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I’ve heard of “white flight” but this is ridiculous

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The process of altering the fabric of a community against the will of its members will often result in a mass exodus of the original membership, with the resulting destruction of that community and a backlash against those who altered it. We’ve seen it before, we’re seeing it now, and we’ll be seeing it again in the future.

From the New York Times (via Drudge), a story about the increased emigration from the Netherlands:

There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation.

Some have decided to move, but not too far:

Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls “a safer, more peaceful place.”

Other have decided to chuck the whole Euro-socialist dream altogether:

Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted.

Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year’s worth of paperwork, the family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children.

“When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot safely cycle home at night,” said Mr. Konings, 49. “My son just had his fifth bicycle stolen.” At school, his children and their friends feel uneasy, he added. “They’re afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids.”

Who do they blame for this? Refreshingly, they realize that there is blame to go around:

Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams, overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets.

Blaming immigrants for many ills has become commonplace. Conservative Moroccans and Turks from rural areas are accused of disdaining the liberal Dutch ways and of making little effort to adapt. Immigrant youths now make up half the prison population. More than 40 percent of immigrants receive some form of government assistance, a source of resentment among native Dutch. Immigrants say, though, that they are widely discriminated against.

Ms. Konings said the Dutch themselves brought on some of the social frictions. The Dutch “thought that we had to adapt to the immigrants and that we had to give them handouts,” she said. “We’ve been too lenient; now it’s difficult to turn the tide.”

This phenomenon has been seen before in the United States (and elsewhere, but to a lesser extent), but only on a local level. “White flight” gave birth to suburbia, when affluent city dwellers fled the cities to escape the influx of rural poor brought in by government programs of welfare and subsidized housing. The demographics tended to break along racial lines — white vs black — so the label “white flight” was coined.

But it happens whenever a community or an organization is forced to include “the other”. As an unintended consequence, the backlash can do more harm to “the others” than if things had been left as they were.

There was that great episode of The Simpsons in which the the Stonecutters, a parody of the Freemasons, were forced to include Homer in their ranks. Lisa, the well-meaning busy-body liberal, used Homer’s membership as an “in” to start to alter the fabric of that community. Previously concerned only with drinking beer and playing ping-pong, they now compelled to support social projects, much to their chagrin. Unable to toss Homer out, the entire membership left the organization to Homer and began a new organization whose founding principle was the exclusion of Homer Simpson, whether he followed the rules or not.

Let’s re-write that previous paragraph:

There was that process in the Netherlands in which the people were forced to have unassimilated Muslims as neighbours. The government, made up of well-meaning busy-body liberals, started to alter the fabric of that country. Previously concerned only with Dutch culture, citizens were now compelled to support increased welfare for unemployed and unemployable immigrants, and put up with the associated violence, much to their chagrin. Unable to toss the Muslims out, large numbers of the original population left the country to the Muslims and began new communities whose founding principle was the exclusion of non-Europeans, assimilated or otherwise.

Let’s re-write that previous paragraph yet once more:

There was that process in the Anglican Church in which the people were forced to recognize gay couples as blessed by God and to have practicing gays as clergy and bishops. The Church leadership, made up of well-meaning busy-body liberals, started to alter the fabric of the Church. Previously concerned only with Christian living in line with Scripture, the faithful were now compelled to support lifestyles that would seem to be explicitly condemned by Scripture, both Old and New Testament, much to their chagrin. Unable to toss the gays out, large numbers of the original Anglican congregation began to leave the Anglican Church and began new Protestant denominations whose founding principle was the exclusion of all homosexuals, whether they agreed to live by Christian principles or not.

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  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Useful parallels, Steve, although I can almost guarantee you’ll get some sniping for making them!

    The Dutch have a history of leaving the country in search of more congenial places to celebrate their chosen beliefs, after all.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    My sources in Europe tell me that unchecked moslem immigration has created similar problems in other countries as well, particularly Germany and France. In those countries people aren’t leaving in droves yet, but they’re inherently more willing to take adversity than the somewhat spoiled Dutch. But crime and unemployment are out of control, taxes are being drained to pay for all the additional welfare support, and people are getting pretty fed-up with it all.

    Dave

  • Eric Olsen

    the problem isn’t immigration per se, it’s assimilation

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    I agree with Eric.

    But the problem is, “assimilation” is viewed by the Left as “cultural imperialism” or even outright “racism”…

    Therefore, it is politically difficult to achieve on a societal level.

    Therefore, those with means simply leave.

