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Israeli Government Planning to Split Jerusalem and Other Downers from the Middle East

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While Americans have been paying attention to their presidential race, things have been happening around them. Perhaps with the Palin wet t-shirt party raging in the press, nobody really wants to know. Sarah Palin brings everything a newsman wants in a story, controversy, sex and a pretty face. So, it falls to this writer to talk about the unpleasant things happening in and around the Middle East where pretty faces are as rare as pigs wearing lipstick.

First of all, an American consul general finally admitted what everybody has known for months and has been denying – that the Israeli government has been talking about splitting up Jerusalem in a so-called “peace” agreement. And according to the Jerusalem Post, the Kadima Party is in an uproar. Why they should be in an uproar is puzzling. These are the crooks and politicians who surrounded Ariel Sharon as he left the Likud Party specifically so that he wouldn’t have to sing shtei gadót hayardén “Both Sides of the Jordan” (the Revisionist Zionists’ anthem, adopted by the Likud) anymore and so that he could push the agenda of the Shlomtzion Party he had founded thirty-four years ago – a Arab State in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

If that were the only bad news, well, one could live with it. The Israeli government has been committing treason since it agreed to surrender Judea and Samaria in the Oslo “Peace” Accords that have only cost 5,000 lives so far. So, what else is new? Traitors in Jerusalem is a story as old as the Book of Ezekiel and the Book of Kings. That is not really news. It’s just that the piece of scum that sits in the prime minister’s chair, whatever his or her name turns out to be, can no longer deny (even though they do deny) that Israel is negotiating over Jerusalem. And the SHAS Party, the pack of crooks who bring an evil name to the Middle Eastern Jews they allege to represent, the same pack of crooks who promised to leave the government if Jerusalem were to be negotiated, can no longer sit in the Cabinet without showing themselves to be the utter prostitutes most of us have known them to be ever since they voted to bring YitzHak Rabin to power in 1992.

But there is more bad news – and nobody seems to be paying attention. Looking at the Debkafiles website one sees it piling up. Let’s take a glance away from the Palin wet t-shirt party for a moment, shall we?

First the good news, an old article from 12 July about extending the term of the head of the Mossad (Israel’s spy agency) into 2009 according to the article,

by extending the Mossad director, Meir Dagan’s tenure for another year until the end of 2009, Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert has put in place a vital constituent for a possible eleventh-hour unilateral strike at Iran’s nuclear facilities.

Given that the Islamic Republic has threatened to wipe us off the map, a pre-emptive strike to retard these efforts is the very least we in Israel should be planning. We do not have the capability to wipe Iran off the map, but we can at least try to “avert the severe decree”. But along with the sweet smelling rose comes the thorn. The Bush administration is refusing to sell or give Israel the equipment it needs to pull this off, or the permission to refuel over Iraqi airspace (which the United States presently controls). According to Arutz Sheva which is reporting this story, “Israel may soon be left with no realistic option to strike Iran’s nuclear facilities and no time to find another solution.” We see here the exact same pattern that we saw in Gruzia (Georgia) – the Americans betraying a country they pretend is an ally.

While the Americans twist the knife in Israel’s back, the Russians, determined to reassert their role as a world power, have been helping the Iranians build the Bushehr nuclear reactor. In addition, US-Russian naval rivalries have heated up in the Black Sea, Caspian Sea and Persian Gulf (Debkafiiles, 8 September), threatening to break out into real conflict in the near future. Russian units raided Georgian airfields (Debkafiiles, 6 September), airfields that Israel had hoped to use in a strike on Iran. Thus, the Russians effectively cut off another possible route of attack on Iran. Iran’s al Qods (the Iranian terrorist command), Hizballah secretly integrated rocket and commando units (Debkafiles, 7 September). According to this article,

this may not have been news to US vice president Dick Cheney, when he “revealed” Saturday, Sept. 6, that Russia had sold advanced weapons to Syria and Iran, some of which had been channeled to Lebanon and Iraq. However, Israeli president Shimon Peres, who responded by waving aside the need for an Israeli attack on Iran, was clearly out of the picture evolving ominously across the border in Lebanon. There, Iran and Syria are deepening their stranglehold on Lebanon and preparing to attack Israel by using al-Qods’ resources to further fortify Hizballah. The new accord enables the two terrorist machines to fight under a unified command controlled from Tehran.

According to Debkafiles, Israeli officials remain oblivious to the threat of direct Iranian control over HizbAllah by the Iranian terrorist network. It appears that American officials remain oblivious to the growing threat to them as well. Well, actually one American did not seem oblivious to the growing Russian threat. Asked about it in an interview Thursday, Sarah Palin said, “you can’t blink” – even if that meant conflict with Russia.

Hmm…. Let’s see how this might develop.

Two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers land in Venezuela, nuclear battle cruiser on way (Debkafiles 10 September), Iran diverts UF6 uranium from Isfahan to boost covert military nuclear project (Debkafiles 12 September), Russia lines up with Syria, Iran against America and the West (Debkafiles 12 September). This article deals with the fact that a permanent Russian presence in the Mediterranean is now a fact of life. According to Debkafiles, the Russians are not planning to start another Cold War in Europe. Based on what this writer knows of the background of the Russian prime minister, Vladimir Putin, a renewed Cold War is not in the cards. A good veteran of the Russian Spetsnaz is not going to settle for a Cold War. That is not how they fight. Debkafiles (let’s not forget that Debkafiles is the back door information drop of Israel’s Mossad – these are spies talking) summarizes the article this way.

In aligning with Tehran and Damascus, Moscow stands not only against America but also Israel. This volatile world region is undergoing cataclysmic changes at a time when Israel is virtually without a fully competent prime minister and key political and military decision-making by the rest of the government is at a standstill.

That’s sort of it for the bad news. Well, almost. This e-mail came to me from a lady who is a veteran in the news business.

Dear ____ , My contacts in the governments in both Washington and Jerusalem are telling me that nuclear war with Iran could be just weeks away.

