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Jewish Guilt

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First off, let me say that given the historical hatred for Jews in the world, I am loath to write an article critical of members of my own faith. But this needs to be said, and I’m going to say it. To all Jews reading this, take the time and fully digest the ideas being discussed here.

Yes, I’m Jewish, but unlike most of my brethren, I voted McCain. Living in New York, I’ve been amazed by just how many fellow Jews supported Obama in the 2008 election. Many of them Liberals, proud, loud, outspoken Liberals who won’t even debate with people like me, because of my supposed conservative affliction. That my Jewish brothers and sisters overwhelmingly supported Obama just didn’t make any sense to me in the run-up to last year’s election. As events have unfolded in the last five-plus months of Obama’s rule, it’s nothing short of astounding that a majority of Jews supported him. What were you guys thinking?

Here was a candidate running on a platform of engagement with the Iranian government, a sworn enemy of Israel, whose very leader denies the Holocaust and who has used “wipe Israel off the map” in a sentence. Even if President Obama were really as charismatic as the media and his sycophantic followers insist, this alone would not be enough to change the direction of a bad guy like Ahmadinejad, forget about shadow government of Khomeini which is really in control.

Many noted Obama’s reference, during his address in Cairo, to American meddling in Iran back in the late 50’s. Of course, Obama failed to mention a few things about that episode. For example, American meddling in Iran was in response to meddling from the Soviets. Would the Liberal Jew prefer Obama’s alternative, that the U.S. stay out of it and allow the Soviets, who had a long history of Jewish persecution and who, during the period in question, actually backed the Israeli state’s Arab enemies to expand their reach into resource rich Iran? I wonder how Jews who backed Obama felt when they heard Obama retell this edited, yet “tumultuous” history. I thought about the Iranian Jews I knew who fled persecution during the 1979 Iranian revolution, during which the U.S.-backed regime that Obama derided was violently overthrown. These Iranian Jews came to the U.S., often with just the clothes on their backs. If you were a Jew in New York in the 80’s, chances were you knew an Iranian Jew with this exact story. The regime that these Jews were fleeing from in Iran in the early 80s is the very one that Obama would directly negotiate with now, without any conditions. This was an Obama campaign pledge, not some dismissible, sotomayoresque comment in a few youtube videos, but a major stance of Obama’s, laid out for the entire Jewish community to see.

And for the first time that I can remember, it felt like something was actually happening in Iran. It was special, compelling, and horrifying. True, the people were all riled up about one candidate versus the other, when both were handpicked by Khamenei (to whom Obama has referred as “the Supreme Leader”). I wouldn’t be surprised if Ahmadinejad did legitimately win the election, but this is not about who won. The whole situation speaks to something much deeper. Obviously the people of Iran are getting a taste of what it’s like elsewhere in the world, thanks to technology and neighbors who are starting to get more freedom, and they naturally want some of their own. God bless them for that, and as Jews with a history of persecution and oppression ourselves, we should be the first to stand up with them and offer our support for their cause.

Yet, we watched in horror the images of Iranian women on the streets of Iran with blood pouring out of their necks — injuries inflicted by a state which is trying to build nuclear weapons, supports terrorism, and has been complicit in the killing of Americans and Jews. At the same time, we saw that the American president who was supported by as much as 80% of American Jews could barely muster convincing support for the patriots of Iran, who only want what we have. Oh I know, Obama was not trying to meddle or paint the protesters as U.S. puppets. And that line worked until a week later when Obama did meddle, albeit tepidly.

As the protests in Iran have been tamped down once again under the boot of Iranian tyranny, it’s clear Obama’s wasn’t wise policy — it was akin to voting “present.” And the too little, too late words of consternation were mere duck and cover. This whole episode of the administration’s handling of foreign policy makes a Gong show act look polished; it is the clearest evidence yet of Obama’s on-the-job training. Watching the president sheepishly following Angela Merkel’s lead on Friday, as if she were saying to Obama, “Let me show you how this works,” was a humbling moment for Americans, and distressing to people across the world who are fighting for freedom.

To make matters worse, there are reports that Obama has been sending secret letters to Khamenei and Ahmadinejad, to ensure post-election discussions. I wonder whether political pressure will eventually force Obama to rethink his position on open and direct talks with Iran, because there is no chance he will change his diplomatic trajectory based on something as silly as morals (and no indication of such from his staff on the Sunday talk shows). You can’t blame Obama though, this is the very platform he ran on: George Bush was the problem, not the Mullahs in Iran. And a majority of Jews bought it — hook, line, and sinker.

Yet Jewish support for Obama is far from a fluke. Most Jews also self-identify as Democrats — Liberals, even. But it’s not as if the Democratic party, or worse, the liberal wing of the party, to whose views Obama subscribes, has been a particularly good friend of Israel over the years. Liberals are generally antiwar, pro appeasement, and in my experience, anti-Israel. Just look at the way Obama has been in favor of meddling, not in Iran but in Israel. I’m not saying that support for Israel should be the only, or even an important, measure of on what a Jew should base his or her vote. And I’ll be the first to admit that Israel is far from perfect. But Israel is Jewish land, and if the Israeli Jews, people who hold the same moral values as Jews from New York, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, really did want to perform Genocide on the Palestinians, as so many Liberals like to claim, then they would have done it already. Does any American Jew, Liberal or otherwise, really believe that the Israeli/Palestinian “peace process” is stalled because of Jewish settlements? It’s safe to say that the endless barrage of unaimed rocket attacks, suicide murderers with ball bearing laced C4, and an Arab culture of anti-Semitic Jewish hatred is probably much more of a cause for the stalled peace process than any extensions some folks are putting on their houses in contested border land (which incidentally, has always been constructed in order to give Israel more space from attacks by their enemies).

So if Obama’s Middle East policy isn’t what drove Jewish voters to favor him, then what was it?

Was it the promise of a government-run health care option? I know lots of Jews of Russian descent, many of them in the New York area, and many of those a mere generation or two from Soviet Russia. Sure, we’re not talking out and out communism here in America right? Just the health industry. And the banks, and insurance, and also American auto makers. I think taking assets from people who paid for and owned stock in G.M. and giving them to the UAW is nothing at all like Communism or Socialism. At least the Media is still free right? No, this is nothing like the nationalization of Nazi Germany, or Chavez’ Venezuela, or countless other instances where freedom was snuffed out faster than you can punch a chad. We are Jewish and we want a Public Option NOW!

If you really think about it, there are few, if any, aspects of American Liberalism which are really compatible with being Jewish. One example is Obama’s and the Liberals’ obsession with identity politics, which is really legitimized racism and should give any Jew pause. Another example is Obama’s and the Liberals’ focus on equality, but not equality of rights, just the idea that we are all exactly equal in sum. All the same, no more, no less, not one deserving of more than any other regardless of our actions — a distinctly non-Jewish sentiment, considering our historic celebration of achievement, as well as experience in the aforementioned Soviet Union. From gun control (Jews are generally law abiding, yet also often subject to prejudice, even in present-day New York, and would benefit from the constitutional right to defend themselves), to increased entitlement programs (dependency isn’t something a Jew would aspire to), from “spreading the wealth” (property rights are codified in the Talmud), to even supporting abortion rights, the Jew who is a Liberal or a Democrat is a walking contradiction.

I know a few walking contradictions. And I’ve been wondering lately what they think of the way things have been going. I’m afraid to ask them honestly, because I’m worried that I’ll be disappointed in them and their continued blinkered and rationalizing view. Or worse, if they do regret their vote, then I’ll be rubbing it in that they made a terrible mistake voting for Obama, a mistake that in retrospect should have been obvious to them. After all, we’re Jews, and we’ve all learned these lessons before.

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About The Obnoxious American

  • Glenn Contrarian

    OA accuses us of ‘legalized racism’.

    Just another wonderful instance of a conservative accusing liberals of what the conservatives already do to a much greater degree.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    OA –

    Right is right and wrong is wrong – and YES, the Jews have been terribly persecuted throughout history, from the days of the Roman occupation to the blood libels (which even continue today) to the assigned ghettos which began in the Inquisition and spread throughout Europe to the Holocaust…

    …no one with a clear understanding of history would either deny any of that or assume that such anti-Semitism exists today!

    THAT SAID – and you as a conservative should understand this instinctively – the historic persecution of Jews does NOT justify persecution of others BY Jews. The forced occupation – stealing – of what the world knew were Jewish lands throughout does NOT justify the Jews doing the same to what the world considers Palestinian land. There’s a REASON Israel is called the ‘twice-promised land’…for it was first promised by the British Crown to the Palestinians, and then given to the Jews to satisfy a promise to Chaim Weizmann.

    I do not castigate the Brits nor the Jews of those days nor Chaim Weizmann – there is no blame for any of them. BUT nothing then justifies what Israel continues to do even now.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Glen,

    This article isn’t a debate about the righteousness of Israel as a Jewish land. The purpose of this article is for Jews, about Jews. For American Jews to rethink their near unanimous support for the Liberal wing of the Democratic platform.

    FWIW, I happen to believe in a two state solution. But that second state needs to put down it’s arms and thus far it has not. No honest observer can really say that the Palestinians are an actual partner for peace.

    I have thought about the question you raise before, namely your characterization of Jewish actions, forced occupation and stealing. These are Jewish lands, should Jews not want to live in Israel because they were displaced a few centuries ago, as opposed to a few decades ago like the Palestinians? Fast forward a few more hundred years and the history reads that Muslims captured Jewish lands, then Jews captured it back, or rather the international community gave it to them. Doesn’t seem nearly as provacative, and this is ignoring the fact that Palestinians were supposed to be relocated to Jordan (and many were), or that they for all intents and purposes could stop fighting and actually have a state this very minute if they were so inclined.

  • The Obnoxious American

    but all that said, I’d ask that you resist the urge, the incredibly strong urge, to make this a discussion about Israel. Because we both know that argument will rage as long as the Israeli-Palestinian issue itself!

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    My attitude is that everybody should just get the hell out of the business of the Middle East countries. It’s about time they all started talking TO each other instead of AT each other. The three “great” religions all share a heritage stemming from Abraham. Surely, amidst all the hyperbole, there must be some common ground.

    And, to seal the deal, Jerusalem must be made an independent district from all factions and placed under the direct rule of the United Nations with the UN moving from NYC to Jerusalem. They – the United Nations – created this mess. Let them fix it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    There is no such a thing as Palestinian land and no such an animal as a Palestinian. It’s all bullshit and all the Arabs know it. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Let’s drive this home with a sledge-hammer.

    “I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. There’s an Arab nation. I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. That’s a colonial invention. Since when were there Palestinians? I think there’s only an Arab nation. Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the southern part of Greater Syria.”

    Note well, these words were spoken not by some Jewish nationalist, nor even a Jew at all, but by former MK Dr. Azmi Bishara in an interview with Yaron London several years ago. Bishara is a leader of Israeli Arab citizens who openly identify with the enemy, and who was forced to flee Israel under suspicion of aiding HizbAllah in wartime.

    So, there is NO PALESTINE, AND NO PALESTINIANS! If these Arabs can con Israelis into believing lies, and into committing treason because of them, as every prime minister since YitzHak Rabin has done, the Israelis who believe these lies and have committed treason ought to be hung for treason. That means every man who has been prime minister since Peres, except for Sharon, who is functionally dead.

    That is our problem.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    All of Israel and what is now Jordan, as well as the Heights of Golan is JEWISH under the Resolutions on Palestine of 24-25 April 1920, signed in San Remo Italy. This is international law and all the rest of the “resolutions” concerning this land are just so much bullshit and have all the legitimacy of an Arab telling you a price in the market – none, in other words. The Arabs are the interlopers here, and should be damned grateful we do not kick them all the fuck out.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    OA, re comment #6, somebody has got to get up and say the things you are unwilling to. Obama is anti-Israel, his chief aide-de-camp, the child of Jewish patriots is anti-Israel, there are a shitload of high ranking Democrats, from Indik to Ross, who are all anti-Israel.

    In the end, OA, being Jewish is all about Israel, because our faith and our origins all stem from this land, and the commandments we are commanded by G-d to obey are to be obeyed HERE, not in California or New York. This means that all the anti-Israel Jewish shitheads are traitors as well, but traitors beyond the reach of the Israeli Criminal Code. So, a believing Jew like me has to rely on the Living G-d of Israel to kill them, and I have full faith that He will arrange it so that they do not go to their graves in peace.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Hahahaaaa Do your thing Ruvy, we’re essentially saying the same thing here. Of course, I’m not suggesting that American Jews, or even anti-Israeli Jews, should be killed, just perhaps they should register to vote as Republicans, or at the very least stop voting for guys like Obama :>

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I think we’ve discussed this before, Ruvy, but don’t you think Arabs have been lying to their Palestinian cousins as well? Let’s face it, were it not for ‘Palestine’ would not the Arab world find another one of its own tribes to use as the model of oppression?

    To me, the Palestinians for the most part are unwitting pawns in the game. Again, Israel and its Arab neighbors need to tell the rest of us to get out of the ballgame and allow those who live in the Middle East to determine their fate. Colonialism is over, let the work somehow begin.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    First, Silas, you have to comprehend that Azmi Bishara and Mahmoud Abbas belong to the same people – the Arabs wqho live in the Land of Israel. There are no “Palestinians” no matter how many times Arabs scream ya filastin! and shoot rifles in the air or give sieg und heil salutes. As for the Arabs in Syria, Lebanon or Iraq, they can take in their brothers – but they won’t. The best saolution is to let Arabs call Jordan “Palestine”, have Amman as their capital and get the message across clearly that they will not be driven from their homes where they live under Israeli sovereignty west of the Jordan, that they will have home rule for the most part, but if they aere unwilling to live in peace, they will be driven out – permanently.

