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Iran’s Bold Move

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With all the world watching the collapse of the Middle East, the union protests in Wisconsin and crushing debt of the industrialized world, very little attention is being given toward what is happening in Iran.  Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Sunday called on Muslims to “remove” the US from the Islamic world. Furthermore, in a reference to the USA’s military, Khamenei ridiculed the USA’s power, saying the country’s arch-foe was currently weak.

We are accustomed to Iran’s belligerence toward the United States within the safe confines of its own national boundaries or at the United Nations General Assembly, and Iran has also been openly provocative in its hatred toward Israel. But the disturbance in the Middle East has shocked the world and suddenly Iran is right in the middle of the fray. On the one hand, it praised the Egyptian protesters, but what goes around comes around. When the protests erupted into the streets of Tehran, the Iranian regime launched a brutal and bloody crackdown in much the same way that Gaddafi has left the streets of Tripoli “littered with bodies.”

For the first time in thirty years, Egypt has confirmed that Iran’s naval ships have crossed the Suez Canal. So why would Iran send warships to Syria at a time when the entire region is collapsing?

The USA received a blunt notice from the Iranian leader Sunday: stay out of our neighborhood. Not since the days when Jimmy Carter was president has our nation been so publicly threatened and targeted for removal from the entire Middle East by a foreign power.

During the Egyptian revolution I wrote an article titled Egypt’s Grand Opportunity for Change. Like many others around the world, I prayed that the Egyptian people would win their freedom.

But the Iranian leader, Khamenei, has a different idea. On Sunday he announced to the world that the revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia and nations in the Middle East are not the actions of the people seeking freedom from religious tyranny, but are Islamic and must be consolidated.

This is perhaps the first clue we have received which may explain Iran’s ambitious move. Iran has vowed to wipe Israel off the map, and sending the war ships through the Suez Canal is a symbolic act that projects Iran’s military power toward that stated goal . It also distracts the Iranian population, which no doubt takes great pride in its war ships advancing toward Israel through the Suez Canal. It arouses the Iranian people’s pride in their country and puts forward the image of a rising Persian empire. It is a calculated effort to assert Iran’s power and take advantage of the meltdown in the Middle East, while simultaneously distracting the Iranian people from continuing with their own revolution.

When the supreme Iranian leader calls for all Arabs to unite as Islamic nations, he presumes to speak for the Arab world as its leader, and when he demands that the USA must be removed from the Middle East, he is calling upon Arab nations to take united action. And when he sends those war ships through the Suez Canal, he takes on the Arab world’s arch enemy, Israel. It could also be construed as a direct appeal to the Muslim Brotherhood, which has great influence in Egypt. This is a bold move on behalf of Iran to hijack the legitimate revolution of people hungry for freedom. In the same way that the mullahs took over Iran’s revolution, Iran is attempting to unite the Arab world to a common cause, the destruction of Israel. The image of Iranian war ships moving through the Suez Canal is an in-your-face move against both the USA and Israel. Let’s be honest about it, Iran’s bold move to take advantage of the current unrest in the Middle East has the potential to set the entire Middle East on fire, and that is a frightening thought .

As a nation, there is a lesson to be learned from Iran’s continuous threats against Israel and now the USA: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. President Jimmy Carter was humiliated by the Iranians, in part because he failed to heed the warnings from intelligence sources, including Israel. If President Obama does not have influence over the events unfolding in the Middle East, he may very well fall into the same Iranian trap as Jimmy Carter did.

We may be a poorer nation than we were a few years ago because of our national debt, but we still have the strongest military in the world and much of our military assets are located on or near the borders of Iran. It is time for the USA and the rest of the world to wake up and realize that Iran is not bluffing; they are playing for keeps, and if we are to take them at their word, it is a war that they want.

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About DouglasWWallace

  • HK

    Way to rouse the troops! What time do you plan on going to the conscription office to sign up for your war with Iran?

  • HK 2

    YEAH…bravo!!

    What time do you plan on going to the conscription office to sign up for your war with Iran?

  • Richard E

    HK I don’t think the author was advocating war. He pointed out that Iran is threatening war, and seemed to be suggesting that sending the war ships through the canal was Iran’s step closer toward provocation. I don’t think he has revealed anything new. Sounds to me like you are a little too sensitive to this issue. If Iran and Israel want to go after each other, or if North Korea and South Korea want to fight it out, there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them. So, chill out,it’s just the reality of what is happening in the world right now.

  • Parviz Tehrani

    I am an Iranian.
    The biggest victim of the regime in Tehran is the Iranian people who have been suffering for 33 years! Iran is much weaker than the image you are describing. It has less than 1% of the US power and no, the Iranian people (who at 99% are against the regime) do not take pride in having 2 stupid boats cross the Suez canal lead by the dictatorial regime!

    One day Iran will be free and you will find in the Iranian people the best partners.

    PT

  • Jonas68

    Hardly a bold move…more of a deflection, unrest is brewing at home in Iran as well. The leaders of Iran have been giving blunt notices to US before. Seems to me any which way the wind blows is dangerous to Israel.

    Get serious folks a 1960’s Warship and a supply ship moving through the Suez…yes I bet Iranian people are sitting behind their TV sets and taking pride and then going outside to have their skulls bashed in by the Mullah Militia.

    This article is a clear case of filler material.

  • Another Iranian

    Thanks Tehrani. Let another Iraninan weigh in their point as well and that is that no logical Iranian shows any pride in two ships crossing the Suez as an advancement for our people. It is the exact opposite. We know the dangerous mindset of these crazy leaders in Iran more than anyone and there is no pride that goes with it. We prefer not to be on the recieving end of another mindless war or their brutal batons. Oh and yes, they do mean business!

  • Richard E

    I agree with your points Jonas68. Particularly your reference, as well as that of PT, that the Iranian people are afraid of the dictatorial regime. It’s the Iranian regime’s desire to hold on to power that is at issue. How far are they willing to go to keep a grip on the Iranian people? According to the link in this article, Ghaddafi used fighter jets to gun down civilians and imported mercenaries from Russia to kill his own people. What worries me is to what extent will the Mullahs go to hold on to power. And, I also agree with the author on one other point. There are many in the Arab world that would be inspired to see Iran wipe Israel off the map. Otherwise, more Arab countries would be speaking out, critizing Iran for such outlandish provocation.

  • Person

    I like the Iranian traitors posting on this site. Their either Israelis posting as Iranians or a tiny minority of confused people.

  • Jonas68

    To Person – Says you. Your powers of seeing beyond are admirable. No doubt you were one of those blessed few who saw a halo around Ahmadinejad head at UN…or is your post a mild threat to those “Iranian Traitors” to not post?

    Good to be the court of the King or or more accurately the Ayatollah is it not?

    Have you heard of freedom of speech? Has such a thing has crossed your mind that just because one express his/her opinion it does not mean he/she is a traitor…goodness can a skull be so thick?!

  • Person

    To Jonas68:

    1) The US killed more protesters in its Civil War than anyone ever has or will. Where was their freedom of speech? The list goes on.

    2) Here is what most people in Iran think

  • Jonas68

    To Person – Civil War?! That is how far back you had to go nearly 200 years? I am not American btw and not defending America here. I thought we were talking about Iran. If this communication that you and I are having would take place in Iran, no doubt I would be deported or in Jail.
    I saw the clip, yes impressive number of people on the street, how many of them bused in we will side step for now, but can you say members of opposition can have the same sort of Rally enjoyed by Khamanei? That is freedom of speech to tolerate an opinion that you do not agree with…any of this sinking in?

  • Person

    Jonas:

    “I am…not defending America here”

    I see, you are defending Israel, I get it.

    Did the Branch Davidians of the 1990s also have freedom of speech? More than in Iran? I like how you hold Iran to a different standard than your patron, the US.

    How about this link, here

    Tell me, does Mossad pay well?

  • Reza Tavakolian

    As an Iranian American I am pride of the Islamic Republic of Iran and her economic and scientific acheavement in the face of limitation and forth set of sanction imposed on her by the protector of Zionist regime. Iran seeking peace and justice for all man kind. in that context Iran defends the legitimat right of Plestinian to their mother land which is accupied by foreign forces in the name of biblical religion. the Zionist regime in Israel claim it has right to that land because God give them that land over 5000 years ago, however it ignors the fact that palestinian lived in that land for the last 5000 years. and whatever claim Jewish people had is no longer legitimat. on the matter of Iranian armed forces coventional capability, the westen country in general and United State in particular have no illusion to be victorious in any direct conflect. Iran in conventional warfer is superior to Nato forces and or Israel or United State conventional forces and is prepared for such possible conflect for the last 25 years. in the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, the Israel used American state of art weopenery and air power, however suffered a humiliating defeat on the hand of Hezbollah and retreat. The weopens Hezbollah used in that war was not made in United State or Russa, it was made in the Islamic Republic Of Iran. Remember Hezbollah is not even a regular armed forces.There is so much more to say about Iran progress which Is impossible in this comment, but I only say one more, LONG LIVE THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN.

  • Jonas68

    To Person:

    [Edited] sorry to disappoint you but not Jewish or working for Mossad, and if you had the brain power to see my first post you would realize I am not defending Israel either. Curious to see what you come up with next.

    We are talking about Iran so talk about Iran. Saw your video… there you go comparing Iran to US again… really need to get over your inferiority complex and compare Iran to Iran… but no point to continue this line of communication [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Person

    Amen Reza!

    Did you like how I scared Jonas [Edited] away?

    He wants to hold Iran up to an impossible standard and when people like us prove Iran is more fair than USA, he starts crying.

    Iran has been lock horns with the West for quite some time. In this context, comparing Iran to the USA is the definition of relevant.

    Since I know Jonas likes my links, here is a last one for him

  • Jonas68

    To Person –

    LOL. Wow how old are you? 12?

    Saw the Video… whoopie. I can overlook it if you are in Iran my friend because you would be cut off from the world and uninformed otherwise the thick skull theory again.

    Definition of Relevant to compare evil to evil? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I actually respect Amen Reza post. Good valid points and truths spoken from United States.

    All the best.

  • Person

    Good one Jonas. After losing a debate, badly, you call people 12 years old. I suggest you visit Iran instead of embarrassing yourself. [Edited]

    If you are in a US-owned territory (like Germany), you can find a similar agency. Keep learning please!

  • Jonas68

    Thx Person been to Iran, nice place, have you left Rasht?!

    Declaring victory for yourself I see. You do sound like Ahmadinejad and how he won the 2009 election.

  • Person

    If Jonas went to Iran then he wasted his money because he clearly did not learn anything. Maybe you should visit Iraq to gain more perspective.

    If you go to Iran again, please visit Qom and Mashhad. Iranian people do not want to be run by the West and we oppose US dictatorship in the world. Your attacks on our values and government only show you are a supporter of tyranny (I know, you will say “I don’t support either side”, I know).

  • Jonas68

    Been to Qom, been to Mashhad, both nice places although I prefer Shiraz. If anyone likes US dictatorship it is people like you so you can hide behind it. I suppose such an action can be forgiven considering US history in the region but types like you do worst and commit the ultimate sin, you hide behind god.
    Your value are yours not Iran’s stop confusing the two whenever you come short.

    So I repeat my question where have you been? Out of Rasht yet?

  • Person

    Jonas is no longer making sense.

    Why do you spend your energy complaining about Iran (doing propaganda work for free for Bush and Cheney) when it is the West with the blood of 1 million Iraqis and Afghans on their hands?

    Iran will never come close to that level of crime. So, as a part of the West, shut up and take care of your own crimes. Don’t delve into our internal affairs.

  • Jonas68

    you came short again and jumped to another tangent [Edited]. Why don’t you declare victory again or is it ok to end the “debate” with a shut up as you seemed to be doing?

    The Internet, unlike Iran, is free to express opinion.

    Whether you like it or not people of Iran want change so get used to it. It will be painful, people like you will make sure that it will be, but it will happen.

    Out of Rasht yet?

  • Person

    People like me will start listening to people like you when you set a better example.

    You, the West, have killed 1 million civilians in the Middle East since 2001. You have nothing to teach us.

    Out of San Francisco yet?

  • Jonas68

    Sorry not in San Francisco, been there though, nice place too. You would not like it there though it would remind you of who you really are.

    You are using technology developed in the west, how dumb can you be?

    People in Iran want change whether you like it or not so stop changing tangents and stop hiding.

    Still in Rasht I see?

  • Person

    You are only repeating yourself and being childish.

    Claiming to invent technology does not give you the right to lecture us on morality when you kill 1 million civilians.

    You cannot answer that point and it makes you angry, doesn’t it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    You’re raising an interesting set of questions, Douglas. No question you’re right about Iran’s bid to hijack the revolutions in the Middle East and Africa under the common Islamic banner. Establishing a worldwide Caliphate has always been the ambition of radical Islam, the idea being to create a government on earth that would approximate that in heaven. I find, however, that your concerns are not only premature but ill-founded.

    For starters, the Middle East – let’s call it Arabia from now on in memory of a prophet, T. E. Lawrence – is nowhere near as homogeneous are you imagine. The Iranians aren’t even Arabs for chrissake, a serious bone of contention, not to mention the usual division between the Sunnis and the Shiites within Islam. It’s not the idea of trying to see Islam triumphant that spurted these mass movements but being under the thumb of dictatorial regimes with the full blessing of Western imperialistic powers. A desire for freedom and autonomy are natural human responses and instincts. The people can be held back but only for so long. It is this what we’re seeing before our very eyes, an honest-to-goodness liberation movement that promises to spread like wildfire, and it’s got nothing to do with Islam. When so understood, it’s simply too big to be hijacked by Iran or any other fanatical ideology or group, unless you subscribe to politics of fear.

    Which brings me to my second point. You still seem to assessing the unfolding events from the limited American/Western perspective. Fuck that! We caused enough damage in the region as it is, and now it’s the time to get our just rewards. By all means, we ought to be kicked out of the Middle East and Africa and be kept out. It’s high time for the peoples of the region to take charge of its own destiny without our help or guidance. And if we, as a nation, can’t survive without meddling in other peoples’ business, so much the worse for us. Tough tittie!

    And no, my heart doesn’t bleed for imperialistic Israel, a small scale version of imperialistic USA.

    Arabia for the Arabs, Africa for the Africans.

  • Person

    Nice comment, Roger. It is good to see that some Westerners have some sense. Other Westerners want to nit-pick on Iran when the West has killed a million civilians since 2001.

    It seems that there are lot of incognito zionists in the West, like Jonas68, who pretend to be against crime, but put more energy on Iran propaganda than on what they are responsible for–their own, massive crimes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Just trying to keep things in perspective, Person. The world is changing and it surely promises to be a better place.

  • Person

    Yes, I hope so. I also want to say that I know for a fact that Jonas68 has never been to Iran (unless he is so old that we went there in the time of the Shah).

    If he had been there, he would not be a willing agent of Bush and Cheney, unless he went there as a Mossad spy, which he probably is.

    I like how he ran away without answering why he spends so much energy on Iran when he is a member of the West which quantitatively is the biggest criminal on earth in terms of human rights.

    How many people did Obama drone today in Pakistan? Not a peep out of Jonas on that one.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, Blogcritics welcomes a very broad range of opinions in the comments space.

    That said, what it doesn’t tolerate is people making personal attacks and unsupported accusations and we really don’t like it when people change other commenters names in a belittling or racist way.

    Please follow these simple guidelines or you may find yourself banned from participating here.

    Christopher Rose
    Blogcritics Comments Editor

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    On a personal note, in my view the worst force on the planet today is the monotheism you share with Jews and Christians, so you are no better than anybody else.

    Monotheism is the enemy of all humanity and does nothing but create false divisions amongst people.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’m finding all this amusing. “Person” castigates an American and Roger Nowosielski goes right along with him. Roger does not see what a useful idiot he is – and why people of his ilk – anarchists – are regarded with such contempt here.

    By the way, for the Persians who do not know, “here” is Israel.

    I happen to know from personal knowledge that the Mossad pays well. But I am not in such good physical shape to risk my life for their money. So, their money is beyond my reach.

    BUT, I also happen to know that Persia is a boiling pot of problems and it is likely that these ships are an attempt to deflect away from the crappy conditions there. After all, the poor slobs of the Basiji are not getting any more popular for treating their fellow Persians like dogs – and it is likely that if the critical mass of revolution is reached, the Basiji will run like rats and hide in the sewers – like the Securitate did in Romania. The Basiji have taught the Persian people well, and they will know how to hang these Basiji bastards high – along with the messianic mullahs and their bullshit “president” Ahmadinejad.

    So “person”, does the Basiji pay you $5,000 for your operations? Are you looking forward to a nice big fat check soon for keeping American useful idiots engages in self-congratulatory rhetoric? Just wondering. You know here in the Middle East, it is no shame to talk about making good money….

    Let me lay this on the line for you, “person”. I’m hoping for the sake of the Persian people, that your fellow citizens throw you and people who think like you in the toilet, and get rid of the sick fools ruining your country. If you do not, we will just have to nuke Teheran and Qom and take out your “command and control” centers. We cannot afford to have sick hostile bastards from Persia thinking they have an empire on our lands – not with the hostile attitudes you have towards Jews and Israel.

    If I were you, I would get out that prayer rug and pray that someone with my mindset never comes to power here. None of wants to do this, but if we have to we will turn your pretty cities into nuclear glass. And we can do it NOW. You dimwits still have to play for time to get your nuclear shahmawt pieces on the board.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Dear Person and Roger I love your comments
    Tell it the way it is, United State which I am part of it has no right to place these little kings and rulers in their position to control their wealth in the first place. United States learned this kind of policy from the old fox , THE BRITISH COLONIAL GOVERMENT,. I AM proud to be a capitalist and make money, however there is big diference between capitalist and imperialist. Capitalist work hard in a competative market which every one have opportunity to compete and make progress and get rich. However when the captalist tries to dominate and close the opportunity to others and unfairly eliminate the competation or colonize the other nation then it is called imperialisam. Unfortunatly United Stats became an imperialist nation after the clapse of british empire. today one by one these rulers which for years defended the interest of the United State losing their power becaus people of those nation finally awaked and now asking their right and their share of their wealt.and United State is losing a lot of those nations who are asking why you did us unjustis and take advantage of our frendship.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    And there is ample proof of my view in the comment #32 above…

    Person, meet Ruvy; the two of you have things in common, just not in a good way…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    My #26 was but my gut reaction to the article, not to the comment thread which, more often than not, I find useless. Regardless however of what “Person” or “Jonas” is or what they stand for, Ruvy’s knee-jerk reaction is only to be anticipated. Indeed, it appears he’s incapable of a rational response.

    For years, he’s been berating the corrupt influence of the West in the Middle East and God knows elsewhere. Yet just because my comment, to Douglas, was received with approbation by whomever, Ruvy goes nuts.

    Go figure!

  • Joanie H

    Person….America is not a perfect place by all means but for the most part there is freedom and rights. Are there mistakes and poor judgment in our actions from time to time…you bet. Even in America you have the freedom to be wrong and illegal however there are consequences but at least there is freedom. We do not have a dictatorship controlling our lives.

  • josh

    “the Iranian regime launched a brutal and bloody crackdown in much the same way that Gaddafi (…)”

    Yeah, 2 bodies and 2500 ones is “the same”. I’m not wondering anymore how you, zionists, could conduct atrocities among Palestinians. For you one dead Jew is “the same” as million of dead Palestionians.

  • Joanie H

    I think the middle east movement are PEOPLE (regardless of race, religion etc)that are fed up with poverty, dictators, no hope and no future. I am proud for whatever reasons they have come to this final hour to say “enough”. We have poverty and people are virtually imprisoned in their communities of poverty because of no pay, no jobs and no hope….it is a global problem. Who knows we may have a revolution here and if it happens for the same reasons then good for our people. It is a global conscienceness that is taking place I don’t know what higher power set the wheels in motion but I am proud that PEOPLE are using their voice, risking their lives (which is the sad part) to say “WE AREN’T GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE”. No I am not naive to think that there could be some current flowing within the movement that has another agenda but if something great comes of this for these people when it is all said and done then it was a great accomplishment. PERSON get over yourself about the zionists, spy and other crap too deep for my waders. Not all the world is entangled in these concepts most are just trying to make a living and take care of their families. You however must really be into the conspiracy theories up to your neck to say these things. Americans have a very broad idea of how our government conducts itself…some hate it some like it some don’t care…probably like most citizens of most countries. The freedom to life, liberty and happiness is important to most people.

  • Joanie H

    I do have to say that 2 ships doesn’t not impress me that a war can be won but one can definitely be started. I hope that cool heads prevail and these 2 ships don’t force someone in command to make a hasty decision. The world watches.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Hay this is for Ruvy. I have some news for you Iran long time ago became nuclear state, in fact since 1991. From militery point in any unconventional conflect with iran Israel [edited] do not have any chance to survive
    I told this to some of your leader long time ago. and they knew the fact. but because it is technical I have to educate you, you got to know that it take 16 A bomb 10 kiloton power to deactivate a armered division, and it take only 10 or eleven minutes for a missile to reach your capital
    and iran have 400 of such missile in blast proof silo. even if IsraHell attack iran from Israel [edited] with missile capable of reaching Iran which I do not beleive you have, your country at best capable of destroying only few city and and insignificant part of our retaliatory capabilities. the other way is by your air force, probibly F-15s. what you think the chance of those plane to reach their target.?? Iran immedietly retaliate by at leat 20 to 30 missile capable to deliver its payload only in 11 minute. now consider the size of Iran and size of Israel [edited]. no matter what your country be able to fire at Iran, Iran will survive., however few direct hit on your country and no more Israel [edited] [personal attack deleted]. As a wise man said keep your word sweet and soft becaus you may force to eat it.

  • Richard E

    Ruvy,#32
    No doubt your experiences are rooted in your past real life experiences. Wisdom is not something to be taken lightly. However things turn out, no one can dispute that the dark consequences you projected are a real possibility if things get out of hand. There is reality and then there is fantasy. You have tried to give people a dose of reality. Though I hope and pray things don’t happen as you have written, I have to concede that it can not be rules out either.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    What are “Palestionians” when they’re at home?

    A group of Palestinians who fled to western Turkey and started a colony there?

    :-p

  • Richard E

    Ruvy,
    Meant to say your opinions are rooted in your past experiences.

  • Person

    May God hasten the arrival of Emam Al Mahdi and make us his followers.

    The proof that God exists is in the beauty of words and logic. After all of your hue and cry, no one could successfully answer this question:

    Since the West has been killing one million civilians over the past ten years, why should we, Iranians, listen to your lectures on human rights? What can we possibly learn from your example?

  • Richard E

    Person #44
    The answer is: Why do you care? By the way, provide links if you want credibility on your allegations. And I do believe in God, and you have the right to believe in whatever it is that you believe in.

