taiba – This is a Pakistani-based Islamic terrorist organziation with an objective to end indian control over Kashmir. Known for well-planned, well-exeucted attacks (often targeting non-Muslim civilians. They have some reported ties to Al Quaeda but are a distinctly different organization and independent of Al Quaeda. They are currently denying any involvement in the current Mumbai attacks but have certainly been highly active in previous terror activities.

    Jaish-e-Mohammed – also based in Pakistan, also involved in Kashmir, they are a split of from Harkat-ul-Mujahideen- al-Islami (another similar group). Mainly based in Kashmir activities.

    Then there are various factions and splinter groups. There are a multitude of reports claiming that the attackers spoke Urdu and Hindi, and other reports that they spoke Urdu with a distintive Kashmir accent, and that they were in touch via telephone with someone in Karachi, Pakistan.

    Most of this is mostly pure speculation thrown out with a lack of evidence. To tie this back to Al Quaeda at this point is probably wrong, high speculative, specious and simplistic.

  • Clavos

    But, I notice all the suspect groups ARE muslims.

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    (sigh). Yes Clavos.

    152-million people in India are Muslim.

    And right next door, there are another 172-million people in Pakistan who are (shocked gasp) also Muslim. And then Afghanistan has another 30-million, Bandladesh has about 125-million as well. It is the demographic.

    So bluntly – what’s your point? You were expecting Mormans? Typically in India, your terrorist organizations generally fall into two categories – religious, comprising Islamic, Hindu nationalists or Sikh; or political independence/ irredentist movements, which often overlap the religious categories. Why is this a shocking fact of significance to anyone?

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Dave two things: I’ve lived in India and made more than one trip there to the north only. Just heard that one of the dead is an American traveling to learn more about meditation out of Virginia. She was with a group. I actually traveled there alone and met up with people.

    One point IMO you should not try to analyze the situation based on the skin color of Indians…you have no clue there. And whomever said that has no clue. Indians are as diverse looking as blacks here in America. The only difference is that we are black, but both get called “Nigger” true dat.

    Anyway, the north is “white” while the Dravidians of the south are “black” that includes the Tamils as in Tamil separatist.

    The Kashmiris are more likely to be fair than dark, but due to the intermarriage in India the people I saw there, I kid you not, I actually took pictures of some and brought them home to family members and it was a “jaw-dropping moment” they could not believe how identical they looked like members of my family and friends in Chicago and people in India. But of course we are black (only in America) and they are white.

    So, no one has mentioned the Tamil separatist but they are a group who speak Tamil, not an Indo-European language, they are not white and they want their own land. They could be one of the culprits too, they would probably NOT be light skinned though IMHO.

    The second point I’d like you to address…home-grown terrorism. A perfect example of elements before my first trip to India there was the massacre at a Jewish school in California and the stuff going on in the Punjab at the time a la killing and bombings.

    So, the question to me was why are you going to India aren’t you scared? I said what? No one is safe anywhere anytime if kids playing in a school yard can be shot down dead by some American idiot with a big “legal” gun. That shut up my detractors ASAP.

    And my arrival in India was met with, again not kidding, a truck of armed guards who drove behind the bus and secreted and secured us to our destination in Beas (punjab means 5 and is the origin of the word “punch” according to McWhorter’s book OMBT). Our Sikh guru was taking no chances with Western lives. Why? Because they know that we were prized targets. Thus again, people can see some of this stuff coming. But what you can’t see coming Dave is the stuff you don’t even mention–local terrorists who could reek anykind of havoc with their freakin guns at any time.

    Now for a second let’s put the shoe on the other foot, some American terrrorists go to a place with a lot of foreigners visiting, say in Florida and target the Brits there or any other group who may not be white but are NOT Americans…can we predict or prevent that? Not sure that it has happened. What has happened here is far far more unpredictable than what happened in India.

    So Dave your argument falls apart if there has been no spate of gun violence or killings here in America in the last seven years. I don’t even have to look up the mass killings we’ve had here…too many to count. This is terrorism. Remember the right “putting on Ayers” for trial as an unrepentent terrorist? Geez why are you ignoring the parallels I ask?

    The man who wanted to kill Obama and then 80 black people randomly. You don’t breathe a word about this. So much for balanced and fair reporting from Dave. I respect your knowledge even though you seem not to respect my vision and very well educated opinions.

    Heloise

  • Clavos

    Thank you for your patience with me, Deano.

    As a non-progressive, I’m obviously not as intelligent as you, for, if I were, I would, of course, be a progressive, and therefore not make those kinds of egregious errors.

    I appreciate your generous and kindly attempt to enlighten me, but unfortunately, it falls on not only stupid, but deaf ears.

    I find the distinction between muslim group a and muslim group b, to be irrelevant — they’re superficial at least.

    You say (condescendingly) “your terrorist organizations generally fall into two categories – religious, comprising Islamic, Hindu nationalists or Sikh; or political independence/ irredentist movements, which often overlap the religious.

    I point out that all of the suspect groups are muslim, thus none of the suspects are Hindu or Sikh or any other of the groups you mention, but (sigh) it turns out that’s irrelevant.

    You’re probably right, but it seems to me that if you have an enemy, before you can destroy him, you have you know who he is. Perhaps you don’t think we need to destroy that particular enemy.

    I do.

    But then, I’m not a “we’re all humans,” love thy enemy, progressive.

    I’m an “eye for an eye” neanderthal.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    You say,

    The multitudes that we have caused to be killed in Iraq are no less dead. Their relatives are not less bereaved. Their entire society has been terrorized.

    It’s probably not worth mentioning, but things were pretty terrible before the U.S., for good reasons or bad, invaded Iraq. I think that, on balance, things are better now — not great, but better. Perhaps that’s not very important.

    Your comment,

    It’s more important to focus on the causes of “terroristic” behavior, fair skinned, dark skinned, red white and blue or otherwise, then stamp it out

    is very interesting, but I am puzzled. What do you think are the causes of terrorism, and how do you suggest that those causes, and terrorism along with them, be stamped out?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Clavos,

    I don’t know what a “progressive” or a non-progressive” is but you made what was bluntly an asinine and obvious observation with no particular purpose behind it, beyond trying to be stereotypical.

    That you feel an urgent need to state the obvious is not my problem but I will call it stupid when it happens in a public forum and you don’t make a freaking point about why you consider it highly relevant.

    And the distinction between the various groups, factions and motivations involved is highly important to know. Knowing about it helps you understand the motivations, targets, logistics, staging routes, support systems etc. that you can later intredict or trace back. It helps you define where you can apply pressure.

    It also keeps you from doing foolish and short-sighted strategies such as wasting huge resources on the wrong enemy in the wrong place.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Dave two things: I’ve lived in India and made more than one trip there to the north only.

    I’ve been to India myself, as well as being born in the middle east and having travelled extensively in the mideast and central asia. I’m fully aware of the ethnic varieties of the region.

    Just heard that one of the dead is an American traveling to learn more about meditation out of Virginia. She was with a group. I actually traveled there alone and met up with people.

    There are actually two dead Americans from what I’ve read, a 13 year old girl and her father.

    One point IMO you should not try to analyze the situation based on the skin color of Indians…you have no clue there.

    Actually, I do have a clue. But not having seen the attackers myself, I didn’t try to analyze anything based on skin color. I referenced the statements of eyewitnesses

    And whomever said that has no clue. Indians are as diverse looking as blacks here in America.

    No, they are far more diverse looking and have a much larger source gene pool than African Americans.

    Now for a second let’s put the shoe on the other foot, some American terrrorists go to a place with a lot of foreigners visiting, say in Florida and target the Brits there or any other group who may not be white but are NOT Americans…can we predict or prevent that? Not sure that it has happened. What has happened here is far far more unpredictable than what happened in India.

    The closest thing to this in the US would be the Olympic bombing carried out by Eric Rudolph in Atlanta. But I don’t see what the predictability has to do with anything. My point was that terror attacks like this are inevitable, not just in India, but eventually here as well.

    So Dave your argument falls apart if there has been no spate of gun violence or killings here in America in the last seven years.

    The closest thing we’ve had to this has been the occasional school shooting. They’re not politically motivated and they’re not comparable.

    The man who wanted to kill Obama and then 80 black people randomly. You don’t breathe a word about this. So much for balanced and fair reporting from Dave. I respect your knowledge even though you seem not to respect my vision and very well educated opinions.

    Heloise, it’s okay to admit you didn’t actually read the article before commenting on it. Go ahead. The whole point of my article is that we can’t avoid terrorism here and that the attack in Mumbai should be a reminder. You seem to have entirely missed this.

    Dave

  • Lee Richards

    RE #16:

    And things in the U.S., I think, are not now on balance better than they were “before the U.S., for good reasons or bad, invaded Iraq.”

    Perhaps that IS very important.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Lee, perhaps we should have gotten Iraq to invade us instead of invading them.

    As a side note, I have to reiterate how little this particular terrorism has to do with US policy. Despite the claims of the left, the actions of the US are rarely the primary cause of terrorism and we are the target not because of our policies, but because of our prominence.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Lee,

    Of course it is important. When I said that perhaps it is not, my tongue was firmly stuck in cheek.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    Deano 17,

    Once again, I’m so grateful for your willingness to share your vast knowledge of muslim terrorists with me. I see now there are significant differences between the various factions; perhaps differences as vast as those between people who are citizens of the united states and those who are citizens of Miami.

    I’ve never been able to grasp the importance of nuance and subtlety when hunting and killing terrorists; dead is dead.

    I do apologize if I offended you with my use of the term progressive, such was not my intention. I frankly don’t understand why some people embrace that particular political philosophy, but perhaps I will someday.

    If I may be so bold as to inquire, how do you self-describe your political point of view?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    According to the Times of India, three of the “militants” who attacked Mumbai confessed to being members of the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba group.

    Newspapers squarely blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba, one of the largest Islamist militant groups in South Asia, for the attacks that killed more than 100 people and wounded more than 300 which began late on Wednesday. . . .

    Lashkar-e-Taiba denied on Thursday it had any role in the attacks . . . .

    Another newspaper said the group left the Pakistani port city of Karachi by sea and transferred to two small boats or rubber dinghies off Mumbai. They were seen by several residents coming ashore but allayed suspicion by saying they were students, it said.

    The Times of India said the attackers were aged between 18 and 25. Each was given “an AK-47 assault rifle with two magazines each, one pistol and eight to 10 grenades suspected to have manufactured at a Pakistan ordnance factory” it said.

    It seems understandable that they were mistaken for students, since most students coming ashore from small boats or rubber dinghies carry AK-47 assault rifles, pistols and grenades. Don’t they?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Dave I READ YOUR POORLY VETTED article. It stinks and as for gene pool we are all AFRICANS under the skin, or haven’t you heard?

    Your points are moot. McVey was some time ago, but to pull gun shooters who shoot up malls as a non-terrorist act is well beyond me.

    How dare you suggest I did not read this article? I don’t like that because it is an attack of my veracity. If and when I don’t read something I will be honest enough to say so. Pull your soapbox down please Dave it does not become you.

    Heloise

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Can we do a poll here or something to the effect of who thinks that shoot-em ups against children and folks shopping is NOT terrorism? I would really freakin like to know who does not think that is domestic terrorism.

    Heloise

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Dave “Too many nations have porous borders and substantial Muslim populations ripe for radicalization.”

    Heloise says “and we don’t have porous borders?” I rest my case about the vetting and the reading. It is painful to read your article honestly Dave. In fact I once joked that it is a good thing that most Mexicans are Catholic because we too would have a big problem.

    France, I guess you’ve been there too as I, has a huge muslim population and it seems that they too would have more stuff. I know all about the circa 2006 incident because I was writing a chapter at the time when a kid was electricuted and all hell broke loose in the slums where the poor folks live.

    I did not visit the area, forgot what’s it called, because my friend would not let me travel to areas that were highly muslim, hard thing to do in Paris though.

    Heloise

    Just me

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Clavos,

    You really need to work on your condescending tone – and by that I mean you really need to work harder at it, because you don’t do it particularly subtly or well, it reeks of amateurism. At least try to bring your A game…

    As for the term progressive or non-progressive, I’m not offended or unoffended – it doesn’t mean shit – its just a handy political label to slap on people that you don’t agree with. Go ahead, slap away – again it’s a shallow, poorly thought-out strategy but if that’s all you got, then run with it, I’m unlikely to tear off scream “OMG, someone said something mean 2 me on teh Intertubes”.

    As for my political view – I don’t think that’s an issue as you’ve already got me receipted and filed in your “progressive” drawer. I’m sure somewhere in there is some good company and some bad ones, but again, it doesn’t mean shit.