    All the foreigners – the Americans the Brits the Russkies, the Germans, the French, and most especially the damned Vatican, have to either get the hell out of OUR land – or be driven out. They have NO business here at all.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    OA,

    As for the American Jews who supported Obama, they are too stupid to have buyers remorse. They’ll first figure it out when Obam declares that Jews are on the wrong side of history, and mobs loyal to him start to let them understand just what that means. Hopefully, by that time, you will have figured out to get your family out of the States, as little as you like the idea.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Lolll Ruvy,

    Usually your predictions are a bit extreme. However, with Obama’s brown shirts (Americorps) and the blindly following media, the scenario you suggest is probably not that extreme of a prediction. Extreme or not, let’s just hope that cooler heads prevail and support for Israel continues to our satisfaction.

  • doug

    It’s laughable to read somecall bullshit when he subscribes to the bullshit that he can’t use the letter o in god. The middle east will never be solved as long as superstitious people whose thinking never got out of the dark ages are involved

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Doug,

    If you want to laugh at the way I show respect for G-d, fine. Just don’t come to the village I live in to do so. My neighbors might not appreciate your scorn and you may find it so unpleasant that I’ll have to stop them from showing their “hospitality”.

    You seem unable, however to counter anything I’ve said on a real level. Dismissive contempt is not much of an argument. If that is all you can manage, don’t waste the effort to type anything.

  • Arch Conservative

    C’mon Glenn….liberals have institutionalized racism and dependency in this nation. It’s their bread and butter. Make a bunch of empty promises while blaming the evil racist GOP for everything that’s wrong, fail to deliver on those promises and then blame the GOP all over again.

    Obama truly is king of the pussies. Never before have so many infantilized, whining, loser, crybabies looking for an endless stream of handouts had so much reason to believe that all their hopes and dreams would come true.

    Oh and I agree with you Ruvy…America should get the f— out of the middle east. Then we should purge our own nation of the corruptive influences (ie all the fucking moonbats and their henchmen). After that our foreign policy is we nuke anyone that even looks at us crosseyed whether it’s that crazy haired midget on the Korean peninsula or some dipshit screaming about allah. Hey mohammed we dropped a nuke on your head because we could…..now fuck off!

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doug,

    People do that out of respect, not superstition. It’s taking the lord’s name in vain – actually one of the ten commandments. Faith and respect for God is a bit more important than to be classified as mere superstition in my view.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    …America should get the f— out of the middle east. Then we should purge our own nation of the corruptive influences (ie all the fucking moonbats and their henchmen

    AMEN! Especially moonbats like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity. And their henchmen the Promise Keepers, Mormon Church and that stupid famiuly values group that is run by women so ugly that they don’t even know what sex is.

    After that, all I want is world peace.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Silas,

    I’ll agree to getting rid of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity, if you can agree to getting rid of Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Paul Krugman, Thomas Friedman, E.J. Dionne, Eugene Robinson, Al Franken, Arianna Huffington, Kos and countless others.

    I find it so hillarious that the Left loves to demonize Rush, and Sean and Ann, meanwhile for each of these guys, there are literally 10 or more left wing moonbats who are equally or often more rabid (though with the opposite political orientation). To hear libs tell it, these are supposed real journalists. Some even have a Nobel Peace Prize, not that that has meant much in recent years.

  • Baronius

    Way back before January 20th, I made a comment in “support” of Obama’s foreign policy. I said that his weakness would be far more likely than McCain’s strength to get us in a direct war or a proxy war with Iran, which I thought would prove to be a good thing over time. As with most of my predictions about Obama, I hope I’m wrong. It’d be great to see a new regime in Tehran, or something less bloody than a war. But this whole “strength through whimpering fear” thing has the potential for catastrophe.

  • zingzing

    ha!

    archie: “we should purge our own nation of the corruptive influences (ie all the fucking moonbats and their henchmen).”

    hi, fascist.

    “After that our foreign policy is we nuke anyone that even looks at us crosseyed whether it’s that crazy haired midget on the Korean peninsula or some dipshit screaming about allah. Hey mohammed we dropped a nuke on your head because we could…..now fuck off!”

    you do realize you sound like a bloodthirsty little neonazi, don’t you?

    i’ve never seen your idiocy spelled out so obviously. i’m sure you make a lot of people real, real happy.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Wow, listen to all the hate.

    All posted by people who know history…but who don’t UNDERSTAND history.

    Violence begets violence begets violence. Violence is sometimes necessary, but there are those whose only solution is the use of more violence.

    I read the hatred on this page, and I wonder how many of the right-wingers here sanctimoniously call themselves “pro-life”.

    Good thing that none of you is in charge of our foreign policy – otherwise you would cause the deaths of countless innocent people.

    I think I’ll ignore this thread, because spending time here would be about as useful as arguing with a drunk.

  • zingzing

    i’m again coming to the inevitable conclusion that archie is a liberal who has created a wonderful, satiric character, designed to show how much buffoonery is possible as a right wing nut job. you have to admire his perseverance in sticking with the character, as well as the humor.

    if this is true, archie, you are a genius. i’m going to stick with my theory and see if i can find any cracks in it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    All posted by people who know history…but who don’t UNDERSTAND history.

    Hi, Glenn,

    I’m the left-winger here, not the right-winger – savefor belidving in fiscal responsibility.

    And you have been unable to answer me a word. I’ve shown those you argue for to be liars and you want to walk away?

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] That’s why I’m a socialist. I can’t stand liberal cowards on the one hand – or fascists on the other. And more often then not, scratch a “liberal” and what you find underneath is a nasty “do as I tell you, not as I do” fascist.

    And, to drive the point home, I’m not interested in running your foreign policy. Your nation blew its wad, morally and a whole other host of ways. I’m interested in steering my nation back to a path of righteousness – without reference to your domineering, overwheening and deceitful culture.

    Have a good morning….

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I am pro-life and I’m not ashamed of it. I believe that every woman has the right to choose her own destiny, THAT, my friends, is PRO-LIFE.. While the abortion issue is complicated, it does not take away the basic right of a woman to have reproductive freedom so long as that freedom is exercised under certain guidelines so as not to create a society where abortion is the chosen method for birth control. Conservatives and religious fanatics far more dangerous than the Taliban would have you believe that THEY are pro-life. They are not. A person who prohibits a woman from abortion is not pro-life, they are a thinly veiled version of Hitler’s Nazi movement.

    Obnoxious insofar as your purge of liberal pundits, you can have them all with the exception of Franken (the rightful Senator from Minnesota) and Maddow. Olbermann is over the top and Dionne, is, well, Dionne. There’s enough hot air being spewed by fringes on both sides. It’s time for middle of the road pundits to step forward and wriggle the power away from the fringes who are more of a threat to our national security than a boat load of Cubans on Florida’s shores.

    And while I mention Mr. Franken, let me note that this fight against Franken is not only Norm Coleman’s. There are plenty of Democrats in Congress and in the White House who fear Franken’s rise to the Senate. In many ways, he’s Paul Wellstone reincarnated. In others, a Franken term would give the Democrats the magic number of 60 which will translate into Democratic defeats in next year’s elections. Don’t kid yourselves, folks. The Democrats loath Coleman but in the back rooms where smoking and blow jobs occur, there is trepidation in the ranks if Al Franken takes office.

    Ruvy, I could not agree with you more about the United States getting the hell out of your backyard. Enough is enough. It’s time we ship the United Nations to Jerusalem, cut off all foreign aid to ALL countries in the Middle East and start tending to our own affairs. But, in order for that to be accomplished, Israelis need to make it clear to Jewish Americans. You want us out. Your brothers and sisters in faith are equally part of the problem. Their influence in American politics is such that our politicians are too timid to pull back for fear of economic and political reprisals. I think Israelis are fully capable of administering their own affairs in that region and if the U.S. got the heck out, I think the Israelis would find that their standing with the Arab community will rise. You all share the same genetics. You all share the same land. You all share the same Patriarch. I think you all can figure out a way to make it work without our so-called guidance.

    And for you apoplectic visionaries of the impending Apocalypse, remember one thing. Jesus looked more like an Arab than a white man. Deal with it.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Glenn, if I exhibited any hate, it was not intentional. If I offended you in any way, please indicate what it was that I may have written which would cause you disdain. And, finally, don’t run away from the thread. Arguing with drunks is a great way to relieve tension!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Okay, Ruvy –

    I’m a ‘liberal coward’? Let me tell you one definition of courage – it’s the determination to do what one must despite the cost to oneself.

    Several times on BC I’ve owned up and publicly admitted when I was wrong. Why did I do so? Because my desire to speak and protect the truth is greater than my desire to ‘win the argument’. I don’t like to lose, but I refuse to win on false pretenses. Frankly, I’ve seen few times that anyone else on BC has shown that same determination.

    Does that make me courageous? That’s not for me to decide – but I DO take issue with those who would call me a coward when those same people are often afraid to hold themselves to the same standard.

    NOW, let’s look at your ‘sledgehammer’ quote:

    “I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. There’s an Arab nation. I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. That’s a colonial invention. Since when were there Palestinians? I think there’s only an Arab nation. Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the southern part of Greater Syria.”

    WOW! ONE guy said something you agree with. ONE man…but does that make it a true statement? Not at all.

    The Romans ruled Palestine. Then it eventually fell under Arab rule – and stayed that way until the First Crusade when the Catholics ‘completed’ their victory by slaughtering all Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem. Not so long after that, Saladin retook Jerusalem, and Palestine stayed under Islamic rule until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

    In other words, Palestine had NOT belonged to the Jews for over two millenia, since well before Christ.

    Yet what did the Zionists claim? Here’s a paste from the Wiki: “At the Peace Conference in 1919, Emir Faisal, speaking on behalf of King Hussein, asked for Arab independence, or at minimum the right to pick the mandatory. In the end, he recommended an Arab state under a British mandate. The World Zionist Organization also asked for a British mandate, and asserted the ‘historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine'”

    Now let me get this straight – Palestine had NOT ‘belonged’ to the Jews for over TWO MILLENIA, yet they laid claim to a ‘historic title’!

    Sorry, Ruvy, but when it comes to the grand scope of history, the Jewish claim to Palestine is laughable. That would be akin to America giving up ALL land to native Americans and Hawaiians! That would be akin to ALL of South America coming under the rule of the indigenous tribes that roamed before the conquistadors ever set sail!

    Is this blowing things all out of proportion? Not at all, because the same reference shows that EVEN IN 1945 the vast majority of the people in Palestine were Muslim, and the vast majority of the land owned in Palestine were Muslim!

    Again, Ruvy, I’m sorry – but in the view of history, the Jewish claim to Palestine is specious at best, and criminal at worst.

    Does this mean I want the Jews out of Israel? Not at all. You’re already there, so it would behoove you to learn to live peaceably with your neighbors, because America won’t always be able to militarily back you up when worst comes to worst – and it doesn’t matter how much you claim otherwise, it is a FACT that the reason there is not greater aggression against Israel is because of the velvet glove of the West’s diplomacy…which the Arabs know covers a mailed fist.

    Make nice with your neighbors, Ruvy – because you can’t kill them all…but without the West’s protection, they CAN kill you all. Even now, all they would need to do to effectively empty Israel would be to set off a dozen or so ‘dirty bombs’ in Jerusalem, Haifa, and Tel Aviv…and much of those cities would need to be evacuated. What would you do, where would you go then?

    Again, make nice with your neighbors…while you still can.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    I have little trouble with what you say – except for one thing. Ship the UN to Geneva – or maybe the Island of Wight. We DO NOT need the bastards here. In Geneva the assholes can have their whores and Geneva weekends all they want, run traffic lights, kill pedestrians and claim diplomtic immunity, while the Swiss just have to suck it in. The same goes for the Isle of Wight – except that they’d have to do an awful lot of building to accomodate the UN fatheads – and their whores.

    BTW, we Jews look more like Arabs than white men – and have for centuries – and we’ve been dealing with it just fine….

  • zingzing

    ruvy’s righteousness, of course, comes with a gun attached to its face.

    ruvy’s version of “showing”that people are “liars” is to say they will be at the center of some conspiracy that’s only in his mind, and which he doesn’t bother to explain.

    if someone says, “there needs to be an even-handed approach to israeli-palestinian problems in the middle east,” ruvy hears, “fuck all you jews.”

    for someone who was once homeless in america, ruvy had better do some explaining about “overwheening.” of course, if he would honestly think about what would happen to israel without our “overwheening,” he might have to face the reality of his situation, rather than just spouting nonsense on the internet. he also will have to inspect his definition of the word “coward.”

    if “more often then not, scratch a “liberal” and what you find underneath is a nasty “do as I tell you, not as I do” fascist,” why aren’t we overrun with fascists? OHHHHH… ruvy’s got his own definition of a fascist: “those who disagree with me.” to use that definition, well, ruvy’s a fascist. to use his definition, you see… that’s why ruvy sees a fascist on every corner, a gestapo in every nation.

    it’s especially galling when he uses this kind of shit: “All the foreigners – the Americans the Brits the Russkies, the Germans, the French, and most especially the damned Vatican, have to either get the hell out of OUR land – or be driven out. They have NO business here at all.”

    but wait, isn’t ruvy himself a foreigner? oh…. he’s just talking about non-jews. i get it. it’s a racial thing, nothing more. *fascist* what?

    other than that, all ruvy’s said is that there are no palestinians… fine–how about “people who live in the land of palestine, which doesn’t really exist either anymore, because it was owned by the brits who changed the name and gave it to other people.” i think you know, and we know, what is being said with “palestinians.” whether or not it was a political (geographically) term in the past or not, it is now, so that’s the way it is.

    then there’s obama’s mobs… whatever… paranoid nonsense. hrm. taking the “o” out of “god”… your neighbors sound like nasty pricks… hrm. what are these “answers” that ruvy is looking for? where are the points (other than hysterical, racist jibber-jabber) that he’s made?

    i, and glenn, i assume, can’t really find much in ruvy’s shit to talk about… oh, WAIT… maybe glenn wasn’t talking about ruvy! maybe ruvy isn’t the center of the world! maybe he was referring to all the minutia of life (at least on this thread) that occurs outside of ruvy! would that occur to ruvy? ruvy might not think about that. he’s too busy calling people (who aren’t ruvy, of course) “cowards” to even notice that NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT YOU, RUVY!

    g-d! (and that doesn’t mean god.)

