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Intentional Intimidation by Gay Activists

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Recently I posted a real life incident that happened to me as my car was vandalized by an apparent "heterosexual hater" of traditional marriage.  And it was obvious to me that the culprit was part of the gay activist crowd because of the rainbow sticker plastered over my pro-family bumper sticker.

I raised the question if the tables had been turned and I plastered a Christian or pro-traditional marriage bumper sticker over their rainbow would it be considered a hate crime.  Read the story here.

Today I would like to share with you a first hand account I had at a Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network event a few years ago.  I was attending this event, as a favor to a pro-family group.  In essence I was incognito because GLSEN is too afraid to tape their conferences and make the contents available to the public.  The reason, I believe, is because if the public actually heard the hate and intention to wreck the childhoods of innocent children themselves, then GLSEN would be shut down in a heart beat.

I attended a workshop about how to intimidate Christians on campus.  And I’m not making this up.  In this workshop there was an hour long discussion on how to use intimidation on the school campus in case their message was being ignored or hindered.

The case in point is using signs to promote either a gay straight alliance club or some other event promoting a homosexual tolerance event. Most schools have policies about advertising about club events, and yet the gay activists were telling this classroom of people how to  get around the policies.

In fact, they encouraged tearing down Christian club signs and then plastering their gay straight alliance signs in their place.  However, here is the intimidation technique they taught at the seminar.

Instead of simply posting their sign for the club, advertising their event, what they instructed the teachers and children in attendance to do was write another sign that said, "You’ve just committed a hate crime" and place that sign underneath their club sign.  Thus, the intimidation tactic.

In essence, the gay straight alliance club was told by GLSEN to ignore school rules on how to post a club sign, and they were told to put a hateful and intolerant message, which is a lie, underneath their sign, "in the event that sign was taken down."

Now the issue isn’t the sign being taken down because of the school policy.  They played the tolerance fiddle that says, "who cares about the rules and school policies because if you take my club sign down then you committed a hate crime".

In other words, the activists at GLSEN encouraged their students and teachers to break the rules, and use intimidation in their posting of signs in order to spread their message.

Instead of simply sticking to school policy.

Now you tell me, why doesn’t GLSEN tape their conferences so parents and the public can listen any time they want?

Simple, they are teaching hateful intolerance, how to break the law and the are engaging in criminal activity by intentionally promoting intimidation.

If a Christian club did this, we would be booked on a hate crime. 

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About Stacy L Harp

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    I wish you had credibility. From your previous overblown statements – and rare engagement in comment “conversation, it’s going to take a long while.

  • http://wisdomandmurder.blogspot.com Lisa McKay

    This isn’t intended to be snarky – I’m genuinely curious, given the content of your article, as to how many educational organizations do tape their conference proceedings and make them freely available to the public?

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Stacy, did it ever occur to you that as a straight person, you spend an awful lot of time concentrating on what gay people are doing? Why the fascination?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I’m not familiar with GLSEN, but they sound similar to a group which is active in our local high schools called OutYouth which seems to use similar tactics.

    OutYouth is basically a gay recruiting group which goes into high schools and attempts to encourage kids to come out and realize they are gay, whcih certainly seem to a lot of people – especially those who believe homosexuality is a choice – like an attempt to turn kids gay.

    From what I’ve seen, the techniques of OutYouth and the techniques of christian groups who attempt to recruit in high schools are virtually identical – form youth clubs at the school, hold rallys and events to promote their agenda, be ‘in your face’ with their opponents, and make sure that their adherents in the school engage in constant displays of their beliefs be it public ostentatious prayer, or flamboyantly gay behavior.

    One of the big objectives of these groups seems to be to intimidate the school administration so they can have free run to promote their agenda. This is presumably because if they weren’t intimidated any rational school administration would ban both types of groups from campus as disruptive.

    Dave

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog dolphin

    Oh geeezzz.

    I wrote a response on your other blog, thinking that you were legitimate. I can’t beleive I actually felt bad for you, thinking you had your van vandalized, even though I noticed it did look like a bit of a photoshop job, then I come here and read this nonsense and you lose all your credibility.

    I will be sharing the story of your bad photoshop job and your lying filth with others. Remember that when you have to lie to get at those you hate, it really only make YOU look bad.

  • http://mediasoul.typepad.com Stacy L. Harp

    First of all, I usually do not comment on nonsense or anything that has nothing to do with what I’ve written.

    Second, I don’t put a lot of validity in anyone who is afraid to use their real name. See, credibility comes when someone actually isn’t afraid to be known. Unlike some of you, I use my real name.

    To Dave, my guess is that OutYouth is some way affiliated with GLSEN since GLSEN is the largest gay network in the schools.

    Lisa, you ask a great question and I have to tell you that I don’t know, but it sounds like something you can do research on yourself and then let us know. :)

    And Temple…I could really carelesss if I have your approval or you think I’m credible.

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    **Recently I posted a real life incident that happened to me as my car was vandalized by an apparent “heterosexual hater” of traditional marriage. **

    Honey, if it’s only apparent to *you* then:

    a. It’s not really apparent.

    b. You’re a frickin’ genius.

    Logically you cannot say the vandalism was anti-straight…just anti certain beliefs of one particular straight person. AKA you.

    It was wrong. As much as I hate your knee-jerk hatred of others, they should not have done that.

    That being said: I Don’t Think Gay People are Stalking You. Now if you come home and find the Queer Eye guys hiding in your shower…maybe.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    First of all, I usually do not comment on nonsense or anything that has nothing to do with what I’ve written.

    On the other thread, tons of comments were made about the subject of what constitutes a hate crime and what doesn’t, which was one of the main points of your post. You didn’t chime in on that discussion, even though it was perfectly relevant.

    Second, I don’t put a lot of validity in anyone who is afraid to use their real name. See, credibility comes when someone actually isn’t afraid to be known.

    People use pen names all the time for a variety of reasons. Credibility and anonymity aren’t mutually exclusive. [Just ask Deep Throat.] But if you choose to ignore comments because you don’t know the writer’s name, that’s your prerogative. But you’ll find that on the Internet, you’ll be skipping a lot of conversations.

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    Stacy –
    Why wouldn’t you want to be perceived as credible? It would sure help people agree with your side. Really, why don’t you bother if you don’t want to inform and change minds?

    I use a pen name because I’m too damned honest for my own good and about to be living in a very small town. You want my real name, Email me. I’ll give you my hame, telephone number…whatever.

    I won’t burn my Elton John cds though…you can’t make me! :)

  • http://wisdomandmurder.blogspot.com Lisa McKay

    Lisa, you ask a great question and I have to tell you that I don’t know, but it sounds like something you can do research on yourself and then let us know.

    Stacy, I assumed that since you took great pains to point out that GLSEN doesn’t tape their conference proceedings that you might have reason to believe that most other organizations do so. If most organizations don’t do this, then GLSEN’s motives certainly don’t appear suspect in that regard, do they? Unless of course you just threw that in there to somehow make it seem as if GLSEN had something to hide…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    There’s nothing about this article which lacks credibility. What Stacy describes is entirely believable. The real question is whether it’s objectionable, and depending on your perspective either the GLSEN or Stacy is objectionable.

    Personally I object to both of them. But I still find him credible.

    Dave

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    I dunno. I think it’s GLSEN did what she said. If so, I don’t agree with that, but considering Stacy is not above misleading people (Naming one of her entries “Lustful Sex is Good” to get readers), and cannot even go to a kid’s movie (Kicking and Screaming) without fixating on the fact that there is a gay couple in the movie… Her history speaks of a zeal that is not above twisting the truth.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I’ve never attended a GLSEN meeting, however I do know that in our attempts to combat bullying and intimidation in schools, we have a variety of ideas and opinions on how to do so, because we are a diverse group of people. It’s possible some ideas are great and some ideas are not so good.

    One thing is for sure, I would never accept someone with an already established anti-gay bias as yourself, as being an accurate ‘reporter’ on GLSEN.

    I’m still laughing too hard over the concept that you are moaning about their ‘deception’, which you found out about by attending their meeting ‘incognito’!

    Can I point out that if you go to a meeting with the perception that you are ‘a hidden spy to observe’, then you already bring far more baggage and prejudice to the meeting, that will only simply further distort your view on anything said there?

  • Eric Olsen

    that’s perilously close to “OLSEN”

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    I’m still laughing too hard over the concept that you are moaning about their ‘deception’, which you found out about by attending their meeting ‘incognito’!

    lol….