  • http://www.outragedmoderates.org Thad

    This is off topic, and I don’t mean to label the Dutch as racists, because this is a complex issue . . . but did you know that in the Netherlands, Santa Claus is a slave trader who sails into port with a crew of elves in blackface? I’m not kidding. His main helper is a black elf named Zwarte Piet (Black Pete).

    Here’s a link on Wikipedia with some info and photos:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelzebock

  • http://www.standfirminfaith.com Greg Griffith

    No one wants to exclude homosexuals just because they’re homosexual, but when they keep insisting it’s their way or the highway, then the highway it may have to be…

    http://www.standfirminfaith.com/mt/archives/000595.html

  • http://www.mondoirlando.com Aaron, Duke De Mondo

    there is much yacking and debating around The Duke’s area at the minute about “ooh, immigrants coming over and we’re having to support them, oooh, not on my watch, no sir, sieg heil, keep britain british etc” What never fails to amaze me is how the immigrants are working in factorys for a fucking pittance, living together in cramped flats, while the ones making these claims are on the dole. But it says in The Sun that they’re all over here just to reach in our windows and steal our carpets for to sell on the gypsie market, and the governments gonna support them, so of course, up in arms is what we are, up in arms.
    If you’re gonna come here you’re gonna follow my religion and such, that’s another one i hear quite often, spouted by people who last saw the inside of a church when they were being christened.

    and there’s also the fact that the only reason there has been any crime increase here since this “tide of uncontrolalble immigration” is because far-right fuckwits have been baiting folks and going on “justified” campaigns like breaking the windows in shops owned by elderly asians, like beating the fuck out of an islamic fella in a car-park. The increase in crime has been an increase in hate-crime.
    We fought the nazi’s so we could remain white and british and christian. seig heil, fuck those nazis.

    sigh.

  • http://www.mondoirlando.com Aaron, Duke De Mondo

    i should note the previous comments applies to the duke’s land of the northern ireland, and stuff in quotations wasn’t intended as being a quote from the post.

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    The problem is that Islam is not compatible with Western Civilization. You just have to look at the “honor killings” taking place in Berlin to see the truth in that.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Western Civilization has done enough killing in the name of religion to make that claim demonstrably false

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Western Civilization would be a good idea

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    FYI, that last was a reference to the reply by Mahatma Gandhi, when asked by a journalist what he thought of Western Civilization.

  • Eric Olsen

    Islam as a religion seems to be perfectly compatible with Western Civ, democracy, etc. – it’s Islam as a political system that is the problem: no culture of separation of church and state, using state power to enforce religious dictates, etc.

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    Western Civilization has done enough killing in the name of religion to make that claim demonstrably false

    Typical liberal inability to deal with the real world.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Based on the number of moslems who are living just fine around where I live and aren’t engaging in honor killings and are interracting with Christian neighbors without declaring a Jihad I’d say that Islam isn’t the problem. The problem is the repressive form it takes in some isolated, theocratic societies and among people who come from that background.

    Dave

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    The problem is the repressive form it takes in some isolated, theocratic societies and among people who come from that background.

    So I guess Germany must be an isolated, theocratic society since several “honor killings” among Muslims have taken place there in recent months.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    So those Muslims were born and raised in Germany? Bet not.

    Dave

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    So those Muslims were born and raised in Germany? Bet not.

    They were probably born in a country where the Islamic concept of “honor killing” is considered noble and just. Of course, thanks to immigration, “honor killings” are going to become a regular part of European life as the continent slips into an Islamic dark age.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    There are plenty of Islamic countries where honor killings would be looked on as barbaric. But the irony is that those are the countries where people aren’t all that eager to leave. The people who move to Europe do it mostly for economic reasons and they tend to come from the more backwards Islamic countries both economically and culturally.

    Dave

  • SFC SKI

    Steve’s whole premise in this article is one of reading the news but not looking at the events behind them.

    To the point of the latest comments, Adam, you are woefully inaccurate in your assessment of the situation as a whole. Making such broad brush statements shows that you are not willing to look at facts instead of headlines and two minute soundbites.

    The point is not whether they are first generation immigreants or not, because many of the ones carrying out the killings, or aiding them, were in fact born in Europe. The problem is when you have a group of people carrying the negative aspects of their home culture to a new land, and refusing to abide by its laws. Even though the killers know they will be taken to prison, their home culture demands they do these thinbgs, and theey arer not willing to throw off the shackles of the old tribal customs. Too many years of PC accomodation have also allowed these practices to continue, instead of nipping them in the bud at first apearance. A Muslim immigrant should have the write to pray 5 times a day or wear a headscarf, but immigrants that threaten murder or injury should have only the option of cjanging their ways or deportation.

