Today on Blogcritics
Home » Israeli Apartheid is Oppressive

Israeli Apartheid is Oppressive

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

Many people compare the Palestinian's plight to that of South Africans living under apartheid; two peoples living in one country in completely separate circumstances, one being oppressed and treated inhumanely at the rule of the other. Israel's separation wall that is being erected, at its current course annexing yet more Arab land reinforces the Israeli apartheid view.

Palestinians — like South Africans under apartheid — are suffering a great deal, especially in Gaza where they have been forced by an EU and US boycott to live in poverty as bad as anywhere else in the world. Unlike South Africans there is no significant campaign to stop the oppression. The British anti-apartheid movement became extremely popular across the western world, attracting the support of the Labour and Liberal Democrat parties. Its campaign of boycotting the South African regime, with such popular support, made a big difference in ending the apartheid, according to the people who lived under the regime.

Last year, in a cry for similar support, authoritative members of Palestinian civil society called for an academic, consumer, and cultural boycott of Israel as well as divestment from churches, universities, states, cities, unions, banks and anyone else who wants to take part. The text of the call was:

We, representatives of Palestinian civil society, call upon international civil society organizations and people of conscience all over the world to impose broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era. We appeal to you to pressure your respective states to impose embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We also invite conscientious Israelis to support this Call, for the sake of justice and genuine peace.

These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:
1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

The call was endorsed by 171 Palestinian organizations, campaigns, unions and refugee rights associations, as the original call said: from "the three integral parts of the people of Palestine: Palestinian refugees, Palestinians under occupation and Palestinian citizens of Israel." The boycott –which could become a major part in the fight to end Israeli oppression– has begun. Several factors are stopping it from having the popular support from mainstream media and western governments enjoyed by the South African anti-apartheid movement:

One: The similarities between Israel treatment of the Palestinians and the South African Apartheid is not commonly connected, especially in the mainstream media, which for whatever reason refuses to make the connection.

Two: We live in a world ruled by the U.S, with Israel by their side, Israel have been extremely keen to have any form of boycott or divestment labelled as anti-Semitic, an almost equal campaign by pro-Israeli media and journalists has begun for people to boycott the boycott.

Three: Fear of terrorism, which gives weight to Islamaphobia and credibility and therefore increasing popularity to far-right wing groups and political parties, happily criticising the entire Muslim community as terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. This means that the Palestinians actively fighting the oppressive Israeli occupation with the only means they have, is played out in the media and therefore seen by the world as terrorism.

Four: Al Qaeda continually seeking to affiliate its cause, which is, in short the murder of Americans and their allies anywhere in the world, with the Palestinians cause, seeking to live in an independent and oppression free-state, and be treated as equals by the world. This adds weight to the media stories, and that the Palestinians fighting the occupation are part of the same Islamic Extremist ideology that is a threat to the western world.

All these factors combine to prevent the calls for boycott and divestment of Israel, attempting similar activities as the anti-(South African)-Apartheid movement and with a similar cause, freeing a people from an oppressive and racist regime, from enjoying anywhere near the same level of support. The campaign is young and this is my way of helping.

Israeli academic and author Ilan Pape is a strong supporter of the boycott. In a recent interview given to Christopher Brown, Mr Pape said of the boycott's value in achieving a just solution for the Palestinians:

"It will be very hard in this globalized world we live in to bring about economic sanctions, which would have been the most effective in forcing a change in Israeli policy.

The second best, and more feasible, [way] is to send a message to Israel from the societies at large that its policies are unacceptable, that as long as it continues to do what it does it cannot be accepted … It cannot be in the community of civilized nations.

I think there is both a symbolic and a very political significance to a coordinated reaction by societies in the west for a message, a clear message, that is conveyed in the way of a boycott of divestment or any other symbolic act which says that there is a price tag attached to the policies that you pursue and as long as you pursue these policies, you are not welcomed here. Not as individuals — you are not welcomed here if you represent a certain ideology, a certain state, and especially if you appear as an official representative of this state."

To the Israeli claims that the boycott is anti-semitic Mr Pape said: "the Israelis are over-using the anti-semitic accusation against anyone who criticizes them. Not only [against] those who call for a boycott, even the mildest criticism of Israel is depicted here as an act of anti-semitism. Maybe one or two known anti-semites have joined the wagon, but that doesn't prove anything. The fact is that Israel wants to be immune from any criticism. And the shield it uses is always anti-semitism."

Mr Pape's final word in the interview was:

"Israel needs a wake-up call. Israelis don't know that this is what the world thinks about them and I think that civil societies around the world can be the alarm clock for them, and they should be the alarm clock."

The daily violence Palestinians have to endure under Israeli occupation, combined with what can safely be called "measured" "genocide" and intentions to ethnically cleanse the West Bank, should mean Palestinians have the massive support of all campaigners against oppression. They don't.

This boycott is a way that you and I can support the Palestinians struggle, a way to let Israel know that the developed and civilized world will no longer tolerate their behaviour, even if our governments will. I will be supporting it, click here to find out how you can too.

Powered by

About Liam Bailey

  • http://www.sitekreator.com/crucible/index.html Howard Dratch

    At least we now know that Mel Gibson was right. The Jews are responsible for all the world’s evils, even traffic cops and Tony Blair. Maybe George Bush is, according to you, secretly Jewish.

    Your blog remains one-sided.

    As 7/7 and the MI5 chief’s announcement showed, this separatism has been increasingly turned into extremism by radical clerics and terror groups. Therefore, because of these ill thought out policies, especially those put into force since January, the U.K. now faces an incredible threat from “home-grown” Islamic terrorism.

    If we believe you the US, Tony Blair and Israel have gotten together to force the poor young Islamic crazies to plan evil acts of violence and mass murder in the UK.

    It’s a fishy type of logic you have there.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Oh Liam, you’re SO cute with your leftwing anti-Semitic shtick. Couple of Palestinian losers blow up some of YOUR people like the Israelis endure constantly, and I bet you’d change your ridiculous attitude – or you’d be dead one. Defend yourself, or let them kill you – whichever works for you.

  • http://olehmusings.blogspot.com michael

    Liam:
    You did leave out a few things which counter your comparison.

    First, apartheid was so awful because it was a small minority keeping a large majority (around 90% of the population) oppressed

    Second, in the case of the Palestinians, they chose not to have independence: in 1947 the Arabs uniformly rejected the partition of Palestine, killing a chance for a Palestinian Arab state.

    Third, the Palestinian, a minority in Israel (albiet a large minority) have been engaged in a terrorist campaign since 1949 aimed at destroying Israel. It wasn’t until after the ’67 war that they even started demanding a state of their own.

    Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with facts before you start writing long posts.

  • Liam Bailey

    Howard Dratch: You can’t deny the relationship, in the article you refer to, I quoted Eliza Mannigham Buller to back up my facts. MI5’s caseload had multiplied ten fold since January last year, can you give me any reasons for that, other than the ones I stated in the article?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Liam,

    You continue with the same blather in article after article, repeating the lies of the anti-Israel and ultimately Jew-hating media in England and Europe, as well as the lies of the Arab media in your home country. Let’s put some truth from someone living in this nation as opposed to the lies that you continually repeat from without.

    The facts are, simply put, that apartheid IS practiced in this nation – against Jews. Jewish Israeli citizens are banned from areas A & B within the sovereign State of Israel, rendering the sovereignty of what calls itself “the Jewish State,” a sick joke. IN addition, making this sovereignty even a sicker joke, the unwillingness of the Israeli government and its agent, the IDF, to crush Arab terror, means that Jewish Israeli citizens are effectively banned from all parts of Area C that are without the village or town boundaries. This means that Israeli Jews travelling to Ma’aleh Levona, for example, either travel in bullet-proof buses or take their own lives in their hands travelling in regular civilian vehicles. The only way a Jewish Israeli travels into Ramallah is in a tank. If he attempts any other vehicle, he will be dead within minutes.

    Israeli Arabs are free to go to any part of this country without restriction. Arabs under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority are free to travel withing areas A & B, and the Gaza Strip. In addition, with the proper papers, they are free to travel within the remainder of the State of Israel. Given that areas A & B are to be a “state on the way,” they are treated as foreigners outside of these areas.

    I frankly don’t give a damn which authorities you appeal to. I have my own eyes to act as my authorities, and they are sufficient. Remember, I live here. You can’t bullshit me.

    I’ll leave my co-religionists to argue with you, to the degree they are willing to.

    I have other fish to fry and won’t waste my time.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, setting aside for a moment the rights and wrongs of both sides in this dispute, I really don’t see how you imagine your outpourings of hatred and calls for the use of nuclear bombs against both Israel’s external enemies and, even more shamefully, your own people are making any kind of sane contribution to the situation.

    You can only trust your own eyes to the degree that what they see isn’t being dictated by and limited to your own pre-existing ideas. Do you think you can transcend that?

    Whilst you’re at it, how exactly do you think that living in Israel makes you immune to “bullshit”?

  • ProfEssays

    The Oppression of the Israeli Apartheid doesn’t exist at all. Arabs should be grateful to Israel for a chance to be living in Palestine because Jews can easily evict them from Palestine for ever and all the Arabs and Mouslems won’t be able to prevent them from doing so.

  • RedTard

    The leftist gargbage is real simple.

    1)Palestinian nutjobs and fanatical morons cannot be controlled (and they’re much scarier than law abiding Israelis), get that through your head first.

    2)Therefore, the only solution must be to control the Israeli government as that is the only remaining option. It’s called pragmatism.

    Since most sane people would view palestinian bombers as the “bad” guys this presents a problem. How do you punish the Israelis for being murdered? Simple, toss in a little moral relativistic propaganda and a few nonsense accusations, rinse, and repeat and in time it will become truth.

    The question is whether our dear Liam is actually aware of the ploy and willfully partaking as a good soldier or if he’s just a misguided lemming sucking up the propaganda from those above him and regurgitating it. My guess is the latter.

  • Bliffle

    “Apartheid” is the wrong word to use. This is obviously an attempt to hitch a ride on a powerful political bandwagon and will cause most people to reject it, regardless of it’s worthiness. Most people will resent the obvious attempt to manipulate them, and that alone may explain why 14 people resigned from Jimmy Carters operation: regardless of ones position regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict, “apartheid” is a brute force manipulation that will result in opposition from those you sought to bludgeon into conformity.

    Drop it.

  • Zedd

    Al Berger sed: Couple of Palestinian losers ….

    In this case YES they are losers. They lost their homeland. They lost everything. And YES their mad. What should they do???

  • Zedd

    Biffle

    Apartheid is very appropriate. When South African apartheid was in place Americans did nothing; rationalized it, complicated the situation so that it wasn’t a matter of good and evil, demonized the Blacks (called them terrorist)… I remember it all.

    Biffle this is an opportunity to see evil for what it is, when it is instead of waiting for hind site to sanctify you.

    Its always the case: during civil rights , in Germany in Hitlers time; people pontificate and rationalize evil then tisk away when its over, about how and why it could have happened.

    Wake up and take a stand

    Its evil!!

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro nicolo

    Don’t buy it. The day Arabs look in the mirror is the day I’ll listen. The fact remains much of their pain is self-inflicted. Not that I’m dismissing their plight I’m just rejecting their excuses.

  • Zedd

    alessandro

    Look in the mirror about what. If someone took your home and all of your family member’s homes, locked you Wisconsin in the middle of ho where and gave you curfews and had armed guards patrolling you 24/7 would you not be fighting back however you can???

    If you were not under siege and no one had provoked you, then YES look in them mirror, something is wrong with you.

  • Jesus

    Israel is no better than south Africa.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    What, Jesus, you again? I thought the Romans had nailed you to cross and gotten rid of you for us! If you don’t want to be king of the Jews, keep yer trap shut!

