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It’s Time for the Tea Party to Grow Up

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Over the weekend I’ve been thinking about Tea Party Nation’s convention in Nashville and some of the criticism which has been levelled at it. A lot of that criticism focuses on the fact that the organizers are charging a lot, paying Sarah Palin a lot, and making a profit on the event. This made me wonder when people on the right who supposedly believe in free enterprise and individual liberty decided that making money was a bad thing.

It’s not just the convention. Throughout the discontented masses of newly energized activists there’s a suspicion of any group which has links to corporate interests or is supported by large donations from foundations or companies. FreedomWorks, Americans for Prosperity, and the Tea Party Express have all been the targets of criticism because they are seen as sellouts or shills for special interests. Yet what’s so wrong about bringing money or influence to a cause? If a group or a company or a rich individual happens to share your interests, why is it wrong to benefit from his largess? If a wealthy foundation or even a health insurance company will give you the platform to reach a wider audience with your message, why is that bad? They may be using you, but you’re also using them, and if your interests coincide even temporarily then you both benefit and if you’re sincere your efforts will do more good than they would if you were just protesting on a street corner without the money to get on TV or gather larger crowds.

It seems to me that the new activism of the Tea Party has to some degree become infected with the anti-capitalism of the protest culture of the left, and I’m pretty sure that’s not a positive influence. If we accept that the enemy of the movement is the out-of-control state and its corporate allies, that does not mean that every politician and every business is an enemy. The policies which the Tea Parties object to are as harmful to many businesses as they are to individuals and there are plenty of politicians who remember that votes got them elected, not just money. Not all businesses are part of the cabal which wields power and there are always ambitious politicians looking for a new power base. Populism and opposition to the status quo can be a powerful political force which can make your career.

Causes need money, and sooner or later every movement is going to need allies with deep pocketbooks. The trick is picking allies whose interests are close to your own, and it shouldn’t be difficult, because they will come knocking at your door, realizing that your group is one they can work with.

In the same way, attracting some opportunistic politicians who want to promote their careers while promoting your issues is not a bad thing, so long as you remain true to your beliefs and hold the politicians accountable. The media has declared that Sarah Palin has hijacked the Tea Party movement, but it’s just as true that the Tea Party movement has hijacked her and that she’s tailoring her message to appeal to their interests.

In these relationships both sides benefit.

So today, in the aftermath of the Tea Party Nation Convention, I received an email from the Tea Party Patriots, who are one of the more legitimate, grassrootsy Tea Party groups. They’re not well funded and are mainly just a bunch of activists all over the country who are organizing small protests in combination with other groups. They’re all chuffed because the Tea Party Nation folks had their convention first and got so much media attention and they’re afraid it will cut into their popularity and take away from their their convention which is coming up on April 15th.

In their email they write about Tea Party groups selling out to politically connected and well-financed interests:

The Tea Party Movement started because of these tactics and we will not be used like this. We are smarter than that and we will call out any one and any organization who tries to undermine the grassroots movement known as the Tea Party Movement.

The truth is that if they want the press coverage they can get it most easily by forming alliances with groups that have money and can draw prominent speakers and get media attention. That doesn’t necessarily mean selling out. Those groups need the grassroots folks on the ground too much to exploit them in any way which would alienate them. And ultimately you are responsible for your own integrity. If you don’t like what your allies are doing, call them on it and sever ties. Just make sure that your own behavior and activities are above reproach.

In a related phenomenon, Ron Paul supporters make a big deal of how they had the Tea Party idea first. But you can’t really own an idea or own a movement, even if you got there first. And you can’t take someone’s movement away or hijack it because you decide to join it and brought a lot of friends or a lot of money with you. If the movement is authentic and if it is driven by real issues then it is going to continue and gain strength.

Obviously the Tea Party movement is diverse and it’s made up of lots of groups with different strategies and interests and resources. But for it to work and grow people need to be willing to form alliances, and that means they can’t afford to let the anti-corporate, anti-establishment attitude run away with them. It’s self-indulgent and self-defeating. Righteousness and ideological purity may make you feel great as you sit in the local coffee house plotting revolution with your little cell of like-minded individuals, but it gets in the way of actually accomplishing anything. It’s an egotistical delusion. To succeed you need to put ego aside and be prepared to not be the center of attention and devote your efforts to making the cause itself what matters, not yourself or your particular group.

That’s called maturity and the Tea Party movement is very young. If it’s going to mature it’s going to change and people are going to have to make some compromises along the way. That includes putting aside ego and giving up some control and accepting the help of older groups and foundations and even allying with icky things like politicians and corporations, because that’s how you build influence. Just stick to your principles and lead by example and make the right deals with the right people. You might end up changing the world.

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About Dave Nalle

  • pablo

    You are if nothing else funny Dave. I love how you support the subversion of a political movement. I had my doubts before about you being a shill, those doubts have been erased pal.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Contradiction of sorts, Dave. In the piece prior you complained that the Nashville convention was infected with big corporate interest. Now (page 3) you seem to argue against anti-corporate stance.

    I realize you don’t mean quite the same thing here, but you should try to make your meaning clearer.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Pablo – shed some light, please.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo has only darkness to share, Roger.

    As for the differences between this and the prior article, I’ve had time to think about the larger implications of the reaction to the convention since I wrote the first article.

    Dave

  • pablo

    No Dave what I do is shine light into the dark recesses so that shills like you have to scurry along.

    Roger,

    I will be happy to expound on my opinion of Nalle. First and foremost is his upbringing, which is much part and parcel to him as it is to anyone. We are products as it were of the environment from whence we came from.

    As Davey makes no skull and bones about his families background that is a good place to start. The CIA. What happened in 1947 was the establishment of a secret government run for all intents and purposes by Wall Street. The founders of this anti democratic, and anti human rights organization were people such as Allen Dulles and William Donovan a former lawyer for Wall Street.

    Dulles incidentally was also head of Operation Mockingbird, A CIA domestic (unlawful) operation that involved subverting and co-opting the fourth estate the Press. Dulles was also intimately involved in Operation Paperclip, a CIA project to import literally thousands of Nazi’s into the US. (Oh and Davey? This is called shedding light into the darkness pal).

    Dave is the type of person that ACTS as if he believes in liberty and individual freedom, to get you into his con-fidence. He will then invariably subvert, undermine, and denigrate any real attempts by others to bring light into the darkness of the National Security State, which is a nice phrase for big brother, or totalitarianism.

    Recently it has come to light that there is a guy in the Obama administration by the name of Cass Sunstein who is now head of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. Mr. Sunstein wrote a white paper back in 2008 called “Conspiracy Theories”, in which he called for infiltrating social networks, and chat rooms to subvert and lie if necessary to expound on official government doctrines. Sunstein also called for restrictions on the first amendment, suggesting that questioning global warming, 9/11 and other events in the news be made illegal.

