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Israel Abducts U.S. Congresswoman and Human Rights Workers

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June 30, 2009 15:30 local time: Israeli Occupation forces have boarded the Free Gaza Movement's aid boat Spirit of Humanity and abducted 21 humanitarian aid workers including six-term U.S. Congresswoman and former presidential candidate Cynthia McKinney and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire. Major news outlets MSNBC, ABC, CNN, BBC, FOX, and The Nation have been silent on events, thus far.

"This is an outrageous violation of international law against us. Our boat was not in Israeli waters, and we were on a human rights mission to the Gaza Strip," said McKinney. "President Obama just told Israel to let in humanitarian and reconstruction supplies, and that's exactly what we tried to do. We're asking the international community to demand our release so we can resume our journey."

A communication from the Spirit of Humanity, earlier today, reported that the boat would continue to move slowly toward the Gaza port despite being surrounded by Israeli warships at 24 miles off Israel's coast. The activists aboard refused to retreat despite Israeli threats and warned the Israelis that they must not fire on unarmed human rights workers and journalists.

"We didn't come with guns and weapons, but with just humanitarian aid, in an attempt to break the siege of Gaza and to tell the apathetic world about what is happening in the Strip, especially after the last war," said Huwaida Araf, Chairperson of the Free Gaza Movement in an radio interview with Nazareth-based Al-Shams.

Arraf says the Spirit of Humanity left Cyprus after being inspected and given security clearance. It is carrying "medical supplies, children's toys, and reconstruction kits" to the 1.5 million people trapped in Gaza.

In 2007, Israel heightened the blockade on Gaza, which is home to some 1.5 million people. Please see the Free Gaza Movement's web site for live updates.

Video shows the Cyprus departure of the Spirit of Humanity on June 29th.

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About Tolstoy's Cat

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If this indeed is true, then it’s outrageous. And so is the silence of the mainstream media.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here’s a link to another media source.

  • Jeff

    Cynthia McKinney is a total nutjob! How come there’s no outcry from those wackos to release the hostages the Hamas TERRORISTS and MURDERERS still hold captive?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What has this got to do with Israeli action?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Well, it has everything to do with it. Jeff’s argument is nothing but a caveman version of all like arguments along the same vein.

    It’s just easier to see in a less sophisticated version. Really though, it’s quite the same as any argument that supports authority–whether by making an attack on the opposition or defending the authority itself.

    Either way it looks as stupid to an anarchist. It’s merely that Jeff seems like he has nothing more than an unexamined defense. To someone who looks closer, this will extend to arguments defending actions by authority that people ordinarily present. They’re generally unexamined. (When they are, it’s through a biased lens.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It has everything to do with Jeff. The fact that he uses his hatred of Cynthia McKinney as any kind of counter-argument, again speaks volumes about Jeff.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not the best analogy. It was humanitarian aid and the Israelis clearly overstepped their authority. It was an arbitrary action on their part, bordering on illegitimacy.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    When you put the word “abduct” in the title it makes it a lot harder to take this article seriously especially when it’s already involving Cynthia McKinney and a bunch of terrorist-loving moonbats.

    And even if Jeff hates Cynthia McKinney, which is perfectly understandable, he DOES have a point. Why do the protests from these tranzis only go one way?

    I guarantee McKinney and Co. are being treated a hell of a lot better by the Israelis — prior to their speedy deportation — than Hammas hostages are.

    When you start choosing one group of murderers over another you become complicit in the crimes of the one you favor. They’re still both evil.

    Dave

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    #6 Agreed.

    (Someone got this article out very quickly! Thanks so much whoever you are :-)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dave,

    So, the innocent people in Gaza (on whom bombs are being dropped) they have planes? They’re evil? They have been without medical care, electricity is random…is that true for the Israelis?

    When you have a captive group of people without the means to defend themselves that you invade and bomb and deprive them of supplies through blockades for years and refuse to sign a ceasefire agreement and then kill people within their borders as alleged potential threats so that you can then ostensibly and apparently justify bombing them–is there a difference?

    Did you bother to look at the 9 videos I posted Dave? Or just like the rest of your positions are they just based on one-sided, unexamined ideology?

    You are becoming nothing but another limp ideologue to me.

  • Clavos

    You’re welcome. Had to, you were ahead of the timing curve on this one.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Thanks Clav! :-)

    Note to self: Do not read Dave’s posts when you are the chip leader in a 45 player sit & go at 6 people left. (didn’t even notice the second caller–there goes an hour and a half of strategy down the sink) Back to the drawing board. :-)

    P.S. Dave…I used ‘abducted’ because I find authority illegitimate. That is a reasonable view imo. It the view that legitimates it that I find biased.

  • zingzing

    cindy, you watch that crass doc? i did, and it was pretty cool. not enough about the music for my taste–totally about the anarchist actions of the group, including one thing i didn’t know about.

    they cut up and reorganized a bunch of reagan and thatcher speech tapes, turning them into a conversation about how thatcher rationalized the falklands war. then they sent the doctored tape to newspapers all over mainland europe, claiming them to be secret kgb tapes. it got pretty hairy, the us press fell for it, the kgb contacted crass (trying to recruit them) and they were eventually found out to be behind the hoax. of course, by then, the fact that there was much truth on the tape, despite its origins, was revealed to the public, who couldn’t give a shit. bah.

    a bit from a newspaper article at the time (san fran chronicle):

    “It said, “From the drift of the tape, the evident purpose was to cause problems for Mrs. Thatcher by blaming her for the sinking of the British destroyer Sheffield and also for us by stirring trouble on the INF (Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces) issue.”

    The Sheffield was sunk by Argentine forces last year during the war with Britain over the Falkland Islands.”

    of course, the british were behind the sinking of the sheffield, or at least choosing that ship to be sunk, as it would cause the most response amongst the public.

    the music they do present in the doc is crass at their most pure punk, which is wonderful and all, but they did a lot of experimental stuff as well. so, enjoy the doc, but go check out crass’ music as well.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Cynthia McKinney may be a moonbat but I admire her tenacity. She’s willing to fight for her principles and damn it she’ll make herself heard. There are lessons, both pro and con, to be learned from Ms. McKinney. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the heart of the country doesn’t have the will to be as passionate — it might take them away from voting for the next American Idol.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    thanks zing. i didn’t finish it (a.d.d. and all). now i will. how excellent. i was ready for a melancholy look at what i missed not ever getting to live on a commune. that sounds very cool. and maybe an idea that can be recycled in various (if smaller) ways.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Well your comment is among the most intelligent and amusing, Ollie. And would that everyone were so engaged, they probably wouldn’t have time to bomb anyone. Thanks for volunteering your…ahem…anatomy. It’s for a good cause.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Cindy, just as one group of murderers doesn’t provide an excuse for another group, the innocence of one group of victims doesn’t erase the innocence of another group of victims. Are your Gaza residents more innocent than an Israeli kid killed by a suicide bomber or a car bomb? No, they’re all innocent. And when you choose one group over another you are abetting the bad behavior of those you support by default.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave, are you choosing sides?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’m sorry, Cindy. You’ve just lost all my respect for you. This is a nice agit-prop piece for the Arabs, more appropriately labeled “satire”.

    You’ve put yourself on the side of murderers, killers and terrorists and made yourself their useful idiot.

    Mazel tov!

    As for Cynthia McKinney, there is only one lesson to be learned from her. Some women should be shoved into a kitchen and told to bake cookies – and the cookies they bake should be tossed into the trash before anyone dies from eating their garbage. Cynthia McKinney is one such woman.

    It will be very hard to take anything you say seriously from now on.

    Summary: Tolstoy’s Cat needs her litter-box cleaned.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    One bit of praise is due you, Cindy. Your title, “Israel Abducts etc” will get you notice from every anti-Israel and Jew-hating group on the net. I can’t wait for this to be featured on some neo-Nazi site.

  • zingzing

    i’m sure you’re on there too, ruvy.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And with the arrival of Ruvy, the circle of life is complete.

    And no, Zing, I’m not taking sides. That’s the point.

    Dave

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dave,

    Are your Gaza residents more innocent than an Israeli kid killed by a suicide bomber or a car bomb? No, they’re all innocent.

    Yes they are all innocent.

    And when you choose one group over another you are abetting the bad behavior of those you support by default.

    Here is where I disagree, Dave. I don’t choose one group over another. I choose all innocent people–they all go in one group. All innocent people should stand up for each other. They will be the ones who are the victims of the terrorists on both sides.

    However, I add the note that the Israeli govt purposely didn’t renew the ceasefire agreement that was available to them. Hamas did not fire rockets until the ceasefire agreement was broken by the Israelis. (It says so right on the Israeli govt web site. I read it there myself and posted a quote referring to it with a list of 9 videos.) Israel needed an ‘acceptable’ reason not to have to negotiate. So they refused and then found some ‘alleged’ POTENTIAL threat to break the ceasefire. Because they are fucking NUTS! I suppose it’s because GOD them Israel. They will never settle peacefully.

    What do you call a govt that bombs a civilian population that is defenseless? That has no aircraft? No nothing? An astute scholar has called it a massacre. That is what it should be called.

    So, once more, just so you understand me. I support all innocents on both sides. Again the problem as so many problems in the world right now, witnessed by massive protests worldwide, is government. It always has been, it always will be.

    Open your eyes. People the world over, by the millions, are struggling against the few people in authority and trying to overcome their control. Here all people do, day after day, is argue about the same control govt has over them. And yet I am repeatedly asked how would we ever survive without government? How will we ever survive with it?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Of course he’s taking sides.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    What I don’t understand though, is why he is taking sides with the government against people? I though Dave was for minimal government? I didn’t think he would support government murder of a hostage population.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Your government is illegitimate Ruvy. I am sure you would have known my opinion about that.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy, I have a lower opinion of the government of Israel than you do. But until we kick the traitors out, and put someone better in, that is what there is. And they are at least doing a showboat version of defending the country’s sovereignty against interference from shit like Cynthia McKinney and the ever so righteous NGO’s who have all the sympathy in the world for Arab murdserers and none for victims of failed ountries:

    ** like Eritrea (Israel accepted 60 refugees from Eritrea last Wednesday, granting them visas and passports);

    ** like refugees from the Sudan (Israel has a whole community of Sudanese refugees, both Christian and Moslem, who have fled war, rape and massacre).

    What you do not know or understand about this conflict makes your article look positively stupid. But don’t feel bad. You have plenty of company on the web, and under the terms “Israel abducts” you presently have a page-rank of 2 – oops! 3 – Foreign Policy Journal or Mathaba just edged you out.

    There are lots of idiots out there mouthing similar garbage to you, and lots of useful idiots for the Arabs. You’ve just joined their club. Fortunately for you, they do not charge dues! If there were fewer of them, you might be able to make money from some “Palestine” magazine, like Liam Bailey (who formerly wrote here) does. But I suspect you have gotten to the party a little late for that.

  • zingzing

    well, dave, if you’re not picking sides, good for you.

    i’m of the opinion that they’re both–and i’ve said this before–like children fighting over a sandbox. (except with bombs, or rocks or something.)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    23 first sentence should have been italics: quoting Dave.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    You will have to have expected that I am not going to be anti-human being, but that I would be anti-govt. I have yet to find a govt that isn’t terroristic. Did you expect that I would hold Israel higher than any other govt? Govts kill people. That is what domination is about.

    I have no interest in supporting Israel in its insane actions. I have no interest in supporting Hamas in its insane actions.

    I told you, I think you should be marching on your govt and demanding the rights of your Arab neighbors and also your Jewish ones. That is sane. Massacres and wars aren’t.

    Neo-nazis are unlikely to be very interested in the plight of Arabs or Jews. I don’t expect this article will hold any appeal.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ollie is gone and I am left me talking to myself in comment 16? lol And I invited company.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Cindy, in this article you have chosen sides, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. By tacitly backing the position of McKinney and her agents provocateur group who Israel could reasonably see as a threat, you are choosing to side with Hamas. Not the innocents, the terrorists.

    The purpose of McKinney’s group was to provoke a reaction exactly like this and draw attention to the situation. Israel reacted as they wanted and made them a cause celebre, and you’re playing along.

    That’s all fine, but you should at least admit that none of this is moving anyone towards a peaceful settlement, it’s all just escalating the situation.

    Dave

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dave,

    I guess you didn’t not read the 300 words. The ship was searched and given security clearance in Cyprus.

    I am incredulous at your ability to warp the situation. A crew which includes a former Congresswoman/presidential candidate and a Nobel Laureate, who are taking a cargo of toys and medicine to people who have been severely blockaded for 2 years, and have been security cleared are such a threat to a fleet of warships that they have to all be removed and taken away?

    I can’t wait to see what the big O guy does about it.

  • zingzing

    dave, do you think they had something other than toys and medicine, or are you picking sides?

    do you agree that toys and medicine are innocuous objects?

    maybe these people were looking for this sort of reaction, i dunno. but the fact is that’s what they were carrying and those things should go through.

    if this woman wasn’t on board, would you be behind such a venture? or does politics trump humanitarianism?

    you seem to be backing israel’s actions with no regard for what actually happened. i don’t give a shit what this woman wants, but those toys and medicine should go through.

  • zingzing

    (to continue,) and if you don’t, you’ve chosen sides whether you’re ready to acknowledge it or not.

  • Cannonshop

    #34 Zing, they don’t NEED more than “Toys and Medicine” to provide aid and assistance to Hamas-all they need, is to provoke a reaction by appearing (to their target) to have more.

    Study some Psyops literature, the methods and suggestions for methods fall right in line with this incident. Not all attacks involve guns or bombs, because not all targets require guns or bombs. It’s ridiculously easy to manufacture an event that hurts your chosen target, especially in an unstable political situation like Israel. In fact, it would have worked AGAINST Hamas if McKinney had carried anything OTHER than toys and medicines. (notably, Medical supplies are critical to waging warfare. How do you assure that the medical supplies in this case would NOT be going to Hamas “Fighters” instead of civilian kids? you can’t…)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Oh an Dave, you may have missed this part but both the Israeli govt and Hamas are terrorists.

    Do you hear yourself? Israel bombed civilians in a fishbowl, defenseless people–not terrorists. Why is Israel more legitimate than Hamas in your eyes Dave?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The toys and medicine will go through – after a security check – the woman will not. Frankly, she is lucky not to be arrested and tossed into some pokey in Tel Aviv somewhere. That is what she deserves.

    The fact that she is a Nobel Laureate is irrelevant. Yassir Arafat was a Nobel Laureate, and Shimon Peres is a Nobel Laureate – both of them have committed murder.

    As I have pointed out, the author’s complete ignorance of the motives of the players here makes this article look stupid. Frankly any highlighting of it makes the site look like an Arab agit-prop outfit.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hamas, Israel, Hamas, Israel, Hamas, Israel

    What does it have to do with Hamas Cannon? What about the people? What about their goal, which was to bring attention to the situation the people find themselves in?

  • ralph

    If people commit illegal acts it is normal that they are punished.
    I would like to know if those people protested also against Hamas rockets firing and suicide attacks against Israeli civilians or if they protest against the killing of Muslim by other Muslim ?
    Or lifes become important only if Israel
    kill people acting as self defence or retaliation ?

    ralph

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Israel bombed civilians in a fishbowl, defenseless people-

    Poor, poor Palestinians – who dance for joy when Jewish children die.

    You haven’t made a choice, Cindy? You’re for “the people”? What a fool you sound like! What a useful idiot you make yourself into. At least you should charge Hamas for the favors you are doing them!

  • Cannonshop

    #39 what ABOUT the people, Cindy? the Congresswoman’s doing this for Plolitical reasons. Whether naive ones, or sinister, makes no difference. There are children without medicine in war-zones throughout the world, (including, but not limited to, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan, Africa-in-general, and the Shan people in Asia.) She chose to defy Israeli law in particular, and show solidarity with Hamas and the “Palestinian Cause”.

    The kids have little or nothing to do with a Congresswoman pulling a PR stunt-other than being an easy path to headlines and a chance to ‘stand out’ by emulating Mr. Carter.

    Hell, if she were serious about just alleviating suffering, there’s folks right here in the Western Hemisphere who get less aid and need it more. This was a publicity stunt at Best and a cynical move to undermine Israeli sovereignty (most likely), with the intent of assisting in the destruction of Israel as a sop to the radical muslims in the region, so she could win brownie points with the AMERICAN left.

    she wanted headlines, she’s got ‘em.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Terrorist Fire Two Mortar Shells at Israel

    Arab Rock Throwing Causes Hevron Car to Crash

    Where’s the outrage, Cindy? Where’s the breaking news article? When Jewish life is threatened you don’t give a god-dazmn, do you? But when some precious bullshit operation to make Jews looks bad is thwarted, out comes the concern, the over-wrought headlines, the agit-prop bullshit.

    That is hypocrisy, and a double-standard, the kind of shit the infantile left is famous for, the trash that makes me regard them (and you) lower than garbage. That is why you have lost all my respect.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Oh, just a small correction Cannon. They didn’t break Israeli law. In fact Israel broke international law by taking them from international waters where Israel has no jurisdiction.

    So, I suppose this changes your mind. Since you are concerned with the legality, yes?

    Of course they are attempting to bring attention to Gaza, Cannon. Both the article and I said as much. What’s wrong with that? When you have a cause you want publicity.

    the “Palestinian Cause”

    So, you’re saying what? You support apartheid? Palestinians don’t have the right to exist?

    Hell, if she were serious about just alleviating suffering…

    Palestinians don’t deserve to be cared about? It seems as if it is unacceptable to you.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Oh look, more opinion direct from the Stone Age via Ruvy: “Some women should be shoved into a kitchen and told to bake cookies”. And he won’t take you seriously, Cindy. You must be devastated!

