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Liberals Must Squash Republican Right Wing Talking Points

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The Republican right wing are great corruptors of the truth. Their talking points have already been published. They are all over the airwaves, the blogosphere, the websites, and newspapers with a consistent message. It is imperative that bloggers, liberal or otherwise, do not allow their false talking points to metastasize into the public’s psyche. Each mis-statement, lie, or truth twisting must be addressed immediately with documented facts.

Irv Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, was indicted yesterday on five counts in the investigation concerning the illegal outing of Valerie Plame, a covert CIA agent. The counts include obstruction of justice, lying to the FBI, and perjury.

The reason for the outing of the CIA agent was twofold. The first was a misleading attempt to discredit Joe Wilson, Ms. Plame’s husband for his statements against the Iraq war and his subsequent New York Times Article stating that his trip to Niger found no evidence of Iraq’s purchase of uranium. This would remove a major justification for any preemptive war with Iraq. The second reason for the outing seemed to be punitive. It would ensure that critics understand that any measures would be used against dissention. Judging from the behavior of the press, and most mainstream organizations, this “communist/Stalinist” behavior was successful as everyone feared confronting the Bush administration significantly on any issue whether it be the Iraq war, the Patriot Act, irresponsible tax cuts and more.

Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Newt Gingrich, Bill Bennett, and many other Right Wing hacks have been using the following talking points. It is imperative that they be refuted continuously. Unfortunately if falsehoods are repeated without being countered by truths, most Americans tend to accept it as true fact.

  • RNC Talking Point: Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is creating the “criminalization of politics”.
  • Truth: This investigation and indictment has nothing to do with politics. It is about the illegal outing of CIA agents, and subsequently the lying to FBI agents, perjury, and obstruction of justice.
  • RNC Talking Point: There was no indictment on outing of CIA agent so there was no original crime.
  • Truth: The reason perjury and obstruction of justice is such a major crime is that one cannot find the underlying crime if the investigation is stymied by said crimes.
  • RNC Talking Point: Senate commission confirmed that Joe Wilson’s article was a lie or never accepted.
  • Truth: This is an utterly false statement. Read here for more background.
  • RNC Talking Point: Valerie Plame sent her husband Joe Wilson to Niger to research the uranium claim which opened her to scrutiny.
  • Truth: The statement is patently misleading and is simply used to change the conversation. Read here for more background.
  • RNC Talking Point: Valerie Wilson was not really a covert agent/spy and many already new what she did.
  • Truth: The FBI up until yesterday could not find anyone who knew what she did prior to Novak’s column. Read here for more background.


Truth in Politics

Ed/Pub:LisaM

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  • http://www.blogazineworld.blogspot.com Greg Jones

    Great job P.T. You are absolutely correct. The radical right are masters of talking points. At times it seems that they are more concerned with ‘winning for their movement’ then they are concerned with what’s truly best for America and for the world. And what is sad is the number of Conservative followers who not only eat these talking points up as ‘the truth’ but they go around repeating them. Walk up to any Conservative and I guarantee you you’ll hear at least 3 or 4 talking points straight from talk radio or Hannity. It’s actually funny. The Cons are like a group of lost sheep being led by their radical talking point leaders. What’s even funnier is to watch as the ‘real’ truth slowly but surely unfolds, which not only contradicts their rediculous talking points, but shows the followers what a wicked and misleading path they have been following, thus the decline of the administration’s ratings…thus the decline of the power of false talking points.

  • demabloggery

    If they go after fitzpatrick or fitzgerald or whatever his name is it will be like doing after Edward Murrow.

  • Baronius

    Squash away. Most of those talking points are really weak. But I believe that last one is valid. You’re not covert based on your neighbours’ knowledge. Covert status is something that has to be granted and removed. Plame’s covert status was dropped after the Ames case, under the belief that her identity may have been compromised. Maybe her dinner buddies didn’t know what she did, but my friends don’t know what I do, because it’s boring and they don’t want to listen.

    A Chicago pol once told me that politicians never get caught for what they did; they get caught destroying evidence of that they did. It looks like what Libby did wasn’t a crime, but he committed crimes covering it up.

  • troll

    very interesting

    One needs the magic decoder to reveal the comments – truely a thread in which black is white

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Fixed now troll, thank you.