    This little pissing match also doesn’t do shit to contribute to the discussion thread so my recommendation is that if neither of us have anything further relevant to contribute to the topic at hand, we should both shut-up and let the topical discussion continue unfettered.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Yes, I did read that you were born in Yemen or somewhere hence your name Nalle I think the two were connected not sure.

    But what kind of nonsense is it to say that a couple of school kids being killed is not related? And Columbine and the other university where the Asian kid killed a bunch of people is NOT terrorism? I really need as Rachel says “some talking down on this one.”

    The cases have NEVER been one or two people Dave but dozens. And guess what? I said what the Desi people said “Americans and Westerners are used as pawns to make the point because they are value targets but NOT THE target or goal.”

    What’s more: The terrorism stuff there has predated here by decades, decades Dave. I guess you are aware since you are a Middle Eastern expert.

    That is why if you read my post my guru took great precautions to protect us. Hell no the gangs there could care less about us but if we suited their purpose to bring attention then it would be on. But my Punjabi folks took no chance. Yes, it is seeable and preventable. The luxury hotels should have already had posted, armed AK 47-types in the lobby.

    To do less than that is really the CRIME!!! In fact if I were traveling there I would NOT stay at a hotel that did not have armed guards. Will that scare some folks…you betcha, but who’s running scared now? The folks and the government of India, who are our true friends.

    Heloise

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    I rest my case about the vetting and the reading. It is painful to read your article honestly Dave.

    If you find reading honestly to be painful, you’re likely to have a problem with any article you don’t agree with. As for the vetting of the article, the facts are still valid and the links are still there in the article.

    Yes, I did read that you were born in Yemen or somewhere hence your name Nalle I think the two were connected not sure.

    Nalle is likely of Swedish origin. We get our names from our parents, not where we’re born. And I was born in Lebanon, which is a far cry from Yemen.

    But what kind of nonsense is it to say that a couple of school kids being killed is not related? And Columbine and the other university where the Asian kid killed a bunch of people is NOT terrorism? I really need as Rachel says “some talking down on this one.”

    Every study of terrorism draws a clear line between mass murder carried out for personal reasons and politically motivated terrorism carried out to achieve a particular political objective. To suggest that such a division does not exist is ridiculous. It makes the term ‘terrorism’ meaningless by potentially including every violent crime in the category.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    You really need to work on your condescending tone – and by that I mean you really need to work harder at it, because you don’t do it particularly subtly or well, it reeks of amateurism. At least try to bring your A game…

    I know, Deano. It IS amateurism, I don’t get paid to comment on these threads.

    What’s an “A game?” It sounds like one of those sort of “in” slang phrases only the coolest people use, which would explain my unfamiliarity with it.

    Shallow is my middle name; I revel in it, particularly when the label comes from someone of demonstrably superior intelligence.

    This little pissing match also doesn’t do shit to contribute to the discussion thread so my recommendation is that if neither of us have anything further relevant to contribute to the topic at hand, we should both shut-up and let the topical discussion continue unfettered.

    Move in whatever direction you fancy — I always have; by design, usually the opposite of what the majority endorses.

  • Zedd

    Dan(Miller)

    Westerners, Americans in particular have a tendency to make broad strokes when in comes to non Western societies. This is not a matter of good vs evil. Quit rewinding that tape. It is dangerous and dumb. You really believe that day to day life was worse under Saddam than war? Is it because it’s a Western induced war so the pain of death and destruction isn’t as potent?

    Yes in the end things will be better in Iraq. But Saddam was going to die and things would have changed. All societies evolve. Our actions have had a hand in over a million people loosing their lives. Sober up man. This is not an MGM production or a cowboys and Indians movie where no one cares about what happened to those “savages

    Dan, we know what causes terrorism. What angers most people? Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness is what has ignited most uprisings throughout human history. However, one would have to see the people that are causing the upheaval as human. That is the problem now isn’t it. They know it and feel even more frustration. The west’s simplistic view of everyone else is disrespectful and frustrating. Let’s grow up, face it and do something about it. Digging your heals in, wanting everyone to believe themselves to be the way you want them to and threatening to use your powerful weaponry against them is causing terror. Its what we the west do. And we forbid anyone who says anything about it.

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Comment # 25 who thinks that shoot-em ups against children and folks shopping is NOT terrorism? I would really freakin like to know who does not think that is domestic terrorism.

    Heloise,

    It depends on whether the attack on folks shopping is motivated by ideology and not purely by other motives like revenge, greed etc.

    By definition the purpose of terrorism is the use of violence or threats for political or ideological purposes. So if someone shoots up a mall for the thrill of it – that’s just psychosis. It might be terrifying, but it isn’t terrorism. If they shoot it up for a political motivation – to win freedom for a country, government, ethnic group, religious dogma, belief etc….then it can be called terrorism.

    Doesn’t make it right, just or moral but terrorism is by its nature asymetric warfare – it is not generally aimed at where a country is strong, but rather where it is weak and vulnerable, where political pressure can be placed upon it to help reach a specific goal.

    The incidents in Mumbai probably have a number of driving factors which we won’t really understand until more information on who is involved comes in. You can probably draw some initial conclusions – such as:

    – Mumbai is the financial capital of India, so hitting it hard and abruptly impacts the economy and foreign investment, it forces the Indian government to react in specific ways,
    – it increases the potential tension between Pakistan and India,
    – it draws world media attention to the issues and,
    – by involving the international community, increases political pressure and essentially “adds another set of seats” to the negotiating table.
    – builds credibility for the terrorist group – making more funding and recruitment available
    – demonstrates their power by striking at the west and its encroaching secularism that is seen as a threat to Islam

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Clavos,

    Bring your “A game” means your best game, as in played to the best of your capabilities. Sorry, I guess its not a common enough idiom (it is, for future reference neither a cool phrase nor a particularly contempory one, so my apologies for the confusion).

    when the label comes from someone of demonstrably superior intelligence.

    Now see, that’s a good example of not bringing your A game. I did like the part about amatuerism – that’s a solid shot out of the ballpark. Aim for more of that.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    “This is not a matter of good vs evil.”

    AMEN!

    You are spot on, but be careful – people will start calling you a liberal for daring not only to think, but to actually PUBLISH anything implying that America’s efforts to tell everyone else what they should do is anything BUT the Will of God Himself….

  • pablo

    Nalle said: “You make the amusing assumption that there is a clear line that can be drawn between the Pakistani intelligence service and al Qaeda.”

    There sure is, it is called the CIA, and anyone who has done any serious investigation of the attacks of 9/11 would know that the Pakistani Intelligence Service known as the Inter-Services Intelligence or ISI has been completely infiltrated by the CIA for decades, as well as creating and funding the Taliban.

    Fact is that Al-Ciada is a creating of Zbignew Brezenski CFR, and nothing more than the new Bogeyman to replace the now defunct Soviet Union for the military industrial complex.

    As to this current attack in India I have no clue yet who was behind it, indeed if they were targeting British and American nationals they certainly did a piss poor job of it.

    Nalle is nothing more than an alarmist. As to fortress America thats a complete joke. Give me 50 grand and I can guarantee you that I could get in to this country 100 people illegally in a fucking heartbeat. The reason that there has not been anymore attacks on our soil is because the perpetrators inside our secret government have decided not to stage anymore false flag terrorism for the moment. Fortress Amerika my ass,the borders are wide open.

  • pablo

    Not to mention that Mahmud Ahmed former HEAD of the ISI wired Mohamed Atta a hundred grand right before the 9/11 attacks, and on the morning of 9/11 was meeting with Porter Goss, and the former slimeball senator from Florida Bob Graham (who incidentally is one of the primary people responsible for the fox in the henhouse looting of the US Treasury.

    It was just a cozy lil breakfast among friends folks.

    So yeah there is quite the link between Al-Ciada, and the ISI, only trouble is that Nalle will only give you half the story, thats cause he is one of their stooges.

  • Clavos

    sigh…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Heloise @ #14:

    Tamils are, as you observed, from Dravidian stock and look very different from Caucasian Indians. If the Tigers were responsible, there would for sure be numerous eyewitness reports identifying the attackers as Tamil. So far, there aren’t.

    When all is (eventually) said and done, this will probably turn out to have been about Kashmir: and Westerners were likely singled out because targeting them guarantees a lot of international publicity.

    That said, it’s worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of casualties so far have been Indian.

  • Baronius

    Dave – Maybe I’m still in a thanksgiving mood, but I’ve got to say: really solid article.

    Yes, India has a lot of Muslims, but they’ve got a lot more Hindus. It’s definitely worth noting that the terrorists who attacked Mumbai are Muslim, at least for those of us who aren’t in the subcontinent. In South Asia, interreligious butchery isn’t a rarity. In that sense, as tragic as this attack is, there isn’t much that’s ever succeeded in quelling the violence. That’s something that the people have got to figure out how to do on their own. But for the rest of us, any time the words “terrorist” and “Islamic” show up in the same sentence, we’ve got to take notice.

  • Clavos

    Duck, Bar…

  • Baronius

    That’s funny – I looked at Pablo’s comment #36, and noticed that he didn’t mention the CFR. I was shocked. That’s probably the first time that’s ever happened. Then I paged up….

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Dr. D., the problem with India is that there are so many Indians that to get to the westerners you have to kill your way through the locals.

    B-tone, the irony is that if the Indian government gave Kashmir its freedom, all that would do is create yet another hostile muslim government on its borders. It’s a no win situation.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd, re your Comment #31. I disagree, respectfully of course.

    Glen, “This is not a matter of good vs evil.” Hie thee to a sink and cleanse thy mouth with lye soap. Instanter! Those weren’t my words. They were Zedd’s, in a comment directed to me. I hereby disassociate myself from them. Never, never I say, would such blasphemies pass my lips. Even on the day after Thanksgiving.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    Just to be clear, what is it that you respectfully disagree with?

    I enjoy being respected and would like to know what I am being respected with regards to.

    Is it your view that:

    1. Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness has not played a role igniting most uprisings throughout human history?

    2. Americans don’t make generalizations about people from non-Western societies?

    3. Saddam would never have died and his reign would have lasted till the end of time?

    I want to be smarter. Perhaps my perspective is skewed. Please expound. What do you disagree with? Its easy to point at the bad guys but to actually contemplate the causes of a difficult situation is not as fun and we tend to abandon the discussion where we need to begin it.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Dave frankly I don’t care where you were born and YES LOCALE influences the names first and surname FYI, ask any good anthropologist. Because the names are drawn usually from the Old form. Many English names such as my own come from old English. So you are absolutely wrongo in your statement that the father gives the name.

    Dave “Every study of terrorism draws a clear line between mass murder carried out for personal reasons and politically motivated terrorism carried out to achieve a particular political objective. To suggest that such a division does not exist is ridiculous. It makes the term ‘terrorism’ meaningless by potentially including every violent crime in the category.”

    Tell that to the Palin crowd. All politics is local. Then so be it. The term terrorist is a catch-all in my universe and no I am not making the fine distinction of politcal motivation as per the definition. If one person kills a whole damn bunch of people at one time it is terrorism. If it were not then people would not be running for cover for their lives if they did not think they were in danger…hello.

    The purpose is to strike terror and in the bargain people lose rights. But never the right to bear a bunch of arms.

    What the diff between politics and the psychotic really? They are both about zealotry in my book. I call it terrorism and you can call me wrong for so doing.

    Heloise

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    Let me think about it overnight. My first reaction is to say “just about everything in the comment,” but that would be neither respectful nor accurate.

    While I am pondering these things, you might be interested in pondering these two articles, which I found quite interesting. Here is one and here is another. They suggest, at least to me, that Pakistan is on the way down the toilet, that terrorism is a hydra with many heads, each one chopped off resulting in at least two more, and that there is a big problem brewing, likely to make what we have seen thus far resemble a pleasant day at the beach by comparison (no, I am not channeling Ruvy, although perhaps I should be). Whatever may be the answer, and I do not know what it is if there is one, making nice is probably neither viable nor the solution of choice.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    (amendment to last post) Oh, but since you were a misplaced Swede or whatever, then your Swedish name or whatever came from the locale that you would have been born in had you not been born in where ever your were born.

    I am still right locale by way of local language(s)DAMN sure does influence names.

    Heloise

  • Clavos

    I am still right locale by way of local language(s)DAMN sure does influence names.

    I don’t know, Heloise. I have a German surname, yet have never even set foot in Germany, and no one in my ancestral family has been born there since early in the 16th century. In other words, there is no connection whatever, going back more than 400 years.

    And to top it off, my first name is purely Swedish, very rarely found here in the US, and not at all in Mexico, where I was born, and of which I am a citizen.

