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Immigration Solution Lies in the Rule of Law

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As a nation we currently host 12 million residents whose very presence here is illegal, but whose departure would result in hardship and instability. While the remedy will be as complex as the problem, the solution is found at the source of the predicament.

Most immigrants come to America seeking the “unalienable rights” secured by our Republic. But the very principle that draws illegal immigrants across our borders becomes the basis for holding them accountable and the justification for keeping them out.

America is founded upon the rule of law — a tradition of holding the actions of our government to the objective standard of fundamental moral law. This legal ordering not only preexists, but transcends government. Because it is not bestowed by the state, it cannot be applied or complied with selectively. And just as the law is not subject to the will of the majority, it cannot be suspended in its application to the individual, regardless of the alternative or consequence.

While this irony is troubling, it does not make our course impossible or self-defeating. Like most Americans, I am not an expert on immigration policy. But I am certain that any law Congress passes must be measured against and ultimately sustain America’s greatest virtue — its foundation in the rule of law.

Therefore, it seems obvious that our borders must be immediately sealed and all immigrants required to enter our country legally. We are at war with an enemy that has demonstrated a commitment and ability to breach our borders and kill our citizens. Furthermore, it is naive to view illegal immigration as a victimless crime. Those who impose themselves on an already strained system cause hardship for legal citizens who utilize public resources.

Second, current law must be enforced. Illegal immigrants convicted of deportable crimes must be removed from our country. Nothing impugns the merit of the law more than a lack of enforcement of the law.

Next, the rule of law mandates that illegal behavior be punished and never rewarded. Granting amnesty to those already in our country illegally offends this principle. Worse, it perverts the law by punishing those who have or are in the process of entering legally. While mass deportation is impractical and harmful, complete absolution for criminal behavior is equally destructive.

Additionally, immigrants must be treated with care and justice. A virtuous nation can take no lesser course. However, as beneficiaries of freedom, they must remember that our liberties were born by sacrifice and are lived with a cost. Diversity makes us stronger, but it must be accompanied by respect for laws, traditions and customs.

Finally, pressure must be imposed on governments that ignore the “sacred and undeniable” rights of all people. Just as our Founders relied on the rule of law in making their case for secession to the watching nations, we must continue to hold all nations to this standard. Until the injustice and corruption of countries such as Mexico is confronted, the draw of free, representative government will overtake the law protecting it.

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About Jeffrey L. Syrios

  • Carson

    The article sounded okay until it changed gears and started talking about, “immigrants”.

    Immigrants are a totally separate subject from illegal aliens or illegal invaders.

    Immigrants come here legally and as far as I’ve seen are treated pretty well.

    The illegal invaders on the other hand have been treated better than the honest citizen and the immigrants.

    The government with its Revolution in governing has been coming up with special gravy and amnesty for these illegal invaders and it needs to stop!

    I’m afraid first we will need to restore law and order in our government before we can restore law and order in our streets.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    solid Article, and much of it i have been saying around here for quite some time

    a few quibbles though

    i do not think it’s our Law they come here for, but the money…a better life, plain and simple

    so..in accordance with supply and demand…the border must be sealed, yes…but the Rule of Law must be imposed on each and every Employer who knowingly hires illegals

    prosecution to the fullest extent

    remove the demand, and the supply will dwindle

    just a Thought

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.itsnofun.com Mongo Aurelio

    Mr Syrios,

    I am an undocumented worker.
    As an attorney, you might be able to educate me on the following questions.
    -Isn’t the American legal system based on social custom, precedent and discretionary enforcement as much as in the letter of the law (a characteristic inherited from Common Law)?
    – If so, isn’t the null enforcement that immigration law received in the last decades a perfect example of that?
    – When offenders are numerous, doesn’t amnesty make sense? (think about the post-Civil War situation, for example).
    – Wouldn’t bringing that many million people back to the social fabric, document them, et cetera, actually strengthen the rule of law?