  • Franco

    Liam Bailey,

    I can not distinguish clearly enough from what you assert in your opinion pieces to know whether you are…

    #1) simply and innocently “prejudice” (bias with out fact), or

    #2) in possession of the most relevant fact, but have chosen to leave if out of your article for obiouse reasons.

    The one fact that you leave out of your article stands alone in ripping your assertions to shreds. What is it?

    The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

    The Covenant is a deeply religious oath taken between the members of Hamas.

    Hamas is the Arabic acronym for “The Islamic Resistance Movement” (Harakat al-Muqawamah al-Islamiyya).

    It was created as the armed wing of the religious revivalist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan al-Muslimin) in Gaza, in 1987 or 1988. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era.

    The Hamas Covenant is virulently uncompromising in its goals.

    Hamas, whom the Palestine people themselves elected, will not (1) recognize Israel’s right to exist, and (2) aggressively intend to bring about Israel’s complete and total destruction as written in their Covenant. and (3) Hamas have printed all these principles through their social charity work into elementary school text books that stand today as required reading.

    These beliefs along with others has been feed to the children of Palestine during and since the days of Yasser Arafat Today those once innocent young minds are now adults filled with hate. This cycle of religious hate training is well established and there are a lot more chidden coming up the ranks.

    Here are excerpts from the Hamas Covenant, which represents the desires of the Palestinians through their elections.

    “Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realized.”

    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

    “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

    ‘The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

    Relisgious teachers and other educational interests implemented in Palistine.

    “Jews are the cursed enemy of Allah, and killing Jews has been repeatedly presented as a religious obligation. PA leaders preach that the battle with Israel is not merely over borders but to kill Jews. Palestinian Television has glorified the exploits of suicide and other terrorists, in documentaries, in religious teaching and other forum”

    Palestine Television

    “Allah has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews”

    “Allah has predetermined that the Christian-Islam interactions will end with today’s Christian countries under Islam. Israel has no right to exist and will be destroyed”

    HAMAS receives it support from other Arab nations and those of the international community whom support this cause.

    For you, and people like Christopher Rose, who’s failure in seeing these facts from pre-existing ideas, lets put something into proper perspective and see how much of this vast Arab and Islamic world, there is, until the enemy is vanquished. And whether Israel is over reacting in it’s claim to have to remain in high-end defense mode and quick pre-emtion militay mode.

    Israel occupies less then 2% of 1% (0.002) of the Arab or (Islamic) Middle East. That leaves 99.98% of all the other lands in the hands of Arab and Persian Muslims.

    Yet the Arabs cry of Israel oppression.

    Some other facts of interest.

    When the original partitions for Israel and Palestine were fist drawn up through international efforts and the UN, the Arabs argued endless over this, yet seeing no other option then to yield to the international pressure at that time, they shifted their argument onto what lands they would allow the Jews to occupy, and they were successful in their argument. The Jews were partitioned on only the land less desirable to the Arabs, and the areas which the Arabs agreed to, left the new Jewish territories scattered and leaving them highly difficult to defend.

    Now some 50 year’s have passed, and Israel, with the sprit of determination and construction, has turned this once barren desert into an abundance of fruitfulness, they have constructed a vibrant economy, and immensely improved the lives of their people. They have done this while under constant and unrelenting attacks from Arab nations coalition attacks, endless terrorism, both from Arab states and un-official Arab non- state actors.

    In utter contest to these events, over this exact same period, Arab Palestinian leaders in combination with other Arab states and unofficial Arab non- state actors have not chosen this same spirit of construction. This and this alone is to blame for endless plight of the Palestinian people who still remains in shambles and despair which is utterly humiliating to say the least.

    Arabs have a deeply engrained sense of pride, honor and strong will. These character traits are so intense and so emotionally ingrained that it can over take any and all rational and common sense. These character traits can either be their greatest strength or their greatest weakness depending on when, where and how they use them. Add to this Islam+Hamas+Allah commands that they kill the Jews and, well I think your getting the idea.

    Here is the kicker. Humiliation is something the Arab can not and will not except under any circumstances and will not take any responsible for it when they have brought it up them selves. If they feel humiliation they must shed if off of them and onto somethng or someone else. This is where it becomes their greatest weakness.

    They have tried for over 50 years to destroy Israel and have been meet with humiliating defeat over and over again. They must vanquish them selves of this by casting it back onto the Jews.

    Your reasons for leaving this facts out now become the issue and thus the question at hand.

    Here is my question.

    Considering the facts stated above, that anyone in the world could verify, How do you propose to deal with this Arab (Islamic) mindset to satisfying Israelis concern, which you never addressed?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Franco,

    I said I wouldn’t waste my time on this thread, and I really shouldn’t – but one issue that may influence Liam’s writing is the fact that he does get published in pro-Arab journals or magazines. He has mentioned this at Desicritics.org, so I’m not revealing anything here. And he does have a full time job that keeps him at a considerable distance from a computer. So time that he spends answering us is precious time.

    Nevertheless, you have revealed one big problem with many of his articles in terms of factual content.

  • Zedd

    Franco

    I don’t think that you understand the desperation of an oppressed people.

    Black South Africans sought help from whomever would help. WHOMEVER. While the United States was playing politics and Americans were taking sides (seems ridiculous now) on the issue of the liberation of Blacks (like you are taking sides on this issue), we got help from ANYONE that would help us.

    Gaddafi became a hero to many South Africans. Castro is a great friend. Both were at Mandela’s inauguration. If you can not live out your destiny because of an oppressive external power, you will find whatever solutions you can. Within the struggle also, there were highly radical groups who wanted to wipe Whites out of the continent and some who would have liked to see them wiped off of the face of the earth. These were all of our liberators. We are free because of them.

    South African liberation fighters were also called terrorists by the White South Africans regime. Adam will tell you. There were also a lot of doomsday scenarios about what would happen when liberation occurred. Doomsday never came and the South African model is one of the best in human history.

    In 1945 these people stole their land and subjugated THEM. People will become radicalized. Expect it. If they don’t something is wrong. People will not sit back and philosophies about their own liberty. Especially when they have very little else to loose.

  • Franco

    #18 —Zedd

    You are passionate about your viewpoints in trying to draw correlation between two separate issues. I, on the other hand do not believe they apply, and I too am prepared to advocate.

    This discussion/debate, like all others, requires that ad hoc attracts, or belittling attitudes are eliminated and that intellectual honesty is predominant if it is to be engaged.

    These standards do test our own internal constitution when challenged to maintaining them. I am human and have failed at both, but from those failures I have come to see their weakness and thus their danger. If I give power to that danger it will prevent me from contributing to my own growth or anyone else’s.

    In my post #16, I brought some facts to light that the author had clearly left out in building his assertion, which thus challenged his position, which Ruvy in post #17 clearly confirmed and Ruvy and I don’t usually see eye to eye on many things. My post also did not contain any ad hoc’s attacks or unfriendly or belittling attitudes directed at the author, thus it did not create a hostile or negative environment for him to respond back to. This builds trust which allows the truth on both sides of the discussion/debate to come to surface, and expanded on and thus knowledge and understanding is straightened, that is of course only true if that is what one is really looking for.

    In your post #18 you did not an hoc attack, or display a belittling attitude, which was impressive and is the reason why I am responding back to you at this time.

    However, in recognizing that there is not a history of sharing these discusses/debate higher standards, and seeing that you are seeking to once again reengage with me, I first propose the following for your exceptance.

    Proposition

    Out of the certainty that we all need each other to sharpen up our own minds. Out of respect for these higher standards which starts with mutual respect, which builds turst, which builds to promote rationality, which transformes into learning, which benefits us all.

    If you are willing to persevere these higher standards, then I choose to further discuss/debate this issue with you.

    How say you…..

  • SHARK

    QUESTION: How long we can continue to argue about terminology — while the majority of Israelis and Palestinians continue to act like violent, tribal assholes?

    ANSWER: oh… maybe ANOTHER few thousand years.

    =====

    Here’s the rub:

    ~~~~ Each “side” is relatively ‘guilty’ of WHATEVER THEY ACCUSE THE OTHER SIDE OF.

    So… one has no “moral” imperative to use as a basis for considering EITHER sides appeals, etc.

    So..

    It.

    Never.

    Gonna.

    Change.

    =====

    My Biblically-Inspired Solution:

    Kill each other off.

    ~but — Spare the children.

    Send them to a new “Promised Land” — called Arizona.

    Tell them they’re all cousins.

    ~NEXT!

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    It’s interesting that Franco is the only who’s laid out a factual, historial perspective that explains why the Palestinians have no homeland today–yet none of the Jews=Apartheiders seemed to be able to knock down even one of his arguments.

    I didn’t know that Liam wrote for Arab publications, which explains his incredibly one-sided and simplistic analysis. He writes as if the problem in the MidEast started an hour and a half ago.

    It’s because of short-sighted people who refuse to study the history of regions such as the MidEast that nothing ever gets resolved.

    Is there a difference between the Shias & Sunnis in Iraq and Hamas and the PLO in “Palestine?” These people were wandering clans until the Europeans (mostly British and French) created their country, allowing minority clans to dominate.

    If you don’t study the history of the region, it’s not surprising you’d come out on the side of the poor, mistreated Palestinians. If you do study the history, you’ll find that they’ve been most mistreated by their Arab “brethren.”

    In Jameson Veritas

  • The village idiot

    This is history repeating itself. We just need the Third Reich for finalization of the Jewish problem. Shark, Im the Village Idiot. Please stop competing for my title. Ruvy, how in the hell can you stand this crap. Then we have this half-baked so called jesus#14 saying Israel is no better then South Africa. That is proof God created dip-sticks. Proud to be the VILLAGE IDIOT. Time to go and slop the hogs.

  • Arch Conservative

    Say what you will about about Israeli-Palestinain Relations but the one thing that always puzzled me was why the Palestinians loved Arafat so much.

    The man had billions of dollars and lived in the lap of luxury while the Palestianins who he was supposedly acting on behalf of, lived in poverty and he never gave them a dime.

    I guess claiming to hate Israel no matter how much you actually slight the Palestinian people gets you a gold star next to your name in thier book.

  • Liam Bailey

    I have written a massive commen t but I can’t post it. it says error 3648 banned word, I have no swear words and I have changed the wordsion ist, Jew and Arab where they appear and holocaust, everything else along those lines, what words are banned?

  • Arch Conservative

    Did you use the word c-u-n-n-i-l-i-n-g-u-s in your post? I think that has been banned

  • Zedd

    Franco

    I will tease you if you post rubbish. That also elevates ones capability.

    Franco we are here for the ideas. I don’t know if you’ve read my dialogue. I tend to like to get to the crux of the issue as opposed to postulating and wasting time proving how affective or intelligent I am. My intelligent or lack there of will come out. I think you waste a lot of time trying to sound intelligent instead of discussing the issue.

    When you do get to the issue, imo you tend to say something scripted. I do apologies because this is a shortcoming on my part, I have no patience for rhetoric. We all read and most of us are over 35 so we’ve heard it all. Its important to elevate the dialogue.

    You have in the past attacked me “personally” because I have dismissed your rhetorical rants. Don’t take things personally. Take the challenge and come back with something more stimulating.

    I will address your dull responses and label them as such, if I don’t, how will you know and then how will our discussion be elevated. I wont however engage in your “personal” attacks. Its silly because we don’t know each other and its simply boring and embarrassing.

    At the end of a long discussion especially one that has gone back and forward, I do get silly, simply to relieve the intensity of the discussion and to transition.

    So relax. Respond to whatever you feel like responding to. If the topic interests you jump in. If it bores you don’t. If you want to be silly, make your silly statement. We have a unique opportunity to exchange from the comfort of our beds, with the world. I wouldn’t limit myself, set too many rules for myself and get too emotional with the fictitious participants of these threads.

    However if I have hurt you. Please forgive me.