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    The people who move to Europe do it mostly for economic reasons and they tend to come from the more backwards Islamic countries both economically and culturally.

    So you agree that Islamic immigrants have been bad for Europe?

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    A Muslim immigrant should have the write to pray 5 times a day or wear a headscarf, but immigrants that threaten murder or injury should have only the option of cjanging their ways or deportation.

    The problem is that Muslims can’t be assimilated into European society. Whether you want to accept it or not, the ever growing migration of Muslims to Europe will see an erosion of European civilization and will see the continent become as primitive and savage as the rest of the Islamic world.

  • Ortho_Stice

    The conclusions implied by that article, and the examples used at the end to bulwark them, are ridiculous. Basically the author is saying prospering society + liberal mores =immigration = harsh societal backlash. The only common thread between his examples? That liberal activism – somehow such a virulent agent that it trumps the ridiculous disparities between a fictional show, a socioeconomic national schism, and a religious schism- breeds exactly what it seeks to erase, namely bigotry and isolationism.

    Nevermind that no one has pointed out that the vast majority of examples given in the following posts involve Europe, a region that has been wrestling with this very problem for decades. The geographic, national, and ethnic breakdown of Europe makes it far more vulnerable to such problems -problems exacerbated by social/nationalist tendencies on both sides (the immigrants in not assimilating and the host demographic in refusing -even in the case of the uber-liberal Dutch- to adapt.) It’s been a problem in France, Germany, the Netherlands, and now Ireland, from the few I can remember. And yes, the problem has arisen in states bordering or near Mexico, but the level of vitriol and panic is nowhere approaching that of the European nations. And yes it is a problem with “white flight”, but in many areas the reverse problem of gentrification is just as prevalent. Is cultural rigidity, especially in the face of immigration, a problem? Certainly. Is it a problem made to seem far worse by cherry-picking certain regions particularly susceptible then making the problem to seem far more universal by making ridiculous comparisons? Judging by the article above I’d say yes. Is it a problem that can be solved by reducing it to a facile, cliched partisan framework? No, but a fine job taking an interesting topic and injecting it with wholly unnecessary petty politics.

  • SFC SKI

    I know that you directed this last to someone else, but let me chime in, becasue I don’t agree at all. You make the mistake of treating all Muslim immigrants as one big group, which they are not. Uzbeks, Turks, Croats, and Moroccans immigrants are almost entirely Muslim, but they are not a homogenous entity.

    Most native Europeans, at least in Germany, France, and the Benelux, sought out immigrants in the post WWII rebuilding of Europe and its economic boom. The immigrants were a necessary and benficial component of the postqar rebuilding.

    It was only in the last 2 decades of the 20th that rising extremist influence among the immigrant communities became cause for notice, and only lately has it become a cause for alarm in Europe, a bit of “too little, too late” in my opinion, but it can stil be addressed and corrected through legal means, left unchecked it would eventually lead to much worse violence in those countries.

    But I digress, more to the point, even Muslims in the countries these immigrants emigrate from wrestle with the problems of growing extremism. Tunisians and Moroccans are much more aware of the dangers of fundamentalist Islam than France or Germany is, which is why they are a bit more vigilant and much more disect in their dealings with extremists in their own countries.
    While Europe should not be as injustly brutal as some of these countires are, but they do need to recognize and deal with the problems they are facing, and take appropriate actions.

  • Ortho_Stice

    “Erosion of European Civilzation”? Who will protect our white women from the horde of ignorant Islamic savages?

    So you’d suggest what? Closing the borders and letting the primitive savages in the Middle East? Somehow I don’t think our Prez would agree. Your words remind me of the sage words of another, ” In my city, we’d keep the traffic in the Dark People, the Coloreds – they’re animals anyway; so let them lose their souls.”

  • SFC SKI

    Good points, I’d just read a series from Deutsche Welle recapping a bit of the history and arguments surrounding immigration in Europe.

    Adam what country do you live in? You sound like a single-source information type of commenter, on what are you basing your assertions?

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    “Erosion of European Civilzation”? Who will protect our white women from the horde of ignorant Islamic savages?

    Actually the Islamic savages seem to be too busy killing their own women to bother with the white ones.

    So you’d suggest what? Closing the borders and letting the primitive savages in the Middle East? Somehow I don’t think our Prez would agree.

    What does President Bush have to do with decisions made by European countries to protect themselves from the actions of violent Muslims?

