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Joe West is Pathetic and Embarrassing

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"They're the two clubs that don't try to pick up the pace, They're two of the best teams in baseball. Why are they playing the slowest? It's pathetic and embarrassing. They take too long to play." — Joe West

With those idiotic and asinine words, Joe West demonstrated how outdated and out of touch some umpires are with the modern game. And in the process, he provided an outstanding piece of supporting evidence for the argument that an electronic strike zone would better serve the game than the men currently arbitrarily calling balls and strikes in personal floating strike zones.

West's comments should be "pathetic and embarrassing" to himself and baseball on multiple levels. On the surface they show the umpire's total lack of understanding of the game of baseball.

Joe was right about one thing. The Yankees and Red Sox are the two best teams in baseball. What he doesn't seem to comprehend is that the reasons those clubs carry such stature is because players on both teams don't swing at bad pitches, they work deep into counts, and quickly run up the pitch totals of superior starters to eventually beat on inferior bullpens. Adopting this overall philosophy of patience at the plate is one of the biggest differences between the powerful, plodding, and ultimately unsuccessful Red Sox and Yankees teams of the 80s and early 90s and the Theo Epstein/Brian Cashman teams of today. (That and seven combined World Series championships in the last 15 seasons.)

On another level, the humorous irony in West's comments cannot be ignored. One of the main reasons games are longer today than they were in the past — beyond intelligent plate discipline — is the smaller strike zone that umpires like West call (the former much a product of the latter). In the "old days" a hitter was ingrained with the cliché axiom of "swinging at anything close" with two strikes. In the modern game, hitters have been encouraged by the shrinking of the strike zone to take more pitches because they can. If the umpires called more strikes, hitters would take fewer pitches and the game would inevitably move faster, plain and simple.

But West blames the players for getting themselves set before an at bat or stepping out of the box between pitches or even for taking close pitches for balls. He blames them to the point that his crew began to refuse to call time for multiple hitters on both sides in the Sox/Yanks series. As Mariano Rivera mused, "What does he want us to do, swing at balls?"

The real issue here is an old, overweight umpire who apparently doesn't want to work for his money anymore. His one job, the single thing he is paid to do, is to stand on a baseball field and make calls. He literally watches baseball for a living. And yet this man wants it to go faster because apparently Joe West has something more important to do than his job.

Expanding the strike zone is one way to speed up the game. But the real fix will come when baseball inevitably gets rid of lazy complainers like West behind the plate and replaces them with a consistent, fixed strike zone called by a computer.

I know this idea will put the purists up in arms, arguing for their love of the floating strike zone and the randomness of balls and strikes contingent on who happens to be squatting behind the catcher. But the time for allowing games to be decided by people like West — who apparently don't even want to be there in the first place — should be over. Computers can project a consistent strike zone that every pitcher and hitter will understand, no matter the stadium, opponent, or league. The flow of the game would take care of itself. And more importantly, "embarrassing and pathetic" umpires like West would no longer decide the outcomes of crucial, season-changing games.

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About Anthony Tobis

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    All that … and it’s not really the umpire’s place to criticize teams in the media.

    I was curious, though, why AL East games are so long. You mentioned laying off close pitches and driving deeper counts. And yet:

    Pitches/AB (offense)
    Rockies 3.99
    Rays 3.96
    Red Sox 3.94
    Indians 3.93
    Angels 3.88
    Marlins 3.88
    Dodgers 3.88
    Yankees 3.88

    Pitches/AB (defense)
    Dodgers 3.92
    Red Sox 3.91
    Cubs 3.90
    Padres 3.90
    Rangers 3.89
    Tigers 3.89
    Giants 3.88
    Yankees 3.88

    I’m not sure where else to quickly gather data for game length, but I also remember some ridiculous scores (20-11, pour example) last year between the Sox and Yankees. Plus they had some extra inning games, and that’ll jack up a small sample size.

    In the end … it’s nice to find an issue that unites both Yankees and Red Sox fans.

