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Making Money “Curing” Homosexuals

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I’ve long known that the so-called “ex-gay” movement is a sham. I’ve heard of supposedly “ex-gay” folk being discovered in gay bars, cruising for dates. As Pam Spaulding at Pandagon wrote,

How many gays and lesbians, desperate to avoid being ostracized from their fundamentalist families, seek out bogus outfits like Exodus International and Love in Action. The organizations promote “reparative” or “reorientation” therapy prey on the poor souls that turn to them, hoping the gay can be chased away. Using a combination of prayer and ludicrous exercises, the aim is to help homos in crisis “attain the goal of reaching their heterosexual potential.”

Spaulding includes a bog-full of nasty Freeper quotes with Freepers doing what they do best – spewing bile.

The American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in 1973. In the APA’s statement on Uses of Diagnoses “Homosexual” and “Ego-Dystonic Homosexuality”, it says “homosexuality implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities”. The APA has specifically urged its members “not to use the “302.0 Homosexuality” diagnosis in the current ICD-9-CM or the “302.00 Ego-dystonic Homosexuality” diagnosis in the current DSM-III or future editions of either document.” Psychologists and other therapists such as those in the ex-gay movement who seek to “cure” homosexuals violate APA standards.

Spaulding described the recent conference of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH). The conference was packed with “more than 1,000 therapists, sociologists, and psychoanalysts who believe homosexuality is not inborn and can be changed.”

Now, how’s that for a cash cow? All those therapists, sociologists, and psychoanalysts who can’t make a decent living with a plain old practice treating people for garden-variety depression or listening to patients go on and on and on about their lousy jobs or their sucky love lives… they can rake in the cash trying to “cure” homosexuals. Since homosexuality isn’t a disease that can be cured, these people are bound to be in business for a long time. I bet this cottage industry of “curing” homosexuals makes even more money for therapists, sociologists, and psychoanalysts than the burgeoning “divorce industry.” When they aren’t raking in hundreds of dollars per hour draining the pockets of parents with custody and psychological evaluations, they can “cure” homosexuals. What a racket!

According to the blog Ex-Gay Watch, “The City Councilman for the surrounding area, Bill Rosendahl, an openly gay man and practicing Catholic, protested outside the NARTH convention along with a group of therapists and students.”

Rosendahl called their research and their methods “unproven, unsafe and abusive,” pointing out that the American Psychiatric Association stopped classifying homosexuality as a condition to be cured more than three decades ago.”

“It’s another form of rationalization for the continued persecution and prejudice against gay people, and it has to stop,” Rosendahl said. “That’s why we’re here.”

Ex-Gay Watch disputed Spaulding’s contention that 1,000 people had shown up for the NARTH convention, claiming that only 100 had shown up, including therapists and some of the allegedly ex-gay clients.

I thought that Spaulding should know exactly how that ex-gay racket has played out. This press release just about blew my socks off when I first read it in January. Read the whole thing. Note that Richard Cohen, founder of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays (P-FOX), once was conservative talk-radio host Dr. Laura Schlessinger’s advisor.


Tuesday, Jan. 25, 2005

website: www.WayneBesen.com


Revealing, Never-Before Seen Document Is a Devastating Blow For Outdated Pseudo-Science That Tries To Turn Gay People Straight, Says Besen

NEW YORK – Author Wayne Besen today released an explosive, never-before seen letter he uncovered from the American Counseling Association that “permanently expelled” reparative therapist Richard Cohen in 2003 for serious ethics violations. …

As the outspoken president of Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Dr. Laura Schlessinger’s ex-gay advisor, Cohen’s expulsion casts a dark shadow over the disreputable practice of trying to change sexual orientation.

“The Right wing should be ashamed for promoting the work of a therapist who has been officially rebuked for egregious ethical lapses,” said Wayne Besen, author of Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth. “That Cohen is the best the far right can find in support of their position that gay people can change underscores the quack-like pseudo-science that they rely on. It is time they end the charade and admit that reparative therapy is harmful and ineffective.”

According to the ACA’s letter: “Mr. Cohen was found in violation of the following code sections A.1.a; A.1.b; A.5.a; A.6.a; C.3.b, C.3.f, and has not elected to appeal the decision taken by the ACA Ethics Committee within allotted timelines.” (Please see below for full explanation of violations)

The letter referred to Cohen’s violations which included inappropriate behavior such as fostering dependent counseling relationships, not promoting the welfare of clients, engaging in actions that sought to meet his personal needs at the expense of clients, exploiting the trust and dependency of clients, unethically soliciting testimonials from clients and promoting products to clients in a manner that is deceptive.

