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It’s Time for Blacks to Get Over Slavery

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Syndicated columnist Walter E. Williams pouts and complains that calls for the Virginia legislation to issue decrees of apologies for slavery fall far short. In fact, he goes the extra mile and suggests that whites owe blacks something. He seems to suggest that each and every white person should resolve black problems in Virginia – as if blacks themselves are unable to do anything.

Mr. Williams does everything but admit accountability for himself or blacks in Virginia. Instead, he criticizes white legislators in Virginia for not appeasing his requirements for an apologetic legislative mandate; and then squarely lays the blame on whites for whatever societal ills blacks in Virginia seem to have, ranging from unemployment to murder. 

Then, in a brilliant display of hypocritical meandering, Mr. Williams issues what could easily be labeled as “poor,” “pathetic,” and “insensitive” regret for the murder of six million Jews; untold millions of Russians; for the murder of 45 million Chinese; for the Khmer Rouge’s massive genocide programs; and the more recent programs of genocide in Uganda (though he conspicuously fails to mention Bosnia – almost all the victims were whites).  Quite conveniently, Mr. Williams also attempts to portray the plight of blacks in Virginia to be on par with these millions of victims.

The problem Mr. Williams has is the fact that slavery (in the context he discusses) happened more than 100 years ago, and in his futile attempt to link past with present, he tries to develop a correlation as to why blacks in Virginia suffer from various societal ailments. To put it simply, Mr. Williams asks – no, demands – that modern sufferings of black people must be cured by whites, if only because once upon a time, black people were slaves in Virginia, and that any murder which occurs in Virginia in 2007 will be the direct result of slavery in the 1800s. 

I got news for Mr. Williams: Get over it, already.

I’m not about to deny that blacks in this country still have some difficulties in making inroads towards achieving the American Dream, whatever that may be. There are always pockets of people who are prejudiced against other people, if only because of skin color, cultural differences, or even politically philosophical differences.  And unfortunately, the evil perpetuated by racism continues, even in today’s increasingly liberal society, and it seems to be an ingrained aspect of American life. 

I know something about discrimination and oppression, though, and probably more so than the vast majority of blacks in this country: I’m deaf. You won’t see me, however, pining for legislators to issue apologies for the treatment of all deaf people, either. 

Once upon a time in ancient Sparta, deaf babies and children were killed simply for being born deaf; in later centuries in this country, deaf people were shuttled off into “institutions” never heard from again; and in more recent times, deaf people were not allowed to vote, drive, find gainful employment and so forth and so on. Even as recently as the 1970’s, a common prescription for children born deaf was simply to have them placed into asylums, and rarely offered the opportunity to become full-fledged humans. In short, the dehumanization of deaf people throughout multiple civilizations has long been ignored, and a lack of apologetic legislative decrees shows insensitivity and further dehumanizing of all deaf people – at least, if we use Mr. Williams’ logic. 

So, where is my apology, Mr. Williams?

Moreover, at the onset of World War II, the first groups the Nazis practiced their genocide and human pain tolerance trials (imagine acid being poured into your eyes just to gauge the response) were on deaf (and other disabled) people – not Jews. In postwar West Germany, deaf people were required to be sterilized. In many Arabic countries – even today – laws (written and otherwise) exist to “protect” families and dowries from forfeiture in the event a child is born with a birth defect, such as deafness. I bet Mr. Williams has never walked across the border to Mexico and witnessed deaf (and disabled) children standing on the bridge between the two countries, begging for money. There are far too many other examples to list, but the point is clear: dehumanization of deaf (and disabled) people around the world continues. 

Nationally, deaf people routinely suffer the highest levels of drug abuse, suicide, unemployment rates, generally do not receive adequate education, and are typically mired in the ignorance of society. Even the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which was created to “level the playing field” for people with disabilities, was trashed by millions of people who did not suffer any form of disability and have, for all intents and purposes, reduced the ADA to a weak legislative mandate barely hanging on for survival.

So, where is my apology, Mr. Williams? 

I have routinely faced discrimination in many forms, although I seriously doubt a lynching of a deaf person has occurred in recent years. I have faced oppression in various forms, although I don’t complain that all hearing people owe me the regret of thousands of years of dehumanized practices on people like myself (my deafness is genetic, so using Mr. Williams inference, all poor treatment of others in my genetic line deserve some form of apology). Despite all this, I have never killed someone. I have never robbed someone, either. I’ve stayed away from drugs and other pitfalls of society because I’m not stupid.

If anything, the deaf community in this country needs serious help, but I don’t see Mr. Williams demanding such action. In fact, why doesn’t Mr. Williams apologize to some 200 children, ages 11-15, who were forced into prostitution by more than 150 pimps in Oakland, California?  Why doesn’t Mr. Williams apologize to the Filipino woman named Serena, who was beguiled into going to Saudi Arabia to seek better employment opportunities, only to endure forced slavery (sexual, too) since her employer seized her passport and refused to return it to her? Why doesn’t Mr. Williams apologize to countless other minority groups struggling to survive – literally and figuratively – in many countries around the world? Slavery still exists globally, although I rarely have ever seen any high-profile black person attempt to advocate the plight of enslaved victims in other countries. 

Seems to me that blacks in this country have little to complain about, especially with regard to legislative mandates issuing apologies for sins that occurred more than 100 years ago. Compared to deaf people, for example, there’s little justification or rationalization why blacks can’t find decent jobs, or can’t obtain decent education, or not murder other people, or not consume illegal drugs.What the Virginia Commonwealth General Assembly did was wrong – they shouldn’t have issued any apologies whatsoever.  And now, because of their stupidity, every group in America will demand and seek apologies from everyone not in their group. It won’t be long now before a homeowner’s association will demand that everyone living in apartments apologizes to homeowners for lowering land values.  

Mr. Williams and everyone else who seem to feel that whites owe blacks something, let me tell you: get over it. The best way to overcome whatever societal plights your group may be suffering is to accept responsibility for your actions – not what your ancestors or someone else’s ancestors may or may not have done. Even if Mr. Williams had a great, great, great grandfather who was a sharecropper, which has nothing to do with a black man killing another person in 2007, there is no correlation, other than what might exist in Mr. Williams’ mind between slavery in the 1800’s and the murder rate in Virginia in 2007.

At some point, blacks need to stop complaining about slavery. Yes, it was a horrible crime against humanity, but put into the appropriate context and perspective, slavery in this country pales to the massive crimes against humanity in modern times, from China to Turkey to Uganda (and Bosnia, Mr. Williams).  White people don’t owe blacks anything; nobody owes anybody anything, other than common sense and decency, and if we subscribe to Mr. Williams’ philosophy, we may as well all extrapolate apologies for every perceived sin (real or not) humans inflict upon one another and that would simply be too cumbersome, too difficult and in a word – stupid. 

I will defer Mr. Williams’ owed apologies if he’ll go and be positively constructive about ending slavery elsewhere in the world. Go volunteer for Free the Slaves. Donate money for poor, starving children who were once slaves in Asia. Speak out against slavery where it really exists – not something that happened well over 100 years ago. Until then, people like Mr. Williams need to do one thing first:

Get over it. 

Finally, a passage from Richard C. Harwood’s book, Hope Unraveled, is appropriate: “If you want to change the world, start with your country; and if you want to change your country, start with your state; and if you want to change your state, start with your town; and if you want to change your town, start with your family; and if you want to change your family, start with yourself.”

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About Paotie

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Finally!!

    About time. I’ve long said that my fellow Jews have to move beyond the evil the Nazis did to them, and stop building museums to their evil. And now the author of this article hits at the biggest guilt trippers in the States. Black politicians and their politically correct running dogs.

    This is long overdue. Bravo!!

  • G. Chell

    Blacks should get over slavery when the whites stop waving the dumb confederate flag reminding them of slavery!!

  • S.T.M

    And the pasty-looking poms should get over being an inferior race and bow to the fact that they foolishly sent all the worst people to the best place, thus ensuring that it would become one long party.

  • JustOneMan

    Good post! Enough is enough!

    Ruvy – practice what you preach – “Jews have to move beyond the evil the Nazis did to them”. Pretty funny coming from you the “King of The Cult of Victimization”

    JOM

  • Robin Kavanagh

    This article is extremely well argued. Though I agree with your points, it needs to be said that self responsibility is a quality that is lacking throughout America. It’s not race-specific.

    People in general look to blame others for their lot in life. But it’s my experience that you get to where you are by the choices that you make. If you make bad choices and end up suffering because of them, you have two options: wallow in your misery and look to blame someone, or forget blame all together and move on. Most of the time, the only thing that’s stopping you is you.

    Everyone needs to get over themselves. Boo hoo, your life sucks. Do something about it.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “…it needs to be said that self responsibility is a quality that is lacking throughout America. It’s not race-specific.”

    Quoted for Truth!

  • G. Chell

    “This article is extremely well argued. Though I agree with your points, it needs to be said that self responsibility is a quality that is lacking throughout America. It’s not race-specific.”

    Comment: The same whites who argue that blacks are not well qualified for higher education run away from schools that are heavily Asian so that they dont have to face serious competition.

  • Maurice

    Paotie

    you clearly have no idea or frame of reference to what Prof. Williams is talking about. Please reread the article and pay attention to what he is saying. Particularly lines like the following:

    …they should know that their actions mean little in dealing with the day-to-day plight of many black Virginians — which has nothing to do with slavery.

  • JustOneMan

    “…it needs to be said that self responsibility is a quality that is lacking throughout Israel. It’s religion-specific.”

    This is validated by Israels dependence on the US for financial aid, weapons, security, foodstamps and free cheese right Ruvy!

    Quoted for Truth!

  • G. Chell

    “…they should know that their actions mean little in dealing with the day-to-day plight of many black Virginians — which has nothing to do with slavery.”

    Comment: Like the neo-confederate thugs reminding them of slavery…try these thugs at..

    http://www.cofcc.org

    If you can convince these white southern thugs to stop waving the confederate flag, blacks should forget about slavery and reparations…it is a two way street.

  • Maurice

    I would encourage those commenting to reread the article which is greatly misinterpreted by Paotie.

    Prof. Williams is saying that apologies are a big waste of time. Focus on schools and crime prevention instead.

    I think nobody really disagrees with Prof. Williams – they have just misunderstood his words.

  • Paotie

    Of course, the context of any writing depends on whom is reading it. Mr. Williams demanded the Virginia legislature to fix societal problems that are not specific to just blacks, though his article is entirely focused towards blacks.

    Either way, enough’s enough. If Mr. Williams wants equality throughout the country, then demand the Virginia legislature to fix problems relating to crime for ALL citizens – not just blacks.

    As usual, when a person challenges the status quo for black thinking, s/he is viewed as racist or misunderstood, presumably because only blacks would understand Mr. Williams’ argument.

    Wrong.

    Anyway, the beauty of America is that it’s just my opinion. If you don’t like it, write to your local Congressman/Congresswoman.

    :o)

    Paotie

  • G. Chell

    “As usual, when a person challenges the status quo for black thinking, s/he is viewed as racist or misunderstood, presumably because only blacks would understand Mr. Williams’ argument.”

    Comment: As usual when a person challenges the white thinking they stonewall and do not respond. Black demand is a two way street. When whites stop waving the confederate flag and stop celebrating the confederate dead and join the Union, blacks should stop demanding apologies for slavery and stop demanding reparations.

  • hdc

    Paotie,
    I am not sure what race/ethnicity you are but I have to assume you are white, because that is the unmarked category of race/ethnicity in this country. What about Deaf individuals who are also People of Color, you never referenced them in your response to the original article. Even though deafness is what unites (most) in the Deaf community race/ethnicity is still what separates them, your response to Mr. Williams article is yet another example.

    Comparing the opression of the d/Deaf community and African American community is not a productive conversation. While we both face discrimination they are not comparable, and get us nowhere. The larger issue is whiteness/white privilege and the notion of able bodies being the norm. This is where we should be focusing our energies in combating, not other marginalized groups.

    I would suggest you do some research into Whiteness Studies, you then will be able to understand the legacy of white privilege and how you, even as a deaf person, are benefiting from that privilege. Theories on color blindness will also be able to help you understand the larger picture as well.

    The only way a person can learn is to put themselves out there so I commend you on that. Never stop learning.

  • G. Chell

    “I would suggest you do some research into Whiteness Studies, you then will be able to understand the legacy of white privilege and how you, even as a deaf person, are benefiting from that privilege. Theories on color blindness will also be able to help you understand the larger picture as well.”

    No need to do any research or academic work…just look at these groups:

    League of the South

    Council of Conservative Citizens

  • Paotie

    hdc –

    You presume too much. I have a white Deaf friend who attended a school for the Deaf, and the lad has no proper English writing skills; lacks the appropriate ability to do simple math, and in general, has very poor communication skills. Of course, we could argue that his ASL background is the culprit here, but that’s for another day and another topic.

    So, I’d love for you to meet him and explain to him how his dependency on Social Security benefits, food stamps, and a general inability to find jobs that are not labor-intensive are somehow not because of the fact he’s white. Where is the benefit for him being white?

    At least if you’re black in this country, you’ve got countless self-advocacy groups willing to step to the plate for you. If you’re deaf, you’re lucky to get an advocacy group to go to bat for you. Deaf/disabled groups sit on the fringe of society, as do most disabled/deaf people.

    Anyway, if everything taught in academics was easily transferable to real-world applications, then all graduates of MBA programs should be CEOs or CFOs right after graduation. But, that doesn’t happen (or rarely does). So, you can keep your “whiteness” studies; I’ll research more materials as I deem appropriate.

    In the meantime, don’t forget: intolerance begets more intolerance. People would do well to learn to tolerate others, even if their opinions sharply differ from their own.

    :o)

    Paotie

  • wdufkin

    G. Chell, I’d never really looked at the League before you mentioned it. I went to the website and found the statement on racism. So what was your point exactly?
    League of the South
    Statement on “Racism”
    The League of the South has never before issued a statement denying that it is “racist” because racism is a wax nose charge. Those who resort to this charge can never be satisfied. The more we deny it, the more we will be forced to deny it, until at last all that we will have time to do is to repel the latest charge of “racism.” However, we make this one statement, to satisfy strangers of good will, that we bear no ill will or hatred to any racial, ethnic, or religious group.

    We believe that Christianity and social order require that all people, regardless of race, must be equal before the law. We do not believe that the law should be used to persecute, oppress, or favour any race or class.

    We believe that the only harmony possible between the races, as between all natural differences among human beings, begins in submitting to Jesus Christ’s commandment to “love our neighbours as ourselves.” That is the world we envision and work for.

    We believe that the politics of race — baiting whites against blacks and blacks against white has been profitable for politicians but catastrophic for the South and Southerners.

    We believe that black Southerners want and need what we want and need: a safe country for their families, liberty, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    We believe that the last thing the South’s enemies want is to see black and white Southerners sitting down together to determine their common destiny and work for authentic harmony, a just social and economic order, and an independent South. We can’t foretell precisely what that order will look like, but certainly it will not make room for diversity police and political correctness. Rather, we hope it will bring the greatest freedom for the greatest number of all races, and good will among them all.

    The League of the South Board of Directors
    21 June 2005

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Paotie, I appreciate your intended point, but you are completely 100% misinterpreting Walter Williams. He was coming in a slightly backwards way to the same point.

    Dr Williams is perhaps the most renowned black conservative academic in America, give or take Thomas Sowell. I promise that Walter Williams is NOT whining about slavery. His article is NOT all about black folks. That was the whole point of invoking every other kind of injustice like the Holocaust: Pretty much EVERYBODY has had horror and injustice in their ancestry.

    Indeed, if you read up on Dr Williams, you’ll find that he’s absolutely a pariah in the black professional victim community. His name would be a curse word to the likes of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

  • zingzing

    paotie: “At least if you’re black in this country, you’ve got countless self-advocacy groups willing to step to the plate for you. If you’re deaf, you’re lucky to get an advocacy group to go to bat for you. Deaf/disabled groups sit on the fringe of society, as do most disabled/deaf people.”

    ok, paotie… you do know that your whining sounds like the whining you accuse blacks of… just with more hypocrisy mixed into it.

    so, this is what i hear: “stop whining, african americans, it’s my turn to bitch!”

    it does nothing for your argument other than defeat it.

  • Paotie

    zingzang –

    Awww .. touched a nerve, did we?

    :o)

    Paotie

  • Clavos

    Paotie,

    You need to go back and read the Williams article several more times; until you understand it.

    You’ve got it completely wrong; you say:

    If Mr. Williams wants equality throughout the country, then demand the Virginia legislature to fix problems relating to crime for ALL citizens – not just blacks.

    that’s EXACTLY what he IS saying; read this (from the article):

    The General Assembly’s statement of regret for slavery means absolutely nothing to me. If anything, it’s nothing less than a cheap insult and capitulation of white delegates to black h u s t l e r s. Possibly, the whites who voted in support of the declaration were mau-maued into it or they felt guilt over our history of slavery.

    …The U.S. murder rate is 5.6 people per 100,000 of the population. In the Commonwealth of Virginia’s capital, Richmond, where the General Assembly meets, the murder rate is 43 people per 100,000 of the population, making Richmond the city with the third-highest murder rate in the nation, according to a 2005 FBI report.

    No race specificity there. True, later he says that the Legislature should apologize for crime on Blacks, but that’s an ironic statement, made in the context of the Legislature’s current resolution.

    On education, he points out the serious failure of the Virginia educational system vis-a-vis Blacks, but here again also makes a side remark indicating that education for whites is below par as well.

    As Maurice wrote above. the main point of Williams’ article is “Forget the apologies, stop crime and fix the schools instead”, good advice regardless of race.

  • zingzing

    no, you just look like a hypocrite.

    no problem. lots of hypocrites out there.

  • zingzing

    22 was for 20.

    it looks like you read the title to williams’ column, decided he was bitching about the lack of an apology, (which he wasn’t,) and then went off on some tirade about how blacks don’t deserve shit and you’re deaf so you’ve been through the same thing and you’re not bitching, no, you’re not bitching at all… well, then you do go on to bitch about how there’s no support system for deaf people, not like the ones those blacks have that because you’re white you could never have… and it goes on.

  • G. Chell

    League of the South can claim all they want..but they do wave the confederate flag..if you wave a red flag in front of a bull it will charge you. If you wave a confederate flag in front of black people, they are going to charge you. White people should not be reminding black people about slavery through Civil War and Confederat flag…perhaps then the blacks would stop demanding apologies and reparations…pretty simple that even a child can understand….and by the way, the Jews shouid do away with holocaust museums and memorablila if the white southerners do away with the confederate museums, flags and other stuff and join the Union.

  • zingzing

    i dunno g. chell… do you really equate a flag and talking about history (what is this “joining the union” crap?) with 400 years of slavery?

    white people should not “remind” black people of slavery? hrm. lemme see. since it was all based on race and skin color… just our whiteness (and their blackness) reminds them of slavery, if they want to think about it.

    blacks aren’t going to stop being angry about our collective past if the confederate flag disappears. they’ll just won’t be angry about the confederate flag. they’ll still remember it.

    why do you advocate getting rid of museums and our history? shouldn’t we remember the things we have done?

  • G. Chell

    why do you advocate getting rid of museums and our history? shouldn’t we remember the things we have done?

    Comment: Just like you have the right to do it, the blacks have the right to demand apologies, whine and cry, throw tantrums and do everything else on God’s earth from opening a museum on slavery and Jim Crow segregation to demand reparations…does not mean whites have to listen. But, blacks have as much rights to demand apology slavery as much as whites have the right to remember about the Lost Cause…both are part of American history….the Lost Cause and Slavery.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    An interesting article, but you might have wanted to READ Williams’ article before responding to it, since you’ve totally mischaracterized it.

    I knew something was wrong when I read your first sentence, since Williams is on record as having been one of the most outspoken black opponents of slavery apologies and reparations.

    Contrary to what you’ve written the article does not condemn the apology for being inadequate, it dismisses it as pointless and ridiculous. Williams then goes on to argue that if the Virginia assembly wants to do something useful it should do its job and improve the schools and fight crime to make the lives of white AND black citizens better in the present.

    Also contrary to what you’ve written he doesn’t single out ‘white’ legislators as the problem, but legislators in general, many of whom are black. His article is not really about race at all, it’s about the incompetence of government.

    You’ve got a point on the suffering of the deaf, and a valid complaint about those who think only their minoritty has had it hard, but you aren’t being fair to Williams when you write things like:

    “Mr. Williams and everyone else who seem to feel that whites owe blacks something, let me tell you: get over it.”

    Because Williams absolutely DOES NOT believe this. He’s famous – even reviled by other blacks – for holding exactly the opposite position.

    I suggest that those reading this article follow the link and read Williams’ article too, because it’s nothing like the description written here and he has some very good points to make.

    Dave

  • Paotie

    Dave,

    In reading Williams’ article, my perception of his intent was to criticize lawmakers in Virginia – regardless of race – in passing such a trivial legislative action when so many other pressing needs should be considered. The caveat, however, is that Mr. Williams focuses on resolving black problems, and makes no effort to include other societal problems afflicting other Americans. So, even if my article reflected a different intent by Mr. Williams, I stand by my comments.

    I will say, however, that the number of comments regarding Mr. Williams as being a “pariah” in the black community piqued my interest in his writings even more. And to that, I want to thank many of you: his writings DO reflect the fact he disagrees with professional black victims.

    So, I owe Mr. Williams an apology for lumping him with others, such as the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rev. Al Sharpton, to name but a few. If anything, the comments posted today regarding Mr. Williams has allowed me to view his teachings with more respect, which he deserves.

    In the meantime, my point remains the same: we can’t fight intolerance with more intolerance.

    :o)

    Paotie

  • G. Chell

    “In the meantime, my point remains the same: we can’t fight intolerance with more intolerance.”

    Any viable solutions?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    “my point remains the same: we can’t fight intolerance with more intolerance.”

    Something I feel certain Williams would agree with 100%.

    Dave

  • Paotie

    Right.

    So, that means you’ll tolerate me, and I’ll reciprocate.

    See? It wasn’t all that hard, was it?

    :o)

    Paotie

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    For what it’s worth, it’s been noticed that Paotie and Jake The Snake share the same IP address and I am waiting to learn whether they also share a brain…

  • Paotie

    As I emailed Mr. Rose, it was an accident, an error.

    Look at the bottom of that posting and look who signed off on it.

    :o)

    Paotie

    (I wish I were perfect, alas I am not, but thank you for understanding.)

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Well, I haven’t actually received an email from Paotie but based on his comment above, I’m going to change the attribution of the Snake.

  • Paotie

    AOL must be slow, today.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    AOL is always slow, that’s why it’s mostly used by children…

  • zingzing

    dee-ammmm-n.

  • Paotie

    It wasn’t slow yesterday, so the kids must’ve been out partying?

    Such a tragic thing ..

  • MCH

    “For what it’s worth, it’s been noticed that Paotie and Jake The Snake share the same IP address and I am waiting to learn whether they also share a brain…”

    Sounds like Vox Populi and Dave Nalle.

  • http://nbjr.speakupwny.com Mike In WNY

    “my point remains the same: we can’t fight intolerance with more intolerance”

    It sounds to me like you are practicing a bit of stereotyping. You equate the actions of a few white people with all white people. There will always be jerks of all skin colors. The solution is to ignore them and they will go away instead of feeding into their negativity.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    GREAT post!

    More White Americans died in the four-year war to end slavery than Blacks have died at the hands of White racists in the 142 years since.

    Think about that, next time “civil rights” leaders like Al Sharpton demand “reparations” for something that no one alive today had to endure…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “If you can convince these white southern thugs to stop waving the confederate flag, blacks should forget about slavery and reparations…it is a two way street.”

    Slavery was a part of, well, part of America for 89 years. Slavery was a part of the Confederacy for 4 years.

    The American flag is as much, if not more, a symbol of slavery than the Confederate flag.

    Either way, GET OVER IT…

  • http://salonely.blogspot.com reggie von woic

    Excellent post!!