  • Person

    To Riche,

    Why do I care? We in Iran care that arrogant people in the West talk about Iran like it is their business what goes on in our borders.

    IraqBodyCount and countless other sources detail US criminality and countless civilian deaths in Iraq, Afghanestan, and Pakestan. To doubt massive civilian death in Iraq is willful ignorance at best. You lose.

    Next taker? Why should Iran listen to World Arrogance (the West) about human rights when they kill one million civilians in the Middle East?

  • Richard E

    Person 46…your true self shines through loud and clear. You need to get over your insecurities and low self image and perhaps you could release some of that anger. I’ve met many people like you in my lifetime, big talkers but no hard data to back up a single arguments. I don’t know why I bothered to engage you. You’re afraid to use your real name, which is probably why you feel so empowered to insult others. My name is Richard Edwards and I choose not to give you the privilege of my valuable attention any further. You are not worth it. Peace out.

  • Person

    That is fine, Riche. You can pretend that the West has not killed countless civilians in Iraq. That is the only way you can maintain your failed ideas.

    Next taker (who admits the Iraq and Afghan wars exist)? Why should Iran listen to World Arrogance (the West) about human rights when they kill one million civilians in the Middle East?

  • Jesús

    The war to control middle eastern oil is a modern day reality. Many different players are involved. Add to this competition for Jerusalem and you have a recipe for a lot of war and violence. Calculus and technology are the great equalizers. The weapons needed to win this war are different. The righteous, the just will prevail! Are they Muslims? Americans? Jews? Christians? Let the greatest competition of all, Begin…

  • Person

    I agree with Jesus.

    If I am not mistaken, he is asking why should Iran listen to World Arrogance (the West) about human rights when they kill one million civilians in the Middle East?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, the first thing you need to learn is that people in a free society don’t speak or act with one voice. That is the preserve of dictators.

    There are many people in the west that disagree with the politicians about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I am one of them.

    People in Iran should be happy to be able to have any kind of communication with other people all around the world.

    One of the key differences is that peaceful protest and dissent is tolerated over here. That is obviously not the case in Iran or Libya and many other countries where the rights of freedom of expression and free democratic political processes are not the norm.

    Many people disagree with their governments actions and enjoy having the right to make that disagreement known.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Let’s say a few things in defense of the Persians here – not that Reza or “person” really rate these words, and certainly not that THEY deserve them.

    But reality has to be recognized, and there are certain realities here.

    Persia has been a great empire and leader in the region of the world just to the east of us for many centuries. In addition, ancient Persian civilization contributed many good things to the world, not the least of which was Zoroastrianism (which promoted the idea of religious tolerance), the Bahai, who have promoted universal peace among mankind, shesh-besh (known to many of you as backgammon), and many of the refinements of the game we know in the west as “chess”. Checkmate is the English corruption of the Farsi shaHmawt – death of the king. The word “paradise” has Farsi roots, referring to the beautiful orchards and gardens in ancient Persia. Wrap it all up in a nice carpet with inscriptions of Farsi poetry, and you have an attractive package.

    On the other hand, Shi’a Islam and the culture of vicious violence it espouses, has coarsened what could have been a fine and elegant civilization. The brutality in Persia is not new to the “Islamic Republic” – it has been extant in Persia for centuries and has not gone away, in spite of the efforts of the last shah there to “modernize” and “westernize” his country. Perhaps this was because his Savak was just as vicious as the Basiji who are its successors.

    But that really is not the point of why I’m writing this. Persia is an empire. And empires generally like to have the latest destructive toys available to the kids on the block. So, it is reasonable that an empire would seek and crave nuclear weapons. What is UNREASONABLE is the consistent threats the latest version of the Persian Empire makes against the existence of Israel. That is the ONLY reason, THIS RÉGIME has to be stopped in its tracks. A more peaceable régime, content with dominating Mesopotamia and eastern Arabia would be fine with us in Israel, and if it got nuclear weapons, so what? Only the “Western” nations would fear them.

    What would be the optimal scenario, in my opiion, would be Persians ditching Shi’a Islam altogether, and re-adopting their native Zoroastrianism. Such a country, backed with its own nuclear weapons arsenal, would be a force for peace, not war, and would be a natural ally for the Jewish entity on the Mediterranean. But I do not foresee this happening.

    I do not foresee a nuclear bombardment of Israel from Persia, either. Persians are not stupid. They know that the sun rises in the east, and the winds blow TOWARDS the east – meaning that the nuclear poisoning of the air a massive nuclear bombardment of Israel would create would kill them off in the most horrible way – and there would be no Jews to figure out a cure for the radiation disease that would slowly kill them.

    Note that in my comments I specified a minimal nuclear attack to kill off the leadership – I also understand the effects of a massive nuclear attack.

    And, in all truth, I would rather that the Persian people themselves get rid of this error they have made, the “Islamic Republic”. It would save us all a terrible war.

    Unfortuately, I don’t foresee that either.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And Richard, thank you for your kind words (comment #41).

  • Richard E

    Excellent comment Ruvy, and informative for many readers. I know I learned a thing or two from it. I think Christopher Rose also made some excellent points about the behavioral differences between members of a society ruled by dictators, and members of a free society who live in a country that provides constitutional freedoms, individual liberty, and the right to protests.

  • troll

    Ruvy – iyo if Israel were a righteous Kingdom would the use of nuclear weapons on any city be within the Law?

    (understood that Israel is at present a secular State and is therefore governed by an alternate set of laws of war)

  • Person

    I see. We in Iran should listen to people in the West because, even though Westerners either committed or were ineffective in stopping 1 million civilian deaths in Iraq by their armies, we in Iran somehow need to learn to be as moral as you. That is why we call you World Arrogance.

    We reject your empty culture and Christopher, I love how you view an Iranian’s interactions with Westerners as a way for the Iranian to learn, but not for the Westerners to learn.

    If your democracy and culture is in effect global dictatorship and killing 1 million civilians, we prefer what we have, despite what names you want to call us.

    When did we kill 1 million civilians? If our leaders ever tried to do that, we would stop them, unlike you in your so-called “democracy”.

    Since you cannot stop what your leaders do in your “democracy”, why should we learn morality from you? Is it not you who needs the lesson?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, you are confused. Personal freedom and liberty have nothing to do with morality and we should be grateful for that.

    Morality is usually a term used by those who wish to impose their views on others, such as we see in so many unfortunate countries today, so no, you in Iran don’t need to learn to be as moral as us, you need to learn to be free.

    A culture can’t be empty, Person; if it was it wouldn’t be a culture. I have not written and nor do I believe that learning is a one way process, but please do keep responding to imaginary arguments if that makes you feel good about yourself.

    I’d like to know why you keep using the word “we” when Iran is not a unified society in which all members think the same way, so why do you?

    We can stop what our leaders do, by voting them out of power. Can you?

    Once again, nobody is trying to teach you morality, so your argument is irrelevant. Morality is as corrupt a force as monotheism.

  • Person

    Christopher,

    However you want to define terms or theorize, the output of Western society upon the Middle East since 2001 has been 1 million civilians killed. Never forget that. Clearly something is wrong with your society.

    To add to the hypocrisy, many members of your society, including yourself, seem to think enough things are good and well in the West that you should use your reserve energy to nit-pick on other cultures, such as Iran. People like Rudyard Kipling did the same and we rejected them then and we will reject them now.

    Rather than pretending to be experts on Iran, thousands of miles from your home, why don’t you people fix your own serioud crimes? How can you be so arrogant to preach to us with the blood of 1 million civilians on your armies’ hands?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, before getting on to your latest confused post, how about answering my questions?

  • Person

    Christopher,

    I love how you prove me right every time with your arrogance. My last 20 posts have all been the same. I simply ask why people in the West have the right to spend time criticizing Iranian society and the government we created when your society allowed for the killing of 1 million civilians since 2001.

    I know that this question makes you angry, because you cannot think of a good answer to it. You want to feel good and look down on everyone else. I know that.

    You are unable to to say:

    “Yes, I am sorry. I was part of those people in the West who spent energy nit-picking on Iran when my governments’ armies are killing civilians this very day. From now on, I will focus on stopping my own governments’ crimes, and not on criticizing other societies I know nothing about.”

    That is why you are a part of World Arrogance.

  • troll

    I simply ask why people in the West have the right to spend time criticizing Iranian society…

    Person – answer to your question: they don’t but they’re renowned kibitzers

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, I love how you prove your own arrogance time after time.

    I’ve already told you that I and many millions of others don’t support those wars.

    I’ve also told you that in a free society people can discuss whatever they want to.

    I’m not angry at all, although I am a tad frustrated by your refusal to answer my questions when I have answered yours.

    So, [personal attack deleted by assistant comments editor] will you now answer truthfully or continue with your dishonesty?

  • Person

    troll,

    Precisely, that is why we have the Basij and the Revolutionary Guard and the position of Supreme Leader. We never want to be like them or let them impose their arrogance on us.

    Thank God the rest of the Middle East is finally joining us.

    Regards.

  • Person

    Christopher,

    [edited] I don’t have to answer about to you about Iran, my country, and what laws we impose on ourselves.

    It is you, a member of the West, who needs to answer to the people of the Middle East for that your armies have committed.

    If you say “I am against the killing of 1 million civilians”, then that is fine. But since you have not yet been effective in stopping this crime, why do you spend time nit-picking on other societies?

    Why should we listed to you when your society mass slaughters civilians?

  • Richard E

    Person, #56
    Christopher Rose was being honest with you, however you couldn’t possibly understand because you have no idea what it feels like to be truly free. It is pure fantasy for you to assert the Iranian people can stop its government from doing anything. The Iranian people have tried that twice in the past year and many were killed or severely punished by your ruthless leader. Your government treats women worse than Americans treat our dogs. You have zero religious tolerance. Your Revolutionary Guard is empowered to kill indiscriminately without fear of punishment. Your hatred for Americans is so blatant that no one wants to talk to you. But, now and then, we can’t resist the urge to put you in your place. You are a brainwashed prisoner of a ruthless dictator who will do anything to hold on to power, including killing you or any others who stand in his way. That is your sad reality; it is your narrow world in which you are trapped, with no choice but to endure. It is a tragedy that you would be imprisoned if you spoke with a true voice. You are a prisoner to the will of one man, not a God or a benevolent leader, but a ruthless man with no value for human life. The only opportunity you will ever have to publically speak your mind is when the Iranian people overthrow the tyrant, but that would costs many lives. I understand you have the right to respond to this communication, but I have the right not to read your response, and I won’t. I already know exactly what you will say, because that is all you are permitted to say. Your Internet communications are no doubt monitored by “mind handlers.” Sadly, you will never know what it feels like to have the freedom to criticize your rulers. Which means that anything you say on this site, is of little value to readers because you have received your orders to repeat the same thing over and over again. Why not prove me wrong by telling us exactly what it is about the way your government treats it’s people that you absolutely hate?.

  • troll

    Person

    with some luck all in the region will be able to lead a good life

    shalom

  • Jonas68

    Well…to early to see which way Egypt, Tunisia, and from the looks of it Libya are going but at last check those nations are Sunni and do not have the concept of Supreme Leader in their tradition.

  • Person

    Again, the zionists have come out of the woodwork to attempt a 10 against 1. Thankfully God has provided the world with beauty of logic and words.

    Despite all the hue and cry, why should Iran listen to lectures from the West when the West has killed 1 million civilians since 2001? I am still waiting for a logical answer from the Westerners.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, I don’t have to answer to you either.

    In a free society, which you appear not to understand, people can choose to engage with each other or not. However, apparently you aren’t interested in dialogue at all, which comes as no surprise at all. How disappointing it is to see such a lack of integrity on your part. Morality will do that to a person unfortunately.

    Richard, paragraphs, man, before I go blind!

    Jonas, anybody who believes in the notion of a supreme leader is either very gullible or a victim.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Richard, I made a careless error in my comment #52 above. The Bahai are a movement that are no more than 2 centuries old at best, and are not the product of ancient Persian civilization, but an attempt, instead to find peace in “modern Persia”.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Alan, which part of my words do you consider a personal attack? I consider it factual plain speech, what they call calling a spade a spade where I come from, as Person is anonymous and clearly afraid of answering anybody’s questions.

    You, on the other hand, don’t listen to information or describe things accurately, except when noting minor errors in articles for some odd reason. That is also factual and not a personal attack. In a way, writing complete nonsense is the same as writing nothing at all…

  • Jonas68

    To Person

    Where do you get your statistic? Curious to know.

    What do you mean by the West? Does that include Albania or they don’t count.

    countless thousands have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by US forces that is a sad reality but last I checked Iran has its hand bloody too. Helping one side against another in Afghanistan and Iraq and killing people or does this tragedy does not count? Killing their own people on the street? Rape and Torture got so bad they they had to come out and admit it…any of this sinking in? You are using “the west” to cover the dreadful actions of the Iranian regime. One evil does not excuse another.

    When are you going to get out of Rasht?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Christopher Rose (#72), I consider it factual plain speech to call you a hypocrite. But you won’t let that stand, will you? The only thing that matters to you is power. You have it and I don’t. But that damn sure doesn’t make you right.

  • Person

    To all the Zionists,

    I love how you pretend the West’s armies have not killed countless civilians since 2001 (call it 100,000 or 1,000,000). God and the readers of this debate see right through you.

    Given that the mass civilians deaths have occurred, what gives the West the right to preach to Iran? Why don’t Westerners spend their energies on their own business and stopping the crimes of the West in Iraq?

    I will keep hammering this point until I am banned (which proves the West loves censorship) or until the Westerners see the light.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person (#75), yes, you undoubtedly will be banned, but not because “the West loves censorship.” That’s too broad a statement. Have you seen any of our movies or listened to our rap music?

    It’s true, however, that some men in positions of power abuse their authority, whether they reside in the West or elsewhere. And Blogcritics has placed such a man in control of this conversation. So you will be banned. But please don’t blame it on the West. Blame it on the man, and on the corrupt management that enables his abuse.

  • Person

    Alan,

    That is not how we see it. The West is selective in its censorship. Pornography is fine, but hard political questions that expose their hypocrisy is not, such as:

    What gives Westerners the right to preach to Iran when their society has committed mass murder of 1 million civilians in the Middle East since 2001?

  • Jonas68

    To Person:

    You did not provide where you get your stat

    Did you read what I wrote?! Countless thousand have been killed…are you saying because so many have been killed by “the west” it is ok for Iran to Kill and Torture Iranian people and Kill Iraqi and Afghans because the west is doing it too?

    You have not been banned which proves the point that media in the west is much more free than Iran. They do not block internet sites and block text messages here like they do in Iran.

    Be a little honest with yourself…are you not ashamed?

    “the west” as you put it, is pretty far from perfect but it is better then the sad system you have in Iran where opposition is crushed and all is justified in the name of god.

  • Person

    Jonas,

    Nope. As bas as Iran is in your eyes, as a member of the West, why do you spend time nit-picking on us? Is the West not the biggest violator of human rights in the MIddle East with between 100,000 to 1,000,000 civilians killed since 2001?

    Since you spend time condemning other societies when, in raw numbers, no one comes close to the West, we call you World Arrogance. You lose.

    Next taker? What gives Westerners the right to preach to Iran when their society has committed mass murder of 1 million civilians in the Middle East since 2001?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person (#79), I agree with you. Westerners do not have the right to preach to Iran when our society has committed mass murder of civilians in the Middle East since 2001–whether the number killed is 1 million or only one.

    So where does that put me in your eyes, Person? I am a Westerner. When you establish the worldwide Islamic republic, will I be condemned along with all other Westerners? Or will you take the time to separate the good from the bad?

  • Jonas68

    Person –

    Still don’t have statistic do you? just forwarding a number some Mullah told you in a mosque and you followed blindly?

    The Internal Killing and the Killing of Afghans and Iraqi’s by Iran is ok then? The Mullah said it is not Haram?

    Iran is not bad in my eyes, but Iranian government is truly Horrid.

    I would call you Dumb but no you are more Naive then that… truly sad that you never leave Rasht to see what is happening in the rest of the world.

    My friend you have been suckered and lost long time ago. Your benefactors are proud of their creation and laugh at you behind your back.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Alan, I prefer to let that particular remark stand in the belief that it says far more about you than it does about me.

    Person, your spurious question has been responded to. As such, simply letting you robotically repeat it any more would be as boring as it would pointless.

    You haven’t, as yet, done anything that would get you banned but, should that happen, it won’t be to censor you. The choice is yours…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Some people make me ashamed to be a Westerner.

  • Jonas68

    To Alan

    My dear sir I do understand your point but with some people, regardless of if they are from the west or the east, you can only use language that is harsh in nature.

    All the best

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Aw come on guys! Why are you letting this “person” get you all tied up in knots? He asked a reasonable question: why should Persians listen to you preach morality if your régimes have killed anywhere from 100,000 to a million people in Iraq?

    We in Israel did not kill 100,000 to a million people in Iraq, and I’m not preaching to him. This, in spite of the fact that his régime is as savage as a bunch of torturing brutes and is proud of how savage they are, with floggings, whippings and hangings all over Youtube like a bad smell. This, in spite of his country’s record for raping women so they can execute them and they won’t go to heaven as virgins, for his country’s record of punishing the victims of rape more severely than the rapists, of attacking minorities (the Pashtun have no use for the Persians)

    Trouble is, guys, that even though this “person” represents and defends a régime of savage animals who should be caged in a zoo, if not shot dead outright, you in the west just do not have the moral right to lecture him. Your leaders’ hands are too bloody.

  • Richard E

    Christopher Rose,
    You are indeed a man of great patience and forgiveness.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Of course, if your leaders show some balls and destroy his country’s régime of torturing savages, you won’t have to listen to his lectures – at least you will have done the RIGHT thing – for once.

  • Jonas68

    To Ruvy

    The trouble is with Person types you can only use harsh language. I know I was not preaching to him from a moral point of view or stating that the west is morally superior but it is better, it is better that there are more freedoms, more tolerance, not perfect mind you far from it as a matter of fact but better. And yes it is better because it does not discriminate against half of it population, the women. It is better that the west does not stone people to death…I can go on and on. The Point is the Regime in Iran is so backwards and it is keeping its people backwards best it can and produces people like the “Person” deaf, dumb, and stupid.

    And yes the west has committed crimes in the middle east and elsewhere resulting in countless deaths but if you want to compare the two it is better and the west should preach to places like Iran until they learn to take care of their own homes and neighborhoods because at present they are clearly incapable of doing so and scream like little babies that life is unfair.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jonas, I’m not arguing with you – merely pointing out that you do not have the moral leg to stand on to lecture Persians based on the behavior of the nations in the west.

    Yes, you are 100% right that there is less violence towards women and children, less overall intolerance, etc., etc. But the bloody hands of your leaders rob you of the right to lecture “person’s” bloody-handed leaders.

    Your leaders need the courage to destroy these vicious brutes in their lairs. Instead, corporations do business with them. It makes you guys stink.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My leaders stink, too. That is why I do not lecture “person” – only warn him that if someone like me gets into power here, the scumbags at the top of his society will be nuclear ash and nothing more. Hey, it gives him something to pray about.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Ruvy (#91), let me get this straight. Our (Westerners’) leaders have blood on their hands. So they have no right to lecture Persians. Instead, our leaders need to destroy these vicious brutes in their lairs. That way our leaders would no longer have blood on their hands and would therefore have the right to lecture any Persians who escaped destruction. We wash the blood off our hands by washing our hands in blood. Correct?

    This geopolitics stuff is complicated, Ruvy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sometimes, in order to do the right thing, you need to get blood on your hands. And no, it does not give you the right to lecture and flap your jaws. But (hopefully) other people – who are presumably more amenable to peace and living in peace take power – obviating your need to flap your jaws.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    So you believe there is a new, enlightened cadre of Persian leaders waiting to fill the power vacuum once we annihilate the current regime, and that the Persian masses will eagerly follow their enlightened leadership, ensuring regional peace and mutual security. I didn’t realize you were so optimistic, Ruvy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Regardless of “Person’s” true view of Iran – which, under the circumstances, he has good enough reasons not to communicate to his online adversaries – there is one point which emerges from this thread and it needs stressing over and over again. That’s how most of the world views the West. And “Person’s” view is nowhere near as radical as it could be (in contrast, for example to “terrorists” or suicide-bombers). It is articulate, in fact, though shared instinctively my many of his brethren in Iran or the Middle East who may be less articulate than “Person” himself is. We in the West should take heed rather than simply dismiss it off hand as though ravings of a lunatic.

    I must disagree here with Mr. Rose on one point. Morality (or preaching, if you like) is the main issue for “Person,” and it’s a damn valid one. We may feel smug about ourselves and keep on patting ourselves on the back for all the presumed rights and freedoms we have secured for ourselves, but this kind of boast carries very little credence with others, not when we show little or no concern with their rights (because such a concern would run contrary to pursuing our national interests). Witness the lethargic response on the part of the West to prevent Gaddafi’s brutal actions against the people of Libya, or the recent solitary vote by the US to stop the UN Security Council resolution aimed at preventing further buildup of Israeli settlements in the contended parts of Jerusalem. These actions speak louder than words, and they prove beyond any doubt that when Western economic or national interests are at stake, we don’t really care about human rights or freedoms of any other peoples but our own. It’s just an empty talk. So when the West talks, why should “Person,” or Iran, or the rest of the world as a matter of fact listen. That’s the “morality” that “Person” is speaking of, and it is the issue. Insofar as he is concerned, it is the only issue.

    If we were bold enough to own up to our complicity in this affair rather than hiding behind nice sounding phrases such as democracy, human rights and freedoms, I’m certain that “Person” would level with us too about Iran and the Iranian regime, but not before. Bur why should he as long as all he hears from us is indeed preaching?

    Again, we should take heed.

  • Jonas68

    To Roger

    Two Iranians made Anti Iranian Regime Statements on this blog and the so called person called them traitors and so on. the other two Iranians stop commenting maybe they just stopped or maybe they were scared that their IP is being monitored. This is the start and then high horse of morality from Person.

    He is not saying anything because he has nothing to say. What has the person been saying… the west is evil and therefore it is ok for us to be evil too!

    The West is very far from perfect as is democracy since we as humans are far from perfect… but show me a better way and a better system and would be happy to follow it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m not going to argue with your about human perfection or imperfection, Jonas. “Person” has a point about Western hypocrisy, and that’s the only thing I cared to address. Whatever your reasons for justifying the West, that’s your business. I don’t.

  • Clavos

    Person,

    Here you are:

    Yes, I am sorry. I was part of those people in the West who spent energy nit-picking on Iran when my governments’ armies are killing civilians this very day. From now on, I will focus on stopping my own governments’ crimes, and not on criticizing other societies I know nothing about.

    I was born in Mexico (a Western country), and I promise you I will work hard to ensure that my government and all our vicious campesinos stop murdering you Iranians.