“It is no surprise that Richard Cohen violated the ACA ethics because reparative therapy itself lacks integrity and attempts to meet their agenda’s need, not the needs of client’s,” said Joe Kort, psychotherapist and author of 10 Smart Things Gay Men Can Do To Improve Their Lives. “Of particular note is that Cohen’s violations are self-serving as he is accused of violating standard ethics of protecting his client from dual relationships, marketing purposes, and testimonials.”

Richard Cohen is the president of P-FOX, a group that recently placed an >ex-gay billboard in Virginia (www.Pfox.org ) and sponsored a controversial ad campaign in Washington DC’s subway system. His website is www.gaytostraight.org and he is a conference instructor for the National Association for the Research and Therapy for Homosexuality (NARTH). Cohen is also the author of Coming Out Straight, a book in which Dr. Laura Schlessinger wrote the forward.

“With intellect and care, he [Cohen] offers invaluable insight into the reason for same-sex attractions and, for those willing to brave it, he illuminates a challenging journey from isolation,” wrote Dr. Laura in Cohen’s book.

Cohen has also been prominently featured on Larry King Live, The Ricki Lake Show, The Sally Jessy
Raphael Show
and 20/20. The sound bite he often uses on these shows is, “Born gay? No Way!” Reparative therapy is rejected by every mainstream medical and mental health organization in America.

The Rules Violated By Cohen

Section A: The Counseling Relationship

A.1. Client Welfare

a. Primary Responsibility. The primary responsibility of counselors is to respect the dignity and to promote the welfare of clients.

b. Positive Growth and Development. Counselors encourage client growth and development in ways that foster the clients’ interest and welfare; counselors avoid fostering dependent counseling relationships.

A.5. Personal Needs and Values a. Personal Needs. In the counseling relationship, counselors are aware of the intimacy and responsibilities inherent in the counseling relationship, maintain respect for clients, and avoid actions that seek to meet their personal needs at the expense of clients.

A.6. Dual Relationships
a. Avoid When Possible. Counselors are aware of their influential positions with respect to clients, and they avoid exploiting the trust and dependency of clients. Counselors make every effort to avoid dual relationships with clients that could impair professional judgment or increase the risk of harm to clients. (Examples of such relationships include, but are not limited to, familial, social, financial, business, or close personal relationships with clients.) When a dual relationship cannot be avoided, counselors take appropriate professional precautions such as informed consent, consultation, supervision, and documentation to ensure that judgment is not impaired and no exploitation occurs. (See F.1.b.)

C.3. Advertising and Soliciting Clients
b. Testimonials. Counselors who use testimonials do not solicit them from clients or other persons who, because of their particular circumstances, may be vulnerable to undue influence.

f. Promoting to Those Served. Counselors do not use counseling, teaching, training, or supervisory relationships to promote their products or training events in a manner that is deceptive or would exert undue influence on individuals who may be vulnerable. Counselors may adopt textbooks they have authored for instruction purposes.

I’ll say it again: What a racket!

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About Trish Wilson

  • In doing extensive research and reporting on the ex-gay movement, I have had the dubious pleasure of speaking with Richard Cohen on numerous occasions. IMO, he’s the worst kind of charlatan, one who really believes in the sick bill of goods he sells.

    Great book selection: I’ve known Wayne Besen for years. He engages in really tough talk (sometimes to his detriment), but he knows his subject and tells the truth about what really lies behind ex-gay “therapy” and ministries.

    And good on you for finding Ex-Gay Watch, which provides a necessary service to the world by giving fair, honest coverage of the ex-gay movement’s dangerous myths and practices.

  • I’ve heard of Ex-Gay Watch, but I didn’t know they had a blog. I’ve known about the so-called ex-gay “therapy” for years. It seems that lots of psychologists are losing money, mainly because of new rules regarding insurance. I guess they need to find other ways of making money, and there are a lot of rackets out there. The ex-gay racket is only one of them, but it’s a particularly nasty one.