  • troll

    ignore the administration’s talking points –

    the best tactic for liberals – if they had an agenda – would be to generate their own points rather than:

    *Each misstatement, lie, or truth twisting must be addressed immediately with documented facts.*

    witness the never ending arguments here on BC between AG and Roger – Bennett – and anyone else who gets suckered in

    it makes little difference what argument or documentation one produces – belief is belief – and consistency in the service of the closed mind of a true believer is numbing – not only is resistance futile but rebuttal as well

    and when people generally are true believers and are baffled by an overload of bullshit from the get go who are you going to convince – ?

    take your doomed crusade to ‘get the facts straight’ off my bridge

    troll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Troll, they do have their own talking points. Just read the versions of the ‘truth’ at the links PT posted. Those are the leftist versions of what happened, and are not any more inherently valid than the republican versions.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    The difference is that the “rightists” have had a ruthlessly efficient communications structure in place for years, from print to radio to pundits and politicians singing in unison to the morning’s talking points.

    While it’s unfortunate, the only way to confront this effort is to combat it head on. And troll’s right in saying that not only must the left refute the right’s positions, they must offer an agenda of their own.

  • troll

    Eric – my point: liberals can’t refute the right’s positions because facts don’t have much power over beliefs – it could render the right ‘irrelevant’ in the light of a liberal agenda if it were to come up with one

    liberals have to make some serious proposals

    for example – Dave’s big government gas tax that would lead the market to alternative energy could serve as a cornerstone for a liberal agenda…which I guess has to be a plan in which government action enables humanism and the profit motive to co-exist

    the repubs tried to grab this ground with their ‘compassionate conservatism’ – but their hollow compassion gave way to passionate greed

    troll

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Troll — I agree, but at the same time it’s proven in American politics that unanswered attacks stick.

    I think energy policy, biotechnology, and independence from foreign oil can easily be the cornerstone of a campaign from either party. It ties into the economy and national security, two main items for almost every national election!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>The difference is that the “rightists” have had a ruthlessly efficient communications structure in place for years, from print to radio to pundits and politicians singing in unison to the morning’s talking points.< <

    All I know is that despite every effort I've been unable to find any single source for GOP talking points or get anyone to email them to me. Yet, with minimum effort I've got three different left wing groups and two libertarian groups emailing me almost daily with talking points.

    >>While it’s unfortunate, the only way to confront this effort is to combat it head on. And troll’s right in saying that not only must the left refute the right’s positions, they must offer an agenda of their own.<<

    And as demonstrated by this post, if they’re going to try to refute right wing points, they need to do it by proving them wrong or breaking other issues that work to their benefit, not just by trying to spin the same facts a different way. That’s transparently weak.

    The problem is that the american left as represented by the Democratic party has nothing to offer that’s original or different enough to form a unique and attractive agenda. Only the environmental extreme element of the green party has an agenda that’s marketable, and it’s not comprehensive enough to support a full political campaign.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    As the minority party, the Democrats simply have to offer a competent, palatable alternative. And they have the next 12 months to do that.

    And as demonstrated by this post, if they’re going to try to refute right wing points, they need to do it by proving them wrong or breaking other issues that work to their benefit, not just by trying to spin the same facts a different way. That’s transparently weak.

    If facts are getting spun in a manner not to your liking, wouldn’t you try to “spin” them back in a manner you see as both truthful and beneficial to your side? Your argument, in my view, does not hold.

  • RogerMDillon

    Thanks for the mention, troll. I’ll refer back to this comment when you and Nalle are going in circles about Iraq.

    Also, please point me to any argument or documentation that AG has used to change your mind on a subject, so I can learn by example from the transformation.

    take your faux-openmindedness of my bridge

    t.i.t. (troll in training)

  • http://dfgdf@aol.com Cunning Linguist

    Since when do you [edited] left [edited] give a shit about the CIA or anyone it employs. Get ready for round 3. Bush is going to pick an ultra conservative nominee for the supreme court and is based is ready to support. We have had enough “progressive” bullshit. Any of you [edited] have a problem with it that’s too damn bad!

    You don’t want a conservative court justice? Just try and stop us. Any of your commie Dem buddies up on the hill try and filibuster and you can bet your red ass we will go nuclear on you. Time for you [edited] and the party that actually won the election get some work done.

    Get ready for war [edited]!

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    [edited]

    I would like to add “baby killing” to that list Cunning Linguist.

    You know what the funning thing about C.L.’s statement????

    It isn’t an insult to you left wing commies. [edited]

  • troll

    Roger – don’t mistake me for an open minded troll or one that would discourage your skirmishing with AG

    CL – I look forward to the nuclear destruction of the filibustor…it will make things interesting when the Green Party gains the majority

    troll

  • http://whitesnow99@msn.com patricia white

    uhhhh…..Sorry Cunning, but Freedom of Speech includes us low-life liberal democrats too. You will just have to bear up!

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Political Truth, go through the entire Blogcritics site and find out who is doing the name calling.

    Who is taking away rights and getting into our personal rights???