  • bliffle

    The article starts off with a favorite distraction of the GWB administration:

    “In the United States we’ve now gone for seven years without a significant terror attack within our borders,…”

    The attacks ceased because we withdrew US troops from Saudi holy lands immediately after 9/11/2001. That was what OBL had repeatedly stated that he wanted, and GWB did it.

    That is why OBL turned his attention elsewhere, not the terrorism counter attack tat GWB launched against Afghanistan and Iraq.

    There was no need to attack Iraq, etc. It was wasted warfare.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    I’m with Clavos. The Nalle name likely came over to the US in the mid-17th century. Whatever connection we had to Sweden was lost long, long ago.

    Historically, American Nalles originate in the area of Culpepper Virginia, going back to before the Revolution. But my immediate ancestors left there around the time of the civil war.

    So as Clavos points out, the name can far outlast any actual association with the region of origin.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    You don’t disappoint. Thanks.

  • Irene wagner

    OK I give up! What’s the banned word [12] du jour?
    I’ve not said anything about socialyzm in the comment I’ve been trying to post.

  • Cindy D

    Iraq Approves US Withdrawal Deal

    2:18pm UK, Thursday November 27, 2008
    A security pact which would see US forces withdraw from Iraq by the end of 2011 has been approved by the Iraqi parliament.

  • Irene wagner

    The gist of it was “three cheers for the Indian Commandos without whose bravery there would be two hundred more victims. And India did it all by herself.”

    I’m glad your comment ended up being posted first, Cindy_D.

  • sanjay

    one thing is for sure … the terrorists are all muslims as they always are all over the world

  • Brunelleschi

    I am trying to figure out what Dave’s article contributed besides “Gee, there are bad people out there doing bad things and we better not forget about it….I don’t know for sure who they are, but I just wanted you all to know something bad still happens….”

    The one who makes the most sense is Zedd.

    The discussion on terror in America almost always lacks balance. When a nation hates Osama bin Laden and makes a hero out of Ollie North and can’t see that they are the same people, it’s no wonder.

    Cindy-Six + years ago I wrote on another site that the war in Iraq was about getting private, Western control of a nationalized oil ministry, and the troops can only come home when the oil is secure in private, Western hands. Look up the Iraqi Oil Law if you want to know when the troops can come back and what controls that. All the rest is propaganda.

  • Clavos

    When a nation…makes a hero out of Ollie North…

    Say what?

    What nation would that be?

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    The statement by Sanjay #55: “one thing is for sure … the terrorists are all muslims as they always are all over the world”

    A perfect example of someone who hasn’t paid attention!

    I guess you don’t remember Timothy McVeigh, the Red Faction, the Weather Underground, the Ku Klux Klan; the assassins of Archduke Ferdinand, JFK, MLK (and almost Reagan); the ongoing terrorist attacks in Nepal, Sri Lanka; the death squads in Argentina (and now Mexico); the incessant terrorist acts between Hindu and Muslim in northern India for generations; the Earth Liberation Front…

    …and in the very same breath that you condemn the 1% or so of Muslims who actively support terrorism, you’d BETTER be ready to also condemn mainstream ‘Christianity’ – because mainstream ‘Christianity’ has killed more people in the name of God than any other religion in human history (and if you don’t like that statement, then prove it wrong!).

    So take your apparent prejudice against Muslims and look at it in the cold, hard light of reality, of human history…and you’ll find their history is not much different – and perhaps even more peaceful – than your own.

  • Georgio

    Dave thanks for a very informative article..I sometimes wonder how you have the courage to write anything with all the attacks thrown at you..
    Most of the ppl on this site are very smart but are more interested in padding their own egos than contributing to the article but in a strange way I learn a lot from all of them..
    I like Heloise but she has to learn not to put others down to show how smart she is but then I don’t know if I would enjoy her comments as much..I also liked Zedds comments .
    I would have liked to see more follow up on what Bliffle said because it relates to what bothers me ..and that is ..Why have we not had attacks by suicide bombers on our trains Malls etc. I don’t buy Heloise comments that it is already going on..I think Dave’s comment that there is a difference is more accurate but I have always thought they are already here and are just waiting for orders ..If they wait until Obama is in office I can just hear Clavos saying “I TOLD YOU SO”..so can anyone comment on this ..

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Yep, you can tell we made a hero of Ollie North by the fact that we sent him to jail. We do that as a kind of badge of honor, right?

    As for terrorists and Obama, they don’t see Obama as any different from Bush. Their hostility is not towards any individual leader, but towards the US as the symbol of western depravity and oppression – or at least the most prominent target that represents those beliefs.

    I’m also surpsised at all the opportunities terrorists have not taken advantage of here in the US. I can see points of vulnerability every day. Got to wonder what’s stopping them.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    Georgio asks: “…Why have we not had attacks by suicide bombers on our trains Malls etc….”

    the answer is that what OBL wanted all along was that the USA withdraw it’s troops from Saudi Holy land, and GWB did exactly that soon after 9/11/2001. As I explained in #49, above.

    Now, to OBL (and Zawihiri, apparently the brains behind these things) the USA is no longer a primary target. Yeah, sure, OBL recites the usual anti-USA rhetoric, but he has little reason to attack the USA itself.

    All the posturing by the far right about the Iraq war stalling attacks on the USA are BS, plain and simple. It just doesn’t interest OBL/Zawihiri that much at this time. he’s content to have us bogged down in the Iraq quagmire so we don’t pop into some other war. OBL must be thrilled that stupid ass Bush has now managed to get us bogged down in Afghanistan as well.

    What a curse it is to have a Commander in Chief as dumb and ignorant of strategy as GWB is. How easy he is to tie in knots so that he is no longer important. What fools we are to support the futile Bush war policies.

    Not the least of GWBs ignorant blunders is allowing OBL/Zawihiri to run loose.

  • Cindy D

    Brunelleschi,

    I don’t think you’d find I disagree with you about the war. I was simply neutrally posting an important news article that I hadn’t seen discussed yet.

  • Brunelleschi

    Dave, you and I both know (I would hope) that far too many people held North up as some kind of hero-and still do. He was nothing more than an American OBL.

    We don’t knew if Al Qaeda’s base views Obama as different from Bush. It’s not that simple. The leaders of course will be singing the same tune, but actions do matter.

    I doubt if Obama will have enough power as president to roll back some of the western mistakes/behavior that Al Qaeda is playing up to use against us.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I don’t see that much bargaining has gone on for the hostages, but we’re getting conflicting reports right now. Last night reports were saying that both hotels and the Jewish centre had been recaptured, but today there are new reports which have them still in terrorist hands.

    There was one phone call from the Haba”d House that might have indicated an intention to negotiate. But, to my knowledge, that was the only indication of an intent to negotiate on the part of the terrorists. From what I am aware, the Indians treated this as it should have been treated, a hostile assault to be put down by murdering the perpetrators. It is not possible to know if the attackers ever intended to negotiate – they were kept too busy fighting for their lives.
    And fortunately, they have been killed.

    It would be nice to see Israel show the same determination in crushing Arab terror in Israel. There is no room for it, and terrorists should be killed, not jailed. There should be NO Arab terrorists in Israeli jails. They should have been executed already. It should be clear to every kid listening to a Hamas preacher that attacking Jews means losing his life.

  • Clavos

    It would be nice to see Israel show the same determination in crushing Arab terror in Israel. There is no room for it, and terrorists should be killed, not jailed.

    It IS surprising that the Israelis aren’t more hardassed.

    It may have something to do with their close ties to the land of the feckless and home of the fey.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Clavos you may need to read about slavery and its aftermath. Then there is the geneology wherein one can trace names.

    Both my names are anglo irish due to white slave ancestors. They may have come from England don’t know, not me. But I’ve had many past-life associations with both England and Russia naturally.

    Many many people including my own Cuban relatives changed the surname and had to flee Cuba way back when. Now we don’t know what the heck the name was before it was changed…it is now Berea.

    Someone in your family may have seen a German word and decided to use it and there was a name change in your family. You nor I can say for sure unless you have done family histories.

    Have you done that?

    When people got to Ellis Island they would often Anglocize their names. Many people dropped the “Mc” other not.

    Again, I stick to my POV. Name origins is a fascinating area of study for me. I’ve been doing it as a hobby only for the past 30 years, that’s all.

    I use the letters of names in what I call “name pattern recognition” wherein a person has many letters in common with their name of a past life. Especially the aspects of that life they are reliving. It sounds like you were probably German in a recent past life.

    It is actually very complex. In the future people will study my work and then study their own past lives along the lines I’ve laid out.

    Heloise

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Thanks Georgio, but sometimes I get paranoid and kill a fly with a hammer because I’ve been online for a decade fighting with folks who have beat me every which way with words!

    My argument is that people here, especially Dave, immediately point out that I’m wrong, no matter what I say I am NEVER making a real COGENT or correct point. So, I do get in a huff. That’s par for the Blavatsky course you might say.

    That’s just me.

    Heloise

    But glad youd said you enjoy because I make myself LOL all the time.

  • Clavos

    Heloise,

    Someone in your family may have seen a German word and decided to use it and there was a name change in your family. You nor I can say for sure unless you have done family histories.

    Have you done that?

    All the way back to the early 1500s.

    In my direct line, the name is unchanged since then, and those with my surname actually were Catholics in southern Germany. Much later, one of my ancestors, who fought with Napoleon, wound up moving to Sweden in the early nineteenth century, where the family has resided ever since, except for my paternal grandfather (now deceased), who came to America as a young man in the early twentieth century, married an American-born girl whose father (my great-grandfather) was also German–his surname is my middle name. My father was the only person who carried my surname from birth to be born in America (New York), as my siblings and I were all born in Mexico, where my parents moved shortly after marrying.

    Still working on the genealogy prior to the 16th century, but the records are much fewer and more difficult to find.

    I know the names, birth and death dates and locations of every one of my ancestors, direct and indirect, back to the early 1500s.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd, you ask (Comment #44),

    Is it your view that:

    1. Frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness has not played a role igniting most uprisings throughout human history? I don’t know about “most,” but they certainly have played significant roles. Japan’s motivations for entering World War II seem to have been somewhat different. However, these factors had a lot to do with Hitler’s rise to power in Germany, with the rise of Communism in what became the U.S.S.R. and with the empowerment of North Korea’s post World War II great leaders. However, the fact that frustration, hopelessness and powerlessness often catalyze such things does not, to me at least, suggest that they should be ignored. The United States and other nations had to defeat Germany and Japan, and the United States, assisted by a token United Nations force, had to defeat North Korea when she invaded South Korea. Much blood was shed, but on balance I think the world is a more pleasant place than it would have been had the U.S. sat on the sidelines. Fortunately, the U.S.S.R. fell of her own weight without military intervention; unfortunately, she appears now to be in a revival mode.

    The current terrorist attacks are different from “civilized” war; non-combatants are targeted almost exclusively, and small children are used as suicide bombers. Religious fanaticism, whatever may be its root causes, is a primary factor and a very bad thing. The September 11th terrorist attack on the United States, and the more recent attack in India, probably had a lot to do with religious fanaticism. The desire for riches appears to be a principal factor motivating the Pirates of Somalia. Going back many hundreds of years to find, analyze and ameliorate the root causes does not seem likely to do much good at this point. It would also take a very long time, and I don’t think we can wait.

    2. Americans don’t make generalizations about people from non-Western societies? Of course they do. They also make generalizations about people from Western societies. French people smell bad and eat frogs, everyone south of the border lives on tacos, and Central America in general is pretty much like many border towns. Not true; well, not entirely, anyway. Many people in Central America may well assume that Miami is representative of the United States as a whole and that U.S. television programs and movies represent reality. I don’t know what the French think, but it probably is not very nice.

    It would be very useful if everyone between the ages of eighteen and twenty-one could spend a couple of years making grand bicycle tours of the world, living among “the people.” This might help perceptions to approach reality more closely; unfortunately, it seems unlikely to happen.

    3. Saddam would never have died and his reign would have lasted till the end of time? Yes, of course he would have died. His reign might well have outlasted him, however, until long past the end of time for lots of people in Iraq and elsewhere.

    I realize that this is not an adequate response, and to make amends I will try to write an article over the next few days delving more deeply into these and other related matters. In the meantime, here, for your amusement, are a few questions for you.

    1. Assume that you are a passenger on a freighter two hundred miles off the coast of Somalia, and it is attacked by a bunch of guys in small but fast speed boats. A dozen security guards, armed with rocket launchers and assault rifles, is on board your freighter and want to fire at the attackers, but ask your advice first. What would you suggest?

    2. Assume that you are in a small village in Israel, under attack by rockets fired by Palestinian freedom fighters. The house next door is destroyed, and a nearby school is hit with several kids killed and more badly injured. How, if at all, would you suggest that the Israeli Government respond?

