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Immigration: Solutions, Not Excuses

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One frailty of man is that he is very adept at finding excuses to justify laziness and irresponsibility. There’s no point helping people because everyone is just out for himself anyway. Why study or work? I mean, no one is going to give me a break. I won’t take care of myself because you’ve got to die of something. We can’t deport 12-20 million illegal aliens.

I could point out that the word “can’t” never used to be in the American vocabulary. I could mention that members of the “can’t” set find it entirely possible to tax 100 million people and then transfer the money in hand-outs to 80 million others. Some of them even aspire to control the health care of 300 million Americans through government. Why, their ambitions just seem to grow with the size of the big government scheme.

There are two truths here. First, if ancient Egyptians could build the pyramids, if ancient Chinese constructed the Great Wall, we can deport any number of invaders and keep them out.

The second truth is that we don’t have to.

The answer is – and these ideas aren’t original, as Michael Savage has espoused them as well – we can get illegal aliens to deport themselves. All we need understand is that man operates based on incentive, on reward and consequence, and devise policy accordingly. I now propose a foolproof five-point plan that would put an end to the invasion of America.

1. Enact laws ensuring that employers who hire illegals will be punished harshly enough to deter the behavior; this will take the illegals’ jobs away.

2. Enact laws prohibiting illegals from receiving any government benefits.

3. Eliminate the standard that confers citizenship on children born to illegals on our soil.

These three measures alone will eliminate the incentive to be here, causing most to return to where they belong. But this is just the removal of the carrot; now we need application of the stick.

4. Enact a law stating that any alien caught on our soil beyond a certain date will be subject to severe criminal penalties and his assets will be seized.

5. Enact a law stating that, in addition, if they are found in the US after that time, they will forevermore be prohibited from entering our nation.

Understand that these measures will so greatly reduce the number of illegals (my guess is by 90 percent) that taking legal action against the lawbreakers who remain will simply be a matter of eliminating a few stragglers.

The beauty of this plan is that it eliminates another excuse: “We’ll never stop illegals from coming here anyway.” Once America has been transformed from a big carrot into a big stick, they’ll stop picking on our vegetable. Border enforcement would still be necessary, but only for the purposes of keeping true miscreants out, people such as terrorists and criminal gangs.

Speaking of vegetables, on Monday I saw Senator Saxby Chambliss rendering another immigration excuse. What’s a Saxby Chambliss, you ask? It’s an illegal alien enabler who was recently trying to mollify some indignant true Americans by waxing fictional. Why, by golly, if we send these people packing, we won’t have anyone to pick our produce, opined he. This will make us dependent on foreign imports, as we are with oil. Got that, stupid?

Well, I’ve got news for you, the Sax is playing us.

As I’ve said before, there are no jobs Americans won’t do, there are only wages Americans won’t work for. The law of supply and demand informs that flooding an economic system with great numbers of low-wage workers causes their value to decrease. If you purge the system of them, however, businesses won’t go belly-up for want of labor. They will simply offer what the remaining, more valuable workers are now worth. I call that a healthy, natural, free market way of spreading the wealth around.

But this is only half the equation. Usually overlooked is that the agricultural industry need be wedded to manual labor no more than the automobile industry must, and this is demonstrated by the many countries that have introduced mechanized harvesting systems which in some measure take the place of human hands. Moreover, robotic systems serving this end have been developed as well, and, although, they’re not perfect, with time and incentive greater sophistication will be achieved.

The bottom line is that the last thing that should worry the country with San Francisco and Greenwich Village is a possible inability to produce fruits and nuts. When the cost of labor exceeds that of mechanization, we’ll go the latter route.

A Chinese proverb states, “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” In 1965, Ted Kennedy and his enablers sold us a culture-rending immigration reform act. When lobbying for the bill, Kennedy said that America wouldn’t be flooded with a million immigrants a year and the demographic composition of the country would not change. Both those assertions proved untrue. In 1986, Ted Kennedy and others promised that if we would just grant amnesty to the 3.4 million invaders on our soil, the borders would be secured and illegal immigration halted. This proved untrue.

Now they sing the same old song. Just be compassionate and reasonable, my fellow Americans, and grant amnesty to the 12-20 million invaders colonizing us, and, you guessed it, we’ll secure the borders and get our house in order.

I don’t know, would you buy a used immigration idea from these men? What do the Chinese say about being fooled a third time?

The immigration bill before the Senate, SB-1348, is a sham. The three million invaders in 1986 have become 12-20 million today and, if we repeat the mistakes of the past, will metastasize into perhaps forty million next time. Of course, by then our sense of national identity will be so eroded that we may not even call them illegal anymore. Why would we in Mexico North?

The plan we must pursue has been laid out in this piece. Politicians who won’t embrace it aren’t looking for solutions, only excuses. And excuses walk.

Tell the politicians: We want solutions, not “shamnesty.” Deport the invaders or next election cycle we’ll deport you. I’m sure we can find some real Americans to fill your very, very, very small shoes.

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About Selwyn Duke

  • skip

    Hear hear to Cobra. Also, Kingfisher lager is served in lots of British Indian restaurants and is delightful. I’ve not tracked it down in Chicago which is a bummer. There’s a new lager in Australia called Blue Tongue which is so good that I’m tempted to become a full-blown alcaholic. Tremendous stuff.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Used to be just Cockneys, Zedd, but English speakers in many parts of the world now use, and invent, rhyming slang.

    I tried to post something with a bit more explanation but I keep getting an “Error: [23] Banned word”. Something must be upsetting the BC spam filter. Sorry! But if you Google it, there’s a wealth of stuff out there on the subject.

  • Zedd


    Is rhyming slag just limited to Cockney speakers or is it used by all Brits.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Rhyming slang. Septic tank = Yank.

    In Australia, usually contracted (as they are wont to do) to “Seppo”.

  • Zedd

    Why are Americans called Septics?

  • Dr Dreadful

    Oh, they’re doing quite well by themselves, Chris. Americans lives in a well of sporting unreality from which I fear they may never emerge.

    Like considering “football” to be a sport in which the only player to actually use his feet is the one who comes on for a few seconds to kick field goals and then goes off again.

    Or their infernal gall in referring to the victors in American sporting competitions as “world champions” – even in sports which other countries actually play, which is a bit rich. The Seppos would do well to remember that in fact, the current basketball world champions are Spain and the baseball world champions are Japan.

    Let them put that in their pipes and smoke it!

  • No pandering to the Septics, Dr D.

    Let them create their own name rather than passing off their tedious variant of Rugby League as anything related to one of the two greatest games of all time! 😉

  • Dr Dreadful

    Rosito, I only use the term “soccer” when differentiating between codes for the benefit of the great unwashed in the Colonies. Of course I know that we who follow the FIFA code are the Chosen Ones!

  • OI! Dreadful!! Less of that soccer crap, it’s football!!! Don’t give in to those Yankees and their nancyboy “sports”!!!!

  • Dr Dreadful

    Stan, you’ve made clear your aversion to soccer and why you prefer “proper” games like rugby.

    Perhaps soccer played like this would be more to your liking?

  • STM

    Sounds a bit like like the mighty North Sydney Bears.

    The greatest Australian rugby league team to never win a premiership (our superbowl) in the modern era, and now – sigh – consigned to the NRL’s dustbin of history where they don’t belong.

    But to their everlasting credit, there was never a nancy-boy pad or helmet in sight.

    Come on you Yanks, toughen up 🙂 – you’re getting soft.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    I was so busy cracking wise that I missed the main point of my comment. The Viqueens didn’t just go to the Superbowl just once. They went FOUR TIMES – AND LOST EACH TIME!!!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    We all have to give Mr. Duke a tip of the hat for providing us his little racist frissons for us to rip off for discussing football and TV.

    Of course, I’m in no shape to play football (of any variety) and I don’t own a TV, so these conversations don’t do me a hell of a lot of good.

    But here’s yer tip of the hat, Selwyn. Now go find yerself a heathen to convert; make sure he is white (you wouldn’t want to dirty up that lovely land of yourn) and he isn’t Jewish (can’t have no Christ-killers, you know). Either that, or find a different topic to opine upon…

    Just a comment about football – American football (sorry, Chris, for talking abut one of those nancy-boy games).