  • Zedd

    Mark

    I never said that Jews=apartheid. I don’t think that anyone said that. The topic is Israel = apartheid. No need for drama or trying to claim hatred for Jews. It doesn’t matter who is occupying Israel. They are wrong.

    I didn’t respond to Francos supposed correct account because I didn’t read it. It was too long.

    1945, land taken, people displaced, people mad, people fight back. Simple. No long essay necessary.

  • Zedd

    Michael

    you sed: First, apartheid was so awful because it was a small minority keeping a large majority (around 90% of the population) oppressed

    Are you saying because Jewish population has greater numbers, gives the them the right to oppress??

    you sed: Second, in the case of the Palestinians, they chose not to have independence: in 1947 the Arabs uniformly rejected the partition of Palestine, killing a chance for a Palestinian Arab state.

    Africans in South Africa rejected the separate independent states that were given to them by the South African government. They went for the giant kielbasa

    you sed: Third, the Palestinian, a minority in Israel (albiet a large minority) have been engaged in a terrorist campaign since 1949 aimed at destroying Israel. It wasn’t until after the ’67 war that they even started demanding a state of their own.

    South African freedom fighters were called terrorists including Nelson Mandela. Their campaign to get their land was called a terrorist campaign.

    Looks like there is a direct correlation between Israel and South Africa

  • The village idiot

    The direct correlation between South Africa and the Palestinians is they went to The Academy of Rock Throwers.

  • Zedd

    The village idiot

    Yes my relatives and childhood freinds died throwing rocks and were gunned down by the South African police.

    South Africa is FREE!

  • STM

    “The direct correlation between South Africa and the Palestinians is they went to The Academy of Rock Throwers.”

    There is no direct correlation between Palestine and South Africa and Palestinian terrorists are in fact far more barbarous and murderous than South Africa’s black population and its freedom fighters in the apartheid era.

    The big difference: once offered the chance, black South Africans chose to talk with their oppressors, to make peace, and to reconcile – to forgive, if not forget.

    Despite the atrocities (on both sides), what has happened in South Africa is pretty amazing stuff: what they’ve done in the past 15 years there couldn’t have been achieved by most other countries in 1500 years.

    Moonraven likes to think Chavez is the most influential man in the hemisphere.

    I say he’s fourth, at best and I’m being kind, behind Nelson Mandela, Rupert Murdoch, Shane Warne and Graham Henry – in that order.

  • The village idiot

    Obvisously they were lousy rock throwers and paid no attention at the academy. Yes South Africa is free with a useless economy.

  • Franco

    #26 — Zedd

    The proposition posted in #19 remains impassible! I should apologize for contemplating you could find its spirit somewhere in you.

    Good night, and good luck.

  • Clavos

    Franco,

    I’ll throw you your own question that you asked Dave and me yesterday or the day before:

    Why do you even respond to it?

  • Zedd

    STM sed:The big difference: once offered the chance, black South Africans chose to talk with their oppressors, to make peace, and to reconcile – to forgive, if not forget.

    Don’t forget that the South African government was also under a lot of pressure. There were events all over the world, protests at the consulates,student protests, music events, sanctions taking place. They HAD to be reconciliatory as well. They were pushed against the wall.

    Israel is still being supported by the US without condition. There is no real pressure. The UN is not holding them accountable for the articles that they have broken.

    The South African government had to offer something reasonable. They had offered many other proposals that were NOT acceptable to Blacks(Africans, Mixed race, and Indians). Blacks did not just accept whatever was offered to them STM. Like the Palestinians, there were points that were NOT negotiable. One man, one vote was one. It was a battle getting the SA gov to agree to that.

    There is a correlation.

    We tend to romanticize what has happened in the past. There were people who were just as vehement about not liberating South Africans just 17 years ago. Nelson Mandela was a terrorist (not a minor terrorist, a TERRORIST). He was thought to be EVIL. The ANC and PAC were thought to be communist terrorist organizations who wanted all whites killed (some members of the more radical wings did).

    There is a correlation.

    The difference is that there is nothing that is forcing these groups to seriously QUITE!

  • JIMMY DURANTE

    “Good Night, Ms. Calabash…wherever you are!”

  • Zedd

    I meant quit. hehe hehe

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    Be embarrassed please. You are so womanish.

  • Clavos

    What caused you to have all that self-loathing, zedd?

    Most of the women I hang around with are smart, hard-working, talented, witty and a lot of fun to be around.

    Thanks for the compliment!

  • Zedd

    h e l p (?????)

    He’s EVERYWHERE!!!

    Dave, I’m out for a while. Your tiny barnacle is making me feel icky for participating on this blog.

    I had fun! You really ARE cute!!

  • http://elvirablack.blogspot.com/ Elvira Black

    Zedd:

    You said:

    “I didn’t respond to Francos supposed correct account because I didn’t read it. It was too long.”

    Do you have any idea how foolish that makes you sound?

    Ditto to:

    “Be embarrassed please. You are so womanish.”

    WTF??? Racism bad; sexism good?

    Methinks you have a credibility problem, just for starters.

  • http://elvirablack.blogspot.com/ Elvira Black

    Furthermore, you said:

    “1945, land taken, people displaced, people mad, people fight back. Simple. No long essay necessary.”

    Yes, if you want to think of everything in “simple” terms rather than explore a situation that is much more complex than you admit. Much more convenient that way–you’re right, others are wrong, and don’t confuse me with the facts.

    As others have said, insulting fellow commenters is not a valid form of argument. And a deliberate attempt to remain in a state of denial and refuse to read relevant comments before responding is pretty fruitless–for yourself and others. When you find that this avenue gets you nowhere fast, you pout and throw up your hands and say you are abandoning the thread. Not very impressive; not very convincing.

  • Bliffle

    Everything Liam says seems to incite warfare not peace. Extermination, not negotiation.

    The only peace he can see is when one clan exterminates another, apparently. So he encourages his partisans and recruits allies for them.

  • Franco

    #34 — Clavos

    Why do you even respond to it?

    El hombre ve otros los hombres con la enfermedad de desesperación optimista intenta razonar con la mujer con la boca grande y cabeza de ningún entendimiento. El mismo hombre se pone enfermo con la misma fiebre de otros hombres e intenta razonar con otra mujer, pero el mismo abismo él se desploma.Thanks for throwing down the rope

    Can you imagine these kinds of mindsets being issued new AK103’s in the hundreds of thousands throughout the jungles, villages and towns of LatAm. Life’s never gonna be the same again.

    Well…in trying to get back to the thread. What ever happened to Liam (the author) after he posted #34 where he said…

    I have written a massive comment but I can’t post it, it says error 3648 banned word,

  • Liam Bailey

    Mark

    I have studied the history of the conflict at great length since the beginning. The UN partitioned the land, Israel declared its own state, the Arabs attacked, and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing, just three years after what the Nasis did to them.

    If Franco is right and the Arabs did barter down the land Israel was given to a wasteland in scattered parts, then this is what has driven the sionist agenda to steal the land which it covets for the final Jewish state.

    Read my next article, an interview with Ilan Pape, who confirms what I am saying.

    Since the Suez war the U.S has ensured that none of the arab countries or all of them put together are a match for the IDF, giving them nuclear arms sealed the deal. Israel remains in a constant state of existential fear for the simple reason it ensures continued U.S support and ensures the U.S will continue to guarantee their military hegemony in the region.

  • Liam Bailey

    I have just posted my comment in full on this article over at Desicritics.

    It hasn’t banned my word, I changed nearly the whole comment to try and get it posted on here and it still wouldn’t work, this was the next alternative.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing, just three years after what the Nasis did to them.

    Wow, Liam. This is a whole part of history I missed in grad school – but I did specialized in an earlier period. Still I would have thought someone might have mentioned it either then or when I lived in Jordan. I toured historic sites in Israel, but no one showed me the death camps and mass graves from the ethnic cleansing. Howcome?

    Dave

  • Liam Bailey

    Dave:

    Read this, then deny that Israel committed ethnic cleansing in the late 40’s.

    As for the death camps and mass graves, a. they would hardly be made historical sites by the perpetrating government, and b. there is more than one way to skin a cat. There were no death camps or mass graves, Israeli forces used a number of methods to force Arabs off their land, and only killed the ones that stayed, where they stayed as civilian casualties of war. Similarly to their current genocide by attrition in Gaza.

    If you read the link I provided at the top of this comment you will be left in no doubt what Zionism is capable of to gain the land it covets.

  • Franco

    Dave,

    I went over to Desicritics to find Liam as he was having trouble posting in the BC thread and linked us over there. I found that he was answering a post back to me over there.

    Now that I see he has been successfully in posting here again on BC I don’t know if he has had more trouble with it.

    I left him a message on Desiritics to choose which site he wanted to carry on this discussion/debate due to the problems. I am waiting his answer before I post here or there to keep the dissuction on one thread. What would you suggest?

    Also I do not want to leave him un-answered on his last post that went to you, it’s not the end, its only the beginning.

  • STM

    Zedd said: “Nelson Mandela was a terrorist”

    Not in my eyes, he wasn’t. One-man one-vote wasn’t disputed by white south africans once discussions began on how to end apartheid.

    It’s simply not true: De Klerk went the whole hog on it, although he may not have liked it at the time.

    The big problem for the japies was that they – deservedly – feared there was going to be some serious retribution.

    Thanks to the superhuman qualities of forgiveness exercised by Mandela, that wasn’t the case. And the place is, and will remain, a leading light when people are looking for examples of what can be achieved when people actually decide to REALLY talk and sort out their differences.

    Comparisons with Palestine are odious. Israel has offered the olive branch a million times. There is little interest in the Arab world on anyone picking it up.

    That’s the big difference.

  • Liam Bailey

    Okay Franco, it seems to me you would prefer to debate on this site, and as it is where you started commenting I am happy to attempt to do so. If you reply to my post on Desicritics here we will go from there.

    BTW: I never employ personal attacks, unless the debate takes me there.

  • Franco

    #51 — Liam Bailey

    “If you reply to my post on Desicritics here we will go from there.”

    Ok Lima, posting on BC is fine but we should have everything on one site and since your post over on DC directed at me is not here, I will attempt to post it here on BC. I do not know what the problem was to start with so I hope it posts when I hit “publish”.

    ————————————————————-
    DC – #5 Liam Bailey January 17, 2007 01:28PM

    I have studied the history of the conflict at great length since the beginning. The UN partitioned the land, Israel declared its own state, the Arabs attacked, and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing, just three years after what the Nazis did to them.

    If Franco is right and the Arabs did barter down the land Israel was given to a wasteland in scattered parts, then this is what has driven the Zionist agenda to steal the land which it covets for the final Jewish state.

    Read my next article, an interview with Ilan Pape, who confirms what I am saying.

    Since the Suez war the U.S has ensured that none of the Arab countries or all of them put together are a match for the IDF, giving them nuclear arms sealed the deal. Israel remains in a constant state of existential fear for the simple reason it ensures continued U.S support and ensures the U.S will continue to guarantee their military hegemony in the region.

    Refer to my article: Supporting Peace is not abandoning Israel, where I lay out how the Hamas Covenance as puts it is nothing more than powerful talk from a disempowered people. Hamas members have grown up under Israel’s occupation, the organization, the anger and the violence towards Israel is a direct result of Israel’s actions. Hamas is a resistance movement, what do you think the Nazi’s would call the French resistance now… Terrorists, they fought with similar insurgent tactics, minus the suicide bombings, i.e. the only means they have available.

    If you can honestly say that Israel really fears for its existence because of Hamas then you are guilty of the same things you accuse me of. With all the will, determination, anger, resentment etc in the world, Hamas will never have the means to defeat the IDF and Israel knows it. As for Iran, read my article Is Iran Unstoppable Part III on Blogcritics, for a clear explanation of why Iran will never attack Israel.

