Home / Mitt Romney Makes a Better Christian Than Mike Huckabee

Mitt Romney Makes a Better Christian Than Mike Huckabee

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on TwitterShare on Facebook0Share on Google+0Pin on Pinterest0Share on Tumblr0Share on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

Rev. Mike Huckabee is supposed to be the most adamant, pure Christian candidate in the race for President. But I think Huckabee seems to be the least truly Christian in the Republican field. I might cite several grounds for that, but mostly I'm saying this because of the sleazy and underhanded way he's demagogically using his religion specifically against Mitt Romney.

For starters, though, it's absolutely asinine the way that Huckabee goes putting God on his side in the Republican primary election. He's repeatedly compared himself and his campaign to that guy that fed multitudes with just a couple of loaves and fishes. That shows a real lack of Christian humility, to put it mildly. Indeed, that he's so willing to vainly invoke his Lord and Savior in his own crass little political campaign is grounds for me to begin doubting the sincerity of his beliefs right there.

Many people have likened Huckabee to the other guy from Hope, describing Huckabee as being like Clinton-but without the wandering eye. Well, Bill Clinton getting laid was not mostly what I would object to about him. It's that demagogue Elmer Gantry or perhaps Lonesome Rhodes populist manipulation and lack of character or principles that characterize both Clinton and Huckabee. Add in his infamous lack of belief in evolution, and Huckabee looks about as self-serving as that textbook religious populist American demagogue William Jennings Bryan.

But most of all, I positively dislike Huckabee for his absolutely knowing and purposeful manipulation of his Christian faith to use as a weapon against even a fellow Christian, purely for his own political gain. In short, Mike Huckabee has repeatedly and carefully, with unmistakably malice aforethought, borne false witness against Mormons and purposefully stoked anti-Mormon bigotry in order to convince the knuckle-dragging type of Christians to support him over Mitt Romney.

Slick Huck is a nasty hick with a distinctly Bill Clinton shade of underhanded politics of personal destruction. He bills himself in early tv ads as a "Christian leader," in implicit contrast to the front runner who is not. Oh no, I didn't mean it THAT way, responds the clever cleric. It's just a reference to his own background as a minister.

Nor will he directly deny that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are Christians, as it's just not his proper role as a candidate to take a position on such an issue. In other words, the PC folk won't let me say it, but you know – wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more True Brother Christians.

But Huckabee really proved himself exponentially too clever and sleazy with the instantly infamous New York Times comment about Mormons. "Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" This guy is one of the slickest tongued people in politics. Then he just accidentally and innocently drops this bit of poisonous speculation casually into a conversation with a reporter from the New York Times.

Running a presidential slate for Ball State student government a quarter century ago, our campaign had our manager stand up in debate to ask a question based on a forgotten little scandal from the year before. "Do you promise not to steal any more campaign buttons?" This of course necessitated the paper explaining the story, and it made us the goats. The bad manager wrote the most self-consciously righteous statement for our candidate to make in denouncing him that he could conjure-and of course had to churn the story one more time through his own theatrical and profusely humiliated apology at the next candidate forum.

Likewise of course for Mike Huckabee with the Jesus and Satan are Mormon brothers – and also of course for Hillary with Shaheen and the Obama drugs nonsense. Huckabee apologized. "It was never my intention to denigrate his faith. I raised it not to create a story. I thought we were having a simple, casual conversation." Yeah, he was just having a casual conversation with a reporter from the New York Times. Never crossed his mind that he might be planting a little anti-Mormon bomb. Really? Invoking my own preferred prophet, I'd suggest that if you're testing God, and lying to his face, you're going to catch hell.

Unmistakably, Mike Huckabee has consciously said things to appeal to the most base angels of his constituents' nature to turn them in hatred even against a brother who also proclaims Jesus Christ as his savior – all in pursuit of votes for himself. What do you think Jesus might think of that? Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rev Huckabee's actions strongly suggest that he values his own self-interest even at the direct expense of abandoning the most basic core Christian teaching of loving thy neighbor.

Meanwhile, Mitt Romney seems exceptionally clean for a major presidential candidate. Some might accuse him of flip-flopping on some issues-though seemingly really far less so than Gov. Huckabee, particularly on taxes and immigration. But beyond that, you'd be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life. He might fail some people's anti-religious litmus tests, but he surely looks like he's tried very hard to stick to the straight and narrow at all times.

Most particularly, I've never seen him being hateful or malicious or discriminatory. I would find it highly unlikely that he would foment hatred against another man for personal gain, much less fomenting hatred against whole groups as Huckabee does.

You could argue over which candidate's theological views are closest to your own. As a non-believer, I don't particularly have a dog in that fight. Hopefully that might make me something of an honest broker here. In any case, looking past theology, Mitt Romney sure looks like he's doing a lot better job in life of following the example of Jesus Christ of Nazareth than what I'm seeing from Rev. Huckabee.

If I were picking a candidate based on which one was the better Christian, it'd definitely be Mitt Romney hands down over that malicious and underhanded Mike Huckabee.

Powered by

About Gadfly

  • Paul

    Great article! Finally someone who sees it as it really is!!

  • Unbelievable! Al, are you on the Romney payroll? Seriously. Either that or you are living in a reverse universe!

  • Colin – No, I’m not on the Romney payroll. I’m probably not going to vote for him. But please elucidate as to how I’m living in a “reverse universe.”

  • sha

    this flip flopping flake will say anything to get voted in. go to http://www.massresistance.org
    to get the real scoop on romney. he knows that he has gone to far to the right to ever be respected by the far left that was his base during his term as governer in mass state. he is even more liberal and corrupt than hillary. they are both flip flopping flakes together. the only clear conservative here is huckabee. he has been consistant with his stance and not a flip flopping fluke like mitt. i would never vote for him, not becuase he is a morman but b/c he is a flip flop that can not be trusted. the fact that he continues to attack huckabee, will only drive me closer to him. instead of him trying to say why huckabee should not be winning, he should stop trying to compare himself to him and start telling people why anyone should vote to him. the fact of the matter is that he is going to lose. and in new hampshire, he is going to loose to mccain. then he can finally go home and let the illegal aliens keep working on his home…

  • Lee Richards

    You nailed it! And I’m no Romney fan, either.

  • Patrick

    I just told my wife last night that something is wrong about Huckabee and you hit the nail right on the head. His pandering to the evangelical right, while acting innocent about his mormon history and knowledge gives it away. Romney is a politician, but his approach to the faith and testimony of others demonstrates the tolerance I expect from a potential President of the United States.

  • Sha- You’re displaying exactly the kind of hatefulness and bigoted lack of concern for facts that I’m accusing your guy Huckabee of. That kind of hatefulness does not turn anybody on, nor does the foolish dishonesty of saying that Romney is somehow to the left of Hillary. That’s just silly.

    I know that Romney is the candidate on the trail getting most frequently and vehemently accused of “flip flopping,” but he seems to be if anything less inconsistent than many of the other candidates – most especially your guy Huckabee on immigration and taxes.

    That a Huckabee supporter would call Romney a flake is dumbfounding. Huckabee’s the half-assed candidate with no staff or organization, running a national campaign out of his back pocket and just making up any kind of silly thing to say that sounds advantageous at the moment. Flakiest of all, Huckabee’s the one who wasn’t keeping up with the news even to the bare minimal extent of knowing that there was a big NIE report on Iran a few days ago. This guy would be our next commander in chief?

    Lee- thanks for your kind words.

  • Jason

    Well if Romney is a flip flopper, good for him, why can’t politicians change their minds or their positions on things. Doesn’t everyone, I mean I have changed my mind from Huckabee to someone else. I was truly interested in him and an avid supporter but his underhanded way of using religious overtones to say he is greater than thou and the “true” christian, that scares me, what happens when he talks to the muslim nations, “you guys aint christian enough for my country”. This guy just scares me now. And this article is right on. Thanks for right up.

  • Clavos

    Good article.

    I confess I had not been paying much attention to Huckabee; I can’t give credence to anyone who professes to believe in ID, so had dismissed him.

    The sneakiness and underhandedness you describe are particularly off-putting.

    Not what I would like to see in a President.

  • Mike

    I have been a Romney supporter for some time but have lately been a little concerned with some of the decisions he has made running his campaign…that said. You nailed Huckabee right on the head. Anyone, that is naive enough to think that his comment to the New York times was anything but pure tactics is in true denial. I spent too much time in Kentucky around Baptist minister’s college to believe his question wasn’t malicious. And if he truly did think it was a private conversation with a reporter…then you should be even more worried about his ability to be President. He is sneaky and Baptists should distance themselves from his embarrassing representation of their religion.

  • kent helberg

    You are a sick man.

  • phhhtttt!!!!

    What a load of crap this article and most of the comments are. ok, so you have an anti Jesus bent, and anybody that dares to stick his head up and say he’s a Christian, you want to bash him back into the ground (and make yourself sound all righteous for having done so), ok fine. But at least be honest about your motives and quit trying to wrap yourself in some sort of journalistic righteousness. You didn’t like Huckabee’s comment about “dont Mormons consider Jesus and the devil brothers”? Well, if your concerned about that, maybe you should actually do some journalistic research and find out what the Mormons do believe. Did Huck waffle on the issue, well, honestly I think he did a little. He should have said “Yes, Mormonism is considered by all of orthodox Christianity to be a cult” “So there”. Why didn’t he? don’t know! Should he be the judge of whether a person truly is saved? Nope! No one can judge the heart except God. Should he be able to compare Mormonism with Christianity and say “It is not a Christian Religion”? Yes! Now is it possible to be a Mormon and be a real Christian? Sure it is. The bible is very clear about the requirements (if you don’t know what they are maybe you should actually try reading it and see what it says), however Mormon teaching on it own will not make you a Christian is in fact inconsistent with Christianity. Google “cults” and look at the ones on Mormonism. (here’s’ the first one I came upon, it will do http://biblia.com/christianity2/3b-mormons.htm ). They have documented the differences far more thoroughly that I can.

  • Bill

    All I can say is “By their Fruits you shall know them” I can see what Huckabee’s fruits are and Romney’s are. If I pick between these two I will pick Romney. I feel I can trust him, he has a life long record of being the kind of person I would trust. People need to get their heads on straight and stop being so blind by rhetoric and bigotry.

  • childetx

    Wow Al!

    I think you hit the nail on the head. To suggest that he was innocently asking the New York Times reporter about the Satan/Jesus Mormon question is absolutely ludicrous. It was downright sleazy of the Huckster to do that.

    People will see Huck in short order. And we’ll have another case study in “Howard Dean pyrotechnics” — how to rocket up and come crashing down.

  • rather agravated

    The man who wrote the article did a good job obfuscating the issue – he used a veil of faux concern, and “journalistic righteousness” to give the appearance of not only being impartial, but also tried to appear as if he knew something about Christianity. He clearly does not if he can confuse a cult for being in the Christian Spectrum. Musilms are as close to being christian as the mormons are. Both error in the exact same way regarding Christ. Granted Islam goes wrong in many other ways, and to my knowledge no mormon would ever want to blow up someone who disagrees with their philosophy/cult. Many of them are very devout, they take their faith seriously – more so than many christians these days. Never the less that is not what gets you into heaven these days.

    Should Huckabee be crucified over what he claims is a sincere question? Should Romney be excoriated for being mormon? The answer to both is a resounding No. That said i will stay home on election day if Romney is the republican representative. He may be better than hillary, but he is not someone i would be able to in good conscience vote for.

  • Don Hargrave

    Only Jesus is perfect. All Christians make mistakes and none of us are perfect- just forgiven. I am still undecided on which presidential candidate to choose. All of them are human & all of them have made mistakes. We as Christians should keep in mind that we are children of God; and in reality are salvation comes from Christ- not theology or the church. Your status as an nonbeliever is certainly your choice, but you like all of us will stand before Jesus one day. The King is coming and the “GOOD NEWS” is that it is not to late for AL to find peace with the Lord. Read Isaiah 55:6!!! This scripture is for you.
    God Bless,

  • Alec

    I don’t care about either Huckabee’s or Romney’s religious bona fides. I am voting for president, not Pastor-in-Chief. Those who find this meaningful, or require it as a litmus test, are not as far removed from the Taliban as they would like to believe. The entire notion of who might be the best Christian is stunningly irrelevant.

    What part of “no religious test” don’t some voters not understand?

    Similarly, that there is no hint of impropriety in Romney’s background does not speak much to his qualifications to be president.

    Lastly, it is not that Romney has flip-flopped on issues. It is that he cravenly panders to whatever he thinks his constituents believe in order to cast himself as a favorable candidate. I guess this works for some people, but it for me it emphasizes the degree to which he is an empty suit, a plastic doll into which deluded voters apply their own desires.

    Huckabee is not much better, but I guess is somewhat worse only to the degree to which he more deliberately tries to twist his religion into part of his identity as a political candidate.

  • Tsion Benjuda

    I love this article. The more people who attack Gov. Huckabee the higher he rises. The Word of God says that the last will be first and the first will be last. If you truly look at the history of Gov. Huckabee you will wander how in the world did he get where he is at. It defies any kind of logic.
    I am from Arkansas and 6 months ago I was not going to support Gov. Huckabee and same can be said about all of my friends but something happenend, Gov. Huckabee did not attack people and took the same high road that a past Gov. did, one Ronald Reagan. Now that Gov. Romney is pulling out all the stops and attacking Gov. Huckabee many people will see that doing this hurts not helps.
    AS a life-long conservative I felt like in the primaries I was going to have to vote for the lesser of 2 evils Guilliani or Romney but now I have someone who sticks to the truth. The bible says that as Christians that if we stand up for Christ we will be attacked and that is definately what has happenend to Gov. Huckabee and if he loses at least he didnt flop around on any of his beliefs or decisions and everyone will remember him as a man of Truth and Integrity.
    I will not vote for a Democrat or a Liberal Republican Guiliani/Romney (even though I like Guiliani for sticking with his beliefs and not flopping, he is still to liberal).
    Bottom line is if either of these two men get nominated that a majority of Christians–(The Holy Bible Christ Followers; as told about in the KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV)– The Democrat machine will tear Gov. Romney up over his everchanging positions when he tries to do it to one of theirs.
    I have lost all the respect that I have had for Gov. Romney over the last couple of weeks and am disappointed that he has made it his personal strategy to attack other people instead of stick to the issues. All this being said Gov. Huckabee better keep to his game plan and continue to stick to the issues. Even if he is wrong do not flop just admit it and go on.

  • Dear phhhtttt!!!! – No, I’m not anti-Christian nor did I bash Christianity. Your ideological sensitivities are apparently wreaking havoc on your reading comprehension. I was bashing on Huckabee not for being a Christian, but exactly for not being near enough of one.

    I know my KJV Bible pretty well, but don’t claim to know a lot about Mormon or Muslim theology. However differently they might take it in some regards though, Mormons do confess the name of Christ. In my best judgment, that would make them Christians, as also are Catholics – whom many evangelical types also wish to deny the label of Christian.

    But I can understand being skeptical of the Mormon faith. I’m pretty skeptical of all ghost stories myself. However, it’s not theological skepticism of Mormonism that turns me off on Huckabee, but the underhanded and malicious use of those feelings in a political campaign against an opponent. Again, I most particularly object to the under handededness and dishonesty of how Huckabee goes about it, like that “innocent” little comment to the NYT reporter.