    Oh, wait…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    “Person” has a point about Western hypocrisy

    He might have had a point if he’d argued it with anything other than gross rhetorical incompetence. Let’s take a look at how he’s done so far:

    1. Committed, and continues to commit, the tu quoque fallacy in response to commenters’ concerns about Tehran’s human rights record.

    2. Ignores acknowledgment by at least two commenters that the West does not occupy the moral high ground. (Although it was pointed out to him that this does not disqualify them from commenting on Iran. Which is quite true: just because your neighbor has a meth lab in his basement doesn’t mean he can’t warn you if your house is on fire.)

    3. Ignores multiple challenges to provide evidential support for his claim of 1 million western-caused civilian deaths, while persisting ad nauseam with the tu quoque and attempting to shift the burden of proof.

    No, Roger, I’m sorry. There may well be a point to be made; but “Person” has signally failed to make it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m not going to be quibble with you about statistics, Dreadful. The exact dollars and cents is of no concern to me #3)

    (#2) It’s reasonable to suppose he was by and large addressing those who keep on defending the West, not the detractors.

    (#1) It’s a natural human response not to yield ground to accusers who are guilty of similar crimes. And yes, I don’t excuse the West for subscribing to a double standard as regards human rights. It’s a sufficiently universal human concept to be applied willy-nilly, only to “”us and not to “them.”

    Finally, I’m less interested in whether “Person” had made his point to everyone’s satisfaction. That’s the point, if you extend him the benefit of charitable reading, he was trying to make.

  • troll

    …funny thing is that what kibitzing westerners have to say about Iran is irrelevant and Person is wasting his time here

    Person’s preferred regime will be challenged by Iranians – just a matter of time

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    And perhaps he himself would be willing to admit it if we only let him.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Roger,

    (since you insist on going backwards)

    3. What does that even mean? You’re being as evasive as he is.
    2. This article and thread are not about the West. They’re about Iran.
    1. I agree with you that there is a double standard, not only in relation to the actions of the West but also in relation to the actions of those states we are allied with vs. those we are not. However, that is beside the point. I have yet to see anyone on this thread “excuse the West” for anything.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Do you have the exact numbers as to collateral damage? I don’t. It’s sizable enough though, don’t you agree? There is no evasion here, only recognition that “exact numbers,” unless you’re keen on appeasing your own conscience – and why on earth would you want to do such a thing? – are at best only of secondary importance.

    (2) I beg to disagree. You can’t effectively disengage the two topics.

    (1) The double standard is not beside the point; it is the point insofar as “Person” is concerned, and I agree. We have forfeited the high moral ground and the right to moralize.

    Anyway, the main thrust of my comment was to sketch a picture of how others see us – take it or leave it – you, however, seem to be taking it beyond the original intent by nitpicking. Sorry, I don’t care to get into verbal games with you or anyone else. Waste of time.

    Again, I believe I expressed my ideas clearly enough. Sorry you don’t find it so.

  • Person

    Thank you Roger, I appreciate your ability to express the point so well.

    No doubt, little Rudyard Kiplings will be unmoved, but for Westerners who want to know about the real Iran, here are some links:

    This is what we think of Western interference in the affairs of other nations.

    This is what we think of the “Green Movement”.

    And this is what we think of Western military threats.

    (By “we” I mean the mainstream opinion in Iran. Yes, I know my country better than Yankees and expatriates do. I also know that zionists will post doctored links of Iran hanging murderers and pretend that those links are of Green protesters. That is fine. We are too noble to provide you people with any more of our sweet time. Remember, we reject your empty culture and deceit.)

  • Person

    Green movement here.

    [Person, we prefer that you post properly formatted links rather than raw URLs. Here is a brief tutorial on how to do that.

    Thanks,
    Assistant Comments Editor]

  • Person

    Thank you Assistant Comments Editor. If you like, you can remove Comment #102 (and this comment, #103) and put the link from comment #102 about the Green Movement in comment #101 for the Green Movement, as I had intended. If I somehow post on your site to respond to Rudyard Kiplings, I will follow your link protocol.

    Regards

  • Jesús

    Person, If I may, I will attempt to answer your question. There are many dimensions to the answer. I can give you a material, economic answer. I can also give you a deeper more divinely rooted answer. Also, a show of force type of answer. The economic answer is rooted in neccesity and self interest. This is tied to self preservation. The spiritual is one that you may know. War is a test for all humans. Who is on the side of justice and righteousness? Who will stand up against oppression? The third answer lies in what might come next. It is a show of force to a future, more complex enemy. Those are the reasons why they have killed so many civilians. No, there is no morality involved. Capitalism is a-moral. It seems simple, but it is not. Deception is fundamental in all of this.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    We are too noble to provide you people with any more of our sweet time. [posted on 23 Feb. 21:22.]

    It was 22 Feb. at 11:29 that the first anti-government Persian posted here.

    A few moments ago, 23 Feb. at 22:42 “person” posted a comment here thanking the Assistant Comments Editor for his correction.

    Apparently it took this long (or perhaps an hour less) for “person” and his other friends in Persian intelligence to find the anti-government posters using their IP tracking methods. Therefore, he needn’t spend anymore of his “sweet time” posting here. On the other hand, th3 comment preview I’m looking at lists as comment #106, and the last comment I saw was comment #103. Let’s see what pops up when I post this.

    Blessings from Samaria,
    Ruvy

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    …funny thing is that what kibitzing westerners have to say about Iran is irrelevant and Person is wasting his time here

    Thanks for inspiring my line of thought as to why “person” was wasting his time here, troll.

  • Person

    Yes Ruvy, it is all a conspiracy against the zionists. Please see our new book:

    “Protocols of the Elders of Person”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, I wish to treat you with respect, sir. I am an American, but I am not your enemy. So I tell you with respect (not preach to you) that you are not helping to move this discussion forward. You became mired in arguing with arrogant Westerners such as Jonas68 and Christopher Rose, who like me speak only for themselves, not others.

    But I tell you with respect that I agree with you. As I wrote in my comment #77, Westerners do not have the right to preach to Iran when we have murdered civilians in the Middle East since 2001–whether the number killed is 1 million or only one. For that matter, I believe we would have no right to preach to Iran even if we’d killed no one in the Middle East.

    I am truly sorry my government has waged wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I believe the United States rightly responded to the 9/11 terrorist attacks by conducting airstrikes to destroy al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan and inserting commandoes to search for Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. But we were not justified in invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

    In any case, I suspect that many Westerners criticize Iran less out of arrogance than out of fear. And I wonder if you, Person, can understand our fear, which extends beyond Iran to the Ummah, the worldwide community of Muslims. When you write, as in comment #44, “May God hasten the arrival of Emam Al Mahdi and make us his followers,” I find that scary. When Imam al-Mahdi arrives wielding Allah’s Sword, what will become of Westerners? I have visions of Muslims slaying infidels indiscriminately, stoning our women to death and beheading us men. Am I wrong to believe that?

    Person, you should give less weight to arrogance and more weight to fear as the motivation for Westerners criticizing Iran. And if our fear is misplaced, you could help move this discussion forward by telling us how Westerners will fare in the coming worldwide Islamic republic modeled on Iran.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Send it to my e-mail address, “person”. I’m sure you can track it with no problems.

    Seeing as I am not a Zionist – and seeing as nobody else commenting here is either, it should make interesting reading.

  • Person

    Alan,

    “To Allah we belong and to Him we shall return.”

    Despite the fact that I no longer wanted to respond to people on this site due to other priorities and value for my time, it is incumbent on me to answer your questions to spread the word of God.

    First, I want to say that the meat of this discussion ended on post #100 with Roger’s comments. He single-handedly won the debate that this discussion was about. All posts following his are an afterthought and to some degree take away from his achievement, which we should acknowledge.

    Second, if we start a discussion, we should expect zionists to start insulting both of us because they are afraid if Iran and the West stop fighting.

    Third, to get the best insight into Iran and Shiism, it would be best to visit Iran in person, visit mosques, and find clergy members to provide detailed answers, since they are much more versed in religion than I am. There may be a Shai mosque in your area where a trained expert can explain better than I.

    Fourth, I trust that you visited the links I posted in #101 and #102. They answer some of your questions.

    With all that said, and since I am in the fortunate position of representing Iran and Islam to you right now, I will answer your questions.

    I respect you and the other people on this site who quickly realized that the West was the true criminal and God knows your intentions.

    The fear you speak of, in our opinion, is largely a result of zionist manipulation and misrepresentation. Additionally, when it comes to Iran, traitorous expatriots feel obligated to assimilate into the West and gladly go along with zionist propaganda to gain acceptance.

    When it comes to Islam, and when I say Islam I mean Shia Islam which Sunnis like Al Qaida and the Saudi Monarchy hate, there is nothing to fear. I have never heard of anyone’s head getting chopped off or, for that matter stonings. Yes, stonings (for men and women who commit adultery) are on the books, but it is extremely rare. I am sure there are some harsh laws in the West that exist, but are more symbolic than used in practice.

    Additionally, in Iran, we have hundreds of thousands of openly Christian and Jewish worshipers. If we wanted to kill the non-Muslims, they would already be dead. Zionists inflate the fact that we disallow conversion to Christianity, which is true. However, we do not disallow people who are already Christian from being Christian or Jewish. Tehran alone has dozens of churches and synagouges and the Iranian parliament has both Christian and Jewish members.

    Additionally, I have heard that Iran has the largest embassy at the Vatican. These facts fly in the face of what the zionists would have you believe about the Shia and Iran. They also use the actions of Al Qaida and Sunni extemists to discredit the Shia who have nothing to do with them.

    The arrival of the holy 12th Emam is a part of our belief and, unlike the religion espoused by many readers here, we openly want people to join us on the side of God and justice. That does not mean we will kill those who do not join us. We just feel a moral obligation to spread the word as I am doing now. We also believe that Jesus (pbuh) will rise with holy 12th Emam and the two will be on the same side against the forces of satan.

    Finally, we are not thinking of world conquest. We cannot even get our closest neighbors, like Pakestan and Saudi Arabia, to agree with US. A forceful presence in the West is not what we want.

    We do not agree with spreading Islam by the sword. The caliphs who did so after the Prophet (pbuh) are hated figures in our folklore.

    I hope that they helps you understand my country and the form of Islam we practice, which we feel is the true Islam. Iran, like Germany in the decades preceeding World War II, is hated by a certain group of people we now know as zionists. As such, they stop at nothing to vilify us. I humbly hope my attempt at answering your question is helpful for you.

    Good luck!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Yes, you’ve been very helpful. Thanks for spending the time and effort to reply. You have given me much to consider. And I return your salutation: Good luck!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Alan, I agree with you that this last comment from this Persian Intelligence agent has been most helpful. It says a great deal that was not intended.

    The first unintended thing it says, is that there is a hatred of “zionists” – which really means Jews, that is endemic in the régime of these messianic Mahdi salemen.

    we are not thinking of world conquest

    You are not being lied to. Why should the Persians attempt world conquest when they can cripple your country with an EMP bomb exploded over Chicago, say. If you have been crippled and made powerless, you need not be conquered.

    Iran, like Germany in the decades preceding World War II, is hated by a certain group of people we now know as zionists

    The Persian government in the thirties, admirers of Hitler, changed the name of the country to Iran, to identify more closely with the Aryans made into gods by the Nazis.

    And now, this agent further identifies his country with that Nazi régime – reviled by Jews because it persecuted them. What this agent of the Persian government does not say is that Jews in his country are persecuted under laws very similar to those of the Nuremberg Laws of the ’30s – which were taken, in may ways from the restrictions on Jews imposed in Muslim countries. Persian citizenship has not been taken away from these Jews. But the citizenship they are allowed is very second rate, indeed. I know this because I know many Persian Jews who have gotten out of the hell that Persia is today. The snake of Jew-hatred bites his own tail – and winds up shaped like a hakenkreuz.

  • Person

    Ruvy’s argument is convincing. Except for the fact that Iran’s 25,000 Jews are free to move to Israel any time like all other Jews of the world.

    Ruvy will respond with an unsupported allegation that Iran forces them to stay. However his desired response has already been invalidated by his mention of the 100,000 Jews who left Iran during the Iran-Iraq war (known as the Sacred Defense). During this time, most Iranians with money went to America.

    I know Ruvy is not the most credible source of information. I just wanted to pour salt in his wounds.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Ruvy (#112), I too was made uneasy by the reference to Nazi Germany. Also, the factoid about Iran having the largest embassy at the Vatican. What are so many Iranians doing there? I confess that international intrigue popped immediately into my mind.

    Of course I have no way of knowing whether or not this particular anonymous Person is, as you allege, an Iranian Intelligence agent. But speaking generally, it’s not farfetched to be wary of the increasing role being played on the Internet by government intelligence services, including those of Western countries but most notably by China and Russia. While that role may presently be concentrated within their own borders, its extension to other populations is the logical next step.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I know Ruvy is not the most credible source of information. I just wanted to pour salt in his wounds.

    I never said that Persian Jews are prevented from leaving. Had they been prevented from leaving Persia, I never would have been able to speak with them. I spoke with Persian Jews in Jerusalem, not in America.

    You need to make a wound before you can put salt in it. A technical point.

    I cannot say that the Persian régime forces Jews to stay in Persia. I can say, with considerable authority, that the remaining Persian Jewish community has been intimidated by a thuggish régime of murderers. Its public statements must always be looked at through the lens of this intimidation. Every one of us in Israel who is familiar with Persian Jews – and most of us are – is aware of the care with which Persian Jewish officials who remain under this thuggish dictatorship must speak.

  • troll

    Rog #98 – or not

  • Reza Tavakolian

    HI RAVY, THIS IS FOR YOU FIRST ( DO NOT ASSUME ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU ARE IRANIAN AGENT ), lAST NIGHT I SAW THIS COMMENT IN YAHOO AND IT UPSET ME.

    Q- HOW DO YOU START A JEWISH PARADE ?

    A- ROLLLA QUARTER DOWN THE FIFTH AVE

    WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS WITH ALL THE CONTROL THE ZIONIST JEWS HAVE ON THE U.S. MEDIA HOW THIS COMMENTATOR WAS ABLE TO PUT SUCH INSULTING COMMENT IN THERE SPECIALLY WHEN IT IS NOT TRUE.??? WHAT YOU THINK.

  • Paul Roy

    Imagine how closer we’d be to a more peaceful and civilized world if we didn’t have all of this fucking religious nonsense in the way.

  • Person

    This is so funny. Alan asks me a question, which basically boiled down to “don’t Shia in Iran want to chop of my head?” and I gave, what I think, was a convincing answer to that.

    Instead, he joins with a guy named “Ruvy” to nit-pick on a few points and try to attack me, as opposed to asking me follow up questions–and this is after claiming to want to speak with respect!

    For readers of this debate, I am obligated to answer his points. First, Germany under the Kaisers was hated by those we now call zionists and that hate continued until the conquest of Germany in WWII. There is no link between Nazi Germany and the Islamic Republic, even though that is another fallacy pushed by the zionists.

    Second, I find it funny how Alan attacks the fact that Iran has the largest Vatican embassy. Rather than the possibility that we are interested in religious dialog, as I have been holding with you people, it must be a Shia conspiracy to control Italy’s lucrative sardine market, right? Alan, have you read our book yet, “The Protocols of the Elders of Person”?

    My sense is that this Alan character was not really interested in dialog, or else he would ask me for follow up, not some zionist called “Ruvy”. I also sense that the readers of this debate see right through him for what he really is. Alan, did you like how I earlier wrote “God knows your intentions”? That must have struck a nerve.

    In short, this debate has run its course. There are many questions that can be raised and answered (and many insults that can be leveled against us). However, objective readers of this conversation can get the general picture from what has already been said. For further questions on Shiism, there are clergy available on the internet and perhaps in your area. Those with real questions can consult them.

    In the wise words of Roger Nowosielski, I have made my points and I am sorry if some zionists do not think so. I am not interested in playing word games with them–waste of time.

    But I will leave them with two discussions regarding Germany and WWII. I do not attack or defend the discussions, I am simply posting them for readers’ and zionists’ benefit. Best of luck to all who have the courage to be truly free:

    here

    and

    here.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    I also sense that the readers of this debate see right through him for what he really is.

    That’s actually true…

  • troll

    …can’t figure out how Person’s blatant anti-semitism is in harmony with the beauty of logic and the word

    (note to editors – by ‘repairing’ Person’s early anti-semitic ‘joke’ you skewed the nature of the conversation – removing evidence for Ruvy’s claim that in Person’s case at least ‘anti-zionist’ means ‘anti-Jew’)

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Note to troll: I have no freaking idea what you’re on about; could you be specific?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Re #120: You mean there are readers of this debate? Let’s hope they’re as comfy as you are with Person’s references to Nazi Germany and with his ludicrous claim that Iran is interested in religious dialogue, rather than exfiltrating its intelligence agents through the good graces of the Vatican.

    Anyhow, the reason I didn’t follow up his previous message to me was because in #110 he wrote, “I no longer want to respond to people on this site due to other priorities and value for my time.” That left only Ruvy for me to commiserate with in the dead of night.

  • troll

    (way upthread Person referred to Jonas as Jewnas – you ‘corrected’ and lectured Person about playing with names…should have left it imo)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Q- HOW DO YOU START A JEWISH PARADE ?

    A- ROLLLA QUARTER DOWN FIFTH AVE

    WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS WITH ALL THE CONTROL THE ZIONIST JEWS HAVE ON THE U.S. MEDIA HOW THIS COMMENTATOR WAS ABLE TO PUT SUCH INSULTING COMMENT IN THERE SPECIALLY WHEN IT IS NOT TRUE.??? WHAT YOU THINK.

    I heard this joke many times. When I was a kid, it was “how do you count the Jews in the neighborhood? Roll a penny down the street.”

    You have answered your own question, Reza – but you do not want to see the answer. “Zionist Jews” do NOT control the American media at all. Assimilated Jews who want very much not to be seen as Jews but as Americans, DO have a very large voice in the media in the United States. But “Zionist Jews” are a cipher there.

    But it doesn’t upset me either way. Too many American Jews think they are living in the modern equivalent of ancient Susa, and see no reason to leave. As the American economy slowly (or quickly) falls apart, more and more non-Jewish Americans will point fingers at the prominent Jewish “managers” of the American economy – while the non-Jewish owners leave them to hang out to dry – and to get the wrath of a resentful and angry American public.

    Jew-hatred – hiding under the supposedly respectable cover of “anti-Zionism” – is more and more normal in America. As American Jews try to assimilate more and more and be more “American”, they will more and more be pinned as the evil Jews, agents of Rothchild and the CFR, etc. etc.

    Those with brains will come home to Israel. Those blinded by their money will be too stupid to. It is all very simple. Not easy – but simple.

    I know English is not your first language (it is mine), and I do sincerely hope you can comprehend what I am saying, as I did not use the simplest English to convey my meaning to you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Person –

    As long as Iran has a leader who denies the Holocaust, Iran’s motives will always be questioned, and rightly so.

    Don’t get me wrong – I am a Christian, and I’ve long maintained that trinitarian ‘Christianity’ has unjustly murdered more people in the Name of God than has any other religion, including Islam…and Bush’s ‘crusade’ only obviated the fact (IIRC he even stated that God told him to invade Iraq (which invasion, ironically, strengthened Iran’s influence immensely)). That, and you and I and Ruvy share something in common – we all know that only God is God, that Jesus is not God. Beyond that we differ greatly, of course, but I wanted to point this out in order to strengthen the main point of this missive to you, which is – again – as long as you have an elected leader who publicly states that the Holocaust was a grand lie, Iran’s motives will be suspect, and rightly so.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    troll, you will have to take that up elsewhere as I was only obeying orders. /irony…

  • troll

    …shit flows downhill

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    troll, so does water and gold.

    If you want to campaign for a different comments policy, please go right ahead, but you need to take it up at a level where policy is made.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    For some men, policy is whatever they want it to be, as long as it protects their own self-interests.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I suppose you are referring to me, Alan, but in my view you are doubly mistaken as the comments guidelines are plain for all to see and I don’t have any self-interest to protect in this.

    Your view is probably immune to change as you seem so set in your furrow, but that is your own challenge, not mine.

  • Person

    Ironically, Ruvy’s impressive English skills may help him once he is relocated back to his country of origin.

  • Person

    Glenn,

    “God has decreed that the truth shall prevail, and falsehood shall vanish, in spite of the evil doers.”

    You are probably not a zionist, but I feel so sorry for people in the West like you who live behind an information blockade. Because of that, I will help you see the light using the Socratic method. I assume people in the West still know what that means.

    1) Did you watch the discussions I posted earlier here and here? If so, what do you say about them?

    2) Is questioning historical events outlawed in the West? (Please be sure to fully research before you embarrass yourself–please don’t forget Germany and Europe.)

    3) Do you feel ashamed that, in Iran, we can openly use freedom of speech to question the holocaust and you cannot?

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

    5) Have you studied Judaism? After visiting that link, do you still imply Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are equidistant from one another?

    6) Can I have $1 each time you say “and rightly so”?

    God’s blessings onto you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Person –

    I question everything – that’s how I journeyed from being a conservative trinitarian racist to become a liberal monotheist with a multiracial household (much to the disappointment of the conservative trinitarian family of my birth).

    Yes, questioning the Holocaust is quite legal here – and so is questioning the moon landings. We’ve got people who still believe that smoking is healthy, who think that the government blew up the World Trade Center, who think that FDR knew about the Pearl Harbor attack before it happened…

    …and we’ve got millions who think that evolution is wrong and that President Obama wasn’t born in America (and the VAST majority of these last two are Republicans).

    Why would I point out that we have such a plethora of people with frankly idiotic beliefs? Because just as there are those who question the Holocaust, these are also examples of people who question what everyone else knows.

    So…Person – yes, we DO have freedom of speech here. Speaking of freedom of speech, we also have billboards claiming God isn’t real. I wonder what would happen in Teheran if someone put up a big billboard claiming that God doesn’t exist?

  • Person

    Glenn. Are you fully literate? I asked you 6 simple questions and you responded with emotions. I guess “want of accuracy” is now the primary feature of the Western mind.

    Since you apparently cannot keep 6 points together at a time, I will repost each one for you, one at a time:

    2) Is questioning historical events outlawed in the West? (Please be sure to fully research before you embarrass yourself–please don’t forget Germany and Europe.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Is questioning historical events outlawed in the West?

    Person, I hope Glenn isn’t going to be duped by your ingenuously-worded question, because I’m not.

    Denying the Nazi Holocaust, or genocide in general, is outlawed in a number of European countries – fourteen of them, to be exact – and in Israel.

    However, that leaves around 40-50 ‘western’ countries, including the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland and Australia, in which there is no such prohibition.

    Taking your question literally, the answer is yes. But it’s a leading question. It’s the same as if I were to ask you ‘do you fight with your brother?’ and claim based on your ‘yes’ answer that you have a terrible relationship with your brother because you’re always fighting.