    The Liberals. Roe v. Wade states that a state DOESN’T HAVE THE CHOICE to decide for itself to if abortion is o.k. Liberal judges have decided that a doctor DOESN’T HAVE THE CHOICE to decide for himself/herself to perform an abortion or not.

    The Conservatives are not getting into personal lives. We say that a woman cannot kill a baby. It is not personal because the baby is also involved. Me killing my Nazi neighbor is not personal because my Nazi neighbor is also invovled.

    The Conservatives are not getting into personal lives. We say that a man cannot smoke marijuana because it is not personal he is hurting and endangering everyone around him.

  • http://bonamassablog.us Joanie

    I will step in quickly and briefly to say that Cunning Linguist and Anthony Grande have one more chance to clean it up. Personal attacks are NOT allowed. Either play nice or your comments will be edited to meet BC comment policy guidelines.

  • http://winston_jen@yahoo.com.au Winston Jen

    What are you talking about, Anthony? Doctors don’t have to perform abortions if they don’t want to (then again, with all the pro-life abortion clinic bombers, many are too scared to).

    If you hate the ‘harm’ that marijuana causes, why are you so lenient on second-hand smoke? Oh yeah, your tobacco buddies send a lot of money your way.

    If you don’t want a woman to ‘kill’ a baby, then I say that you must donate a lung so that people don’t die because there aren’t enough lungs for transplanting. Fair?

  • troll

    what personal attacks – I see no personal attacks from AG or CL here

    troll

  • http://winston_jen@yahoo.com.au Winston Jen

    CL’s attacks weren’t really personal… he swept pretty much every liberal with the same brush.

  • RogerMDillon

    Cunning the Sane and Sensible,

    You have to be kidding with the nuclear option. Do you not remember the group of 14? The Dems gave in to one conservative, but will be granted a filibuster if they chosse to have one.

    Also, you don’t take into account Bush might be a tad annoyed about the undermining by his base and might use this opportunity to push back to say who is in charge.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony the Sane and Sensible

    Roger,

    I got a secret to tell you (don’t tell anyone else). I am MARK THE SANE AND SENSIBLE.

    Shhhhhhhhhhh!!! No one is supposed to know.

    I am also post as Practical Joe.

    Shhhhhhhhhhh!!! I know you are going to tell.

    I also post as, believe it or not, Winston Jen and Troll.

    Shhhhhhhhhhh!!!

    Fine, I will say it: Me and you are the only ones here. I made up EVERYONE!!!

    SAY IT ALL YOU WANT!!! YOU WILL ONLY BE TALKING TO YOURSELF!!!

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    There were indeed personal attacks in those comments because they were referring to other commenters on this thread. It’s still a personal attack if it’s aimed a group of specific persons.

  • http://ddfdfg@aol.com Cunning Linguist

    Political truths I do know who is trying to take away our rights. The Liberals

    I’ll use the example of Kelo versus New London that was recently decided by the Supreme Court. In deciding the case it was the liberal judges who rules in favor of the city of New London so that they could seize private property and give it to business. It was the conservative justices who dissented.

    Then after the decision Howard Dean goes on TV and tells people that “George Bush’s right wing supreme court is trying to take your rights away,” referring to Kelo versus New London. Actually when the case had been decided George Bush hadn’t made a single appointment to the supreme court. So it was hardly Bush’s Court. And as I mentioned it was the liberal justices who sided with New London. How’s that for a liberal talking point Politicaltruths?

    This is who you want leading your party?

    I know Dean is who I want leading the Dem party.

    And as for you Roger, I doubt Bush will take this opportunity to “push back.” He’s starting to get the message and he knows that you pinkos would never support him no matter what he does so he will do what he needs to do satisfy his conservativebase otherwise he will be facing a very long and troubling remainder of his 2nd term.

  • http://winston_jen@yahoo.com.au Winston Jen

    Just remember this, CL. When you are crying out for your rights to be defended, remember that you opposed gay rights, women’s rights, and the right to assisted suicide.

  • http://asfd@aol.com Cunning Linguist

    Show me where in my post I said I oppose those things Winston.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony the Sane and Sensible

    Bhw, I think I will choose this as my single name from now on. If I change my name I will let you know.

    I am a democrat and I am very happy with Dean leading my party.

    I can’t wait until we nominate him to run for president.

  • troll

    I object to such editorial heavy handedness – may Lenny’s spirit haunt your dreams tonight

    troll

  • http://winston_jen@yahoo.com.au Winston Jen

    You are very conservative, CL. That implies that you want government control in activities that you disapprove of, such as private drug use.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony the Sane and Sensible

    Winston, Gay Rights???

