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It’s Time for John McCain to Reach Out to Ron Paul

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Regardless of the insane optimism of some Ron Paul supporters, most of us have come to terms with the reality that John McCain is going to be the Republican nominee. His peculiar mix of fiscal libertarianism, traditionalism and moderation on social issues may trouble some, but it is closer to a truly libertarian position than any Republican presidential candidate since Barry Goldwater. It may also be just the mix to win over angry Clinton Democrats and moderates who can't stomach the leftward drift of the Democratic Party. He's not the dream candidate for anyone, but he may be the best we could have hoped for out of the mess left behind by the Bush administration.

From his dominant position, with 300 more pledged delegates than he needs for the nomination, McCain can afford to be magnanimous to those who ran against him and held out to the very end on the basis of principle. If the McCain campaign has a weak point, it is among the grassroots of the party. Younger, highly motivated voters were attracted to Ron Paul, and McCain could really use their idealism and enthusiasm on his side in November. To win over those voters, many of whom still cling to hope for some sort of last minute miracle, McCain needs to win over Ron Paul, or at least deal with him in a way which shows that McCain embraces Paul's ideals and will incorporate them into his campaign and administration to at least some reasonable extent.

What's more, angry Paul supporters are bent on sowing chaos at the state and national Republican conventions, and party insiders are just as intensely focused on shutting them down, which will generate even more anger and resentment within the party. Although Paul currently has only 30 pledged delegates, his grassroots support is much more substantial than that number represents, and might make a very big difference in the national election. Dealing with Paul and his supporters openly and soon is the only way to turn all their energy and anger into a positive force in November and heal what might turn into a serious rift in the party. The only person in a position to rise above the fray and make a grand gesture of inclusion is John McCain himself.

McCain needs to reach out to Ron Paul and to his supporters and offer them a hand of friendship and do it soon. He needs to show them something more substantial and convincing than mere friendly words. While it would be unrealistic for McCain to offer Paul the Vice Presidential nomination given their similar ages and geographic backgrounds, McCain ought to make sure that Paul gets far more consideration than party insiders, who resent his movement, are likely to allow him. McCain should start by talking about Paul and acknowledging and agreeing with some of his ideas. They do have a lot of points of agreement, and stressing those is going to win McCain a lot of positive attention. For a start, those areas of agreement ought to end up being prominent in the party platform. McCain should also stress the need for party unity, and the fact that whatever differences he and Paul may have, the real threat comes from the statist/socialist left and its takeover of the Democratic Party, a threat which many Paul supporters ought to be able to see.

More substantially, McCain should use his influence to get Paul a prominent speaking position at the Republican National Convention. Not the kind of 2am ceremonial blow-off scheduling which party leaders will grudgingly allow him, but a position which will get media coverage and make clear to the rank and file that McCain does endorse and support some of Paul's more reasonable ideas. This might require some negotiation over what Paul would say and who he would attack. But even if Paul made his most angry, anti-establishment speech, that would still reflect positively on McCain and the party in general.

Ideally, McCain should go even further. I think he ought to offer Paul a position in his cabinet, by creating a new cabinet-level position uniquely suited to Paul's talents. One of the things they both agree on is the need to limit the size of government. Why not create a position like "Budget Czar" specifically designed to look into ways to reduce spending, cut the budget and eliminate wasteful programs, and give that job to Ron Paul? Who is better qualified to enforce fiscal responsibility than the legendary "Dr. No"?

Yes, all of this does amount to shamelessly buttering up Ron Paul to get his endorsement and win over his supporters, and while that may seem a bit self-serving and manipulative, that's what politics is all about. The question is how Paul and his followers would respond to an open offer of friendship and even alliance from McCain. Paul is an ideologue, as are many of his supporters. Would the offer of a seat at the tables of power be enough to get them to accept some compromise and grab for the opportunity they are offered, or would they rather slink back into the obscurity of self-righteous ideological purity?

If McCain were to take these actions, or something along similar lines, he would send a message to independent voters and disaffected Republicans that he genuinely stands for change and for putting the party back on the right course, even if he plans to do it with some reasonable moderation. The party needs the young, motivated voters who have been drawn to Ron Paul. It would be foolish of McCain not to try to draw that element into his campaign. Paul has more in common with McCain than he did with any of the other GOP candidates, and that ought to be something to build on. McCain is known for his ability to compromise. A compromise with Ron Paul and his supporters might be what it takes to win him the presidency.

The time to reach out to Ron Paul and bring his followers into the fold is now. The Democrats are still weak and squabbling and it would give the media something positive to focus on instead. Stealing that media attention and generating some momentum would be a very good idea with the election less than 6 months away.

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About Dave Nalle

  • John

    McCain can sing all signs of friendship, but he ain’t getting my vote. I remember how he laughed and smirked during debates at Ron Paul. He will lose this election even if i have to vote Obama.

  • David Wooten

    McCain and Paul having virtually nothing in common and Paul’s supporters are not going to vote for a war monger like McCain. McCain believes in sacrifice. Paul has read Ayn Rand and believes in the “invisible hand” of self-interest. McCain is an internationalist who supports global warming and seems to support world government including the International Court of Justice which could try American soldiers for war crimes ordered by McCain. Paul’s supporters will not vote for McCain.
    The best thing for the Republicans to do is nominate a sacrificial lamb like McCain who will lose and suffer the blame. Republicans did very well when Clinton was president. As I recall, they took over the House for the first time in 40 years. What they need to do is get rid of McCain-types. Sure, give Paul supporters a role at the the convention and some influence in drawing up the platform. McCain will lose, either way. Maybe then the Republicans will stop being the stupid party.

  • Baronius

    Dave, you’ve been fighting the good fight on the boards lately, and more power to you. But I don’t see the reasoning behind this article. McCain and Paul are close in those areas in which you agree with both – most people wouldn’t see the two of them as similar. Paul’s supporters are loyal to a fault, and not awfully interested in re-energizing the GOP. McCain may be a compromiser, but he never forgives people for running against him. I just don’t see any motivation for either faction to reach out to the other.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Strangely I don’t remember McCain laughing and smirking – as I recall that was Giuliani. But then you’re clearly not rational since you’d even consider voting for a statist/socialist over any Republican.

    Dave

  • CD

    I laughed out loud when I read McCain should create a new position for Ron Paul as budget czar. Don’t you realize that very act is expanding government? Are they too stupid to limit their spending? McCain could kiss Ron Paul’s feet and I would still never vote for him.

  • Russ

    Well, Dave, first of all, John didn’t say he’d vote for Obama over ANY Republican. And secondly, yes, it IS VERY STRANGE you don’t recall McCain’s smirks. I do. And he won’t be getting my vote either.

  • Elias

    How anyone can consider McCain to be anything other than a big government statist is beyond me. Where does McCain stand on free political speech? Against it. Where does McCain stand on gun rights? Against them. Where does McCain stand on war? Bomb-bomb-Iran. Where does McCain stand on the Patriot Act? For it. Where does McCain stand on torture? A-OK. I don’t care if the Democrats nominate Hitler – I’m still not voting for McCain. Plus the very idea that McCain could reach out to Ron Paul is ridiculous. What could he possibly say to him?

  • Judy

    McCain has no capablility or intention of winning. He is intentionally doing for Obama what Huckster did for him. The deals have been made. Obama will play ball with the FED, we won’t invade Iran, oil will drop in half by March, and liberals will forget about our real problems and focus on solving the illusionary issues while conservatives curse them on the radio.

    I really hate how predicable all this becomes once you understand the players. It was more fun years back when I had the privledge of being nieve.

    This last year has proven to me that there is no stopping the inevitable economic trainwreck coming. To see the level of brainwashing the MSM engages in on a regular bases and the inability of Americans to realize it is very disturbing. It’s like being in a country full of masocists with Stockholm Syndrome.

    If anyone actually reads this, I suggest you start looking out for numero uno or else you are going to end up in some deep numero dos.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    How anyone can consider McCain to be anything other than a big government statist is beyond me.

    It might be because he’s done more to cut the budget and oppose earmarks and pork than any other sitting Senator.

    Where does McCain stand on free political speech? Against it.

    Hardly. That’s a self-serving interpretation of his efforts at campaign finance reform which were designed to give the common man more of a voice, but of course failed utterly because they were poorly conceived and compromised.

    Where does McCain stand on gun rights? Against them.

    Where do you get this crazy stuff from? McCain is one of the strongest supporters of gun rights in the Senate. Take a look at his voting record sometime.

    Where does McCain stand on war? Bomb-bomb-Iran.

    OMG he has a sense of humor. Lynch him.

    Where does McCain stand on the Patriot Act? For it.

    Of the vast majority who voted for PATRIOT, McCain is one of the few to support repealing or limiting some of the worst provisions of it.

    Where does McCain stand on torture? A-OK.

    Except that he’s about the only elected Republican to strongly support a policy limiting torture.

    I don’t care if the Democrats nominate Hitler – I’m still not voting for McCain. Plus the very idea that McCain could reach out to Ron Paul is ridiculous. What could he possibly say to him?

    As I suggested in the article, it would be a bribe of sorts. Paul is an egomaniac, he might go for it.

    Dave

  • Jeffrey

    I would gladly vote for John McCain if he can compromise enough to actually keep the oath of office of the US President.
    I am amazed that any of the candidates besides Dr. Paul could mouth the words shamelessly without choking or batting an eye.

    “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

    Defend our Bill of Rights. Get out of undeclared wars. No to bullying, bribing or manipulating other nations. Re-establish Checks & Balances. No to over-taxing, over-regulating and meddling in peoples personal, professional or spiritual lives.
    We need to remember we elect our leaders to protect the Constitution, and the Constitution is meant to limit the powers of government and keep these powers from those who would abuse them.
    I do not realistically see McCain taking the meaning of the oath with any seriousness.