    Israel talks about fearing for its existence, allowing them to constantly remind us of the holocaust, covering up for their actions of oppression, ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and genocide by attrition in Gaza. They have plenty of time to accomplish the Zionist goal and get all the land they so covet, the wall is practically achieving it in one go, an International Court has ruled the wall illegal, human rights groups around the world, even conservative Israeli human rights groups are against its construction but does the world act. NO!

    Anyone saying anything against Israel is anti-Semitic and under this cover of reduced criticism and reflecting all criticism as religious discrimination, despite their utter religious discrimination, they get on with their business. Israeli Jews, who remember the holocaust so well, will remember how the world stayed silent. The same is happening now on behalf of the Palestinians, the world is turning a blind eye and so are Israelis. The boycott is one way for the world to tell Israelis to topple their Zionist governance. In the mid-1940s Zionism was a great help to Judaism, but now it is giving Jews a bad name.

    Franco I am not biased and I have no predisposed ideas or agenda. I entered journalism as Bush and the ware on terror’s biggest fan. Read Islamic Jihad Terrorism: Americas Frankenstein, one of my first articles, the research for which changed my viewpoint. My opinions are based on facts and you will note the number of links to support my opinions in each article.

    For those who refuse the link between Israel and apartheid South Africa, South African Professor of Law and current special rapporteur for the UN on the OPT, John Duggard, has written articles on Israel’s apartheid, argue with him.

    End of post from DC
    ————————–

    #51 — Liam Bailey

    BTW: I never employ personal attacks, unless the debate takes me there.

    I would lake to add that I find you articulate, you seem to address maters of fact, you do it in a professional way, and I believe you are sincere in what you advocate. I too will reciprocate in like form.

    I will post a reply to what you have said when I get back from a meeting tonight.

  • Zedd

    STM

    You sed:One-man one-vote wasn’t disputed by white south Africans once discussions began on how to end apartheid.

    It’s simply not true: De Klerk went the whole hog on it, although he may not have liked it at the time.

    It seems really weird now that we are so far away from it all. De Klerk was not on board by any means. There was a real problem with getting the South African government to go along with one man one vote. It was terrible. Seems silly now (seemed silly then to us) but there were all sorts of “good sounding arguments” against it, not unlike the ones that are offered regarding the Palestinian issue. They seemed plausible. But in these matters its actually best when you simplify things. A wrong was committed, define what it is, and fix it. The details make it impossible to resolve anything.

    In SA, among the many arguments, the theory was that we Blacks didn’t even inhabit the land when the Whites arrived (ridiculous now, I know) but that was an accepted argument by most people. The talk radio circuit here in the US was filled with such garbage. This foolishness was taught in SA schools.

    On Mandela. :o) I think you have a distorted view of him. He is indeed a remarkable man and should be revered. But he is not a gentle and forgiving sort by any means. I always chuckle when you advise me to take a page from his book whenever I voice opinions that you don’t understand or agree with. Nelson Mandela would not be nearly as gentle as I am by ANY means in addressing some of the things that you and a lot of contributors have said. He has a sharp and quick wit that would place you faced down before you would realize it. He is not the gentle and forgiving person that he is obviously mythologized as. He is practical and shrewd however…. totally different thing. You would have been flattened in a couple of strikes with the comments that you have made. THAT is Nelson Mandela. Again, that’s one of those things that we hear and just smile and shake our heads at. What is interesting Stan is that you are lecturing me about my people and my history. I am of his culture, I speak Mandela’s language and I understand and know things that you have no ability to know. I understand innuendo and slight gestures that you cant pick up. Yet YOU lecture me. I understand the struggle in SA as it involved my family members the kids that I grew up with. I was born in Soweto. I knew and had walked and played in the streets where the people who you saw on TV demonstrating were walking. Yet you INFORM me. THAT is what I am talking about.

    I promise not to lecture you on Australia.

  • STM

    OK Zedd, I should have said “once discussions began in earnest”.

    As much as I hated the afrikaner nationalists, de Klerk, although he WAS being pressured by the Brits and everyone else, at least decided it would be a good idea to free political prisoners and to ruin his own political career in the process.

    I think that was a huge step for the Japies – they don’t give in to that stuff easily (witness the rugby Test against Australia in the early 90s when they were told not to sing the old afrikaner anthem, The Call, at Loftus Versfeld in Pretoria, but persisted in doing so anyway. My, how things have changed there. Amazing, really.)

    Mandela has helped South Africa to pull off the impossible. I knew it was going to be OK at the end of the 1995 rugby world cup when Boks captain Francois Pienaar (an afrikaner) and Nelson Mandela held the William Webb Ellis trophy aloft together at Ellis Park after the Springboks beat the All Blacks for the world title.

    Mandela had been wearing Pienaar’s No 6 jumper and when they held the cup aloft, everyone in the stadium roared – a big percentage of them whites – and chanted Mandela’s name. Mandela and Pienaar spontaneously hugged and embraced each other and stood with their arms around each other’s shoulders.

    These days, there are funding programs in place in places like the Eastern Cape for more black players coming through the ranks of the Super 14 (the three-way competition played by teams from South Africa, Australia and New Zealand).

    Once upon a time, Super 14 rugby teams from Australia and New Zealand had more players “of colour” than did those from South Africa, as blacks had never really been allowed to embrace the game. That is very much NOT the case today.

    These days, two of the real star players from The Bulls, who play out of Pretoria, which is real Afrikaner territory, are black. One of them, Bryan Habana, is a leading tryscorer in the competition and might even be regarded today as one of the world’s top players. He is very popular with the (now mixed) crowd at Loftus.

    You might say, well, he’s only talking about rugby, but given the passion with which white South Africans have embraced the game, and their determination to deny non-whites the opportunity to play the game during the apartheid era, that is a substantial achievment and may truly be a barometer for the changes in the country overall.

    Things are certainly so different there – let’s hope it continues. And Zedd, like I keep saying, it’s testament to one man’s capacity for real forgiveness.

  • STM

    Not lecturing, quoting verbatim: “We especially should learn to forgive each other because when you intend to forgive, you heal part of the pain, but when you forgive you heal completely. As Africans, we have suffered in terms of slavery and colonialism for a very long time. Forgiveness has remained our best cultural heritage.”

    (Mandela’s Speech on February 11, 1990).

  • defender

    I absolutely agree with the contents of comment number six by mr. christopher rose. ruvy, as i said before these strategies are only simple theorizes and CANNOT be taken into action. foe example how in teh world can the nuke all israel enemies. You said from the first minute the jewish state announced its independentness it was attacked by a lot of enemies and you say they should detroyed to dust as you said ” those who bless israel will be blessed those who curse her will be destroyed”. i’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense to me and it is not a wise idea that can be discussed and voted about. the main problem in israelies administrations which is causing a lot of hatred among the arab nations should be rooted out or they should seek and find a solution to reduce the empty cries of the bullying powers. ruvy if you want to recieve the respect you want for your religion and your bliefs you need to respect peoples blieves also as well, they care about their religion as much as you do and they didn’t like the the contents of your comment # 15. from the way you react and curse whoever who disagrees with you i can tell what kind of personality you have but thats not what we’re discussing. i am simply saying you get what you give so watch out what you give, another comment like number 15 and ….

    ruvy, you need to know that liam’s opinion was not the lies of anti-israelies and jew-hating medias. i strongly disagree with you because you are simply calling liam a liar because he disagrees with you and does not have your point of view at the conflicts. its bad for your reputation, you are just as predujice about your country and homeland as we all are, if you can’t stand anything against you i advise you NOT to participate in blogcritics anymore. the reason that israeli citizens are banned from areas a & b is not that “they will be dead in a minute”, they can’t because arabs don’t feel safe around them of what they have seen from them. you said that your eyes are your authorities, mines are too, so is everybody’s elses.

  • Ruvy in Jeruslam

    “‘We especially should learn to forgive each other because when you intend to forgive, you heal part of the pain, but when you forgive you heal completely. As Africans, we have suffered in terms of slavery and colonialism for a very long time. Forgiveness has remained our best cultural heritage.’

    (Mandela’s Speech on February 11, 1990).”

    See, folks, when you get to talking about the real thing – South African apartheid – the real differences between Israel and South Africa emerge.

    In its declaration of independence on 15 May 1948, the new State extended its hand in friendship to its Arab neighbors. The answer was an invasion from every side. Arafat, erected by the Israeli government and sold to the Israeli as a dictator who was supposed to control the Arab terrorists ran to South Africa where he reassured Arabs that he had no intention of making peace.

    Had the Arabs wanted peace they would have been peaceful. But from the 1920’s on, urged on by stooges of the Moslem Brotherhood like Amin Husseini, they have sought war.

    Later, the Husseinis, showing that they do have real intelligence, managed to cook up a “Palestinian” nationality and reams of bullshit to support it at Orient House, and this bullshit has been duly bought by the western media and even the Israeli “leftists”, who have led this nation on the path to suicide since the election of Rabin.

  • defender

    I’m sorry guys, my keyboard was broken so i’m using the other computer, this is the edited one and there is no misspellings on this one.

    I absolutely agree with the contents of comment number six by mr. christopher rose. ruvy, as i said before these strategies are only simple theorizes and CANNOT be taken into action. for example how in the world can you nuke all israel enemies as you said is needed to do? You said from the first minute the jewish state announced its independentness it was attacked by lots of enemies and you say they should detroyed to dust as you said ” those who bless israel will be blessed those who curse her will be destroyed”. i’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense to me and it is not a wise idea that can be discussed and voted about. the main problem in israelies administrations which is causing a lot of hatred among the arab nations should be rooted out or they should seek and find a solution to reduce the empty cries of the bullying powers. ruvy if you want to recieve the respect you want for your religion and your bliefs you need to respect peoples blieves also as well, they care about their religion as much as you do and they didn’t like the the contents of your comment # 15. from the way you react and curse whoever who disagrees with you i can tell what kind of personality you have but thats not what we’re discussing. i am simply saying you get what you give so watch out what you give, another comment like number 15 and ….

    ruvy, you need to know that liam’s opinion was not the lies of anti-israelies and jew-hating medias. i strongly disagree with you because you are simply calling liam a liar because he disagrees with you and does not have your point of view at the conflicts. its bad for your reputation, you are just as predujice about your country and homeland as we all are, if you can’t stand anything against it i advise you NOT to participate in blogcritics anymore. the reason that israeli citizens are banned from areas a & b is not that “they will be dead in a minute”, they can’t because arabs don’t feel safe around them of what they have seen from them recently. you said that your eyes are your authorities, mines are too, so is everybody’s elses. we can perfectly see what is going on and we are not in the need of your wrong and untrue informations to distract and confuse us from the original main conflict. you make everything much more complicated with bringing up things that doesn’t have to do anything with the subject.( mr rose, please delete my comment number 56, this is the original and new edition of my comment.) thank you.

  • Zedd

    STM

    South Africa is a changed nation. It has to be its majority Black (African, mixed and Indian).
    It is The Rainbow Nation.

    Mandela has always been a charismatic figure. He is a hero and a wise man. His speech was uttered to unite a nation. He was speaking to the young people who had been running through the streets burning “traitors” with tires. He and his colleges knew that no country would arise out of a mess like that. He and his colleges had meticulously planned what it would take to build a country after observing the many courses of nation building over time, while in prison. They utilized all manner to debate (into the wee hours of the night) and to dialogue, sometimes using the Socratic method. Mandela was not always among the most tempered of men in the circle. There were others who I wont bore you with who were great men, very great judicious men, who will not be known internationally but who we revere greatly.

    But everything in life is always complicated. In retrospect, the lines are always clearly defined and sides are always pristinely divided. As we all know, life is quite a bit more beautiful an glorious.