    Being black (non-American, though) i too have had enough of it in this country…no one (alive) can tell me, un-hypocritically, that this has nothing to do with me. Lets all let the past go and deal with contemporary race issues as they come…

  • http://www.frutavida.com/2283012 Knowledge

    Meeting the opposition to reparations By Donna Lamb

    [It’s not a good idea to copy other people’s lengthy work so I have replaced the article with a hyperlink to the original source. Comments Editor]

  • http://www.frutavida.com/2283012 Knowledge

    Where are the other two articles then? :-(

    Any excuse to keep people from seeing the truth will do won’t it?

    You’re either part of the problem, or you are part of the solution. I suspect you are the latter.

  • http://www.frutavida.com/2283012 Knowledge

    A Word Of Explanation…

    You will notice that The Harvest Institute capitalized the words Black and White when referring to people. This may feel unfamiliar but we do it out of respect for both the Black and White race. It is inappropriate to capitalize Asians, Hispanics, and other groups and not give Whites and Blacks the respect to which both are entitled.

    Q. Slavery happened so long ago. I am not responsible for it. Why can’t we just forget it?

    A. The nation’s race problem, a structural economic inequality between the races, is directly traceable back to and across four centuries of slavery and Jim Crow apartheid (semi-slavery).Slavery and Jim Crow established and maintained imbalances between the races. Under these social and economic systems, nearly 100 percent of this nation’s wealth and power resources, and controls of all levels of government, were mar-distributed into the hands of dominant white society. The advantages, preferences and wealth assets, in the form of stocks, bonds, shares, businesses, land, insurance benefits and trust accounts, are passed from one generation to the next through inheritance laws. Though whites today continue to enjoy the advantages of centuries of govermment-supported preferences for Whites, most live in a state of denial about how their group’s wealth and power were acquired.

    Full story at link below: The Harvest Institute

  • http://www.frutavida.com/2283012 Knowledge

    Racism and “Preferential Treatment” by the Numbers

    By Tim Wise, Association for White Anti-Racist Education (AWARE)

    Anyone who does political analysis, advocacy or organizing knows that folks on all sides of an issue have “numbers.” Trotting out statistics to prove one’s point about something is a well-accepted practice, and yet rarely do we stop to think about what certain numbers mean: be they used by “our side,” or by political adversaries.

    As someone who works full-time doing antiracism work, I constantly run across those whose “numbers” are thrown at me in an attempt to prove two things in particular: 1) that racist attitudes among whites are virtually nonexistent nowadays; and, 2) that the only real discrimination still in evidence is that dreaded “reverse” kind, as in so-called affirmative action “preferences.” Herein, I would like to address both claims, with reference to numbers, and what they do (and don’t) mean.

    Full story at link below: :-(

    Racism and “Preferential Treatment” by the Numbers By Tim Wise

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Well, Knowledge, when you’ve finished leaping to conclusions, perhaps you’ll consider this: If you wrote those articles yourself, heck, I’m impressed.

    If you didn’t, then you should present them as I did your first, possibly with a nice little introduction to put the article in context, not simply paste in somebody else’s work. It’s as much a matter of respect as it is good manners.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Aah, there you go, now you’re getting the hang of it…

    Now just remember to please format your links as per Blogcritics protocol. That means like this – Blogcritics and not like this http://blogcritics.org. Thanks.

  • http://www.frutavida.com/2283012 Knowledge

    Listen! I know these people personally. They are members of discussion forums I moderate.

    They have no problem with my pasting their information all over the world when I see forums of brain damaged Caucasians spouting their usual uninformed crap about black people and what we are owed by this devilish White Supremacist Nation.

    White outnumber us by 5 to 1. If I personally responded to all the hate and ignorance from them that I see online, I woulnd’t have time to do anything else with my life. So I have other friends who are also experts on reparations and White Supremacy. Depending on what is being said on the forum, I may decide to use their posts which are easy to copy and paste.

    You SHOULD be concerned about the accuracy of the information I share rather than nit picking over trivial things as you are doing.

    Stop trying to walk around the cesspool. You are knee deep IN IT! :-)

    Now read the information carefully and put some accurate facts in your devilish, nonwhite people hating, diabolical, baby killing George Bush supporting minds.

    Need I say more.

    BTW, I have one of the most factual blogs in cyberspace. I’m not ready to give these people a link to it, as their knowledge level is to shallow to contribute anything worthwhile.
    Spater

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    That’s as may be, Knowledge, but that’s the way we do things around here.

    I don’t have any problems with the issues you wish to raise but on two things we’re a little inflexible. Firstly, don’t be making presumptious and gratuitous insults as you did above and secondly, proper attribution for other people’s work is required. If you are indeed a forum moderator, you’ll already understand the reasoning.

  • G. Chell

    “Slavery was a part of, well, part of America for 89 years. Slavery was a part of the Confederacy for 4 years.”

    The American flag is as much, if not more, a symbol of slavery than the Confederate flag.”

    Comment: That is not the issue here. The issue here is the Confederate flag defended slavery in the civil war. You lost the Civil War!! Now get over it!!

  • http://nbjr.speakupwny.com Mike In WNY

    The issue here is the Confederate flag defended slavery in the civil war. You lost the Civil War!! Now get over it!!

    I hate to break it to you, but the Civil War was not about slavery, that was just Lincoln’s excuse. It was about expanding Federal power over the States and abolishing the States’ right to secede from the Union.

  • Zedd

    RJ

    You don’t get over your history. I don’t recall any part of American history that we want to “get over”.

    Are you saying that it should not be brought up any more? Why?

    Do you realise that in no time in our history have we EVER actually faced what we did. How can AAs get over something that hasn’t been faced?

    I can understand the holocaust being annoying. It wasn’t here for one thing and it was for a few years. Africans came here as slaves in 1619 and Jim Crowe was abolished in the 60’s. Get over it?? How? It is an entire history of a people. It is the conception of a people. AAs began as slaves. Why should they forget it? Its like telling everyone to forget what their organs are and their entire history and not explaining why.

    You are uncomfortable about slavery for some reason. That is your problem. Find a way to understand why and deal with it.

  • Zedd

    Those of you who propose that AAs get over their own history, obviously because it makes YOU uncomfortable, imagine being asked to do the same.

    1. Slavery and Jim Crowe is supposed to make you uncomfortable it was sick.

    2. Slavery and Jim Crowe is a huge part of American history. Adjust to that fact.

    3. African Americans are conceived as slaves. How can they forget slavery? Without slavery they don’t exist. Adjust to that reality.

    4. We have not FACED the evil of slavery as a nation. We wanted AAs to get over it on day one after emancipation. Adjust and deal with it. Its who we are.

    When we are taught the great deeds of our founding fathers we forget that they were hypocrites. We gloss over their owning humans like cattle while declaring “give me liberty or give me death”. Blacks don’t. We remember and get glassy eyed during The Star Spangled Banner yet FORGET that at that very moment when those words were written people were chained and beaten because of their skin. We don’t get over the glossy images of our history yet we ask Blacks to get over the reality of their existence. They exist because of slavery.

    The issue of GETTING OVER IT is our problem. It is the rest of us that are ill and are in denial of OUR reality. There is no part of our history that we want to GET OVER but the evil that we have perpetuated on Africans in America. Face it. Deal with it. Its who America is.

  • Zedd

    Mike

    It was about expanding Federal power over the States and abolishing the States’ right to secede from the Union.

    Yes we’ve heard it all before… they wanted to secede so that they can continue their way of life freely without any Northern values being imposed upon them. Their way of life (gravy) was slavery. They weren’t ready to give it up YET.

  • Zedd

    reggie von woic

    Are you African or are you European Black?

  • Arch Conservative

    “Do you realise that in no time in our history have we EVER actually faced what we did. How can AAs get over something that hasn’t been faced?”

    what’s this we shit?

    the last time I checked there is no one currently alive who was a slave or kept slaves in this nation.

    There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging the past but you are living in it Zedd.

    Reggie is right. You need to let it go and deal with today’s realities.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “forums of brain damaged Caucasians spouting their usual uninformed crap about black people and what we are owed by this devilish White Supremacist Nation.”

    Yeah, THAT sort of remark is gonna get me (and other White people) to eagerly accept “reparations” for slavery…

  • G. Chell

    “the last time I checked there is no one currently alive who was a slave or kept slaves in this nation.”

    Comment: The last time I checked, there were at least 40 million white Americans who were alive who supported segregation in the US South, denied equal opportunity to black people and other minorities, kept them in low paying positions despite qualifications, shut them out of several job opportunities and in general enforced a rigid system of discrimination that denied blacks any opportunity to earn and accumulate wealth. So I agree slavery is not the issue here. I alos know one person who was ten years old in 1928 when black people were run out of Rosewood, Florida on heresay of a crime…and he was around and his brothers participated in the atrocity….and he benefited from the atrocity…so yes, we should not be talking about slavery…but reparations for atrocity committed under Jim Crow, because a lot of the people who committed the atrocities are still alive and they should be held accountable. If those criminals were not alive the FBI dominated by whites wont be going there looking for some of these murderers. I rest my case.

    Regards
    Chell

  • Zedd

    Arch

    We as in America. Just as we say WE when referring to all other historical events in this country. You weren’t in WWII but you say WE when speaking of our efforts in that endeavor.

    I find it interesting how blurry peoples reasoning gets when it comes to AA issues. This tendency is a clear indication that America has a HUGE problem with race. It is a clear indication that White Americans have an enormous issue with African Americans and their history. The unfounded fear of African Americans (who should fear who really), the protest of EVERY endeavour to correct the actions of the past, the misplaced tags placed on AAs and the irrational logic where it comes to where AAs should be based on their history in this country. It all indicates that Whites have THE problem and it is enormous.

  • Zedd

    Its funny how we claim and are proud of the deeds which have lead to this country’s prosperity. Whether ones ancestors come from Europe in the 20th century or not we say OUR founding fathers. We celebrate the 4th of July (none of us were there). However when it comes to us embracing the one major EVIL of our society, somehow we are distant and don’t claim affiliation with this nation. We leave the victims of it still holding the bag in an almost blaming tone. We choose to ignore that the prosperity that we are so proud of was gained at the detriment of a people and that their offspring sit where they do because of that.

    Sick!

  • Arch Conservative

    So I agree slavery is not the issue here.

    Yes, it is. The topic of the article was slavery and reparations.

    Again..you’re living in the past. There is no such thing as slavery in America anymore and it would not be right to attempt to correct the wrongs of slavery today by punishing people that has nothing to do with it.

    You say whites protest every attempt to correct the actions of the past yet you seem wholly incapable of understanding the concept of not punishing one person for something their ancestors may have done.

    No one is denying that there is racial tension in America today but if we were to look at the past and say well the great grandparents of this group of people oppressed the great grandparents of this group of people so they are owed something by the first group, it will only lead to more racial tension and divisiveness. The best solution is as Reggie suggested. To live in the present and deal with new each issue as it arises and all do our best to ensure that this nation provides equal opportunity, not equal results, for all, regardless of race.

    Until you can stop living in the past and obsessing upon all the negative things that happened, of which you yourself were not directly involved in, it will be hard for reasonable and sincere people to take you seriously.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Holding on to the past with no clear benefit to the present and future is a sucker’s game.

  • Zedd

    Alessandro Nicolo

    Are you saying that African Americans are holding on to the past with NO CLEAR benefit to the present and future?

    You do realise that the reason that Blacks want the nation to deal with the past is so that THEY can move on.

    I personally think that if we create a national consciousness about our evil past that we wouldn’t engage in such things as the Iraq war. We would have learned how to respect humanity and realised that hurt and irreparable damage that our actions can cost on an entire people and their FUTURE.

    Right now we are arrogant because we haven’t learned the lessons of the past. We are like spoiled kids. We commit havoc and just move on like nothing happened and actually taunt the people that we injured. Its sick wouldn’t you agree?

  • Zedd

    Arch

    You say whites protest every attempt to correct the actions of the past yet you seem wholly incapable of understanding the concept of not punishing one person for something their ancestors may have done.

    Who said anything about punishing anyone. The benefits that you enjoy, the benefits that your ancestors rushed from Europe to enjoy were gained at the detriment of African Americans. Making the awarness of this matter a huge part of our education and consciousness; that we have a history of evil, will heal this nation. We need it. That is not punishment. That is responsibility and facing reality. America would be so much further evolved if we would just face this issue once and for all. But because we haven’t faced who we are and what our foundation is, we live in denial with an underlying smoldering which comes off to the rest of the world as stupidity, arrogance and bullying.

    Our lack of facing who America is renders us unsophisticated and stagnant. We have to import new people and new ideas because we are in ferry tail mode and don’t grow on our own. We choose to lounge in our belief in the flag and our bizarrely distorted history. We proudly proclaim and force our idea of democracy on the world when we just got over our issues (legally) in the 60’s. THE 60’s!! We yet lecture the world about how to behave because we are in denial about who we are. How embarrassing.

    I bet that you, a man your age never sat down to think, if you do what we did to AAs, what is SUPPOSED to happen to them over time? How are they supposed to turn out? You just spew out childish conclusions based on your fairy tale delusions of America.

  • Zedd

    Arch

    it will be hard for reasonable and sincere people to take you seriously.

    Your biggest mistake is assuming that AAs need to impress Whites so that they are treated fairly, like human beings. You are mistaken because you fail to realise that the problem is with Whites. Blacks don’t have to prove anything to anyone. Its Whites who have lived off of the trials of this population since the conception of this country and still do. Your naivity (or intense denial) keeps you from understanding that. It is Whites who have to atone. It’s Whites who YES must take the steps.

    You make another mistake thinking that people are obsessed with slavery. Do you really think when you go to the grocery store or are driving down the road or are at work that the Blacks that you see are thinking about slavery? Like you, they are taking care of their families, paying bills and sending kids to college. Your desire not to deal with the real history of this country causes you to exaggerate the requests of Blacks to deal with the matter of our past so we can all move on.

    What I suspect is that many Whites don’t really want this issue to go away because once it does, than everyone is truly on the same footing. The imagined White supremacy ends and White privilege goes down the tube and you really do have to compete on merit for the first time ever. Your dumb kid has to compete with smart minorities and he doesn’t get a break because of his pink skin because no one will care.

    I believe that many don’t want to deal with the past because you don’t want this country to heal so that everyone is truly responsible for their fate. You get to preach (with your inferior mental capacity) at others because you are a White man and you assume you know better. You dont’ realise just how tolerated your inferior capacity has been. When the time comes for true equality, the little that you have attained will be much less because you don’t get your White male pass (of today not the past).

    Now Arch, the sooner we face this matter, the sooner it will be in the past so that YOU can get over it.

  • troll

    Jedd – please describe what form white atonement should take IYO

  • troll

    (geeze – sorry ’bout the ‘J’ Zedd)

  • Clavos

    Zedd says:

    …Making the awarness of this matter a huge part of our education and consciousness; that we have a history of evil, will heal this nation. We need it. That is not punishment. That is responsibility and facing reality. America would be so much further evolved if we would just face this issue once and for all. But because we haven’t faced who we are and what our foundation is, we live in denial with an underlying smoldering which comes off to the rest of the world as stupidity, arrogance and bullying.

    Classic Communist self-criticism; straight out of Marxian writings.

    Sorry, lady, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Few, if any, contemporary whites (none I know personally) feel any guilt whatever for slavery, nor are we in need of “facing” anything. Slavery in America is over. Done. Finis. This is not denial, it is historical fact.

    Work needs to be done yet on racism (both ways); much progress has been made legally, but we need to continue to teach children from birth to be color-blind.

    We yet lecture the world about how to behave because we are in denial about who we are. How embarrassing.

    Be embarrassed if you wish. We made mistakes in Vietnam (history now) and Iraq (still to be corrected), but as nations go, we’ve done pretty well overall. And no other nation works harder at having a conscience and correcting our mistakes, even if we don’t always succeed.

    Embarrassed? Not even slightly.

  • G. Chell

    “I hate to break it to you, but the Civil War was not about slavery, that was just Lincoln’s excuse. It was about expanding Federal power over the States and abolishing the States’ right to secede from the Union.”

    I wish some of the southern states secede from the Union now!!!

  • G. Chell

    “Classic Communist self-criticism; straight out of Marxian writings.”

    There are some Americans who masquerade as conservatives who in fact practice Marxism..among them Duncan Hunter, Tom Tancredo, Dana Rohrbacher and Steve King..want to create a Gulag, build a wall and talk about the proletariat…

  • G. Chell

    “Work needs to be done yet on racism (both ways); much progress has been made legally, but we need to continue to teach children from birth to be color-blind.”

    Comment: Good luck!! Wishful thinking!!

    “Be embarrassed if you wish. We made mistakes in Vietnam (history now) and Iraq (still to be corrected), but as nations go, we’ve done pretty well overall. And no other nation works harder at having a conscience and correcting our mistakes, even if we don’t always succeed.”

    Comment: We will never learn…trying doesn’t count..and as of now we have not succeeded…another mistake…running up a huge debt to foreign countries and arrogantly behaving like the world owes us something while we indeed owe the world…trillions of dollars in debt…trying correcting this American or should I say precisely the white American arrogance first!!

    Embarrassed? Not even slightly.

  • G. Chell

    “Jedd – please describe what form white atonement should take IYO”

    As I have said, you want to get blacks to stop talking about slavery, southern whites should forget the so-called atrocities during the Civil War such as Sherman’s March, the Siege of Vicksburg, etc. and stop waving the confederate flag.

  • G. Chell

    “Again..you’re living in the past. There is no such thing as slavery in America anymore and it would not be right to attempt to correct the wrongs of slavery today by punishing people that has nothing to do with it.”

    Agreed!! But, it would not be wrong to punish people who are alive and who lynched blacks, practised Jim Crow and accumulated wealth through sharecropping and other racist discriminatory practices..yes we need to go after folks who took over the black areas of Tulsa and Rosewood after race riots..and we need to prosecute them and force them to pay reparations…some of them are still alive and enjoying their ill gotten wealth.

    “You say whites protest every attempt to correct the actions of the past yet you seem wholly incapable of understanding the concept of not punishing one person for something their ancestors may have done.”

    Punish the people who benefitted from Jim Crow and who are still alive. The reason Japanese Americans got reparations for internment was because people behind it were still alive. Chinese and Japanese Americans were screwed by the whites ot west. But, they dont need any reparations. The rich Chinese and Japanese from Asia have bought up property in formerly white areas such as Walnut and Cerritos, CA and run these whites out of town. In fact the rich Chinese and Japanese are buying property in Beverly Hills and rebuilding the architecture to look like a Chinese mansion..in Chinese style.

    “No one is denying that there is racial tension in America today but if we were to look at the past and say well the great grandparents of this group of people oppressed the great grandparents of this group of people so they are owed something by the first group, it will only lead to more racial tension and divisiveness. The best solution is as Reggie suggested. To live in the present and deal with new each issue as it arises and all do our best to ensure that this nation provides equal opportunity, not equal results, for all, regardless of race.”

    Address the folks who are alive today who committed the atrocities..includes at least six southern thugs and lowlives who called themselves governors, who are still alive.

    “Until you can stop living in the past and obsessing upon all the negative things that happened, of which you yourself were not directly involved in, it will be hard for reasonable and sincere people to take you seriously.”

    Many of these thugs still live in the present.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    Sorry, lady, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Few, if any, contemporary whites (none I know personally) feel any guilt whatever for slavery, nor are we in need of “facing” anything. Slavery in America is over.

    I don’t remember mentioning guilt in any of my posts. I think that you come to this with your own ideas about what Blacks want from society.

    You insistence on EVERYONE working on race is an indication of your strong state of denial about what are problem is. The problems of race have predominantly come from White Americans. Lets just start there. There is no way to fix this problem (which is huge) if we keep our heads in the sand. Its time for White America to examine what everyone is talking about instead of immediately jumping into defense mode. Do you realise that at no time in history has White society EVER agreed that there is a problem. When we look back in retrospect, we see the sickness quite clearly. However at every stage there were great arguments as to why there is no problem. That is what you are doing Clavos.

    As for why we should be embarrassed, we are in Iraq because Americans did not care to distinguish between one group of Arabs from another. We are there because of are racist views Clavos. The White House know that we would just think “they are all alike” so they felt free to go to a totally different country to bully them. We just ended our evil policy and we have the nerve to tell others how to live, when we fought heavily to maintain or evil ways vehemently for centuries. This is a fact and it makes me flushed to think that we (people like Bush) have no reservations, chastising the world about how to be fair. We should be flushed.

    Perhaps you are not embarrassed because you don’t consider our true history. You float in the haze (lie) of our eternal democracy. You talk about Vietnam when the issue is who we were at home. We were bigots, killers, lynchers, rapists and murderers, all condoned by the government system.

    As for your comments on “Classic Communist self-criticism”… wrong person, wrong era, wrong generation. I’m a gen Xer and have a practical approach towards problem solving. Compartmentalizing and labeling is useless and played a role in supporting ones intellectual prowls but has no place in actually accomplishing anything. We have a big problem and we need to face it head on so that we ALL can move on. America will always have a cancer in its bowels unless we cast out the this demon. Lets OVER talk about it, lets make sure that every child born today knows the gory details of it and the effects of it from one generation to the next so that we never repeat it in any form until its dead and gone.

    The head in the sand approach is failing us. We can be even greater Clavos.

  • Clavos

    .running up a huge debt to foreign countries and arrogantly behaving like the world owes us something while we indeed owe the world…trillions of dollars in debt…

    You clearly don’t understand the nature of such “debt.” Those are bonds and other instruments purchased by other countries as investments precisely because of their confidence in the stability and solidity of the US economy.

    They are “debt” only in the sense that one day they must be bought back, but in the meantime may well change hands multiple times, to be sold by a country holding them to a third country, it happens all the time.

    And, in any case, the national debt has absolutely nothing to do with either slavery or racism.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    Our approach towards other countries has a great deal to do with our racist legacy.

  • Clavos

    Zedd,

    I wasn’t talking about “our approach to other countries.”

  • Zedd

    Please excuse the massive typos. Gazillion tasking going on….

  • Zedd

    Troll

    Atonement would come in the form of introspection and acknowledgement. Over talking about the matter emphasizing the issues of race as opposed to running away. Making your children know about OUR history. Seeing the humanity of every group that is not like you.

    Now as far as the entire country, we do need to continue affirmative action for minority groups to prevent any racist practices which will prevent the assimilation of those groups into society.

  • philbob

    Can’t we just all get along?

  • Clavos

    I don’t remember mentioning guilt in any of my posts. I think that you come to this with your own ideas about what Blacks want from society.

    You’re quibbling, Zedd. You speak of our history of “evil” and of atonement and then say you haven’t “mentioned” guilt. Oh, please…

    It is Whites who have to atone.

    If you have to “atone” for something, by definition you are guilty of it.

    The benefits that you enjoy, the benefits that your ancestors rushed from Europe to enjoy were gained at the detriment of African Americans. Making the awarness of this matter a huge part of our education and consciousness; that we have a history of evil

    Someone created that evil, (wonder who?) if it exists, so, again by definition, they are “guilty” of it.

    You insistence on EVERYONE working on race is an indication of your strong state of denial about what are problem is.

    Where did I say anything about “everyone working” on race??

    Do you realise that at no time in history has White society EVER agreed that there is a problem.

    Not true. Huge numbers of whites have stated there is and has been a problem of racism and have worked to ameliorate it; some have even lost their lives doing so.

    As for why we should be embarrassed, we are in Iraq because Americans did not care to distinguish between one group of Arabs from another. We are there because of are racist views Clavos.

    Oh please. The administration says we are there to fight the terrorists. It’s opponents variously say we are there to protect the oil industry, or so GWB can protect his father’s legacy by finishing what papa started. Take your pick, I don’t care. Racism has NOTHING to do with our involvement in that war.

    Perhaps you are not embarrassed because you don’t consider our true history

    No.

    I’m not embarrassed because what one should with history is learn from it, and grow; not be embarrassed by it. It is what it is, and being embarrassed by it is just stupid.

    As for your comments on “Classic Communist self-criticism”… wrong person, wrong era, wrong generation.

    You might not have intended it that way, but that’s what you were advocating, obviously without even realizing it.

    Lastly: I grew up with an Irish Catholic mother. I know when someone is trying to lay a guilt trip on me; that’s what you’re doing, Zedd, and I’m not buying.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “I grew up with an Irish Catholic mother. I know when someone is trying to lay a guilt trip on me; that’s what you’re doing, Zedd, and I’m not buying.”