  • The Obnoxious American

    “It’s time we ship the United Nations to Jerusalem, cut off all foreign aid to ALL countries in the Middle East and start tending to our own affairs. But, in order for that to be accomplished, Israelis need to make it clear to Jewish Americans. You want us out. Your brothers and sisters in faith are equally part of the problem. Their influence in American politics is such that our politicians are too timid to pull back for fear of economic and political reprisals. I think Israelis are fully capable of administering their own affairs in that region and if the U.S. got the heck out, I think the Israelis would find that their standing with the Arab community will rise. You all share the same genetics. You all share the same land. You all share the same Patriarch. I think you all can figure out a way to make it work without our so-called guidance.”

    Aside from the point about the U.N. (I have a better spot for relocation, in the middle of the Atlantic) what kind of crazy sense does this make? Israel is an ally, you know, the whole diplomacy thing that Obama was preaching about before the election? If we went our seperate ways every time it was uncomfortable to have an ally, then the whole thing has lost all meaning.

    “Jesus looked more like an Arab than a white man. Deal with it.”

    Lolll, is that statement supposed to be shocking? I really don’t think anyone cares about skin color as much as beliefs and morals these days, of course, I can only speak for myself. It’s interesting that you’d see these discussions through such a lens.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    OA, the bottom line is that ask a Bible Thumper in the South about Christ. Most of the picture a white man. Talk to a Mormon missionary. Look at Mormon literature. Christ is a white man. And, in many Black Christian Churches, Christ is portrayed as an African which is probably closer than the image in the minds of unLiberty University students.

    I’ll take Ruvy and your point into consideration about the U.N. If Jerusalem is unacceptable, then Geneva it is. Insofar as Jerusalem is concerned, it belongs to the three great religions descended from Abraham = EQUALLY. Time for factions in all three camps, along with their sub-factions, cults and archaic beliefs to stop claiming Jerusalem as their own. It is not.

    Again, the only reason the United States is so intimately linked to Israel is out of political greed and advantage. The Jewish American population is a formidable bunch with an even more formidable financial war chest. And, in that regard, the Jewish lobby is as detrimental to our government as any other lobbyist on K Street. If Israelis want autonomy and independence from the United States, then it is time for them to tell their com padres to back off. Remember, it was not me who called Israel the 51st state. It was an Israeli Prime Minister. And that statement troubles me more than anything Benjamin Netanyahu can spout.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. There’s an Arab nation. I don’t think there’s a Palestinian nation. That’s a colonial invention. Since when were there Palestinians? I think there’s only an Arab nation. Until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the southern part of Greater Syria.”

    WOW! ONE guy said something you agree with. ONE man…but does that make it a true statement? Not at all.

    That ONE GUY is an Arab who is basically wanted here for sedition – that’s why he fled. He is the enemy. And he is a ” “leader”, not just some fellah leading a donkey. Quite a number of Arabs from his side have also admitted to the falsity of “Filastin”, and their use of the concept to destroy Israel and kill Jews. And that is the game of these “leaders” – to kill Jews.

    As for the Arabs who live and work here, they don’t give a shit about “Palestine”. They give a shit about making a living. It’s their “leaders” who are the problem. They only give a shit about getting rid of us – and if you are a useful idiot to them in that quest, they’ll give you tea and cakes – if not, they’ll shoot you just as surely as they’ll shoot me.

    So, I’ll make nice to the gun I carry, Glenn. My gun can “make nice” to the Arab enemy, if it comes to that. We do not need your protection. We’ve beaten the SOB’s before, and we will again, when the time comes to actually kill them off – and that time will come before it comes time to reconcile with them.

    In the meantime, I don’t care about your claims or your opinion of mine. In this country, it is what I do that counts, not what you think. And thank you for coming back and at least arguing the point with me. I take back my comment about you being a coward.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    Insofar as Jerusalem is concerned, it belongs to the three great religions descended from Abraham = EQUALLY. Time for factions in all three camps, along with their sub-factions, cults and archaic beliefs to stop claiming Jerusalem as their own. It is not.

    Jerusalem is not for you to parcel out, Silas. Jews conquered it from the Jebusites, we made it our capital, and our capital it remains. Alone.

    When Christians ruled here in the stead of the Romans they left OUR Temple Mount a garbage pit. When the Arabs conquered the city, they at least cleaned the Temple Mount. The only time Christians have really laid claim to this city is when they sent Crusaders (who massacred Jews) to conquer it, and when Polish and Russian peasants cried in their cups HEP! HEP! – Hierusalyma Est Perdita – so they could go and kill Jews.

    Generally, Christians have been a sorry spectacle with respect to Jerusalem. The only esxception to this are the English Calvinists who studied the Jewish Prophetic works and invented the word, “Zionism”, understanding the theme of rhe Prophetic works they were reading. They even built a church in Jerusalem to encourage Jews to come home!

    The Moslems have never cared about Jerusalem very much, and now they make a stink only to keep us from “Judaizing” our own city. What a joke!

    No, Silas. Jerusalem is ours alone and non-Jews come here and remain here at our sufferance.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Silas,

    Two things:

    First. Islam didn’t come about until 600 AD, and Jerusalem’s significance in Islam is but a mere waypoint (compare it to the significance of Golden Samarra, or Mecca and Medina in Islam, no contest, not even close). By contrast, in Christianity, it is the birthplace of Jesus Christ, and few things are more significant to Jews than Jerusalem. When Jerusalem was taken from the Jews in 636 AD, it had been the Jewish capital for some 3000 years, and home to the sacred second temple, which is the holiest of sites in Judaism. Yet you are quick to suggest that somehow this land should be equally divided. How Solomon of you! While we are ALL sons of Abraham, not all of us have claim to Jerusalem, it should belong to the Jews.

    But moreover, I’ve noticed a theme in your post. Specifially, we should all be shocked by the fact that Jesus probably had a good tan, the south is full of bible thumpers, and those greedy Jews and politicians get together and scheme to make those poor Palestinians so darn unhappy. The ole “Jewish Lobby” routine.

    It seems based on observing your posts, that you really see people as the ethnic attributes and stereotypes you’ve been programed to believe in. They are all people. There are special interest groups of all kinds for sure but the old formidible Jews and their war chest rhetoric is getting a bit tired, especially given recent events, especially given events over the last 10 years. Make that the last 60.

  • zingzing

    “Jerusalem is not for you to parcel out, Silas[…] we made it our capital, and our capital it remains. Alone. ”

    so it’s yours to claim? what century is this again? that city has been inhabited by peoples of various races and nationalities for thousands of years, and you think that you can claim it for yourself now? ha. good luck. jerusalem won’t reverse 2,000 years of history just because you want to be all exclusionary.

    “Jews conquered it from the Jebusites.”

    yeah, your torah tells you that. but history says that it didn’t happen that way. the canaanite society fell apart, slowly moved to other lands, and the stragglers rebuilt. if there was some conquering jewish army, where did it come from, and where is the evidence? there is no evidence to be found, of course, because jewish society was built by peaceful people, not some great mythical army.

    ruvy, it’s a holy place in all three religions. it’s also just a city. it’s a place that is inhabitable by people, therefore, all people should be allowed to be there. what if new york city suddenly up and said, “alright, only native born, white, christian americans here. all you others, get your ass out?” say what you will about america, but you’d find it racist, inhuman and stupid. who’s to say who can live somewhere? the lines drawn certainly aren’t religious.

    you must realize what a hardline jew you have become. there’s nothing wrong with being patriotic or religious or defensive (to a degree), but you’ve become everything you think you are fighting against. you’re your own biggest threat.

    don’t you see that you’re as much a product of the hatred of jews as you can become? you want to curl up with a gun in some jews-only club. that’s no way to live life.

  • zingzing

    oa: “in Christianity, it is the birthplace of Jesus Christ”

    no it isn’t. he died there, but he wasn’t born there. that’d be bethlehem. if you believe the bible, of course.

    “Yet you are quick to suggest that somehow this land should be equally divided.”

    who wants to divide it? open it. that’s the point.

    “While we are ALL sons of Abraham, not all of us have claim to Jerusalem, it should belong to the Jews.”

    why? because 1500 years ago, someone took it away from them? by those standards, luxembourg should get back all the land it has lost over the years. give luxembourg its land back! where are those cries?

    i can see the idea that jerusalem IS a jewish city. it just is, whether it’s forced or not. but the thing is, YOU SHOULDN’T FORCE IT. it doesn’t need to be some sort of rule that jerusalem is jewish. time and circumstance should decide that, not some sort of law. that’s barbaric and strange.

    it’s like the idea of saying “tokyo is a japanese city.” why, yes, it is. and then there’s your idea, which goes “tokyo is only open to japanese people.” and that sucks. it’s fucking dumb, really. i mean, it’s a country’s right to allow or disallow people to enter, but that’s done on a person-by-person basis, not because of their religion, or their skin, or whatever the fuck else you decide.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    it’s like the idea of saying “tokyo is a japanese city.” why, yes, it is. and then there’s your idea, which goes “tokyo is only open to japanese people.” and that sucks.

    Stop putting words in my mouth. You do not knows history like I do, and yoi do not know the situation in Jerusalem on the ground like I do. When I say the foreigners have to get out, I mean all those foreign governments who want to control Jerusalem from the outside – like the Russians, who want the Russian Compound to be under their sovereignty, the Vatican which wants a whole slew of the city under their sovereignty, the French, who think that because French nuns came here and live in a few little buildings, that they have the right to tell the city government what to do, and finally the damned American government, which has corrupted our politicians and our institutions and think that they have the right to order everybody around in this city – who fucks who, who gets pregnant, where neighborhoods can be built, etc. etc. etc.

    The lot of you don’t have the right to shit here! The Shield of Solomon flies over this country, this is Jewish sovereign territory, ALL OF IT, and foreigners come here on our sufferance, and no more. This doesn not mean that those who are not Jews are forbidden to live here (though this may change in the future), it means that foreigners can live here – under OUR laws – by OUR permission and upon OUR sufferance.

    To put this in terms that are clear to you, New York is an American city; the government of Israel does not get extraterritroial rights over Midwood and Boro Park, the government of Italy does not get sovereign rights over Bensonhurst, and Angela Merkel does not get to run the German tricolor over Yorville, and the Norwegians don’t get to run up their flag over the little tiny bit of Bensonhursat near the Verazzano Narrows Bridge where all those cute girls who are not blondes out of bottle live. That is the shit being attempted here.

  • zingzing

    “Stop putting words in my mouth.”

    the words were put in oa’s mouth and the use of the word “like” denotes that it was not literal.

    “You do not knows history like I do”

    well, at least my history doesn’t come out of the bible.

    “When I say the foreigners have to get out, I mean all those foreign governments who want to control Jerusalem from the outside”

    yeah, alright, fair enough.

    “who fucks who, who gets pregnant”

    i’d like to see you explain this one. what are you talking about?

    “The lot of you don’t have the right to shit here!”

    well, by all rights, you don’t have the right to decide those things either. better get elected.

    “The Shield of Solomon flies over this country, this is Jewish sovereign territory, ALL OF IT, and foreigners come here on our sufferance, and no more.”

    yeah, well, i think your country’s reasoning is that the land was “given” to your country, and the fact is that you’re too weak to defend it. it’s a lose-lose situation. we’re stuck with you, and you’re stuck with us. better get used to it. you survive “by OUR permission and upon OUR sufferance,” like it or not.

    “That [extraterritorial rights] is the shit being attempted here.”

    really. got a link to it? if that’s true, then that’s malarkey. to be honest, i don’t know why anyone would even WANT to that. sounds like a terrible investment.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    The argument from our man in the east is nonsense anyway.

    The only “justification” he has for being there at all is that some imaginary creature told them to go live there.

    The Jewish people originally come from what is now Iraq, as he full well knows. Maybe they should indeed all go home.

    It also brings a sardonic smile to my face to realise that Ruvy has more in common with other faithist extremists, those currently running Iran who believe, as he does, that the United Kingdom is the source of all evil.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    “who fucks who, who gets pregnant”

    Of all your yapping, this is worth answering. It helps to follow the news. The bossy American bastards in the state department want to extend their “settlement freeze” to all of Jerusalem beyond what is known as the kav tefer, the seam line, the former border of the city in 1966. That includes neighborhoods like Armon haNetziv in the south and Pigat Ze’ev in the north as well as Ma’ale Adumim and Har Gilo, mentioned in the Arutz Sheva story referenced. Banning natural growth means no building to accomodate children, the natural result of fucking. I just cut through all the pretty talk and got to the bottom line.

    It remains to be seen whether the gutless slug in the prime minister’s chair, Netanyahu will comply. Apparently his oh-so-competent “Security” Minister, Ehud Barak, wants to offer a three month freeze. to the Americans. I’ll let you look up the sources for that if you want, zing.

    Gutless pigs, the lot of them. But the more they surrender to the Blessed of Hussein, the more they make themselves the target of violent overthrow – getting kicked out like Ceauscescu and his Securitate in Romania 20 years ago.

    That is why I supported Obama. I want the sick, American-corrupted system ruining this nation thrown out for bowing to that evil prince of the setting sun.

    And make no mistake. America is the setting sun, on its way down.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    OA,

    You picked an appropriate title for your article – Jewish Guilt.

    There is much reason to feel guilt. But Obama is not part of that reason. Obama is a mere target marker – those Jews who bow to him here will be targets; those Jews who bow to him in America will find themselves targets of a different kind. An evil end will find all of them. Justice will be served.

    But I wish to return to a different issue. Jews are targets of hatred today because of the traditional blaming of Jews – all of us – for killing Jesus, a supposed god to Christians. But Jews are also held to account for the existence of Israel – that we dare establish some kind of safe haven for our people. We are held to account because big-ego, big-checkbook Jews in America try to do what they can (often mistakenly and misguidedly) to protect that safe haven. We are held to account for “crimes” against the “Palestinian” people, a convenient fiction created by the el-Husseini family (Amin el-Husseini, Yassir Arafat, etc.) to market the legitimacy of murdering Jews. But the el-Husseinis are not local to Israel, they are Egyptians under the spell of the Moslem Brotherhood of Egypt, a murderous sect under the spell of the equally murderous Wahhabi of Nejd.

