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Losing The War On Terror

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With the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, purported to be the al-Qaeda number one guy in Iraq, the American military is working itself up into a fine old state of excitement. After military personnel combing through the wreckage of the bombsite found Mr. al-Zarqawi's diaries, phone books and computers, Major General William Caldwell said the troops had found a "treasure trove" and that 56 raids had already been carried out as a result.

That after a bombing raid that was strong enough to kill five people, and reduce a house to a large amount of rubble, soldiers were able to find diaries, phone books and one working database in a computer, pushes credibility somewhat. To believe that any of the information written down or recorded at this location is pertinent to the workings of al-Qaeda either in Iraq or anywhere seems a little ludicrous.

You live in an city that's occupied by one of the largest occupying armies ever seen and you head up the operations of the most wanted terrorist group in the world and you're going to leave information like Osama's home number in your diary? Better yet your personal notebooks are going to be filled with detailed plans of all future operations in Baghdad, down to the detail of everyone's name and address that's going to be involved.

Just in case your memory has really gotten bad, you also create a database that lists all the names, addresses, and phone numbers of all contacts. Even more fortuitous is that it's the one database that manages to survive the bombing attack. Amazing.

There's no denying that some journals or phone diaries survived, or that the American army may have carried out 56 raids as they claim to have in today's Globe and Mail newspaper. But did you notice they're awfully silent as to the nature of whom they've exactly raided and what the raids have accomplished.

Oh, they can spout security issues all they want, but have you noticed if they ever do anything right they make damn sure we know about it no matter how important the security issue might be. The only time there are security issues are those occasions when saying something will look embarrassing. It's not quite as impressive to say 'we hit three take-out Falafel stands, an all-night grocery store, and the guy's grandmother's house last night', as it is to say 'we've already conducted 56 raids'.

Sure there might be one or two genuine bits of information that they picked up, but remember this guy also ran a web site and most of the stuff he's going to have just lying around in his computers will be the usual propaganda garbage that is of no use to anyone. Why do these guys always feel the need to exaggerate the importance of what's happened? They've been doing it for so long now that it gets harder and harder to know when anything of genuine importance happens.

That they killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is without question, but you have to wonder why they had to do it in this manner. Why bomb a house when you occupy the territory the guy lives in. Why not just stake out the place and pick him up off the street one-day when he leaves so you can have him for questioning. If he's as important as they claim he was, wouldn't he have been more valuable alive than dead as a source of information?
If the terrorists are able to pick up anybody they want at random off the streets no matter how well protected they are and hold them for ransom, how come the U.S. military and Intelligence forces aren't capable of doing the same thing? They don't seem to have any hesitancy about using torture on low-level Iraqi soldiers to try to find out information, why not pick this guy up and try to find out the location of Osama or details of al-Qaeda's upcoming attacks?

What advantage is to be gained by killing one individual, and any civilians that happened to be in that building at the time? All they've successfully done is create another martyr who has died for the cause and created more victims to be held up as proof of American perfidy.

Haven't they learned anything from watching the Israeli attempts to cut off the head of the snake by targeting leaders? These groups are like a hydra; you cut off one limb and two more grow to replace it. You may cause a temporary lull in activities, if you're lucky, but the more likely reaction will be an increase in terrorist attacks.

In fact the first word out of Al-Qaeda has been that they are planning a series of reprisal attacks. General George Casey, the top U.S. general in Iraq, responded by saying he expected them "to try to do what they said".

He continued by saying:

I think what you're going to see is an enhanced security operation here announced by the prime minister in Baghdad over the course of the coming week and a tightening of security in the Baghdad area. So … it's expected, but I think we'll be prepared for it. But again, you can't stop terrorist attacks completely.

I thought the point had been to prevent that sort of thing from happening by getting rid of this guy. Isn't that what this all about, the whole war on terror, a matter of ending the attacks and keeping people safe? So why is it that not only when they do bump one of these guys off they not only expect the attacks to increase, but admit that they really can't do anything about them?

Is it because, even though they know this strategy doesn't work, they have no option but to keep exercising it because they've closed the doors on all other options, too securely too long ago, for them to be reopened? That all of a sudden if they change the focus of their foreign policy to more Marshall Plan and less "bomb them back to the stone age" no one will trust them anymore?