    I mention Sunstein because not only does he work for Obama, but this story is currently in the news, and of particular import to freedom to express oneself. I have yet to hear Nalle make even an oink concerning this obmanation, Sunstein. Seeing as how Dave is a republican, and a so called libertarian, why hasnt he made a fuss? Instead Dave would rather call another bringer of light Alex Jones a nazi.

    Incidentally Dave, I cannot help but notice the similarity between your online photo of Jones and the mugshot that you use of yourself! I do find irony in the strangest of places. Smirk.

    Another person of note that Nalle frequently disparages is Ron Paul. He apparently is in love however with shill Sarah Palin!

    I could go on and on Roger about Nalle, and his obvious shilling, without even ever bringing up the subject of 9/11!

    His job is to confuse those that are waking up the national security state, and the New World Order. His chairmanship of the Republican Liberty Caucus (an oxymoron if I have ever heard one) is indicative of what I am talking about. Christine Todd Whitman, or John Danforth did not come out against the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, or any other draconian big brother legislation to come out of Washington the last 5 or 6 years. They are about as libertarian as Newt Gingrich, who recently called for free speech restrictions.

    Sunstein’s “Conspiracy Theories” white paper is hyperlinked below.

    Conspiracy Theories

    Sunstein’s paper shows the the true nature of the Obama’s administration’s road towards totalitarianism under the guise of liberalism. You would THINK that Nalle would be all over this story. Nope. A shill is a shill is a shill.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Doesn’t seem so outlandish that the people who were hornswoggled by those pretending to be fiscal conservatives until they got their hands on money and power don’t want to see this new grassroots movement co-opted in the same manner by those looking to make a buck off them under the guise of supporting their cause.

  • Ruvy

    I dunno. There is altogether too much tea around here for my tastes. I’m going to enjoy my cup of coffee.

    Just curious, Paul. Who do you think Sarah Palin is shilling for – other than Sarah Palin?

  • Arch Conservative

    Palin may be a well intentioned idiot but she’s still an idiot.

    Her “I’m just an average everyday American like you” appeal has always amazed me. It’s as if people aren’t aware of the fact that there are people out there just like them that aren’t idiots.

  • Ruvy

    I don’t know about that assessment of yours, Bing. I listened to Palin’s speech, and thought it was pretty good – until I realized she had been paid $100,000 for that speech. She could have done a better job for that kind of money.

    But she did a reasonably good job as governor, and does not strike me as an idiot at all. Whatever ignorance she displayed in the 2008 campaign has been cured (trust me on this – that lesson has been well learned), and she has the business savvy to make money off a movement designed to bring change to your country. I wouldn’t call that being an idiot at all.

    If she can effectively project a “jes folks” image – and keep herself in the public eye in various ways – that again does not show idiocy. I realize that all the losers and jealous women who cannot stand that a conservative woman can bring home the bacon, cook it too, have a passel of kids – and run an entire state government – AND NOT BE A LIBERAL – will pick and pick and pick – just like high school girls do at the ones who do not belong to their little clique.

    But you’re not a high school girl, are you, Bing?

  • Ruvy

    By the way, I’m still waiting to find out who Paul thinks Sarah Palin is shilling for. I have my own ideas, but I want to see what he has to say.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That was one of your better comments, Archie.
    Of course, Ruvy may be right in that she’s merely playing the part, but I’d say she’s too natural at it to think of it as performance.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo thinks I’m a Palin supporter? I’d love to see hos rationale for that. I’ve never written anything positive about her except in the most general terms. She does seem like a nice lady, but aside from that I have no interest in her.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Though as you say, you’ve never out-and-out said that Dave, you do give that impression… but then again several people here appear to believe that I’m an ultra left liberal (eeeek!) who advocates killing little babies, allowing only faggots to teach highschool gym class, believes that all churches to be taxed and worships Obama, so I know a little bit about being misinterpreted…

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    …by the way, have you actually considered a photo of yourself smiling? I’ve tried to photoshop one on you for Christmas last year and no matter what I did it didn’t look right?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come on, Jet. You can’t just doctor the photo. You’ve got to arrange for a whole new shoot.

    And sorry that you, too, are being misunderstood.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, Dave, Pablo’s link in #5 is an interesting read. A fairly good analysis of the mindset.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Pablo,

    I wouldn’t mind discussing with you Sunstein’s paper. You’ve finally provided me with reading matter to which I can relate. Perhaps it might be beneficial to both of us.

    If you don’t mind giving it a shot, go for it.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    is chairmanship of the Republican Liberty Caucus (an oxymoron if I have ever heard one) is indicative of what I am talking about. Christine Todd Whitman, or John Danforth did not come out against the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act, or any other draconian big brother legislation to come out of Washington the last 5 or 6 years.

    Pablo, you seem to have confused the Republican Liberty Caucus with the Republican Leadership Council. I’m associated with the former and the people you mention are associated with the latter. Our website is at http://www.rlc.org go visit it sometime. The most notable elected RLC member is Ron Paul, though that’s going to change substantially this year as we put a couple of dozen new RLCers in DC.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    RLC is an acronym for both organizations. So where does Ron Paul belong?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Pablo, I will have to take a moment to defend Dave, not that he needs it; however, thing are happening so fast with the Obama administration that it is hard to keep track let alone write an article addressing every issue at hand.

    Sunstein has been a concern for many for some time and while I am not sure if Dave wrote about him; I did in my July, “Obama Czar” article and Sunstein IS a threat to free speech and other things.

    EXERPT:
    Case in point is an article by the New York Post, “Gag the Internet” (July 11, 2009) where it is reported that Sunstein “thinks that the bloggers have been rampaging out of control and that new laws need to be written to corral them.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You do have a valid point, Christine, about Sunstein’s views – not so much as it pertains to the cogency of his analysis of a conspiratorial mindset, but in recommending that government ought to take any kind of action.

    It is a paranoid kind of view – in fact, only lending support to conspiracy theorists – and it could possibly result in undesirable consequences.

  • Baronius

    Dave, why does the Tea Party movement have to become exactly what you want in order to fulfill its destiny? I’m guessing you’d like to see it become like the Republican Liberty Caucus, but better. Some people want it to be the Libertarian Party, but better, or the Gingrich or Reagan or Ron Paul Revolutions, but better.

    Thus, it’s natural that you’d tell them to organize, have conventions, and get money where they can. (Never mind that a good chunk of the supporters believe that money and even organization are destroying our country.) Political operatives measure the value of the movement in terms of money bombs. As a longtime pro-lifer, I feel the strongest kinship when a bunch of tea partiers stand in a park and get ignored by the press. But it’s not your or my movement. I’m not even sure it is a movement.