    All this really tells us is that there is no homogeneous entity called ‘the West’, just as the Islamic world isn’t a unified bloc.

  • Person

    Thank you Dreadful. So questioning historical events is illegal in some Western European countries. Isn’t it strange how our good friend Glenn has kept in the dark about this, but knows so much about Iran’s forms of censorship? Somehow I doubt that this is an accident. We in Iran are proud that we can question all historical events.

    In the other Western countries like the United States, is there not informal censorship and death threats for those who question the holocaust? These two links (from question #1) seem to say so: here and here.

    Is anyone in the West brave enough to respond to these two links?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    As Person is making a big deal of being in the West, I thought it might be of interest to point out that their IP address is located in California…

    As to their latest questions, yes, there is certainly informal censorship of those who question the holocaust and it wouldn’t surprise me if there were occasionally death threats too.

    However, in the larger picture, where is there not informal censorship and often formal censorship too?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Christopher Rose (#140), I’m confused by your assertion that “Person is making a big deal of being in the West.” Do you mean that Person claims to himself be in the West? I reread all of his posts on this thread and found no such claim. To the contrary, in comment #56 he writes: “We in Iran …”

    Or do you mean that Person is making a big deal of the rest of us–his critics–being in the West? He has definitely done that.

    Also, when you point out that their (not his) IP address is located in California, are you implying that Person is more than one individual? I’m no computer geek, but can an IP address tell you how many people are posting from that location?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Sorry for any ambiguity, Alan; I meant the latter. They are in the West, not in Iran. I thought that made a difference and other commenters deserved to know that.

    By using the word their, I was trying to be gender neutral, not implying that more than one person is involved.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, I’m no lawyer, but the revelation (comment #140) that your IP address is located in California may violate the Blogcritics and Technorati privacy policy, which pledges that while IP addresses are collected and stored by Blogcritics/Technorati, they will not be used to publicly identify individual visitors and will not be shared outside the company, “except as aggregated statistics or as required by law.” In other words, you may have legal grounds to object to this revelation, which could conceivably lead to identifying you individually.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Christopher Rose (#142), I still don’t follow. What difference does it make that Person is in California, not in Iran? Are you insinuating that his location in the West somehow undermines his arguments against the West?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    That may possibly be the case, Alan, but I have neither publicly identified anybody nor shared an IP address. As you said, you are no lawyer…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    If it doesn’t make any difference to you, Alan, that is your choice. To me, context is important.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    In that event, you are using privileged information, to which only you have access (i.e., Person’s location in California), to influence this debate. In so doing, you have blurred the line between your official capacity as senior comments editor and your informal role as a participant with a vested dialectical interest in this thread. You therefore exercise an unfair advantage.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Compared to some countries, the one you live in is a relatively free society, Alan, although not as free as it once was. As such, you are at liberty to hold any opinions you care to for any reason and I respect that freedom.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    At the moment, the only people who impinge on my freedom of expression are you and your assistant Mr. Knaggs. Together, you represent a much greater immediate threat to my liberty than do any other villains, foreign or domestic.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    If you really believe either of those assertions, you have a very different perception of contemporary affairs than I do, which is, of course, your right.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    As usual, you patronize me. Yes, you are my personal Mubarak, my Gaddafi. Is it any wonder that I hate you?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Alan, I know I’m not patronising you and that I am clearly and explicitly expressing my respect for your right to hold any opinion you care to, even though we disagree.

    It seems to me that patronisation, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And, yes, it truly is a wonder that you hate me but, again, that is your right if you so choose.

    Personally, I don’t hate anybody, including people who have actually done me real harm. In my experience such powerful sentiments often boomerang and do more damage to the source than the target.

    You have angered and frustrated me at times but I prefer to focus on the positive rather than negative aspects of life and don’t hold grudges.

  • troll

    …with programs like Tor around can IP addresses be trusted?

  • troll

    like most anti-semitic bigots that I have argued with Person doesn’t plainly state his own point of view but rather defers to authority when it comes to the holocaust

    so – you’re into questions Person:

    in your opinion is the holocaust a fraud?

  • Clavos

    troll, The better question might be, is Person a fraud?

    I think so. In reading its comments I see the language of its persona slip from time to time, such that real familiarity and expertise (to the level of native speaker) occasionally slips through its facade of the good, but imperfect English of a foreigner.

    Its #137 is one such.

  • troll

    …hired by the CIA to go around giving Iranians a bad name

    hmmm

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Great catch! I know I give you a lot of grief for your cynicism…but there are times it serves you (and us) well….

  • Clavos

    Glenn,

    I am (proudly) cynical, but even I didn’t think it through to the degree troll does in #156!

    Interesting idea, troll!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Aside from “Person’s” true identity, Alan does raise an interesting question in #147 concerning the propriety of introducing “privileged information” into a public debate. A number of cases come to mind:

    (a) when done so by an individual qua individual; E.g., I may know someone personally. I catch him propagating disinformation which would be easily discredited as a result of my personal knowledge of them. I don’t see any problem here.

    (b) by an outside organization. E.g., disclosing source(s) of funding of a think-tank, a project, a political advertising campaign, regardless of its own stance on the matter. Likewise.

    (c) by higher echelons of an organization of which you’re a member. Again, if the object is to alert the rest of the membership concerning the likelihood that one of their own is misrepresenting himself. Offhand, I don’t see any ethical or moral problem here.

    So Alan’s puzzler doesn’t seem to turn on the question of who exactly has access to the privileged information, who discloses it and to whom, but on some other issue; and that issue seems to be the right to privacy within some larger framework.

    I don’t know to what extent “Person’s” IPO address originating from California affects or fails to affect the credibility of his argument (perhaps someone can tell me), but even in the event it does, it would seem Chris Rose has gone too far making that information public. It would have sufficed merely to warn “Person” that his IPO address tends to detract from the veracity of his message or his self-proclaimed identity.

  • Person

    I see. Since Westerners cannot respond to the facts that we, in Iran, present to you, you want to change the subject and make lies about our IP address and how much English we know. Clearly, we will not be fooled into responding to that.

    So, it appears that some of you have watched the discussions here and here. That is good and be sure that it makes your zionist overlords burn. As you can see, the holocaust is a completely open question and we have every right to openly question it. It is too bad that in the West, you people do not have the freedoms that we enjoy.

    Next point:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

    (This is in reference to our good friend Glenn’s implication that because Dr. Ahmadinejad and the people of Iran question the holocaust that we somehow wish for it to occur.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger Nowosielski (#159), the ethical dilemma stems from the willful betrayal of Blogcritics/Technorati privacy policy, which forms an explicit contract with site visitors, as I pointed out in #143. What Rose has violated is our trust when we enter into that contract by posting a comment.

    Also, as Person now points out in #160, we have only Rose’s word for it that the IP address is stateside. Since Rose has an ax to grind here–see his various comments in this thread–why should we trust him not to lie in his attempt to discredit the arguments of Person?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Fine, we only have CR’s word for it. That still leaves open the question as to whether a site visitor has a right to misrepresent themselves (in the event that they do), and how would you handle such a case.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger, where did Person misrepresent himself? Once or twice he used the phrase “We in Iran …” But that’s just the way I might express myself if I were visiting another country and posting a comment about what’s going on in the United States. You’re buying into Rose’s lie about Person without bothering to check Person’s posts on this thread for yourself.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I asked a hypothetical, Alan, and you’re not dealing with it.

  • Boeke

    Looks like we’re full-up with stockade lawyers here.

  • Person

    Roger, for someone of your intellect and courage, I a surprised with how you’re acting as a willing agent of those who want to side-rail the debate.

    Iranians (who’s homes are in Iran) come to study in the West and them return to Iran all the time. Many of us know better English that your people do. If you don’t believe me, google “Dr. Ali Akbar Salehi” or “Dr. Mostafa Camran” (ra). Once you have done so, please feel free to let the other readers know who they are.

    Bottom line, you people have stared creating a smoke-screen to attempt to escape your path to checkmate because you are too scared to answer the questions, such as:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

    I know you people lack the courage to investigate yourselves, as such you desperately want to escape the debate. That is fine, we will just keep laughing at you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    “Person,” I’m not taking any sides here. I’ve already expressed my view of the West and I don’t need to apologize to anyone. The question I posed to Alan was an aside, granted, but it’s a question I am interested here. Call it my “theoretical bent” if you like.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    … interested in …

  • Person

    I still haven’t seen an answer to my question from those, like Glenn, who still have not seen the light:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person (#166), I agree with you that your opponents on this thread “lack the courage to investigate themselves,” or maybe it’s not courage that’s missing so much as integrity.

    Nevertheless, it’s really boring the way you keep posing the same dumb questions over and over again. Can’t you think of anything new to say?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger, you are a philosopher. You are interested in the hypothetical. I do not share that interest. My head is not in your clouds. Talk to me about reality, not “what if.”

  • Person

    As a zionist who pretends to be your friend, and then stabs you in the back when he thinks the time in right, I take what Mr. Kurtz says with a grain of salt.

    As before, I will keep posting my question until it is answered or I am banned (proving that the West loves censorship). The question the West is scared of is:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Still haven’t fielded my question, Alan, but you’re content instead to rest your case on insinuations. Your SOP?

  • troll

    …perhaps it’s time to escalate a bit

    I’ve heard it argued that the prophet Muhammad was a rapist…in ‘the west’ we are free to question and argue about such things

    were someone to get up on a soapbox and make that claim in your hometown how would she be dealt with Person?

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Troll, I dont think so, I beleive Person is real and honest and in fact asked several question which some of you tried not to answer, but one which was answered perfectly by Christopher Rose points to the fact that Zionist jews not only can distroy the reputation of whoever question the Zionist agenda or Holocaust but they also control the media and financial institution of the United States and it does not means they do not have control of other aspect of American life. Recently CNN, fired a commentator which I forgot his name he is a latino, because he said some thing about jewish interest. Also I want to answer Ravy # 127 which I honesty beleive he is ignorent of the this fact. So let me share my personal experience with Ruvy, and the rest of you. back 1985- 1986 I was working as Financial and business broker and this radio station was for sale in Atlanta, and I was trying to fined a buyer. and I was asking the potential buyer to firnish their credibilty.
    and a company from Florida send me all the information. This company at that time had 60 radio and television station and was a private company. owned by a jewish guy, one time I asked him why he is interested to buy more radio station while he aleady own 60 other station. he said my friend media is power and control. I realy respect that guy because he was truthfull in his intention. Look the other jewish guy who is an Australian citizen Rupert Murdok. After he got his U.S. citizenship he bought Fox news that only serve the Zionist jews interest. the last thing he did was to purchase the Wall Street Journal. This probibly answer some of your other discussion on the freedom of expression in the west in general and U.S. in particular which is guranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Beleive me it also granteed by the Islamic Republic of Iran Constitution. however in the west you are free to say what ever you want to say as long as you prepaired for the consequences and retaliation if offended or crossed other people interest. in other word be prepared to pay the price. NOW MY QUESTION TO YOU AS DEFENDER OF WESTERN SO CALLED FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE HERE IN U.S. TO PAY THE PRICE OR OVER THERE IN IRAN IF YOU SAY OR ACT IN A WAY THAT IS OPPOSED TO SOMEBODY ELSE’S INTEREST EITHER PRIVAT OR GOVERMENT. I HOPE I WAS ABLE TO EXPRESS MY OPINION WITH MY SECOUNG LANGUAGE IF NOT (WHO GIVE A DAM) SUE ME.

  • Person

    I will answer all the zionist trolls once my questions, that I raised earlier are answered.

    The question is:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger Nowosielski (#173), my comment #171 was intended as a response. Is it insufficient?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, you are a bore.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Well, you raised the question, Alan, not I, but it seems you have no guts to carry it to its natural conclusion. And it’s got nothing to do with being in the clouds. My question simply was: what would you do in the event a BC visitor were to misrepresent themselves and you were in CR’s shoes, assuming further you were a person of integrity.

    If you find the question “too theoretical” to your taste, fine with me, but criticizing others for improper implementation of policy implies you have a better way and therefore would have acted in a different manner. Nothing theoretical about that.

    In the future, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    And I’ve just told you why I consider it a cop-out.

  • troll

    Reza Tavakolian – the point is censorship exists both in Iran and in the US – whereever there is a ruling elite

    Person while you asked Glenn the questions I’ll provide my answers to your trivial questions

    yes and I don’t make that leap

    so now it’s your turn

  • Person

    Zionists can attempt whatever methods they want to silence debate. We in Iran are not fooled by them and will keep posting our question until answered:

    4) Have you studied logic? If so, how did you make the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens?

    (This is in reference to our good friend Glenn’s implication that because Dr. Ahmadinejad and the people of Iran question the holocaust that we somehow wish for it to occur.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger Nowosielski (#179), a person of integrity would never allow him or herself to step into Rose’s shoes. His position demands mendacity. It’s part of the job description.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, could you please repeat question #4 again? I missed it the first 300 times.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    We in Iran are proud that we can question all historical events.

    How about if you were to suggest that Khomeini was on crack when he led the Revolution?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Then what you’re saying, Alan, the job is undoable. I’ll accept it as an answer if part of the answer is to do away with site censorship altogether. But in that case, it doesn’t even make sense to speak of “BC comments policy” with a straight face.

    Was it a ploy?

  • Person

    Ok. I just saw the answer to question four in #181, thank you troll.

    The answer is that there is no logical leap from questioning the holocaust to wanting it to occur. Again, isn’t it funny how Westerners like Glenn have been encouraged not to think about this simple point? We in Iran are proud to not live behind such an information blockade as your people do.

    Next question, from the earlier set:

    5) Have you studied Judaism? After visiting that link, do you still imply Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are equidistant from one another?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger Nowosielski (#186), I honestly did not realize that doing away with site censorship altogether is an option at BC. If it is, I heartily endorse it! Please, where do I sign up for that revolution?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Doing away with comment management on this site would be possible if people were capable of enough self control as to prevent the comments space turning into the virtual equivalent of contemporary Libya.

    Past experience here has shown that does not happen in practice, which is why a comments policy was introduced in the first place and will almost certainly remain in place for some considerable time to come.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    “Person,” your “question” implies that the Iranians, regardless of their position on Holocaust, approve of the event. More strongly, that those why deny it do so because they wish it had happened. Both assumptions are unwarranted.

    Let me turn the tables on you. Why do you suppose that denying the Holocaust strengthens the anti-Zionist position? It would seem to me that one’s anti-Zionist fervor need not be affected by the position they take on the Holocaust issue.

  • Clavos

    Blogcritics/Technorati privacy policy, which forms an explicit contract with site visitors…

    Al, have you seen that “contract?” In all my years with BC, I never have. I think you meant “implicit.”

    In any case, revealing that an IP address originates from an area with millions of residents hardly reveals anything substantive about the individual, and certainly doesn’t violate their privacy.

    You, as so often is the case, are making a mountain out of a molehill — and it’s obvious that you’re doing so to obfuscate.

    Tacky, Al, tacky.

    And annoying, little man.

  • Person

    Brother Reza, very good points about the role of the zionists in the West. I know that they are crying right now (especially Ruvy who is certainly watching but in a state of paralysis).

    They are afraid to answer this question:

    5) Have you studied Judaism? After visiting that link, do you still imply Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are equidistant from one another?

  • Clavos

    So, “Person,”

    It would seem, from your constant referrals to Zionism and Zionists, that you consider everyone who is opposed to your country is Jewish?

    Talk about an obsessive (and stupid) idea! As long as your country retains its philosophy of wanting to impose its religion and societal structure on the rest of the world, you can expect the world to oppose you.

    I’m an atheist, and am very much opposed to your mullahs and their puppet, Ahmadinejad; I see them as despotic, cruel, small men who want to impose their despotic vision on the rest of the world, and the world (and certainly Iran) would be better off without them.

    And I am not now, nor have I ever been, a Jew

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Clavos (#191), obviously you were too busy thinking up personal attacks, such as calling me “tacky” and “an annoying little man,” to bother reading the preceding thread. If you had, you might have discovered the links I posted in comment #143 to the Blogcritics and Technorati privacy policy, which pledges that while IP addresses are collected and stored by Blogcritics/Technorati, they will not be used to publicly identify individual visitors and will not be shared outside the company, “except as aggregated statistics or as required by law.”

    Of course, I’m not surprised that you have never seen this policy. After all, you are an “editor” at Blogcritics.

  • Person

    Clavos, if you had complete literacy, you would have realized that is is the the West imposing itself on others–not Iran.

    But that’s beside the point. You attempt at smoke-screen is rejected:

    5) Have you studied Judaism? After visiting that link, do you still imply Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are equidistant from one another?

  • Clavos

    After visiting that link, do you still imply Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are equidistant from one another?

    Are they the same distance from each other? I dunno, you tell me: how many miles from iran to Israel? How many miles from iran to the nearest Christian country? How many iranians can dance on the head of a pin?

  • Clavos

    …the Blogcritics and Technorati privacy policy, which pledges that while IP addresses are collected and stored by Blogcritics/Technorati, they will not be used to publicly identify individual visitors and will not be shared outside the company…

    And neither of those things has happened in this instance, Al.

    Nice try.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Clavos, you are a tacky, annoying little man.

  • Clavos

    That I am, Al, that I am…

  • Clavos

    And thanks for the compliment, Al.

  • troll

    Person I assume that you understand that Hoffman’s work is a dated example of Downard’s twilight language

    latest news – the yakuza is on the case eliminating the illuminati on track to becoming the new ruling elite

    answer to #5: yes and I don’t claim anything about equidistance

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person (#195), I have now completed my study of Judaism, including visiting the link you provided. And I hereby answer once and for all that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are not equidistant from one another.

  • troll

    …now it’s your turn

  • Clavos

    …Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are not equidistant from one another.

    But they are all fairy tales.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Islam is not a fairy tale. It’s an old-fashioned horror story.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    I, on the other hand, have studied cheese, green eggs and ham and can confidently conclude that they are equidistant from each other.

    For my next trick, I will demonstrate that two plus indigo equals Cambodian.

  • Clavos

    Agreed. But so are the other two.

    And they are all fictional.

  • Clavos

    :-) Doc

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, my brother, As-Salamu Alaykum! Besides me, you are the only one here brave enough to speak truth to power. But that is because, of course, you realize that the only real power is that of Allah, The Most Gracious, Ever Merciful, and his Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.

    In the interest of bringing closure to this unseemly debate, I have taken the liberty of answering the six simple questions you posed to Glenn in comment #135, but which he failed to answer to your satisfaction.

    1) Yes, I did watch the discussions you posted, and I say without hesitation that they are true in every respect.

    2) Questioning historical events is indeed outlawed in the West, although most of those laws are “off the books,” as we like to say, so as not to offend anyone.

    3) I do feel ashamed that, in Iran, you can openly use freedom of speech to question the holocaust and we cannot. Very ashamed.

    4) I have studied logic, and can state with confidence that the leap from questioning the holocaust to hoping that it happens is a Class A fallacy, much to be deplored.

    5) I have studied Judaism, including visiting your link. And Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are not equidistant from one another.

    6) Yes, you can have $1 each time Glenn says “and rightly so.” Please submit your voucher in person (no pun intended) to:

    Technorati
    360 Post Street, Suite 1100
    San Francisco, CA 94108

    God’s blessings onto you, Person. In fact, may a whole shitload of blessings fall on you like a ton of bricks.

  • Clavos

    Whew, ya had me there for a minute, Al…

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Dear Colvos
    your sated that you are Ateist, I assume you do not beleive in God or heaven and hell and I am not trying to convert you
    In my openion you are not degraded yourself and only need gidense and proof of the God existence. Again The only thing I can tell you is my own experience, however that also take time and this is not a place to reveal it because it is personal and I do not want all the people see what I went through in my personal life, but only to tell you I made a lot money in American way mulitmillion dollars and then lost all of it and then God gave me back after he prove to me who is in charge in this world.I was like you thinking I can do whatever I want to do, however now I am convenced God is in charge and not me and perhapps one day you will. You are only an unbeliever and did not went the other way to be against the God. this is actually happend to me, one night when I was in a donet shop in Atlanta A man set net to me and, he was wearing long black dress and had a book with the cover had all the sign of different known religion and start taking to me and asked me if I can recoqnize those signe in the book and I pont to sign of islam and christianity and some other. then suddenly he told me who he is and show me his ring and said he is one of the high presbyter of satan worsheper temple and then asked me about God and relegion and finally he said something happend to him and now he is confused. he was refering to God as Christian God, he told me he does not believe in God and for all of his life he served Satan and worshep Satan. He said few days ago he was driving fast in a road while it was raining hard and suddenly he said he lost the control of his SUV. and he said he remember he is going out of the road, he said he saw a gig tree and going to hit it fast, he said this is what confused me is I did not beleive in God and I do not know how at that moment I asker God to save me. He said that was the last thing he was remember before pass out. He said the next thing he was remember he find himself in the USV untouche while his SUV was like a twisted metal. He said from that moment he is confused about the existence of God. Then I told him about God and that God is not Christian God but the God Of all Christian Jews and muslem and any other creature in the world, and he who saved him when he asked for it. now you make your own conclusion. best regard

  • Person

    Change is something that you need. If you do not change, the divine hand will change you.”

    I love how, when presented with the hard-hittng facts, the zionists suddenly transform into court jesters. This is because they are stunned. The fact that the talmud is Judaism’s highest source of guidance or that it designates non-Hebrews as non-Human is a fact that is apparently also kept from our good American friends, like Glenn. Glenn, have you ever felt like a certain group is keeping key facts from you?

    I am more than prepared to retire this debate, assuming that there are no more clumsy attacks to be made by uninformed Westerners. If you want to keep going, I will keep going. If you have had enough, I will let you go.

  • Clavos

    So, Person, when you guys take over the world, do us infidels have to become islamics or die?

  • Clavos

    BTW, as a non-Hebrew I don’t mind at all being considered non-human.

    Most mornings, that’s exactly how I feel.

  • zingzing

    “person” seems a rather ironic name. i’m also not sure that he or she is fully informed about the west, its diversity, the difference of opinion (which is allowed here), etc. i hope that he or she, given the obvious ability with the english language that he or she has, can educate he or she for he or she’s sake.

    or

    if iran is just a nice country with a great leader and a benign nuclear program, go for it, iran! but if iran is a corrupt piece of shit that tortures people and wants to blow shit up, go fuck yourself [personal attack deleted].

  • Person

    Clavos, do you really want to keep this going? Your question in #213 was already answered when asked by Mr. Kurtz. See comments on page 3. Since your literacy known to be limited, you can ask someone to read it to you.

    zingzing, your country is a corrupt piece of shit that tortures people and wants to blow shit up. [personal attack deleted]

  • El Bicho

    he’s got you there, zing

  • Clavos

    Clavos, do you really want to keep this going?