    As Brother Bill reminds us above, “By their Fruits you shall know them” I’m fuzzy on some of the specific theological issues involved with Romney, but it’s plain as day to me that Huckabee is not behaving in a Christ-like manner in this campaign. The guy I read about in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would not countenance the hatefulness and malicious backbiting for personal gain that Huckabee has shown. Whereas Romney’s always been a pretty straight shooter, and he fight exceptionally clean.

    Rather Aggravated – My concern is not faux. I would really hate to see the Republicans commit Huckacide, and doom us to President Hillary. I also really un-appreciate religious demagogues of any stripe. Rev Huckabee’s is about as qualified and trustworthy to be president as Rev Jackson or Rev Robertson. He’s wicked and truly divisive in his quest for personal power.

  • Glen Beck said Friday that Huckabee would fall back down. Nice article and I definitely agree with your post.

    As of 3pm EST 12-17 — If you go to Alexa and check out the TR (traffic rating) for the official Ron Paul website — he has a TR of 7,478.
    Mike Huckabee has a TR of 52,977
    John McCain — TR 112,541
    Hillary Clinton — TR 33,338
    TR 68,443 for Mitt Romney

    According to Huckabee’s website he has collected $1,229,712 to date for his forth quarter donations.

    At this moment Dr. Paul has $18,247,850 and still coming in.

    There is no mention on McCain’s site of how much money he currently has raised.

    I have stopped listening to the MSM — they are the old media and are missing the point.

  • Baronius

    Al, it looks like you do have a dog in this fight, or at least one you’re rooting against. I mean, you’re complaining that a former minister lists it on his resume?

    I read his and his wife’s comments about loaves and fishes. It seemed like an analogy, not a claim of divine power. What I’ve seen about his religious statements seem fine (although I’m no expert on Huckabee). He made the comment about Jesus and Satan when a reporter asked him if he thought Mormonism was a religion or a cult. It was an answer to a question, not an off-the-record insinuation.

    You say that Romney is a better Christian than Huckabee. Maybe you can argue that Romney better follows “the most basic core Christian teaching of loving thy neighbor”. You could also argue that Romney fails the most basic Christian teaching that Jesus is God. Are you the best person to define what is essential to Christian teaching?

    I don’t know which of these two I would support for President. I’m in a late state, so it really doesn’t matter.

  • Al Verser

    Sorry, you are wrong. I went to high school with Mike and he is sincere and honest, what we call a stand-up guy. Are you reading the far left blog? I can see the mud and spin headed his way.. You must be getting scared.

  • Dear Tsion- What kind of alternate reality world are you living in? Romney has not been attacking Huckabee or anyone else in any kind of personal way, especially about articles of faith. You’re just imagining that. Plus, your Governor Huckabee absolutely and undeniably has been doing everything he can in every kind of sleazy backhanded way to stick the Mormon church up into Romney and break it off.

    And where do any of you Huckabee people get off on accusing Romney of flip-flopping? He’s changed his mind on abortion – and says so directly and with an explanation. That’s as much as you could ask for. Other than that, Romney really hasn’t had much in the way of major changes in issues, but mostly seemingly in language and spin, maybe nudging a bit more restrictionist on immigration – but not nearly as much as Huckabee. I watched Tim Russert do his worst to him for an hour, and Romney had pretty reasonable sounding explanations for most of the supposed inconsistencies. He’s certainly no worse there than Huckabee, who raised taxes and called his critics at the Club for Growth the “Club for Greed” – and then calls for eliminating income taxes as a candidate for president. Like that other Arkansas traveler from Hope, this guy will say pretty much anything to get a vote.

    But what I most love is your cheesy martyr complex for Huckabee. “The more people who attack Gov. Huckabee the higher he rises. The Word of God says that the last will be first and the first will be last.” Oh yeah, Slick Huck’s suffering the horrible martyrdom of being “attacked” ie criticized in print for his ill behavior as a candidate for public office.

    See, critics point out that Huckabee’s a sleazy huckster, and the knuckle-draggers that he primarily appeals to start carrying on like he’s a martyr for Christ. That’s just exactly the kind of self-serving bullshit that makes folks cynical about religious people being involved in politics.

    Alec – Please don’t get me wrong. As a non-believer, I certainly don’t demand a religious test for office. However, I would appreciate a candidate who bears some of the personality traits of that groovy mortal guy Jesus of Nazareth. I would at least appreciate if a candidate for office was not a sleazy religious demagogue.

    But if I WERE looking for a Bible modeled candidate, I’d be thinking more Old Testament vengeful God, ie Yahweh rather than Jesus. That line of thinking would naturally tend to incline one to Giuliani.

    Beyond that though, I did not mean this article as an exhaustive comparison of the two candidates, just an examination of this one underlying religious dynamic which seems to be pretty critical in this horserace. Other than Christian charity, I didn’t get into discussions of the issues. That’s another point.

    And ultimately to me, the point with these religious issues isn’t religious faith or doctrine. I don’t believe in either or any faith, so I don’t necessarily care. But I do care about the kind of basic personal honesty and integrity that religion is supposed to instill. Not to say that Romney’s perfect – for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God – but he sure seems like he does a better job of following the basic Ten Commandments and Golden Rule morality than the preacher does.

  • John


    I find it interesting that Huckabee can’t ask “Don’t Mormons believe that Christ and the devil are brothers?” But its fair for you to ask Huckabee “Do you believe in evolution?”

    They are the exact same question and that question is “How crazy is your religion?”

    Also, saying that you’re a non-believer does not make you objective. It makes it clear that your only objective is to attack the candidate who isn’t afraid to profess to be a christian unabashedly.

    And you do so by making broad statements with no attempt to back them up with a single citation

    1. “He’s repeatedly compared himself and his campaign to that guy that fed multitudes with just a couple of loaves and fishes.” Really? Please tell us, Al, when he ever said he was Jesus Christ.

    2. “lack of character or principles that characterize both Clinton and Huckabee” I would define character and principle as holding true to your beliefs and moral convictions regardless of the situation. Which is exactly what you attack Huckabee for.

    3. “He bills himself in early tv ads as a “Christian leader,” in implicit contrast to the front runner who is not.” So which is it Al, is Romney Christian or isn’t he? You’ve spent most of your article proclaiming how Christian he is and how Christian he attests to being. So how is this ad in contrtast to any other candidate? You don’t care that he’s “demogogueing” anyone. You’re real issue is just the fact that a Christian has the balls to say it out loud. Period

    4. “Nor will he directly deny that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are Christians, as it’s just not his proper role as a candidate to take a position on such an issue.In other words, the PC folk won’t let me say it, but you know – wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more True Brother Christians.” So which is it Al? Is Huckabee a jerk for proclaiming his faith? or he is he a jerk for toning it down? News flash Al, every religion thinks other religions are wrong. Just like aethiests like you think religion-period is wrong. If you ask Mormon leaders if they think Baptists practice the right form of Christianity they would say “No”, too.

    5. “Unmistakably, Mike Huckabee has consciously said things to appeal to the most base angels of his constituents’ nature to turn them in hatred even against a brother who also proclaims Jesus Christ as his savior” Like what Al? Please cite one source where Huckabee does anymore to Romney, than you’re doing to him and christians in general with your little “evolution” line?

    6. “I would find it highly unlikely that he would foment hatred against another man for personal gain, much less fomenting hatred against whole groups as Huckabee does.” Again, cite something Al. Try being a journalist instead of an ignorant blogger.

    I also love how you accuse other people of inciting hatefulness when you write unsubstantiated drivel to mislead your readers and have the gaul to call someone a “nasty hick”.

    Anyone reading this I urge you to actually investigate the nonsense this guy is spouting. Google search transcripts of Mike Huckabee interviews/speeches/debates, look up clips on youtube. Don’t just buy into a hack blogger with an axe to grind.

  • Baronious, I don’t have a horse in the race as between Mormons vs Baptists. I am definitely rooting against Huckabee at this point, though. I thought he was amusing in his completely seat of the pants joke kind of way for a minute, but this hateful underhanded crap has completely turned me off to him personally. But again, I don’t necessarily hold that against all Baptists.

  • troll

    hermano Al – what’s the problem with a slick underhanded nasty hick preacher…might be just what’s needed to negotiate with mullahs

  • Jim

    I used to think he didn’t have a chance. With all the attacks from the left however, I think we may just see a Huckabee in the White House.

    By the way, anyone see the full context of what Huckabee said to the Times reporter?

  • Ed Barger


    I read your Chuck the Huck post and the pro/con tag alongs with interest. My two request are that you rethink your personal non-believer position and second, help promote the seperation of religious beliefs from state and government politics.

    Ed Barger

  • Great article, Al.

    I liked Huckabee until I heard about the not-so-subtle smear attack he made against Romney (and all Mormons) in that NYT interview. I’ve pretty much given up on Rudy (too liberal, too much personal baggage), and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to forgive McCain for some of the positions he taken over the years on issues that are very important to me (campaign finance “reform,” illegal immigration, etc.). Tancredo simply isn’t presidential, and Duncan Hunter is polling at about 1%.

    So I guess I’m left with Mitt, Thompson (who is currently far behind and losing ground in the polls), and Ron Paul (who has roughly zero chance of actually winning the nomination). :-/

  • BTW, the comment spam from Huckabee supporters is MUCH more obnoxious than anything I’ve seen from Ron Paul supporters…

  • Bob

    Blah blah blah…..

    Mitt Romney WILL be the next president.

    If you’re a whiney little commie Obama Osama or Billary supporter…too fucking bad..

    Deal with it losers!

  • Ed [comment #28] – Please don’t get me wrong – I’m not particularly looking for a religious candidate, as I’m not religious myself. But again, I would appreciate a candidate who shows some of the positive behaviors and character traits that it is the best purpose of religion to inculcate, ie honesty and brotherly love.

    And if someone’s a preacher running for public office, I’ll damn well expect them to be well above board on such things. Huckabee is not, and reminds me only too much of Bill Clinton.

    As to re-thinking my status as a non-believer, I’m not going to try to talk myself into believing in some foolishness. However, I do not claim to know the answers to the mystery of life, and remain open to a message from God if he has something to say to me. Being a somewhat slow-witted Kentuckian though, it would probably take a burning bush or a blinding light on the road to Damascus for me to get the point.

    John [comment #24] – As Huckabee supporters go, you are so far clearly the most literate. You actually address me in a civil manner, and manage to write decent coherent English. Thank you for the effort.

    However, your arguments aren’t really impressive. Your argument 5 in particular seems odd. What did Huckabee do? The Jesus and Satan business, and the “Christian leader” most specifically are what he’s done that’s so un-Christian. I explained those in detail and provided links to news stories. And I haven’t said anything against Christianity or Jesus Christ – only schmucks doing un-Christ like things while claiming his name.

    Also, in your point 6, you want me to cite something. Well, did you follow the links in those words? It would tell you exactly what I had in mind there, which would be his anti-gay remarks and wanting to lock up AIDS patients. Here’s the relevant text from my original story: fomenting hatred against whole groups as Huckabee does.

  • Zannty

    You need to start at the Kindergarten level of Christianity and learn what it is really all about….as it is a fact….you do not KNOW! Also, while you are at it study the Mormon RELIGION AND ASK WHY THEY WEAR SPECIAL UNDERWEAR EVEN WHILE GIVING BIRTH! Also, inquire about what happens to people from the top rung of Mormonism when they depart from that group and devulge info about what actually happens in the upper 20%, that is, if they are still alive to tell it.

  • Zannty

    You need to start at the Kindergarten level of Christianity and learn what it is really all about….as it is a fact….you do not KNOW! Also, while you are at it study the Mormon RELIGION AND ASK WHY THEY WEAR SPECIAL UNDERWEAR EVEN WHILE GIVING BIRTH! Also, inquire about what happens to people from the top rung of Mormonism when they depart from that group and devulge info about what actually happens in the upper 20%, that is, if they are still alive to tell it.

  • Mr. Mitt Romney is truly a Christian person, he treats his wife the way all women should be treated – with love, admiration and respect. He has a great family, all 5 sons with love and respect with one another. I did not know that Mr. Romney is a Mormon until the media said so. So I can see that Mormons have great family. I like that for a President. As well as intelligence, nobody can doubt that with Mr. Romney and other great things that a Commander-In-Chief should have. GO MR. ROMNEY GO!!! Straight to the White House!!!!

  • Al, you asked me to elucidate as to how you’re living in a “reverse universe.”

    I could write pages! Let’s look at the facts. In a lengthy interview Mike Huckabee made ONE comment about Mormonism which is actually true. Even if there was something deliberate about this question, he personally apologized to Romney.

    Conversely, Romney has created very misleading direct mail and television ads about each of his opponents, most of all Mike Huckabee. He attacks Huckabee DAILY in the press, taking Huckabee’s comments out of context and running a completely negative campaign. Romney has shown himself to be deceitful, lying about endorsements he has not received. He has flip flopped on abortion, gay rights, immigration, gun control, stem cell research, etc. He seems to hold no true convictions, adopting whatever stance on an issue he thinks will get him elected. When running against Ted Kennedy in 94 he said he was NOT a Reagan-Bush Repulican and now that he is running for the Republican nomination, all of a sudden, he decides he is indeed a Reagan Republican. He is the most dishonest politician I’ve ever seen.

    Governor Huckabee, on the other hand, has run a very positive campaign. He refuses to run negative ads even in response to Romney’s attacks. He prefers instead to spend his time telling the American people how he will lift this country up. He stands up for what he believes in, even when it is unpopular.

    I would sum up these two candidates with the following …
    Mike Huckabee: “This is what I stand for, I hope you agree and vote for me”
    Mitt Romney: “Tell me what you want me to stand for so I can win your vote”.

    Ultimately, the key to Huckabee’s massive surge in the polls, despite limited funds and organizational support, is his supporters sense in Mike a true, authentic yet imperfect Christian, and someone who reflects and has consistantly stood for their values. He appeals to so many Americans who are tired of Washington elites, Wall Street, and the media who all think they can elect our President.

  • Alec

    RE: However, I would appreciate a candidate who bears some of the personality traits of that groovy mortal guy Jesus of Nazareth.

    I note your preference for a hippie-dude “Jesus Christ Superstar” kind of candidate, but this makes just as much sense as wanting a presidential candidate who resembles Santa Claus. Nobody knows what the historical Jesus was “really like.” And since Jesus never ran for or was elected to public office, I have no idea why an imitation of Christ is supposed to be meaningful with respect to the attributes of a presidential candidate.

    RE: I would at least appreciate if a candidate for office was not a sleazy religious demagogue.

    How about a candidate who is neither sleazy, nor religious, nor a demagogue?

    RE: But if I WERE looking for a Bible modeled candidate, I’d be thinking more Old Testament vengeful God, ie Yahweh rather than Jesus. That line of thinking would naturally tend to incline one to Giuliani.

    Uh, no. The idea of a vengeful deity is based on a false dichotomy between the supposed Old and New Testaments. But even more false is the idea of looking to any religious text for hints of a presidential candidate.

    RE: And ultimately to me, the point with these religious issues isn’t religious faith or doctrine. I don’t believe in either or any faith, so I don’t necessarily care. But I do care about the kind of basic personal honesty and integrity that religion is supposed to instill.