    Thank you for your opinion

    Mongo Aurelio

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    heh..while waiting for the lawyer

    didn’t work in ’86, we have had 20 years of trying, and it has made the problem worse for everybody

    you could say the same thing about the pot smokers, drug users…they’ve been breaking the law for even longer, but you reasoning missed a point

    folks are caught on the border every day, in large numbers…the Law IS being enforced in this instance, problem is..just like contraband, way more folks are breaking it than are getting caught…an Enforcement issue…NOT a cultural one

    nuff said…

    Excelsior?

  • Arch Conservative

    Pretty decent article.

    Mongo…get it straight [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]. You’re an ILLEGAL ALIEN. You’re a criminal.

    And no it doesn’t make sense to grant amnesty to millions who have no desire to fully become part of the system. There is absolutely no eveidence to suppor the idea that they would begin obeying all US law. Presently they are not paying taxes, recieving free healthcare and government welfare assistance, committing violent criems without fear of being tracked down and punished etc…
    Why would they trade that all in for an invitation to actually pay their own way and be accountable?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    You seem to almost understand the issue, but just miss it when you say:

    This legal ordering not only preexists, but transcends government. Because it is not bestowed by the state, it cannot be applied or complied with selectively. And just as the law is not subject to the will of the majority, it cannot be suspended in its application to the individual, regardless of the alternative or consequence.

    But then you move on to endorsing the same old draconian security measures which haven’t worked will never work and cannot work. But you were so close to seeing the reality, that there are laws which transcend the laws we legislate, and that the rule of law is not the rule of the dictates of congress or the states, but the rule of the natural laws on which they are (often imperfectly) based.

    Rigidly enforcing bad laws does no one any good. A bad law cannot be enforced fairly or to produce a good result. When bad law is enforced that way the result is oppression in the name of law.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    why is it a “bad law” to fucking enforce the borders

    no one ever claiming this is some kind of “bad law” has EVER explained that one, or shown facts to back the claim

    here, one would think in a time of conflict , where we are concerned with foreign folks coming into the country and bombing shit, that border security should be priority number one

    but i guess cheap lawn work and nannys trumps our Rule of Law and national security for the recipients of cheap labor

    Excelsior?

  • moonraven

    I bailed out right away because this premise is false:

    Most immigrants come to America seeking the “unalienable rights” secured by our Republic.

    The largest sector of undocumented worker is from Mexico. They are not risking life and limb for any rights except the right/opportunity to make money to send home to their families.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, it’s bad law to fortify the borders when there is an obvious need in the country to bring in immigrant labor and an obvious need of the population in Mexico to find work. A manmade law which goes against what is effectively a force of nature – at least human nature – is self-defeating and idiotic.

    but i guess cheap lawn work and nannys trumps our Rule of Law and national security for the recipients of cheap labor

    To be frank, it absolutely does.

    Dave

  • Jerry

    At least until the next investigation of a major terrorist attack reveals that their maincured lawns and trees were blown to hell by someone crossing the Mexican border.

  • Clavos

    O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!

    I agree with the large, harsh-voiced black bird!!! (#8)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    @ #9 – well then, we see the priorities

    as well as the root of the problem..pure fucking rapacious greed, rather than adherence to the Law, or even the security of the Country

    i will just have to disagree, and there has still been NO proof, or even a decent and logical argument to be made as to why sealing the borders against criminals is bad in any way….

    Excelsior?

  • Nancy

    Good article, the only fault is, it ignores the biggest offender in violating federal immigration law – the Bush administration, i.e. the government itself. Around the DC area, many localities are trying to crack down on illegals, to the point of investigating & rounding them up. Trouble is, they can’t get the damned feds to come get them or deport them, even tho they’re doing 90% of their work for them! This, apparently, on the orders of BushCo, probably to supply the cheap labor entitlement BushCo’s fellow plutocrats require & demand, as mentioned above.