I asked her if she could give me any verification. This was her answer.

This person has had close personal relationships with I believe every Israeli P.M since Shamir, and is in and out of the White House like a fiddler’s elbow. He is reliable and very truthful.

I don’t feel comfortable passing on what amounts to a rumor. But on the other hand, I don’t feel comfortable not publicizing this somehow. So, make of this what you will.

But the point that Debkafiles makes about the Israeli government – that it is leaderless and paralyzed – is the opening for what this writer views as the good news coming out of the region – and one of the few signs of hope for the People of Israel.

Last week, on 11 September, it was reported in the Jerusalem Post, “that soldiers clashed with settlers near the settlement of Yitzhar, south of Nablus, after they began throwing rocks at passing Palestinian cars.” The same article reported “in the Binyamin Region (where I live), settlers attacked officials from the Civil Administration of Judea and Samaria who had arrived at the illegal Yad Yair outpost to confiscate equipment that was allegedly being used for illegal construction.” The article itself complained that “settlers” were, according to the IDF, crossing “red lines” with their violence and that the judicial system was not being harsh enough with them.

Let’s see, a Jew fires into the air to defend himself from an Arab mob, and he is taken into custody, forced to explain his behavior. The Arab mob, which had attempted to murder him by pelting stones at his car was allowed to go free. A teenager protesting the illegal expulsion of Jews is jailed for months and called an enemy to the state, while when Arabs murder Jews routinely, the state does nothing. This has been the “narrative” of events for several years now. It is about time that Jews stopped asking for their rights as citizens and started taking them.

Arutz Sheva reported this evening that when an Arab terrorist stabbed a boy near Yitzhar, the residents attacked an Arab village. According to the article,

An Arab terrorist stabbed a nine-year-old boy at the Shalhevet (named after Shalhevet pass, a infant murdered by an Arab sniper Hevron) hilltop community near Yitzhar in Samaria on the Sabbath while he torched an empty house and tried to set fire to a second building. The boy suffered light injuries when he was attacked after spotting the Arab towards dawn. Dozens of residents of Yitzhar retaliated and attacked the adjacent Arab village of Asira al-Kabaliya, where it is suspected the terrorist resides. Villagers claimed that the Jews rioted in the village, destroyed houses, overturned vehicles and shot at least two Arabs. Arabs threw rocks and stones at the Jews until IDF soldiers arrived, broke up the riot sand slapped a curfew on the village. The troops arrested one suspect in the stabbing.

According to Arutz Sheva, Arab Knesset member, Ahmed Tibi, called the Jews “two legged animals, and Meretz Memeber of the Knesset Zahava Gal-On demanded that Security Minister Ehud Barak take action against the “violent settlers”. The fact that an Arab had attempted to burn buildings in a Jewish village was apparently unimportant in the eyes of the honorable traitor.

However, the good news here is that Jews finally are demonstrating that they no longer fear Arabs and that the violence between Jews and Arabs in Samaria has changed in its nature, with Jews attacking Arabs when Arabs attack Jews.

With the newspapers filled with nothing but downers about the Middle East, it’s about time.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    Don’t think for a second the U.S. will allow Israel to decide the time and terms of attack on Iran. That never has been and never will be the policy of any U.S. administration. You sound so indignant that we would restrict airspace and refuse to sell the necessary armaments. If we want the military capabilities of Iran preempted, we will do it ourselves, thanks.

  • Ruvy

    I don’t have any illusions about America’s policies, PETI. It is evident that it is not in America’s interest to see this country survive, thrive or prosper. Your government shoved Stanley Fisher down our throats as the Governor of the Bank of Israel – so that he could be your rag-sheeny and buy up millions of worthless dollars to prop up a worthless currency.

    You stuck your damned missile base in the Negev – and are barring Israeli personnel from it. Talk about imperial arrogance!

    Your government is willing to be the guarantor of an Arab terror state. On OUR land, so that it can kill OUR people. We know all about your government’s good intentions, PETI. Maybe you can sell einredenish to the guy who puts out Strategic Forecasting – but you can’t sell it to me.

    I know better.

    Bottom line: your government lost its balls years ago, and has been in the business of betraying “allies” like Israel and Georgia for decades….

    Don’t worry, boychick. Payment for America will come soon.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    You misunderstand me Ruvy. I don’t think this administration has any qualms about a preemptive strike. They just don’t want Israel doing our cost-benefit analysis for us. If we decide a preemptive strike on Iran is in OUR best interests, it will be done. The only reason the U.S. and Israel were ever and ever will be ‘allies’ is a coincidence of interests. States act rationally in their own self interest. There’s no such thing as betrayal in foreign diplomacy.

  • Ruvy

    I don’t misunderstand you at all, PETI. There are two cost benefit assessments to be done (which were figured out a long time ago). One deals with the Iranian missile threat to Israel. The second deals with the Iranian missile threat to America.

    The natures of the two different threats are totally different. Having already had a small dose of the Iranian missile threat realized on our own soil, we have good reason to not want another. This is as true for the traitors who’ll be hanging from a rope if Iran attacks again as it is for me, who would be happy to put these traitors’ heads in the noose and kick away the chair.

    America may not need to defang Iran. BUT WE DO.

    Put very simply, America is preventing Israel from protecting itself. Whether this is wrong or right is not an issue. But the consequences, both in the secular sense and the religious one, endanger not Israel, even though we will suffer heavy loss of life when (notice that’s when and not if) the Iranians attack, but rather America, which by its actions is cursing Israel. The bombardment of this country, whether by HizbAllah or by Iran directly, will cause America’s enemies to see it as a weak helpless giant. Among those enemies is a wolf from the Spetsnaz, Vladimir Putin. Don’t ever underestimate the viciousness or determination of this wolf.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    We’re not preventing you from doing anything we’re merely assisting you on our own terms :). I also question how imminent any nuclear threat from Iran is.