    Religion is supposed to instill integrity? According to what reading of which religion?

    RE: Not to say that Romney’s perfect – for all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God – but he sure seems like he does a better job of following the basic Ten Commandments and Golden Rule morality than the preacher does.

    This neatly sidesteps the question of qualification or even competence. That either Romney or Huckabee exactly follows the Ten Commandments might be useful information in looking for a Sunday School teacher, but it is low on any rational discussion of what it takes to be president of the United States.

    RE: Mitt Romney WILL be the next president. If you’re a whiney little commie Obama Osama or Billary supporter…too fucking bad.. Deal with it losers!

    Spoken like a true fucking Christian. Of course, the loser, if any Republican wins this next presidential election, will be the American people.

  • Utah PL

    I must say that I am amazed at how uninformed some people are. This discussion should not be taking a turn into whether or not Mormons are Christians. Nor should it be a question of Gov. Romney or Gov. Huckabee being a “better christian”. This is a job for the person that can lead all faiths/beliefs for the 4 years they are in office. This job is about LEADERSHIP, HONESTY, TRUST, and doing what is best for ALL of us.
    *Zannty-You are one funny duck. Where do you get that garbage about us Mormons. I happen to be one of those who wears “SPECIAL UNDERWEAR” and I can tell you have either been reading too much in the conspiracy theory realm or you have been smokin too much weed and it’s rotted your brain. Either way, you have written some funny stuff.

  • Colin – Thanks for taking the time for that response, but it’s very broad and general and thus not very meaningful.

    Huckabee has not been running a positive campaign, in that his most notable tactic has been screwing with Romney over being Mormon. That’s not positive, nor very Christian. That kind of sleazy underhanded religious divisiveness that Huckabee’s been peddling appeals to the worst angels of the religious right’s nature, not the more truly Christ-like.

    Romney has not been making false and bigoted claims against Huckabee, or played very rough really at all. What specific Romney ads would you point to as dishonest?

    This article, again, was not about all the policy issues of the campaign, but just the religious angle. Still, I say again that Huckabee has been far worse a flip-flopper than Romney, if that is your angle. Huckabee was basically all pro-immigration as a governor, and now taking a fairly radical stand against it. Romney seems to have been only maybe marginally tougher there than Huckabee, but then he’s not moved so far the other way rhetorically either.

    Then there’s Huckabee on taxes. He raised a lot of taxes as governor. He’s clearly the most tax hungry Republican on the stage – but now he’s all for absolutely eliminating the income tax, all right suddenly. That’s not kind of shifting your position a little bit for competitive positioning, but just absolutely doing a 180 from anything about how he ever governed or would ever try to actually govern.

    Now, Romney changed his mind on abortion – but it’s important that he’s openly saying that he has done so (and making a plausible explanation why). He’s not pretending that he always thought that way. And at that, it seems that in the practice, he behaved in a pro-life way on pretty near all the related issues that came before him as governor.

    Other than that, most of the supposed flip-flopping is just in language and tone – and I’ll give any politician some room to work on those counts. When he said he was not a Reagan Republican, that was just that the Reagan mantle wouldn’t be helpful to him in Massachusetts. But how did that reflect any substantive difference in public policy?

    I watched Tim Russert rake him over the coals, and Mitt actually came out pretty clean. I don’t see where he’s changed his position substantially on gun control. He was never any big advocate of it, and he’s not a suddenly converted 2nd Amendment absolutist now. He’s joined the NRA, but says directly that he doesn’t necessarily agree with them on everything.

    The worst problem with Romney is that he comes across too much as a super salesman. You know he’s sharp and prepared, and could probably sell ice to the proverbial Eskimo. Therefore, you might understandably be a little suspicious.

    But Huckabee’s a salesman, too. Indeed, he may be a better salesman because he’s so much better at his aw, shucks act and pretending he’s not a salesman at all. But Romney is selling an expensive car with features you may or may not like. Whereas the Arkansas traveler is flat selling snake oil, and obviously has no clue what the real issues are.

    I mean, the guy took a couple of days to notice that NIE report on Iran. Whatever you make of that report, it’s pretty near to disqualifying simply that Huckabee didn’t know. He doesn’t have a foreign policy adviser, nor any particular view, other than a really broad bromide that we should be nicer to foreign countries.

    In short, Romney’s a little slick perhaps, but he knows his business and has some real knowledge and skills to run a government – whether or not I’d agree with all his decisions. Huckabee, on the other hand, is an absolute fraud. Romney’s maybe a bit slick and corporate in style, but Huckabee’s positively devious.

  • Mormons Christians

    phhhttt (#21):

    You acuse Al of not “conducting journalistic research to find out what Mormon’s actually believe” yet I seriously doubt that you know what Mormon’s believe and if it is really different than what Christians believe.

    First: Christians believe that God created everything, including Satan but that Satan is a fallen angel. This is exactly what Mormons believe.

    A fundamental Christian beliefe is that Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father and the only true path to return to live with the Father is by the Atonement of Christ. Guess what? This is precisely the foundation of all Mormon doctrine.

    Now to say that Mormons believe that Christ and Satan are spiritual brothers would be the same thing as saying that Catholics believe that Mother Theresa and Hitler are spiritual brothers or that protestants believe that Martin Luther and Ghengis Khan are spiritual brothers. Technically true, but irrelevant and misleading.

    Baronius (#21):

    “You could also argue that Mormons fail that most basic Christian Teaching that Jesus is God”. How? That is the foundation and core of Mormon faith. Mormons believe that the only path to salvation is by Christ, all ordinances, and prayers in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are done in the name of Jesus Christ. Almost every lesson on Sunday revolves around the life, ministry, and mission of Jesus Christ.

    John (#24)

    You attacked Al by stating that is only goal is to “attack the candidate who isn’t afraid to profess unabashedly to be a Christian”.

    I am sorry, but Huckabee is by far not the only Candidate who has professed unabashedly to being a Christian.

  • Lee Richards

    Hilarious–and very sad–that it’s the 21st century and the Republican nomination for POTUS may hinge on the candidates’ preferences in mythology!

    Better to try and determine which candidate would make an honest and effective president in spite of his religious beliefs than because of them.

    Or do you like the idea of a “Christian” government?

  • Lee Richards

    Hilarious–and very sad–that it’s the 21st century and the Republican nomination for POTUS may hinge on the candidates’ preferences in mythology!

    Better to try and determine which candidate would make an honest and effective president in spite of his religious beliefs than because of them.

    Or do you like the idea of a “Christian” government?

  • Utah PL – Again, I’m not a believer, and don’t care about Mitt’s underwear any more than I gave a rat’s ass about Clinton’s boxers or briefs. When I say that Romney’s a better Christian, I mostly mean that in terms of just the kinds of character traits you list there: “LEADERSHIP, HONESTY, TRUST, and doing what is best for ALL of us.” Specific policy proposals aside, I’d trust Romney 10 to 1 on any of those general character traits over the Huckster.

    Alec – It would entirely cool with me if a candidate for POTUS was an atheist. But the point here is that Huckabee carries on about being a “Christian leader,” but doesn’t do a very good job at all at living up his billing.

    As to hippie-Jesus, you perhaps misread me. I’m pretty much Eric Cartman made flesh, and I despise a damned dirty hippie as much as the next rightwing nutjob. My point was to try to distinguish the ideas and philosophy of Christ the character from any religious-type beliefs, ie the resurrection story.

  • johnny scott

    great article … as I study to whom i should vote for i ran across another romney fact thats been carefuly overlooked . he once shut down a corporation for days to help a frind and fellow business partner find a daughter who had overdosed on drugs , he put all the resourses of tghe company towards flyers and feet on the ground efforts , she was found minutes before slipping into a coma . do we want a president whos smart , has integrity , has deep beliefs who has never let his mate or family down , ive decided this week because he has what it takes .

  • “You could also argue that Mormons fail that most basic Christian Teaching that Jesus is God”. How? That is the foundation and core of Mormon faith. Mormons believe that the only path to salvation is by Christ, all ordinances, and prayers in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are done in the name of Jesus Christ. Almost every lesson on Sunday revolves around the life, ministry, and mission of Jesus Christ.

    I can vouch for this. I went to a Mormon church once as a young child (long story), and Jesus Christ was absolutely front-and-center in their biblical teachings.

    It is my opinion that a lot of these Protestant preachers/reverends tell their congregations that Mormonism is a “cult” because they fear losing parishioners to them. After all, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been growing in membership quite rapidly, and therefore other denominations view them as a threat. So they use disinformation about this religion in order to prevent their flock from leaving.

    It’s disgusting, really.

  • RJ- Thanks for that independent testimony. That does confirm the general point of assumption that I’d make based on them calling themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

    Mitt Romney made your point with Russert, who was reading anti-Mormon quotes from Bob Jones III – and has endorsed Romney for president. Romney smiled gently and suggested briefly just that point about competition for adherents.

  • Sergio

    Good article if you don’t believe in God. Its very biased. You like Romney because you think he has a better chance of winning because he has alot of campaign money(Goliath). Its amazing when Huckabee was not winning how people like you were not criticizing him. Now that he is beating others with less campaign money(David) he supposedly is the least Christian of them all. How can you know that future U.S. President Mike Huckabee is using manipulation of his true faith as a weapon when you, yourself admitt you do not know what true faith is. Its ok to use the parables of the Bible if your influencing people to understand a point like David vs. Goliath. I believe manipulation is when one party benefits only. And influence is when two or more party benefits. So far of what I know about future U.S. President Huckabee, is when he wins the Presidency, alot of people will admit that this great country and they are benfitting from his leadership and the other people will benefit, too. They just won’t give him the credit. Which by the way, Jesus doesn’t care who is the least of them. He the Savior just cares to know if your one of them.

  • Marlene


  • Sergio, you seem to have no effective answer to anything that I have said about Rev Huck, and thus are reduced to saying that my motivations are bad. Again, this kind of hateful psychological analysis of me is a distinctly un-Christian gesture – which type of negativity I’ve never heard from a Romney supporter, and rarely from any Mormon.

    I’m less than impressed also with how you have to shoehorn in bogus Biblical analogies, so you can make it that I’m just wanting to support Goliath. Yet this is not based on anything whatsoever in my article. I never mentioned nor considered which candidate was more electable. My consideration was entirely based on which of those two candidates would be the better president, and particularly which would be better in regards to basic core Christian personal values.

    And MANY people suffer when the Huckster carefully turns Baptist against Mormon, so that ONE political candidate can benefit.

  • Maybe it’s just me, or a lack of sleep or something, but comments 51 and 52 nake no sense whatsoever. Their vitriol, neaningless as it is, does disturb me, however.

  • Baronius

    I said, with painful care, that you could argue that Mormonism doesn’t see Jesus as God. My understanding is that Mormons aren’t trinitarian – they see Jesus as distinct from God the Father. Most denominations of Christianity see the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Redemption as essential beliefs. Most denominations wouldn’t accept Mormonism as Christian, and most Christian preachers would give an answer similar to Huckabee’s. I don’t require a correct answer to that question from a presidential candidate.

  • Irene Wagner

    If Huckabee and Romney were chicks, and there were tee shirts and mud involved, I don’t think y’all could be any more all over this story. Enjoy the catfight while it’s still news.

    The question any Christian politician should ask himself before brandishing the LORD’s name in a political campaign is WWRPD?

    Here’s what Ron Paul has to say: “I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator.”

    For those of you wanting voting advice from someone who speaks your spiritual language, I offer the following:

    Jews for Ron Paul

    Mormons for Ron Paul

    Indians and Pakistanis for Ron Paul
    (Someone wanting to hear the views of other Hindus or Buddhists may find what they’re looking for here.)

  • “Some might accuse him of flip-flopping on some issues”

    Only the ones that have seen the videotape footage of him holding different positions, depending on the office he’s running for. Of course, it could be pure coincidence that he claimed liberal views when running for the Senate in Mass, and now has conservative views while running to be the Republican nominee for President.

    “you’d be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life.”

    You mean other than being a member of a religion that discriminated against blacks until 1978? If you don’t find a “hint of impropriety” in that way of thinking, then you really shouldn’t be calling others “knuckle-draggers”.

  • Brother Al,

    All those years I was voting for folks in the States I was supposed to consider whether they were good Christians or not?

    Man, do I feel bad. I never even thought about stuff like that! Wow! What an uninformed voter I was! Can I ever be forgiven my lapses in judgment?

    You know, in Jerusalem, there is a bookstore called “The Torch” where they sell all sorts of Christian stuff. Do you think I could get a Christian “vibo-meter” that I could hold in front of the Youtubes I download that will turn green if an American candidate is a good Christian and turn red if he is a bad one?

  • Why would being highly religious, or the best Christian be a plus for ANY candidate?

    We’re not electing a high priest, we’re electing someone to run our government.

    Believing in magic, fairies, juju, moroni, yahweh or any other fantasy ought to disqualify you from the presidency or at least cause us to take you less seriously, not be an asset.

    And that should apply to Ron Paul as much as to Huckabee and Romney.


  • Truth Hurts

    All i have to say is in politics both teams are on the same side. No matter who wins we all lose!!

  • alessandro

    Did anyone happen to catch Lawrence O’Donnell’s flip out on the Mormons on the McLaughlin Group a couple of weeks ago?

  • Brother Ruvy- No, I wouldn’t necessarily expect you to look for whether the candidate was particularly a good Christian, but at whether they’re a good person with good personal values. That might come out as being a good Christian, a pious Muslim, or an upstanding Jew such as yourself. Or, lest Brother Nalle be offended, it could be an atheist with strong independently acquired moral scruples.

    But the leading candidate for the Republican nomination at the moment is not showing those things to me. Huckabee comes across as really the sleaziest guy in the Republican field – made considerably worse in my judgment by the bogus proclamations of propriety.

  • Al, that raises the issue of whether Christian ‘values’ as taught by certain sects in America are desirable at all. Values like hatred of minorities and homosexuals and non-Christians seem well beneath the level of morality we should be looking for as a nation.


  • Both candidates are extremely slick, and like all politicians, extremely calculating. But Huckabee, like Bush, plays the role of good ole boy quite skillfully. Romney, with his perfect smile and hairdo, looks over-polished, over-rehearsed, and this gives more traction to charges that he is almost completely insincere.

    As a gay man, I’ll never forgive Romney for his two-faced exploitation of gay issues before and after his election as governor. I will always think of him as a snake.

    But if he really is a moderate beneath all his disgusting social-conservative posturing, as some of his supporters would have us believe, does that make him more palatable? To me, quite the opposite.

    I think Al gives him way too much of a free pass by saying, yes, he flip-flops, but actually less than other politicians. Talk about rationalizing!

    But the idea of a former Baptist preacher as President of the US gives me the shivers, too. I’m glad the Dems are ahead in the polls now…I just hope we don’t muck things up the way we did in ’88, ’00 and ’04.

  • Yes Dave, that’s fair enough. Most Klansmen considered themselves to be good Christians. Even beyond obviously wicked permutations like that, even decent Christians have some twisted philosophical premises. As a student of Ayn Rand, I’m totally conscious of those things.