    3. Assume that you had the power to direct the United Nations to respond to these two scenarios. What would you direct the United Nations to do?

    Dan(Miller)

  • Lumpy

    Heloise. there are no past lives. you are delusional. have you sought psychiatric help?

    Bruno. you make the common mistake of assuming that because a US policy pisses off some soc!alist goons or a tinhorn dictator or a bunch of psychotic child murderers it is The US which is at fault and needs to change.

    So, so wrong. We are known by the enemies we make and being hated by tranzi stooges and theocratic terrorists is a mark of honor and a sign we’re doing something right. If we were making them happy then we’d have lost our way.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    I’ll address your answer to #1 first. The refrigerator calls, dessert beckons and I wont disappoint….

    You make an excellent point however, I didn’t assert that violence should be ignored. Lets move away from that.

    Now, the fact that the upheavals come from frustration is not enough. What must be assessed for “civilized” societies is if their claims are legitimate. If the beefs have legitimacy, than we’ve go work to do. It is imperative that those who would seek a moral imperative, should be moral. Designing the most elaborate and largest PR campaign does not make one right.

    On the issue of the manner of engaging in warfare…. Are you saying that no one can retaliate or cause warfare unless they have a large army, one that is large enough to engage with the powers that be? Are you saying that when the militaries of the “civilized” cause the deaths of children and the innocent, it is more justifiable or less abhorrent? Are you saying that when declaring war that the civilized don’t anticipate innocent casualties? Help me out here.

    I’ll respond to the rest later. My refrigerator is insisting that I give it some attention. That peach cobbler is such a pest.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    I’ve eaten way too much. Thoughts of Fatso the movie came to mind as I was devouring.

    To answer your first question.

    1. I think that a system of protection should be initiated. We live and learn. Now we know that the seas are no longer safe so we put practices into place that prevent the crooks from causing havoc.

    2.First I would move. Then ask the Israeli government to figure out a way to make peace with its neighbors. Israel is in the Middle East not Europe. They cant piss everyone off around them and expect to live well. So I’d ask my government to sober up, quit digging in because of what happened in Europe a half a century ago or Egypt or wherever. Deal with this situation, give what you HAVE to give and move on. Being mistreated in the past does not give you the right to be the bad guys today.

    3. Do a thorough analysis of the causes of the situations. HEAVILY sanction those that propel the situation.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Zedd,

    Your answers in comment #72 are what mark you as someone who can’t be take seriously.

    Your ignorance of history is as encyclpedic as your lack of understanding of the choice that faces the Israeli.

    The Arabs have made THEIR position clear. They do not want us to live here; they do not want us to die here. But, if we do not leave, they’ll cause us to die here. Their hate is paplpable.

    THAT IS THEIR BOTTOM LINE AND ALL THE REST IS BULLSHIT AND MANEUVERING TO GET TO THAT BOTTOM LINE. Even the Moslem pricks in Mumbai targeted innocent Jews and murdered them off! And they are not even Arabs; but they are infected by the same hate the Arabs are!

    First I would move.

    And where would you move if you were a Jew in Israel? Would you move to Mumbai where some Moslem would kill you off for being a Jew? Maybe you would move to Jo-burg, where the blacks would hate you and the Afrikaners would be bigoted against you? Maybe you could move to Paris, where the Moslems could gang-rape you while the Christians snicker in their sleeves? Or better yet, to Kiev, where the Ukrainians could beat you up after they rape you? Or maybe you can run to America, where if you do not get attacked for being Jewish, you can lose your heritage when your child(ren) marry non-Jews?

    THERE IS A REASON FOR A JEWISH STATE. THE REASON IS THAT AFTER 2,000 YEARS OF PERSECUTION, THE JEWISH STATE IS OUR FINAL REFUGE IN OUR LAND.

    IF IT IS INDEED G-D’S WILL THAT WE DIE, AT LEAST WE DIE WITH HONOR, DEFENDING OUR HOMES WITH RIFLES FIRING AND GRENADES LAUNCHING – AND IF WE HAVE THE STRENGTH AND GUTS, WE CAN TAKE MILLIONS OF ARABS ANDS OTHER ENEMIES DOWN WITH US WHEN WE DIE AND MAKE THE REST OF THE STINKING LOT OF HUMANITY REMEMBER US FOREVER WHEN WE MAKE NUCLEAR GLASS OUT OF OIL FIELDS AND OF CITIES LIKE ROME, BERLIN, AND KIEV, SO THAT THE JEW-HATERS OF THE WORLD REMEMBER, HOW IN THOSE LAST DAYS HOW WE INDEED DID POISON THE WELLS AND TOOK VENGEANCE ON OUR PERSECUTORS.

    That is what free men with spines do, Zedd. Your path is the path of the coward and the slave.

    And it is most assuredly NOT my path.

    In YOUR stinking world, peace comes in the grave, or when your enemy is dead and rotting on the ground.

    Mumbai and the murder of Rabbi and Rebbetzin Holtzberg, z”l, HY”D, is the reminder that all YOUR talk of “peace on earth” is just a pack of shit.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Well, since you put it that way…

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy, please read this. It’s written by a rabbi from the chabad organization, who is grieving the death of the rabbi and his wife who represented chabad in Mumbai.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Irene,

    Thank you for posting what you did.

    I am not from the Haba”d stream of Judaism and to be perfectly honest with you, I think they are wrong to do what they are doing in sending another couple to Mumbai: not because Jews should run away from exile, but because it is time for them to come home. There is a big difference.

    They talk of building a building twice as tall as the Nariman House that housed them previously. This is foolishness. They should be thinking in terms of shepherding Jews who think they have it made in India (cheap drugs, cheap girls, etc.) home before the Redemption, where they will be safer than overseas.

    The Haba”d has done wonderful work in the world, and they should be praised for their efforts. They helped me (a little bit) when I was homeless years ago. But it appears to me that events are coming to a climax soon and that it is indeed time for all of us, round the world, to turn to Zion and seek our home. The last lines of this entry at my blogsite, repeated here, explain why:

    One final point, a cherry on the cake of prediction, here. For this we must go back to the Dreaming of Moshiach blog-site. Upon close reading, we find that the blogger is a Satmar lady. She writes here, “At at least two locations, he gave a very strong and direct message, that Jews must move to the Holy Land NOW!!! R’ Shwartz is not any kind of “zionist….”

    The Satmar generally care little for the State of Israel or for the Zionist movement that created it. When a Satmar talks about “Aliya Now!” it is truly time to pay attention.

    I suggest you read my piece in its entirety, even though it is not strictly appropriate for you to.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    Yeah, I guess so. Maybe this would work.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Ruvy,

    I thought you were ignoring my comments.

    I didn’t post my response to Dan thinking that you would approve or see it as reasonable. You like drama and confusion. You will find any peaceful, even rational solution to be wrong and not enough. I think I’ve already stated that I think you are bitter and can’t stop yourself. You are broken. You don’t get to be an expert on solutions for peace. You can’t and don’t process ideas in a way that would be conducive to peace. You are mad about being mad for being mad because you are mad. Your ramblings and long laundry list of “done me wrongs” fill you. Regardless of whether the other side has their equally LEGIT, long list of complaints and wounds, you will hold yours near your heart as a comfort. You like drama. You go looking for it, even on these boards. This weakness makes you inconsequential. You are one of multitudes of angry problem children around the world. Who would have multitudes die just to be proven right. Radicals (who are mostly young kids) are a dime a dozen. If you want to stand out, think of real solutions. Pouting isn’t a special skill.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    Thanks for that link. Brought back memories of my early youth. I sang along.

    Looks like you really like those broad strokes. It’s either this or that. Either you want to bomb or you are a hippie. Strange really for a man who made a living parsing. I thought that talented attorneys had to have a gift of good reasoning; deducing.

    Now…

    Should I take it that you don’t agree or that you agree but want to throw a jab in there to sightly dismiss the significance of what I stated.

    If you are saying that military action is the one tool that can be used to communicate with those who we disagree with. I think that Al Qaeda and all of the nut fringe groups would agree with you.

    Being civilized incorporates being civil.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    You guessed correctly. I don’t agree, and I did not intend to be merely slightly dismissive.

    True, a military solution may not be the only potentially viable response, even now. However, that point is rapidly being approached if we aren’t there yet. Perhaps if the ten or more terrorists who killed two to three hundred people in India recently had been raised in a peaceful atmosphere of love and understanding, they would not have behaved as they did. For whatever reason, however, they were not nice people, with whom one could legitimately expect to sit down and reason.

    The only terrorist captured alive after the Mumbai massacre has given police the first full account of the extraordinary events that led to it – revealing he was ordered to ‘kill until the last breath’.

    Azam Amir Kasab, 21, from Pakistan, said the attacks were meticulously planned six months ago and were intended to kill 5,000 people.

    He revealed that the ten terrorists, who were highly trained in marine assault and crept into the city by boat, had planned to blow up the Taj Mahal Palace hotel after first executing British and American tourists and then taking hostages.

    We can, I suppose, “buy the world a coke” and seek non-violent ways out of this sort of mess, while praying that sweet reason may prevail. In the meantime, being prepared for repetitions of the Mumbai massacre and killing the fanatics who engage in this type of anti-social behavior are, in my opinion, the first lines of defense.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    In the meantime, being prepared for repetitions of the Mumbai massacre and killing the fanatics who engage in this type of anti-social behavior are, in my opinion, the first lines of defense.

    Quoted for Truth.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    The fact is that we don’t have enough resources to disperse to every kilometer of the planet to insure that no terroristic activity takes place. We have to employ WISDOM. It is a fantasy that we can fight everyone who wants to do us harm. WE CANT. So what do we do? We think of what IS doable.

    Again the cowboy approach is a fantasy of boys who grew up in the John Wayne era. Nothing more. It’s becoming problematic and a challenge to world security. We need to move away from Reagan’s fantasy of tough talk as a strategy and ACT smart.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Zedd,

    No matter what I think, this is the hard rock in front of my face.

    The Arabs have made THEIR position clear. They do not want us to live here; they do not want us to die here. But, if we do not leave, they’ll cause us to die here. Their hate is paplpable.

    THAT IS THEIR BOTTOM LINE AND ALL THE REST IS BULLSHIT AND MANEUVERING TO GET TO THAT BOTTOM LINE.

    So, as much as I might want peace or this or that, I, and every single other Israeli, has to deal with that rock. The only solution I can think of is to blow up that rock – in other words, a military solution.

    For a number of years between 1993 and 2000, many Israelis tried to delude themselves that the Arabs indeed wanted peace, and the media, government and all the NGO’s were always there to say, just one more concession….

    It didn’t work.

    Therefore there needs to be war, and the Arab enemy, the Iranian enemy, and the American, European and Russian enemy must be dealt with.

    As if that weren’t enough, there are the big ego, big chedcbook Jews like Haim Saban and Danny Abraham and the idiots who run the OU, Americans for Peace Now, J-Street nd all the other big ego big money know-it-alls who think they know what is best for us.

    This, too is the bottom line.

    I wish it weren’t true. But it is, and all the bullshitting in the world won’t change that.

    My attitudes are shaped accordingly.

    You do not like that and whine that I’m mad. I’m sane and yoiu are an ignoramus. That is all there is to it.

  • Zedd

    Fine Ruvy. Just keep all that to yourself. You are poisoning the stratosphere.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    I’m guessing you are ditching the entire civilized thingy. You and your blood brother Ruvy have the solutions all wrapped up. Bomb! With what money, what military, how many casualties, until when, without making MORE enemies, to what end? Smart.

    Clavos,

    Pipe up.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Your lies poison the stratosphere, Zedd – along with everything else.

  • Doug Hunter

    Ruvy,

    I think peace can be achieved, you just need to compromise. Give back all lands claimed by the Palestinians and open your borders like we have here in the US. Instead of trying to kill you then they’ll simply try to overwhelm and outvote you. A peaceful end to the conflict rather than eternal war.

  • Zedd

    Doug,

    Tiny minds are part of Gods creation too. Huuuuug

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Yes, of course Ruvy is poisoning the stratosphere and should cease and desist forthwith. He, and like minded folks are the problem; the folks who attacked in Mumbai are just guys in the neighborhood, trying to right past wrongs. Never mind information such as this which is now becoming available.

    Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

    “Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing,” a doctor said.

    Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: “It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim’s body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words,” he said.

    Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: “It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood,” one doctor said.

    The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: “Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,” he said.

    Boys will be boys.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    But they’re also human beings, Dan(Miller). Surely, they, like we, will listen to reason. At heart, they all they want is peace, just like us. All we have to do is appeal to their better natures, listen to their grievances, rectify their problems and all will be peaceful throughout the world.