    You mean the Irish Catholics stole the Jewish mothers’ “momopoly” on laying guilt trips?

    Newsflash!

    The Executive Secretariat of the Jewish Mothers Guilt Laying Society has just instructed their lawyers.

    “We demand reparations!”

  • http://nightdragon.diaryland.com Mark Edward Manning

    “In fact, he goes the extra mile and suggests that whites owe blacks something. He seems to suggest that each and every white person should resolve black problems in Virginia – as if blacks themselves are unable to do anything … Mr. Williams does everything but admit accountability for himself or blacks in Virginia.”

    Mr. Williams does nothing of the sort. Read his piece a lot more carefully this time: He blames black problems not on white people per se, but white liberals and their minority cohorts who’ve embraced the political correctness that says we can’t punish black criminals too severely and who placed more emphasis on self-esteem than actual logic or empirical learning in school. Williams also suggests that blacks are still enslaved to a point by the patronizing attitude shown towards them by the liberal elite.

    This is what Williams is saying and it’s a perfectly valid point.

  • http://nightdragon.diaryland.com Mark Edward Manning

    STM: “And the pasty-looking poms should get over being an inferior race and bow to the fact that they foolishly sent all the worst people to the best place, thus ensuring that it would become one long party.”

    And how, mate! Amen to that.

  • S.T.M

    Ruvy wrote: “You mean the Irish Catholics stole the Jewish mothers’ “monopoly” on laying guilt trips?”

    That they did, mate … for sure. My mum (Colleen, God bless her) was a Catholic of first-generation Irish background. She used to do the best “passive-aggressive/martyr” I’ve ever seen. My wife’s feeble efforts pale into insignificance beside hers. My grandfather was a hoot, too. A bullheaded Irishman if ever there was one.

    We called her guilt trips “the violence of silence”, but geez, she could cook up a storm.

  • S.T.M

    Thanks Mark … enjoyed our visit to the Antipodes, did we??

  • Nancy

    STM – you’re right: the deports had the last laugh in the end, didn’t they? Still & all, you have a great nation because all those deports worked (or were worked) to death for it. Like the US, it was built w/a lot of blood, sweat, & tears. At least you guys had the common sense never to have had a civil war….

  • http://www.pyramidoftruth.com ASAR

    Should people also get over original sin and stop seeking salvation also? Especially since the original sin happened 6,000 years ago, would it possibily have any effect now? And what about the so-called murder of jesus, should christians just get over it and stop celebrating easter? And jews should get over that egypt trip and stop that silly passover. And what about independence day of 1776 when america ceasec becoming a colony. Should america stop celebrating july the 4th. also see http://www.pyramidoftruth.com and listen to pyramid of truth at http://www.live365.com

  • Arch Conservative

    “The imagined White supremacy ends and White privilege goes down the tube and you really do have to compete on merit for the first time ever. Your dumb kid has to compete with smart minorities and he doesn’t get a break because of his pink skin because no one will care. ”

    You have it backwards Zedd. If everything was equal it would be the dumb minorities who have to stop relying on affirmative action and governement handouts and actually compete based on merit with more qualified white candidates.

  • http://blackslaves ez

    Blacks who are the descendants of those brought to america to be made into slaves have a valid point for reparations. The blacks were/are made into “n—ers” by the caucasians who were/are the slavemasters and their children. Minister Louis Farrakhan gave a definition of “n—er” that explains the condition of blacks born to those decscended from those brought to this part of planet to be made into slaves. “A n—er” is a blackman made in the image of a whiteman.” Blacks(which is most of us) I believe think in the terms of white first when it relates to the historical wrong of slavery. The trans-atlantic slave trade was twofold. first if we were to get to source of the western world’s wealth, it would be traced to Africa and the slaves exported from there. The source of america’s wealth derived from the slaves and the knowledge and subsiquent free labor that they provided. Second the slavetrade bred distrust among the Africans thus eliminating unity among the people. The colonization of Africa was a direct byproduct of the slavetrade and the depopulation of the continent. The blacks in America in effect had their minds erased and were taught completely in the way of the slavemasters and their children. “The Stockholm syndrome” is/was in effect. Blacks were taught to admire white to the detriment of all that is Black. The caucasian in to course of his 6000yr history had effectively replace the Supreme Being in the mind of Blacks. The slavemaster had the power to affectlife/death, health/disease and in effect every consequence of black life. The slavemaster by wanting to be the Master had in effect became a God to the Blacks under the control of whites, it was/is written in the laws that govern America. The 3/5 th clause could only occur if the slavemaster altered the creation of the Creator. The “N—er” was/is the caucasian attempt to supplant God. This process of making a”n—er” made it impossible for the descendants of the chattel slaves to be free of the slavemaster’s children unless reparations in the purest sense is enacted. The whites who want justice for the blacks(which will extend the time of the causasian race on this planet)is to help restore blacks to the independent (land,resources without the interference of whites in lives of the truly emancipated children of the chattel slaves) or accept that justice was here before the making of the caucasian. Justice does not belong to the white race, it was here at the making of the universe and it does not sleep.

  • http://bjungleboard.runboard.com BlackCTzar

    First my answer to you about “getting over slavery,” NO! Emphatically no, I will never get over slavery. But it is so good to see institutionalized racism in its continuance. The fact of the matter is that since this country was founded on the principles of white supremacy (see the original people of this land – what’s left of them) slavery cannot be forgotten about, or, as you put it, “gotten over.”

    Articles such as this, as well as its many postings, are great reminders of how many in this country feel about people who are not white. Liberalism or conservatism in a red, white, and blue (whether horizontal stars and stripes or diagonally crossed) wrapper of one group being superior to another (or in this case all other groups not like them) enjoying the privilege and freedom of walking down the street unhindered, is still racism.

    Can’t get over slavery, not at least until the police get over the unnecessary and natural inclination towards discrimination against Black and brown people. (Oh just watch the racist remarks that statement will elicit)

    Fact is, if you study, I mean really, really study slavery in this country, the 379 years it existed, and studied the 65 years Jim Crow existed after, with the same intensity you studied the history of the Deaf, then maybe, just maybe you will understand why me, and many of my people will never “get over it [slavery].”

    “Even if Mr. Williams had a great, great, great grandfather who was a sharecropper,” — Your facts are backwards. Just to give you a reference point, “sharecroppers” existed after slaver. And Mr. Williams’ (who looks to be about 45) great, great, great grandfather would not have been a sharecropper, but he would have been a slave in the 1700s. We can’t forget about slavery when some of us have spoken to our relatives who were born as slaves.

  • Knotty Ranks

    I’ve read all of your post. Some I agree with and some I don’t. I teach Black Literature and History, so excuse me if my post is long. I face these dilemmas everyday. I’m Black and I can honestly say that I don’t want or need reparations. Yes, I understand that my ancestors worked for free. But, let’s look at the TRUE reality of things. Some of us were sold into slavery by our own people. Some of us were caught. But, this is where the “wanna be gangsta rappers” have it correct. Whatever happened to “ride or die?” We were a nation of warriors. At every given second on a slave vessel, the slaves outnumbered the crew. There were times when the cargo could have attacked and killed everyone who did not look like them. Most of the time, the slaves outnumbered the slave-masters and overseers. Take Nat Turner for instance. He went on a murdering spree. He and a handful of slaves pretty much terrorized three states in three weeks. Imagine what a couple thousand could have done. Eventually Whites would stopped slavery for their own safety. Yes, I know many Blacks would have died. But, in any war casualties are to be expected. Plus, there were Black slave owners who made millions from slavery. No one seems to ever mention them.
    I like the confederate flag. I have a shirt with a confederate flag and under the flag are the words “You’re Welcome.” Slavery provided the foundation on which the South rose and grew. Nations, states, cities, neighborhoods, companies, school systems, etc., survive or fail according to their economy. Slavery was the economy of the South. Without that economy, there would not be a South. No South, no southern heritage. No southern heritage, no flag. Again, you’re most welcome.
    If Blacks really want to be equal, we must forget slavery and focus on the present and the future. We must focus on ourselves. We must support ourselves. We must spend more of our money with ourselves. White folks support each other all of the time. Why don’t we? Stop running to Wal-Mart, Winn-Dixie, Publix, Food Lion, and the like everyday. Go spend some money at that Black-owned grocery store on the corner sometimes. I know a carton of eggs will probably be $5. But, how else are we to become economically independent. Stop crying because you can’t get into the University of Michigan or USC without catching a football. There are high quality Historically Black Colleges and Universities that are capable of preparing you for this world just as much as any White institution. I work with individuals who are graduates from Harvard and Yale, yet when they have a question, they seem to come to little ol’ me. Stop following these so-called leaders Black leaders. Why is it always Black folks who need leaders? Tell me the last time you heard the media or anyone else say “here’s the White leader?” We need to push these drug dealers off of our streets. I don’t have any dealers in my neighborhood. Why? Because the fathers of the neighborhood reminded those baby gangsters who were trying to setup shop, that we have guns too. Speaking of being a father, we need to stop abandoning our children. Deadbeat Dads need to go to jail. Turn them in to the authorities. Even if it is a family member. If you can “skeet” one, you can pay for one. Next, we need to be independent voters. Why are we mostly Democrats? They don’t want us. They come by the church once every four years. They say Hi and we grin. Screw them. Why are we Republicans? They don’t want us. We’re nobody to them. Ask Sean Hannity or Bill O’reilly how much they need Black folks. No, we don’t need our own political party. But, we should make our vote a valuable one and we can’t do that if we show our hand before the game really starts. I have more but I will stop right there.

  • G. Chell

    “You have it backwards Zedd. If everything was equal it would be the dumb minorities who have to stop relying on affirmative action and governement handouts and actually compete based on merit with more qualified white candidates.”

    Comment: Depends on who is a minority. The last I looked which was a minute ago, Asian Americans are not white. If Asian Americans are minorities, Zedd is at least partly right… The imagined White supremacy ends and White privilege goes down the tube and you really do have to compete on merit for the first time ever. Your dumb white kid has to compete with smart Asian Americans (minorities) and she doesn’t get a break because of her pink skin because no one will care. Case in point..follow this link.

    Of course if every minority who succeeds become white in the eyes of the whites it is a different story.

    As this story makes it clear, whites want privilege. When competing against blacks and Hispanics they say only grades and SATs should matter, while the reverse is true while competing against Asians.

  • td

    The author of this article is misinformed. Your assertions are all based on a misunderstanding of the article. Mr. williams basically said that the apology meant nothing to him and apologies such as that are essentially useless. What he says is important is getting rid of crime and improving the citizenry. He focused on Black folks because the apology was to black folks. You people are so ready to say “Get Over it” that you miss the point of everything that is written or spoken regarding slavery or its all-too-real legacy. It is so ironic that the very reason you and people like you say “get over it” is because there has never been an apology for slavery or the government sponsored terrorism that existed in this country and folks like you think that it’s no big deal. That’s sad. Finally, the US sanctioned terrorism against black folks did not end with slavery, it kicked into a higher gear after slavery ended and reconstruction began. That Jim Crow racisim didn’t end until the sixties so I don’t want to hear that 100 years ago crap again. Be honest, you didn’t read Mr. williams article did you?

  • steve

    Issues are more socio-economically based than race based nowadays in the U.S. I wish african americans would live in the present and the future. I wonder if they have ever considered what life would be like if slavery never happened. They would be in third world countries with little political stability. they would be subject to genocide such as in uganda or somalia. They would be plagued with aids and have little to eat. African Americans don’t have it all that bad here.

    I am just asking, What if? Slavery has been over for some time now. African Americans need to stop using slavery as a crutch for their shortcomings TODAY from actions I wasn’t involved in LONG AGO.

  • G. Chell

    Issues are more socio-economically based than race based nowadays in the U.S. I wonder if the whites have ever considered what life would be like if Julius Ceaser had not invaded Germany or Britain. They would be living in caves, white women would be running around naked. The white females would be subject to human sacrifice. They would be eating raw flesh and would not even know how to make a fire.

    I am just asking, What if?

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    When you stop celebrating Passover then we will talk about AAs getting over anything.

    You had the nerve with that first post. Did you even think just how ridiculous it was for you a practicing Jew to talk about forgetting ones history. The entire Bible is about one atrocity after another against Jews. Why don’t we just X Nehemiah or any of the prophets for that matter(the whiners).

    Off course I am being facetious but you get my point. Can you just see the Egyptians rolling their eyes 40yrs later every time the children of Israel would bring up the enslavement and journey through the dessert?

    You are doing the same.

    Kinda different now isn’t it?

  • Zedd

    G. Shell

    Its not just Asian kids. Its African immigrants and their kids too. They are excelling in education yet their statistics get swallowed up. That fact proves that the problem is not Blackness as most would like to think, it is what has happened to African Americans and the remaining racist ideology which supports the evils of the past.

  • Zedd

    knotty

    You are a fraud

    However I will indulge you by highlighting that rock or rap artists have nothing to do with policy.

    You are doing it again, placing the blame of the evolution of a people who were shackled for over 300yrs based on their experiences, on them. The evolution of AAs comes from their situations over time. They are who they are because of who they were. Like EVERYONE ELSE, gangster rappers included.

    As for “Black leaders”, do you feel lead? What makes you feel as if other Blacks feel lead too.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    I like you and you know I do.

    But your post made no sense. You cancelled out your original post by trying to tear down my post.

    What are you on about??

  • Clavos

    Zedd,

    I just re-read both my comments, as well as your response to my first one.

    I canceled out nothing, Zedd. I reinforced and further explained some details in the second comment.

    If you don’t see that, then once more, here are my salient points in a nutshell:

    1. Most contemporary whites don’t feel guilty about slavery in America. We have no reason to. It’s over. It’s history.

    2. There is still a problem with racism today, though things are much better than they were when I was young. Most whites recognize that, and do what they can to ameliorate the situation. Some whites have even given their lives fighting racism.

    3. Our history is NOT evil per se. It has good chapters and bad ones, but it’s history, that’s all. We should learn from it and grow from it. We have no reason to be embarrassed by it.

    That’s it, Zedd. Plain and simple. For the third time.

    No guilt. No embarrassment. Neither accomplishes anything.

  • thetrueandlivinggod

    Blacks shouldn’t expect anything from whites. What Blacks need to do is remember the nature of their enemy. This is what was revealed to us through slavery. That these are a people that would deny the most self evident truth, that blacks were a dignified people worthy of honor and respect. And live in the most perverted hypocrisy, espousing Christianity, while living in fundamental contradiction to it.

    The argument can be made that this is in the nature of all people. But slavery is an everlasting testimony that it is an intrinsic part of the nature of these people. And so when they continue to act in this way with regards to other areas, we should not be surprised. And when they argue and sacrifice their lives and the lives of others to deny truth and maintain hypocrisy we should be prepared to fight against them.

  • D-Wil

    peyote (which is what you must be on)-
    First, tolerance means nothing when applied to issues of discrimination or racism. I’m tolerating your opinion now, but I have no respect for your opinion – get the difference? No progress can be made in relation to the aforementioned issues unless we first replace “tolerance” with respect.

    Now, how do you feel about 14 centuries of enslavement equaling about 140 million deaths? THAT is the physical toll of black enslavement. There are no historical equivalents. But that’s cool. To relegate slavery of black people to the U.S. is a common white, Western apologist’s racist response to slavery in its historical context.

    “Seems to me that blacks in this country have little to complain about, especially with regard to legislative mandates issuing apologies for sins that occurred more than 100 years ago.”

    Institutional racism exists today, Herr Paotie, or does that slip under your National Socialist radar?

    ——————-
    The following comment of yours shows that beyond being a National Socialist (you figure out what it means, Herr Paotie), you are also a liar:

    “You presume too much. I have a white Deaf friend who attended a school for the Deaf, and the lad has no proper English writing skills; lacks the appropriate ability to do simple math, and in general, has very poor communication skills. Of course, we could argue that his ASL background is the culprit here, but that’s for another day and another topic.”

    But wait! In your blatherings you said:

    “I have routinely faced discrimination in many forms, although I seriously doubt a lynching of a deaf person has occurred in recent years. I have faced oppression in various forms, although I don’t complain that all hearing people owe me the regret of thousands of years of dehumanized practices on people like myself (my deafness is genetic, so using Mr. Williams inference, all poor treatment of others in my genetic line deserve some form of apology).”

    So, are you deaf or not Herr Paotie? Don’t lie, now! Here’s the passage to which you responded:

    “I would suggest you do some research into Whiteness Studies, you then will be able to understand the legacy of white privilege and how you, even as a deaf person, are benefiting from that privilege. Theories on color blindness will also be able to help you understand the larger picture as well.”

    Whoops!!!

    So, you’re just a fake, ill-informed, angry, disaffected cracker with nothing better to do than write an inane diatribe concerning subjects of which you have no knowledge, academic, personal, or otherwise. So you resort to the tried-and-true use of pathos masked as righteous as a method to skate around the fact that you are nothing other than a sorrowful cracker with white supremacist leanings if not direct involvement in such groups.

    Silly rabbit. Tricks are for kids.

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “When you stop celebrating Passover then we will talk about AAs getting over anything.
    ……………
    Did you even think just how ridiculous it was for you a practicing Jew to talk about forgetting ones history?”

    Get out that English dictionary, Zedd. You need it more than I. To “get over” is very different from “forgetting.”

    To “get over” means to recover from, as in getting over pneumonia. One does not forget pneumonia afterwards, but hopefully, one gets over it.

    Jews have long gotten over the slavery they endured over three thousand years ago – but we remember it, so as not to forget the lessons learned afterwards. Jews need to do the same thing with the whirlwind of evil that killed six million of us less than 70 years ago. We need to get over it, but not forget it, so as to understand the evil of allowing a dictatorship to spring up and enslave and kill people – like say, Iran, or the Saudi thugdom.

    And American blacks specifically need to do the same regarding the slavery they suffered in what was to become the United States for over ten generations. They need to get over it. But they cannot afford to forget it. They need to remember its sources – wars in east and west Africa and the sale of slaves taken in those wars to Arab and later British slave traders.

    This still goes on in Africa. Wars, slaves taken as booty, and sold to Arab slave traders. But blacks are not held as slaves in the United States or Canada. American blacks need to get over the slavery they suffered at the hands of whites on the North American continent and deal with the present slave traders who oppress their African brothers and sisters – the Arabs (funny how those Arabs keep popping up all over the place, eh?).

    When I see you defending Arab terrorists, it makes me wonder who it is who is forgetting her history – and who it is who yet needs to learn it.

  • G. Chell

    “Its not just Asian kids. Its African immigrants and their kids too. They are excelling in education yet their statistics get swallowed up. That fact proves that the problem is not Blackness as most would like to think, it is what has happened to African Americans and the remaining racist ideology which supports the evils of the past.”

    Absolutely. Blacks in Barbados are smarter than whites in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama combined at least as far as academic achievement is concerned. Yet no one wants to compare the academic achievement of the Caribbean including the Bahamas with those of the southern whites, because it would upset the conventional thinking. So the goal is to focus on Africa.

  • G. Chell

    Now I know why whites want fewer non-white immigrants. If they kept out black immigrants, it would mean more slots for them, especially if Affirmitive Action is abolished…perhaps 400 more slots for white people at Harvard, who then would not have to compete with smarter blacks and of course smarter Asians. If you keep the immigrants out, they can continue living the myth of white supremacy…this is the goal of Tancredo, Hunter, Rohrbacher, Ron Paul and other clowns who are now running for President.

  • G. Chell

    Ladies and gentlemen, let us forget slavery and focus on racism of today like many a good blogger here want…let us read this book written by two white people and address the issues relevant to today…

  • http://blackslaves ez

    The trick of America is that it fooled the majority of us blacks into believing that we “freed” by the benevolent whites during the civil war. Tell me where in the annals of history has the enslavers freed a nation of slaves and the slaves remained in the house of the slavemasters and their children? The latin definition of emancipation pur forth by Minister Louis Farrakhan depicts the condition of Black America today. Emancipation meaning free from the physical bondage of the ruling whites but not free from the control of the ruling whites. The very fact that a white has the nerve to tell blacks what to think is proof that the Minister’s definition of Emancipation is right and correct. I believe that as the caucasian world continues to fall into oblivion the whites will take off the masks of civility and show the fangs of real beasts. A beast will kill all that it can kill until the object that the beast wishes to murder Calls upons his God not the God that the beasts taught the slave to worship. The forgotten supreme being who is of the Black nation is the God of the Blackman wether he wishes to acknowledge it or not. The people who enslaved us will never teach us the truth about our G-d, for to do so would expedite the fall of their civilization, which came into existence after the 6000yr. war to destory black civilization. The beasts of the bible(caucasians) are preparing for war against the blackman in america. The beast cares not for his former slaves no matter how like the beast the slaves becomes. The whites taught blacks everything they know due to the fact that they basically printed or produced most of the information we see and read. Let us as the children of slaves unite and try to treat each other in a manner opposite of the teachings that the slavemaster taught us which is niggerism. We must not forget that the nigger comes from the mind of the caucasian. “A nigger is a blackman made in the image of a white man” He loves what his slavemaster loves and hates what his slavemaster hates, which is himself and his kind.

  • troll

    IMO modern racism is the offspring of our economic relationship…divide and conquer – compete with each other rather than cooperate

    remember – we’re all free to be slaves of owners and work at their pleasure and for their profit

    you want to get rid of racism – ?

    start by getting rid of the system of production on which it is based

  • http://nightdragon.diaryland.com Mark Edward Manning

    Thanks Mark … enjoyed our visit to the Antipodes, did we??

    Never been there, Stan. However, I don’t need to in order to know that you’re right. Taking prisoners away from this chilly little island to a much, much, much larger island where it’s always warm — and the British thought THAT was punishment?!

    It really makes you shake your head in bemusement.

    Party on, you lucky people.

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    What has gotten lost here between the whining about racism and the author’s call to blacks to get over slavery is that the author is deaf. And deaf people have suffered far longer than blacks have for being deaf.

    The author neither asked for a hand nor for a handout. He asked blacks to get over their own whining about slavery to see that others. like deaf people, have suffered as well, and suffered far longer than they have. Even if he misinterpreted the intentions of the writer he criticizes in his article, my characterization of what Paotie has written stands.

    It gets tiresome reading about Louis Farrakhan whining about the white devils. If whites are so terrible, then blacks following Farrakhan should quit their whining, leave the States and go set up shop in Africa and take all their followers with them.

    I didn’t whine about America. I left. All the complainers should follow my example. If I hadn’t left America for MY homeland, I couldn’t say that. But I did. I talk my talk and walk my walk and both are the same…

    Anybody care to take up the challenge of Marcus Garvey? Freedom awaits you.

  • Meta

    Paotie, I think you should read the article again and reassess your ability to comprehend the English language. Mr. Williams was not asking for an appology for slavery. In fact he specifically states, “in any case, they should know that their actions mean little in dealing with the day-to-day plight of many black Virginians — which has nothing to do with slavery”.

    He not only does not ask for an apology but he even agrees with you that slavery has nothing to do with the plight of blacks in Virginia. He is simply saying that rather than drafting apologies through legislation, they need to invest their time into fixing the problems that blacks in Virginia are facing. Yeah he focuses on the black plight, but it makes sense within the context of the article.

    If you really wanted to air your fraustration about being deaf then by all means do so, but do not disguise the article as an attack on Mr. Williams.

  • Arch Conservative

    So every black person in Barbados is smarter than every white person in the South?

    What is this irrational loathing you have for all southerners G Chell? Despite your attempts to paint all southerners as confederate flag waving klan members… that is not the reality.

    “Now I know why whites want fewer non-white immigrants. If they kept out black immigrants, it would mean more slots for them, especially if Affirmitive Action is abolished…perhaps 400 more slots for white people at Harvard, who then would not have to compete with smarter blacks and of course smarter Asians. If you keep the immigrants out, they can continue living the myth of white supremacy…this is the goal of Tancredo, Hunter, Rohrbacher, Ron Paul and other clowns who are now running for President.”

    Get it straight [Personal attack deleted]. Most Americans, regardless of their race, oppose ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION regardless of the race of the illegals. I know you leftists like to use semantics to distort the reality of the situation and I shouldn’t expect any honesty from the likes of you.