    What right do I have that gays don’t???

    Women’s Rights???

    What right are you specifically talking about???

  • Russell Imrie

    Until a few years ago (80’s) female CIA agents had to resign if they married. This did not apply to males. I think that dinosaurs/macho men like Cheney are having their own self-fulfilling prophecy day with exposing Wilson’s wife, Valerie. They resent the way things have changed and don’t care as much about Valerie’s mission/job as they do with fulfilling their own fantasies and empire building.

  • RogerMDillon

    I supported him until he started with the litany or errors and mistakes, but of course anyone who uses critical thinking is a “pinko”, while the mindless sheep are considered patriots.

    He is already facing a very long and troubling 2nd term and it won’t get better for a while.

  • http://fsdf@aol.com Cunning Linguist

    Yes “pinko” Roger.

    If it quacks like a duck it must be a duck.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony the Sane and Sensible

    Cheney and his crew are against Wilson because she is a women???

    No. It is because she lied about what really happened in Nigeria.

    Roger, he is having a hard second term??? Isn’t that what you guys said about his first term when he was up for re-election???

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>If facts are getting spun in a manner not to your liking, wouldn’t you try to “spin” them back in a manner you see as both truthful and beneficial to your side? Your argument, in my view, does not hold.<<

    Spinning the facts your way is a reasonable defensive response, but that can’t be all you have to offer. The problem the Demos have and have had for quite a while is a complete inability to offer appealing alternatives that people believe in. It may be a fundamental flaw in the party, because the only people who have new ideas are extremists who can’t offer them in a mainstream-enough way to appeal to the general public.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    I think “complete inability” is hyperbolic and is, in fact… spin! Bush needed the Supreme Court in ’00 and had a modest victory a year ago in an environment whipped into a frenzy of fear and… spin (see: Swift Boats), etc.

    And to counter the spin: the Dems have plenty of good ideas, and I believe they’ll put together a very solid agenda in ’06.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>And to counter the spin: the Dems have plenty of good ideas, and I believe they’ll put together a very solid agenda in ’06.<<

    Let’s hear a few that are both ‘good’ ideas and also acceptable to the general public.

    Dave

  • http://winston_jen@yahoo.com.au Winston Jen

    If the Dems propose a Roe vs. Wade referendum-style law for assisted suicide, they stand a good chance in the blue states. It passed in Oregon, after all.

  • RogerMDillon

    Not really a cunning comeback, but so few on the right are known for their wit or intelligence, so I’m not surprised.

  • http://asfsd@aol.com Cunning Linguist

    Yeah we’re just known for winning elections in the past 12 years Roger.

  • RogerMDillon

    I’m sorry, what office did you run for? You are no different than a sports fan who has jumped on the bandwagon of the front runner. When you actuallly accomplish something then you can use “we.”

  • http://aqualung@bresnan.net MCH

    Agreed Roger, he’s a front runner and a phoney.

    Just like he “supports” the war, as long as it’s someone else risking their necks over there…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry Winston, I like the idea, but you can’t pass it as a law on a national level, it’s too controversial. Dems would slit their wrists by endorsing something like that. They need new, realistic plans on existing major issues.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Polls consistently indicate that the majority of the American people are on the side of Democrats on most major issues, particularly on the domestic agenda. And of course the President and Congress’ poll numbers have sunk across the board of late.

    Republicans have been better lately at mobilizing their base, there’s no doubt. Additionally, they’ve used national security as a weapon effectively.

    But all indications are that many of the advantages that the GOP has enjoyed this decade are slipping away. If I were a GOP strategist, I’d be anything but over-confident right now. The best news for them is that 2006 is a year away.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Eric, if most people are pro-Democrat, how do you explain that independents tend to vote republican about 70-30?

    What’s really going on here is that if you go issue by issue people support the democrats on more issues than the republicans, but if you rate the issues by importance to the actual voters then on the ones they consider make or break issues – particularly economic issues – they favor the republicans.

    The unspoken truth is that most of the middle class people who make up the bulk of the voting population don’t really give a rat’s ass about Roe vs. Wade or the environment or health insurance for poor people who don’t vote – though they do have nominal positions on these issues. They REALLY care about their paycheck, their tax bill and how the stock market is doing. So the republicans win again and again.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    I agree that people tend to vote their pocket book, though security issues were a gut check issue in ’04, which hurt the Dems for a variety of reasons (some fair, some not).

    I don’t know where you’re getting that independents vote Republican by a 70-30 margin. That sounds completely out of whack to me. In fact, if you go by the conventional wisdom that roughly 1/3 of the voting public are Dems, 1/3 Republicans, and 1/3 Independent, it’s impossible for those figures to be correct given the popular outcome of the election.