  • Zach

    Yes, the cards have already been dealt, the game is rigged. The deal was made long ago and the MSM is unfolding this pre packaged bottle of death pills live to DA MASSES. While NO ONE seems to notice and no one cares, they swallow it and refill the prescription. Face it, we live in a country where people vote according to the way people look, talk, and how many times the MSM says a candidate’s name and people like Ron Paul don’t get mentioned even though he is CLEARLY what this country needs, and I think you stated that pretty well in your article. You didn’t say it, but you said it. Republicans through MSM propaganda have adopted traditional liberal policies as Truman was the one who dropped nukes on Japan, while now we have a “Republican” singing songs like “bomb bomb Iran”. It’s called neo conservatism and the Republicans have fallen for these old Democrat positions hook, line and sinker. I would NEVER vote for insane McCain if you paid me to do it. Either the Republican Party hands the Nomination to Ron Paul, or they hand the Presidency over to the Dems and the Rep’s are finished for a LONG time. But of course, that’s me speaking as if there were hope of fair play and the game wasn’t fixed. McCain will be the fall guy because that’s the way it’s going to be. Sad but true. Everyone’s so buffaloed with this “change” nonsense and voting for Obama anyway. He will give us change….in the pocket that is….when he hikes your taxes and makes sure that’s exactly what you will end up with. “Yes he CAN!” and Yes he will. So go now prepare for the great depression deux and vote for change!

  • http://www.nolanchart.com/author27.html Michael McDonnough

    Paul is an ideologue alright. His ideas are the congruent with the US Constitution. I think McBush would have problems inviting a strict constitutionalist to speak at the neo-con convention. The republican party would need to reject the war mongers and crazies including McBush in order to be on the same page as Ron Paul. I just do not see it happening. I wish reason and American values were on the neo-con agenda but they simply are simply not. They will likely continue with their authorian agenda and abandon the constitution.

  • ricknhouston

    Well Dave, you’ve finally swallowed the Big red Pill, haven’t you? How totally disappointing you have become! I’m ashamed to say we even live in the same city! I don’t really even know why I’m suprised by this suggestion, it hasn’t been all that long ago that you were chastising RP’s supporters for chasing Sean Hannity thru the snow and ice covered streets of New Hampshire, saying that “We would be the cause of RP’s failed campaign”, that if “they didn’t learn how not to get mad at the likes of” … whatever that little cutie, rosie cheeked, nat’l polling expert’s name was … you know… the one who screwed up and planted the same “man off the street, unbiased voter” in two consective primary’s … Frank something or another. You know who I’m talking about…. as if we din’t have good damned reason to be pissed off and out for blood. And now… from that same mouth you have the unmitigated gall to suggest that RP supporters would even consider getting into bed with these imposters??? You should be ashamed. i think you know, deep down, what each and every one of us plans to do come November if Ron Paul’s name isn’t printed on the Ballot. As to whether it matters to us what you or anyone else thinks about it .. as to whether or not it is a “vote wasted” … well I guess that will just fall under the heading of “it’s a free country … think what yu will”! As to what all of us will think about all the votes cast for Mccain, including yours, as being “votes wasted” … we’ll, if you don’t support the Ron Paul revolution then I don’t see that you have much choice because to be for the status quo you have to accept the edict that you support the Republican Party as it is and for what it is. The only thing we can hope for in the future is that following this election cycle, with the guidance of Ron Paul and by the grace of God we will begin to see a rebirth of Our Party, the “Real, Conservative, American, Republican Party”. I hope, for your sake, that you and the others can come to your senses and return to the place from whence you came, but be forwarned … in order to do so … you have to know that it’s gonna be the it used to be … not anything at all like it is today!

  • ricknhouston

    As I suggested in the article, it would be a bribe of sorts. Paul is an egomaniac, he might go for it.

    Dave

    **************************************************
    Your just full of yourself, tonite, aren’t you? Oh, and if ever there were an “ego maniac” … I suggest you take a good long look in the nearest mirror!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    Nice article, Dave. But it’s not going to happen.

    Here’s Ron Paul on John McCain, just a couple of months ago:

    Republican Rep. Ron Paul told the Tribune this morning he will not back Sen. John McCain as his party’s nominee unless the Arizona senator “has a lot of change of heart.”

    “I can not support anybody with the foreign policy he advocates, you know, perpetual war. That is just so disturbing to me,” Paul said.
    “I think it’s un-American, un-Constitutional, immoral, and not Republican.”

    So, Ron Paul is unlikely to ever endorse John McCain, unless McCain completely changes his position on Iraq, which ain’t going to happen.

    Also, as I remember from the debates, John McCain would always roll his eyes and chuckle whenever Ron Paul would answer a question about foreign policy. So clearly McCain has very little respect for the Congressman from Texas.

    By the way, on a semi-related note, the Libertarian Party just nominated Bob Barr as their presidential candidate, with Wayne Allyn Root as his running mate. Both are former Republicans.

    It wouldn’t surprise me one bit if Barr-Root managed to win a Ralph Nader-like (circa 2000) percentage of the popular vote.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “I don’t care if the Democrats nominate Hitler – I’m still not voting for McCain.”

    Wow, that only took seven comments. I overshot that one by about 30.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I’d say that what I’m suggesting might be just the kind of ‘change of heart’ Paul is looking for.

    The whole McCain and ‘perpetual war’ thing is bullshit anyway, and Paul ought to know it. The ‘war’ in Iraq is long over, and McCain was talking about a small long-term military support force, not a perpetual occupation. Anyone who portrays his comments otherwise should be immediately marked up as twisting the facts for political purposes.

    Dave

  • http://www.myspace.com/neilgregorymusic Neil

    haha Dave Nalle… this was one of your more funnier articles. Your missing the whole point. John McCane is in the CFR. The CFR wants globalism, amnesty, a North American Union, a central bank who wants to subsidize our economy for federal gains, big gov. beaurocracy, he’s not talking about free market medicine, free market agriculture, free market energy sufficiency.

    John McCanes biggest campaign contributers, were banks and insurance companys. Ron Pauls were from active duty military personel.

    Why would Ron Paul even remotely want to get close to supporting a McCane/neocon platform?

    It’s a good thing we are taking our republican party back. One state at a time. No more central bank, no more preimptive war, no more IRS, back to constitutional values.

    In spiritual terms it’s almost as if society has to devolve in order to evolve and sadly, I think people will ultimatly wake up when there is a total collapse of the fiat currancy.

    History will repeat it’s self once again.

    You probably could be an imaginitive fiction journalist though.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    On many issues Libertarians are actually closer to Democrats than Republicans.

    1) Both against Waging illegal wars.
    2) Both against an overeaching foreign policy that gets us involved in places we shouldn’t be without allies.
    3) Both against fiscal irresponsbility. (On spending Republicans are no better than Democrats, McCain has not given any substantial account of how he will cut the budget – the 100 billion in earmarks figure is bogus – he has proposed cutting taxes but not where the money will come from which IMO should be the far more important part to both Republicans and Democrats).
    4) Both against infringements of our personal liberties such as those found in the PATRIOT act.

    Sure there are other huge differences, I’m not saying Libertarians should feel at home in the Democratic Party, but Libertarians that don’t vote a Libertarian ticket should have a hard time deciding between Obama and McCain, especially on the war and personal liberties.

  • amiga

    “McCain should also stress the need for party unity, and the fact that whatever differences he and Paul may have, the real threat comes from the statist/socialist left and its takeover of the Democratic Party…”

    Simply put, if McCain is the nominee, it would not be possible to vote Republican in the Presidential race; there’d be no Republican running. “My Party, right or wrong” (pace G K Chesterson) is like saying “My Mother, drunk or sober.”

    I have given this scenario a great deal of thought. I agree that’s it’s most likely Obama vs McCain. Some choice; I could not in good conscience vote for either. However, considering only the good of the country, I think Obama would probably do less damage overall than McCain, since (among other things) I think Obama would be less effective at putting together his agenda. Given that their positions are essentially identical: McCain hints at appointing strict constructionist justices, but how about the Gang of 14? McCain has an F- rating by Gun Owners of America, even worse than Obama’s F rating. Taxes? McCain voted against the tax cuts; now claims he’s for making them permanent; maybe, but that’s mainly dependent on Congress in any case. Immigration? [NumbersUSA] McCain D, Obama D- ; it’s hard to accept McCain “seeing the light” considering his history in Arizona and the McCain-Kennedy amnesty attempt. Iraq/Iran? I’m not terribly comfortable with another 100 years. Economics? “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should,” says McCain (not that Obama is likely to be any better). Freedom? McCain finds no fault with the Patriot Act, other than that it doesn’t go far enough. McCain’s a CFR member; Obama is not (though Michelle is apparently peripherally involved in Chicago). It is most fortunate, in any case, that the Presidency is still not a monarchy, and the President is largely limited in the havoc he can wreak.

    Two factors come into play here. First, as mentioned above, the Presidency is limited in its power; Congress still makes the laws, although the President certainly influences Congress in the direction of his agenda. Second, and here’s the problem: given that McCain and Obama are likely to have similar agendas, the Democrats in Congress will go along and support McCain on most things, _as will the Republicans_, since they will support ‘their President’. The only opposition to any of the bad stuff that I can see is that the Congressional Republicans (at least those that haven’t already sold out to the left) might be inclined to resist those same programs coming from a Democrat President.

    All things considered, this is the most depressing Presidential contest I’ve witnessed since following Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956 and casting my first Presidential vote in 1964 for Barry Goldwater.

    -regards, Jim

  • JP

    You’re smoking crack if you think McCain will ever swallow his pride enough to rebuild the bridges he burned with Dr. Paul during the debates. Dr. Paul has said repeatedly that he would not endorse McCain based on “political favors” but rather only if McCain changes his tune about spending, the war, taxes, etc. You really don’t know a thing about Ron Paul do you?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    This article sounds more like wishful thinking than reality. McCain can win without Ron Paul. It’s a good thing too, because some of Ron Paul’s ideas are insane and it will be a sad day if they ever become mainstream. I respect the principled nature of him and his supporters, and some of their policies would be great, but others are just delusional and would lead to economic collapse. They’re just not realistic.

  • JP

    “Ron Paul is an egomaniac”.

    ROFL! What does that make “Im a POW war hero that married into a beer fortune and ran for president twice with my wife’s money” McCain?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    Also, does Ron Paul have some kind of watchdog team that scans the internet for articles mentioning him?

  • JP

    “Also, does Ron Paul have some kind of watchdog team that scans the internet for articles mentioning him?”

    No, you are thinking of the Israeli’s and their Megaphone software. We just know how to set up Yahoo news alerts.

  • Clavos

    Also, does Ron Paul have some kind of watchdog team that scans the internet for articles mentioning him?

    I’ve been convinced for months that the RP campaign team has software that does so; the Paulbots show up here within minutes of publication of an article referring to him.