    With regard to Affirmative Action. I as a white want to see it abolished not because I can’t compete on merit with minorities but because I can’t compete on the basis of race or color, the only basis considered by AA, with minorities. Affirmative action is racial discrimination, pure and simple.

  • G. Chell

    “So every black person in Barbados is smarter than every white person in the South?”

    Comment: Now where did I say that?

    “What is this irrational loathing you have for all southerners G Chell? Despite your attempts to paint all southerners as confederate flag waving klan members…that is not the reality.”

    Comment: Irrational? Voting for the GOP in large numbers..the party gets in because 90% of these morons vote for these guys by putting out commercials such as “I met Harold at the Playboy Party”? The whole mess in Iraq is mostly due to white southerners, because they put these guys in power, defeated statesmen such as Max Cleland…I say let us have a surge. Let us round up all white College GOP, both men and women, give them all ammunition and send these morons to Iraq..at least then these morons would come to their senses….and you call me irrational?

    “Get it straight [Personal attack deleted]. Most Americans, regardless of their race, oppose ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION regardless of the race of the illegals. I know you leftists like to use semantics to distort the reality of the situation and I shouldn’t expect any honesty from the likes of you.”

    Nobody called you any names or for that matter did not call white southerners any names. It shows your level of culture and civility and perhaps tells us more about white civilization more than anything else. Calling everyone a commie or leftist is another common ploy when your assertions are false. White Americans oppose legal immigration as well…forget legal immigration, heck, they even oppose skilled immigration…if you dont believe me go to different websites on immigration and check out the immigration news. Why? Very simple. Because they dont want intelligent blacks from countries such as Barbados competing with incompetent whites. If they compete only with American blacks they would have additional slots at universities such as Harvard and Yale. As it is, these whites are furious at Asians running them out of town in UCLA and Berkeley.

    “With regard to Affirmative Action. I as a white want to see it abolished not because I can’t compete on merit with minorities but because I can’t compete on the basis of race or color, the only basis considered by AA, with minorities. Affirmative action is racial discrimination, pure and simple.”

    Comment: The fact is the whites cannot compete with certain minorities if it is purely on merit..so they cut and run..as I said the whites want privilege. When they compete with blacks they say no AA, but only scores. When they compete with Asians they strongly disagree with using scores and they suggest that we should look at the whole person…in other words, give me the job or a place in a university because we happen to be white…so no, most whites are not competing on merit. America has never been a meritocracy when it came to employment, and it never will be one. So get over the high horse!!

  • Arch Conservative

    I called you names because I’m sick of your bullshit G. Chell.

    You’re nothing but a deluded run of the Mill leftist spouting typical delusional leftist talking points…..all white southerners are ignorant racists, all Republicans are war mongering racists, all white AMericans do everything they can to keep down anyone who isn’t white, confederate flag this confederate flag that….. blah, blah, blah.

    You’re an idiot!

  • td

    G. Chell,

    You really believe that you are smarter than an African American simply because of where you are from? I guess massa has taught you well!

  • A Concerned Citizen

    OK, I’m speaking both as a white and as a human being: I had nothing to do with slavery. I have nothing to do with any of the racial abuses that have ever occurred. I am not guilty. I have nothing for which to atone.

    That said, the lessons of the past should never be forgotten. Slavery, and racism in general, is a terrible thing. I agree that any hint of racism should be stamped out — but legitimately. Not through crying about the “white devil” and demanding reparations, but by teaching our young about tolerance and the equality of men. Neither accusations nor demands can unite us. . . only cooperation and common will to conquer our problems.

    That said, I’m sure everyone would agree that, out of every ethnic group kicked around by the White Devils, the Native Americans got the worst deal. I don’t hear them whining.

  • A Concerned Citizen

    IMO modern racism is the offspring of our economic relationship…divide and conquer – compete with each other rather than cooperate

    Troll has it right. The most basic problem with the world is that we’re competing instead of cooperating.

  • Blair

    Knowing that free blacks as well as whites owned slaves(some of the South’s biggest slave owners were free black men)might help people deal with slavery. The percentage of blacks who owned slaves was small, but so was the percentage of whites who owned slaves.

    The ancestors of most white Americans immigrated to the United States long after slavery had been abolished, and many of them were descendants of people who had been slaves in the Old World. The word “slave” derives from the word “Slavic,” or eastern European. The original 13 colonies did as some white slaves–not to be confused with indentured servants.

    Slavery did not last hundreds of years in the United States. The nation abolished the slave trade, which was a global insitution, within one lifetime of its founded and abolished slavery iself within two lifetimes (Men who were alive during the Civil War knew George Washington. Robert E. Lee’s wife was Washignton’s grandaughter.)

    The slave traders did not raid African villages to capture and enslave men, women and children. They pruchased slaves from powerful African tribes that had controled the “supply side” of the slave traded since long before the European disovery of America. In other words, the ancestors of African Americans were slaves or trade slavers on the African side of the Atlantic.

    African Americans enjoy a much higher standard of living than Africans whose ancestors were not transported to the United States. This makes the beneficiaries rather than victims of the slave trade. However, they are no equal beneficiaries. We should continue affirmative action programs for a few more generations to make up for the decades of Jim Crow laws in the South and defacto segration in the North, but limit it to African Americans, the people it was designed to benefit. Now that Hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and non-Hispanic white females are acounted as minorites, about 80 percent of the population is eligible for affirmative action.

  • G. Chell

    “You really believe that you are smarter than an African American simply because of where you are from? I guess massa has taught you well!”

    No. If you want to know, you can well say I am in your words a massa…racism in this country has contributed to the underdevelopment of African American skills, while in places such as Barbados, that has not been the case.

  • G. Chell

    “You’re nothing but a deluded run of the Mill leftist spouting typical delusional leftist talking points…..all white southerners are ignorant racists, all Republicans are war mongering racists, all white AMericans do everything they can to keep down anyone who isn’t white, confederate flag this confederate flag that….. blah, blah, blah.”

    Truth hurts doesn’t it? Never said all..call me leftist or call me a racist as someone else did. If I am called both terms, I must be talking common sense. Never said all…cant you read English? Where did I say all white southerners? Perhaps you need to learn to read and speak proper English before telling Hispanics to learn English and assimilate. Did not 90% of southern whites vote for the GOP? The GOP got us in this mess in Iraq…they are the idiots along with the southern whites….cant even run a proper war. morons!! If you want to be a war monger, you need to have some brains. The current group does not have any. The southern whites and the paleos will whine and cry about how bad the war in Iraq is going, but will they get rid of congressmen such as Lyn Westmoreland and Marsha Blackburn who got us in this mess? I bet you they wont. Will these congressmen or the college GOP go to the war front to fight? The answer is no. Marsha Blackburn is so timid that she will run when the first gunfire is heard…but she will vote to send the young men and women to war. This is the reality. Prove me wrong. If you cannot and resort to name calling, you have nothing to back your assertions and you are..I will be very civil here…ArmChair Conservative with Arch being the first two letters of Arm anad Chair combined.

    You’re an idiot!

  • G. Chell

    “Now that Hispanics, Asians, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans and non-Hispanic white females are acounted as minorites, about 80 percent of the population is eligible for affirmative action.”

    Historically the white females were the major beneficiaries of affirmitive action. Now that they have achieved parity with white males, they dont want competition from minorities including women who belong to minority groups.

  • Lumpy

    If you ignore the socialist spin it included, troll’s earlier comment hit the mark. Divisions of race are meaningless in the US today. The real division is between the haves and have nots, or more accurately the wills and will nots, as in those who will work and do whatever it takes to succeed and those who will not give their all and instead expect to have the good things of life handed to them by the government.

  • sr

    THIS SHIT WILL NEVER END UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD. JOM#4 say’s to Ruvy. “Jews have to move beyound the evil the Nazi’s did to them. At least JOM you know it was evil. JOM, you need to get over being a dumb fuck. Did you know the only good liberal is a dead liberal.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    I promise you that if Jews were still in Egypt and did not have the same economic standing as Arabs and were ignored when they request for the nation to at least face the history, they would not be OVER it.

    America is not over its racist past, how can the victims of it get over it? That is a strange request don’t you think?

  • Zedd

    Arch

    With regard to Affirmative Action. I as a white want to see it abolished not because I can’t compete on merit with minorities but because I can’t compete on the basis of race or color, the only basis considered by AA, with minorities. Affirmative action is racial discrimination, pure and simple.

    I don’t think you understand that people don’t want people who are not like them, especially Blacks near them.

    If affirmative action was so impactful shouldn’t the economic condition of Blacks be much better?

  • Zedd

    Blair

    Slavery began in 1619 and ended in 1865. Jim Crowe ended in the 1960’s. Discrimination off course, still exists. What are you on about??

    In 1860 384,000 Whites had slaves. Most had only twenty slaves. 3700 Blacks had slaves. Most had one or two slaves. Is this an issue to really comment on?

    African Americans enjoy a much higher standard of living than Africans whose ancestors were not transported to the United States.

    So do most Whites compared to Europeans of their class. Also considering that Africans have been here longer than most Whites and have contributed to this country from its inception….. Again what are you on about??

  • Zedd

    Lumpy

    Divisions of race are meaningless in the US today

    If you are a White male and have no real concept of discrimination. NO CONCEPT.

    How about asking questions instead of lecturing. You know no more about what minorities go through than what its like to live in India in the middle of the monsoon.

  • Blair

    Zedd: Slavery did not begin in 1619. Slavery predates written history in all cultures and on all continents, including North America. The largest slave market that ever existed in the Americas was one the Aztec maintained near Mexico City in pre-Columbian times. (European settlements in the Southwestern United States, by the way, are much older than European settlements along the Eastern Seaboard. For example, Spanish settlers bought their slaves with them when they founded Santa Fe, New Mexico, in the 1500s.)

    However, slavery did not exist in the United States until 1776 because the United States did not exist until 1776. Slavery lasted less than 100 years in the United States. Since the 13th Amendment did not abolish slavery on sovereign tribal lands, the U.S. goverment ended slavery from purchasing slaves from individual tribes and setting them free. The Cherokee were the last to give up thier slaves. Incidentely, the Cherokee Nation voted just a few weeks ago to deny tribal membership to the descendants of Cherokee slaves.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    You are trying to hard.

    Your youth is showing.

  • Clavos

    Blair

    You are trying to hard.

    Your youth is showing.

    You’re kidding.

    Blair just gave you a very good and concise historical analysis of slavery in North America, and the best response you can come up with is “You are trying to (sic) hard. Your youth is showing”??

    How did Blair’s comment reveal “youth”?

    How in the world do you expect to be taken seriously, Zedd?

  • G. Chell

    “I don’t think you understand that people don’t want people who are not like them, especially Blacks near them.”

    Comment: As I said white women have been the major beneficiaries of the Affirmitive Action largesses..one more thing..if the employers have to fill the minority quotas, they will hire white looking Hispanic women. In the late 1990s, the EEOC investigated a firm in the north east through undercover activities as it did not have any minority in a field where Asians usually dominate. To their dismay the EEOC found that the most of the “white” women with German and Italian sounding names were indeed originally from Argentina..and at least two of them had grandfathers who were Nazi soldiers. However, according to US law these were considered Hispanic although they were whiter and blonder than many white American females we run into every day. Also many international organizations will not hire Americans unless they are white…one of them especially, based in Manila, the Phillippines.

  • G. Chell

    One more thing…once the employers start hiring white and white looking minority women around them, my experience suggests that they will not hire any minority men…because the old mindset still exists..not to let minority men near white women….then again, my experience is in the south and I live in Virginia.

  • http://nopcthoughtshere.blogspot.com NoPCThoughts

    How about some apologies for slavery from the African Nations involved?

    As far as I know only Ghana has apologised for its part in the slave trade. Arabs, who still practice slavery of Black peoples even now e.g. Mauritania, the Sudan or Mali, have never apologised for being slavers.

    In the 15th to 17th century an estimated 1.5 Million Europeans were shipped to the North African slave markets. Black “Moors” (The “BlackaMoors” of Shakesperean terminology) from North Africa regularly slave raided Europe as far as Cornwall (England) as late as the 17th century. In 1627 AD Moors kidnapped 400 men and women from Iceland. Dorset historian David Burnett reports that in 1638 AD, the corsairs even pillaged Poole (England) and the last recorded raid was 1720 AD.

    I quote Thomas Sowell, a black sociologist, author and columnist, who put this whole issue into perspective.

    “Blacks were not enslaved because they were black but because they were available. Slavery has existed in the world for thousands of years. Whites enslaved other whites in Europe for centuries before the first black was brought to the Western hemisphere. Asians enslaved Europeans. Asians enslaved other Asians. Africans enslaved other Africans, and indeed even today in North Africa, blacks continue to enslave blacks”.

  • Blair

    Most people who participate in the affirmative action debate appear oblivious to the fact that Hispanic Americans have surpassed African Americans to become the nation’s largest minority group. As such, they are becoming the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action. Hispanics may be of any race, of course, but the majority of Hispanic Americans are Mexican Americans. They tend to identify themselves as white. (The recent mapping of the human genome enabled DNA analysis that reveals Mexican Americans are typically about 60 percent European and 40 percent Native American.)

    I live in a border city of about 750,000 people. Slightly more than 80 percent of the city’s residents are Hispanic. The school districts are even more predominantly Hispanic. Marraige between Hispanics and “Anglos,” as non-Hispanic whites are called, is common. The offspring of these unions (think Cameron Diaz) are also eligible for affirmative action. Once the city’s African Americans, Native Americans, Asians, and non-Hispanic white females are counted, about 95 percent of the population is eligible for affirmative action. Hispanics are already the majority in California and will soon be the majority in Texas, the nation’s two most populous states. This domographic shift is making a mockery of affirmative action programs that were originally intended to benefit African Americans.

  • Blair

    To Zedd: At age 62, I may be much younger than you, but my mother tells me that a great, great uncle who fought in the Civil War once held me in his lap. I once dated the daughter of a man whose father–not grandfather–had been a slave. The family still lived on land the slave’s owner deeded to him following the Civil War.

  • Maurice

    Meta #114

    at least you and Clavos can read an understand what Prof. Williams wrote.

    Thankyou. Thankyou. Thankyou.

  • Maurice

    BTW I really hate the title of this article.

    Should we also “get over” 9/11?

    How about Pearl Harbor?

    Why should we remember the Alamo?

    As a black man I will never “get over” slavery. I don’t need an apology. I don’t need special favors. Just don’t tell me to “get over it”.

    M

  • G. Chell

    “In the 15th to 17th century an estimated 1.5 Million Europeans were shipped to the North African slave markets. Black “Moors” (The “BlackaMoors” of Shakesperean terminology) from North Africa regularly slave raided Europe as far as Cornwall (England) as late as the 17th century. In 1627 AD Moors kidnapped 400 men and women from Iceland. Dorset historian David Burnett reports that in 1638 AD, the corsairs even pillaged Poole (England) and the last recorded raid was 1720 AD.”

    I heard most of these were white women..is that true or is it just heresay?

  • G. Chell

    “I live in a border city of about 750,000 people. Slightly more than 80 percent of the city’s residents are Hispanic. The school districts are even more predominantly Hispanic. Marraige between Hispanics and “Anglos,” as non-Hispanic whites are called, is common. The offspring of these unions (think Cameron Diaz) are also eligible for affirmative action. Once the city’s African Americans, Native Americans, Asians, and non-Hispanic white females are counted, about 95 percent of the population is eligible for affirmative action. Hispanics are already the majority in California and will soon be the majority in Texas, the nation’s two most populous states. This domographic shift is making a mockery of affirmative action programs that were originally intended to benefit African Americans.”

    Comment: Hispanic is an American invention when they had to find the buffer against blacks. Creat another minority and dilute affirmative action for African Americans..however, white women were and are the main beneficiaries of Affirmative Action…an international organization based in Asia told me in the early part of this decade that they would not hire any American unless it is a woman, ie., a white woman…so you go to these international organizations the entire American delegation is white, and as many affirmative action naysayers insist, these white women beneficiaries were not definitely the best qualified.

  • Blair

    It’s true that the Moors prized white slaves, particulary females. (They were early diversity advocates.)The Moors were of mixed African and Arabic ancestery. They help reintroduce slavery to Europe, where it had largely vanished, by conquering and ruling Spain for about 400 years. Islamic law permitted them to enslave Christians (Europeans) and Africans who were non-Muslim. The Moorish conquest is the reason many Hispanic Americans have Arabic surnames.

  • G. Chell

    “Hispanics are already the majority in California and will soon be the majority in Texas, the nation’s two most populous states.”

    No!! Hispanics + Asian Americans + African Americans are the majority in California, if you count both citizens and immigrants, both leagal and illegal. And these three groups together would end up making whites the minority in Texas. But, that does not help. Unless the moron legal immigrants who insist on retaining their current citizenship, become US citizens, whites will be the majority voting population for decades to come in both states…and more immigrants get in, legal and illegal, they are counted towards the census and more powerful these whites become. If non-citizens were not counted in the 1990 census and subsequent reapportionment, Bush would not have won in 2000 and southern whites would not have been as powerful as they have been until last year…these southern whites love these immigrants both legal and illegal for one reason…they get them more seats in the US House of Reps and more electoral votes at the expense of states such as Wisconsin and Indiana….these immigrants are useful to a certain extent as long as they dont become citizens…that is why state legislator Peter Berman is trying to keep it that way by trying to pass laws to directly overturn the 14th amendment or get the Supremes to overturn the 14th Amendment…denying citizenship to babies born in the US soil even if one parent was illegal…great family values they preach? No, but great racial politics. As I said, illegals are great as far as increasing their electoral clout is concerned…but not if they become citizens and vote.

  • Blair

    To G. Chell:

    Hispanic-Americans will soon outnumber non-Hispanic whites in California and Texas. They will go from being the largest minority group to being the largest ethnic/racial group in sheer numbers.

    As it ages, the Anglo population in Texas is declining in actual numbers as well as a percentage of the population. The Hispanic population is much younger than the Anglo population and has more children per household than Anglos. Meanwhile, immmigration, legal as well as illegal, is almost 100-percent Hispanic.

    Several years ago, a court case banned race-based college admissions in Texas. The state reacted by adopting the 10-percent solution, which guarantees admission to any student who graduates in the top 10-percent of his high school class. This has produce a signifcant increase in the number of Hispanics enrolled in the University of Texas system because so many of the states large urban high schools are predominantly Hispanic. The impact would have been even greater except the nearly 50 percent of Hispanics drop out of high school. The 10-percent policy, which I favor, may lessen the dropout rate. However, now that the Supreme Court has ruled universities may use race as a factor in college admissions, the University of Texas in considering supplimenting the 10-percent forumula with race-based admissions.

    Support for affirmative action programs will probably grown as demographics continue to shift. Minority rights will simply become majority rights

    Texas has relatively few Asians and many of them come from ethnic groups (Vietamese) not noted for superior academic performance. This is in contrast to Calfornia where Asians make up the majority of students on the state’s flagship campuses even though they have to outscore other racial groups, including non-Hispanic whites, to gain admission.

  • mj

    it’s time for blacks to get over slavery…YES, YES, YES!!! we all have ancestors that dealt with slavery.

    being Native American it’s all too fresh–we’re talking up to the late 1800s. we we’re not considered citizen of OUR OWN country till the mid 1940s.

    we have yet to be apolozied or THANKED from whites, blacks, mexicans and all other races that helped with the almost extinction of our Indigenous race.

    you all should be thankful for the free country you live in…TODAY!!! you can share with your children what happened to your ancestors but not to continue day in and day out. that is what promotes racism in our country.

    my opinion… i like black people that have gone beyond color and slavery. it can happen.

  • STM

    It’s just time for all Americans to get colour blind, I reckon … especially now.

  • Zedd

    Clavos and Blair

    The issue is about the legacy of slavery and its impact on AAs.

    The first 20 people made it off of the slave ship 1619 did not care what legal status or documentation those who purchased them had. The effects of slavery began then. Some say even earlier.

    Lets focus gentlemen. The focus is on AAs and whether they should forget. You cant forget something that has been more a part of your history than not. The topic was not on how long America has been a recognized nation. However, the earliest known use of the name America was in 1506 if we must waddle in your pointless argument.

  • Zedd

    …. It will probably be asked, Why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the state, and thus save the expense of supplying, by importation of white settlers, the vacancies they will leave? Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; ten thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinctions which nature has made; and many other circumstances, will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions, which will probably never end but in the extermination of the one or the other race. – To these objections, which are political, may be added others, which are physical and moral. The first difference which strikes us is that of colour. – Whether the black of the negro resides in the reticular membrane between the skin and scarf-skin, or in the scarf-skin itself; whether it proceeds from the colour of the blood, the colour of the bile, or from that of some other secretion, the difference is fixed in nature, and is as real as if its seat and cause were better known to us. And is this difference of no importance? Is it not the foundation of a greater or less share of beauty in the two races? Are not the fine mixtures of red and white, the expressions of every passion by greater or less suffusions of colour in the one, preferable to that eternal monotony, which reigns in the countenances, that immovable veil of black which covers all the emotions of the other race? Add to these, flowing hair, a more elegant symmetry of form, their own judgment in favour of the whites, declared by their preference of them, as uniformly as is the preference of the Oranootan for the black women over those of his own species. The circumstance of Superior beauty, is thought worthy attention in the propagation of our horses, dogs, and other domestic animals; why not in that of man? Besides those of colour, figure, and hair, there are other physical distinctions proving a difference of race. They have less hair on the face and body. They secrete less by the kidneys, and more by the glands of the skin, which gives them a very strong and disagreeable odour. This greater degree of transpiration renders them more tolerant of heat, and less so of cold than the whites. Perhaps too a difference of structure in the pulmonary apparatus, which a late ingenious experimentalist has discovered to be the principal regulator of animal heat, may have disabled them from extricating, in the act of inspiration, so much of that fluid from the outer air, or obliged them in expiration, to part with more of it. They seem to require less sleep. A black after hard labour through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present..- When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them. In general, their existence appears to participate more of sensation than reflection. To this must be ascribed their disposition to sleep when abstracted from their diversions, and unemployed in labour. An animal whose body is at rest, and who does not reflect, must be disposed to sleep of course. Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous. It would be unfair to follow them to Africa for this investigation. — Thomas Jefferson

  • Zedd

    Many of our children and adults don’t know THIS American history. How can we move on when we don’t know what we are moving on from?

    We will consider them here, on the same stage with the whites, and where the facts are not apocryphal on which a judgment is to be formed. It will be right to make great allowances for the difference of condition, of education, of conversation, of the sphere in which they move. Many millions of them have been brought to, and born in America. Most of them indeed have been confined to tillage, to their own homes, and their own society: yet many have been so situated, that they might have availed themselves of the conversation of their masters; many have been brought up to the handicraft arts, and from that circumstance have always been associated with the whites. Some have been liberally educated, and all have lived in countries where the arts and sciences are cultivated to a considerable degree, and have had before their eyes samples of the best works from abroad. The Indians, with no advantages of this kind, will often carve figures on their pipes not destitute of design and merit. They will crayon out an animal, a plant, or a country, so as to prove the existence of a germ in their minds which only wants cultivation. They astonish you with strokes of the most sublime oratory; such as prove their reason and sentiment strong, their imagination glowing and elevated. But never yet could I find that a black had uttered a thought above the level of plain narration; never saw even an elementary trait of painting or sculpture. In music they are more generally gifted than the whites with accurate ears for tune and time, and they have been found capable of imagining a small catch.