Or is it even worse and they still believe that they are on the right track despite all contrary evidence. The Taliban have regained more of a foothold in Afghanistan and are making life miserable again for the Coalition troops. A Taliban-like force has just captured the capital of Somalia and has taken over ipso facto rule of the country (including banning televising the World Cup which might see an end to their rule quickly if they are not careful). A homegrown terrorist cell, not of immigrants but of people born in Canada, was uncovered in parts of Ontario Canada this past week. Although it waits to be seen how real a threat they were, the fact they exist at all should be worrisome.

In other words the conditions that existed five years ago haven't changed and the motivations, real or otherwise, for young Islamic men to become involved haven't decreased. It's very easy for charismatic leaders to whip starving people into frenzied states of hatred against an enemy. It's immaterial whether that enemy is to blame for their woes or not.

Whether it's Israel, the U.S. or just the West in general, it doesn't seem to matter any more. We’ve all come to symbolize in the eyes of the terrorists the cause of their problems for one reason or another. Our current actions are doing nothing to dispel that image among too many of the people who would be most likely to join the ranks of the terrorists.

Not finishing the job properly in Afghanistan was the first mistake made by the American administration. Instead of scurrying off to Iraq and committing all its resources there, it should have capitalized on the universal support it had for the action against the Taliban and commenced with a serious rebuilding program. That would have been the heaviest blow they could have struck against al-Qaeda. Don't give them any ammunition of substance.

It might take a while, but people will believe their own eyes sooner or later, and if they saw American troops working with farmers building irrigation ditches instead of foxholes they would know who was and who wasn't the enemy. Sure it won't be universal, but not everybody is going to like everybody anyway.

But twenty-twenty hindsight is pretty much useless except as a means to hopefully learn from previous mistakes. I'm sure the last thing most people expect to hear from me is that troops have to stay in Iraq until the jobs done, but that's just the way it is. Coalition troops cannot abandon that country to civil war and the infrastructure disaster that exists now.

The quickest way out now is to put as much energy and money into helping the country rebuild, but not by depleting their oil reserves to generate the funds necessary. This has already proven a nightmare of graft and corruption as millions of dollars of that money has gone missing in the hands of the American civilians responsible for the reconstruction and the military in one part of the country.

Tangible proof has to be given of the Americans' desire to rebuild and not just to invade Iraq for them to gain the respect and trust needed to quell the terrorists. Withdrawing the troops without that sort of commitment will leave a vacuum like the one in Afghanistan that will be filled by the terrorists and will be further "proof" of the fact that Westerners don't care about Muslims.

The real war on terror has to be fought in the hearts and minds of the people living without hope in refugee camps and amongst the young men who believe they have no future. There has to be some sort of viable alternative offered to the false lure of heroism that is promised by the terrorists. If not all the victories on the battle field will be for nought, and all the lives of the young men and women that have been spent to this point will have been wasted.

It's still not too late to change from a war on terror to a war on the causes of terrorism, but we need to make that distinction soon, or we may find ourselves trapped in a never-ending cycle of violence. That should be the real terror we are fighting against.

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About Richard Marcus

Richard Marcus is the author of two books commissioned by Ulysses Press, "What Will Happen In Eragon IV?" (2009) and "The Unofficial Heroes Of Olympus Companion". Aside from Blogcritics his work has appeared around the world in publications like the German edition of Rolling Stone Magazine and the multilingual web site Qantara.de. He has been writing for Blogcritics.org since 2005 and has published around 1900 articles at the site.
  • Joe

    Your arguments are a bit silly – you claim Z is too smart to leave notebooks and databases but then you claim we can grab him off the street – because he’s dumb enough to run to the corner for a loaf of bread?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Richard, I hate to tell you this, but so long as your mind lingers in the euro-trash of “cycle of violence” and “root causes of terror”, you will never understand what is going on here.

    Fist of all, your media needs to call a spade a spade. A terrorist is a terrorist. Period. None of this “militant” shit. Until the CBC, BBC, AP, Agenc√© Presse France, Deutsche Welle, CBS, ABC, NBC all work up the balls to say “a Palestinian terrorist ambush killed an Israeli Arab last night,” for example, you will not understand what is going on.