    So go back to fundamentals. What is it that the largest percentage of tea partiers want the tea party movement to be? Then, how would they best go about accomplishing it? Then, is it something you want to aid them toward, and can you? THAT’S what you should be advocating for.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sensible remarks, Baronius. If it’s truly a grass-roots movement, let it assume its natural form rather than try to harness it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dave,

    Obviously the Tea Party movement is diverse and it’s made up of lots of groups

    I would believe this if people from all groups were in those crowds, at the convention, and in Palin’s friends list on Facebook. But, the fact of the matter here is that they do not represent America.

    All of us, even Fins.

    :]Glad my comments are helpful.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Books by Sunstein:
    Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness.
    And if you can’t nudge (manipulate), you mandate, tax, and regulate…

    On Rumors: How Falsehoods Spread, Why We Believe Them, What Can Be Done
    He wants to be the rumor monitor; especially to protect his administration…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed he does, Christine. It looks his belief in democracy and people being able to make up their own minds is very shaky if he thinks it’s the government’s job to keep everybody on the straight and narrow.

    Reminds you of the Big Brother, doesn’t it?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Yeah, Roger Sunstein is scary and he holds a very high office in our government; watch out he is even after us bloggers!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    He isn’t scary. What is scary is that the White House might consider taking the counter-measures he’s proposing.

    It’s like they felt they couldn’t come up with a positive counter message and have to resort to underhanded tactics to combat dissenting voices.

    Which plays into the conspiracy theorists hands.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    And what is worse, is that if they (the gov) tries to control our free speech, how would “us” citizens fight for our other rights? That should scare both sides of the political isle.

    If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
    –George Washington

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Actually, adopting any such policy – apart from the possible infringement on our freedoms to speak our mind – would be more akin to setting up the kind of propaganda machine that’s characteristic of the Communist China or the old USSR.

    Who would have believed that our government might one day stoop to this level?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I really think this should be given greater exposure. Perhaps you might want to write an article on this. If not, I might do it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In fact, this may well be one legitimate gripe against the administration. What exactly do they plan to do with Sustein’s program? And if nothing, then WTF is he doing there?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Check this out Rog:

    II. Governmental Responses
    What can government do about conspiracy theories? Among the things it can do, what should it do? We can readily imagine a series of possible responses. (1) Government might ban conspiracy theorizing. (2) Government might impose some kind of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories. (3) Government might itself engage in counterspeech, marshaling arguments to discredit conspiracy theories. (4) Government might formally hire credible private parties to engage in counterspeech. (5) Government might engage in informal communication with such parties, encouraging them to help. Each instrument has a distinctive set of potential effects, or costs and benefits, and each will have a place under imaginable conditions. However, our main policy idea is that government should engage in cognitive infiltration of the groups that produce conspiracy theories, which involves a mix of (3), (4) and (5).

    Then he gives the example of the Easter Bunny and Santa and how they are okay to ignore, because they don’t do harm…To whom the government?

    The more I read the scarier it gets, Roger; you should do an article on this guy and did you download the essay?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Although this is not funny, I will say that if they ban “conspiracy theories”: Glenn Beck and Reverend Wright may be sharing the same prison cell in the future.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    I do have to disclose that I like Beck and he was the one that brought Sunstein to my attention.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    FreedomWorks, Americans for Prosperity, and the Tea Party Express have all been the targets of criticism because they are seen as sellouts or shills for special interests.

    Amen! They sure are.

    :]Right now,I am talking to comment Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes I did, Christine. I will then.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    As for the differences between this and the prior article, I’ve had time to think about the larger implications of the reaction to the convention since I wrote the first article.

    You’ve had a lot of time to look at things between these last two articles.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A brief bio on Sunstein.

    The proper title should be “Head of the Office of Controlling Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA),

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The question is – why did they all approve the formation of this department?

    This should be a red flag for any astute onlooker.

  • http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com Tom Degan

    I’m sorry, but if Sarah Palin is the candidate for president three years from now, It is going to make my life a whole hell of a lot easier. If she wins it will make my life a dream come true. As a blogger, I will never again have to touch my computer keyboard. These things will write themselves.

    I know this sounds exceedingly selfish on my part and I am embarrassed to say it in so public a forum. I hope she never goes away. For the self-described political satirist, she is the gift that keeps giving and giving and giving….

    I’m so ashamed.

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan
    Goshen NY

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    God, Don’t give these people your address or phone number.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good blog, Tom. Consider making a contribution to BC once in a while.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, why does the Tea Party movement have to become exactly what you want in order to fulfill its destiny? I’m guessing you’d like to see it become like the Republican Liberty Caucus, but better. Some people want it to be the Libertarian Party, but better, or the Gingrich or Reagan or Ron Paul Revolutions, but better.

    I don’t think it has to be like any of these things. I understand that it has its own identity and is ultimately a coalition of many different groups. However, they still need to evolve and one of the aspects of that is being willing to reach some sort of accomodation with the kinds of groups which can get them better funding and exposure. That’s all.

    But it’s not your or my movement. I’m not even sure it is a movement.

    Sure it’s our movement. I’ve been to a couple of Tea Parties. I have donated money to tea party backed candidates and the RLC which I’m part of is one of the groups organizing Tea Party events. It’s a populist movement. We’re all part of the populace.

    So go back to fundamentals. What is it that the largest percentage of tea partiers want the tea party movement to be? Then, how would they best go about accomplishing it? Then, is it something you want to aid them toward, and can you? THAT’S what you should be advocating for.

    Exactly. And I think what they want it to be is SUCCESSFUL, and to be successful it needs to find ways to broaden its appeal and make people aware of its message.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    As for Sunstein I agree that he has some very troubling ideas. But what’s really scary is that his vision of government truth police is shared by a LOT of people — mostly on the left — and some of them are in a position to implement it as policy.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger from what I understand this position was part of The Paperwork Reduction Act of 1980, that gave authority over the collection of certain information to the Office of Management and Budget (OMB). Within the OMB, the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) was established with specific authority to regulate matters regarding federal information and to establish information policies.
    About OIRA

    Hmmmmm; the actual position sounds interesting in and of itself; however, I will say that considering Obama surrounds himself with “radicals” that don’t give damn about the Constitution, this Sunstein character fits right in (am I being conspiratorial?)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s proof to me that the present Left – to misidentify it now with the Obama administration – must feel that they’re indeed on shaky grounds.

    Rather than coming forth with a positive message that might unite us all, the strategy they seem to opt for is one of shutting down to voice of the opposition.

    And this doesn’t bode well for the Republic.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Again, Christine, it sounds like the Communist China propaganda machine. And that’s despicable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And you do know that I don’t subscribe to Pablo’s conspiratorial set of mind.

    Still, he should be free to express his suspicions about the powers-that-be – and that’s regardless of the impact of his message.

    That is the essence of democracy, ain’t it, to have everyone’s voice heard. Instead, we seem to be retrogressing into a totalitarian mind set, whereby certain ideas are deemed dangerous.