    On a slightly more serious note, it comes as no surprise that Ruvy sees no difference between reporting an unusual news event involving a US political figure and everyday reports from a warzone.

    Doesn’t it get tiring carrying that massive boulder of resentment around all the time? It sure is reading this repetitive prejudice.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy, obviously, you support apartheid! In Gaza, in 2005, not only were Jews kicked out to placate your shitty government, the dead Jews got kicked out, too! The graves were disinterred, the bodies disturbed, a violation of OUR religous law. All this so that Gaza coudl be judenfrei und judenrein Jew free and Jew clean – so that Arab standards of APARTHEID would be enforced. More hyposcrisy from the infantile left! When Olmert was dragged to Washington to have some bullshit meeting with the Arabs and Bush last year, the Arabs would not shake Olmert’s hand, nor allow him or Livni to enter the same entrance as they did. They were required to enter the servant’s entrance, like the hired help. Jews were treated as second class dogs at a public conference. Not a peep from the infantile left. Not a word in the western media.

    When Jews get treated like shit, or get torn bone from bone, you don’t give a damn! But shoot a fuckin’ Arab’s toe off and you all scream genocide!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    AND YOU BELIEVE IN APARTHEID FOR JEWS!

    To which address would you like your hakenkreuz [Translation: swastika. Comments Editor] sent, and would you like a death’s head on it or not?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Cindy, you’re spot on about Dave; he has been selling this line about him being objective and informed by facts for years now and simply can’t or won’t accept that he is utterly dogmatic. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic to see such prejudice masquerading as objectivity. At least with Ruvy we know what we’re dealing with; Dave appears to have done a deal with Orwell.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    Here is the whole story–all two sentences.

    Terrorist Fire Two Mortar Shells at Israel
    Reported: 09:08 AM – Jul/01/09

    (IsraelNN.com) Terrorists fired two mortar shells at Israel Wednesday morning. No one was injured. The shells fell just short of the security fence near the Karni border crossing.

    January 2009:

    Israel bombs Gaza into the night

    Israel has made 60 air strikes on the Gaza Strip in a single night after the first daily truce to allow in humanitarian aid expired.

    A nation with a full military have bombed people armed with rocks. Like your other article suggests–they throw rocks. What should they do? What would you do under their conditions? How many planes and ships and tanks do Palestinians have. Or are they going to keep you under apartheid with their rocks? Bigotry isn’t apartheid.

    About the article’s use of the word ‘terrorist’. Is the Israeli govt terrorists too? Bombing civilians would qualify, I would think. They think they can get away with it because people give legitimacy to governments. Hell, if China says some group are terrorists it’s automatically given credence. Look at the Uighurs, China says they terrorists, Joanne wrote it in her article. Now there is what I call indoctrination. Your average ‘freedom-loving’ American willing to take the word of an oppressive totalitarian regime about who are and are not terrorists. The Uighurs are a minority group of Chinese citizens. The govt is trying to stamp them out of existence. Maybe they fought back? Wonder if that’s how they got to be terrorists?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The attack on Gaza during Hanukka was long overdue, Cindy. A steady barrage of rockets fell on Jewish towns and villages from 2001 unti 2008. The appropriate response would have been either starving the population into submission or driving them out of Gaza and letting the damned Egyptians and Bedouin in the Sinai take care of them. Than is how one secures borders against those who make war against you. Yeah, it’s not nice, but the fire bombing of Dresden was also not nice, and just as necessary.

    Terrorism kills and the Arabs have been playing terrorist against our people and a traitorous Jerusalem regime has been letting them, even aiding and abetting their efforts when it suited them – as it did numerous times.

    As I told you, your ignorance of trhe facts on the ground here makes your article and your defense of these assholes trying to undermine the State look stupid, and makes the site look stupid.

    So, read and learn.

    The government of Israel cut all sorts of deals with el-FataH because the el-FataH strategy is loot the enemy first, and then kill them. So Arafat and his henchmen built a casino in Jericho, with the help of the late unlamented Yossi Ginossar, so that Israelis would drive east from Tel Aviv and spend their hard earned shekels on fixed games. LOOT The Israeli government turned a blind eye while el-FataH stole the Arab residents of Gaza and Judea and Samaria blind. LOOT In return, the government in Jerusalem wanted to demoralize the Jews who lived beyond the Green Line, in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. So the Shabak fed Arabs the locations of Jews to be killed. The murder of ShalHevet Pass, an infant in her father’s hands, the murder of Rav Binyanmin Kahane and his wife, killed while not one bullet touched the four children in the vehicle, the murder of Mrs. Hatuel and her children as they drove from Gaza in 2004, all were done by Arab marksmen trained by the Americans, the CIA.

    But the Arabs got disgusted with the corruption of el-FataH if not with their bloodthirst, and chose Hamas – whose strategy is to loot first and then kill. That means no deals with Israelis – just war.

    The Israeli government has been unable to cut deals with Hamas. So they wish to eliminate them and restore el-Fatah to full power, resume making money with corrupt deals, and resume demoralizing the residents of Judea and Samaria with Arab marksmen accomplishing murder hits with the help of the Shabak.

    Those are the facts on the ground, Cindy.

    But you don’t give a damn about savages who tear apart children bone by bone if they are Jews, like what happened to Kobi Mandell in 2000. You don’t give a damn if Jews die, only if NGO’s or goyim die. I have yet to see you complain or protest over the murder of Jews at all – only Arabs – “the people”. We’ll see if you give a damn for the facts – the ugly painful facts – or if you just dismiss them like so many other arrogant members of the infantile left do.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Your determined efforts to misrepresent the views of other people is staggering, Ruvy.

    You say “But you don’t give a damn about savages who tear apart children bone by bone if they are Jews, like what happened to Kobi Mandell in 2000. You don’t give a damn if Jews die, only if NGO’s or goyim die. I have yet to see you complain or protest over the murder of Jews at all – only Arabs – “the people”. We’ll see if you give a damn for the facts – the ugly painful facts – or if you just dismiss them like so many other arrogant members of the infantile left do.”

    However Cindy has already said “I have no interest in supporting Israel in its insane actions. I have no interest in supporting Hamas in its insane actions.”

    And also “I don’t choose one group over another. I choose all innocent people–they all go in one group. All innocent people should stand up for each other. They will be the ones who are the victims of the terrorists on both sides.”

    This mental myopia is a huge contributing factor to the ongoing problems in the Middle East. It’s not a phenomenon that is unique to you or your side of the argument, but it is absolutely making any rational discussion and any sense of hope or progress that much more difficult than needs be.

  • Jeff

    Cindy/Roger, do you rant this much against the millions we’ve killed in Iraq? I guess that’s OK according to you cause we’re promoting democracy. Israel is ONLY democracy in middle east, why are you against a UN formed democratic country but FOR arab regimes with kings that abuse human rights and kill more arabs then anyone else on the planet? After all the tough talk, none of the arab countries help Gaza, they don’t want them either. Gaza is run by terrorists, the same reason we’re in Afghanistan. Where’s the outcry against North Korea, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Somalia etc and their abuse against their entire populations….easy to just be anti-semitic and be pro-terrorist like it’s romantic Castro days. Israel wants and flourishes with peace, period, the others do not.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I haven’t read this whole thread yet – soon will. I’m amazed, however, at the hostility this article has generated thus, even from such usually cool heads as Mr. Nalle. Which leads to only one possible conclusion: Either the author of the article has willfully or inadvertently misrepresented the fact of the case, or the objectors are far more insane than I ever gave them credit for.

    So first, was this a case for humanitarian aid or was it not?
    Was the aid authorized by the US or was it a “pirate operation”?
    Are the people in Gaza in need of humanitarian help?

    Then what the hell does it matter who the aid workers are unless there are reasons to believe the purpose of the mission was terrorism?

    And what’s wrong with the damn title “Israel abducts.” Fuck Israel if it acts like it does and all who defend her. To say that this article ought to feature on some neo-Nazi site (as in #20) – sorry, Ruvy, can’t let that one go – is just plain ignorant and stupid.

    So unless I’ve been mislead as to the facts of the case, I’m quickly coming to the conclusion that whatever reasonableness one could attribute to conservative thought on BC is all but gone – and we’re barely six months into the new administration.

    Care to think how ossified your brains will be by the time the Dems pull another victory in 2010 and 2012?

    Oh, I understand it now. Perhaps it’s just an adverse reaction to Al Franken’s victory yesterday, making the Senate filibuster-proof. Makes perfect sense, boys.

  • Jeff

    Cindy:”What do you call a govt that bombs a civilian population that is defenseless? That has no aircraft? No nothing?” I call it Iraq & Afghanistan.

    With your logic, if Israel is terrorist and then so is USA.

    If we stop a ship from North Korea or Iran it’s the same thing, a security issue. Palestinians (made up word) have had many many many chances over the years for peace but since it’s a business for Hamas & Hezbollah they torpedo it every time. Isreal has shown great restraint over the years but enough is enough sometimes.

  • Jeff

    Israel did not “abduct” them. I guess everyone in Gitmo & Iran is “abducted” too. The Israeli soldiers they hold hostage were abducted after killing many of them to do it. This was a clear basic pirate operation knowing and wanting to be in the media and to aid terrorists was their only purpose.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #51

    “Cindy/Roger, do you rant this much against the millions we’ve killed in Iraq?”

    I’m not going to call you the name I ought to call you, because it’d be deleted. Number one, there was no rant here. The rant came from you, and if you can’t tell a difference, take a refresher course.

    Second, I’ve never supported the Iraqi experiment (and I’m sure Cindy didn’t either).

    And what has this got to do with humanitarian aid?

    Next time, address me personally if you have something to say. I don’t respond to multiple addresses.

  • mark

    Good one, Cindy.

    Too bad the “medical supplies, children’s toys, and reconstruction kits” didn’t get through.

    (Ruvy, if you’re concerned about how the site looks, then you should consider how your obscene racist ranting comes across.)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Good article!
    I’ll bake cookies for you..:)

    I wanted to bring this excerpt to the attention of Jeff, #53 What about the 11,000 Palestinians who languish in jail, many of them tortured. We will update you on the status of our kidnapped passengers and our impounded boat, but who will do the same for the Palestinians and their boats?

    We will insist that Israel stop interfering with our voyages to Gaza, since they do not have the right; legal or moral, to enforce a siege that collectively punishes 1.5 million Palestinians.

    #53 I hardly think you can say that these people are all made up…

    Who were we to take their homes and land to begin with!

  • Jeff

    Ms. McKinney, I’m sorry, just expressing my opinon as did you all. Sorry you took it personally and that you want to call me a name, I can guess what it is obviously. You can be called something as well. But I won’t, I promote civilized countries.
    I’m not sure what this has to do with humanitarian aid, it was about the so called “abduction”. She should worry about bringing aid to the poor starving kids in the US first.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    We should not have poor starving children in this country!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Nobody cares, Jeff, about your opinion about Ms. McKinney. You’re free to your opinion, and so is everybody else. But notice your first response to the article:

    “Cynthia McKinney is a total nutjob! How come there’s no outcry from those wackos to release the hostages the Hamas TERRORISTS and MURDERERS still hold captive?” (#3)

    You made the connection and therefore thought that by making this connection you’ve somehow managed to discredit the validity of the article and the points it made.

    It was to this and nothing else that I responded.

  • Jeff

    Fair enough I guess. Thanks for repeating my comments as I stand by that response strongly and not sure what validity the article actually has. They were supposedly bringing aid to terrorists when they were warned not to, they were taken into custody not abducted after failing to respond. Seems clear to me. And wouldn’t even be in the news if not for that USA discredited nut. McKinney’s mental state IS part of their validity when considering the source. Yes, Jeannie we should not have starving people in our own country nor should Darfur, Somalia, North Korea etc. Gaza is last on my list to aid.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Finally some coverage of the event:

    1

    2

    3

    The whole issue seems to turn around the legality or the illegality of the Gaza blockade.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Jeff, the story is that they were supposedly authorized to do so by the administration. I don’t know what the precise facts are.

  • Jeff

    Says who? I don’t see that anywhere. Just a mention for their creative argument that President Obama just told Israel to let in humanitarian and reconstruction supplies. That doesn’t mean any self absorbed wacko can take a ship any time anywhere. There are rules and regulations like crossing border with Mexico and dealing with Cuba. has to be done through proper channels not when they feel like it to stir up & become the news. Why didn’t she clear it with Israel first if she truly cared about her humanitarian goal? Self serving to make news.

  • Jeff

    and when, why, how does US admin have authority to authorize her boat in Gaza? c,mon

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What’s your real beef, Jeff? What do you really object to? As far as I’m concerned, you failed to articulate it. Perhaps if you were to do so, I might get to understand your position because as of now, all I hear is objections.

    What is it that really bugs you about it, Jeff?

  • Jeff

    Thought I articluated it very clearly. You said they were supposedly authorized and I expressed that they were not.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Apart from the facts of the matter, Jeff – and I don’t know what they are – that’s still a rather narrow view and it doesn’t say much about the nature of your objection, deep down, that is. I stated what I regard as points of contention in #52.

    Would you care to address them?

  • Clavos

    Ruvy,

    As I have pointed out, the author’s complete ignorance of the motives of the players here makes this article look stupid. Frankly any highlighting of it makes the site look like an Arab agit-prop outfit.

    WHOA, Ruvy.

    I “highlighted” the article. If I were interested in presenting Arab “agit-prop” believe me, I would be a lot more proactive and efficient about it than simply featuring this article.

    As you know from my comments over the years, I am strongly pro-Israel.

    Not that my reasons are your or anyone else’s (except for senior editorial management’s) business, but I featured the article for two reasons: it is timely (exceptionally so, as BC articles go; Cindy beat most of the major outlets on this one), and I knew it would draw a lot of traffic and discussion.

    End of story.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    According to the quote in the article from Congresswoman McKinney, President Obama just told Israel to let in humanitarian and reconstruction supplies. . . (emphasis added).

    What right does the United States Government have to “tell” Israel to do that? The same “right” it has to “tell” Israel to abandon Jewish settlements? The same right it has to “tell” Honduras to reinstall a properly deposed president?

    Those wicked Israelis and Hondurans seem not to be obeying orders from the United States Government. Damn! And, of course, the pleasant chaps running the theocracy in Iran seem to be ignoring the request that they stop killing protesters. Oh well. That’s different. I guess.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Scary though it is, Ralph and Ruvy’s last two comments actually make a great deal of sense.

    And Zing, I certainly find Israel’s attacks on civilians in Gaza unacceptable. Of course, they hit civilians mainly because Hamas hides in or near civilian targets to create the maximum possible negative impact for whatever Israel does against them. So some blame attaches to Hamas.

    As for McKinney and company, sure their cargo was innocent. That doesn’t mean that they were innocent. As Cannon pointed out the purpose of their visit was to be provocative, to generate a response from Israel and get press as a result. They aren’t going to be summarily executed or even mistreated. They’ll get sent home and they’ll get to complain a lot in the press and that will do more for the innocent in Gaza than the toys and food, and that was their intent.

    The real point is that this is a non-story, I suppose.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And BTW, stop calling McKinney a “presidential candidate.” Her role as candidate of the Socialist Party was far less significant than her years as a Congresswoman. Anyone can run for president. Doesn’t mean we should take them seriously. She came in 6th behind Chuck Baldwin of the Put Women in the Kitchen in a Gingham Frock Party. If we had a parliamentary system her party would have needed 20 times as many votes as she got to win a single seat in Congress.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “They aren’t going to be summarily executed or even mistreated.”

    Are you suggesting, Dave, that perhaps they ought to be?

    As to Dan’s comment, namely, “what right does the United States Government have to “tell” Israel to do that?” The right of a patron. Besides, there’s a bigger issue at state – peace in the region, which transcends the rather narrow conception on the part of Israel as to how it’s to be achieved.

    It all depends, of course, on how one regards Israel’s part in the conflict. If one happens to think Israel can do no wrong, the conclusions follow.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Are you suggesting, Dave, that perhaps they ought to be?

    Well, that would certainly add more substance to the story than their currently is, but no. Cynthia McKinney deserves to live a long and failure-filled life. My point is that the Israelis aren’t behaving barbarically in this instance despite the alarmism in this article.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, the whole question then turns, as I’ve already stated up the thread, on the legality of the Gaza blockade.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    71 – Of course, they hit civilians mainly because Hamas hides in or near civilian targets to create the maximum possible negative impact for whatever Israel does against them. So some blame attaches to Hamas.

    And if I show you evidence that this is not so, what then? And if the evidence is not from a human rights group, but from a US military study? Then what will you say?

    I will come back later with that evidence.

    (Be clear here that I am not defending Hamas. I am dispelling the propaganda that is drunk up by anyone who doesn’t look any further than the popular press. Looking no further than that, you may as well get your opinions about life from Calvin Klein.)

  • Melissa Clifford

    This is incomprehensible … and I’m so glad it happened. Perhaps this will be the action that will finally allow people to see that the Israeli government’s actions towards Palestinians and other Muslim communities is CRAZY and they need to STOP. Those who care about the rights and future of Jews and Muslims alike need to speak up and stand against what the Israeli government it doing.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeff,

    …do you rant this much against the millions we’ve killed in Iraq?

    Yes, of course.

    With your logic, if Israel is terrorist and then so is USA.

    Yes! That’s exactly my opinion. The United States govt are terrorists. You’re incredulous, but you really are following what I’m saying.

    I guess everyone in Gitmo & Iran is “abducted” too.

    I think my views are pretty straightforward and simple. Yet the idea of govt legitimacy is so burned into the collective unconscious, that people just don’t get it. But you do get it Jeff. You are largely on the money. So, yup to this one too.

    I promote civilized countries. I’m not sure what this has to do with humanitarian aid, it was about the so called “abduction”. She should worry about bringing aid to the poor starving kids in the US first.