    There are reasonable Arabs. I have met many myself. And many can be persuaded by the influence of money. Even Ahmadinejad appears to be a rational man in his speech at Colombia University last year. He may have radical views, but all rational men can be reasoned with. And there are many more moderate Arabs who hope for peace or do not give a damn about Gaza. I think that unless something changes, and Ahmadinejad caves in to the most radical factions of his country, the U.S. is an adequate deterrent against Iran.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    PETI, I agree that there are many reasonable Arabs. Ahmadinejad is not an Arab and he’s not reasonable. Put aside the line of bullshit he lay down at Columbia and think about the things he spews when he’s safe in Iran. How about his holocaust denial conference? How about his statements about the total destruction of Israel? And don’t forget that he’s the front man for the Mullah’s whose regime has made the Shah look like a sweetie.

    But yes, the Iranians don’t have nukes yet, except maybe for a couple they bought on the black market – but I hear those were in Syria and got taken out by the Israelis.

    Dave

  • Ruvy

    From a different thread:

    Irene,

    This is what I found on Psalm 120
    From another thread:

    please see if you can find out what different rabbis have to say about “Mesech” and “Kedar.” Psalm 120 is very much on my mind right now.

    Psalm 120:

    120:1 A Song of Ascents. In my distress I called unto the L-rd, and He answered me.

    120:2 O the L-rd, deliver my soul from lying lips, from a deceitful tongue.

    120:3 What shall be given unto thee, and what shall be done more unto thee, thou deceitful tongue?

    120:4 Sharp arrows of the mighty, with coals of broom.

    120:5 Woe is me, that I sojourn with Meshech, that I dwell beside the tents of Kedar!

    120:6 My soul hath full long had her dwelling with him that hateth peace.

    120:7 I am all peace; but when I speak, they are for war.

    It took a bit to find this, but here is the text for those who don’t use a Bible.

    Taken from the Jewish Publication Society translation of 1917.

    Kedár is one of the sons of Ishmael. Méshekh is translated as the country that Gog comes from, as in méshekh v’tubál [Ezekiel 38]. This could be the United States – or it could be Russia. Opinions among rabbis vary. And of late, this subject has been the topic of lively discussion, as many rabbis think that George Bush is Gog. Others, looking at events, are not sure, noting that Bush’ term is nearly over.

    One result of these discussions is this from the Dreaming of Mashiach Website

    Generally this site is one I follow carefully (again ironies abound in my life – this is a written by a Satmar woman – I couldn’t stand the Satmar most of my life, and look where I’m turning for guidance!)

  • Ruvy

    PETI,

    I see you fail to comprehend the import of the article you see above you. The import is not somebody from the Middle East whining that the Sarah Palin wet t-shirt party is taking all the attention away from what is important to him. I and my fellow Israelis count little in all of this.

    The import is the threat that Russia presents to you in America. And damn it, it’s about time you woke the hell up!

    Russia is your enemy, and it is backing Iran, Syria and the HizbAllah in order to destabilize your power in the ME – what little is left of it. In addition, the Russians are setting up a base in Venezuela (Cuba’s usefulness is probably gone by now – the Cubans hate this regime almost as much as they hated Batista).

    What would cripple YOU would be an HEMP (or a pair of them) that knocks out your computer systems and electronics. It wouldn’t knock out all of your C $ C systems (many of which are far underground, effectively shielded from EMP’s), but would do for a start in inducing panic and chaos in your country. A Russian ship docked in Venezuela could deliver this blow if the Iranians couldn’t be counted upon to do so.

    That kind of a attack or series of them, mounted upon a month or two of “events” arranged by the present Russian equivalent of the Spetsnaz, all designed to lower morale in the States, is the kind of thing one can expect from somebody like Putin, a former member of the Spetsnaz himself.

    Perhaps I’ll have to spell this out for people who think that the big bad Russian bear disappeared with the disappearance of the hammer and sickle from the Russian flag. If you think this, you are sadly mistaken and badly in need of a wakeup call. The events in Gruzia (Georgia) should have served as that wakeup call.

    Forget Gruzia. The Russian have moved in and hold the aces, and are now collecting the chips. Start paying attention to all the other places they threaten your country.

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    NEWS UPDATES… NEWS UPDATES… NEWS UPDATES… NEWS UPDATES…

    U.S. to ‘guarantee’ Palestinian state Letter meant to bind Israel, PA, next administration in Washington

    The headline says it all. It won’t matter what Palin says, what McCain says or anybody else, according to the intent of the letter. Condi Rice will bind America to the death producing Bush promise of an Arab terror state in our midst.

    That was posted on 11 September in the World Net Daily

    At the Cabinet meeting today (14 September), the “crime minister” said “we will not allow “pogroms” against non-Jews”. The Jerusalem Post showing its true ideological colors, has been raging against “settler violence” for the last several days or so.

    Looking at the articles it recommends as related, they read like this:

    * Rise in settler violence feared
    * Analysis: Taming the ‘Wild West Bank’
    * MK Dr. Ephraim Sneh: A militia of thugs

    Uh huh… like these fools have any concept of what the Arabs who attack us want.

    Looking at the talkbacks gives a taste of how the new one-sided reporting at the Jerusalem Post is received. Some samples:

    2. Child wounded? 9 year old stabbed 5 times and house burned to bits

    Court Jew back in action. Respect? Behind their backs he’s collaborating to return lands once more. Rockets in the face in Gaza is not enough lesson. Does he draw borders clearly defined? Ff course not. The few against the many with the govt’ of the few and the many against the few. all of Israel is divine decreed settlement – (09/14/2008 11:38)

    3. Of course pogroms against sderot and western negev against Jewish residents are allowed

    6. Olmert is showing his true colours.
    He is little more than a mouthpiece for the Arab-Muslim enemy. This is the reality of Israel today: with “leaders” like Olmert, Ramon, and many others like them, who needs enemies?

    But it’s not all bad news. A bit of good news also in the mix. This is from Ha’aretz. U.S. to sell Israel Air Force new bunker-buster bombs
    By Aluf Benn and Amos Harel

    Apparently, amidst much misgiving, the Americans will allow Israel to buy the bunker-busting bombs it will need to destroy Iranian nuclear facilities.