    The Jewish Guilt I’m referring to is the rejection by Jews of G-d’s gift to them, the Land of Israel. The Children of Israel rejected this gift originally and had to wander 38 years until they all died off in the desert. Their children inherited the gift and were wise enough (for a while anyway) to follow G-d. “Religious” and secular Jews in Europe rejected this gift in the 1930’s and died in Hitler’s ovens. Now American Jews – like you – are rejecting this gift as well. This is not wise.

    No matter how much your wrap yourself in the Stars and Stripes eventually someone will go after you for being a Jew – even if you convert to another faith, trying to hide. They will say, “there’s a Yid, there’s a Yid’s kid – let’s get him!”

    Israel, as a nation, may or may not need what assets you bring here, but you need the asset that Israel will give you – relative safety from attack because of who you are. America has a $10 trillion GDP, say for argument’s sake – and at least four or five times that amount of currency in circulation in one form or another. Optimistically speaking, your economy is worth a quarter on the dollar. That means that when inflation balances out the unrealistic numbers, a bacon-egg-cheese croissant at Burger King costing $3.99 plus tax, say, will cost you $15.99 – plus tax. That’s an expensive breakfast.

    And you, the Yid, will be blamed. There are too many high profile Jews in the States not to escape blame fot the shitty condition of the economy – and when the economy goes bad, Jews get the blame. That’s how the Protestant elite running your country has the system rigged. American blacks have managed to move a notch up. But Jews – the immigrant group that has made the most of the opportunities America has offered immigrants – will get screwed.

    It doesn’t matter what ideology the goon holding the club follows. It doesn’t matter if he is a skin-head, a neo-nazi, an Obama brownshirt or someone else. When his club hits your bone, your bone will shatter – and it will hurt like hell. And that’s the point. The same will go for all of your family. The goons attacking you won’t give a shit whether your wife wears a cross or a Jewish star. They will have a Yid and a Yid’s kid, and they will make you suffer for bringing America down – even though you didn’t.

    It’ll be Europe all over again.

    The vacation is over for Jews in America, OA. It’s time to hit the road – home – while you still can.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    You’re of course right, shows how much I know about Christianity. However, my point still stands, Jerusalem is way more important to Christians than to Muslims. I have yet to hear a single person explain why it’s so important to Islam (I already know the reason).

    In any case, the time argument, that it happened 1500 years ago, is a silly one. By the same logic, if the Jews had taken back Jerusalem and Israel proper 1400 years ago instead of 60, then you’d be ok with it? How recent does the conquest have to be to be settled in your view? After all, Georgia was taken by the U.S.S.R. last year and the left wing in general, and Obama in particular, didn’t seem to have a problem with that. So is it just when Jews do it in recent times?

    As I said, fast foward a few hundred years, and the fact that the Jews took back Israel just seems like another footnote in history. In any case, it was Jewish land, and it is now Jewish land, not for you to arbit.

  • http://www.joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    I knew I shouldn’t have tarried over the comments. Usually I read the article and skip over to the end, not wanting to get in the way of the flying arrows. Now I forgot what I was going to say.

    Oh, yes. The “Jewish” guilt…

    OA, first I want to say, nicely done.

    Second, I think “buyer’s remorse” will spread from the Jews to others. I understand our president’s choice to try to win over our enemies by being a friend, but there’s something about it that makes me uneasy.

    Third, where the hell is our Secretary of State? Besides taking over energy, health care, the banks, the insurance companies and the auto industry, the President is taking over her job as well? Many of the felled protesters in Iran were women, and you’d think she’d be on it like white on rice, just for gender side of it. Or is Obama practicing keeping his friends close and his enemies closer?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I understand our president’s choice to try to win over our enemies by being a friend, but there’s something about it that makes me uneasy.”

    Why, Joanne? It works in personal relations too. Besides, we’re coming to a point in human history where cooperation rather than conflict will see us through. Enemies, too, can be won over, especially since we created a good many of them by our own actions.

    Relations between nations, no less than relations between persons, always subject to change. Nothing is written in stone.

    Surely, you’ve got to believe that.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Perhaps Jewish land is not for me to arbit. So, how about this? Christianity and Islam are the bastard children of Judaism quite like what Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses are bastardizations of Christianity. So, based upon this, if all sides agree that Judaism is the original faith then it would stand to reason that Jerusalem would rightfully go to the Jewish community.

    For too many years my tax dollars have been invested in a Middle East ’cause’ that is none of our business. I hope I say this right for Ruvy’s sake. The United States is a major part of the problem that is the Middle East. We are not the white knights on a crusade. There’s money and influence at play in the United States. The pro-Israel lobby is far too big, far too influential and even religiously driven. If we back off perhaps all factions can forge some kind of truce. I admit that I am ignorant when it comes to all the nuances involved but I’m smart enough to understand that a new generation of Israelis, Muslims and even Christians don’t need to perpetuate this so called righteous war. They’ve inherited generations of archaic thinking, repressive authority and unfathomable hate. If this generation can’t achieve a lasting peace, we at least owe it to those who will carry the torch to have a better foundation upon which to build. Isn’t that the reason we’re all here? I mean, for God’s sake, are we going to allow this hate to continue? We are what we educate.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “It works in personal relations too. Besides, we’re coming to a point in human history where cooperation rather than conflict will see us through. Enemies, too, can be won over”

    Humans are humans are humans. Doesn’t matter whether it’s 2009 or 1009. What you’re saying sounds good, which is why I think Obama’s campaign was so successful. But consider the reality, even our allies that we cooperate with aren’t that cooperative if it does not serve them. Foreign policy isn’t a marriage, except perhaps one of convenience. The fact is that just as it always was that both cooperation when possible, and conflict when necessary, is required to see us through. The big problem right now is that the American President seems to eschew conflict at all costs. We’ve seen that approach before in Neville Chamberlain and a long line of appeasers. Even in 2009, People generally won’t cooperate with someone whom they can simply run roughshod over.

    “especially since we created a good many of them by our own actions. “

    MAKE IT STOP, so sick of the blame America first crowd. As if we hold the patent on enemy creating. Puleeeeeeeze.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Silas,

    I agree with what you’re saying. Now just ask yourself, looking at the three actors in the region, which one needs educating? Jews are among the most educated in the world, and as someone who has first person experience in orthodox Judaism, I can tell you that this hatred of other religions isn’t something that is routinely taught. I have a feeling Christianity as well does not promote an ideology of hatred. Yet hate is taught in Palestinian schools as well as many other muslim-led middle east countries. Anti-semitism and in fact anti-anything-other-than-islam is codified in Sharia (Islamic law). Should both Jews, Christians and Muslims get educated when clearly only one of the three needs it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correct, hatred is being taught. And the main reason is – it serves as a buffer against tyrannic governments which exploit its own peoples (Saudi Arabia is a good example). So breeding hatred and ignorance is a well-devised strategy for diverting discontent away from the real enemy. And it works. The Arab states are still being run on the model of petty sheik dictators. The entire political map in the Middle East has got to change before peace can come into the region.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger,

    Could not have said it better myself.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This is for all of you; for Silas in particular.

    There is no “two-state” solution that is a viable one, except one that posits Jordan as the Arab state. But there are possibilities for peace, for real and lasting peace. However talking about them here is a foolish thing to do. They must be pursued quietly so that a real transformation can take place without scum from the States or Europe interfering and fucking it up.

    Let’s leave it at this; the solution requires thinking outside the box, something that is a hard sell normally, and something that conventional minds resist strongly.

    As for Jewish guilt, OA, I repeat my earlier points in comment #40. The more you try to ignore them, the more they will haunt you. The problem of the Jews in America is a simple one. They were grnted a vacation from persecution in America to allow them to prosper and thrive – so that they could return home to Israel strong and refreshed from 19 centuries of grinding persecution. But if they (you) refuse to understand this, you will find yourselves in a terrible situation in the States. What kind of disaster will overtake you there I cannot predict. But disaster will overtake you there.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    Can’t ignore that possibility. But in this case I hope reality is closer to Roger’s world view than yours, for obvious reasons.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There are enough targets available today, Ruvy, to direct one’s wrath against – the government, the corporations, you name it – rather than the Jews. Besides, it don’t really imagine the situation becoming so dire as to result in pogroms. Except for parts of the Middle East, that’s nineteenth century thinking. You’d really be hard put to identify such elements in the American culture – even among the most fundamental and ignorant of circles.

    And the idea you seem to be espousing – tracing Jew-hatred to the killing of Christ – is also on its last legs. Again, nineteenth century thinking and before.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Well now. There seems to be commonality here! Education. Education. Education. For years I have maintained that any major advance for humankind must begin with education. No doubt about it – Israeli children get a darned good education – better than in the United States. And there’s no doubt in my mind that Muslim authorities are better served by an ignorant public. If Israelis (Jews) AND Christians could agree on this basic premise imagine what could be accomplished. Teaching children about history; encouraging civic pride and duty; fostering personal accountability — these are the fundamentals of education that MUST be taught to all children whether they are in a village in Somalia or a high rise in Tel Aviv. We owe our children a legacy of enlightenment, not a sentence of hate.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Teaching children about history; encouraging civic pride and duty; fostering personal accountability — these are the fundamentals of education that MUST be taught to all children whether they are in a village in Somalia or a high rise in Tel Aviv. We owe our children a legacy of enlightenment, not a sentence of hate.

    You are on to something there, Silas. Thank you for reminding me of a project I have in my notebook to seek funding for.

    Later!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy

    You said, “Stop putting words in my mouth. You do not knows history like I do, and yoi do not know the situation in Jerusalem on the ground like I do.”

    You said that to someone else, and you took great offense at my statements that the lands of Palestine – in the grand scope of history – are NOT ‘traditionally Jewish’.

    Nor did you respond to the FACT I posted that in 1945, the VAST majority of the people in Palestine were Arab, and the vast majority of the land was owned by Palestinians.

    Please note that when I use the word ‘Palestine’, that includes all of what is today ‘Israel’…and I’m sure that infuriates you all the more.

    You also did not answer what Israel would do if terrorists set off enough ‘dirty bombs’ (which are not that hard for a nation to make) to force Israel to abandon the cities, what would you do then?

    One last thing – you mentioned how you’re walking around with a gun. Looking at that, and looking at your posts here…dude, please take no offense at this, but you need help. Those who go looking for trouble…usually find it.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Glenn,

    Walking around with a gun isn’t looking for trouble, it’s called being prepared. I know this is a hard concept to understand but should you ever become victimized you’ll hopefully understand.

    I also think given the above comments, you’re clearly not interested in thinking about anything that’s been discussed in this thread (which is off topic of the article btw) and instead wholly focused on stirring Ruvy’s pot.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    There is taking offense, and there is taking offense, if you get my meaning.

    First of all, let’s deal with the gun stuff. A person with some authority to use a gun to preserve public order, a police volunteer, for example, can fire a gun only to prevent loss of life. A person who is not deemed to have that authority generally will be jailed for discharging a bullet into the air, even if his life is under threat by an Arab mob. That is how the law works here.

    This isn’t the States, where you draw can your gun “just cuz”.

    So, I can talk one way here and “take offense” and rip into people for ignorant assumptions and the like. But I daren’t pull that pistol or rifle without imminent threat to my life – or if I’m on duty, imminent threat to the pulic.

    As to the FACT I posted that in 1945, the VAST majority of the people in Palestine were Arab, and the vast majority of the land was owned by Palestinians… you have some problems, first with the vocabulary. Jews were known as Palestinians during the days of the Mandate. The majority of the land was under the ownership of the Arabs, not the Palestinians.

    The second issue is this. On Kristrallnacht in 1938, the British released the “White Paper” shutting the doors of the Mandate to Jewish immigration. The result was that at least one million Jews who would have fled here didn’t and went up in smoke in gas chambers or starved to death, or got shot. That one million Jews would have created a Jewish majority in Mandate Palestine, something the British deliberately prevented. So, naturally, there was an Arab majority here in 1945.

    The British had followed a policy of deliberately barring land sales to Jews, so Jewish ownership of the land in the country was also deliberately retarded by the British. Put simply, the British betrayed their Mandate. That they were driven out by Jewish terrorists here was something they richly deserved for being the deceitful bastards they were. They deserved worse than they got from our terrorists.

    Your use of the term “Palestine” the Roman name of insult to our people, does not offend me at all coming from you, considering your views.

    There are other points of yours that I could dispute, but will not. There may be money to be made on an article dealing with those issues, and I’ll not queer the deal prematurely. Obviously that article will not appear here, but if I do get paid for it, I will be sure to link to it when I do raise the subject here.

    You mention dirty bombs forcing Israelis to abandon cities, probably on the coast (which is where the Jews are most thickly concentrated – though you did not specify that; I’m not putting wrds into your mouth, however).

    If this happens then I fear for the lives of the Arabs who live in Samaria, the Galil, Gaza and the Negev. They will be slaughtered in a Jewish pogrom, and it will be tragic indeed.

    And now dinner calls. I’ll return later.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Firstly, I never know that ‘Palestine’ was an insult to Judaism. Unfortunately, at the moment I do not know what name would be more appropriate since we are speaking of an area that is larger than the Israel that declared independence in 1947. Furthermore, I have to use what is given in the historical references that are accepted even by you.

    That said, if you can suggest a more appropriate or less offensive name, I’d like to hear it.

    Now, back to the discussion –

    “Jews were known as Palestinians during the days of the Mandate. The majority of the land was under the ownership of the Arabs, not the Palestinians.”

    FYI, the Arabs within the British Mandate of Palestine were considered as a subset of the Palestinians, as were the Jews.

    The reference I provided did NOT distinguish between Arabs and Palestinians, but (if you’d check the reference) clearly considers all those within the borders of the British Mandate of Palestine.