    There is no “cycle of violence.” Wahhabi Moslems, and their various spoor, attack those whom it deems to be its enemies. If the enemies are unwilling to do what is necessary to end the terrorism, and most of the time, they are not, waving all sorts of Geneva Conventions around and crapping in their pants because they are afraid of the Arabs turning off an oil spigot or rioting in their streets, the terrorism will continue.

    Mind you, I’m not talking about bombing anybody back to the Stone Age, tempting as it is. Castrating a few mukhtars and dropping them off naked as jaybirds is all it really takes to stop most of this terror. The head of the snake, Riyadh, needs to be destroyed, and the oil fields of Arabia occupied, but beyond that, there is not that much that need be done. If a bunch of Arabs dance in the streets when a terrorist succeeds, the helicopters need to go in and kill four or five hundred. They will not need to do that again.

    Arabs are not stupid, and know where the humus goes in the pita.

    All of what I suggest sounds terribly brutal, but it takes all of two weeks to accomplish, may cost twenty casualties all tolled, and will solve most of the problem.

    Having done this, then you start to negotiate with the mukhtars how to help Arabs make money. Everybody in the third world knows how to do math real well except the truly retarded, and they all understand that $50 is more than $0 dollars…

    Mini-capital loans would do wonders. There would be peace and business and money would be made. Happiness is another matter.

  • gonzo marx

    Richard sez…
    *Not finishing the job properly in Afghanistan was the first mistake made by the American administration.*

    Quoted for Truth

    my main bitch at the strategy of Rumsfeld, et al….they have yet to finish ANYTHING they started…

    after 9/11 , everyone in the world supported us, including folks like Russia and China…all were on-board for invading Afghanistan, taking out the Taliban and squashing al Qaeda

    note the difference when it came to the pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, also note the task is STILL not finished in Afghanistan, things getting worse, not better…and bin Laden and Mullah Omar still on the loose

    Omar being crucial, since ot the Islamic world, he bears the “cloak of Mohammed”…a rewligious artifact wiht the same legend and PR value that the “Spear of Longinus” woudl hold to sokme christians

    now, we have the opposite extremist view of someone like Ruvy who sez..
    *Castrating a few mukhtars and dropping them off naked as jaybirds is all it really takes to stop most of this terror. The head of the snake, Riyadh, needs to be destroyed, and the oil fields of Arabia occupied, but beyond that, there is not that much that need be done. If a bunch of Arabs dance in the streets when a terrorist succeeds, the helicopters need to go in and kill four or five hundred. They will not need to do that again.*

    as long as either side takes this kind of “ends justify the means” approach, then there is no reachable answer to the problem that anyone has been able to articulate short of insanely barbaric solutions

    what’s the Answer? before we get there, we had better be damn certain fo the Questions first

    Excelsior?

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Ruvy, my friend, you had me until the phrase “waving all sorts of Geneva Conventions around” …which in context sounds an awful lot like “If the enemies are unwilling to do anything to end terrorism, laws and ethical behaviors be damned….”

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Remember, Ruvy’s from Israel where they have no compunctions about doing whatever it takes to get what they want no matter what depths they have to sink to.

    Dave

  • SonnyD

    Richard: We should have stayed in Afghanistan and made a showcase democratic, law abiding, peaceful nation for all the world to see. Agreed.

    If we were going to invade Iraq, we should have handled it a lot differently. Agreed. And we can’t cut and run and leave the new government with a civil war to handle before they are capable. Agreed.

    But it looks like you missed the boat on the whole al-Zarqawi thing. Just because we have 120,000 or so people in the country, does not mean that any of them were within 100 miles of that safe house when his position was finally pin-pointed. In fact, wouldn’t it be smarter to keep all military out of the area? Otherwise the meeting might never have taken place. Keeping track of the movements of the man called his spiritual advisor could not have been easy. They sure couldn’t follow him around with a few truck loads of Marines waiting to attack, could they? So, finally they had him in an isolated house without a lot of innocent by-standers around and no chance of hitting the wrong building and they called in the planes. Sounds like a plan to me.