    Civilized countries? Why do civilized countries have poor starving children? Sounds very uncivilized to me and unnecessary.

  • AfricanCampaign

    Innocent people need humanitarian aid.

  • http://www.zmag.org/zspace/alicedubiel Alice Dubiel

    I am grateful for your writing a concise report of the “Spriit of Humanity” action and arrests, and agree about the lack of coverage in msm on anti blockade in Gaza actions. Let’s keep up pressure for better and more inclusive news.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Nice comment, Alice. I see you share Z Space with Cindy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I see that Cindy has not seen fit to respond at all to the facts I laid out for her.

    It appears that the infantile left in the world is so busy whining over the “crime” that a Jew dares defend his homeland that it is too busy to pay attention to reality: the reality that Dov Weisglass, Ariel Sharon’s personal advisor was also attorney for – wait for it – Yassir Arafat. Hey dudes! Anybody got a clue why the lawyer representing one side in a war is also representing the other?

    The reality on the ground here is that the Izraeli government can cut deals with FataH because FataH believes in looting first and killing later, while Hamas believes in killing the Jews and looting them later when they are dead. In practical terms of dealing with Israel, that is the only thing that separates them!

    The infantile left is so busy going hurrah over the new “Che Gurevarras” in the Middle East, that they have not time for the realities of the ground that “Palestine” is nothing more than a cash cow for the terrorists these fools dress up as “liberation fighters” in their fevered imagination. They ignore the way the Moslems in the “Palestinian Authority” have systematically raped the Christian Arab community under their control (even the Vatican’s jaws are so dripping wet for control of Mt. Zion that they don’t care about Arab Christians or even about the alleged birthplace of Jesus, the Church of the Sepulchre – unless a Jew desecrates it).

    The idiots on the infantile left and their running dogs are such hypocrites and racists that they surpass the trailer trash in the States with their stupidity! It is absolutely disgusting!

    Anmd that is what has aroused my anger here. There comes a point when the double-standards, Jew-hatred, lies and bullshit in the media get absolutely intolerable – and the bullshit that ther fools who believe this crap put out is absolutely intolerable. That goes for all of the commenters who are whining about the minimal actions the government of Israel has taken to protect the Jewish population of this country. That a child of mine should be forced to serve in the army of such a regime of traitors is also intolerable.

    This is worse than the situation that thousands of Americans who realized that the USA was frittering away blood and money in ‘Nam was. At least ‘Nam was 10,000 miles away. The killers in the blzack pajamas were not going to attack Avenue J and East 12th Street in Brooklyn! The Arabs who want to kill us – and their kapo collaborators on government hill in Jerusalem are just a few miles away at most – and can kill me any damned time they please as well because I dare write about their murder, theft and hypocrisy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    For those of you who actually give a damn about truth, you can go to Nakim Israel Reality, where you will see some of the data I have written up for you in comment #82.

    However, the analysis of the differences between Hamas and el-FataH was my own, confirmed in conversations with a Chinese journalist who called them (el-FataH and Hamas) nothing but warlords. The Chinese are all too experienced in dealing with warlords, and understand what westerners cannot see.

    When you are ready to admit that there is a lot more here than you ever understood, Cindy, we can talk. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Just remember, I’m the one who knows what goes down here because unlike ALL of the rest of you commenting as if you really know what is going on, I LIVE HERE IN ISRAEL. It is no surprise to me that Dave Nalle, who grew up in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria, admits that I’m making sense. That is because he still remembers this place, and while his sympathies tend to be with the Arabs, he understands what I’m talking about.

  • zingzing

    so what goes on in palestine, ruvy?

  • Jeff

    ruvy, ruvy, ruvy

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Yeah, Jeff?

  • Lumpy

    Not giving mckinney and her mob of socialist nuts any press coverage is exactly the right response to her grandstanding. Give her the obscurity she deserves.

  • Jeff

    Sorry Ruvy, that was my way to lighten things up with reference to the movie Rudy. Was cheering you on and agreeing with you.

  • Jeff

    right on Lumpy

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I am considering how to respond to you. The site you posted at 83 looks like the Israeli version of a conspiracy theorist site. This is my impression. I am not versed in arguing conspiracy theory with Pablo. Arguing it through the context of foreign conspiracy theory is a project I have to decline.

    I doubt a heated battle between us would be beneficial to either of us anyway. If I feel anything I might put here will be of use to someone other than your or me, I will.

    I purchased tickets to see My Name is Rachel Corrie. The production was pressured to shut down. Part of the Jewish community supported censorship and part opposed censorship; what would you do? Support its being allowed or censor it? Or is that a moot point by now? I read it is being performed in Israel now? Is that right?

    I would like to say that I spent about an hour looking for a video I saw in 2007. It was one where the wall was to cut off the Palestinian access to needed water. The settlers supported and defended their Palestinian neighbors. They worked with them to assure their access to needed water.

    I am saddened that I cannot find it, even though I have looked from time to time. It was the solitary video I have seen showing such cooperation. It has been lost in an engulfing sea of hostility and racism. It was the needed response and the answer to insanity and hatred. I’ll keep looking.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    So, you are still dabbling with the garbage the Arab agit-prop machine puts out? Rachel Corrie?

    Please.

    The site I sent you to is not a conspiracy site. I could have sent you to one, and chose not to, even though I know the facts of the matters discussed there. You have enough trouble dealing with the home-grown stuff.

    The site I sent you to documents high level corruption at all levels of the government of Israel, with an awful lot of it sponsored in one way or another by the American gov’t.

    Oh, by the way, Israel National News possibly scooped you. But the story wan’t worth it to me to write. Just another stunt by another series of useful idiots who think they know what is going on here, and who pontificate from foreign shores telling us what to do. Trash from trash talking scum, in other words.

    It’s simple Cindy. I know what goes down here and you don’t. If you really understood, it would disgust you, as it disgusts me.

    You don’t.

  • zingzing

    i think this article pretty much registers disgust with what’s going on there…

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Oh I found out what big O’s response was to McKinney. She apparently sent him e-mails detailing her plans and the only response she got back was a father’s day email greeting. (lost the page)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    So what is your answer about Rachel Corrie? You would censor it or support free speech. Does a young woman get to have her thoughts heard about her experience in Israel/Palestine?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Big C,

    Thank you for #50, I was wondering if anyone was actually reading what I was saying or just responding to themselves? lol

    “Some women should be shoved into a kitchen and told to bake cookies…”

    The truth pops out. And some said it was all history and all equality!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeannie,

    I wanted you to know that facebook just came up with my professor for the only class I ever took at Montclair State University as a suggestion for a friend. The only trouble is, I don’t use my real name on facebook. I never said I went to MSU there. I don’t even use the same e-mail address as when I was at MSU. Pretty weird right?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I somehow knew you would drag Rachel Corrie into this somehow. I could feel it in my bones when reading the fiorst paragraphs of your article.

    Rachel Corrie was a stupid mall rat who got involved in a fight that she should have stayed out of and turned herself into the ultimate useful idiot – a dead one.

    Now pay attention, Cindy. I know what it is to lose a child, so I have a certain amount of sympathy for her parents. But that sympathy for them is mitigated by the fact that her parents were unable to impart solid values to their daughter, and have taken up her role as useless idiots themselves.

    As for us in Israel, we have laws that forbid incitement to sedition, and allowing a “free” expression of her thoughts would be just that under Israeli law – incitement to sedition.

    Given that the leftist shits have used this on us extensively, shutting down radio stations, holding children incommunicado in jail, etc. etc., it is time for a little balance. Let the stupid mall rat be heard amoung her heroes, Arab terrorists, and let her words not contaminate healthy Jewish minds.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The “Israelis are Nazis” crowd in America have many many times shut out pro-Israel speakers in the States, effectively shutting down freedom of expression there. So, it the Jewish community was able to shut up the words of the dead mall rat, that is fine with me. Again, a little balance is in order. I do hope your money was refunded you, though.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Silas is on BlogTalkRadio tonight at 11pm EST.

  • zingzing

    i’m really starting to hate the term “useful idiot.” how many times has been uttered over the last few days? it’s like an internet meme or something. wow. the spellchecker doesn’t know meme. meme, meme, meme. good spellchecker.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    That’s tomorrow night, Cindy. Thanks so much for the plug!

  • Clavos

    wow. the spellchecker doesn’t know meme. meme, meme, meme. good spellchecker.

    Not surprising, since it’s originally a technical term from biology, now widely misused as this year’s fashionable jargon.

    From the Compact Oxford English Dictionary:

    meme

    /meem/

    • noun Biology an element of behaviour or culture passed on by imitation or other non-genetic means.

    — DERIVATIVES memetic adjective.

    — ORIGIN Greek mimema ‘that which is imitated’, on the pattern of gene.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    mimesis is a better known term.

  • zingzing

    and clavos, grammar marm (spellchecker don’t know “marm” either), makes her inglorious return! what a nice frock that is, ms. clavos.

    funny, as the term “useful idiot” was once used by our nation’s enemies, and is now used almost exclusively by those within the common culture as a political tool.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Quite right, zing:

    “Lenin
    The term is commonly attributed to Vladimir Lenin, sometimes in the form “useful idiots of the West”, to describe those Western reporters and travelers who would endorse the Soviet Union and its policies in the West. However, no reference to a communist sympathizer or political leftist as a “useful idiot” was made in the USA until 1948, and not until decades later would the use of the phrase by Lenin be commented on in the west. In 1948, the phrase was used in a New York Times article in relation to Italian politics; it was mentioned again in 1961. Critics of the term assert that the expression “useful idiot” has never been discovered in any published document of Lenin’s, nor that anyone has claimed to have heard him say it. In the spring of 1987, Grant Harris, senior reference librarian at the Library of Congress, said “We have not been able to identify this phrase [useful idiots of the West] among [Lenin’s]” published works.”[1][2].

    Another another:

    “In political jargon, the term useful idiot was used to describe Soviet sympathizers in western countries and the attitude of the Soviet government towards them. The implication was that though the person in question naïvely thought themselves an ally of the Soviets or other Communists, they were actually held in contempt by them, and being cynically used.
    The term is now used more broadly to describe someone who is perceived to be manipulated by a political movement, terrorist group, hostile government, or business, whether or not the group is Communist in nature.”

    So is Ruvy on-target or is he not?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    LMAO Silas…exuberant and enthusiastic, I am. Missing the date comes from staying up or getting up all hours. Restlessness. Something to be said for it though…the bullfrogs bellowing to each other on the lake and the cacophony of twittering birds at dawn. I really am so amazed at the sheer noise of it! And the unrelenting poetry writing, which comes much easier to me than articles. It’s not so bad having spells of restlessness in life, I think.

    p.s. I’ll plug you again tomorrow. :-)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    this year’s fashionable jargon

    Invent yourself. No matter how cool, chic and hip fashion slaves seem, I always tend to feel sorrow when gazing upon their greatness. They’re beautiful and hollow. Shallow. Reverberating with the sound of sadness.

  • zingzing

    “So is Ruvy on-target or is he not?”

    well, it’s better when the term comes from our enemies rather than our friends.

    you figure that out.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In that case, who is an enemy and who is a friend? Kind of hard to tell in the present case. And with friends like that, who needs enemies?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I need a fucking idea for a novel to get away from this politics bullshit. When I started my weblog in April, 2008 (when Hillary was running), it was supposed to be a temporary gig.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    A 5000 year old city is found intact under the ice in Antarctica, left there after the axis of the earth shifted and flooded the continent and then froze it over.

    Now a strange signal has begun transmitting as the ice melts from atop strangely designed solar cells…

    How’s that Roger?
    And that’s just off the top of my head…

  • Clavos

    You ngot some weird shit on top of your head, Jet.

    How did it get there?

    A tiny flying saucer from Alpha Centauri landed one night on what its crew thought was a tiny spaceport in Columbus, Ohio.

    Unbeknownst to the crew, their GPS batteries had died three years before, as picked their way through the Crab Nebula in search of a cast off pair of Britney Spears’ panties, said to be in orbit around a small asteroid in its outer reaches. The asteroid, known to veteran space travelers as…

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I like it Jet. But only if someone reads it to me. Put it on a tape or sumpthin.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Roger sounded desparate for an idea, so I threw one out. He probably won’t share the royalties with me when it’s published and made into a movie staring Clavos as the alien captian…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    …however it is interesting that Clavos mentioned crabs and Britany’s panties in the same sentence…

  • Clavos

    It just sort of sprang out?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I only see one problem with Jet’s story. Who hears this? I mean okay, ‘the continent’ floods over (sounds poetic) but which one? and is anyone else alive after the axis of the earth shifts?

    Calv,

    There are too many problems with your story to help you babe*. :-)

    *is that sexist if women do it???

  • Clavos

    Um, Cindy, you’re the one with problems. The continent, obviously is Antarctica.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    calv = you know who (of course)

    sorry, I’m playing poker…and unless Dave comes along I’ll win this time.

  • Clavos

    *is that sexist if women do it???

    I dunno, babe. :>) (Note nose)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    ROFL! :-)

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Cindy, there is ice core evidence that theorizes that at one time Antarctica was on or near the equator, and that millions of years ago the earth’s rotational axis shifted throwing what were the icecaps onto the equator, at which time they melted, cooling the oceans enough to freeze Earth over completely, when it finally did melt, we were left with the oceans we have today and a completely dead Antarctic.

    That’s not fiction…

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    okay, i will buy that, it’s the part about ‘someone’ hearing the sounds of it that i don’t get.

    okay so where does the someone live?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy is on-target.

    Moreover [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] the author of this little agit-prop piece for the Arabs (now old news not worth highlighting), still supports a regime that believes in apartheid, banning Jews from buying land in its territories on penalty of death, and so hateful of them that even their graves in Gaza had to be expelled.

    It’s always good to know that the liberal fascists of the infantile left (who call themselves “anarchists”) believe in and support exactly the same kinds of regimes they claim to detest.

    The “Palestine” that she would support beleives in massacring all the Jews in Israel, abuses and rapes Christians, would kill homosexuals, repress women, kill them if they stained the “family honor” (the guys whose semen did the actual staining would get off scot-free), mutilate womens’ genitals as a matter of course (with a bunch of women ganging up on this poor girl, spreading her legs, while someone clips out her clitoris and who knows how much of her vulva, just like they do in Egypt).

    I haven’t gotten to how one clan abuses another yet!

    Yep! These Arabs are the angels – and the Israelis are the Nazis. Poor poor Palestinians! Poor victims! This is what the stupid mall rat, Rachel Corrie (a heroine of the liberal fascists) believed in too. It’s a crime against humanity to suppress her wisdom.

    What a crock of shit!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Not sure if anyone has already mentioned the following, which adds a twist to the story if true:
    “Israel is expected to deport McKinney and her group shortly, and promised to deliver, to Gaza, all of the humanitarian aid that was on their boat — by land.”

    Israel says other NGOs have been delivering aid to Gaza by land, which doesn’t conflict with the naval blockade.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Now, Jet, hopefully that Cindy got the Hint and is off cleaning a litter box, would you care to tell us more about Antarctica again? If the poles shift (as they appear to be doing as we type these pixels onto the screen) Antarctica may be closer to the equator again, and Israel closer to the poles. That would result in a land that will be more lush with more water, but a country that will not as easily produce wine.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Ruvy, if that true, you better make friends with a bunch of jewish eskimos!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    And in yet another interesting twist, we find that the blockade of the sea at Gaza has resulted in the collapse of fishing as a means of livelihood for Palestinians. They used to be able to go out 20 miles then it was down to three miles or they would be shot and killed. Now reports are they are shot and killed even within the 3 mile allowance.

    It’s important to understand that part of the reason for going by sea is to directly defy the blockade? Not only to defy it but to bring attention to the problems in Gaza. You know, lest the people who like govts just get bored with so little bloodshed and go back to watching some reality show. Apparently there is some sort of shortage of reality in the real world, gotta watch it on TV, these days.

  • zingzing

    ruvy. catch phrases like “useful idiot” and “cleaning her litter box” are annoying. you sound like an old man enamored with something he finds clever.

    that said, i had an israeli wine once, it was a dry white with a label that was mostly white with blue lettering and design. the design was either a bird or a boat… something nautical. damn thing was good. i’ve been looking for it ever since.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Roger,

    How about a story of a lovely lady who was bringing up three very lovely girls. All of them had hair of gold – like their mother – the youngest one in curlz….

    Oh, never mind, that’s been done…

    OK, how’s this one…

    A scientist researching the use of nanotechnology in stimulating the brain, uncovers a way to communicate directly with the brain. The scientist dies, but in his will he requests that his laboratory take his brain immediately after death and place it in a solution which feeds it oxygen. The premise is that the scientist wants to know if there is a way to communicate with a brain after death. The researchers begin their experiment and voila! They are communicating with the scientist. What follows is a mysterious ride into spirituality, life after death and what’s in store for the Earth. I gave you the platform, you decide the outcome.

    P.S. Roger, if you write it and it is a success I want 15% royalties even after I’m dead. Of that 15% I will give 25% to Blogcritics.org.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy, if that true, you better make friends with a bunch of jewish eskimos!

    Wrong, Jet. Guys like me (from Minnesota) – as well as the thousands of Russian Jews fron the north of the country (Russia) ARE the Jewish Eskimos.

    We’re the ones who konow how to dress in sub-zero weather, how to keep a car from fistailing on the ice or snow, and we’re the ones who actually know how to shovel snow (watching a native born Israeli, Arab or Jew, shovelling snow is more fun than watching a barrel of monkeys). We are the ones who understand how to insulate a house, how to keep pipes from freezing in temps below -17C (0 F), etc. etc.

    Heck, I could make a fortune here as a ya’tz hakr, someone who sat on his ass giving out advice as a consultant to the folks here who know nothing about surviving in the cold.