  • zingzing

    was he really talking about batting discipline? i never got that idea, although i only read a couple of articles on the subject. i thought it was about batters calling a lot of timeouts and all the mound visits from catchers.

    “His one job, the single thing he is paid to do, is to stand on a baseball field and make calls.”

    that’s not true. he designed the umpire equipment that is used during mlb games, a country singer (he played with merle haggard, which is a pretty sweet gig) and is a golfer on the celebrity players tour, whatever that is.

    don’t get the idea i’m some joe west fan–i didn’t even know who he was til a week ago–but i don’t think he was complaining about bat discipline. and someone’s got to keep the game moving along. besides, he’s right. most 9-inning games are about 2.5 hours, not 3.5-4.

    and i say no to computerized strike zones and no to expanding the strike zone. even though it was a bad call that helped end my twins’ season last year (that wasn’t a fucking foul ball, especially when the outfielder muffed it AND it still landed fair…), umps are a part of the game. and it’s a game of tradition. change will come, but it’s not because of this.

    “In the end … it’s nice to find an issue that unites both Yankees and Red Sox fans.”

    another one is that they can both get fucked together. it’s like liking duke or the lakers or manchester united or brazil. unless you’re from there, it’s gross.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “a bad call that helped end my twins’ season last year”

    Yeah, I hate when that happens.

  • Tony

    He wasn’t specific about what he felt was extending the games. Players calling time when they enter the box, taking time between pitches, and taking a lot of pitches all factors into the extended length of these games. And West just doesn’t get that those are things that they best hitters do to maintain maximum concentration and focus.

    He should have kept his mouth shut and done his job. Its not his concern how long the game is. All he needs to worry about is officiating it properly.

    And the fact that baseball is a game of “tradition” and thats why they shouldn’t and a uniformed strike zone is proof that they do in fact need one. Tradition is not a good enough reason to impede progress and betterment.

  • zingzing

    suss: “Yeah, I hate when that happens.”

    happens to the best of us. as i said, nature of the game. not that the tigers have anyone but themselves to blame, really. that was a mighty collapse. same for the twins, i suppose, in the end.

    tom: “Its not his concern how long the game is.”

    isn’t it, though? that’s why they have rules, and that’s why players ask him for time.

    “Tradition is not a good enough reason to impede progress and betterment.”

    true, but i think if the opposite line of thinking were to prevail, it would not be for the betterment of the game. i’ll side with tradition and keeping the game the way it is, because the other side of that coin isn’t always pretty.

  • sanity

    way to contradict yourself…you complain about tight strike zones but want computers to call the games. That’ll tighten it up really nice…not to mention lengthen games even more.

  • Tony

    Contradict myself? First I didn’t complain about anything besides Joe West. I don’t care how long the games are. I simply stated that since the umpires have decided to shrink the strike zone games have been longer.

    Which is funny because the strike zone was never changed in the rule book. And there we reach the problem. The strike zone is not subjective. It should be a fixed and consistent zone.

    But that is another arguement all together. The point is that what Joe West is complaining about is part of what makes Boston and New York great.

  • zingzing

    but tony, where’d you get the idea that he was bemoaning bat discipline? i have yet to see where he said anything about it.

  • Tony

    I didn’t say he was bemoaning bat disipline. I said bat disipline on this level is caused by smaller strike zones and he’s one of the umpires who shrunk them. Yes, he was mad about players taking too long to get set (or whatever) but my point is that those things (which are necessities of concentration of these hitters with 90 mph projectiles being hurled at them) would be compensated for if the umpires called the strike zone the way they use to. West is bitching about something he can very easily fix himself.

    If the irony in that isn’t glaringly obvious then I don’t know what else to say. I guess I didn’t articulate myself well enough zingzing.

  • Tony

    He said simply “they take too long to play.” If he would have said something about specific and maybe not called the two biggest franchises in baseball “pathetic and embarrassing” he might have some semblence of a point. But even the time taken to prepare to hit is part of plate disipline. There’s nothing harder to do it sports than to hit a round ball with a round bat. There is a reason there isn’t a time clock in baseball.