    A foretaste of things to come? I don’t know! But I certainly appreciate now why Pablo is up in arms. It’s the government itself, our government, mind you, that appears most keen on entangling all of us in a sinister network of conspiracy.

  • Ruvy

    Roger,

    A foretaste of things to come? I don’t know! But I certainly appreciate now why Pablo is up in arms. It’s the government itself, our government, mind you, that appears most keen on entangling all of us in a sinister network of conspiracy.

    I see you are finally getting it! When certain ideas are deemed dangerous, no matter what label is used to make the banning sound alright (conspiracy, hate-speech, anti-Semitism, racism, etc., etc.), these bans (you can’t use the “K” word, the “N” word, etc. etc.) lay the groundwork for a totalitarian mentality.

    It’s not as bad as the Eastern European political culture of viewing anyone who disagrees with the leader as a traitor is – the culture that predominates here – but it gets you there.

    Eventually, YOUR government wants to control the computers, the internet, and other means of communication in the interest of rooting out “irresponsible rumor mongers and conspiracy theorists”. Then comes the law banning “insulting a government official” and other freedom quashing laws, all wonderful things we have in Israel.

    Why is it that I, writing from my roost in Liberated Samaria in Israel, a third of the world away, have to describe “freedom of speech” to you Americans, who should understand it in your bones and your guts?

    Give Obama and his would-be dictators their way, and you will be lucky to have the few freedoms the Dutch and English have. You will be living with a dhimmi, Euro-trash mentality. And why has nobody hear even thought to mention the trial of Geert Wilders in Holland on trumped up bullshit? You are headed down the sorry path of Holland.

    G-d save you all.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger from what I understand this position was part of The Paperwork Reduction Act of 1980

    On which of the Act’s 1750 pages may this provision be found?

    ;-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t want to compare it, Ruvy, to what you call “Euro-trash mentality.”

    To the best of my understanding, the good old England is still the bastion of free speech, never mind the EU. But America has always been reactive and more puritanical than the old culture. And that’s apart now from what you or I may think about the value of religion in one’s life.

    And so, I do find it distressing, all signs to the contrary, that we are approaching the kind of mentality that used to characterize the Communist block. Indeed, if there be anything that I would fault the current administration, it would be for allowing this kind of mindset to get hold.

    It is an abomination, pun intended.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Dr. D: did I make an error?

  • pablo

    Hmmm…..

    Yes Roger I am quite sure you know why I am up in arms so to speak. Dave calls Sunstein’s views troubling, I find them chilling, unamerican and downright dangerous.

    I fight for freedom. Freedom in itself is a rather simple concept. It means I can do whatever the fuck I want up to the point where in a clear and concise fashion it can be shown that my freedom of movement, diet, thoughts, speech, ideas, and much much more directly impinge on another persons rights. Unfortunately the vast majority of politicians and government employees do not share this belief.

    Being a firm believer in freedom, I can spot a phony a mile away. There is no great trick to it. It comes naturally to me. The Sarah Palins, Glenn Becks, and Dave Nalles of the world do not get past my radar for a second. Never have and never will.

    Ruvy you asked me about Sarah Palin and my comment on her being a shill. What I meant was that she is attempting to subvert a movement. Similarly to how Nalle operates on a much smaller level. I pay little to no attention to her, and my comment about her was in passing. I see no substance, no articulation, no character other than that of a pit bull with lipstick, and I do not find her to be attractive either.

    Christine, I am glad that we share in our outrage over Sunstein. What the powers that be revel in, is constantly keeping those that identify with the right versus the left at odds with each other. That is because they know that as long as they can do this they win. As you may or may not know Christine I came from an ultra liberal background in San Francisco. I am not interested in liberal or conservative ideologies. I am interested in freedom and liberty for myself and other sentient beings.

    I did not choose to be a coinspiracist Roger. All roads lead to Rome. I always use the term coinspiracist because the coin of the realm is fiat in nature, and this in itself is the underlying foundation of the flow of wealth and prosperity from the honest toiler to the bankers. He with the gold rules, in this case it is and has been for the past several centuries the Rothschilds. It matters not to me an iota whether they are black, white, buddhist, hindu, zoroastrian, yellow, brown, islamic or jewish. This family does however hide behind the mask quite successfully of anti-semitism.

    There should be outrage over Sunstein. Just as there should be outrage over John Holdren the Science czar for very similar reasons to Sunstein, that I could expound upon if asked.

    Roger, you are one of the few people on this site that has treated me with an iota of respect. As you may have noticed, I have never even hinted at a disparaging remark towards you. So you do not subscribe to my coinspiratorial view of politics, I have no problem with that. Hell you might even believe that 19 muslims from Saudi Arabia successfully carried out the largest military success against America in history! I don’t but at least we can be civil towards one another. My angst with Nalle in particular, and a few others in general, have to do with the way that I am treated. It is as simple as that.

    Nalle talks the talk but does not walk the walk. He is a snob, full of himself, boorish, uninteresting and snide. Thus I treat him in kind. He obviously is extremely jealous of Alex Jones, a fellow Texan, who not only has a vast audience in the US but around the world. Nalle has perhaps at most a few hundred readers, and of those I could count on one hand those that look up to him politically.

  • Ruvy

    Roger, An intellectual treat for you from my intellectual guide – Purification by Dr. Eugene Narrett.

    It’s an intellectual treat for the rest of you as well – if you can handle the $50 words and follow the idea line….

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dave,

    Considering that the first key-note was intent on informing Hispanics or any other minority you need not vote if you can’t spell or speak English properly, Who do they represent?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I tell you what, Pablo. I’ll read the article on Sunstein in the link you provided and we can take it from there. OK, bud?

    Once I’m done, I’ll post to that effect.

    PS: I think you’re right, BTW, about Lady Sarah. She is sabotaging the movement, whether we believe in its authenticity or not, for the simple reason that she knows that American politics is inseparable from money-interests. It’s always been so and always will be.

    So she’s no kind of fool, as some have insinuated, just plays both ends against the middle.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Instead of working on the real issues the Democrats decided to send out another game to add to the Tea Party’s

    Tell us what she is saying.

    I can’t wait, what game will we be playing next?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Where is Cindy?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #56, I tell you what, Ruvy,

    This requires multiple readings and I thank you for sharing it. A most challenging author indeed.

    Offhand, what I find most interesting is the contrast between the Hellenic/Western and the Jewish mind.

    More later.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s a fallout, Jeannie.

  • Ruvy

    Golly, Paul! I had almost given up on you! Thank you for answering my question. I told you that I had my own suspicions about Palin.