    Then, there is the whole civilian thing. Well, al-Zarqawi was a civilian, wasn’t he? We aren’t fighting an organized military. And if he is in a meeting with just a few other people, you can bet your bippy they are al Al-Qaeda, women included. They know the danger of being in the presense of a man who is being hunted. If they choose to have their children there instead of sending them to a relative’s house for the day, that’s their choise.

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy..I couldnt agree more! You cannot fight terror with “the Geneva Conventions and the UN” rule book…the fact is terrorist respect one thing power…to many “arm chair” generals on the left think that we can be rationale with these scumbags and apply social work programs to solve the problem…when you have cancer you cut and burn it out there is no such thing as a peaceful cooexistence…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gonzo,

    Count the dead in Iraq – not the American dead, the Arab dead. Count the dead in Israel – not the Jews, but the Arabs.

    YOUR method, the Christian gentleman trying to determine the “right” way to do things, has redsulted in a lot of Arabs dead. Either because of slow attrition and missile attacks, as in Israel, or from freustration with being unable to actually find the enemy, so slaughtering villages instead.

    MY methods are fast, brutal – and humane. I’m interested in breaking the enemy’s will to fight. An Arab population scared shitless to attack Israelis after burying 500 dead from an Israeli helicopter attack on Arabs dancing in the Gaza or Ramallah streets after a terror attack would not resort to terror again. Instead of three or four or five thousand Arabs dead, killed three or four a day in a war of attrition, you would have that 500 killed at once – and no more.

    I don’t know about you, but when I took math 40 years ago, 500 was a lot less than 3,000, 4,000 or 5,000. Maybe a new math has come in along with the political correctness…

    Mr. Nalle – nota bene – I didn’t talk about saving Jewish lives or American lives. I talked about saving Arab lives. That’s how low I stoop.

  • gonzo marx

    Ruvy..we part ways here, as for me you are quite willing to step over a line i will not cross

    ever see “Trial at Nuremburg”? it was taken from the actual transcripts…Spencer Tracy plays the lead judge of the Tribunal and before reading the rulings on other judges during the Reich makes a very excellent Observation which sums up the difference between Civilization and barbarism..i highly reccommend watching it sometime

    the gist is that the Test of a person or a Nation’s principles and ideals is not when it is easy, but when it is hardest…that is when the true character is shown, when it’s hard…when it hurts to do so

    i’m not saying there is no problem, and i’m not saying it doesn’t need to be confronted

    i’m just saying it is not the way of the America i grew up in, or live in, to stoop to that barbarism which you suggest

    i did a bit on ends versus means, my first article on BC

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior?

  • troll

    Ruvy – I suspect that your (terror based) approach would harden the resolve of the ‘enemy’ and demoralize our troops by turning them into criminals

    troll

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gonzo, we indeed part ways here.

    “i’m just saying it is not the way of the America i grew up in, or live in, to stoop to that barbarism which you suggest”

    Maybe you would like to explain the fire bombing of Dresden by the Americans while they carefully did not interfere with the murder of Jews at Auschwitz? Explain how that is not barbarism – on both counts.

    I can see the logic of having used atom bombs on the Japanese to end the Pacific war. It saved about 1,000,000 American casualties and untold millions of Japanese. It was the ends justifying the means, which was opening the atomic Pandora’s box.

    You’re having trouble with a very uncomfortable fact here, Gonzo. Sometimes, you have to be very brutal for a short period of time, in order to bring in a peace over the long run.

    You ignore the point that I’ve made in order not to disturb the well ordered concepts of virtue you seek to adhere to. Your adherence to treaties that your enemy laughs at costs your enemy more lives than breaking that treaty and breaking his will to fight concomittantly.

    By breaking his will to fight, you end the conflict.