    Sure. Bring it on, dude.

    See comments on page 3. Since your literacy known to be limited, you can ask someone to read it to you.

    OK, I went back to page 3 and got my cat to read your response to me; she thought your response was rather poorly written (I couldn’t tell, because as she read it to me, she corrected your grammar, she says).

    Anyhow, I’m sorta disappointed you guys don’t want to kill infidels, but what about us atheists? Surely we deserve to die? Hell there are even christians who would like to kill us — probably because we dis you believers.

    BTW, your own literacy is kinda shaky — check out your sentence above — didn’t you leave something out?

    You say the USA is a corrupt piece of shit, but it’s not my country, I’m a Mexican (I’m here legally though).

    So come on, Person, teach me about Persia. Tell me about the Holy Defense (love it when countries at war invoke religious language to make the killing respectable!), the Iraqis kicked your asses, huh?

  • Person

    Clavos, I may be nearly as illiterate as you, but at least I am not a sell out.

  • Person

    zionist moderator, post #215 still reads “go fuck yourself”.

    In order to be less obvious in taking sides, please return the phrase “go fuck yourself” back to post #216 or remove them both.

    thanks.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Person, I interpret zingzing’s “go fuck yourself” to be referring to Iran, not any particular person. (Unless you consider insulting 73 million people to be ‘personal’.) Yours, on the other hand, was directed at zing specifically.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Re: Clavos; are you having a battle wits with an unarmed man?

  • Person

    Jet,

    Are 10,000 zionists having a battle of wits with a single man–and having it handed to them? I’m curious why it takes 10,000 zionists and 223 posts to silence the truth.

  • El Bicho

    then why didn’t zing write “itself”?

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    223: Give yourself about an hour to come back with a better response… that was lame

  • Person

    Um, ok, just click on the “Jet Gardner” link. I don’t have to add anything to that.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    You were gone an awfully long time, I’m glad I posted pictures for you to look at.

  • Person

    I did not know I had to race to respond, like the other pathetic zionists with nothing to do.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Has anyone told you yet that calling someone a zionist in the U.S. isn’t that much of an insult.

    In fact most don’t even know what one is.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person, how many people do you imagine you’ve persuaded with your dozens of supercilious, antagonistic posts? I suspect the answer is zero. If that’s correct, why do you bother? You’re wasting your valuable time and energy by casting your pearls of wisdom before us pathetic Zionist swine. That doesn’t seem like something an intelligent man would do.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Jet, most of the participants in this thread know what a Zionist is. I for one am proud to be called one.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Re: 231 [gasp]

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I think he went back to looking at the pictures on my site. He’s probably not reading the headline tickers.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Speaking of your ticker, Jet, that’s an awesome piece of programming. I just clicked Digg over there. Did you do it all yourself from scratch, or adapt some open source code that was already out there?

  • Person

    Kurtz (man):

    I am not afraid of having convinced no one–although one can re-read the thread to find of number of Westerners who jumped in on the side of justice, much to your dismay. You and I both know other readers were convinced, but afraid to jump in.

    I got a kick out of making you all red in the face (note that is this post #235 and counting) by posting what you never thought you would see:

    David Cole

    Ernst Zundel

    talmud

    Happy purim!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Person (#235), you cannot take credit for having persuaded “Westerners who jumped in on the side of justice.” Anti-Americans such as Roger Nowosielski merely restated their long-held and oft-expressed prejudices, much to your delight.

    Nor do I accept your claim that “other readers were convinced, but afraid to jump in.” I suspect that Blogcritics attracts nowhere near the number of visitors that it likes to pretend swamp this site on a regular basis. And of those who do visit BC, most are fans of House, M.D. or opponents of unnecessary pap smears. Trust me, those folks are not the least bit interested in Iran.

  • troll

    Person – you didn’t answer the ‘zionist trolls’ questions as promised…

    start with: how does your antisemitism harmonize with the beauty of logic and the word

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    234-Tweren’t easy my friend, each of 25 news tickers carry 20 unique key words covering 500 individual subjects in 8 categories.

    I had to tweak it to keep the international section from all running the same headlines at the same time by separating 5 of them into separate countries, excluding each other… a mean feat.

    Thanks for the compliment.

    The headlines keep the intellectuals busy, the pictures keep Person(s) busy who need to snort and giggle like 10-year-olds.

    I’m seriously thinking of doing a weekly news digest based on them, depending on how much interest I get based on my adsense click reports from this website and my own

    Jet

  • zingzing

    el bicho: “he’s got you there, zing”

    hypocrisy can run two ways, can’t it? besides, i gave him/her the out (the first option), and i’m not really into the wars. nor would i back up the regime that started those wars (and i did attend some protests against them). and their continuing existence does bother me.

    “then why didn’t zing write “itself”?”

    “go fuck itself” doesn’t roll off the tongue as easily in the structure of the sentence as written, but in the interest of fairness, if iran is into nukes and nuking other countries (such as israel), it can go fuck itself.

    that said, person does seem like the type of person who probably should go and do something willfully perverse to him or herself to release whatever pressures are creating the person we see before us. nothing like a little self-lovins.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m proud to be Anti-American, especially when contrasted with Kurtz’s self-proclaimed identity as a proud Zionist. In fact, I consider it a badge of honor, an emblem of a thinking person, a position arrived after long struggle with one’s conscience and breaking out from the prejudices of the past, not an expression of those prejudices.

    Instead of “troll’s” abstract question, I am reposing an earlier-voiced, intermediate question:

    “Why does an anti-Zionist need to deny the Holocaust (or take any position in this matter) to be anti-Zionist?”

  • troll

    …and I’d still like Person to tell us what happens to folks in Iran who publicly contradict Shiite dogma

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    241-Which requires an intelligent answer… Troll-you silly!

  • troll

    …you know me Jet

    how’s it hang’n?

  • Clavos

    and I’d still like Person to tell us what happens to folks in Iran who publicly contradict Shiite dogma

    Or, in the interests of alliteration: Shiite shit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m not casting aspersions, but the thought which comes to mind is:

    “Person, meet Ruvy, Ruvy, meet Person.”

    It’s like the old Star Trek episode in which two nearly identical antagonists battle one another till death: one of them if black on the right side while white on the left; the other vice versa.

    Which kind of explains Ruvy’s conspicuous absence on this thread. It’s not inspiring to be confronted with one’s own spitting imag

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    One of my New Year’s resolutions was to cut down on my cussing Troll, and it’s been fucking hard…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    …I should probably rephrase that

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Roger, I think you mean the transporter accident where Kirk is split into two people, one good, one evil

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    That was a variation on the theme, Jet. The one I meant had to do with two aliens chasing one another across the Universe. There was no good or evil question here. They were two peas in the pod except for appearance.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    To refresh your memory, Frank Gorshin played the dual character.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski
  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    250… Wrong, Gorshin only played one of them… and you call yourself a trekkie?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m not a trekkie or icky or dickey. Forgive my oversight, your highness.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Frank Gorshin … Bele
    Lou Antonio … Lokai

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    pspstttttttttttttttttt

  • Person

    In case new readers of this thread are curious why this thread is 256 posts and counting, it is because Person has apparently struck a nerve with the zionists by posting things they never thought they would see:

    David Cole

    Ernst Zundel

    talmud

    I am laughing so hard each time they scramble to censor these by spamming the thread with gibberish. If you think your readers are fooled, you may be disappointed. Come on, guys, start again!

  • troll

    …you have questions to answer Person

    or does the following logic (a form of which you introduced above) hold:

    Person is Iranian
    Person is a liar
    therefore Iranians are liars whose mothers wear combat boots

    gibberish – it’s what we do…proposed new tagline for BC

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    That’s why Person was gone so long just now, he saw things when he clicked over on my Gay Pride site that he thought he’d never see and couldn’t stop looking.

    As for so many people on this thread, well we all need a good laugh now and then and fortunately you’re providing us with one.

    Or are you so naive as to notice no one’s supporting your point of view or begging for more links?

  • Person

    Um, troll, you and I know full well that the points I raised were not addressed.

    Not once did anyone respond to David Cole‘s analysis of the so-called murderous gas chambers in Auswitch–or the fact that David Cole is a Hebrew (or what some would call a Jew) and questioned the holocaust. No one even mentioned the name David Code, much less bemoan the fact that he was silenced.

    The same holds true for the talmud. While zionists and their puppets continued to insinuate that Shia Islam purports to kill non-beleivers (which I heftily refuted), no one mentioned how the talmud reveals that Judaism says to kill non-Hebrews who even read the talmud.

    While zionist hypocrisy such as this stares readers in the face, rest assured that I am not the only one who takes your responses with several grains of kosher salt.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    He wears his shoes on his head Troll as an arabic insult to his brain…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Using David Cole as a knowledgeable reference point for the Holocaust is like using Whoopie Goldberg as a reference to the tea party

  • troll

    …Person is a liar

    eof

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    How’s my little experiment today in the self regulating community working out?

    Personally I’ve almost had enough of this person…

  • troll

    I think that it’s working out rather well

    got a few laughs and determined that Person won’t answer questions as promised – surprise surprise

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I appear to have missed the humour – and it was blatantly evident s/he was never going to engage in any honest communication days ago.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Re #263: It’s working out great! Your heavy hand has been a welcome omission.

  • Clavos

    Nooooooo, Chris, let him keep going!!

    As Jet said, we need the laughs…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    It’s not his fault, someone keeps throwing a stick out his front door every time he goes to answer something and he’s gone for ten minutes…

    When he comes back he’s forgotten what it was he was going to say, so he keeps posting links until he thinks of a snappy retort concerning Zionists.

  • Clavos

    Put a sock in it, Kurtz…

  • troll

    I appear to have missed the humour

    duh – you’re a brit and this was sepo work

  • Clavos

    duh – you’re a brit and this was sepo work

    ROFLMFAO!!!

  • troll

    (we’ll be here all week)

  • Clavos

    Don’t forget — meh, never mind…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Clavos, that was troll, not Jet, but I take your point.

    Alan, I know logic isn’t your strongest skill but, if I did actually have a heavy hand, there would be far more stuff deleted from this site than in fact there is. You keep polishing that hate though, I’m sure its toxicity feels good to you.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Um Chris… 2nd paragraph of 258

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    It’s seppo, not sepo, troll, and you Yanks aren’t really well known for your sense of humour for some reason.

  • Clavos

    Chris,

    From #258 – Jet:

    As for so many people on this thread, well we all need a good laugh now and then…

  • troll

    seppo – good point…I’ll remember that

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    And you guys think that is funny? As I said, Americans aren’t known for their humour…

  • Clavos

    Seppo is ‘strine — you can spell any way you want…(Stan told me so)

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Someday Person will go to heaven and realize all those honey virgins are men!

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    268 about the stick wasn’t funny?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    It comes from the word septic but if it was “sepo” it would be pronounced “saypo”.

  • troll

    #279 …I think that’s what Person was saying

  • Clavos

    Been meaning to talk to you about this, Chris: “if it was” should be “if it were.” :-)

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Clavos, Stan thinks a lot of things are ‘strine, but it is in fact pure Cockney rhyming slang.

    Surely “if it were” would be subjunctive, wouldn’t it? I don’t like the subjunctive much even when speaking Spanish and wasn’t using it here. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    …as it were

  • Clavos

    I don’t like the subjunctive much even when speaking Spanish and wasn’t using it here.

    Chris, that doesn’t wash even in ‘strine…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Jet, umm, not a lot!

    troll, I haven’t understood anything Person has written because it is all gibberish but I do know propaganda when I see it.

  • Clavos

    I haven’t understood anything Person has written because it is all gibberish but I do know propaganda when I see it.

    Quoted for Truth.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Oh, sorry, I was trying to find a Paul Keating quote that might fit here.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Sorry for the delay, I’m cooking Nasi Goreng at the other end of the house.

    I’d never even heard of the subjunctive until I started studying Spanish.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Nazi Goering! I thought we cooked his goose 66 years ago.

  • Clavos

    LOL!

    Not bad, Al!

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I guess you could put goose in a Nasi but this one has chicken and prawns

  • Clavos

    What, Chris? You didn’t go to grade school?

  • Clavos

    Or you weren’t paying attention?

    Which is it?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Dunno what grade school is, so obviously I didn’t. Isn’t English English more direct?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    In case new readers of this thread are curious why this thread is 256 posts and counting …

    Person (#256), at Blogcritics, the total number of posts in any given thread can be misleading. As the present thread illustrates, volume does not necessarily denote a disparate response. To the contrary, the 298 preceding comments were posted by only 24 unique visitors. Here are the top seven:

    Person: 54
    Alan Kurtz: 37
    Christopher Rose: 32
    Clavos: 29
    troll: 25
    roger nowosielski: 24
    Jet Gardner: 23

    All of these, except yourself, are veteran denizens of BC commentary threads, as are several others with fewer posts. So it’s certainly not the case that your contributions to this thread have stirred up the masses or attracted more than a handful of new visitors. It’s just the same old dogs and ponies, up to their same old tricks.

    As for your charge that we infidels are scrambling to censor your immortal thoughts “by spamming the thread with gibberish,” you misunderstand our sense of frivolity, which is especially on display from comments 260 onward. It’s not spam, it’s nasi goreng–an Indonesian dish we Westerners savor as a delicacy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    @289

    For a while I thought you said you didn’t understand any Persian (just like in “it’s Greek to me”).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    @289

    Except for Ruvy, the replica of “Person” in a Zionist garb.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    “Person, meet Ruvy, Ruvy, meet Person.”

    It’s like the old Star Trek episode in which two nearly identical antagonists battle one another till death: one of them if black on the right side while white on the left; the other vice versa.

    Which kind of explains Ruvy’s conspicuous absence on this thread. It’s not inspiring to be confronted with one’s own spitting image.

    As usual, Roger’s arrogance (and ignorance) prevents him from seeing the patently obvious. The main things that have caused me not to comment here are

    1. the understanding that arguing with liars and fools is a waste of time;
    2. I actually keep the Sabbath – as I’m the ONLY Jew who has commented on this thread – which means that from 17:00 Israel Winter Time on Friday until at least 18:15 Israel Winter Time today, I was not on this computer;
    3. and I’m too busy laughing my ass off at the idiocy I read here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    You ought to have added, “intelligence agents.”

    As to my arrogance (not to mention ignorance as to your exact whereabouts since you haven’t been briefing me lately), I take full responsibility.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Just to be clear, the pro-Persian commenters here basically parrot the usual propaganda bullshit, sluiced with Jew-hatred. I don’t expect anything different from them. That’s like expecting a bear to piss in a toilet like a man, and it is not fair.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Clavos

    I thought you’re in the south?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Wherever KY is, it’s always 20 years behind the times, as Mark Twain had once remarked. Make it fifty by now.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As I said earlier, the pro-Persian commenters here basically parrot the usual propaganda bullshit, sluiced with Jew-hatred. I don’t expect anything different from them. That’s like expecting a bear to piss in a toilet like a man, and it is not fair. And the link to an article that purports to be about the Talmud proves my words. One idiot quotes a second idiot and the two of them are geniuses.

    When Salman Rushdie wrote a book that was not quite reverential about Muhammad, Muslim authorities issued a fatwa – an order calling for Rushdie’s death – and tried to have him murdered off. Perhaps it would be fitting to have the Israeli government order the Mossad to kill off this prick, Michael Hoffman, and put him out of our misery. It follows the same conceptualization – diss us and we murder you. I’ll have to mention it to some friends of mine…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Show me where I supported Persian propaganda and the attendant blood-lust, or where I supported the Zionist propaganda along with its own blood-lust, and I’ll kiss your arse.

  • Clavos

    Ype,that’s it — I become “emotinonal” at the drop of an article…

    yawn

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Except for Ruvy, the replica of “Person” in a Zionist garb.

    Roger, you keep doing the same stupid things in your comments – you drag me into them where I’ve said or done nothing. Get used to it, Roger. Spit in my borscht, and I’ll piss in yours.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Tell you the truth, Ruvy, I don’t see much difference between you and “Person” when it comes to militancy and the religious fervor quotients. I suppose you’re more resolute than he in some respects, just dying to know which.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I get it now. For you it’s an existential imperative, for “Person” just a matter of conquest.

  • Person

    Hey Roger, guess what:

    This debate is done. Person has won hands-down–and the proof is in the pudding. My posts (which are no less insulting than those of others and which merely re-state the unanswered questions that have brought this discussion to above 300 posts) have now been silently deleted, with no explanation or notice. (See Ruvy and Clavo’s responses to my missing post [#306] in what are currently #307 and #309).

    Thank you zionist moderators for doing me the huge favor of proving that a) I crushed you in the debate, b) the West does censor those who speak the truth. The fact that 10,000 zionists got it handed to them by a single Person was another proof.

    We, in Iran see right through your intellectual cowardice and have proven, once again, why we reject your empty culture.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    But you still haven’t answered mine. What has Holocaust got to do with anything? Why do you need to deny it, or to affirm it, in order to maintain your anti-Zionist stance?

  • Person

    Roger, if you are a true man of courage, you would know that continuing to debate on a Western media site that silently deletes the postings of the single defender of one side is a complete waste of time.

    Would you continue to debate on an Iranian site if they started to silently delete your posts? Or would you come to the natural conclusion that you had already won?

  • Clavos

    This debate is done.

    There was never a “debate,” just you raving maniacally and calling everyone within shouting distance a “zionist,” whatever the hell that is.

    Person has won hands-down…

    Person is nothing more than a legend in his own mind — you can’t win what never was, dude.

    …which merely re-state the unanswered questions that have brought this discussion to above 300 posts)

    Your “questions” went unanswered because they were asinine, dude. And you had absolutely nothing to do with bringing the thread to “above 300,” that’s not even a an exceptional total for this site, where we’ve had threads go well above 1,000 posts in real discussions.

    It’s fitting you live in California, fondly referred to by those who don’t live there as “la-la land.” (Sorry, Doc — there’s always room for exceptions)

    Peace out, dude. I hope that maniac running your country doesn’t get you in one of his bombing runs on his own people — you probably should stay away until he’s killed — just to be safe.

  • Person

    Semi-literate sell outs can say whatever they want.

    Everyone else knows that if they went onto an Iranian site and that started to silently delete their postings, that they would come to the natural conclusion that they had won. Anyone who says otherwise only says so because they hate me and the truth I spoke.

  • Clavos

    In case you do decide to go back, Person, give my best to Ahmadinejad and Khameini…

    But don’t cross them, dude.

  • Person

    I find it funny that Clavos wants to act like a big shot once I already showed that the zionist moderators have started to silently delete my posts. Notice how he does not deny it or that he would rightly feel victorious if an Iranian site had done the same to him.

    Readers of this debate see right through that kind of cowardice.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Clavos, it looks like “person” is finally getting disgusted. He can’t handle the relatively mild (albeit capricious) censorship here.

  • Person

    And I find it laughable that the zionist moderators, who have already exposed themselves and their tactics, also lie that my IP address is from California. I am, and always have been, writing from Najafabad, Iran. Where that proxies to, I have no idea.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Hey “person”! Say hi to your friends in the Basiji for me. You’ll have to wave your fist at the other evil Zionists on the site. This Jew-boy is getting some shut-eye. I need my beauty sleep if I’m to oppress those “poor Palestinians” tomorrow, and see to it that our concentration camps for them are working properly….

  • Person

    I will. I am also going to sleep Ruvy–way past my bedtime. I will sleep easy knowing that this zionist site handed me the icing on the cake of victory by silently deleting my postings.

    No one can deny that if an Iranian site had done the same to you, that you would know that you had won. I will be prepared to laugh at all of you in the morning with your teenagerish whining, post-loss. Nothing you say can take the victory away and I know that you all know it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    “Person”, that nice Basiji agent posting out of an IP address that is supposed to be California, has reposted his links. The first two are Youtube videos “not available in your country”. The last is that pathetic chop job by an ignorant prick who should be shot dead. Lies like his (the ignorant prick) caused deaths of Jews in centuries past, and may well cause deaths of Jews in the near future. My full comment on it can be found upthread.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    For those still reading here, I want you to all notice the constant reference to “Zionists” by this “person” from Persia, who alleges that he defends his nation from the lies of the “Zionist moderator”, and the “ten thousand Zionists” who cannot seem to debate him.

    I am a Jew. I was once a Zionist. But nobody else commenting on this thread is a Jew. Mr. Kurtz took the title “Zionist” with a certain pride when accused and attacked by this “person”.

    Let’s take a listen to an interview on Israel National Radio of Dr. Phyllis Chesler by Tamar Yonah. She begins the interview talking about a woman reporter, Lara Logan, who was gang-raped by a mob of 200 Egyptian men who attacked her with flag-poles and bit her genitals and breasts. The interview goes on to talk about Egypt as country where the gang-rape of women is normal. I would daresay that Persia is no more civilized than Egypt, and a Persian woman is just as subject to groping and rape as an Egyptian woman is. I know for a fact that Persians have an istitution of sexual enslavement of boys that they are proud of, and that this custom of pedophelia has spread like a cancer through Central Asia. I would also ask you to note the mob raping Lara Logan repeatedly called her “Jew”. The worst thing you can be called in many circles these days is “Zionist”.

    These barbaric animals dare to lecture us! They dare to whine and complain, all the while screaming “Zionist!” and “Jew!”

    They treat their women and children like animals – and they would have us bow to their trash of a “civilization”?

    He who curses Israel shall be accursed. He who blesses Israel shall be blessed. [Gen:12:3]

    There was never a debate here. There was never anything to debate. The “person” who sought to defend his country just cannot answer to the facts of sexual abuse in his country, to the facts of vicious treatment of his own citizenry, to the massive pedophelia that exists institutionally in Persia. The hand of the Persian is at least as bloody as the hand of the Westerner. The psychosis of violence is at least as bad. The murderous intent of the smiling Ahmadinjad is just as murderous as the screaming Hitler he emulates. The evil that this man would impose upon all of you with his 12th Imam is at least as barbaric.

    Those of you who refuse to see this will suffer – and suffer terribly – before you are allowed to see the destruction of this trash of a civilization.

  • Person

    Ok, Ruvy, keep emotionally whining post-loss. The attempt by the moderators of this zionist site to censor the truth (David Cole, Ernst Zundel, talmud) speaks volumes and your readers know it. They were stunned, burning inside, and had no option but to censor.

    We will keep laughing at your, and their, teenagerish antics.

  • Clavos

    We will keep laughing at your, and their, teenagerish antics.

    I certainly hope so, the world needs more laughter in these perilous times.

    Thank you for the “teenagerish” adjective; it’s been so long since I actually was one I can’t even remember what it was like, so to be thought of as one at my age is high praise indeed.

    I’m def jiggy with it, dude.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    ((THE RISE OF PERSIAN EMPIRE))

    THE CIVILIZATION THAT SAVED THE JEWS FROM SLAVERY OVER 2000 REARS AGO.
    THE JEWS OWED THEIR VERY EXISTENCE TODAY TO ACT OF HUMANITY BY THE PERSIAN EMPIRE.