  • JR

    Stacy L. Harp: First of all, I usually do not comment on nonsense or anything that has nothing to do with what I’ve written.

    bhw: On the other thread, tons of comments were made about the subject of what constitutes a hate crime and what doesn’t, which was one of the main points of your post. You didn’t chime in on that discussion, even though it was perfectly relevant.

    She just said she doesn’t (usually) respond to irrelevant comments; she didn’t say she does respond to relevent comments. (After all, those are even tougher to rebut.)

  • Nick Jones

    Wonderful case study of sexual paranoia, Stacy. Thank you.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    GLSEN is about educating people on the intimidation and bullying of gay and lesbian students, and working on finding a solution to the problem. GLSEN is open to all students/parents and teachers.

    To find out more about this ‘subversive’ organization, I suggest attending a meeting. This ‘deceptive’ and ‘infiltrating’ organization is, after all, open to everybody for attendance.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    So? Every political movement has its radicals, extremists and nutcases.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    um, if we REALLY read what Stacy wrote, when he/she is so bent out of shape about, is that the organization told people that underneath the GLSEN flyers, to put another flyer, saying ‘you committed a hate crime’ that people could see if the GLSEN flyer was destroyed.

    Read carefully about what Stacy is so bent out of shape about. He/she is upset that GLSEN would put a sign (of their own) on top of a sign (of their own).

    Oh, the inhumanity!

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Stacy also says that the GLSEN people instructed the attendees to tear down Christian group signs and replace them with gay alliance signs.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Actually Steve, you oversimplified a bit. I believe Stacy said they tore down Christian group signs to make room for theirs and then threatened people who tore theirs down. So it was ok to tear down the christian signs, but tearing thiers down was a hate crime. That’s an actual point, if the actions really took place.

    Dave

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog dolphin

    But GLSEN (the Gay, Lesbian, and Straight Education Network) is most certainly NOT a radical political group. GLSEN is about preventing imitation and bullying in schools. Their focus, as implied by their name, is on gay and lesbian youth, however they have been responsible for many generic anti-bullying programs throughout the school systems and are a leading force in the fight to remove bullying and intimidation (ALL bullying and intimidation) out of our public school systems. The claims here are utterly ridiculous, and that is COMPLETELY relevant. GLSEN’s website is availble for review at http://www.glsen.org and I would like to personalyl invite anyone who doubts this ridiculous story to visit and learn more or, as Steve suggested, simply attend a meeting on your own. Bullying should be something we can ALL agree is bad.

    Finally, when you are online you are exposing yourself to all kinds of people including psychos, etc. If you think my use of a pen name reduces my credibility, so be it (though I highly suspect it wouldn’t be a problem were I to agree with your point of view), but I will NOT put my family, my property and myself in danger for the sake of earning “credibility” to someone who isn’t even going to honestly consider what I have to say to begin with.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dave, no, Stacy did not say they tore down Christian signs. Stacy said they suggested that. And if they did, it was wrong of course. Hence my response of the group being made up of individuals, some with good ideas and some not so good. I addressed that already.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dolphins are smart mammals! I suggest nobody formulate an opinion on a group that teaches anything in your public school, until you attend that group yourself. See for yourself. It’s open to all. Don’t buy into the propaganda that it’s a subversive clandestine meeting. Hey, they may even have free doughnuts!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Do I have to dress up ‘incognito’ – perhaps in a Charles Nelson Reilly costume – in order to attend a GLSEN meeting?

    Dave

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Nobody does Charles Nelson Reilly like Alec Baldwin.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    No Dave, but you can do your part by bringing the doughnuts, but instead of doughnuts make it a pepperoni pizza.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    I know that GLSEN is not a radical group, but Stacy L Harp inferred that it is.

    If this story about the signs is true (we only have the author’s personal accounting of the events in question), the actions of those particular members of that chapter of GLSEN were on the periphery.

    Shenanigans in which paper signs are torn down and replaced with other signs is something that is to be expected from youth groups, but the use of the phrase, “You’ve just committed a hate crime,” is a bit extreme because putting up and tearing down signs is not a hate crime and calling it that makes a mockery of real hate crimes that involve the kind of intimidation and violence that are the focus of GLSEN’s anti-bullying programs.

    But that was not the purpose of my comment, which was to suggest that when one political movement wishes to identify another political movement by the words and actions of its radicals, then that political movement is obliged to own up to its own radicals.

    For example, anti-homosexual activists include the ignominious Fred Phelps and they own him, even if many of them would probably rather not.

    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. — Matthew 7:1-2, KJV

  • jarboy

    ain’t nothin in this whole wide world more intimidating than a homo-sexual person. when i see one coming down the street i always cross over to the other side. they can turn you queer just by brushing up against you, you know. they all hate straight people and want to turn the whole world gay — well, at least the good-looking ones. the uglies can stay straight, for all they care. look out. don’t let them get to you and your children!!!!

  • http://mediasoul.typepad.com Stacy L Harp

    What I find totally fascinating is that there is an assumption that you think I’m lying about this incident. I have no reason to lie about anything and yet as I stated before GLSEN doesn’t allow their meetings to be taped.

    The real question is why? Answer: They don’t want people to know the truth.

    That’s my point, thus going incognito.

    Oh, and to answer the question why I didn’t comment on the other thread the primary reason is because I didn’t read most of the comments because I have 3 jobs and don’t spend all day yapping on message boards!

    Must be nice to have so much time on your hands. :)

  • Eric Olsen

    keep rocking with your three jobs Stacy, and I believe you, babe!

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Maybe sometime in between you’ll get around to thinking clearly.

    You seem to have time for hate – and all these lovely meetings you attend which have apparently slowed that thinking thing.

    You also seem to have time to recruit a lot of other people who think like you, act like you, who want to be just like you.

    You have my pity – but not for your supposed lack of time (See you signed up for Blogcritics. I think that was a choice. Maybe God made it for you – but ultimately I think it was yours.)

    PS. If you’re going to convert anyone – you have to sound credible. Just a tip from the Temple.

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    Stacy –
    As I’ve said, you could very well be telling the truth, but since you’ve deliberately misled before…who knows. If you are telling the truth, then those people should be taken to task.

    I know when I post on BC or my personal blog that I make sure to monitor the comments. If I feel strongly enough to write something, I should be willing to defend that point.

    There is something disrespectful, imo, about not caring about responses. It seems to imply that only you — and people who agree with you — matter.

  • Haus

    BORING. Why do we always give people like Stacy attention? You’re not going to change her mind, because she’s coming from a very shallow place. No discussion needed. Just let this one go.

    I propose that next time Stacy posts something about some book she’s promoting, nobody bother with it because she’s going to work in her story about her car and her bumper sticker and the stupid rainbow that God promised her.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Look, clearly you think Stacy and I apologize for that. But when it comes to gays or anything else you find offensive – your hate outshines your thought.

    Media OVER Mind.

    Something occurred, I’m sure. I never said anything else. It’s your spin on that event that is not at all credible. And I agree with animal-loving Nicolette in regard to participation.

  • David S

    This whole discussion is truly mind-numbing. I particularly love the part about “turning people gay.” That’s like saying the WWF is trying to “turn people into Aardvarks” because they advocate for teh rights of Aardvarks.

    But then again, there really is no reasoning with the religious Taliban of this country. Don’t bother Stacy with facts, her mind’s made up.

    I will say that anyone that has to focus SO much of their time and energy on someone ELSE’s sexual activity sure seems to have a few issues of their own they ought to be working out, rather than trying to work out someone else’s.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Your posts are complete nonsense and fill me with questions.

    If it was such a secret meeting, how did you get in? Does “incognito” mean you dressed like Ellen? If you are so good at infiltrating organizations with your disguises, you should go join Al Queda, but I can see you find homosexuality a bigger threat than terrorism. If it was so important to get this group’s evil deception out, why are you just writing about it a few years later? It certainly seems more important than your bumper sticker post, don’t you think? Do you have all your Christian conferences recorded and available to be released? When I was in the Spanish club, we never recorded our meetings. You put a lot of validity into the bible and yet you don’t know the names of the people who wrote that, do you? And just so I have it straight this evil intimidation is a sign. Why not just turn the other cheek?

    Just because people think homosexuality is a choice doesn’t mean it is, but please feel free to tell me the day you picked yours.

