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Inspector Javert and Judge Roy Moore

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Today during our Wild at Heart study group, we watched a clip from the movie Les Miserables.

The scene: Fantine (played by Uma Thurman) has just been sentenced to 6 months in prison for some incident by Inspector Javert (portrayed by Geoffrey Rush). Jean Valjean (played by Liam Neeson) comes to her defense with new evidence. Inspector Javert cites the letter of the law without any grace or compassion or leniency (these three traits were pointed out by the leader of our study group) contrary to what evidence has been provided by Jean Valjean. Jean Valjean, therefore, by letter of the law has Inspector Javert released of duty and frees Fantine.

When I see Judge Roy Moore and the Ten Commandments, I see the same evil as portrayed by Inspector Javert. There are all types of arguments that are given for both sides, but none of them have the same argument that I present as follows:

When a person walks into the Court House and sees the Ten Commandments, they lose all hope for seeing any leniency or compassion in judging. The see the representation of a “hanging judge” in that marble slab. They see as we saw in the Les Miserables only the desire and ability to give the maximum sentence for the crime regardless of evidence and circumstance….

It may or may not be what Roy Moore intended to be provoked. But that is what I think most defendents feel….

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  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    This has got to be the silliest excuse of a point I’ve seen yet against Roy Moore.

    You do know we are a majority of this country, and crap like that is only encouraging us to put you aside and let you whine like babies.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Mr. Bambenek, while your opinions and insights are just as valid as anybody else’s, you are not a part of any majority that I know of.

  • Eric Olsen

    I think it’s an interesting conceptual conflation, although it might be helpful to give a bit of background on Moore for the uninitiated reader – thanks Mojoala

  • Dr. Tristan, M.D.

    Why are so many people focussed on vengeance and retribution;

    why are more people not following thei “supposed” christian “Mentor” Jesus Christ and practicing the Love that he tried to teach…

    simply amazing that all these who profess to be “christians” and scream about what a crime abortion is–
    yet also scream for the death penalty…
    a truly loving and merciful compassion as taught by Jesus, eh…???

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Dr. Tristan, M.D. asked: “why are more people not following thei “supposed” christian “Mentor” Jesus Christ and practicing the Love that he tried to teach…”

    Most Christians do and are getting mighty annoyed at being lumped in with a small fringe group of people who call themselves “Christians” while preaching the “virtues” of bigotry, intolerance and hate.

  • Johnny Davis

    Actually, by ackowledging the ultimate
    spiritual orgin of law one does not
    make the law heartless. The opposite
    is true law is no longer an empty
    unpersonal thing. Law comes form
    authority given by a personal and
    compassionate God. The same God that
    gives law gives mercy. The law
    therefore does not only want to punish.
    The law wants ultimate justice.
    Justice wants to bring back into society
    those who can be saved.

    The sad truth of the matter is many
    who attack Moore are simply motivated
    by ignorant anti-Christian bigorty.
    I do admit that there are bad types
    in the leadership of the religious
    right. I can understand why they would
    give non-Christians or even liberal
    Christians a bad view of Christians.
    However, I ask you not to judge
    all Christians based on a Pat Robertson.
    You may think that Roy Moore and Pat
    Robertson seem the same because you
    have heard them take some similar
    stands both being against abortion etc…
    However, there is a world of difference
    between them. I challenge you to read
    Moore’s book with an open mind. You
    may still disagree with him but if you
    are open minded I think you will see
    the difference. Moore is an earnest
    humble man. Moore does not condemn
    anyone for having a different viewpoint
    than him and he does not wish to impose
    anything on anyone.

    The reality is America is controlled
    by a corrupt elite that is destroying
    our liberties and bringing this nation
    to ruin. The elites of both parties
    are on the same page and serve the same
    interests.

    The earnest figures of the relgious
    right like Roy Moore oppose this elite
    like the earnest figures on the left.