  • gonzo marx

    Ruvy…you made an easily understood error in thinking that i have some principle against self defense…i don’t…i do think that defending yourself, as an individual and as a Nation is an inherent Right

    but there is a large difference between defending yourself, or your Nation, and what you have suggested

    as for Dresden…that is a debate for scholars of History with a greater command of the Facts than i have, same with Hiroshima

    neither are on par with taking a civilian, castrating him and then dropping him back in his town as an abject lesson

    that is terrorism, and i , personally, stand against it..in ANY form

    it is one thing to strike back directly against a foe, and another when collateral damage occurs in a War…a far cry from the cold, deliberate targetting of non-military targets to incite fear into a foe indirectly

    as for “breaking his will to fight” might i suggest you try and find some of the film footage of O Sensei, the creator of akido…he was quite capable of breaking an opponents will by only using the opponents own force against him until that Foe surrendered…a poor Analogy, i know…

    but fitting on many levels

    Excelsior?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com/ handyguy

    Guantanamo shames us all. It makes a mockery of justice and democracy…supposedly what we are defending.

    I came upon this article by James Traub from the January 2001 issue of the NY Times magazine. It’s quite fascinating in light of what has followed. Keep in mind, this is 8 months prior to 9/11 and a week before the first W inauguration.
    The Bush Years: W.’s World

  • JustOneMan

    “justice and democracy”…gee I am not sure if MUSLIM terrorists understand those rules…how naive…handy…we are defending innocent people and Americans…wake up….do you think we can still prosecute these low lifes and pond scum in a court of law…

    I’d rather they rot in camp Gitmo than kill innocent Iraqis, Afganys and Americans trying to earn a living, put food on their table and improve their way of life…

    In addition how can you be taken seriously when you quote James Traub from the NYTs!!!! Might as well quote “6 Down” from the crossword puzzle….

  • JustOneMan

    “justice and democracy”…gee I am not sure if MUSLIM terrorists understand those rules…how naive…handy…we are defending innocent people and Americans…wake up….do you think we can still prosecute these low lifes and pond scum in a court of law…

    I’d rather they rot in camp Gitmo than kill innocent Iraqis, Afganys and Americans trying to earn a living, put food on their table and improve their way of life…

    In addition how can you be taken seriously when you quote James Traub from the NYTs!!!! Might as well quote “6 Down” from the crossword puzzle….

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com/ handyguy

    Dozens if not hundreds of those prisoners have already been released, after being held for no good reason. Few if any have been charged, yet they continue to be held indefinitely. If you are willing to take the government’s word, without proof, that these men are dangerous, but that their crimes are too secret for us mere civilians to understand, then I question which of us is more naive.

    Charge them, try them, or let them go.

  • JustOneMan

    Hey Handy…you dont make sense…on one hand you say that “Dozens if not hundreds of those prisoners have already been released” which validates that there is a process…

    Do you expect the military to have open court hearings on Court TV…handy that aint no way to win a war!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gonzo, you still have seemed to have missed the point by a country mile. The castration example is drawn upon what the Russians did in Lebanon 24 years ago when two Russians were kidnapped by a clan there. The castrated mukhtar was delivered to the village with a demand that the Russian be released in 24 hours – or all the men in the village would be castrated. Within 24 hours the kidnapped Russians were returned unharmed. Russians were not again harassed in Lebanon. A castrato choir of one was enough for the Lebanese.

    Here is the point that seems to have escaped all your rhetoric.

    NOBODY DIED!

    Side note to Troll. I would not recommend a plan that had not been tested and tried, and that had worked.

    My goal is simple – to end a conflict quickly by scaring the living shit out of those who would fight. Al Qaeda propaganda concentrates on praising shahada – martyrdom. Kill Arabs and you validate the propaganda. THAT is the problem with Haditha or bombing a wedding to kill terrorists.

    By cotrast, having to LIVE castrated is absolute torture – a torture inflicted very sparingly to increase its efficacy. After all, you can’t screw any virgins in paradise with no balls…

    Killing Arabs, if done at all, would not be a matter of vengeance. It would be a matter of business – to teach them not to celebrate the death of those killed in terror. But again, such acts cannot be done all the time, and the act has to be done with viciousness and speed. The value decreases with frequecy as the propaganda praising shahada becomes more and more validated.