    Stacy, if you want to be taken seriously, you should limit your anti-gay or “homosexual-hating” posts to every other.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Stacy sez…
    * I have no reason to lie about anything *

    according to what you have posted here on BC, as well as on your own site, you have many “reasons” why you might be factually innacurate to further your Cause…

    i’m not saying you are (tho the obvious photoshop bit doesn’t help your case)
    but you are quite mistaken in saying you have “no reason” to..

    since you deem all this a “holy crusade” all it takes is accepting that the Ends justify the Means..meaning, all is fair in love, war and holy works…and you can easily see how simple prevarication, or even simply stretching/coloring the Truth can be deemed needed tactics

    as was pointed out, this meeting you attended was open to the public..no need to be “incognito”..if you were wanting evidence, you could easily have brought in your own recorder and taped it…i am willing to guess that you could have had a copy of the “minutes” for the asking..

    you have shown a tendency to semantically charge words and phrases in a slant to achieve your effect..
    *apparent “heterosexual hater”*
    *intention to wreck the childhoods *
    *They played the tolerance fiddle *
    and finally your Conclusion…
    *Simple, they are teaching hateful intolerance, how to break the law and the are engaging in criminal activity by intentionally promoting intimidation.*

    i do note your own words as protestation…
    *And I’m not making this up.*

    the bigger Issue here is that you have cited 2 instances this “meeting” and “the vandalism”…both of which you have given no evidence of, save your own anecdote

    is there a police report, if so what newspapers “police blotter” could we find the incident, and on what day?

    what were the names of the people in charge of the “meeting” who allegedly advocated commiting the acts you cite?

    just showing you why some may doubt the veracity of your claims…

    my own Opinion is that no matter what Cause one advocates, the methods used to do so tell all about the true Nature of the Cause..

    if the “Ends justify the Means” then i am Ethically bound to be against it

    if “the Means are and End in and of themselves” then i will try and learn more …if it is something i think Worthy, i will work on it’s behalf

    if i think it is Crucial, then i will devote “my Life, my Fortune, and my sacred Honor” to it…the way i did when i voluntarily joined the military as a young man, to “serve and uphold the Constitution”

    just think about it next time you want to communicate outside your “choir”…it might help

    just my one sixth billionths of the world’s Opinion…

    your milage may vary…

    Excelsior!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Stacy, I think it is entirely possible that your interpretation of events are written down exactly as you see them having played out.

    I also know that anti-homosexual activists, (of which the frequency of posts would suggest you are one), see me as saying ‘Here is my partner and my daugher’, as activism.

    Once again, it should be stated that all GLSEN meetings are open to everyone in the school and their parents at least. It’s an open program designed to combat intimidation, misrepresentation and bullying. GLSEN groups have their signs torn down on a regular basis, hence the thought of one individual to put a notice up underneath the sign.

    Stacy should get a GLSEN member of that event to also come here and offer a perspective of what GLSEN members go through.

  • Roscoe

    Stacy has decided to join BlogCritics not because she has actually something intelligent to say but because she wants to increase the traffic to her site.

    Cheers to her achieving her goals and jeers to the rest of us for falling for it.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, but if Stacy’s postings here on BC just make her look like a flaming bigot, then people will only visit her site to heap more abuse on her, so what will she have gained except annoyance?

    Dave

  • http://mediasoul.typepad.com Stacy L. Harp

    Here is is almost 10 PM and I thought I’d check in with you guys before I go to sleep, and I just want to say thanks for taking so much time to share your hearts with me today.

    I joined blog critics because it’s a place I can post reviews and commentary. That’s the same reason I joined Blogger News.net because we can cross post things. I have no agenda except to voice my opinions and observations. And I’m so thankful because even though you may disagree and call me names, I’m used to it.

    No one so far has been able to refute anything I’ve written in any of my posts.

    However, I was accused of doctoring my photo of my car. It’s not true, I dont’ even think I have photo shop on my computer and even if I did I would have no clue how to use it. I took this picture and then posted it.

    Steve S – writes “I also know that anti-homosexual activists, (of which the frequency of posts would suggest you are one), see me as saying ‘Here is my partner and my daugher’, as activism.”

    Nope, in fact I have a sister in law who is a lesbian and I don’t see her as an activist. In fact, most homosexuals and lesbians are not activists. But that’s not who I’m talking about.

    See, I think the homosexual population falls into three general categories…

    1. The homosexual who truly struggles and wants to change, but doesn’t have the courage to look at the reasons for their emotional injury. So they remain sweet, silent and live nice lives, not bothering anyone. Like the majority of people.

    2. The homosexual activist who is running the school system and trying to change social and public policy.

    3. The former lesbian or homosexual who realizes God never created them that way, and they turned from their behavior that was unnatural sexually and got help and set free. ( To use some of that good old fashioned spiritual lingo!)

    Oh, and in case anyone is wondering I had over 1200 visitors today to my blog. Thanks! :)

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “No one so far has been able to refute anything I’ve written in any of my posts.”

    refute:
    1. To prove to be false or erroneous

    You haven’t proved anything true yet, so there’s nothing to prove. That burden is on you.

    2. To deny the accuracy or truth of.

    You obviously haven’t read the posts because there’s been plenty of refuting all around and you just choose to ignore.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    1. The deist who truly struggles and wants to change, but doesn’t have the courage to look at the reasons for their emotional injury. So they remain sweet, silent and live nice lives, not bothering anyone. Like the majority of people.

    2. The deist activist who is running the school system and trying to change social and public policy.

    3. The former deist who realizes Juju never created them that way, and they turned from their behavior that was unnatural sexually and got help and set free. ( To use some of that good old fashioned spiritual lingo!)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    The homosexual who truly struggles and wants to change, but doesn’t have the courage to look at the reasons for their emotional injury. So they remain sweet, silent and live nice lives, not bothering anyone. Like the majority of people.

    okay, setting aside the erroneous premise that homosexuality is derived from emotional injury, let me ask you this: If a person has a desire to change themselves but lacks the courage and has an emotional injury, how are they living a nice life? Sounds more like living in misery.

    The homosexual activist who is running the school system and trying to change social and public policy.

    This is the one I really want to address. I do not work with/for the school system. Within the school system, for many many years, gay and lesbian youth have been bullied and harassed and assaulted. If you went to school, as I am sure you did, you would have to have been exposed to some of this intolerance from a spectator viewpoint at least.

    The policy of violence and harassment we have endured for years, we are seeking to change. All people should jump on that bandwagon.

    The former lesbian or homosexual who realizes God never created them that way, and they turned from their behavior that was unnatural sexually and got help and set free.

    For some good reporting on the failure of conversion therapy, I’d recommend checking out Ex-Gay Watch.

  • jarboy

    i live in nyc and am afraid to go out at night because of the roving bands of homosexuals that prow the streets looking for breeders to beat up. recently, a normal, straight man, just minding his own business had his brains bashed out with a baseball bat just because of his sexual preference. women have resorted to walking their babies with other women, while pretending to be lesbian couples, so as to avoid harassment from the violent homosexuals. the city council has had to pass a law making it a hate crime to assualt a straight person. the entire nyc police force will be on duty june 26 for the gay pride parade to protect breeders who are dumb enough not to leave the city. it has becoem an event that sparks more fear than a kkk march in alabama. the queers are coming! the queers are coming! run for your lives!!!

  • http://mediasoul.typepad.com Stacy L Harp

    Steve,

    I’m familiar with Ex-Gay watch :) So just because a few guys/gals who don’t want to truly change doesn’t mean you can’t….the issue is they won’t.

  • jarboy

    stacy, hate to be a name-caller, but u r a ‘tard

  • jarboy

    anyone who makes a deliberate decision to be straight is actually deciding to be a closeted gay, which is psychologically unhealthy. real straight people don’t have to decide.

  • JR

    The former lesbian or homosexual who realizes God never created them that way, and they turned from their behavior that was unnatural sexually and got help and set free.

    There are numerous examples of animals engaging in homosexual behavior. If something that occurs in nature can be called “unnatural”, then it would seem the word has no meaning.

    (Nor does “free” in this context.)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Stacy, if you were really familiar with the ex-gay movement, you would know that even they concede that orientation cannot be changed, only supressed.

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog dolphin

    I’m familiar with Ex-Gay watch :) So just because a few guys/gals who don’t want to truly change doesn’t mean you can’t….the issue is they won’t.