    Reading the comments of the Israeli supporters I hear the voices of those who spoke out against our liberation. I hear the cavalier statements of people who have no stake, pontificating while we suffered greatly. I hear Palestinians demonized, their humanity completely overlooked simply because it is unlikely that they could be good or right, because of our world order. When the Palestinians fight, no matter how vehement no one ever thinks that they would do the same thing. No one understands how difficult it is to quail the anger of a people who are TIRED and hurt who have nothing to loose.

    South Africa was fortunate. There were highly radical factions that were difficult to control. One had to walk a fine line between being looked upon as a sell out and being discounted and looked upon as a radical by others. The ANC not Nelson Mandela decided to be inclusive at its conception prior to Mandela’s entry because of the brilliant minds that formed it. That decision, saved South Africa.

    When I observe the Palestinian issue, I cant help but identify with the fine line that must be walked by those leaders.

  • Zedd

    The best thing in my opinion is for Hamas to be just where they are. They will learn just how challenging it is to run a government and they will mature. They will be challenged with keeping a population happy and dealing with the international community. If they succeed everyone wins. If they fail, the people move on…

    Externally, we will also cease after time to see them as the devils incarnate. We will mature as well. If the earth doesn’t crumble and the Palestinian authority remains intact and even betters, we will grow up as well. That is what happens.

    Right now “we” are hoping for the worst so that we are right about our views. We really don’t care about the Palestinian people. Many wanted to be right about our people. They didn’t care about our struggle, we were just a topic to be debated.

    STM my grand parents never saw THAT DAY as it would often be referred to. My great uncle would climb a mountain every morning poetically singing “give us our land”, like a mad man. When they would talk about THAT DAY a glint in their eyes would come followed by a chuckle and an evocation of legions of ancestors by name saying they will dance on THAT DAY….. These men were speaking treason. They were agitators

    In the West, we take liberty for granted. We look for romantic tales as if we are observing a movie to validate who is deserving liberty. The Palestinians are not liberated. They are people like us, who are waiting for THAT DAY. Because they are real people, they are not choreographing a play for our benefit, their story will be messy and disorganized and disheveled. It always is. Reality is always untidy.

    How would you react to a curfew, today. No matter what reason anyone had for imposing it, it would be a curfew on you, your family and everyone that you know.. good people. How would you react to knowing that your child will NEVER have real opportunity no matter how talented he was. The complicated reasons for why HE deserves NO CHANCE would never do. You would pick up a rock or whatever you had as well. You would be labeled a terrorist.

    That is the simple of it. The rest is garbage.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Okay folks, let’s all talk about the evil Israeli Nazis and how they perpetrate genocide on the poor Arabs. Presented for you delectation and enjoyment is exhibit one – evil Israeli Nazi JEW shoots poor persecuted innocent Arab thief!

    Liam, you’ve bought the Arab bullshit, hookah, line and sinkhole, all because they pay you and publish your articles. Man, you sell out easy. Over at Desicritics, they like you because they don’t like Israel. But you might want to explain to me, who lives here, and to Dave Nalle, who was born in Lebanon and who lived in Jordan for two years how, if we Jews are oppressing the “poor Palestinians” so terribly, they keep having kids (to send on suicide missions) and can afford to buy and develop Qassam missiles to shoot at S’derot and Ashkelon.

    When was the last time you got your butt down over here to see for yourself what awful and vicious people we are, Liam? How much Arabic do you know? How much Hebrew?

    You posted an article on getting rid of Tony Blair not too long ago. I don’t know if you noticed, but I did not say a word about the article. I’ve never graced England’s shores and have no clue about what English or British politics are all about.

    Yes, I do understand a lot about English history, but not enough to intelligently comment on English politics, except to perhaps learn from you, or from Natalie Bennett, Chris Rose or others on the site who have lived in the United Kingdom.

    In other words, I comment on what I do know something about and keep my mouth shut elsewhere.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “What is interesting Stan is that you are lecturing me about my people and my history. I am of his culture, I speak Mandela’s language and I understand and know things that you have no ability to know. I understand innuendo and slight gestures that you can’t pick up. Yet YOU lecture me. I understand the struggle in SA as it involved my family members the kids that I grew up with. I was born in Soweto. I knew and had walked and played in the streets where the people who you saw on TV demonstrating were walking. Yet you INFORM me. THAT is what I am talking about.”

    So Zedd, given that you do not like to be lectured on what you know with you own eyes and heart, who the hell are you to lecture others – like me? Who the hell are you to say who is or who is not a Jew? Or a convert to Judaism? Who are you to talk about people you neither know nor understand, or about struggles you neither know nor understand?

    How much Hebrew or Arabic do you understand that you can honestly understand what is and isn’t said here by “politicians” and the like? How well can you pick up the subtle innuendo of either Jews or Arabs?

    Translate please:

    Al Yahúd klabná

    ItbaH al Yahúd

    Mávet l’Aravím

    Zeh kol biglalkhá Havér

    You walked in YOUR shoes and understand the corns on your feet. But you have no clue about the corns on Arabs’ feet from the shoes they have to walk in, and you certainly have no clue about the shoes that Jews have walked in or the corns on our feet from those shoes.

    Shut thy gob and stow the gab, lady.

    Oh, and by the way, Shabbat Shalom to you – Sabbath peace.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    You don’t know what I am referring to. Also I have not lectured you about Judism.

    I am a Christian and use figures of MY religion which is know well.

    BTW your playful comments to “Jesus” were chilling. Even though you are not a believer, please be respectful. Thats how we get along around the world.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    I know damned well what you were referring to. I read the exchange between you and Stan Denham rather carefully, and caught that part where he wrote about his impressions of Nelson Mandela, and your corrections of him.

    Because you lived in South Africa, and dealt personally with cops saying, “waar jou pass?” etc., I’ll not question your characterizations of the political leadership there. You know far better than I ever possibly could with my knowledge out of books or newspaper articles.

    But to get to your own comments:

    Zedd writes: “Ruvy

    You forgot the many Jews who are not genetically linked to Abraham. You know the Europeans who converted to Judism.”

    This, coming after a detailed listing of definitions so that anyone could understand my point of view? Your sources for this, madam? Your authority?

    Zedd writes: “Ruvy

    I hope that soon you will realize that for every complaint you have or terror analysis you can come up with, there is one also by the Palestinians. KNOW THIS!!! You are not victims or righteous. You are just co-knuckleheads thats all. There is nothing holy or divine going on. You are just hard heads and you are driving the rest of the WORLD nuts.

    At some point, you have to stop!!! Just STOP!!

    Hush with your silly counter “POINTS”

    Let it go…….

    Its got to end and THAT doesn’t mean with you getting your way.”

    You do not even know what a “Palestinian” is! And you propose to lecture me, who deals with Jews and Arabs every day, on life here? You know people who have died from Arab terror, like I do? You know the look of fear in a family’s eyes when they have fled from their home under rocket attack, like I do? You know what it is to see the resentment in an Arab’s eyes as he watches you pass his shop – which sells hats and shirts that say IDF and Israel Police on them? You know what it is to see an Arab searching the garbage in Jerusalem, like I do? You know what it is to try to help an Arab with a very heavy accent deal with the police, like I do?

    NO!!

    YOUR KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM THE NEWSPAPER OR THE INTERNET – JUST LIKE STAN DENHAM!!

    So stow the gab.

    As for “Jesus”, well considering that what I wrote shut the fool up, or got him to come out from his hole and post under his real name, I did good.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem
  • Zedd

    At some point with every dispute you do just have to STOP. I don’t know if you are married but you learn this in marriage. You can go on all day Ruvy with points and counter points, at some point you just have to STOP. This is a very real reality.

    The Lord is not going to come down and anoint a winner of this conflict. YOU and other individuals will just have to let it go…. LET IT GO.

    Just as I am not going to go back and forth with you on tiny points and whether or not you know where my comments to STM come from (that is silly and irrelevant).

    What I know is that YOU don’t live with curfews. No one tears down your house because someone else broke the law. Your economy is allowed to progress,you can go to school, you can go to the market to shop for food, you have cafes and night clubs.

    That after all is the bottom line. The Palestinians are not FREE.

    The next time you come up with a reason to justify this situation, just STOP. That is how it ends. ALWAYS. There is no magic process. You cant change anyone else just YOU.

    Simple Ruvy.

    Also why are you posting Hebrew (I assume) to me. Don’t you think that’s a little odd? Should I post Afrikaans to you?? Its just weird Ruvy. BTW I thought you were going to lay low on this discussion. You couldn’t resist could you? I understand.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    Jews in this country are not free either. So take your own advice.

    AND JUST STOP.

    My wife of twenty years gave me permission to say that.

  • Zedd

    Letter from Nelson Mandela to Thomas Friedman 3/3/2001

    Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column “Bush’s First Memo” in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

    You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees.

    The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established “normally” and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a “state” but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

    In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labour Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic domination with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.

    Israel was not thinking of a “state” but of “separation”. The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.

    Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of “I hate Arabs” and “I wish Arabs would be dead”. If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognised as private property because it can be confiscated.

    As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.

    The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a “Jewish” state.

    Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

    The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.

    Thomas, I’m not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I’m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you. When you figure out what you’re about, give me a call.

    STM there is Nelson Mandela. If anyone knows the correlation it is he. Now will you believe me.

    How about taking a page from his book Stan.

  • Zedd

    Two former solders, one for the Israeli army and another a Palestinian resistance fighter who are members of Combatants for Peace, an organization of former Israeli soldiers and Palestinian resistance fighters working for a two-state solution said that the situation these men describe is worse than apartheid. “Three and a half million people live without any rights,” said the Israeli, whose own sister was killed by a suicide bomber. “You want to stop these people [suicide bombers], you should give them a reason to live.”

    “The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. There are 530 checkpoints in the West Bank. Only 30 are on the Green Line between the West Bank and Israel. Yes; some of those have stopped suicide bombers. The purpose of the other 500 has nothing to do with security. The strategy there is to destroy Palestinian society, to prevent any joint organized struggle [against the occupation],” said the Israeli

    The Israeli P.M. recently promised the Palestinian President that the checkpoints would be relaxed. They have not been. “The army receives these instructions and… does not take the instructions,” the Israeli said, citing Israel’s leading newspaper. Thus the army acts on its own as a repressive force (Israeli generals have long defied civilian supervision).

    The Palestinian, his brother, and his father have spent 25 years in Israeli jails, much of that time without due process, for such offenses as graffiti and other statements opposing the occupation. The man’s family has lost many acres of its land to Jewish settlers, in a village outside Bethlehem.

    Village Temple in New York 01/11/2007

    There are many Mandelas in the Palestinian territory

  • Zedd

    Gaza has maintained a population growth rate of 4.7 percent annually, one of the highest in the world, so more than half its people are less than fifteen years old. They are being strangled since the Israeli “withdrawal,” surrounded by a separation barrier that is penetrated only by Israeli-controlled checkpoints, with just a single opening (for personnel only) into Egypt’s Sinai as their access to the outside world. There have been no moves by Israel to permit transportation by sea or by air. Fishermen are not permitted to leave the harbor, workers are prevented from going to outside jobs, the import or export of food and other goods is severely restricted and often cut off completely, and the police, teachers, nurses, and social workers are deprived of salaries. Per capita income has decreased 40 percent during the last three years, and the poverty rate has reached 70 percent. The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food has stated that acute malnutrition in Gaza is already on the same scale as that seen in the poorer countries of the Southern Sahara, with more than half of Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.”

    Jimmy Carter

  • Zedd

    When I said JUST STOP I am not talking about you with regards to your comments to me. I mean JUST STOP the tit for tat about the conflict.

    You telling me to JUST STOP is out of context and will not make you more free. Opressing another certainly does not render one free. You are correct. So join the movement to end this madness.

  • Zedd

    Please omit this statement “The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians.” from #70

    It was a bad paste job.