    For over two decades I lived in the land of the Minnesota Viqueens. Priot to my coming there to live they had gone to the Superbowl (that’s a big bowl of Marmalite cookies mushed in milk, Chris – just in case you didn’t know) AND THEY LOST!!!

    That’s why they’re Viqueens and not Vikings. they lost their balls in a bowl of Marmalite cookies mushed in milk.

  • STM

    Yes, that is correct. Which makes me Australian. And my mum was from an Irish family. Most Australians can trace their roots back to the UK or Ireland, some sooner rather than later. Mine is sooner, but I also lived over there for a short time in my 20s. And of course, I really love it. I always have a longing to go back, because it’s just such a good place. The states too. I often think about how it would be if I’d stayed over there. However, we are a bit spoiled in this wonderful country these days, and I don’t think I could comfortably live in the UK or US as a result – not because they are bad, but because of the great life we have here.

    Still, those who do live in the US or UK have cause to be thankful for all the great things they have. We always take these things for granted, and we shouldn’t. They are both great countries, and if I had to choose somewhere else to live, it’d be a close call between thoe two.

  • Zedd


    Didn’t you reveal that you are a Pom one generation removed? Or is my memory playing games with me?

  • STM

    I think he was having a cackle at himself, Zedd, as much as anything. One great thing about the Poms, and one of the things I like about them – they can laugh at themselves (and to be honest, they’ve got a fair bit of ammo:). Aussies like to take the piss out of themselves too, so it must come from our paler-skinned brothers on the other side of the planet.

  • SteveS #88:

    Try installing this Firefox extension. It should take care of your problem.

  • Zedd


    The Doc got you good in #80! FUNNY!

  • STM

    Clavos wrote: “Whaaattt???? You wore a helmet??”

    The bloody poofters made us … they handed me one and said stick this on yer head. I said, “Do I have to”. They said: “Yes, it’s the rules.”

    We might as well have not worn them, however, for all the good they did … mine went in the opposite direction to my body at the first tackle, and very few of us had any clue as to what we were doing. Running around like headless chooks might be an apt description. I daresay, had you been there, you would have had a good giggle.

    But I’m a great believer in not indulging in contempt prior to investigation, and I have also played that abomination Australian football. I drew the line at the tight shorts, but they did make me wear a fetching sleeveless top.

    And I broke my finger catching a high ball in warm up about 1 minute before centre bounce the first time around.

    Since a New South Welshman or a Queenslander can beat any philistine from the heathen southern and western states with one hand tied behind his back, it made no difference. We thumped ’em, much to their shock, and most of us had never played the stupid game before.

  • Thanks for the responses, I understand now. I wasn’t able to competely read his article, that damn google ad overlaps some of each article in Mac OSx/firefox.

  • Zedd


    The veering off topic is intetional. The author of this article spews a great deal of racist rhetoric and has posted other articles which are clearly hateful towards Hispanics. The gentlemen who started the discussion on sports and food were intentionally “dissing” this contributor.

    I joined in because I am a greedy pig ;o) and to express my objections to the hate speech.

    I have been quite vocal about immigration but what this man espouses breaks my heart.

  • Doc,

    I loved the Biblical passage!! GOOD stuff!

  • “The strap on my helmet was broken, the helmet was too big, and half the time I couldn’t see what was going on because my eyes kept disappearing under it. Apart from that, it was all good!”

    Whaaattt???? You wore a helmet??

    What happened to the macho Aussie who wrote this:

    “And not a helmet or a pad to be seen. Come on Yanks, fair dinkum, toughen the fu.k up a bit.”

    Hoist by your own petard, mate, hoist by your own petard…

  • Dr Dreadful

    you’ve had me giggling publicly DD, and seemingly to myself

    Sign of the times, Stan. Thank to the wonders of Bluetooth headsets, laptop computers and wi-fi, one can no longer assume that people who appear to be talking and giggling to themselves in public are nutters.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Additional to STM’s response to Steve:

    If you look around the threads, you’ll see that STM, Zedd, Clavos, zingzing and myself do plenty of serious commenting on the political issues that this section of Blogcritics is supposed to be about.

    However, faced with yet another article by Selwyn Duke on the horrors of illegal immigration (I think it was his third in as many days), there didn’t seem to be much mileage in validating his recycled drivel by commenting on it again. Whatever needed to be said to Mr Duke has all been said before. So (more or less consciously) we turned the thread into an open forum for our own amusement.

    If Mr Duke wants us to discuss his arguments seriously, then he needs to stop sounding like a stuck record. I’ve no idea what his feelings on the matter are since he never revisits his posts, at least not to comment on them.

    So – back to footie (or was it curry?)…

  • STM

    And Ruvy, I think the ex-pats have had their way already. There IS a baseball league. In fact a former Australian cricket captain used to play in it.

    It’s just not as popular, is all. They actually do even play American Football here, and I must confess that I have been roped into playing a few games in the past because I was a rugby league player and one of the fellas on my team was also playing American football in a really low-rent mid-week comp. They needed to make up the numbers, but I suspect my appearance was the equivalent of having two people absent.

    We got smashed, BTW … but not any worse than usual. The strap on my helmet was broken, the helmet was too big, and half the time I couldn’t see what was going on because my eyes kept disappearing under it. Apart from that, it was all good!

  • STM

    Lol … you’ve had me giggling publicly DD, and seemingly to myself – which always leads to raised eyebrows. The last time that happened was on a rugby site I also frequent, and the virtual conversation revolved around someone’s alleged predilection for goats (a New Zealander, I believe).

    Ha … a witch taking a dump, eh? Fair dinkum, what a classic. Give yourself an upper cut Doc, you’re a dead-set legend.

    And SteveS … there’s method to our madness in regards to soccer and rugby. We were hoping to render neutral the extreme right-wing musings of one S.Duke. Problem was, as usual, we just got a bit carried away …

  • Dr Dreadful

    Interestingly, I just looked up ‘philistine’ in my Hebrew-English lexicon and I must say, it is amazing the way the meaning of words changes over time. Apparently, the first known appearance of the word ‘philistine’, in the original version of Deuteronomy (excised from later editions of the Old Testament), is in a passage which runs as follows:

    “Cursed is he who desireth vindaloo sauce and chips with every conceivable food, from caviar to toenail clippings. Hast thou ever wondered why the Children of Israel have such an extensive list of unclean foods? Well, now thou knowest. For the philistine poureth vindaloo sauce copiously over his steamed clams and demandeth chips with his medallion of pork. And Lo, he smothereth salt and vinegar thereon. And we rent our garments and wept, saying, We cannot eat this muck, for the philistine’s final surviving tastebud hath given up the ghost and there is no telling what horror combination of foods he might come up with next. Let us cast him into the wilderness before he doth any more damage.

    “And they cast out the philistine from their midst. And he and his tastebud wandered for forty days and forty nights in the wilderness. And at the end of that time, he settled in a land beyond the sea. And the land was shaped like a witch taking a dump. And the tastebud saw that it was good.”

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Just thought that I’d note that the advert above this comment is still about immigration to America. The same idiots who promote the Green Card Lottery have a thumbnail of a smiling young lady having won the Green Card.

    Stan, being as you live in a nation that also recruits immigrants (like Israel does), I’m surprised you do not advertise Australia more heavily in your many comments. Get enough Yanks to move there and you may see what we are beginning to see here – a baseball league!

  • SteveS

    I tried to read all the comments but my eyes glazed over. I tried, really I did. Somewhere along the line we go from illegal immigration to British football.

    I was told tonight, something someone heard on talk radio. I didn’t hear it, so you are getting it passed on down the line and it may not be specific. Someone on talk radio said that there is no powerful nation in the world that survived without slave labor.

    I don’t necessarily agree with it, as it applies to immigration, but I thought of it, when I read your comment that there are no jobs Americans won’t do, only wages they won’t work for.

    I live in Salinas, California, the salad bowl capital of the world. There are fields everywhere, including within 100 feet of my house. I know a bit about working in the fields. No, I haven’t done so myself, but it is all around me.