    But then there are those good values that most religions are mostly trying to encourage in their flock. In that regard and depending on the person, I’m inclined to look highly favorably on Mormons. Some of their mythology looks really silly to me – though no more so than, for example, transubstantiation, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Doctrine aside, actual living modern Mormons have a pretty strong and well earned reputation for being honest, upstanding neighbors with strong family values.

    They may not be the hippest hep cats in town, but I’d be happy to have the Osmond family representing for US. I’d certainly rather have the Osmonds than a wicked demagogue heir to William Jennings Bryan.

  • Mike Nichols

    I am a liberal by definition.

    Jesus is a liberal.

    I am a Democrat.

    I am a Christian.

    I recognize Christian principles at work.

    I will vote for Mike Huckabee.

  • Jesus is a liberal.

    I would characterize him more as a political conservative…

    “I come not to change one iota of the law…”

    ‘Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is God’s…”

    …but a social liberal:

    “Suffer the little children to come unto me…”

    “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven…”

    That kind of thing.

  • Better Christian? Hmmm Ok there is a new qualification for being President. It is kind of funny really that this would be turned into an issue at all. The far right has been preaching their own righteousness since the Regan years to anyone who would listen and have now pretty much become the public face of the republican party.

    Now that they have achieved that victory by ridicule, spin and slander against every group they could possibly attack and are at the peak of their game they have run out of enemies to hold themselves up against as “lesser” people. So now, in order to satisfy their insatiable need to prove their own goodness, they are forced to turn on each other. It takes the term “holier than thou” to a whole new level…lol

  • Matt

    I don’t think Evangelicals are Christians. They not only label mormonism as a cult, but also Catholicism, Jehova’s Witnesses, Scientology, and anyone else they don’t agree with. Their actions in many other ways show that they are much more like the Pharisees than the followers of Jesus.

  • Zac

    Mike Huckabee would do the same thing the same way if Mitt were running or not.

    This is you looking for something that isn’t really there. kinda dumb if you ask me.

  • Matt

    People should start calling Evangelicals “The Christian Taliban.” While they may not have earned the Christian part by what they do, they have certainly earned the “Taliban” part.

  • bethtopaz

    If a person attended law school for one year and then dropped out, but consistently told everyone that he had a law degree and therefore, he was qualified to speak on subjects related to the law, would you still have respect for that person?

    Do you think that person just may get fired from his job for lying on his resume about his credentials?

    Well, that is exactly what Huckabee is doing.

    He has repeatedly bragged about his theology degree.

    He doesn’t have a theology degree (a Masters in Divinity).

    He has a BA which is essential in order to qualify someone for earning a theological degree.

    Only problem is that he dropped out of seminary after one year and started working for a televangelist.

    This alone disqualifies him from the job of POTUS.

  • Matthew

    Right on Al!

    Huckabee is nothing but a HYPOCRITE! It has gotten worst in the past weeks. The most recent proof is his Christmas ad. In the ad, he denounces political ads and political commercials around this Christmas time with – GUESS WHAT? – a POLITICAL COMMERCIAL of his own, masked as a Christmas greeting/wish. Who does not know that the ad is a political one, when the disclaimer states that: “I am Mike Huckabee and I approve this message” with his campaign website address on there? And then deceivingly used part of a glowing window pane as a CROSS in the background. Mockery at its best! How more hypocritical and underhanded can one get? Well, I will find comfort in knowing the ONE who doesn’t like hypocrites!

  • Huckabee may be a hypocrite, but let’s not forget that Romney is one of the biggest hypocrites on earth, having changed his position on every major issue over the last 4 years from positions which the author of this piece would find utterly unacceptable to ones which make him the perfect candidate for the religiously motivated and intellectually bankrupt ‘values’ voters.


  • Irene Wagner

    #55, #59, #55: What happened??? Did Church Lady beat someone over the head with her handbag this morning?

    FACT: People possessing the same level of intellect, the same capacity for ethical and even compassionate behavior and the same level of belief or lack of belief in the Supernatural will assign different priorities to:

    *babies in foreign lands being wired to explosive devices in foreign conflicts exacerbated by manipulative and exploitative American intervention.

    *full-term babies in America being decapitated by abortionists wishing to avoid murder charges.

    *babies in foreign lands starving to death on baby forumula diluted with impure water because a big American baby food corporation convinced their impoverished moms to buy their expensive product rather than the cheaper and more wholesome alternative of breastfeeding.

    *inequitable tax breaks for traditional households vs. nontraditional households.

    I support Ron Paul because he’s managed to assemble a group of colaborating backers who are all over the spectrum in terms of the priorities they assign to these matters. He wants careful reasoned debate on them, rather than having unelected PAC’s and lobbyists steer federal representatives (who already have more legislation in front of them than they could ever possibly read) into decisions that don’t reflect the will of the people.

    Americans aren’t going to find solutions we can be proud of by tossing tired slogans and increasingly barbarous insults across the great divide. I’m sick of hearing it from the faithful, and I’m sick of hearing it from atheists.

  • Outstanding article. Al, you’re clearly a very bright guy.

    I’m a Republican who thinks the Christian Coalition has been huge for the GOP and I want Evangelicals’ voice to be heard in political discourse. For that reason I will not vote for Huckabee in the primaries or general. He will take the Evangelical vote away from issues to identity only and identity politics is not a platform that can be sustained among rational people.

    Huckabee’s fear of the issues has caused him to produce adds that avoid them and only highlites his “Christian” status. This fear has also caused him to decline a spot on “Meet the Press,” where he would get eaten alive and he knows it.

    The main difference between the approaches used by Huck/Mitt is that Mitt, in his own name and with full personal responsibility openly questions Huckabee’s record. Huckabee, on the other hand, uses whispers, “innocent questions,” push polls, etc. to sway public opinion of the “knuckle draggers” Al referred to. Then, Huckabee claims Mitt is the negative candidate. Amazing.

  • Irene Wagner

    Amendment to Last Line minus three: Exceptions are issues that are Constitutionally within the purview of the federal government.

  • Mathew


    Maybe you need to look up the definition and meaning of the word “hypocrite” before you spill your misinterpretations and ambiguity. Romney has changed and admitted that he has changed his views/positions on issues (e.g. on abortion). That’s not hypocrisy, especially when one admits that he has CHANGED. A hypocrite is someone who pretends to be someone he’s not, and Huckabee is a proven hypocrite. He claims and pretends he is a “Christian” and touts his Jesus discipleship, and YET, he has done some unethical, dubitable and corrupt things especially while governor – like hundreds of gifts he was not entitled to, and failing to report them, the mansion’s (governor’s) furniture, destroying computer hard drives to hide information, using campaign money for personal things, lying about his theology degree, terminating an attorney for not defending/covering up his son’s crime, audacious pardons, etc., etc., Need I list more? If a poll were taken which one, of Romney and Huckabee, would be more associated with the words – “questionable character and corruption” – Huckabee would beat Romney by miles. And yet, here’s a guy who claims to be a Christian Leader, invoking Christ’s name at will? Now, that’s HYPOCRISY! OK, Dave?

  • Rod Johnson

    The question that I am struggling with is the issue of whether or not Mormons are Christians. Who has the right to tell somebody they aren’t a Christian when every single person of that faith claims to be a Christian.

    I think most Evangelicals understand this.

    Does believing this make you a Christian?

  • The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity’s comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

    The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”

    I agree with your reasoning that Evangelical pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

  • Mathew, it’s only not hypocrisy if you BELIEVE Romney’s statements that he’s changed his views for any reason other than getting elected. I don’t.

    As for the issue of whether Mormons are Christians or not, from the point of view of the more extreme evangelical sects episcopalians, lutherans, orthodoxl, catholic and a variety of other Christian sects aren’t actually Christian as they define it.


  • Dave, perhaps you could write us up an article explaining exactly what these Romney flip-flops are, cause I’m mostly not seeing them. Other than that he flat changed his mind on abortion, I’m not seeing where he’s dramatically changed his policy positions. I watched Russert work on him for an hour (and I would LOVE to watch he peel the bark off the Huckster), and even Tim Russert couldn’t get too much on him.

    That’s not to say that I support Romney, or necessarily AGREE with any of his positions – but I just don’t see where he’s been that egregious with the flippin and the floppin.

  • bethtopaz

    I would love to see Russert interview Huckabee again, too, but he’s too chicken to go on.

    He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support.

    He comes out with this ultra-strong plan on immigration in the last week or so (which came straight out of the pages of a two year old National Review magazine, according to Rich Lowry).

    The real flipper is the Huckster.

  • Irene Wagner

    Rod Johnson – I suppose that other than Jesus and the person who claims to know Him, there’s no other being born of woman who knows for sure the authenticity of a man’s relationship with God. King David, presumed upon his position as “a man after God’s own heart” and became an adulterer, a murderer, and a liar…and then experienced forgiveness, and was used by God to give us *Psalm 51.

    I haven’t found anything in the Nicene Creed to which you linked that “ain’t Bible,” and yet many people who recite it every Sunday aren’t even sure they believe in God.

    Jesus said “ye must be born again,” but right after that: “the wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and wither it goeth: so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” So, being “born again” seems to be a rather mysterious experience, differing from person to person, doesn’t it?

    It’s a huge paradigm shift to switch from a worldview that doesn’t include God (the worldview of professing atheists and even some who still claim membership in one religious organization or another) to a worldview founded upon the belief, growing over the years like a plant (including winters of doubt) that God is real and active in the world and in one’s life. The religious organization that served as “midwife” for that paradigm shift tends to be the one whose theology one accepts as Truth, at least at first. That’s only natural.

    The Bible* says there is no one, NO ONE, who comes to God with a contrite heart who is turned away. I can’t find any qualifications as to the level of doctrinal purity required. Quite the opposite: the one to be forgiven and embraced by God must come to Him as a little child.

    In a lifetime no one can comprehend the height, breadth, width of the love that drove Jesus to the Cross. I know it extends much farther than any Christian alive today can imagine. That doesn’t mean we don’t warn people that there is a Day of Reckoning coming, and tell people, gently and respectfully, what we believe about Jesus.

    The Judgment Day is going to be scary, but I rejoice that I get to stand in line waiting my turn rather than having to sit as Judge. That’s Jesus’ job, and he knows the secrets of men’s hearts better than I ever could.

    That is a very good question by the way, Rod Johnson–and Al Barger, you have a thought-provoking web-page about faith that I wish I’d looked at before before I made the snarky remark about mud-wrestling (#52).

    Merry Christmas one and all, and don’t forget that RON PAUL BUMPER STICKERS make terrific stocking stuffers!

  • “Believing in magic, fairies, juju, moroni, yahweh or any other fantasy ought to disqualify you from the presidency”

    Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn’t change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.

    (BTW, I’m agnostic, and I’m pretty sure Al is as well.)

  • re: #54


    Gee, doesn’t Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? 😉

  • “you’d be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life.”

    You mean other than being a member of a religion that discriminated against blacks until 1978?

    From Barack Hussein Obama’s church:

    We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian… Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain “true to our native land,” the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

    Sounds very diverse!

  • “He is so soft on immigration that Gilchrist is now thinking of withdrawing his support.”

    I was unaware of this, so I looked it up. Thanks.

    Here’s the story.

  • Irene Wagner

    RJ: I’ve always felt welcome in the Black Churches I’ve visited. One of them even had an organ riff played before the name of each visitor as it was announced, including mine. The Black Worship experience has certain distinctives that would be lost–there is no other music like Black Gospel–if it were just absorbed into another (also worth preserving) expression of Christianity, such as “Smells and Bells” High Church Anglicanism, for instance.

  • The discussion was about Romney not Obama, RJ. Is your reading comprehension that poor?

  • At @82:

    Gee, doesn’t Israel have religion(Judaism)-based political parties? 😉

    Of course we do. Here, we come right out and say so: there is the National Religious Party, the Flag of the Torah, etc. In addition, we Jews are chock full of atheists, agnostics and just plain G-d haters, in addition to fools who think that shaking and praying is the only solution to bringing about Redemption – if they even understand what Redemption really means.

    The national anthem, (haTikvá, The Hope) talks about the soul of the Jew. No Arab Israeli can sing that song and ever mean it. The Zionist State of Israel is meant to be a Jewish State, and there is just no getting around that fact.

    So, don’t compare us to you. Your country was founded by Deists and Theists who essentially incorporated the Laws of Noah and their spirit into their constitutions and laws. Having wandered from those laws, Americans have lost their way and lost their blessing from G-d, the blessing you sang about in your childhood in America the Beautiful and G-d Bless America. Your nation pretends to be non-religious, and you have oodles of people there (including American Jews) who are invested in the reality of that pretense.

  • Irene Wagner

    El Bicho. #83 wasn’t a non sequitur. The flow of this thread has been alternating all along between candidate-bashing and religion-bashing. #83 was a hybrid of these elements, being composed of LDS Church-defense, Romney-defense, and Black-Church-bashing, and only by extension of the Black-Church-bashing, Obama-bashing.

  • Miss Irene- I thank you for your testimony and thoughtful comments. You’re definitely representing better than average for some of the Christians here, and well above the average for a lot of the Ron Paul supporters we’ve seen in these parts this year.

    Brother Elliott might be pushing the point a little bit in comparing the quasi-racialist creed of Obama’s church with the openly exclusionary history of the LDS. Still, shoehorning that kind of racial stuff into religion is just not good.

    But of course, there are black churches and then there are black churches. I’m glad of the black churches and their music, which music has certainly provided me much spiritual sustenance. I’ve got the Dunham Jubilee Singers dreaming of the judgment morning right now. I think it’s going to be Sister Rosetta for breakfast. There’s a world of difference between a Christian church that has mostly black congregants and style vs Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson’s political demagoguery dressed up as religion.

    Also, if we’re going to smack Romney around because the LDS was exclusionary to blacks, then certainly Rev Huckabee among others should get to answer just about as much. White Christians in the South were often not any bit better about their treatment of blacks. I’m pretty sure there were a lot of sincere Baptists under them Klan robes – and probably few if any Mormons.

  • “Is Mormonism Christian?” is a very important question. The answer is equally important and simple. No. Mormonism is not Christian.

    If you are a Mormon, please realize that CARM is not trying to attack you, your character, or the sincerity of your belief. If you are a non-Mormon looking into Mormonism, or if you are a Christian who is simply researching Mormonism, then this paper should be of help to you.

    The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (that there is only one God, Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically, the gospel being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many gods there are, the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.

    Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is “a” god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.

    Because Mormonism denies the biblical truth of who God is, who Jesus is, how forgiveness of sins is attained, and what the gospel is, the Mormon is not Christian — in spite of all his claims that he is.
    this is a direct quote

  • Irene Wagner

    And thank YOU for your kind words Al Barger. In BC sometimes it’s (apologies to Meredith Willson): “Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash a little. Snark a little. Bash. Bash. Bash. Snark a little. Bash a lot.” And I’m the worst because it’s so much dang fun!

    Have a good day, Al, and how can any day not be good if it starts with the Dunham Jubilee Sisters?

  • Irene, it is no defense of Romney to point out what happens in Obama’s church, just a tactic to distract from the original point when the commentor has no answer.

  • There are plenty of reasons to oppose Romney and Huckabee that have little or nothing to do with religion. For those looking for a change from Bush, these two are not likely to provide it.

    I love the fact that Fred Thompson is now calling Huckabee a “liberal.” I guess that puts moderate Dems like me on the left side of Mars or something.