    The elite wants the earnest left and
    earnest right to fight one another
    while they make slaves of us all.

    We need to stop yelling at each other
    and listen to one another. The Bushes
    and the Clintones of this nations
    are the true enemies of all those
    who love freedom regardless if they
    be left, center or right.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Johnny sez…
    *Law comes form
    authority given by a personal and
    compassionate God.*

    you lost me right there…

    in the US, the Rule of Law comes from the social contract of our Constitution..

    it is completely fallacious to believe that the 10 commandments have anything but a historical significance when it comes to our judicial system…

    out of the 10, only 3 have made it into US law…murder, perjury and theft..and every civilization in recorded history has laws against those 3

    if for no other reason than the content of the first Commandment, it shows they have no place in a secular government based upon the Rule of Law that is founded on the concept of religious plurality, including the Right to have no religion whatsoever

    until and unless the “religious right” can understand this simple Thought, there is not much that can be discussed rationally

    your mileage may vary

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.weneedmoore.com Kristy Smith

    I totally support Judge Moore. Why fear someone who is willing to stand up for the Constitution. Liberals beware! There might not be a “majority” but there is a “movement” for values. Join the supporters of Judge Moore at http://www.weneedmoore.com

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Kristy,

    what Moore did was the exact opposite of standing up for the Constitution..it was in clear violation of it

    add to that , the criminal action of defying a higher Court’s order

    he got what he deserved

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Only the liberals need beware? What about the rest of us who do not subscribe to the sort of “values” being forwarded by this “movement” that thinks our First Amendment applies only to Christianity?

    It was not anti-Christian bigotry that got Roy Moore into trouble, it was Roy Moore who got Roy Moore into trouble, whether he is politically ambitious or an earnest man of faith or a little of both.

    The fringes on both ends are extremists because they are authoritarians and authoritarianism of any flavor is an anathema to most Americans.

    But there might just be a little something to the notion that it behooves our politicians of every stripe when the extremists on both sides of the spectrum are battling it out over “values” — be they putting the Decalogue on courthouses and oppressing women and homosexuals or taking our guns away and telling us what sorts of food we may or may not eat and what type of personal transportation we should be allowed to own — because it provides a distraction from matters such as foreign and economic policy as well as the rather large amount of pork being consumed on a bipartisan basis.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Here we are getting all worked up over a rock in a building…a piece of art…if it was a crucifix soaking in a glass of urine it would’ve been alright…but a peice of art…depicting a setting down of some laws…in a building where people are judged somehow infringes on somebody’s rights….I don’t know how…but apparently it does…I’ve said it before…what difference does it make…it’s the rock sitting behind the bench that needs worrying about…

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Indeed, it is rather silly to get all worked up about a rock because a rock is nothing more than a symbol. Some might even call it a graven image because a rock is not the Decalogue, its just a rock with the Decalogue chiseled into it.

    If the 10 Commandments are written upon the heart, then no one can ever take those principles away, even when rocks must be removed to a Constitutionally appropriate venue.

    The Decalogue posted on a courthouse infringes upon the rights of all non-Christians because of the suggestion that only Christians will find justice in such a courthouse.

    Whose rights are infringed upon when the 10 Commandments are not posted on courthouses?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    the ten commandments are not strictly a christian symbol…and the rock only makes the suggestion you say it does because YOU say it does…doesn’t suggest a thing to me…and I talk back to the TV!

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    and the buddhist, or the atheist, or the hindu..or even we followers of JuJu…

    how do you think that first commandment sound to tyhopse kind of folks andy?

    you keep bringin g up that “crucifix” bit..that was in a gallery…NOT a Courthouse

    one if for exhibiting art…the other a governmental institution for dispensing justice

    i know ya ain’t that dim, try laying the dittohead bullshit aside for just a second…k?