    HOWEVER OVER 2000 YEARS THE JEWS DID NOT LEARNED THE LESSON OF HISTORY, WHO LIVE BY THE SORD SHALL DIE BY THE SORD.

    FOR THOSE WHO STILL READIND HERE, I WANT YOU TO BE THE JUDGE.

    CODE- WE MUST USE TERROR, ASSASSINATION, INTIMIDATION, LAND CONFSCATION,AND CUTTING OF ALL SOCIAL SERVICES TO RID THE GALILEE OF ITS ARAB POPULATION., (( DAVID BEN GURION, THE FOUNDER OF ISRAEL, MAY 1948. UNCODE.))

    DURING ALL CENTURIES, AFTER JEWS FREED BY THE HAND OF PERSIAN. STILL UP TO THIS DAY CONTINUOUSLY ACT THE SAME WAY AS THEY DID AT THE TIME OF MOSES, BY TURNING THEIR BACK AGAIST THE GOD AND WORSHIP GOLD AND SILVER.
    AND EVEN CHOOSE GOLD AND SILVER FOR THEIR NAME AS SUCH WE SEE TODAY AS SILVERSTEIN AND GOLDSTEIN AND GOLDBERG,GOLDAMIERR ETC,ETC. AND CONSEQUENTLY PUNISHED BY GOD OVER AND OVER AND ONER.

    I am an American, U.S. is the greatest nation on earth with people who work hard and honestly for their living and most beleive in God and creation but I do not forget where I came from, Iam a proud Persian, a country who introduced the civilization and culture within its border from Egypt to china and byound.

    It is amazing that an intity named Israel with the size of a village called itself nation. Israel do not have anything of its own and produce nothing of its own or can defend itself on its own and only by the grace of the people of the United States America it has survived so far. Israel steal United States defence secret and other technolegy and sell that to India , China and Russia in order to buy influence and friends. Isael is a blood sucker to the United States and a cancer cell in the Middle East, it is not from the Middle East. it was imposed on the Middle East by western country through a Zionist master plan which conspired by elite Zionist Jews over 100 years ago in Europe. Israel is the entity which was imposed on the land of Palestin and million Palestinian people forced to live in poverty and desperation. The people of the United States do not have clear picture of the kind of misery the Palestinian people facing in every day to. days life in their own land. in fact life in palistanian land is hell which delibertly created by Israel. And that is the reason in Iran Israel is called as IsraHell, because it created Hell for Palestinian in their occupaid land. the barbaric regime of Israel is not a democracy and far from it. Israel is Jewish theological entity which do not tolerat any other religion, including Christianity. If the hand of western country is bloody not only in the Middle East but all over the world is because of the Zionist movement crave for money and wealth. In U.S. and most of Europe official been paid and been elected by the money and backing of the Zionist movement. in U.S. at least 90 percent of elected official in County, State, and Federal level, serve the interest of Zionist movement, because those official owed their position to the lobby and the money and support those lobby presented to them. and that is exactly the reason the U.S. is in crisis today. The zionist movement own or control the banking and financial sector, they control the defence industry, the entertainment industry, the wast management industry the oil and gas industry and on and on. and the zionist systematically bankrupt the united States. All these wars only benefit the Zionist and the people of the great nation of united State paying with their Taxes and their life to faten the belly of this monster called Zionist. The people of the United State got to stop and think about the future. How long our people must be subservent to the interest of Zionist and Israel, its time to stop to support this barbaric and monster regime called Israel. and start to building our frendship with the other nation on the Middle East. time is short, the people of the Middle East already revolting and want to be treated as equals. Islamic Republic of Iran is not The enemy of the United States. Iran is waithing for the United State to act by deed and not by speach and accept whatever Iranian people want for their future. Islamic Republic of Iran is a rising star in the Middle East and the most stable. and as U.S. power and influence in the region due to the past mistreatment of the people of Middle East, and in support of Irsael wans, the influence of the Islamic Republic of Iran is more evidenced. today Iran is the powerhouse of the Middle East and as president Obama in his letter to Iranian leader acknoleged nothing in the region can be accomplished without Iranian cooperation.
    I close my comment by a code from the popular pressident of Iran. Honorable Dr Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:

    THE WORLD IS IN NEED OF A JUST SYSTEM OF RULE THAT PUT AN END TO OPPRESSION, OCCUPATION, AND HUMILIATION OF THE PEOPLE. IT IS THE WAVE THAT IS COMMING.

    GOD BLESS ALL.

  • Person

    God bless you and God keep you, brother Reza. You are truly a man of class to be looked up to.

    I hope you also enjoyed this one-sided debate (for us), despite being out numbered over 30 to 2. I really enjoyed reading fiction from “experts” on our country who have never been there and have such a huge vested interest against us. We both know that almost all foreigners who visit Iran go back home loving it and our real culture.

    Our debate was never about defending Iran–we never needed to defend it to anyone. It was the Westerners who were on the defensive about themselves and about who is in charge of their culture. That is why they could not respond, attempted overwhelming numbers, used comical tactics, and eventually got so frustrated that they tried to censor. So sad for them that they do not learn and are too arrogant to look for change.

    May God protect you and keep you strong and successful.

  • Clavos

    You leave in a dream world of your own creation, Person.

    Have some more Kool Aid…

  • Person

    yawn…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    …or some of that marvellous coffee I’ve heard you have over there.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Dear person
    thank you for your complement and your kind word. I was honored to know you, your dedication and honesty .

    Please do not be disapointed the way you are treated in this site by the editor or others who work here. We were not 2 agaist 30. I spent most of my life in this country and very well know how the system work. almost 95 percent of American living on day to day and paycheck to paycheck, and always concern about their future and their job. and in that atmospher of fear, they have to follow the order and please their superior and other interested special group who advertise or contribute to their site.( Please see on the top of the first page of this article which placed advertisment for Zionist intity and how worry they are, and flag pin ) And as we know the Zionist control most of the media and communication in this country and as such have power to retaliate swiftly against whoever may allow such anti zionist comment to be viewed. And in fact I have to credit Alen Kurtz for his courage to allow our veiw point to be seen without censor. On others some just play around with you because you act serious, and the others probably influenced by anti Islam and anti Iran propaganda which reflect in their comments. onece again thank you for all the comment which I enjoyed to read and God keep you safe and sound.

    [Personal contact info deleted]

  • Clavos

    almost 95 percent of American living on day to day and paycheck to paycheck…

    You just shredded your last tattered bit of credibility, Reza. If you believe that propaganda, I have a very nice bridge from Miami to Key West I’d like to sell you.

    Person lost his (her?) credibility about 330 comments ago.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Clav – you gonna sell him the old one or hte new one?

  • Clavos

    The old one of course, Andy; we’re using the new one as an overflow runway for Miami airport…

  • Reza Tavakolian

    CLAVOS- The U.S. unemployment rate officially is around 10 percent however they do not include part time employment. some even arguing the unemployment rate actually is around 18 to 20 percent. tell me how much money you saved and those people you know and how long it keep them going if they lose their job or may be you are exception. I am sure you saw family who lost everything after they lost their job and forced to live under the bridge or shelter. The other day I saw in TV, number of vetern of Afghnistan and Iraq war who were homeless and you know militery pay well but after discharge no job and then you are homeless. with all the money we spent on so called defense in fact bankrup this country. do you know it take one Million dollers to prepare a soldier to send to Afghanistan. and we are borrowing it from China. do you know we are paying about 5 million dollers interest every minute for our national debt and like a panzy game we borrow from paul to pay to peter. Do you really want me go on and on. Unless you born rich or employed, it take you one or two months to be homeless. and again if you still not convenced come down in Atlanta and I take you to some shelter and soup ketchen to show you how many people to show up for a meal. I beleave you know all these, but probably embarrassed and do not want PERSON to see it. I did not want to reveal it to outside because this is our dirty laundry and it is better to keep it to ourself and pretend to be the wealtiest nation on eart. but do not question my credibility unless you have some hard evidence to the contrary. AND BY THE WAY YOU CAN NOT AFFORD TO SELL ME A BRIDGE FROM MIAMI TO THE KEY WEST IF YOU ARE LIVING UNDER THE BRIDGE, AFTER YOU USED YOUR LAST PAYCHECK.

  • Clavos

    No, Reza, I’m doing just fine financially, thank you.

    And of course there’s unemployment; we are in the midst of one of the worst recessions in our history and unfortunately have an inept president who doesn’t know how to deal with it, so it has lasted longer than it should have and likely will last quite a bit longer.

    But, even with all these problems, most Americans are working. We have poverty, yes, but here again, our “safety nets” are such that they are poor only in the context of the USA; in world context, the average “poor” person in the USA is MUCH better off than a poor person in my birth country of Mexico, in fact, a “poor” person in the USA is better off, both financially and in terms of quality of life, than many WORKING people in Mexico — and much of Latin America, not to mention most of Africa.

    You are way overstating the case, Reza, but I’m not surprised, you have an axe to grind.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Hi CLAVOS
    No I am not, That is what every body say here( your are a pay check from poverty), however I agree with you about other nation.

    By the way are you living in Miami.??

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Though Clavos is quite mistaken about how well our president has done with the recovery despite the record levels of obstructionism by the minority party, I feel I must add to his list of areas where a poor person in America is often better off:

    “…and in most of Asia.”…for I can personally attest to this as well.

    That, and it sure feels nice holding an American passport which means that no matter what country I’m in, if something happens to me, my nation will take action. That’s why in Asia, Americans are largely untouched (and the few times they are makes international news). You rarely hear about tourists from other countries being kidnapped…because their nations won’t or can’t put diplomatic or even military pressure on the government of the country in question, and so it doesn’t become newsworthy.

    To be sure, there are places where Americans are foolish to tread…but for the vast majority of the world, yeah, it’s nice to know that our government really does have our back to a FAR greater extent than can be said of any other nation on Earth.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And for Reza –

    There are better places to live than in America…but to summarize my previous comment, there’s no better citizenship to be had than that of AMERICAN.

    I’ve got many, many gripes against my government – and so does Clavos, and so does just about every other American. But you know what’s really, truly special about America? Anyone, absolutely ANYONE can come here and truly become an American!

    I cannot go to Iran and become an Iranian – even if I got Iranian citizenship, I’d never be truly considered an Iranian by anyone there. The same goes for every other nation on Earth…

    …except for America. Sure, we still have racism and we still have many who distrust other religions, but the same is true of ALL other nations, and we have a national tradition of protecting those who face such discrimination in America.

    So…yeah, we ARE special. We’ve got our own problems (and I’m SO tempted to say something about a certain segment of the population with affinities for elephants and the color red), but for all our problems, for all our shortcomings, the most treasured citizenship in the world is AMERICAN, and for many very good reasons.

    It’s not often I go on a patriotic rant – I usually brag more about other cultures and other nations – but you are posting comments and opinions based on ignorance, and I will not stand by silently while you spread such untruths.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    @334

    What would you say is a realistic figure, Clavos?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Glenn, more often than not you make some kind of sense but your #341 has the lowest signal to noise ratio ever.

    It is total BS to say anyone can come to America in the first place and, certain mostly coastal areas excluded to a certain degree, it is a very provincial and difficult place to live.

    It is also no longer the land of the free but one of the most heavily regulated and policed countries in the West.

    Time was I would have emigrated to the States as have various close relatives of mine but that time has long passed.

    Responding to Reza’s nonsense with yet more nonsense is even worse than your pointless long term arguments with Clavos and Cannonshop.

    American exceptionalism is so 20th Century, unfortunately…

  • Richard E

    Christopher, I think exceptionalism, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Christopher –

    Did you see the line where I said, “There are better places to live than America”? I meant that…and that’s why I’ll be an expat soon, hopefully within a few months. If Canada weren’t so cold, I’d choose Vancouver or Victoria B.C. in a heartbeat. But it’s off to a warmer climate I go.

    But my point was not about whether America was the best place to live – it was about which citizenship is most treasured, and I included valid reasons for that.

    Are we really heavily regulated? Yes…and no. IMO the worst regulation we suffer is not from the government, but from of the three major credit-check agencies. We also suffer from lack of regulation in our financial markets, and the worst governmental regulation we have is a direct result of our national overreaction to 9/11…and our illegal war in Iraq. But time will come that the looney-tunes Right will fade, and then perhaps we can join the more sensible countries such as Canada.

  • Person

    Brother Reza,

    Nice points, as usual.

    I love how this thread is now being drawn out by those who earlier went silent when presented with: David Cole, Ernst Zundel, and the talmud.

    This is probably because they are ashamed that this site was caught silently deleting my postings–and are ashamed that the debate was already in the bag long before that.

    Notice how they went silent when I said “if an Iranian site had started to silently delete your postings, you would also claim victory.” Beyond teenagerisms, censorship, and “innocent” diversion, nothing of relevance has been posted since. Am I incorrect?

    I wonder if any of the Westerners are brave enough to engage in the substance of either of the three points–or is intellectual cowardice a part of American and British “exceptionalism”?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    “went silent”? You flatter yourself.

    You may not realize this, but not all of us have a great deal of time to waste on the computer. We have jobs, family obligations, church duties, et cetera.

    You speak of ‘intellectual cowardice’, and yet you earlier defended the incredibly infantile idea that the Holocaust never occurred. When you did that, that put you in the same category of those who deny the moon landings.

    Goodbye, and farewell.

  • Person

    Glenn, look for yourself who has the most postings recently. I call your claim hypocrisy, and rightly so.

    Next “exceptionalist.” Who has the ability to discuss any of the substance of any of my three points. Let me guess–no one.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Person, what’s the difference between this nonsense and the muck you posted regarding the Talmud; and the difference between this and anything you might post to refute the “Prophet of Doom”?

    For myself, I’m of the opinion that this “my religion can beat up your religion” stuff is all bullshit.

  • Clavos

    This is probably because they are ashamed that this site was caught silently deleting my postings–and are ashamed that the debate was already in the bag long before that.

    I have no shame about that whatever, Person, I know that if you had comments deleted, they were expunged for being in violation of the Blogcritics Comment Policy.

    Further, After watching the videos of David Cole and Ernst Zundel, I am now completely convinced that Holocaust deniers are crazy people, right up there with the crazy people who deny the moon landings and 9/11.

    I don’t buy their loony theories.

    And I find it difficult to believe that anyone actually would.

  • Person

    Dreadful, am I correct in assuming that your response would go into the “diversion” category?

    If not, I am prepared to answer your points in context to mine. But I assume that you are too afraid to debate me. Let me know.

  • Richard E.

    How can you tell when a Person is a changeling?

  • Person

    Riche, does that mean that you have the skill to debate me on the substance of any of the three points? Somehow, I assume that you are also all talk and no walk, like Dreadful and Glenn.

  • Person

    And Clavos, what do you mean by “IF you had comments deleted”? Your own posting (#309) is a response to one of my silently deleted posts.

    You are certainly discredited, hermano.

    Any other “exceptionalists” who can muster the skill to analyze substance of any of the three points?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Dreadful, am I correct in assuming that your response would go into the “diversion” category?

    Person, I was responding directly to one of the links you keep posting. Why would you consider that a diversion?

    But I assume that you are too afraid to debate me.

    Your assumption, and your arrogance, is unfounded.

  • Person

    Dreadful, Excellent. Let me first start by complementing your spirit. God loves those who are truthful and defend what they believe is right.

    Before we start, would you be able to do me the pleasure of answering this one question:

    “If you had gone onto an Iranian site that started silently deleting your postings, would you or would you not rightly feel victorious”?

    I think that is a relevant question before moving forward. I am just curious to know your opinion.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Christopher Ros

    THE LAND OF FREE AND BRAVE.
    THE GAME IS OVER

    I certainly agree with your assesment on American exceptionalism or lack of it.

    There was time to be American means something exception reflected the mirror of the lands of the free and the brave, and I remember J.F. Kennedy as the mirror of such reflection that to be American means to be free, to be just, to be firm, to set goals and to work tirelesly to accomplish such goals no matter what the consequences. he set the goals for American to go to moon in ten yeas and stood firm eye to eye agaist the soviat Union and did not blink.(( I see such characteristic in the Iranian president Ahmadinejad )) However in 20 century Our republican president G.W. Bush,
    destroyed two contry and kill over half a million people IN ORDER TO FIND AND PUNISH A TERRORIST, WHICH IN FACT APPOINTED FINANCED AND TRAINED BY UNITED STATE OF AMERICA. He put on a pilot uniform and declear that mission is accomplished. ((Recently he canceled his trip to swiss to promote his book, because he has been told he might be arrested for crime agaist humanity)) Our republican president when he was in office actualy protecting not Americaqn but the Zionist interest and was rewarded accordingly. then came our democrat president with all promises for change and to end the war in Iraq and decisive victory in Afghanistan that never matrealized. and to the contrary he expand the Afghanistan war. Our democrat president afer been elected went to Saudi Arabia and to my disbleive actually bowed and kiss the hand of this despicable tyrant the King of Saudi Arabia Here the leader of free world (If you believe of such)kiss the hand of a dictator and probebly if the king bend over he could kiss (you know what) for the right reason $$$$$. this is tody’sad reality of our state of union and what became of us, the land of brave and the free. DID I MISS SOME THING TO BE PROUD OF??? Silly Question of course I did. I am proud of the fact that United State finally was able to pay the 14 plus thrillion dollats of debt and have surplus. I am proud of the U.S. goverment which finally put all people who can work back to work. I am proud of the U.S. goverment to finally after 10 years war in Afghanistan completly destroyed the Taleban and Al Queda. and also defeated all enemy and put a democracy back in Iraq. and most of all I am proud of our goverment that actually admit that the Iraq and Afghanistan war was based on lies and deception and was for the profit and the control of the Iraq’s oil and other natural resources.
    Gentleman, it is sad but this country is bankrupt and the titanic is already is sinking, and it is only a matter of time to face the reality and accept the fact that there is no life boats to save us. For some of you with lower, IQ, it is like if your house been foreclosed by your bank, for a while there is no mortgage to pay and you are living free. It take from 4 to 24 months before shiriff knock on your door and evect you AND YOU FINALLY REALIZE THE GAME IS OVER

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    “If you had gone onto an Iranian site that started silently deleting your postings, would you or would you not rightly feel victorious”?

    “Victorious” isn’t the right word. I try not to approach things with preconceived expectations. I’d be annoyed and perhaps frustrated, but I’d also recognize that it was the prerogative of those in charge of the site.

  • Clavos

    hermano

    Thankfully, I am not your brother in any sense.

  • Clavos

    AND YOU FINALLY REALIZE THE GAME IS OVER

    The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Thankfully, I am not your brother in any sense.

    Although technically, you are very, very, very, very distant cousins…

    :-)

  • Clavos

    Perish the thought…

  • Person

    Dreadful, Ok, fair enough regarding censorship. I tend to think a fairer site would notify and warn you when deleting entire postings. But the point has now been made.

    Regarding the substance of the talmud, here is my first question:

    Is is not true that most Christians, such as our American friend Glenn, appear to think the Torat (or Old Testament) is the highest source of law in Judaism? That has certainly been my experience when speaking with Christians.

    As we can see here (talmud analysis):

    In religious school (yeshiva), Jews are “devoted to the Talmud to the exclusion of everything else.”

    Is it not interesting how Jews seem to hide this fact and claim strong “Judeo-Christian” links with Christians, when, in fact, the Jews now believe in so much more than what the Old Testament says?

    —–

    By the way, I will be away from the computer for a few hours, but will respond to your response when I return.

  • Person

    And, by the way, imbecile attacks during our debate speak more about those that make them than those who receive them.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I find the way Person, who still lacks the courage and integrity to identify his or her self whilst we corrupt, dishonest Westerners (do they do sarcasm in Iran?) are not hiding our identities, avoids answering our questions whilst repeating their own unfounded nonsense quite bizarre.

    It makes me think of some mad interrogation in which one has to defend oneself against imaginary accusations but the interrogator won’t listen. I wonder where they got that habit?

    Because Iran is such a beacon of freedom and honesty in international politics I also ask a second question for Person to consider or ignore.

    I’d like to know if they support the arrest yesterday, after weeks of house arrest, of Iranian political opposition leaders Mirhossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi and their wives and their incarceration in Heshmatiyeh jail in Tehran?

  • troll

    …Person,who still lacks the courage and integrity to identify his or her self…

    as you don’t know Person’s reasoning or circumstances here this amounts to nothing if not a personal attack

    I request that you censor yourself Chris

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I don’t think that amounts to a personal attack, troll.

    You also know nothing about their reasoning or circumstances and whoever they are they are quite capable of speaking on their own behalf.

    Does your request mean you are abandoning your previously stated preference for an unmanaged environment?

  • troll

    …accusing someone of being a coward and lacking integrity isn’t a personal attack?

    just your opinion right?

    your behavior is the only thing in need of management here

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Christopher Rose (#367), previously in this thread (#62), you called Person a “little coward.” That was deemed a personal attack and accordingly deleted by your assistant comments editor.

    Now (#365), you again attack Person for lacking “courage and integrity.”

    Either you need a new assistant who invariably agrees with you, or you need to get a grip on your own personal animosity towards this particular commenter.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    troll, if you want to take it further, I believe you know what to do.

    I am only human and if I have made a mistake I am sure I will be told so and, I will, unlike some, heed what I am told.

    Alan, whilst if memory serves that wasn’t the exact wording I used and I disagreed with the decision to edit my comment, I respected and abided by the decision made.

    As to my wording above, it is my personal opinion that hiding behind anonymity, whilst their right, is as I depict it.

    I have no personal animosity towards Person, just as I have no personal animosity towards you. Just as I have explained the approach we take to comments to you more than once, I have also told you that multiple times. I look forward to the day you are able to retain such information…

    I am still puzzled as to why the two of you cry foul when I express my own thoughts and call for censorship but also object to anybody else being censored by me. Setting aside the obvious implications, what say you?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Your memory does not serve you, Mr. Rose. You called him a “little coward.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    I am still puzzled as to why the two of you cry foul when I express my own thoughts and call for censorship but also object to anybody else being censored by me.

    Christopher Rose (#370), I will call for censorship of your own posts that violate BC’s Official Comment Policy as long as you remain BC’s censor in chief. That’s not because I condone censorship, but because I loathe the double standard. You self-righteously censor other people but smugly engage in prohibited behavior yourself. It’s rank hypocrisy.

  • troll

    #370…so rather than exercise self-control you prefer to ‘express yourself’ and rely on your co-censor to keep you in line – understood…I’ve used that technique on occasion

    as I’ve argued before (somewhere) having a censor enables uncivil behavior

    ps…I suggested that you censor yourself for ironic effect of course

    pps…this place is no longer fit for humans with integrity anyway – only for their inner trolls

  • Glenn Contrarian

    For those who don’t like the editors at BC:

    This is THEIR blog. THEY are the moderators. THEY set the rules. THIS is THEIR turf…and if you play here, then you WILL play by their rules.