    Most of the work is dangerous. The illegals walk up and down the rows swinging blades to cut the crops. These blades swing within inches of their feet and often someone gets permanently disabled by a blade swinging too far. Also, many of them spend 12 hours a day on their knees picking the crops. This leads to arthritis and disability at about 40 years young. Back problems? The clinic is full and busy constantly.

    You could pay 50 dollars an hour to work in the fields and I wouldn’t do it, nor would any legal citizen out here.

  • STM

    Probably is, y’know. I suppose I could’ve thrown a couple of other words in there but discretion is the better part of discretion, I think …

    Besides, Doc and Rosey seem like decent fellas – well, for pommies 🙂

  • STM writes,

    “philistine pommy bastards”

    Isn’t that redundant? :>)

  • STM

    And I meant to add here for the benefit of any philistine pommy bastards: SERVE CHILLED.

    You know, very cold!

  • STM

    try one of the asian brews doc, from singapore, indo or thailand. designed for chilli. tiger, bintang (indonesia) or singha (thai). should be available in boutique bottleshops over there. i know tiger is. all three go down a treat with hot food. failing that, try crown lager from oz, which is also available there (typing one handed here, vietnamese pork baguette with fresh chilli in hand for lunch, thus no caps, and dreaming of cold beer). bintang is good, a bit in the style of a heineken, for obvious reasons, and the other two are very crisp and refreshing. love tiger. all three also pack required punch.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Most tandoori restaurants also have a nice Indian lager called Cobra, which is very smooth and refreshing with a good chicken madras. Haven’t been able to find it in the States, more’s the pity.

  • Dr Dreadful

    STM mentioned: chips with vindaloo sauce

    Yes… Asian restaurateurs are shrewd businessmen (usually men, anyway) and were quick to recognize the drunken Brit’s deep genetically-coded need for chips with everything. It works out OK: since in Britain the “Indian” restaurants and takeaways are mostly staffed by Bangladeshis, the sense of culinary national pride is not offended by such a menu item.

    Imagine the chef’s fury if a diner in a French restaurant asked for chips and curry sauce with their boeuf en brochette. A tandoori chef, however, wouldn’t bat an eyelid.

    Then Zedd got stomachs a-rumbling with: the Jamaican cuisine slams.

    Mmm… curried goat from a street vendor at the Notting Hill Carnival. One of the world’s great gastronomic experiences. Yummy!

  • STM

    Not to mention the after-pub classic: chips with vindaloo sauce (a pommy specialty), or, as DD loves, a nice kebab with garlic and chilli sauce (also available in Australia). Both do wonders the next day too, cleaning all the alcohol and toxins out of the body. EEk!

  • Zedd


    I forgot, I could totally fatten up on Shepard’s pie, meat pies, spoon fulls of marmalade, all sentimental foods. Okay I take it back. It is totally possible to pig out and plump up in GB.
    Also the Jamaican cuisine slams.

  • bliffle

    Yeah, that Aussie football is great! Non-stop action, no commercials, even good announcers. It’s shown locally on “Mhz Worldview”, some kind of ad-hoc network, on a smalltime UHF channel here. And those guys are real all round athletes, not meat automatons.

  • STM

    I rest my case with with this video of Sonny Bill Williams from Sydney’s Canterbury Bulldogs club, and he’s not even regarded as one of the most skilled or toughest players in the Aussie NRL, which is a step down anyway from State of Origin. He doesn’t go too bad though ….

    And not a helmet or a pad to be seen. Come on Yanks, fair dinkum, toughen the fu.k up a bit.

  • STM

    Zedd: “Many grocery stores now have British foods in a small section like they do Asian foods”

    How appropriate. *sniggers*

    I have a joke cookbook of Great British Recipes. It is 50 blank pages.

  • Dr Dreadful

    What are Brits getting fat on?

    Beats me, as we weren’t all that bad when I left six years ago to emigrate to the Land of Lard. I think a lot of it may have to do with the increasing preponderance of American-style fast food, coupled with a more sedentary lifestyle which is a new learned habit: a sad trend is for schools to cut back on PE and sell their playing fields and gyms to developers to get more money for academics.

    Indian food is the bomb. When I did amateur dramatics, going out for a curry after the show was a little tradition we had. We usually did runs of nine nights, Thursday through the following Saturday: the first Friday was curry night at a lovely little place called Rajduth Tandoori, about four doors down from the theatre. Happy days.

    Fish and chips is still served on paper, but no longer on newspaper, alas – something to do with the printer’s ink (maybe, possibly, on a slightly humid night at the full moon) being poisonous. I’m sure we’re all safer now, but it somehow doesn’t taste the same. And yes, the bits that stuck to the paper were the greasiest and the best!

  • STM

    Clav wrote: “my wife, who had pronounced Caipirinhas as tasting “just like lemonade,” was drinking them as if they actually were while we waited.”

    This is precisely what happened to me the first time I went to an old-style pub in rural England and a few mates went up and got some pints off what we call the wood in Oz – a wooden barrel operated by a hand pump.

    I remember (just) commenting that the beer tasted weak, and a bit like lolly-water, but enjoyable nevertheless, and especially since it came in dirty great pint pots and we were sitting in front of a big, roaring log fire.

    After three beers (downed far too quickly, methinks), it was my turn to shout a round. I went to get up and my knees started to buckle, and I fell over and narrowly missed being consumed by the flames.

    Lolly-water. Too quick to judge, I was. They played an old pommy Jedi mind trick on me.

    Because when it came to drinking flat, pommy beer, I was not a Jedi yet.

  • Zedd

    Actually I know that soccer can be dangerous. Just being a smarty pants in order to make a point. In this country soccer is bland too straight forward. If we had some showmanship, style and flare, the sport would take off. I think we need more brothers to get into the sport, it would take off.

  • Zedd


    What are Brits getting fat on? I understand that GB has the second fattest population in the world. I mean I cant see myself gorging on fish sticks and peas. Its hard to take Gordon Ramsey seriously because of that old reputation.

    However give me Indian cooking and real fish and chips and I would be as large as they come in no time. Do they still serve it on paper? When I was a child, it always seemed that it was best when it stuck to the paper.

    Many grocery stores now have British foods in a small section like they do Asian foods.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Which was the whole idea, Stan – see my comments #4 and #13. (I did have to restrain Clavos from going for the jugular, though.)

    Am I a master tactician or what? 😉

  • STM

    BTW, I think by gibbering on about whose sport is best/worst, we have consigned Selwyn’s ultra right-wing claptrap to the dustbin of history, where it belongs. The Duke of Puke.

  • STM

    Yes, I agree with DD, you do get some Barry Crockers of injuries in soccer, specially around the limbs – all of ’em. Also, believe it or not, head and collarbone injuries are very common. At the top level, getting the flesh stripped from your legs and ankles by opponents’ studs isn’t that uncommon either.

    However, it still doesn’t alter the fact: rugby players if they are so inclined wear very light minimal padding on the chest and shoulders, whilst NFL players cover themselves in the stuff. The games are similar, the physical contact possibly even harder in rugby league, so I can only draw one conclusion: American Football players (like Australian Football players and soccer players) are a bunch of nancy-boys.

    The best bit is having the two separate teams in each side, one for attack and the other for defence. Wouldn’t want anyone to get tired from too much tackling, would we? 🙂

  • Dr Dreadful

    Clavos said: Caipirinhas can be deadly, but they are great…

    And my local BevMo stocks six different kinds of cachaça, so I’m a happy bunny.

  • Zedd


    Its only because you don’t understand Amfootball.

    Running the ball requires a great deal of skill. Yes dribbling requires a great deal of coordination, however there is a variety of skill that is required for Amfootball.

    I haven’t gotten to where I understand rugby. It seems disorganized and goofy from my vantage point. I’ll have to do a study of it and see… Especially since SA is pretty good. I only keep up to see how they are doing. However since I live with all girls, including the dog, we are liberated from sports. Whew!!

    My first husband worked hard all week and spent Saturdays watching sports from morning till night with his pals. I served a lot of Mexican food and escaped without notice to shop (my athletic event… Talk about coordination and finesse).