    And in yet another interesting twist, we find that the blockade of the sea at Gaza has resulted in the collapse of fishing as a means of livelihood for Palestinians

    Getting back to topic here, we see that Cindy is still pumping the gas for the Jew-hating, Hitler-worshiping, homosexual-killing, woman-abusing “vitims of the Naqba”. What Cindy has not mentioned [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] is that the blockade exists to keep Arabs from stocking up on arms to kill Jews. She ignores the fact that the Jewish towns and villages in Gush Qatif were under bombardment for five years and that the Israeli towns and kibbutzim neighboring Gaza were under bombardment for 8 years.

    Keep pumping that Arab gas, Cindy! Way to go! Maybe the Arabs will toss you a fish if you’re a good girl!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I’m not your poor wife or your poor dog or whomever else you like to shove around. I thought we were done. I treated you respectfully, despite that you are raging on like a crazed, hateful, racist, sexist, extremist, censor. You seem very much, now, like some of the Israeli settlers in the videos below.

    Gaza: The Killing Zone – Israel/Palestine

    The Real of Jewish settlers in Hebron And West bank (1) (2:08)
    The Real of Jewish settlers in Hebron And West bank (2) (5:20)
    The Real of Jewish settlers in Hebron And West bank (3) (6:42)
    The Real of Jewish settlers in Hebron And West bank (4) (3:20)

    Try to erase all of youtube Ruvy. There are thousands and thousands of videos of racist extremists, like yourself, abusing Palestinians. Women, men, and children acting like animals toward other human beings. This is what is wrong with religion Ruvy–what you and people like you are doing with it.

    I’ll post what I wrote up at the office tomorrow. I thought better of it then. But perhaps someone will become aware of what is really happening by witnessing both your vile posts and the videos.

  • Annie

    Don’t worry. The mass media and the neocons will portray anyone who complains about this illegal action is “anti-Semtitic.” Just read Little Green Footballs for an example of how this is spun.

  • Annie

    “Cynthia McKinney is a total nutjob!”

    Agreed. And? This is still an oppressive action by Israel.

  • Annie

    Ruvy, you are a hateful misogynist.

    And just because “neo-Nazi” websites might report this doesn’t mean this story is somehow tainted. I’m sure communist websites were pleased that Obama won. Does that make Obama a communist? I’m sure Black Nationalist websites were pleased that Obama won. Does that make Obama a Black Nationalist?

    White supremacists dislike Jews, and so they probably make mention of news stories like this one. But that doesn’t mean everyone who thinks this is newsworthy is a White supremacist.

    Logical fallacies like attacking the messenger and guilt by association need to be called out for what they are. If you think it’s fine that Israel imprisons people who are trying to send aid to poor people in Gaza, then defend it. Don’t be a coward and just imply that they are all evil Nazis. That’s disgusting.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Dave: “…despite the alarmism in this article.”

    So that explains why the irony alarm signaled.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy, you are a hateful misogynist.

    Annie you do not know jack shit about me. When a group of women in Minnesota wanted to stop health incurance companies from discriminating against them because they had contracted genital cancers because their mothers had taken Diethylstilbestrol (DES) to “ease the pregnancy”, I researched the legislation needed to correct the situation, helped lobby the legislators in Minnesota so that they would pass the bill, and saw to it that the Minnesota commissioner of commerce would interpret the law (once the bill was signed) in a way favorable to the women involved.

    Misogynists don’t do that, Annie. They look at such women and act as though they are damaged goods, and walk away. I’m not a lawyer. I do have some legal knowledge, and used that knowledge for the benefit of these women – and I did it for free – because I could, and it was the right thing to do.

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    There are thousands and thousands of videos of racist extremists, like yourself, abusing Palestinians. Women, men, and children acting like animals toward other human beings.

    If the Israelis were acting as “animals” the assholes from the leftist organizations making the videos would be dead – like Kobi Mandell is dead, like ShalHevet Pass is dead. What you do not realize is that the Arab media is controlled by the terrorists and the western reporters know not to slam them or report the truth about them – because their own lives are on the line.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    The point, Cindy is that we Jews do not go out to kill and massacre Arabs. We should, to teach the SOB’s the lesson that Jewish blood is not cheap – but we don’t.

    The Arabs in Hebron, by contrast did massacre Jews, hundreds of them, and the British did nothing to help the Jews under attack. They did not jail the man who incited the massacre.

    Eventually, in the 1990’s when the handover of Hebron to the Arabs was not going smoothly, the Shabak, set up a Jew in Hebron in the Cave of the Pattriarchs, they massacred a bunxh of Arabs, left, and locked this Jew in the Cave, so the Arabs would kill him. Then the Shabak blamed Dr. Baruch Goldberg, z”l. hy”d, and Bibi Netanyahu had his excuse to hand over Hebron to Arab control – setting up the tense situation that exists today, and that allows leftists to go in and exploit.

    Tose are the facts. Youtube doesn’t tell you facts, it gives you raw video, and the fellow behind the camera can edit that video to his pleasure.

    Since you are not here, you have no access to facts. You have only access to agitprop, so you pick what you like [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

  • Annie

    Your possibly apocryphal bragging doesn’t change the fact that you’ve written highly misogynist things here.

    But I don’t care. Hate women if you want. Hate black women. Hate black female Democrats. Hate all non-Jews. Hate whomever you like.

    None of that changes the fact that Israel is a militarily aggressive country whose leaders hate Arab Muslims and engage in extreme actions against peaceful people hoping to send aid to poor Palestinians.

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Now you’ve called me a liar as well as a misogynist. So. let’s lay the cards on the table, lady. I don’t hate you. I have contempt for you. There is a difference. Hate indicates some level of caring, and the truth is I do not care whether you live or die. My only reason for commenting on what you say at all is that you allow yourself to be made a fool of by Arab propagandists. The day will come when you will rue that less than intelligent trait in yourself. That day is not today and you are not my problem.

    The same goes for the Jew-hater, McKinney. I do not hate the bitch, I have only contempt for her. She hates me, and she hates people like me. We are Jews and we dare to live, and we are proud of who we are. And that’s why the bitch hates us.

    You evidently haven’t enough sense to recognize a showboat operation when you see one – a dog and pony show. If you had any understanding of politics at all, you would recognize it a mile away. But you don’t, and you swallow all the poisonous garbage the Arabs and their running dogs feed you.

    Your loss, lady. Eventually you will vomit up all this Arab garbage you swallow. For your sake, I hope it is not too late when you do.

    Goodbye.

  • pablo

    [Edited]

    Re 97 Ruvy said:

    “Rachel Corrie was a stupid mall rat who got involved in a fight that she should have stayed out of and turned herself into the ultimate useful idiot – a dead one.”

    That is a very nasty thing to say about a young woman that was mowed over by a bulldozer, and it speaks volumes about the writer in terms of his basic humanity. Whether or not Ruvy likes Ms Corrie’s extremist political posturing with her body for her beliefs, it is extremely unbecoming to utter such nastiness.

    Cynthia McKinney Rocks! Whether it was her directly questioning Rumsfeld about Dynacorp alleged kidnapping rings, or her work with Bev Harris of blackboxvoting.org Cynthia has my respect and admiration.

    Nalle as usual throughout this thread has shown his bias as usual, no surprise there. Just with a wee more bite to it. In either case, it is just that, bias.

  • Jeff

    I see this discussion got heated. After catching I see that Ruvy has explained himself, the facts and details clearly over and over again. But Cindy and Annie don’t seem to absorb or want to believe the truths and history as they ignore the facts and would rather selectively believe untrusted sources [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    If McKinney is a complete lunatic then we’re sexist, if Corrie is fake pawn used as PR then we’re sexist, if we agree with Israeli actions then we’re Apartheid. I know people like this who have no idea what they’re talking about and sit over the computer and get influenced by any “underdog” that comes along. Thay have obviously never ever been to Israel, Gaza, Middle East etc. Take a visit and a tour and then let’s hear your opinion rather then based on youtube.

    Poor poor Gaza terrorists, knock down the wall so they can walk across with bombs attached to their children to kill other children. Have Israel take a security break when surrounded by countries filled with fanatic intolerant killers living in the dark ages who just want to kill Jews who are to blame for all their own problems. Sure. Who would kill a jew on sight in their own country but yet Israel lives with an overwhelming arab population in peace every day who are afforded all rights and civility inside their borders. Israel wants peace, if the cowardly Gaza terrorists would lay down their arms, stop killing farmers, children and women every chance they got, Israel would make peace and they could possibly have their own self-governed territory. But it’s a business to them and don’t know any other way. They are no longer the romanticized generation that at the beginning truly wanted their own state. That was short lived as they were corrupt people as Arafat stole 100s of millions of dollars from his own people he supposedly was fighting for and said no to the best valid offer to become a state they ever got at Camp David because he just wanted to keep his image of a rebel going.

    Remember, tiny Israel’s contributions to the world in every facet of society is untouchable and amazing. From Nobel prizes to inventions to medicine to technology, compared to the muslim arab world it’s laughable and no comparison at all. They just want to read their book and spout hatred and live in the middle ages and send money to Bin Laden.

  • Jeff

    Oh and Pablo, Corrie was a stupid mall rat. What does that have to do with humanity, because she’s dead? Michael Jackson was a pedophile, ooh, don’t say that, he made songs and he’s dead. And if you truly respect McKinney, wow………yikes. Maybe she’ll next bring some fast food to the starving people being killed and held by Mexican drug cartels on her own. Don’t think the US would stop her at the border? She REALLY should just stay in Gaza permanently to put her money where her mouth is. After taking her money, they’d probably rape her, stone her, put a burqa on her and send her on her way. Good samaritan.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Pablo,

    I realize why you would be sensitive to a comment like that. So, let’s clear the air. I also lost a child, as did you, though I didn’t have as much time to love that child as you did yours.

    But my wife has never forgotten the baby she carried, and still senses him from time to time, as a young man, which is what he would be had he lived.

    But if I had found that I had raised a daughter who fell for the garbage that Rachel Corrie fell for, and if I hadn’t done everything I could to correct the obvious errors in judgment she was making, I would feel ashamed of myself as a parent. I would have failed, even in giving her the basic common sense required not to stand in front of a bulldozer for any reason!

    Rachel Corrie was not murdered. She died in an accident that she contributed mightily to. Her manipulation by Arabs who regarded her as just another useful idiot to be used to make propaganda points was criminal and every one of the members of the ISM deserves to be shot. Rachel Corrie’s blood is primarily on their heads.

    She was seduced the way a pimp seduces a mall rat, something I’ve seen many times in Minnesota; only her seduction was not sexual – it was political.

    Have you ever seen the movie, “The Prime of Jean Brody?” Jean Brody, was a teacher, a single woman holding on desperately to her youth, “her prime”, in love with Fascism and in love with the Falangists who had rebelled against the Spanish Republic.

    When she found out that one of the graduates of her class went off to Spain to fight, whe immediately assumed that the student was fighting on the side of the Falangists, and waxed romantic about Francisco Franco, the pig leading them. She told her students wonderful tales of the Falangists and continued on this way until she learned that her student had been killed. And that he had been fighting for the Republic. And she reached a painful realization of how wrong she had been.

    “I’m past my prime”, she whimpered sadly. And that is pretty much where the movie ended.

    At least Jean Brody had a painful realization upon the loss of a student – and let’s face it, a woman like her would regard her students as her “children” even if they weren’t.

    Rachel Corrie’s parents, blinded by their grief, have fallen for the same garbage their daughter fell for. And they have tride to push for their daughter to be seen by the public as a martyr – which she was not.

    A young woman who stands in front of a moving bulldozer on purpose for any reason is not any kind of martyr. She is a fool.
    Teh awful desecration of this young woman by parents so blinded by grief that they refuse to see right from wrong; that they refuse to see their own failures in not teaching their daughter certain basic values is tragic.

    One day, her parents will come to understand the error of their ways, and they will weep bitter, bitter tears, not just of grief, but of regret. They will see the truth, and they will feel the loss all over again. It will take a truly Merciful G-d to comfort them when that day finally arrives.

    I’m telling you this, Pablo, as a father who lost a son before he was born, but who regrets every error he has made with his sons who lived – and who misses the two who didn’t.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeff,

    Thank you for your kind words of support. It is a pleasure to read and to see that some people are possessed of a generous dose of common sense – an uncommon commodity in a world going mad.

    Please do not feel I’m looking a gift horse in the mouth if I tell you that I feel you are being a bit rough with Pablo. A while ago, he submitted a video or a link to an article (I forget which) where he eulogized his daughter, who died a very tragic death. You probably wouldn’t know that.

    This is the reason you see comment #146.

    As for those who call me a racist, a misogynist, a liar – whatever. The world is filled with excellent judges of character, you know….

  • Jeff

    Understood, jumped into the game without knowing everything. Sorry Pablo, didn’t know of your grief and don’t wish that on anyone anywhere. I apologize.
    We should all learn life lessons from the unemotional wisdom and sensibility and open-mindedness of Israelis as Ruvy (I assume you are).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Apart from the facts of the case – and I don’t care anymore, let the whole region go to hell if I care – the kind of vitriol that emanates on this site from the likes of Jeff and yes, you, too, Ruvy, goes beyond bounds.

    So really, folks, I don’t care who’s right and what’s inside your heart – but your very words condemn you. It’s really ironic that the last commenter should close his remark speaking of “unemotional wisdom and sensibility and open-mindedness” – and in the same breath. I’ve had it with this thread.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sorry if the truth offends, Roger. It evidently does not merely offend you, but that will be a separate issue – perhaps dealt with elsewhere.

    Truth is often vitriolic – acidic, eating away at the huge tissue of lies and propanganda that people like you seem unable to break free from at all. And I’ve had it with the double-dealing of the mass media, the phony bullshit, the manipulation, the inherent Jew-hatred, all of which has been reflected in this pathetic agit-prop piece – not to mention the lies and boneheadedness of some commenters here. After a whilew, it is just too much – even for me.

    There are two solutions – one is to walk away with the tail between the legs, and the other is to hit back – hard and repeatedly. I prefer the second solutioo.

    I have a terrible allergy to bullshit and this article activated my allergy from its second word.

    Arab terrorists deserve to die. Those who sympathize with them are useful idiots at best, fools at worst. Sometimes, the fools and useful idiots pay with their lives for their stupidity. Raschel Corrie was one such young lady. I truly feel sorry for her parents, for they have walked the path of evil their daughter followed. A terrible awakening awaits them, one that will tear their souls to bits.

  • Jeff

    Sorry you feel that way Roger. It was obvious you had your position and when you didn’t agree with anyone else’s you always insist we’re missing the facts. Why does our opinion condemn us? Because you don’t agree? But the upstaging publicity hound McKinney is the one who’s correct? The ship was grandstanding actually hoping to be stopped, period. We’ve said something to that effect many times and that we don’t agree with Gaza sympathizers. That is the truth and sorry if it’s too political for you but it is a political story and was used and manipulated that way to benefit the arab world.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Nothing to do with the truth, Ruvy. Truth doesn’t offend me. People do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Forget it, Jeff. There’s no discussion.

  • Jeff

    obviously

  • Jeff

    And honestly, it’s a shame that many people ARE suffering in Gaza (and around the world) and the world does care and want to help and McKinney’s boat is a by-product of the situation. But I just don’t agree that it’s Israel’s responsibility. I feel blame falls on shoulders of Hamas who have led their people to the position their in today without any effort to move forward and progress in modern day society. They still want the destruction of Israel and want their own state neighboring Israel? They hold hostages, they fire rockets etc. Israel and most of the moderate middle east do want peace, they get no joy out of the wars and killings, get no joy out of having mandatory army emlistment, having their own put in harm’s way, but necessary for their own people’s security which is #1. It’s up to Hamas & Hezbollah to stop the suffering in Gaza, to love their own children, who they strap bombs to, more then their hatred for Israel. It’s up to Hamas & Hezbollah to want peace for the sake of their own suffering people.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeff,

    Pay attention to what Roger says. He says “my very words condemn me”. I speak, and it isn’t what he feels is appropriate, so “my very words comdemn me”.

    Jeff, truth is often vitrolic and it often takes vitriol to wash away the bullshit that conventional thinking refuses to countenance. Roger likes to write “think pieces” on various topics. Go read some of them. They are generally well written. But none of them get out of the box of conventional thinking.

    Cindy, the author os this article, also cannot get out of the box. Her box is bounded by the bars of the of the new left paradigms of the “steering committees” that ran college demos four decades ago.

    The trick to out of the box thinking is to get through the bars. She just cannot manage it.

    Let go of the idea of “Israel” or the “Palestinians” or even of “Hamaas” or “el-FataH” being at “fault”.

    The fault, such as fault is to be found, goes beyond organizations and “isms” to the people at the top who hold the guns, hire the goons and make the decisions. Focus on that, make look carefully, and make up your own mind. It will get you a lot farther in understanding what is going on here.

    Thr one who is a really good source is Pablo, whose feelings I hurt, something I regret. He goes in for conspiracy theories. But the point is that he asks lots of hard questions, and the “conspiracies” are often the only set of ideas that can adequately cover the facts.

    That is why I’m very reluctant to dismiss them out of hand, as do so many other people. Anyway, I’m just rambling on here, and I have stuff to do.

    Later!

  • Mark

    …honestly, it’s a shame that many people ARE suffering in Gaza (and around the world)…

    That is the point.

    Fuck Hamas, Hizbollah, the Israeli government, the USA, etc etc. not to mention religions generally.

    Power to the people.

    Now I must get back to writing up the case for nuking Jerusalem, Mecca and Rome.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    It is hard, and probably pointless, to clearly tag all the causes and effects of the current situation, but there are other options open to Israel, the dominant power in that area, than keeping the people in Gaza living in such appalling conditions and blockading both land and sea access.