  • http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/39420/joanne_huspek.html Joanne Huspek

    Ruvy, this disturbs me and I don’t even know the intricasies as well as you.

    Unfortunately for all of us, the US usually REACTS not acts. And we (the country) have been guilty of shortsightedness and self-absorbtion.

    I don’t know what else to say about your article, except that your point of view is necessary.

  • Cannonshop

    Ruvy, this pisses me off. Maybe I spend too much time eating lunch and talking with ex-ARVN and SE asians who remember another manipulative betrayal, I’m gobsmacked, don’t these assholes in D.C. learn Anything???

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    PETI, I agree that there are many reasonable Arabs. Ahmadinejad is not an Arab and he’s not reasonable. Put aside the line of bullshit he lay down at Columbia and think about the things he spews when he’s safe in Iran. How about his holocaust denial conference? How about his statements about the total destruction of Israel? And don’t forget that he’s the front man for the Mullah’s whose regime has made the Shah look like a sweetie.

    I know many of his views and the things he says are irrational. Part of it is culture. Part of it is politics. I think the man still has a rational interest in self-preservation. I may be wrong of course and we shouldn’t base our entire policy on the assumption that he will act rationally.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    The U.S. should guarantee Palestine. It prevents more aggression on the part of Israel which just makes them look bad to about 90% of the world.

  • Cannonshop

    um, PETI, if that line of reasoning worked, there wouldn’t be rockets landing in Israel from the safe ground of the Palestinian Authority, there wouldn’t be bus-bombings and student massacres.

    There would already BE peace.

    There isn’t. Your line of reasoning is a bit like the idea that if homeowners would only surrender their arms and rely on the police, home-invasion robberies and rapes would go away because the poor criminals wouldn’t need to be brutal, it’s the kind of thinking that tells a young girl “Dont’ resist the rapist, or he’ll hurt you even more”.

    NO.

    Appeasement does not work, PETI. It never has, it never will. It isn’t working now, and pursuit of it won’t in the future. Jerusalem was once divided, and while it was, it was used to stage attacks on Israel (that was the whole point of the 1967 war-to annihilate Israel.)

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    um, PETI, if that line of reasoning worked, there wouldn’t be rockets landing in Israel from the safe ground of the Palestinian Authority, there wouldn’t be bus-bombings and student massacres.

    There would already BE peace.

    I did not say guaranteeing Palestine and preventing attack by Israel would bring peace. I said it would stop Israel from looking bad to about 90% of the world. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth or stop posting if you cannot handle basic distinctions.

    Wars are rarely won by brute force but by winning the hearts and minds of your allies. Even if Israel would be more secure by controlling Palestine, they cannot do so because on principle they have no right to do so.

    Appeasement does not work, PETI. It never has, it never will. It isn’t working now, and pursuit of it won’t in the future. Jerusalem was once divided, and while it was, it was used to stage attacks on Israel (that was the whole point of the 1967 war-to annihilate Israel.)

    This is bullshit. I couldn’t count on both hands the number of times we appeased the Soviet Union during the Cold War. How about an explicitly reached missile trade? Ring any bells? The Cuban missile crisis was resolved by explicit appeasement by the Kennedy administration.

    People always take the failure of appeasement during WW2 as a matter of gospel. One example doesn’t make a thesis.

  • Cannonshop

    Okay, PETI, name ONE example where Appeasement did what it was supposed to do?

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    Lol. I just did. The Cuban Missile Crisis. We offered to remove our missiles from Turkey and promised to respect the sovereignty of Cuba for a withdrawel of Soviet missiles from Cuba. I could keep going.. the number of agreements we reached with the Soviet Union in which we made concessions to them is remarkable considering it was a ‘cold war.’

  • Cannonshop

    Yeah, but the Soviets also gave (and honored) concessions-it’s not appeasement if it’s one-sided and both sides at least make the attempt to honor their agreements. THAT is called “Diplomacy”.

    So far, the Palestinian record for honoring cease-fires, agreements, and treaties is negative-numbers. Israel gives concessions, the Palestinian militants kill more israelis, israel gives more concessions.

    YOu can’t buy peace from someone determined to make you extinct.

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I don’t know what else to say about your article, except that your point of view is necessary.

    Joanne, you may not realize this, but that is the kindest compliment you could have paid me. My point of view is extremely unpopular because I talk about things most folks don’t want to hear. But you – not I – said it was necessary.

    Thank you!

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    PETI,

    Cannonshop has been making my arguments for me, and he is right on the money. I will add a point that he might not add, though.

    I remember 1967. I remember how blacks in New York went around with huge Jewish flags to show their solidarity with the Jews of the world. I remember being numbed with joy and the shock of victory – and I was only a teenager in Brooklyn. But I was one damned proud Jew the first two weeks of June, 1967.

    And I remember 1973. I remember how blacks condemned us and called our country “not natural”. I remember African country after African country breaking off relations with Israel. I remember how country after country in Europe gave in to the Arabs with their oil boycott. Those are things I’ll never forget.

    And I learned a lesson from that, too. If the whole world hates you and wants you to die, you tell them to go fuck themselves; and when they bitch, you shoot them to shut them the hell up. You seize their property, you kick out their nationals, and you let them know in no uncertain terms that you do not need them – and that any act of hostility will be interpreted as an act of war, and be responded to accordingly. That is all the haters of Israel deserve.

    When people hate you, what they think does not matter. All that matters is what we do. As ben-Gurion said, “It doesn’t matter what the goyim think, it matters what we do.”

    And that is the bottom line. After a Nazi holocaust, after centuries of persecution from both Moslems and Christians, after an attempted genocide from the Romans, we Jews don’t have to look good for any of you. None of you are worth it.

    Of all the peoples in the world, only the Hindus did not try to kill us off or humiliate us, or steal our faith. Does that sound like I’m holding a grudge? Yeah, I am holding a grudge. And I have a right to.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Well, Ruvy, despite your hatred for everybody and everything, you still manage to drop a few nuggets of wisdom every now and then from your Ivory Tower. And this article is one of them.