  • Zedd

    STM et al

    Theres more:

    South Africa’s own Bishop Desmond Tutu and others have referred to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian Christians and Muslims as “Israeli apartheid.”

    In a 2002 speech in the United States, Tutu said he saw “the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.” Back in 1999, former South African statesman Nelson Mandela told the Palestinian Assembly: “The histories of our two peoples correspond in such painful and poignant ways that I intensely feel myself at home amongst my compatriots.”

    South African author Breyten Breytenbach, who spent nine years in prison for resisting apartheid, wrote in 2002, “I recently visited the occupied territories for the first time. And yes, I’m afraid they can reasonably be described as resembling Bantustans, reminiscent of the ghettoes and controlled camps of misery one knew in South Africa.”

    They said nothing in Germany also…. There is always a rationale for evil. Its only in retrospect that we fully recognize it for what it is.

    Evil is happening.

  • Zedd

    Franco

    The one problem that i have with your very long post which I have finally read is that you speak of Palestinians as if they have one voice and one mind.

    In my very short life, I have attended a variety of venue. I have attended events where the radical nature of speeches would send chills up your back. Here in the USA. One walks out and shakes her head chuckles at the insanity of it all and move on. While I am Black I certainly don’t think that every Black person voices my views. In EVERY movement, you WILL have radicals. They are exciting and they are particularly good for bringing in young people but they don’t represent the people.

    Every human being has a compass. While brainwashing does set in sometimes but for the most part we just don’t go following every tom dick and harry with a good sounding speech.

    What I see as lacking in your contributions is an ability to see Palestinians as just human beings.

    If you follow every struggle, you will find many crazy speeches. That doesn’t mean that those actions will be carried out or that those ideas represent the ideas of the general public.

    To support the premise of this article, in South Africa, there were radicals to rival all radicals. I am certain that many still remain. They exist in every movement. The SA gov used the utterings of these radicals, as you do now, to justify the continued subjugation of our people. You are employing the tactics of the South African government, just to be right, while real people suffer.

  • Franco

    DC Post #5 —Liam Bailey via BC Post 34 Franco

    “Franco I am not biased and I have no predisposed ideas or agenda. I entered journalism as Bush and the ware on terror’s biggest fan. Read Islamic Jihad Terrorism: Americas Frankenstein, one of my first articles, the research for which changed my viewpoint. My opinions are based on facts and you will note the number of links to support my opinions in each article.”

    Liam,

    Whether you are biased or not, is not for me to say. Although your position in another article you posted on DC voicing your strong opposition against any international efforts at intervening into Sudan/Darfur at stopping the Arab-Islamic ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims dose not do much to support claims of not being biased. So whether you are or not will be substantiated from within the discussion/debate. As for you claiming not to having an agenda, I call rallying an international boycott against Israel an agenda.

    I do find you convinced in your own opinions based on what you call “research for which changed your viewpoint”. Whether this new viewpoint is new in the sense that it changed your original stance by 180 degrees, or whether this new viewpoint only relates to enhancing your original position to a future extreme, this has not been made clear.

    In either event, I am suggesting that your “research” has not gone deep or far enough and therefor limits the scope of its perspective allowing for conclusions for agendas that are not only ineffective but that are further dangerous for both Arab and Jew in advancing it.

    Case in point.

    #45 —Liam Bailey

    You assert

    “I have studied the history of the conflict at great length since the beginning. The UN partitioned the land, Israel declared its own state, the Arabs attacked, and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing, just three years after what the Nazis did to them.”

    This capsulated window in time in which you have erected is limited to 1947-1948 neatly packed and dose not explain anything. This is taking key events in this conflict out of context and thus can create a faults reality upon which to draw faults conclusions. What is missing from your erection are key events that occurred with in your time window, and the events that occurred between 1917 to 1948 and then from 1948 to 1967.

    I am not going to try and cover all of this now, I will address your constricted time window of 1947-1948 and add context to these events that you have not. As we move forward we can cover from 1917 to 1967 and on up thru today which will show an established and repeated pattern of Arab aggression against the Jews finding any sanctuary of their own throughout that period.

    Starting with your time windaow 1947-1948

    UN partitioned the land.

    On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations voted with a 2/3 majority to partition western Palestine into a separate Jewish and Arab states. Over 75% of the land allocated to the Jews, that the Arabs insisted on, were desert waist lands. Desperate to find a haven for the remnants of Jews after their wholesale destruction and slaughter in Europe, the Jews accepted the UN partition. The Arabs, on the other hand were determined on preventing any Jewish entity in Palestine even into the new Jewish partitioned state. This argument was contested by the UN general assemble and led to all of the Arab members states of the UN – Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen- rejecting the UN partition even though by the end of the debates it was supported by a 2/3 UN majority.

    Upon the UN partition plans adoption, the Arab delegates declared the partition invalid: The New York Times, Nov. 30, 1947. Within two days, the Arab governments declared their opposition to partition: The New York Times, Dec. 1, 2, 1947.

    The Arabs of Palestine had their best ever settlement offer for peace, a state from in which the Palestine Arabs could govern themselves, and it included all the better sections of land and they pissed it away. Why?

    Arab rejection was based on the fact that, the population of the Jews under the UN partition for the Jewish state at that time was [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the intended land, and objected to the Jews be allowed to establish themselves at the ruling body within there own partitioned state. WHAT! Yes, you read that right.

    An additional fact of interest is that today, it is these very same Arab states which attached Israel that prevent the UN to this day, from establishing a definition for the word “terrorism”. That right, the UN dose not have one. I wonder why?

    This cleanly shows the Arabs relentless attempts to frustrating and thwarting any and all efforts of the Jews for a self governing state, while at the same time the Arabs what to govern their Palestinian state and the Jewish state as well. What kind of a partitioned state system is that? Here, you get yours and I get mine and I rule over mine, but I get to rule over yours too. Is that the same as two for me one for you? No it’s far worse.

    Now we get to your next assertion.

    “Israel declared its own state”

    The Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel was publicly read in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, before the expiration of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight.

    Following the legal Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel, the Arab states in a collation effort attracted the Sate of Israel to render its complete distortion for the reasons stated above.

    Now we get to your next assertion.

    “the Arabs attacked, and the Israelis committed ethnic cleansing,”

    Israel now had attacking formidable enemies from without its new state borders seeking its destruction and it also had them within its new state borders from Arabs with allegiances to the outside attacking forces

    This was a time of war, a time of desperation with no guarantee that the Jews could stave off the attacks or would even survive. You speak as if it was an assured out come for the Jews and they knew it and went and just comminuted ethnic cleansing when it was nothing of the sort.

    I will not deny Jewish aggression in removing Arabs from their state. You are correct, that is what happened. These were desperate measures by a desperate people at a hellish time.

    Now we get to your next assertion.

    “just three years after what the Nazis did to them.”

    Add this what you assert yourself about what the Nazis did to them just 3 years earlier and you have Jews in a mindset of horror tht you nor I can comprehend. The Jews were going all out and they prevailed.

    Besides this, your assertion that what the nazis did them just 3 years earlier as if what the Jews did to the Arabs as similar is not in any way comparable and to try and do so shows your utter disregaured for the true horrors of what the Jews had just gone throurgh (1) Nazis were on the offensive just like the Arabs, the Jews were on the defense in both cases. (2) The Jews did not displace them to planed consecration camps for slave labor or state of the art organized extermination. The only concentration camps that Plantains were displaced to were on the lands of the attacking Arab armies and it is those same concentration camps today that the Arabs hold them in. Your assertion Liam is not even in the same star system.

    I believe it is one of the sickest crimes against humanity that the Palestine people have been kept endlessly suffering in these same Arab concentration camps since 1948 by exactly all the same Arab states that attacked Israel that caused their displacement for the reason as outlined above under the UN partition plan that the Arabs rejected.

    These displaced persons have never been allowed to settle in these major Arab states. Nor have they been afforded the constructive leadership to build a nation in land that the UN partition plan of 1947 gave them a chance at. The UN partition plan of 1947 gave that to the Palestinian people, but their Arab bothers in power spat on it.

    Ever since 1948 they have been kept in Arab camps and used as pawns by their Arab Palestinian leadership backed by these Arabs states to further there never ending quest to see to it that the Jews some how loose this very old war and are denied the rights to govern themselves in the state of Israel.

    Every wonder way they are called Palestinian “Authority”? I’m sure is does not have anything to do with Yassir Arafat holding the Palestinians in camps screaming to the world for help for his people while he stuffed away billions in banks overseas. Hell I would go under house arrest for a few years for that.

    When I see what the Arabs can do to their own Arab Palestine brothers, I can not even imagine what they would do to the Jews given the chance.

    Liam, this covers your time widow of 1947-1948. These are facts that anyone can look up.

    “If Franco is right and the Arabs did barter down the land Israel was given to a wasteland in scattered parts, then this is what has driven the Zionist agenda to steal the land which it covets for the final Jewish state.”

    This is outside your time window and is most important to disucss as well, I would alos I would like to address your assertions that Hamas is nothing more than powerful talk from a disempowered people.

    Before we can move on, we need to reasonably settle any disputes you have in my addressing of the factual accounting of what occurred with in your time window.

  • Liam Bailey

    Franco, before I get into it with you, I have posted no such article on DC voicing my opposition to stoppong the genocide in Sudan.

    I strongly oppose the actions of the Arab Sudanes government and strongly support anyone who can do anything to stop it. When I see the UN letting Sudanese leaders say no to the entry of peacekeepers it makes me physically sick. What is the point of the UN supposedly being there to stop attrocities like Darfur, if it can be made ineffective by the perpetrators of said attrocities. It stinks to high heaven. Please give me a link to my supposed article I would really like to know who posted it in my name.

  • defender

    I absolutely agree with the contents of comment number six by mr. christopher rose. ruvy, as i said before these strategies are only simple theorizes and CANNOT be taken into action. for example how in the world can they nuke all israel enemies. You said “from the first minute the jewish state announced its independentness it was attacked by a lot of enemies” and you say they should detroyed to dust as you said ” those who bless israel will be blessed those who curse her will be destroyed”. i’m sorry but that doesn’t make any sense to me and it is not a wise idea that can be discussed and voted about. the main problem in israelies administrations which is causing a lot of hatred among the arab nations should be rooted out or they should seek and find a solution to reduce the empty cries of the bullying powers. ruvy if you want to recieve the respect you want for your religion and your bliefs you need to respect peoples blieves also as well, they care about their religion as much as you do and they didn’t like the the contents of your comment # 15. from the way you react and curse whoever who disagrees with you i can tell what kind of personality you have but thats not what we’re discussing. i am simply saying you get what you give so watch out what you give, another comment like number 15 and ….

    ruvy, you need to know that liam’s opinion was not the lies of anti-israelies and jew-hating medias. i strongly disagree with you because you are simply calling liam a liar because he disagrees with you and does not have your point of view at the conflicts. its bad for your reputation, you are just as predujice about your country and homeland as we all are, if you can’t stand anything against you i advise you NOT to participate in blogcritics anymore. the reason that israeli citizens are banned from areas a & b is not that “they will be dead in a minute”, they can’t because arabs don’t feel safe around them of what they have seen from them. you said that your eyes are your authorities, mines are too, so is everybody’s elses.

  • sr

    ZEDD, YOU TRULY ARE A ROYAL PAIN IN THE ASS. PLEASE TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE DIP-STICK.

  • Zedd

    sr

    Business???

    I must be agitating someone…. :o) happy happy joy joy. Lets snuggle.

  • sr

    No snuggles tonight Sweetpea, however you made me laugh and I thank you for that.

  • STM

    Zedd, in my mind, and just speaking through my own personal experience, there is one big difference here between the two, and it is why many arabs and muslims have lost the support of the average person in the west: no terrorists supporting the black South African cause decided it would be a good idea to go to Bali (or anywhere else they’ve struck) and employ suicide bombers to kill innocent people who actually may well have supported their cause.