  • Dave, most Americans believe in God and are Christians. Just because you are an atheist/agnostic and view Christianity as a fairy tale doesn’t change the fact that most Americans heartily disagree. And in a democracy, those Americans get to cast votes that count just as much as yours. And some of these voters will likely cast their votes based upon this issue (for better or for worse). Denying this fact is to deny an important political reality. So this is certainly a topic worthy of discussion, especially with elections right around the corner.

    RJ, I don’t deny the fact that this will happen. I just disagree with the concept that it’s in anyway desirable to put a candidate’s religious beliefs high on the list of considerations in determining who to vote for. I’d rather have an honest Jew or Muslim than a dishonest atheist. I generally have great respect for quakers, but the only one we ever elected president was about as bent as you can get despite his religion.

    That said, I do think that openly accepting ANY form of extremist belief be it religion or something else is a serious negative for a presidential candidate. I wouldn’t want a racist, and for the same reasons I’d be inclined to reject a lot of fundamentalists who have extreme beliefs which are millenialist or exclusionary.

    Believing in god is just fine with me. Basing government policy on that belief in god is not.


  • Brother Al,

    The whole thing seems to be a matter of drawing lines, and one can compare the two Romney and Huckabee as “Christians” only if the line is drawn defining Mormons as Christians.

    Not to be opening Pandora’s box here, but if comment #89 is correct, the real answer to the whole question posed by your article is that it does not matter whether Huckabee is a scumbag or not. By definition, he is the better Christian simply because Mitt Romney, the Mormon, is not a Christian.

    Mind you, I’m not saying anything against Mormons or their beliefs. They are irrelevant to me. And I assume that a number of Mormons will get up on their hind legs and scream that I am anti-Mormon. I’m not. I could care less. I should point out to you here that the phrase “good Christian” – the key to your article – is to me an oxymoron, much like “military music”. But then again, I guess that comes of the mohel having his taken his tip when I was a little babe, giving me the name Reuven.

  • Brother Ruvy, I appreciate the drawing of lines thing, but I think I have the truer and more significant line. My line as to who’s a better Christian is primarily who does the best job of trying to act in a Christ-like manner on a day to day basis – not who most carefully fills out a man-made doctrinal checklist.

    By that light, I’d say that, for example, our famously non-believing Brother Nalle is nonetheless a much better Christian than Fred Phelps.

    Sister Irene, you might wish to raid my music stash, particularly the Good News Gospel section. I don’t dig much on being hated on, but a small pinch of snark is totally groovy. I certainly got some of it coming to me.

    Y’all might be interested in THIS RESPONSE to my column that came in the email.

  • Austin

    Mormons are Christians because the believe in Christ as he is literally presented in the Bible. As the Son of God who performed miracles and died and was ressurected. Belief in those truths makes one Christian. Individual interpretations are encompassed by the basic truths and principles established by the New Testament. If Mormons believe all that is presented and written of Christ in the Bible then they are absolutely Christians.

  • Quater

    This is because he is a Mormon, and regardless of what people think, this makes him not a Christian. Plain fact.

  • Quater- Don’t be an asshole. YOU don’t get to decide on whether someone else is a Christian. They worship Jesus Christ and claim the name of Christ – and mostly do a better job of actually living like Christians than many of the basic Baptists and Pentecostals I’ve known.

    If not accepting the right doctrine about the trinity ie the one YOU have chosen as revealed truth means that they’re going to hell for not agreeing with you, then seems like that’d be up to Jesus to decide. But I’m sure your mortal human frame will show some basic Christian humility, at least to the extent of not presuming to ex-communicate good sincere Christians because you don’t like their brand. Not your job. I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who’s a real Christian and not?

  • Ty

    I am supporting Ron Paul for President, and am a Mormon. Most of my friends are not members of my church, and I often have attended meetings or vacation bible schools with them and their families. I have the utmost respect for all of these people – how they lead their lives, and their devotion to Jesus Christ. However, one experience I had a few years ago serves to illustrate why Mormons believe we are Christian, and why we have trouble understanding why some people do not believe we are Christian. While attending vacation bible school with some friends in Raleigh, North Carolina, the pastor divided the adults into two classes – the “advanced” bible class, and the “beginner” bible class. My wife and I both served Mormon missions as young adults, and though a little leery decided to attend the “advanced” Bible class. It turned out that of the 40-50 adults, 6 people, including us, went to the advanced class. The class over the course of the week turned out not to be about the bible, but about the creeds of the Christian churches.

    The first creed discussed was the Apostle’s Creed, which states:


    I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
    Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell.

    The third day He arose again from the dead.
    He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
    whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
    the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.



    The teacher, who was not the pastor, then asked each student around the table what they thought of this creed. One expressed some reservation about Jesus “rising from the dead” and the part about “the resurrection of the body”, in that it implied that Christ arose with a body and that there will be a physical resurrection. Another did not believe the portion of the creed that indicated that Christ descended into hell. Another questioned how he could sit at the right hand of God if he was God.

    My wife and I were the last ones to speak. Both of us answered that we felt the creed reflected the biblical teachings of Christ and the Apostles correctly, and we believed in the creed 100%.

    My point is that many people “cling” to the different beliefs of Mormons from other Christian churches, while ignoring the fact that the core Mormons beliefs match the creeds of the early Christian church closer than the beliefs of their particular sect.

    Even the controversy about Mormon belief/disbelief in the Trinity is enlightening. Mormons believe in the Trinity, although not in same way as most other Christian sects teach the Trinity. Mormons believe that the three members of the Trinity can be referred to as one God, as they are one in purpose, and never vary from one another in thought. Indeed, Mormons believe that if you have seen Christ you have seen the Father, because they look, act, think, and do exactly alike. The only difference between the beliefs, which is entire exagerrated, is that most other Christian sects believe the three members of the Trinity are three manifestations of the same being. But if the three are separate beings but think, act, and do as One, isn’t the net result the same thing?

    There are many beliefs in different sects that outsiders could call “bizarre”, but at the core, Christians, including Mormons, believe the same basic things. Some examples of “bizaare things” that are either shared beliefs that Mormons have with other Christians, or are believed and taught by other sects, are:

    Transubstantiation – (not a Mormon belief)
    Virgin Birth – (a Mormon belief)
    Worship of Saints – (not a Mormon belief)
    Earth created in 6000 years – (most Mormons don’t believe, but no official Church stance)
    Infallibility of the Bible – (not a Mormon belief)
    Faith Healings – (a Mormon belief)
    Prophecy – (a Mormon belief)
    Speaking in Tongues – (a Mormon belief)
    Jesus casting evil spirits into Pigs – (a Mormon belief)

  • Jacob

    Mitt Romney says he believes in the faith of his fathers. Does he believe this?

    From Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62 (Mormon scripture), which says: If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

  • Jacob- That’s an extremely sorry excuse for a “gotcha” attack on Romney. Yes, the LDS used to support polygamy. Not that this is the worst religious tenet ever, but this was of course given up many years ago in any case.

    But it’s a particularly asinine thing to throw at Romney, as he (like apparently almost all Mormons) is unquestionably a devoted monogamous family man. There are a LOT more Baptists running around and humping everything than what you would find among the famously family oriented Mormons.

    In short, your question prima facie looks like a cheap bigoted attack, and not at all like a real question or legitimate argument against candidate Romney.

  • Martin

    Call Mormons “non-traditional christians.” Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements.

  • REMF

    Any religion which promotes plural wives (Brigham Young – 76 wives, Joseph Smith – 51 wives) can’t be all bad.

    Although I do have a problem with the fact that the Mormons didn’t permit African-Americans to be preachers until the late 1970s.

    And what’s the deal with that Mountain Meadows Massacre?

  • Jacob

    “I believe in my Mormon faith, and I endeavor to live by it. …”

    — Mitt Romney

    “And if he have ten virgins given unto him…”

    — Mormon Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-62…

    Why doesn’t Romney say “I don’t agree with the Doctrine?

    Romney’s record as governor or of Massachusetts shows he is a chameleon and an opportunist.

    Romney has a problem with being honest.

  • REMF

    “I mean, who died and left you in charge of deciding who’s a real Christian and not?”

    Umm, Jerry Falwell.

  • Jerry Falwell left you in charge? Well, Gene Scott left ME in charge, and my preacher can definitely beat up your preacher.

  • REMF

    “Call Mormons “non-traditional christians.” Its clear and will avoid pointless arguements.”

    Uh, no, it’s a cult.

  • Robert

    Jacob, if Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn’t he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith? It is by far the most conroversial aspect of his candidacy. Clearly he is a man of integrity and deep moral principles. These are two of the most valuable charactaristics we could ask for in a president.

  • Jacob

    “If Romney is a Chameleon and an opportunist why doesn’t he abandon or distance himself from his Mormon Faith?

    Romney believes voters won’t focus on what he did as governor of Massachusetts. That’s his gamble and he believes the MSM won’t report on it.

    If he did distance himself it would raise more questions about what Joseph Smith wrote..

  • REMF- You’re certainly welcome to take a hike with your “cult” nonsense. That’s just a smear word to describe millions of hard working, tax paying family people who mow their lawns and make good neighbors and worship at the church of their choice.

    I could and would just as easily describe whatever brand of snake oil you like as a “cult.” You and Jacob just have no just reason let alone any needful reason to be hating on Romney and Mormons. You’re surely not behaving in a very Christ like manner here.

  • Baronius

    See, Al, this is the problem we keep having on this thread. You say that criticizing Mormonism is un-Christian. Christ was loving, but He wasn’t always polite. If someone was wrong, Jesus would call him on it. Being Christian is a matter of both belief and behaviour.

    You could have written that Romney acts with greater decency and virtue. If you’d said that, we could have argued and been done with it. But by identifying Romney as more Christian, you opened a can of worms.

    A lot of agnostics and atheists on these boards complain about the religious beliefs of the people they vote for. Well, sometimes Christians feel that way too. I can vote for Romney for President, but not for priest-king. Don’t try to sell him as priest-king.

  • Baronius- How did you get that I’m selling Romney as a priest-king? In the first place, I’m not particularly trying to SELL Romney. I don’t intend to vote for him. I don’t say anything about looking to Mitt Romney for spiritual guidance – though it would be kinda nice to have a president that you could really recommend as a role model to young people.

    But that’s not saying that he’s particularly holy and certainly isn’t saying that he’s somehow closer to God than anyone else. But he certainly does look like a model Christian, especially compared to the minister who is running pretty much entirely based on his religious beliefs.

    To put it another way, I wouldn’t so much say that Romney would be particularly a priest-king, but that the Huckster definitely would not be one.

  • Baronius

    Perhaps that was too much rhetorical flourish. You do seem to be pro-Romney politically. And you’re holding him up as not only an example of virtue, but of Christian virtue. That’s hard to accept.

    Seriously, you’re not supporting Romney? I was sure you were.

  • Jacob

    In 2003, Romney as governor of Massachusetts put into effect an “Estate Recovery Act” which enabled the state to recover from the properties of Medicaid recipients outside of probate. This meant that financial planning contracts which had been relied on for many years were no longer valid, and assets outside of probate could be taken by the state. It took a Senate override to restore the validity of the contracts.

    What’s honest about abrogating contracts?

  • Baronius, I would certainly support Romney over Huckabee. We could do worse for a president. He’s an upright fellow, obviously has some real business and management skills besides just campaign talking, and he’s as sharp a tool as there is in the shed.

    I wrote in favor of Fred Thompson, who definitely has some good points. I sort of halfway lean to supporting Giuliani because he’s the guy who would likely be the least squeamish about killing our enemies, but I’m leery. But depending on tricks by the time things roll through Indiana, I may well vote for Ron Paul.

    I do usually like to vote for preachers when they’re on the ballot. I figure they might put in a little word with God for me. I voted for Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and Pat Robertson. But I can’t get stoned enough to think that voting for Huckabee would be fun.

  • Jacob

    Romney is a good venture capitalist. A good venture capitalist is good at making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

    A typical buyout provides millions, tens of millions, sometimes hundred of millions of dollars to investment bankers and lawyers.

    Look at what happened to RJR Nabisco. KKR borrowed billions to buy the company, then they broke it up and sold the pieces. Guess who got it in the neck? Hint: There were thousands of them.

    Having dealt with vulture capitalists, I wouldn’t trust any of them with my vote.

    Caveat Emptor.

  • Jacob- I don’t know a lot of the particulars about Romney’s business dealings, but I’ll assume for the sake of argument here that you are telling the basic facts correctly. In which case, your judgment is totally wrong and inappropriate, and Romney was highly commendable.

    His job as a businessman was not to provide welfare jobs that aren’t making the company money because the little people need them. His job is to return a profit on the investment of stockholders. If piecing out a company and firing unneeded workers is what the market called for to right the RJR ship, then that’s exactly what needed to be done. This would make money for the company and investors (Romney’s ethical commitment as a steward of other people’s money – and free up those downsized workers for more productive work.

    That’s how a free market economy is SUPPOSED to work, and that fluidity and striving for efficiency is a big part of what makes for a successful economy.

    Mitt Romney would have been derelict in his fiduciary responsibility if he didn’t do stuff like this.

  • Romney is a good venture capitalist. A good venture capitalist is good at making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

    Sorry, i just don’t see how venture capitalists make poor people poorer. They don’t have anything to do with poor people at all. Like any other businessmen they have a method by which they spend or invest money to make more money. Why is that a bad thing?

    You seem to have confused venture capitalists with corporate raiders. Not the same thing.


  • “Irene, it is no defense of Romney to point out what happens in Obama’s church, just a tactic to distract from the original point when the commentor has no answer.”

    Okay. Roughly 30 years ago, the church of Mitt Romney’s parent’s choice excluded Blacks from holding high offices. Not good, but they’ve long since rectified that, and Mitt Romney strongly approves of those reforms (see the Tim Russert interview…also, Romney’s dad marched with MLK Jr.).

    Today, the church of Barack Hussein Obama’s choice (his parents’ choice would have presumably been a mosque…) is seemingly proudly Black Nationalist. Nobody in the MSM seems to question this, which is interesting, especially since Barack Hussein Obama is half-White.

    Given those two choices, I’d choose Mitt Romney any day of the week. YMMV.

  • “And what’s the deal with that Mountain Meadows Massacre?”

    150 years ago. Therefore, utterly meaningless as far as the modern Mormon Church or Mitt Romney is concerned.

  • “Roughly 30 years ago, the church of Mitt Romney’s parent’s choice…”

    Nice try, but Romney was 31 in 1978 when that happened, so he spent plenty of time as an adult in the religion.

    “they’ve long since rectified that, and Mitt Romney strongly approves of those reforms”

    So what? He doesn’t get bonus points for being against racist policies. And if he really thought they were wrong, why did he accept them before the reforms?

    “also, Romney’s dad marched with MLK Jr.”

    Ha! Apparently you haven’t been paying attention. That statement has been clarified (aka spun) because it’s not true.

    On Wednesday, Romney’s campaign said his recollections of watching his father, an ardent civil rights supporter, march with King were meant to be figurative.

    “He was speaking figuratively, not literally,” Eric Fehrnstrom, spokesman for the Romney campaign, said of the candidate.

    The campaign was responding to questions raised by the Free Press and other media after a Boston publication challenged the accuracy of Mitt Romney’s account.