  • Baronius

    – People come to this country because of its prosperity, not its laws –

    We became prosperous because of our laws. They provide a structure and a guarantee that property will be safe. It didn’t just happen that the big economic winners were settled by England and the Netherlands. Spain, Portugal, and France had moderate successes. No one else has.

    Just as important for immigrants, this country’s government is restrained by its laws. Many people who come here are fleeing oppressive regimes. For all the griping that Americans do about the Patriot Act, no one’s getting dragged out of his home for his religion or race.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Right-wingers say “illegal immigrant.” Left-wingers say “undocumented worker.”

    I say let’s call them what they are: international jaywalkers.

    Face the truth. Every day in this country we let millions of criminals go unpunished. People who drive faster than the law says they should. People who cross the street when the light says they shouldn’t. People who rip the tags off their mattresses. And people who walk across an imaginary line in the desert without first obtaining a permission slip from the government.

    The crime of the illegal immigrant is a victimless crime, just like the crime of the jaywalker or the speeder. Claims about unfair advantages illegal immigrants gain over legal immigrants are just a specious excuse for preying on people’s irrational fears and hatreds.

    Does anyone advocate hunting down all the speeders because they unfairly reached their destinations sooner than those vanishingly rare people who drive within the speed limit? Of course not! That would be stupid. And so is today’s anti-immigrant fervor.

    Opposing amnesty for such a minor crime is not, never has been, and never will be a matter of noble legal principle. It will ever remain a matter of low irrational fear and hate. History will judge it just as harshly as we now judge the internment camps of World War 2 or the forced relocations of the American Indians.

    Even worse, everyone wasting time complaining about “the ILLEGALS!!!1!!” is helping to distract the body politic from the steady erosion of our essential liberties. If we continue failing to stand up against that monumental crime, the punishment for all of us is built right in.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    well Victor, one of those Liberties is the sanctity of the border and our right to say who can immigrate and who can’t

    we have an entire system set up to legally enter this country

    criminals bypass that, some in their desire to become citizens, many to work and send money home…and to go back eventually themselves

    they themselves are some of the victims, being taken advantage of like any other example of slave labor

    many citizens are also victims, the artificial downward pressure on wages due to the glut of cheap, illegal labor is damaging to the nation in many ways

    i’m all for working something out with those already here…seal the border, let those here admit it and GET TO THE END OF THE LINE BEHIND LEGAL APPLICANTS…and i’m fine

    but sealing the border must come first, then prosecuting EVERY employer who knowingly hires illegals to cut off the demand, THEN we can document those here, and set them at the end of the line after those who are following the rules

    anything else is wrong on every level, and completely unfair to those who have followed the rules and waited, sometimes for years, for their chance to come here the right way

    Excelsior?

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    Respect For Law? Can’t expect illegals to have any respect when the Scofflaw-In-Chief commutes his crony. Just like Mexico.

  • http://www.libertyrepublican.com Dave Nalle

    Bliffle, I’m pretty damned sure that the average illegal has no idea what Bush is doing and doesn’t care.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    objection your Honor…both #17 and #18 are speculation..possibly accurate, but speculation none the less

    Excelsior?

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Convenient to demand “sealing the border must come first,” Gonzo. With that as your condition none of the other reforms will ever be put in place, because borders cannot be sealed so totally.

    Not without destroying every last remaining vestige of personal liberty.

    But please, continue to demand physically impossible and morally contradictory conditions. Eventually perhaps people will realize you are not thinking rationally on this issue.

  • http://www.libertyrepublican.com Dave Nalle

    Victor, remember that Gonzo – like most of the border enforcement hardasses – lives as far away from the border as humanly possible, in Maine where people are still outraged that 3 blacks moved there right after the civil war, and where they look on the Portuguese who’ve been in Portland for 100 years as foreign devils.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    well Victor…knowing nothing is 100% secure..i’d take 90% as a victory, wouldn’t you?

    please to point out the “morally contradictory” bit for me..i’ll do my best to explain

    i’m completely rational here, what is irrational on wanting the Law to be followed, our borders as secured as possible, and for those who entered illegally to go to the end of the line behind those following the rules and the criminal employers who knowingly hire illegals to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law?