    If you actualy look into the ex-gay movement, it’s not a “few” who don’t “change” it’s closer to 95% who either give up trying to “change” or commit sucide while trying. Of the few who DO manage to “change” surveys show that even the most dedicated indicate that their attraction and fantasy life remains unchanged. As Steve indicated, the ex-gay movement themselves acknowlege that they consider it a success if a person simply stops engaging in any type of romantic relationship with members of the same-sex. What they don’t seem to get, is that that doesn’t mean the person is no longer gay, anymore than a single straight person who chooses not to date is no longer straight.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Stacy L. Harp wrote: “See, I think the homosexual population falls into three general categories…”

    Indeed.

    1. The homosexual who truly struggles and wants to change, but doesn’t have the courage to look at the reasons for their emotional injury. So they remain sweet, silent and live nice lives, not bothering anyone. Like the majority of people.

    Translation: Those “practicing” homosexuals who keep to their proper place as second-class citizens.

    2. The homosexual activist who is running the school system and trying to change social and public policy.

    Translation: The “uppity” gays and lesbians who dare to demand equal recognition of their civil and human rights.

    3. The former lesbian or homosexual who realizes God never created them that way, and they turned from their behavior that was unnatural sexually and got help and set free. ( To use some of that good old fashioned spiritual lingo!)

    Translation: Those “ex-gays” who have been so effectively intimidated by a certain segment of society’s negative attitude toward homosexuals and homosexuality that they attempt to deny who and what they are to try and conform to an archaic social convention in order to avoid persecution — while leading mostly miserable lives (the inevitable consequences of living a lie), BTW.

    The most pernicious bigots are not those who hurl insults and slurs, but rather those who attempt to mask their prejudices with all of that “love the sinner, hate the sin” garbage.

    Fred Phleps and his ilk are absolutely revolting people, but no one can question their sincerity.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Margaret , my hero, sez…
    *Fred Phleps and his ilk are absolutely revolting people, but no one can question their sincerity*

    my Apologies, but i must disagree here..

    i DO question much of that ilk’s “Sincerity”…not all..but most

    the vast majority i have Observed fall into various categories of hypocrisy..from not practicing what they Preach, to the out and out Charlatans who take money from the poor in the name of their “god” and use it to line their own pockets…

    it woudl be quite interesting to see just how many of these “anti gay” activist types make their living from preying on their “flock’s” fears and doubts..as well as plotting the cash income of the “shepards” from before and during their sick “crusade”

    oh, that’s right..they don’t pay taxes, nor have any need to report their income..

    i guess that is why they drive caddilac SUV’s while many in their congregation walk to church…

    /end cynical screed

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    gonzo, you’re right, I should have been more specific and said that no one can question the sincerity of the bigotry and hatred expressed in their propaganda — even when that bigotry takes the form of the projected self-hatred of hypocrites who are suffering from an acute case of cognitive dissonance.

    I certainly did not intend to confer the quality of sincerity upon their motives. Thank you for helping to clarify these most important points.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    Phelps also has a Web site Godhatesamerica.com

    The American Army is a Fag Army!!

    “I don’t know how the hell these people got into our army,” — Rep. Ben Nighthorse Campbell

    We’ve been telling you for years that these were the people running your military, and you ignored our warnings.

    When you fill the army with fags and dykes and spit in the face of God, you have sown the wind, and shall reap the whirlwind (Hos. 8:7).

    This is the picture that America deserves.  Get used to it!  You worship at the fag altar, you get boxes draped in your fag flag coming home!

    Phelps is not typical of even the Evangelical side of Christianity (though some of their beliefs do clearly overlap).

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    What’s “Hos. 8:7″ – The Book of Pimpin’?

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog dolphin

    Stacy, these arguments don’t work:

    What I find totally fascinating is that there is an assumption that you think I’m lying about this incident. I have no reason to lie about anything and yet as I stated before GLSEN doesn’t allow their meetings to be taped.

    Actually, considering your anti-gay activism you have every reason to lie. You’ve offered no link to a policy statement indicating that GLSEN doesn’t allow their meetings to be taped, and admitted that other similar organizatons that you have no problem with might very well prefer not to be taped either.

    No one so far has been able to refute anything I’ve written in any of my posts.

    Have you READ anythign that’s been posted here. There’s been next to nothing that HASN’T been a refutation of your claims. For one, GLSEN’s less than radical agenda has been thoroughly discussed, a link to their site has been posted, and from that site you can get all kinds of information about their “top-secret” meetings that are open to anybody who cares to show up. What are such comments if not a refutation?

    It’s clear that nobody CAN prove that you’re not lying because let you in on a little secret, NONE OF US WERE THERE. Give us the exact time and location of the event (something you haven’t done that would at least add a little to your credibility), and we’ll see if we can find others who attended. I’d be willing to put money down that they’d refute your claims.

    However, I was accused of doctoring my photo of my car. It’s not true, I dont’ even think I have photo shop on my computer and even if I did I would have no clue how to use it. I took this picture and then posted it.

    I’m a graphic designer. I can’t say 100% that the picture is a photo montage (it’s too tiny and low resolution), but I can say that there are tell-tell signs of photo editing (as I noted on your main site). I can also tell you when someone who is already suspected to be a liar claims not to have photoshop (or similar editing software) installed after being accused of doctoring a photo, I’m not gonna be quick to buy it.

  • jarboy

    people hate in others what they fear most about themselves.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com Silas Kain

    Stacy — shocker of shocks, I am not surprised at all by your post. I honestly believe that there are gay activists out there who live by the conduct you’ve reported. The same can definitely be said for the Christian Right. There are zealots on both sides of the aisle who believe strongly in what they’re doing.

    I’m not out to convert anyone to the cause. However, there are young people who struggle with their sexual identity every day. Aversion therapy is not the way to go in most cases. If these teens were shown that a gay lifestyle is just as rewarding as a straight one, we’d go a long way in changing the dynamic in the gay community.

    I’m all for abstinence especially from an STD standpoint. By demonizing the gay sex act itself, we impose a lot of burden. Sex between two people is a beautiful thing and the sexual revolution of the 70’s did tarnish the beauty. When our society accords the same kind of respect to a gay union as a straight there will be a multitude of benefits.

    Love is. Love between two people should be respected and celebrated. To say that two women or two men cannot love each other the way a man and woman do is ludicrous. Take away the shame and replace it with pride.

  • B. L. Zibubbel

    How exactly does one go “Incognito” LOL!
    to a GLSEN meeting? It might give me a
    new costume idea for Halloween.It should
    beat wearing a sheet with eyeholes cut
    out of it,at any rate.Babe,you are just
    too much!!!

  • jarboy

    i think incognito to stacy means wearing an oversized plaid shirt, overalls, workboots, and a mullet wig, just like all the other dikes. you know, the way portia rossi dresses. she claims they won’t let you in if you’re dressed like a straight person.

  • Eric Olsen

    it’s all about sensible shoes

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    addressing the ‘incognito’. Also consider that it could mean the person is going into the meeting with the mindset of ‘infiltrating’ or ‘exposing’, thereby indicating a muddy-colored filter of
    ‘an enemy’ though which one would see everything is already well in place, right?

    Put aside the clothing jokes for a sec (although they are funny) but think about the mindset of somebody going to ‘spy’.

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    In espionage, always assume counter-espionage (Spy Vs.Spy). Also, assume that agents are/will be turned – thus the double-cross. Perhaps Stacy is actually a covert GLSEN agent raking up publicity (good or bad, it’s publicity) for them.

  • B. L. Zibubbel

    A fedora, cheap suit, rumpled trenchcoat
    and a newspaper to hide behind are not
    going to cut it then, you’re saying ?

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Stacy, I understand that you believe God abhors the homosexual act. I’d like to know your take on the site “God Hates Fags“. To me what they do is far worse than anything GLSEN is accused of doing. For a Christian to say that God hates something or someone is tantamount to Christian heresy. Where in the Word does it state God hates anything?

  • B. Lyle

    There’s nothing with Ms Stacy that a few
    drinks and some hot & heavy girl on girl
    action wouldn’t cure.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Actually, there are several spots on the Bible where it is clearly stated that God hates certain people or things, but Fred Phelps is still completely off-base and without Scriptural support.

  • Dan

    Well, I see no reason to doubt Stacy’s description of events. There was nothing so outragous about them that would make me think she was being dishonest. One commentor frankly confided that he would have vandalized her car.