    Excelsior!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    it was in a gallery art show funded by the govt…come on gonzo…you tell me not to play stupid…you’re not allowed either…I mean…do you really walk into the courthouse and look around on the walls to see if there’s something that might tell you how the judge is gonna rule??? I don’t even go to church anymore…haven’t for years!!! and I could give two shits about the religious right…it just seems so utterly ridiculous to worry about this petty secular vs religious bullshit!

    I really think it’s a ridiculous argument! I’m way more worried about the assholes making the judgements than the bullshit on the front lawn!

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    remember the case involving Moore?..his placement of this monument, the timing, his defiance of a Court order?

    that DOES show a lot about the man on the bench, doesn’t it?

    i guess i just don’t want to be prosecuted/persecuted for the 7 out of 10 commandments that have not made into our Rule of Law

    and those, like Moore, that want to try and tell me that our nation’s Laws derive from those 7 scare the liberty loving shit out of me

    those that are trying to say that the “rocks” are “traditional” are also engaginog in lies and deceit…well over 90% of them were placed during the 50s by the film company that produced the movie, “the Ten Commandments” as part of an advertising campaign

    yeah…don’t ever believe me…look it up

    so i say to you, that assholes behidn the bench that put those rocks out front are the ones i worry about…especially because i don’t have to go to that gallery, but i would have to (as in compelled by Law) to show up in Court

    once agani..i am forced to consider, why do i even bother typing here

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    The Ten Commandments are of Judeo-Christian origin, to be specific. While they are not “strictly a Christian symbol,” they are most decidedly not inclusive of all faiths.

    The very first of the 10 Holy Commandments is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3, KJV), so how could anybody who has gods other than the Judeo-Christian God (or no god(s) at all) ever hope to receive equal justice in a courthouse that bears such a message?

    The people who think/feel that the removal of 10 Commandments displays from courthouses and other government buildings is somehow a violation of their First Amendment rights are not really concerned about the values the Decalogue represents (those are supposed to be written upon hearts from which they can never be removed), but rather having their religion recognized as being superior to other religions.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    you know…I’ve been in a court room once or twice…yeah..imagine that…I never remember worrying if the right monument was outside the building or not…I worried that I was dressed right…that my tie was straight…yeah…I wore a tie…that my shoes were shined…yeah…wore leather shoes too…that I took the earrings out of my ear…shit like that…I didn’t wear a cross around my neck or a star of david…or anything…I said yes sir or yes ma’am…been there more than once…those are the things I did to make sure I was getting a fair shake…not look to see if there was a fucking monument outside the building!

    Yeah Moore is an asshole…I believe he’s unemployed now too…

    and for the record…I never said they were traditional…I said they don’t matter…so I guess the word I’d use for them is trivial.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    nice that it doesn’t matter to you, andy

    but i guess it is too much to ask you to read and comprehend the points made in the two comments above yours

    Symbols, especially those used and sanctioned by a governmental agency…are NOT trivial…

    hwo would you feel if the judge you had to go in front of had a Koran opened and was looking up the punishment there?

    a faceitious bit, i know..but very similar…my Question is, how woudl you have felt about the impartiality, fairness, and adherance to the Rule of Law had such been the case?

    now could that possibly be how a sizable percentage of americans have felt about that “rock” on the way into the courtroom?

    put one in your yard..that’s your Right…but NOT on Courthouse grounds

    Excelsior!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    but see that’s the thing gonzo…even if there’s a monument out in front of the building…the judge STILL has to ues our rule of law…and I would think…if I came from a country that was used to stonings and beheadings and the like…that rock might even be a comfort as opposed to seeing a copy of the qu’ran there…just a thought…

    I get your drift…I understand the separation issue…but like I said…do you really look around the building to see if you’re going to be judged fairly? Or do you look in the eyes of the person judging you?

    and I really don’t want one of those on my front lawn…maybe a big Giants emblem or a Yankee emblem…but no ten commandments…I’ve broken so many of them…I think I’ve broken most of them…except maybe #5…now PETA would argue that one…but back in the day…I could go to confession and be absolved…

    and gonzo…don’t hurt my feelings…I can read…and even comprehend sometimes…just because I don’t see things your way…I guess to you…that means I’m not paying attention?