  • zingzing

    yes, true, but there’s also a reason why there are rules to protect against delay of game.

    i’ll agree that taking time is a part of plate discipline, but there are points where it becomes excessive, and methinks that that’s what west was referring to.

  • Justin

    Can’t believe I’m going to say this, but look at what Jeter said:

    “At what time does it not become embarrassing?”

    Who determines how long is too long? Stopping players from stepping out and pitchers from having to deal after 12 seconds is going to shave off what, 10 minutes?

    Not to mention the fact that he bitches about games going over 4 hours, when a. none of them did this series and b. the shortest of the three was an extra inning game. More opportunity for batters to step out, and more opportunity for pitchers to wait.

    If you can’t see that Joe is a fucking idiot, I don’t know what will help.

  • Tony

    Well stated by Jeter and you Justin.

  • Charlie Doherty

    Comment #1: Great research Matt, and yes, like I said during the WWTT segment a few minutes ago, this Joe West controversy unites not just Sox and Yankees fans but Sox and Yankees players too, with Dustin Pedroia saying it was ridiculous that Derek Jeter wasn’t granted a timeout by Angel Hernandez last Wednesday, while both Terry Francona and Mariano Rivera objected to West’s BS as well.

    Won’t happen again anytime soon, I’ll guarantee you that.

  • Tony

    Like it or not there is a mutual respect. More so than in many rivalries. When Manny and Pedro were there and the Sox were more brash there was far more hatred but now the teams resemble each other so much in play and personality, neither team wants something like a timeout not being called to change a game. Especially when the division usually comes down to three or four games max.

  • zingzing

    i kinda like it when rivals hate each other. duke-unc is perfect. each thinks of the other as the scum of the earth. doesn’t hurt that they are, of course. the yankees and sox can also revel in another couple of things they have in common–being pure evil and being rich pricks.

  • http://www.mlmmarketingtricks.com Kim Tarr

    Wow, I haven’t heard of a computer being able replace an umpire…that is crazy. I guess for West, it just isn’t fun enough to watch the game from his view. Who wouldn’t want that job?

    Sounds like he needs to get out and find something else to do. It just isn’t fair to the players that are up to bat.

  • http://wp.blogcritics.org/writers/charlie-doherty Charlie Doherty

    Tony @ #15: Most players on the Sox and Yankees “respect” each other nowadays, you’re right, but I don’t think Youkilis and Jeter care much for each other.

    Also, the Sox and Yankees may resemble each other in some ways now but Tony, you are leaving out the other half of the equation regarding who was “brash” and “hated” in this rivalry not so long ago: Roger Clemens, A-Rod (and his July 2004 fight w/the highly respected Jason Varitek), and punks like Jeff Nelson/Karim Garcia (who classlessly beat up a special needs teacher at Fenway for no reason in the Fenway bullpen in the playoffs in 2003 and rightfully got sued for it).

    And of course, a-holes like Jorge Posada who is still there in NY and who will likely never be forgiven in Red Sox Nation or clubhouse for his role in the 2003 Sox-Yanks fight/brawl, where he classlessly insulted and lied about Pedro regarding the whole thing. Read the NY Post link from earlier in this paragraph, where Pedro sets the record straight about NOT intentionally hitting Garcia w/2 runners on and NOT pointing a finger to his head to say he’ll hit Posada in the head but to say he’ll remember Posada’s insults (bringing Pedro’a mother up, specifically, which a fellow Latino should never do, apparently).

    Some things players (and fans) just never forget.

  • zingzing

    looks like baseball agrees with west.

  • Tony

    Yeah Pedro sets the record straight. That’s funny.

    I’m sorry but Kevin Millar, Pedro (pointing at his head), Manny (on roids), Ortiz (on roids), and the rest of the crew all ran their mouths. They were the “idiots,” remember?