    On 29 August 2008, The Daily Kos came out with an article attempting to link Sarah Palin to the Army of Joel, an outgrowth of Dominionist Christianity that wants to conquer the world. In essence, the Army of Joel is at the point where Martin Luther was when he tried to get Jews to join him in the fight against the Catholics. The difference is that the Army of Joel is aware of the rejection of Luther by Jews and wants to finesse this rejection when making what amounts to the same offer again – “join us in a crusade to bring Christianity to rule the world.”

    How solid those links are I cannot determine. But I’ve seen her handle an Assembly of G-d crowd, and the fact that her church in Wasilla does believe in sending out people to convert others to Christianity. She is good at handling a church crowd, Paul. Also, she is very supportive of Israel and of the folks in the Land of Israel (like me). This goes in line with the Dominionist idea of building up Israel as an ally.

    This is not an act on Sarah Palin’s part. She believes in this with her heart, and can speak with full faith in front of a Tea Party crowd – and nudge them towards revolution.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ruvy, we used to have a couple of crazy dominionists who posted and commented on BC occasionally, but I believe they were eventually banned.

    As for free speech, it would be a tragedy if Pablo were silenced just for being a conspiracy nut. Without his presence I’d have far fewer opportunities to expose the fraudulent fictions which he spreads.

    And Jeannie, I have no idea what your comment to me meant so I can’t respond.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    Unity is one of the the most elusive pursuits. People are fickle and scatter brained. Most people don’t know enough about anything to have bankable opinions. Most people join “stuff” because of some obscure understanding of what they are signing on to. Because of that, the collective within the group has varying interests. Most of those interests are based on vague concepts that are base on their understanding of what justice is.

    What often works and is later reinterpreted as a time of unity are pivotal events or bigger than life symbols or characters that people bandwagon on to. If something hugely dramatic were to happen (like a leader to get killed or police were to shoot down the party members), then unity would come about. People would fall into a dazed agreeable mode, letting whomever is at the top of the movement lead them. We are joiners and bandwagoners as a species.

    With every movement, it’s always messy, the people are often immature and unclear about ideology; there is hardly EVER any unity. It’s only in retrospect that the great camaraderie and the unified force is celebrated.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Tremendous comment, Zedd.

    Why is it that you’re always on target. Or perhaps it’s something in your diet.

    In that case, let me have some.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There are exceptions, though. Think of the French Revolution and the storming of the Bastille.

  • Zedd

    roger,

    Wouldn’t you say that by the time the storming of the Bastille took place, the “bandwagoners” had been collected? There were those who benefited from the economic structure prior to the upheaval (maids, cooks, clergy, social climbers, wannabe’s and all levels of the middle class). I am sure that at first the revolutionaries were seen as troublemakers by most, even though the social mal-adjustments not to mention pure hunger was an apparent factor. I would categorize Marie Antoinette as a galvanizing (uniting force). The women who stormed the Bastille needed the drama that she provided to go “oh no she didn’t” :o), and rise up. Just a thought…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    You spoke! There shouldn’t be any fall-outs here..no matter how much I piss you all off!

    We are adults, and, although I don’t act like one..I am

    Talk to Cindy too…OK?

  • Zedd

    I just posted a GENIOUS comment :o) and it was rejected because I was suspected of not being Zedd. Boo hiss. I had a brief moment of lucidity. Now we’ve got to wait till next year to see if it reappears. It’s like waiting for the groundhog.

  • http://www.RLCNEF.org John Stevens

    My problem isn’t the involvement of money, foundations and companies. It is the loss of the message.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    WOW that was bold of me…

    :]

  • Zedd

    Sorry folks

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You know, this looks really wrong. Facebook is being changed too right now, so I might have to leave.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OK That’s better!

  • Zedd

    John Stevens,

    What is the message pray tell?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Quite right, Zedd, It was a rubble as the subsequent events leading to the Reign of Terror have amply attested.

    So perhaps we are on the same page insofar as popular movements are concerned. There is a momentum which seems to carry everyone forward and subsume all under its fold.

    As to your “genius” comment, I wouldn’t worry too much if I were you. They come dime a dozen of late.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yeah, what message, John Stevens, pray do tell!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You had nothing to do with it Jeannie.

    Sure, we’re all adults, but as they say, shit happens.

  • Zedd

    Awwwwe roger, shucks!

    Let’s schedule that cloning session. After a weekend of being pummeled by the woes and angst of teen girls, I think I need lil’ roger in my life, PRONTO!

    Jeannie,

    It was me! All my fault. Sorry.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Adios then.

  • Arch Conservative

    “but then again several people here appear to believe that I’m an ultra left liberal (eeeek!) who advocates killing little babies, allowing only faggots to teach highschool gym class, believes that all churches to be taxed and worships Obama, so I know a little bit about being misinterpreted…”

    Well whatever you are or pretend to be it’s obvious to everyone that you have a huge chip on your shoulder Jet.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    He’s gay, Archie, can’t you understand?

    So why don’t you give him a break.

  • Arch Conservative

    Fuck that. We all have our own problems. You think I a get out of jail free card every time a problem arises in my life because I’m straight?

    I can understand Jet being hostile to those who treat him poorly because he’s gay but that’s not the case with those he lashes out against here.

  • Arch Conservative

    she has the business savvy to make money off a movement designed to bring change to your country. I wouldn’t call that being an idiot at all.

    Ruvy…is Paris Hilton business savy? Are the Kadashians business savy? Is any American moron that was in the right place at the right time with the right gender, looks, or some other superficial attribute to be lauded as competent now?

    Palin is like a trained monkey. She knows that regurgitating trite talking points like “lower taxes” and “a strong national defense” will bring her money and notariety. Beyond that her understanding of economics and international affairs is suspect at best. Can you imagine Ms. Palin in a debate on economics with someone like Ron Paul?

    It may be that Palin is actually capable of understanding such issues but it’s never appeared to me that she has the desire to learn more.

    It irks me that because I’m conservative I’m supposed to fall all over myself with praise whenever this bimbo opens her mouth.

  • doug m

    If she had to deal with anything bigger than trite talking points, she would have had to write on both hands.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    On both hands or with both hands?

    Is that equivalent to being able to count your fingers and toes?

  • Arch Conservative

    I’ve got something for her to do with her hands.

    That’s not sexist because she’s a Republican right?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Oh, don’t worry about it Arch. Sexism is all in how you look at it. If you don’t think it’s sexist, it’s not. It’s all about having the proper open-mindedness about things. Some women probably like being told to heal and sit and stay. So, suggesting that treating women like that might be sexist is dehumanizing to those who like to be treated that way.

    Just think of your self as real humanitarian. You are providing a service for those women who like that sort of thing.

  • zingzing

    “That’s not sexist because she’s a Republican right?”

    and all republicans are men, so… you’re just mistaken about who you’re getting that handjob from, eh?

    meh. a handjob is a handjob is a handjob, i say. go for it, archie!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you saying, zing, that Jet and Archie could find peace?