  • It surely is. The amount of ex-gay therapy and ministry-caused devastation I have seen just breaks the heart. And organizations like Exodus International and Love in Action give me the absolute chills. I care deeply for someone who is in a position of leadership at EI; I worry for him every day as I see a sweet person use increasingly vicious language to discredit GLBT people and to cast aspersion on our lives and families. (No doubt he worries for me too.)

    Yeah, Ex-Gay Watch, which is written by my friend Mike Airhart and others, has been around for years. Mike is a fine journalist and a great human being. And I owe him an email or phone call.

  • I used to be a Fundy about twenty years ago. I was Catholic Charismatic, so I wasn’t into the Protestant version that has messed up the current Republican party so much. I read newspaper reports about supposedly ex-gay people cruising for dates in gay bars. You can’t “cure” homosexuality because it isn’t a disease, but that doesn’t stop some enterprising psychologists from trying to make a buck off of it. I’m more familiar with how psychologists, sociologists, and therapists have jumped on the “divorce industry” bandwagon than I am with how they’ve jumped on the “ex-gay” bandwagon, but the motives seem to be similar. They are both rackets to make money from confused and scared people. I’d like to know how much it costs per hour for homosexuals to be “treated” by these people. I know it’s in the hundreds for psychologists who make their livings doing custody and psychological evaluations.

    Psychologists have been losing business in recent years, and they’ve been looking for novel ways to make money. I wouldn’t trust an “ex-gay” psychologist at all. There are so many ethical problems with that line of work. At least one “professional” has been sanctioned for doing that kind of work, per my post.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I suspect that The Countess has hit the nail on the head – psychologists are losing money and need to make some. “Curing” homosexuality sounds like a good respectable scheme – but you can’t cure an instinctive condition. Another scam.

    Is “life coaching” just another racket, or if it is real? It strikes me strange that someone needs to “coach” someone on how to live life. Isn’t that what growing up is all about? If you’re a life coach and your neighbor comes in bawling because her husband just suffered a stroke and she can’t handle it, do you bill her by the hour? I really wonder about the “helping” preofessions sometimes.

  • Anthony Grande

    That is all bull. You are just bad mouthing the Ex gays because that is all you can do. They got a movement going right know and it makes you nervous.

    Homosexualality is a choice caused by something wrong happening or going wrong in someone’s life. So it is a mental disorder.

    They need help, not special rights.

  • Hmmm. Am I going to take the word of a nearly 17-year-old kid over that of medical experts and the experiences of myself and others?

    Mr. Grande, with all due respect, you are entitled to hold and state your opinion. In this case, you have no way to know what you’re talking about.

  • Nancy

    So in Anthony Grande’s opinion, Anthony Grande knows better than the entire APA? Practicing psychiatric medicine without a license, are we now? Christ, you’d be hysterically funny if you weren’t so pitiful & patheticially ignorant, Grande.

  • And not only the American Psychological Association, but the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, the American Counseling Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics …

    Need I go on?

  • Every time I hear “life coach”, I think of Eva from Nip/Tuck. She has some serious issues, to put it mildly. Yup, I bet “life coach” is another racket made to make money for people who otherwise can’t earn a living.

    I’d rather trust what the APA has to say about gay “therapy” than what Anthony Grande has to say. Besides, Anthony, what do you have to say about this?

    Ex-Gay Leader Confronted In Gay Bar. It’s about John Paulk, board chair for Exodus International. Paulk made excuses for being in the gay bar, saying he had to use the bathroom. Heh.

  • gonzo marx

    nice linkage Countess, and a fine read for a Post….


    as for Ant G…pay him no heed, he has a bit of a difficulty with factual accuracy….

    i try and explain things , but you know how it is…


    James Dean was the actor, Jimmy Dean makes sausage

    it’s NOT the “Leaning Tower of Pizza”

    and we don’t get french benefits

    but i digress…


  • Anthony Grande

    Well, it sounds to me like some doctors are letting their personal beliefs get in the way of their practices.

    We got some ex gays converting gays and everyone gets mad. They aren’t hurting no one so leave them alone.

    I thought this was a free country. How come that man has to explain himself?

  • Actually, John Paulk (who is a pleasant enough fellow) left his Exodus board post after the Mr. P’s incident. Last I heard, he and his female spouse and kids were living in Portland, OR, where he works with a little Exodus-affiliated ministry.