    I’m sorry if my comments seem amoral to you. Jewish rules of war – yes there are such things – require that we call upon the enemy upon our land (and I remind you that Israel is our land) to convert to G-d and follow His laws in peace, surrender and give them a chance to do so, or, if they refuse to do so, kill all the residents of the town, that they will not be a snare to our people. If the conflict takes place on territory that is not our land, then the same rules apply, except that only the men get killed and the women and children are taken as captives. BUT the captives have to be treated with respect and given the chance to mourn their dead.

    I’ve said elsewhere that about 90% of the Qur’an is Jewish law and rabbinic rulings as Mohammed understood them and sought to apply them to his own poeople. Jihad is how Mohammed understood the Book of Joshua and the rules in the Torah I just recited to you.

    The Geneva Convention is nice, but reality is that you non-Jews have been barbaric bastards when waging war. The Geneva Convention is obeyed more in the breach than in reality.

    But notice, Gonzo, I have not advocated applying OUR rules of war. No Jews have advocated that. And I do not trust non-Jews to follow the conventions they sign. And they haven’t.

  • gonzo marx

    Ruvy..
    last i’ll say on this, your statement is your own, and the consequences for making it lie upon your shoulders

    you miss my point…i’ll not asink to the level of a beast to fight a beast..i will stand on two legs even in the face of death…i have done so, and proudly bear the scars

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior?

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy…..

    “There he goes again” RR

    You keep building a case against you and your “dual citizenshup” perps! In addition, maybe we should be reporting you to the Anti-Defamation League for these gems..
    “you non-Jews have been barbaric bastards when waging war.”

    “And I do not trust non-Jews to follow the conventions they sign. And they haven’t.”

    So Ruvy, please explain,does the Israeli army have a couple of platoons of “non-jews” to do all their dirty work…they must according to you!

    AND MOST OF ALL YOU SHOULD BE KISSIN THE ASS OF ALL THE “NON JEW” BARBARIANS WHO DESTROYED THAT GERMAN MAD MAN…(REMEMBER HITLER???) AND LIBERATED EUROPE AND LETS ME REMIND YOU HAVE SEEMED TO FORGOTTEN….AND FREED ALL THOSE “NON CHRISTIANS” IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS.”

    Please lets stop with the selective memory and revision of history!

  • JustOneMan

    Hey Gonzo…

    “There he goes again” RR

    The number of times you mention your hmmmm a…”inserv”….seems to be on the rise….

  • gonzo marx

    JoM…now yer inferring shit i didn’t type..please quote yer reference…it ain’t there, you are assuming rather than reading what was actually typed

    typical for this Incarnation for you

    try harder

    Excelsior?

  • JustOneMan

    ” will stand on two legs even in the face of death…i have done so, and proudly bear the scars”

    Must be the war injury you refernce or maybe its the “fog of war”

    Tell me about your scars?

  • troll

    jom – military service is not the only way to defend integrity and be scarred in the process…

    wake up

    troll

  • JustOneMan

    So what are we talking about when we reference the “will stand on two legs even in the face of death”…street fighting…a duel at 20 paces?

    Explain….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    JOM writes,

    “So Ruvy, please explain,does the Israeli army have a couple of platoons of “non-jews” to do all their dirty work…they must according to you!”.

    A lot of the real dirty work the IDF has done in the last couple of years or so – kicking Jews out of their homes – has been done by platoons of soldiers/police who are not Jews. Enough of us on site know enough languages to know when there is a foreigner there. So the answer to the above is “yes”.

    Ariel Sharon got elected in 2001 because lots of Israelis know that as a yong man, he commanded a unit that massacred an entire Arab village. So they believed he was the man to end Arab terror. But, as anyone can see, he wasn’t.

    JOM continues, screaming now,

    “LET ME REMIND YOU[, YOU] HAVE SEEMED TO FORGOTTEN….AND FREED ALL THOSE ‘NON CHRISTIANS’ IN THE CONCENTRATION CAMPS.”

    The German military code was cracked long before the Germans dropped the first bombs on Poland in 1939. And knowledge of this code finally came into common use in the war effort against them around 1941 and helped the British stop the Germans in North Africa.