    do please clarify what in that you consider “irrational”

    and oy yes, thanks so much for the civil discourse on the topic (that was sarcasm)

    Excelsior?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    @ #21 – pure bullshit…i may live in Maine now, but i’ve not always lived here…in fact there was a time in my school days where i was one of three white kids in the entire school

    you know shit when it comes to me, but nice try at character assassination, too bad you have NO command of the facts

    try dealing with my positions directly, or the arguments i use rather than feeble attempts at smears and distractions

    might be too much to ask for some, but i can Dream, can’t i?

    Excelsior?

  • Baronius

    Dave, all laws oppose some element of human nature. There aren’t many laws against singing songs to mailboxes, because it never comes up. Just because people want to come into the country, we should drop our law against it? What about the fact that some people really want to steal? Is that a bad law too?

    Also, your comments about Gonzo were cheap. I know that you’re not a lib, but you fell back on their two most common defenses: saying that you’re more fit to make a decision, and implying that the other guy is racist.

  • Jerry

    It is unfortunate that Dave always reverts to the racist/nativist line. I would expect better from him than the employment of this Europeanesque tactic used by the globalist types.

    I would also like empirical evidence that the majority of Americans wanting the border sealed are from the greatest distances away. I live 200 miles from it, and I know a lot of folks like myself that are growing weary of the rapid Mexification of their towns, along with increased crime and all the other stuff that’s been mentioned a thousand times.

    Dave is out of touch on this issue, and he knows it but won’t budge regardless.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Gonzo, it is morally contradictory to give the “sanctity” of an imaginary line on a map higher importance than the freedom of human beings to choose where to live and where to work.

    It is irrational to think you can increase prosperity for any group by sealing them off from the rest of the world. The only way to guarantee America’s future prosperity and safety is to engage with the rest of the world and live by our own highest principles while doing so, not to build a great wall and hide behind it.

    Your positions are well intended but ultimately self-defeating.

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    It’s very telling that Bush is so overzealous on detention and interrogation of suspects and eavesdropping on citizens, but has so little interest in illegal immigration enforcement.

  • Baronius

    Lee, it’s “telling”? What do you think it tells? Whatever the weaknesses of Bush’s immigration policy, do you really believe that he’s crueler to US citizens for some ulterior motive?

    For that matter, Bliffle, why the cheap shot at Bush? You don’t like him: we get it. Commuting a sentence is an executive power. You can’t compare it to jumping the border.

    And Nancy, if you know who the president is, you can figure out from the article that Jeffrey thinks Bush is wrong.

  • REMF

    “Victor, remember that Gonzo – like most of the border enforcement hardasses – lives as far away from the border as humanly possible…”
    – Dave Nalle

    But…but…Nalle, distance away from an activity has never stopped you from pontificating an opinion…
    – MCH

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    “Gonzo, it is morally contradictory to give the “sanctity” of an imaginary line on a map higher importance than the freedom of human beings to choose where to live and where to work.”

    Victor..i just don’t know how to respond to this bit

    so you are saying that ALL international boundaries are invalid?

    that no Country has the Right to enforce the sanctity of it’s borders or to control immigration into it’s boundaries?

    under your logic there are NO countries, what distinguishes Mexico from Costa Rica, or Canada from Greenland?

    you do also realize that Mexico has a MUCH harsher set of laws and punishment for illegal immigrants, do you not?

    so..if a Nation cannot have any border, or control who enters it’s country, or who is allowed to become a citizen (your argument as stated)..then al Qaeda are perfectly valid to enter our country AS CITIZENS to do their “work” freely?

    tell me you are just fucking with me here, please, because this makes NO sense

    Excelsior?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    “What is irrational is the expectation that people will obey a law which is contrary to their best interests and to human nature.”

    so someone who murders their spouse for the insurance money is ok by you since it’s in their self interest and it’s in human nature to get bored after a while?