    Your words remind me of the sage words of another, ” In my city, we’d keep the traffic in the Dark People, the Coloreds – they’re animals anyway; so let them lose their souls.”

    Is the above supposed to mean something?

  • http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/ Adam Lawson

    Adam what country do you live in? You sound like a single-source information type of commenter, on what are you basing your assertions?

    I live in the United States and get my news from TV, newspapers and the Internet. Are you now going to tell me that there is no problem with Islamic violence in Europe?

  • SFC SKI

    I am saying that you are saying that there is a problem with Islamic violence in Euroe, and ALL Muslims are partaking in it.

  • Ortho_Stice

    I bring up Bush because (whatever one thinks of the means) he represents one possible solution, and the Kansas City Don because he represents another.

    Bush believes in a program of proactivity, of taking the problem at the source. Hence, post-9/11 he has pursued a policy that attempts to solve problems in other countries rather than attempt to block them at home. Like I said, you can debate the means and results but it is one type of solution.

    Another solution is the Don’s -they’re savages, they’re not in my house, let them tear each other to shreds ’cause it’s not my problem (and if I can indirectly profit from it, all the better).

    Plus, it was a stab at humorous stab at painting you as a bigot.

    You seem to advocate a Don-style policy of isolationism against a group deemed inferior because of their choice of religion. That is impossible for Europe for reasons of history, location, and geopolitics and impossible for the U.S. for reasons of geopolitics and, especially, energy. Your entire argument is based around the shite premise that Muslims (no other distinction made) are barbaric and incorrigible and therefore can only be dealt with by rejecting them. Then you’ve knee-jerked your way against every response to that narrow, base opinion.

    Like I said before, it’s a touchy problem that requires honest discussion and an open mind towards correction. All you’ve supplied is a reductive, generalized and corrupt opinion. Thanks for playing, good luck with the savages.

    Ski-good insight, any way to legislate around the problem, and -as far as you’ve seen- has it simmered down a bit. It seems France has quieted since the LePen spike a few years ago, but the Dutch have been in the thick of it ever since Van Gogh and friend living in Berlin tells me the Nationalists are on the rise again, esp. in the east.

  • SFC SKI

    Yes, it is exactly that which I wanted to lead to, if the government of a country will not face a large problem in a visible way, fringe groups will grow up to address it in an imperfect way, and with the tacit approval, or at least minor and and unstrenuous disapproval of the majority “well, I don’t agree with the Nazis, but at least they are willing to stand up to the …” argument. Eastern Germany has long had problems with the Nazis, it seeems like they sprung up like weeds right after reunification. The German government stepped on them for awhile, and they lost support, but now, in times of change, disaffection, econimic downturn, and uncertainty, they rear their heads again. It is always easier to blame “the other” for your country’s problems than look for the real problem.
    Back to the point, unless the democratic government is going to implement plans of actions, with the protections of checks and balances inherent in their systems, imperfect vigilantism will rise up to address the problem.

  • Ortho_Stice

    Germany seems like a good example for the difficulties of finding a way out, or at least towards the light, from such problems.

    As far as I know, this rise in Skinheads is concurrent with increased tension with immigrants (esp. the Turks) and a stagnant economy. The economy is stagnant in no small part because of the ridiculously generous Dole package and ridiculously binding employment laws. The government and many Germans know that reform is needed, but changing those employment and welfare laws immediately has a negative effect on the poorer native Germans that comprise most of the Skinheads, who react by lashing out more at the Gov’t and immigrants. There is a solution, and perhaps it involves clamping down on the skinheads and biting the bullet with reform, but there’s certainly no easy out.

    Part of me also believes that some of this problem is inherent in human nature. By this I mean that no one wants to be perceived as the group on the bottom rung. Often those just above the bottom, say poor native Germans, will do their damnest to stand upon the group directly below, i.e. the immigrants. The same happened in the American South during the reconstruction, when the newly freed slaves and poor white tenant farmers were largely in the same boat, but the tenant farmers turned against (and were turned against by the larger landholders) the blacks rather than join forces for more say in land rights. I know, not a perfect analogy, but reminiscent. I don’t know if there is a similar divide-and-conquer theme underway in Germany and Europe now, or if that problem is more distinctly drawn on national/ethnic lines.

  • http://halfbakered.blogspot.com mike hollihan

    Not to derail things, but the “white flight” comments in the original post are somewhat wrong.

    The first Levittown, the original suburb, was built in 1947 on Long Island. The most well known was his second, Levittown, PA. They were the result of postwar prosperity, mostly a booming steel industry in PA; booming population from returning soldiers and the newly middle class; and over-crowded cities.