  • john Libertis

    The guy who wrote this article is a McCain supporter who probably never liked Ron Paul at any time in the past. Now, however, the writer is afraid that Paul supporters are not going to vote for McCain and that this will help Obama win the election.
    He should be very afraid. Paul supporters will never vote for McCain. He is a neo-conservative, a war-monger and a neo-nazi. It’s better that all republicans are defeated this year so that we can take back our party. Sweep them all out! Anyway, Obama’s views are closer to Paul’s than are those of McCain.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Well Dave, you’ve finally swallowed the Big red Pill, haven’t you? How totally disappointing you have become! I’m ashamed to say we even live in the same city!

    I think you’ve confused me with someone else. I live in Austin, not Houston.

    I don’t really even know why I’m suprised by this suggestion, it hasn’t been all that long ago that you were chastising RP’s supporters for chasing Sean Hannity thru the snow and ice covered streets of New Hampshire, saying that “We would be the cause of RP’s failed campaign”, that if “they didn’t learn how not to get mad at the likes of” … whatever that little cutie, rosie cheeked, nat’l polling expert’s name was … you know… the one who screwed up and planted the same “man off the street, unbiased voter” in two consective primary’s … Frank something or another. You know who I’m talking about…. as if we din’t have good damned reason to be pissed off and out for blood.

    Yep. Definitely confused me with someone else. I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about here.

    And now… from that same mouth you have the unmitigated gall to suggest that RP supporters would even consider getting into bed with these imposters??? You should be ashamed.

    You may be right. I may be giving Paul supporters too much credit. I’m hoping that they’re more interested in advancing an agenda of liberty and reform than they are at standing firm on the crazy Bircher fanaticism which they will have to abandon if they want to make any progress.

    i think you know, deep down, what each and every one of us plans to do come November if Ron Paul’s name isn’t printed on the Ballot.

    What, write Ron Paul in? There’s no provision for write-in votes on a presidential ballot. They’ll just be thrown out.

    Dave

  • Russ

    Dave has declared: The ‘war’ in Iraq is long over.

    I am happy we can now relieve our servicemen of the grievous task of having to knock on the doors of American families to report that their sons and daughters have been lost in battle. Instead, we can have YOU, Dave, approach those families and inform them that the war has long since ended and they needn’t worry…it DIDN’T HAPPEN.

    You will, of course, also open your checkbook to cover the $341.4 million per day cost of this…uhh… conflict.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    On many issues Libertarians are actually closer to Democrats than Republicans.

    Only if you grossly misrepresent the real beliefs of the Democratic party while ignoring most of their agenda.

    1) Both against Waging illegal wars.

    As are Republicans. Yet there is a reasonable argument that the War in Iraq was not illegal. Plus Democrats certainly carried on their share of illegal wars. Gulf of Tonkin ring any bells?

    2) Both against an overeaching foreign policy that gets us involved in places we shouldn’t be without allies.

    A Republican mainstay and totally not part of Democrat platforms until the last few years. Remember Bill Clinton intervening everywhere? That’s more typical of the Democrats.

    3) Both against fiscal irresponsbility. (On spending Republicans are no better than Democrats, McCain has not given any substantial account of how he will cut the budget – the 100 billion in earmarks figure is bogus – he has proposed cutting taxes but not where the money will come from which IMO should be the far more important part to both Republicans and Democrats).

    Historically the Republicans HAVE cut the budget while Democrats generally have not. Bush has actually been remarkably successful at keeping the budget trimmed down if you set aside the expense of the war.

    4) Both against infringements of our personal liberties such as those found in the PATRIOT act.

    Which a majority of Democrats in both houses of Congress voted for – most of them more than once.

    Sure there are other huge differences, I’m not saying Libertarians should feel at home in the Democratic Party, but Libertarians that don’t vote a Libertarian ticket should have a hard time deciding between Obama and McCain, especially on the war and personal liberties.

    I suppose if you gave them LSD they could get that confused. The choice between a moderate libertarian like McCain and a full-blown socialist like Obama ought to be pretty easy for them.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The guy who wrote this article is a McCain supporter who probably never liked Ron Paul at any time in the past. Now, however, the writer is afraid that Paul supporters are not going to vote for McCain and that this will help Obama win the election.

    I’ve worked on dozens of libertarian campaigns, voted libertarian in almost every election, was a paid employee of the LP, voted for Paul in 88, voted for him again this year, and ran for office as a Libertarian in 2002.

    I’m as libertarian as you can get, but unlike the fanatical Paul supporters I want to actually accomplish something. I want to see the GOP reformed and made more libertarian rather than pursuing a campaign of harassment which is going to result in a backlash which will drive the GOP into the arms of the religious right.

    Dave

  • STM

    “So clearly McCain has very little respect for the Congressman from Texas”.

    Ah, so Ron Paul is from Texas.

    Now it all makes sense.

  • STM

    Dave: “a full-blown socialist like Obama”.

    Clearly, Dave, you have no genuine concept of what constitutes a full-blown socialist.

    He just seems slightly left of centre to me.

    Of course, in some parts of America that’d be enough to have him declared as “one o’ them reds”.

  • Judy

    When asked which Democrat he would want to run against in the fall, McCain said “Ron Paul”.

    Hey McCain, LICK EM.

    Dave: “What, write Ron Paul in? There’s no provision for write-in votes on a presidential ballot. They’ll just be thrown out.”

    Hey Dave, LICK EM.

    Why exactly should we care if someone has to read it than throw it out? It’s not like any of us had a delusion that our vote counted anyways. Do you?!

    A first term senator with no record of accomplishment has a snow balls chance in hell of winning the presidency, yet is about to. You know it wasn’t grassroots. This election is rigged and there isn’t much point in participating anyways. You can’t stop it. Believe it or not, only Hitlary can. She is turning out to be the monkey-wrench in their plans. Who saw that coming?

    Go Hitlary!

  • STM

    Come on Judy, it’s fine to be cynical when it comes to governments and politicians and lawmakers, but how is this election rigged?

    There’s no evidence of that at all, even empirical evidence.

    It seems just like any other ground-out US presidential campaign, but with dud candidates all round (there’s usually one OK one) so that when it comes to the voting, it’s damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.

    I will say this though: Obama’s unlikely rise to the point where he might end up as president of the US dovetails nicely with kinds of things your parents always told you, in this case like “anyone can become president of the United States”.

    Whether that’s neccessarily a good thing is another matter, but it’s happening.

    You should think yourselves lucky, though. We currently have a Prime Minister who during the election campaign claimed as a boy to have lived in a car with his mother after a landlord booted his family off the farm when his dad died.

    In which case, he should be well placed to get the price of petrol down, but seems unable or unwilling to do so.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    There’s no evidence of that at all, even empirical evidence.

    Like so many of the Ron Paul supporters, Judy has the Bircher mental disease. She thinks everything is a conspiracy regardless of whether there is any evidence at all.

    Dave

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I don’t care if the Democrats nominate Hitler”

    He was born in Austria, so I don’t think they can technically do that.

  • george

    You know, putting ear rings and makeup on a pig doesn’t make a bit of difference. It’s still a pig…

    Ron Paul is the only candidate with integrity and honesty that could truly make a difference in America.

  • Ruvy

    even if Paul made his most angry, anti-establishment speech, that would still reflect positively on McCain and the party in general.

    Dave, Paul’s most angry anti-establishment speech would be a denunciation of the CFR – which George Bush, and a host of other big shits shots in the Republican party belong to. That’s why the media sidelined him in the first place. They didn’t want the little feisty terrier pulling the curtain on the phony professor pulling the strings behind the mighty GOP (and Democratic Party) mirage.

    Then there are all those nice folks from the KKK and the Nazis who support Paul, all those lovely little economics pamphlets that Paul authored, all that anti-Israel stuff that the Obama folks will pull out like rabbits in the hat.

    Are you sure about reaching out to Paul? I’d let him slink back to his congressional district in Texas and into obscurity, if I were McCain. There has got to be somebody better – like Tim Pawlenty, Kinky Friedman or even Jesse Ventura.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ron Paul is the only candidate with integrity and honesty that could truly make a difference in America.

    Wow, then the people living in your America are screwed. Or wait, is he going to be on the ballot there, unlike here?

    Face it. Even Paul has feet of clay. They make him unelectable and they’ll keep him off the ballot. That being the case, I still think we should try to get the best leadership we can for the next 4 or 8 years.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Paul’s most angry anti-establishment speech would be a denunciation of the CFR – which George Bush, and a host of other big shits shots in the Republican party belong to.

    It would certainly be a test to see whether Paul could control the craziness long enough to accomplish something positive. As for the CFR, the strings they pull aren’t all that strong and they are hardly the monolithic conspiratorial institution you and Paul make them out to be. I’ve known several members and they have to a man been among the most honest, pro-American and pro-freedom people I’ve known.

    Dave

  • http://www.johnmccainforum.com Angela TC

    You’re a funny guy. I’m not a libertarian, I am a Conservative and a Republican. Endless war is a deal breaker, as is amnesty, as is McCain’s bipartisanship approach to appointing judges, as is….anyway, you get the picture.

    Powerful or not, the CFR has an agenda that would undermine US sovereignty. We don’t need them. We have enough bureaucrats in-house, thanks.

  • Paul Lucero

    Yeah! McCain . Sorry The harsh fact is McCain is the Chairman MAO of the GOP. Would GoldWater want or care that Mao offer him a olive branch. I know you’re trying to help but YOU ARE NOT HELPING!!!!

    McCain is a Disease. It is called the “Lesser of Two Evils”. This disease is killing America over the past 50 years and it must be cut out from the body politic NOW! I know that in Nevada McCain Lost all the delegates (31) that is why they stopped the convention. DID you know that?

    America is suffering the fruits of McCain’s Senate efforts over the past twenty years. Dollar inflation, higher Gas, heating, food and medical costs.

    THE GOP GOT 3 million new followers of Paul not 1 million and what did they do invite the 1 million that joined the party in? Not the old grayed wimps they called the police and kicked them out!!! Screw the old guard and especially McCain.

  • Brad Schader

    If the main point of a McCain presidency is to set up the 2012 Republican candidate (my personal belief) then Ron Paul is not the wise choice. Ron Paul is older than McCain. McCain was born August 29, 1936 while Ron Paul was born August 20, 1935. I am sorry, but age is a factor in this race. If McCain is too old to serve, then a man older than McCain is logically too old as well. That and, while I do like some of Ron Paul’s ideas, I feel the ones I oppose are so strong that they outweigh those I do support. Dave, this is a bad idea all around IMHO.

  • ricknhouston

    #24 — May 28, 2008 @ 02:18AM — pleasexcusetheinterruption
    Also, does Ron Paul have some kind of watchdog team that scans the internet for articles mentioning him?