    – Thomas Jefferson, Slave Owner, Libertarian, Founding Father

  • Zedd

    Whether they will be equal to the composition of a more extensive run of melody, or of complicated harmony, is yet to be proved. Misery is often the parent of the most affecting touches in poetry. Among the blacks is misery enough, God knows, but no poetry. Love is the peculiar oestrum of the poet. Their love is ardent, but it kindles the senses only, not the imagination. Religion indeed has produced a Phyllis Whately but it could not produce a poet. The compositions published under her name are below the dignity of criticism. The heroes of the Dunciad are to her, as Hercules to the author of that poem. Ignatius Sancho has approached nearer to merit in composition; yet his letters do more honour to the heart than the head. They breathe the purest effusions of friendship and general philanthropy, and show how great a degree of the latter may be compounded with strong religious zeal. He is often happy in the turn of his compliments, and his style is easy and familiar, except when he affects a Shandean fabrication of words. But his imagination is wild and extravagant, escapes incessantly from every restraint of reason and taste, and, in the course of its vagaries, leaves a tract of thought as incoherent and eccentric, as is the course of a meteor through the sky. His subjects should often have led him to a process of sober reasoning: yet we find him always substituting sentiment for demonstration. Upon the whole, though we admit him to the first place among those of his own colour who have presented themselves to the public judgment, yet when we compare him with the writers of the race among whom he lived and particularly with the epistolary class, in which he has taken his own stand, we are compelled to enrol him at the bottom of the column. This criticism supposes the letters published under his name to be genuine, and to have received amendment from no other hand; points which would not be of easy investigation. The improvement of the blacks in body and mind, in the first instance of their mixture with the whites, has been observed by every one, and proves that their inferiority is not the effect merely of their condition of life. We know that among the Romans, about the Augustan age especially, the condition of their slaves was much more deplorable than that of the blacks on the continent of America. The two sexes were confined in separate apartments, because to raise a child cost the master more than to buy one. Cato, for a very restricted indulgence to his slaves in this particular, took from them a certain price. But in this country the slaves multiply as fast as the free inhabitants. Their situation and manners place the commerce between the two sexes almost without restraint. The same Cato, on a principle of oeconomy, always sold his sick and superannuated slaves. He gives it as a standing precept to a master visiting his farm, to sell his old oxen, old wagons, old tools, old and diseased servants, and every thing else become useless. . . . The American slaves cannot enumerate this among the injuries and insults they receive. It was the common practice to expose in the island Esculapius, in the Tyber, diseased slaves, whose cure was like to become tedious. The emperor Claudius, by an edict, gave freedom to such of them as should recover, and first declared that if any person chose to kill rather than expose them, it should be deemed homicide. The exposing them is a crime of which no instance has existed with us; and were it to be followed by death, it would be punished capitally. We are told of a certain Vedius Pollio, who, in the presence of Augustus, would have given a slave as food to his fish, for having broken a glass. With the Romans, the regular method of taking the evidence of their slaves was under torture. Here it has been thought better never to resort to their evidence. When a master was murdered, all his slaves, in the same house, or within hearing, were condemned to death. Here punishment falls on the guilty only, and as precise proof is required against him as against a freeman. Yet notwithstanding these and other discouraging circumstances among the Romans, their slaves were often their rarest artists. They excelled too in science, insomuch as to be usually employed as tutors to their masters’ children. Epictetus, Terence, and Phaedrus, were slaves. But they were of the race of whites. It is not their condition then, but nature, which has produced the distinction. Whether further observation will or will not verify the conjecture, that nature has been less bountiful to them in the endowments of the head, I believe that in those of the heart she will be found to have done them justice. That disposition to theft with which they have been branded, must be ascribed to their situation, and not to any depravity of the moral sense. The man, in whose favour no laws of property exist, probably feels himself less bound to respect those made in favour of others. When arguing for ourselves, we lay it down as a fundamental, that laws, to be just, must give a reciprocation of right; that, without this, they are mere arbitrary rules of conduct, founded in force, and not in conscience: and it is a problem which I give to the master to solve, whether the religious precepts against the violation of property were not framed for him as well as his slave? And whether the slave may not as justifiably take a little from one, who has taken all from him, as he may slay one who would slay him? That a change in the relations in which a man is placed should change his ideas of moral right or wrong, is neither new, nor peculiar to the colour of the blacks. Homer tells us it was so 2600 years ago.

    TJ

  • Zedd

    I wont bore you any further. Do your own research and read the rest.

    Its important to see what founding ideas support our current attitudes, ALL of them. Not just the glossy, sentimental ones.

    Jefferson had 187 slaves. They built Monticello

  • Clavos

    Zedd says:

    The focus is on AAs and whether they should forget. You cant forget something that has been more a part of your history than not. The topic was not on how long America has been a recognized nation. However, the earliest known use of the name America was in 1506 if we must waddle in your pointless argument.

    Not sure why you addressed this to me. I never said AAs should forget.

    What I DID say was that I feel no responsibility nor guilt for slavery. I said it’s over (in the US, not worldwide) and done with. It’s history.

    I also said that we do still have a problem with racism, which goes both ways, and that we need to continue to teach children (white and black) to be color blind from birth, in an ongoing effort to resolve that issue one day.

    AAs shouldn’t “forget” slavery; any more than Jews should forget the Holocaust. It’s an important part of your history.

  • troll

    Tabooitize Intraracial Breeding

  • Blair

    The original intent of affirmative action was to compensate African Americans not only for slavery but for decades of Jim Crow laws in the South and defacto segregation in the North. However,the goals of affirmative action have shifted to “diversity,” the notion that each ethnic, racial and gender group should be proportionately represented on colleges campuses and every strata of the economy. Affirmative action is no longer linked to past racial injustices. (As Hispanics, Governor Jeb Bush’s children are every bit as eligible for affirmative action as African American children.)

    What counts today is whether a specific racial, ethinic or gender group is under representated or over represented. For example, affrimative action works against Asian Americans whose superior academic performance makes them over represented on college campuses. They have to score higher than other groups–including non-Hispanic whites–to gain admission. It works against non-Hispanics whites, who are over represented on most campuses. It works in favor of African Americans and Hispanic Americans,who have replaced African Americans as the nation’s largest minority group. Now that more women than men attend college, affirmative action is beginning to work in favor of males on campuses where women are over represented.

    Only four states, California, Texas, Florida and Michigan, have banned affirmative action in college admissions. Texas and Florida have replaced affirmative action by guaranteeing admission to all students who rank in the top percent of their high school graduating classes. This increases minority enrollment since so many urban school districts are predominantly minority. In California, which has only outreach programs to compensate for the absence of affirmative action, Asian Americans no make up nearly 50 perecent of the student body at the state’s flagship universities. Non-Hispanic whites, Hispanics and African Americans are under represented. The likely result is that California will eventually restore affirmative action to “level the playing field.”

  • Nancy

    Zedd, I don’t know how you can conclude that AA history is “unknown” in the US, because it’s certainly taught fairly universally in all the elementary & secondary public schools I’ve ever known, heard of, or read about. That’s where I got all my classes in Black history, art, music, lit, etc. & that’s how I acquired my collection of AA bios, etc. The kids in our MD schools get it in large doses, for 12 years. It’s memorialized further, nationally, by Black History Month, Martin Luther King day, Juneteenth, Kwanzaa, & innumerable other occasions. This being the case, it would seem to me that reparation of the sort you specified above has already taken place. MOST Americans are very aware of AA history. Those few that aren’t are those that didn’t get much out of school regardless, & they’re ignorant about most other matters, too.

    I agree with Ruvy’s contention that there’s a difference between remembrance & getting over it, altho I disagree that Jews have gotten over their adverse past experiences, since they seem to me to make a fetish out of what they suffered even in the very far past, possibly in myth only. They’re the only group I know that makes a holiday/celebration out of persecution that ended 4,000 years ago; so they are hardly in a position to tell AAs to let anything go.

    Thank you, Blair, for your interesting & detailed rejoinders & succinct summations of history. You pointed out details that few (even AAs themselves) are aware of or fail to mention, such as Arabs & African tribes themselves being the worst perpetrators of slavery & providers of slaves to whites, as well as the fact that many freedmen themselves owned slaves, particularly in the New Orleans region; & that actually very, very few whites owned slaves. Most did not. And as you pointed out, most whites today ‘arrived’ ancestrally speaking, well after slavery had been abolished, & came from ‘slave’ conditions themselves. My own forebears were serfs in Russia. Anyone who’s ever done any reading about their conditions there is aware they lived just as grimly – & restrictedly – as did blacks here in the US – & they lived that way right up until 1917 or so. My ancestors ‘belonged’ to the estate they lived/worked on/for. They got no pay for it. Their women were subject to rape, etc. They lived in conditions of extreme privation & poverty. They were even bought & sold between estates by the Boyars that owned them, right up until 1917. My great grandfather was sold from St. Petersburg to a noble on the Lithuanian/Russian border in 1915, & there he was until the 1920s when he was finally able to escape from under his new ‘owners’, the Reds, into Finland. It wasn’t til he came to the US that he actually first lived in a house with floors instead of dirt, & wore shoes of leather instead of rags & bark bound together w/string. Most certainly he didn’t have anything to do with AA slavery, & I don’t feel I owe any AAs any kind of ‘reparation’ whatsoever, since my ancestors lived on the same level as theirs did, for even longer.

    I could also take issue with the contention by some AAs on this thread that all whites receive some sort of preferential treatment because of their color. I certainly have never gotten that kind of benefit. I think what is going on here is that AAs confuse the economics. It’s the economic levels that benefit some to the detriment of most.

    I wholeheartedly agree that most preferential property/wealth-holding persons are white. But these are the same group whose ancestors were plutocrats as well. They do their best to ensure that we all, black, white, & checkered, fight among ourselves for any silly reason, lest we look to the true cause of our mutual & common repression & turn on them where our rage &/or resentment belongs. The same (mainly white) group who screwed our ancestors of whatever race or national origin, are the same (mostly white) bastards who are busy screwing US today. They’re just less obvious about it, slicker in their ability to misdirect our attention & resentments, more universal in their ability to control our news sources & to deliver propaganda to our minds & our kids via the media which they own or control.

    AAs still are discriminated against in a way that whites are not. Many people of all colors are wary if not downright afraid of young black males (or in some areas, hispanics) as they would not be of whites or asians. However, crime stats prove that there is at least a tenuous good historical reason for this tendency to be nervous around these groups, since they notorious prey on ALL persons, being no respecters of race, age, or gender or anything else for that matter.

    A lot of white kids DO think they should get a free pass, but it has less to do with being white, I think, than that they were brought up to believe they are the center of the world by over-indulgent,lazy parents who have been urged since their own childhood to “validate” their childrens’ self esteem, etc. etc. b.s. b.s., a trend started by the late Dr. Benjamin Spock, who regretted his theoretical child-psych errors profoundly by the time the 4th Spock generation was coming along. Too little, too late; the damage has been done. But again, I think it’s less a function of color than of class, since the AA kids I know have the same sense of entitlement as their paler confreres in school.

    By no means should we forget, but I must agree with Mr. Williams (the original subject of this thread) that apologies are meaningless. Vladimir Putin could apologize to me until he turns blue, but that won’t make my life any better in any regard, either mentally or otherwise. I never suffered from Russian Red or Tsarist repression & serfdom, so it’s meaningless to me, & by extension I can’t see how it could possibly have any meaning to any living AA who had not themselves experienced slavery.

    Dubya could apologize to the families of the troops he’s sent to their deaths or mutilation in Iraq for his oil profits until the day he dies, but it won’t bring one dead soldier back or heal the wounded ones. BUT Zedd is right, we do need to remember, if only so that hopefully the next wannabe slaver or Dubya won’t get the opportunity to perpetrate the kind of abuse these have.

    I would also point out what no one else has, that slavery is alive & well, here in the US as well as around the world. It just isn’t generally called that, & it’s hidden. However, in Africa & the middle east, investigations have proven that the Arabs as well as African nationals are still raking in profits to fund their wars from the slave trade as well as from diamonds & drugs; and we are all aware, I believe, of the massive sex slave trade endemic in SE Asia, especially Thailand. The shame is, it’s almost as prevalent here in the US, in the form of illegals being used as slave labor, or visa-holding people from other countries importing bona fide fellow nationals from their own countries as “staff” & then holding them as virtual slaves here in the US. There have been several notorious cases of this last in the DC/MD/VA area where I live, just recently, as well as investigations into the peddling of virtual slaves/illegals by various coyote gangs all over the US. They literally kidnap these hapless people from each other, to sell themselves, or to kill if they can’t turn a profit off them themselves, or to ransom them from their families back home – before selling or killing them anyway even after the ransoms are paid.

    Slavery has been & still is one of the most prevalent & common evils, all over the globe, from China to S. America to modern NYC. Anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish. It certainly isn’t restricted to any one group anymore, any where.

    So who apologizes to whom, where, for what?

    But I think this has been a good thread. Certainly brought out a lot of good comments on either side of the divide, as well as exposing some of us to opinions or feelings of others we can’t otherwise be aware of, & the reasons why.

  • G. Chell

    With Arch Conservative gone, the discussion is a bit more civilized.

  • Zedd

    Nancy

    I agree with most of what you posted in your last post. I always enjoy your being open and examining.

    However I don’t think that we teach our children real African American history. Every February our children learn about that darn man and the peanut butter. It infuriates me. We don’t have a consciousness of the evils of slavery Nancy. It was just a little over a hundred years ago and we don’t get how horrid it really was. It was an huge undertaking for one thing and an amazing engagement for human beings on either side of the experience. We yet gloss over it and discuss everything around it ad nauseum.

    We cant be more sophisticated or evolved unless we KNOW what we are made of. I love the Brits because they know what they have done and speak of it often. While they pride themselves on their conquests, they also speak openly about their evil deeds throughout the globe. We on the other hand touch on it unless is February, then we are inundated on Public Television with light images to where we feel as if we have been bombarded.

    I also believe that useless “Black leaders” exist because we are not ready for the real truth about race. You have intellectually week individuals who talk about race matters endlessly and make us feel as if we are dealing with something simply because we are tolerating their incessant yapping about insignificant issues.

    On the Jewish matter…. The holocaust was evil and we as a species should learn from it BUT it wasn’t in the United States and some Jews behave as if it was and expect all of us to be engaged in its commemoration as if we bear some of the guilt of it. Also as horrible as it was (simply unimaginable) it was for 10yrs. The tendency to compare African slavery in the US, an event that took place over two centuries on this land, during our formative years where 10 million died in just the transport of these people not to mention the auctioning, murders, rapes…. Its not even apples and oranges. Its apples and moons.

  • Zedd

    I wish someone would write a piece about Civil War re-enactors asking them to get over it. Its just weird. I wonder (Dave and company and all the kook types) do you have a lil nig running around with water handing it to the White re-enactors for the sake of accuracy?

    This “get over it” thing is childish and reveals a desire to run get away from it, more than anything.

    We talk in detail about the great plantations of the South and fantasize about mint juleps and Gone With the Wind. We wont get over that history but the real even which all of the romance is revolved around we are asked to get over?

    That is just silly.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    On the Jewish matter…. The holocaust was evil and we as a species should learn from it BUT it wasn’t in the United States and some Jews behave as if it was and expect all of us to be engaged in its commemoration as if we bear some of the guilt of it. Also as horrible as it was (simply unimaginable) it was for 10yrs. The tendency to compare African slavery in the US, an event that took place over two centuries on this land, during our formative years where 10 million died in just the transport of these people not to mention the auctioning, murders, rapes…. Its not even apples and oranges. Its apples and moons.

    Agreed, Zedd. Comparing the holocaust of the Nazis to the slavery that blacks have suffered for centuries and continue to suffer today in Africa is comparing apples to oranges.

    No, the more accurate and apt comparison is the shitty treatment my people have received at the hands of Christians and Moslems for the last 1,900 years.

    That treatment includes the holocaust, the massacres during the crusades, the humiliating treatment Jews underwent in the Arab world, and the genocide practiced against my people by the Romans and then the Christians for 600 years that effectively drove the vast majority of Jews from our land and our home, the Land of Israel.

    There is no amount of money that Moslems and you Christians can pay us to recompense us for 1,900 years of persecution, massacre, murder, rape and humiliation. But you can all shut your traps and let us live in peace in our measly one percent of the Middle East. And as for the “poor Palestinians?” Let their damned Arab brothers take them in, murderous bastards that they are.

    Just letting us live in peace in the land that G-d gave us would be recompense enough.

    But the world can’t do that either. So we need nuclear weapons and the ability to destroy you all, because after 1,900 years, you are not satisfied that you have killed us off.

    Don’t answer me. Don’t bother. Just read and let the facts sink in. I wouldn’t have had to stand guard at the prime minister’s office Sunday morning, stand guard at a trampiada Sunday night, or even go to the memorial ceremony for the doctors and nurses massacred by Arabs in Shiekh Jarrah while on their way to Hadassah Hospital on 4 Nisan, 5708 – in April 1948, because you damned goyim will not let us live in peace in our own homes.

    It is really that simple. When you goyim get over persecuting Jews, WE will not have to remember slavery in Egypt so as to remember redemption from assholes like you. And finally, WE will be able to get over being enslaved in Egypt.

  • sr

    Sir Ruvy#160. WOW MY FRIEND. WELL STATED.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    Stay on topic.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd, I’ve lasered in on the topic,

    Blacks are not the only people on the planet who can bitch about how bad history has treated them. Sorry, lady. Jews have had it much worse than blacks.

    But deaf people have had it far far worse, and for far far longer. Which is the point the author really made in his article.

    So, Zedd, take your affirmative action bullshit, your slavery bullshit and your guilt-tripping bullshit and get over it.

    No, you don’t have to forget slavery. But get over it.

  • zingzing

    “Sorry, lady. Jews have had it much worse than blacks.”

    as a white “christian,” i’d have to say that comparing one to the other and considering one worse is just kind of silly.

    and kinda stupid. and pointless and abonoxious and really just bitchy.

  • G. Chell

    I think it is time for the white southerners to get over Civil War.

  • G. Chell

    No, not slavery… Texan white atrocities of modern times… precisely why Texan whites should become minority and stripped of power they have abused for so long…

    “Wright’s family said the incident was the culmination of racial taunts Wright and his girlfriend have endured for months. Ashley said they had even been threatened with violence. They said they will continue to fight until they get justice.”

  • Blair

    To Zed: Race relations are pretty good in Texas. Although urban school districs are resegreating as affluent whites–along with affluent blacks and Hispanics–move to the suburbs, integration in the 60s and 70s went very smoothly. Today, the conflict is mostly Hispanics vs. African American, but it’s not nearly as bad as in California. Interracial violence is so rare that name calling and taunts make headlines.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    I am not comparing atrocities. That is fullish.
    We are discussing AAs and slavery in AMERICA, hence the focus on AAs. When I saw your post, my first thought was oh my goodness!! Considering Jew’s constant invocation of sorrow and pain (as you stated about your mother), telling ANY group to “get over it” is just strange.

    You are probably right that Jews have been hated EVERYWHERE they have gone through out history. Its terrible!!!. For some reason they annoy people and end up getting hurt and attacked in violent ways in many cases. Its horrible and shameful!!!. However has the Jewish community ever examined why them? Why are they seen as a pariah EVERYWHERE for thousands of years by people of different civilizations in different parts of the world?

    -Do Jews think it is envy?

    -Do Jews think that its because they are chosen?

    -Do Jews think its because they tell everyone they are chosen?

    -Do Jews think that they may be too presumptive when they enter a culture and are seen as just too much?

    -Do Jews think that it is just a habit of the people of the world, every generation, to dread Jews?

    -Do Jews think its something about how they come across (perhaps the pushy and greedy stereotype)

    What is the general conclusion? Is there one? This is serious and should be examined. It’s just terrible.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    What do you know about race relations? You do know that Black ministers in the 60s and 70s were bribed into silence. When people had to rush home out of certain White areas before it got dark they kept silent. They kept King out because they were paid to. As late as the 80’s there were areas around here where you knew not to go to. Even today there are areas where you don’t want to get any car trouble.

    Race relations however don’t take the form of riots or uprisings. They take the form of attitudes which prevent people from getting ahead. They come from an unwillingness to deal with the past so that we can move on. Its funny that you claim to know how race relations have been in a state as large as Texas and you don’t know the basic experiences that are common knowledge to Blacks. We need to educate the White population about America so that we ALL can move on.

    I live in the suburbs. I left for the schools too. However I don’t understand what you are on about regarding the Hispanic vs Black issues. Perhaps its wishful thinking on your part to make a point.

    I grew up and still live in Texas bud. I don’t know what you are talking about.

  • Blair

    To Ruvy:
    Up until the Crusades, European Jews were an agarian people who enjoyed good relations with their neighbors. The religious fever of the Crusades changed this. Christianity could not be right unless Judaism was wrong. The Christians enacted laws against Jews that prevented them from farming or owning land. This pushed Jews off their farms. They became merchants, laywers, and accountants. Since religious laws forbade Christains to lend money and collect interest, there was no banking system, so Christian nobles set Jews up in the banking business. They also assigned Jews to serve as tax brokers, collecting taxes from serfs and turning the tax payments over to landed nobles. People enjoy borrowing money, but resent people to whom they are in debt. For generations, Catholic priest and Protestant clergyman preached the blood libal against the Jews. Christians actually beleived Jews sacrifaced Christian babies in their regligious rituations. They also blamed plagues on Jews, who they were taught poisoned wells. wells. This set the stage for the Holocaust.

    A great deal of hatred at Jews is jealousy. Jews had to depend on their wits to survive the long centuries of persecution. As a result of natural selection, Jewish IQ increased. Today, European, or Ashkenazi Jews, score an average of 15 points above average on IQ tests, the highest of any racial or ethnic group. Three standard deviations above normal might not seem like much, but the real impact is in the higher IQ ranges. Twenty-three out of every 1,000 European Jews have IQs above 140 compared to one in 1,000 among other populations. This explains their extraordinary contributions to science, medicine and the arts.

    Fortunately for us, more European Jews immigrated to America than Israel.

  • sr

    Zedd and Moonbat are one in the same.
    Dr. sr

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Blair,

    I realize you are only trying to “set the record straight” as it were, but you need to ask how and why did those Jews get to Europe in the first place?

    Perhaps there was a huge Tupperware sale that caused them all to leave the Land of Israel?

    And for whom is it fortunate that more Jews emigrat4ed to America (initially) than have come home to Israel? And why?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    sr,

    Don’t ever confuse Zedd, and African woman who emigrated to America, with Marthe (moonraven), an American ex-pat who lives in Mexico.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    The answer to all of your questions is one of the reasons I live here. HOME. I don’t give a damn about what non-Jews think, and I don’t have to. All I have to do is fire straight and sure, if G-d forbid, the occasion arises that I have to.

    Which is why it is preferable that all of us come HOME – so that we no longer have to worry about what you think or why the world hates us – or even give a damn about you all…

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I wish someone would write a piece about Civil War re-enactors asking them to get over it. Its just weird. I wonder (Dave and company and all the kook types) do you have a lil nig running around with water handing it to the White re-enactors for the sake of accuracy?

    Zedd, what the hell are you talking about? I’ve never been a civil war reenactor. I do know that there are quite a few african american reenactors both in southern and northern groups. I refer you to the Fighting 54th for one example. There are also some very popular ‘Buffalo Soldier’ heritage groups.

    Do you have some sort of strange prejudice against people who want to preserve and experience history?

    Dave

  • STM

    Ruvy wrote: “Perhaps there was a huge Tupperware sale that caused them all to leave the Land of Israel?”

    Sorry mate, I know this is serious stuff … but it’s a classic and you have sent me into a fit of the giggles with this one. I have asked a friend BTW to ask about the standing, silent prayer. I will get back to you because if all our Aussie Jews are saying prayers for rain every Sabbath, maybe the reason we haven’t had any is that we’ve been given the answer: we don’t need it yet.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    By the way, Zedd, I didn’t mean to skip over all of your questions. Those questions you raise and self examination that emerged therefrom have formed the corpus of Jewish literature and life for 2,300 years or more, from the Septuagint (the translation into Greek of the Torah which had many “errors” which were in essence “apologia” to the Jew-hating Greeks) to the histories of Josephus, who even though he was a traitor to the rebellion in Judaea, provided the world with much history of the era (along with many “apologies” to the Jew-hating Romans), to Philo, a Jewish philosopher who lived 1,900 years ago.

    But in the end, by living here in our own home, we do not any longer have to apologize or make excuses to you any longer. If Blair’s notes on the average IQ of Jews are true (it’s flattering to read, but flattery is not necessarily truth), we can get along quite nicely without any of you.

    It takes thought, but Jews can think – I think.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Stan,

    About the Amidá. This standing prayer asks for G-d to raise the wind and cause the rain to fall during winter, and asks G-d to provide a blessing of dew on the land the rest of the year. It is not said every Sabbath but three times daily, seven days a week.