    At that time, more than half of America still lived on farms and in small towns. The big cities of the day were far more crowded than we understand the term today. Levittowns offered a cheap alternative to big cities’ crowded spaces.

    Enter Eisenhower’s interstate road building program and you get mobility. Folks today, again, forget just how hard it was to get around even local counties in the pre-interstate days.

    Push all that together and you get urban migration. This was all during a time of deep racial suppression, Jim Crow, when blacks were held down and cordoned off very effectively. Whites thoroughly controlled the game then.

    What we call “white flight” was a result of court decisions to enforce school bussing on cities to implement school desegregation. That’s when whites began to flee in large numbers beyond the reach of cities.

    The extant suburbs and interstate systems made it easy, but didn’t cause it. Crowded cities, a booming economy, a growing middle class and quick access to large tracts of open land caused suburbia. “White flight” came later.

  • http://www.iamrighturpie.blogspot.com/ jadester

    well said, SFC. What amuses me is all this focusing on the sudden masses of Muslim immigrants, at the expense of taking notice of what’s going on with our own culture. There appears to be a slowly-but-steadily-growing state of general disaffection amongst the population – at least here in england – that is why, i think, we have such a high level of voter apathy. I don’t really know why this is happening, but it’s the feeling i get from TV, newspapers, the stuff i see around town, the things i hear at work and in the pub and on the bus…to try to claim a few muslims (or moslems if you prefer) coming to live here is going to cause so many problems is, well, weak. You’re worried about things like honour killings and other acts of violence supposedly promoted by their culture? what about our yob and gang culture, apparently gaining an increasing foothold amongst our kids (11+)? what about the apparently increasing number of parents here who seem to think their kids aren’t their responsibility?
    of course, when a scapegoat is needed, the finger is almost always pointed at the weakest believable target…

  • Ortho_Stice

    Jadester,
    I largely agree with you, but don’t take the cultural relativism too far. Targeting the small, easily vilified minority is dead wrong, but that doesn’t put the minority automatically in the right. A bunch of chumps getting drunk and looking for a fight isn’t great, but it’s a sight better than honor killings or forced female circumcision. These could be straw men, but I think one of the larger points in this thread is that no side can escape some culpability. And I don’t care what level of cultural sensitivity you espouse, if you think shunning or stoning a woman because she was raped is right, you’re backwards, plain and simple. Again, could be straw men, but relativism has its limits.

  • Albanesse

    Honor killings… damn, sounds very Mafia to me. I think watched too much Godfather 1 & 2 to me.

  • SFC SKI

    Exactly, relativism is somewhat racist in the cases above. The idea that honor killing is somehow right, or condoned, because it is part of the culture, is to say that MUslims in this case, are somehow wired differently and approve of these things, and will choose them as a community when other ways to address the problem exist.

    Thugs beating up immigrants is no less wrong than honor killings, either, it is only that one is more vigorously and vocally denounced, and given much more scrutiny by society as a whole than the other is.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>The people who move to Europe do it mostly for economic reasons and they tend to come from the more backwards Islamic countries both economically and culturally.

    So you agree that Islamic immigrants have been bad for Europe?<<

    Yes, and I’ll go one controversial step farther. Overwhelmingly the desirable islamic immigrants come to the US. Those who have money and education can afford to travel farther therefore they got to the country which is most accepting of immigrants and offers the best opportunities for advancement and least likelihood of discrimination, the United States. The ones who end up going to Europe are those who have less money and less education and likely come from more backwards countries. The Moslems who end up in Europe are much more like the Mexican immigrants to the US as far as the role they end up filling in society. They come in at the lowest level and become a drain on resources rather than an immediate asset to the society.

    Dave

  • SFC SKI

    Well, I don’t agree Dave, but I will grant you that European immigration policies did “ghettoize” many immigrants and allow them/cause them, to attempt to carve out little “Dar Islams” where they lived, most recently a town in Belgium, IIRC, tried to throw out federal law and institute Sharia law.

    Again, don’t throw all the Muslims into one basket, to do so will not give you a greater appreciation of the matters at hand, and will cause you to overlook the most obvious tool to defeat extremist Muslims, the Muslims from other parts of the world who are no less devout adn knoiwledgeable, but are less xenophobic and extreme.

    One of the key features of any fundamentalist movement is increasing resistance to change, and an inability to adapt to or accept change.