    A-Rod may act like a prick but he isn’t brash. He doesn’t come out and run his mouth, has never laughed about taking shots before a WS game, and has never grown long hair or a beard to be “cool” or “different.”

    Roger Clemens is an ass hole and everyone knows it and Karim Garcia and Nelson beating someone up has nothing to do with what occurred on the field. Nice try though Charlie. The idiots were just that; idiots.

  • Tony

    And I know it came later, but lets not forget our sour-faced little buddy Pappelbon and his declaration that he — and not Rivera — should close the All Star Game. Bunch of jack asses.

  • Tony

    Really the Red Sox have always been populated with ass holes. The fans loved DiMaggio and Mantle and yet hated Williams because he was an ass hole (see the MVP voting for 1941). Jim Rice was/is a prick, Nomar quit on his team, Manny quit on his team, Clemens started with the Red Sox and threatened to kill an umpire’s family in the middle of a playoff game, Wade Boggs tried to go into the Hall as a Devil Ray, the list goes on and on.

  • http://wp.blogcritics.org/writers/charlie-doherty Charlie Doherty

    The Yankees have always had a class-A (and D) list of assholes and cheats (George Steinbrenner, Billy Martin, Paul O’Neill, Kevin Brown, Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Nelson, Jorge Posada, Karim Garcia, etc.). I’m sure I’m missing a lot more.

    Who grew their hair long to be cool and different? Johnny Damon did, and he WAS COOL, different and Sox fans loved it – until he went to NY. Once he made that decision, THEN he became an a-hole. And yeah, Papelbon is an idiot off the field. We in Boston all know that. But Kevin Millar was/is a beloved figure in Boston. Nothing wrong with him.

    Sox fans hated Ted Williams and somehow had an affect on the 1941 MVP Vote? Tony, what are you smoking? DiMaggio won that award over Tedy because he was the better all-around player. Even Tedy said so. It had nothing to do with personality.

    And Tony, I love this back-and-forth but you’re a hypocrite for dismissing Nelson/Garcia as Off-the-field stuff but bringing up Papelbon, Rice, and Boggs (not on the field) and Ted being an a-hole (not on the field of play).

    Tedy played the game right and that’s why he’s one of the best of all time. He was also the biggest reason The Jimmy Fund became the institution it is today and a heroic pilot who fought two wars (WWII and Korean War). Don’t forget that.

    A-Roid (with his bushleague stunt in Toronto & hacking of Bronson Arroyo’s arm going down first base a while back) and some of the others on my above list did not always play the game right and you know it. And no, Ortiz did not do steroids. We don’t yet know what he’s on that list of 103 players for. Nice try. Manny? Roidhead indeed (and on that 2003 drug list, most likely for steroids based on what happened last year).

    Jim Rice had problems with the Boston media, not the fans. Even Jason Bay had a Rice poster on his wall as a kid. And Nomar was pissy towards the end of his Sox career (and injuries had a lot to do with it) but he never quit on the Red Sox and always played the game with 100% effort, so you’re wrong there too. Manny did quit on the Sox and didn’t always play hard. I’ll give you that.

    Lastly, Wade Boggs never tried to get in the Hall as a Devil Ray – those were false rumors. He’s in the Hall with a Sox cap on his plaque.

  • Tony

    I don’t feel like going back through all this I didn’t say Williams lost the MVP because Sox fans hated him. He lost it because everyone hated him. The guy is the last player to hit .400 in a season he didn’t win the MVP because of a hit streak and the fact that he would do things like not tip his hat to fans after a home run.

    In 1941 Ted Williams led the league in runs, hrs, walks, BA, OBP, and OPS. But his prickish attitude lost him the MVP. Give me one other example of a player posting a season like that, leading the league in that many categories, and not winning the award. Hell, he was only 5 RBIs behind Dimaggio for the Triple Crown.

    And you may not have believed the Boggs “rumors” but the Hall of Fame sure did, because after Boggs they reinforced their authority in the situation. So maybe he didn’t try to sell his cap, but riding around Yankee stadium on horseback was enough!