    bullshit rationalization which would negate almost ALL laws…nation ruled by Law, or Men..one would think a Historian would know better

    are you advocating that a Nation has no right to enforce it’s Laws or borders?

    do note that i have stated part of it is physically sealing the border, the other is to remove demand by prosecuting the employers who hire illegals to the fullest extent of the law…here i had thought you had some inkling of supply and demand and how that works…thanks for the correction

    “You don’t want data mining, yet you are willing to embrace biometric IDs and deportation camps and the persecution of business owners and even charity workers who deal with illegals without turning them into the INS?”

    i fucking DEFY you to EVER find me saying or advocating biometric ID’s or detention camps…go ahead, i’ll eat my words and leave here forever if you can find a SINGLE instance of me advocating those positions…find it or fucking publicly apologize for the Lie, imo

    i said prosecution of business owners who break the law by knowingly hiring illegals..yes..every nanny, every construction worker, every meat packer, every cleaning person…i’m NOT about going after the worker…but yes, NAIL the employer

    i NEVER said shit about deporting those here already..in this very thread i state they should come out into the open, get documented and get to the end of the line for green cards and citizenship

    learn to fucking read, how is the hypocrisy of trying to lie about facts in this very thread which are clearly stated lost on you?

    Excelsior?

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    #28:

    It clearly tells anyone who cares to think objectively that Bush only selectively carries out his duties to see that the law is faithfully executed (just as his administration only selectively follows a number of our laws.)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    “Since his position makes no sense at all and is directly contradictory to everything else he says on other issues of citizens rights, what am I supposed to conclude except that there is some other cause for his attitude?”

    umm..we’re NOT talking about citizens, but about illegal aliens in our country

    i don’t give a fuck where they come from, it’s about a sovereign nation being able to control it’s borders as well as who comes into the country…it’s about the Rule of Law being more important than getting somebody to mow your lawn cheap…it’s about employers who break the law for their bottom line

    can’t be any more clear, and i can’t understand why it’s so difficult for some people to comprehend

    folks want to come here, i’m fine with that..all my grandparents were immigrants…legal ones

    get in line, follow the fucking rules and welcome to the USA…break the law, and get to the end of the line…just that simple

    Excelsior?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    for the sake of Clarity here, let me lay some things out concerning my Thoughts on this topic

    you see, i don’t like the idea of a hidden “peasant class”

    don’t want to pay your illegal, you don’t have to ..they can’t complain

    no healthcare for your illegals, they can just go to the emergency room, fuck giving them disability or following safety regulations, OSHA or other laws, they can’t complain

    fuck minimum wage, or other laws about how many hours they can work without overtime, they can’t complain

    hey, let’s keep the identity thieves and forgers in business…big black market for social security cards and birth certificates with the illegal alien crowd..so what if terrorists can use the same networks for what they want

    i don’t lay that much blame on those folks coming here illegally, i place most of it on those businesses who hire them rather than legal workers so they can make more bucks by fucking over our labor laws

    it ain’t just Mexicans/Latin Americans…ever seen a Chinese sweatshop here in the States? folks brought over in shipping containers whose lives are mortgaged for years to pay for the passage..if they survive it…

    all for the rapacious greed of employers who think violating our laws and cutting corners to line their pockets makes it ok…i don’t blame the victims trying to get a better life..i blame the scumbag “slave owners” and those that enable them

    hence my positions laid out in this thread

    Excelsior?

  • Jerry

    All this reference to “Human Nature”?

    Well, I guess it’s NOT human nature to be afraid of massive change that you feel you have no control over, especially when there was a time when you did.

    I guess it’s NOT human nature to want to protect what you have worked hard and labored for, from being taken by those who haven’t (in the form of higher taxes, premiums, etc.)

    I guess it’s NOT human nature to be offended by people who come into your space and begin to flaunt their extreme nationalism (living in the shadows? What a crock) with little if any respect for mine. (Try going to Mexico and wave your little red, white and blue around, and demand services. Then you’ll see human nature.)