    Many Muslims that I have known in the ME are aware that with increasing exposure to the West and its culture come rewards, such as free press and democracy, but with that freedom comes societal ills that our “religious right” would also rail against. Most Muslims recognize these “dangers” as pitfalls on the path to leading a devout life, and seek ways to deal with them. Only the most extreme will see killing a liquor store owner and burning his wares, or whipping and jailing his customers as the way to decrease alcohol use in his community.

  • Ortho_Stice

    Dave,
    I also don’t know if I buy the ol “drain on the resources” line. I don’t think people in this country realize how much relies upon immigrant labor. The service industries and the fruit industries alone would go into a tailspin without the help of the cheap labor provided by immigrants. It’s not a good system, but it’s how things work. Just because you’re not a neurosurgeon (or a nurse, for that matter, depending on gaping career vacancies), doesn’t mean you’re not an asset to the society a.k.a the economy.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “I don’t think people in this country realize how much relies upon immigrant labor.”

    If “immigrant labor” disappeared tomorrow, life would go on.

    Companies would simply have to hire American workers to do the same job, at higher wages. This would slightly increase the market costs of their products.

    This all would be slightly inflationary, but would also decrease the unemployment rate among Americans.

    In other words, it ain’t a perfect policy, but it’s not all bad either.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>I also don’t know if I buy the ol “drain on the resources” line. I don’t think people in this country realize how much relies upon immigrant labor. The service industries and the fruit industries alone would go into a tailspin without the help of the cheap labor provided by immigrants. It’s not a good system, but it’s how things work. Just because you’re not a neurosurgeon (or a nurse, for that matter, depending on gaping career vacancies), doesn’t mean you’re not an asset to the society a.k.a the economy.<<

    That’s THIS country, not Europe.

    We may have 5.2% unemployment in the US, but the truth is that we have a labor shortage in key sectors of the economy. We need cheap immigrant labor and there are plenty of jobs for them.

    In Europe the situation is radically different. They may report unemployment of 10-15% in Germany and France, but the REAL unemployment in those countries counting people who are basically permanently unemployed is more like 25-40%. They don’t have the abundance of low level jobs yearning for immigrants – there are some jobs natives are just unwilling to do, but far more immigrants in Europe end up being unemployed and becoming a drain on the public welfare system.

    Dave

  • SFC SKI

    Optimistic view, RJ, I can’t see a lot of people signing up for stoop labor at minimum wage anytime soon.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    And a vast underestimation of that “slight” increase.

    No one wants to close the borders do they?

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    India has demonstrated that it is very possible to have strong assimiliation of multiple cultures and religions into a vibtrant society, including Muslims. Two Presidents have been Muslim, they are pre-eminent in multiple fields, including sports, acting, Information Technology (the CEO of one of India’s largest IT companies is Muslim), etc. Shah Rukh Khan, mentioned on another thread, in case it is not evident from his name, is Muslim.

  • http://www.aimrighturpie.blogspot.com/ jadester

    aha, i didn’t mean i think “honour” killings committed by muslims are right. I was trying to make the point that with or without these immigrants, our locally-developing culture has plenty of problems of it own, and looking to use e.g. an influx of Muslim immigrants as a scapegoat for such things as rising levels of violent crime, and finding and ganging up on a scapegoat group of people is no way to go about trying to solve the problems we are facing. At best, it will create yet more rifts and animosity between the opposing groups of people, it will result in further opinionated vitriol based more in cloud cuckoo-land than reality, and will lead to higher tension between the groups.
    Of course i don’t think all muslims are saints. But judging all muslims on the actions of a small minority of them is just as bad as if they were to judge all christians, say, on the actions of that minority who have turned out to be child molesters. I’m pretty sure the majority of chrsitians aren’t child molesters, and would be pretty pissed off if you suggested they were purely because of those few bad apples.

    As an aside, personally i think we should TRY to give children at secondary level a wider teaching on the large religions. I know it would be difficult to come up with a good curriculum that wasn’t too time-consuming but was more informative than the current one, but i think it is important. Don’t shove it down their throats, don’t say “you must believe this or that”, and don’t teach much from the extremist camps, but teach them MORE. I know almost nothing of the Jewish faith, Buddhist faith, Muslim faith, etc., having been almost entirely taught about the christian faith. Almost everything i know of other faiths has been picked up from tv etc.
    I don’t think that’s right, not in this day and age. If you’re gonna teach religion, teach all the big religions.

  • sydney

    This is a great post because it is revealing so many (unintentionally) racist views. Or perhaps not ‘racist’, but ignorant.