    We can start by killing all the Jews…

    If that doesn’t appease them, we’ll kill all the Americans (except for the muslims, of course).

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Doug,

    I think peace can be achieved, you just need to compromise.

    Doug, don’t you read? Let’s try this one more time for the slow kids in the class:

    For a number of years between 1993 and 2000, many Israelis and other Jews tried to delude themselves that the Arabs indeed wanted peace, and the media, government and all the NGO’s were always there to say, just one more concession….

    It didn’t work.

    What does that mean, “it didn’t work”?. In July of 2000, reports had reached intelligence in Israel of major arms buildups in the Arab controlled parts of Israel. Right before Rosh haShana, the Arabs started a rebellion, using the visit by Netanyahu to the Temple Mount as their excuse. That rebellion has cost over 1,000 Israeli dead and over 3,000 Arab dead. Of the Israelis killed, the majority were innocent women and children. Of thte Arabs, the majority killed were arms-bearing terrorists /rebels.

    We tried your path of compromise and it turned into nothing but a bloody mess – literally. What we haven\’t tried is war, expulsions and driving the Arabs out of OUR land.

    IT’S TIME TO GIVE VICTORY A CHANCE!

  • Zedd

    Dan(M),

    You come from a people who have cause unimaginable death and destruction to multitudes for centuries. Being a White American, we could say the same thing about you that you so smugly say about those who feel justified in their actions.

    It’s really really strange to me how you guys forget that you’ve been the bad guys since this country’s conception. You clean it up and pad it but the truth is the truth. The pain and destruction that has been caused is cruel and unhuman. It’s only been 40yrs since Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act. I’m sure you’ll be preparing a statement about how your ancestors just arrived last week…. You benefited from the evils of this country’s history. You personally gained from it and so you are a part of it. Put the wagging finger down.

    Now that we’ve sobered up, lets move further. Lets look at our world more realistically and leave John Wayne where he needs to be, a figment of some creative persons imagination. Your insisting on joking and exaggerating my position is sad. You’d rather perpetuate policies that don’t work and WILL most certainly expand “terrorism” than actual humanize these people and figure out a strategy that will halt the madness.

    While we are at it, what about that crazy notion of man creating a flying machine. What about the kooks that said a man could go to the moon. Heck we know first off all that the earth is flat and that the son is God’s eye. Those highfalutin folks thinkin they can sneak those devilish fancy ideas on to y’all real thinkin folk.

  • Zedd

    I love the add on this page with all non Europeans made to look REALLY sinister (and darkened for some odd reason), including our own President Elect, and the word TERRORIST plastered on. Delusions of White men. And we all just go along pretending like its not embarrassingly, abysmally ignorant.

  • Clavos

    You personally gained from it and so you are a part of it.

    Hogwash. I refuse to accept any complicity or responsibility at all. This is one of the most pernicious (and idiotic) ideas to come out of the civil rights movement. MLK is spinning in his grave. In this regard, I have no conscience and do not feel an iota of guilt. Get over it.

    Put the wagging finger down.

    Physician, heal thyself.

    While we are at it, what about that crazy notion of man creating a flying machine. What about the kooks that said a man could go to the moon.

    Bad analogy. Those were engineering and physics challenges.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Ruvy you know you are screaming with the CAPS on don’t you? Are you screaming at Zedd or at yourself for being Jewish. Precisely what you write in the Jewish people-absorbed Jewish people obsession is why Jews are hunted…yes, I’ve read Paul Johnson’s “History of the Jews” and have a library full of books about Jews because I study my past life when I was Jew.

    My grandfather was somehow obsessed with Jews, even though he was Catholic and passed on that obsession to his children and grandchildren, and that includes me.

    Anyway, people called anti-Semitic hate Jews. Why is that? I think all the prophecies about same are laid out in the most popular book in the world the BIBLE. Ruvy you are quick to throw around prophecies about Obama and the US of A. What about the prophecies of your own Israeli Jewish people? You seem to ignore those, or excuse my ignorance.

    As for torture, I hate the sound of the very word and weep for those who were tortured by anyone. But again when Jews, or maybe white people, are killed and tortured it is vastly more historical and important than when blacks were tortured and brought to these shores by WASPs and Jews alike.

    Did Jews participate in the slave trade? Yes, they most certainly did. There were also blacks who owned slaves.

    Heloise

    PS: Ruvy please don’t attack me personally and call me anti-semitic as it would be anti-climatic since I am a self-confessed one…reformed anti-semitic, that is.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    Sigh, some of my ancestors were in the United States before the Revolutionary War. At least I think I’m guilty, because my mother was asked to become a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution. I confess. The United States is wicked and those who oppose her are righteous. I shall sin no more.*

    Dan(Miller)

    *at least for half an hour, while taking my mid-day nap, made possible by all those little people oppressed by my ancestors.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Have you guys heard the latest? Indians protesting with SIGNS in the street that read according to one of the Sunday shows “the politicians should have been killed instead of the people”…Why? Because they said as Heloise said that IT SHOULD HAVE been anticipated, there was intelligence, and could have been largely prevented.

    There are now many resignations for same. And again it has been absolutely confirmed what I said here, read the time and date of my first comment: IT WAS the Kashmir stuff via Pakistan which shares a border with the Punjab part of India, where I lived for over a month. And where they take great precautions. And they are a tribe, not a nation and they KNOW how to protect its visitors.

    Great goings to Indian protestors. Yes, the politicians were fiddling as the terrorists took turns torturing, burning and shooting.

    Get some NEW leaders who will know what it means to protect. And WTF happened to the billions we have sent that prostitute I call Pakistan?

    I want to KNOW what they are doing with that money…No oversight you say? What else is new, or who else knew?

    Heloise

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    What you believe is irrelevant. Its a fact. You are the same guy who thinks that Jefferson didn’t know that Blacks were MEN. That they didn’t know what they were doing. The fact is, this country would not be what it is without the free, then very cheap labor of its first 200yrs. Why do you think we had to import Mexicans after Blacks started expecting equal pay, etc. Mexicans are doing the work that Blacks used to do. When I snap my fingers you can wake up.

    The point wasn’t about a particular discipline. It was about simply believing that something can’t be so just because you can’t imagine it. Okay how about, Negroes can’t do the same kind of work that White men can. Does that analogy help you? Are you a changed man. Did the angels sing and harps play. Do you now see the light? Still as a door knob. Bless you.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Clavos I’ll add my two cents: whites have to heal the white part of the slavery and white supremist thing IMHO. As for gaining from slavery? Man you should read the many, many books and papers on how the BANKS that we just bailed out, began during John Adams days, were what they became because of the SLAVE TRADE.

    What made America great: the rice industry in the Carolinas. Why because slaves had the “technology” with their baskets and taught the whites how to raise rice and separate it using this black/African/slave technology.

    Yes, everyone here, black, white, Indian and purple people eaters benefitted from slavery. Since I believe in rebirth I won’t point a finger at you or any white person, hell I was always a white person as my family was, we are reborn as black people…who have been mistaken for every race and nationality under the sun.

    Heloise

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    It’s obvious that you are not the person to make assessments about global issues, it would seem. You seem rather sheltered (or in denial) about your world. Your hard and fast (although nicely disguised) are destructive to the advancement of stability. I guess once one has retired, its just too much trouble to rethink the way you thought the world was.

    You seem to be a little snippy lately. Has the election affected you to that extent? You were so reasonable when you first came aboard. Now you take every chance to sneak in a sting and a jab. Well you are in retirement. You can do as you choose.

    By the way, have you thought about writing a book again? Your articles are getting longer and longer.

  • Irene wagner

    Who is amassing enough money during this world-wide financial crisis to be the champion in a world-wide war against terror? He’s rich enough to buy the world a Coke, or whatever he feels like making it drink, I suppose.

    Ruvy, (#75,76) I know you’re not chabad! I’m not either. My “aliyah” is Jesus. Still, there is something in the Rabbi’s letter that impressed me: the lubbavitchers aren’t waiting for the crisis to be over before they resume practicing what they understand to be every-day goodness.

    Though there is more than one nineteen year old Muslim (planning his next Mumbai-esque adventure even as we speak)for whom a can of Coke delivered ten years back might have made all the difference, mercy isn’t going to stop war entirely.

    And vice verse. It is what it is.

  • Clavos

    What you believe is irrelevant.

    Sometimes it is. But what I’m expressing here is not my belief, it’s what I am, and I am not responsible for slavery, period. No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it will never be true.

    You are the same guy who thinks that Jefferson didn’t know that Blacks were MEN

    Cite where I said that. I didn’t.

    The fact is, this country would not be what it is without the free, then very cheap labor of its first 200yrs

    Possibly true.

    Given all the negatives connected with slavery, division of the nation, the Civil War, which took more American lives than any war before or since (single battles, Missionary Ridge, e.g., had higher American casualties than all of the Vietnam war), this nation would have been much better off without that terrible toll, and likely would be a much greater country, morally and spiritually, and would be more unified now, had we not imported slaves.

    Why do you think we had to import Mexicans

    We don’t import them, Mexico exports them. The exportation reduces their unemployment and poverty levels and takes pressure off their social services, which are minimally funded. The money they send home is their second or third largest source of foreign revenue. The Mexican government actively encourages them to leave.

    It was about simply believing that something can’t be so just because you can’t imagine it

    You still don’t get it. It’s “not so” because I refuse the responsibility.

    Simply because you say it,does not make it so. That’s called wishful thinking.

  • Zedd

    I guess my point is that Ruvy can freely spew his hate online without fear of anyone fearing him or thinking that he will bomb anyone any day soon. However if an Arab guy expresses as much a Ruvy has, he would be thought to be dangerous. That is that world that we live in. People who are “Europeanized” like Ruvy, get to be treated more respectfully, regardless of how dangerous their ideas are. What that results in is a self fulfilling prophesy.

    The only leg that Ruvy has to stand on is that he could pass for White. That’s it. So he blabs on like a spoiled brat, spewing hate all over the web and claiming anti semitism when people disagree with him.

    I heard the statements of a Rabbi from the local chabad and they were beautiful. He was sad but expressed a need for healing and a continuation of the difficult work of restoration and forgiveness. I’m guessing Ruvy would consider him an antisemite. Even though he seems to hate all semites that aren’t of the Jewish faith.

  • Clavos

    Clavos I’ll add my two cents: whites have to heal the white part of the slavery and white supremist thing IMHO.

    It’s already been done. it’s called the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    What made America great: the rice industry in the Carolinas

    Actually, cotton “was king.” Even on those Carolina Gullah islands, which I know like the back of my hand, having cruised the Carolinas and Georgia for more than twenty years (you’ve heard of Sea Island cotton, haven’t you?).

    And yes, slaves worked it, too.

    Yes, everyone here, black, white, Indian and purple people eaters benefitted from slavery.

    As I pointed out above, the nation was more harmed, than benefited, by slavery.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Heloïse,

    You’ll never hear me call you anti-Semitic (well you won’t read me writing that you are anti-Semitic). Anti-Semite is just a cleaned up term for Jew-hater, and anti-Semitism is just a pretty word for judenhass – Jew-hatred.

    I use the term Jew-hater almost exclusively.

    But I’m not calling you names, and I’m certainly not attacking you personally.

    Jews did participate, as you say they did, in the slave trade.

    I don’t worry why Jews are hunted or hated. It’s not my problem. It’s my job, as a Jew, to make sure that the hater/hunter does not actualize his desire to kill me or mine. The hunter’s hatred, in other words, is not to be my problem but that of the hating hunter. That way I keep my sanity and do not become the neurotic Jew of Paul Sartre’s essays.

    In other words, dear, no excuses or explanations; only sissies try to talk themselves out of a beating. If you have an enemy, beat the bastard bloody, gang up and beat him unconscious, or kill him – whatever it takes to make sure that the hater/hunter turns his hatred elsewhere, or gets buried along with his hatred and desire to kill.

    That was the concept of “barzél yisraél” taught by Rav Meir Kahane, z”l, hy”d (of blessed memory, may G-d redeem his blood), of the Jewish Defense League. The other principal concept was ahavát yisraél, love of and pride in Israel. That concept had the rich Jewish establishment in America always shitting in their pants. They love to ape the goyim, and be just like them. They were and still are willing to help poor Jews ape goyim. Otherwise, they want nothing to do with them.

    Rav Kahane taught Jewish pride and Jewish power; while non-Jews could understand both, the ghetto-minded Jews with all the money couldn’t. And still can’t.

    As for the caps and the bold print, you are very pereceptive. I am screaming at a woman who should have far more intelligence and understanding of Jewish pride and willingness to fight and kill than she does. You would think that the granddaughter of Zulu warriors would respect another warrior. And in Zedd’s case, you would think wrong.