  • Dave Nalle

    As of the last election there were slightly more voters claiming to be Democrats than Republicans – like 42% to 35%. The remaining 23% are Independents. So 35 republicans plus 70% of 23 independents (16) equals 51% of the total vote. Of course, there were also crossover votes. 8-15% of each party usually crosses over and votes the other way. Less in 2004 as I recall. But those folks usually cancel each other out.

    Dave

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Dave, your numbers are completely wrong.

    From CNN:

    * 37% of voters identified themselves as Democrats, 37% Republicans, and 26% Independents.

    * Dems went 11% for Bush, 89% for Kerry
    * Repubs went 93% for Bush, 6% for Kerry
    * Independents went 48% for Bush, 49% for Kerry

    Thus, one of the main storylines of the 2004 election was that in a tightly divided nation, the Republicans (led by Rove in this effort) were able to mobilize their conservative base to an unprecedented extent.

    Kerry went for the middle, won narrowly, yet still lost the popular vote by several percentage points.

  • Dave Nalle

    My numbers came from a Gallup poll conducted right before the 04 election. Your CNN numbers are from the exit polls which have already been established as having been crap. And those party breakdowns just don’t match what’s generally reported. Virtually every poll except for that exit poll has the Democrats with more acknowledged adherents than the GOP. There’s a Harris Poll site which shows the historic pattern of democrat and republican allegiance. As for the independent voters, the 70/30 split is typical in local and state elections. It may be closer in national elections.

    Dave

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    The Gates of Hell have been unleashed as news reports have leaked the name of Samuel Alito as the new nominee. He is a darling of the uber-conservatives and in some circles is referred to as “Scalito”. This is just what we need — a Scalia clone. The White House will have given their conservative backers a candidate they can orgasm to. George W. Bush may very well have fired the shot that will cause this nation to go into Civil War. I honestly don’t think that I am that far off base in making the charge. If SCOTUS whittles away at certain civil liberties and proceeds to overturn Roe v. Wade that will get the ball rolling. The final nail in the coffin will be the outlawing of “gay marriage”. There will be civil unrest like nothing that has been seen since the 60’s. Perhaps, GWB is doing us a favor by nominating this guy. It will be just enough to get the American people to wake up and smell the oil spill.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Silas, you’re overreacting just a teensy wee bit, aren’t you? Another Scalia isn’t exactly a disaster. Scalia has been far more reliable in upholding the constitution than several of the other justices. Plus, Alito has a history of supporting basic abortion rights, so on that issue there’s not going to be a major problem unless you believe in the absolute right to partial birth abortion. Even more importantly, Alito has ruled in support of constitutional precedent and the idea of established law a number of times.

    It’ll take a lot more than this to spark popular outrage. Further outraging the extreme left who already exist in a state on continual systematic outrage isn’t going to change anything.

    Dave

  • http://counter-point.blogspot.com Scott

    I believe Eric’s numbers. I mean, Independents vote for Republicans 70/30? That doesn’t ring true.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Independents don’t vote 70/30 Republican in every election, just on certain issues and in the 2004 presidential election. They tend to break down that way on economic issues, and break the other way, like 60/40 for the Democrats on social issues. But in a national election economic issues trump social issues, which most people assume are more a matter of state politics.

    Dave

  • troll

    this discussion of numbers is nice but the question remains – what good ideas are the Dems floating to make their (non-existent) agenda attractive for 06 and 08 – ?

    take your diversionary polls off my bridge

    troll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I believe their main campaign idea is ‘Bush is Hitler’ which isn’t going to get them very far in 08 when he’s not running.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    I hate to say it, Silas, but I don’t think most Americans are so concerned with gay rights that they’d be either outraged or that it will cause civil unrest, and there aren’t enough gays/lesbians to create that kind of disturbance, either. People will “tsk-tsk” & go back to worrying about gas prices, if they react at all. For most, if they’re not gay, it’s not an issue. I’ll have to agree w/Dave on this one. Sorry.

  • troll

    A virus free chicken in every pot and a hybrid car in every zoning approved garage

    Vote (?) – (s)he is not a crook

    troll

  • http://counter-point.blogspot.com Scott

    The one big issue I can think of on the Dem agenda that will come up in ’08 is universal healthcare.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    If the best they can come up with is another rapacious socialized solution to healthcare then they’re doomed as usual.

    Dave

  • http://counter-point.blogspot.com Scott

    Wishful thinking as usual for you Dave. What exactly do the Republicans have to run on in ’06? Bupkis. Except to say “I’m with you guys, I don’t support Bush either.” and “We’ve only begun to drive this country into the ground!”