    Stacy’s crime is that she exposed the bigoted zealotry of some homosexual activists. Group rights types cling to their victimization status for power. When it turns out that some of them can be just as nasty and vicious as the opposing forces they vilify, they lose their halo.

    Contrast Stacy’s story with an account of a gay activist from this site who, some time ago, gave an account of a brutal beating he received for being gay. He claimed that during the assault, one of the perpetrators read Leviticus. Later, at the hospital, the police laughed at him. Now, I’m not claiming anyone is lying, but, to me, the Leviticus reading sounds like a plot element from one of those drama enhanced “based on actual events” movies from Lifetime TV, and I don’t think it’s normal policy for police to laugh at such savagery, no matter who the victim is. But that’s just me. Of course no one here questioned the story.

    As an aside, I went through 12 years of public school with a few outwardly gay classmates. Never once do I recall any of them being beaten, and outside of some incidental harrassment, which most all of us got in one form or another, I don’t recall anything that would even rise to the level of torment.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Now, I’m not claiming anyone is lying,

    Uh, sounds like you are.

    Never once do I recall any of them being beaten, and outside of some incidental harrassment, which most all of us got in one form or another, I don’t recall anything that would even rise to the level of torment.

    So that means it hasn’t happened in other high schools? Your experience speaks for all?

  • Dan

    “Uh, sounds like you are.”

    Uh, let me try it again. I’m not claiming anyone is lying.

    “So that means it hasn’t happened in other high schools? Your experience speaks for all?”

    No and no. Of course experiences others have had also aren’t universal and do not speak for all as well.

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog dolphin

    I can’t believe my ears (or eyes in this case). You find nothing wrong with Stacy’s story about the nation’s largest mainstream GLBT education network instructing students to break school rules and vandalize another club’s property, but you can’t possibly believe that some hateful street thug would quote scripture while attacking a gay man?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    Not one person here has claimed that Stacy’s story could not have happened. I think we all know there are fanatics everywhere…even fighting for good causes.

    The only reason to doubt Stacy’s version of events is…well, Stacy.

    Whether or not the event happened, it’s the work of a fanatical mind to continually act like there is a major gay conspiracy.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Contrast Stacy’s story with an account of a gay activist from this site who, some time ago, gave an account of a brutal beating he received for being gay.

    That’s not an activist. That was me.

    That incident was a catalyst for change for me.

    83 percent of gay youth report experiencing name-calling and threats at school, according to a national study conducted by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.

    Gay and lesbian teens are nearly four times more likely to skip school because they feel unsafe, and are nearly three times as likely as their heterosexual peers to have been assaulted, to have been in a physical fight, or to have been threatened or injured with a weapon at school, according to a 1999 study by the Massachusetts Department of Education.

    A separate study in Massachusetts published last year in the Journal of Social Work and cited in a 2001 Human Rights Watch report indicated that lesbians and bisexual teens are four times more likely than heterosexual girls to be victims of attempted rape or rape.

    Last year’s Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network study found that the most common official school response to harassment was to do nothing: 82 percent of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered students said faculty or staff never or only sometimes intervened to protect them. Nearly 25 percent reported hearing derogatory comments from school personnel.

    source for data

    In terms of that incident, which I’ve had to share three times, so apologies to those who’ve read it, you can skip the fourth. This is what happened, it was in the 80’s and it was in the heart of the Bible Belt, so it was a different atmosphere, things have improved but not in all places. Anyway, I was about 21, closeted, my self esteem was so low I wasn’t able to hold a job longer than 6 months and had already tried to kill myself by that point. That night I was leaving a bar. I was in the parking lot when about 5 guys jumped me. Leviticus 20:13 was repeated during the assault. I went into shock, I ended up with a fractured skull, a concussion, a broken nose, smashed teeth and permanent although tiny scars on my face. I went to the hospital and they promptly called the police, against my wishes, because of the severity of the assault.

    I was laying there on the emergency room table, in pain and in shock, thinking I could not get any lower in my life. I had nothing, no one, the closet prevented me from sharing with anyone and yet still I was formulating plans on how to tell family/friends I was mugged while dropping someone off at the airport or something like that.

    The police came to the hospital, and I distinctly remember looking up at the bright lights above the emergency room table and seeing their images. It is one of those moments that live in you forever. There were two. I told them what happened and then I told them the location. When they realized it was a gay bar, they turned to each other and laughed. I saw the doctor’s jaw drop.

    I cannot accurately describe what I went through at that moment. I was forever changed. I didn’t think my situation, my life and even that night could have possibly gotten any worse, but I realized at that moment that there was no one to protect me. I was already familiar with the concept that an emergency call to the police from a gay establishment generated about an hours more waiting time than if the call was from somewhere else. They still raided the bars even in the 80’s, although mostly just on election year. They no longer carted people off in paddy wagons, but they did check ids of everybody in the bar on a semi regular basis. I have never known that to happen in a straight bar. I just knew at that moment, it was my proof, that there was absolutely no one there for me.

    That became the birth of my pride.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com Silas Kain

    Steve, thank you for sharing that story. I confess that I am a bit emotional right now because of the cruelty imposed by the police officers. As I have proclaimed many times, law enforcement officials must take some blame in promoting anti-gay hate crimes. There are police officers to this day who think that gays and lesbians are aberrations and should be treated as such. Justice is not dispensed equally in this country. Ask the black community. Ask the gays in small towns in the Midwest. Ask the gay kids beaten up in back alleys in the inner cities by a group of homophobes that usually include a couple of off duty law enforcers.

  • jarboy

    stacy, you and everyone else has a lot more to fear from the american taliban (i.e., evangelical christians) than from gays and gay marriage. gays just wnt to be able to live their lives in peace without discrimination; the american taliban want to dictate how everyone else should live. won’t be long before they’ll have you in a burka, babe.

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com/ Eric Berlin

    Man, that’s a crazy story, Steve. Thanks very much for sharing it. Amazing that that goes on in the heartland and in the cities, too. Places where “traditional values” are given high praise. “Family values.”

    Damn…

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    I think towns and cities have their own spirits and feels. I believe there are good and tolerant places through-out the country.

    Every time the topic of gay bashing comes up, the mid-west or middle America is invoked as if these places are populated by homophobes, bigots, and Nutty Religious People.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    You mean they’re not?

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Every time the topic of gay bashing comes up, the mid-west or middle America is invoked as if these places are populated by homophobes, bigots, and Nutty Religious People.

    Nicolette, while prejudice lives everywhere and tolerance can be found everywhere, there is a huge disproportional divide between the liberal coasts and the conservative midwest.

    My experiences, when I moved to California, are as different as night and day from when I was in the midwest. While nothing is absolute, Nicolette there is a definite imbalance. This can be witnessed by seeing where the battles for Creationism take place and stuff like that. It’s a necessary survival technique in my community to acknowledge the imbalance.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    “… won’t be long before they’ll have you in a burka, babe.

    May I suggest a little accessorizing for those burkas? Perhaps a few well placed sequins? Perhaps a nice colourful silk print with matching monotone stiletto heels? I see a new chain of stores springing up all over America. Ali Babba Ganoush Burka Boutiques. It’ll be the rage.

  • Mickey

    Why does the writer assume that gays are anti-family ? Gays are not born on Mars. They are sons , daughters , brothers and sisters .

    Live and let live. Is that so difficult to understand ? I sense a great hatred for the our homosexual brothers and sisters here. The sort of hatred nazis had for jews.

    Whats next ? Concentration camps ?

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I think that’s a little strong, Mickey. With all due respect I’ve seen plenty of conservatives and Christians on this site who have been very cordial to the gay community.

    Many gays are quite family oriented. However, many of the visible gays that society encounters are a bit over the top. Many Christians contend that gays are self-loathing, self-hating sad individuals. Face it, that’s the truth. Most gays have allowed themselves to be viewed as less than normal, second class citizens. For the gay community to really thrive, we need to reverse the paradigm. We have to prove that we are contributors to the family of man; we have core ‘family values'; and, there is a place for us at society’s table. We are our own worst enemy. James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and their kind can’t be reasoned with. They need to be shown that they are wrong by the examples we set forward.

    The gay community does have its role models. Scattered in little villages and quiet towns throughout this country are ‘alternative families.’ They work, not without problems, but they thrive nonetheless. Rosie and Kelli O’Donnell are another example of how a lesbian couple can love each other and nurture a family. Though Rosie does conjur up a lot of debate I don’t think it would be fair to say that those four children aren’t fortunate.