  • gonzo marx

    Ant G sez…
    *How come that man has to explain himself?*

    simplicity itself to explain why he had to do so

    it’s called hypocrisy

    now go and look it up, then think about why it is hypocritical for someone advocating this whole “gay is a choice and we can save you from it” thing…and making money from it…when he is found in a gay bar and publicly busted

    i realize that recognizing the Reality of that situation doesn’t fit into the narrow confines of your worldview, but try taking the blinders off for once and looking at the Facts in an Objective manner…




  • “How come that man has to explain himself?”

    Ask his former bosses and a whole passel of fundamentalists who were none too happy with Mr. Paulk after his DC escapade… Then again, so many of their poster ex-gays end up finding and finally accepting their real selves, it’s no wonder.

  • gonzo marx, I saw the commercial too. I also hear that James Dean’s car is haunted by his ghost.

    The James Dean Curse

    Snopes couldn’t even debunk it. The legend is called “undetermined”. Awright!!!!

    And yup, Paulk stepped down from Exodus International after the gay bar incident. That didn’t look good for the “ex-gay” ministry, did It?

    Trish (who wants James Dean’s cursed car)

  • Greg Schoppe

    two notes of interest… not points of contention, just notes…

    1. Before the 50’s you could easily find thousands of doctors who would claim that smoking was good for your health. Therefore, there is precident against the “10000 people can’t be wrong” argument made above.

    2. Just because some “ex-gays” have been seen to lapse, doesn’t mean the program is a total failure. Many drug addicts return to their addictions after therapy. That doesn’t mean the therapy is inneffectual for all.

    anyway, just thought I’d bring some logic to this argument… it seemed a bit more emotionally fueled than logic fueled.

  • Silas Kain

    We got some ex gays converting gays and everyone gets mad. They aren’t hurting no one so leave them alone.

    Ex-gays converting gays — what a total unmitigated joke. As far as these ex-gays not hurting anyone, that is another fallacy perpetuated by self-loathing, sexually ambivalent humans who are too repressed to realize that sexuality is as natural as a rain shower.

    I’m not denying that the intentions of some ex-gays may be good; however, the overall ferocity of this group lends to the continued emotional blackmail, financial extortion and repression of gays. The gay community has come far too along in the last 35 years to allow itself to be victimized. I don’t want to force my sexuality on anyone, that’s an individual decision. That being said, I am out, proud and a positive member of society. Sure, there are those who will never accept of condone my lifestyle. And, as I said, that’s a matter of individual choice.

  • Luke

    I don’t see how something so clinical and unsexy as all these psycho-analists and shit is suppose to make homosexuals get horny when they see a naked woman, I mean, I’m sure as hell not going to get a stiffy either when a shrink is pointing out eroginous zones and things which are suppose to give me a boner on a diagram of a naked woman covered in side notes and technical jargan explaining which neurons in my brain are going to start firing when I look at grid reference F5.

  • Luke

    The only way to be heterosexual, is to have a perverse obsession with stairing at naked women, how the fuck is anyone suppose to teach you how to have perverted thoughts about women

  • If the only way to be a straight man is to have a “perverse obsession with staring at naked women”, maybe there should be an “ex-straight” movement. Somehow, I don’t think the Fundies would get behind that one.

  • Luke

    Well, if a woman is walking down the street wearing a bearly there miniskirt, and I’m walking behind her, I’m imagining all the kinky shit I want to do to her, what does an ex-gay man think while he’s staring at her ass? Probably thinking “My therapist said that I’m suppose to enjoy looking at attractive women, he said I should look at at least 10 attractive women per day, this is woman number 6, so just have to stare at another 4 attractive women to meet my quota, and then I can go home and jack off to gay porn”

  • Anthony Grande

    “simplicity itself to explain why he had to do so

    it’s called hypocrisy.”

    Wouldn’t it make sense for a man who works with gays and tries to help them do a little research about how they act amongst eachother?

  • Fundamentalists have had an ex-straight movement for much longer than they’ve had an ex-gay movement. It’s carefully designed to minimize every hetero male’s sexual interaction with women. They call it marriage.

    Of course, it doesn’t actually work, just as their efforts to “cure” gays have never worked. But that doesn’t stop them from trying.

    (Don’t get me wrong here. Marriage can be a great thing. It’s just one of many great things that tend to get ruined once fundamentalist extremists get hold of them.)

  • Anthony Grande

    And Silas is just pissed off because he knows that if they are truly “ex-gay” it would prove that homosexuality is a choice and is not created by nature.