    I’ve read alot of what you’ve written on here and I can honestly say I’ve learned a thing or two from you…but I’ve got my own ideas on a lot of shit…and I really really think this issue is blown way out of proportion…

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    fair enough andy…

    i can Respect your viewpoint, even when i don’t agree with it

    the thing is, i DO see this as a very important issue, exactly due to the separation of church and state…i perceive a deliberate, systematic attempt to tear the “wall” of that separation down

    and while i do not adhere to any kind of slippery slope argument…in the realm of legalities, there does exist the concept of “precedent” which is applicable in these cases

    your statement that you have learned somethings from my mad typings does hearten me a bit…so much lately i feel as if this ephemeral medium is just a waste fo my time and effort, those that understand what i am trying to get across don’t need me to say it, and those that disagree aren’t ever going to “hear” the points i raise, or bother thinking about it clearly….much for me to contemplate on the Topic

    as for this particular Issue being “blown way out of proportion”…no, i don’t think so…i personally think it is being shoved aside, and made so that it is NOT in the realm of public discourse, because those that are promoting the Agenda of putting the church in our government don’t want folks to know what they are doing…

    example right here on BC…take a look at the “Middle Ages” thread…revisionism or rational Thought?

    as for looking into the eyes of the Judge..yes, that is important…but when that Judge is the one who put the “rock” there, it does give some indication of how he is going to Rule, yes?

    in this particular case, check out Moore’s record, and the text of some of the admonitions he spoke when giving his Rulings from the bench…much of it was spoken like a preacher rather than a Judge

    and THAT is a greater danger to our secular Rule of Law than you might care to contemplate

    silly me…i am bothered by shit like that, not well meaning folks such as yourself…but i DO consider the cavalier attitude shown by yourself with the statement *and I really really think this issue is blown way out of proportion…* is part of the problem…

    anytime the populace remains indifferent to the erosion of their Rights, you can almost guarantee that those Rights will deteriorate, taken by those that have their own Agenda…when this comes in the guise of “religion” it happens more quickly, and hits with the force of the so-called “will of God”

    silly heretic that i am, i don’t like it

    hope that helps explain it, please forgive my bout of depression when it comes to the blogosphere at the moment..i meant nothing personal towards you, andy

    Excelsior!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    but Moore is gone…isn’t he? maybe the issue is that my personal rights haven’t been infringed upon…at least not where I can see it or feel it…

    but you know…there is a slippery slope…I remember growing up and seeing a christmas tree on the fire house lawn and thought it was pretty…I know it’s a symbol…on public ground…I guess now that I’m older…I won’t say grown up…that’d be lying…I’m supposed to look at it differently? because somebody else doesn’t celebrate the same holiday?

    and gonzo…the place wouldn’t be the same without you…even when you’re wrong….hehehehe

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    i am aware of no case where a tree is not alolowed, a nativity , yes..but the tree is non-sectarian, and i don’t know of a single case where it’s been argued against…

    i just have a problem with those that assert the U.S. is a “christian” nation, and whose political agenda is to make it so

    yes, Moore is gone…defying a Court Order ain’t smart…but there IS a justice on the upreme Court, who..in open court, when sitting ona case involving the ten Commandments stated…on the record…”our Laws come from God”

    that scares the shit out of me

    but this discussion just illuminates the difficulties i spoke of earlier…i can understand your viewpoint, and where you are coming from…and when your thoughts on’t infringe on my Rights, i have no problem…hell, i’ll defend your Right to say it, wrong as you may be (heh)

    i don’t see the same civility, manners, or Courtesy extended from the vast majority on the GOP, religious right et al, side

    instead i see “blogbursts”, talking points , distraction and a constant erosion of Individuals rights and protections in favor of corporate interests, pork barrel spending from those that had always advocated “fiscal restraint” and “smaller government”

    on and on ad nauseum

    just me , i guess

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.weneedmoore.com Kristy Smith