    The only reason I brought up the Mormon church’s ugly past was in response to Al’s comment “you’d be hard pressed to find the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life” because you wouldn’t be hard pressed if you actually looked. If lying counts as being improper, then another example from Romney’s life drop right into our lap.

    Whatever goes on with Obama doesn’t cancel out Romney’s problems.

  • Romney is a good venture capitalist.

    Jacob, your view of venture capitalists sounds like a description of a corporate raider, as Dave points out. There is a distinct difference between the two. And corporate raiders are nothing but vultures, as you point out.

    It may be that some venture capitalists act as corporate raiders to make a quick buck, but as I understand it, the standard vanilla venture capitalist provides money to someone without money to promote an idea that may make money – for a hefty share of the profit, if there is one.

    If you have a beef against vulture capitalists, I can easily understand. All they do is throw people out of work and lap up the cream. But someone who gives a fellow without money an opportunity to build a business? This is bad?

    If you don’t like Mitt Romney because you think he is a liar and a cheap opportunist, just come out and say so. If you don’t like Huckabee because he has the character of a used scumbag, just come out and say so.

    Does it really matter what flavor “Christian” they are? Who gives a rat’s ass?

    I would suggest that you can have an asshole in any religion – heck, we have Peres, Olmert and Livni dumping shit all over us, and they’re Jews. We even have big shot rabbis who have the characters of used scumbags. I’ll be charitable and not mention names.

    If you have the sense to look beyond a party label, judge a man on his character.

    And a note to Al: You may think that Jesus was a model to follow. You are of course entitled to that view. Some of us, reading you Book, beg to differ….

  • Bicho, puh-lease, making Romney out for a liar over the business with his dad and MLK. It’s not entirely certain whether he absolutely was in a march with MLK, but he certainly was active and vocal in the civil rights movement. Indeed, there’s apparently a quote somewhere with MLK saying that the senior Romney would be a good president. Perhaps “stood with” rather than “marched with” would have been a more careful turn of phrase, but if some bogus shit like this is the worst you can come up with, then Romney’s the squeakiest clean sonofagun to run for president in my lifetime.

    Ruvy- Divinity aside, what would be your beef with Jesus as a role model? You’re saying that he wasn’t simply not your promised messiah, but actually a bad person of weak character?

  • Ty

    1. I don’t know of any religion whose followers at some point in their history have not done something stupid in the name of that religion – Mormons included. (ie: the Crusades, Al Qaeda, the Inquisition, Salem Witch Trials, Mountain Meadows Massacre). So I think it is useful to leave those things out of this discussion.

    2. The Church Romney belongs to excommunicates any member who takes more than one wife, and has done this for more than 100 years.

    3. The bible teaches plainly that God has sanctioned righteous men to take more than one wife at times in history (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others). So apparently the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit.

  • Austin

    Ty is exactly right. And the only controversial Mormon question left to consider is pertaining to Blacks and the Priesthood.

    4. The Priesthood (ie: Power and authorithy to act in God’s name) has always been given selectively to God’s children. In the old Testament it was only given to the prophet. There was a period of time when among all of the 12 tribes of Israel it was given only to the Levites through Aaron and his sons. When Christ was on the earth he gave it only to his apostles.

    We are not about to discuss why God does this because no one knows the mind of God and no one knows why He does what He does. But who are we to question Him?

  • Jacob

    “The bible teaches plainly that God has sanctioned righteous men to take more than one wife at times in history (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others). So apparently the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit.”

    “ the God of Christians and the God of Mormons is a lot more similar than most people tend to admit”?


    Polygamy is not part of the New Testament Covenant which defines Christians. Polygamy was picked up centuries later by the Muslims. So the Mormons and the Muslims are the ones who are similar in that sense.

  • Don’t change the goal posts, Al. You wrote “the least hint of impropriety in anything Mitt Romney has ever done in life.” Not “the worst shit ever.”

    Besides, I never said Romney lying about his father marching with MLK was the worst shit. I had already pointed that out with his involvement in a racist religion, which you were noticeably silent on.

    I am hearing stories that the welcoming of African Americans into their flock was either God finally deciding in 1978 that blacks were equal to whites and informing the Mormon president, or the Mormon church was concerned about losing their tax-exempt status. Hmm, I know which I believe.

    It’s not bogus shit that Romney is a habitual liar about his resume in order to attract voters whether it be the NRA, being a hunter, and now lying about his father’s involvement with MLK. Don’t you find “the least hint of impropriety” in those tactics?

    The one good thing to come of this is Romney going to the Clinton handbook and claiming it depends on what the definition “saw” is. How laughable. Surely, honest conservatives will call him out like they did Clinton regarding what the definition of “is” is.

  • Jacob

    Mitt Romney’s Hypocrisy…

    1. China’s top refiner Sinopec will nearly triple its imports of Iranian crude next year.

    2. The Iranian government and China’s biggest offshore oil producer, CNOOC, have signed a $16 billion natural gas deal,

    3. LUKoil will sign a contract to give it a role in producing oil from Iran’s Azadegan field.

    What do Sinopec Corp, CNOOC, and LUKoil have to do with Mitt Romney?

    Romney makes a profit on these investments while he calls for others to disinvest

  • Bicho, nothing you’re showing me so far is looking like anything substantially bad from Romney. But OK, I’ll concede in advance that if we go over everything this guy has done in life with a fine tooth comb, you’d likely find one or two times where he’s overstated something or done something in business that looks bad. For all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God.

    I don’t know why you hate this guy so bad, though. What’s your problem?

  • Ruvy- Divinity aside, what would be your beef with Jesus as a role model? You’re saying that he wasn’t simply not your promised messiah, but actually a bad person of weak character?

    Ferget messiah. And ferget divinity!! All Jesus did, assuming he lived, was tell his friends (before he got executed by the Romans) to bring all those who wouldn’t follow him (or who would deny him – I forget the exact wording) before him to be slain.

    The rest of the writers of your Book left enough anti-Jewish slander in there to insure that all of Jesus’ co-religionists would be persecuted. And we have been for at least 1,700 years.

    As for miracles – go check out the story of Elisha. For the most part, everything that Elisha did was also credited to Jesus.

    Sorry to rain on the big Birthday celebration and all, but I don’t admire this babe. You can if you want, though. That’s your privilege.

  • Jacob

    “All Jesus did, assuming he lived, was tell his friends (before he got executed by the Romans) to bring all those who wouldn’t follow him (or who would deny him – I forget the exact wording) before him to be slain.”

    — Ruvy

    Where did you read that?

    BTW, if Jesus didn’t live, what makes you think that Elisha did?

  • Bicho, Jacob et al: Does this satisfy you as to George Romney’s involvement with MLK, or do you still want to keep bleating that his boy’s a “liar” –

    Romney website
    FACT: In The Summer Of 1963, Governor Romney Participated In Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Freedom Marches” In Grosse Pointe, Michigan.

    In 1963, George Romney Gave The Keynote Address At The Conference That Sparked The Martin Luther King “Freedom Marches” In Detroit. “The establishment of these human relations groups came in the wake of several major events (besides the embarrassing racist practices of such suburbs as Dearborn), which took place in 1963 and helped galvanize interracial support and cooperation for integrated housing. The first event was the Metropolitan Conference on Open Occupancy held in Detroit in January 1963. The second event was the Martin Luther King ‘Freedom’ March in June of the same year, the spinoffs of which were several Detroit NAACP-sponsored interracial marches into Detroit suburbs to dramatize the need for black housing. … Governor George Romney gave the keynote speech at this conference, in which he pledged to use the power of the state to achieve housing equality in Michigan.” (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)

    Governor Romney Marched In July 1963 In An NAACP-Sponsored March Through Grosse Pointe. “The next couple of NAACP marches into the suburbs were more pleasant. Both Grosse Pointe and Royal Oak Township welcomed the interracial marchers. Close to 500 black and white marchers, including many Grosse Pointers, marched in ‘the Pointes’ that July. Governor George Romney made a surprise appearance in his shirt sleeves and joined the parade leaders.” (Joe T. Darden, Detroit, Race And Uneven Development, 1987, p. 132)

    – Detroit Free Press: “With Gov. Romney a surprise arrival and marching in the front row, more than 500 Negroes and whites staged a peaceful antidiscrimination parade up Grosse Pointe’s Kercheval Avenue Saturday. … ‘the elimination of human inequalities and injustices is our urgent and critical domestic problem,’ the governor said. … [Detroit NAACP President Edward M.] Turner told reporters, ‘I think it is very significant that Governor Romney is here. We are very surprised.’ Romney said, ‘If they want me to lead the parade, I’ll be glad to.'” (“Romney Joins Protest March Of 500 In Grosse Pointe,” Detroit Free Press, 6/29/63)

    – In Their 1967 Book, Stephen Hess And David Broder Wrote That George Romney “Marched With Martin Luther King Through The Exclusive Grosse Point Suburb Of Detroit.” “He has marched with Martin Luther King through the exclusive Grosse Pointe suburb of Detroit and he is on record in support of full-coverage Federal open-housing legislation.” (Stephen Hess And David Broder, The Republican Establishment: The Present And Future Of The G.O.P., 1967, p. 107)

  • Jacob

    “Jacob… Does this satisfy you as to George Romney’s involvement with MLK, or do you still want to keep bleating that his boy’s a “liar”

    — Al Barger

    Why are you asking me? I never wrote a word about iMLK,

    Get your facts straight before YOU bleat.

  • Sorry Jacob, guess you’re on the “hypocrisy” and “not a Christian” beats. I get lost amidst all the different strains of Romney hating swirling around.

  • Jacob

    I don’t hate Romney. I just dislike hypocrisy. I also dislike fawning over a hypocrite.

  • handyguy

    As I’ve said before [and as Al conveniently continues to ignore], Romney exploited both sides of gay-rights issues before and after becoming governor. He didn’t just “change his mind” – he deliberately staked out politically advantageous positions that are near polar opposites. He’s 100% virgin acrylic.

    Here are a couple of choice bits from the well-publicized “anti-endorsement” from today’s Concord (NH) Monitor:

    If you followed only his tenure as governor of Massachusetts, you might imagine Romney as a pragmatic moderate with liberal positions on numerous social issues and an ability to work well with Democrats. If you followed only his campaign for president, you’d swear he was a red-meat conservative, pandering to the religious right, whatever the cost. Pay attention to both, and you’re left to wonder if there’s anything at all at his core.

    As a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 1994, he boasted that he would be a stronger advocate of gay rights than his opponent, Ted Kennedy. These days, he makes a point of his opposition to gay marriage and adoption.

  • Handyguy, it’s possible that he has flip-flopped on some gay issues. He’s certainly changed the tone of his rhetoric. Just recognizing professional necessity, I’ll cut any politician pretty much slack for a difference in tone or style.

    But for me to buy the charge of flip-flopping, I’ll need you to show me quotes or votes from pre-presidential Mitt that are directly in conflict with proposals he supports now. He was pro-gay in a general way and all, but did he ever in fact support gay marriage?

    I wouldn’t necessarily hold it that badly against him if he in fact changed his position on a couple of marginal governing issues like gay rights or stem cell research just on a basis of political expediency. That’s starting to get a little sleazy, and it can be a real slippery slope. But it’s not the worst thing in the world. Show me a direct policy contradiction though, and I’ll dock him a couple of points.

    What would be really bad flip flopping would be really and truly offering policy proposals as a presidential candidate exactly opposite of your record, especially on major issues of taxes and spending. For example, if you were a tax and spend governor who raised taxes and then ran for president claiming that you want to abolish income taxes altogether – THAT would be just saying anything to get elected. You just KNOW that guy is a lying sleazebag.

  • handyguy

    I’ll put into simpler terms for clarity’s sake:

    He posed as a moderate in the 1994 senatorial and 2002 gubernatorial elections. He poses now as the ‘real conservative’ among the leading contenders [meaning on social issues primarily, but also saying idiotic things such as that he’d like to double the size of Guantanamo].

    Was the previous Mitt real or is the current one? If you believe both are real, so be it. I find the notion laughable, and I tend to believe that neither is ‘real.’

  • Handyguy, so far I don’t see where Romney’s really changed that much in his actual positions on the issues, other than specifically abortion – not that I necessarily agree with any of his positions. But I don’t so far see what these big differences are between then and now.

    Of course, Romney was trying to make himself broadly sound more moderate to liberal in Massachusetts, but wishes to use more conservative rhetoric to express fairly similar programs when running nationally. How exactly is that bad? Is it illegitimate for a politician to try to make his proposals sound good to his voting constituency?

    Ya know, you Romney hatas are driving people to him. You know that don’t you? Especially because Romney is so obviously basically clean and above board and tries to play nice. Then y’all come in hatin’ on him. Does he represent some unresolved Oedipal dramas you be experiencing, or what?

    I didn’t really give a rat’s ass about Romney when I wrote this. He was mostly meant here to be a point of contrast to help me explain why I so disapprove of Huckabee. But the more you hate on this nice fellow with little legitimate reason, the more sympathetic I become to the idea of an Osmond family president.

    I’d definitely rather see their somewhat bland but healthy and wholesome presence every day than four more years of the Clinton marital psychodrama. Is it really that fascinating to merit a sequel? The most likely seeming fall matchup at this point seems to be Clinton vs Romney. Would we vote for the Osmonds or Bill & Hill’s trailer park relationship, part 2?

  • Jacob

    “Of course, Romney was trying to make himself broadly sound more moderate to liberal in Massachusetts, but wishes to use more conservative rhetoric to express fairly similar programs when running nationally. How exactly is that bad?”

    It’s bad because it’s hypocritical.

    Romney is an opportunist.

  • “nothing you’re showing me so far is looking like anything substantially bad from Romney.”

    Really? If you don’t think being a member of a religion that finds one race not equal to another is bad, then there’s not much point in continuing the discussion. I had thought it was either laziness in your research or dishonesty, but apparently you agree with the sentiment.

    I will again note that you have mischaracterized my statements, so I am not clear if you are a liar yourself or have poor reading comprehension. I never said George Romney was not involved in civil rights. I said that Mitt lied when he said he saw his father march with MLK.

    The only evidence you cite that proves it happened is a book written four years after the fact, but King never marched in Grosse Pointe, according to the Grosse Pointe Historical Society, and had not appeared in the town at all at the time the Broder book was published. “I’m quite certain of that,” says Suzy Berschback, curator of the Grosse Pointe Historical Society. You probably shouldn’t trust the website of a liar.

    By the way, I don’t hate Romney for being a racist and a liar. That’s as flawed as the rest of your analysis. To quote Mr. T, “I pity the fool.”

  • Jacob

    The fact that Mike Huckabee, recently gave the Sunday sermon at a San Antonio mega-church led by the pastor John Hagee, a rabidly pro-war religious leader who has long been advocating a preemptive war against Iran, should be enough to cause anyone with a modicum of brain tissue to take their support of Huckabee elsewhere.

    Vote for Huckabee and you might get Secretary of Defense John Hagee.

    Then you will yearn for the good old days of George W. Bush.

  • Jacob- Now you’re starting to make Huckabee sound good. I could do without Hagee’s Catholic bashing, but the part of him being a superhawk tends to slightly make Huckabee sound better to me by positive association. One of the main policy type differences I would have with Huckabee is his foreign policy.