  • Luke

    Does it make a difference whether it’s a choice or not? There’re heterosexuals who love scat porn, does it make a difference whether fecalfelia is created by nature? and to a lesser extent, heterosexuals who like anal sex and oral sex, does it make a difference if those sexual preferences were created by nature, regardless one way or another, human sexuallity is a twisted confusing thing, whether aspects of it are nature or nurture, it doesn’t make any fucking difference, the end result is homo’s shit fuckers, various other kinds of perverts, and people who’re so disgusted by those things, they want to try and stop people from doing what they enjoy doing.

  • Bennett

    10th grad – Werd ov th weak: “amongst”

    “do a little research about how they act”

    Uh, he is an “ex-gay”, so ya gotta figure he knows already.

  • Bennett

    Victor – #24 is funny as hell!

  • Anthony Grande

    “Does it make a difference whether it’s a choice or not?”

    In this argument – Yes. If these people are truly “ex-gay” then it proves that being gay is a choice and if homosexuality is determined at conception then these people wouldn’t even be ex-gay they would be self-loathing gays.

    “10th grad”

    Well I know that this is just a typo and that you know how to spell “grade” but if I was like you I would call you out on it and make fun of you.

    And I am in 11th grade, not 10th grade.

  • Luke

    So it’s like giving up cigarettes then, if being gay is a choice then being straight is a choice too, ppl just stick to what they like, if a gay person tells you gay sex is more enjoyable than straight sex, and you say, no straight sex is better, then that’s just opinion vs opinion, neither of you are right, it may seem obviously like a god damned disgusting thing to do, but that’s just your opinion, having said that, seeing as it’s a choice, then a gay person should be able to make you an ex-straight person, just as easily as you can make him an ex gay person, that’s if society views both as being equally acceptable of course, it’s a lot easier for you to say no i’ll stay straight thanks, when the rest of society agrees with you, also, why can women have all the lesbian sex they want without society admonishing them for it, not that I can blame women for wanting to have hot lesbo action.

  • Bennett

    “not that I can blame women for wanting to have hot lesbo action”

    That’s an opinion shared by billions.

  • Luke

    So why then did they used to punish lesbians back in the dark ages by cutting the clitoris off, that’s just fucked up, like the men were so insecure, the idea that women might enjoy having sex with eachother more than having sex with men was frightening, at any minute their nice obedient docile wives would all rebel against them and form a lesbian cult, with regular ritual orgies, and then the men would all get sexually frustrated and lonely because all the women had left, so lesbians had to be punished so that women knew who was the boss.

  • Stephanie Milano

    It’s about time someone is trying to cure the diseased.

  • I agree, Stephanie. There are too many homophobes out there. Hallelujah, Praise the Lord, Jehovah God Be Praised, Allah Forever! The disease of homophobia will be cured!

  • Stephanie Milano

    Yeah, just read Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 24:13.

  • Roger

    Look, you’re missing the point about ministries that work to help bring people out of the “gay lifestyle.” It’s not as if these people are kidnapping gay people off the street kicking and screaming in order to try to deprogram them. These gay folks are LOOKING for a way out, and that’s why they seek out professionals to help them.

    And before you start bashing me as a “gay hater” or whatever, you need to know that I have a brother who I dearly love who is gay, and one of my favorite aunts is gay. My feelings, love and support for them have no bearing on their sexual orientation. I’m merely stating facts. My relative’s homosexuality is their business not mine. I just love them because they’re my family.

    What annoys me about the gay community on this issue, is that they talk out of both sides of their mouths. On one hand, they preach tolerance, and embracing of their lifestyle, but, when it comes to them being tolerant of Christians and their views that’s another story. The hostility and outright open season on vilifying Christians is just fine to them. And they call Christians hypocrites.

    I’m a born again Christian and believe that homosexuality is a sin, just as the Bible says. However, all sin is sin, and all sin separates us from God. All sin is evil to God, and homosexuality is no different. Scripture says that “the wages of sin is death.”

    Homosexual advocates erroneously blame Christians for being intolerant of gays. However, it’s the BIBLE that says that God counts homosexuality as sin, not Christians. God said it, not us. The gay community’s issue should be with the Bible, not Christians. And, incidentally, there have been efforts by liberals in general, and gays in particular to reinterpret the Bible, and claim everything from the blasphemy that Christ Himself was gay, to the idea that the Bible doesn’t really say that homosexuality is sin at all.