    ****************************************************************************************************

    Hehehehe! As my old granny used to say …”Girl, you shot your wad on that one! ..” …That is the stupidest thing I’ve heard come out of a neo-con Republicrats mouth , … er, keyboard, in months!!!

    Hey …. try you tube! It does all kinds of neat stuff like that! … Duh!

  • ricknhouston

    #26 — May 28, 2008 @ 02:27AM — Clavos
    Also, does Ron Paul have some kind of watchdog team that scans the internet for articles mentioning him?

    I’ve been convinced for months that the RP campaign team has software that does so; the Paulbots show up here within minutes of publication of an article referring to him.

    **********************************************

    Nice crowd of “net savvy followers, you got here, Nalle! They really stay up on all the lastest

  • ricknhouston

    #35 — May 28, 2008 @ 05:02AM — STM
    Come on Judy, it’s fine to be cynical when it comes to governments and politicians and lawmakers, but how is this election rigged?

    There’s no evidence of that at all, even empirical evidence.

    **************************************************
    Ok…! Tell me true! Are you really Nalle in drag?

    No evidence that the election is rigged ??? Hold on … I have to vomit! Geeeze, where could I begin ??? You know what ??? on second thought I think I’m just gonna let you wallow in your stupidity for a day or two!!! The media and the Nat’l party’s are as corrupt as they can get and the whole freakin world knows it … everybody cept you and Nalle, obviously !

  • Daveforliberty

    You said John McCain’s position is “closer to a truly libertarian position than any Republican presidential candidate since Barry Goldwater.”

    I blew coffee out of my nose when I read that. You’re funny! Your satire is right up there with Dave Barry.

  • Irene Wagner

    McCain is going to have to start reaching out to McCain “supporters” soon. If he can’t whip up enthusiasm for himself among the “Following the Party’s Marching Orders,” he has little hope of generating it anywhere else–especially not among Ron Paul supporters.

    Comparing numbers of political yard signs, bumper stickers…um…tattoos….isn’t a scientific method of guaging the relative popularity of candidates, especially when Ron Paul supporters are part of the equation. But the complete ABSENCE of same has to be telling us something.

    I live in a certain very red state (where, incidentally, Ron Paul took 24% of the primary vote away from the presumptive Republican candidate last night.) I’ve been seeing “Obama” yard signs and bumper stickers under Idaho plates for months now—in a very red state, mind you. Zero bumper stickers, zero yard signs, for McCain. Not a one—not even on the walls at the Primary Election Party last night in Boise.

  • ricknhouston

    #47 — May 28, 2008 @ 10:46AM — Brad Schader
    If the main point of a McCain presidency is to set up the 2012 Republican candidate (my personal belief) then Ron Paul is not the wise choice. Ron Paul is older than McCain. McCain was born August 29, 1936 while Ron Paul was born August 20, 1935. I am sorry, but age is a factor in this race. If McCain is too old to serve, then a man older than McCain is logically too old as well. That and, while I do like some of Ron Paul’s ideas, I feel the ones I oppose are so strong that they outweigh those I do support. Dave, this is a bad idea all around IMHO.

    Then stick around Brad, my boy Cuz thats exactly what this is all about! These idiots still think this is about getting RP in the Whitehouse …
    HELLOOOOOOOO !!! This is NOT ABOUT RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT ….!!!!! THIS IS ABOUT RON PAUL”S PHILOSOPHY OF GOVERNMENT!!!!

    As my good buddy Bobby Dylan has said, time and time again ,,,, “Oh the times, they are a ‘changin!”

  • ricknhouston

    #41 — May 28, 2008 @ 09:35AM — Dave Nalle [URL]
    Paul’s most angry anti-establishment speech would be a denunciation of the CFR – which George Bush, and a host of other big shits shots in the Republican party belong to.

    It would certainly be a test to see whether Paul could control the craziness long enough to accomplish something positive. As for the CFR, the strings they pull aren’t all that strong and they are hardly the monolithic conspiratorial institution you and Paul make them out to be. I’ve known several members and they have to a man been among the most honest, pro-American and pro-freedom people I’ve known.

    Dave

    ************************************************
    Riiped your britches that time Nalle…

    Here’s a prime example of “the most honest, pro-American and pro-freedom people you’ve known … like DICK CHENEY ….. hahahahahaha!

  • McInsane

    “McCain can win without Ron Paul. It’s a good thing too, because some of Ron Paul’s ideas are insane and it will be a sad day if they ever become mainstream.”

    Yeah, all this Constitution stuff and talking about the Founding Fathers is crazzzzzzzzzy!

  • Dennis

    I’m optimistic that Americans are waking up. McCain will get the nomination but what costs? He’s a sell out, always has been and always will be. I’m a fan of freedom, what little spark is left anyway.

  • Irene Wagner

    Why would Ron Paul be seduced by the advances of the neoconservatives and their champion McCain, when the realistic near-term goals of his rEVOLution are being accomplished right before his eyes?

    When you start looking at politics at the state level, you see conservative, truly conservative Republicans (NOT neo-conservatives) who actually ARE reaching out to the supporters of Ron Paul’s principles, and vice verse. By “conservative” I mean conservative with respect to economics and foreign policy. People all across the spectrum on social issues are learning to work together to restore sanity to the spending and taxing patterns of government at all levels. Abortion and Civil Unions is to 2008 politics what Abolition was to politics in 1776. The patriots managed to accomplish quite a bit together, differences on social issues notwithstanding, and so it will be.

    It’s such delicious irony, the twitching and squirming of the Belt Way Neoconservatives in the Republican Party, frantic because “their” Party is being “infiltrated by those Ron Paul people.”

  • kipple

    Russ wrote:

    “Dave has declared: The ‘war’ in Iraq is long over.

    I am happy we can now relieve our servicemen of the grievous task of having to knock on the doors of American families to report that their sons and daughters have been lost in battle. Instead, we can have YOU, Dave, approach those families and inform them that the war has long since ended and they needn’t worry…it DIDN’T HAPPEN.

    You will, of course, also open your checkbook to cover the $341.4 million per day cost of this…uhh… conflict.”

    Nalle will never put his money where his mouth is.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    STM: Clearly, Dave, you have no genuine concept of what constitutes a full-blown socialist.

    Dave, having once upon a time lived in the USSR, knows perfectly well what a socialist is, and also knows perfectly well that Obama isn’t one. He just hopes that if he and others of his ilk repeat it often enough, even Obama might start to believe it himself…

  • Ruvy

    Looks like you stepped in it this time, Dave. I’d give you a towel to wipe off your shoes, but it’s a third of a world away here in Liberated Samaria. I’m good but I can’t reach all the way to Austin.

    But I’ll do you one better. I’ll tell you what Larry Franklin (yes, that Larry Franklin) told me over breakfast in a Fordham Road Restaurant 34 years ago.

    “You have a fertile mind. One of these days you will come up with a very good idea.”

    Today wasn’t that day.

  • Brad from TX

    I have never seen a blogger that commented on his own article more than public that reads it. Makes you really want to take political advise from a writer who makes his living designing fonts. lol

  • Irene Wagner

    Dave Nalle, after all this, you need some comic relief.

  • Lumpy

    I think this comment thread is evidence that the Paulbots are even crazier and more desperate thqn they were a few weeks ago. Maybe reality is starting to set in and they’ve had to put their reality distortion devices on ‘maximum fantasy’ just to survive.

    Someone earlier said that their goal was now to take over the republican agenda. what they seem to not get is that the best and fastest way to do that is to win McCain over to their side.

  • Baronius

    Not forgiving McCain because he didn’t respect Paul during a debate?!?

    What is going on with these people? It’s the same phenomenon that Doug wrote about in the “Church of Hillary”. If your primary candidate loses, sabotage the winner in the general election. It’s his fault. It’s sexism. It’s the MSM. It’s the CFR. It’s Chinatown.

    If your candidate loses, you choose the next best candidate. You don’t retaliate as if politics is no more important than kickball. I can sympathize with the Paul people more than the Clinton people, because Paul and McCain have some different positions. But it seems personal for the Paulers.

  • Lumpy

    I think this comment thread is evidence that the Paulbots are even crazier and more desperate thqn they were a few weeks ago. Maybe reality is starting to set in and they’ve had to put their reality distortion devices on ‘maximum fantasy’ just to survive.

    Someone earlier said that their goal was now to take over the republican agenda. what they seem to not get is that the best and fastest way to do that is to win McCain over to their side.

  • Mark in Illinois

    That was one of the funniest opinion pieces I’ve seen in awhile. Thanks for the laugh, Dave!

  • Jean

    Well, this has been fun to read, Dave or those of his twisted minded ilk have called Ron Pauls Ideas Crazy, Freedom of speech, crazy?? 2nd amendment crazy??, an Honest money system where the Federal reserve cannot dilute the value of your money is crazy?? Non interventionism in foreign wars on behalf of Israel is crazy?? Not allowing our boys to die in undeclared wars is crazy??Actually being able to keep the money you earn for your self is crazy?? Opposing songbird McCain, Warmonger extraordinair is crazy??? Just who really is crazy. Not the Paulites. Anyone that would vote for the same crap that we have had for the last 50 years is what is crazy. Yep, thats you Dave. Of course it could be called pure unadulterated stupidity but I am to polite to point that out.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Here’s a prime example of “the most honest, pro-American and pro-freedom people you’ve known … like DICK CHENEY ….. hahahahahaha!

    When did I say that I ‘know’ Dick Cheney? I’m talking about people I’ve known – you know, sat down at dinner with them, had conversations, etc. Like any large group the CFR has a diverse membership. It does have a couple of crazy evil bastards among its members, and based on their ideas the whole organization has been damned by the Birchers and the Paul followers have picked that up. All I say is consider the source.

    Why would Ron Paul be seduced by the advances of the neoconservatives and their champion McCain,

    McCain is unquestionably not a neocon. He has never supported them or been associated by them or even been endorsed by them. He’s a traditional pro-military Republican which is a very different thing.

    I am happy we can now relieve our servicemen of the grievous task of having to knock on the doors of American families to report that their sons and daughters have been lost in battle. Instead, we can have YOU, Dave, approach those families and inform them that the war has long since ended and they needn’t worry…it DIDN’T HAPPEN.

    You think that American servicemen only get killed in active war zones? Actual warfare as such ended in Iraq more than 4 years ago. Since then we’ve been involved in what is basically a police action. That still costs money and lives.