    “But the problem is, “assimilation” is viewed by the Left as “cultural imperialism” or even outright “racism”…”

    — I’m a lefty and I think assimilation is important. As such immigration should be allowed, only, at a controlled rate so as not to spur racist backlash in the host nation. You can be for assimilations while also being for tolerance of differing cultures. It’s a two-way street. But I do think it can be disastrous to allow massive floods of immigration all at once (as New Zealand is apparently doing).

    The problem has nothing to do with the emigrating culture’s beliefs or religion or anything like that. Any culture is easily assimilated into the host culture.

    The problem, as the duke has said, is that immigrants tend to start at the bottom of the social ladder. They get low paying jobs, the children have a hard time assimilating into school and so social problems follow. The situation perpetuates itself. That is why good social welfare structures are so important. (I was amazed to hear the view that social programs are simply being abused by immigrants.. this is ass backwards).

    Canada has done an excellent job with immigration, allowing many immigrants while pacing it as such that the country can adapt and change in harmoniously. There is relatively little racial tension in Canada (though there is definitely some in high-immigration areas).

    Canadians view themselves (often mistakenly) as a moral superpower. This is ingrained in the kids mind throughout the school years — to be caring and respectful of other cultures. As such, kids are amazingly sensitive and considerate of immigrants.

    I know this because I spent 4 years teaching in two different high schools (both with large Arab and shri lanken populations).

    There were cliques to be sure, but the Caucasian students were amazingly sensitive and nice in their dealings with these students. It was a lasting impression of Canadian youths that I’ll never forget.

    I will acknowledge that it may be different elsewhere in Canada.

    I teach in the US now, however, there is very few immigrants at my school so its hard to gauge the attitudes. I will say though, unfortunately, I do detect a lot of ignorant views amongst the students.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Good points, Sydney – you do have the responsibility as a teacher to change/inform the minds of the students you refer to as ‘ignorant’. I recognize they have competing influences external to the classroom, but you can doubtless make some difference

  • SFC SKI

    I think you missed the point slightly, jadester, it is not that crime in general is less a problem than honor killings, it is that the honor killings are being carried out by a specific group of people, and that even the moatly male children of these immigrants, who usually are the vanguard of assimilation, are taking part in it. Honor killings are often ignored by law in the home countries of these immigrants, and the immigrants are ignoring the laws against it in their adopted countries, that is where the problem is, because now it is revealed that the cultural condoning, nay demanding, that honor killings be done overrides the legal prohibitions agsinst killing.

  • sydney

    Yes Aaman is right in saying that muslims have no problems assimilating. Certainly this is the case 99% of the time.

    I’ve never heard of these honour killings, but assuming they are being done in some places, they certainly are not more common than murders amoungst christian populations.

    Many people seem to have a really jaded view of Islam. Most muslims are passivist and don’t beleive in violence at all. The problem is that the minorty extremists are capturing all the headlines.

  • SFC SKI

    “they certainly are not more common than murders amoungst christian populations”

    Well, Sydney, when Christian fathers and brothers shoot their daughters in the street, or tie their hands behind their backs then drown them in bathtubs, or strangle them, all for the daughters “sin” of wearing western clthing or make up, talking to a male not of her family, or acting like a “western woman”, I’ll grant you your argument.
    Many Muslims immigrants are not viloent towards their children, but if you have read anything at all on this subject, you would know that it is a problem amongst Muslim communities in Europe, specifically Germany and Holland. Off hand, I only know of one honor killing in the US by a Muslim father against his daughter. So it does happen, and the specifics show how it differs from murders withtin a Christian community, which is a misnomer in any case.

  • sydney

    Very well then..

    I just saw this honor killing debate or discussion as a hypocritical exercise. Focusing on Muslim issues while ignoring our own. I thought that was jadesters point and I wanted to vouch my support.

    If Muslims were talking of Americans and saying “Americans watch programs that promote violence and sex and they wonder why their are rapes and violent murders”.

    We would say in return, “that’s a huge misrepresentation of American society, and it fails to recognize the fact that the majority of Americans are well intentioned, peaceful souls.”

    My point being… when we sit here talking of Muslim problems we’re just as guilty of misrepresenting them and perpetuating a grotesque view of their culture. I’ve only ever had one Muslim friend, but this was her perspective totally. She constantly felt frustrated by the ignorant views of her culture.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Greg wrote: “No one wants to exclude homosexuals just because they’re homosexual, but when they keep insisting it’s their way or the highway, then the highway it may have to be…

    http://www.standfirminfaith.com/mt/archives/000595.html

    Plenty of people exclude homosexuals just for being homosexuals. It’s not necessarily their way or the highway either. The same can be said for the opponents of gay rights but it would not be a fair statement. I’ve many thoughts on the plight of homosexuals but I’ll save that for another day.