    That is what happened here: islamic terrorists like those active in Israel thought it would be a good idea to blow up a whole bunch of people on holidays.

    Any remaining sympathy I had after 9/11 (and there wasn’t much) for the plight of many muslims and arabs around the world evaporated in that instant. I will never countenence mass murder as a replacement for negotiation.

    While I don’t support the heavy-handed way in which Israel often retaliates against these provocations, I do support the right of a people not to have idiots walking into ice-cream parlours or buses and blowing up innocent men, woman and children – and to respond to it.

    In South Africa, most blacks were content to let the healing process to begin. In the middle east, most Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed. In addition, a hard-core of fundamentalist terrorists, some of whom use religion as their excuse and who think nothing of murdering anyone to further their cause indeed has that destruction of a people as their stated aim.

    The big problem is, they don’t understand us here in the west. Instead of cowing us into submission by such attacks, they only make us more determined to stand up to their insanity.

    That wasn’t the case with South Africa, which you should know as you left there as a young child and have lived most of your life in America.

    Virtually no one here would have spoken out in support of the Afrikaner regime and I’m sure the sentiment was similar in the US. I for one won’t support the Palestinian cause until genuine negotiation becomes their main weapon.

  • Zedd

    STM

    Most people spoke up for the Afrikaner regime here. Well actually didn’t and still don’t know what that is but…… Those that heard the argument actually thought Mandela and the ANC were terrorists.

    Also, again, I am concerned because you are dumping all Arabs in one pot. You are talking about 911 and that was not a Palestinian issue.

    Do you realise just how hated “The West” would be if the actions of some whites would be applied to every white person? I mean think. Your people (whites) have pretty much trampled the globe and attacked and stolen from EVERYONE, killed scores and left them destitute. But you expect to be gauged simply by your personal actions; as you should. Yet you pile the actions of a variety of people from different cultures and countries into one pile, using that as an excuse for their not getting their freedom.

    STM I am hurting. You really don’t know what racism is and it seems as though as good of a person as you seem to be, you really don’t see just how misguided your views are. SAD.

    You see STM many Africans and indigenous people were depressed. Oppressed to the point of inaction. Arabs are the one group that hasn’t dealt with racism from the west so they don’t know how to behave. They fight back because they don’t understand that they are supposed to march and beg and starve and be pitiful before anyone gives a hoot.

    STM America was attacked and went and caused the death of hundreds of thousands of people from another country. THAT is over reacting. THAT is crazy and scary. Being so distraught that you are willing to kill yourself and use yourself as a weapon in order to free your people is a totally different thing.

  • Zedd

    sr

    I’m glad you have a sense of humor. It makes life great!

  • Franco

    Liam,

    I was reviewing your links from your opinion article and your links out to DC. I was going back and forth between these researching the sites and your extensive work there and your several links to other blogs like Better Word and War Pages to name a few.

    I had gotten back late from a meeting and was tired when making this review and wanted to try and get my post out to you. In the process I apparently linked outside of DC to another blog thinking it was yours and found a piece taking a stand against going in to help Sudan because it was only a scam for an oil grab.

    After receiving your post on this I looked for it again to see if someone else was using your name. If I do find it and someone is posting your name to it, I will advise you at once.

    As I said, I was tired and pressed for time and it obviously made my review disorderly. I won’t let this happen again. My sincerest apology for this cross up in thinking it was your article.

  • STM

    I have decided to extend the olive branch to Zedd, to never argue with her again because it’s making my brain go fuzzy, to follow the path of least resitance and if not agree with everything she says, at least agree to disagree.

    I am doing this because I believe I need to explore my capacity to forgive and do not want to have an ongoing, endless, unwinnable fight with Zedd on these threads.

    I want me and Zedd to live in peace.

    So, are you with me Zedd?

  • Bliffle

    If one is willing to cite Aparthied of the Israelis, then one must be willing to confront the Aparthied of Muslims, so I googled “Christians Egypt”, “christians jordan”, “christians iraq” and discovered the gloomy reports of persecution of christians in those countries and the increasing emigration of christians. In several countries the numbers and percentages of christians has fallen precipitously, with christians losing their property, theri freedom and sometimes their lives. Just a couple days ago a christian in egypt was convicted for some muslim offense. And we all know about the condition of dhimmitude that awaits any non-muslim living in a muslim country.

    And few, if any, muslims seem concerned about such discrimination, and christians seem to have little legal recourse in those countries, should they be offended.

    Charges of ‘hypocricy’ are often made, but are quite futile, as hypocricy is as common in human society as the air we breath. We are all sinners and thus unable to escape being hypocritical. La Rochefaucauld said “hypocricy is the tribute vice pays to virtue”.

    Unfortunately, this puts us spectators at the hypocricy competitions into a quandary: we must study Comparative Apartheid to determine which side among all these warring factions to take sides with when we are pressed into service, as must inevitably happen, e.g., when confronted by a gun-wielding firebrand with the demand “which side are you on, man”.

    Deprived of a clear moral absolute we spectators have to make a relative one, usually biased by our self-interest. So whose Apartheid would one rather have in Israel, israeli or muslim? For me it nets out pretty easily to Israeli. I don’t like it, but I can live with it. At least Israeli apartheid is slightly more benign, and there’s hope of future moderation, whereas muslim apartheid seems more harsh and endless.

  • Liam Bailey

    Franco:

    I have responded to you over at Desicritics comment #26. I couldn’t get it posted here again, this time it said [7] banned word

  • Zedd

    STM

    I’ve always been with you. I didn’t feel as if we were fighting.

    I enjoy all of your input. You come across as a balanced individual with a few passions. You make me feel sane on BC because you reason.

    You don’t fade off into a weird emotional tangent. When I read your contributions I sensed that you were from out of the country. So for goodness sake, I couldn’t possibly feel negative about you.

    STM the issue of race is something we live with. We deal with it from the time we are able to think independently. One learns to parse out what is intentional vileness and just a culturally based and traditional mindset. That is how we function and don’t go mad.

    We are very much OKAY. Please engage me anytime. I enjoy it.

  • Zedd

    Biffle

    I think you are missing the point.

    The topic is about Palestine and Israel. You are commenting on religious groups and discrimination.

    The topic is about a political entity, a nation state and its functions.

    It would help you and the rest of us if we stay on topic.

    I’m thinking you don’t understand what apartheid is. It is a country’s legally institutionalized separation of a group because of a characteristic(s), denying them the full rights and access that the rest of the population within the society have. The “apart” aspect has to do with the seclusion of that group by law.

    What you are talking about is prejudice. You will find that in every society bud.

  • Bliffle

    Zedd, it appears that you aren’t aware that several countries and political entities in the ME discriminate legally against certAin religious people. Not because of simple prejudice but because of legal/political command and requirement. Yoju can’t dismiss that as simple prejudice. Israelis are not the only ones.

    You cannot say that anti-christian discrimination in ME countries is because of the simple prejudice of their childish citizens when discrimination is commanded by a countries laws.

    thus, when you invoke the charge of ‘apartheid’ against Israel, you must also charge ‘apartheid’ against Egypt, etc. Unless you are willing to deny that aprteid exists only in Israel.

    Thus, you force us, those not directly involved, to study “Comparaitive Apartheid” in order to make a personal judgement. And when one does that, one may not end on the side of the palestinians.

  • Liam Bailey

    Bliffle, if such a comparative Apartheid study was made as you suggest anyone reasonable would and has come out on the side of the Palestinians. Because the other countries aren’t committing genocide by attrition as Israel is doing with its policy of measured but relentless killing (in dribs and drabs so nobody notices) or currently fomenting civil strife to take the heat of them for a while in the aftermath of Beit Hanoun. Nor are they carrying out ethnic cleansing, Ruvy just argued with me on this and I provided three links to Israel’s most determined campaign of ethnic cleansing against the lands native Bedouin tribes, who populated the land long before Israel was talked about.

  • Liam Bailey

    Give me something to comparatively study that against.

  • Liam Bailey

    The comment before my last never posted for some reason, ok. Bliffle, if people take up the comparastive study you talk of I suggest that anyone reasonable would come out on the side of the Palestinians. Becasuse the other countries aren’t carrying out genocide by attrition as Israel are doing with their measured killin (in dribs and drabs so nobody notices) in Gaza. Nor are they actively carrying out ethnic cleansing. I provided three links for Ruvy over at Desi of Israel’s most active campaign of ethnic cleansing against the lands native Bedouin tribes, who populated the land long before Israel was even talked about.

    Israel too is guily of discrimination of its Christian population, some also call that ethnic cleansing, Read: Israel’s purging of Palestinian Christians by Jonathan Cook. Search on Informationclearinghouse.

    Give me something (current) to comapratively sdtudy that against.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Liam: the new anti-spam comments system is occasionally recording some false positives during its training period.

    Please rest assured that all valid comments will make it on to the site, rapidly when I’m awake and, of necessity, a little more slowly when I’m sleeping!

    Thanks for your patience during this transition phase.

  • Liam Bailey

    I do apologise Christopher, I didn’t know that when it came up [3648] banned word that my comment was going off to be moderated I thought it was a shut system that was actually preventing my comment from being posted full stop, because it was offensive. Thank you for telling me this, the hours I spent changing every word I thought could be the cause of the error message as per the commentr policy, people would have thought I was a retard the amount of words I had misspelt, luckily it didn’t post anyway.

    A couple of questions, 1: would it help if I was logged in when commenting?

    2: could you remove the section of Franco’s comment #75 where he accuses me of bias because of an article I posted on DC criticizing efforts to stop the genocide in Darfur, an article which after my reply he admitted doesn’t exist. Whether this was a genuine mistake or not, mud sticks and as I am against all forms of oppression, genocide and unnecesary violence — to clarify I think a war to stop the Darfur genocide would be neccesary violence– I can’t help but feel this will affect my repuation and if possible I would like it removed.

  • Franco

    Christopher

    I support Liam’s request in post #95 addressing item #2

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Liam, it is BC practice to issue corrections whenever possible rather than try to retrospectively amend the written record – the original of which would still exist in Google anyway. I believe Franco’s apology and correction in comment #84 achieves this.

  • Bliffle

    No, Liam, it is not a foregone conclusion that anyone who studies Comparative Apartheid must emerge on the side of the Palestinians. There are many sincere people who have made such a study and emerged on the side of the Israelis, or the Americans, or the Christians, etc. If there are more sides then there are more possible outcomes.

    The case for the Palestinians is not certain, and the case against others is not certain. What is certain is that the crime is not on one side only, and an honest person who does not have a direct interest in the outcome and who does not enter the study with a powerful incentive to bias his/her researches so as to sway other people and enhance his/her own purse will discover enough crime to spread blame around generously.

    It comes down to a matter of personal judgement. If the student of Comparative Apartheid then adopts a Tentative Working Theory, while leaving open the possibility of amending his theory upon sufficient evidence and proofs, he/she is unlikely to feel friendly toward accusations of Apartheid. Weaklings that we mere mortals are, he/she is likely to feel resentment and resist such brute force. Of course, this worsens your own case. Your methods are counter-productive to your cause.

  • Liam Bailey

    Bliffle, we need to back track here, you started off by failing to make sense and I nearly followed you down a path of nosensical drivell, before we go any further…

    In your original post to Zedd, you said: thus, when you invoke the charge of ‘apartheid’ against Israel, you must also charge ‘apartheid’ against Egypt, etc. Unless you are willing to deny that aprteid exists only in Israel.

    Thus, you force us, those not directly involved, to study “Comparaitive Apartheid” in order to make a personal judgement. And when one does that, one may not end on the side of the palestinians.