    Nalle will never put his money where his mouth is.

    Unlike most Ron Paul supporters who seem to work odd jobs for cash or are barristas at Starbucks, I actually run a small business and pay rapacious taxes which go to support the outrageous spending of this government. So my opposition to dragging out our involvement in Iraq has a sound financial basis.

    Dave, having once upon a time lived in the USSR, knows perfectly well what a socialist is, and also knows perfectly well that Obama isn’t one. He just hopes that if he and others of his ilk repeat it often enough, even Obama might start to believe it himself…

    Actually, what we lived with in the Soviet Union was marxist authoritarianism with most of the real socialism suppressed. They were even opposed to collectivism and had turned the unions into political arms of the state. When I call Obama a socialist, it is in the American context, where his beliefs and proposed policies involve addressing the greatest good for the greatest number and neglect to consider the needs and liberty of individuals.

    Dave

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    As are Republicans. Yet there is a reasonable argument that the War in Iraq was not illegal. Plus Democrats certainly carried on their share of illegal wars. Gulf of Tonkin ring any bells?

    I wasn’t speaking historically, I was talking about today, which is obviously more relevant unless we’re studying the political history of America.

    A Republican mainstay and totally not part of Democrat platforms until the last few years. Remember Bill Clinton intervening everywhere? That’s more typical of the Democrats.

    Again, which is more relevant to voting in 2008? The current democratic platform or the democratic platform 10, 20, 40 years ago? Plus Bill Clinton never started a large scale war anywhere, a tad more cautious than your typical neocon.

    Historically the Republicans HAVE cut the budget while Democrats generally have not. Bush has actually been remarkably successful at keeping the budget trimmed down if you set aside the expense of the war.

    And why would we want to set aside the war? What arbitrary distinction is this? And he hasn’t cut the rest of the budget. The budget has grown from 2.0 trillion to 3.8 trillion in 8 years. Only about 1/4 of the 1.8 trillion is for the annual war expenses.

    Which a majority of Democrats in both houses of Congress voted for – most of them more than once.

    No doubt. But at least fewer voted for it in subsequent rounds and more expressed reservations.

    I’m not actually arguing Ron Paul supporters have a lot in common with democrats, but on certain issues like the war, they agree.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    Im sorry I got the budget numbers wrong .. 1.9 trillion to 3.1 trillion (00-08).. only a 1.2 trillion increase.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    Hehehehe! As my old granny used to say …”Girl, you shot your wad on that one! ..” …That is the stupidest thing I’ve heard come out of a neo-con Republicrats mouth , … er, keyboard, in months!!!

    Hey …. try you tube! It does all kinds of neat stuff like that! … Duh!

    Hey take it easy bud. I don’t actually think that Ron Paul has a team scouring the internet, but it is pretty funny how quickly they all arrived here when Dave posted the article. You people are insane.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    No evidence that the election is rigged ??? Hold on … I have to vomit! Geeeze, where could I begin ??? You know what ??? on second thought I think I’m just gonna let you wallow in your stupidity for a day or two!!! The media and the Nat’l party’s are as corrupt as they can get and the whole freakin world knows it … everybody cept you and Nalle, obviously !

    Evidence? None. Pure conjecture. Believe it or not, 10s of millions of people this fall will go out and vote for McCain and Obama completely of their own volition.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    Yeah, all this Constitution stuff and talking about the Founding Fathers is crazzzzzzzzzy!

    Yeah actually it is. Unless you believe the founding fathers knew exactly what would be best for this nation (which has 37 more states now than then) 250 years in advance. They must have been psychic! Divine!

    Also, while we’re at it, why don’t we give back all of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, California, Utah and Nevada as this land was seized illegally from Mexico in the middle of the 19th century.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    while we’re at it, why don’t we give back all of Texas…

    Fantastic idea. Suddenly, Ron Paul becomes a diputado in the Mexican Congress…

    :-D

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    When I call Obama a socialist, it is in the American context…

    Dear me, and here was I thinking socialism was an international movement. Your distinction does nothing except demonstrate the very rightward skew of American politics in general.

    Nevertheless, there are socialists in the US, and this is what they look like. Not exactly the sentiments you’ll hear Obama expounding.

  • WK

    Hey Dave- what you are describing is political prostitution, right? Is that what Washington and politics is all about? Really? Kiss,kiss, I love you Ron Paul, and please leave your money and supporters on the night stand when you leave? Idealogue? Self-righteous? Reality? Do you have kids Dave? Is this what you espouse to your little ones while they’re eating their Rice Krispies? Mediocrity sold as reality? “D’s” and “F’s” are acceptable reality? Idealogy is passe? Wow! That’s really very dangerous thinking… Ideology is the only thing which will bail our butts out of this mess…I am going to assume that you wrote this piece to light us up, right Dave? I hope so, because I can’t imagine you really believe it. How about “Political Ethics Czar” for the entire Beltway, with the express power to hire and fire anyone elected or appointed following an internet poll of constituents? Ron Paul could be the Ralph Nader of Washington, DC. Now THAT would be a good job!!! You’re FIRED!!!!!

  • aksmith

    Dave – You’ve completely lost what was left of your mind. From the first paragraph, where your description of McCain defies reality, to the very end, where your scenario that being given a speaking spot at a convention nobody will see, and a cabinet position that will accomplish nothing should salve Paul and his supporters is, to say the least, insane.

    How better to reach out to a man who wants to cut government back to the bone than to create a new cabinet department for him? You are precious. In the way old doddering fools and disabled puppies are precious.

  • Bennett

    “there are socialists in the US, and this is what they look like.”

    Ouch! Too much Red!

  • John

    “if your candidate loses, you choose the next best candidate. You don’t retaliate as if politics is no more important than kickball. I can sympathize with the Paul people more than the Clinton people, because Paul and McCain have some different positions. But it seems personal for the Paulers.”

    Yea. It is personal. Damn right it is personal. If it wasn’t personal, why is it you are voting then? ha? BTW, the next best person out there seems to be Obama and not McCain. so don’t take it personally that I didn’t pick your warmonger to be the next best. In fact, he is dead last even after Nader.

  • Lumpy

    I just do not understand these antiwar Paulbots like John who think Obama is a solution. Obama has said he sees no clear way to leave Iraq quickly and that he would consider using the military against Iran and invading Pakistan. That’s your peace candidate? Give me a break.

  • marm1890

    Sorry, but if he did try to reach out to us, he will be reaching in vain. We will never be receptive to McCain. Nor Obama, nor Clinton. It will be a Libertarian or Constitutional Party candidate who will get my vote. It is time to throw BOTH parties under the bus, and get REAL change.

  • http://constitution.freeblogit.com David

    I agree that John McCain needs to be ready to extend a hand to Ron Paul and his supporters but Congressman Paul’s Paulimaniacs need to be ready to take the hand if it is offered. The problem is, as is illustrated by the comments that your article has recieved, that the Paulimanics are not ready to take the hand. They would rather repeat the 1992 election and hand over the country to a president who will agree with them on nothing than support a candidate that would at least support some of their ideas. They are in the box towards John McCain, seeing him as a stumbling block rather than a person. There was another candidate with th intials R.P. and he handed us eight years of Bill Clinton. Is that what we want for another eight years?

  • Clavos

    Fantastic idea. Suddenly, Ron Paul becomes a diputado in the Mexican Congress…

    Muchas gracias, Doctor, pero mejor no…

  • getusoutoftheun

    Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. Bush/Cheney, the Clintons, Obama, McCain they are all members of the corrupt Council on Foreign Relations created by the same men that own the Federal Reserve Bank.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    There was another candidate with th intials R.P. and he handed us eight years of Bill Clinton. Is that what we want for another eight years?

    Yeah I know those 8 years were so miserable!!! Personally, I suffered from depression from 1992-2000. When I woke up in Nov 2000, I was cured! Economic prosperity really sucks.

  • pleasexcuetheinterruption

    Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil. Bush/Cheney, the Clintons, Obama, McCain they are all members of the corrupt Council on Foreign Relations created by the same men that own the Federal Reserve Bank.

    What is it with you people and the CFR? They sound really evil to me, right now the main article on their homepage is about solving the global food crisis! Communist pigdogs!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Commenter # 81:

    Where’s Theun? It’s in Switzerland, isn’t it? I think I’ve been there. Not a bad little town. Sure, it’s a bit dull, especially on a Sunday night when all the bars are closed, but you really shouldn’t need help getting out of it. Just catch a train. Connect in Lausanne for an express to Zurich, and from there you can jump on a plane to anywhere that takes your fancy.

    You’re welcome!

  • Danny

    I will write in Ron Paul’s name. It felt great to vote for him in the primary. It will feel good in the fall. What won’t feel good is the next four years with whoever we have but it won’t matter. McCain, Obama, or Clinton. Close your eyes mask the voices they all sound the same.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav @ #80:

    That’s too bad. By any chance, reciprocally, can you think of any of your blokes who could make a go of the Casa Blanca en el Ciudad de Lavar? No-one seems too impressed with the choices on offer this side of the border.

  • Clavos

    By any chance, reciprocally, can you think of any of your blokes who could make a go of the Casa Blanca en el Ciudad de Lavar?

    ¡Hijole! Ees tempting, Doctor, ees tempting…hmm. Let me theenk…

    ¡Orale! ¿How about thees guy?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    ¡Olé! El hombre perfecto por la job.

    Caramba… a man who can espeak and esmoke pipe while wearing balaclava… also he able to give great political espeech using wife’s grocery list as inspiración! These theengs your Meester Jorge del Bosque, he no can do. El Señor Marcos, he clearly possess el multitasking eskills necesário por executar faithfully el oficio del Presidente dos Estados Unidos Nortemexicanos!

    ¡Vota Marcos!

  • Chris Bieber

    the real threat comes from the statist/socialist left and its takeover of the Republican Party, a threat which many McCain supporters refuse to see…being as they are it.

    The deliberate call for pandering with qualified and conditioned terms ala Paris in 1940 will not fly with Congressman Paul and the over a MILLION of Republican voters that refused to toe the Party Line and follow orters to support the Madman Crimean War veteran and endemic militarist and imperialist.

    The condescending tone and delevery of this article is as redolent and faux as FauxNews and the GOP Junta………

    You all conservative patriots can march in unison to rallys at the Convention/Stadium with jets and tanks and oompah bands for the Little General..er Admiral….to practice for YOUR eager MANDATORY service fighting terror and finding WMDs in UNCONSTITUTIONALLY invaded and Sovietlike occupied Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan or Iran.