    Besides the fact that he has no experience in international affairs, his general approach seems to be mostly to try to sound like Jimmy Carter. He wants to be a peacemaker with a humble foreign policy and all that other FAG nonsense. But if I started thinking that President Huckabee might act like a proper crazy backwoods apocalyptic preacher ready to go all Old Testament on some deserving Muslim-Arab schmucks, that’d cause me to look at him more favorably. I bet Elmer Gantry could have preached hellfire and brimstone to some mullahs and put the fear of the One True God (Yahweh) into their heathen souls.

  • Yo, Brother Bicho- What’s with all that hostility there brother? And on Christmas Eve at that. You need to get you some fiber right away, or you’re not going to get a visit from Mr Hankey.

    No, sorry, but I’m not really going to wet my pants in outrage that the church Romney grew up in didn’t used to want to play with the black folks. It’s not like they were lynching black folks, like a lot of good Southern Baptists were. Not wanting to let the black kids play with them was a less than impressive aspect of early Mormonism, but not the worst abuse ever committed by an American religious group.

    And that surely wasn’t Mitt Romney’s doing. George Romney led civil rights marches supporting MLK, from which I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to say that Dad walked with MLK. He certainly did participate in MLK’s movement and walked in support of him – whether they managed to actually walk in the same specific march or not – which he might well have.

    So apparently the Romney family didn’t like that bad racial thing about their church, and worked around it personally, and were obviously glad when God gave their church a revelation, or however exactly that goes.

    Also sorta sounds like Romney senior would have been using his clout and influence to convince God to give his church better guidance. Something like that. I just know that the Romney family has no reputation for being anything but sympathetic and supportive of black folk, regardless of the personal prejudices of Joseph Smith.

    If we’re supposed to be SO sensitive about saying anything positive about someone who has a religion that even used to be racist, does that apply across the board? Would a Muslim be out of the question, on account of, you know, wanting to kill Jews and other infidels? Of course the Old Testament had God promoting a whole lot of killing based strictly on race and ethnicity, ie wipe out every man, woman and child in this city, so sayeth Yahweh.

    So would Christians and Jews automatically be outside the pale along with Mormons?

    Does this lack of outrage prove something bad about me to not be worth talking to? I mean, I must be stupid or a liar to not be mad about whatever you think is so awful.

    But I still don’t think you and Jacob are so particularly distressed by any supposed offensive action, but by some weird malicious hatred for the guy. What in God’s green Earth did Mitt Romney ever do that was bad enough to earn this ridiculous animosity?

  • Jacob

    John Hagee is advocating a preemptive war against Iran which the last time I checked is not Arab.

    But it appears that facts don’t interfere with what you write.

  • Jacob

    But I still don’t think you and Jacob are so particularly distressed…

    Your only phrase that makes any sense here is — “I still don’t think.”

  • Jacob- Do you really think that you’re proving anything with this mindless hostility? Do you think that any of your hatin’ constitutes any form of civic discourse, or that it would cause anyone to change their thinking about who to support for president? And absolutely on Christmas morning at that.

  • Civic discourse? You guys are talking about urban issues? Or is it that you’re talking about Japanese cars?


  • bliffle

    Are we now imposing a religious test on candidates for office? Isn’t that forbidden someplace?

  • Bliffle, a couple of these cats seem to be bent on beating up Romney for being a Mormon. Still, I find it hard to believe that they’re quite that crazed over the Osmond religion. They generally seem to be one of the top American religious communities that tends to work and play well with others. Seems like there’s got to be some other reason why they’re so hateful with Romney.

    They might’s well get over it, cause I suspect that Romney’s in fact going to be the next president. I suspect that the editors of the Concord Monitor are thinking the same thing.

  • bliffle

    It’s also been my personal experience that mormons are fine members of society, honest and trustworthy.

    But didn’t Romney say “…you have to have religion to have freedom”?

  • Jacob

    There is nothing religious about the choice between Romney and Huckabee.

    Romney is a hypocrite and an opportunist. He will say anything to get elected,

    Huckabee associates with a demagogue like Hagee who wants to start a preemptive war with Iran.

    Anyone who wants either one as president can take their pick.

    Just stop whining.

  • Bliffle, Romney traveled in the basic bromide that’s been on a lot of lips since the founding of the republic about needing general godliness in our government- and went out of his way to individually praise most all of the main faiths. Some crybaby atheists got all huffy because he didn’t specifically say anything affirming their merits, or something like that.

    But Romney also said very clearly when asked about it by Tim Russert that OF COURSE there are plenty of atheists who are good, moral people, and that religious belief or lack of it was not a job consideration.

    In short, neither Mitt Romney nor his father before him have ever been known to engage in bigotry or traffic in hatefulness to get elected. These Romney’s look like some of the cleanest and nicest players in the big leagues, so far as I’ve seen.

    Now, how much I might agree with his policies might be a very different question, but he seems squeaky clean and thoroughly vetted on a personal level. From the point of view of frustrating the Clinton attack machine in the fall, surely Mitt would be about the toughest Republican to dirty up. This guy’s just not going to give them much sleaze to work with.

  • Winghunter

    Well, Al sure got the Hucksters number down pat BUT, he doesn’t have the first clue who Romney is at all. The build-up of Willard Romney he gave made the skin on my back crawl.

    After you read these, yours will also. Candidate Research – Take The Search Out of Research.

  • Winghunter, your allergic reactions sound rough. Perhaps you could get some kind of skin cream. However, they do not constitute evidence of wrongdoing from Romney.

    Perhaps you could break it down more specifically. Give us one specific disreputable thing that he’s done – not some vague generality about supposedly being willing to say anything. Here’s a bill that he supported in the legislature, here’s where he ripped off a pension fund – something specific.

    You don’t need to get everything at once. Just show me some specific significantly disreputable thing that he’s done, and I’ll start marking him down some.

    Again, I don’t necessarily support his policies and have no particular intention of voting for him. But he surely looks like one of the most scrupulous and unassailable people you could ask for on a personal level. Show me where I’m wrong.

  • R.C.

    Well, truly, Huckabee is unethical, sleazy, a bit dim, and a bit of a demagogue. Well, that’s Arkansas politics for you.

    Nevertheless, Romney’s not quite my candidate either. His tale of conversion to the conservative view on various conservative issues rings false to me, and a Johnny-Come-Lately, while better than an economic liberal like Huckabee, is nevertheless less than ideal.

    I’m voting for Fred Thompson. Not that I think he’ll get the nomination. He came in too casually, and he doesn’t lust for the power of the presidency with that fervent half-crazed ambition which marks Huckabee or McCain, or the kind of shrewd calculation which marks Romney. (To me, the fact that he lacks THAT kind of “fire in the belly” is a plus…but the Mainstream Media disagrees, and as we all know, it’s easier to recover from BAD coverage than NO coverage!)

    But I prefer Fred over Mitt or Rudy or John or Mike or Ron because he’s a long-time conservative; his only variation from conservative principles has to do with his non-support for a pro-life amendment, but his reason for not supporting it is…federalism, which is ANOTHER conservative principle. I prefer a guy who wanders off the reservation because of allegiance to another part of the reservation, over guys who only wandered on to the reservation when it became politically expedient.

    And, unlike Al Gore and Hillary, you get the sense that if Fred were to win the nomination, but NOT win the presidency, he wouldn’t go slightly insane. It’s not a part of how he defines himself; it’s not his lifelong ambition. I think Huck and McCain lean that direction. Al Gore certainly went ’round the bend after he lost. Remember the beard and hot-tub thing? (Shudder!)

    So in short, Fred’s a craggy old guy who’d make a better candidate if he had some of Romney’s looks and some of McCain’s fire. But those are the best downsides to be found in a GOP field full of imperfect candidates. If we could play Mr. Potato Head with the candidates, I’d say it’s Fred who lacks the most parts. So he gets my (probably pointless) vote.

  • R.C.

    I meant to say, at the end of my note, “…lacks the LEAST parts.”

    Yeesh. You type an otherwise decent post, and blow it in the next-to-last sentence. Argh.

    Anyway, I think you folks probably knew what I was trying to say.

  • RC- On policy substance, I’m inclined to favor Thompson the most – though that vote for McCain-Feingold is a significant black mark, and a direct contradiction of his FREDeralism. But almost as important as policy, I double-plus agree with your positive take on Fred Thompson’s lack of burning personal need to be president. He definitely seems like the major contender (other than Ron Paul) distinctly least anxious to boss people around.

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy in #131: Reading something from “the devil’s advocate” position might make for a more robust presentation of the Jewish Understanding of Messiah. I stop into BC from time to time to see if you’ve written that article yet!

    I haven’t forgotten about what happened to your family during the Holocaust. I would’ve quit being a Christian long ago if I didn’t understand the distinction between Christ and Christians. One is Perfection. The others are at best works in progress. At worst they are malicious imposters, the “Christian” moral equivalent of the “Jews” I’ve heard you describe in other posts as “kikes.”

    Even during this Christmas season, I feel soured about American Christianity–but not about Jesus. Ron Paul recently repeated a prophecy, attributed to Sinclair Lewis: “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.” American Christians have a right and duty to participate in the political process. As soon as the motivation for that participation shifts from “service” to “will to power,” however, they’ve stopped following Christ and have, perhaps unwittingly, through the deception from “wolves in sheep’s clothing” become disciples of Nietzsche.

  • Jacob

    “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”

    Fascism has come to America in the form of the neoconservatives.

    But I don’t see Norman Podhoretz carrying a cross.

  • Irene,

    Messianic Redemption has nothing to do with “individual salvation” which is the hallmark of Christianity. In addition, it has little to do with the Book of Revelation. Messianic Redemption is simply when the messiah shows up, fights the necessary wars to get us Children of Israel out of the shit-sling we’ve stuck ourselves in, and sets up a confrontation between G-d and the armies of the nations.

    And the battle is not fought at Mt. Megiddo, it is fought south of the Walled City of Jerusalem, in the Valley of G-d’s Judgment ‘Émeq Yehoshafát.

    How fast all these events occur is not clear from the prophetic text, but from some of the things I’ve seen, they occur relatively quickly.

    After this occurs, the messiah (or maybe G-d) puts the yétzer har’á “the evil inclination”, beyond the reach of humans. This is when the process of judgment begins, and when the process of repairing the world also begins.

    If you are indeed a good person, you will merit seeing Redemption happen in front of you. The events of the next little while will be as scary as all hell, and only an open mind expecting the unexpected, and your own love of G-d, will keep you sane. As I may have mentioned to you, at some point you will doubt Christianity. Just hold on to the Seven Commandments of Noah, and you’ll be alright.

  • Jacob

    “How fast all these events occur is not clear from the prophetic text…”

    What also is not clear is — why have there been no prophets since Hanani?

  • No prophets since Hanani other than Joseph Smith, you mean?

  • Jacob

    Joseph Smith… the guy who liked teen-age girls?

  • Clavos

    “Joseph Smith… the guy who liked teen-age girls?”

    Cute, but ignores the fact that Joseph Smith lived in the 19th century, an era when adolescence was the age when most girls got married, often as young as thirteen and fourteen.

    It was the standard of the day, so Joseph Smith was conventional in the context of his era.

    I’ve noticed your propensity for ignoring context on other threads, too.

  • Jacob


    It was not considered proper in 1840’s America for a foster father to secretly have sex with his teenage foster daughters – and Joseph Smith did that twice with both the Lawrence and Partridge sisters. It was not considered proper for a self-proclaimed religious pastor to secretly have sex with his housemaids. It was not considered proper for anyone, let alone a “prophet” who had publicly banned polygamy in his church charter, to secretly proposition other men’s wives, even telling them that unless he could “marry” (have intercourse with) them, that an angel would murder him. It was not considered proper for any man to slander women who rejected his sexual advances, as Joseph did with Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt. It was not considered proper for any 38 year old to secretly have sex with a fourteen year old, and in so doing, consign her to a life of loneliness. The truth is, according to the standards of the time, Joseph’s character must be – and was – regarded by most as nothing short of loathsome.

  • Irene Wagner

    Jacob: Podhoretz carrying a cross, no, I can’t picture it either.
    Gary Bauer, Dan Qualye, William Bennet and Jeb Bush carrying a cross, that I CAN see, and I bet you can, too.
    Scroll to the bottom of The Statement of Principle for PNAC (Project for a New American Century) and see who signed on to this manifesto of neoconservatism with Podhoretz.

    And don’t get Ruvy (a Jew) in Jerusalem started on Podhoretz. I doubt he’s much of a fan of him either!

    Ruvy– I’ve probably broken all Seven of them, in spirit if not in actual letter, and I know myself too well to say it won’t happen again. I need a Saviour. 🙂 Thanks for your views on eschatology. It’s an interesting topic. Well, later folks.

  • Jacob

    “Gary Bauer, Dan Qualye, William Bennet and Jeb Bush carrying a cross, that I CAN see, and I bet you can, too.”

    No, I can’t.

    Not unless it’s a cross of gold…. which could be transferred into their personal bank accounts.

  • Jacob sez: “Joseph Smith… the guy who liked teen-age girls?”

    You say that as if that were a BAD thing.

  • Jacob

    The question Al Barger raises is whether he is secretly having sex with his teenage foster daughters.

  • Irene Wagner

    Yes, Jacob, but for a singnificant segment of the voting population, a cross is a cross–the composition isn’t even a consideration. It certainly wasn’t for uber-Fundy Bob Jones III when he decided to back LDS Mitt Romney, nor is it one for Christians who have blindly swallowed neoconservative idealogy solely because kingpins of the Christian Religious Right e.g. Gary Bauer, were its promoters.

    I don’t know if by your statement, “I can’t see Norman Podhoretz carrying a cross” you meant to suggest that Jews are solely responsible for getting neoconservativism adopted as American foreign policy, and I’m sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

    Fact is, too many people really DO believe that about Jews and neoconservativism. Not only is this belief inaccurate, the people who have noised it abroad are playing into the hands of those who would try to silence, through accusations of anti-Semitism, those who would attempt to expose the errors of neoconservatism.

  • Irene Wagner

    Hark, I sense a comment editor approaching. FYI Chris—I got a couple of technical errors when I posted the first one, so, thinking it hadn’t taken, I posted it again after taking out the third set of HTML markups. I don’t know what caused the third posting. Sorry about that.

  • Jacob

    Irene —

    Fact is, about half the signers of the PNAC appear to be Jews. I don’t know if they are — but why does it bother you?

    If the other half of the PNAC neoconservatives are “Christian”, are you saying it is anti-Christian to point that out?

  • Brother Jacob wishes to accuse me of perverted sexual proclivities. Not that I would necessarily deny such a thing, but there does seem to be something rather more unhealthy in his apparently rather detailed interest in the supposed love life of some dude from 150 years ago.

    I don’t wish to condemn anyone’s academic interests, but perhaps it would be healthier for Jacob to get some rather than worrying himself about the moral lapses of long dead prophets.

    By the way, I’ll note that a lot of Biblical heroes and prophets had far worse histories. You could start with King David purposely sending a man absolutely to his death so he could do the widow. On that scale, Joseph Smith would not particularly be among the worst of the Christian prophets.

  • Jacob

    OK — So Al Barger like teen-age girls and he says it’s not a BAD thing.