    And I suppose it’s NOT human nature to be absolutely exasperated when elected leaders fail to take any effective action to rectify serious problems like illegal immigration.

    Oh. oh. it’s all human nature, but us border sealers just have the bad kind.

  • Jerry

    Fallacy: “Border security is unattainable”.

    True, if our definition is zero incursions; false if it means that we can drastically limit the number of incursions.

    Another fallacy: “A wall will not stop illegal immigration”.

    True, if that is the only deterrent in place. Ask anyone who understands the fundamentals of a good security system and they will tell you it is multifaceted. There is OPSEC, COMSEC,and physical(walls). Add to this administrative controls and effective enforcement of laws and you will succeed. By the way , why has the wall in the San Diego sector cut illegal crossings so dramatically if it’s useless?

    Americans have spoken: Secure the border, stop the massive immigration, and in so doing we may have a better chance of keeping some terrorists out as well.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I believe that Jerry has eloquently illustrated the basic fallacy of Gonzo’s reasoning, because he’s quite correct that if you accept the idea of border enforcement you have to accept the multifaceted character of it and all the daily violations of our basic rights that will entail.

    so someone who murders their spouse for the insurance money is ok by you since it’s in their self interest and it’s in human nature to get bored after a while?

    bullshit rationalization which would negate almost ALL laws…nation ruled by Law, or Men..one would think a Historian would know better

    This makes no sense at all and bears no relationship to anything I said. All I said is that laws should recognize the natural motivations of people, not counter them with arbitrary rules. Obviously recognizing the rights of individuals not to be killed, robbed or otherwise abused is part of that. But laws whose purpose is not justified by the real needs of the people are bad laws and lead to worse abuse.

    are you advocating that a Nation has no right to enforce it’s Laws or borders?

    Did I say anything like that? What I’m saying is that it’s a stupid, expensive and ineffective way to deal with immigration to build a ridiculous wall to keep people out.

    do note that i have stated part of it is physically sealing the border, the other is to remove demand by prosecuting the employers who hire illegals to the fullest extent of the law…here i had thought you had some inkling of supply and demand and how that works…thanks for the correction

    Which directly contradicts what you say below when you get all bent out of shape and claim I’m lying about what you support. If you believe that employer enforcement is part of the approach to border security, then you have to accept the mechanisms which make it possible, and that is having a way to identify every citizen, which means a biometric ID which is hard to forge, and it means government and employers having the right to ask for that ID whenever they want, because that’s how you tell who the illegals are, because they won’t have the IDs. Then it means things like checkpoints and roundups and ID verification whenever a cop sees you on the street.

    i fucking DEFY you to EVER find me saying or advocating biometric ID’s or detention camps…go ahead, i’ll eat my words and leave here forever if you can find a SINGLE instance of me advocating those positions…find it or fucking publicly apologize for the Lie, imo

    I apologize for assuming that you had thought through the things you say you believe in. Since you repeated your belief in workplace enforcement in this very comment I’m responding to, clearly you don’t really grasp what’s involved in making it work. See above.

    i said prosecution of business owners who break the law by knowingly hiring illegals..yes..every nanny, every construction worker, every meat packer, every cleaning person…i’m NOT about going after the worker…but yes, NAIL the employer

    To make that a fair and enforcable law you are going to HAVE to give them a way to tell if someone is an illegal and be absolutely sure about it. That means biometric IDs and the right to check anyone’s ID, even if they are lilly white and live 2000 miles from the border. Despite your denials, THAT is what you are advocating.

    i NEVER said shit about deporting those here already..in this very thread i state they should come out into the open, get documented and get to the end of the line for green cards and citizenship

    And if they don’t want to go to the end of the line? If they feel that the years of service they’ve given to our comfort and economy entitle them to somewhat better treatment than that? And what is their status when we offer only a finite number of visas and green cards and they are at the back of the line and the cut-off is infront of them? Do we let them stay illegally? Try to think these things through, please.

    learn to fucking read, how is the hypocrisy of trying to lie about facts in this very thread which are clearly stated lost on you?