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Dave, your position still makes no sense:

    My numbers came from a Gallup poll conducted right before the 04 election. Your CNN numbers are from the exit polls which have already been established as having been crap. And those party breakdowns just don’t match what’s generally reported. Virtually every poll except for that exit poll has the Democrats with more acknowledged adherents than the GOP. There’s a Harris Poll site which shows the historic pattern of democrat and republican allegiance. As for the independent voters, the 70/30 split is typical in local and state elections. It may be closer in national elections.

    The Harris link you provided doesn’t talk about a 70/30 split I can see.

    But the fact remains that, given the outcome, it’s impossible for independents to have voted for Bush in the numbers you’ve alleged. And the CNN exit polling of more than 13,000 voters backs me and the established conventional wisdom espoused after the election.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    …I don’t think most Americans are so concerned with gay rights …

    I totally agree, Nancy. That’s why it is the third item in my litany. I don’t think I’m over reacting by any stretch at this stage. Think about it for a moment. What if this new SCOTUS hands down some extremely conservative rulings that give law enforcement and government broader control over our civil rights? On top of that, what if they then overturn Roe v. Wade? Beyond that, the gay marriage issue would just be icing on the cake. I honestly think that an over zealous conservative court would lead to civil unrest. There’s a quiet sense of uneasiness in the nation right now. The President’s popularity is at an all time low. We’re the kind of people that tend to ignore problems until the manure hits the fan. Right now, the fan is turned on and the manure is positioned to be flung.

  • Nancy

    I’ve come to the unhappy conclusion, Silas, that most Americans these days are incurably, deeply apathetic – even when it’s their own hides at stake. Otherwise, they should have been raising hell about all these breaks for the oil companies, etc. long, long ago. It’s not like it was in the 60’s or 70’s, when you could get a couple hundred thousand marching almost at the drop of a hat. I think Ipods & electronic games have fried what few brains they were born with.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Lord, Nancy, I think you may be on to something. I was watching news accounts of the folks in Florida in the aftermath of Wilma. They were talking about hardly being able to survive without plumbing, electricity and gasoline. Um, folks, what would you have done previous to 1900? We’re a spoiled, self-indulgent society. We have come to expect that all the modern conveniences are a Constitutional right. Kids aren’t happy without their X-box, iPod, PS2 and toll free number to Children’s Services. Parents don’t parent any more — they are too busy working 3.5 jobs to pay for the modern conveniences, day care and baby sitters for their kids. If a kid had to go without a video game for longer than 24 hours it’s like dealing with a heroin addict that ran out of smack. Americans are just a blown up power plant away from returning to candles and talking to each other.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Silas, there’s no constitutional right to gay marriage. There’s no constitutional right to a government authorized marriage of any sort. What the Supreme Court ought to do when faced with a gay marriage case is strike down state sanctioned marriage laws alltogether and say that people are free to associate and form contractual relationships regardless of relative gender. That would be a true, conservative position.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    There was a recent item on one of the radio news reports of a study that showed that people these days (especially those under 40) are almost totally unable to either handle silence or entertain themselves without electronic prompts, and a scarey percentage are unable to feed themselves without access to convenience foods, fast food, or microwaves! Good God!

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I agree, Dave. There’s no Constitutional right to ANY marriage. The bottom line is that marriage is a contract in secular terms. Two people should have the right to enter into that contract regardless of all the broo-ha-ha. Unfortunately, we will have a Supreme Court with two rabid Catholics (Scalia and Scalita). The conservatives will be in the majority though I sense that the Chief Justice will not be a puppet of Conservatism. There’s something about him that I sense is different. Maybe Bill Maher is right in his assumptions of the good C.J.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Dave, if you could respond to my last comment when you get a chance, that would be super.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    What is there to respond to, Eric? You don’t agree. You’d rather believe a poll which came up with the wrong outcome to the election and then had to be fixed after the fact. The basic truth here is that people lie in exit polls and they’ve been proven to be among the most innacurate. I have more faith in polls taken in true anonymity where people are more dispasionate and have no motivation to lie.

    >>The Harris link you provided doesn’t talk about a 70/30 split I can see.< <

    That comes from a Gallup poll which I don't have the original link for, but it's borne out by a number of other polls which ask people how they were planning to vote in 2004 and break it down by party affiliation, including 'independent'.

    >>But the fact remains that, given the outcome, it’s impossible for independents to have voted for Bush in the numbers you’ve alleged.< <

    Why? I did the math based on that Harris poll and it works out exactly right.