    Generally, as I understand it, the kavaná (intent) of the prayer is to focus on bringing Jews home from exile and to provide THIS land with sufficient rain and dew to support the population (among a whole lot of other things). But a Jew praying in Sydney may see things differently, especially if the rates for water have gone way up.

    The query I tossed your way is, “do Jews in Australia pray for rain and wind according to the seasons in the southern hemisphere, or according to the seasons in Israel?” I am guessing that some of the “liberal” Jewish congregations and most of the “reform” ones will adjust the seasons to fit the southern hemisphere, while “orthodox” normative Jewish congregations will not.

  • http://blackslaves ez

    There is an ayat in the quran that admonishes the Jews for taking the revealed word of G-d and exposing part of word while withholding other parts of the word. In the revealed word of G-d is power due to the fact that Knowledge never known to the world is revealed. According to scriptures the Jewish people have recieved many prophets and messengers,G-d used the Jews to bring knowledge not known into the world. If some of the world of G-d was revealed while other parts are hidden by the ones through whom the word was revealed, would not that people have an advantage by the mere fact that they have wisdom that the world does not have? What is the source of the great wisdom and creativity that have afforded Jewish(not all) people to be at or near the top of nearly every human endeavor? Science, Mathematics, medicine,literature, research, economics and finance etc. Jewish people have been at the forefront of all these fields of study. Are they naturally gifted that they are about 2% of the population however, comprise 40-50% of the Forbes top 400 approx 25-30% of the noble prize recipients? To paraphase Minister Farrakhan “How did they get to be that deep? What is the source of knowledge? Are the Blacks and the Jews polar opposites as it relates to scholarly endeavors? What is the source of the Blacks(not all) seemingly lack of this requisite knowledge? Was the knowledge available and the Blacks (American) could not grasp it? Was the knowledge hidden from them? If the was hidden in what manner was it hidden?

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    So you are saying its because you are superior to everyone intellectually and everyone is jealous?

    Also, why the unwarranted insults? I was not asking for an apologist response. I was asking a legitimate question. If one group is being attacked for thousands of years, everywhere they go, one would have to ask, WHY. At least I would. Heck if it happened once, I would ask….

  • Zedd

    Dave

    My point is that slavery is as much history as the civil war. Why should we get over slavery and not the civil war?

    Its weird.

    What is being requested is “don’t remind us of the unpleasantness of what AAs experienced at the hand of Whites because we are used to Whites being portrayed as superior in history in relation to other people. This shortcoming goes against what we want to believe about ourselves.”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    “So you are saying its because you are superior to everyone intellectually and everyone is jealous?”

    Intellectually superior to everybody? Me make such an assertion? No. I see too many dumb shlimazels here in Israel to say such a thing.

    “A great deal of hatred at Jews is jealousy. Jews had to depend on their wits to survive the long centuries of persecution. As a result of natural selection, Jewish IQ increased. Today, European, or Ashkenazi Jews, score an average of 15 points above average on IQ tests, the highest of any racial or ethnic group. Three standard deviations above normal might not seem like much, but the real impact is in the higher IQ ranges. Twenty-three out of every 1,000 European Jews have IQs above 140 compared to one in 1,000 among other populations. This explains their extraordinary contributions to science, medicine and the arts.”

    This is from comment #170, posted TO me, but from Blair. It’s flattering to read, but flattery is not necessarily truth. Blair has an interesting theory and he has anecdotal proof to back it up (i.e. the number of Jewish Nobel Prize winners versus the percentage of Jews in the world’s population) but I would not make assertions like these.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “I was asking a legitimate question. If one group is being attacked for thousands of years, everywhere they go, one would have to ask, WHY. At least I would. Heck if it happened once, I would ask….”

    You asked a legitimate question (comment #168)- and you received a legitimate answer (comment #177).

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    So the conclusion is Jews are highly blessed and highly coursed. They have bin privi to the worlds best and have also had bad things happen to them.

    We know that IQ is not hereditary but achievement is, because of social environment. Therefore Jews have had positive social environments which have rendered their success over history. The notion that there has been constant attacks against Jews could not be true. For instance when we look at the current situation, Jews live well and project their culture through media vehemently. Almost every sitcom has someone who is Jewish and their Jewishness is mentioned including their customs (often taking for granted that the rest of the population understands the rituals). Also in many people’s eyes Israel is the aggressor or the oppressor in this time in history, to the Palestinians. They are the most powerful force in the region and use their power to subjugate their neighbors. Comparatively speaking, they live quite well.

    Yet the woe’s and sorrows of the people are something that the rest of the world is constantly being made aware of.

    There is a deep pain that resides because your suffering is not being fully acknowledged. Ruvy that pain is what AAs live with. What is more compounding is that the wrong was done in the country that they help build. While they continue to flourish and have made amazing strides, they are continuously chided, criticized and judged by people who have not walked their walk, people who are new to this country.

    Why they should get over their own history is strange, especially when the rest of the country has not gotten over it.

    Note: Africa is a huge continent (3.5x the size of America) I am a South African born immigrant. Lets be specific when discussing this continent. While you live in the Middle East, it is more apropos to say you live in Israel. Saying I’m from Italy is much more specific than saying I am from Europe. That only works when you are Australian.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    It is evident that what little you know about us comes from the media – and the media is a funny mirror.

    I’ve known and worked with American blacks in person in various capacities. Yet there is much I do not know about them. But I do not expect them to apologize to me for who or what they are, and the tenor of all your comments about Jews shows that you expect us to apologize for who and what we are.

    So what you have picked up in the funny mirror about us is that we need to apologize to you, but that you do not need to apologize to anyone.

    Sorry, it does not work that way.

    I don’t expect you to attempt to learn more about us. But I have no apologies to make. As I’ve said before, when I see you defend Arab terrorists who seek to kill my people, I have to wonder who it is who needs to learn her history, and who it is who has forgotten it.

  • troll

    Zedd says – *We know that IQ is not hereditary but achievement is, because of social environment. Therefore Jews have had positive social environments which have rendered their success over history. The notion that there has been constant attacks against Jews could not be true.*

    the structure of this ‘proof’ is an example of why I hold the opinion that social science ain’t very scientific

  • Zedd

    Troll

    What are YOU talking about. What proof are you on about now? That made no sense.

    Ruvy

    I am not asking for an apology about anything. How did you jump to that conclusion. Its just as easy to see the positive as it is the negative Ruvy. Try it sometimes it will reduce a lot of you unnecessary stress. Some how its as if when you zero in on a negative it makes you more legitimate. I was not AT ALL saying what you think (or wish) I was saying.

    How about living the rest of your life assuming good instead of bad. You could end up enjoying yourself legitimately as opposed to enjoying tragedy and oppression as you seem to based on your posts.

    I was simply saying, you can understand why Blacks feel badly about their history. I mentioned NOTHING about Jews doing anything for or to Black people. You just looked for a smattering of an attack and jumped at it like a kid on candy.

    Be kind Ruvy. The purpose of religion is not to make you a know it all but to enhance YOU as a person, to make you a better person. You know a lot about your religion yet you are a paranoid and mean person. Whats the point?

    I know that you are going to veer off into defense mode and start the personal attacks as usual, then claim anti semitism. Lets say not and say we did. Skip all of the inevitable drama and redirect the conversation BACK to AAs if you can manage.

    Abraham must have been a self obsessed drama queen. Its a miracle that the Middle East is still standing! geeeeeez DRAMA!!

  • G. Chell

    “Do you have some sort of strange prejudice against people who want to preserve and experience history?”

    Going by your rationale I could argue that I very well know from this article that there are some people who have a strange prejudice against people who want to preserve and remember history and demand reparations and apologies.

  • S.T.M

    Ruvy wrote: “But a Jew praying in Sydney may see things differently, especially if the rates for water have gone way up.”

    LOL. Mate, you are fair dinkum cracking me up today. On a serious note though, I suspect you are right about the reform and orthodox congregations. My friends are eastern european but would certainly not be described as orthodox, although they are devout without being too devout, if you know what I mean. We do have to do things for them on the Sabbath though, on occasion. They are in the process of asking the local rabbi this question, so we’ll see what’s going on. I did mention it was the Amida. I asked whether it applied to Australia. You and Zedd are having some fun today, BTW …

  • S.T.M

    Zedd … I can tell you with certainty why Jews have been discriminated against – that’s not really a strong enough word, either, is it … let’s face it. It’s because they are different. Some people are frightened and threatened by people, places and things that are different. And yet, the two largest religions on this planet spring from the original monotheistic belief of Judaism. For all those who don’t know, BTW, there is a very good reason why Jews are good with money, and why they have traditionally been lenders or dealt in such things as gold and jewellery. They had to. With no land of their own to grow crops or breed animals, disposessed and spread across Europe, persecuted and kept on the move, they needed other ways to make enough to feed their families. Having sharp business acumen was one way to stay ahead of the game.

  • Zedd

    STM

    How are they different?

  • Nancy

    Zedd, sorry I was away so long. What ‘horrors’ are you referring to that have NOT been covered in AA history taught in schools? No – they don’t go into the nasty stuff in the lower grades, but they do in the upper ones. Kids read Fred Douglass’ autobio & if that isn’t pretty graphic don’t know what is. Ditto Sojourner Truth – -the passage in the beginning of those two old people being ‘freed’ by their pennypinching white owners so they don’t have to feed them now they’re “useless” had me crying for weeks & I STILL hope whenever I think of it that they (the owners) went straight to Hell for all eternity for that. A lot of the literature is also pretty grim & leaves little or nothing to the imagination. So what are you talking about specifically? Rape? It’s covered. Beatings? That’s covered. Families being torn apart? Ditto. The humiliation of being sold like a cow or a pig? That’s covered. I don’t know what else there is that has been skipped over, & frankly I don’t think anyone can ‘know’ the horrors unless they are personally experienced, which is impossible these days for most of us, thank God.

    Ruvy & STM, I got a laugh out of the Tupperware thing, too! Some of us have such nice senses of humor, which is a relief considering those that don’t.

  • Blair

    “I realize you are only trying to “set the record straight” as it were, but you need to ask how and why did those Jews get to Europe in the first place?”

    Jews got to Europe the same way everyone else got to Europe. Modern humans migrated out of Africa to the Near East about 50,000 years ago. We are all descendants of a small group of about 150 people. From the Near East, they spread out to populate all the continents, where they developed racial characteristics in continental isolation.

    The founders of Jewish communities in Eastern Europe were probably single males, most likely traders who married Eastern European women and settled down. Once the population grew large enough, they primarily married within their own group. Today, about 40 percent of European Jews have male chromosomes that reveals Eastern Mediterranean descents, but they all have female chromosome that are distinctly Eastern European.

    We know that IQ is not hereditary but achievement is, because of social environment. Therefore Jews have had positive social environments which have rendered their success over history. The notion that there has been constant attacks against Jews could not be true.

    We know that IQ is hereditary. Identical twins separated at birth and raised in different socio-economic circumstances will have near identical IQs and obtain about the same degree of success in their careers. The human genome has only been mapped since 2003, but DNA analysis strongly supports the argument that IQs are genetically shaped. Although every racial group produces individuals who score at the very highest levels, the distribution from the left to right side of the bell curve appears to be uneven between racial groups. Since the data cannot be challenged, some groups say IQ tests are racially biased or don’t really measure IQ. To believe that IQ tests are racially biased, you have to believe they are biased in favor of Jews and Asian Americans, who outscore all other racial and ethnic groups. You also have to ignore studies that show a direct correlation between IQ and economic and social status. African Americans with high IQs do better in life than African Americans with low IQ. There is nothing about IQ tests that justifies estimating an individual’s intelligence base on his or her race. Statistical results apply only to large groups.

    Hostile environments force people and population groups to adapt. One way groups facing hostile environments adapt is by development increased cognitive abilities. This is how modern humans overcame the more powerfully built Neanderthals and survived the ice age. This is what is meant by “natural selection.” Recent DNA evidence shows that genetic changes occur more rapidly than originally thought. Under constant attack for centuries, the Jews developed higher cognitive skills through natural selection

  • Zedd

    Nancy

    Ask your kids or grands what they know about what happened to Africans from the middle passage on. That will answer your question.

    I have school aged kids. Its not covered. Heck I went to school. It was a joke. They showed one of those over acted slave portrayals that had everyone laughing, Black and White. Harriet Tubman was a popular one. You’d see just eyes in the dark and everyone acting more scared than any human being known in history would be, talking about “crossin da riva jowdin”. What a crock. If that doesn’t enhance White Supremacy what doesn’t?

    In university, as you know, I studied Sociology, JUNK!… When it came to African Americans. I would have to stop the instructor to make basic clarifications. There were ridiculous blanket statements about Blacks being taught to future social scientists. Had a Black person not been there, that misinformation would have prevailed. No one would have known that THEY DON’T KNOW. They would have been like you, insisting that they have been taught, WELL!

    I told one of my professors years after graduating when I ran into her at the mall, that I questioned whether I got educated. She understood my delima because of some issues that existed regarding issues relating to women, in the department.

    The only real information that I got was from an African American literature class. It was taught by a lovely Jewish women who wanted to delve. I still love her! Off course the class was full of African Americans. We had only two White students who looked uncomfortable the entire time but they stuck it through. The only other anomalies were myself and a Haitian born gay guy. We and another young lady were the most inquisitive. The other Black students were almost afraid to get deeper. They tended to go with the cliches and the instructor would pull and pull more substance.

    I had a Native American Lit class that was incredible as well. I still read some of those authors.

    BTW I found the humor in Ruvy’s statement. I don’t know if you were referring to me with that comment. However we were in another discussion and I was focusing on that. He was commenting to Stan if I remember.

    Besides the topic is that African Americans should get over slavery. I’m not feeling jovial in this thread. Perhaps more education would help to illuminate that perspective.

  • http://blackslaves ez

    In a nutshell the only thing in the mainstream that comes close to depicting what has happened to the Blacks born into slavery by way their kidnapped ancestors occurred inadvertently by way of the film the passion of the christ. I am not making light of theme of that film however, if one were to paint that jesus in the film black and imagining that what happened to Jesus happened to an entire nation of people then you would have come close to the type of beatings the slaves endured. The raping of the slave women was legal if the perpetrator was a white male. The forced emasculation of the male slaves were done in front of the women, children and other male slaves to produce the fear of G-d in the slave for the slavemaster. It was not uncommon for white males to have the severed penises of black males in their possession for trophies citing that the protection of the white female was rationale for the deeds done. Everything of evil that the whites could imagine was carried out on their dehumanized subjects. One only has to look at the type torture that was admitted to by the cop that sodomized the blackman in jail in NYC. The act committed by the police was illegal but it was in the heart of the men to commit such acts in the present, prior to the civil rights era and beyond the whitemen possessed the same mind and heart of the cop in NYC and it was perfectly legal(or no fear of prosecution)to commit any evil imagined. America by way of it’s constitution and subsequent rulings(see Scott vs.Sanford) elevated the status of any white above all blacks without regard to status garanteeing all whites that the blacks had no rights that were duty bound to respect. The true evil that existed in the founding of America has never been studied in school or any history book printed by children of the slavemasters. The history books in today’s school answers the question of chattel slavery in terms akin to “babies being delivered by the stork.”

  • Blair

    To Zed:

    I grew up in Texas. While there are some townships still regarded as hostile to blacks, it’s primary a case of whites fearing to enter black areas. As a rule blacks feel safer in white areas of town than they do in black areas. Most violence is race on race, but interracial violence is most directed against white, although most of this is not cagtegorized as hate crimes because the motive is often robbery.

  • Blair

    I realize you are only trying to “set the record straight” as it were, but you need to ask how and why did those Jews get to Europe in the first place?

    Jews got to Europe the same way everyone else got to Europe. Modern humans migrated out of Africa to the Near East about 50,000 years ago. We are all descendants of a small group of about 150 people. From the Near East, they spread out to populate all the continents. The founders of Jewish communities in Eastern Europe were probably single males, most likely traders who married Eastern European women and settled down. Once the population grew large enough, they primarily married within their own group. Today, about 40 percent of European Jews have male chromosomes that reveals Eastern Mediterranean descents, but they all have female chromosome that are distinctly Eastern European.

    We know that IQ is not hereditary but achievement is, because of social environment. Therefore Jews have had positive social environments which have rendered their success over history. The notion that there has been constant attacks against Jews could not be true.

    We know that IQ is hereditary. Identical twins separated at birth and raised in different socio-economic circumstances will have near identical IQs and obtain about the same degree of success in their careers. The human genome has only been mapped since 2003, but DNA analysis strongly supports the argument that IQs are genetically shaped. Although every racial group produces individuals who score at the very highest levels, the distribution from the left to right side of the bell curve appears to be uneven between racial groups. Since the data cannot be challenged, some groups say IQ tests are racially biased or don’t really measure IQ. To believe that IQ tests are racially biased, you have to believe they are biased in favor of Jews and Asian Americans, who outscore all other racial and ethnic groups. You also have to ignore studies that show a direct correlation between IQ and economic and social status. African Americans with high IQs do better in life than African Americans with low IQ. There is nothing about IQ tests that justifies estimating an individual’s intelligence base on his or her race. Statistical results apply only to large groups.

    Hostile environments force people and population groups to adapt. One way groups facing hostile environments adapt is by development increased cognitive abilities. This is how modern humans overcame the more powerfully built Neanderthals and survived the ice age. This is what is meant by “natural selection.” Recent DNA evidence shows that genetic changes occur more rapidly than originally thought. Under constant attack for centuries, the Jews developed higher cognitive skills through natural selection.

  • http://blackslaves ez

    Reference the book WITHOUT SANCTUARY A HISTORY OF LYNCHING IN AMERICA for info regarding the severed penis. Also by painting Jesus in the movie THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST black one can very well see how Jesus could have been killed by the people he came to teach. By a simply change in color the beating of Jesus would not invoke sympathy/empathy with the whites instead the cries would be “Kill the nigger beat the nigger I he has done something wrong” If that is not the truth ask how does America react to a policeman shooting an unarmed blackman in the back multiple times? Yeah “He must have done something”

  • Zedd

    Blair

    The facts:

    A large number of the study of twins reared apart was undertaken by Thomas Bouchard of the University of Minnesota starting in 1979. He “collected” pairs of separated twins from all over the world and reunited them while testing their personalities and IQs. Other studies at the same time concentrated on comparing the IQs of adopted people with those of their adopted parents and their biological parents or their siblings. Put all these studies together, which include the IQ tests of tens of thousands of individuals, and the table looks like this:

    Same person tested twice 87%

    Identical twins reared together 86%

    Identical twins reared apart 76%

    Fraternal twins reared together 55%

    Biological siblings reared together 47% (studies show that reared apart about 24%)

    Parents and children living together 40%

    Parents and children living apart 31%

    Adopted children living together 0%

    Unrelated people living apart 0%

    Twins are basically the same person genetically. Not sure why that would be a surprise.

    After World War I, careful reanalysis of the mass of intelligence test data took place. This began to challenge the commonly held view that intelligence was directly, genetically linked to racial differences:

    e.g. blacks from Illinois had higher IQ scores than whites from 9 southern states – a finding difficult to reconcile with the simple idea that whites are intellectually superior to blacks.

    Evidence now seemed to support a closer link between social class and intelligence, rather than race and intelligence. As a result, a number of psychologists in the 1920s and 1930s shifted their position towards the environmental camp.

    The shift against ‘nature’ views was given momentum by the backlash against the social consequences of government policies:

    e.g. sterilization laws had been passed in 24 US States, resulting in 20, 000 people being sterilized against their will. 320, 000 people suffered the same fate in Germany.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    How many Whites get injured in Black areas. The topic that we are engaged in is not White paranoia. Its why Blacks should get over slavery. If White fear is unfounded, I don’t know why its an issue unless you are supporting the view that Blacks are villainized unnecessarily in our society and those idea affect their economics. This is a legacy of our evil PAST.

    Also, try someone else with your pseudo genetic science. The minute you quote the Bell Curve you loose respectability on many legitimate circles. Next you’ll be telling me that you are a survivalist. It goes in hand with the rest of the kookdum.

  • Zedd

    Blair are you Black?

  • blair

    Environment plays a role in human development but so does genetics. If we did ever succeed in making the social status playing field level, then IQ would become an even more important factor than it is today.

    Personnel initiative and effort makes a difference, but higher IQ is positively correlated to personnel initiative, ambition and social, rather than antisocial, behavior. Prison populations score lower on IQ tests than the general population. (This may be because higher IQ types are better able to caculate the chances of their being caught.)

    The notion that race doesn’t exist but is a social construct was first advanced decades ago in medical journals by doctors who hoped to disuade their colleagues from exploring bioligcal or race-based medicine. They feared, not without cause, that racists would use the results of research into genetic-based diseases to advanced racists agendas. Nevertheless, genetic research has produced and will continue to produce significant advances in medical treatment. We now know, for example, why some drugs work for whites but not for blacks and why some drugs work for blacks but not whites. We now know which genes make some races more vulnerable to specific diseases are uniquely vulernable to certain diseases and how these genes work. For example, we know the gene that causes sickle cell anemia also gives African Americans a partial immunity to malaria. This gene would likely disappear if we were able to erradicate malaria.

    As research informed by DNA analysis tracks down the genes that cause mental illnesses or brain disorder, we are highly likely to identify genes that control cognitive functions. Most like it will be genes that control meuron connectivity within the brain. We are almost certain to discover that genes control virtually everything, sexual behavior, ituitive thinking, quality of memory, physical abilities, etc.(They appear to control everything else, so what not cognitive ability?) We know that genes produce physical differences in races. People get fired when they suggest that black athletes dominate certain sports–the ones that count–due to a combination of effort and genetic advantages, but that’s what most black and most white athletes think. Basketball players with leaping ability are said to have “White Man’s Disease.” (Being good at sports, by the way, doesn’t make you dumb.) If you don’t think different races and ethnic groups have genetical tendencies that make them better or worse at certain sports, ask youself why the NBA has so few pgymies. Do you think it’s due to prejudice?

    The authors of the Bell Curve devoted only a tiny fraction of their book to differences among races. The bulk of their work enjoys amost universal exceptance. For example, the data shows gender impacts IQ. Women are more evenly distributed throughout the bell curve. There are more men at the extreme high end than women, but there are also more men below the median IQ than women. In other words, the average woman is smarter than the average man. This might explain why college campuses now have more women than men. This conclusion was generally well received becuase it is politically correct. The author’s conclusion that races are unevenly distributed throughout the bell curve is not politically correct; therefore, critics say the authors must be racists and their work can be ignored.

    Of course, no one ignores the bell curve; they only pretend too. Public schools systems across the country employ diagnosticians to test student IQs. These tests determines which kids got to advanced programs and which go to slow learner classes. College entrance exams are indicators of IQ. Students who require an affirmative action assist to make it into elite colleges like Harvard or Yale or, nevertheless, much brighter than average high school students. The military administers “aptitude tests” to recruits before placing them in military occupational specialites.

    As work continues to increase in specialization and complexity, a cognitive elite is emerging. Bright women marry bright men and together they produce children with higher than average IQs. Despite decades of affirmative action and social programs, the pay gap continues to widen, not only between races but between white and blue collar workers of all races.

    The authors of the Bell Curve point out that people with average IQ perform vital work and make significant contributions to society. For example, network anchors make millions of years, but which would you perfer to do without, the anchor people or the people who keep your water and serwer systems working. The authors suggest a tiered system of compensation in which the people in the upper tiers make more money but not that much more money than people in the lower tiers would be fairer, but tinkering with the economy tends to produce disasterous results. However, if we ignored the evidence of genetic research, we will continue to spend enormous amounts of money and energy on social initiatives that won’t work.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    Are you Black???

  • Zedd

    Blair

    On the IQ thing, maybe. More than likely determination and hard work will play a larger role, all things being equal. I am surrounded by highly intelligent people. While my IQ is considered high, I pay no attention to such nonsense. I know my gubber moments…. My daughter is bizarrely intelligent and I have friends who are scientists and are weird smart. All of these individuals don’t function well in the real world. My beloved child is like a 6yr old socially. She is no where near six. My friends are just weird (which I love). The last incident was when I went for coffee with a friend and his shirt was CLEARLY inside out. Clueless!! He looses his phone regularly. I love him though.