    You’re a Red Sox fan so you’ll defend the “idiots” until the end. But the fact is any good will generated by their poor imitation of the 70s A’s has long worn off.
    And lets not forget the way the organization totally dismantled that team of juiced up “idiots.” Most of them were gone two years later.

    The Yankees had a shitty run where they had guys like Garcia or Brown but that was like a 10 yr period at most. (Throwing Billy Martin in with that crew is a joke by the way). But its funny how you can’t go any further back in history or into the modern times.

    Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Henrich, Keller, Berra, Elston Howard, Bobby Richardson, Nettles, Gossage, Munson, Mattingly, Jeter, Granderson. You’ve got a small little sample size to choose from for your argument. I’ve got the entire existence of the organization. Hell, they even signed a drunken, almost dead Jimmy Foxx. But I guess thats why they have 2 WS championships and not 27 in the past 100 years.

  • Tony

    We are so far off topic. Joe West sucks! There.

  • Charlie Doherty

    West sucks indeed. That much we agree with. The rest? I don’t think so.

    BTW, about that “team of juiced up idiots” comment. That would be the Yankees from the early 2000s, not the Red Sox.

    And one more thing about Tedy Ballgame: There’s a reason they have a Ted Williams Tunnel in Boston; sure he was a jerk at times but the fans and city love what he did here.

    I hope you would agree that whether or not he was an a-hole should never factor into professional baseball writers voting for any award, let alone MVP. You would also then agree that Williams should’ve won that MVP over DiMaggio in 1941 and 1947 (when he won the Triple Crown), as Ted was more VALUABLE to his team than Joe was to his Yankees team.

    And if you think the Yankees have more lovable players than the Red Sox, that’s you’re right but it’s an opinion, not a fact. Here’s a quick list of much loved Red Sox players from the past: Fred Lynn, Jerry Remy, Dwight Evans, Dennis Eckersley, Carlton Fisk, Bobby Doerr, Johnny Pesky, Dom DiMaggio, Mike Andrews, Jimmy Foxx, Dick “The Monster” Radatz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Lou Merloni and his good buddy Nomar, Yaz, Dave Roberts, Bill “The Spaceman” Lee, Jim Longborg, Louis Tian…. I could go on and on.

  • Tony

    Ok the list. Fred Lynn (traded), Eck (traded), Fisk (left because they wouldn’t pay him), Foxx (was basically dead from booze at that point although he did pump out 50 one year, hes an A so don’t try to claim him), Bull Meuller (traded), Millar (traded), Nomar (traded), Tiant (went to the Yankees in ’79!).

    They dump off everyone when they are done with them. And yes, the Yankees in the 2000s were shit. I’ve wrote about it frequently. They had one bad 1/2 decade out of over 100 years of existence.

    But I give, this is a revolving door argument.

  • MLB Picks

    While this doesnt go down as shameful as our friend tim donaghy. Joe West certainly deserves the black eye for a distatefull comment like this.

  • Tony

    Yeah Donaghy is in a class all his own. West definately didn’t cheat; he just shot his mouth off. The only things we need to hear from West are “safe,” “out,” “ball,” or “strike.” He doesn’t even need to say fair or foul anymore. Just point.

  • Charlie Doherty

    Tony @ #27: It’s pretty clear by now that you don’t have much of a clue what you’re talking about when it comes to Red Sox history. First of all, it was Fred Lynn’s choice to be traded from Boston to California Angels, where he grew up. And Bill Mueller and Kevin Millar were not traded, they were free agents past their prime. Same with Eckersley. His trade had nothing to do with money. And even if it really did, he didn’t deserve it with an ERA over 4 and major alcohol problems that year (1984).

    And don’t tell me I can’t “claim” Jimmy Foxx. He did more for the Red Sox (and other teams) than he ever did for the Yankees in his one and only (and final) year.

    About the only thing you’re truly right about here is that this is a revolving door argument, so enough is enough is right.