    The racism in the main-stream media dismisses the deaths and suffering of those who have dark skin and magniciies that of those who don’t. This racism is disgusting. Go look at all the comments articles about Sudan, South Africa and Zimbabwe do not get here. This is the only article here about the very well executed attack on Mumbai. Why? In the minds of most white people, Indians are wogs who are best seen and not heard or heard about. In addition, there is that self-absorbed American mentality….

    Finally:

    Why do I raise American leaders is all of my comments about Jewish prophecy? Our sages tell us that in the End of Days Israel will have to contend with both Ishmael and Esav. Ishmael is repesented by the Arabs. Esav is represented by America, Europe and Iran.

    Obama, who has both Moslem and Christian ancestry, represents, prophetically speaking, both Ishmael and Esav (remember, his mother is white). Also, if I am correct (correct me here if need be – you know better than I), there is a Moslem prophecy that in the End of Days before the Day of Judgment, a powerful black leader will arise. Thabo Mbeki and Jacob Zuma are not my version of “powerful black leader”. Obama, on the other hand….

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    “I am not responsible for slavery, period.”

    Calm down. No one ever said you were.

    That’s just weird.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy,

    I told you years ago that I understand your pride. I get it. But you are angry and bitter. You’ve got to let it go. I did.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    Once the reeducation camps are in place, I shall consider surrendering. That’s a promise — I shall “consider” it. Not necessarily seriously, though.

    In the meantime, while I continue to make poorly formed assessments about global issues, who sold the Africans to the White New England merchants who eventually got some of them to what became the southern United States? For that matter, who continues to have a presumably benign slave trade?

    In Mauritania, despite slave ownership having been banned by law in 1981, hereditary slavery continues. Moreover, according to Amnesty International:

    “Not only has the government denied the existence of slavery and failed to respond to cases brought to its attention, it has hampered the activities of organisations which are working on the issue, including by refusing to grant them official recognition”.

    Imam El Hassan Ould Benyamin of Tayarat in 1997 expressed his views about earlier proclamations ending slavery in his country as follows:

    “[it] is contrary to the teachings of the fundamental text of Islamic law, the Quran … [and] amounts to the expropriation from muslims of their goods; goods that were acquired legally. The state, if it is Islamic, does not have the right to seize my house, my wife or my slave.”

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    I’m guessing all of those middle class households with Black nannies didn’t benefit from the cheap labor that came because of racist America. If it was so horrible for Whites America to be racists, why did it go on for 200yrs? Why were they willing to kill each other over it? Rhetorical. Don’t bother to answer. This is silly.

    You like speaking up for the aristocracy, our racist history, and Dave (off course). It is what it is… funny. Lets move on.

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    Not sure what that has to do with our discussion.

    The point is that you are not the good guys. You’ve just been forced to behave momentarily. So enough with the finger wagging and focus on real solutions.

  • Zedd

    Better walk away from this boys, lest I start frothing at the mouth like Ruvy. Need to maintain a tiny bit of dignity. Besides cute girls aren’t supposed to be seen beating boys up.

    Next time chaps.

  • Clavos

    So enough with the finger wagging

    Sauce for the goose…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    Not sure what that has to do with our discussion. Think about it. I suspect you can find some relevance if you look.

    The point is that you are not the good guys. You’ve just been forced to behave momentarily. So enough with the finger wagging and focus on real solutions.

    But but but … who are the good guys (or, of course, good gals)? Those who forced us to behave momentarily? And who might they be?

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    There are none.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Re comment #115: In that event, Good bye cruel world. I shall go to a better place. But first, I shall pause briefly at the liquor cabinet, after rescuing a few ice cubes from the freezer.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Ruvy, thanks for your response. It’s beautiful really.

    But the black leader of prophecy who may arise, may yet have risen.

    But since 2012 is close at hand he could be the one. I know more than I can tell. I have been given a task (on the inner planes) within this admin and it will be interesting to see what happens. Reality happens not on the physical but on the mental plane as any good esotericist knows.

    But your answer about anti-semitic vs jew hater is fascinating. Why? Because I used to argue with my detractors that I was no jew hater. In fact I had many Jewish male friends both as BFFs and lovers. I don’t think a hater would go THERE.

    You are right. Netemara argued with other Jews, unsuccessfully that she WAS NOT anti-semitic. That is why I became a blogger because the explosive arguments we had on TTT made everyone abandon me, my group and I had to start over from scratch.

    In fact just around JFK’s birthday a Jewish guy living in Hawaii who was over the moon about Net GAVE me his group to takeover and continue!! How’s that for irony? I could not convince them who I was. A hater, a true racial hater like the KKK wants to see the group he/she hates dead period.

    That is the real definition. But then there is the definition of racism and that is what I thought that anti-semitic meant. Racists or white supremists don’t necessarily want to kill the people they oppress that would be stupid. First work them to death….

    As for the Arabs being the first slavers or the creators of chattel slavery and the black Africans being complicit it is a matter of history.

    Heloise yes it is the french version of Elohim. And my nickname as a child was Yaya.

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Zedd #100 comment LOL. I noticed some of these comments are dissertation-long what’s up with that? Are we that damn erudite here at BC? I’m stupid, I’m no Aryan but a poor dumb Atlantean so don’t blame me.

    Heloise

  • http://www.thepolitikos.com Heloise

    Krystal said something intelligent alert:

    Just watched Sunday Fox News with Chris Wallace and Bill Krystal actually said something that made sense for the first time in his journalistic life: he said this was a diplomatic moment (paraphrase) and that Condi Rice should haul ass over to India and make nice with them because they are our friends, not JUST Pakistan.

    Juan Williams then says something a little contrarian to that. But Krystal actually said something akin to good advice or reasonable.

    He has singlehandedly given the pundit class a black eye with his lack of insight, foresight and well just common political sense.

    Heloise

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Zedd eredted an impressive monument to her racist delusions up there. On balance, the good which Europeans have done enormously outweighs the ‘evil’ which they have done in the world. Their oppressive actions are the same as those engaged in by every other society throughout history which dominated others. The good which they have done is unique and has few historic parallels. But by all means, carry on with your myth making.

    I’m guessing all of those middle class households with Black nannies didn’t benefit from the cheap labor that came because of racist America.

    Those households provided good jobs with competitive salaries and good benefits for households which needed an additional income.

    I never had the benefit of having a black nanny, nor did either of my parents. For reasons I’ve never understood, my grandparents on one side would only hire girls brought over directly from Ireland, and on the other side they only hired Swedish nannies. I have no idea why. I was largely looked after by a Palestinian houseboy when I was a kid.

    But I wish I could afford a black nanny for my kids. I think it would be a culturally enriching experience for them.

    Dave

  • STM

    The silver surfer has made his views on this very plain here

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    “Those households provided good jobs with competitive salaries and good benefits for households which needed an additional income.”

    You are sadly sick. You will never understand just how much so i wont address it. I’m guessing however that those nannies would have preferred a world where they could have careers that were better than that. Just a thought. Wonder why hoards of White nannies weren’t found in the Black communities?

  • Zedd

    STM,

    You look almost exactly the way that I imagined you. You are quite a looker! No wonder you are so charming.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Zedd, you display a dismaying ignorance of history and what society was like just a couple of generations ago. Those black maids and nannys were making a breakthrough for their race, even if it doesn’t seem that way to you today. One of my grandmothers only hired Irish immigrants because she didn’t want to have blacks in her house. The other treated her black servants like they were family members and helped put their kids through college. She was more progressive and a bit younger.

    You can’t judge the society of 60 or even 30 years ago by the standards of today. 40 years ago it was illegal for african americans to cross a designated line in the city of Austin for more than a few hours at a time, and then only if they were servants. There was an actual legally designated ghetto (in the Warsaw sense) for blacks in Austin called the Blacklands.

    Rather than damning people of another era for not suddenly overcoming the entire momentum of history and demanding instant equality for everyone, you might give them some credit for the progress which they did make and perhaps acknowledge that in context hiring black servants and treating them decently was a step forward.

    Dave

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    I think I need to take up for Dave here.

    Looking at how his family insisted on Irish or Scandanavian nannies and he himself was looked after by a Palestinian houseboy, I would venture to guess that Dave is NOT being racist at all in his post about preferring a black nanny.

    In fact, I strongly suspect that if you’ll check those families who do have nannies here and overseas, most families have some kind of racial preference for who the nanny might be. Sometimes it’s cultural, sometimes it’s because of the language, and sometimes it’s because the parents want a broader cultural experience for their children.

    And it doesn’t stop at nannies – as for myself, if I see a BBQ shack down South, I normally don’t trust it unless the cook is black – and I’m quite white. And is it racist to say that it often seems like many whites don’t have rhythm (like me), and that blacks do seem to have a talent for singing and rhythm that is generally greater than that found in other races as a whole?

    I would submit to you, Zedd, that racism is, has been, and always will be found as long as there are different races of humanity. Not only that, but IMO one can consider one’s own preferences (like my own preferences for cooking good BBQ) without being malicious in any way towards those of other races.

    After all, many – perhaps most – people have preferences of the race of their potential mates. One certainly knows what kind of people to whom one is sexually attracted. If Joe is more sexually attracted to black girls than white girls, or Asian girls more than Hispanic girls, does that make him racist? Of course not.

    Personal preference, therefore, is NOT the same thing as prejudice, so long as it does not unfairly harm or otherwise disenfranchise those who do not meet one’s personal preferences – BUT THE CAVEAT IS that one’s personal preferences are to play no part outside one’s home – for when found in the workplace or in public, those preferences certainly do become racism.

    So IMO Dave is NOT being racist at all, but being completely truthful and thoughtfully so.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Ah, BBQ, my favorite topic. The fact is that there are different styles of barbeque, both regional and ethnic. Around here we get czech/german style barbeque, Mexican style and black style. I’m with Glenn in preferring black-style barbeque in most circumstances. My experience has been that the quality is more consistent.

    The point is that people are different, and some of those differences run with race or more specifically with the cultural characteristics which come with race and are passed down from generation to generation. It’s not a bad thing and it’s probably inevitable anyway.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Dave,

    The County Line On Wurzbach Rd. (IH-10) in San Antonio and Tom’s Ribs on Nacogdoches = heaven.

    I miss that Texas BBQ; it’s not the same here…

    But on the other hand, you can’t get a good lechón asado or palomilla or ropa vieja in San Antonio, either.

  • STM

    Thanks Zedd, we love you too! I’ve always thought I had a shocker of a melon, but there you go :)

    No accounting for taste, but I did tell you I looked like Hazell. They purposely had me looking grumpy in the pic, as the column was originally to be a GOM – Grumpy Old Man.

    That’s what I am … they just called it something else.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The silver surfer has made his views on this very plain here.

    Stan,

    I left a small memento at your site. Nothing hateful or extreme, mind you, but a bit more specific. I can’t see how you surf at all. With a mug like yours, I’d imagine the wave splitting to get out of your way.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    s it racist to say that it often seems like many whites don’t have rhythm (like me), and that blacks do seem to have a talent for singing and rhythm that is generally greater than that found in other races as a whole?

    LOL,

    You’ve never seen native Israelis dance here, Glenn. And I’m not talking about something stupid like the hora and other “folk” dances copied from the Slavs, either, the stuff that the Hassidim do.

    There is no moderating white Christian culture here to filter (as in distort) the American black culture that is imitated on the dance floor. So Israelis watch American blacks and copy exactly.

  • STM

    Lol. Thanks Ruve. I’m out of the office now without access to that function as I have to put all posted comments up myself. I will post it tomorrow. Depending on what you’ve said, I may have to be careful … we have very specific anti-vilification laws administered by community tribunals in various states that appear to go directly against High Court federal rulings on both the actual meaning and the spirit of free speech.

    The problem is that if it can be seen in one state where it’s OK to make such statements, and seen in another where it’s not based on the past record of such tribunals, I may have to edit slightly. I usually put in an explanation, however, and will be guided by someone here who generally lets most of them go through.

    Bear in mind that much of this protects your mob from vilification too, which is partlyb how it came about, of course.

    The only ones who are exempt are the Poms, who recently complained that use of the term Pom was vilification (British People Against Racial Vilification). The courts have ruled that it is perfectly OK, depending on the context.

    For instance, to call someone a “Pommy bastard” in Australia isn’t neccessarily vilification. It all depends on how it’s delivered, as bastard is a term used to describe Australians too. When my son played rugby, he was a halfback and an English touring team actually asked him to say it louder as they hadn’t heard it much on tour, and kept giggling every time. So that’s it … the law makes it official: It’s against the law in Australia NOT to rev up Pommies.