    >>And the CNN exit polling of more than 13,000 voters backs me and the established conventional wisdom espoused after the election. <<

    The established conventional wisdom is that the exit polls are completely worthless.

    Dave

  • Non Phixion

    This country is fucked.

  • Non Phixion

    I hope you fucking parties are happy putting yourselves above the people. Thanks for being such as great help. I’m gonna piss on the walls of the police station now and take a shit on the steps of my grandmother’s steps now. I won’t do much, but i don’t have the guns to shoot the president yet. You wait ’til i get my unemployment check. Protect ya groin. Ka-pow.

  • steve

    non phixion…you are a prime example of everything that is wrong with this country.

    Liberals cannot squash republican right wing talking points. they have no distinct leaders at this point. when they do attempt to make a point, they usually just point fingers rather than offering solutions.

  • Nancy

    Much as I hate to agree with you, Steve, I must, but I would specify ‘the Democratic party’ instead of liberals generally. It’s a shame & a scandal the way that party can’t get its act together after 5 years & the kind of outright political windfall GIFTS they’ve been given lately by the Republicans.

    Non-Phixion: take your meds.

  • steve

    as a staunch conservative…I also recognize a lack in democratic rebuttals to the opportunities that the republicans have been handing them on a silver platter. sad to say, I’m a bit ashamed of whats been going on with these conservative blunders.

    There are several suitable democratic leaders…such as Obama of whom are up and coming. To get back to the point though, Nancy…that is how Kerry lost the election. He did not really offer any solutions to the problems we are faced with in our nation today.

    I support bush…but I do not agree with everything he says or does. I think that John McCain would have been a finer leader than “w” should he have been put into the position. he is a bit more moderate and I believe that our country would have a stronger national identity. with all of the BS we are faced with, its as if you are on one side of the fence or the other. I cant stand this! I wish this would change.

    I agree with our trip to Afghanistan to overthrow the Taliban and hunt down al-Quaeda..but im not so sure about Iraq. Overall, I am not happy with the Iraqi conflict. I do believe that at this point, we must make the best of the situation. Iraq will either be one of our greatest triumphs or one of our greatest failures.

  • tcx

    Iraq will be the death of America. Those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it.

    We left Vietnam for two reasons:

    a) it got too expensive
    b) it got too bloody

    The problem, though, is that America has no way to repay the massive debt is has incurred. This is why the Soviet Union collapsed and it is why the Roman Empire collapsed. China, via Wal-Mart, etc. has destroyed American industry. Japan has destroyed our auto industry. India, Taiwan, and Japan have destroyed our IT industry. America really has nothing left but a massive consumer base. In simple terms, America has no way to produce, only consume.

    Here is how Iraq plays into this. We can’t leave Iraq unstable. The American public won’t allow it. Every day US soldiers are dying. Yet we can’t reinstate the draft because we have had the White House give us their word and the American public knows it.

    US soldiers will continue to die, we can never leave because the American people refuse to let this become another Vietnam (hey, we’re winners!), and the Iraqi insurgency continues to die via suicide so long as their lives remain in a hopeless state. How would you feel if another nation felt they had to liberate you from your own government? Not much pride in that.

    Let me leave one last bit of advice. Wake up.

    The closing of the senate was no accident yesterday. The democrats are finding it hard to gain any traction whatsoever against the republican power hegemony. This is not about political leanings. This is about We The People and our democracy dying at the hands of fascism.

    This is no conspiracy theory. But you can believe as you wish. There is deep corruption in the federal government and I promise you, America will not survive another three years.

    Finally, since many still refuse to believe. The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) is composed of the neo-conservatives. The neo-conservatives have been the driving force behind much of the American agenda for the past 15+ years, starting with the first Gulf War.

    The PNAC stated in public record that they needed a “Pearl Harbor” type event to get the ball rolling. The “get the ball rolling” means getting into Iraq.

    Okay, let me ask you this final question. What *sane* group of people creates a foreign policy which *depends* on Americans getting killed?

    Wake up NOW.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Are we all too blind and afraid to respond to tcx and the fantastic points made above?

    The problem, though, is that America has no way to repay the massive debt is has incurred. This is why the Soviet Union collapsed and it is why the Roman Empire collapsed…

    This is so true. G.W. Bush and his Administration has squandered the solid fiscal condition left behind by the Clinton Administration.

    China, via Wal-Mart, etc. has destroyed American industry… America has no way to produce, only consume.

    Another unsettling truth. We are so busy consuming that we’ve lost sight of all that really matters.

    The closing of the senate was no accident… This is about We The People and our democracy dying at the hands of fascism.

    Unfortunately, tcx, our democracy is dead and we haven’t gone through all the stages of grief yet. We haven’t let go but we have submitted by allowing those in political power to remain.