    The key point about knowing somebody else’s code is not to let himn know that fact. So silence on certain things (like bombing railroad tracks leading to concentration camps) was essential. But after D-day and the invasion of France, it was no longer that essential to security. Nevertheless, in spite of the fact that the Americans knew exactly what was going on with the slaughter of my people, not to mention Gypsies and homosexuals, American bombers never once struck a track leading to a concentration camp, or struck a concentration camp. I don’t know what that tells you, but it tells me that the American administration (those who were let in on the massive slaughter the Nazis had undertaken) was very content to see Jews killed. So the American government was quite willing to fire-bomb civilians in Dresden, but Jewish lives were not worth the effort of saving.

    Go read my article “Dependence Day in Jerusalem” and concentrate on comment #11 there – I will not waste my time retyping it here – and learn why I feel no gratitude towards the United States government at all.

  • gonzo marx

    JoM…you ask for something, but offer only vitriol in exchange

    too bad, but you just made it into a relatively exclusive club

    /ignore

    Excelsior?

  • http://blogs.epicindia.com/leapinthedark Richard Marcus

    Well it was an interesting conversation for a while, how about we get back on to topic and stop slaging each other now.

    Ruvey, I have to respect your opinion becuase you live in a circumstance that I can not comprehend. If people were to read your comments closely though they will realize you are probably more sympathetic to muslims than most of the so called liberal press in North America and Europe.

    Your enemy are the cowards who have no compunction of blowing up non-combatants and calling it an act of heroism and they should be the enemy of all of us. I did not once refer to those shits as guerrilas or insurgents- those are two different creatures.

    A guerrila conducts war against soldiers not against civillians, it’s just his tactics are not those of the battle field- hit and run suprise ambushes to demoralize and invader or occupying force. It started with the Spaninsh in the Napoleonic Wars, and had continued on down through French Resitance and Yugoslave, Russian, and any other partisan groups during the Second World War; The Stern and Irgun who fought for Israeli independance(and comitted a couple of atrocities along the way unfortunately) the Viet Cong, oh and Ronald Regan’s favourite the Contras.

    It all depends, when talking about forces like that, which side of the fence you are on if they are evile terrorist, or the bravest fighters for freedom since our founding fathers (Regan’s descritption of the Contras: folks who had no problem wipping out vilages of peasent farmers and blowing up schools- I lost friends to those pricks)

    What I was arguing that if you want to win the war killing a couple of people aint going to do it on its own, and so maybe we were agreeing on that point. I wasn’t arguing against killing the guy, I was arguing the fact that simply killing the guy really isn’t going to accomplish anything without providing an alternative solution to the conditions that produce powere hungry jerks like the bin Ladens of the world. If there are not people willing to listen to them, then they don’t exist except as farts in the wind.

    So we create a situation where people don’t have a reason to listen to them, or at least have something else to listen to. Right now we aren’t so we will continue to lose the war on terror.

    Shalom Ruvey

    Oh and I don’t think Ruvey was slighting any contributions that anybody made during World War two, he was simply refering to the history before that conflict, and how all the great democracies of the world had no space for Jewish refugees in 1938 when they were desperate to flee Europe, and they were forced to stay there and die by the millions until they were “saved” in 1945.

    That’s all for now, play nice everybody

    Richard

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy…

    “I feel no gratitude towards the United States government at all.”

    F–K YOU…you wouldnt be here if it wasnt for all those boys who lost their lives…you who is alive today to worship your GOD, breath fresh air and raise a family anywhere you want…while those that liberated your family are six feet under somewhere on the battle field…

    Remeber if it werent for this country that you despise so much their wouldnt be an Israel..

    Ruvy, you have revealed yourself as a pathetic human being always playing the part of the “Victim”…this is the reason why “dual citizenship” is crap…you my in my opinion..are actual an enemy of America…no better than those that strap explosives around their bellies and kill innocent people riding a bus to work!

    In addition—dont spread any left wing Israeli propaganda–those are Jewish soldiers–yes those Jewish soldiers worship the same GOD that you do– that are “kicking Jews out of their homes”

    Ruvy…your have proven yourself to be a “fake, phoney, fraud”

    PS–have you recieved your welfare check and food stamps this month – courtesy of the American tax payer…

  • JustOneMan

    Bozo….I have to remember your technique..rather than answer a question…just randomly type words to look like a sentence…

    Hmmmm creative…

    Bozo…where the scars…knee burns and a sore throat?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    JOM,

    “A fool proclaims himself to be a fool” (Ecclesiastes), and that is exactly what you are doing.