    To wit:

    # 1922, First British census of Palestine shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian.
    # 1931, Second British census of Palestine shows total population of 1,035,154 with 73.4% Muslim, 16.9% Jewish and 8.6% Christian.
    “The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population “has risen to some 450,000″ and was “approaching a third of the entire population of the country”. In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.”

    NOW, Ruvy – you blamed the British for restricting further Jewish immigration, for such would have resulted in a Jewish majority.

    Ever heard of Tibet? Of course you have. One of the most tragic things is that the Chinese are encouraging ethnic Han Chinese to emigrate to Tibet (and one must have official state permission to go from one province to another), and they are doing so to overwhelm the native Tibetan population. They have already done so with the Uighurs in Xinjiang province.

    Tell me, Ruvy – in the eyes of the Muslim Palestinians (not YOUR eyes, but THEIRS) – would allowing a sufficient number of Jews to immigrate to Palestine that they would be in the majority…would this, in their eyes, really have been any different from what the Tibetans are experiencing today?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    OA –

    It’s not that I want to ignore the issues you brought up – it’s just that Ruvy challenged, and I answered.

    It’s nothing against you, but I’ve seen this happen many, many times – a discussion gets hijacked and goes somewhere that the original author didn’t intend.

    NOW – one of the main themes in my responses to Ruvy is that while it is important that Israel stays strong, Israel needs to learn to live peaceably with her neighbors…for if you don’t learn peace, it will come back to haunt you.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Glenn, it’s fine, no worries. That said:

    “Israel needs to learn to live peaceably with her neighbors…for if you don’t learn peace, it will come back to haunt you.”

    Israel does? That’s kind of one sided, dontchathink?

  • The Obnoxious American

    “”The White Paper of 1939, which placed immigration restrictions on Jews, stated that the Jewish population “has risen to some 450,000″ and was “approaching a third of the entire population of the country”. In 1945, a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.”

    Glenn,

    What you’re missing here is, this land was originally Jewish land, taken from the Jews by the Muslims. Yes, this happened centuries earlier, but so what, that doesn’t change the reality that it was Jewish land.

    By this logic, had the U.S. sent in 100 million troops instead of 100 thousand, would that have given us some magic rights to own Iraq because Americans happened to be in the majority? Explain to me the difference between the two scenarios aside from your flippant decision that only Muslims have the right to kick Jews out of their land but not vice versa.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I never know that ‘Palestine’ was an insult to Judaism…. if you can suggest a more appropriate or less offensive name, I’d like to hear it.

    As for terms, Glenn, I tend to use the term ‘Land of Israel’ – which covers all of the State of Israel, the Heights of Golan, Jordan, and the territory south of the Litani River in Lebanon. I use the term ‘Mandate Palestine’ when it appears appropriate, as in dealing with the legal entity of that name. Arabs living inwhat was always known as South Syria have attempted to appropriate the name “Palestine” and “Palestinian” for themselves and you follow their example – unfortuntately giving them a propaganda victory (remember the words of Sun Tzu about winning without a fight). I refuse to do so.

    Now, to the meat of your assertions. In Tibet, there will be no in-migration of Tibetans into their homeland. Han Chinese inmigration is a one way deal, enforced by Chinese gunpower and the difficulty of crossing mountains.

    This was not the case with the Mandate. The British exercised careful control over Jewish in-migratrion, and allowed Arabs to cross from Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Lebanon virtually unchecked. Jews brought labor for Arabs. The Arabs liked the money earned from the labor – but they generally didn’t like the Jews paying the money. If I had to look at it from their eyes, they probably saw us as a necessary evil – the unfortunate source for increased bread on the table – and the source of additional incoime so they could bring relatives from other places….

    What happened in the Mandate during the rule of the British was very different from what is occurring under Chinese rule of Turkestan and Tibet. The condition of the Arabs improved under the Mandate. The condition of the Uigurs and Tibetans is probably deteriorating under imperial Chinese rule.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn, there was one last point that I forgot to mention to you. The British signed a solemn obligation to erect a Jewish National Home in Mandate Palestine, according to the terms of the Resolutions on Palestine of 24-25 April 1920. There were no such obligations to Arabs who had several states on the way (Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq) in the Middle East. This overturning both the spirit and letter of the Charter of the Mandate, both legally and illegally, cost at least one million Jews their lives and has embroiled this region in at least five wars that need not have been fought.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    ObAm: you’re mistaken in saying that “this land was originally Jewish land, taken from the Jews by the Muslims. Yes, this happened centuries earlier, but so what, that doesn’t change the reality that it was Jewish land.”

    The Jewish people originally came from an area that is now part of Iraq, so if we are going to play the original landowner game, let’s get the facts right.

    Ruvy’s claims are based on the assertion that a mythical creature gave the Jews the land that is currently called Israel thousands of years ago. Some people may find that argument a little thin on reasonableness.

    As to the original article, I personally don’t see that there is a concept of Jewish guilt at all, either historically or contemporaneously.

    Furthermore, Jewishness is a religion not a nationality, so most of the article is built upon bogus concepts and reasoning.

  • Horace Mungin

    This comment is addressed to the original thrust of the article:

    Americans vote for presidental candidates, for the most part, based on what the candidates say they will do for America – not what they will do for other countries. All politics are local and anyone who thinks that any group of American voters should feel guilty because that person feel his favorite country’s interest isn’t being served by an president the American people elected to serve America’s interest has his head in an unclean place and that’s cool living in that other dimension where up is both up and down at the same time. Out is in and out, yours is mine and yours, and shit is all mixed up.

    American voters, however they vote (thank G-O-D), vote what’s in the interest of America first. There is not guilt, only a sinular recrimination and wishful thinking.

  • Baronius

    Horace – You hold no ill will for Reagan for opposing sanctions against South Africa?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Christopher:

    “As to the original article, I personally don’t see that there is a concept of Jewish guilt at all, either historically or contemporaneously.

    Furthermore, Jewishness is a religion not a nationality, so most of the article is built upon bogus concepts and reasoning.”

    I’m pretty shocked that a moderator would comment in an article that they didn’t read.

    The article has NOTHING to do with Jewish nationalism OR Jewish guilt. The title refers to how I think other Jews should feel, not how they actually feel (which is unfortunate) and there is no suggestion in the article relating one way or another to the existence of Jewish guilt.

    Further, as I have said several times in this thread, starting with my first comment in the thread (#3) is that the discussion of the status or righteousness of the land of Israel is not at all what the article is about, and is actually off topic.

    Happy to have that discussion here, and figured it was inevitable, but please don’t suggest that the article is built on these bogus concepts, because it isn’t.

    Same goes for you too Horace.

    This article is about Obama’s support for Iran as well as several other issues which are not good for Jews or Americans. It’s just that Jews in particular, given our history and collective experience, should be even more keenly aware of how bad these policies are, and yet so many Jews voted for Obama which is incomprehensible. Read it, it’s a pretty interesting article if I do say so myself.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Horace is not denouncing taking a moral stance if and when possible. His argument, rather, is against the application of American interest in the negative – such as promoting the interests of some (Israel being one example) at the detriment to others.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I also think given the above comments, you’re clearly not interested in thinking about anything that’s been discussed in this thread (which is off topic of the article btw) and instead wholly focused on stirring Ruvy’s pot.

    Heh,

    OA, Obama’s actions, supporting obvious enemies of Jews, has pushed an issue that American Jews would rather not think about to the front burner – another reason I supported him, and why of all people, I have NO buyer’s remorse in having done so.

    That issue is loyalty. Are you an American or a Jew? The truth is you cannot be both, because the interests of the crumbling American empire are in direct conflict with those of the Jewish entity in the Land of Israel. If the crumbling American empire is to survive by smearing Arab faeces all over the lips of the American president and other American officials, Jewish or otherwise, and by tossing Israel under an Arab bus, eventually American Jews have to choose between being American and being Jewish.

    A whole stack of American “Jews” have walked away from Israel, choosing to be Americans, bowing to Obama, the priest of the setting sun in the West. American “Jewish” organizations are supporting a “two-state” solution, knowing in their guts that it is wrong, but trying to ignore the desire to vomit – or trying hard to convince themselves that Arabs killing Jews in Israel are no different than Jews in DP camps in Europe 63 years ago.

    DeNial can be a difficult river to navigate.

    All sorts of suicidal bullshit comes from attempting to navigate the River of Denial. “Intermarriage is inclusive“. What a nice progressive concept, one designed to hide the fact that in two generations, the Jew who has intermarried is merely a distant memory on the family tree, the ugly monkey on a tree inhabited by cute small (Christian) squirrels. This is the kinder, gentler genocide I’ve mentioned earlier.

    “Criticizing Israel and Zionism is not anti-Semitic”. What a fine concept, one that covers over the fact that the saw you wield cuts down the only real shelter Jews have against pogroms, discrimination and all the agonies of Exile – including murderous genocides.

    Are you getting the picture here? For you, and many other “American Jews”, Obama is the fork in the road. Do you choose the country you know and love – the one that is about to say “fuck you, kike, you die?” Or do you choose the country you would rather not know – the one that offers you a real chance of survival – even as a Jew?

    I saw this fork in the road a decade ago and made my choice.

    Blessings from Liberated Samaria,
    Ruvy

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy and Roger,

    “That issue is loyalty. Are you an American or a Jew? The truth is you cannot be both”

    Excellent point Ruvy, and I agree it can’t be both (unless you have dual citizenship). But, the interests of both America and Israel are not diametrically opposed. In fact, those that raise this as a choice between American values versus the needs of Israel are making yet another strawman argument, one of Obama’s most favorite tools.

    Israel wants to live in peace but due to extremist influence in the Islamic community, they are under constant threat. This same threat is faced by Americans, and not at all due to our relationship with Israel (even Osama Bin Laden, in his 1998 fatwah against the U.S., only mentioned Israel on the periphery).

    To truly appease as Obama and his ilk are wont, we’d need to stop using foreign oil, allow Sharia for Muslims regardless of location, discontinue any and all interest in the middle east (read, allow the tyrants to continue to oppress) and countless other steps on our way to Dhimitude. We wouldn’t end up with peace, we’d merely be tolerated, until we weren’t.

    Those that cast our support for Israel as a choice between war or peace with Islam have already given up the fight. When your survival is at stake, what sense does it make to disavow those who are fighting by your side (such as Israel)? None. Unless you are willing to go softly into that night. I’m not.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    ObAm, but I did read your article, so your response to my comment is misplaced. I guess you are better at “transmit” than “receive”…

    I don’t see that Obama is supporting Iran at all, nor have I seen anybody make a plausible case that he is.

    Vastly amused to see Ruvy perpetrating his speaking with forked tongue so continuously, as if ignoring people who can rebut his nonsense would make them wrong.

    There is no conflict of loyalty between “American and Jew”. One is a nationality, the other is a religion. Apparently the latter is causing terminal paranoia in some people, to say nothing of a fondness for gutter language.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correct. To assume there is such a conflict is to assume most of the American Jews are schizophrenic. Of course, Ruvy does come awfully close to saying this very thing.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The Jewish people originally came from an area that is now part of Iraq, so if we are going to play the original landowner game, let’s get the facts right.

    Ruvy’s claims are based on the assertion that a mythical creature gave the Jews the land that is currently called Israel thousands of years ago

    Let’s clarify this for the erudite scholar from the Isle of Wight (I knew studying that gazetteer would come in handy one day!) and for the rest of you. It’s not as simple as Chris would have you think.

    avrahám ha’ivrí Abraham who crossed over, came from Sumer, in what is now known as Iraq. However, yehúda Judah, was born in Syria and had his children in the Land of Israel, then known as Canaan. The descendants of Judah, the Jews, arose in the Land of Israel. So we Jews trace our anscestry to the Land of Israel, being the descendants of one of the few original Sumerians to survive many disasters in the ancient world.

    My beliefs are that G-d – not some mythical creature – gave this land as a gift to the Children of Israel, but that is not an issue I have raised here on this comment thread.

    I have cited the sovereignty of the Jewish People over all of the Land of Israel based on the Resolutions on Palestine adopted on 24-25 April 1920, in San Remo, Italy by the victorious powers who divided up the Middle East after the Great War. They, the victors, divided the spoils of war.

    These Resolutions are the only real international law applying to the Land of Israel, and everything that has followed to contravene or contradict these Resolutions are null and void – including Resolutions 181 of the UN General Assembly (1947), dividing the remnant of the Palestine Mandate in two, and Resolution 242 of the UN General Assembly (1967), attempting to undo the victory of the IDF in the Six Day War.

    Those are the facts, laid out straight and clear, even clear enough for the erudite scholar from the Isle of Wight.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    It is funny how one person’s facts are another person’s superstitious nonsense.

    To take Ruvy’s point remotely seriously, he would have to prove that this god creature actually exists, something that nobody except some silver tongued con artists have successfully achieved in over 6,000 years.

    As you are now so enamoured of facts, Ruvy, you could start by getting it into your head that I am on the Isle of Wight, not from it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My beliefs are that G-d – not some mythical creature – gave this land as a gift to the Children of Israel, but that is not an issue I have raised here on this comment thread.

    Actually, I have raised this issue – but not with respect to the ownership of the Land. I have raised it with respect to the consequences of Jews rejecting the gift that G-d gave them – which is more germane to the original intended subject of OA’s article. And repeat this point for OA and all the other Jews resident in Exile to read, understand and absorb.

    Jews who reject the gift of the Land of Israel will come to a bad end for having rejected one of the three essential covenants that Judaism is based on – the Covenant of the Land. This has happened before – and it will happen again.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Chris,

    I receive just fine. Your comment was pretty clear “I personally don’t see that there is a concept of Jewish guilt at all” this statement is ignorant of the article, in which the words “Jewish Guilt” do not appear. It’s the title, and a play on words… sheesh do i need to explain everything?