    Unfortunately for these arguments, the archeological evidence to the contrary is just too strong. There are actual manuscripts of the New Testament in existence, that date to within 30 years or so of Christ’s life. And there are literally hundreds of them, and the Old Testament (law) as well. In fact, the Canon is the singularly best documented of ancient manuscripts in existence. And main line translations of the Bible (such as the King James version,) are actually faithful to the ancient manuscripts to within just a handful of words. So, the inaccuracy arguments just don’t bear up under scrutiny.

    Point being, that Scripture says that “God loved the WORLD so much, that He sent His son Jesus Christ, that WHOEVER believes in Him will have eternal life.” Further, in illustrating that point, when Jesus was on Earth, He hung out with those who society considered to be the worst of the worst. I’m not likening gays to the dregs of society, what I’m saying is that Jesus spent time with sinners– all kinds of sinners.

    There are those Christians who may attempt to classify homosexuality as a “disease,” in order to build a case that it’s wrong. But this is unnecessary. Rather, in fact, they’re no different than the gay scientist that originated the theory that homosexuality is genetic. He formed his hypothesis, and now he, and others in the scientific community are furiously trying to prove that the theory is correct. But this is in clear violation of the scientific method, which says that a hypothesis should be formed, and then investigation should be undertaken to determine whether or not it is TRUE OR NOT. Science should be completely UNBIASED. Theorems should be OBJECTIVELY investigated to determine whether the evidence supports this theory. And my use of the term “theory” is in no way derogatory. This IS the scientific method.

    At any rate, I’ve really digressed. I personally know people who’ve been heterosexual their entire lives– indeed, to the point of having been in stable, long-term heterosexual relationships or marriage, only to, at some point later in adulthood, cross over to a homosexual lifestyle.

    This is in no fashion an indictment of the heterosexual lifestyle, it just means, that for whatever reason, they’ve changed the way they live.

    Why is it that the homosexual community is so threatened by the idea that someone might want to leave that lifestyle?

    Look, I live in Oregon, which is the Mother Country for liberals. There is absolutely no real persecution of gays here. And, I live in a community that for over a quarter of a century has been known as a HAVEN for homosexuals. During the years prior to gays coming out of the closet, this was a community where it was acceptible for gays to live openly. This is the testimony of one of my gay friends that I knew here twenty-five years ago.

    And, our city council, with massive public support, recently passed an ordinance formalizing an antidiscrimination law, specifically aimed at sexual orientation.

    And yet, we have a community aid group, whose charter mandate is to assist homosexuals in dealing with the “guilt and shame” (their words,) that gays feel in being homosexual. My point is, that while there is no public persecution of gays here, they continue to feel guilt and shame. Why is that? I’m not making it up– it’s their own organization that makes the claim.

    So, if some homosexuals feel guilt and shame, and chose to deal with that by undertaking to leave the gay lifestyle, what difference does that make to the whole community? Why not live and let live? But no, what they do, is to lash out at the people who are trying to help these people. If homosexuals truly are as loving and accepting as they claim to be, wouldn’t they really want to see their brothers and sisters feel better and be helped, whatever form that might take?

    But they don’t do this. They lash out with a hostility and intolerance rarely seen on the right wing side. Talk about hypocrites!

  • steve

    It is about time that people start looking for a cure for this mental disease.

  • Michael A. Milano

    Really, it is about time.

  • I wonder how Anthony Grande might feel if his entire church congregation and all of his friends at school were constantly pressuring him to sign up for treatment by the Ex-Italian Ministries, an organization promising to help him “attain the goal of reaching his potential to become a French person.”

  • Why would anyone CHOOSE a lifestyle that condemns them to hateful bigotry be it here or in their own family, let alone by entire cultures and religions?

  • Why is it that the homosexual community is so threatened by the idea that someone might want to leave that lifestyle?