    Aside from the obvious mistake of arguing against yourself and charging Zedd to deny that Apartheid only exists in Israel, when I’m sure you meant to ask him if he was willing to say such a thing. You then mention a comparative Apartheid looking at all Middle Eastern states guilty of discrimination against another religion, and say people may not come out on the side of the Palestinians. This is wrong, in a comparative Apartheid Study you would look at all the countries to decide which was the worst or closest to being Aparthied, until another country bombs and indiscriminately kills members of a religous minority in said country, it will pale into insdignificanced beside Israel/Palestine and such a study will not be neccesary.

    You then say: There are many sincere people who have made such a study and emerged on the side of the Israelis, or the Americans, or the Christians, etc. If there are more sides then there are more possible outcomes

    This is ludicrous, first of all, name one “sincere person who has carried out such a study, I ask because Apartheid has never been mentioned in the same breath of any ME country except Israel, and until they either do they above and kill indiscriminately, or start building a whopping great wall to spearate ethnic minority’s from the pure religous, in this case Jewish majority, I don’t think it will be. As I have said, John Duggard, Special Rapporteur for the UN on the OPT and a South African professor of Political sciences has called the situation in the OPT apartheid.

    In closing even if somneone did do a comparative apartheid study on the Middle East, which sounds funnier everytime I say it, they would declare the Israeli state as the worst offender. That said if the studier was against Apartheid, which would seem to be a given then they would be on the side of the Palestinians. Therefore where you say: There are many sincere people who have made such a study and emerged on the side of the Israelis, or the Americans, or the Christians, etc. If there are more sides then there are more possible outcomes so, these people who have done comparative apartheid studies in the ME and come out on the side of Israel and the U.S, are obviously accusing the Palestinians of running Israeli Jews under Apartheid. Yes, they were sincere, sincerely full of bull.

  • Bliffle

    Will condescension succeed where brute force has failed? If condescension, in turn, fails, will curses succeed? Will accusations of insincerity?

  • Liam Bailey

    You picked an appropriate name Bliffle, BTW, bull isn’t a curse, and I wasn’t accusing anyone of insincerity I was accusing you of making the whole thing up.

    Christopher I have discovered the problem it is my blog URL< I can post if I omit it but when I try to post with it it comes up error 3654 banned word. I assume it must be the warpages part. For anyone wanting to check it out a link to my blog is below.

    Liam Bailey
    War Pages

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    It’s quite odd that it is Akismet that is objecting to your url, Liam, what with it being so closely tied to WordPress…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Liam,

    You are so intent in creating an image of Zionist “apartheid” here and so determined to create an image of the “zionazi” ethnic cleansing agent that you forget that there are those who write here who are a lot more critical of this regime than you are. I understand its weaknesses from the inside. Your examples of mistreatment of Bedouin within “green line” Israel are one reason that this government and the military it increasingly politicizes will collapse.

    The IDF relies on Bedouin trackers to help it in the Negev. While the IDF may appreciate these trackers, the other parts of the Israeli bureaucracy, who bring with them all the racism, stupidity and patronizing attitude that one can expect from fools who have neither education nor love of the land they live in, abuse Bedouin for simply desiring to have their own homes on their own terms. That is called freedom, and no Israeli bureaucrat understands that concept at all, except perhaps those born in America or Canada. Most Israeli bureaucrats either have or have inherited the mentality of Eastern European Jews – people who have no concept of freedom at all…

    But this is not ethnic cleansing. What happened in Gush Qatif was ethnic cleansing. The Israeli government is not intent on making the lives of the Bedouin miserable or on breaking their spirit. They are just too stupid to have respect for human beings or for human dignity. In Gush Qatif, the government HAD the intent of ruining the lives of the people it had encouraged to live there. It was a real case of “getting the Jews” because these people had built successful lives by following Jewish law and not really participating in the sick imitation of America that Israeli culture had become. They were Jews who were free. Not only did that freedom had to be destroyed, but the hate that motivates secular Israeli elites dictated that their lives had to be destroyed as well.

    In time it will become clear that in Gush Qatif, the Israeli government killed the dream it had pretended to foster for so many years. The Zionist regime committed suicide there. It is just a matter of time until the corpse falls over and dies.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    Let it go. All of the EXPERTS say its APARTHIED.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Let it go. All of the EXPERTS say its APARTHIED.

    Hey lady,

    I’m not letting any damned foreigner who knows nothing about the Middle East tell me what happens in my country. I live here. You don’t tell me. I TELL YOU. As for the “experts”, idiots like Tom Friedman, for example, tell me who writes their paycheck and I’ll tell you what they will say. It’s an old journalistic principle (check it out with the journalists on this site, like Stan Denham) made famous by the boys who bagged Nixon over Watergate. It’s called “follow the money.”

    I don’t try to tell you about DeKlerk (sp?) or Mandela. That is your bailiwick of expertise. You lived it. Don’t you try to tell me about what goes on here. That is my bailiwick of expertise. I LIVE IT.

    One other thing, Zedd. I did study linguistics, and am aware of the way Dutch (and therefore Afrikaans) reflects the Germanic spelling of words. It is spelled A-P-A-R-T-H-E-I-D, as in hides (skin) set apart.

    Cheers

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I have a real problem with your contentions above. You seem to be saying that people who don’t live in Israel aren’t allowed to have an opinion on anything to do with the country and that you know better simply because you live there.

    Both of these ideas seem highly debatable and problem-laden concepts to me…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    It is simple, Chris. You’re a native of England, and you live in Spain. You’ve been in the military of the UK. You know about these places and things in a way that I never would. I respect that knowledge and never lecture you on these subjects. Period. I wouldn’t even think to. Dave Nalle, whatever his other opinions are, grew up in Lebanon and Syria and lived in Jordan for a time. So, whatever my opinions are, I’m very careful about arguing with him over things he knows far better than I ever will. I live here, but he was born here. When I’ve lived here for 15 or 20 years, maybe I’ll sing a different song… Stan Denham grew up in and lives in Australia, a place I’d like to visit, but have not yet had the opportunity to. So when he writes about Oz, I listen and do not argue. I could name other examples, but that should suffice for illustrative purposes. It is called respect, Chris.

    Do you have a problem with respect, Chris?

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy mate, that’s not respect, it’s some weird kind of excluding oneupmanship whereby you are trying to discount people’s opinions, even stop them having opinions. That’s not respect, it’s a snide kind of bullying and completely asinine.

    As you know, every country has a full range of political, cultural and, yes, even spiritual beliefs. You are simply trying to claim that you know better than others simply because you live there. It’s obviously trash, but could I expect better? Yes I could, and do…

  • Liam Bailey

    Ruvy, you are contradicting yourself. You are trying to make out that you know better about Israel because you live there:

    I understand its weaknesses from the inside. is the weakest example of your arrogance. And in the same comment you shatter the illusion completely when you say:

    The Israeli government is not intent on making the lives of the Bedouin miserable or on breaking their spirit.

    Lets see… The Bedouin villages were there long before Israel was even thought about, because the buildings exist and haven’t got an Israeli government permit, Israel takes this as license to declare the buildings and therefore the villages illegal. This gives them the allowance to try and force the Bedouin off their ancestral land into the urban ghetto’s it is building as part of the same policy. They are doing this by denying the unrecognized villages any infrastructure, water, electricity, schools, roads and access to their ancestral pastures. The Bedouin that this has forced to move into the urban towns israel wants them in have reported that the conditions are not much better, and in some ways worse. The Bedouin now remaining on their land are clearly not going to be forced off their land by the original policy, calling for more drastic measures. Hence the demolition of their villages and homes, leaving women and children without shelter in the dead of the Negev winter. That is one this you may know better than me, just exactly how harsh a winter the Bedouin are being left to freeze to death in. NO, Israel isn’t intent on making their lives miserable or breaking their spirit, not at all.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Liam,

    “The Israeli government is not intent on making the lives of the Bedouin miserable or on breaking their spirit. They are just too stupid to have respect for human beings or for human dignity.”

    You have trouble with that statement, I see. Stupidity, lacking respect for human beings and just not really caring about their needs is something that can be fatal. I know. I survived a Minnesota winter on the streets because it was very hard to get any kind of financial aid the year that I was homeless. Bodies were found frozen, in large part because the government did not have respect for human beings or was willing to care for their needs. And let me be clear. A winter day in St. Paul is normally -25C in the evenings and -15C during the daytime. At least it was during 1982-3. The Negev can be bad news, but it is nowhere near that bad.

    Israeli policy towards Bedouins is a policy of paternalism, lack of respect and generally not giving a damn. And yes, it can be fatal.

    But you entirely ignored the comparison – purposely breaking lives and spirits of a free people out of hostility to their ideas and jealousy of their success. Sorry, Liam, you do not get off that easy. The comparison was there for a reason.

    The 9,000 residents of Gush Qatif driven off of land the government asked them to settle, remain internal refugees, ignored as much as possible by an uncaring government hostile to their success and jealous of it, and determined to make them as miserable as it can in the process. They are determined to break these people and turn them into the most miserable citizens of the nation – and they will be judged before the Almighty for their sins, if we do not stretch their necks first on a hangman’s noose.

    The Bedouin are generally ignored in the media, even when they steal, run contraband, cooperate with the mafia and occasionally kill. The residents of Gush Qatif, who suffered five years of Qassam bombardment from the Arab cities to the north were vilified by the Hebrew press. In addition, there was an entire book of government guidelines, which have still been kept largely secret designed to suppress their political expression. The Bedouin are regarded as criminals – which many are. The residents of Gush Qatif and those who support them are regarded as security threats to the state. They are denied due process of law.

    The government does not want to start up with Bedouin, many of whom are criminals. They fear an international incident with some stupid Brit or other “well meaning” Rachel Corrie type getting in the way of its own criminal dealings.

    But they are more than happy to brutally attack the Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria and jail them for months at a time, some of whom are young girls younger than fourteen years of age. There is a reason I say the Israeli government and the business elites that support them are the shit kikes that Hitler missed. They are.

    They are uncaringly fatal in their attitude towards the Bedouin. And they are murderously brutal in their attitude towards believing Jews.

  • Liam Bailey

    Ruvy:

    Whatever the reasoning behind Israel’s treatment of the Bedouin they are still trying to break their spirit, to make them so miserable they have no choice but to succumb to Israel’s ghettoization.

    You mention H=Gush Qatif for the second time as an example of Israel’s mistreatment of Jews, you have provided other examples of this i.e. the Arab getting off with attempted murder etc, as examples of how the Jews are more discriminated against than the Arabs, but all you do is prove the opposite. If your goverment is capable of treating its Jewish brothersa and sisters as badly as you explain they have in Gush Qatif, then imagine what it is capable of doing to the reviled –born terrorists– Arabs.

    Sorry, we don’t need to imagine we read about it almost everyday. For every example you can privide like (which isn’t many) Gush Qatif, I can provide at least ten examples of worse treatment by Israel of Arabs. For your examples of Israeli courts being lenient on an Arab and harsh on a Jew, I have one word for you Hebron. Where the IDF supervises settlers driving the Arabs from their homes and businesses. I can provide ten examples of the IDF supervising Olive growers being harrased at best, shot or beaten at worst as the settlers try to take the fertile land for their own. Examples like a settler opening fire on Arabs picking their olive crop, badly wounding one in the neck before being wrestled to the ground by the angry olive growers, at this point the onlooking IDF soldiers with a tank for support decide to get involved. The shooter is taken into IDF custody but no charges were ever brought. Need I go on?

  • The village idiot

    Hey Liambean for certain you are a politically correct dumb fucking liberal bastard. See my big tears for the Arabs. May they rust your narrow view PC screen. Comment you may. My answer is up yours dip-stick. ISRAEL FOREVER.

  • Liam Bailey

    Okay, The Village Idiot. Pat yourself on the back, you may never do anything decent with your life, but you picked the most appropriate name on the entire BC network.

  • driveby

    UP YOURS LIMABEAN. NOW THATS DECENT YA THUNK.