  • Charlie Doherty

    One more thing: in my race to answer all your wrong points I made one of my own in taking comment of yours #24 to mean the Yankees signed a “drunken, almost dead” Jimmie Foxx” when you probably meant the Red Sox. The Sox signed him alright, and it was a great move. But calling him a drunk and almost dead is BS.

    I could say Mickey Mantle was a drunk too who engaged in self-destructive behavior. So what if they were or weren’t? As long as it doesn’t affect their play on the field, who cares. The likes of Mantle and Foxx did their job better than most, sober or not. That’s all that matters.

  • Tony

    You are aware that Foxx never broke the 20 home run mark after his 32nd birthday right? He’s like the posterboy for a wasted career. Mantle stepped in a drainage ditch and tore his knee to shreds. And still played 17 years.

    I know Fred Lynn wanted to leave for Cali. I was actually a fan of his during his short time in Detroit. And yeah Eck was past his prime, before he became the second greatest closer of all time and all.

    Millar and Miller past their primes two seasons after a WS Championship? Use them up, then kick them to the curb. Aside from his freak season in ’04 Meuller never hit .300 his entire career so there was no real prime there, but his next three seasons with the Dodgers are right in line with his career stats with last season the poorest. (funny how the only season he wins a batting title or ever hits .300 hes on a team with at least two exposed steroid users..hmmm….).

    Millar actually had a better season with Baltimore in 2006 than he did in 2005 and hit his career high in hrs in 2008 so I’m wondering about your defininition of “past their prime.”

  • zingzing

    so this has turned into a yankees v sox thing, eh?

    (anyone see the sox get torn apart by the twins today?)

  • Tony

    Yes unfortunately it has. And yeah, Wakefield got lit up today. I know Mike Soccia is the usual best manager in baseball pick but I’m always impressed with what Gardenhier does.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    after this display, what’s pathetic and embarrassing is baseball fans all worked up in April. See you in the summer when the real sports are done with their playoffs

  • zingzing

    i like gardenhier. he always gets good stuff out of whatever he has. this year, he probably has the best lineup he’s ever had. too bad nathan went down. but roach has been perfect so far.

    big story today was liariano. haven’t seen him this composed and dominant in a few years. that’s bad news for the american league. as long as the twin’s pitching is solid, our lineup is good enough to come through usually. tigers are looking good as well, but the twins’ competition (angels, white sox, red sox) has been as good as anyone’s and we’re 7-3.

    but we’ll see what happens against kc, who always seem to get the best of us, basement-dwelling perverts that they are.

  • zingzing

    el bicho, trying to stir up some shit… nba is boring (ncaa is awesome). nhl is cool, but i have no truck in it. never had a team around as a kid (grew up in carolina and the north stars moved to dallas) and so never grew into a major fan. even if i love the sport, i can’t bring myself to care. (although i was glued to the olympics. fuck canada.)

  • Charlie Doherty

    Jimmie Foxx was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1951, Tony. Some “wasted” career.

    And Kevin Millar getting 117 hits in 2005, hitting just 15 homers and driving in 64 runners is an example of him not being past his prime? You’ve got to be kidding me, Tony.

    He couldn’t play full-time in Boston anymore in 2005. That’s why his numbers were down. He was past his prime, which was 2001, 2003, and 2004 (2002 he only played in 126 games and still batted .300). He averaged batting .300 from 2001-2004 between FL and BOS and had at least 130-150 hits per year. 2005-2009 was weaker by comparison. (His only mildly impressive power numbers year in the later years was 2008, but he batted .234 and had a .323 OBP)

    Bill Mueller peaked (reached his prime) in Boston and Theo was right to let him go too after 2005. Mike Lowell at 3B starting in 2006 was a much better option that Mueller, wasn’t it? And Youkilis playing full-time (or mostly full-time) gold glove-caliber first base instead of Millar worked out well too, Tony.

    You know, the Yankees don’t always “use up” all their key players and then kick ‘em to the curb – not with Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu, and others. So why should the Sox do that for players like Millar and Mueller who were good but not exactly on the level of those guys?