    Oh please. There are plenty of homosexuals who I would love to see hop over the fence to straightdom. They are an embarassment to the gay community. The fact that a gay person may be “cured” isn’t an issue, per se. What remains the core issue is that homosexuality is NOT a choice, period. Newly post pubescent boys like Anthony can argue the point all the want. In my experience he who screams loudest is destined to become a female impersonator. Homosexuality exists in all life forms from fish in the sea to monkeys in the jungle. Humans develop an intellect and a system of repression and all of a sudden it becomes unnatural and dirty. I’m envious of lesbians myself because most lesbians I know are well-rounded together women who have a strong sense of self and community. My gay brothers would do well to follow their example. It’s no wonder straight men find the lesbian act so enticing — deep down they know that it isn’t a penis that ultimately satisfies a woman and they can’t deal with it. Mankind is a cancer upon this Earth and with any luck Mother Nature will exact her sweet revenge and pluck a good portion of it off into oblivion.

  • Anthony Grande

    Hey Victor, you do understand that you can’t changes ones race? And that gays are not a race?

    And Silas, I am an animal lover and have owned many hamsters, dogs, fish, birds and others in my life and I have never seen two male hamsters getting it on.

    I have owned these guppies for over 10 years and I have seen many generations come and go. The males have colored tails and the females are bigger and have plain tales. The males court the females by constantly chasing and following them around the tank. I have spent many ours watching and studying them and have never seen two guppies with colored tails chasing eachother.

    Use common sense man. Animals and us have our sexual organs for reproductive purposes. Reproduction is natural. Gays can’t reproduce so they are not natural.

  • Roger

    Silas, I’m not really sure what the point of your argument is. I’d say that, perhaps homosexuality isn’t a CHOICE for YOU, but it must be for some people, since they are choosing (and many of them are very successful at it,) to come out of that lifestyle.

    And, you better check your science, because homosexuality doesn’t pervade all forms of life on this planet, which is not to say that it doesn’t exist at all. It’s just not even close to being prevalent or even significant. For one thing, animals do not have sex for enjoyment purposes, its for procreation. Therefore, there is no place for homosexuality in nature. You cannot ascribe human emotions of love and companionship to animals, even though they seem warm and fuzzy and cute. Please don’t insult me with those kind of empty-headed arguments.

    And please, tell me where gays are persecuted today? My contention is, that if gays feel guilt and shame, its because of God’s conviction that homosexuality is a sin. This conviction comes because God desperately wants to save people from their sin, and is trying to get their attention. Unless a person comes to Christ, they cannot be saved. And the Bible says that God does not wish for anyone to perish to eternal death.

    Gays want to ascribe their guilt and shame to repression of society, but I don’t really know of many places where anyone is shamed for being gay in this day and age. In fact, homosexuality is celebrated in most places due to the efforts of gays to “normalize” their behavior.

    Homosexual urges may not seem like a choice to you, but living as a homosexual IS a choice. Just as someone may struggle with alcoholism, the craving for alcohol may not seem like a choice, but living as a practicing alcoholic is, most indeed, a choice.

  • Anthony Grande


  • And please, tell me where gays are persecuted today?

    You obviously do not read all the comments here at BC.

    For one thing, animals do not have sex for enjoyment purposes, its for procreation. Therefore, there is no place for homosexuality in nature.

    Wrong again. Check your own science. There’s plenty of documentation.

    You cannot ascribe human emotions of love and companionship to animals, even though they seem warm and fuzzy and cute. Please don’t insult me with those kind of empty-headed arguments.

    We are so superior in that we seem to have the monopoly on love and emotions. We humans are a speck of dust in the Universe yet we are so full of our own egos that we forget just how insignificant we really are. If you feel insulted by anything I said then perhaps you will have experienced just a fraction of what I’ve gone through in my life.

  • Anthony, you may think you have no choice about being Italian or French. But if you faced anything like what Silas faces in life, your church congregation wouldn’t care what you think or feel. They would constantly try to persuade it was morally wrong to be Italian. They would insist you must choose to become French, or at least learn to act like a French person, if you wanted to continue being part of their community.

  • We may not have choices when it comes to race, sexuality, national origin or gender — but we do have a choice when it comes to getting an education. Some of us choose to listen and learn — others choose to just hear themselves spew.

  • Anthony Grande

    “Wrong again. Check your own science. There’s plenty of documentation.”

    Plenty of documentation? Well I have been given that same exact website at least 50 times by your ilk hear a BC. “One” does not equal “plenty”.

    Victor, I see the point you are trying to make but let’s drop this race = gay thing.

    If Silas wants to be normal and be part of the rest of the rest of society then he should get help. When someone has a certain fear or problem or anything they go and see a theropyst where they can discuss the problem this certain person has facing.