    I will get to it in the morning old boy and see how we go. Cheers mate.

    Cheers mate.

  • Mark Eden

    Glen – …BUT THE CAVEAT IS that one’s personal preferences are to play no part outside one’s home – for when found in the workplace or in public, those preferences certainly do become racism.

    The separation is not so simple. When one employs a nanny or a maid his home is the workplace. Racism runs deep in our ‘family’.

    Mark

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    So, based on the last I believe that between them two of our more left-leaning commenters have just admitted that it’s racist to be preferential in hiring african americans in the home or in any other workplace. Bravo!

    Dave

  • Clavos

    I guess I’ll have to fire the half dozen Black guys who work for me maintaining my clients’ boats, I certainly don’t want to be considered racist. The three white guys will get to keep their jobs, but obviously will have to work a lot harder to get the job done.

  • Mark Eden

    I fear that Dave ‘misses’ the point. As Zedd has argued convincingly elsewhere, racism is systemic and is not so much based on personal choice.

    Bottom line – hire who you want to.

    Mark

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    “Dorothy Bolden, who was a maid in Georgia during the 1880s told an interviewer: ‘White folks didn’t have no feelin’ for you. They pretended they did. They had nannies to give their child comfort. That was my name: ‘Nanny.’ They would teach their children they was better than you. You was givin’ them all that love and you’d hear them say, ‘You’re not supposed to love Nanny, Nanny’s a ‘nigger.’ And they could say it so nasty. Til it would cut your heart out almost and you couldn’t say a mumblin’ word.'” (Quoted from: The N Word Jabari Asim, p.96)

    Dave says: …you might give them some credit for the progress which they did make and perhaps acknowledge that in context hiring black servants and treating them decently was a step forward.

    The word (and the sentiment it reflected) was accepted in 1880. I suppose we should give credit and not damn the people of, say, 1970s Georgia. Who were still wont to call their house cleaners and nannies “niggers.” My husband’s sister moved to the Atlanta area of Georgia in the early 70s. “Well you do have a ‘nigger’ don’t you?” Ah, those lovely, delicate, white, socially-conscious, southern ladies–we should give them credit. Black nannies says nothing about waning racism. Some racists are pleased to have someone they can look down on around the home.

    Cheers to your one grandmother Dave. But it says nothing about racism that every single solitary human being in the whole country wasn’t/isn’t racist–or blatantly so.

  • Baronius

    I’ve got a bad feeling about the next four years. The hypersensitivity about race is going to get worse. If you think the racists were racist, wait till you see the anti-racists.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Cindy, I’m not sure one anecdotal comment from 20 years after the Civil War applies to the people I was discussing from the 1950s and 1960s. Obviously the situation had changed enormously in the 2 or 3 generations which passed between the era you reference and what I’m talking about.

    Hell, they had black nannies during slavery. Perhaps you’d like to set them up as exactly equivalent to black women working in a daycare center in 2008? Don’t be ridiculous.

    Dave

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    So, based on the last I believe that between them two of our more left-leaning commenters have just admitted that it’s racist to be preferential in hiring african americans in the home or in any other workplace. Bravo!

    No, I admitted no such thing. If you’ll remember, Dave, I DEFENDED your viewpoint…and I think ‘thanks’ would have been more apropos than veiled scorn. Of course, I defended you not because I like you or want to ‘butter you up’, but because that’s what I believe.

    For those who think my viewpoint is racist, my household currently consists of two Filipinos, one half-Filipino/half-white, one black, one Thai…and me. For five years (up to three years ago) this also included a full-blood Native American. Anyone who wonders about the lack of Hispanic representation should familiarize themselves with the Hispanic influence upon Filipino culture and language. My niece was president of the Spanish National Honor Society.

    For the nurses and caregivers who work within my household, this includes two blacks, two whites, and two Filipinos.

    I was raised a few miles from a one-time family friend who was the most powerful racist in America for a generation. I’ve attended an all-white school, and then the very next year attended one that was more than 96% black (the year when ‘Roots’ came out).

    I think I can safely speak with authority when it comes to race…and very, very few people can TRULY say they have no racial preferences for ANY situation, personal, familial, or professional. IMO almost anyone who makes such a naive claim either has never had to make such a decision or is physically blind…or is a liar.

    Everyone has personal preferences, and I say such preferences are NOT wrong, so long as it does not concern the workplace or the world outside of one’s home.

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    You don’t know. Ask questions and you will learn.

    You are abysmally ignorant about this topic. It’s so bad that it’s not worth a reply. You are so in a fog and its much too embarrassing to try and get you caught up. Much like trying to explain a basic idea to a teen who is adamant about some dumb notion that is based on their short lifespan, one tends to ignore feeling marginally annoyed about having to converse with the idiot.

    My grandmother was a nannie. I know multitudes of nannies. Many of whom have gone on. I really know them, not in a “smile or you wont get paid” sort of way. You are ignorant and sadly naive for a man your age. I keep telling you that you don’t know your world. And it’s quite clear that you don’t want to know it. Have at it. Our reality is immense and you are not equipped to deal with it. A tantrum wouldn’t help you cope with it. So yes do live your shallow existence and move on, when the time comes, to the beyond none the wiser. Do continue to spout your childish opinions about, regarding matters of which you have no ability to understand- because you’ve never asked anyone. Like a teen, you believe you know because you should know. Only that’s not enough.

    Clavos,

    You are off topic. Who said anything about you firing anyone? No one cares.

  • Zedd

    Guys,

    Lets forgive Hitler because he is from another era. Really dumb right?

    Evil is evil. Compassion and humanity has always been the same. Saying “I gave in to the evil because it was the fad of the day” isn’t good enough. IT IS EVIL.

    I would have loved to have had a one on one with Dave’s grandmother’s nannie; the one whose kids got sent to college. Different worlds folks.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Zedd, assuming things about other people, their experiences and their beliefs just makes you look foolish. Almost as foolish as suggesting that whether we forgive people from another era or not is meaningful in any way. You can’t punish Hitler. He’s dead. You can’t make up for the racial injustices of other eras. They are over and gone and that’s the end of it.

    You’re too enmired in the assumptions of race and ideology and incapable of looking at these issues in a realistic way. So when challenged you get defensive and throw out insults and get angry at those who challenge your assumptions and demonstrate that you have no real credibility.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Glenn,

    Not sure what your point is. You seem to be all over the place. Did you just want to say something about race?

    Dave,

    Your mean grandma was odd. Blacks have been nannies since they arrived on these shores. Don’t talk about history… “professor”. Just shush. Black women have been wet nurses let alone nannies. Freed women, slave women…. Next.

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    You are a child. Let it go.

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    I’m not sure one anecdotal comment from 20 years after the Civil War applies to the people I was discussing from the 1950s and 1960s. Obviously the situation had changed enormously in the 2 or 3 generations which passed between the era you reference and what I’m talking about.

    Had you noticed I went to the trouble of noting the the typical 1970s attitude in the Atlanta area? The 1880 quote was meant to describe the personal anguish of an experience. The later quote was meant to date the same thinking that caused that anguished experience through the 1970s.

  • Clavos

    You are off topic.

    And?

    Who said anything about you firing anyone?

    I did.

    No one cares.

    How many people did you poll?

  • Tom deSabla

    “I know the names, birth and death dates and locations of every one of my ancestors, direct and indirect, back to the early 1500s.”

    Maybe you do Clavos, but if instead you were, shall we say, “willfully misrepresenting the truth,” it sure wouldn’t be the first time. You’ll forgive me if I don’t risk too much betting on the accuracy of your comments eh?

    Nalle, you and your merry band of sycophants are just as irrelevant as ever, and just as wrong.

    How about that financial crisis that you all said didn’t exist?

    And the recession that you said didn’t exist?

    How about that GM situation? Remember you all said that GM was fine, and its overseas operations would see it through any imagined difficulties?

    Ha ha ha

    and ole Clavy used non-inflation-adjusted data to claim that U.S. exports were booming?

    Ha ha ha.

    And when caught, he wouldn’t admit it hadn’t been adjusted for inflation?

    AN “EXPORT FACT SHEET”?

    SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE EXPORTS LOOK BIG?

    Please, I’m laughing my rear off here!

    Remember how you all said that Ron Paul was an economic ignoramus who didn’t know what he was talking about?

    Yeah, how’s that insult looking now?

    Yeah, how are Paul and his lead economic advisor Peter Schiff looking now?

    You know Schiff don’t you? The guy who wiped the floor with Art Laffer?

    Ha ha ha.

    Oh, and before I forget, remember how you said that central banking was fine, and how it was really much more “libertarian” than people realized?

    Still happy with your “libertarian” people up at the Fed, Dave?

    Ha ha ha.

    You’re all killing me.

    ***

    Hey Pablo!

  • Tom deSabla

    By the way, I don’t know why anyone would think Dave Nalle is a terrorism expert, especially given his obvious demonstrated lack of expertise on economic or political matters.

    So if I were looking for professional analysis of the Mumbai attacks, I certainly wouldn’t turn to Dave Nalle.

    I just dropped by to see if anything had changed here at BC. It obviously hasn’t. Same idiots, different day.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Told ya Stan,

    What I wrote was not extreme at all. I read that long statement from your paper about villification and all that rot, and actually it didn’t affect what I wrote.

    I know how to watch me pees ‘n’ queues, yer know. It’s what yer do on line in the office for national insurance….

  • STM

    Yeah thanks, Ruve … ya did good mate.

    It’s a real issue for us at the moment, although I’m not sure when you weigh it all up that it’s all that bad.

    But the High Court continually rules on the side of free speech (taking it to be implied under the constitution, where it wasn’t written in because it was taken to have always existed under the British laws we inherited), and then these commissions and tribunals mainly administered by the states go the other way.

    You can say things, for instance just about anything about lawless jihadists you like, but you have to careful about inciting to violence/hatred – and generalising I find is always dangerous because some of the comments that come in are pretty over the top.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    I see Tom the Paulbot is back, and just as busy spinning and smearing as ever.

    And the recession that you said didn’t exist?

    Technically we still haven’t met the traditional definition of a recession, but that doesn”t mean we don’t have economic problems. You’re still hampered by simplistic thinking.

    How about that GM situation? Remember you all said that GM was fine, and its overseas operations would see it through any imagined difficulties?

    I actually said Ford, not GM. And if you bothered to do any research you’d see that Ford’s international operations are doing relatively well. If they decide to go bankrupt in the US their overseas operations will carry on unhampered. It’s all part of the scam which this bailout represents.

    As for the Fed, as I’ve said before – but I guess it’s too complex for your one-dimensional worldview – the problem is no the basic concept of the fed, but how it has been managed. Anything can be mismanaged. It doesn’t mean that it’s conceptually flawed.

    But go on believing that all our problems come from shadowy international conspiracies if that’s what keeps you from facing up to the real problems and their real causes. Live in denial in your Alex Jones fantasy world and leave the rest of us to discuss things on the basis of reality.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan,

    the High Court continually rules on the side of free speech (taking it to be implied under the constitution, where it wasn’t written in because it was taken to have always existed under the British laws we inherited), and then these commissions and tribunals mainly administered by the states go the other way.

    Not to change th topic any, but maybe a written amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech in the federal constitution is what you guys down there need. I know that sticks in your craw, but pencil-pushing bureaucrats just don’t think like judges and lawyers do. That is the precise problem you describe, mate. For a pencil-pusher, if it ain’t written in the rule-book, it ain’t there.

  • Zedd

    Clav,

    What is wrong with you hijo I mean pops? I hate to admit it but you are funny (sometimes).

  • STM

    I agree Ruvy. They were going to put it up as an amendment to the constitution in 1942. They put a whole lot of other stuff up but not that, once again believing that the right to free speech already existed under law and therefore wasn’t needed.

    Generally, the high court’s rulings have been the final word but we do need a facsimile of the 1st amendment. Nevertheless, I can only think of one case – in Victoria – where people have got into trouble for vilification.

    What they said was fairly innocuous too, even if it was a gross generalisation, so it’s one too many.

    We have a campaign going here at the moment to stop governments and bureaucracies trying to snow the media by withholding facts (by various means).

  • Marcia Neil

    One article listed with the Topix.net website had a comment provided by one of the hotel users, who reported that a sauna had caught fire. References to Muslims can thereby be asertained to be satirical, indicating that either someone did not stoop to make the required safety inspections, or did stoop to dislodge heating components that burned the sauna and other places in the hotel, too. How similar is this hotel fire to other apartment/hotel fires in Paris, France, during past years and do cigarette-smookers figure at all in the destructive scenarios?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Okaaay, Marcia… not really getting the big picture, are you?