    Thats if the Madman can defeat the Marxist or the Harpy and the imminanent crushing tsunami in November – which is well deservered…but not by the rest of us Americans.

  • STM

    “the real threat comes from the statist/socialist left and its takeover of the Republican Party”.

    Yeah, right, of course. I should have realised. I mean, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work this out.

    Look at how they’re backing universal health care and the imposition of higher and fairer taxes on corporations and the rich to even out the current unfair distribution of wealth in the United States.

    And that’s just for starters.

    I hear they’re also organising red-banner May Day labour marches through Washington, raising the minimum wage to something people can actually live on, and demanding that all workplaces are unionised to better protect the interests of workers over those of greedy bosses.

    Oh look … a nice pig just flew past my fifth-floor window.

  • STM

    Clav and DD:: “¡Hijole! Ees tempting, Doctor, ees tempting…hmm. Let me theenk…”¡Olé! El hombre perfecto por la job …. Caramba, etc”

    Boys, that was all rather a hoot. Bit bored, are we??

  • http://www.ronpaulforpresident2008.com JamesM

    Ron Paul supporters are not going to back McCain and are certainly not going to fall into political history as a footnote. They have turned into a movement that will long outlive this little election. Regardless of how much you may support McCain I still remember that little ship fire he created on the USS Forrestal when he wanted to show off and wet started his fighter which ended up killing more US navy personal then any other ship fire in US history. His daddy the admiral pulled him off the ship before the gunsight was placed over his heart for that little mishap.

    Regardless of my -minor- personal reason for not voting for McCain, he has already proven to lie just as much as Bush over the past year. Take a look at youtube videos of his constant flip/flopping and outright lies.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Bomb-bomb-bomb Iran”

    It’s true that 25-30 years ago people like you would have gladly supported such a strike when Islamo-fascism started rearing its ugly head in the late 70s after the Shah was deposed and fundamentalist nutjobs like the Ayatollah started his “death to America!” rallies.

    I know, I was around then and remember quite clearly the lack of love for Iran.

    Now that Middle East policy is in the hands of a despised GOP, suddenly your heart bleeds for the very people that want to kill Americans and Israelis.

    Yes, the Israelis, that country with those people you think are the cause of all of this mess, right? if we just left israel to its own fate and withdraw from the Middle East like cowardly isolationists, then everything would be OK, right?

    Get this through your heads … Iran, Syria, and all those other rogue states will always hate us even if we bow down and kiss their feet every day for the next 1000 years.

    The only way they will leave us alone is if we swear allegiance to Allah.

    Is dhimmitude in YOUR future, my friend?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The Forrestal conspiracy BS which JamesM refers to is almost as creepy as the 9/11 conspiracy bull which I’m sure he also believes in. The Navy conducted a full investigation of the Forrestal incident, and not only was it impossible for McCain to have started the fire, he was arguably a hero for dragging someone else to safety when the fire started.

    It’s fine to oppose McCain based on his politics, but to spread lies about him which are so easily verified as false is just reprehensible.

    Dave

  • Ruvy

    David,

    Yes, the Israelis, that country with those people you think are the cause of all of this mess, right? if we just left Israel to its own fate and withdraw from the Middle East like cowardly isolationists, then everything would be OK, right?

    If only the loud-mouthed snatch heading up the State Department (and the majority of top level State Department employees) felt as you do. If only George Bush felt as you do. If only McCain’s anti-Israel advisors (like James “fuck the Jews” Baker) felt the same way as you do. Americans, by and large, are a generous and good-hearted people. But you are ruled by an evil regime.

    The truth of the matter is that the last thing we in Israel need is some glad-handing liar in the White House like John McCain telling us what wonderful people we are as he cuts out throats; shaking our right hand with pro-Israel rhetoric while stabbing us in the back with his left, with anti-Israel actions (like training South Syrian Arabs sharpshooters in Jericho).

    We need to convince people here that the American administration is truly an enemy of the Jewish people – for indeed it is. This will allow those of us who are truly patriots in this land to accomplish a “rising of the shire” to get rid of American puppets like Barak, Netanyahu, Livni (Olmert may be on the way out, now) and Stan Fisher, and with G-d’s help, European puppets like Peres, Beilin and Mazuz.

    The best tool for this is an anti-Israel prick like Obama Barack, smeone who worships at the altar of other anti-Israel pricks like Jimmy Carter. No Israeli politician has any credibility now, but the reservists need to be convinced that these non-credible “power-holders” need to be removed violently – ditched and hung on butcher hooks, as was Mussolini decades ago.

    I know this sounds contradictory, but someone like Obama Barack in the White House, a man beholden to American Jewish traitors at J Street, and the terrorist connected CAIR “bears” is just the tool to help that happen.

    If your government leaves us to our own fate, and gets its soldiers, money and corrupting influence out of here, we can destroy Damascus with impunity and turn it into rubbble (cutting off the line of retreat for HizbAllah), as the Bible says it will be, starve the Gazan Arabs into submission (destroying Gaza if necessary – also fulfilling Biblical prophecy), and destroy Teheran and Qom, ending the threat from the revivified Iranian empire. That is why we need a “rising of the shire” – to get rid of the corrupting influence of the American regime.

    Blessings from Liberated Samaria,
    Ruvy

  • Lee Richards

    #94:
    You didn’t find spreading lies so reprehensible when you said a few weeks ago that Obama is an “active communist”.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Lee, you need to learn the difference between lies and truth. Take the ideological blinders off.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And the truth is whatever you say it is, eh, Dave?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The truth is the truth, Dr. D. I try to make sure that things which I say conform to it as much as possible.

    I understand that some of you don’t see the marxist influence in Obama – I find it incomprehensible, but I do understand the power of self-deception. Plus I assume you’ve never read one of his speeches or read his bio.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Some of the outright bullshit that some people put up in the comments section of this website absolutely amaze me some days.

    It couldn’t have been McCain that started the fire on the Forrestal. Everybody knows it was George W. Bush’s fault! Just like everything else!

    John McCain is an American hero, plain and simple.

    The LA Times tried to smear him because he gets $58K a year tax free for his military retirement. As far as I’m concerned, they should add a couple of zeros to the end of that number. We’ll call it per diem for his lengthy stay at the Hanoi Hilton.

    JamesM – you disgust me!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I try to make sure that things which I say conform to it as much as possible.

    Now that is a statement which reveals more about you than you probably intended!

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, except for those people who are still fighting the political battles of the 20th Century, politics has moved on.

    What was once a simplistic world of fairly clearly defined left and right politics has changed into a far muddier world where politicians on either side of the fairly notional divide can be found supporting ideas that once belonged firmly on the other side.

    It is no surprise therefore that you may have possibly detected some Marxist influence in Obama, although from this side of the pond it seems mighty dilute, even allowing for the bizarre nature of US politics.

    What is more important in contemporary politics is that politicians understand and are comfortable with the increasingly interwoven nature of the world, on political, commercial and social levels.

    Of the three US presidential hopefuls, it is Obama that appears to best get this, so if I were voting, he’s be the one I’d pick.

    One last point: “The truth is the truth, Dr. D. I try to make sure that things which I say conform to it as much as possible.” Give us a break will you, you’re one of the most subjective people I’ve ever come across, whilst continuously trying to persuade us you’re not. In that, you are never going to succeed!

  • Clavos

    Whether socialism as advocated and/or practiced in the US is “mild” or diluted compared to the socialism prevalent in the rest of the world is totally irrelevant and immaterial.

    What counts is that many AMERICANS find it anathema.

    So, while all you aliens find it innocuous, a lot of US don’t like it, and since we’re talking socialism in America, our opinion is the one that counts for US.

  • Lumpy

    If a book were written about Chris Rose’s understsnding of world politics it would have to be a comic book. Of course the companion volume on US politics would just have blank pages.

    As for qualifications in foreign policy most sane people (not Ron Paul supporters) see McCain’s membership in groups like the CFR as a sign of a certain level of knowledge in international affairs. He has also traveled extensively overseas as an adult. The fact that Obama is not in the CFR and seems uninterested in learning about the rest of the world first hand strikes me as a very bad sign.

  • Lee Richards

    Christopher Rose has done us the immense favor of outlining the election of 2008 as it really is:we either understand that mind-boggling change is happening to the world, accept that and change our thinking with it, or we continue to ignore, deny, and fight it, looking backward as we stumble.

    Science, technology, population growth, emerging nations, and environmental challenges are creating a new paradigm of civilization–and politics–that the world has never seen before. Along with unimaginable advances will come problems unsolvable by those who understand only how things used to be, are doctrinaire in their approach to every idea, and are frozen by 19th century thinking into doing nothing or doing the wrong thing, because it’s the Party line.

    Those who don’t see what’s happening–or don’t want to see it–continue to cling desperately to what they understand, or think they do. Belief in the efficacy of simplistic politics as usual over the next generation would be like using an abacus instead of a computer to launch a rocket.

    So, bicker about your “isms” and “ists”. Keep on telling yourself that Reagan was a saint and Roosevelt was the devil incarnate. Perhaps they were, yesterday.

    Tomorrow, it’s not going to matter one bit.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, “snatch”? You actually called a woman a “snatch”?

    I’ve never met a religious person who shows that kind of contempt for women. Even Islam feigns more respect for them than that. I can imagine calling a guy a “prick” (although I’m too much of a prude to do so). And if I were to use that word to describe a guy, Jimmy Carter seems as good a target as any. But I couldn’t imagine calling a woman a “snatch”.

  • Lumpy

    Let me get this straight, Lee. Your argument is that because the rest of the world is embraing a philosophy of oppression and totalitarianism we need to do the same and abandon our orinciples and best interests because…. And that’s where you lose me. .aybe you can explain the lemming mindset you recommend. I just don’t get it.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    “Let me get this straight”??!!?

    Lumpy my boy, you’ve got this about as straight as the road to Hana.

  • Irene Wagner

    Along with unimaginable advances will come problems unsolvable by those who understand only how things used to be… or by anyone else for that matter. Given the impossiblity of imagining solutions to problems attending unimaginable advances, we’re stuck with discussing the set of isms, ists, ians, ives and als currently available. There isn’t going to be a quantum leap from that current set to the new (and inevitable) configuration of battling isms, ists, ians, ives, and als in the world you forsee. Tomorrow’s configuration will be determined by the outcomes of statesmanship, diplomacy, elections, and wars today. The dominant philosophies will determine the reaction to any unimaginable advance or difficulty to be encountered in the future. I hope neoconservatism is not on the list. In the interest of pursuing that goal most efficiently…

    …”McCain is unquestionably not a neocon. He has never supported them or been associated by them or even been endorsed by them…”

    …I choose to continue discussing neoconservatism only with people for whom the possibility of telling the truth “as much as possible” is unhampered by an inability to recognize McCain’s foreign policy advisor William Kristol as a neoconservative associate–and I don’t mean golfing partner.