    Writers complaining about the editors here are very much like those Americans who go to foreign countries and do what is wrong, yet still assume that they’ll be treated by American rules. But every blog, every forum, every doggone site on the internet is a MONARCHY. What they guy at the top says, goes.

    So either deal with it, or go start your own banana republic. As for myself, I think I’ll stick around – this particular banana republic really ain’t that bad.

    Oh, Chris! Could you or Clavos please get me another pina colada? And please don’t include the chaser of grape Kool-Aid….

  • Richard E

    It is entertaining that Person has, by his comments, answered my question #352. BAM! One down. Who’s next? Are you experiencing a sensation of deja vu?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Alan, I just checked and according to Doc D I called them an “anonymous little coward”, so you are in fact correct.

    As to your second remark, as I have told you more than once, I don’t have a problem with having my comments edited.

    I, too, am only human and, like all people, will occasionally make mistakes, the awareness of which is one of the reasons why I added a second person into the comments management function.

    You characterise my comment editing as self-righteous, which means “a feeling of smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person”.

    As I don’t have any morals, which I associate with what I consider the corrupt dogma of monotheism, simply ethical principles and guidelines – and I don’t think of myself as superior to others but directly connected to all life, wherein we are all equal but different, I don’t consider my actions hypocritical.

    On the other hand, you routinely flout our guidelines even though you know exactly what is and isn’t acceptable. Does that mean you consider yourself above the rest of us?

    troll, I hope you have known me long enough to have noted that one thing that can infuriate me is wilful ignorance and stupidity, such as the deliberate ignoring of facts that clash with ideology.

    Sure, I have been known to have fairly intense disagreements with the excessively dogmatic, mostly over political issues, but I do try really hard to be fair and even-handed in dealing with everybody. Hopefully I get it right more often than not and there are channels open if I do get it wrong.

    I am not sure that your assertion that having a censor enables uncivil behaviour is actually correct. In the case of Blogcritics, there was definitely far worse behaviour taking place in the comments space before my appointment than there has been since. Indeed, the appalling behaviour of some commenters was the main reason that the previous regime wanted to introduce a degree of moderation in the space.

    I don’t agree either with your characterisation of this place; with one or two notable exceptions the majority of people here really behave rather well.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    I don’t agree either with your characterisation of this place; with one or two notable exceptions the majority of people here really behave rather well.

    Then what need, pray tell, for a censor? Your superior judgment in all matters, foreign and domestic, is wasted here. Blogcritics can merely ban for life the “one or two notable exceptions” and be done with you.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    I tend to think a fairer site would notify and warn you when deleting entire postings.

    Person, Chris Rose did give you such a warning earlier in this thread, whereupon you complained that he was threatening you. I guess he can’t win!

    Regarding the substance of the talmud, here is my first question:

    Cute, Person. I asked you a question, which you agreed to answer. Instead you ask more questions of your own.

    You go first, please.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Christopher Rose (#376, final ¶), I do hope that I am among your “one or two notable exceptions.” I’ve always longed to be notable.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Then what need, pray tell, for a censor?

    For the same reason societies have police forces even though the vast majority of people do not go around rapin’, lootin’ ‘n’ pillagin’.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    I’ve always longed to be notable.

    Yes, we’d noticed.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Alan, you will need to ask the site owners about that, but my first thought is that someone needs to be paying attention in order to identify who those exceptions might be.

    I can assure you though that there are people involved in Blogcritics that favour taking a far harder line than I do.

    Indeed, I would contend that I spend more time defending the comments space against those who would prefer a stricter environment than you would imagine.

    Can’t be certain of course but I’m fairly sure that, if I was replaced, there would also be a major re-think of how the comments space is handled and you might well dislike the outcome, if you were still around to comment on it…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Oh, and you’re certainly notable but, again, probably not in the way you might think…

  • Person

    Dreadful (#378), Your question was essentially “how is talmud analysis from one link different than Islam analysis from another link” and “how is talmud defense from one link different from Islam defense from another link”?

    My questions will answer precisely that, if you have the courage of patience. If you are more interested in playing word games than proceeding with substantive analysis of the talmud (and Islam), then that is your perogative.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    I’ll wait…

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Person, I’m not the slightest little bit interested in a “substantive analysis of the talmud (and Islam)” because I think monotheism is a false and corrupting ideology that does nothing except cause false divisions amongst people and get in the way of genuine spirituality.

    What I am interested in is will you answer the questions posed to you earlier, which are:-

    1) Do you support the arrest yesterday, after weeks of house arrest, of Iranian political opposition leaders Mirhossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi and their wives and their incarceration in Heshmatiyeh jail in Tehran?

    2) I’ve also asked why you choose to remain anonymous. Care to explain?

  • troll

    …so we’ve dragged our fucked-up society in miniature in here Dreadful with its domination and everything

    BC should have remained more experimental and avant-guard – who knows what might have developed…maybe a flop…maybe a better way

    your mileage may vary etc etc naturally and of course

    btw Chris…while I don’t know about Person’s lack of courage and integrity for using a false name I do know that he’s a liar

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    troll, whilst waiting to see if Person will actually answer our questions rather than interrogate us, remind me; when and how exactly was Blogcritics ever either experimental or avant garde? I’ve been around since ’04 but appear to have missed that…

    And why exactly do you consider Person a liar? At the moment your remark looks like an unsupported allegation…

  • Person

    Ok, Dreadful, as a gentleman, I will let you ask first, assuming that you will let me ask next.

    However, it is impossible, in one posting, to coherently and succinctly respond to every accusation of the talmud and Islam (and every rebuttal) from the links that you posted.

    If you would like to pose a more specific question, that includes a few quotes of talmudic analysis juxtaposed with ones from Islamic analysis, then I will gladly answer you.

  • Person

    And I will be heading off to sleep soon, Dreadful, and will respond to your response in a few hours. Hopefully, you will be gracious and courageous enough to provide a few example quotes (substance) in your question that can be coherently responded to.

  • troll

    …he voluntarily joined (and in fact suggested) a game of show me yours and I’ll show mine – but didn’t after we did…I feel so dirty and violated

    that’s liar liar pants on fire behavior on any playground

    and yes you appear to have missed the experiment that was

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    troll, so please tell me of this bold avant garde experiment.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    It’s his misapplication of the Socratic method which concerns me, troll.

    In Plato’s Dialogues, Socrates asks a series of questions, to which his disciples invariably agree. However, they are not truly questions in the sense that they have more than one possible answer: rather, they are established facts or premises which Plato uses to build his argument. (Mathematically speaking, they are analogous to “if x is true, then y”).

    Person is acting as if his questions allow of only one answer, when they clearly do not.

    Nevertheless, I’ll accede to his request and formulate (as time allows) one or two specific questions about what I raised. And we’ll see what happens.

  • Clavos

    Nevertheless, I’ll accede to his request and formulate (as time allows) one or two specific questions about what I raised. And we’ll see what happens.

    Doc, it would appear that you have way too much time on your hands if you can indulge in such a monumentally time-wasting, and ultimately fruitless, task.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Clav – it’s good practice. Like I said, we’ll see what happens…

  • cindy

    Every time I see ‘Person’, I’m reminded of Demetri Martin’s fun show–‘Person’. This Person is nothing like that.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’m glad nobody actually tried to analyze the Talmud. The only person who might be able to do a creditable job is “troll”….

    But so long as you just talk about it without actually trying, it’s okay…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Wow! Almost 400 comments overt a couple of Persian dinghies going through Suez! You would think they were warships or something – except that nobody has bothered to discuss that point….

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    Person is acting as if his questions allow of only one answer, when they clearly do not.

    Neither did Plato. I read perhaps the first fourth of the book and fairly disgusted in that Plato was not truly allowing for argument when there was clearly room for such. I was not impressed.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy #398 –

    That depends on who’s facing those frigates. Somali pirates would be intimidated by them, I’m sure….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m not certain that Dreadful is right about the Socratic method. They all were leading questions. Socrates always had a stake in certain types of answers. He wasn’t interested in mere exercise of logic or rhetoric (in which the sophists excelled).

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Maybe so, Rog. Perhaps Person is being Socratic after all. After all, Plato has Socrates ask questions like, “People living under a tyrant aren’t free, right?”

    It invites the desired answer, but the premise of the question is not necessarily sound – especially when you bear in mind that the word tyrant in Socrates’ time did not have the unambiguously negative connotations it does today.

    That said, I’d like to ask Person – in a decidedly non-Socratic way – what makes a misrepresentation like Revisionist History‘s “according to the Talmud, Jews may with impunity rob and kill gentiles” any less egregious than a misrepresentation like Prophet of Doom‘s charge that Jews are apes in the eyes of Allah?

    And what makes Faithweb’s debunking of the above claim about the Talmud any less sound than a competent refutation of the “Allah says Jews are apes” accusation, for example this one?

  • troll

    Ruvy #397 from what I see it isn’t clear that Person is competent to discuss the Hadith or the Sunna itself let alone the Talmud

    I asked him how his antisemitism harmonizes with the beauty of logic and the word – ie where in the descriptions of the Prophet’s behavior and in that behavior itself does he find justification for his sniveling antisemitism

    by ignoring this he showed himself to be a political tool lacking the depth of conviction necessary to discuss religious issues

    perhaps he’ll redeem himself…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t making that kind of analogy, only tried to keep the record straight: Socrates is reputedly the father of moral philosophy.

  • troll

    troll, so please tell me of this bold avant garde experiment.

    …you mean besides all the free fish?

  • Person

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Troll, your questions will be answered in time, do not worry. And, by the way, I am not now nor have I ever been a racist. I have many Jewish friends and we often go gefilte fishing. And since you are so fond of Judaism, may I also join you as a brother in faith?

    ———-

    Roger, your true colors are slowly being revealed and I will also answer you in time. For now, feel free to reflect here.

    ———-

    Dreadful,

    First, let us clarify for all that the talmud, not the Old Testament (or Torah), is the highest source of guidance in Judaism. We are fortunate to have so many Jewish readers here who, beyond being stunned, have not denied this. In hiding the role of the talmud, they have misrepresented and overstated “Judeo-Christian” links to the Christians.

    Your response included the following statement:

    misrepresentation like Revisionist History’s ‘according to the Talmud, Jews may with impunity rob and kill gentiles’…”

    I failed to see how you came to the conclusion that this was a misrepresentation. Beyond their conduct in Occupied Palestine, these statements from the talmud, seem to reinforce the racist theme in Judaism:

    - Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

    – Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile (“Cuthean”), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

    – Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

    – Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has “exposed their money to Israel.”

    How have the quote you mentioned and the related ones been misrepresented?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Look, buddy, I said what I had to say. Other than that, we really don’t have anything to discuss. Peace!

  • troll

    …may I also join you as a brother in faith?

    we can discuss that after you’ve answered my question(s)

  • Person

    Roger, ok buddy, that is fine. However, your recent postings in this thread (which are in contrast to your earlier ones) will be answered, rest assured, including parallels between Ruvy and yourself. :)

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Re # 406: “I have many Jewish friends and we often go gefilte fishing”.

    Is that what passes for a joke in Iran or California?

    Gefilte fish – “are poached fish patties or fish balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, mostly carp or pike. They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community.”

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    As to parallels, I see far more between Person and Ruvy than anybody else, but I think Person will keep ignoring everything they are reluctant to discuss, just as they have since joining this discussion. I am reminded of Gaddafi…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    We are fortunate to have so many Jewish readers here who, beyond being stunned, have not denied this. In hiding the role of the Talmud, they have misrepresented and overstated “Judeo-Christian” links to the Christians…

    From what I have see of this comment thread I AM THE ONLY JEW COMMENTING ON IT. Out of over 400 comments, I am the only Jew – period. Where this “person” sees this crowd of Jews is of interest to me, as I’d like to know them. It strikes me though, that he is just lying through his teeth. I certainly have asserted no ties between Judaism and Christianity here. I dare this Persian liar to find a comment asserting one.

    There is a reason that we Jews are forbidden to teach the Talmud to non-Jews and we see why in the Jew-hating links and trash that “person” posts. Our sages warned – correctly so – that non-Jews would use what is in the Talmud against us. And we see above precisely that.

    So what is the Torah? What is the Tana”kh? What is the Talmud?

    The Torah is the first five books of the entire Hebrew Bible, know in Hebrew as Tana”kh – a acronym for torá, nevi’ím, k’tuvím – Guide, Prophecy and Writings.

    But the Torah, detailed as it is, leaves out many instructions. These instructions were the instructions that Moses gave his brother Aaron for the proper worship of G-d, and for the proper ministering to the Hebrew people. This is referred to as the Oral Law, as it was passed down father to son amongst the Levites and the Priests of our people.

    When the Temple of Hórdos was destroyed by the Romans the remaining members of the Sanhedrin, the highest court of the country and a kind of “government in internal exile”, fled to Yavne and began deliberating on how to keep their nation alive, and they began to reduce the written instructions of Moses to Aaron to writing in the form of a detailed examination of the Torah. This compilation became known as the Mishná, which evolved into the Talmud Yerushalmi. This continued for over a century and a half in various parts of Israel, with the members of the Sanhedrin appointing replacements as the original scholars died. The Talmud Yerushalmi is in the form of discussions, of various questions of law, with the students of the scholars making quick notes in Aramaic or Hebrew on the conversations. This is what you are looking at when you look at the text of the Talmud Yerushalmi.

    Eventually, word came to them that the Romans were going to kill them off, and they prepared to flee east, out of Roman jurisdiction. Not all of them made it, but those who did re-constituted themselves in Babylonia, then part of the Parthian Empire. They started over again on the redaction of Moses’ instructions to his brother, using the same method as was used with the Talmud Yerushalmi, but they did it all in more detail, and not being obstructed by Roman savages, were able to redact it more effectively. In addition, the Talmud Bavli, as it became known, dealt with issues of survival in exile. Since by 400 C.E. the majority of Jews were in exile, this work became very important as a survival manual.

    This is why it has been studied so intensely, over and above the works of Prophecy and Writings in the Hebrew Bible..

    Since we have returned home to Israel, it is my opinion that Jews need to focus on the Tana”kh, the Miahná an the Talmud Yerushalmi (to understand Moses’ instructions to hos brother), and to leave the Talmud Bavli as a secondary source to be referred to as needed. In this opinion, I am not joined by many. But as events transpire and the importance of the Tana”kh – particularly Prophecy – becomes more important, this will change.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As for the actual citations from “person” a few comments above, they are all taken out of context.

    The context is a discussion of some point in law, and since they are not actual cases in front of the scholars, the discussions get to be rather wide ranging – and often wander far from the original topic – like this comment thread does. And the scholars made comments and every comment was valued and copied as faithfully as could be by his students.

    Sometimes the comments are long and encyclopedic and, as you will notice, the statements pulled out by “person” (actually cited from his source) are all one line or so. So, it is reasonable to assume that they are cherry picked out of far longer dissertations. And from what little I have seen of Jews picking out comments from the Mishná or one of the Talmuds to prove a point, the dissertations are often long and difficult to understand.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    When I learned as a schoolboy in 1950s Pennsylvania about the Holocaust, I vowed to myself that if ever I encountered a situation where Jews were being rounded up, I would identify myself as Jew. If every Christian were to do that, I thought, it would overwhelm the anti-Semites. And even if it didn’t, at least I’d be making the right moral choice.

    Thankfully, I’ve never encountered any such situation, so my childhood vow has not been put to the test. But still I do my best, which I why I responded earlier in this thread to Person’s denigration of Zionists by asserting that I am proud to be a Zionist.

    Perhaps Ruvy and other observant Jews are offended by this stance. I hope not. But if in my lifetime the Iranians lead their Muslim brothers in establishing a worldwide Islamic Republic, I will raise my hand and step across their line in the sand. For that moment in time, just to spite the haters, I will speak from my heart and say, “I am a Jew.”

  • Clavos

    Well said, Alan.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Alan, I am not offended at all. On the contrary – your attitude is one of courage, and the good things that understanding history’s lessons CAN lead to.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Still doesn’t account for the Talmudic one-liners as per “person’s” source (and Ruvy’s explanation to the effect they’ll all taken out of context wears awfully thin). Granted, these were writings of a very primitive and superstitious people, and that’s a form of excuse. But to venerate those writings to the level of a sacred tradition – that’s what I find perverse and it tells about the Jewish mindset in that it’d rather bathe in its own excrement than in the finest perfumes of others.

    [Edited]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    What Alan said.

  • Clavos

    and Ruvy’s explanation to the effect they’ll all taken out of context wears awfully thin

    I don’t agree, although I will admit that I’ve never even seen a copy of the Talmud, much less read it, but on the basis of Person’s already demonstrated behavior on this thread plus the fact that, just by virtue of their being so short, the quotes look like they are taken out of context, I accept Ruvy’s point.

  • Clavos

    BTW, in the conflict between Islamic extremists and Israel, I am 100% with Israel. It has not escaped my notice that no Jew ever flew an airplane into the World Trade Center.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Person, as I rather expected you mightn’t, you didn’t answer my questions. I’m not interested in getting into a theological debate over what may or may not be the highest source of legal authority in Judaism. My inquiry is why slander against Jews should be any more valid than slander against any other religion or the followers thereof.

    Ruvy is absolutely spot on with regard to Revisionist History‘s cherry-picking. You can choose just about any single line from the Talmud, the Bible, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita or other holy book, and without any context than what you yourself provide you can make it say whatever you want to.

    I did actually take a look at an online searchable translation of the Talmud, and was able to confirm to my own satisfaction that your quotes are either taken out of context, or don’t exist at all in the form you claim they do.

    Without a theological background, just attempting to read the Talmud is liable to give one a headache, since, as Ruvy says, it basically consists of transcriptions of a bunch of senior rabbis brainstorming.

    I did, however, provide a link to the Real Truth About the Talmud website which discusses and refutes Revisionist History‘s charges. You have so far ignored it.

    I provided a link to a site which makes similarly negative claims about the Quran. You have so far ignored it.

    I provided a link to a site which refutes some of the claims about the Quran. This you have also so far ignored.

    I simply want to know why we should give your claims special treatment. That question has become even more germane now since you appear to want to focus on them to the exclusion of everything else.

  • Person

    Clavos, [Edited] No Shia Muslims have ever committed terrorism in the USA and never will. You use the actions of our enemies, the Sunni extremists, to discredit Shia.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Gefilte fish – “are poached fish patties or fish balls made from a mixture of ground deboned fish, mostly carp or pike. They are popular in the Ashkenazi Jewish community.”

    They’re also absolutely revolting. Admittedly, the one time I tried them was at a deli in Cheam, which probably isn’t one of the major world centres of Jewish cuisine.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Still doesn’t account for the Talmudic one-liners as per “person’s” source (and Ruvy’s explanation to the effect they’ll all taken out of context wears awfully thin). Granted, these were writings of a very primitive and superstitious people, and that’s a form of excuse. But to venerate those writings to the level of a sacred tradition – that’s what I find perverse and it tells about the Jewish mindset in that it’d rather bathe in its own excrement than in the finest perfumes of others.

    [Edited]

    Primitive and superstitious people, Roger? When your ancestors will still braining girls and sacrificing people to idols, mine were trying to propagate a humane code of law and spread the word of G-d.

    I don’t “account for” the Talmud to you, or justify it or seek to excuse it. You do not rate that effort. Neither does the “person” who posted the cherry picked quotes. I explained why in a comment earlier, but the additional reason is that I do not justify concepts I do not ask you to follow to YOU. When you learn how to follow the Seven Laws of Noah, and when you show MY people the respect we have earned over the millennia, you might be entitled to an answer. I will not hold my breath waiting for that day, though.

    I don’t agree with Alan or Glenn or troll or Stan Dunham, or clavos, and they do not agree with me on a lot of things, but they do show that respect. And it is appreciated.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    #417 was meant to be provocative. Both persons’ behavior online leave a lot to be desired. “Person’s” anti-Zionist fervor is no different than Ruvy’s fervor against the enemies of Israel. I don’t know how to gauge degrees of fanaticism, it’s all the same to me. Ruvy talks of nuking Tehran and part of Tel Aviv.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I don’t agree with Alan or Glenn or troll or Stan Dunham, or clavos, and they do not agree with me on a lot of things, but they do show that respect. And it is appreciated.

    Based on his comments above, I’ll add DD to that lot.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    “Primitive and superstitious people, Roger? When your ancestors will still braining girls and sacrificing people to idols, mine were trying to propagate a humane code of law and spread the word of G-d.”

    Yes, and you are the product of your ancestors, the paragon of humaneness.

  • Person

    And Roger, if you would like to address me directly regarding why you keep accusing me of being like Ruvy, I will answer you. I, for one, have never spoken of nuking or killing anyone. But thank you for implying that all people from Middle East are crazy while Westerners are so logical and can teach us so many things. Reflect on that–good night.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Tell me this, Dreadful, why is Christ such an anathema to the Jew? Parts of Isiah II referring to the suffering servant and Christ’s messianic role are strictly verboten reading.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Just against any kind of fanaticism, “Person,” regardless of the source. I’m no less anti-Western than you are, but you have virtually indicted everyone on this site in your anti-Zionist fervor. I suppose I can understand deep hatred against the oppressor, but hatred is not God’s way. Love is.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Person –

    To me, you and Ruvy are both alike in that you are trying to stay true to your religion…and there’s nothing wrong with that. What is very, very wrong is your support for Holocaust denial…and that wrecks your credibility beyond repair.

    If the Holocaust were all a Big Lie, then every single Jew who lost a close relative in the Holocaust (which includes almost all Jews alive today) would be a liar. The Germans who remembered and wrote about their part in the Holocaust were all liars, too. AND the American soldiers who were horrified by what they found were all liars, too.

    AND the Jews and the Nazis and the Americans would have had to ALL get together even before Hitler died (!) and be in total agreement in order to get their collective stories straight so they could fool all later generations.

    So…no, Person. So long as you deny the Holocaust, your credibility is zero with me.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Parts of Isiah II referring to the suffering servant and Christ’s messianic role are strictly verboten reading.

    Do you have a source for that statement, Rog?

    As I understand it, Christians believe that the prophecies in Isaiah refer to Christ. Jews believe that it does not. Simple as that.

    So the claim that Jewish authorities are afraid of letting the faithful read it makes no sense. It would be as if no-one was allowed to read the company’s quarterly report because Jimmy in Accounting interpreted it as meaning that he was going to be fired.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Except that this was the prevalent opinion among the biblical scholars at the seminary – and yes, it was a very liberal bunch during the Church wars. My understanding is that the Jewish interpretation is so stretched that those parts, including Isiah 60, are simply relegated to silence lest they disturb “the faithful.”