  • monica

    i find it sad to think of this happening. actually this discussion is sad too. the human rights workers are not saying its ok to kill an Israeli child, to want to kill any child one would have a rather dark heart. for Dave and Ruvy to not want to help sick Palestinian children, they too must ave dark hearts. Humanitarian aid by nature does not choose sides. As in the common medical practice of triage, it seeks out those most in need and works backwards. I have been to Israel, the people there are just fine. It’s the people of Gaza who need help.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    157 It’s not very difficult to explain

    Hebron settlers and the olive harvest.

    Here is an portrait of the way I see it. It’s a very simple story really. Settlements expand onto land that is already inhabited by Palestinians. The settlers have a protective army on their side. Israel takes the land and the government diverts resources to the settlers, leaving the Palestinians without access to their own groves, to water, to roads, having to go through blockades and barricades to get anywhere–to work, to get medical attention. They have bulldozed homes of Palestinians, forced their shops to close, deprived them of being able to fish for food. Settlers deride and harass Palestinians, refusing them access even under court order, to their groves as you see in the video below. The IDF stands by, suddenly impotent. Common settler attitudes are vulgar and hateful, as seen here. They express attitudes suggesting that God has given this land to the Jews. There really never were any Palestinians, they are just Arabs. There never was a Palestine. Many of the settlers I have seen in video strike me as vicious racists and certainly unfair. Settlers constantly harass and attack Palestinians.

    When you come into a place where someone lives and you prevent them from living there like human beings, what do you expect but to incite them to hate you? Can anyone attacking the Arabs here tell me that they would not hate people who treated them this way?

  • Jeff

    Agreed that the discussion definitely eroded into vitriol because it’s such a hot button issue. Find it difficult to discuss the McKinney boat without it leading to the bigger issues. Just sick and tired of people that always accuse Israel. It is an unfortunate situation and has been for very long time and no one seems to be able to end it. I still feel Israel’s first priority is their security, everything else is secondary. I do agree Gaza needs humanitarian help but has to be on a massive change down the very core of all the parties involved. Don’t think a tugboat carrying few bags of cement and potato chips from a lying cop-slapping disgraced politician looking for publicity is the long term solution. Mark-I agree religion in all forms is the major cause of wars & conflicts in the world and too many people have been killed in the name of religion throughout history but can’t stand when people say Israel is the main cause of all wars (whole separate argument). I won’t even comment on nuking though, won’t go there myself. Christopher-I agree there must be other options but don’t think any have worked and haven’t heard of any good ideas. Any suggestions?

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “We are Jews and we dare to live, and we are proud of who we are. And that’s why the bitch hates us.”

    you mean “she hates us for our freedom?”

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    157 comments later and the divide is just as wide. What’s troubling to me is that we continue to tow party lines that have been in place for centuries. We continue to breed generations to hate each other for what? Because one God is better than the other? Because Jews are the “chosen people”? Because Christ is the only conduit to entering the Gates of Heaven? We’re all stuck here on this fragile planet. After all is said and done, wouldn’t it be better to breed a generation of communicators as opposed to haters? I understand the passion on all sides but enough is enough. There’s a lot of money involved when it comes to perpetuating this conflict. So ask yourselves – WHO really gains from continuing this hatred? The little guy? The defense industry? Political leaders? Open your eyes, people. Time to start breeding sanity back into our species.

  • Jeff

    Cindy, I don’t agree with much of your points which usually sound like arab propoganda but you actually finally make some good points that I agree with regarding some of the settlers etc. I don’t approve of some of the actions Israel does to only further foment the hardened feelings there.

  • Ma rk

    Jeff, I won’t even comment on nuking though, won’t go there myself.

    Then you should enjoy this gem. A shining example of what you call: …the unemotional wisdom and sensibility and open-mindedness of Israelis as Ruvy

  • zingzing

    silas: “Time to start breeding sanity back into our species.”

    no more kids for ruvy.

  • Jeff

    Silas-I always say it’s a business for the hate & terror groups over there. I don’t really believe that it’s conspiracy theories though. It’s a shame that today’s generation in middle east barely knows what they’re fighting for and why they hate as much as they do as did their previous generation who at least had viable issues they truly believed in. It’s a shame that both sides today keep creating and making sure a new generation over there keeps on hating & killing.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    The rest of the story. Why Hamas?

    I move into your neighborhood with my army standing next to me to defend me while I wall off your resources and while my bombs kill your children.

    Hamas has aided the Palestinians and provided supplies and protection.

    How long do you think people are going to stand still and be subjugated, murdered and harrassed like this without fighting back?

    I am still looking for the one video where the settlers supported the Palestinians and treated them fairly and with kindness. It was a wonderful thing to see.

    I will go with what Silas said.

  • Jeff

    Thanks for the link Mark. Great article. I agree with most of Ruvy’s positions in that piece. The idea of taking out Iran’s nuke capacity is different in my mind then nuking Jerusalem, Mecca & Rome though.

  • M ark

    Thanks for the link…

    de nada

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Oh btw, Silas’ radio program is on tonight at 11 pm est (be there or…be somewhere else, I guess)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I hope I got it right this time, Silas. :-)

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Jeff, you probably won’t have seen it, but Ruvy has also enthused on this site about nuking Tel Aviv, because they are not proper Jews there…

  • zingzing

    so jeff has no problem with genocide… interesting…

    another nut is welcomed into the fold.

  • Jeff

    Oy Chris, can’t comment on anything I know nothing about but generally can’t agree with that. Cindy, I hate all wars and hope most people do. All the killings, broken lives, horrible disgustingness. But feel some are almost justifiable or necessary to save more lives or for the greater good or just plain self-defense. Of course, it’s subjective and matter of opinion anyone’s definiton of greater good, or evil etc but WW2 for example, however ugly, seemed necessary, no choice in my mind as US citizen. Most of your comments are about the children being bombed in Gaza, Afghanistan etc. as USA bombs Iraqis and Afghans. Just curious what your view on Iraq, Kuwait? Or when the entire arab world attacked puny Israel in ’48, Israel’s 6 day war ’67, Israel attacked ’73…each time barbaricly slaughtering untold innocent children and women on kibbutzes.

  • zingzing

    jeff, no one likes war (well, except ruvy, who absolutely LIVES for it. it’s like he sees a dead arab and gets a juicy hard on.)

    but, genocide is never the answer (and it’s especially troubling coming out of the mouth of one whose people suffered that same fate within the last century.)

  • Jeff

    c’mon zing, referring to the Iranian nuke issue? gimme a break, no one wants that crap to happen! but what would a country like Israel who has been attacked and threatened and hated time and time again for it’s very existence do?that is not genocide or the definiton of genocide, it is self defense. if you’re israeli or jewish you’d understand. everyone applauded with osirak. the nut is Iran. don’t you think everyone is trying and looking for any other options? the aftermath is soooooo bad for israel but doing nothing is worse, that has been shown.

  • Jeff

    I was always against the BS reasons for Iraq war but to me it’s the same scenario as Iran and Israel. Not crying over the Iraqi gov’t and thankfully they are gone but don’t see why it’s OK for USA to bomb the crap out of Iraq, topple and kill the gov’t and millions of others under the premise “our national security is at stake because they will have a nuclear capability” but it’s genocide with Iran.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    but what would a country like Israel who has been attacked and threatened and hated time and time again for it’s very existence do?

    The Israelis should stand up and defend their Palestinian neighbors. It would be a good start toward easing all the hatred aimed at them by Arabs.

  • zingzing

    “c’mon zing, referring to the Iranian nuke issue?”

    you think the way to stop them from nuking israel is to nuke iran? better check the winds that day. sheesh… then you’d better watch out for the invading hordes of arabs. which is worse: instant annihilation, or watching a million arabs chop of heads and rape women and burn down your houses, then take over your city (because you bombed theirs out of existence) and live on your land? yay! actions have consequences!

    “gimme a break, no one wants that crap to happen! but what would a country like Israel who has been attacked and threatened and hated time and time again for it’s very existence do?”

    learn to negotiate–and that means actually giving something up? stop starving palestinians to death? achieve peace? stop breaking ceasefires? eat a little crow? stop having a god complex? love thine enemy? allow equal rights for arabs in their cities?

    “that is not genocide or the definiton of genocide, it is self defense.”

    always the excuse of the genocidal, ain’t it?

    “don’t you think everyone is trying and looking for any other options?”

    not ruvy.

    “the aftermath is soooooo bad for israel but doing nothing is worse, that has been shown.”

    it hasn’t been shown… how could it have been?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeff,

    You keep implying someone that you are talking to believes that it’s okay for the US to be involved in Iraq.

    Iraq is genocide. Afghanistan is genocide. Iran would be genocide. It’s pretty simple really: killing innocent people is genocide.

    Governments are terrorists.

  • zingzing

    “the aftermath is soooooo bad for israel but doing nothing is worse, that has been shown.”

    oooohhhh. you were referring to the holocaust. yeah, doing nothing sucks, but you don’t have to go from “nothing” to genocide in one step.

  • Jeff

    Everyone really needs to look up definition of geneocide to use it properly. Always used when against any military action. As mentioned and ignored earlier, I guess all the attacks against Israel killing everybody in their path by all the arab countries as the world stood by and did nothing is genocide then by your argument. Serbia is genocide, somalia, darfur etc. If you think Iran gives a crap about the Gaza issue so gullible, just a pawn, a PR move. if Israel didn’t exist the big bad USA would be the enemy. Iran uses it’s anti-Israel/USA stance to brainwash it’s own people. They just tried to draw us into the election BS to deflect but not working anymore. Why don’t the arabs stand up and defend their Israeli neighbors who have tried negotiating, have given up plenty for peace but only when there’s an abiding entity on other side of the table. Why don’t arabs recognize Israel’s existense to make peace if they’re so friendly?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeff,

    You fail to understand me. All GOVERNMENTS are terrorists.

    I don’t give a fuck about the GOVERNMENT of IRAN or the GOVERNMENT of Israel or the GOVERNMENT of the US.

    Why don’t arabs recognize Israel’s existense to make peace if they’re so friendly?

    Did you actually read anything I have posted?

  • Jeff

    Again, I don’t know how to defend the less moderate arab nations that abuse their own people, no rights for women, no human rights at all, no democracy, censorship, no value for human life, use children as shields, strap bombs to children, circumsize & stone & rape their own women, hide weapons in mosques and nobody has killed more arabs then arabs.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Can’t think about people can you? You can only think in terms of governments. That why it’s YOU who doesn’t understand what genocide means. Or is it okay for someone to come and kill YOUR family because they are pissed off at YOUR government?

  • Jeff

    yes cindy, bombing children only in gaza counts, got it. israel of all things should stand up for their arab neighbors not the other way around, got it.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Again, I don’t know how to defend the less moderate arab nations that abuse their own people…

    Why would you want to defend them? They’re indefensible. Once more…

    Just look at PEOPLE. Fuck governments: Arab ones, European ones, American and Canadian ones. Israeli ones.

  • Jeff

    I’ve never typed the word government, only you have, I’m talking about their own society and their people. That is not genocide Cindy. You should ask an Iraqi child if it’s OK that America missiled his entire family.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    yes cindy, bombing children only in gaza counts, got it. israel of all things should stand up for their arab neighbors not the other way around, got it.

    You aren’t winning any prizes here for comprehension.

  • Jeff

    The PEOPLE in those arab countries are the ones who abuse their own people, want no rights for women, want no human rights at all, want no democracy, want censorship, no value for human life, use children as shields, strap bombs to children, circumsize & stone & rape their own women, hide weapons in mosques and nobody has killed more arabs then arabs.

  • Jeff

    should be directed yourself for not comprehending the word genocide or the real situation and history of middle east fanatics

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    You don’t have to type the WORD government. It is what you mean! Look at what you wrote:

    attacks against Israel killing everybody in their path by all the arab countries

    Iran uses it’s anti-Israel/USA stance

    to brainwash it’s own people. (see here are the people, in this sentence–they aren’t the government)

    They just tried to draw us

    Who is THEY?

    Who is US?

    Did the PEOPLE of Iran contact YOU and try to draw you into something?

    You have a blindspot. It’s ingrained. You can only see it if you make an effort. Do you understand what I’m saying now?

  • Jeff

    I get it Cindy, you’re a little too fixated on the difference. Their people agree their gov’ts, they stand by their gov’ts, they ahve the same values. It’s not the gov’t that crosses the border and knifes an entire family in a kibbutz to death, it’s a person. it’s not the gov’t that stones their women, it’s the men who agree, it’s not the gov’t that teaches their children to stand in front of bulldozers, it’s the parents, it’s not the gov’t that snatched hostages and still have, it’s the people etc etc

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    You should ask an Iraqi child if it’s OK that America missiled his entire family.

    You’re challenging my patience. Are you being dense intentionally?

  • Jeff

    Just replying to:
    Can’t think about people can you? You can only think in terms of governments. That why it’s YOU who doesn’t understand what genocide means. Or is it okay for someone to come and kill YOUR family because they are pissed off at YOUR government?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeff –

    Guess what? The VAST majority of the Arabs are just like us. They’re PEOPLE.

    What you see in the Middle East is the result of the influence of the few over the many – just like the influence of the few hard-line Nazis bending a nation to their will, or the influence of the relatively few neo-cons bending the will of even the moderates of the Republican party.

    And NO, I’m not comparing the Republicans to either one – I’m pointing out realities of political psychology.

    Have you been to the Middle East? I have, and I can walk down the streets of almost ANY city there (outside of Afghanistan and possibly Pakistan) with greater safety than I can walk down the streets of many American cities.

    For every accusation you bring against the Arabs, I can point out at least one and usually several instances in history where the ‘Christian’ West has committed crimes at least as bad and usually worse.

    Maybe we don’t strap bombs to children, but we did tell our troops to ‘kill all male children over 10 years old” in the Filipino Huk insurrection at the beginning of the last century.

    So get off your moral high horse, because history proves you wrong.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    That’s right. Governments start wars and massacres, but people are responsible for carrying them out.

    Each individual person Jeff. Not ALL people in a big lump. Or shall we just forget that when you say ARABS you ALSO mean the women who are stoned to death?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    When you say AMERICANS, you will be talking about my nephew as well as the psychopaths who torture people.

    All terrorists are brainwashed. The ones wearing US military garb as well as the ones flying into buildings without government backing.

    I don’t want terrorists working for GOVERNMENTS or working on their own killing my family or anyone else because they believe they are righteous and justified.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    What you see in the Middle East is the result of the influence of the few over the many…

    I think this is on the right track. I would like to change it a little.

    What you see in the everywhere in the world is the result of the domination of the few over the many–whether with or without their consent.

  • Jeff

    All I kept hearing from Cindy are comments that sounded like Isarel’s gov’t were savages so i was defending that. Then she said not to discuss gov’ts. israel is a progressive, democratic, very advanced country. yes I have been to Israel dozens of times, Egypt, Jordan few times, Morocco etc. so I do have some knowledge. I said earlier Glen that religions, ALL religions are the major cause of all wars and hate that and seems hypocritical of religion. I have many arab friends and correspond with many daily. I am not lumping them all together, just defending what Israel has to defend against regarding Gaza, Iran etc and some of the tactics they must confront which are from the dark ages. And I agree Cindy, the people are the ones who carry it out, that’s what I’ve been saying.

  • Jeff

    Exactly, as a whole the majority of the arab world is benign and peaceful and influenced by a few fanatics. I didn’t mean to disparage the whole group but kept sounding like Israel was worse then the gaza terrorists and I don’t believe that. Cindy have you been to middle east?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Isarel’s gov’t were savages

    They are. So are all other govts.

    ALL religions are the major cause of all wars and hate…

    They are one major cause, I agree. But what about this? The US is a nonsectarian nation. Look at what you said about Afghanistan and Iraq.

  • Jeff

    There ya go Cindy, flipflopping, talking gov’t and the only savages in the area are gaza terrorists, alqaeda, taliban, hezbollah, hamas. US isn’t exactly nonsectarian, it’s run by christian right, and who was in office to start those wars? Bush, Cheney, the religous conservative christian right.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    israel is a progressive, democratic, very advanced country that bombs innocent civilians and maintains apartheid against them.

    It’s almost as nice as all the other progressive, democratic, very advanced countries.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    the only savages in the area are gaza terrorists, alqaeda, taliban, hezbollah, hamas and the IDF.

    fixed that for you

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    who was in office to start those wars?

    Who was in office to start every other war? Who was in office to control the Fourth World War against innocent civilians waged by the CIA where hundreds of millions of innocent people have been killed? Both Democrats and Republicans were.

    Whose children join the military and pick up arms and kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan? Are they ALL the children of the religious right?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Every single person who promotes the military, who says ‘support our troops’ are contributing to terrorism–whether they want to see it that way or not. It’s a fact. Without them and without soldiers, there is no war.

  • zingzing

    jeff: “Their people agree their gov’ts, they stand by their gov’ts, they ahve the same values.”

    ahh, that’s what happened in iran. they were rioting FOR the gov’t. gotcha.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeff –

    You posted: “I said earlier Glen that religions, ALL religions are the major cause of all wars and hate that and seems hypocritical of religion.”

    WWI was not about religion. Neither was WWII. Neither were Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I or II, Rwanda…the list goes on.

    The Holocaust was not about religion, but about race and eugenics. The gulags were not, and neither were China’s ‘Great Leap Forward” or the killing fields of Cambodia.

    Religion has caused vast harm, and mainstream ‘Christianity’ more than any other…but these pale in comparison to what has resulted from racial prejudice, national pride, and military adventurism.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I would like someone to show me anything Hamas has done that the IDF has not done. What makes only one of these two the terrorists.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Why don’t arabs recognize Israel’s existense to make peace if they’re so friendly?

    I forgot to say another thing about this.

    You talk as if this is the solution to the problem.