  • zingzing

    shrug. a little death only brings temporary peace.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    I wonder how many members of the Tea Party know the real reason for the Boston Tea Party?

    It wasn’t simply “taxation without representation”, though that was the underlying problem. What really sparked the Boston Tea Party was the decision by the British crown to reduce the taxes on tea imported into the colonies by the most powerful international corporation in history: the East India Company.

    By reducing the tax on imported British tea, this act gave British merchants an unfair advantage in selling their tea in America. American colonists condemned the act, and many planned to boycott tea. When British tea ships arrived in Boston harbor, many citizens wanted the tea sent back to England without the payment of any taxes. The royal governor insisted on payment of all taxes. On December 16, a group of men disguised as Indians boarded the ships and dumped all the tea in the harbor.

    So what really sparked the original Tea Party wasn’t simply taxation without representation…it was a massive corporate tax break that was harmful to competition!

    But what does the modern-day Tea Party want? Tax breaks for all…including corporations which now enjoy ‘personhood’ thanks to activist conservative Supreme Court justices.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Arch –

    For once, you and I actually agree on something!

    It may be that Palin is actually capable of understanding such issues but it’s never appeared to me that she has the desire to learn more.

    She does indeed have the capacity…but she has neither the desire nor the realization of the necessity of increasing her knowledge and understanding of the world.

    Sadly, so many conservatives are okay with this.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Actually Glenn, although your story about the original tea party is correct – you may recall I related that same story on another thread a couple of weeks ago – you’re dead wrong about the modern tea partiers.

    The movement is strongly anti-corporate. IMO excessively anti-corporate verging on anti-capitalist. They see state corporatism as a big part of the problem and direct the same ire at both partners in that unhealthy relationship.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    Yeah well if you could just lose the Jesus complex you have we’d probably get along a whole lot better Jet.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Wrote- So what really sparked the original Tea Party wasn’t simply taxation without representation…it was a massive corporate tax break that was harmful to competition!

    Great explanation of the contrast between them!

    But what does the modern-day Tea Party want? Tax breaks for all…including corporations which now enjoy ‘personhood’ thanks to activist conservative Supreme Court justices.

    :] So sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I really like how you think!

  • Zedd

    Jet is emo. I think gays would be offended if we attribute his emotional instability to his sexual orientation. He can be a basket case at times. I think he’s admitted to it so no harm in stating it.

  • Zedd

    Glenn,

    Is it not the case that the tax had be rescinded by the crown actually. The issue of taxation was no longer there. It was rebel rousers and militants like Thomas Pane (who later fueled the fire) that spread the disinformation in order to promote the idea of secession.

    It was mute then as it is now.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Well of course everything I do is because I’m gay-that makes sense? That’s all I am, there’s absolotely anything else that means anything in my personality or intellect.

    You see it’s all because I chose to be gay. If I’m right-handed and reach for something with my left if’s because I chose to be gay.

    If I like Coke over Pepsi it’s because I chose to be gay.

    No other aspect of my life means anything once “People like Arch” get fixated on it.

    …probably because he doesn’t go to church

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    And what a good “choice” you made, Jet! That being said, sexuality plays a small role in adding up the sum total of an individual What happens is that society places too much emphasis on sexuality as opposed to individuality. That’s why those on the right fringe are so socially retarded when it comes to sex. Yes I used the “R” word and I’m not apologizing to Sarah Palin or the Special Olympics.

    Arch: You think I a get out of jail free card every time a problem arises in my life because I’m straight?

    I feel for you, Arch. It must be tough being a straight white conservative male in a metrosexual world. I mean, you have no style, no panache, no sense of design, and when it comes to fashion.. well, enough said. Straight white males really are tragic figures in a world full of such color and diversity.

    BTW, that was tongue in cheek. Watch it, Jet, I KNOW what you want to say next….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, not all straight while males, Silas, excuse me!!!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Yeah, but, Roger — you’re Harvey Fierstein trapped in a straight white male body.

  • zingzing

    silas: “Straight white males really are tragic figures in a world full of such color and diversity.”

    oh, silas… you should come to brooklyn. guys get girls to fuck them by dressing up like… well… and i’m guilty of this too… you understand. tight pants, a little style, “is he? isn’t he? wonderful!” mhmm. works wonders.

    we’ll take your shit and shove it in some… hrm…

    for the past three new year’s eves and easters, i’ve gone to a party at a highrise penthouse in hell’s kitchen. really damn nice place, good food, free booze, a wrap-around balcony 10 blocks off times square, owned by a gay man known by my gay friends, populated mostly by gay men, and a few artsy, fashionable women. i’m batting 1.000 there. always get laid. every damn time. gay guys are my unwitting wingmen. (maybe it’s that i’m the only game in town (or close to it), but maybe i just know where to place my bets.)

    as ruvy would say, gay guys are my “useful idiots,” but i mean that in the most loving, thankful way. can’t wait til easter. gay parties! uh!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks for the compliment, Silas. I’ve been called worse than that.

  • zingzing

    i really hope that this thread, given its subject, takes a turn into how straight men can use gay men to get laid. i really do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t think you should protest too much, zing. Accept the compliment and run with it.
    And variety is good too – spice of life, as they say.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I never needed any help, but then again, never to proud to refuse it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Silas is basically right about straight whites except he should preface it: American variety.

    Europeans are much more comfortable with their sexual identity. Touching a male (in all the right places, I must preface) is normal; here it’s necessarily a sexual overture.

    Puritanical people, these Americans.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Oh my goodness, it’s Nalle’s thread. We don’t want to shock him.

  • Arch Conservative

    No other aspect of my life means anything once “People like Arch” get fixated on it.

    Roger brought up your sexual orientation. Not me. You have such a talent for ignoring the obvious Jet.

    [personal attack deleted]

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Nalle’s thread? That’s OK, Roger, he’s Paul Lynde trapped in a straight white Texan male conservative body. That’s why I adore all things Nalle. He’s the coolest cat.

    oh, silas… you should come to brooklyn. guys get girls to fuck them by dressing up like… well… and i’m guilty of this too…

    I’ll be in NYC in March, zing. If you need some hookups, I will be more than happy to accommodate. I know a few great gals in Brooklyn. They’re a wild bunch — very open minded. I’ve been known to facilitate the ultimate straight male fantasies now and again. I’m an equal opportunity matchmaker. I’m not a big fan of sexuality pigeon-holing. We’re sexual creatures to begin with. It’s not about being straight, gay or bisexual. It’s about being human. I’m not a huge fan of John Cameron Mitchell but his movie Shortbus is a favorite of mine. It explores a woman’s quest to achieve orgasm. An amazing singer, Jay Brannan, is in the movie. I’ve seen him perform — amazingly sweet, spiritual kid. I see great things in his future. I recommend it highly — especially to YOU.