    Thank you.

  • http:ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You are most welcome, Jordan.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    Yeah, but the Soviets also gave (and honored) concessions-it’s not appeasement if it’s one-sided and both sides at least make the attempt to honor their agreements. THAT is called “Diplomacy”.

    You obviously do not know the definitions of either of the terms you are throwing around.
    1) Appeasement IS diplomacy.
    2) Appeasement IS when both sides make and honor concessions. See the definition of appeasement here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

    So far, the Palestinian record for honoring cease-fires, agreements, and treaties is negative-numbers. Israel gives concessions, the Palestinian militants kill more israelis, israel gives more concessions.

    YOu can’t buy peace from someone determined to make you extinct.

    To compliment your simple understanding of the terms diplomacy and appeasement you have simplified the case of Palestinian attacks on Israel. Just because attacks continue when concessions are made does not mean tangible results cannot be achieved. Attacks are not made by all Palestinians.

    It is not true that all Palestinians are determined to make Israel extinct. The Fatah party officially recognized Israel’s right to exist. Moderate policies will enable those Palestinian moderates to grow in power.

    Oh, and I hit “Publish” too soon- The other thing, is that the agreements were enforced by mutually-assured-destruction. The soviets didn’t want to throw down because they didn’t want to die anymore than we did, and they had no bigger partner that would save and support them. NOT the situation in the Middle-East.

    I’m sure more than enough Palestinians have died to make the threat of Israel clear. In fact, the casualty rate of Palestinians may be higher than the casualty rate that the U.S. or the Soviet Union would have experienced in the event of nuclear war as a result of the Cuban missile crisis.


    And I learned a lesson from that, too. If the whole world hates you and wants you to die, you tell them to go fuck themselves; and when they bitch, you shoot them to shut them the hell up. You seize their property, you kick out their nationals, and you let them know in no uncertain terms that you do not need them – and that any act of hostility will be interpreted as an act of war, and be responded to accordingly. That is all the haters of Israel deserve.

    You’ve got a lot of killing ahead of you. Good luck with that.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption


    And that is the bottom line. After a Nazi holocaust, after centuries of persecution from both Moslems and Christians, after an attempted genocide from the Romans, we Jews don’t have to look good for any of you. None of you are worth it.

    Of all the peoples in the world, only the Hindus did not try to kill us off or humiliate us, or steal our faith. Does that sound like I’m holding a grudge? Yeah, I am holding a grudge. And I have a right to.

    Also I really REALLY don’t give a damn what people did to ‘your people’ 1000, 500, 100 or even 50 years ago. I don’t believe in group morality. And I certainly am not going to recognize any grudge you have against the descendants of any historical group. I don’t think a bit less of Germans today, but I’d convict an old dying Nazi war criminal in a heartbeat.

  • http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/09/14/010125.php owashsawo

    Ruvy
    may your enemies be put under your feet
    the time will come when the talking is over and action MUST be taken
    I look toward that time with anticipation and dread

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Also I really REALLY don’t give a damn what people did to ‘your people’ 1,000, 500, 100 or even 50 years ago. I don’t believe in group morality. And I certainly am not going to recognize any grudge you have against the descendants of any historical group.

    That’s nice.

    When you get to a certain age, PETI, if you have developed enough spine, you don’t give a damn about what other people think. Unlike ghetto Jews who live overseas in exile and have the gnawing fear of a pogrom in their guts (even as they violently deny it to themselves and the world) I don’t need you to validate my views of the world. I learned that philosophy from the great, martyred Rav Meir Kahane, may his memory be blessed, and may his blood be avenged.

    I always understood Jew-hatred intellectually. With a high enough IQ, that is no great accomplishment. But, I saw it with my own eyes, and felt it in my own guts, starting from the Munich massacre of Israeli athletes in Munich, extending to the way the world reacted to Israel and Jews in the War of the Day of Judgment, all the way to the day that Yasir Arafat (may his name be erased from Eternity) stood up in the UN, violating the NYC code forbidding carrying holstered arms, making his obscene speech, to the day that the UN passed its “Zionism is racism” resolution. In those days, I was still a Zionist, and I resented the lies adopted by a respected world body. I learned then that the UN was no longer worthy of my respect, and internalized the sense that if the world hates Jews, then G-d will judge the world according to the principle, “he who blesses Israel is blessed and he who curses Israel is cursed.”

    I am no longer a Zionist. Zionism is dead, having fulfilled its mission of bringing the people to the Land, and building up the Land. Its leaders quail like cowards, having been bought out by the United States and the European Union. The smell of the feces in their pants and their fear infests this Land like a cesspool, and they deserve only the hanging rope. In the words of the Torah, “the abomination shall be eliminated from the Land.”

    Just one point for you, PETI – remember this and remember it well. Yasir Arafat was a murderer who murdered or ordered the murder of American diplomats and private citizens as well, people like you. His organization, el-fataH, is an organization of murderers. If you delude yourself calling them “moderates” of any kind, you set the stage for your own demise by your own purposeful ignorance of history and of reality.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    NEWS UPDATES……NEWS UPDATES……NEWS UPDATES……NEWS UPDATES……

    ‘Olmert offers PA 98.1% of W. Bank’ From the Jerusalem Post, updated last at 10:50 15 September 2008.

    A brave man tastes death but once; a coward dies a thousand times. (W. Shakespeare)

    This article details the actions of a coward who deserves the hanging rope. All of the Israeli officials (if you want to cheapen the word by so describing them) talk like losers who have surrendered to an enemy without a fight. The last line of this article article, quoting Olmert (or is it eau le merde?) bizarrely reflects the Torah.

    There was no time to waste, Olmert said. adding: “We can argue about every small detail and find that when we are ready for an agreement there is no partner and no international support.” In the not too distant future, there would come a day when “we will want those same solutions that we are rejecting today,” he said.