    There is deep corruption in the federal government and I promise you, America will not survive another three years.

    Another truth spoken. America, can’t you feel it? Look at how this world has seemed to completely fall apart since 2001. We’re the kind of people who ignore the warning signs. We seem to react when it’s too late. Let me ask you a serious question, America. Will your children inherit a country loaded with promise and opportunity as you did? We might as well conduct mass abortions now if this is the legacy we are to leave behind. Cruel as it sounds, how can we, in good conscience, leave behind such a complete and utter disaster? The greatest generation may be admirable but in their nurturing of the following generation they forgot one important copmponent: teaching character. In the end, the greatest generation may end up being the undoing of America. And it wasn’t done out of malice and forethought. It was done in the spirit of patriotism and love. The greatest generation became so blinded by the prospect of giving us a better life that they forgot to teach us that being an American has its responsibilities.

    …What *sane* group of people creates a foreign policy which *depends* on Americans getting killed?

    Damn if I know, tcx.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I missed TXX’s comments earlier, thanks for bringing them to my attention, Silas.

    The problem, though, is that America has no way to repay the massive debt is has incurred. < <

    Which is why we never recovered from the deficit spending of the Roosevelt, Johnson and Reagan administrations all of which generated more debt as a percentage of GDP than the current administration. Right?

    >>This is why the Soviet Union collapsed and it is why the Roman Empire collapsed. China, via Wal-Mart, etc. has destroyed American industry. Japan has destroyed our auto industry. India, Taiwan, and Japan have destroyed our IT industry. < <

    Do you think that saying these things will make them true or do you just wish that they were true?

    >>America really has nothing left but a massive consumer base. In simple terms, America has no way to produce, only consume.< <

    From the very first America has always been a nation based on consumerism. It was the mainstay of the economy in the colonial period and has always remained that way. The idea of 'balance of trade' is completely bogus. It doesn't matter how a nation makes money, so long as money comes in and the people have jobs and get fed.

    >>Here is how Iraq plays into this. We can’t leave Iraq unstable. The American public won’t allow it. Every day US soldiers are dying. Yet we can’t reinstate the draft because we have had the White House give us their word and the American public knows it.< <

    Ah, a conundrum. The only answer is that we have to succeed. How ironic.

    >>US soldiers will continue to die, we can never leave because the American people refuse to let this become another Vietnam (hey, we’re winners!), and the Iraqi insurgency continues to die via suicide so long as their lives remain in a hopeless state.< <

    This would the the lives of the insurgents, not the Iraqi people, of course. By all accounts the Iraqi people are doing just fine and getting better every day.

    >> How would you feel if another nation felt they had to liberate you from your own government? Not much pride in that.< <

    Pretty damned glad that someone was willing to take the risk, lose the lives and spend the money. Take a trip to Iraq the Model sometime.

    >>The closing of the senate was no accident yesterday.< <

    True, it was an inspired act of grandstanding.

    >> The democrats are finding it hard to gain any traction whatsoever against the republican power hegemony. This is not about political leanings. This is about We The People and our democracy dying at the hands of fascism.< <

    Which sounds great except for the utter lack of evidence to support this statement straight out of the Democratic Underground talking points.

    >>This is no conspiracy theory. But you can believe as you wish. There is deep corruption in the federal government and I promise you, America will not survive another three years.< <

    The corruption may be real, but it's not new and we've survived it for a hell of a lot mroe than 3 years. It would be nice to see a ground-up purge of the federal bureaucracy, though.

    >>Finally, since many still refuse to believe. The Project for a New American Century (PNAC) is composed of the neo-conservatives. The neo-conservatives have been the driving force behind much of the American agenda for the past 15+ years, starting with the first Gulf War.< <

    Except that none of these initiatives they supposedly generated actually followed the game plan they have for world domination. If the PNAC is behind everything they sure aren't good at getting things done their way.

    >>The PNAC stated in public record that they needed a “Pearl Harbor” type event to get the ball rolling. The “get the ball rolling” means getting into Iraq.< <<

    It means a lot more than that. Iraq is only a small part of their plan - long ago abandonned plan, that is.

    >>Okay, let me ask you this final question. What *sane* group of people creates a foreign policy which *depends* on Americans getting killed?<<

    Now that just makes no sense at all. The war in Iraq isn’t based on getting Americans killed. If it could be concluded without deaths we’d do that in a second. Oddly enough, terrorists strike back when you try to wipe them out, so there’s risk involved in sorting out the Iraq situation and yes, people do die. But just killing our soldiers isn’t the objective as you suggest.

    Dave