  • Dr Dreadful

    The worse that happens in standard football is a shin kick

    Tell that to David Busst, who broke his leg so badly during a game that he almost had it amputated, never played again and even the opposing team’s goalie needed counseling, so grotesque was the injury.

  • STM

    Zedd, we were comparing it to rugby (a man’s sport), not that Nancy-boy soccer game where players attack each other with handbags.

    However, in terms of genuine overall sporting skill, the nancy-boys probably win hands down.

  • Zedd


    There is nothing girly about American football. I know standard football well and American football is certainly more aggressive and punitive. Don’t forget, the defense’s sole goal is to physically destroy the offense, literally. The padding is there for a very real reason. Those guys go into a frightening trance state in order to play that sport. If testosterone could be on testosterone, that would be American football. Remember, we are talking about abnormally large individuals who are paid millions to destroy their opponent. However it is far less exciting than standard football. Also no fights in the stands, outside the stadium and in the neighborhoods…. I suppose the pansy factor would apply to the spectators. They just sit on their couches with a beer.

    The worse that happens in standard football is a shin kick, woooew brutal…. (snicker)

  • During the 70s, I worked for a Brasilian company and traveled there frequently. My wife was often able to accompany me, and on one of her first trips (to Rio), I introduced her to Caipirinhas in the lobby bar of old Hotel Nacional, out on Avenida Niemeyer in Sao Conrado.

    We were waiting for a Brasilian friend and were going to dinner with him and his wife. As Brasilians are wont to do, he was late, and my wife, who had pronounced Caipirinhas as tasting “just like lemonade,” was drinking them as if they actually were while we waited.

    When my friend arrived, I introduced them, and my wife excused herself to go freshen up before driving to my friend’s house. We were sitting on bar stools at the bar itself; she slid (literally) off her stool, took a about a half step, and just sort of collapsed onto the floor.

    It’s hard to describe effectively online, but it was very funny at the time.

    Caipirinhas can be deadly, but they are great…

  • Dr Dreadful

    I was last over there about 18 months ago. (Too long. Who’s got the Qantas phone number?) Don’t know about the 24/7 channel, but I do remember there being an Aussie rules game on somewhere in between episodes of Kath and Kim. (Where the heck was I? I think Launceston.) It was between the Perth Wassnames and the Medium Coast Something-Or-Others. I think Perth won by a score of 397 (68 (or 202 using the Duckworth-Lewis method)) to 384 (-77½ x 240). Whatever that means… All I know is that the defence in Aussie rules has as thankless and pointless a job as the goalie in handball.

    Isn’t Queensland the hotbed of League? Or am I thinking of somewhere else?

  • STM

    DD wrote: “So basically anywhere except NSW and QLD, then. What a parochial chap you are, Stan”

    Lol. Not even sure about Queensland Doc … most of my family are Queenslanders. I get showered in peanuts every year during State of Origin and the annual Qld-NSW super 14 game. They are all mad. Must be the sun up there. Gone troppo, for sure.

    But come on, Doc … you know what I’m talking about. When you go to these places and start talking about sport, that’s all they fu.king talk about. It gets really tedious. That’s why I love to rev the bastards up. You’d think there was nothing else going on sportwise on the planet.

    I don’t know how long ago you were here, but there was a free 24-hour channel showing nothing but Australian Football games. All the games from the round, “great” grand finals, stuff from the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. Whose shorts were tightest, who got the best nut-tweak injury, which club’s sleeveless tops best matched their handbags, etc. Zzzzzzzzzzz

    Better than mogadon.

  • Dr Dreadful

    #49: Sorry, Stan, missed that one as I was occupied with being a wiseass composing #50.

    England were playing Brazil. Now before you burst out laughing… England were actually winning courtesy of a John Terry header until second half injury time, when Brazil’s Diego sneaked in a last-gasp equalizer.

    We are never, ever going to beat those buggers.

    However, I can forgive Brazil anything since I went there last November and discovered the caipirinha: the Drink of the Gods.

  • Dr Dreadful

    STM ranted, in reference to players of the Australian code of football: most are Nancy boys from Victoria/Tas/SA/WA/NT.

    So basically anywhere except NSW and QLD, then. What a parochial chap you are, Stan.

    His blood pressure then dipped to relatively safe levels, and he added, regarding the padding used in the American code of football: It is more a preventative thing.

    Exactly. Americans will sue you as soon as look at you. Works out a lot cheaper to run a football league if you don’t have to call a timeout to go to court every five minutes.

  • STM

    DD: “17:51PM — Christopher Rose: Ah. Must be full time. That was a bit of a sickener at the end there, wasn’t it?”

    Who was playing?

  • STM

    DD wrote: “Re: Football, selected lethal versions of: I suspect that the reason for the high casualty rate in American football as opposed to rugby is the aforementioned forward pass. In rugby you don’t get attacking players charging headlong into the other territory ahead of the ball”.

    Doc, you are wrong. The collision aspect on the high ball or bomb (equivalent of the forward pass) is identical. In both rugby codes, you can be running ahead of the ball provided you were behind or almost level with the kicker before the bomb went up. Kickers put it high to give the hang time in the air, but the receivers are running full tilt for the line, make no mistake.

    It’s a standard tactic, used a lot in rugby league both in the UK and Australia and in rugby from say the standard of Super 14 or Heineken Cup up to Five Nations/Tri Nations level.

    Also, Doc, your argument negates the lack of those kinds of injuries in Australian Football, where there is no offside and the entire aim of the game seems to be for 6ft 8in blokes dripping with muscles to use each other’s kidneys as step ladders to bring down the high ball (even though most are Nancy boys from Victoria/Tas/SA/WA/NT in sleeveless tops who should be playing a proper game like rugby).

    I remain firm on this: the use of padding and helmets in American football is way overdone. It really detracts from the game because it slows players up for a start and reduces peripheral vision. It is more a preventative thing, and I humbly submit that there are just as many injuries in RU and RL than there were in NFL before the padding came in. I suspect too that the padding doesn’t make a lot of difference except for contact shoulder injuries – collarbones, for instance.

  • Dr Dreadful

    17:51PM — Christopher Rose: Ah. Must be full time. That was a bit of a sickener at the end there, wasn’t it?

  • OK, not for the first time, our virtual pal Ruvy let his excitement get the better of his coding skills and left out a closing bracket on one of his tags. I have fixed that so there should be no more weirdness – for the moment, lol.

  • Dr Dreadful

    #42, #43: It’s something to do with the computer you’re on. The comments are bolded and underlined on my computer at work, but aren’t on the ones at home.

    The phenomenon seemed to start, for some reason, after Ruvy bolded and underlined a word or phrase in one of his comments.


    (The bolding and underlining, not Ruvy. Just to be clear.)

  • Dr Dreadful


    1. Re. Heinz baked beans: There’s a little gift shop in our local fake Wild West downtown that sells them, among other hard-to-come-by British groceries (for a huge mark-up, of course). The owner is American but is a bit of an Anglophile, and likes to import whatever he can find over there that looks tasty and/or interesting. There are little places like that all over the country if you know where to look: try ‘British groceries’ on Google or Yahoo (if you can figure out how to get to the Directory section, which used to be the most useful thing about Yahoo but is now hidden away from all but the most determined). There are also some online British grocery stores which can send you stuff via mail order. Or there’s always Cost Plus – dunno if you have that store in your part of the world.

    As far as the black pudding is concerned: my Dad used to love that stuff… but fried pig’s blood? Yeeucchh. Not surprised you put on 30lbs if you were shoveling in that kind of food every day. Historically, the full English breakfast was consumed by working-class men who spent 16 hours a day toiling down the mine, in the fields or at a hundred other physically intense jobs. Their high-calorie diet gave them energy to do their backbreaking work. It works, too: when on walking holidays in Snowdonia I would always partake of the full Welsh breakfast (same as the full English, but served on china with pictures of sheep on them!). I would then go stomping up mountains all day without even needing lunch: in fact I wouldn’t get hungry again until I came down in the evening.

    2. Re: Football, selected lethal versions of: I suspect that the reason for the high casualty rate in American football as opposed to rugby is the aforementioned forward pass. In rugby you don’t get attacking players charging headlong into the other territory ahead of the ball, because to do so puts you offside. So although rugby is a passing, running game, you’ve usually got the protection of your team-mates or can only be tackled from behind, which isn’t as damaging.