    Second comment of yours “Jewishness is a religion not a nationality, so most of the article is built upon bogus concepts and reasoning” I never argued that Jewishness was a nationality. Is Christianity a nationality? Yet many people vote based on their Christian views. My good man, I recieve just fine, you may want to check the TX on your modem…

    Roger,

    Of course there is a conflict. As espoused by those such as Silas, that argue that an American First foreign policy means leaving Israel out to dry. And this is a legit viewpoint, I just disagree. Israel is an ally. If we dropped allies every time our enemies wanted us to, then we would have lost WW II. In full on appeasement mode, this concept of dropping an ally who inflames our enemies might make sense. Until you wake up and realize that the whole point of allies are to help us stand up to our enemies.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t view what’s happening of the foreign policy front as “appeasement mode.” I see it rather as forging a new era in foreign relationships. Will there be some “casualties” but, more properly perhaps, a reconfiguration of the geopolitical map?
    Definitely! But it’s definitely worth a try because whatever we’ve been doing in the past doesn’t work.

  • Clavos

    Many Jews are Jewish before American, including my best friend, who was born and raised in Michigan.

    I see nothing wrong with that, I am many things, including Mexican, before American. The whole concept of holding one’s nationality (which, in most cases, is owed to nothing more than an accident of birth) is at the root of much of the world’s strife. what nationalism doesn’t foment can be chalked up to religion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, how then regarding yourself as a Mexican first any different? Besides, a sense of nationality doesn’t have to entail a false sense of patriotism.

    It’s rather interesting to note, in this connection, that the Right is more guilty of that then the Left, for which reason the Left is regarded as a sell-out.

  • Horace Mungin

    Baronius, from what little you know of me, you know I didn’t vote for Ronald Ray-gun. I’ll tell you why – it was for his domestic policies. Now re-read what I said and tell me how you formulated that question as a retort.

  • Horace Mungin

    So if Obama’s Middle East policy isn’t what drove Jewish voters to favor him, then what was it?

    Could it have been his domestic policies?

  • The Obnoxious American

    “I see it rather as forging a new era in foreign relationships. Will there be some “casualties” but, more properly perhaps, a reconfiguration of the geopolitical map?.”

    When you say New Era, you mean buddying up with Iran and Venezuela while eschewing Israel and the UK. Smart.

    “Definitely! But it’s definitely worth a try because whatever we’ve been doing in the past doesn’t work.”

    Really? Haven’t we been safe? Hasn’t Ahmadinejad complained about sanctions? Hasn’t Jong Il been at least a little delayed in his creation of a nuke (which btw would be inevitable for anyone so inclined and with even a modacom of assets). What the h*** are you talking about it’s not working.

    If you think what we’ve been doing in the past is plainly not working, just wait until Neville Chamberlain the Second gets to fully implement his plan.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “Could it have been his domestic policies?

    Horace, I know you’re still on Page 3 of the article (by this comment of yours). I go into detail on all why Obama’s domestic stances are clearly at odds with Judaism.

    Keep reading, you’re almost there!

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger,

    I’ll grant you one thing that we should change, we should be even tougher on our enemies and confront evil with a stronger, more united front.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Horace,

    I know you’ve been around a long time and been around the block more times than I, but let me tell you a bit about us Jews.

    The ones with the “conservative” moral values are the ones who tend to vote Republican. This is also true of Jews who attempt to observe the Sabbath and keep kosher. These Jews are the ones to whom Israel and its fate matters. They are the minority. In Minnesota, where I had joined the DFL because the Republicans were too “churchy” for me, the more I became observant in the faith, the more Jewish law mattered to me, the more Israel mattered top me, the more the DFL disgusted me.

    Most Jews, even ones who attend a conservative synagogue or a reform temple, have liberal social values and DO NOT try to keep kosher or keep the Sabbath. These liberal social values are their real religion – that and their victimhood in the holocaust. Their real places of worship are not synagogues but holocaust museums, and their big value is “not to be like a Nazi”. G-d gets shoved off to the side, Israel is an inconvenience and the native language of the people (Hebrew) is to them, the foreign one. These are the Jews who voted for Obama, and they fell for him, hook latke and mezuzah.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I you regard our present status and influence in the world as satisfactory, then we definitely disagree.

    Anyway, I’m gonna abandon this thread for a while: I don’t want to hog it by making too many comments (so I’ve been told).

    Enough for today.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Horace,

    I’m sorry, I wasn’t clear. In comment #83, I was describing American Jews. We in Israel are a whole different jar of herring.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger,

    I’m not saying it couldn’t be better. But to suggest what we’ve been doing is simply not working at all is not true, and befriending the likes of Ahmadinejad while slapping Israel who is a real ally, or worse, leaving it without our backing in a sea of enemies, is a giant leap in the wrong direction.

    And I don’t think you post too much, you’re always welcome to talk with me (we just might argue a bit :>)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We’re not befriending Iran – just marking time. And Israel is no real ally, not if you go by what Ruvy says. But anyway, I am checking out.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    OA stated, “Israel wants to live in peace but due to extremist influence in the Islamic community, they are under constant threat. This same threat is faced by Americans, and not at all due to our relationship with Israel (even Osama Bin Laden, in his 1998 fatwah against the U.S., only mentioned Israel on the periphery).”

    That’s a true statement. In fact, the one-time al-Qaeda second-in-command Zarkawi stated that the main Sunni enemy was not even America, but the Shi’a!

    I think I’ve told you before that if Israel were smart, you’d make nice with both the Shi’a and the Sunni and play them off against each other, because they both hate each other more than they hate Israel or America!

    This is called diplomacy – and playing off one enemy against the other is FAR more effective (and much less expensive) than antagonizing and warring against both enemies at the same time.

    Ruvy, I think perhaps that’s the biggest misconception among those of a conservative bent (and despite what you state, I include you in that group) – that if one makes nice with one’s enemies, it’s somehow appeasement or even treasonous, or giving in to that enemy’s demands.

    That is conservative thought – we can hear it every day by those who defend America’s use of torture. They forget that one draws a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    Let me give you an example. What if, say, Israel were to go ahead and allow the Palestinian state to be established – and not just tolerated it, but encouraged it publicly and even provided funding to support it?

    What if Israel then publicly encouraged the Palestinians’ patriotism, and even pledged military assistance if requested against any foreign aggression.

    Would many Palestinians assume this was a political trick? Yes, perhaps even most would – and they’d be right. But on the other hand, many would believe that Israel was finally trying to help rather than hurt, and they’d be less likely to support terrorist strikes against Israel.

    As the infomercial said, “But wait! That’s not all!”

    What if at the same time the Mossad looked to see which was stronger at the moment – the Shi’a or the Sunni, but for now the Shi’a – and then surreptitiously began a misinformation campaign that hurt that country, to help weaken it and tear it down to where it was no longer more powerful than the Sunni? And then if the Sunni were more powerful, do the same thing to them in turn.

    The goal of this would be to play off the Sunni against the Shi’a, to keep them roughly equal in strength so that neither was strong enough to defeat the other, and neither would risk attacking Israel because it would weaken them to the point that they could not defend themselves against the other Muslim sect. At the same time, with a more peaceful and prosperous Palestine, Israel builds trade and earns profits, and as time goes on the Palestinians hate Israel less and less, and began to trust Israel more – for that’s what tends to happen when a more powerful country helps a smaller, weaker country.

    Do you see where I’m going with all this? The path I advocate in no way weakens Israel’s position, but strengthens it while weakening the Muslim positions! Always remember Sun Tzu’s maxim that the acme of generalship is to defeat the enemy without fighting! YES, Islam is an enemy of Judaism, and no mistake – but there are more effective ways to fight than to always resort to violence.

  • Horace Mungin

    OA, understand this: American policy, has only to be in-line with American interest, regardless of it being at odds with the interest other inities.

    America first and foremost.

  • zingzing

    oa: “In any case, the time argument, that it happened 1500 years ago, is a silly one. By the same logic, if the Jews had taken back Jerusalem and Israel proper 1400 years ago instead of 60, then you’d be ok with it?”

    um, yes? what doesn’t make sense about that?

    “How recent does the conquest have to be to be settled in your view?”

    well, for it to actually be a conquest… something relatively natural, at any rate, would be nice. if it had been fought over instead of the west saying, “fuck off arabs, here come your new jewish neighbors,” then there wouldn’t be much to say. so it’s not a time issue. it’s how it was done.

    “As I said, fast foward a few hundred years, and the fact that the Jews took back Israel just seems like another footnote in history.”

    i hope so. but i’m not sure that that’s the case.

    “In any case, it was Jewish land, and it is now Jewish land, not for you to arbit.”

    nor you. it’s just land.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Of all your yapping, this is worth answering.”

    coward. (by your own words.)

    your settlement freeze thing is a little disingenuous. obviously, the point of the freeze isn’t to keep people from fucking. that’s like saying cocaine is supposed to give you a headache. it’s a side effect.

    “And make no mistake. America is the setting sun, on its way down.”

    down, down, down we go together.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    If you ignore the real roots of Arab terror – the ideas of al-Wahhab – and if you ignore the terror and violence itself – you make some sense.

    But among the Arabs (and lots of other Moslems as well), there is a third party, the Wahhabi, who have hijacked control of Makka and Medina, and who pretend to be real Moslems when they are in fact heretics to Islam. They have spread their influence through three general routes, not all of which agree all the time; one is the Wahhabi faith of the regime in Arabia; a second is the infiltration of the Moslem Brotherhood of Egypt, and thus through to both Hamas and el-FataH; the third is a movement in India (the name escapes me at the moment) which is the root of the Taliban.

    That is what I will discuss on-line. Much of the rest will be reserved for a paying article – something I cannot discuss right now, and therefore, will not refute your points.

    Generally, though, yes I comprehend your strategy, but do not agree that it would work – partly because you ignore the influence of the Wahhabi, and partly because of these issues which I cannot discuss at present.

    Thank you though, for outlining your thoughts in such a clear and coherent way.

    And now I must bid all of you a good evening. It is almost midnight here, and trouble-makers like me need their beauty sleep.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    So you’re sitting atop the mount deciding when the statute of limitations on stolen land is eh? Good to know people in high places. Fact is, you’re drawing a completely arbitrary line in the sand.

    Glenn,

    I actually agree with what you’re saying about Israel should play shia against sunni (note this time and date down). But I don’t agree that this is what I am chastizing Obama for. He’s being weak, not smart. And weak isn’t smart.

  • zingzing

    oa: “So you’re sitting atop the mount deciding when the statute of limitations on stolen land is eh? Good to know people in high places. Fact is, you’re drawing a completely arbitrary line in the sand.”

    no… by what you say, we should give this land (america) back to the indians. maybe that would be fair, in some regards, but it’s also not going to happen. by your reasoning, why shouldn’t we give this land back? or should we?

    what i’m saying is that israel exists because of a totally unnatural political disturbance. that land is no more naturally jewish than it is anything else. the jews “arrived” there after the canaanites, but i don’t see you saying anything about canaanite rights.

    it isn’t me who drew an “arbitrary line in the sand,” it’s the west after ww2. and it wasn’t even in the sand, it was on a map, with no foresight into what kind of a mess they actually were making in the sand.

    the straight-up fact is that for centuries upon centuries, that place was NOT jewish. history had moved on in the way that it does. it wasn’t jews “we” fought during the crusades. and it wasn’t jews who were pushed off their land by us after ww2.

    if you want a jewish safe haven, it would have been best to let it occur naturally. as it is, the arabs of the area aren’t too keen on the idea, so israel finds itself embroiled in constant war. yay! what a safe haven we have created for the jews. so safe. oh yeah, watch out for that missile attack. and your neighbors might want to “wipe you off the map.” but it’s better than the nazis, ja?

    we went about this in the wrong way. by doing it how it was done, israel is unsafe, the arabs are mad, and we’re caught in the middle with no way out.

    you can’t say you think this israeli experiment has worked out as hoped, can you?

  • The Obnoxious American

    “no… by what you say, we should give this land (america) back to the indians. maybe that would be fair, in some regards, but it’s also not going to happen. by your reasoning, why shouldn’t we give this land back? or should we?”

    Not my preference, especially because I live here, but also because the native Americans, by their own culture, didn’t own this land either. That said, you could make that same case yes. And it may yet happen that some power comes in and takes America from us. Some believe that illegal Mexican immigration is a slow form of this.

    “what i’m saying is that israel exists because of a totally unnatural political disturbance. that land is no more naturally jewish than it is anything else. the jews “arrived” there after the canaanites, but i don’t see you saying anything about canaanite rights.”

    OK, so let me get this straight. Muslims take Israel by force, and this is natural, but when the land is given to the Jewish people, land they held until the aforementioned taking by force, by the international community, THIS is unnatural. Hahahaaa I guess this type of extreme logic escapes my humble sensibilities.

    And yes, if the canaanites still existed, then you could argue that they had a claim to the land, though I think god may have had a say in that one.

    “the straight-up fact is that for centuries upon centuries, that place was NOT jewish. “

    Right, but for several millenia, it was Jewish. And now it’s Jewish again. As I said earlier, you’re being excruciatingly arbitrary. Either no one has a claim on the land, or the people that live there now do. You can’t just delineate that from 600ad to 1930 the people living there were legitimate, but what happened before and after is not. Unless you just don’t like Jewish people which may be a distinct possibility.

    It’s also interesting that you brought up the crusades, which were fought in part to liberate land stolen by Muslims.

    You talk about a Jewish safe haven, as a Jew, I can tell you no such thing exists, but at least we have Israel, the closest thing to it. Constant war? Not really.

    And as I and others have mentioned, the Arabs are mad, but not about Israel. The powers that be in the Arab world just use Israel as a point of contention to distract from Islam’s true enemies, the very powers that be in the Arab world. Considering that this article was talking a lot about Iran, it’s worth reiterating that Iran, no hero to the Arab people as a whole, or Iranians in general (yes, I know Iranians are not actually Arab), sponsors terrorism in Israel. If they really wanted to help those poor palestinians, they could build schools and hospitals and provide loans for Palestinian businesses. Instead they provide C4 and ball bearings. And people who can’t think for themselves just lap it all up and agree with likes of Iran that the problem isn’t the leadership in the Arab world, it’s just all Israel’s fault.