    Israel refuses to negotiate for a resolution. Israel does not want to solve the problem. They refused to sign the last ceasefire agreement.

    Now, why would they do that?

  • Jeff

    Wow, Cindy, quite hypocrytical of you to go back and forth especially when you know nothing of the middle east. fortunately I have things to do so I can get a break from Cindy’s bizarre love of terror and archaic ideologies. Maybe the PEOPLE will learn from the wonderful democracy of Israel and demand the same rights as they are starting to do in Iran and mildly in left bank. But not in Gaza, the PEOPLE want the same leaders in charge and agree with it all. Per Cindy, it’s the PEOPLE that have the power to stand up and not agree with their gov’ts but sadly they most do not agree with the arab gov’ts in those countries. Walking around these countries and feeling safe is not the point. I’d like to see Cindy do that without a burqa on. It’s not the gov’t that’ll stone you, it’s the PEOPLE. Or maybe live in Israel and run to shelter every day as rockets fly overhead. or have coffee at a cafe and watch your brother blown to bits. Done by PEOPLE willingly. Pretty easy to watch youtube on a couch and pass judgement on a world, cherry pick a side. Thank g-d for the IDF or there would be no Israel after being attacked endlessly for 60 years by animals.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Oh, let me clarify, Israel does want a solution. Get rid of the Palestinians. That is their solution. Their only solution.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    hypocrytical of you to go back and forth

    Please explain what you mean by ‘back and forth’. My position is entirely consistent.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy wrote Try to erase all of youtube Ruvy. There are thousands and thousands of videos of racist extremists, like yourself, abusing Palestinians. Women, men, and children acting like animals toward other human beings.

    She thinks she can use Youtube to indict me, and my neighbors. Let’s see if we can’t tree Tolstoy’s Cat, and impale it on its own petard.

    First let’s identify the cast of characters. Cindy’s heroes are called b’tzélem. The chief features of this outfit is that they support the Arabs – no matter what – they filn everything (l’tzalém means “to take a photo of”, and that is pretty much what B’tzelem does), and finally they incite violence, so as to have what to take a picture of.

    There is one other trait of B’tzelem that is very impoortant to mention. They are secular Jews who hate Judaism and the G-d of Israel.

    Cindy’s villans are religious Jews. In the videos, they generally appear with frowns on their faces, because they are being filmed, and because they are being incited to violence by the B’tzelem activists. Oh, they are mean, evil people, let me tell you! Regular nazis! That’s what Cindy and her heroes, B’tzelem, want you to think. Now for the other characters in these teleplays, for that is what they really are, teleplays for the purposes of inciting violence against and hatred of religious Jews.

    First are the “victims” – usually, but not always Arabs. Finally, playing indeterminate roles are the soldiers of the IDF, who are stuck dealing with the violence that B’tzelem incites.

    Occasionally, though the “victims” are secular Jews.

    Let’s walk you through this video, one where B’tzelem alleges that “Hebron settlers assault internationals and Israeli”.

    This video is a bit different from the majority in that it has no translation. This is the B’tzelem blurb on the video.

    “On October 18, 2005, settlers assault internationals and an Israeli activist, repeatedly threatening them. The soldiers do almost nothing to stop the attacks.”

    When the video opens (and clears its focus) you see a bunch of kids in kippot dressed in white, laughing. First question. Why are the kids dressed in white? When you look up 18 October, you find that this day is Sukkot, a holiday – one where one is not supposed to drive cars, use cameras etc. etc. On holidays like the Sabbath, and other days of joy, we tend tp dress in white. In come the B’tzelem “internationals” to religious Hebron, driving a car and dragging out their camera to film. Already, they are attempting to incite anger. As we see later, they are dressed like mall ratrs for the most part, with dark clothes. In other words, you can tell the good guys because they are dressed in white!

    You see a kid with reddish hair commenting to the man filming “(you’re) a little slow – an idiot, huh? Where are you from, Pops (abba, used in coloquial Hebrew to mean a fellow who’s middle aged)?

    Real assaulting, right? That is definite assault!

    The cameraman refuses to answer. Why? The cameraman, a secular, G-d hating Jew (he wouldn’t carry a camera to the City of Abraham on Sukkot and certainly wouldn’t drive on Sukkot if he wasn’t filled with contempt for G-d) regards these Jews in Hebron as less than human – not even brother Jews. The term he uses with a sneer is “mitnHalim” – settlers.

    The Hebron resident, getting no answer at all, says in Hebrew, “are you a complete retard?” The continued silence elicits comtinued comments of “idiots”, “fools” and the like, as the boys walk forward, and the cameraman retreats backwards.

    Had the cameraman answered the boys, they would have been shown to have been human, and this was not the goal of B’tzelem. The goal of B’tzelem, was and remains to dehumanize the religious Jews in the eyes of other Jews, and more particlulary in the eyes of ignorant foreigners, who wouldn’t understand what was going on – or the motives, particularly those of B’tzelem.

    But let’s keep watching. As the late Ed MacMahon used to say, there’s more to come.

    Around 50 seconds into the video, a soldier shows up, stopping the boys from continuing to follow the cameraman. The boys respond to the soldier, “they’re filming, stop them from filming.”

    As the soldier “accompanies” the boys away from the cameraman, they express their own anger and contempt for him (the cameraman) – but they take no action against anybody.

    As wew reach the 80 second mark in the video, we see one of the Hiloni (secular) kids realizing that he is in view of the camera, and he slowly moves out of the way. The nature of the Hiloni incitement is not supposted to be visible to the viewer of the video. Only the reaction of those Jews incited, and the reaction of the victims (Arabs) if rhere are any, is to be seen.

    This is propaganda. Don’t ever let that fact slip – if you do, Tolstoy’s Cat will flee dsown the tree of truth to pull out some more lies.

    As we get to the minute and a half in the video, more secular Jews show up on camera, and the kids from Hebron are asking them as they try to slide out of the camera’s view, “are you an Israeli? Completely?” with a tone that is between “seduction” and contempt. The secular Jewish kids also remain silent.

    That’s assault folks, isn’t it?

    At about 1:48 into the video, we finally hear from the “international”, an American girl.

    “Don’t fuckin’ touch me!

    But we don’t see it on camera that she was being touched, do we? At two minutes into the video, we finally see a teenager approach the girl, (such a sweet voice she has) while the soldier prevents him from approaching too closely, and she repeats “don’t ever fuckin’ touch me! Got it?” as she walks away.

    What is obvious to me, because I live in the Middle East, is that the problem is different customs regarding body space. In Israel, it is common to touch people and to get close to them. That is the way things are done here. There is very little body space between people when they talk. But in the States, there is this huge bubble between people, a bubble that is smaller on the east coast but somewhat bigger in the Midswest (in American prisons, this bubble is huge, something which often incites fights and riots). And Americans do not touch each other. Period.

    The folks from B’tzelem, of course, do not explain any of this. That would make the teenagers from Hebron look like – well teenagers!

    By 2:10 in the video, we see the teenager try to walk near the American gir, saying in broken English, “Go home! Go home! Is that possible? over and over, as she repeats, “don’t ever fuckin’ touch me!

    Now, I have a question. What is this snotty bitch from the United States doing in Hebron, coming to this boy’s home city on a holiday when he would have preferred to walk in peace with his friends? Who the fuck is she? Who gave her the right? Couldn’t she just have stayed in her damned mall in the States, toking up when nobody was looking and getting laid on the side? She had to come to Hebron and disturb these kids in along with her G-d hating Israeli friends? The Jews in Hebron came to her house to disturb her?

    Who assaulted whom?

    By the time you get to the end of the video, you finally see that the goal of annoying the “Jews” – sticking it to them on their holy day – has been accomplished, and the scumbag cameraman from B’tezelem yells yalla bo! “come on, let’s go!”

    This is a basic pattern in these videos. The goal of B’tzelem is to incite. Most often, they arrive in religious villages on a Saturday, so as to anger the Jews they film. Having incited the anger, they exploit it, seeking to get some Jews to do something violent.

    In Cindy’s “Olive Grove Video”, the B’tzelem boys came along with some Arabs in order to show that the evil settlers were thieves. And what were these evil thieves stealing? The olives on the trees in front of their own homes, for which the Arabs had gotten a court order to seize and harvest.

    Mor attempted incitement to violence. As I pointed out to Cindy in a comment earlier, incitement to violence is a crime. It is a crime regualsrly indulged in gy Betz\elem, with support of the shit leftist media here(like Haaretz), and the courts – which do NOT dispense justice according to due process, but according to politcal favoritism.

    Hey! Tolstoy;s Cat! You can come down from that tree now! I got a package of Tender Vittles for you!

    Here, kitty, kitty, kitty!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeff,

    Your glaring bias makes you transparent. It’s also the reason you imagine any inconsistency in what I’ve said.

    You don’t really care about Iraqis or Afghans any more than you do about Iranians or Palestinians. You’ve only been using Iraq and Afghanistan as an argument.

    You don’t really have a cause beyond propping up the Israeli govt and condemning Arabs.

    It’s difficult for you to understand what a viewpoint that does consistently support all innocent people actually looks like.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Gee, I’m glad I stayed out of this discussion.

    [realizes everyone’s staring] Oh bugger.

    Carry on.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    It’s about censorship. You proved it with your fanatical desire to censor Rachel Corrie’s voice. You are an admitted censor. Nevermind your sabbath days in Israel. You would shut Rachel Corrie’s voice up in NYC in Los Angeles. And now you are going to try and make some weak claim that it is all about holy days in Israel?

    Settlers seem to despise cameras wherever they see them. Cameras apparently incite settlers into a great deal of violence. Israeli settlers rip cameras from the hands of anyone filming abuse. I will show you settlers who apprehend uninvolved videographers and what they ask is, “Why are you filming that?”: The Settlers It’s clear what the objective is. Their only objective is censorship of racist extremist Israeli violence against Palestinians.

    Why are the ‘good people in white’ seen kicking Palestinians who are trying to harvest their olives here? Were they incited to do this? Is this some holy tenet? Though shalt kick thy neighbor?

    Please lets’ see your analysis of Gaza: The Killing Zone – Israel/Palestine

  • Cannonshop

    216 Too late, Doc, we see you.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Darn it. Now I’ll have to have an opinion.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    “Human beings need to be freed from dangerous political abstractions.” -AfricanCampaign (from twitter)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Settlers seem to despise cameras wherever they see them

    Perhaps, I should come uninvited to your home and film you and see how you react, Cindy. Come perhaps when you are having the family over and just stand there in silence, uninvited, taking pictures and violating your privacy.

    Frankly, if some piece of shit from b’tzelem or peace Now came to my village and started in with the cameras, I wouldn’t ry to sntch the camera. I would take a photo of his car, concentrating on his licence plate, and use my police connections to find out where the piece of shit lived and harass him and his family where he lived to give him a dose of his own medicine.

    That would be if I could control my temper enough not to smash his jaw.

    But I would not take away his camera (till after I had smashed his jaw).

    A side note to Glenn – I wouldn’t shoot the piece of shit. These scum are not worth the price of a bullet.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    It’s about censorship. You proved it with your fanatical desire to censor Rachel Corrie’s voice. You are an admitted censor.

    Ah, you are so good at distortion. Did you take a course in it? Really, you are a talented lady.

    You asked my opinion on Rachel Corrie. I gave it to you. I am not a “censor”. If I were I would demand a monthly salary, at least NIS 5,000. You do not like my opinion because I think that her incitements to sedition are against Israeli law. Well, they are.

    If the new left shits and the “Jews to the gas!/”Palestine” lobby werent’t constantly trying to shout dowm (or beat down) the pro-Israel voices in America, I wouldn’t give a damn about Rachel Corrie’s claptrap garbage going on stage there. But if the Jew-haters are going to be militant bastards in America, fine, let the Jewish community shut up the shit from the “Jews to the Gas!/Palestine” lobby. Fair is fair. The hell with your constitution. Your government doesn’t respect it. Why should I?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    . And now you are going to try and make some weak claim that it is all about holy days in Israel?

    Your comments display both you ignorance of and contempt for my faith and for my people. You are entitled to both if you wish to feel it, but I’ll not tolerate your bullshit without the appropriate answer.

    Someone with your ignorance should not commment at all. That’s to begin with. But since you do comment, then understand that just because most American Jews you see don’t give a fuck about who or what they are does not make us like them.

    We are nothing like them – and we are nothing like you.

    A holy day is respected for the things that are appropriate to it, and when secxular pigs or foreigners come and invade our homes and homesteads on our holy days they rouse nothing but contempt.

    Lately, we Jews have begun to give Arabs the doses of the violence and theft they have been giving us. The time approaches to beat the secular bastards bloody, destroy their cars and make them seek refuge among the Arabs as they walk to Tel Aviv.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I asked your opinion about whether or not you would censor Rachel Corrie. I told you some Jews have forced it out of performance and some supported it. Your answer was in regard to Israel, not NYC or LA apparently. So I am corrected on that much. You still agree she should be censored as you said below.

    97

    As for us in Israel, we have laws that forbid incitement to sedition, and allowing a “free” expression of her thoughts would be just that under Israeli law – incitement to sedition.

    Given that the leftist shits have used this on us extensively, shutting down radio stations, holding children incommunicado in jail, etc. etc., it is time for a little balance. Let the stupid mall rat be heard amoung her heroes, Arab terrorists, and let her words not contaminate healthy Jewish minds.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    “contempt for my faith and for my people”

    I have contempt for any faith that suggests that any human is more worthwhile or has any more right to anything than any other human. So, right, your not ‘the chosen’ people in my book. In fact if I were god I toss you into the time out corner for arrogance and hatefulness.

    I have no contempt for people who are religious, unless they use their religion to justify hatred and domination.

    Your religion has nothing to say about other people using cameras. If you don’t like it don’t be around it. Don’t want your picture taken? Stay home and stop attacking Palestinians.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Perhaps, I should come uninvited to your home and film you and see how you react, Cindy.

    What gall you have. Into my home? The settlers are threatening people who are picking olives in their groves, people walking down the public street.

    Israel is your home and not theirs?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Faith has nothing to do with dogma. It’s about relationship with what a person regards as something higher than them, and the corresponding relationship they’re supposed to have with others. It’s a kind of trust. Ruvy’s views have nothing to do with faith (though he will certainly deny it, citing passage after passage from his Holy Books, forgetting all the while that vengeance is the Lord’s).

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    A holy day is respected for the things that are appropriate to it, and when secxular pigs or foreigners come and invade our homes and homesteads on our holy days they rouse nothing but contempt.

    Oh, I got it backwards. I was under the impression that Palestinians already lived there.

    But I see…their just Arabs right? There never was a Palestine right? God gave you the land, yes?

    Go ahead and prove you are exactly like the racist extremists in this video:

    God gave us this land. We have a God.

    When your religion makes you into monster, which is what you are acting like. It’s time to call it what it is–an license to hate.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    “In January 2007, B’Tselem launched “Shooting Back”, a video advocacy project focusing on the Occupied Territories. We provide Palestinians living in high-conflict areas with video cameras, with the goal of bringing the reality of their lives under occupation to the attention of the Israeli and international public, exposing and seeking redress for violations of human rights. In March 2007, a new settlement was established in the a-Ras neighborhood of Hebron. Since its establishment, there has been a noticeable increase in harassment and attacks by settlers and Israeli security forces on the neighborhood’s Palestinian residents.”

    The time approaches to beat the secular bastards bloody, destroy their cars and make them seek refuge among the Arabs as they walk to Tel Aviv. –Ruvy

    I hope they have their cameras ready. I think I’ll send a donation, just to make sure they have enough.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    B’TSELEM – The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Enough of your “Jews to the gas chamber” song and dance number. I told you I am 25% Ukranian. I grew up with a Ukranian grandmother. I have more murdered ancestors than you and most people never even heard about them.

    Using your heritage as a descendant of an atrocity to deflect criticism when you brutalize people is unconscionable. And it isn’t going to fly any more. The world is getting wise. You look like the woman in this video, whining how “the poor Jews can’t live anywhere”, while she and her pack of extremist thugs descend on an innocent man who is minding his own business trying to pick what’s left of his olives..

    Norm Finkelstein calls this The Holocaust Industry. You can see ways of handling the conflict on Norm’s site that are in line with Gandhi’s teachings:

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Non-violent Resistance.

    “Jews to the Gas!/Palestine”

    I have never seen Palestinians with the power to stop NYC productions of a play right in their tracks.

    Here is how I should have written my article:

    The Israeli govt seeks to limit the transfer of crayons and cement into Gaza, for fear the Palestinians will build bomb shelters. Each Hamas terrorist–I hear there is one under every civilian bed–will crayon messages of propaganda, stuff them into bottles, and send them out to sea. AIPAC won’t be able to stand the competition.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    What gall you have. Into my home?

    That’s right lady! Your home! You have no business telling me or any of my countrymen where they may live or where they may not live! IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCXKING BIUSINESS! IT IS NONE OF YOUR FUCKING PRESIDERT’S BUSINESS EITHER! AND IT CERTAINLY ISN’T THE BUSINESS OF THAT JEW-HATER McKINNEY.

    As for B’tzelem, they lie about their goals they lie about their funding, and they lie about their motives. They do what they do to create a war between Jews because they hate G-d. And they’ve proven it timne and time again. They had the gall to bring that trashy whore from the States with a mouth like a sewer to Hebron? They had the gall to violate OUR LAWS for their shit. They continually do this! I analyzed the pattern of their activities by their own tape. They stand convicted by their own actions!

    These scumbags, along with the traitors of Peace Now, the various prime ministers since Peres were all the trash that Hitler missed.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    You don’t get to move into a place where other people already reside, call it your home and then attack them for existing.

    It’s the world’s business. The days of keeping your brutal secrets hidden are numbered.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Yes, with a name like Peace Now I can already tell they’re nothing but villains.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    These videos may be one-sided, (somewhat), but they’re not lies. Or perhaps you want to claim they’re all “doctored.”