  • Nancy, they aren’t on my computer. Anybody else?

  • Nancy

    How come all the comments on this thread are underlined & bold-faced?

  • zingzing

    stm–i’m sure the only reason that i (and millions of other americans) don’t immediately switch over and become rugby fans is purely because we don’t understand it and never get to see it.

    but bones are bones, and your rugby players don’t have some super-strength bones, so if they aren’t getting broken in horrible, life-threatening ways, then there must be something about rugby that just doesn’t produce the same kind of danger that american football does. without pads, people were dying on the field. i don’t know why. it wasn’t because they were american, if that’s what you want to think. have you ever seen an open-field hit on a forward pass? it can get disgusting.

  • zingzing

    dreadful–it’s the beans (heinz! in ketchup!) and the tea (can’t find me any pg tips… just some shitty “english breakfast” stuff…) that are hard to find. a friend of mine has a step father that is british somehow. he imports heinz beans and pg tips. i now know where to get the pg at. but not the heinz. and what’s english breakfast without heinz?

    also, i like black sausage. so…

    plus, that shit is bad for you. so bad. when i lived in england i weighed 30 pounds more than i do now.

  • STM

    Fair dinkum, Zing … wide receiver meets linebacker blah blah blah fu.king blah 🙂 Wingers and centres in rugby (or rugby league) smash into big forwards all the time going up for the high ball. I reckon the weights would be about the same. Padding, helmets … nah. Those boys are really tough bastards 🙂

    You should watch the State of Origin rugby league games on cable over there between Queensland and NSW for a heads up. I know they’re on every year in some of the sports bars. I know it’s what you grow up with, but seriously, American football is a bit of a snore-a-thon (like soccer and Australian Football), although I do appreciate the athleticism required.

    And cricket’s not a fast game? Getting smacked around for hours on end by a small heavy wooden ball travelling at the speed of an Exocet missile doesn’t constitute fast? Geez. Also, it was once your national sport. You were once on the right track, and then deviated you poor buggers.

    You should have stuck with cricket and rugby – as there are benefits to playing English sports BTW. You get to beat the poor bastards all the time.

    It’s unlikely you’d have beaten us, but you can’t have everything …

  • Dr Dreadful

    zingzing said: “I miss full English breakfast.”

    Where there’s a will, zing. Costco has some damn good sausages that they’ll sell to you in exchange for a few pictures of Mr Washington and a weird pyramid with an eye on it. American bacon is too thin and crispy but we’ll work with it. Eggs are eggs anywhere. So are fried tomatoes. Baked beans are more of a challenge – you Yanks just don’t have a clue, I’m afraid… however, there are numerous British grocery stores dotted around the country if you know where to look. Add grilled or fried mushrooms, fried bread or toast, and a clunking great mug of tea with milk and lots of sugar. All weighing in at under 7,000 calories and will set you up for the whole day. Lovely!

  • zingzing

    well, i’ve never found myself lip to tooth with an english boy. they do have a bad diet. too much sugar in their tea. too much grease on their chips (ohhhh… so fuggin good…) and too many fry-ups…

    hrm. the diet is bad. true. but the breakfast… so damn wonderful. i miss full english breakfast.

  • “they got some ugly girl teeth over there. for shame.”

    Bad boy teeth, too.

    It stems from the bad diet, which is a result of the crappy cuisine.

  • zingzing

    ahh, chris. sports are sports, and some are better than others. you like yours, and i’ll like mine (although i must say that i like the one you like best just as much as you like it, so whatever).

    unlike rugby, the skill sets involved in american football demand different body types. a 185 pound wide receiver meeting up with a 350 pound linebacker is not a pretty sight without pads. the reason why the pads were introduced is not for a lack of toughness in the spirit of the american players… but because the spine can break. and there were many broken spines. and dead people. just the way it happened. so now they have to wear pads. no one likes it.

    as for understanding “gridiron,” all you have to know is that it is NOT RUGBY. that’s like complaining about ping pong because it’s not tennis. nope, it’s not. different game.

    no, baseball is not a fast-paced game. neither is chess. neither, as i understand it, is test cricket. not that i understand test cricket.

    if our games are based on english girls games, send some of your english girls over here to play. make sure they see the dentist first. do you have dentists over there? they got some ugly girl teeth over there. for shame.

    what exactly is your definition of “sporting?”

  • zingzing: you ought to stick to writing about music cos you clearly know nothing about sport. The only reason we don’t like your American “sports” is that they’re not sporting and they are girlie games!

    There’s no such thing as “our version of football”, it’s just football and is played the same way all over the world, including in the USA.

    I didn’t say “we english created those sports yeahs and yeahs ago and gave them to our women, chortle, chortle”, I just pointed out that all your main sports are based on English girls games, apart from Gridiron, which is based on Rugby League. That’s just history mate, so don’t have a big baby tantrum if you don’t like it!

    As to tryinmg to understand Gridfiron, what’s to know? One team has four attempts to move the ball a massive ten yards and, if they fail, they give the ball to the other team to try the same unambitious manoeuvre. And they’re padded up nancy boys too! Boring and wimpy – Ner Ner!

    I tried to follow your thrilling explanation of baseball but fell asleep halfway through. When I woke up, nothing had changed; you were still droning on and Baseball was still boring.

    I’ll grant you that Rugby League, which I was raised on, has become boring, mostly on account of having introduced that US-style rule of handing the ball over.

    Rugby Union is a much more exciting and dangerous game, with 30 people alternating between beating the crap out of each other and a fast, thrilling passing game played at speed without nancyboy shoulder pads.

    Sorry you can’t handle the truth about your so-called sports but it’s all true whether you like it or not…

  • STM

    Yes, I love that show too Doc. My youngest daughter got me onto it, and we’ve had many hours of hilarity watching it on cold Saturday mornings in winter (well, I say cold. Probably not really). It’s on MTV here. I love the voice-overs. The Japs really are a strange mob. Fair-dinkum … I love the concept whereby to mount a scientific study of whales, you have to eat ’em.

  • Dr Dreadful

    zing2 quoth: it stays that way until the batter figures out the strategy or gets lucky.

    You’ve obviously never watched our local Triple-A team, the Fresno Grizzlies. I don’t think a Grizzlies batter has ever actually managed to make contact with the ball. People don’t go to watch the game but to get drunk on “Thirsty Thursday”.

    STM saith: Cricket was in fact once the summer sport of the US until the ruling body (based, of course in England) was formed and decided that only Commonwealth nations could play internationally.

    Although in actual fact, the annual cricket match between the USA and Canada is the oldest international sporting fixture in the world. Bet you knew that but weren’t telling.

    STM also saith: if [Australian football is] so fucking good, how come no-one else has caught on after all these years.

    Actually, there was a brief flurry of interest in Aussie Rules in Britain about 20 years ago, just after Channel Four began broadcasting and started looking around for all kinds of offbeat sports to try and popularize. It led eventually to an actual national footie league which I believe is still operating, although populated mostly, of course, by expats from Vic and SA.

    Another obscure sport Channel Four plugged for a while was kabaddi, a bizarre exercise in ritual masochism from India, which involves an attacker holding his breath and muttering ‘kabaddi’ over and over again while trying to cross the opposing team’s defensive line without being tagged.

    Now that I’m in the US and have cable, my own personal favorite is MXC, a Japanese version of It’s a Knockout with rescripted comedy voiceovers which bear little to no resemblance to what’s actually happening on screen. Has to be seen to be believed, like most TV from Japan.

  • STM

    Clav: Basketball is quite popular here, but has about the same level of interest as soccer, which really makes it a second-tier sport. I never liked it much until my son started playing it as summer sport at school because his attention span while perfect for an 80-minute game of rugby didn’t extend to five or six hours of cricket on a Saturday. I find it quite exciting to watch live, and we are both fans these days. He is actually a really good player (of both sports) and covers rugby and basketball for one of the newspapers here.