    Insofar as the integration of Muslims into liberal communities is concerned, I agree it is about assimilation. The problem of racial, ethnic or religious divides has plagued mankind since time began. You would think that we have evolved to a point where we can live in a society governed by secular law without compromising religious beliefs.

    I hate to bring this up but let’s face facts. The West has done a good job in demoralizing the Muslim World since the Crusades. When a people are oppressed they turn to radical idealogies for some kind of relief. It’s happened repeatedly in human history. Hatred and intolerance are perpetuated by hanging on to these differences instead of resolving them.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Optimistic view, RJ, I can’t see a lot of people signing up for stoop labor at minimum wage anytime soon.”

    That’s the thing. The free market would come into play.

    If you can’t hire anyone at 6 bucks an hour to do a menial, backbreaking job, try 9 bucks an hour. THEN you’ll get some applicants!

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    This doesn’t say much good about the moraily of that free market. We’ll pay you poverty wages until we can’t get away with it. It’s juz bizness.

  • Eric Olsen

    it’s hard not to gloat when you rule and they drool

  • sydney

    RJ’s morality comes form his religion. His religion is America.

    This doesnt bode well for RJ or the people of America.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    There are worse things to worship than America, Sydney. For example government or The Leader.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    or materialism, money or the ability to profit off the hard labor of others.

  • sydney

    I suppose.. there are worse things… but I could think of better things.

    Dave you shouldn’t support RJ.. that little weasel is so far right he makes you look like an attractive alternative.

    I mean, with you I scratch my head, but at least I keep trying to understand.

    With RJ,.. well the thought of him living beside me scares me to the bone. Give’s me second thoughts about having children. :)

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Cheer up, sydney. Before you know it genetic engineering ala Gattaca and Soylent Green may become the way of the world.

  • http://www.guyleven-torres.co.uk guy leven-torres.

    The sooner peopl realise that the European elite is deliberately ethnically cleansing its own white populations the better for everybody. This elite is Marxist (communinist for the dopes that don’t understand). I am over 50 and as ‘wrinkly’ I remember Europe and the Lefty cranks even in the Fifties! They hate Western society, want to destroy it and democracy and control not just what you say and do, but what you think. get this into your heads ladies and gentlemen!!!!

    Today I still see the same ‘Undead’ often in their 60s and 70s, even the same names now, but still preaching and hoping for the Revolution as they id in their childih 1960s. This time though they are succeeding and nobody seems to care a damn! Wake up before it is too late! These 60s undead are bloody awful and quite capable of their own ‘Stettins’ (Where the Russians exterminated the Polish Intelligentsia 1939).

    From migration of Moslems to environmental Marxism the same tired worn out ‘Undead’ push their dreams of Marxist world state. The name of the theology may have changed but the message has not! ‘We want your brains because we know better than you do!’ That is the Left and that is the ideology that will drive the not very far off EUSSR where you cannot think or say anything the elite dislikes and thought police in ever town and street corner…

    The Moslems are being used like Hitler’s SA or Sturm Abteilung to generate an atmosphere of fear and demands for more laws and police power! It has all been done before.

    And before anybody jumps down my throat as wrinkly racist… I am married to a black woman myself and she agrees with me! It is the likes of her that get the backlash from pissed off Europeans! Think about that!

  • DukeLaCrosse20

    White flight exists anywhere there are liberal social programs which encourage the non-whites to come and take advantage of the largesse of whites. Or perhaps there are those who want to come and do work in the nicer areas the whites built. In either case, liberal social and immigration policies invariable result in the host fleeing the eventually-unwelcome guest.

    The worst thing that can happen to a socialist leader, who thrives on the exploitation of these immigrants for their vote, is for the whites to be able to escape to a place where they don’t have to support the non-whites. Localized social programs are doomed to fail because the white tax payers will flee. This is why the Federal Government in the USA has become so pervasive; if you can escape the socialists you will. Hence, making all social programs national makes it impossible to escape them.

    Until recently, the USA was the last country on earth where socialism wasn’t the dominant mode. Now its completely dominant and we’re almost as bad as Europe in that regard. I might argue we’re worse since our politicians are dishonest about their intentions and they claim to NOT be socialist. Clearly, if they were honest, they would have a much more difficult time winning. But make no mistake, the USA is run by hard-core Marxists throughout the government today.