    Shame!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    This is what you are claiming:

    That the goals of all the human rights and peace groups, along with all the people who live there and who say that Palestinians are being abused, oppressed, and murdered are just in a big conspiracy because they hate Jews.

    There are actually no abuses of Palestinians. All these groups and individuals just made it up out of thin air because they hate Jews (even though many of them ARE Jews).

    Here is my definition for what you call:

    A secular Jew = one who does not believe God gave Jews a license to dominate and oppress Arabs.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    How many settlers would you estimate think just like you do, Ruvy?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #236 was addressed to Ruvy. (I should have known better and stay out.)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I told you I am 25% Ukranian. I grew up with a Ukranian grandmother. I have more murdered ancestors than you and most people never even heard about them. As I told you, I did hear of all the Ukrainians who died, though not under the Ukrainian name you gave me.

    But you may wish to consider this, Cindy. The ten million or more Ukrainians who died about 90 years ago may have ben payback for all the destruction and misery caused over several generations by that SOB with a statue in Kiyev, Bogdan Hmielnicki. There is Divind justice in the world, and where there is sin there is punishment, and where there is punishment, there is surely sin.

    That is my attitude towards the six million Jews who died, so I’m not asking you to consider something for yourself that I would not consider for myself.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Settlers: They are called settlers because this is NOT their land, they are always settling new land, which is already occupied by Palestinians.

    The Israelis are colonialists. They colonize and then like all colonialists throughout history, they dominate the indigenous population and marginalize their voices.

    This is what AIPAC is about. This is what censorship of media and the Rachel Corrie play in US cities is about.

    How many people reading this were aware that My Name is Rachel Corrie has been stopped from being performed– censored numerous times in the U.S.?

    It’s a play about the communications of a young woman during her time in Israel.

    She was killed by a Caterpillar D9R armored bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a protest against the destruction of Palestinian homes by the IDF in the Gaza Strip where IDF had designated a security zone and claimed contained a network of smuggling tunnels used for weapons smuggling and as guerilla hideouts which is necessary for them to destroy while Palestinians claim the tunnels are for “food, gasoline, and household treats'” trade under Israel blockade.

    Did anyone expect that censoring a play about a woman’s thoughts and experiences was still possible?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Roger,

    #236 was addressed to Ruvy. (I should have known better and stay out.)

    I didn’t respond to anything you said. Did you think I did?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    At least according to the following account, it was a war of liberation from the Polish/Latwian yoke. And I’m a Pole and a Ukrainian too.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    #236 supports my argument. Why would I have a problem with it?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    In actuality, I felt some appreciation for your comment, Roger.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I am very grateful someone actually looked at the video, Roger. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    236: … Or perhaps you want to claim they’re all “doctored.”

    237: This is what you are claiming …
    ——————————————-

    (Just to make certain)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Roger, I am referring to the Ukranian genocide, the Holodomor, where 10 million Ukranians were starved to death by Stalin’s regime. The Famine Genocide.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    237 was addressed to Ruvy. Sorry about that. That is what he is trying to claim as far as I can see.

    Why else are all these groups trying to raise awareness of the situation. According to Ruvy, they must all hate Jews. Even though many are Jews.

    I guess that is where they get that ‘self-hating’ Jew label.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I never realized it was such a militaristic state, neo-Nazi state. I lived there for two years in the early sixties (actually graduated from high school over there before coming to the US) and it was nowhere like this (though you heard through the grapevine about Arabs being second-class citizens, with travel restrictions and need of special documentation to be able to move freely).

    So I tried to keep an open mind about this, thinking the blame is apportionable to both sides. But these videos did convince me that Israel has become a mad dog attach machine, and anyone who renders it any kind of support is equally culpable.

    The kind of views that Ruvy espouses would have been unthinkable in Israel 50 years ago, except for the most rabid fanatics. But I do begin to see that given the existing condition, unfortunately he’s no exception. They’ve learned to live with hatred in their heart and they don’t know any better now. I certainly hope it’s not a majority, because people like that don’t deserve to survive.

    So yes, these videos were a revelation to me – “doctored” as they may have been.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I hope people stop and think, why would a whole array of groups for peace and human rights be going out of their way–to do what–promote hatred for Jews? Does that make sense to anyone?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #248,

    I know, but my response was to Ruvy’s #240 (claiming it was a payback).

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    250 – thank you Roger, for saying that. I had no intention of merely being in a war with Ruvy. But since he pressed, I hoped I could post any information that might inspire anyone to rethink what they believe. That I aided one person in beginning to rethink means that my whole day of posting was worth it. It’s a victory.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    #252 – Yes, I got confused. Thanks

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Nothing is going to convince Ruvy or Jeff; it’s futile.

    To them it’s a holy war, between good and evil. And they’re good because God decreed them as “the chosen people,” so they don’t have to examine their thoughts and deeds, because if they follow their Holy Books, they’re good by definition – which makes everybody else “evil.”

    The God of the Old Testament served its purpose when the Hebrews were enslaved – to help them overcome that condition and find their identity (to be found in “the Promised Land.” Such a god should have served its purpose, but it never came to be. Consequently, by clinging to such a God, the Jews are in a perennial state of enslavement – to their own state of being.

    It’s a vicious circle of pain, sense of victimization, and suffering, when only deliverance (Messiah) can put an end to it. Yet, all the while as they’re looking for the deliverance and paying homage to their god of deliverance, they’re in chains: there is no liberation of the psyche and the spirit.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Inside Story – Israeli settler violence – 18 Jun 08 – Part 1

    Palestinians face settler violence on a daily basis. The incidents are reported to the police by B’Tselem, but no action is taken. When people report the violence to the IDF, sometimes the victims are punished.

    By victims, you will see an elderly woman and Palestinian shepherds who have been beaten with sticks where settlers went onto Palestinian grazing land to attack, because they claim the sheep came too close to the illegal settlement.

    Video recording cameras are provided by B’Tselem especially where repeat attacks have been made, such as in the above case. Without evidence via video, nothing will be done at all.

    And this is why the settlers despise cameras. Not because of some Malarkey about holy days.

    On what holy days are Jews supposed to hide their faces with masks and enter a grazing meadow to beat elderly people with sticks?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Nothing is going to convince Ruvy or Jeff; it’s futile.

    I would never bother trying to convince them. My only goal is to convince someone who might look here and see something they didn’t know before.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Looking at the actions of militant Jews, Christians and Muslims, it is increasingly obvious that it is the god delusion that is the enemy of all people.

    It has corrupted the minds of people like Ruvy or terrorists of all descriptions and allegiances beyond anything that can be considered rational, decent, loving or constructive.

    The net result of all this killing in the name of will be to cause such widespread revulsion as to make more and more people abandon superstition and fear, and all the corruption and hypocrisy that goes with it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #256

    Just like the cops despised the cameras in the Rodney King affair. Anybody who’s up to no good “despises” cameras because they don’t want to get caught with their pants down.

    No different with “the settlers.”

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Roger, will you be just as easily swayed by a few clever propaganda videos showing the situation from the other side?

    They’re easy to find if you feel like being swayed into thinking Israel is all lovey-dovey and the home of freedom and democracy while all Arabs strap bombs to their babies and eat and drink jihad all day long.

    Neither perspective is correct and neither the Isrealis nor the Palestinians are monsters. They’re just people trying to survive. If there are real bad guys they are the people outside the area who provoke and encourage the violence from both sides.

    On another topic, keep in mind that the Palestinians are “settlers” too. Most of the regions they currently occupy were virtually vacant 30 or 40 years ago. They were forced into the area from other parts of the middle east as refugees and very little of that was Israel’s doing. It was a deliberate plan to create a buffer state around Israel and provide a constant threat and irritant on its borders.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Dave,

    Will respond later; could we though close the italics tag, new article, next to last page?
    Sorry for not closing it in my submission. I think italics should apply only to “afford.”

    Roger

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dave’s assertions are tactics to create doubt about evidence presented to disparage actual video evidence while not presenting any evidence whatsoever of his own claims.

    Like everything else Dave thinks, he seems to start with a belief and then ignore everything that doesn’t fall into line with it. He then presents some flimsy argument, like he did in 260, making disparaging someone’s ACTUAL evidence, without providing any proof of his own. Creating a doubt in a few sentences with nothing but his mouth for proof.

    Dave, please provide video evidence of Palestinians instituting apartheid actions against Israeli communities.

    Please show me the humanitarian aid groups that are needed by Israelis in order to just get basic needs met. Show me the peace groups and humanitarian groups that endorse your statements Dave.

    Show me the Palestinian army that keeps Israelis from walking down streets, fishing, harvesting crops, grazing animals, living in their homes

    Your assertions are manipulations suggesting evidence that does not exist.

    Put up or shut up Dave.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    There is one thing Dave’s comments in 260 has solidified in my mind. The certainty that Dave is as devoted a fundamentalist ideologue as Ruvy is. Fortunately he doesn’t have affiliations with religious or other groups that have any influence on anyone.

    Why present proof when you can just smoke up the room.

  • Cannonshop

    262 “Please show me the humanitarian aid groups that are needed by Israelis in order to just get basic needs met. Show me the peace groups and humanitarian groups that endorse your statements Dave.”

    Might consider that the Israelis don’t need these things, because they don’t rely on them as a short-cut to buying weapons and explosives to be used on city transit bus-routes, concealed mines, or katyusha rockets, Cindy.

    When the choice is between feeding your family and waging a war, most people pick family first-when the option of doing both is available, if they hate someone enough, they’ll do both. From 2002 to 2008, the PA was home to artillery and mortars aimed and fired on a frequent basis into Israeli neighbourhoods-that shit costs money, and “Humanitarian Aid” allowed the PA to purchase that shit without worrying about how they would feed their dependents.

    “Peace groups” and “Peace Talks” don’t produce “Peace” when one or more of the combatant factions has no desire for, nor internally percieved need of it.

    It’s “Guns or Butter”, and when there’s a third party willing, yeay, even EAGER to provide the Butter, there’s no compulsion to reduce the guns, and when the “International Community” Rewards actions like suicide bombing with MORE aid, well…

    if the PA/Hamas loved their children as much as the Israelis did, there’d be no reason to blockade Gaza, no reason for checkpoints, no reason for guys like Ruvy to be all foamy nearly all the time. Fact is, they see kids as delivery systems for explosives and/or weapons, not much different from a round of AK-47 ammo, and they see folks like you as VERY useful idiots and fellow-travellers. Dupes, Cindy, persons easily fooled and swayed to supporting their cause without knowing what that cause is, or what it demands as an endpoint.

    back when Britain still controlled the real-estate, the surrounding Arab nations expelled their jewish populations and seized the property of those jews. They also sent volunteers to join the SS and fight for the Nazis-this isn’t gilding the lilly, it’s history-it provides context for what’s going on NOW. In 1948, the Israelis won the first of a series of battles for their existence as a nation-for a while it was averaging about ten years between invasions. (1956, 1967, 1973). When the Arab nations found out that even ‘Blank cheque’ soviet arms shipments and advisory support weren’t working, they shifted to supporting “Insurgencies” (much like the Soviet Union did in other areas of the third world, including S. America and S.E. Asia). Munich in ’72 was a great example of this, as was the Achille Lauro incident and the Lebanese civil war.

    Naturally, it would appear that folk such as yourself have no respect for a nation that’s managed to beat back five invasions in as many decades, while building an industrial base and agricultural base on some of the shittiest land on earth, while dealing with a violent, genocidal insurgency supported by the wealthiest individuals on the planet (that oil-money’s serious cash..constantly replenished by the west…) that still manages to have the closest thing to a liberal-western-democracy in the middle east (a region more known for its variety and choice of tyrannies than electoral republics, witness Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Ethiopia and Sudan, or Egypt under Nassir).

    It’s very simple-if the Israelis surrender and give up fighting, all that is going to happen, is that the Arabs around them get a chance to correct Hitler’s failure and finish them off.

    It’s no joke, no game, and there’s no reset button. This is what IS, not what we would LIKE it to be.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Please see my blog for a detailed map of Palestinian land loss from 1946 – 2000.

    Then we can see if Palestinians and Israelis are both “settlers” in the very equal way Dave made things to sound. As if Palestinians are there and are settlers just the same as the Israelis.

    Dave implies that Arabs settlers have been sent in to ‘surround Israelis’ and encroach on them making the feel unsafe.

    Cannonshop claims:

    “It’s very simple-if the Israelis surrender and give up fighting, all that is going to happen, is that the Arabs around them get a chance to correct Hitler’s failure and finish them off.”

    Look at the map. Judge for yourself who is surrounded by whom.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Israel’s Usurpation of Palestinian Water in the West Bank

    Please see sections 4.2.4, 4.3, 4.3.1, and 4.3.2 on page 44, here of Water Resources in the Middle East, for information about the confiscation of Palestinian lands and farms, the smashing of their wells and other laws created and imposed to deprive Palestinians of water from their own wells and use of the Jordan River enforced by Israeli military orders. (This is all on a single page of a few paragraphs.)

    The Apartheid Wall

    Please see this map for a close up of Israel’s Apartheid Wall that surrounds Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza. Family members are often separated and unable to make contact with one another.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Cannon (#264),those are the tactics of guerrilla warfare. Perhaps if they were given the legitimacy of a state so they wouldn’t feel their lands are being occupied, the nature of the conflict might change.

    Your position, besides, presupposes the PA has no cause and that Israel is squeaky clean (“useful idiot” language). For you to be able to use that already worn-out phrase authoratively, you ought to be infinitely more familiar with what’s really going on in there, and with both sides to the conflict – almost being in the position of “an insider”; only then would your words carry any weight. Even Ruvy, living there as he is, hardly in that position. Consequently, your usage of such terms is nothing but a put down of someone who sees the world picture in different, disagreeable to you, terms. So let’s look at that, too.

    Lastly, you’re speaking of the Palestinians of not caring for their children, as though they were human monsters. Well, there are different interpretations of that. First, it’s been known that Al Queda would pay the families of would-be suicide-bombers substantial amounts, so consent here may be a reflection of the abject poverty they’re living in. And second, it may as well be a reflection of the kind of desperate, bitter fight it is that even children are a part of it.

    One way or another, the real situation (or “the facts on the ground,” another useful propaganda buzz term to shoot down the opposing view) may not be translatable into such clean-cut terms that you have delineated. It’s certainly not all just black and white.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    It doesn’t matter what the goyim think – it matters what we do

    David ben-Gurion

    Ben-Gurion was an evil man with much Jewish blood on his hands (see the Tranfer Agreement with the Nazis, his co-operation with the British enemy regarding the Etze”l between 1944 and 1948, and his orders to kill Jewish soldiers and sailers on the Altalena in June, 1948). Those are unfortunate and painful facts that stain his reputation as Israel’s first real leader in war in 14 centuries, and first prime minister.

    But his quote above is what separates the bent back kike begging for scraps from the goyim – like all of the prime ministers here since YitzHaq Shamir was overthrown – and too many “secular” Jews, both here and in Exile. To name some names, we can refer to B’tzelem, Peace Now, Norm Finkelstein, Roger Cohen, Ariel Sharon, Moshe Dayan, Eric Yoffie, and a host of other disgusting trash – as opposed to Jews with steel in their spines, men of real honor and courage, heroes, such individuals as Vladimir Jabotinsky, z”l, Avraham Shtern, z”l, hy”d, David Raziel, z”l, hy”d, Mordekhai AlkaHi, z”l, hy”d, and Rav Meir Kahane, z”l, hy”d.

    I forgot that basic rule when reading this agitprop piece of garbage posted by “Tolstoy’s Cat” as “breaking news”.

    I have made unfortunate comments here, motivated by the built up anger over several years (if not decades) at the hypocrisy and lies the mass media perpertrate about my people, the insidious Jew-hatred that has come to infest the European and American media and the catering and pandering to murderers and paedophiles like Yassir Arafat, may his memory be erased from under the heavens, and the smearing of the good names of decent Jews, innocent and G-d-fearing people like Dr. Baruch Goldstein, z”l, hy”d.

    I have not been wrong in anything I said. I have been right – and right on the money. The lies here have been perpetrated by the author of this article, who repeats the Arab propaganda line as though it were the gospel truth, who believes liars and self-hating Jews like Norm Finkelstein and who places her trust in men who believe as a matter of course in female gential mutilation, murdering, beating and abusing women children and animals, slavery (particularly sexual slavery), murdering homosexuals, and in killing Jews. These are the fine individuals of Hamas, el-FataH, HizbAllah, the leaders of the “poor Palestinians” she (and her other heroes like B’tzelem and Peace Now), would have you admire.

    Not only are these Arabs savages, they are the spritual decendants of the Nazis that the author allegedly hates. These are the heroes of an “anarchist”.

    The fact that I live here, and that my children, wife and I place our lives on the line every single day we awaken, was not an excuse to lose one’s temper. The fact that the evil written here by the author and her “supporters” is the prattling of ignorant fools who live overseas is not an excuse to use less than proper English in discourse.

    Who is strong? He who can govern his temper.

    I have been unforgivably weak in my comments here. I apologize for my weakness. That will not happen again.

    But, I stand by my opinions.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My thanks to Jeff and Cannonshop for their support on this comment thread, that I have made all too long in my weakness and anger at hyposcrisy and lies.

    This entire event – the sending of the boat with the has-been congresswoman and Nobel laureate as bait for the paparrazzi – and the response of the Israel Defense Force unddr the traitor Ehud Barak – has been a showboat opeeration – a dog and pony show. It was not news – it was barely worth two lines on the back page of the National Enquirer. Tolstoy’s Cat indeed got a scoop – for cat faeces. It is a sad commentary on the “news” media that this story got anywhere at all.