    However, baseball, while I unsderstand it is popular in the Americas and Japan, is a third-tier sport here and American football hardly rates any interest. Hockey, naturally, since this place is a bit short on snow and ice, is almost unklnown although there are small leagues for all these things.

    The mass interest sports remain, however, Rugby Union, Rugby League (the 13-man derivative), cricket, and that dreadful, sickening abomination, Australian Rules Football (a game designed for girly-men from the southern and western states) 🙂

  • “The thing with most of those US sports, though, is that no-one’s really interested in them outside the US.”

    Actually, mate that would have been much closer to the truth if you had written “The thing with most of those US sports, though, is that no-one’s really interested in them outside the Americas“.

    Baseball is very popular in the Spanish Caribbean (even Cuba!), and (American) football is followed very closely in Mexico, Venezuela (which also follows baseball), and Colombia, as well as most central American countries.

    Baseball is also a big deal in Japan and South Korea, too, for obvious reasons.

    Basketball is less popular.

  • STM

    Zing zing. Here’s the truth. American football in fact was developed from Rugby by Walter Camp who decided to disband the tight five and introduce a defensive and offensive line of scrimmage at the set piece. A well-known US president also apparently insisted on some rule changes to make it safer, which is also where the forward pass comes from. In turn, rugby was not a purely English game – it was developed from a combination of a game played at Rugby School and traditional catch-pass-run-tackle Maori ball sports transplanted by the British colonisers from NZ.

    Cricket was in fact once the summer sport of the US until the ruling body (based, of course in England) was formed and decided that only Commonwealth nations could play internationally. The US thereafter quite rightly decided to shove it right up their bums and baseball became the national summer sport. But cricket ain’t a game for girly men, either. You can actually bowl at the batter’s body, and getting smacked in the head/chest/arm/wrist/etc for hours on end by a hard wooden ball bouncing off the ground at 95mph in front of your face isn’t much of a picnic.

    Soccer, however, is a girly man’s game – these days.

    The thing with most of those US sports, though, is that no-one’s really interested in them outside the US. I use the same argument I use when idiots from the heathen, philistine southern and western states of Oz who like Australian Football are trying to argue the toss about how much better “their game” is than rugby (which IS a genuine game of strategy): that is, if it’s so fucking good, how come no-one else has caught on after all these years.

    The one sport that totally baffles me is American football. A stop-start snore-a-thon that seems to me like a bunch Nancy boys all dressed up in padding in case someone tackles them too hard.

    I can’t for the life of me understand why you need one team for attack and the other for defence. What’s that about – in case everyone gets too tired? Forward passing, no kicking in general play, tackling blokes without the ball. Baffling.

    It is marginally better than Australian Football and I watch it when I can’t get any rugby or rugby league, and I thought OK, maybe I’m missing all the subtle nuances. Then I realised: there aren’t any. It’s just a pack of over-paid, puffed up boofheads in sheilas’ shoulder pads and 1960s motorcycle helmets bumping into each other 🙂

  • zingzing

    oh, bah, dreadful. it’s a one-on-one game between the batter and the pitcher, with the catcher calling the strategy and the pitcher trying his best to deliver, while the batter tries to figure out that strategy. it stays that way until the batter figures out the strategy or gets lucky, and then it’s up to the fielders to be faster than the batter (now the runner) is. if the runner makes it, a whole other level of strategy (base-running) gets involved, which the pitcher has to pay attention to. as the runners add up, the strategy becomes more and more complex, both for the pitcher (who has to watch the runners and make sure they don’t pick up to big a lead) and for the batter, who now has to not only get to base, but place the ball somewhere where the runners can advance.

    it’s all strategy. how you pitch to individual batters, how the manager lines up the batters to exploit left and right-handed pitchers, where you place your fielders to plug up common holes where an x-handed batter will hit against an x-handed pitcher, etc.

    once you figure it out, it’s very complex. interesting really. a game you can really inspect closely. i used to hate it. thought it was boring. as i gain more patience, i come to appreciate its beauty more.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Far as I can make out, baseball is basically just a game of catch between two guys with oversized gloves, while a guy with a big stick and nine other guys stand around and watch.

  • zingzing

    chris… we’ve all been over this before. you know as well as the rest of us that you don’t like basketball, baseball, hockey and football (american, fine) because you pasty english white fucks are no good at them.

    i like your version of football just fine, so don’t get started on that. i don’t really get rugby, as it looks chaotic and like it lacks strategy. i’m sure there is some. whatever.

    but don’t reduce our sports (and most of these sports are not just american, so fuck off with that shit) to some “we english created those sports yeahs and yeahs ago and gave them to our women, chortle, chortle” bullshit. it just makes you look like an idiot.

    and i know you’re no idiot. american football is not rugby. there are many more rules that are vastly different. to appreciate american football, don’t try to see it as rugby. look at it as it is. 90,000 of your (former) countrymen will be doing so next season in london. as i hear it, the 40,000 initial tickets sold in less than 90 minutes. shrug. someone over there likes it.

    basketball is also an interesting sport, although i much prefer the college game. much more team oriented at that point. hockey is canadian, so go fuck with them about it. also, england SUCKS at it. can’t take the punishment and their feets get cold, i suppose.

    baseball may just be the best game on the planet (although i have to place soccer and pingpong on the same level). if you can throw a ball 90 miles per hour with devastating accuracy and deception, you go right ahead. can’t? aww… i have more respect for pitchers than any other position in sports. fucking marvelous skill.

    as for selwyn duke and his silly little ideas, whatever. this is about sports now. immigration is so old.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Just thought I’d note this for you all. The advert right on top of this comment box has the Stars & Stripes and two words in big red letters GREEN CARD.

    ‘Nuff said…

  • Dr Dreadful

    Chris #21:

    Yeah, promotion and relegation is the lifeblood of football – adds an extra layer of interest than simply going to the match every week and hoping your team will win. The pyramid system in England is especially great because in theory (even if only in theory) you can start a park team with a bunch of your mates and with enough hard work, money, support and luck, eventually make your way all the way up to the Premiership.

    I can’t believe they’re doing away with promotion and relegation in rugby league. Stupid idea – I wouldn’t blame those who support a team stuck outside the Super League at the end of next season if they decided what was the point and stopped going.

    League seems to be administered by a bunch of drooling demented morons anyway. Can’t even organize their World Cup by the sound of it.

  • Alec

    re: After some study, I have to conclude that the majority of the blame for the illegal immigrant situation lies entirely with employers & most especially big business.

    Every business, big and small, benefits from illegal alien labor, but people always want to point the finger at someone else. One of the things that amuses me is that conservatives like to blame the current immigration bill on Ted Kennedy or other liberals, but the irony is that even as a lot of ordinary Republicans have been angered over immigration policies and have cut back on donating to flip-flopping politicians, contributions from business have increased and the GOP simply gives the finger to the “little guy.”

    In Southern California, there are affluent Orange County cities, the supposed heartland of the Reagan GOP, where illegal immigrant day labor sites are ubiquitous. Here, and throughout the region, it is not just corporations hiring illegal immigrants, but little guys hiring workers to do work on their homes or their rental property. Practically every restaurant and coffee shop employs illegal immigrants. Upper middle class women in Palos Verdes, Brentwood and other upscale areas hire illegal immigrant women to clean their homes and take care of their children, and never pay the proper amount of employment taxes, and rarely pay fair wages.

    A church near me is being extensively remodeled. The majority of the workers are illegal immigrants. But since the site shows a big sign with the name of the contractor, any government agency interested in seriously cracking down on illegal immigrant labor could do so in a nanosecond. But everyone looks the other way.

    RE: As usual, Dubya is only now trying to address the issue; he spent the whole first term ignoring it….

    Oddly enough, Bush has been consistently anti-worker and pro-illegal immigration from the first days of his administration. He has consistently called for guest-worker programs and constantly pushes the big lie that these workers are needed because there are supposedly jobs that Americans won’t do.

    The amazing thing is that Republican true believers have given Bush a pass on this from the beginning and still scramble to find ways to excuse his economic betrayal of the American people.

    The immigration farce continues.