    Then again, why should I be surprised. A similar routine was used here recently in order for the leftists, who generally agree that Israel is the problem in the middle east, to cast Bush as the root of all of our problems. Yet he wasn’t and Israel wasn’t. We got Obama and his anti-Israeli platform. Now you’re suggesting that we double down, diss our only real ally in the region because he isn’t popular with our enemies.

    Ever heard the term, “Useful idiot?”

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    When you refer to the Wahhabi influence, I’m writing with the assumption that the Wahhabis are the driving force behind much of the Sunni world’s actions (at least in the Western hemisphere).

  • zingzing

    oa: “OK, so let me get this straight. Muslims take Israel by force, and this is natural, but when the land is given to the Jewish people, land they held until the aforementioned taking by force, by the international community, THIS is unnatural. Hahahaaa I guess this type of extreme logic escapes my humble sensibilities.”

    yes, muslims took the area by force 1400 years ago. the thing is, that was 1400 years ago. but then in the late 40s, the international community just told the arabs to get out and planted israel right in the middle of it. do you not see the difference? if it isn’t wrong, it’s profoundly stupid.

    “Right, but for several millenia, it was Jewish. And now it’s Jewish again. As I said earlier, you’re being excruciatingly arbitrary. Either no one has a claim on the land, or the people that live there now do.”

    that’s my point. no one has an absolute claim to the land. it’s been open to whomever may come for centuries. and that’s the way it should be.

    “You can’t just delineate that from 600ad to 1930 the people living there were legitimate, but what happened before and after is not. Unless you just don’t like Jewish people which may be a distinct possibility.”

    what happened before was legitimate. what happened 1400 years ago, even if it was a product of war, stood for over 13 centuries. but what happened after ww2 was not legitimate, unless you want to say that britain owned palestine.

    as for your last sentence, go shove it. you know that’s not the point. the jewish people are fine. the state of israel is a problem, whether or not you believe in its legitimacy, whether or not you side with the jewish people, whether or not you want such a place to exist. it’s a political nightmare, and is at the root of so many problems in the region.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    OA –

    Date and time written down.

    Now what’s weak about Obama’s stance? Nothing.

    Why is that?

    Well, first you need to understand what’s going through the mind of Ahmad Doe:

    Picture this: Russia’s suddenly Muslim…and a few Mexican terrorists go fly a couple of airliners into Russia’s two largest buildings. Russia invades and takes over Mexico.

    Does America blame Russia? Not that much…but we’re awful doggone concerned about a Russian military presence on the other side of the Rio Grande.

    But THEN the Russian president says he’s absolutely positive that Canada (CANADA!) was involved, too – and so Russia invades and takes over Canada!

    Are we concerned? Bet your ass we’re concerned…and as a result we elect the hard-line right-wing ass-kicker to protect us! (Please forgive my cusswords – I don’t normally use them, but such are apropos here)

    Well, time goes on and there’s an election…and we reelect the ass-kicker (even though there seems to be fraud in an American election (imagine that!)). Millions of Americans protest in the streets that the election was rigged…

    …but what does the Russian president do?

    If he keeps his mouth shut, his own people see him as weak.

    BUT if he publicly supports the peacenik challenger who ‘lost’ the election…

    …the American people have Russian troops across our northern and southern border, and the Russians have told us before how evil we are…so WHAT DO YOU THINK the American people would do if the Russian president speaks out in support of the peacenik?

    That’s RIGHT! ALL of us line up behind the ass-kicker, and we start kicking up the production line of the nuclear weapons.

    THAT, OA, is why Obama’s smart to keep his mouth shut.

    P.S. My example doesn’t fit completely, because Russia didn’t engineer a coup in America half a century ago…like we did in Iran.

  • The Obnoxious American

    I know some will dismiss this outright due to the source, but an interesting read in the WT today: Clinton urged Obama to talk tougher on Iran

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    and that stupid famiuly values group that is run by women so ugly that they don’t even know what sex is.

    By this you either mean Eagle Forum or NOW. I’m for getting rid of both.

    Dave

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    You’re still being completely arbitrary.

    First off, you’re wrong, it hasn’t been 1400 years of Muslim rule. Read up on the history, the land of Israel has been highly contested since about 600 ad, changing hands between the Christians and Muslims for centuries thereafter. The more correct description is that Muslims had held Israel for about 700 contiguous years, following the last crusade.

    That said, I think you need to reconsider what you mean by natural versus unnatural. Muslims taking the land from the Jews, who held it for three THOUSAND years is “natural” in your book, but Jews taking the land back from the Muslims, by deign of the International community, is somehow not? By this fractured logic, would it have been better if the Jews had taken this land by force, rather than by consensus of international community? What kind of sense does that even make? Hence my charges of absolute and total arbitraryness in your argument.

    And if you are looking for the taking by force, then the Jews did that during the “Catastrophy” and the 1967 war. Or is taking by force only legitimate when Muslims do it, or by some length of time that you deem fit? Totally and absolutely arbitrary.

    The fact is, the Jews have lived in Israel for going on 70 years. So when you talk about the illegitimacy of Israel, the idea you are espousing affects real people who are alive today and live, have businesses and family there now. Even the Palestinians who were affected by the creation of the Israeli state, most are not even alive anymore. Those that are were supposed to go to Jordan, and Jordan refused. They have land now, they COULD build a state. Here’s a newsflash, you don’t need the UN to tell you to start acting and functioning like a real state. You just need to setup a government with rules, leaders, and start providing for your people. Israel isn’t keeping the Palestinians from doing this. If the terrorist factions in Gaza and the WB stopped attacking Israel, then this whole war would be over. What are they waiting for?

    I am not quick to toss out speculation about others views, but your (and many others) sheer arbitrary position on this, that somehow it’s only legitimate when Muslims take something Jewish, sure seems like some form of prejudice to me. If I am wrong, so be it, but I’d like you to explain to me how, given what I just said above.

  • zingzing

    “First off, you’re wrong, it hasn’t been 1400 years of Muslim rule.”

    i never said it had been.

    “That said, I think you need to reconsider what you mean by natural versus unnatural. Muslims taking the land from the Jews, who held it for three THOUSAND years is “natural” in your book, but Jews taking the land back from the Muslims, by deign of the International community, is somehow not?”

    yep. they didn’t take it back. we, who did not own it, GAVE it to them.

    “By this fractured logic, would it have been better if the Jews had taken this land by force, rather than by consensus of international community? What kind of sense does that even make?”

    well, that’s how land changes hands. it wouldn’t have been good that way, but it would have had some sort of historical precedent.

    “Hence my charges of absolute and total arbitraryness in your argument.”

    so how is that we, who do not own the land, can give it to someone else, and that’s not arbitrary? that’s arbitrary twice over! why is it ok for us to do that? where’d that notion come from?

    (are you beginning to see that nothing much makes sense in that entire region?)

    “So when you talk about the illegitimacy of Israel, the idea you are espousing affects real people who are alive today and live, have businesses and family there now.”

    of course it does. but not much, if at all, in any real way. i’m not only saying that the modern state of israel is illegitimate to begin with, i’m saying it was a damn foolish idea to begin with.

    “If the terrorist factions in Gaza and the WB stopped attacking Israel, then this whole war would be over. What are they waiting for?”

    their land, apparently.

    “…that somehow it’s only legitimate when Muslims take something Jewish, sure seems like some form of prejudice to me.”

    good god. have you not been paying attention? i don’t give a shit about the muslims or the jews! if the situation had been reversed, i’d still be complaining. don’t you see that? what i don’t like is when WE take something that isn’t ours and give it to someone else who has no right to it either.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing, in the REAL world, the victors conquer the enemy, and divvy up the spoils.

    That is what happened here. The United States, Britain, France and Italy met in San Remo in the spring of 1920 and divvied up the non-Trukish sections of the Turkish Enpire that they had conquered. Some of the resolutions they passed dealt with Mesopotamia, some with Syra/Lebanon and some with the Land of Israel. Since they were the victors, and they were the conquerers, they decided, on 24 and 25 April, to give sovereignty over the Land of Israel to the Jewish people in perpetuity – that means forever. They gave the British the task of creating a Jewish State, what they called a “Jewish National Home”, and they reserved special rights for the communities of French nuns who had settled there in this Jewish state-to-be. The resident Arabs were to have civil rights, but not political rights.

    Those were the decisions of the victors of the Great War with respect to the non-Turkish territory that they called “Mandatr Palestine.”

    In the unreal world created by the Jew-haters in the American state department, Jewish victors in war must give up the spoils of victory to the undeserving losers and suffer in silence while these same losers arm themselves to be terrorists and kill the victors.

    What I work for is the day when the Jew-haters in the American state department get a solid dose of the REAL world. A world where Jewish victors kick out the American assholes, kill the Arab murderers they have trained, kill all the 11,000 Arab terrorists in jail (to make room for Jewish criminals), kill the Jwish “leaders” the judenrat the Americans have corrupted, and establish a Jewish state in all of the Land of Israel west of the Jordan, and eventually extend it east of the Jordan and to the Litani River when the time is right. If that takes nuking a few Arab cities, an Iranian city or two, so what? They are willing to exterminate us like cockroaches and have proven that willingness – we should return the favor – in spades. When the Arabs and their running dogs the Persians, comee on theie hands and knees and beg for peace – that is when they should get peace – maybe.

    If the rest of you dson’t like it (especially you, zing), you can all burn in hell for all I care.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Zing,

    While I appreciate your tenacity, even you must realize just how arbitrary you’re being. And it’s hard to believe that such absolute, brainless, thoughtless and frankly heartless arbitrariness could be ascribed to anything other than prejudice. Perhaps when they publish, “The World According to Zing” your non-sequitors will matter. Perhaps.

  • zingzing

    to each his own arbitrary nature, oa. i find your reasoning equally puzzling. dragons.

  • The Obnoxious American

    I’m not arbitrary, I’m using the same rules that you are for defining what is considered “natural” in terms of who can claim what rights to what country. I am recognizing that land belonging to one peope can be taken from them by force. That the Muslims could take Israel in 600ad is as ok as Jews taking Israel back in 1940. This is a consistent and not arbitrary viewpoint.

    You’re applying one set of rules for Jews and one set for Muslims. Muslims can take Israel by force back in 600ad, and thats ok. Jews cannot take Israel back by force and consent in 1940, this is not ok. This is not a consistent viewpoint, and therefor arbitrary.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    What you’re ‘working toward’ is the end of Israel, for you have no hope to win such a war. All your dream is, is a pipe dream – and one that causes far more harm than good.

    Did you learn nothing by my post on diplomacy? Being ‘nice’ to one’s neighbors does NOT mean ‘giving in’ to one’s neighbors. Diplomacy is nothing more than a tool used to support one’s national interests.

    Unfortunately, you seem to be one of those whose only tool is a hammer…and when one’s only tool is a hammer, all problems look like nails.

    Ruvy, a wise general once said, “The only thing half so bad as a battle lost, is a battle won.” Sure, you may have seen the results of terrorist attacks, and you may have heard war stories and saw pictures and movies, but your actual knowledge and understanding of war…is next to nothing. Otherwise, you would not be so eager to wage war on your neighbors.

    You can claim otherwise till you’re blue in the face, but your rank ignorance and lack of understanding of war is clearly evinced by your eagerness for war…and it is plain as day to all of us who actually do have a clue about war.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    There is no possibility for the cow to negotiate with his slaughterer. We are not cows, Glenn, and I am not eager for war. I have a son who will have to go into the army soon, and I do not want to see him sent into battle for nothing. The primary waepon I have recommended is nuking the enemy, no invading him.

    I do bot want to see my son sent into Gaza or to Lebanon for nothing – to die for nothing. Better to destroy the Aswan High Dan, (not with nukes!!!) kill 50 million Egyptians in the process of allowing Lake Nasser to flood the country, and flood out Gaza with all the extra water hitting the High Sea from the Nile.

    I do not want to risk Jewish boys on useless military operations. Better that Arabs die en masse – better still that Arabs understsnd that the leader of Israel is willing to exterminate them en masse without remorse. Then war will not be necessary.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Ruvy,

    I understand your concern for your son, but I can’t agree with you on that, and I’d be surprised if anyone does even most Israelis.

    The obvious problem with what you’re suggesting is, it’s the nuclear option. Literally and figuratively. What happens when you use the nuclear option? You have no more options. If Israel ever did that, then any of Israel’s enemies would be justified at any point in the future of returning fire. Sure, Ahmadinejad talks a good game about doing the same to Israel. But I suspect he’d never do it, because again, it’s the nuclear option.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Not to mention the other fact, doing this would obviously be wrong. Not only wrong, but it would validate the opinion of so many that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is indeed genocide.

    Israel’s actions are not genocide. She would not be served in engaging in such behavior, especially considering that the Jewish people have been the victim of the same crime.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    OA,

    Israel was tried and convicted of genocide long ago by the Arabs, and they have been pumping the bullshit around, with loads of believers for about three and a half decades or more. Israeli leaders constantly have to keep a weather eye out for warrants accusing them of war-crimes.

    If you are going to convict someone of rape, and treat him as a pariah on the basis of that conviction – especially when he is innocent – he might as well enjoy raping a few women and killing them – remember, he was convicted already, and the conviction is the basis for how he is treated.

    We have no reason to give a damn what the goyim thimk. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    You [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] do not respect or take your enemies seriously. A best seller in the Arab world is Mein Kampf – precisely because the man who wrote it did not bullshit around. He was responsible for the deaths of six million Jews – just in case you forgot. He said what he would do and why; and when he got into power, he followed his program.

    Ahmadinejad (and ther assholes backing him) are playing messianic politics. They actually do believe in the coming of the Mahdi and their responsibility to present him as ruler of the world from the Temple Mount. Your problem, because you do not take G-d or being a Jew seriously at all, is that you cannot understand anybody who has real faith.

    This is where you and I differ. I also believe in messianic politics. There will be a messiah and he will redeem our nation (those of us who deserve it, anyway) and he will rule the world.