    We’re so focused on getting society to change and accept us that we’ve forgotten that we need to make some changes within ourselves.

  • http://www.dolphinsdock.com/blog/ dolphin

    I don’t think Micky is being too strong. Many, many, many conservative christians have voiced support for such an exermination of gay people. Is it all of them? No. Is it even MOST of them? No. But I’ve also noticed that with any and every victory that they win, they become that much more extreme. My suspician is that many of them would more than happily support the systematic excution of gay people, but the political climate is not at a point where such a statement would be advantageous to make.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I think that’s a little strong, Mickey. With all due respect I’ve seen plenty of conservatives and Christians on this site who have been very cordial to the gay community.

    Sorry, Silas, I agree with dolphin and Mickey. Mickey said ‘Why does the writer assume that gays are anti-family’, not ‘why does every Christian on this site…’

    It’s laying a comment like that across all Christians that give them the perception that they are under attack, when the reverse is true.

    Many gays are quite family oriented. However, many of the visible gays that society encounters are a bit over the top.

    Please give me a name of some of these ‘over the top’ gays.

    Many Christians contend that gays are self-loathing, self-hating sad individuals. Face it, that’s the truth. Most gays have allowed themselves to be viewed as less than normal, second class citizens. For the gay community to really thrive, we need to reverse the paradigm.

    Yes, too many of us are self-loathing and self-hating and this leads to destructive behavior like promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism and suicide. Which we then of course get blamed for. Nowhere in your statement do you say the CAUSE of this self-loathing. The cause is generations of demonization of us from the pulpit. People carry this sentiment out of their churches and into their daily lives.

    ANY group that faces stigmatization and oppression on the level that we do, is going to manifest that prejudice as self-loathing.

    So you need to point out that when Christians condemn us for being self-loathing, it is because THEY have created a society that loathes us, and we are a part of that society too.

    We have to prove that we are contributors to the family of man; we have core ‘family values'; and, there is a place for us at society’s table.

    Why, Silas? Why do I have to prove I am a human being to these people? I am a family man. Monogamous for 20 years, ever since I was 20. All through my ‘sow your oats’ age, I was monogamous. Christians would be proud. We also did a surrogacy and I am a family man. I work from home and raise my daughter full time. Christians would be proud. Why do I have to prove this to anybody? I should get my equality no matter how I choose to spend my life. Should somebody choose to not have children, then they are still viable members of society and they still contribute greatly.

    We are our own worst enemy.

    I disagree. I think this type of statement stems from an unconscious self-loathing. It is not our fault that we are oppressed. We cannot be blamed for our diverse reactions to oppression. We do not blame the victim for ‘deserving it’.

    James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and their kind can’t be reasoned with. They need to be shown that they are wrong by the examples we set forward.

    Even if they are shown, it amounts to nothing. Do you not think Ellen is an example of someone who does not lead a destructive lifestyle? When Ellen came out of the closet, Falwell called her Ellen Degenerate. No matter what example Ellen set (and she set a good one), they still condemn us. No, we have nothing to prove that we are entitled to equality, because they won’t give it no matter what. Witness the fact that I have openly admitted on this site that I do not engage in a certain gay sexual activity yet it is still brought up to condemn me in the very same thread.

    We’re so focused on getting society to change and accept us that we’ve forgotten that we need to make some changes within ourselves.

    The majority of changes we need to make, will be solved by getting the oppressive atmosphere removed. We are human just like everyone else and we are not infallible, yes we have problems and always will, so do evangelicals, conservatives and liberals.

    Sorry, Silas, the problem does not lie with the victim.

    And there are many people who would love to send us to some sort of concentration camp. They can’t so they take out their own self-loathing on us with baseball bats. Do you know how many Christians were victims of hate crimes last year due to religious belief? According to the FBI, zero. Do you know how many gay people were victims of hate crimes last year, due to orientation? Almost 2,000, according to the FBI.

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    Unless Michigan and Minnesota — the places I’ve lived in — are on a liberal coast I don’t know about, there is plenty of acceptance and compassion to be found around these parts. Enough? No, of course not, but it’s there.

    Ferndale Michigan is like a smaller version of San Francisco. Ford Motor Company is helping to build a gay community center there and it’s a lovely city. I know this because I, and a lot of straight and bi people, shop there often.

    Steve — my point is that just like you don’t like people to act like all gays have the same lifestyle, I don’t like to be painted a bigot because I don’t live in New York or California.

    Isn’t Stacy from California? I thought that’s what the license plate said in her “people are out to get me ’cause I’m straight” pic.

    I’m not about to tell you that there is not prejudice everywhere you go, but you can’t write off a whole big portion of the country either. You take people as individuals.

    Hell, I’ve been at a gay bar with a little old lady who was depressed when she found out the “Blow Job Contest” was about alcoholic drinks.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I understand, Nicolette. Again, yes, there is intolerance everywhere and tolerance can be found anywhere too.

    Michigan and Minnesota are not two places that come to mind when I speak of the midwest.

    I have pointed out the intolerance I have faced because of ‘good ole boy’ mentality from the midwest. I see a huge divide in cultural adaptability in regards to the coast/midwest. To use a stereotypical example, a redneck driving a pickup truck with a confederate flag and a gun rack in the back could probably be found anywhere, but you are more likely to find them in specific regions than in others. That’s not stereotyping or laying a generalization upon the whole populace. And I did point out the huge difference in treatment that law enforcement provides which seems to be contingent upon geography. Again, for the record, everybody in the midwest is not the same.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Way to go with boosting your site meter stats, Mr. Harp.

    About the ex-gay phenomenon, it appears you know very little — and that VERY FEW experience true change of any sort. Dr. Robert L. Spitzer’s controversial 2001 study (finally published in 2003) drew the conclusion that some were able to “change” (though they could have been bisexual or heterosexually inclined underneath — and those studied were led to participate via the exgay organizations THEY WORK FOR), but that the numbers of these people are extremely few. Interestingly, Spitzer, a psychiatrist at Columbia who had a part in the removal of homosexuality from the DSM, has come out publicly in favor of civil marriage equality.

    Even if a few claim they have changed — and good for them if they are happy — let’s look at those countless more who haven’t: Many experience emotional damage, loss of self esteem, suicidal thoughts (some succeed, sadly), and worse. And many give up on God, because who would want to follow so cruel a deity as the one promtoted by ex-gay “ministers” and “reparative therapists”?

    I thank God for Ex-Gay Watch, a vital source of info on the doings of the exgay militia and the religious wrong. A dear friend of mine runs the site. He does a supreme service to humankind.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    I screwed up the formatting bigtime and missed giving the link to a piece on Spitzer’s study: http://www.ralliance.org/SpitzerStudy.html

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Plenty of food for thought have you served here, Steve.

    Please give me a name of some of these ‘over the top’ gays.

    Good point. I won’t out anyone specific but I will cite examples. Take gay baths, steam rooms, highway rest areas, etc. Now before you go postal, I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been at these places. To me they feed into the whole self-loathing paradigm.

    Yes, too many of us are self-loathing and self-hating and this leads to destructive behavior like promiscuity, drug use, alcoholism and suicide. Which we then of course get blamed for. Nowhere in your statement do you say the CAUSE of this self-loathing. The cause is generations of demonization of us from the pulpit. People carry this sentiment out of their churches and into their daily lives…

    Actually I thought that the context in which I made the statement pretty much assigned the cause to the demonization you speak of. That being said, Steve, I contend that we really need to stop blaming the other side for our destructive behavior. The “woe is me” attitude and demonization of Christian bigots does nothing to help us as a community. The pulpit has been the epicenter of many of mankind’s woes for 2,000 years. The gay community is certainly not the exclusive victim of Christian bigotry. Women, Muslims, Jews, aboriginal cultures on every continent, etc. have been victims. I’m not discounting our place on the list. Granted, gays are the focus of bigotry by other religions as well but not to the extent that Christians have gone.

    You talk about the CAUSE of this self-loathing. Steve, I’ve been there. I allowed myself to fall into that trap. Christians and society didn’t cause my self-loathing. I did. As an individual I allowed myself to believe that which they were saying. When I reached deep within myself and found my path to the Almighty, I came to appreciate and accept who and what I was. Let them say what they want from the pulpit, Steve. We just have to insure that this dogma does not make its way into civil law.