    From the Parshat Ki Tavo (read this coming Sabbath) in the Torah:

    In the morning you will say,”who can give back the night!” And in the evening you will say, “who can give back the morning!” — for the fright of your heart that you will fear and the sight of eyes that you will see.[d’varím/Deuteronomy 28:67]

  • Cannonshop

    PETI, your attitude reflects exactly the kind of ignorance that mass-murdering dictators rely on. Hitler said “no one remembers the Armenians” in reference to an Event in the early 20th century in which the Ottomans killed over a million Armenian civilians for the crime of being…armenians. He then went on to exterminate six million people, mostly Jews, but also Gypsies and people aligned with groups he didn’t care for.
    Stalin killed forty million people in the 1930’s in the Ukraine, and Pol-Pot’s “Year Zero” pogroms killed over a million (they’re not really sure how many-they stopped counting after the numbers reached seven figures) people for crimes like speaking other languages, being able to read, and wearing glasses.

    What has been done in the past, MATTERS.

    ‘m sure more than enough Palestinians have died to make the threat of Israel clear. In fact, the casualty rate of Palestinians may be higher than the casualty rate that the U.S. or the Soviet Union would have experienced in the event of nuclear war as a result of the Cuban missile crisis.

    BULLSHIT. There aren’t a hundered million palestinians, much less palestinian fighters, and if the U.S. and soviet union had not made an agreement, it would have been EVERYBODY who died. Strontium 90 has a half life measured in five digits (about ten times ten to fourth power) years. My stepfather loaded 5, 10, 15, and 20MT bombs on everything that could fly at Ellsworth during that stand-off. The weapons just “On the way” would be sufficient to render the surface of the earth uninhabitable for thousands of years. This doesn’t include the missiles themselves, or the missiles. nor the bombers on alert and heading the other way. In 1963, an all-out nuclear exchange kills EVERYBODY, including Africa, China, all of asia (including indonesia’s islands), Australia (radioactive trade winds) Europe…everybody.

    BILLIONS, PETI. The only difference between the folks in the shelters, and the folks on the ground above is how long it takes them to die, and whether they’re burned, blind, bleeding and shitting themselves to death while organs liquefy, or just starving because when the stockpiles run out, you’re dead anyway-there’s no way to remove radioactive contamination on a widespread scale.

    by way of comparison, the Israeli/Palestine conflict is a slap-fight between kids. ON the other hand, the conflict between Israel and the rest of the Middle East is Israel wants to live, the rest of the region wants to exterminate them, Hitler-style.

    Historically, further, PETI, you might consider that every time Israel’s borders grew from founding of the modern state, to the beginning of the appeaser’s reign, it was the result of a COUNTER attack.

    1949
    1956
    1967
    1973

    They didn’t start ANY of those wars, but they finished them. You might also consider this: Those refugee camps? those people were kicked out of Syria and Jordan, so much for ‘brotherhood’ between Arabs.

    Further: There are Muslims who are also Israelis, have the same rights as other Israelis, vote, own property, work, and are terrorized by the same people terrorizing other Israelis. They have a legal political party with seats in the Knesset, their sons go to war in Israeli uniforms, serve alongside other Israelis who are not muslim, and are in just as much danger from these appeasement policies as other Israelis. A suicide-bomb, Katyusha rocket, car-bomb, etc. makes no distinctions.

    AND…

    The Israelis are NOT the ones who triggered off the Hamas/Fatah internal fighting of the last three years in the Palestinian Authority. Israelis DID shelter refugees from that, provide medical care to injured noncombatants, etc. etc.

    This may not have been in Israel’s long-term interests, but they did it anyway. By contrast, goddess help you if you’re a heathen Infidel and you need to ask a Muslim country for help.

  • Ruvy

    Cannonshop,

    Thank you very much. A couple of points, just to keep the narrative accurate.

    1. The Israelis started the Sinai campaign in 1956, working in concert with Britain and France. The British and French withdrew at the fist sneeze of the Americans and Soviets in concert. The Israelis withdrew from the Sinai, but held on to the Gaza Strip until March 1957, when the UN agreed to put soldiers in the Sinai desert between Israel and Egypt. In 1967, Nasser demanded the withdrawal of these soldiers and moved his divisions into the Sinai, while his naval forces blockaded the Red Sea. This set the stage for the Six Day War – where Israel struck pre-emptively to bring an end to a siege that could have shut the country down altogether.

    2. Cherkess Moslems serve in the IDF, and Bedouin serve as trackers – they volunteer for service, they are not inducted. Druze serve in the IDF as well, though they are inducted as are Jews. However, the remainder of the Arab Israelis are not required to serve in the IDF.

    In essence, though, again, you have made my arguments for me. I ought to send you a police uniform. I could use a guy like you on patrol with me in Jerusalem….

  • Cannonshop

    Thanks for the compliment, Ruvy, AND the corrections.

  • Cannonshop

    Oh, and this may amuse thee a bit…

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    PETI, your attitude reflects exactly the kind of ignorance that mass-murdering dictators rely on. Hitler said “no one remembers the Armenians” in reference to an Event in the early 20th century in which the Ottomans killed over a million Armenian civilians for the crime of being…armenians. He then went on to exterminate six million people, mostly Jews, but also Gypsies and people aligned with groups he didn’t care for.
    Stalin killed forty million people in the 1930’s in the Ukraine, and Pol-Pot’s “Year Zero” pogroms killed over a million (they’re not really sure how many-they stopped counting after the numbers reached seven figures) people for crimes like speaking other languages, being able to read, and wearing glasses.

    What has been done in the past, MATTERS.

    I didn’t say it doesn’t matter. I said I don’t give a damn. IE don’t feel any pity towards the descendants of any historically victimized group. Just like I don’t feel any pity for modern African Americans because their ancestors were enslaved. Of course history matters, why do you think I’ve been using historical analogies myself?