  • Lumpy

    Wow, when did Irving’s little boy Billy get hooked up with McCain? That sure shows some bad judgment from the melanoma king. I thought the neocons were thoroughly discredited by now.

  • Ruvy

    Baronius,

    I was attempting to be polite in describing a tool of a Jew-hating aristocracy that also happens to be impoverishing your nation. I could have used far nastier terms.

    Arab newspapers have been known to call her “nigger”. They don’t insult her womanhood openly, but it is still generally considered in the Arab world that any woman with authority is nothing but a whore. So, that goes without saying with respect to the readership. I’ll let you put those terms together to see what you get.

    In any event, Rice deserves all the contempt heaped on her. She is nothing but the servant girl of an aristocracy that would enslave her as fast as it would use her less than competent skills.

  • Irene Wagner

    Lumpy, I don’t know when this happened–apparently sometime between the declaration of his candidacy and October 2, 2007. Discredited? Sure, but Trotskyites/neoconservatives have a history of successfully disguising the same old philosophy with an appealing new name. And gee willlikers! Do I sound like I’m finding Commies all over the place….like a John Bircher or somethin’?

    *squints at Obama suspiciously*

    Don’t even suggest have anything more to do with us Paulites, Dave Nalle. We’re becoming a bad influence already.

  • Lee Richards

    No, Irene. YOU’RE stuck with discussing the set of “als” now available. Your choice.

    Some choose, some don’t know any better. We’re intelligent enough to innovate and move into the future with courage and determination, unless we choose to be ignorant or choose to ignore and hide from reality, out of fear or selfishness.

    Technology IS a quantum leap;it’s happened, it is happening now, it will happen tomorrow, to the nth degree. If our politics doesn’t experience a quantum leap of its own, its only other choice is to try to turn back the clock.

    Stasis means more serious problems in the short run, and the short run is all we’re likely have as a world leader.

  • Lumpy

    Irene the diference is that the international socialists are real. But the one good thing u can say about the neocons is that they re not marxists even if they borrow some marxist ideas and started out as trotskyites. As a rule they hate socialism and communism as much as any Bircher.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Clavos, I don’t actually see how socialism is being practiced in the USA at any meaningful level. Obama isn’t a socialist, a marxist or a practising communist, he’s just loosely a centrist, to the left on some issues, to the right on others.

    It seems to me that neither socialist nor capitalist philosophy has a complete enough picture or definition of contemporary society and politics as to be anything other than adjuncts to a much needed larger political philosophy, one that is slowly emerging out of even the somewhat retrospective US political perception of the world.

    What happens in the USA, given its position in the world, makes it a matter of interest and concern to everybody in the world, not just US citizens.

    I love it when Lumpy joins the debate, it’s like having a time machine back to the middle of the 20th Century.

    Whilst it is true that there is a small group of international socialists, they have as much chance of becoming a threat to the world as Ron Paul has of becoming US President.

    Lumpy, ignoring your cheap shots above and your apparent inability to put a full URL in that little box above the comments window, could you please explain how exactly in your view the political issues I briefly referred to and Lee Richards expanded upon constitute a “philosophy of oppression and totalitarianism”?

  • bliffle

    McCain? Paul?

    Paul can’t win outside Texas and McCain is going to be crushed in November. Together they’ll just alienate each others supporters.

  • Lumpy

    A small number of international socialists? Come on.

    What Rose misses is that socialism has become so mainstreamed in so much of the world that those who are mired in it like Rose don’t even recognize it anymore. Socialist statism has become their norm and they have forgotten that free societies can even exist and they look on the very idea of freedom as aberrant and threatening.

    Those who are part of the actual socialist international are definitely few and stuck in an outdated mindset. But the greater pervasive transnational socialist elite is huge amd runs most governments and NGOs.

    Should make Rose happy anyway.

  • STM

    Clav, on socialism: “So, while all you aliens find it innocuous … ”

    Sh.t. Me cover’s blown, Men in Black style. I was wondering when someone on here would notice the tucked-in antennae and the green tinge.

    Time to get back to Blarpgon 15. Or should I just stay in Australia. Will anyone notice the difference?

    BTW, we are such aliens, according to the US government, that we are the only country specifically to be given a work visa that is for Australian Citizens only.

    You can only get an E3, which in theory can be renewed indefinitely and also gives a spouse and family the right to live and work in the US, if you are Australian.

    Aliens indeed. You’re practically begging us to come there. The problem is, hardly any of us want to leave paradise :)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Is that E3 as in “Ee, three beers over here, please, mate!”?

  • troll

    Lumpy – if the state is responsible for protecting the rights of property it seems just that it take responsibility for protecting those of labor and the lumpen proles as well

    how far are you willing to go – ?

    I for one would like to see the classes ‘confront’ each other without fascist state control in the picture…

  • Lumpy

    I have a gun to defend my meagre property troll.

  • STM

    DD: “Is that E3 as in “Ee, three beers over here, please, mate!”?

    Lol. That’s more likely something you’d hear in the Old Dart isn’t Doc? Up on the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere …

    The E3 is fair dinkum though. Congress passed the legislation last year, and it’s a special visa category for the US only available to Australians. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I’d say it’s yet more evidence that Australia’s six states and three territories will one day constitute the 51st through to the 59th states of the USA.

    Heaven knows, you can hardly tell the difference here sometimes except that our cars are better and we drive on the proper side of the road and people speak English with an accent you can actually understand. Oh, did I mention the nice flag too …

    I do hope they let us keep the decent flag if that happens.

    Perhaps a better option, as I’ve proposed before, would be for the US to become the 41st through to the 59th states of Australia. Better for the Yanks, really, but they’d finally have to learn some geography and get a handle on what’s happening outside Doodad County.

    This whole visa thing is quite bizarre in some respects, in that the Queen (or more accurately her representative the Governor-General), is our head of state, that Australians and Americans can now have dual citizenship of both countries and this is now officially not an issue for the US.

    No wonder some conspiracy-minded Americans are starting to believe all this nonsense about American foreign policy being tied to that of the other English-speaking nations.

    I believe this applies to Poms too. So theoretically, even if you’ve taken an oath of allegiance to Queen Liz, Her Maj, you can still be a dual US/British/Australian citizen.

    Now, that wouldn’t have happened 200 years ago.

  • STM

    “the 41st through to the 59th states of Australia”

    Maths was never my forte. Make that the 10th through to the 59th states of Australia. That’s probably wrong too.

    Also, why not include Britain as well. Possibly Ireland too. It’s a problem here sometimes working out what country you’re in because of the vast numbers of immigrants from the Old Dart. On a Friday night in the pub in Sydney, you could easily think you were in Dublin or London. Eventually, all Poms will live here.

    Yanks reckon they’ve got problems with Mexicans??

    At least they don’t have to put up with planeloads of to-and-froms lobbing on their doorstep every five minutes.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I believe this applies to Poms too. So theoretically, even if you’ve taken an oath of allegiance to Queen Liz, Her Maj, you can still be a dual US/British/Australian citizen.

    Fair dinkum? Might be the one reason I’d take out Yank citizenship…

    Mind you, that eventual move Down Under is looking more tasty every day. We’re sure as hell not going to stay in fuckin’ Fresno the rest of our lives…

    I do miss rain, though. Even less of it here in the San Joaquin Valley than in Oz, from what I can gather. I’m eyeing up a possible year or three in Portland, Oregon. The climate’s similar to the Old Dart, we’ve got friends there and the cost of living is comparable to where we are now.

    Just got to convince the missus…

    After that, though – Sydney… why not?

  • troll

    well good Lumpy – you could barricade yourself on your property with your gun out of the way so that the rest of us could get on with developing techniques for non-violent conflict resolution and the like…

  • STM

    DD: “I do miss rain, though. Even less of it here in the San Joaquin Valley than in Oz”.

    Don’t let that stop you Doc. Coastal rain has never been the problem here. There’s plenty of that, as most of us in this country live right on the coast. It’s inland a bit that’s a worry.

    However, the drought seems to have broken finally in most regions. Western Australia still has its problems though.

    I was there last year, and the hotel I was in – in Perth, where you’d think it wouldn’t be a problem – had a note in three languages telling people to run the tap (faucet, where’s that come from?? although the poms used to call it a cock. Can you turn on the cock? Sure, I’m already there :)) for a while to get to the clear water.

    Apparently, with the dams at such low levels, a bit of that red dust settles in the pipes and has to be run off first for 10 seconds.

  • Clavos

    Tomorrow, it’s not going to matter one bit.

    I think you’re wrong there, lee.

    “The past is Prologue.”

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Stan – I don’t think you need to worry about statehood. Canada’s been safe as long as it has because no one can figure out how to configure the stars if we add any more. But the companies that make flags are waiting with baited breath for the day that it happens…

  • Lee Richards

    “The past is prologue”

    And the past teaches us that some sweeping changes, such as the printing press, make the prologue outdated if not irrelevant.

  • Clavos

    And the past teaches us that some sweeping changes, such as the printing press, make the prologue outdated if not irrelevant.

    Wrong. History is a continuum. Those who lose sight of that (which would include most Americans, especially those under 50), are, as the man said, “doomed to repeat it.”

    The printing press, at the time of its invention, did not substantially change the knowledge it was used to record; it simply enabled more people to access it.

    It was a leap forward, technologically; no question. But it did not suddenly wipe out all that had gone before; to the contrary, it disseminated that knowledge more widely.

    Humans and human societies are not much changed from the Middle Ages to today; only the Blackberries are really new.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Blackberries are new? My grandmother used to send us into the sticker bushes for them all the time when I was a kid…didn’t think they were new?!??!

  • Lee Richards

    The printing press DID substantially change knowledge subsequently and radically altered the way humans think about the world, universe, and themselves. It and other technologies it led to did vastly change human societies, economics and forms of government.

    You’re doomed to repeat what you choose not to change.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’d say it would be more accurate to say you’re doomed to repeat what you do not know. Can’t change it if you don’t know about it…

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    To paraphrase Rumsfeld, are those things you know you don’t know or things you don’t know you don’t know?