    Your trigger quick response proves that you have not even taken the trouble to even read what I’ve written on Blog Critics (Gonzo sends me to movies and books I can’t afford to buy – but he at least writes like the gentleman he is, even if he doesn’t agree with me and is disgusted with my viewpoint).

    “Left wing Israeli propaganda?” You’ve made my day! I won’t bother rebutting you – not because I can’t or do not have the evidence – I most assuredly do – but because you will not read what I send. It is not worth the bother.

    As King Solomon wrote over three thousand years ago, thinking of you, “a fool proclaims himself a fool.”

    End of discussion.

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy…say what?

    1. You dont have a moral high ground because you use bible quotes. Stop hiding behind your religion and address the issues – the smoke screen isnt working!

    2. Every time I press you to justify your position your standard response is to push traffic to your blog site…

    3. I belive I have revealed you for what you really are…a misguided…ingnoramis…who can only throw stones and not debate the issues…

    4. Heres a quote worthy of a low life like you

    “Oh! I didn’t realize it was happy hopping moron day!” Sponge Bob

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Richard, you wrote,

    “I don’t think Ruvy was slighting any contributions that anybody made during World War two, he was simply refering to the history before that conflict, and how all the great democracies of the world had no space for Jewish refugees in 1938 when they were desperate to flee Europe, and they were forced to stay there and die by the millions until they were “saved” in 1945.”

    Richard, you do a mitzva by trying to make peace. Unfortunately, I was “slighting” the contributions of the American GOVERNMENT to the defeat of the Nazis. I was driving home – with a sledgehammer – the point that the United States acted with barbarous atrocity in WWII and does so today in Iraq as well.

    Unlike so many others, I wasn’t screaming bloody murder, complaining or making moral condemnations. WWII has been over for a little while now, Nam ended a generation ago and even the beginning of the Gulf War (1990) recedes into the memory like the Meiji dynasty did a century ago. I was merely trying to get others to see the truth in its unvarnished, unglorified form.

    That can be a hard sell. Gonzo is a veteran of the US armed forces. I do not know if he faced combat duty, but he implies ever so indirectly that he has. So whle he disagrees with me in principle, I have to respect his viewpoint. He has laid his ass on the line for his country and he deserves that respect.

    JOM curses at me like someone who may have served in Korea or during WWII. I know that my father-in-law, who was a veteran of WWII, would disown us if I pushed these points of view on him. Good thing my family is not reading this…

    It can be real hard for a veteran to distinguish between the GOVERNMENT he served and himself…

  • JustOneMan

    “Good thing my family is not reading this…”
    hmmm an embarrassment to your family to?

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Astonishing how fast a discussion on this site can go from genuine intellectual process to “Fuck you”s and cheap shots.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Yeah Mike,

    You’re right. Let’s try to bring this round to the original topic out of respect for the author of the article.

    It is not really possible to have a war on ideas. Wars on crime, drugs, illiteracy, gambling, what have you, are no more than publicity stunts. A war on terror is the same.

    Thus, one is forced to ask what the US is doing in Mesopotamia. A publicity stunt with so many deaths, not just of the Americans, but of the natives, is not a mere stunt any longer.

    One is forced to wonder why Al Qaeda central is moving so fast to absorb and integrate the Iraqi branch of the operation, headed by the late al-Zarqawi. I raised the issue earlier. A snitch loyal to bin-Ladin ratted on al-Zarqawi’s location and the Americans blew him away.

    Given that George HW Bush is a mere headwaiter for the Saud family, and given that the bin-Ladins and the Bushes are friends, this may well be possible, in my eyes.

  • JustOneMan

    Using ruffys logic heres another one thats just a plausable….

    Maybe Bin Ladin is really a Mossad secret agent…Israel is using him to pull the US into a war with their enemies and do the work that they are too incompetent to do! Its all starting to make sense now…all they had to do was hijack a couple of planes….pure genius

    He ruffy…at least bush is the head waiter…its better than cleaning toilets like you and the rest of your ilk!