    Europeans are much more comfortable with their sexual identity.

    So TRUE, Roger. That’s why the majority of my male friends are not American these days. Europeans don’t routinely consider sexuality as the be-all, end-all of identity. They go with the flow, experiment, rinse and repeat.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    To quote Robert Palmer, Arch; “oooooooo-I didn’t meant to turn you on.”

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Oh Arch. Jet’s not that bad. You guys have some passionate differences but you are more alike than different. You’ve grown on me these last 8 weeks. I actually look forward to your banter and Yankee approach to things.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s a hell of a comparison – sinister and comical at the same time. I, too, can’t really be mad at him.

    Rinse and repeat – another good one.

    Fortunately, most American women aren’t as hung about sex either, so I can’t complain.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But that’s the problem, Jet. You have!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Speaking of passionate differences, there’s always a time and a place; and so is the assignment of the respective roles.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Shoot, the libertine in me is showing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come on, guys and gals. It’s libido time.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m not a huge fan of John Cameron Mitchell but his movie Shortbus is a favorite of mine.

    Oh, I love Shortbus. It’s a beautiful movie, acted and directed with great compassion.

  • zingzing

    silas–ha-HA!!!! i saw shortbus before it was even released! of course, that was the last time i saw it… a good 3 or 4 or 5 years ago at least. it was shown on college campiiiii before being released or something, i guess. i thought it was provocative, sometimes in needless ways, but it got its points across. although i’ll have to see it again in order to make sure i’m not making shit up.

    hedwig (which i saw after) was a revelation. he was so damn funny, awesome and touching. what a great movie.

    ahem, and i quote:

    Ladies and gentlemen, do you like the pelt? Be honest, because some *bitch* stopped me on the way in. “What poor and unfortunate creature had to die for you to wear that?”

    My Aunt Trudy, I replied. Walked away, ladies and gentlemen, walked away!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Speaking of Robert Palmer, Addicted To Love.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Indeed it is. They should require viewing Shortbus in every film school across this land. I have this sick fantasy of tying Eric Cantor up ala A Clockwork Orange and forcing him to watch it. The film would be a hit on You Tube.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The film would be a hit on You Tube.

    I think that’s where I watched it!

    Maybe not YouTube – they’re rather prudish. But the movie is available in its entirety somewhere online. Can’t remember where.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Roger? A Libertine? You ARE Harvey Fierstein!

    Somehow I KNEW Shortbus was going to be your kind of movie, zing. Hedwig was OK, I liked Party Monster better.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I think gays would be offended if we attribute his emotional instability to his sexual orientation.”

    Certainly no more than blacks if we attributed your lack of intelligence to your race.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s why I’m so much on the brainy side, Silas, to compensate for my other nature.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jet mustn’t have seen Zedd’s comment.

  • zingzing

    what did he have to do with party monster? or is there something i’m missing?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    This is getting better and better.

  • zingzing

    we’re all teabaggers in the sack.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But at least of the right variety, zing.

  • zingzing

    the right variety left.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I meant wholesome people. Political leanings merely follow.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Party Monster has nothing to do with John Cameron Mitchell but is very much in the vain of his film work. I love that movie, especially Vilmer as DJ Keoki — one of my all time favorite DJs.

    we’re all teabaggers in the sack.

    zing? Are you certain you’re 100% hetero? I mean, it’s ok if you’re a 4 on the Kinsey scale. I won’t hate you.

    That’s why I’m so much on the brainy side, Silas, to compensate for my other nature.
    Brainiacs make the greatest lovers, Roger. So, in a sense, you have no need to compensate.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Speaking of brainiacs. Sunday afternoon I was involved in a conversation concerning John Edwards. At some point, it was mentioned that John Edwards was “well endowed” (like you, zing). Anyway, one of the brainiacs in the room said, “yeah that lucky son of a bitch didn’t have to pay any school loans”. To which another asked, “what does that have to do with endowment?”. The brainiac replied that since John Edwards was a White Southern Christian male with an education, he must have had a lot of scholarships. The brainiac maintains he never equates penis size with white males.

    So, long story short, we discussed possible prosecutions of Sen. Schlong. And it was decided that no matter what kind of “peers” heard his case, there would be a problem reaching a verdict after watching the sex tape. Talk about a hung jury!

    Ba dum bump.

  • zingzing

    “zing? Are you certain you’re 100% hetero?”

    seems so, sorry to say. i do empathize on a remarkable scale, however. if only i could really feel… wait… your evil gay traps won’t work on me! fuck gays! wait, no! don’t fuck them! that’s what i keep telling myself. not really. meh.

    if there weren’t women, i’d totally be gay. so fast. and if there weren’t men, i’d be… something that got off on its own. wait. shit. goddamn it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, but I have to sublimate lest I get locked up.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You mean you were never in a gay bar, zing, and patted on the butt?

    And where do you say you live? In New York City?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That was a brainiac joke, Silas.

    I too speak of endowment now and then only to be misunderstood totally.

    Just kidding. Double-entendre is too much in my blood.

  • zingzing

    actually, roger, one of my favorite stories is how my good, good friend and i and another friend were wandering around the west village one night in search of this place that my good, good friend only knew of and we were really drunk and we wandered and wandered trying to find this place, and he finally said, “i think this is it” and we ended up in a black gay club.

    there were 2-for-1 drink specials.

    it was an event.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    I love “Double-entendres” especially in porn films. Oh, wait a minute, that’s double d#!*$s. Never mind.

    zing, if you are the voracious woman hound you claim to be, then you are a gay man trapped in a straight man’s body and I salute you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I can vouch for the fact there is no other way of growing up. How else are you going to find out who you really are if not as a result of exposure.

    Sexual identity is a product of self-discovery.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    See, Silas, you’ve got even zing talking of two on one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Freudian slip, zing, whether you admit it or not. Or the hands of destiny.

    It’s never too late!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps we should rename this thread as “The School for Scandal.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Gosh, I wish Oscar Wilde was here.

  • zingzing

    “zing, if you are the voracious woman hound you claim to be, then you are a gay man trapped in a straight man’s body and I salute you.”

    i am not a “voracious woman hound” at all. i’m a good human being with very few “relationship material”s at the moment. when the right woman comes around, i’m a wonderful person… i can’t think of the word that describes a person as “one who doesn’t cheat” right now, but that’s what i am. what’s that word? i know “faithful,” but there’s another word. one with more meaning…

    but when women aren’t presenting themselves, i’m the motherfuckin peacock who makes a mess of himself. it leads to bad things, and good things, but more bad things. and that’s how i exist.

  • zingzing

    geez, roger.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Devoted? But you probably meant monogamous.