    Fixating on how the fire started in this situation is a bit like running for cover during the London Blitz and worrying about which particular room of your house the 500lb bomb just landed on.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Doc,

    Most respectfully, I think you missed the point. We are unkind to fires, and speak ill of those which cause trivial damage to humanity. They are not like us, and we are grossly prejudiced against them. I don’t have the exact figures, but understand that the resources devoted to fighting innocent forest fires in California this year alone could have made a very significant dent in solving serious problems — the slaughter of innocent cows, pigs and chickens for meat, the sawing off of the heads of helpless broccoli plants; cultivation of the worst carcinogen known to man, tobacco*; the list is endless.

    Fires are not inherently bad, and we depend upon them for all sorts of comforts. On the other hand, if innocent fires were the culprit in India, well then we should provide funding to reeducate them.

    Dan(Miller)

    *puffs enthusiastically on his pipe

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I have to speak up in defense of Tobacco. It is far from the worst carcinogen known to man and it’s getting an unfair rap solely because it is more popular to smoke than things like plywood and fiberglass, both of which would be far more harmful if they were smoked in numbers comparable to cigarettes. You’re just jealous.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Having lived with someone who availed themselves of both substances in truly alarming quantities, give me a heavy smoker over an alcoholic any day.

  • Cindy D

    Technically we still haven’t met the traditional definition of a recession, but that doesn”t mean we don’t have economic problems. You’re still hampered by simplistic thinking.

    Dave, watching the curtains aflame, waits until all the exits are blocked before noticing the house is on fire.

    Greenspan announced we are in a recession April 2008. Perhaps Dave has a better definition of recession?

  • Zedd

    I think there is one way that we can impact terrorists as individuals.

    We know that these guys are not really in the business of holding hostages for demands. They want attention and they mean to die before the day is out. If there is a terrorist attack, it would be better, knowing that if you do nothing you will most likely die (because killing you is the goal), to attack, lash out and insure that at least a portion of you live. Terrorist attacks have been carried out by relatively few people. If it could be understood by all, internationally that the proper protocol when dealing with a terrorist is to jump him, wup him, and then keep him alive so that he wont be martyred.

    Not the best answer but it’s important to take away the appeal and bullying away from these guys. Kick their butts and humiliate them. – Just a thought. Off course Zulus think a good xxs wuppin is a cure for all illnesses.

  • Zedd

    Except tobacco stinks.

    I have to stand in support of all of the powerful ignoramuses of the world. While they cause exponential mounds of destruction all over the globe generation after generation, bless them, they don’t know. I think everyone wants to be an ignoramus because they are adorable deep deep down and we all want to be adorable.

    Oh I almost forgot a plural for of the word ignoramus could also be spelled i g n o r a m i – a gift for our very own Clav lest he goes climbing into the attic again for his Special Important Big Rare Book of the Wanna be Aristocracy. Don’t tell him we can all google if we want

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The attackers achieved their main goal — ratcheting up the tension enormously between India and Pakistan.

    Why do governments so often play into the hands of terrorists, by doing exactly what the terrorists want them to?

    It seems farfetched that anyone in India’s government actually believes Pakistan’s government backed the attacks. Yet they’re fully willing to risk a war over it. [The timing, right before an election, plays into the hands of nationalist Hindu parties as well as the formulaic jingoism of the current government.]

    Similarly, bin Laden wanted to goad us into attacking Afghanistan in 2001. He may not have gotten exactly the consequences he wanted, but we’re still there, and we’re not winning, and our presence continues to provide a very effective recruiting poster for new young jihadists.

    I hope the Obama foreign policy team will bring more to the table than answering terrorism with military action, the simple-minded Bush approach that has caused more problems than it has solved. But I will believe it when I see it.

  • lLumpy

    I spell naive H A N D Y G U Y. I find it hard to imagine that there could have nit been some pakistani government involvement in or awareness of the attack. but then I don’t live in the fact free zone called obamaland.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    My point, Lumpy, was that al Qaeda plays us like a violin. Our responses are all too predictable.

    Listen in fact to yourself, singing the tune that they composed.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Except tobacco stinks.

    Agreed, Zedd, but then so does booze breath…

    Seriously, though, as much as I despise the habit of smoking and the smell of cigarettes (although I do enjoy that of cigars and pipe tobacco), alcohol abuse is far worse.

    Smokers may be sad tragic bastards, but at least cigarette smoking doesn’t produce personality alterations and destructive behavior.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Greenspan announced we are in a recession April 2008. Perhaps Dave has a better definition of recession?

    Zedd, there is and has until now only been one accepted definition of a recession – two quarters of negative growth in a row. In declaring this situation to be a recession that long-standing definition had to be set aside and new criteria – which I have yet to see defined – used instead.

    The reason Greenspan said it in April and the official announcement didn’t come until this week is that no one really knows what the new definition of a recession is.

    And I’m not saying we’re not in a recession. But I will say that the economy is complex enough that it often defines overly generalized concepts like recession.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Wow,

    Zedd, we have to stop dressing alike!

  • STM

    Dave writes: “Smokers may be sad tragic bastards, but at least cigarette smoking doesn’t produce personality alterations and destructive behavior.”

    Hit the nail on the head Dave, except you left the U out of behaviour :)

    He’s right though, and I’m a sad, tragic bastard who’s struggled on and off for years with smoking.

    But I don’t drink and I hate the smell of booze (especially stale booze). Yet I never tell people they stink of piss, nor histrionically break into fake coughing fits when I’m 2 metres UPWIND of a stinker drinker.

  • STM

    Zedd: “Of course Zulus think a good xxs wuppin is a cure for all illnesses”.

    The Poms will attest to that. The Zulus gave ‘em their very own version of Custer’s last stand.

  • STM

    Actually, Doc said that. Sorry Doc … and how come your not using the Queen’s English, old boy.

    You’ve been over there in that central valley WAAAAAAY too long, and as someone else once famously said on this site, “I see no reason why you should stay”.

    He was right.

    Get back to the civilised world, mate.

    London, Sydney, Auckland, Toronto … one of those joints.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    You’ll get no argument from me. Whew alcohol can be a bugger bear. I have encountered some intense experiences with very close and dear people in my life. I find it strange that most people are touched by an alcoholic but no one talks about it that much. Having an alcoholic in ones life can be one of the most surreal experiences. The displaced guilt, the vacuous attempts to help, the patching up, the embarrassment, the WORK to fix the endless destruction, the jumbled up lies and trying too make sense of what is real, it’s all just much to much for the psyche. No one really talks about it yet this “thing” plays a huge role in a lot of our lives and has since the beginning of time. I’ve learned that there are very few weird things that happen out of the blue. When someone is off, I don’t waist time trying to figure things out because most of the time it’s substance abuse (when mental illness is not suspect). What I find REALLY annoying is how shrinks will tell these people that they drink because of a chemical imbalance, end up pushing drugs on to them and causing them to be drug addicts and crazier. I personally think the entire psychiatric industry need STRONG regulation. They are like witch doctors of centuries past. They think they know everything. They realize that the public is not informed about their field so they take on this guru like stance, and most of the time it is quackery. But that’s a rant for another day.

  • Zedd

    Hi Cindy,

    Just wanted to shout out to my twin.

  • pablo

    146 tom

    HEY TOM glad to see ya back buddy. :)

  • Cindy D

    Hiya there Zedd :-)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Now that this comment thread has degenerated to “twins” calling each other out, we can safely say that Americans are not paying attention. The Christmas carols have their brains turned to mincemeat pie, and they couldn’t give two shakes of a lamb’s tail.

    Nobody else (from the States) has written a single peep except to whine that the Moslems in Dearborn were not having prayer vigils.

    Darn!

    “White” people didn’t die in Mumbai, except for a few tourists and a few Jews. Nobody gives a damn about Jews dying and tourists? Americans certainly don’t give a damn about Indians dying. And the American vanilla white media doesn’t give a damn either.

    So, it’s as if the whole thing didn’t happen.

    You don’t need biblical prophecies of doom to figure out the fate of a bunch of contented cattle and sheep….

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    And don’t forget that the dead tourists were part of some sort of weird millenial kool-aid drinking cult too.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Hell, “tourists” who would go to a place like Mumbai in their travels, instead of real tourist attractions like Disney World and Rock City, had it coming anyway.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Americans certainly don’t give a damn about Indians dying. And the American vanilla white media doesn’t give a damn either.

    So, it’s as if the whole thing didn’t happen.”

    mhmm… so that’s why this thing dominated the news for several days… yeah, because it didn’t happen. it was still front page news as of yesterday around here.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    All tourists (and terrorists) should be forced to go to Branson. That’ll cure them.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    It was front page mews because white tourists (and by the way some of the media looked at it, white Jews) got killed in cold blood. These terrorists had the eternal gall to target white people, and the white dhimminated media was in a snit about it.

    Professional “worriers”, like Strategic Forecasting (stratfor.com) and their ilk, worry about the strategic and geo-political issues all the time and charge a handsome sum for you to find out just what they’ve uncovered. But the mass media only acts when it smells the blood of white people.

    That is a bitter fact that I’ve seen demonstrated time and time again.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    front page mews

    Is that a news service for kittens?

    Dave

  • zingzing

    bullshit, ruvy. i read the front page news and while it did mention the tourists in the articles, it was more about body counts. it was front page news because it had blood, period. if dead americans added spice, it’s the “dead” part that the media tasted first.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    No, zing;

    There was plenty of blood in the Sudan, and there still is. But the Sudanese killed are largely blacks – it doesn’t matter in the white man’s front page “mews”.

    The white kittens (and the white cheesecake) matter.

    Hey! Where is the Zulu warrior princess to cover my back when I say something she could agree with?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You’ve been over there in that central valley WAAAAAAY too long, and as someone else once famously said on this site, “I see no reason why you should stay”.

    I’m working on it, Stan. We just need to get around to doing some redecorating on our place so that we can rent it out to students (we live across the street from the university) and we’ll be on our way.

    Question is, where? The wife’s profession is one that’s in demand everywhere and I’m happy doing anything or nothing, so we’ll have no trouble making a living wherever we go.

    San Diego or Portland are the top two choices at the moment, because we have plenty of family and/or friends in both, but Sydney is definitely an option, perhaps further down the line though. Emigrating was enough of a headache the first time with just me doing it, so I’m not anxious to put both myself and my wife through it again…

    Agree with you about the smell of booze. Funny how something so wonderful can stink so awful, especially recycled on someone’s breath…

    As for the spelling: I tend to adjust it depending on my audience. Since most folks here are Seppos, I spell accordingly. If I’m talking mainly to you, Colin, Chris or even Mark ‘One Way Ticket’ Manning ;-) , I’ll probably use the correct spellings.

    Ahem. You Aussies do spell ‘Labour’ wrong, though!

  • zingzing

    ruvy–sudan? i’ve never heard of this place? is there something going on there? if there is, it’s funny i’ve never heard of it. you’d think stuff like that would be in the news.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, I tend to be of the opinion that in order to be a terrorist, especially if you plan to pull this kind of stunt, you have to be among the biggest attention-seeking egomaniacal assholes on the planet.

    Without wishing to dishonor the memory of Rabbi and Rebbitzin Holtzberg and the hundreds of others who died, I therefore think terrorists are worthy of as little attention as possible.

    I can’t speak for others, but that is my explanation for saying little on the subject.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    I therefore think terrorists are worthy of as little attention as possible.

    Think carefully. There is a basic law of survival – do not turn your back on your enemy until somebody else has him covered for you.

    This is primarily a discussion forum. It is possible, having lived in Britain, that you were affected by terrorism. And a coping mechanism is not to allow terrorists to affect your life. That makes sense, and it was the copping mechanism we followed when terror attacks were more common. Bu ignoring them in silence on a discussion forum?

    You have no thoughts on how to deal with the bastards? This is not a matter of honoring the late rabbi or rebbetzin – ot the many Mumbaikars who died innocently in this terror, This is a matter of saving your own ass (or arse).

  • pablo

    Nalle #60

    “Yep, you can tell we made a hero of Ollie North by the fact that we sent him to jail.”

    Huh? Are we re-writing history now Nalle? Fact is that Ollie (cocaine dealer) North never spent a day in jail in his life, and after convicted of a felony his case was overturned on appeal. Get your facts straight Nalle, or if your gonna lie, be a little more slick about it, as it is you only do yourself dis-credit as usual.

  • pablo

    Dave re 60

    “I’m also surpsised at all the opportunities terrorists have not taken advantage of here in the US. I can see points of vulnerability every day. Got to wonder what’s stopping them.”

    Keep wondering buddy, I call it false flag terrorism brought to us via your intelligenCIA buddies, your not fooling anyone but those that are too blind to see. Nice try though Davey. :)