    My other child who has learned how to make As from my tutor-ledge and her winning personality is quite adaptive. If you spoke with her you would think that she was an airhead. She gets very little and cares very little about anything cerebral but she is highly goal oriented and has figured out that she didn’t want to be he dumb cousin any more so she buckled down. She follows directions well (unlike all of the nerds in the family). She makes things happen. All I have to do is tell her once and she’s figured out how and when something is going to be done. She now makes straight As because she takes advice and follows directions. My genius though is a HANDFUL!! Her grades are good but not as good. She looses her work constantly or gets bored and doesn’t do it….help. I explained to my cheerleader child that she has every tool to make good grades. She is capable, she has a smart mom who will help her with anything and she has the resources. She bought into it and ran with it! In my mind she is highly intellegent because she is the most adaptable.

    Intellect is relative. Adaptability is paramount.

    “When” social conditions become equal, the attractive, slightly smart, adaptable and agressive people will win out.

  • sr

    Just curious. Were do most of you find the time to comment on BC. I look at the dates and time and think this is your life. Correct me if im wrong. Im retired and spend many hours upgrading my archery, rifle and pistol skills. Also go fishing. This works for me and I have no intentions of being negative toward you. Im just curious. Take a walk into the woods. It does wonders for you.

  • STM

    Zedd: “How are they different?”

    The same way Muslims and Christians are different. That was the key issue in the persecution of Jews, their difference. And it’s carried over into the modern age. Perhaps today it’s more subtle, but it’s still there. Ruvy can tell you with far more authority. I’m just basing it on my own observations of what goes on … he grew up in the US.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    Your examples to support that race is not a social construct prove just the opposite. You know that the adaptability of a people comes from social situations. Race comes from experiences over time. It is not created by God from the creation of mankind (if you subscribe to creationism). We also know that there are a number of variations that blur a lot of racial lines. For instance, most African Americans are African (Bantu), European and Asian in genetic structure. The modern Bantu also posses differences. Some of which are not explored because of the tendency to lump all Black Africans in one pot. South Africans don’t have sickle celled anemia. We don’t deal with Malaria. We also are mixed with the San and Namba populations so we are shorter in stature and lighter in complexion than a lot of other groups. Modern Ethiopians are also mixed with Northern populations. Egyptians possess the most varied traits…. You get the point. Race is a construct. All of these individuals would be considered Black but what does that mean? What applies to a Senegalese will more likely not completely apply to me or an Ethiopian but may apply to an African American if one of his ancestors was from that part of Africa. Oprah for instance has NO White blood but has African and Native American (Asian) blood. While her half sister may very well have European ancestry. They are both considered to be Black.

    So the moral of this lengthy tale is that GENETICS are significant but race is a construct.

  • Zedd

    STM

    Many got tired of the abuse and went back to their homeland where they wouldn’t be abused and mistreated.

    America is home for African AMERICANS. They were concieved on this land. They are genetically African but also possess European and Native American blood. Since they have no where to go, it only stands that they should expect their home to face its evil deads against them so that they and the rest of the country can move on.

    The British are actually celebrating the 200th abolition of the slave trade in two days. Even though off course there is still human trafficing in Britain (4000 known) but the highlighting of this day says something. It says they have grown and they are open to moving on and being better.

  • STM

    I agree that Americans of all races and creeds need to move on from this. It’s 2007, and African Americans truly are part of the very fabric and landscape of the modern United States – they are as American as apple pie and the founding fathers. IMO, the US would a sorrier place without the African-American community. A bit like that white tribe of Africa (the ones we have spoken about before) … they belong over there too now, simply because that is how it is, despite all their awful transgressions. I’m still a supporter of Mandela’s pragamatic and almost above-human ideas of inclusion and forgiveness, however. Perhaps we can all learn from him. I wish ….

  • shikad

    What I see in all these arguments is a distinct lack of sensitivity. There is also an abject lack of proper understanding of historical ramifications on society’s current thoughts; a point which few appear to recognize. Black people have been historically constructed in such a fashion as to leave both criticism and compassion regarded as equally excessive. This should be at the forefront of our minds when we form our views relating to the problems which affect the Black community: there is no help in disregarding reality, similarly there is hope in accepting the ills.

  • Lumpy

    SR. I blog from work when I stay after hours to do boring shit they load on me because I have no social life to speak of.

    One note on this subject. Do you people realize that slavery is alive and well in the modern world and that its victims are mostly white women, and that the people buying and selling the slaves are still those same moslems (or their descendents anyway) who sold blacks 300 years ago?

  • Zedd

    STM

    I agree with everything that you have said. Even about the Boers. I think they are distinctively South African and they do belong there. They are part of us, and us them.

    What helped everyone to accept the rainbow nation idea in SA was the truth and reconciliation that you have mentioned before. The US is a totally different animal. Remember Stan I know both places and I know both styles of racism. America is infested with this illness that permeates deeply. Until the race issue is dealt with, many ridiculous actions will come from this country because denial rules in this great land.

    There are many wonderful things about this country, no doubt. However the light weight aspect of Americans that I often speak of and am always right btw when spotting a non American (I spotted you right off), comes from a long history of denial and skimming over unpleasantness. The pretense which washes over every real thing causes this nation to be ever reliant on emotional pick me ups in order to function (hence the weird over patriotism). The ever present self congratulation also comes from escaping reality.

    I find it interesting that people have the nerve to lecture a people on how to deal with their own personal history. Stan who would any one be to actually tell you how to deal with who you are; how you and your people were conceived? Its quite nervy wouldn’t you say? Especially when we all know that those people actually benefit TODAY from your people’s misfortune over the years and even now. I don’t think that White Americans realise just how much their Whiteness buys them in society. I don’t think that most people realise that without the evil history and if all people were equal today that many of them wouldn’t have the jobs that they have, especially White males.

    Its a fact in America.

  • Zedd

    sr

    I am getting over an annoying illness. Nothing life threatening, not any more, I hope but when I am particularly uncomfortable, I get on BC to distract myself and exercise my little brain.

    Thanks to technology I get some work done at home with the lap top. The house is clean but not as it usually is :o)

  • STM

    Zedd wrote: “I find it interesting that people have the nerve to lecture a people on how to deal with their own personal history. Stan who would any one be to actually tell you how to deal with who you are; how you and your people were conceived?”

    It probably wouldn’t bother me that much, but also, who’s lecturing, Zedd? … I’m offering an opinion, that’s all. I think the main thing I offered was that African Americans are as American as apple pie, and had they not been part of the fabric of American society (despite the way they got there and how they were treated and still are), the US would have been a sorrier place. Don’t see how that’s too controversial. But as you know, I’m a great believer in the twin delights of inclusion and forgiveness, which I reckon are a really good place to start in the process of righting the wrongs of ANY past. Basically, somewhere along the line, someone has to bury the hatchet, and it’s always better if it’s not buried in someone else’s forehead. And my point about Mandela: If South Africans can begin burying the hatchet, anyone can do it.

    If that’s a lecture, I’ll need to redefine my views on a lot of other things.

  • STM

    Sorry Zedd, I take my (slightly) smart-arse, defensive tone back … I just realised you weren’t giving me a bollocking at all and that the comments were directed at others. I can ONLY offer opinions though, anyway, as I don’t live in the US. But I have spent a bit of time in California, and it seemed to me to that real inroads were being made with this stuff (perhaps not so much in LA) as far back as the early 80s. Like Martin Luther King, I have a dream too … that one day, everyone on this bloody planet will be treated equally and we’ll all get along.

  • Zedd

    In Texas, a While male who killed a man got probation and has been stopped by the police numerous times for cocaine possession.

    A Black man in Texas who had been on parole for robbing someone of their $2 (shameful and weird) got caught for smoking a joint and has been in jail for 17yrs.

    How can we forget.

  • Zedd

    That’s, a White male…..

  • Zedd

    STM

    No biggy. I couldn’t be upset at you even if i wanted to.

  • STM

    Well, that is a disgrace if it’s true. I don’t fully understand the three-strikes law but it does seem barbaric, as does the wholesale trying of people under the age of 18 as adults. I realise there are some nasty teenagers out there, but I’d baulk at regularly locking up 13-16 year olds in adult jails. Surely there must be a cut off point where we can say that there still might be some hope. And jail should be the state’s last resort, not its first.

  • STM

    HDC wrote in #14: “Even though deafness is what unites (most) in the Deaf community race/ethnicity is still what separates them.”

    Lol. Not sure about that one … this brings back some memories … I used to play in a rugby competition that had a deaf/hearing-impaired (legally deaf) side (they had quite a few black players, too – as did we). Sadly for us, the Deaf team wasn’t blind as well, although at the full-time whistle, our coach suggested we might have been after they’d smacked us all over the park and run up a pretty lopsided scoreline.

    We knew we were in trouble as we ran on and noticed they all had matching socks. Then we spotted their five-eight (the quarter back equivalent): a Hollywood movie look-a-like who was too good looking for a footballer, which also meant he was probably very quick and hadn’t been tackled much. He was a black bloke, stone deaf and played solely on sight and instinct in general play, and he ripped us to shreds.

    It would have been nice to have been deaf (for a few moments) as the coach delivered an apoplectic, paint-blistering tirade in the sheds afterwards: “Those blokes are bloody deaf … and you’re all fu.kin’ blind, you useless bunch of bastards.”

  • Paotie

    People –

    Couple quick things:

  • Paotie

    Well, there goes that.

    I’ve been banned from commenting anything with substance.

    Good job, Mr. Rose.

  • troll

    (Paotie – the spam filter behaves like a petulant child…your posts will show up when CR wakes up)

  • Zedd

    Paotie

    That was REALLY short.

  • G. Chell

    “And my point about Mandela: If South Africans can begin burying the hatchet, anyone can do it.”

    A white South Afrian woman who once declared that she would never touch a non-white skin married a non-white person and settled in Singapore. Granted he was a rich Chinese…but that is a change…

  • G. Chell

    “In Texas, a While male who killed a man got probation and has been stopped by the police numerous times for cocaine possession.

    A Black man in Texas who had been on parole for robbing someone of their $2 (shameful and weird) got caught for smoking a joint and has been in jail for 17yrs.

    How can we forget.”

    Comment: Let us do something about it. Let us get as many legal immigrants to become citizens..let us make whites an electoral minority in Texas as soon as possible..that is the sentence that fits the crime…otherwise Texas wont change…we have whites in power who want to pay women to have the baby and not abortion, but once they are born, want to deny them citizenship if even one of the parents is illegal….if many Texan whites have their way if a female US citizens is raped and the man arrested happens to be an illegal, the baby would not automatically get US citizenship…..let us do something about it before it is too late!!

  • Paotie

    Ok, let’s try again (now that we’ve figured out the spam word):

    Some of you have claimed I misinterpreted Williams’ article. I disagree and here’s why:

    1)Williams discusses current international slavery in the same vein as slavery in the US during the 1800’s

    2)Williams provides the segue between slavery in the 1800’s and black societal problems (crime, unemployment, education) in 2007 in Virginia

    3)Williams demands legislators in Virginia fix BLACK ONLY issues in Virginia

    Williams also mentions black h.u.s.t.l.e.r.s. (spam word) who force whites into appeasing their demands by virtue of imposing guilt or other political forms of coercion to advance these black h.u.s.t.l.e.r.s. and their political motives and constituents (professional black victims).

    Williams, in my opinion, empowers these black h.u.s.t.l.e.r.s. by doing the very thing they do: utilize statistics to correlate some fictional link between slavery in the 1800’s here in the US, and the 2007 black crime, unemployment, and educational issues. As I said, being deaf, I do not adhere to the notion that blacks cannot help themselves and commit crimes and flunk out of school because of society in general. I fail to see that relevancy, and am allowed to do so because as a minority, I see the differences between blacks, and say, deaf people, who tend to suffer in far more extremes than blacks do today.

    And, Williams would demean the victims of international slavery by first apologizing for it, and then demanding the Virginia legislature fix black problems while ignoring slavery elsewhere in the world. But, the crux of his article was about fixing black problems in Virginia – nothing more and nothing less – even if he submitted a pathetic apology for enslaved victims today.

    It may be possible that some of you may be conditioned to believe that slavery in the US in the 1800’s and the current black unemployment rate in the US are interlinked forever. Williams proves that point very succintly, because if he hadn’t, then he would’ve demanded that Virginia fix the educational system for ALL children and not call for resolutions for issues that impact BLACKS ONLY.

    Ok? If you don’t like my view, that’s fine. You can tell me to get over it, too.

    :o)

    Paotie

  • Blair

    Your arguments actually refute the contention that race is simply a social construct.

    We know Oprah has mixed African and Native American ancestery because computers fed DNA samples can identiy genetic markers that characterize racail differences. (Native Americans are descended from people who crossed into the Americas from Asia. After the land bridge between Asia and the Americas collapse, they evolved in continental isolation. Today, they are grouped as a separate race. Paleontologists can identify Native Americans from Asians simply from anatomical differences.)

    You make reference to “human adaptibility.” Humans adapt genetically as well as behavourly to environmental and social changes. Adaptibility is simply another term for natural selection, the driving force behind genetic change that create racial differences.

    Most Americans continue to think of race as a matter of skin color, but skin color is actually an unreliable indicator or race because skin color varies as dramatically within races as it does between races. (Southern Europeans, for example, are much darker than Northern Europeans. Some African tribal groups have lighter skin than others.) Today, genetic markers devide humanity into groups: African, European, Asian, Eastern Mediterrean, Native American and Australian.

    All humans are descended from a small group of humans who evolved in Africa. About 50,000 years ago, a small band of this group migrated out of Africa and populated the world. As the groups moved into different continents, they continued to evolved genetically in continental isolation.

    People object to racial classication because because bigots have so often used race to promote racist agenda. If we were talking about animals rather than humans, we would use the term “sub-species” rather than “race.” For example, dogs, coyotes, and foxes are canine sub-species. They are all descended from the wolf, but have genetic differences that distinguished them from wolves and from one another. Evolution works the same in humans as it does in animals.

    Medical research into genetic structures makes it almost certain that some human-directed genetic engineering lies in our immediate future. For examnple, within our lifetime, it might be possible to insert genes into human embryoes that counteract genes that cause hereditary disease. The concept is horrfying, unless you happened to possess genes that cause a herediatary disease, because it has such potential for abuse.

    Mental as well as physical disorders tend to decrease rather than increase as IQ rises. (People with higher IQ may make better choices about what to eat, drink and not smoke.) There is some association between mental disorders and extremely high IQs (pure mathmaticians who aren’t eccentric are consider abnormal), but this probably apples to less than one percent of the population. However, my friends who work as diagnoticians (IQ testers) in the local school district, tell me parents are wrong to hope their children have genuis IQs above 140 because they will have trouble relating to their peer group. In thir view, an IQ of about 120, which indicates a person should have no trouble handling collegiate-level academic work, is just about right. (One of the reasons people think IQ makes no difference is that they tend to associate with people who have the same IQ as they do. Makes one wonder who Stephen Hawkings hangs out with.)

  • G. Chell

    “Medical research into genetic structures makes it almost certain that some human-directed genetic engineering lies in our immediate future. For examnple, within our lifetime, it might be possible to insert genes into human embryoes that counteract genes that cause hereditary disease. The concept is horrfying, unless you happened to possess genes that cause a herediatary disease, because it has such potential for abuse.”

    Within the next one hundred years that mixture of races reduces certain hereditary diseases and creates more intelligent human beings…the reverse of what the bigots have been saying.

  • Lumpy

    I don’t care what color skin u have when I shoot you the blood comes out red.

  • Blair

    Lets hope racial mixing creates more women who look like Halle Barry (European/African) and Salma Hayek (Eastern Med/Eruopean/Native American). There are probably lots of good looking interacial guys too, but who cares? Once we all blend in, maybe there will be no racial prejudice. (In the 1970s, I once dated a black woman who told me I looked like I had been taken out of the oven half baked.)

    In theory,too much racial and ethnic mixing could eventually produce people with chromosomes so complex that they would only be able to breed with members of their own group. Geneticist aren’t concerned about this because it would take multiple century and adaptations would probably prevent it from happening.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    You missed it. Stick with me. The point is that Oprah’s Blackness is a social construct. The adaptation of her ancestors over time have created certain traits. Those traits were prevalent in people from certain regions, again because of environmental/social phenomena. What she is classified as is not really indicative of what she is.

    Also understand that within the Asian community lets say, there are so many macro and micro variations. The linkages could be closely related or distant by thousands of years. Within that “race” there are several races.

    Simply because one can gauge what part of the world ones ancestor came from based on a genetic (evolutionary) map, it doesn’t mean that there is really such a thing as race. As time passes we will be able to narrow down our genetics to even more detailed conclusions. Those conclusions will surpass our narrow categories (race) they will approximate various villages or subcultures that have nothing to do with race but more so with individuals or small bands. What will your race obsessed do with you logic then?

    Also, what do your Bell Curve analyses do with African Immigrants who do just as well as Asian immigrants in upper education? What do you do with the fact that in Britain, Africans are the most educated group. Considering the FACT that the factor that separates African Americans from Whites and Asians is their dominant African traits. Why is it that Africans do so well in academia?

    Also, considering that Hispanics for the most part are a combination of European and Asian “races”, their academic statistics or IQ numbers should lie in between those of Whites and Asians.

    Think about your pseudoscience a little harder then accept that Western civilization has come up with all sorts of measures to elevate its proles. As the world gets smaller, all of those assumptions will end and only then will we be liberated, meaning Whites too. Its burdensome trying to uphold a myth. It taxes the soul. Let it go and start looking at everyone as being just like you. YOU will be free. You don’t realise it but you’ve been arguing that YOU are superior.

    Actually originally races were defined by the ability to procreate together. We are one race. I know you know that.

  • Zedd

    G.Shell, STM and anyone interested in the Texas cases.

    The Gaurdian. A UK publication

    Dallas Morning News

    ABC News

    I guess it’s true STM.

    How do we get over it?? It’s a real question.

  • Blair

    Zedd: By saying that there are races within races in the Asian community, you seem to be acknowledging that race exists. The “traits” that make Oprah “blackness” are genetic traits created by evolutionary response to enviornmental conditions. Together, these genetic traits add up to race. DNA analysis simply confirms what was once subjective rather than objective definition of race.

    Nobody, except the KKK, is saying that race should define who you are as an individual. (Oddly, its the people who pretend to abhor racial classification who insist on race-based affirmative action program rather then income-based affirmative action programs.)

    It’s not hard to guess which side of the Bell Curve Oprah falls on. The Bell Cuve says all races produce individuals who rank at the very highest level of IQ. People with higher than average IQs compose most of the professional classes in all countries. Although parents with low high IQs sometime produce children with high IQs, as a rule brighter parents produce brighter children. IQ rises with economic status for all races, but the IQ difference between races is constant within economic levels. Black immigrants who are edging out native-born African Americans in college admissions typically come from the professional classes in their home countries. They have above average IQs. This doesn’t refute the message of the Bell Curve. (Many people contend that Asian Americans, especially Japanese Americans, outperform other racial groups due to “out-selection.” Their ancestors came from the professional class, or higher IQ groups, within their country of origin.)

    Hispanic Americans can be of any race. Mexican Americans are typically about 60 percent European and 40 percent Native American. (Although Native Americans are descendants of immigrants from Asia, they have evolved separately in continental isolation to such an extent they are considered a separate race. Paleontologist can distinguish Native American skeletons from Asian seletion simply from anatomical differences.) Mexican Americans score higher than African Americans but lower than European and Asian Americans on IQ test. This is true even though the majority of Mexican American immigrants come from Mexico’s lower classes. African Americans outperform Mexican Americans academically, but this is probably due to the language barrier. (The high school drop out rate for African Amricans is dismal, but the drop out rate among Mexican American students is horrendous.) This will change as Mexican Americans assimilate into American society.

    In saying this, I would like to stress that statistics that apply to large groups do not apply to individuals. For example, they do not justify the assumption that a specific member of a racial minority got his or her job due to affirmative action. I would also like to point out that accepting a Darwinian vew of evolution does not mean we have to settle for an unjust society. Hopefully, we have evolved beyond “survial of the fittest.” We should work to create a society that provides not only equal opportunity but reasonably equal results for all segments of society. If the wage gap between the “cognitive elite” and so-called working classes continues to widen, we are going to end up with a very large proletariate and an unstable society. People with higher IQs than mine will have to figure out how to make this happen.

  • Blair

    To Chell:

    Federal laws that impose mandatory sentences for drug related crimes are obviously producing unintended consequences. Ironically, they were enacted at the urging of African American community leaders who complained that the drug traffic was destroying their inner city neighborhoods. Now incarceration is destroying African American communites. (It’s also destroying Mexico, which has been taken over by drug cartels. It time to admit we have lost the war on drugs and consider legalizing drugs. It would be more effective to invest the money we now spend on building prison system on drug education centers.

  • Blair

    To Chell:

    The military doesn’t target African Americans. It does target Hispanic Americans because they are under represented in the military. Most recruits, non Hispanic whites included, come from the lower middle class because everyone else is going to college. Non-Hispanics whites are overrepresented in the combat units and suffer the higher percentage of casualties. African American recruits tend to sign up for combat support units that trained them in skills they can use after leaving the service. More African Americans females than non-Hispanic white and Hispanic white females sign up. As I pointed out, things are beginning to change as black NCOs send their children to college. Many African Americans who follow their fathers into the service are coming in as officers rather than enlisted soldiers. I work with a black combat vet who retired as a sergeant. His son was just promoted to lieutenant colonel. (Talk about upward mobility.)

    I never said benefits were equally distributed. I said that legislations such as the Homestead Act and GI Bill were not specifically designed to benefit whites. I doubt race was even a consideration. More whites were in a position to take advantage of these programs. Today, social legislation tend to be either race neutral or specifically designed to benefit minorities. The question we should be asking ourselves is why aren’t more African Americans and Hispanic Americas positioning themselves to take advantage.

    I’m in favor of affirmative action progams, although I think they should be modified. Now that Hispanic Americans, Native Americans, certain Asian ethnic groups, Pacific Islanders and non-Hispanic white females are included, about 80 percent of the population is eligible for affirmativ eaction. The real income gap is between the “cognitive elite” and Americans with ordinary intellectual capacities. I am will to forgive African Americans for giving us jazz and soul music, then following up by sticking us with rap music. (I would gladly pay rapartions if it gets rap music off the radio.) I would favor any legislation that tends to offer not only equal opportunity but reasonably equitable results. However, from my window I can look across the Rio Grande into Mexico and think of all the people who are (literally) dying for a chance to grab onto the lower rung of the American encomonic ladder. This make tampering with the economy a little frightening. Rising from poverty to middle income status in the United States takes very little effort. You have to be almost anti-social to not accomplish it. If American society is so racially unjust, why do some many people want to become members of its “oppressed” minority?

  • Paotie

    Blair:

    I enjoy reading many of your posts, and especially agree with your question as to why so many minorities seem to embrace the “oppressed” state when they have more than ample opportunity to not be oppressed. Even affirmative action programs, geared and designed to create at the very least, a “level playing field” for minorities and to create also, at least the impression that geographical locations were represented in accordance with local demographics.

    For those of you who would complain that your ability to find a job rests with affirmative action, consider this: in the late 1990’s and early 2000’s, it was widely viewed that an “empowerment program” was successful if X number of disabled people were employed. Many programs claimed to be successful in finding jobs for the disabled.

    Except that many of those who were disabled were hired merely because they were disabled, and not because of any skills they had. For example, a blind woman with a master’s degree was hired to shred sensitive documents, and everyone applauded and jumped for joy that she was no longer unemployed. A man in a wheelchair was hired to fold clothes at the Gap, and everyone remarked that, indeed, all was well with the world. And deaf people were hired to wipe down sweaty gym equipment and mirrors, and people praised the lawd that all was well.

    But, none of these people were hired for their skills at all – only their disabilities. So, sure, affirmative action programs sometimes reduces people to feeling they’re token employees; conversely, someone else is missing out on a job that may be given to a minority. And, keep in mind that when the market turned bad, guess who were the first ones laid off? Not blacks. Not hispanics. Not asians. The same disabled people I mentioned.