    Perhaps Ruvy can enlighten us as to the actual practice.

  • Person

    Dear Roger

    I think that it is unfair to label me as anything but a soft-spoken, dispassionate, teddy-bear. And, to your point, what America (and England) thinks or does is becoming increasingly irrelevant in the world today and the comical biases, denials, and name-calling exhibited here are a reflection of that fact. Until it accepts this, America misses out on valuable opportunities for better relations with new, key players, like the Islamic Republic of Iran, who genuinely want to be America’s friend and equal ally.

    I believe this movie, made in Iran, demonstrates how to build on commonalities, as opposed to disagreements.

    They are free to spend another 400 posts trying to react to my simple truths. :) Peace and love to all.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    I’m in total agreement with the spirit of your post. Let’s see now whether both of us can live up to these expectations, and it should start on this very thread.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My understanding is that the Jewish interpretation is so stretched that those parts, including Isiah 60, are simply relegated to silence lest they disturb “the faithful.”

    Your understanding, as usual, is wrong.

    Roger, relying on Catholic seminarians for anything on Judaism is like relying on a Persian propagandist for the truth about anything.

    There are two parts of the Hebrew Bible that are more or less off limits, in one way or another. The first is Ezekiel, Cap. 1. The reason is that this depicts Ezekiel in the presence of G-d. The second is the Song of Songs – which was “retranslated” by Maimonides (I think) because the original Hebrew seemed too pornographic. Everything else is very much an open book. I don’t buy either of these “closures” or attempts to censor thought, but the “orthodox” sheeple in Judaism do.

    Christianity is anathema for us because it is a religion built on idolatry, human sacrifice, cannibalism, lies, and a basic lack of class.

    The idolatry comes from alleging that G-d had a son made human. That’s just plain idolatry. Creating three gods out of One, like there was a fire sale on gods, is also idolatry. And all the bullshit Christians utter to justify this is defense of idolatry.

    The human sacrifice comes from celebrating and worshiping the crucifixion of one Jew over the hundreds of thousands of others the Roman savages – and yes they were nothing more than savages (even the Parthians were more civilized) – crucified and otherwise murdered in the Roman campaign of genocide against us.

    The cannibalism comes from the idea of gobbling up your god 3 times a day, like oatmeal. Even if it is merely symbolic, it is still cannibalism.

    The lies come from the fact that THERE WAS NO SALVATION FOR HUMANITY 2,000 YEARS AGO! Mankind has murdered his brothers off in a worse and worse fashion continuously for the last 2,000 years. The study of human history over this period of time, like in all times previous, has been a study in the history of massacre, murder, rape, plunder and brutal exploitation.

    Finally, the lack of class. No self respecting Jew falls down on the ground and worships his cousin – even if he is 60 generations removed.

    I hope that clarifies things for you a bit. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Clavos

    The cannibalism comes from the idea of gobbling up your god 3 times a day, like oatmeal. Even if it is merely symbolic, it is still cannibalism.

    Only if you perceive god to be human, which most christian sects don’t.

    A bit of a stretch, Ruvy.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    My understanding is that the Jewish interpretation is so stretched

    Roger, the Jews wrote the damn thing. Any interpetation but theirs is a stretch by definition.

    Or is Shakespeare’s interpretation of Hamlet “stretched”, too?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/an roger nowosielski

    Not a convincing argument, Dreadful. And the Shakespeare analogy doesn’t wash. We don’t have Shakespeare around to tell us what he meant; neither do we have Isaiah.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Exactly, Rog…

  • Person

    I agree with Dreadful. Without the author present, we cannot understand the meaning of the text of the talmud, such as when it says “even the best of the gentiles (non-Jews) must be killed”.

    The link to the movie from above was banned, because it was too revealing. Here is another try.

    Peace and love to all.

  • http://www.carminasaturaqueamericana.com Irvin F Cohen

    Dear person,

    What if Mary was a rather clever and adroit ventriloquist?

    Or to paraphrase Lincoln, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time – only just most of the time.

  • Person

    Dear Mr. Cohen,

    If you want to think negatively about the Blessed Saint Mary (peace be upon her), then that is your loss. My message was to demonstrate a starting point and agreement between what most Americans believe and what Iran believes.

    Peace be with you.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Brother Person
    I enjoyed watching the link, as you correctly poined to the fact that Islam and Christianity have very close commonalities and its root goes back to real teaching of profit Moses and the God’s first written direction to people which is Ten Commandments, even though the jews were always defiant and rebelious agaist the God. I am not expert in judism. but I did study the Bible and the teaching of Jesus and like to share with you some of my findings. Contrary to Jewish beleif, Jesus was the promised one. According to Quran he was the son of Vergin Mary, and not the son of God. However God said in Quran that,, WE SUPPORTED HIM WITH HOLY SPRITE,, and in Christanity it is called holy ghost, ie, when jesus died he gave the holy ghost. It is my opinion that Jesus was the secound Adam, the one who never sin. According to Chiristianity ((and I beleive it is correctly stated)) the wage of sin is death, and on that logic Jesus could not die, because he never sin. so Jesus is alive even today and God in Holy Quran stated that fact ((we took Juses to ourselve). And based of my study of Islam and Christianity and the question of who was Jesus and why he was here and why after him God send profit Mohamed to mankind. I came to this conclusion:

    A- Jesus was son of vergin Mary and secound creation, by the well of God.

    B- Jesus was secound Adam and obyed the God and never sin.

    C- Jesus introduce to mankind the ultimate way of acheaving the humanity and speritual perfectionasim. That was the reason he said I am the way.

    D- He was supported by the Holy Sprite. What is the holy sprite is a million dollars question???

    E-Jesus never died for our sin. Because he did not sin (( opposed to Adam who sin and died )) and he can not die.

    F.-At the time of Jusus and thereafter the mankind confused about the way they have to act and what law to follow. ie-when he was on earth a woman committed adultery, and according to Jewish law she should be stoned
    to death. However Jesus said no, and his follower aske him why not, you told us the God gave us these laws and we have to oby the law. But he said all right let who did not sin throw the first stone. other example such as love your enemy, and if your enemy hit you on one side of your face, then offer the other side to him. Those example shows the possibility that mankind one day will acheave such state of mind and perfection. and almost for five hundred years and so man was confused what he has to follow and mankind was not ready or wise enough to understand the Juses way of life.

    E- And then God send profit Mohamed and the
    holy Quran and the final order. And told Mohamed that this is my final order and a book of quidance for mankind to follow.

    NOTICE: To all who follow my input, always remember the law of God never chane and it is the man who tries to interpert the God Law for his own mischiefs.

    God bless all

  • Person

    Dear Roger (and others),

    I want to apologize for what I wrote in this thread for a) implying that Iran was more fair than the US and b) my attacks on the Talmud and the Holocaust.

    The ideas I presented on the Talmud and other improper statements (especially on the support for Holocaust denial) were based on my being brainwashed by various propaganda that was obvious to all but myself. No one has the right to question or criticize others’ beliefs and I am ashamed of what I wrote.

    For the past several weeks I was sensing that something was wrong with what I had been believing and I needed to come online to vocalize those ideas and and speak with others about them–to ultimately confirm or reject them.

    Believe it or not, this conversation was a changing moment for me and after you said “the way of God is love”, I actually had a dream that Jesus was calling out for me to become a Christian. I know that, as an ex-Muslim, I may be persecuted for converting (especially by the current Iranian regime), but my heart tells me to do so. My family members, including some Christians, are also supportive of this change, especially after seeing the negative and cynical person I had become.

    I hope that you and others, and above all God, will forgive me for my critical tone an manner and I would like to thank you all for helping me come out of my negative and unclassy mentality. I am sure I will have a long road ahead to fully understand this new path but it is one that I believe will be filled with happiness and hope, as opposed to negative emotions.

    Regards,

    Person

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Life is ever full of surprises….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I know that, as an ex-Muslim, I may be persecuted for converting (especially by the current Iranian regime), but my heart tells me to do so. My family members, including some Christians, are also supportive of this change, especially after seeing the negative and cynical person I had become.

    What ever my opinions of Christianity are are irrelevant at this juncture. The decision by the commenter above represents a difficult decision in a less than tolerant society. He will be moving from the accepted majority in Persia to a persecuted minority – and that may be hard – more than hard, possibly fatal.

    So, I wish him luck on this path. He will need it.

  • Person

    Thank you Ruvy. Let me also apologize to you in that your country does have a right to exist and hopefully there will be peace in our neighborhood. Best wishes for you.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Just in case anyone else is curious, I’d just like to confirm that these recent remarks from Person are coming from the same IP address as their earlier remarks.

    Christopher Rose
    Blogcritics Comments Editor

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    On a personal note, although I welcome their more tolerant attitude, it seems odd that Person has swapped one strand of the monotheism theory for another rather than simply giving up on such a facetious notion and embracing humanity more directly.

    Still, one step at a time, eh?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    So BC [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] has confirmed that “these recent remarks from Person [#445] are coming from the same IP address as their earlier remarks.” What we must ask ourselves, however [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] is how sincere is #445. Are we to take it at face value? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    But what makes Person’s latest absurdity any more believable than his countless other hateful posts? Person is toying with us! Running ridiculous little mind games such as teenagers are wont to do on the Internet. We should not be fooled for a minute. Person is a prankster, not merely pulling our legs but twisting them into Möbius pretzels as sketched by M.C. Escher.

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Hi every body, Person did not write the comments #445 and 448, who ever write the comment at least fooled some of you , specially ALLEN, is realy fooled, what some say is true, YOU CAN FOOL SOME PEOPLE SOME TIME BUT NOT ALL PEOPLE ALL THE TIME.

    HAY RAVY, DID YOU CONVERTED PERSON TO CHIRISTIANITY IN HIS ABSENSE, BUT MY QUESTION IS WHY NOT CONVERTED HIM TO JUDISEM
    AFTER ALL I THOUGHT JEWS DO NOT BELEIVE IN JESUS, HOWEVER ZIONIST JEW DO. AND THEY CALLED THEMSELVE JESUS FOR JEWS.

    best regards

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Reza Tavakolian (#452), you’re right. I was really fooled. Especially when I wrote, “The decision by the commenter above represents a difficult decision in a less than tolerant society. He will be moving from the accepted majority in Persia to a persecuted minority – and that may be hard – more than hard, possibly fatal.”

    Oh, no, wait! That wasn’t me; it was Ruvy. I was fooled when I wrote, “I welcome their more tolerant attitude … one step at a time, eh?”

    Oh, no, wait! That wasn’t me; it was Christopher Rose.

    Hmmm, so where was I was fooled? Maybe when I wrote, “What we must ask ourselves … is how sincere is #445. Are we to take it at face value? … Person is toying with us! … We should not be fooled for a minute. Person is a prankster.”

    Yeah, that must’ve been it.

  • Richard E

    And so in 450 comments, on a thread attached to an inconsequential piece about two Iranian ships easygoing through the Suez Canal, BC commentators have managed to capsulate the myriad problems confronting humanity since the beginning of time.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Damn, we’re good!

  • Person

    Dear Brother Reza,

    I am the author of #445 and #448 and I know that it may have come as a surprise to you. To be honest, I was thinking about becoming Christian for some time and, like a lightbulb that becomes its brightest before it burns out, I needed to express my old, negative way of thinking before being able to reject it.

    I am not as experienced and wise as you are and was less able to balance conflicting concepts. For instance, you were more easily able to admit that “America is the best country on earth” while at the same time be critical of some of its policies. In doing so, you are doing a service for America and all people. For me, I was too negative and cynical, which, as Roger pointed out, was not the best way to go about things. That, for me, was a wake up call that I had been needing.

    I still hold you in the highest respect, especially for how you are able to be a successful entrepreneur and better the lives of all those around you, without regard to race or religion. For me, I feel that I am better able to reach success, happiness, and spirituality through becoming Christian (as are some people in my family). I hope that you will understand and respect my decision and still consider me a brother in humanity under God, as I do you.

    Dear Alan,

    I understand your feelings, especially considering how bitter a number of our exchanges were–and I am sorry that those exchanges were bitter. I hold no resentment to you and I hope that one day you will feel the same about me. To be honest, I feel that a huge weight has been lifted from my chest and I look forward to living life with a more positive and cooperative spirit. I hope that your long-standing conflicts with other members and staff here will be resolved and you will reach your goals. I have read a number of your articles and I, for one, would be happy to see more as soon as possible.

    Regards,

    Person

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    My initial reaction to the latest twist in this crude charade was that it’s a harmless prank. Yet on second thought, those of us who associate Muslims, Iranians, Persians–whatever you want to call them–with the abuses of fundamentalist extremism may find it hard to accept that such “persons” have a sense of mischief.

    Another, more pragmatic take is that we are victims of what is known in tradecraft as black propaganda. As I wrote yesterday on another BC thread (#36), “We’re witnessing the beginnings on the Internet of a much more sophisticated approach to spreading disinformation, not just by groups but by individuals. Beware the unlinked pseudonym.”

    Beware indeed. What better way to distract attention from the issues that ought to be concerning us, such as the Congressional hearing on the radicalization of American Muslims to be convened on Thursday, March 10, by Rep. Peter King (R-NY), chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. We should stop letting Person and his crony Reza Tavakolian sidetrack us with their adolescent antics. Let’s keep our eye on the ball. Remain alert against the Islamist threat, which is a clear and present danger to America and to the free world.

  • Person

    Alan,

    I think fundamentalism and radicalism are wrong in all shapes and sizes, including racial profiling such as “Muslims, Iranians, Persians–whatever you want to call them”. Your statement implies that all people from the Middle East are evil.

    Hopefully you will find peace in your heart.

    Person

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Hi Alan

    Person is toying with us!….we should not be fooled for a minute.. person is a prankster.

    PERSON DID NOT WRITE #445,448 AND 456. BUT YWHOEVER DID WRITE IS PRANKSTER.

    You fooled because you accepted that the author of the comment #445 and 448 is Person. Did you consider the possibility that someone playing aroung ????

    On the other hand, it is possible that you saying these thing so everybody accept that Person write the comment # 445, 448,and 456

    BUT NO MATTER WHAT, ONLY A FOOL PRETEND TO BE A CHRISTIAN, AFTER READING THE HOLY QURAN AND GOD’S FINAL ORDER. AND REMEMBER JESUS DID NOT HAVE A BOOK AND LAW OF GOD FOR MAN TO FOLLOW, JESUS WAS A NEW ADAM, A SHINING STAR AND ULTIMATE POSSIBILITY THAT MAN MAY ONE DAY BE ABLE TO REACH. AND I CALL IT THE MAN ULTIMATE DISTINY. HOWEVER IT IS NOT IN OUR LIFE TIME OR IN FORESEEABLE FUTURE. AND IF YOU THINK YOU ARE A REAL CHRISTIAN THEN TRY TO WALK OVER THE WATER.

    And to Richard E. Coment #454, this thread is not about two Iranian warship going through Sues Canal, rather it is about the new begining, the rise of new star, the rise of PERSIAN EMPIRE. AN ISLAMIC EMPIRE BASED ON EQUALITY, FREEDOM, JUSTICE, AND ADVANCEMENT FOR ALL IRANIAN UNDER THE LAW OF GOD, ((THE HOLY QURAN)).

    God bless all

  • Person

    Brother Reza,

    I respect your views and have a lot of respect for you. However, “Person” did write all of those comments. Christopher Rose confirmed the IP address and no other “Person” arrived to deny them.

    I know that I may be a fool in your eyes, but please try to understand and respect my decision. I will take your words into consideration as I understand what you are saying. One day, we may meet and debate and discuss the issue, but for now, I would appreciate it if my decision would be respected so that I may explore this new path.

    May God keep you,

    Person

  • Reza Tavakolian

    Hi Alan
    Now you are showing your real color, you are nothing but a fool zionist (( JESUS FOR JEWS )), AND AFTER YOUR LAST COMMENT, YOU LOST ALL YOUR CREDIBILITY AND I TRASHED OUT ALL YOUR COMMENTS AND I WILL NO LONGER RESPOND TO YOUR COMMENT, SINCE REPLYING TO A FOOL IS A FOOLISH ACT. BUT TO THOSE WHO FOLLOW MY COMMENT, I REPEAT MY COMMENT IN PRESS TV, ON March 7, 2011, on the following subject U.S. MUSLEM LAWMAKER TO TESTEFY ON THE HILL.

    Fear of Islam and Muslem population is not a new phonomana. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West in general and United States in particular. The main conspirator is the Evengelican christian Church, which act as Zionist arms in promoting the ISLAMOPHOBIA. And they also cooperating with the ruler of the Saudi Arabia who closely work with Ziomist. The 9-11 event orchistrated by this unholy alliance to discredit Islam and muslem in the west.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I’m getting confused; originally Reza was calm and Person aggressive but now it is the other way round.

    As Marvin Gaye so memorably sang, what’s going on?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Life is ever full of surprises, Chris. Try using that vaunted sense of “awe” you claim to have, and you won’t get so confused….

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Thanks for that “advice”, Ruvy. Now if only it actually made any sense or helped in any way at all…

  • Clavos

    They’re doing a good cop — bad cop routine with a new twist.

    Keep your cynicism at the fore, and it’s interesting to watch — nothing more.

  • Richard E

    Person is a phony and Reza is the coconspirator, banded together to achieve some harmless mischief on BC. And Reza, the idea of a new beginning for a Persian Empire is pure fantasy, at least in the way you describe it. Iran will indeed have a new beginning. It will happen soon in a violent and bloody uprising by its own deprived people, tired of being denied basic freedoms and human dignity by the ruthless mullahs and revolutionary guards. The uprising will be more violent and bloody than in Libya, because the mullahs will slaughter their own people, as they did in the 2009 uprising, in order to maintain their hold on power. In the end, the mullahs will be ousted. It is inevitable.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Let’s hope that you are right, Richard, at least in the sense that the Persian people can kick out the mullahs. But, Reza is right in that at present there is a new Persian Empire. It doesn’t look that way. Nobody sits in Tehran wearing imperial purple with sycophants on their faces bowing to the ground. But there is very much an effective régime that can and has already gone to war against Israel.

    That is why I recommend Israel nuking Tehran and Qom if necessary. I don’t like the idea. But I do not see a reasonable alternative OTHER than the Persians kicking out the mullahs.

  • Person

    Ruvy, I think it makes sense for cool heads to prevail to prevent needless violence on both sides. From my conversations with Jewish people, most feel the same way.

    May you achieve peace.

  • Richard E

    Ruvy, I agree that Israel must do what is necessary to protect itself from destruction by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Some Iranians, like some in Russia, yearn for those days long past when their country was a great power. Ahmadinejad believes acquiring nukes and threatening Israel will enhance his standing among the Iranian people, and among the Arabs in the Middle East. But he is wrong on both counts. Trouble is brewing in Iran because the people want to take back their country from the mullahs, and they prefer to do it peacefully. They don’t want to have a Libyan scenario in Iran. But the mullahs will never relinquish power willingly, so the idea of a peacful change in power has proven to be ineffective. My central point is that the power of dictatorships comes from the willing obedience of the people they govern – and that if the people can develop techniques of withholding their consent, a regime will crumble. With the slightest breeze a fire will ignite that envelopes Iran into a bloody revolution driven by poverty and the fierce oppression of critics by its Islamic rulers. As to what will spark that fire and when, it is difficult to predict. But I believe you can agree that it won’t be long in coming.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Hear, hear, Richard. As Reuters reports today, exiled Iranian lawyer Shirin Ebadi, 2003 winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, is predicting “an Arab-style popular revolt will come soon to her country, driven by poverty and the fierce oppression of critics by its Islamic rulers.” This comes just a day after state security forces, says Reuters, “fired teargas in Tehran to disperse antigovernment protesters, and the two major reformist opposition leaders–Mirhossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi–disappeared.”

    Ms. Ebadi urges restraint on both sides. “We are trying to ensure that whatever happens in Iran, it is without bloodshed. We don’t want Iran to turn into another Libya.”

    That may be wishful thinking. The thuggish, tyrannical Iranian regime does not hesitate to use violence against its own people to suppress and “disappear” dissidents. A Libyan-style revolution may be required to get rid of Supreme Leader Khamenei, President Ahmadinejad, and their fanatical fundamentalist followers.

  • Person

    I cannot help but sense a xenophobic and anti-Middle Eastern sentiment here.

    Brother Reza, this may not be the appropriate place to seek real discussion and a “melding of the minds.”

    I would hope that Alan and Richard would engage Reza to come to a common understanding through civil dialog, which I am sure Shirin Ebadi would support.

    I for one, think some political issues are intractable and would instead, want to focus on respect and love of all mankind as opposed to a constant focus on differences.

  • Richard E

    There is no inference of an “anti=Middle Eastern” slant when discussing basic human values and rights. We’re not making stuff up here. The power of government comes from the willing obedience of the people they govern. If the people withhold their consent and obedience, the government’s power will crumble. What the world is witnessing in Iran, as well as many other countries today, is the widespread withholding of consent and obedience by the people. If anything, we are expressing support of the people of the Middle East in their struggle to live a different and hopefully better life.

  • troll

    …so extrapolating to the USA:

    if ‘the people’ withholds its consent by not voting and its obedience through a general tax strike then this tower of babbling cronyism will crumble?

    sounds easy

  • Richard E

    Anyone watching the people trying to overthrow Gaddafi in Libya right now would ever say it “sounds easy.” The operative word being “the people.” A few thousand anarchists can’t effect change by refusing to pay taxes and/or not voting. But if the overwhelming majority of the people are passionate about change, you can bet there will be change.

  • troll

    for once we agree Richard

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Amen and hallelujah.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Had the Israeli air-force gone in and done something 6 years ago to prevent the acquisition of nukes by the Islamic Republic and strongly attacked HizbAllah – again 6 years ago – then we would not be facing what we face today with “cool heads needing to prevail”, etc. But 6 years ago now, the Israeli gov’t. was too busy trying to figure out how to kick Jews from their homes in Gush Qatif. A far less extreme situation would prevail now. But there is no use crying over spilled teHina.

    We face what we face, and we must do what we must do because of the stupidity and the cowardice of our leaders 6 years ago.

    We will not see peace with Persia until the régime in power is kicked out there – and very possibly the régime in power is kicked out here.

  • Person

    Maybe so, but I hope that one day soon, friendship prevails over animosity, which is certainly the way God intended things. May you find peace and happiness as well. I, myself, am looking forward to my first church service in a few days with friends and family. Best wishes to everyone and hopefully the negativity expressed by many here will be replaced with good emotions and contentment.

  • kave

    Person _ 1)do you live in usa or iran 2) instead of accusing thoes who question molas in iran try to understand the question first 3) sorry to say that i have not seen one intellecual ( educated is not =intellecual) person who supports mola’s regim in iran regarding their inhumane acts specially the one that are realated to human right and freedoom of speech.