    Even the shootout on the Exodus 1947 was actually news. There was a shootout on a boat full of people trying to break an illegal blockade imposed by a nation that had betrayed its Mandate, solemnly sworn, so that the boastload of people would have a home, a place to live that was not a rat infested DP camp. And most of those people had to wait for the independence of the State in order to actually come home – they were interned by the British elsewhere – in another DP camp. But it was news because there was a shoot-out with casualties.

    But this comedy?

    A has-been politician, a bunch of “NGO’s” the types who infest the UN an produce Jew-hating and Israel-hating propaganda on American taxpayer mnoney, were comfortably ensconced on this little boat along with toys and medicine for the Strip that could have just as easily been sent in by truck.

    That wassn’t a news story – it was a publicity stunt! Defense MInister Barak gave the whole stunt the color of news by “arresting” the occupants of the boat. But Cynthia McKinney did not have a club shoved into her vaina, as did one Jewisd girl who protesred the then forthcoming expulsion of Jews from Gaza. Nobody’s testcles or skull ws crushed, as happened to two young men who protested the police pogrom at ‘Amona in 2006.

    There was no real news here at all!

    In my anger at the Arab agit-prop piece put out by Tolstoy’s Cat, I forgot that fact as well – I who have participated in quite a noumber of dog and pony shows and who should have known better! She believes in this garbage. On cannot fault her for pushing the cat faeces she thinks is as wonderful as gold to unsuspecting eyes.

    But I should have known better and stayed away altogether, not gracing it with a repsonse at all.

    My apologies to you all, and my congratulations to Cindy for getting me to prolong the life of a “story about nothing”. She did well.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Or what Ruvy should have written: “I have made unfortunate comments here…

    The fact that I live here, and that my children, wife and I place our lives on the line every single day we awaken, was not an excuse to lose one’s temper…

    Who is strong? He who can govern his temper. I have been unforgivably weak in my comments here. I apologize… That will not happen again.”

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    However, despite the passive/aggressive verbosity, we should accept, respect and welcome the apology, so well done, Ruvy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Concerning the link to “the wall” (#266), there’s only one way to call it: it’s a ghetto.

    Sweet irony!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Exactly, Ruvy.

    Anger is a poor response to views you regard as foolish. There may be many reasons why people have foolish views – ignorance, lack of facts, or simply a different perspective. Ultimately, views are less important than people (although I’m not certain you’ll buy into this proposition). So the way to win anyone to your side, you’ve got to win them as people; truth apart from people is meaningless, and to focus on truth and only the truth is to miss the bigger picture, no?

    Now, if Cindy & co were “evil at heart,” that’d be another story. But even then, concern for humans should take precedence.
    There are always exceptions: Hitler, Stalin and other mass murderers. But I don’t think anyone within the BC community qualifies.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dave, please provide video evidence of Palestinians instituting apartheid actions against Israeli communities.

    That’s about as unreasonable a demand as asking for evidence of Jews putting Germans in concentration camps during World War 2.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger, Dave,

    This is my final comment on this thread. There will bve no others – at all. I will contribute nothing more to Cindy’s nothing of a story.

    Dave’s comment #260 displays the his knowledge and understanding of this region as a someone who grew up here – and as someone who tends to side with the Arabs, because they are the people he grew up with and naturally sympathizes with.

    Cindy’s dismissal of it displays for us all to see, her fundamental ignorance of this region, and here reliance on the agitprop garbage she gets frokm her “anarchist” friends. When it comnes to this part of the world, truth and reality are as far away for her as Alpha Centauri is from the rest of us.

    keep in mind that the Palestinians are “settlers” too. Most of the regions they currently occupy were virtually vacant 30 or 40 years ago. They were forced into the area from other parts of the middle east as refugees and very little of that was Israel’s doing. It was a deliberate plan to create a buffer state around Israel and provide a constant threat and irritant on its borders.

    That’s odd – the one kid from the Arab side of the border who writes here corroborates the several kids I know from the Jewish side of the border. Samaria was virually empty 70 years ago. Why? There were only a few towns and villages and shepherds. Why did the Arabs come? They came either in refugee camps, or for the most part, because Israelis building in villages were providing work.

    In 1983, when Ma’ale Levona was converted from n IDF listening post to a village, there were only two Arab villages in the whole region, both roughly along the Patriarch’s Road that runs near Highway 60 here. Today, Arab villages are all over the place, and Sinjel, the village at the bottom of Levona, is a town with buildings of several stories. The other village, whose name escapes me at the moment, but which was where Sirhan Sirhan, the man who killed Robert Kennedy was from, has become a small city with a beautifully well lit road leading into it and billboards all over the place. This place has the feel, in may ways, of upstate New York – except in Arabic and Hebrew. Plenty of Arab cars traverse Highway 60. In this part of the country, Arabs are living reasonably well. Ramallah has small skyscrapers.

    The image of “the poor Palestinian” is a media creation designed to keep people like Cindy on the sympathy rope. And I’m cutting my connection to her sympathy rope

    NOW.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Photostory: Israeli bulldozer driver murders American peace activist

    The Murder of Rachel Corrie, a 23 year old peace activist, acting in accordance with non-violent principles of protest along the lines of MLK and Gandhi. Rachel Corrie while wearing clearly marked orange dayglow reflective clothing was run over twice by a member of the Israeli military driving a bulldozer, while attempting to block the destruction of a Palestinian home. Photographs of Rachel are included, before and after her death.

    The play about Rachel’s life and experiences in Israel/Palestine has been repeatedly censored, its performances stopped in the U.S.–even in NYC.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I understand your reasons, Ruvy, although I don’t view Dave’s remarks as “being sympathetic with the Arabs” but more or less evenhanded. (He warns me, doesn’t he? about paying to much credence to “Arab propaganda,” so you can’t discard that, not really.)

    Personally, I admit I do not know enough about what are “the facts on the ground,” nor do I care to get into the history of the region in sufficient detail as to be able to adjudicate the rights and the wrongs, and who has got the right to the land and who does not, and who is the good guy and who is the bad – etcetera, etcetera. There already are plenty enough people who do this, and I say, good luck to them.

    All I’m saying, and this is my position, especially since seeing the videos and other information that Cindy provided, that there are at least two sides to this story: and from what little I have seen the Israeli armed forces conduct themselves, I was appalled (unless again, some would care to argue these images were “doctored.” So again, my position is: there is propaganda on both sides – not just the Arab side.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Israeli Military Murder Gaza Farmer

    The IDF simply starts shooting at a group of Palestinians as they are picking vegetables, murdering one man.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    The above is a video. It is perfectly clear what happens. The IDF simply starts shooting at people.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Israeli Soldiers Shooting at Farmers in Abassan Jedida

    News like this report is regularly suppressed by the Israeli govt. and IDF. Channel 2 in Israel breaks embargo on airing report. An Israeli official spokesperson says that channel 2 should have ‘self-censored’. A soldier in the report says this: “I’don’t know what we’re doing here. Purification maybe. It’s dirty here. I don’t know why a good Hebrew boy should be here…”

    GAZA FISHING BOATS ATTACKED BY ISRAELI GUNBOATS Oct 5 2008

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I think you’ve made your point now, Cindy…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    To add to #277:

    I don’t see this conflict as a “Holy War,” Ruvy, whereas you do, and that’s where we come to irreconcilable differences. But since you’ve made your decision not to post on this thread anymore, I respect that and will not make any direct address.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Naomi Klein: Oppose The State, Not The People
    By Yotam Feldman – July 2nd, 2009
    Published in Ha’aretz

    “There is a debate among Jews – I’m a Jew by the way,” she said. The debate boils down to the question: “Never again to everyone, or never again to us?… [Some Jews] even think we get one get-away-with-genocide-free card…There is another strain in the Jewish tradition that say, ‘Never again to anyone.'”

    (published yesterday…)

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I wish you were right Christopher. But somehow I doubt that’s true. In fact, making points seems a waste of time with people.

    I invited people here to read this article. They came and were so appalled by what one called ‘apartheid trolls’ that they didn’t even want to comment here. They don’t waste their time like I do.

    Out of respect for Ruvy, I didn’t discuss this subject all through the bombing of Gaza. I didn’t even press it in this thread. But since Ruvy chose to push me and push me…even after I had left off the subject. Now, I am having my say.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I am done…until one of them posts again.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Do you have the link to the article in #283?

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Here you go Roger. The article from Naomi Klein’s web site.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    That’s about as unreasonable a demand as asking for evidence of Jews putting Germans in concentration camps during World War 2.

    Indeed it is. And yet most people I talk to have no real idea what is happening. Or what things even look like over there. They talk about it, like Cannonshop, as if it is some war between two nations, instead of what it really is.
    ——-

    In regards to Cannon’s comment about humanitarian aid. Many of those offering the aid are Jewish groups from within Israel.

    B’Tselem, the organization that gives out the cameras is an Israeli organization. They too live in right Israel and have a point of view.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I for one was shocked. Had no idea IDF had such freedom of operation. The occupied territories (how else to refer to isolated pockets where the majority of Palestinians live?) are under the marshal law more or less. Add to this active resistance fronts like Hamas and Hezbollah, and you’ve got innocent civilians and active militants all thrown into the mix in what certainly is more of a guerrilla warfare than war between nations. So what does it matter whether the little snippets we get come from Arab media sources (like Al Jazeera) rather than Israeli networks. It stands to reason the latter would tend to suppress all evidence of Israel’s complicity in the affair.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It stands to reason the latter would tend to suppress all evidence of Israel’s complicity in the affair.

    Bingo Roger!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, please provide video evidence of Palestinians instituting apartheid actions against Israeli communities.

    Please show me the humanitarian aid groups that are needed by Israelis in order to just get basic needs met. Show me the peace groups and humanitarian groups that endorse your statements Dave.

    Show me the Palestinian army that keeps Israelis from walking down streets, fishing, harvesting crops, grazing animals, living in their homes

    Cindy, when did I ever claim that any of these things exist. The methods of Israel are the methods of an oppressive state — I think that’s a large part of the reason why you take sides against them. The methods of the Arabs/Palestinians are different because they are not in a position of control, but they are just as bad in their own right. The fact that they are oppressed does not excuse attacks against civilians and Hamas is as much or more of an oppressor in its way as Israel is.

    What you are consistently missing is that there are not TWO sides to this conflict. There are at least three and perhaps four. There are Israel and Hamas and then there are the civilians of the region who are put upon and abused by both entities. Those victims deserve our concern, but they deserve it whether they are Israelis or Arabs, and legitimizing and supporting the Hamas oppressors rather than the Israeli oppressors as McKinney and her ilk do is NOT the answer. It’s just picking one group of murderers over another. You’re still siding with murderers agains the people.

    Dave

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I didn’t say you claimed those things Dave. I said show me evidence of those things. You said there are two sides and implied they are equal. Now you imply that one is more at fault. I want to see where Israel and Hamas are equal in their terrorist activities. Or where Hamas is more at fault. I want to know why you think that.

    You saythings like Palestinian settlers are sent in to surround Israelis. That is not what I see when I look at a map Dave.

    Innocent Jews don’t deserve to die by Hamas rockets. But in between the rockets fired there are million of people being subjugated daily and often murdered at will by Israel.

    Why don’t you care about those people Dave?

    Free Gaza defends Palestinians imprisoned in a ghetto by a brutal and powerful government military and you say that defending them and raising awareness is supporting Hamas? Why?

    The sides are not equal. One side has a very powerful and oppressive govt.

    Dave please provide any evidence that McKinney or the Free Gaza movement support Hamas.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Saudis and US have told Israel they will not stand in the way re: an attack on Iran. Saudis have told Israel they can use Saudi airspace. Biden mum on use of Iraq airspace.

    Biden quoted Jan. 2008 as saying that Israel will have to reconcile itself to a nuclear Iran.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #293 seems contradictory on face value.

  • Cannonshop

    Cindy, Rachael Corrie gave her life to protect the flow of arms used to kill Israelis, end-point-stop. That’s accessory at minimum, and takes her out of the pool of “innocent victims” or “Innocent Bystanders” by a wide margin. The structure they were bulldozing was an ‘end point’ for an arms-smuggling tunnel. The nicest thing you can say is that she might not have known it-which just makes her collateral damage and a dupe who basically earned what she got.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The nicest thing you can say is that she might not have known it-which just makes her collateral damage and a dupe who basically earned what she got.”

    Not quite. “To kill Israelis” already presupposes a point of view that Israelis are in the right and armed resistance wrong. And so, one could say of Rachael Corrie that she gave her life for a cause.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I didn’t say you claimed those things Dave. I said show me evidence of those things.

    The burden of proof rests with you, not me.

    You said there are two sides and implied they are equal. Now you imply that one is more at fault.

    Actually, I said there are more than two sides. There are the Israeli government, Hamas, the innocent people of the region and the arab/muslim powers of the region. They all play different roles.

    I want to see where Israel and Hamas are equal in their terrorist activities. Or where Hamas is more at fault. I want to know why you think that.

    I never said they were equal, just that neither is innocent. You seem to want to put all the blame on Israel and not hold Hamas and its supporters accountable. My point is that Hamas both attacks Israel and oppresses its own people which makes it worse in a way.

    You saythings like Palestinian settlers are sent in to surround Israelis. That is not what I see when I look at a map Dave.

    Look at history, Cindy. They were forced into key strategic areas to form a buffer zone. It’s not an issue for debate, just historic fact.

    Innocent Jews don’t deserve to die by Hamas rockets. But in between the rockets fired there are million of people being subjugated daily and often murdered at will by Israel.

    You’re looking at it wrong. They are being forced into that oppression by Hamas. Not only does Hamas oppress and terrorize the Palestinian people, but it also provokes a great deal of what Israel does. Were Hamas out of the picture then Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians would likely change for the better in substantial ways because they would cease to be a direct threat.

    Why don’t you care about those people Dave?

    Why do you support their main oppressors? I do care, but I also look at the situation honestly.

    Free Gaza defends Palestinians imprisoned in a ghetto by a brutal and powerful government military and you say that defending them and raising awareness is supporting Hamas? Why?

    Because attacking Israel and treating Hamas as if it is a legitimate power in the region empowers Hamas and they are the root cause of the entire problem.

    Dave
    [Edited]

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dave,

    The burden of proof rests with you, not me.

    I’ve met the burden of proof. All you have is your biased beliefs, with no evidence.

    It’s Hamas who is really oppressing the Palestinians, not Israel? You expect to be taken seriously?

    Israel made Hamas what it is Dave. Israel funded Hamas. And Israel was occupying and oppressing the Palestinian people long before it did so.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    The nicest thing I can say is that Cannonshop presents one side (as usual). [Edited]

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    This is an nice condensed description of how Israel created Hamas, from the documentary Inside Hamas by UK’s respected, educational media producer: Channel 4.

    Divide and rule

    “Israel’s clandestine response, revealed later by former CIA officials, was to encourage the growth of religious groups among the Palestinians as a counterweight to the secular PLO. Israel allowed funds to be channelled to these groups from abroad to promote it at the expense of the secular PLO. It was trying to divide the Palestinian movement.

    Hamas, which prides itself today on its refusal to recognise Israel, grew out of an organisation called Al-Mujamma al Islami, a local arm of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

    Led by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, Al-Mujamma al Islami was legally registered in Israel in 1978. It widened its base through religious and social work, and formalised itself as Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement) in 1987.

    The best laid plans…

    As Hamas became much stronger than just a divisive counterweight, the Israeli establishment took fright. Yassin, once discreetly encouraged by Israel to undermine the PLO’s support, was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter gunship in 2004.

    Some Israelis were worried that they had helped create a Frankenstein’s monster but others saw further benefits. They believed that any willingness by Fatah to make compromises for peace would be torpedoed by Hamas rejectionists, leaving the status quo unaltered, with the Occupied Palestinian Territories still in Israeli hands.”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Normally, I would stay away from this thread. the article underlying it wasa the description of a mere horse and pony show, an agit-prop stunt by people who are terrorist running dogs who masquerade as “peace activists”.

    But, Cindy is right on the money on the origins of Hamas. And when she is right, she deserves credit.

    When the strategic decision was taken to back an Islamic religious organization in the 1970’s to weaken el-FataH, the consensus in Israel was that there was to be no independent Arab state in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

    This strategic consensus broke down in the 1980’s when the Labor Party jettisoned its socialist ideology and pursued Arabs as an electoral base. So, all of a sudden, it was necessary to reach an agreement with one of the Arab terror groups, and the secular Israeli establishment understood the secular el-Fatah a whole lot better than the bearded mullahs of Hamas. Both groups were devoted to massacring Jews and establishing a judenrein “Palestine”.

    The essential difference (still seen today) is that el-FatraH prefers to loot and then kill, and Hamas prefers to kill first, and then loot. But the secular Israeli leadership only saw in Hamas violent Arab “Hassids”.

    The problem was that the Israeli secular leadership was (and still is) woefully ignorant of the enemy they were dealing with. BOTH el-FataH and Hamas drew their basic inspiration from the Wahhabi controlled Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt. Had these G-d hating (Israeli) fools had any understanding or respect for their Arab neighbors, they would have encouraged the growth of Moslem religious groups taking their inspiration not from the heretical Wahhabi, but from the peace-loviong Sufi. A Sufi organization would do good works, take away from the violence of el-FataH and encourage peaceful coexistence with Jews, as well as developing relationships built on trust and respect.

    You need to be a G-d fearing Jew to even comprehend this, and you need to understand something of Islam to find the way to undercut the heretics of the Wahhabi.

    But too much blood has been spilt in the last 30 years to undo the stupid mistakes of the arrogant, ignorant secular Jewish establishment that ran and still runs Israel.

    So more blood will have to be spilt to correct them. Truly a tragedy.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Oh well, not quite unpaginated are we? I guess I celebrated too soon.

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