    BTW, I’m the same way. It’s only when I know it’s the end of the affair (Graham Greene) that I step out to put us all out of our misery. A tactical move, because I never want to be Mr. Nice Guy. So I leave them with their hatred of me as my parting gift.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come on – you must see that biological is too simplistic an account.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    I’ve been monogamous for 4 years now (and I was when married come to think of it until the very end) and I recommend it highly. I’ve had my share of Shortbus-like scenes. They were fun and adventurous and all a part of that “discovery” Roger alludes to. But there’s nothing like being committed to one person – heart, body and soul. There’s nothing like knowing no matter how bad things get, you have a half of yourself who will always have your back. There’s something to be said for unconditional love and I’m sad it isn’t more a part of our culture. We place too many expectations upon those we love that we set ourselves up for failure.

    Damn, I’m an old sentimental fool. Rugby, anyone?

  • zingzing

    meh, “monogamous” and “devoted” aren’t the words i’m looking for, although “monogamous” does get close enough, in the right situation. i’m a good person, i’d like to think.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come to think of it, this goes to show that gender roles are culturally transmitted, with appeal to biology as a basis.

    Hence the idea of gayness as form of liberation. Or at any case, that only as a result of exposure can we find out whether we’re comfortable with those roles, and to what extent.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Addicted to love, Silas. I second that.

    Zing, you may have meant “not promiscuous,” but that’s a negative.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Where’s Cindy when you need her?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I am a chauvinist sexist pig, don’t you know that?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Probably because I lost my virginity in a bordello.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    …boy am I glad I wandered off when I did!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sweet dreams, Jet.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Oh, Roger, if you’re a male chauvinist pig, Arch Conservative is Truman Capote.

    Probably because I lost my virginity in a bordello.
    At least you were trained by a professional. That gave you the edge, so to speak.

    …boy am I glad I wandered off when I did!
    Come back, Little Sheba.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    If you think I’m putting that costume back on you’re crazy

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    What a wonderful thread. Men seriously discussing their feelings about sexuality.

    I think I have always sort of seen gayness as a form of liberation. (Not being gay, this is a tentative position.) I think that is a good way to put it. I could never entirely be liberated myself (sigh).

    What do Jet and Silas think about that?

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    It’s a double edged sword, Cindy. Being accepting of one’s sexuality is a form of liberation. As I’ve indicated many times before, I’ve tried to avoid subscribing to this sexuality label thing. I think we are all sexual creatures. As we evolve we find the “preference” that is most comfortable for us. For the most part straight men have a difficult time admitting they may have actually “thought about it”. For women it is a much easier notion because they “get” it.

    One of the problems with contemporary LGBT life revolves around the self-loathing aspect. I watched Outrage again last night and came to a very disturbing realization. It’s common knowledge that most of Washington politics is driven behind the scenes by a sinister cabal of self-loathing homosexuals. (Sorry, Blogcritics, I had to use it.) These people hate themselves so much that they will work with the Far Right to virtually destroy anything which opens up LGBT life into the mainstream. Therein lies the second problem. Most voraciously far right white males have sexuality issues. That’s my opinion and it is based on my own personal experiences from 1980 forward starting with my work on the Reagan campaigns. I’ve seen it for myself and the results of his dirty little secret contributes to the intense division which permeates Washington today.

    So what do we do about it as a society? First of all, we have to understand that sexuality does not define the individual. And we cannot give license to the right fringe to continue their McCarthy-esque witch hunt of the LGBT community. The open LGBT community especially the HRC and GLAAD need to understand that they are contributing to the problem by their silence. It’s time to call them all out of their closets. It’s time to expose these politicians and their minions for the duplicitous pieces of shit they really are. Too activist? Perhaps. In my mind not activist enough. If the right wants to use sexuality as a political weapon it is incumbent upon the “tolerant ones” to obliterate their closet doors.

    The conservative cause has effectively used the “abomination” concept to their advantage. The closeted ones fuel the fires of hate by creating rhetoric for the conservative leaders to use. They deny their very essence out of fear and shame and the result is what we have now. That’s immoral. It’s anti-Christian. And it must come to an end.

    I’ll get off my soapbox now. I have a snow storm to tend to.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We are sexual creatures first and foremost, Silas. It’s the primal energy kind of thing.

    It’s only later, via the mechanism of sex, that we learn about love and transcend what’s merely physical. But given we are embodied beings, with passions and desires and all the appetite with which we are brought into this world, sex is invaluable and the prototype of all human values and longings. Besides that, it’s the gateway to the future, of bridging the gap between the spirit and the flesh – through love of course – and after a fashion, become immortal.

    That’s why I aspire to, and I know you do too.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Nicely put Silas, I hate being identified by my sexuality first as if there’s no other aspect about my life that matters.

    That’s why most gays hat the term homoSEXUAL.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Jet, we’re all defined about our sexuality first, the nature of the beast. So you shouldn’t resent it, not really.

    Of course I understand the deeper meaning – like to say that BECAUSE of your sexuality you’re such and such.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    We are sexual creatures first and foremost, Silas. It’s the primal energy kind of thing.

    Indeed, Roger. And you get it.

    That’s why most gays hat the term homoSEXUAL.

    That’s why I call duplicitous, power mad, pieces of shit like Eric Cantor, John Boehner and Larry Craig homoservatives, Jet. But, at the same time, I have to call it like I see it. Log Cabin Republicans, the HRC and GLAAD must bear responsibility for not doing more to out these people. They made sexuality the issue, we must expose their motivations.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The motivation is self-loathing, which I can understand from the psychological standpoint. What I wouldn’t put up is playing up to the dumb constituents.

    But I thought you liked Eric Cantor, kind of sneaky, a weasel type, but likable.

    That’s my impression.

  • http://blogcritics.org/video/feature/conspiracy-theory-with-jesse-ventura/ Alan Kurtz

    In this thread’s fifth comment, Pablo introduced Cass Sunstein, head of OMB’s Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, and provided a link to Conspiracy Theories, a 2008 academic research paper by Sunstein and fellow legal scholar Adrian Vermeule. This triggered an extended exchange between Christine Lakatos and Roger Nowosielski. Now, in the latest entry to my BC feature Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura, I too address the Sunstein & Vermeule thesis. Accordingly, I thank Pablo, Christine and Roger for their stimulating discussion, which led me to this fruitful source.

    As I see it, Sunstein is in no position to implement his counter-conspiracy proposals. For one thing, he’s on shaky administrative ground. Nominated by President Obama in April 2009, Sunstein plunged immediately into bureaucratic limbo. His confirmation was blocked for five months by rightwing Deep South senators alarmed by Sunstein’s animal rights advocacy, forcing the nominee to pledge in writing that he “would not use my position at OIRA to promote animal standing in civil litigation.” Moreover, OIRA has no administrative mandate to “de-bias” conspiracy theorists or practice “cognitive infiltration,” as Sunstein & Vermeule recommend. In other words, the only thing we have to fear about Sunstein is fear itself.