  • Nancy

    After some study, I have to conclude that the majority of the blame for the illegal immigrant situation lies entirely with employers & most especially big business. Lack of enforcement by the government has been directly at the behest of those corporations big enough to buy their local senator or congressmaggot, or even the presidential pimp himself. As usual, Dubya is only now trying to address the issue; he spent the whole first term ignoring it, determined it would go away if he did so, because those who own him demanded he do nothing, so they could evade the rightful employment taxes they should have been paying on their ill-gotten, illegal, virtual slave labor. And that’s exactly what it amounts to: virtual slavery, since these people can’t afford to demand wages if they are unfairly withheld or underpaid or even not paid at all. One of the commonest complaints of illegals is that they are routinely cheated out of rightful wages, even as pitiful as these may be, by greedy & unscrupulous employers. These employers not only cheat their illegal employees, they cheat the government of rightful taxes, & they cheat every single taxpaying US citizen as well, because we – the taxpaying citizens – end up having to foot the bill for the taxes not levied or collected.

    I suspect if the pressure were entirely put on the employers’ end, illegal immigration would dry up tomorrow. The wrong people are getting the blame. It’s the illegal, cheating employers we need to hang out to dry, but good.

  • Against my better judgement, I can’t help adding to Dr Dreadful’s #17 that all American “sports” are for wimps.

    American “Football”, which ought to be called American Rugby, is played by a bunch of nancy boys with bigger shoulder pads than the entire cast of Dallas.

    The land of the free and the brave is so afraid of competition that they don’t even have relegation of the bottom teams at the end of the season to allow some new clubs in. Talk about sterile!

    Basketball and Baseball are boring versions of English girls games called Netball and Rounders. Hockey again is a game for girls, usually schoolgirls with navy blue panties, lol.

    Gotta disagree with the doc on one point though, Rugby Union is a far better game than the stop-start, hand the ball over madness that rugby league and American rugby share.

  • RJ


    This is a serious issue. There are actual workable solutions other than a blanket amnesty. Let’s pursue them!

  • Alec

    RE: 1. Enact laws ensuring that employers who hire illegals will be punished harshly enough to deter the behavior; this will take the illegals’ jobs away.

    There are sufficient laws on the books already. They are not enforced. Business interests, unions (especially in the construction industry) and various liberal and conservative activist groups make sure that these laws are not enforced. The Bush Administration periodically executes sham immigration stings to mollify its more simple-minded constituents, but nothing really changes.

    RE: 2. Enact laws prohibiting illegals from receiving any government benefits.

    Ain’t gonna happen. Also, the degree to which illegal immigrants use government services (apart from education) is overstated. And preventing illegal immigrant children from attending school is just another way of guaranteeing that a large number of truant children will join gangs.

    3. Eliminate the standard that confers citizenship on children born to illegals on our soil.

    Good luck trying to get an amendment to the Constitution on this one.

    Also, if you live in Southern California and watch any Spanish language television, you find that contrary to the nonsense spouted by both Bush and the Congress, the promise of American citizenship is not always a big issue for illegal immigrants. Rather, many want the right to enter the US to work, and the freedom of movement to travel back home whenever they want, retaining the citizenship of their home countries.

    RE: 4. Enact a law stating that any alien caught on our soil beyond a certain date will be subject to severe criminal penalties and his assets will be seized.

    Why not seize the assets of employers who flout the law and employ illegal immigrants? This would be more effective than attempting to seize the assets of people who may not have anything to seize.

    RE: 5. Enact a law stating that, in addition, if they are found in the US after that time, they will forevermore be prohibited from entering our nation.

    There is no effective way to enforce this since people who are deported under current laws often easily re-enter the country.

    RE: Understand that these measures will so greatly reduce the number of illegals (my guess is by 90 percent) that taking legal action against the lawbreakers who remain will simply be a matter of eliminating a few stragglers.

    Nice fantasy, but your guess as to the effectiveness of your proposed laws is an idle blog fantasy. Can you offer a real-world example of where similar laws have worked?

    RE: As I’ve said before, there are no jobs Americans won’t do, there are only wages Americans won’t work for. The law of supply and demand informs that flooding an economic system with great numbers of low-wage workers causes their value to decrease. If you purge the system of them, however, businesses won’t go belly-up for want of labor. They will simply offer what the remaining, more valuable workers are now worth. I call that a healthy, natural, free market way of spreading the wealth around.

    I agree with much of what you say here. Oddly enough, in California, growers are complaining that the can’t get enough “guest workers” to work in their farms because many of them prefer better paying and longer-termed jobs in the construction industry to seasonal agricultural work. And yet Bush keeps pushing for “comprehensive immigration reform” that is blatantly pro-business, as opposed to free market, and certainly not pro-American worker. The big question is how he continues to get away with this economic betrayal of the American people?

  • STM

    Doc wrote: “(Newcastle United)”.

    Geordie boy are we Doc? I lived in a small village near Stockton for a time when I was kid. My father took me to watch Middlesboro play once. In Aussie terms, just a hop-skip-and-jump away from Newcastle, but I realise in English terms it might as well be on the other side of the world.

    Croke Park … home of Gaelic football, the abomination that gave birth to that other abomination, Australian Football. Impressive ground, though, as the game’s played on a much bigger pitch than rugby or soccer.

    At least the Irish don’t wear fetching sleeveless tops and shorts that look more like second-rate undies on special at Marks and Sparks, unlike their heathen, philistine breathren in the AFL.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Well, in the spirit of reconciliation that appears to be de rigeur in Ireland these days, the GAA has magnanimously agreed to let the Irish national rugby and soccer teams play their home games at Croke Park while Lansdowne is being redeveloped. (Lansdowne is indeed having a full do-over, so even if the grass ain’t been dug up, there wouldn’t be much point as there’d be nowhere people could watch from.) Judging by the reports and photos I’ve seen, Croke is a huge and awesome venue, one of the best stadia in Europe without a doubt. It has a fantastic atmosphere and the soccer and rugger sides have responded enthusiastically to the experience of playing there.

    Sorry, Stan, I’ve tried to get into rugby but just can’t (either version, although I do think League is marginally more exciting to watch). Even England’s World Cup triumph didn’t really register much more than a blip on the old patri-o-meter. I grew up watching soccer and with an attachment to a particular club (Newcastle United) and I guess you just stay loyal to your own footie code.

    I do take your point though about the top teams and players tending to cancel one another out these days. The phenomenon isn’t lost on fans, who are starting to pay more attention to the game at lower levels, where it’s more open and unpredictable. Even so, the top clubs can still provide some excitement – as Mr Rose deftly illustrated a few weeks ago with his run-down of recent Man U [hawk, spit!] results.

    Yes, we Poms do seem to have invented just about every good sport (whilst contriving to suck at all of them). I’m excluding American sports here, which were invented for the exclusive use of Americans so that they could be the best at them. I laugh every time the commentators hail the newly-crowned Superbowl or World Series winners as ‘world champions’. True enough – but hollow.

    Let’s see: football (at least three different kinds), cricket, tennis, golf, field hockey, badminton, snooker, billiards, darts, squash, netball, lawn bowling, croquet… any others?

  • STM

    Sorry mate … in Argentina, Santa Fe. Don’t know what came over me there, to be sure. Nevertheless, isn’t Lansdowne still playable, with only some of the stands out? I thought it was only partly a building site.

    Lol. Germany. Don’t ask those buggers for anything. They’ll just give you a hot foot. And don’t they have another national sport??

    Doc, I must say – you have to get your head around rugby old boy. Not to do so will deprive you of far too much joy. Not for nothing is it known as the game they play in heaven. At its most entertaining, it can be unbelievably exciting and highly unpredictable. More action than soccer, with its extra dimension (people bashing into each other and trying to chop them in half) and more points scored too. The best way to familiarise yourself totally is to watch a few games in a row – the RWC would fit the bill for that. Despite how it looks, it has plenty of subtle nuances.

    I think the reason I have gone off watching soccer of late is the genuine lack of scoring opportunities thanks to the high level of skill and fitness now required of ALL the players.

    With rugby, that factor just ups the ante, especially in broken field play, which is why you’ll see more points scored.