    BULLSHIT. There aren’t a hundered million palestinians, much less palestinian fighters, and if the U.S. and soviet union had not made an agreement, it would have been EVERYBODY who died. Strontium 90 has a half life measured in five digits (about ten times ten to fourth power) years. My stepfather loaded 5, 10, 15, and 20MT bombs on everything that could fly at Ellsworth during that stand-off. The weapons just “On the way” would be sufficient to render the surface of the earth uninhabitable for thousands of years. This doesn’t include the missiles themselves, or the missiles. nor the bombers on alert and heading the other way. In 1963, an all-out nuclear exchange kills EVERYBODY, including Africa, China, all of asia (including indonesia’s islands), Australia (radioactive trade winds) Europe…everybody.

    BILLIONS, PETI. The only difference between the folks in the shelters, and the folks on the ground above is how long it takes them to die, and whether they’re burned, blind, bleeding and shitting themselves to death while organs liquefy, or just starving because when the stockpiles run out, you’re dead anyway-there’s no way to remove radioactive contamination on a widespread scale.

    I think you dramatically underestimate defenses and overestimate the nuclear capabilities of both countries in 1963, especially the Soviet Union’s. Show me the statistics, not family history and excerpts from science fiction novels.

  • Irene Wagner

    Hi Ruvy – I’m printing everything (links, article.) Thanks for reviewing Ps 120 from your perspective for me.
    …my comment to you re: spiritual killing was #161 in 9/4/08 Media Bias and Sarah Palin. Again, thanks for the research.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Irene,

    Always a pleasure. Glad I could help somehow.

    Don’t do it though, Ruvy, don’t ever again mention the name Irene Wagner within one sentence of Sarah Palin (please.)

    I won’t since you ask so nicely.

    But…. Don’t you live up in Idaho amidst all those potatoes? Didn’t I see you mention Boise at one point during the primary season when you were rooting for the honorable congressman from the 16th CD in Texas?

    Didn’t Sarah Palin go to school in Idaho?

    You wouldn’t happen to know the young lady, would you? From your comments about your kids, you sound to be around the same age. Just wondering….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Irene,

    The only reason I mentioned spiritual killing in that comment was that otherwise, the text might have been interpreted as a personal threat to the life of the author – something I would never mean, but something that a comments editor might infer anyway.

    I know it doesn’t appear that way, but I am careful (typos asiide) with what I say on this forum.

    The rough translation of the text from the Talmud is “if [a man] approaches to bless you, bless him first; [if he approaches] to kill you, kill him first”.

  • Cannonshop

    #32 Peti, what’s next, flying saucers? I’m aware of the Nike-Sprint project…and its failure, and the ABM treaty of 1962. I’m also familiar with anti-missile systems several generations newer than was available in 1962 and 63, their relative accuracy, and the utter BULLSHIT of your statement, having worked on those systems.

    You’re what, eighteen, maybe? You listen to too much Art Bell and Alex Jones. There was nothing in Area 51 but jet aircraft, and nothing special in Hangar 18 at Nellis. If that war had gone hot, we would not be alive to have this discussion, nor would anyone else. Nuclear weapons of that era were designed to be as big a boom as could be got, because “accuracy” was a non-issue, there was NO precise strike capability, it was volume-volume-volume on both sides.

  • troll

    Ruvy – …believing that you are someone who is as careful with his words as you claim to be I assume that your movement from the translation: ‘if someone approaches you to kill you then kill him first’ to your previous translation: ‘if someone wants to kill you then kill him first’ is made consciously – by what logic do you draw the equivalence between desire and intention – ?

    imo this conflation leads to the moral turpitude of your more violent proposals

  • Irene Wagner

    I’m sure I must be a casual acquaintance of someone who knew someone who had her nails done at the same salon as Sarah Palin, but I don’t have any more details about her than what I’ve read in the news. I certainly don’t want to run down her character (again, I don’t know anything about her) but I don’t want anyone to think I’m one of those undecided Christian female voters who suddenly went all “Mcainiac” after Palin became the VP candidate! I’d rather be a Paultard than a Mcainiac. :)

    ***
    This “kill your enemies” vs. “love your enemies” debate sounds like it might be very interesting. To everything, there is a season, but it’s hard to know what season it is, sometimes. It’s my season to listen.

  • pleasexcusetheinterruption

    #32 Peti, what’s next, flying saucers? I’m aware of the Nike-Sprint project…and its failure, and the ABM treaty of 1962. I’m also familiar with anti-missile systems several generations newer than was available in 1962 and 63, their relative accuracy, and the utter BULLSHIT of your statement, having worked on those systems.

    I wasn’t talking about missile defense systems. I was talking about defense against nuclear bombers. The Soviets didn’t have any Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles in 1963.

    You’re what, eighteen, maybe? You listen to too much Art Bell and Alex Jones. There was nothing in Area 51 but jet aircraft, and nothing special in Hangar 18 at Nellis. If that war had gone hot, we would not be alive to have this discussion, nor would anyone else. Nuclear weapons of that era were designed to be as big a boom as could be got, because “accuracy” was a non-issue, there was NO precise strike capability, it was volume-volume-volume on both sides.

    I have never even heard of Art Bell or Alex Jones. This is the first I’ve ever heard of them. I’ve never read anything about area 51 by choice, and I haven’t heard anything about hangar 18.

    Why do you think the Soviets wanted missiles on Cuba? Because none of the missiles they had at the time could reach American cities.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Irene,

    Your comment about Governor Palin is the place to make some things very clear.

    1. I don’t particularly like a lot of Christian doctrine, BUT Sarah Palin appears to feel that G-d is real in her life, and she works (sorta) from the same prophetic texts that I do. That means she is a person worth talking to, not as a Jew hustling an American to help Israel (you’ve all had enough of those), but as one believer in G-d’s prophecies trying to convince another believer in G-d’s prophecies to avoid disaster for her own nation by NOT forcing a nation of Jews to do what their corrupt leaders are wont to do – violate their Land Covenant with G-d and cede territory to an enemy for a false peace.

    Ezekiel 38/39 does not HAVE to come true. The “severe decree” CAN be averted by prayer, and by proper action. This is a fundamental tenet of the religion of the Children of Israel.