  • Clavos

    …did vastly change human societies, economics and forms of government.

    I don’t think so. The rich and powerful still control the world, and the serfs and peasants (i.e. the middle class in developed countries; the poor elsewhere) still work for them.

    Only the conditions for most (but by no means all) of the serfs and peasants have improved somewhat; which, ironically, helps to strengthen their bondage by keeping them more content with their lot.

  • Lee Richards

    #135:

    Wildly superficial and simplistic viewpoint to me , Clavos.

    But, if I did agree that the “serfs and peasants” are in bondage, but “more content with their lot”, it only supports my position that politics as usual in 2008-10-12, etc. is like walking blindfolded toward the rim of the Grand Canyon.

  • Baronius

    Lee, one thing that isn’t new is the presence of radicals claiming that everything is new. There are always people who say that it’s 1530, we can’t keep doing things the way we used to in the 1520’s. I want to know what you think has changed the applicability of our former principles. You mentioned science, technology, et cetera. That covers a lot of ground. If we’re going to throw out everything we’ve learned about organizing human society, I need something more specific.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Perhaps if McCain wanted to win Ron Paul’s favor he could denounce black people, homosexuals and the Jew banker conspiracy, and endorse the John Birch Society – all like Ron Paul.

  • Lee Richards

    #137:

    A good and fair question.

    First, I didn’t say we should throw out everything we’ve learned about organizing human society. Only the slash-and-burn politics which reduce our potential to innovate and adapt to rapid and fundamental changes the like and speed of which the world–and, specifically Americans(since I’m talking about the election of 2008)–have never experienced before.

    Viable principles shouldn’t change fundamentally. We’re a nation of laws, freedom, rights, democracy, opportunity, free enterprise, and justice. But these principles are evolving, too, as unprecedented change, in technology, science, environmental issues, and international relations is happening.

    The old saying goes something like, there are three kinds of people: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who don’t know anything is happening. Over-the-top partisan politics is devoted to electing “our kind”, no matter which of the three types they may happen to be. I seriously doubt those attitudes will will sustain, grow, and protect us in the long term.

    We can’t afford to follow leaders who don’t know what’s happening, or don’t want anything to happen, just because they carry a party label we’ve usually supported in the past.

    It’s ironic that some commenters here use the computer and internet to post political views that are exactly the same that they might have written on a portable typewriter 40 years ago, because they’re “lifelong”, true-blue this or that. When gas was 60-70 cents a gallon, I was a loyal Cadillac driver. At $1.60-$1.70 a gallon, I decided it made more sense to look at other options.

    2018 is likely to be as different from 2008 as 2008 is from 1958. Practicing politics by uber-partisanship, invective and screed will carry us backwards instead of into the future. Candidates who think 1950s-60s instad of 2020-30s haven’t a clue about where we need to go or how to get us there.

    Ever seen a documentary on primitive peoples and asked yourself, “How can they live like that with modern civilization happening all around them?”

    That’s what I’m asking about our politics in 2008.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry Lee. Basic principles don’t change with time. The same essential value on which the United States was founded still apply today.

    Freedom is still better than slavery.
    Knowledge is still better than ignorance.
    Self-sufficiency is still better than dependency.

    I’m sure you could think of some other fundamental principles if you try. These things don’t change, and the truth which many refuse to accept is that the methods of achieving these basic desirable conditions haven’t changed much either, in fact most change is generally not for the better.

    The fact that it is suddenly the 21st century doesn’t miraculously make practices which were unacceptable in 1900 acceptable. Human rights don’t change, and at heart all of this political nonsense comes down to preserving the rights of individuals and protecting their welfare.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    RE comment 138

    I see the bulldog has been led out of his cage to once again spread his own virulent brand of smear.

    In the last twenty years, I cannot recall a candidate for high office more civil, decent, non assuming, and and quite frankly a gentleman in both the literal and rhetorical use of that word, than Dr. Paul.

    Barger’s attempt so smear this decent man with the labes of racist, anti-semite, and homophobe will only convert those of Barger’s ilk.

    I call people such as Al a typical right wing gatekeeper, with the phony aura of libertarian, as is his mentor Davey. These guys will talk about libertarianism to fool the reader that their politics is about liberty, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    Dr. Paul has not only never waivered in his voting record for the last two decades. Whether it is in calling for public official to actually live up to their sworn oath of office, or challenging the very power elites who create money out of thin air, to recognizing the horror of war, and the machine that derives its substenance from it, Dr. Paul stands alone above the fray.

    Along comes Barger, and his pal Davey, to act as though they might support this good man, yet undermine him every chance they get. We who pay attention to the political antics are not swayed by their arguments, and see them for what they are, vile.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo, I’ve supported and voted for and donated money to Ron Paul for 20 years. Can you say the same?

    I did all of that in relative ignorance, based primarily on his public statements and reputation.

    Then along came the internet and a national campaign and the ugly truth began to come out about Paul and his association with the JBS and the kind of people he was attracting to his banner. It kind of took the shine off, you know.

    I want a REAL libertarian, not a JBS pseudo-conservative who calls himself a libertarian.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    Dave,
    The kind of libertarians that I admire do not support and approve of tin pot strong man dictators in other countries as you do. Instead of Dr. Paul publicly distancing himself from the JBS, as you call for, I suggest that he publicly distance himself from YOUR kind of support. I am quite sure that the good doctor does not believe in installing thugs so that you can continue to import slave labor from third world countries, so that you don’t pay too much for coffee or chocolate. Just my two sense worth Dave.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    So the kind of libertarians you support only believe in freedom for a select few in America and believe in allowing oppression to run rampant over the world so long as we can turn our backs and be left alone here at home, pretending that everything is okay. The kind of libertarians you support believe that liberty is a privelege rather than a right and that It’s better to give free reign to tyrrany and oppression than to make any effort to oppose them.

    IMO that’s a pretty crappy kind of libertarianism.

    Dave

  • Pablo

    another yawn for Davey

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Dave Nalle it seems is, as usual, simply throwing out as many naive or wacko suggestions as he can.

    Whether this is with the intent of trying to see how many people he can wind up or he is simply trying to prevent conversation developing along any kind of line his erratic political “thinking” opposes, only he knows.

    In the spirit of trying to be constructive and realistic, here are some responses.

    Dave, in #139 Lee said “Viable principles shouldn’t change fundamentally.” To which your response leads off “Sorry Lee. Basic principles don’t change with time.” Huh?

    You’re both wrong anyway. Basic principles change all the time, depending on who is setting the rules. A brief scan of human history would prove that.

    In a perfect world, freedom, knowledge and self-sufficiency would seem like absolutely wonderful aims. In the world we live in, things are different.

    A world based around absolute freedom for everybody would be a pretty brutal place; furthermore, slavery isn’t the opposite, so Dave’s presumably carefully chosen comparison is pointless.

    Similarly, knowledge appears to be a good thing and I’m a big fan, except many people claim to act out of knowledge without actually knowing very much and a very large proportion of people, even in so called advanced countries such as we find in North America and Europe, are actually hostile to knowledge.

    Equally, self sufficiency might seem to be a plausible good idea in general terms but we’re all dependent on each other in one way or another, so it is mostly illusory.

    The world we live in is an increasingly interwoven web of social, cultural, commercial and technical stuff and, as is the very art of politics itself, compromise and negotiation are the way forward. Absolutism, whether of the left or right (to use outdated political references) has by and large had its day. This is mostly a good thing.

    Similarly, in #144, in response to a supporter of a minor US politician, Dave sings the praises of a world which doesn’t “only believe in freedom for a select few in America and believe in allowing oppression to run rampant over the world so long as we can turn our backs and be left alone here at home” and that we shouldn’t “give free reign to tyrrany and oppression [rather] than to make any effort to oppose them”.

    Fine words indeed. Shame that is exactly what the US and most of the rest of the world is doing. It doesn’t take much effort to know which are currently the most tyrranical and oppressive countries in the world as this recent news story on a study by Freedom House shows. The list has Cuba, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan as the most oppressive regimes, followed by a whole bunch more. Compared to all the vastly expensive huffing and puffing going on in the Middle East, precious little is being done to oppose them.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Christopher, as Pablo will testify, I certainly understand the idea of accomodating reality in applying basic principles. But that doesn’t change the principles. They’re ideals. They exist as goals to be pursued, and the closer we get within the limits real world considerations, the better off we are. I’d rather be trying to achieve freedom with some compromises along the way than accepting that oppression is the nature of the world and not trying to do anything about it.

    All you have to do is look at the world and read Rousseau or Burke and you can see how all the problems which they observed are still around and how the basic principles of natural law are still desirable and valid.

    Similarly, in #144, in response to a supporter of a minor US politician,

    Minor to you. Slightly less minor to me. But to Pablo, to whom the response is directed, he’s the be all and end all of politics.

    Fine words indeed. Shame that is exactly what the US and most of the rest of the world is doing.

    And has always been doing. But to paraphrase Kennedy, while you see things as they are and say ‘so what’, I see things as they could be and say ‘why not?”

    It doesn’t take much effort to know which are currently the most tyrranical and oppressive countries in the world as this recent news story on a study by Freedom House shows. The list has Cuba, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan as the most oppressive regimes, followed by a whole bunch more. Compared to all the vastly expensive huffing and puffing going on in the Middle East, precious little is being done to oppose them.

    Surely you noticed that 5 of those countries although technically not in the middle east are Islamic and part of that same general cultural area?

    Dave

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Pablo, criticisms of Paul are not smears if they are TRUE. Paul spent many long years publishing truly ugly racist conspiracy bullshit that completely and utterly discredit him.

    That he talks more or less like a gentlemanly old grandpa this year as a national candidate only makes his sins worse. He’s lying his ass off about not knowing what he wrote and published under his name, and acts like he just loves LOVE. Then you see the real Paul in his newsletters, and his endorsement of the evil racist conspiracy freaks at JBS. If he had done any better at actually getting votes, the MSM would have (rightly) destroyed him.

    I don’t care if he supports shutting down the IRS, he’s an evil lying racist conspiracy nut. I would not support him, and he discredits anyone who would affiliate with him. Libertarians and even Republicans should shun this false prophet.

    Or perhaps the Republicans can in fact give him a prominent prime time speaking role at their convention, and give him a chance to unzip himself with a nice JBS rant. That’d improve the Republican brand.

  • Zedd

    Hillary’s people are long time Dems (feminists the most loyal). They ain’t going no where! After Bush, they wouldn’t.