    But he avoids the issue of whether he is secretly having sex with his teenage foster daughters.

  • Jacob

    BTW — Go back and read #166.

  • Lumpy

    For the record the jews in PNAC are mostly non observant jews or outri

  • Jacob: There is a more than slight possibility that Mr Barger is getting a rise out of you – something to which you appear utterly oblivious.

    However, since you’ve amply demonstrated that you’re not shy of making a fool of yourself in public, please do carry on.

    Al: I’m sure it’s fun, but it is rather unfair – like a cat playing with a mouse…

  • Jacob

    Looks like dr dreadfool also likes teen age girls.

  • Irene Wagner

    Jacob in #174: I’m sitting here laughing. You are telling me I said just the opposite of what I said. It’s not the PNAC Jews (who are largely nonobservant, as Lumpy pointed out) by whom I feel betrayed, or at least misrepresented. It’s the PNAC Christians.

    Speaking of teenage girls, you are manifesting the irrational conversational transitions and peevishness of a young woman who is about to…never mind.I suggest you get yourself a hot water bottle for that crampy abdomen and go have a little nap!

  • Jacob

    Irene — I’m sorry I popped your bubble about Jew and Christian neo-conservatives — but it’s great that you can sit there and laugh about it.

    And speaking of teenage girls, Joseph Smith was ahead of his time. He would feel more than welcome in today’s culture.

  • Jacob, how nice of you to so promptly demonstrate my hypothesis in para 2 of my comment #179.

  • Irene Wagner

    Jacob, all kidding aside now, are you feeling OK? You seem a little sped up, here and on other threads. I get that way sometimes when I’ve not had enough sleep. Not being snarky, just a little concerned actually.

  • Jacob

    Dr dreadfool — What you call your ‘hypothesis’ is nothing more than your emotional conjecture.

    Please learn how to deal with facts.

    Your emotional reactions could be humorous but come up short.

    Keep trying…

  • Jacob

    Irene — I’ll tell you what I told dr dreadfool…

    Please learn how to deal with facts.

    You say you get this way when you’ve not had enough sleep?

    Please get some rest.

    You’ll feel better tomorrow.

  • Jacob

    As Joe Friday, when confronted with excited witnesses and hysterical victims would say, “Just give us the facts. Just the facts.”

  • Irene Wagner

    No, Jake, it’s too early to go to sleep here. I plan to pass out some Ron Paul door hangers, and then take my daughter out to see “Sleepless in Seattle” at a coffehouse. Then it’ll probably be time to think about turning in. You’re right, a good night’s sleep often does wonders–but sometimes sleep can be pretty dang elusive, and then all sorts of trouble can start brewing.

    I wasn’t trying to be insulting, Jake, just helpful. It’s hard to tell what’s going on with people solely by observing their behavior online.
    Maybe you should call some relatives, or ask a friend over. If they think you should head over to the ER for a checkup, don’t fight them. They’re probably only trying to be helpful, too.

  • Jacob,

    You are making a goddamned fool of yourself and pretty much everyone on BC besides you can see it plainly. It’d be sad if it wasn’t so funny.

    Furthermore, it appears that you now believe anyone who disagrees with you is a pedophile.

    You’d probably have been at the front of the crowd in Salem, MA in 1692 yelling, “Witch!”

  • Jacob

    Dr dreadfool — It appears that you are the one who wants anyone who disagrees with me to be considered a pedophile.

    It’s coming out of your posts. You are the one with the problem.

    It could be that you didn’t like my responses to you and this is your best retort. Or it could be simple hysteria.

    If you want to be credible — provide facts — not innuendo.

  • Irene Wagner

    You’re either ill, Jacob, or pretending to be.
    Either way, I can’t talk to you anymore. I don’t know how to help you other than to suggest you start here.

  • Irene Wagner

    Sorry, Jake. Not there. Here.

  • Jacob

    According to dr dreadfool — “Furthermore, it appears that you now believe anyone who disagrees with you is a pedophile.”

    “it appears that you now believe…”

    Nice try.

    I commented to those who admitted or supported “it’s not a BAD thing to like teen age girls.”

    If that gives you thoughts of being a pedophile — you do have a problem.

  • Jacob

    Irene — “You’re either ill, Jacob, or pretending to be. Either way, I can’t talk to you anymore.”

    I can still talk — so I cannot be the one who is ill.

    Get some rest — in the morning re-read the posts and see if you feel better after discarding the innuendo, conjecture and emotional diatribes.

  • Now Brother Jacob, ya needs to PLAY NICE. Do you really just get off purely on the displays of hostility? Have the holidays given you the blues, sad and mad because you’ve got no friends? You know, people would like you better if you’d just be friendlier. Then they might invite you to join in their reindeer games, like a real little boy.

  • STM

    Irene, if it makes you feel any better, you are not the first poster on these threads to find dealing with Jacob a tad more than exasperating.

  • Jacob

    I was expecting the guy who I used to think was full of clay…

    You’re late.

  • Jacob

    Al — “displays of hostility?”


    Just measured responses.

  • Irene: I plan to pass out some Ron Paul door hangers

    Door hangers, eh?

    Do they say “Do Not Disturb’ on one side and ‘Please Leave Ron Paul in My Room’ on the other?

    Sorry – couldn’t resist…!

  • Irene Wagner

    Dr. Dreadful, sorry for not responding sooner, but…I was passing out Ron Paul door hangers!

    What a GREAT evening—clear, chilly, starry sky, the Christmas lights were on all over the neighborhood, I must have passed out a hundred door hangers, AND I was listening to FM radio over my cell phone and GUESS WHAT came on? NPR’s “On Point” call-in show with an interview with Ron Paul! ‘Twas perfect.

    OK very funny. 😛 This is what the door hangers REALLY said.

    On one side is printed: “Ron Paul 2008 Hope for America…In the words of former Treasury Secretary William Simon, Dr. Paul is the “one exception to the gang of 535″ on Capitol Hill…has served on the House Banking committee, he is a strong advocate for sound monetary policy…used his House seat to actively promote the return of government to its proper constitutional levels…”

    Other side: “…He voted against the Iraq war. He voted against the Patriot Act. He has never voted to raise taxes. He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch. He has never voted to raise Congressional pay. He has never taken a government-paid junket. He does not participate in the lucrative Congressional pension program. He returns a portion of his annual Congressional office budget to the U.S. Treasury every year…”

    There are also three very handsome (or “presidential”) pictures of Dr. Paul on the door hanger. I think you should order up a bunch, Dr. Dreadful.

    STM – I think the situation has deteriorated over the last few days. Hope everything turns out well for him. Happy New Year!

    Al Barger–thanks for putting together the Gospel music collection. I have the link and hope to enjoy it soon.

    OK see y’all later.

  • For the record the Jews in PNAC are mostly non-observant Jews or outright non-believers.

    The non-believers with the Jewish names are nothing but court Jews who think that by kissing the ass of the Protestant oil and banking establishment that really runs America, they will get brownie points. Their brown noses have gotten them little. Wolfowitz was made president of the World Bank and got crucified. Stan Fisher got shipped of to be the president of the Bank of Israel (what a dinky assignment for a guy who should be enjoying 9 on the links and his grandkids!) to make sure that our wallets were reliant on the damned dollar.

    The boys in the establishment are happy to have them there. When the shit hits the fan in your country, as it is presently, they will be like dolls in the breakfront for the mob (people who think like Jacob) to throw rocks at.

    The court Jews of today have the same problem their predecessors (from Joseph to the Rothchilds) have had. They could never tell the difference between a manager and an owner. The court Jews are mere managers. The Protestants are the owners.

    There is a reason n we Jews invented the word “WASP”, folks. Not all of us are stupid court Jews.

  • Oh, yeah. Just to remind you all. Not all of us have been so stupid to buy into the sour nightmare that was the American dream by selling our identity and sacred heritage for an SUV and a fancy house.

    Regards from Samaria, and have a good week.

  • REMF

    “It was the standard of the day, so Joseph Smith was conventional in the context of his era.”
    – Clavos

    So were 51 fucking wives also conventional in the context of his era?

  • REMF

    “150 years ago. Therefore, utterly meaningless as far as the modern Mormon Church or Mitt Romney is concerned.”
    – RJ Elliott

    Utter horseshit. I don’t care if it was 1500 years ago, Elliott. Any religion claiming to be “the true church” will be held eternally responsible for the slaughter of dozens innocent women and children.

  • Clavos

    “Any religion claiming to be “the true church…”

    …In other words, all of them.

    …will be held eternally responsible for the slaughter of dozens innocent women and children.

    …Again, all of them, and they’ve killed them in the hundreds of thousands, not “dozens.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more; unfortunately, no religion ever has been, nor is ever likely to be held responsible by anyone, especially not the mythical “god’ they all pray to.

  • Go to the menu above left, click BC Foroms, click General/politics/2008 presidential poll-who would you vote for?

  • Never mind, I just noticed it’s gone! What gives????????????????

  • A poll for who you’d vote for as President is being run on BCs Forum page. To add your voice click here

  • “Any religion claiming to be “the true church” will be held eternally responsible for the slaughter of dozens innocent women and children.”

    Well, then all religions deserve to be held “eternally responsible” for the crimes that have been committed by their believers. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. all have committed horrible crimes in the name of their religion at some point in the past (or present day).

    You don’t even have a real argument here. You just apparently hate Mormons. (Or maybe just Mitt Romney.)

  • REMF

    “The Mountain Meadows massacre involved a mass slaughter of the Fancher-Baker emigrant wagon train at Mountain Meadows in Utah Territory by Mormon militia in September 1857. It began as an attack, quickly turned into a siege and eventually culminated on September 11, 1857, in the execution of the unarmed emigrants after their surrender.

    The Arkansas emigrants were traveling to California shortly before the Utah War started. Mormons throughout the Utah Territory had been mustered to fight the United States Army, which they believed was intended to destroy them as a people.

    The emigrants stopped to rest and regroup their approximately 800 head of cattle at Mountain Meadows, a valley within the Iron County Military District of the Nauvoo Legion.

    Initially intending to orchestrate an Indian massacre, two men with leadership roles in local military, church and government organizations, Isaac C. Haight and John D. Lee, conspired for Lee to lead militiamen disguised as Native Americans along with a contingent of Paiute tribesmen in an attack. The emigrants fought back and a siege ensued. Intending to leave no witnesses of Mormon complicity in the siege and avoid reprisals complicating the Utah War, militiamen induced the emigrants to surrender and give up their weapons. After escorting the emigrants out of their fortification, the militiamen and their tribesmen auxiliaries executed approximately 120 men, women and children.”

    (from Wikipedia)

  • REMF

    Looks like Dr. Dreadful and Jacob are doing their impression of Moe and Curly taking turns hitting each other over the head…

  • Jacob

    All I did was kick him in the ass.

  • All you did was sail dangerously close to slander, both against Al and myself. You’re not Daryl D’s evil twin, are you?

    I might add the observation (and this applies to most of your comments, Jacob) that it’s rather hard to kick someone in the ass with a boot that only exists in your fevered imagination.

    REMF, you’re several days late. That last whack over the head from Moe Clavos must have put you in a temporary coma…

  • Back to the reason I dropped into this thread again:

    Al, you’re onto something with Huckabee, that’s for sure. For instance, the absolute gall he exhibited today trying to pass himself off as a man of integrity by saying he won’t be running an ad accusing Romney of dishonesty… then showing it to reporters anyway.

    Lovely fellow.

  • Jacob

    Now, Now, boys — all that’s allowed here is ass-kicking.

  • So would Christians and Jews automatically be outside the pale along with Mormons?

    I don’t think it will ever happen, but if Romney is elected as chief greyhound is your doggy race, it will be educational on a gut level for big-time Christian preachers in your country to be called “gentile” by a putative president Romney. You would all get a small dose of what being Jewish has been like in exile for so many centuries.

  • Jacob

    Anthony Circosta, a decorated Iraq War veteran from Massachusetts, needed a gun permit to get a promotion at his security job and to pursue a possible career as a police officer. But first he needed to have his record cleared of a childhood felony – shooting a classmate in the shoulder with a BB gun when he was 13.

    In 2004, Circosta’s Army National Guard unit was deployed to Iraq, where he spent a year as a combat medic. He was promoted to first lieutenant and was awarded the Bronze Star for meritorious service.

    The Massachusetts clemency board investigated Circosta’s case and twice recommended pardoning him. But then-Governor Mitt Romney refused, preserving a record of rejecting every clemency request that crossed his desk.


    Romney wants his clemency record to be as neat as his hair.

  • Jacob

    When Republican presidential candidates were asked to cite their biggest mistake, Romney replied: “Probably from a political standpoint and a personal standpoint, the greatest mistake was when I first ran for office, being deeply opposed to abortion but saying, ‘I support the current law,’ which was pro-choice and effectively a pro-choice position. That was just wrong.”

    The truth is, when Romney ran for office in Massachusetts he went far beyond saying, “I support the current law.” He begged voters to accept him as an embracer of abortion rights. He said, “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal.”

    Romney campaigned for governor in 2002, as a pro-choice candidate. Romney knew that in Massachusetts a Republican had no chance of being elected governor without appearing liberal, so he responded to the National Abortion Rights Action League’s candidate survey with the statement, “I respect and will protect a woman’s right to choose. This choice is a deeply personal one. Women should be free to choose based on their own beliefs, not mine and not the government’s.”

    The issue now is not abortion, it’s honesty.

    Romney could win the GOP nomination.

    And if Romney is ever elected president, the voters will get what they deserve.

    A proven liar who puts power above ethics.

    Just what the country needs.

  • “All Jesus did, assuming he lived, was tell his friends (before he got executed by the Romans) to bring all those who wouldn’t follow him (or who would deny him – I forget the exact wording) before him to be slain.”

    — Ruvy

    Where did you read that?

    Jacob, I found it in the Book of Luke, 19:27.

    It’s always fun to see exactly the character of a fellow so many call a god. Christians raise this guy somewhat too high for my tastes. No man is perfect, and this man showed himself to be bloodthirsty enough; he got paid back on several levels….

    Of course, his followers paid us back on several levels for a millennia and two thirds….

  • Ruvy, you’re taking the verse out of context.

    Read the Parable of the Minas again, here. Take careful note, in 19:27, of the position of the closing single quotation mark…

  • Clavos

    “Take careful note, in 19:27, of the position of the closing single quotation mark…”

    As well as the opening double quotes
    in 19:11, which is the beginning of Jesus’ speech.

    Doc’s right, Ruvy…

  • Re: Luke 19:11-27. So, all of this is some dumb story? Apparently I did misread the text. Fortunately, it wasn’t all in Greek! It’s nice to see the preacher wasn’t as murderous as appeared – but did his followers have to be, subsequently?

    It gives them even less of an excuse and makes Christian Jew-hatred even less excusable than it already is….

  • And are you sure that in this parable, Jesus is not himself really the king mentioned? If so, then the meaning I ascribed to Luke 19:27 in the first place, stands.

  • REMF

    “150 years ago. Therefore, utterly meaningless as far as the modern Mormon Church or Mitt Romney is concerned.”
    – RJ Elliott

    So any explanation for why the Mormon Church has continuously denied – to this day – the involvement of both the Church and Brigham Young with the Massacre?