    2. First, a Jew who thinks like I do has to approach Sarah Palin somehow; then Governor Palin has to agree with the approach of that Jew; and then she has do her utmost to see to it that John McCain brings a blessing upon his nation rather than the curse his present advisers will bring by agreeing to an Arab terror state in the midst of the Land.

    3. Put simply, the United States has to do a u-turn on its “Palestine” policy, abandon the PA, abandon the concept of an Arab terror state here, abandon the concept of forcing a nation of Jews to cede their own land to an enemy sworn to kill them.

    3. That is the price of this Jew in order to get him to send an absentee ballot voting for John McCain. I do not want to vote for a Jew-hater like Obama, but since at the present time both McCain and Obama have the same basic policy for Israel – forcing her to cede land to an enemy for a phony peace that will never come – I’d rather have the obvious enemy in the White House, so that I can point him out to every single reservist I know – and get the reservists to ditch the traitors and ghetto kikes in J-lem who will do his bidding.

    4. The blessings that would accrue to your nation for taking this u-turn would be huge, because frankly, it isn’t prophesied in the Bible. Men using free will will have gone against Biblical prophecy – and by doing so, as well as blessing Israel, will have proven themselves to be like Abraham and Moses in their greatness. Very possibly, an act like that would usher in the Redemption and the messianic age as an age of peace, rather than an age of war.

    Looking at it all from my little roost in the Samarian mountains, those are the stakes; that’s how it all shakes out.

    5. Finally, this does not mean that I would assume that merely because G-d is real in your life that you would support the McCain ticket. You need to vote according to what is best for you in Idaho.

  • Cannonshop

    #39 PETI, if you can reach orbit, you can hit anywhere in the world. The Soviets had boosters quite capable of lofting warheads to hit N.America from central asia, this was one of the main reasons Sputnik and Soyuz were big deals and it was one of the main drivers for ballistic-missile based space-launch. (Redstone, Atlas, and Titan among others). Missile and warhead delivery gaps were a major issue in 1960, and if the U.S. threw down with the soviets, the Intermediate and short range weapons stationed in Europe would have been part of the game plan, and were in fact on alert at the time, and when told to stand down, had five minutes left before the buttons got pushed.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cannonshop, PETI,

    Your arguing has kept this thread alive. I appreciate that. I just wanted to mention that I do not expect a repeat of the Cold War.

    The last chapte4r of Victor Suvorov’s book, “Spetsnaz” details what a Spetsnaz type attack might look like. Even though it is 22 years out of date, it gives an idea of the kind of mentality the United States (and everyone else) faces in dealing with Vladimir Putin, a veteran of the Spetsnaz.

    I do not believe that we will face a MAD situation either. I think that Putin will attack the United States, and that when he does it will be with very unconventional weapons that do not involve nukes – or at least do not involve nukes used to destroy cities and military bases.

    A major nuclear exchange would be fatal. Cannonshop is right about that.

    This is the reason that i keep warning you all about Putin. He is far more dangerous than most folks realize.

  • georgio

    Ruvy..I have a simple question ..Do you think Iran would nuke Israel if they had nukes knowimg they would be wiped off the map..so far everyone who has them have not dared to use them knowing full well they would also get hit back ..thank you

  • cuervodeluna

    The only news from the Middle East that would NOT be a downer is the de-countrification of Israel.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Ruvy,

    I was just finishing up a lengthy comment agreeing with you (except for the biblical stuff, with which you would not expect me to agree) and it vanished into the aether. I was in the process of checking on the spelling of Hannibal Lechter, having suggested that negotiation and appeasement would work just as well with him and Charlie Manson as with those whose controlling passion is to wipe Israel off the map.

    You have a big problem over there, and we have an even bigger one in the U.S., just because we are bigger and have more lives at stake. Sure, Israel will probably go first, but the U.S. won’t be far behind.

    The situation is, from my perspective, worse than that in Europe and Britain back during the mid 1930s, when most believed that Hitler’s Germany would be nice if given just a little more land belonging to other countries. Didn’t work. Churchill was vocal in claiming that it wouldn’t, and his views were accepted reluctantly and only after it had become almost too late. Hitler’s Germany was defeated, but only at a far greater cost than it could have been years earlier.

    I gather that you have found no leader in Israel who is likely to do anything useful. I hope that I am wrong, and if you can think of someone over there who has even a minuscule chance of redeeming the situation, I would like to know. As to the U.S. — The chances seem to range from none to slim, at best. Senator Obama? Nah and ha-ha. Senator Biden, ditto. Senator McCain, Nah (but no ha-ha). Governor Palin, doubtful but just a very, very weak maybe.

    Good luck, Ruvy. You and we will need all we can get.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’ve been quiet because a virus messed up my hard drive a week ago. These comments come from an internet cafe in J-m.

    I see that Moonraven is back. I’m surprised that Chris Rose didn’t jump all over her presence (not her comment – her presence). He understands Spanish better than I do and certainly can spot “cuervo de luna”.

    Hi, Marthe….

    Giorgio,

    An attack on Israel from Iran and its proxies will not be nuclear in nature. More likely poison gas will be used in missiles aimed at the coast.

    Dan,

    If I thought Israel would go “first”, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be elswewhere. Do you seriously think I’ll put my life, and that of my family on the line for something so nebulous as a threat of war that would destroy Israel first?

    No, Dan.

    There is a G-d, and while He does not always seem just in His actions, He does not lie. Your nation will be judged and will fall. It’s falling around your face. When yoru gov’t mints that $700 billion to bail out these financial institutions that will spark more inflation and Americans will make themselves more dependent on creditors – who will demand to call the American tune. When they do, it will be very ugly for you all. Unless America’s evil regime does a u-turn on shoving an Arab terror state down our throats, America certainly will fall.

    Irene has not answered, as you may have noticed.

  • Cannonshop

    Welcome Back, Ruvy. About a week, you say? My machine got attacked (but the virus failed to get very far) about a week ago.

    funny, that…