    You’re clearly way too emotionally invested in this to think about it at all rationally. You’re contradicting yourself from sentence to sentence and literally just ranting.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    again …more bullshit, still trying to put words into my mouth, and NOT dealing with any of the simple and direct Issues but instead making things up as you go along

    i said securing the border…does this mean a wall? …perhaps, but it’s not what i said..it’s something that has to be thought through, and worked out

    again..rather than apologize for an outright lie, or admit a mistake, you again attempt to place a position on me that i have never taken

    simple enough to get rid of the vast majority of illegal workers with what we have at hand, birth certificate and social security cards…say what you will, but the fact is that the vast majority of employers who hire illegals don’t bother to check…i’m certain even in Austin they have those spots to pick up day laborers…any paperwork checked there?

    those illegal nanny’s…anything checked there? oh, that’s right..all under the table and not reported

    i’m not contradicting myself at all….and will gladly leave it to the readers

    all i am saying is enforce the laws on the books, prosecute those employers breaking the laws…ensure the government agencies involved follow up and enforce the laws

    merely taking those steps and prosecuting blatant infractions by employers would stop the vast majority of illegal hirings…make it so that doing so is too risky and the rest will discontinue (with some exceptions) for simple risk management reasons

    you keep changing the goalposts and trying to make shit much more harsh and complicated than it really is…

    so let me spell it out simply

    enforce the borders – as was put forward earlier, the fence near San Diego has done quite a bit to slow down illegal crossings…finish the job, talk with the Border Patrol..find out what they need, and give it to them…allow the professionals to do their job

    enforce the laws against hiring illegal aliens – my company required a birth certificate copy, my social security card and a drivers license…that’s all, but it’s effective…right now enquiries into social security numbers are halted at the federal level…simple database checks can easily catch most frauds, implement them..compare that to the birth certificate and you stop the vast majority right there without any kind of onerous new IDs or the other bullshit posited here….our Social Security numbers and birth certificates are all that’s needed, as long as employers are allowed to send in the inquiries to make certain they check out…if the employer does that, they are covered and any fraud is totally on the illegal (who would be charged with a crime for using forged federal documents (the SSN) anyway)

    this bit is just too fucking pathetic
    “And if they don’t want to go to the end of the line? If they feel that the years of service they’ve given to our comfort and economy entitle them to somewhat better treatment than that? And what is their status when we offer only a finite number of visas and green cards and they are at the back of the line and the cut-off is infront of them? Do we let them stay illegally? Try to think these things through, please.”

    what is wanted by a criminal is irrelevant…it being a minor crime, as i’ve said, it’s not about punishing them…but i DID state clearly and repeatedly…they come out of hiding, get documented…they go to the back of the line for a green card and or citizenship (which they still need to qualify for, just like everyone else) – the end of the line is their only punishment for entering illegally…their “service” as you call it is bullshit…were they in the military?..no, they were making a living…that is NOT service that is self interest, nice try at spin, but a failure

    as documented aliens, i’m all for allowing them a temporary work papers while they go through the process…as long as they are working…and now they would be covered by all labor laws..pay their taxes and the rest….don’t like it? here’s the door…

    those seeking political asylum follow the proper channels…but the vast majority of these folks are about the money, get it all out of hiding and above boards…

    i’ve thought through my position, and have stated it repeatedly…you appear to offer NO solutions

    i’ll just leave it to the Readers to look through it all, think about it, dig around…and make up their own minds for themselves…

    i’ve stated my position and reasoning over and over right here in this Thread…

    remained consistent and as reasonable as possible, all this while being attacked, insulted and feeble attempts have been made to assassinate my character for simply speaking my mind by trying to put words into my mouth and insinuate i’m some type of racist

    don’t agree, that’s fine, but weak indeed to try and stoop to gutter tactics and outright lies when the actual Record is right in this Thread for all to see