    And here’s a little fact I learned recently. The term try originally meant that if you placed the ball over the line, you were then allowed to have a “try” at goal, which is how the game’s evolved. Got to love the Poms for inventing all the best games 🙂

  • I would love to read this story, but there’s a big google video ad over it. Any way I can ‘close’ the ad? (I’m using Mozilla Firefox).

  • Dr Dreadful

    Argentina, meanwhile, gave Ireland a touch up at Lansdowne Road

    Quite a feat as Lansdowne Road is a building site at the moment…

  • Dr Dreadful

    And Clavos concedes: pointless trying to reason with young Selwyn and his minions, so let’s talk about sport instead.

    I’m not a rugby fan, Stan, which is just as well because the closest one generally gets to a game of rugger here is if a quarterback loses his helmet while being sacked. But I did happen to catch some of the SA-England game on Saturday: implausibly, it was on TV in a bar in San Diego where I was visiting for the weekend. I wasn’t paying much attention except inasmuch as I was trying to explain the rules to my bewildered brother-in-law – which was quite interesting as I don’t really know them myself! I would look up at the screen every few minutes to discover that the Springboks had discreetly added another 50 or so points in my absence – rather embarrassing.

    I dunno about the quarter-finals, mate: England’ll be lucky to get out of the group stage on that performance. We may be in for the most inept defence of a major sporting trophy since Argentina’s Italia ’90 ‘play for penalties at all costs’ strategy. What a coma-a-thon that was. You know it’s come to a pretty pass when the whole of England is begging Germany to put an end to everyone’s misery…

  • Stan,

    That’s the PERFECT word, “ponce.”

    Love it.

    Every time I put on me fucken ‘at, I just want to kick arse.

    Fair dinkum, mate.

  • Doc #4:

    I know, it’s a waste, but I can’t help myself.

    I’ve tried twelve step programs and everything; nothing works.

    But it does feel good to vent.

  • “Alow (sic) me to edit “Deport the illegal aliens”… With that one word, illegal, Clovis’ retort is meaningless.”

    The addition of one word (or even a dozen words) doesn’t change my point nor make it meaningless, as you put it.

    Did you know that virtually everyone whose ancestors came here before the 1920s came in freely, with no laws, restrictions or quotas to impede them? And that many of them, especially in the 18th century, were criminals transported here to clear out English and other European prisons.

    Quotas, ironically, were established to keep the numbers of those horrible people from Europe down; no one in those days even considered that the slimy Latinos would one day want to come here, too, so they had no quotas.

    There are hundreds of thousands of Mexicans all along this side of the border whose families have been here for hundreds of years, since before there even WAS a USA.

    Unfortunately, we were unsuccessful at stopping all those lowlifes from places like Ireland and Germany and Norway, and Italy, and now look what they’ve done to our beautiful country!

    So, by all means, let’s get rid of all those European and African scum and leave the country to its rightful owners, the Native Americans.

    What’s that you say? Most of the Mexicans are indigenous peoples? Why, just look at their brown skins, they look just like the Seminoles and Mohicans and Iroquois. What’s that? They were here first?

    Oh well, guess they get to stay after all.

    Oh, and BTW, Dee my moniker is C L A V O S. That’s Spanish, Dee.

  • STM

    Doc said: “That’s a given. No human rugby team could take your Aussie arses to town the way the All Blacks do on a regular basis!”

    Yep, that’d be it Doc. It’d also be the reason why the All Blacks have won one world cup and the Wallabies are the only team to have won two.

    Now, on a SERIOUS note, that might change at this World Cup. I watched the Springboks absolutely demolish your mob in Bloemfontein on Saturday, and they look awesome on the back of the South African teams’ showing in the Super 14. The Bulls and Sharks contested the final in Durban, and they were far and away the two best teams in the comp this year. The other japies weren’t that far behind, either.

    The Wallabies, meanwhile, were lucky to score a late try that gave them a win against Wales in Sydney on Saturday night. The Welsh side looked to be, like, Wales E – with 20 or so regular squad members missing. Australia just looked inept. No go forward on the fringes until Gregan came on late, heaps of possession they couldn’t convert to points, and heaps of bumbling out in the backline that led to a host of errors and a mountain of dropped ball.

    Argentina, meanwhile, gave Ireland a touch up at Lansdowne Road – so I’m having second thoughts about Ireland getting into the final.

    The All Black juggernaut is yet to be unleashed. They look fearsome. My tip: Either South Africa or New Zealand to win the Cup, possibly with France a chance. Your mob, my mob – both going home with faces like trodden-on cocker spaniels after the quarter finals 🙂

  • STM

    “With that one word, illegal, Clovis’ retort is (blab blah blah)”

    Clovis, now, eh Clav? Did you know Clovis was a King of the Franks at the time of the Roman Empire, and united all of Gaul under his reign?

    He was also regarded by the Romans as an illegal immigrant, but clearly he had as much right to live in Gaul as they did. Eventually, they realised it was a lost cause and got him onside.

  • Dr Dreadful

    STM sez: I’ll agree that New Zealanders are aliens, Clav.

    That’s a given. No human rugby team could take your Aussie arses to town the way the All Blacks do on a regular basis! 😉

  • STM

    I’ll agree that New Zealanders are aliens, Clav. By the way, I’m intrigued – do you think “Selwyn” is a fair-dinkum name? Would parents in this day and age really call their child Selwyn? Not living in the US, I just don’t know. Or perhaps the author has simply picked what he thinks is the most anglo name possible. Either way, coupled with this extreme right-wing rubbish, it just makes him sound like a ponce.

  • Doug Hunter

    Interesting, the immigration situation we have today has evolved from unenforced laws. Laws and regulation with lax and sporadic enforcement are some of the most corrupting and serious problems with government IMO.

    It’s much more than immigration. When government sets a bar (often too high or with unreasonable red tape) and doesn’t enforce it the free market takes over and people start pushing the limits. That sets up the situation we have now with immigration. Since many players are at fault bureacrats have free reign to harass and punish entities at will. The good old boys, the companies that provide the right donations don’t get busted. The one’s that fired the ICE officer’s cousin get raided and shut down. It’d be a joke if it weren’t such a serious example of a rampant flaw in our system.

    For society to function freely and with a sense of fairplay laws and regulations should be created sparingly with a clear and measurable purpose and enforced consistently with uniform punishment. (if those requirements aren’t met the law should be removed or replaced)

  • Dr Dreadful

    Clav, from what I’ve seen, Mr Duke is basically a one-issue contributor. He has nothing new to say. I don’t think he’s worth your [electronic] breath.

  • Dee

    Alow me to edit “Deport the illegal aliens”… With that one word, illegal, Clovis’ retort is meaningless.

  • “Deport the aliens.”

    Fair enough.

    But let’s deport ALL the aliens: ALL the Latinos, ALL the Asians, ALL the Europeans, ALL the Muslims (especially them!), ALL the Africans, Brits, Poles, Italians, Germans, Norwegians, Swedes, Greeks, Egyptians, Russians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Irish, Japanese, Polynesians, Indians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc., etc…They’re ALL aliens.

    ALL THE ALIENS – only the “Native Americans” get to stay.

    When can we start?

  • Marge

    Amen to this astute author. Of course, it is all about the perks. Illegal aliens do not live in fear. They continuously violate our laws including driving without licences, use false ID’s and access social services meant for US citizens. On top of that, they claim they are religious while having multiple children out of wedlock and lining up for presumtive medicaid so US taxpayers can foot the bill and give away citizenship. The major deterrent to the illegal alien crisis not mentioned here is leadership. It starts from the top. If only we had a leader who said illegal entry is a crime and that it would be punished. Its the difference between Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan in the Iranian Hostage Crisis. The world knew that Ronald Reagan meant business. Words have meaning and can be powerful as a deterrent to crime. When we have a President who says it is impossible to have secure borders unless we have a guest worker program, we are saying to the world that we don’t believe in enforcement. It is baffling why the Republican Party continues to back this President who has the lowest approval rating in modern times. Why any Senators would want to align themselves with this President and his failed policies is also baffling. If the Republican Party went back to its core principles, it would surge. I still don’t think they get it. SECURE THE BORDER. It is required as part of national security, not as part of a “bribe” or “trigger”. Deport the aliens.