    Why, Silas? Why do I have to prove I am a human being to these people? I am a family man. Monogamous for 20 years, ever since I was 20. All through my ‘sow your oats’ age, I was monogamous. Christians would be proud. We also did a surrogacy and I am a family man. I work from home and raise my daughter full time…

    Well, Steve, I think you made my point. You ARE that example I speak of. The life YOU live is that which many of us should try and emulate. Steve, you’re living, breathing proof of all that is good about the gay community. THAT, my friend, is the most powerful weapon against those who wish us harm.

    I think this type of statement stems from an unconscious self-loathing. It is not our fault that we are oppressed. We cannot be blamed for our diverse reactions to oppression. We do not blame the victim for ‘deserving it’…

    No, it’s not our fault that we are ‘oppressed.’ But that does not discount our individual responsibility. Meridel LeSueur said, “The history of an oppressed people is hidden in the lies and the agreed myth of its conquerors.” People like Dobson, Falwell and members of the Westboro Baptist Church are lying to their congregations. They have conjured up this myth that those who follow Christ are superior to the remainder. They impose their beliefs and perpetuate bigotry in its most diabolical form. Gays are the easiest of targets. Like it or not, Steve, some of us painted the bullseye on our own chests. Those that use the name of Christ to conquer are the antithesis to Christianity’s message.

    John J. Dunphy points out that “The history of Christianity has been largely written in blood, the blood of those whom it has sought to proselytize as well as that of those Christians who did not share the theology or ambitions of the male clerical oligarchy that has always wielded power in Christendom. This ignoble distinction is not nor has it ever been the exclusive prerogative of any particular denomination or sect; it is a living legacy of horror that is tragically common to the Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox bodies of Christian churches.” What these fundamentalists fail to admit is the basic fact that Christianity has been built on horror and human bloodshed. Somehow I do not think that the early Christians would approve of those tactics used since Constantine. Christianity’s imposition on the Roman Empire was not in Christ’s name, it was a mechanism used to homogenize the known world. Constantine didn’t convert to Christianity, he converted the world to his version of Christ.

    Even if they are shown, it amounts to nothing. Do you not think Ellen is an example of someone who does not lead a destructive lifestyle? When Ellen came out of the closet, Falwell called her Ellen Degenerate. No matter what example Ellen set (and she set a good one), they still condemn us…

    Point taken. But don’t allow Falwell’s words to diminish the example Ellen is making. Just because Falwell and his ilk refuse to celebrate and acknowledge Ellen’s example does not take away from her. These people are afraid, Steve. They operate from fear. They look at the advancement of gay rights as a direct attack on their machinery. They have no choice but to proselytize from the pulpit to preserve their religious base, personal wealth and societal status. They have created congregations of Lemmings who blindly follow but do not question. That isn’t what Christ did. He challenged Rome. He challenged religious authority. Rather than follow the examples set by contemporary Christian leaders, follow the example of Christ Himself. By recognizing our own self worth and value to the family of man, we spit in the face of these soldiers of Christ who have used Him not in the service of God but in the service of themselves.

    The majority of changes we need to make, will be solved by getting the oppressive atmosphere removed. We are human just like everyone else and we are not infallible, yes we have problems and always will, so do evangelicals, conservatives and liberals.

    Everybody has problems, Steve. That’s human nature. No doubt the gay community is oppressed. Have you ever considered, however, that the majority of the Christian Right’s followers are oppressed? Sooner or later the consistent suppression of human instinct is going to result in a backlash. Look at Martin Luther, John Calvin and Christ Himself. Rev. Falwell’s Thomas Street Baptist Church is a house of oppression, not a House of God.

    And there are many people who would love to send us to some sort of concentration camp. They can’t so they take out their own self-loathing on us with baseball bats. Do you know how many Christians were victims of hate crimes last year due to religious belief? According to the FBI, zero. Do you know how many gay people were victims of hate crimes last year, due to orientation? Almost 2,000, according to the FBI.

    Another point taken. But, Steve, how many of us are already in our own emotional concentration camp? Have you ever considered that there are Churches throughout this country that share more with concentration camps than they do with Christ? Many of these Christians who believe that they are championing Christ’s cause are victims themselves. They have submitted to religious leadership and not to Christ. The suppression of their own human instincts is manifested through their hatred of all that is “unchristian.” As the song goes, Steve, deep in my heart, I do believe we shall overcome someday. I’m not saying that it’ll be easy. The struggle will continue for many years to come. Let us not be afraid to stand up for that which we believe in our hearts is right. Let us come forth from a perspective of pride and hope and not cower in the shadows of fear. You are a living example of someone who lives from that perspective. Doesn’t it make sense that when we reject the mantle of victimization we diminish the other side’s power to victimize? For the first 50 years of my life I was a victim. I wasn’t a victim of society, I was a victim of my personal submission to what they perceive is their truth. The day will come where a modern day Martin Luther will nail his or her theses on the front door of Thomas Street Baptist Church. May the first of those theses read, “No follower of Christ shall use the Lord’s name to perpetuate bigotry, persecution, intolerance or bloodshed.”

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Some excellent points, Mr. Kain. But whatever the religious wrong’s power to victimize, they still have the law on their side. That very fact makes some want to flee or die, even as they fight.

  • Mickey

    Great points by both Silas and Steve. Fascinating discussion. Its ironic isn’t it , that a crappy article by an obviously bigoted idiot has enabled such a good informed debate.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    In some cases the law is on their side. But, as Huey Newton said, “You can jail a Revolutionary, but you can’t jail the Revolution.”

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Take gay baths, steam rooms, highway rest areas, etc. Now before you go postal, I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve been at these places. To me they feed into the whole self-loathing paradigm.

    Okay, I agree with you that we are responsible for how we handle what life throws us. However, if you look at the ostracization of gypsies in Russia, Jews anywhere, African Americans in our history, etc. you can see that it is a natural tendency to have large groups of people become self-loathing. ‘Uncle Tom’ is a good example. We do NOT say it is their own problem because they can’t handle it. Assume two INNOCENT people are locked up in death row. One may handle it and one may crack. The one who cracked can’t be entirely blamed for cracking. That is my opinion.

    And for the record, I would like to point out to the bigots lurking here (and you know they are there), about public sex like in rest parks and the like. For generations we could not bring our lovers home for the holidays. We could not introduce them in office parties, we could not marry them, we faced exile from our own blood relatives if it were found out we were gay, etc. so in order to have any semblance of expressing intimacy, it became two strangers meeting in the night and then going their own way. There was no alternative.

    Also, if you look at some of the bigoted comments made here, specifically ones that are obsessed with anal activity, such a lifetime exposure to such rhetoric can lead an impressionable young gay teen to grow up thinking that sexual activity is the sole criteria towards orientation.

    You talk about the CAUSE of this self-loathing. Steve, I’ve been there. I allowed myself to fall into that trap. Christians and society didn’t cause my self-loathing. I did. As an individual I allowed myself to believe that which they were saying.

    I do not buy that on a societal level. Women who are in abusive relationships come to believe they are lesser beings too, in no way do we say they earn each beating because they don’t better themselves or just because they might feel they have it coming.

    Let them say what they want from the pulpit, Steve. We just have to insure that this dogma does not make its way into civil law.

    I have never advocated changing the speeches from the pulpit. What I have always advocated here is accountability for free speech. Hitler was free to make his speeches too and look what happened when nobody tried to hold him accountable for his words. He got to take it farther.

    No, it’s not our fault that we are ‘oppressed.’ But that does not discount our individual responsibility.

    I agree. Where we disagree is in what that individual responsibility is.

    They have conjured up this myth that those who follow Christ are superior to the remainder.

    Amen.

    They impose their beliefs and perpetuate bigotry in its most diabolical form.

    Amen.

    Like it or not, Steve, some of us painted the bullseye on our own chests.

    And then we get blamed as a group for the actions of those who are self-destructive. Straight people can be just as self-destructive yet they do not condemn all straight people for that.

    But don’t allow Falwell’s words to diminish the example Ellen is making. Just because Falwell and his ilk refuse to celebrate and acknowledge Ellen’s example does not take away from her. These people are afraid, Steve. They operate from fear.

    oh yes, I know and I agree with you. I certainly don’t allow falwells words to diminish anything, however you must be speaking to the general populace here. Those of us who have distanced ourselves from the Church know that it is all about instilling fear in it’s congregation. I have become much closer to God and have actually witnessed extraordinary events (I won’t call miracles) of great beauty since I left the Church. I do not believe it is synonomous with Heaven.