    And what three seasons of Bill Mueller in Dodger town are you talking about? He played 32 games with them in 2006, then retired cuz he couldn’t stay healthy.

    Tony, it’s amusing that you think the Sox let Millar and Mueller go – or as you wrongly said, traded them out of town – before it was right to do so and imply they should’ve been kept around. Why do you care?

  • Tony

    I just find the Red Sox commical. That’s why I care. 86 years of futility, their best players on their championship teams all were steroid users (Manny and Papi), and now they’re right back to playing second fiddle to the best team like they have since 1920.

    And honestly, just go look to Foxx’s stats. The guy was done by 32. Its fact. He’s in the Hall of Fame because he was the youngest player to hit 500 home runs, the majority of which came long before he put a Red Sox uniform on.

    But as I tried to do before, I’m out. The records speak for themselves. 2 championships to 27. One team is apparently doing something right for the past 100 years.

  • Charlie Doherty

    No Tony, wrong again. Foxx was done at age 34 in 1942, 17 years after he debuted at 17 1/2 years of age in 1925.

    Most players are on the decline or retired 15 years into their career, never mind 17 years, and at age 33 in 1941, Fox was still driving in 100 runs per year.

    Fox hit 302 HRs for the Philly A’s. That is a majority. But he hit a significant 222 for the Red Sox as well, including his 500th HR in a Sox uniform. Without both amounts, he might not have made the Hall of Fame.

    For the last time, only 1 roidhead played on Boston’s championship teams (Manny), but a bunch of roidheads I listed earlier played for the Yankees in the late ’90s/early 2000s. And with that, I’m out.

  • Tony

    No Charlie, you’re wrong once again. At age 32 Foxx posted 36 hrs and hit .297 (arguably already in decline). From age 33 until he retired at age 37 he hit .266 with 34 home runs and struck out 217 times to only 276 hits. I’d say that constitutes “done.”

    I have no idea what you meant by age 34. At age 33 Foxx hit .300 but with only 19 home runs and lead the league in ks. This was his last season with the Red Sox and his last viable season period. At age 34 he hit .226 with 8 home runs. Quite a big drop off. And even at 33, he hit 27 less home runs than the previous season.

    He had some great years with the Sox without a doubt but your stats are just off. Take a look at baseballreference.com before you post some of this stuff to avoid further mistakes.

  • charlie doherty

    Tony, I’m accurate with my stats (I used B-R.com as well). You can’t point to one of mine that was wrong. You’re not even being consistent with your own points. Let me explain.

    You said Foxx was done by age 32. You were wrong as he drove in over 100 runs at age 33 as I stated earlier (and which you pretend never happened), and like you said in your most recent post, batted .300. (and had a .412 OBP). That hardly means he was done by age 32, Tony. You have to realize you were wrong in saying so by now. You further disagreed with yourself by saying Foxx had a “viable” year at age 33. You’re the one making mistakes, not me.

    So which is it: was Foxx’s last good year at age 32 or age 33)?

    As I said earlier, Foxx didn’t start his major decline all-around (aka being “done”) until 1942 at age 34, his 17th year in the big leagues.

    But moreover, you can’t just look at Foxx’s major dip in numbers/production at a certain age like you’ve been doing with Jimmie Foxx. You have to look at how long he actually played the game, the mileage on his body. Foxx started his pro career earlier than normal (age 17 1/2), so his decline started a little earlier than normal (age 34). But with the amount of time he was in MLB before age 34, it’s amazing his decline in overall numbers didn’t start before then.

    But heck, even with all this back and forth on Foxx, I’m glad you finally flip-flopped on Foxx and admitted he had some great years with the Sox, because this whole time, you have been trying to marginalize his numbers and time in Boston.

  • Cracker

    Joe West and Angel Hernandez are the worst umps in the MLB..BY FAR. Sad that they are on the same crew. With these 2 scumbags you should call up your AAA team to play.