    Gonzo, your long posts are freedom. Your thoughts are free. Your desire to work overtime to prove that things are moving in the wrong way is an additional freemdom. What are you sayiny? Is the process of objection to rule something you want or something you want to remove from our government? The actions Judge Moore took to stand up for his values seem a lot like your effort to push your ideas! I am fond of all who are willing to stand up and act on their disires to improve our world. If that is what you want, I respect you. Would you please tell me who some of your favorite “leaders” are? Marx?

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Franklin, Jefferson, Groucho…

    there is a huge difference between my own feeble rantings and the actions of a Judge on the bench, wouldn’t you say?

    my words cannot incarcerate an individual

    my action cannot be used as legal precedent

    i can Respect the fact that Moore stood up for what he believed in…and i do

    but i also reserve the right to speak out in the fact that what he was attempting to do is wrong, in my own opinion

    i also see that there should be a complete separation fo church and state…as did Franklin and Jefferson…

    hope that helps

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.weneedmoore.com Kristy Smith

    And this, “instead i see “blogbursts”, talking points , distraction and a constant erosion of Individuals rights and protections in favor of corporate interests, pork barrel spending from those that had always advocated “fiscal restraint” and “smaller government”” Seems to be the DNC’s way of life, really doesn’t it?…Howard Dean, Woopi Goldberg, blah blah blah…

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    try and deal with Reality here…Dean, Goldberg and the DNC are not running the Nation at this moment

    not counting the war costs, we have gone from a national surplus to record defecits in the last five years…are you trying to blame dems for that?

    for the record, i am and Independant, i am a member of no political “gang”

    but from the last bit you wrote..i can make a guess where you stand on much of this, and while i Respect your right to have your views..i must disagree, and once again determine that a try at discussion based upon the actual Issue is pointless

    a shame, really

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.weneedmoore.com kristy Smith

    Good Point

    The issue to me is how to have a better world for our children. The issue is London this week. But the “issue” always changes and when it comes close to me I want a citizen living next to my home that will care about my children. Bottom line,…I think talking about how the world issues don’t matter to us here in our city is a little koo koo.

    Leaders, and I have mentioned that a few times, are the ones who will stand up in front of many and be strong about their convictions. As sild as that sounds to many, I believe that Judge Moore is a “leader” I can support. I read his book and found it informative and insightful. He is a person I am going to vote for if he runs for Gov.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    kristy sez..
    *I think talking about how the world issues don’t matter to us here in our city is a little koo koo.*

    i have no idea where you got this one from…and defy you to show any place where i said that such should not occur

    that being said..i am much more than a “little koo koo”…i am one outright crazy mean sonofabitch who barely restrinas himself in some of these discussions

    vote for who you like..such is your Right…i think i have clearly delineated my own objections to people like Moore being in our government

    having a better world for our children is a prime tenet for any civilization…my argument is that our Founders laid out a pretty decent guideline..a secular government, made up of an elected Republic, limited in how it can control an Individuals Rights and Liberties

    i can conceive of NO way that any kind of theocracy can accomplish that as well

    the Issue of London is covered on many other Threads, and has nothing to do with this Discussion, now does it?

    so decide what it is you do wish to discuss, and i may do my best to clarify my own Thoughts as best as my pitiful skills can manage…

    as of this moment, from your last Comment..i just don’t see what it is you are attempting to say, other than you like Moore and want to vote for him, and that you want your neighbors to babysit your kids

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.weneedmoore.com Kristy Smith

    Franklin, Jefferson, and Washington (I am adding) are your historical figures… Then read Judge Moore’s book. With more information I think that you will realize you and he are very similar.