    They look at the advancement of gay rights as a direct attack on their machinery.

    Their ideology is always one of fear. If you educate a teen on safe sex, then they are afraid the teen is going to rush out and experiment. (never mind the fact that the teen is going to experiment anyway). If you allow abortion then they become afraid that it will become a mass organization that just churns out abortions. If you allow same sex marriage then they are afraid their children won’t be able to accurately comprehend who they are attracted to, the list goes on, it’s always about fear. Man’s temptation and how he needs to be saved from himself. It has no faith in humanity and humans are nothing without the Word. Specifically their Word.

    That isn’t what Christ did. He challenged Rome.

    Yes, he did. He was a fine upstanding liberal who was against the hoarding of wealth and the condemnation of the weaker. Christ’s principles are so far removed from conservatism today, I can just imagine after he overturns the money lenders table he then throws a bucket of paint on someone wearing fur.

    He challenged religious authority.

    And in that vein, many of us gay people are far closer to Jesus than those we fight against.

    Rather than follow the examples set by contemporary Christian leaders, follow the example of Christ Himself.

    Clearly, you are speaking generically or to someone else.

    Have you ever considered, however, that the majority of the Christian Right’s followers are oppressed?

    okay, here’s a comment that ALWAYS sends the fundies into a tizzy. Yes, not only have I considered that, but I consider it brainwashing and indoctrination. It is a belief system that is oppressive and exclusionary and fundies put their children in it at a preschool age or earlier so they grow up with it. They have no choice but to come to believe it and have it be a part of their life. They do not CHOOSE Christianity, they are force fed as reality, it at an early age.

    I agree with you that gay people need to look inside themselves and better themselves. We all do. The only part I disagree with, it sounds like, is the level of culpability for the whole atmosphere of oppression.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Amen, Steve, amen.

    Let them say what they want from the pulpit, Steve. We just have to insure that this dogma does not make its way into civil law.

    Too late. We have to get this dogma out of civil law.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    They do not CHOOSE Christianity, they are force fed as reality, it at an early age.

    Amen, Steve. They did not CHOOSE Christianity, they were indoctrinated; and I did not CHOOSE to be gay, it is a part of my soul.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    “I am what I am…”

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Silas, we are in agreement on so much, that is the important thing. (thank you, btw, for the compliments on my value system and my family).

    But much of your premise of how we can reach inside ourselves and better ourselves was that we need to ‘set an example’, ‘show we are of values’, etc.

    Please consider this for a bit, it’s something that I had to actually consider for about 2 years before I could come to a conclusion on it:

    I AM what you say we all need to be. Not a ONE person on this site who is against SSM for gay people, has been okay with it for ME. Living this way has accomplished nothing outside of the home, but so much within, and that is what it is all about.

    I don’t need a place at their table. They don’t want to offer it. That’s okay. I’ve got my own table. If someone is hungry, nobody needs to prove anything to sit at my table.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I AM what you say we all need to be. Not a ONE person on this site who is against SSM for gay people, has been okay with it for ME. Living this way has accomplished nothing outside of the home, but so much within, and that is what it is all about.

    You know what, Steve? You’re absolutely right. And what is most unfortunate is that those who have not been OK with it for YOU are really missing out on something special. Perhaps through your child and those who have shared what you have accomplished within your walls will take it out into the world and cause others to open their hearts.

  • http://worsethanmybite.blogspot.com/ Nicolette Rivers

    I still think the example makes a difference…not to the bigots — never to them…but to the people who are undecided and the younger people choosing their own values.

    A bigot can scream about all they want about how immoral gay people are, but if the people they want to convince of this fact are seeing proof that gays want the same as everyone else, it’s a losing battle.

    And we cannot discount the fact that again and again people are finding out that Cousin Bob, Aunt Sue, and the nice “bachelors” down the street are gay and really decent people.

    The reason why certain extremists in Christianity are so pissed off and paranoid is because they know they are on borrowed time.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    That’s a great point, Mr. Kain. I certainly hope that kids like Steve’s daughter and my children will spread a postive message of inclusion throughout the world.

    But let’s talk about values and such. I think my home life is pretty much the life of a good Christian (liberation theology kind). Even my mother calls me a prude: I never did the promiscuity bit. And at chez Davis-Connolly, we value our faith, pacifism, actively working for a better world, and helping our kids be compassionate and responsible world citizens, blah blah blah. But how about those with different value systems — should they be punished for not putting the value on monogamy and such that we do? I think not. Enforced conformity of that sort is anti-liberty.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    You’re right, Ms. Davis, enforced conformity is anti-liberty. That being said there’s a lot to be gained by promoting ‘values’ within the gay community. The more we work to normalize the image of the ‘gay family’ the quicker we will achieve the respect that we seem to long for. Personally, I don’t think we require the rest of society’s respect in that will be achieved when we heighten our own self-respect. Does that make sense? Somehow it doesn’t read as well as I hoped.

    And, as a side note, I’d like to thank everyone that’s participated in this lively debate. What had the potential for being a scathing reparte has turned into an enlightening experience. Stacy L. Harp, thank you. You’ve intimidated us into coming out of the shadows.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    lol…

    Mr. Kain, I understand what you’re saying, but at the same time, I can recall all too well the treatment that, for example, drag queens receive from within and without our community. (We’re oh, so proud at Pride, but you always have a contingent of folks who want to hide the drag queens and dykes on bikes. There is something wrong about that, IMO. You and I may consider monogamy or certain modes of comportment ideal, but people’s mileage varies on that. And who gets to decide what’s “normal”? There is a danger in that, as we who are second-class under law know all to well.

  • http://www.biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Ms. Davis, I’m about to make a confession.

    From 1975 until 1978, I was involved with a very popular drag show in the Northeast. The show began in a gay club but within months it was on the straight club circuit. After about a year of being involved in lighting and stage production, I donned the wig and gown as a joke to the divas in the cast. This little prank was put together by me and one other person in the troupe. Suffice it to say, it was such a hit, that I spent the next two years travelling with the show as a performer.

    As I look back on those days I regret that my own self-esteem was not where it is today. I think I would have more to offer. That being said, I wouldn’t trade those years for anything. They were an integral part of the growth and healing process.

    I really don’t want to hide the drag queens or the dykes on bikes. They’re a part of who we are, they just don’t define who we are. It shocks many of my friends because I am the furthest thing from the sterotypical drag queen. Back then there was what I called the “Fag National Anthem” by Shirley Bassey. It was the song, “This Is My Life.” Mario Cantone opens with this song in his Broadway Show “Laugh Whore.” Some of the lyrics to the song ring true today:

    Sometime when I feel afraid, I think of what a mess I’ve made
    Of my life
    Crying over my mistakes, forgetting all the breaks I’ve had
    In my life
    I was put on earth to be, a part of this great world is me
    And my life
    Guess I’ll just add up the score, and count the things I’m grateful for
    In my life
    This Is my life
    Today, tomorrow, love will come and find me
    But that’s the way that I was born to be
    This is me
    This is me

    This is my life
    And I don’t give a damn for lost emotions
    I’ve such a lot of love I’ve got to give
    Let me live
    Let me live

    I’ve added up the score, Ms. Davis, and I am damn proud of who and what I am. I have plenty to offer this world and for those who wish to accept what I have to give it is theirs for the taking. And for those who reject it, so be it. The loss belongs to them.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Great story! I really admire you and appreciate the road you have traveled. I agree, the more outré among us do not define us, just as we should not define them. And yes, the loss belongs to those who reject us. Sad truth is, those who reject us are not feeling the pain — it is those not equal under law. Some may deal with the lack better than others, but that isn’t the point. We are not in the wrong, yet we are being punished.

    And the only national anthem you’ll catch me singing is the Shirley Bassey tune. :)

  • Adam Kautz

    stacy I have no reason to believe you, as you do not have at least 2 other witnesses to back up your claims about glsen I won’t believe you. It is people like you who are in need of help not me, you see you are suffering from what is known as the sociopathic personality disorder, as you should already not the vast majority of sociopaths are religious, whereas normal people are spiritual, there is a difference between the 2. One is that being religious is being strict with something in your case it is your ultra-strict interpretation of the bible and your judging others actions instead of your own, you know if you were more worried about your own sins you would be much happier.

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