    Keep in mind that a disabled person, should one ever apply for a job within the affirmative action spectrum, will generally not be considered. A black man who can hear, for example, will 9 out of 10 times be hired over a white, deaf man who has the same skills, if not more. The knock against the deaf man would be his disability.

    So, why do minorities seem to love being “oppressed?” My guess is because it’s a fall-back excuse. “I can’t get a job because I’m black.”

    Bullshit.

    Thanks again, Blair, for your posts (I don’t agree with EVERYTHING you’ve said, but at least with regard to your most recent post, I sure do.)

    :o)

    Paotie

  • Zedd

    Blair,

    I wont argue with you further because it seems that there are some basic things that you don’t understand about the categories of races that are acknowledged.

    Also you keep missing the point.

    You also make claims that are simply not true.

    BTW Because I know lots of African immigrants I can tell YOU what their demographics are. It is not the intellectually gifted who are leaving. It is those who get an opportunity. Most of those who are well of prefer to stay home. The lifestyle is better. You have maids and you don’t have to deal with racism and you are home. Of the Africans that I know (there are many) I would say that 20 percent come from wealthy homes. The rest made their way here in various ways. Most African cultures promote hard work.

    The IQ thing is hog wash.

    Also FYI Native Americans are fully categorized as Asians or Mongoloids. They are not different. The Asian blood in African Americans is Native American Blood. Many Mexicans don’t claim or know their Native American heritage but those that have NA blood are far far far more than 40%. If you’ve been to Spain you’d understand just how much they are Native American in characteristics.

    Catch you next time.

  • Zedd

    Blair

    Lastly

    The military has been targeting the AA community for years.

    You just make things up.

  • Zedd

    Paotie

    sed: A black man who can hear, for example, will 9 out of 10 times be hired over a white, deaf man who has the same skills, if not more. The knock against the deaf man would be his disability.

    And probably 10 out of 10 more than a Black man who is deaf. Don’t forget there are disabled people in all races. You are favored over non Whites who are disabled.

    By the way I do feel for your challenge. It makes my heart ache. I am sorry that our world is still so unsophisticated. I am sorry that I am not more alert about issues that pertain to disabled people. Press on! Remember, at no time in history do people just change to become more sensitive about any topic on their own. You have to annoy. In the same way that we didn’t like it when we were growing up when our parents told us the truth about life, you have to speak the truth regardless as to how uncomfortable or bored people may be. Their ignorance, no matter how many there are, does not diminish your experiences and their validity. My taking for granted my blessings and conveniences as a hearing person doesn’t make your challenges any less. You have to say it. We all will die and if we don’t say it (say I love you, say I’m tired, say you are wonderful, say it hurts), our lives loose meaning.

    Whats with the moniker. Do you get high or something?

  • Clavos

    Many Mexicans don’t claim or know their Native American heritage

    Not true, Zedd. Mexicans with indigena blood are fully cognizant that they are Indians (NOT “native americans”; they don’t call themselves that) and are immensely proud of their heritage.

    Many Mexicans have no indigena ancestry whatever. My oldest friend from childhood is of Lebanese descent; another is German. Both are fifth or sixth-generation Mexicans. There are quite a few Mexicans of Middle Eastern descent, as well as many of European (and not just Spanish, either) backgrounds, and some Asians as well.

    Africans are a small and relatively recent segment of the population, because the Spaniards did not bring them in as slaves; they enslaved the Indians instead. I never met a Black person until I came to the US as an adolescent.

    Some of the Indian groups have retained their Pre-Columbian cultures to a remarkable degree, especially those in the southern border areas with Guatemala and in the interior portions of the Yucatan peninsula. In the north, the Tarahumaras don’t even use Spanish as their principal language (most don’t even speak it).

    On another note: you should read the book “Black Rednecks and White Liberals” by Thomas Sowell.

    Sowell presents a very interesting and somewhat contrarian view of contemporary Black American culture, as well as unique looks at slavery and even discusses the Jews and Nazi Germany; all with a very fresh and thought-provoking point of view.

    It’s very well documented and an interesting read.

  • Paotie

    Zedd,

    I think you’re right with regard to the black deaf man analogy you commented on previously, although in my experience and where I live, that hasn’t always been the case. So, maybe our slight difference may be the result of location, more than anything else.

    There’s no need to apologize, either. I am what I am. You are what you are. We are who we are.

    It’s time that people start to realize that there are more people on this planet than just them, their families, their ethnic group, and nation. Just because I have a bad day doesn’t mean I have to go and ruin someone else’s bad day. Likewise, racism still occurs as do many other “ism’s” (even “audism” which is the deaf culture’s definition of hearing people discriminating against deaf people). To hold your case of suffering to be of a higher standard than other groups demeans and diminishes the difficulties or sufferings other groups might have and could create animosity and ther ill-feelings.

    Additionally, one of the main problems the deaf community has is incompetence. Many people confuse ignorance with incompetency. In this case, many deaf people (especially where I live) are incompetent or unable to self-advocate for themselves; know how to find jobs; how to pursue post-secondary education and so on and so forth.

    Maybe today, there’s less ignorance and more incompetence in terms of people in general understanding the differences between people. It’s easy to say someone is ignorant if they’re racist, but wouldn’t it be possible to say they were incompetent in terms of understanding other people not like them? Ignorance is such a hateful word.

    If you look at most of the comments following this article, you can see plainly that most people disagree on several things. This implies an inability by people to see a different perspective and understand it sufficiently to garner any credible arguments by those who disagree with them. This means people are incompetently able to agree. That is not ignorance (though I would exclude the extremists at both ends because it may not be about incompetency or ignorance, but hatred.)

    Quite possibly, maybe it’s time to rethink the whole paradigm of slavery, ignorance, and racism in the US since the old constructs just don’t seem to cut it anymore?

    Just a random tangent.

    As for the moniker – you’ve got a dirty mind!

    :o)

    Paotie

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    sed: Sowell presents a very interesting and somewhat contrarian view of contemporary Black American culture, as well as unique looks at slavery and even discusses the Jews and Nazi Germany; all with a very fresh and thought-provoking point of view.

    I will read it. THanks.

    However no one will change my mind on the experience of African Americans. I LIVE IT. Its not something that I need to be made aware of or made to understand better. ITS MY LIFE. 99.9% of the time no one in any situation knows that I am not AA but me. All of my neighbors think I’m AA. I left SA and became AA (Black in the 70’s).

    AGAIN in the 70’s and 80’s Blacks and Mexicans lived together. I grew up with Mexicans. Clavos I’m in Texas. You are in Florida. Your “German” Mexican could not be German for six generations. That would mean that they married Germans only for six generations. I have a friend who claims to be of British and Spanish descent. She is Mestizo big time. Every Mexican that I know claims to be Spanish. They NEVER talk of their NA background. They may have the short squat legs of some NA groups and the features but they ALL claim to be Spanish. Its almost comical but more so sad. Again google pictures of Spaniards. They don’t look like Mexicans. They don’t. Sorry.

    Now if you watched Spanish TV you would think that that was the case. They are all light complected and they don’t look like the folks in the barrio.

    Also I never said that All Mexicans were Mestizo or mixed. Why did you exaggerate what I said as if there is no record of it. I never get why people do that on this blog. Its always Conservatives. It must be the Rush influence.

    BTW out of respect for people from India, I don’t call Native Americans Indians. They are not. Another sign of disrespect by Europeans.

  • Zedd

    Paotie

    My uncle whom I loved dearly was deaf. He lost his hearing in childhood and retained his ability to speak. He had a wonderful sense of humor and accommodated ignorance by making light of those who were cruel. Most people did not know he was deaf so people would get angry at him not knowing that he couldn’t hear.

    He was an electrician and customers would constantly try to cheat him. They misunderstood thinking his deafness was an indication of a mental disability. How silly.

    He was a very handsome man. He died tragically. We think his disability has a lot to do with how he died. Its been a long time and I am still not over it. I loved him so much.

    The key Paotie is to give people an opportunity to tell YOU how they feel and why they feel that way. Our point of views limit us. They detract from our ability to understand, no matter how much we think we can. When people hurt, Its wrong to lecture them about how they should hurt. Its wrong to tell them that it is enough. That is not our place.

    As for apologizing… We cant regain our humanity if we don’t acknowledge our short comings. I discovered my lacking and I had to acknowledge it. My insensitivity or lack of awareness does affect all people with disabilities. Not because I am doing anything evil or intentionally but by omission. By disregarding I am contributing to a lot of people’s challenges. I do apologies for that.

    I need to figure out a way to address that personally and also with my children. That is the only way our world gets better.

  • Clavos

    Zedd writes:

    Every Mexican that I know claims to be Spanish. They NEVER talk of their NA background. They may have the short squat legs of some NA groups and the features but they ALL claim to be Spanish. Its almost comical but more so sad. Again google pictures of Spaniards. They don’t look like Mexicans. They don’t. Sorry.

    You’re right, of course. But you’re speaking of Mexicans in this country (well, in Texas, anyway). Because of the prejudice they’ve encountered here in the US, they DO mostly claim not to be indigenas. They are really Mexican-Americans; no longer Mexican. I was speaking of real Mexicans; my countrymen. And not only Mexican-Americans do that; Guatemalans and most Central Americans do the same thing; but not at home, only if they live here.

    And yes, the all-white Mexicans of European descent do tend NOT to intermarry with the Indigenas. My German-Mexican friend’s ancestors came to Mexico in the 1830s (lots of Germans came to South Texas at that time, too–it was still Mexico at the time). Fredericksburg and New Braunfels are both still heavily German towns; the newspaper in New Braunfels is still named the “New Braunfels Zeitung.” Parts of San Antonio are also still German.

    But I digress.

    There are plenty of people in Mexico who trace their Spanish heritage all the way back to the Conquista (now more than 500 years), and who have only married other Spaniards or Europeans throughout that time. I have lots of Mexican friends who are blond haired and blue eyed, and who have been Mexicans for generations. There are also many people who migrated to Mexico in the twentieth century, and who have now had two or three generations born there, most of whom also don’t intermarry.

    There are mestizos, of course, but they are far outnumbered by the pure blooded indigenas.

    Also I never said that All Mexicans were Mestizo or mixed. Why did you exaggerate what I said as if there is no record of it.

    Look back at my comment, Zedd. I never said you did; nor did I exaggerate anything you did say.

    Oh, and BTW I don’t listen to anything but satellite radio; I hate commercials. As far as I know, Rush isn’t on Sirius.

  • Blair

    According to DNA analysis, Mexicans are typically 39 percent Native American, 59 percent Causasian and 3 percent African. Younger generations of Mexican-Americans are proud of their Native American ancestry, in fact, the trend is for them to reject their European ancestry since, in the United States, it’s more fashionable to be among the “oppressed” than among the “oppressors.” However, skin color remains important. Surveys show Mexican-Americans are more prejudiced toward African Americans than Anglos, the term used in the American Southwest for non-Hispanic whites, even the Irish. It’s best not to mention tht 3 precent African ancestry.

    Although I have blond hair and blue eyes, many of my Mexican-American friends, particularly the women, have lighter skin than I do; however, you seldom hear anyone claim they are of pure Spanish descent any longer. It probably wouldn’t be true and people would take it as a racist remark. One of my best friends has blond hair, green eyes, and stands about half an inch under six feet.
    Most of my friends are Mexican-Americans. (If you live in El Paso, most of your friends are going to be Mexican-Americans, unless you happen to be the type of person who doesn’t have firends.) For the most part, they are second or third generation Americans. Most speak Spanish but are more fluent in English, which they speak with no accent. Like Anglos, their politics are tied to their pocketbooks. Many are staunchly anti-illegal immigrant while some thinks we should have closed the border behind them. Most are from middle- to upper-income familes. Mexican-Americans are more likley to employ maids than Anglos; I use to date Mexican-American women who had maids three days a week even though they were living in one-bedroom apartments; it’s an addiction.

    Race relations are exceptionally good in El Paso, but this might because there aren’t enough Anglos and African Americans to make a difference. Oddly, El Paso prides itself on its “diversity,” as if it will become 100-percent diverse once it becomes 100-percent Hispanic. As an Anglo, I have no sense of being a minority, but this might be because I’m older and no longer involved in the competition for jobs.

    The primary debate in El Paso involves bilingual vs. English immersion instruction in the public schools. However, it’s mostly Mexican-Amnerican parents arguing over which is best or which is worse.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Clavos, you forgot all the German and Irish Mexicans, of which there are a hell of a lot.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    You’re right; though I did mention my German-Mexican friend.

    Shame on me; I’m a half-Irish Mexican.

  • G. Chell

    Good old fashioned southern family values at work in :he story attached. Several instances to be precise…Strom Thurmond and Arch Conservative would be very proud indeed!!

  • Blair

    Many of El Paso’s leading families are Lebanese Mexicans. We also have Syrian Mexicans. Their families spent and generation or two in Mexico before moving to the United States. We also have a Chinese Mexicans. Some of their ancestors dropped off in El Paso when the railroad was coming through. The familes of others were driven across the border by Pancho Villa during the Mexican Revolution.

  • Lumpy

    Chell is there any kind of bigotry u don’t find personallly fulfilling?

  • S.T.M

    Dave wrote: “Clavos, you forgot all the German and Irish Mexicans, of which there are a hell of a lot.”

    Klaus Rodriguez and Pancho O’Reilly, two of the better-known ones. Klaus sells chorizo-flavoured bratwurst and Pancho has come up with a new drink that somehow blends tequila and Guiness. Both have made other huge cultural contributions to Mexican society, most notably the introduction to Mexico of kegeling, lederhosen and knee slapping in the case of Klaus, while Pancho runs classes on how to drink vast quantities of alcohol and then talk your way out of trouble after getting into a fight. Their contribution is immeasurable, really. However, sometimes people mistake Pancho for a Bavarian when he starts yodelling on the way home from the pub at 3am.

  • Clavos

    OMG, Stan!!!

    Klaus and Pancho are two of my best drinking mates, the old bastards!

    Years ago, Klaus used to try to pass himself off as an Aussie, but we weren’t buying: he couldn’t drink more than 3 or 4 liters of beer without passing out; he wouldn’t survive a night in any decent pub in Sydney.

    Pancho’s a good bloke; until somebody mentions poms, that is. Then it’s Katy bar the door, and wiser men get the hell out of the room.

    83M Mexicans and you run into my two mates!

    Small world!

  • Blair

    The Saint Patrick’s Battalion (Batallón de San Patricio) was composed of several hundred Irishmen, Germans, and other European Catholics. The battalion deserted the U.S. Army and fought on the Mexican side during the Mexican-American War. We hung most of them.

  • STM

    See Blair, you have to watch out for the bloody Irish … they’ll tell you one thing and do another. That’s why Aussies drink too much and hate authority. It’s the Irish in us. But this also must be the only country in the world that’s full of people of Irish background (about 40 per cent) and has a union jack in the corner of its flag and no one cares. We’re having too much fun to worry about it. There’s a lesson in that for everyone.

  • STM

    Clav: Lol. I must say I find it really bizarre that Mexico might be chock full of Germans and Irishmen. Imagine a mixture of Spanish and Irish blood. Scary stuff on any Friday night. I do know there are a lot of Irish (and Germans, for that matter, but that’s another story) in Argentina and Uruguay, and you do sometimes hear of bizarre names like Francisco McKenna – freckle-skinned flaming redheads, all, of course. Wouldn’t they all stand out like dog’s balls in Latin America?

  • Clavos

    Stan:

    Chile had a great patriot named Bernardo O’Higgins,
    when I was a kid, the “Rupert Murdoch” of Mexico at that time was named Rómulo O’Farril, Jr., I had a teacher in grade school named Señorita O’Gorman, etc., etc.

    Spanish-speaking Micks everywhere…

    If you’re interested, check this site out.

  • STM

    I notice on that first story on the website the O’Reillys of Yucatan score a big mention. Obviously, they are Pancho’s forbears. Bloody Micks

  • Blair

    Mexican President Vincente Fox is half Irish. The San Patricio Battalion fought for Mexico because they viewed the Mexican-American War as a conflict beteen a Protestant nation(U.S.) and aCatholic (Mexico) nation.

    I think we are getting a little off track.

  • Clavos

    Fox’s first name is Vicente-no “n”, and he’s former Mexican President Vicente Fox.

    And yes, we got way off track about three days ago…

  • Zedd

    Sure did Clav. But it was cool to read that you and Stan know the same people. What a world indeed.

  • STM

    No, Blair, we’re not getting off track at all … because I don’t see a lot difference in any kind of discrimination, whether it is related to the descendants of black slaves in America, downtrodden Irish Catholics who felt the need to stand up to the yoke of anglo/scottish protestantism, or the prisoners transported for life in chains to a brutal penal colony in New South Wales often for doing nothing more than speaking their minds. Lots of people have had their crosses to bear …

  • Blair

    The Irish came in two wave. The first wave, which began arriving in the mid-1700s, were Scots Irish Protestants from Northern Ireland. They didn’t settle in cities on the eastern seaboard but crossed over the Appalachians and settled the South, Southwest and West. Since they didn’t compete for jobs in the big eastern cities, they encountered no prejudice; they were to busy fighting Indians. Today, their descendants don’t think of themselves as Irish; they think of the “Old Country” as being Tennessee and Kentucky.

    The second wave of Irish, which began arriving in the late 1800s, were Irish Catholics who congregated in cities where they lowered wages by competing for jobs with White Anglo Saxon Protestants. They did suffer considerable discrimination, but it lasted less than a generation. They quickly became the majority in cities such as Boston. These are the people who celebrate Saint Patrick’s Day.

  • STM

    Blair, I’m half Irish and live in Australia, where about 40 per cent of the entire population has some Irish background … discrimination here went on for 100 years. Trust me, mild discrimination against Catholics still goes on today in some countries. Not here thankfully, but elsewhere it still happens. Still, it’s nothing compared to what blacks have suffered in the US.

  • What’s the big deal?

    An apology has nothing to do with blame.

    An apology is needed because whites still continue to benefit from slavery after the fact, as blacks continue to suffer from some of the effects of 400 years of dehumanization.

    Nobody is asking anybody to fix anything, just acknowledge your privilege. A white deaf person has a huge advantage, (I call it natural affirmative action) over a black deaf person.

    Why is it so hard to acknowledge the hand-outs and hand up whites get just for existing?

    Apologize already. It’s not a big deal.

    Talk about greedy and evil!

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Black on black slavery existed in Africa long before White people found their way there and carries on to this day. Maybe Black people should apologise to Whites for corrupting them in the first place…

  • Joe Bo

    Walt Williams is not for slavery reparations. He was being facetious, not to be taken seriously. You must be a stupid moron by taking him literally.

  • blackvoice

    wow well, to not get personal i would have to say that the way that you expessed yourself was very offending. But i must say u had some very good points. Yes it is time that we jus move on and we shouldnt really care for an apology but at the same time WHO ARE YOU to say get over it!? You never have to deal with the evryday mistreatment that african americans deal with, dont have to watch movies or learn about the history of your people being stole away from their homeland, raped beatin and misplaced like nothing. Your a very narrow minded person and ill hope you find the light but i strongly believe that you are jus ignorant to the situation

  • JC

    stupid article, really just a dumb seem to be written by someone who have too much time on their hands, find something productive to do, and yes i believe you should have saught reparation or at least an apology for the people who have wronged deaf people, you are a let down to the deaf community, so dont brag about it!

  • http://www.Paotie.com Paotie

    Reparations for Deaf people? For what?

    :o)

    Paotie

  • YBW

    You say its time for black people to get over slavery and i say yeah right. How could we just forget that our race was subjugated into slavery. How could we forget that our ancestors were Raped and Beaten and Sold(away from their families),hunted down like dogs, unable to even get an education. How could we forget that they said it was alright to sale a black man because he was not a whole man becasue it took two or three black men to equal one white man. How could we forget that their is still a law where i believe it is every 25 years that a document has to be signed so blacks are still allowed to vote. How could we forget when the government still allows the confederate flag to still fly. How could we forget when the racism is STILL so strong toward blacks(Jena 6, Shawn Bell, etc…). How could we forget when so manys whites claimed that slavery has never happened. How could we forget when we see how the government could apologize to the Jews for the Holocaust but not to the Blacks for Slavery. How Could we foget when this very country we live in was built on the Backs of Slavery.

  • Franco

    #271 — YBW

    Anyone who would deny that slaver existed is insane, so pay them no mind.

    Free you mind of anger, hate, and rage, and your ass will follow.

    This is if you want to be free of these things.

    Things that we cling to so hard, even unhealthy things, can become like friends to us and letting them go can make us feel empty and even miss them.

    Find new friends to cling to. I kid you not, they are out there. As a man thinketh, so he is.

  • Captain Obvious

    The Walter Williams article is written tongue in cheeck, sarcastically. He is a conservative. Are you really too stupid to notice that? You thought his article was serious?

  • Max Shreck

    Good article. Hey Williams, not only is slavery a worldwide institution that is still going on, more blacks are enslaved right now in Africa by other blacks than were ever enslaved by whites in America. In actually, it was predominantly jewish households that owned the slaves in america, you know, the same people who bought them from the blacks who sold their own people in Africa. There were more CAUCASIAN SLAVES in the American colonies than there were blacks, in total. The Irish slaves were treated far worse than the blacks. This was disingenuously glossed over in public school, we they were falsely called “indentured servants” by the pc thought police. White men were enslaved for 500 years by the Ottoman Empire, they were called Slavs, and this practice created a word: “slave”. The white man owes nothing to the black man for slavery perpetuated by blacks themselves and jews. Africans selling their own people into slavery hundreds of years ago is not why black males, 6% of the population, commit 60% of the murders in this country. Genetically lower i.q. is the reason. Due to free handouts blacks in America have the highest standard of living of any blacks in the world, and interbreeding with whites and other races has raised thier average i.q. from the average of 70 which still persists in Africa, to around 83 in this country. Oh, you’re welcome Walter. You can thank us for you not living in a mud hut with a 70 i.q. You can repay us by stopping your whining and getting your homies to stop mass murdering our people and biting the hand that feeds it. “Gibs me dis, Gibs me dat!” Enough already.

  • Anonymous

    *Begins building survival bunker*

    PREPARE FOR SHITSTORM

  • Grammy

    All Blacks and anything goes Whites need to be able to decipher race from facts. Black’s entitlement days because of slavery should be over and done with. Blacks, Mexicans and Whites should ALL be responsible or their own failures.

  • What

    BLACK POWA

  • Lie

    BRITISH POWA

  • Frank Rizzo

    Lincoln freed the salves and that was good. telling them to join society and sending them on their own was bad. Blacks should have been put on reservations – just like the native americans. Native americans got screwed and still arent happy about it – but you rarely hear from them. why is that liberal media????

  • Samhain333

    Thats just it, blacks of today don’t REALLY wan’t to “get over” slavery because they actualy ENJOY their role as the enslaved race. They cherish it and like to exploit it to their advantage. They like the attention it afords them. It has been their very identity for so long and the very thing which has made their race so execeptional. It has also, you’ll notice, had the effect of making all their acomplishments as a race, even their most meager ones, seem that much more signifigant ( “they had to overcome great opresion to do it” ).

  • Igor

    Ex-slaveowners should get over slavery, too. It isn’t coming back, no matter how hard you wish and pretend.

  • http://www.urban-society.de hassia

    Your article validate authors such as the esteemed Time Wise.

  • jane

    Its impossible to ‘get over’ slavery. I’m sorry if that’s hard for you to understand.

  • Joan

    I find it annoying when people tell Blacks to get over slavery. Should Jews get over the Holocaust? Japanese-Americans get over being in internment camps or being blown to smithereens in Hiroshima? How about Native Americans being all but obliterated from their homeland? I’m sure you have been through unbelievable pain because of your disability (I’ve seen how deaf people are treated firsthand). But I would NEVER tell you to get over it because you will be judged, made fun of and discriminated against BECAUSE you are deaf and always will be. Unfortunately, that’s the same thing that will happen to me because of my skin color. What you should have done was create a dialogue that would have opened the door to a real discussion about discrimination in general and what can be done to combat it. I don’t let slavery define me, but I will never, EVER get over it because it allows me to appreciate all of the things others before me went through so that I can enjoy the life I have now. It also reminds me of the unbelievable hatred and cruelty in this country and that there are people who would love to go back to those “good ole days.”