    Plus, London is on tons of threads but we all need to make sure to mention it for the sake of the innocent that were killed there. Very Sad. Worth mention over and over again.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    first..please don’t assume the right to add to my words..

    i am a very careful parent of them, and choose exactly the ones i want

    second..no, i doubt Moore and i have much to agree on…he broke the Law, defied a court order…all the while he was sitting as an officer of the Court

    now, whle i myself might engage in civil disobedience, i would be on the steps of the police station to take Responsibility for my actions immediately

    both Jefferson and Franklin were deists, NOT theists…and would never have had anything to do with the display of the Commandments, much less of government property…or are you unaware of Franklin’s statements about Jesus? he thought he was a good man, and a wise teacher, but publicly raised doubts about any type of “divinity” involved

    on and on

    might i put it to you that you know nothing about me, and that you might want to spare me any attempt at conversion or evangelizing unless you want to offer equal time?

    c’mon over for a Black Mass, we might be shy a virgin…we can talk about JuJu and Jesus afterwards…over a nice steaming mug of goats blood

    as for London..i do agree, it is horrible…but my Thoughts on the matter reside in the appropriate Thread

    Excelsior!

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala`

    I see all valid sides of the arguements. I am just placing my self in the shoes of the defendent as I once was a defendent myself several years back.

    I am a christian, yet I see that monument has a “sentence of conviction” even before I would step in to the court room.

    Good day.

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala`

    Furthermore what if Judge Roy Moore deemed you an athiest, I no doubt believe that he would throw the book at you….

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala`

    One could say that that slab is marble is a violation of the second commandment as well. It is an engraven image albeit not an image of some diety but an image none the less….

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala`

    Comment #17 is in my opinion the best supportive reason….

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    now that’s something I CAN agree on…if judge moore asked me what faith I followed or if I followed one at all…I’d say, that would be a clear spot where, like on all those TV shows, my lawyer would say…I object your honor!

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala

    The crucifix in the urine. Being a catholic, that certainly puts a strain on my heart, but the artist has his right to his expression….

  • myway

    I don’t see the ten commandments as being a “sentence of conviction”.

    I do believe that this country was, has, and SHOULD always be a Christian nation. The constitution was written by Christians about Christians. It does not work otherwise (which we are certainly finding out lately).

    But, with all that said, I tend to agree with mojo about the statues becoming an idol themselves. It reminds me of the story of the bronze serpent in the Old Testament. It was created as a means of healing from those bitten by vipers. All they had to do was look at it to be healed by God. Many years later, King Hezekiah had to destroy it because the people had begun worshipping the bronze serpent. What was originally good and from God became an idol.

  • Johnny Davis

    An image as referred to in the 10 Commandments is a depiction of the appearance of a person, a creature
    or being.

    An image is not the depiction of words
    or tablets.

  • Johnny Davis

    The Constitution does not contain
    a right to be free form religion.
    That would be a right that would
    require the explusion of relgion
    form the public square and the
    end of freedom of relgion.
    If I try to preach I would violate
    your “freedom form religion.”

    Also, Gonzo do you realize that Roy
    Moore would agree with you that the
    current corporate domination of
    government is wrong and that the
    Homeland Security agency is a threat
    to our rights etc…

  • http://dialeticstorm.blogspot.com mojoala

    An image as referred to in the 10 Commandments is a depiction of the appearance of a person, a creature
    or being?

    No, it just says image, it does not give a definition of image, a graven image is limitless.

    an atheist’s religion is of non belief of any higher power.

  • Sieglinde

    Javert is _NOT_ evil. I’m totally bored of you all who didn’t read the book and didn’t know the musical and refer him as “that evil policeman”. If he were evil, he wouldn’t end as he did!

  • bliffle

    Sieglinde is right, of course. Javert is just an instrument of a senseless system. Perhaps Hugo’s aphorism illustrates his point: “The law, in all it’s majesty, declares that rich man and poor man alike are prohibited from sleeping under bridges.”