    So, if I can take that concept seriously, I can respect and believe someone else who does. Ahmadinejad, and the assholes who back him up, are acting out of faith. And they will use missiles to attack Israel – though they will not attack Jerusalem with nuclear weapons – they would be shooting themselves in the foot. They will attack Tel Aviv. But before they do that, they will bombard and attack Israel with enough thousands of missiles from Lebanon so that they will be able to bombard Tel Aviv with a nuke or two, murdering off at least a million or two million Jews in one shot. Thus they too, will not have to send Persian soldiers into harm’s way. The Lebanon war of 2006 was a practice session for the next round – the killer round.

    We in Israel can sit and wait for the bastards to hit – the preferred policy of the American assholes manipulating the Israeli leaders like puppets – or we can nuke the bastards before they can strike.

    If we hit Teheran, we will likely hit the command and control center, not only for the missile strike force from Iran, but more importantly, for HizbAllah and to a lesser degree, Hamas. If we nuke Damascus as well, we will leave the bastards in south Lebanon (as well as Syria) without a leader. If we nuke Riyadh, the entire Wahhabi world will be in chaos. That means that Jewish kids do not have to go into harm’s way against a well organized enemy. They will have to go into harms way, but at least kids like my son will have a chance, and will understand the desperation of the enemy they will fight.

    There is another issue that you, being an American on the East Coast, would not think of. Nukes are our weapons. We did not acquire them from the States, and depleting their stocks doesn’t mean the States will replace them. There is no issue of having to go to America to buy more, in other words. This is action that can be taken independent of the States – entirely. Using block busters, or certain kinds of missiles, on the other hand, depletes stocks received from the States.

    One important question that Glenn raised on this issue – will Israel’s nuclear stock still work? This is an important question that needs to be addressed and solved.

    You just don’t live in the neighborhood, man. You do not understand the back streets. Even Glenn understands the Middle East better than you do, whatever his views are; and whether we agree or not, I can respect his real knowledge.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    More news live from the Stone Age: “If you are going to convict someone of rape, and treat him as a pariah on the basis of that conviction – especially when he is innocent – he might as well enjoy raping a few women and killing them – remember, he was convicted already, and the conviction is the basis for how he is treated.”

    It is a weird kind of pleasure to watch how Ruvy and Ahmedinejad have so much in common. Both approve of nuking Tel Aviv, both have no respect for women, knowledge or eduction, both thrive on pushing fear and hatred, both hate Britain and the USA.

  • http://users.beagle.com.au/peterl P.M.Lawrence

    This may be, as Sam Goldwyn put it, puring oil on troubled flames, but the Palestinians aren’t actually interlopers, or at any rate no more than the Jews of earlier generations – because they are by and large descendants of Jews who converted to Christianity or Islam (either directly or via Christianity). This can be seen from genetic testing, Ottoman tax records and so on (as late as the 17th century an entire village of Jews converted, for tax reasons).

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    P.M.,

    You let the cat out of the bag.

    Meow!!

    Make sure to watch the video at this blog site, though, to understand whet is being said.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Better that Arabs die en masse – better still that Arabs understsnd that the leader of Israel is willing to exterminate them en masse without remorse.”

    you have learned nothing. if you get what you want, i hope that whoever eventually wins gives israel to the arabs as a safe haven from people like you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    You posted: “I also believe in messianic politics. There will be a messiah and he will redeem our nation (those of us who deserve it, anyway) and he will rule the world.”

    Then where is your faith? I am Christian, therefore I also believe in the return of a Messiah – therefore I also know that in time, everything will be OK. I do not know Jewish beliefs on the Messiah…but I suspect that, like our own, God will end all on His time and not our own. We may suspect we know when it will happen, but we don’t – and even Jesus doesn’t, as He Himself said. Only God knows.

    So trust God and not nuclear weapons, Ruvy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    We’re taught that by the rabbinic calendar year 5790 (this is 5769), the messiah, son of David, will have come and built the Temple on the Temple Mount. By 5790, the messiah will rule the world.

    That is why I comprehend the messianic politics of the Persians; that is half the reason why I write here at all. I’m covering the “Redemption in real time”.

    That’s my beat. I read the prophetic books and check the news and check one against the other and my expectations are generally coming true.

    The authority of the Israeli government, and the validity of the Zionist dream that motivated it both are fading. If you check my articles, you will see that this is a steady theme of mine.

    You’ve seen me advocate strongly, the nuking of Tehran. Do you seriously think that any of the American controlled puppets in power now will do that? I certainly don’t!

    I do believe that in the not too distant future this regime will collapse for one reason or another. The regime that succeeds Netanyahu will be very different; it wil be a government devoted to war, not peace. These wars will be called the wars of the messiah – this is a belief firmly based in Jewish tradition.

    I do trust in G-d. But trusting in G-d doesn’t mean sitting hunched over a holy book, reciting psalms, or studying the Babylonian Talmud while eating bourekas and drinking Coca Cola.

    Trusting in G-d means just that, but doing what I CAN to hasten the day the messiah, son of David comes to redeem us.

    One of those things is to try to get Jews to come home to the relative safety of the Land of Israel, where they can learn to be close to G-d on the Land He gave us.

    Another is to defend the honor of my people against those many who slander us in so many ways.

    Another is to learn the traditions of our ancient nation as they were practiced here in Israel (the Jerusalem Talmud).

    Yet another is to make contact with the other Tribes of our nation, to help make the prophcies of Ezekiel 37 come true.

    Finaly, I have to be a decent human being towards my fellows here; this is the hardest thing for me to do.

    Underlying all this is that while one trusts in G-d to guide our steps and show us the true path, we must make the effort to bring about the Redemption on our own. Part of those efforts include being ready to use nuclear weapons.

  • zingzing

    so you can murder (mass murder, no less) and stay a good jew? news to me. better read that torah again, because i think you missed a part.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    So what will you do if the Messiah does NOT rule the world 21 years from now?

    Please note that I’m not pooh-poohing your belief…but history is rife with religions that were absolutely sure they knew what was going to happen when.

    As for myself, I am a Christian – but we do not adhere to most of the beliefs of what you know to be ‘mainstream’ Christianity. Like you, we believe that only God is God, and that Jesus is not, never has been and never will be God. However, we do belief He is the Savior.

    One thing that surprised me about the Church of which I’m a member (Iglesia ni Cristo, or ‘Church of Christ) is that we lay NO claim as to exactly when or how a particularly prophecy will be fulfilled. We only know what has occurred. To pretend that we knew when Judgment Day was going to happen would be to claim that we knew the mind of God – for even Jesus said He didn’t know when that would be!

    I hope you and I will be able to keep in touch over the next two decades – and we shall see if your belief is true.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Obnoxious,

    Here is an article which may help to explain at least some of the conflicts raised in your article. It deals with the support by Alan Dershowitz of President Obama’s policies toward Israel.

    Acknowledging the anxiety among some American Jews about Obama’s attitude to Israel, Dershowitz concludes uneasily that there isn’t really a problem here because all Obama is doing is putting pressure on Israel over the settlements, which most American Jews don’t support anyway. But this is totally to miss the point. The pressure over the settlements per se is not the reason for the intense concern.

    It is instead, first and foremost, the fact that Obama is treating Israel as if it is the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Obama thus inverts aggressor and victim, denying Israel’s six-decade long victimisation and airbrushing out Arab aggression.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    The Jews are not the only victims. Also victimized were those displaced by the creation of the Jewish state.

    Don’t get me wrong – I am glad there’s one place on earth where Jews aren’t in danger from their countrymen just because they’re Jewish, but I think it naive to think there’s not innocent blood on their hands, too. Not as much as on the hands of the Arabs, but there is innocent blood nonetheless.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    So what will you do if the Messiah does NOT rule the world 21 years from now?

    So he will not rule the world in 21 years, and we will continue to wait, as we have done for over 2,000 years. The rabbis are only people, not prophets.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    You posted: “We’re taught that by the rabbinic calendar year 5790 (this is 5769), the messiah, son of David, will have come and built the Temple on the Temple Mount. By 5790, the messiah will rule the world.”

    The key words are, “We’re TAUGHT”.

    Which means if things don’t happen when you’re taught they should, then those who taught you are wrong.

    Now I figure you would probably say such would be proof that God does things in God’s time and not ours…which is what we believe in the Church of which I’m a member.

    However, one must wonder about the reaction of those who taught you. How will they react if they find that what they have taught so many turns out to be wrong?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    What you don’t realize about us and our teachers, is that there is always a “way out” a “plan b”, an escqpe clause of some sort or another.

    In Judaism, there is no such thing as an ironclad prediction. There is only evidence of events through codes in the text (see the Book of Esther and the prosecution of Nuremburg criminals), evidence of prophecy coming true because the prophecy comes true (Jerusalem expanding to the north and south, as predicted in prophecy), and events that seem miraculous – no matter how distorted they are by the mass media (the victory in 6 days in 1967, the fact that the scuds launched against us in 1991 killed one person in all – while one single scud launched against the Americans killed several hundred).

    In the Book of Isaiah, there are lines that talk about reading prophecy backwards. When you apply this to the prophecies of Bila’am concerning what he sees, “but not soon”, you realize that “big ships from Kittim” have already arrived to afflict Assyria and the other bank (Persia) (the American 7th Fleet and additional battle groups), and have been there for quite a while. In G-d’s good time, a “shoot from Jacob” will emerge victorious.

    How one inerprets Edom in this prophecy can get interesting. Jewish sages always viewed Edom to be Rome, and its spoor. One 1,500 year old prophecy views Rome as the United States. How one fits Obama into all this (the name Obama appears encoded in the Bible right where Gog is referred to in the Book of Ezekiel) can also get interesting.

    If you wish to keep in touch off line, without the inconvenience of coming here to talk, go to my blogsite and look up my address under the profile section. We don’t necessarily agree, but it’s always a pleasure to discuss gthings with you.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/elvira-black Elvira Black

    Oy vey, boys…can’t we all just, er, get along?

    Actually I wouldn’t have it any other way…on this site, rather than the world at large.

    Here’s my 2 cents:
    Bush reduced our standing domestically and internationally and anyone who denies it is blind. Some Repubs are very sore losers, as Obama has been doing one heck of a job, and accomplishing more in the short time he’s been office than others have done in 4 or 8 years to work toward international peace.

    It’s no longer viable to just look at the interests of one or two countries, or even five or ten. We are all interconnected, both virtually and literally…the ripple in the pond indeed; the tweet heard round the world. Obama recognizes this.

    There are others much more in a position to know than I who say we are, for all intents and purposes, already embroiled in WWIII…and we should all strive, in our own small or large way, to be part of the global solution.

    Here in NYC, there are constant cyberattacks daily…thousands upon thousands of them. We could be completely destroyed by the Chinese both financially and cybernetically (?is that a word?). As has always been, our technology has surpassed our ability to handle it.

    Now…as far as Obama goes…

    I as a Jew felt a bit uneasy about his speech in Cairo, but for the most part was very pleased. He stressed that we are staunch allies with Israel; that the holocaust did in fact exist; that persecution and hatred of the Jews is wrong.

    I also believe that perhaps, just perhaps, the protests that occurred after the bogus Iranian electin may have been influenced by the President’s actions and words in Cairo and elsewhere.

    This is an online President…it’s how he won his campaign and he understands the new media’s power for both good and evil. The Arab world uses this as a propaganda tool, and the Great Lie can be spread thruout cyberspace like a computer virus and, in fact, become a “viral” pseudofact.

    The Bush presidency was a disgrace. Obama is taking a stand but he has to be more evenhanded and diplomatic. Nothing else makes sense.

    And as Ruvy himself alluded to, it is not the citizenry but the leaders, both here and abroad, who make decisions that cost thousands, or even millions, their lives. Every life is precious. Children are innocent.

    Jews come in all races and nationalities, and if I remember correctly, Jesus was a Jew… I don’t agree with Ruvy’s philosophy about intermarriage.

    As far as Christianity, esp Catholicism: it was only recently that they were not told lies about how “we” killed Christ. Anti semitism and other forms of hatred can be overcome with education.

    But America has problems of its own in that regard, as our educational system is lacking, and parents don’t stress the importance of learning.

    Jews have a heritage of learning, and I believe this is one of the reasons so many of them are “liberal.” If you have dealings with people from all walks of life, you soon discover that they are human beings just like you.

    Obama was not being a wimp, IMO, re: his reaction to events in Iran…as I said, I think this election has heightened our status internationally on an immense level.

    Look, for example, at the agreements we have just signed with Russia.

    Saying he isn’t paying enough attention to the Iranian election is like saying he didn’t pay enough attention to Michael Jackson’s death. He is trying to address a multitude of issues, and I think he is doing an amazing job.

    Young people around the world understand this. When traditional media were banned from reporting from Iran, it was all the youngsters with their i-photos and tweets (lol) that kept up solidarity and showed international support.

    We can also look to the questionable tactics in our own “democratic” election process. How can we preach democracy and free elections until we practice what we preach?

    Someone asked where Clinton was and as a matter of fact, she has been so silent that I kind of forgot she was even there.

    I have tried to read all the comments but I didn’t get to all of them. But there’s a lot of testosterone flowing in this comment section, gentlemen. But I’m loving it all the same.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Elvira,

    Tha Obnoxious American is the one you probably want to argue with here. I was never a liberal of any kind and while I did vote Democratic in local elections in Minnesota, in New York, I was always a Republican. In fact, a fellow Republican from my days in the North Bronx has been making the news in a small way lately.

    I’ve reined in some of the testosterone lately. I made the terrible mistake of letting it run loose on an Arab agitprop piece by another writer here on the Gaza boat stunt by the Islamic Students Movement a week or so ago.

    In the meantime, Elvira, if you have time, check out my piece on Arab clans fighting it out in Jerusalem. I wrote it with the express purpose of proving that nobody reading here really gives a damn about the Arabs in Israel, except when they can stick it to a Jew. Everyone has stayed away, proving my point. The silence there is deafening.

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