    “Some of us choose to listen and learn — others choose to just hear themselves spew.”

    Silas, the sky is green. If you say I am wrong then that means you don’t know how to listen and you are incapable of learning.

  • Clearly you don’t see the point I’ve made, Antoine, or you would have stopped attacking Silas for something he did not choose and cannot change.

  • Anthony Grande

    There you go again, Victor. Because I have a different opinion then I am blind and not capable of reason.

    Silas, might actally believe that his orientation is towards the opposite sex and that is the reason why he needs to get help.

  • You don’t have an opinion, you have a prejudice. In fact you have several prejudices that blind you, Antoine.

    The example that I chose was not about “race” at all. If you weren’t blinded by your hatred of the French you might have had a chance to see that. The fact is, France is an open society that doesn’t define its national identity on the basis of race. Anyone can become French by making the choice to become fluent in the language and immigrating to France.

    But you don’t see this as a choice that’s open to you. You think it’s impossible for you to become French, so you perceive me to be equating homosexuality with being born of a particular “race.”

    If I were to ceaselessly hound you and browbeat you for your refusal to exert the effort to become French, and call you immoral and abnormal because of it, I’d be treating you just as unkindly as you are treating Silas.

  • VICTOR: Given that AG is only 16, naive, inexperienced in the ways of the world and quite possibly still a virgin, is there really any point in trying to debate with him?

    He needs to grow for a few years and have his ignorant presumption knocked out of him by some real life experience before being taken seriously.

    Right now he’s incapable of reason, indeed, his major developmental challenge right now is whether he chooses the light of reason or the dark of prejudice and hate. Yikes! Anthony is really Luke Skywalker!

  • Skywalker, he may be, but – Luke or Anakin?

  • I was thinking more like Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggert. Come to think of it maybe Tammy Faye.

    Silas, might actally believe that his orientation is towards the opposite sex and that is the reason why he needs to get help.

    Oh Lordy, Lordy. I need to get help. That is awesome. Such a liberal thing to say. Conservatives believe in self reliance and God, Anthony. To suggest I need help is to subscribe to a liberal way of thought. You are such a Democrat, sweetie.

  • Anthony Grande

    “You don’t have an opinion, you have a prejudice.”

    Oh, because my opinion differs from yours then it isn’t an opinion at all, it is a prejudice.

    I have another opinion: African Americans tend to have darker skin than white Americans. Is this an opinion, fact or a prejudice?

    And when did I say I hate the French? I said I wasn’t French so I guess because I am not French then I am prejudice against the French too.

    Let’s see Victor, are you Chinese? If you say no then you are a racist bastard.

    Christophe, if I was 16 and came to BC in support of Gay Marriage would you still say that I am incapable of reason and need some life experiences to get my head straight?

    And Silas, yes, I am a hard core left wing democrat. What gave me away?

  • ANTHONY: Thinking that African Americans tend to have darker skin than White Americans isn’t an opinion, it’s a generalisation:

    And yes, you’re a child with no life experience so yes, you do need to have some.

    Furthermore, you can’t compare your views with those of somebody supporting Gay marriage. The motivation and politics of hate, which is what you are supporting, are not comparable to those of people who argue for tolerance.

    You’re just a silly frightened little boy who doesn’t understand life at all so there really is no reason to take your views seriously. You’re either going to grow up and learn some sense or youi’re not going to grow and remain the frightened little kid that you are now.

    Remember this, positive people accept others, negative losers spout prejudice, hatred and fear.

    So, who are you going to be when you grow up?

  • Luke

    Anthony Grande
    November 24, 2005
    11:18 PMHey Victor, you do understand that you can’t changes ones race? And that gays are not a race?

    And Silas, I am an animal lover and have owned many hamsters, dogs, fish, birds and others in my life and I have never seen two male hamsters getting it on.


    I think there’re bisexual chimpanzees, :/ I don’t know where I saw it, probably TV, but a chimpanzee will fuck another chimpanzee in the ass just for the fun of it

  • Mary K. Williams

    “Reproduction is natural. Gays can’t reproduce so they are not natural.”

    But Anthony –
    Many people cannot reproduce, does that make them ‘unnatural’ ?

  • Winston Jen

    Anthony has further proved that it is NOT intelligent to take social conservative positions no matter how old you are.

    If people only supported the civil rights they personally benefitted from, we’d have almost no civil rights for anyone.