    so, fuck biometric ID’s – use what we have, a single database accessable via the web solves that one

    fuck letting folks just walk in – seal the border as best as is possible so people (including terrorists) can’t just walk across

    fuck criminal businesses that knowing hire illegals – give honest employers that database access, let the Border Patrol do it’s job (North and South)..give them the tools they need…too expensive you say?…check their yearly budget compared to a week or two in Iraq, pure bullshit excuse again

    and fuck those who defend criminal behavior because they make money or otherwise profit from it

    fuck those who exploit hard working people trying to do what they can by keeping them hidden, and illegal for easier exploitation

    clear enough?

    calm enough?

    thoughtful enough?

    got anything else?

    Excelsior?

  • Benito Juarez

    The parable of the two wolves: One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, “My son, the battle is between two “wolves” inside us all. One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith (“faith in me and you”). The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: “Which wolf wins?” The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    well now, let’s have a look at something here…

    this link from Judicial Watch on the topic..like a restaurant submitting 4100 duplicate SSNs for it’s workers

    so spare me the bullshit about “biometric IDs” and other scare tactics…the proof is right in these links, including some that show how simple it is to use the systems in place already

    plenty more links on the subject, here’s one from the Inspector General on the very subject of using SSNs to stop businesses from hiring illegal workers

    need any more, i’ve got them

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    again …more bullshit, still trying to put words into my mouth, and NOT dealing with any of the simple and direct Issues but instead making things up as you go along

    No, I’m just following your ideas to their inevitable conclusions. And I’m not alone in doing this. Have you looked at any of the legislative proposals? They all start out with the objectives you have in mind and end up with
    truly scary rights-destroying implementation.

    i said securing the border…does this mean a wall? …perhaps, but it’s not what i said..it’s something that has to be thought through, and worked out

    If it doesn’t mean a wall, it means more of the bad things I’ve already been over.

    again..rather than apologize for an outright lie, or admit a mistake, you again attempt to place a position on me that i have never taken

    Only because you refuse to follow your simplistic, polyanna ideas through to the conclusion they inevitably lead to.

    simple enough to get rid of the vast majority of illegal workers with what we have at hand, birth certificate and social security cards…

    Completely unreliable documents which I can forge with my home computer and printer and I can even dig up reliable numbers pretty easily using public records.

    say what you will, but the fact is that the vast majority of employers who hire illegals don’t bother to check…i’m certain even in Austin they have those spots to pick up day laborers…any paperwork checked there?

    Of course not. Nor IMO should employers have to do this. Again, you’re shifting all the burdern and all the punishment onto US citizens not onto the lawbreakers.

    those illegal nanny’s…anything checked there? oh, that’s right..all under the table and not reported

    Again, why should the burden be on the employer? Why shouldn’t people feel safe hiring whoever they want to work in their home?

    all i am saying is enforce the laws on the books, prosecute those employers breaking the laws…ensure the government agencies involved follow up and enforce the laws

    And part of what I’m saying is that the laws on the books are somewhat unenforcable and the other part is that you’re making innocent citizens do the government’s work for them under threat of serious punishment. That’s just morally wrong. A housewife hiring a nanny doesn’t have the skills or resources to identify a fake SS card or research a person’s background, but you’d fine her and send her to jail if she trusts the documents she’s given.

    merely taking those steps and prosecuting blatant infractions by employers would stop the vast majority of illegal hirings…make it so that doing so is too risky and the rest will discontinue (with some exceptions) for simple risk management reasons

    And where is the benefit of this? You force the illegals to be more resourceful and make them more desperate and force them into taking jobs from employers who are more unscrupulous, willing to take greater risks, and likely to abuse and exploit them in ways that normal employers would not. You take the current situation and you make it worse for everyone involved.

    you keep changing the goalposts and trying to make shit much more harsh and complicated than it really is…

    No, I’m looking at it realistically, polyanna. You’re not thinking beyond the first step of these measures and totally ignoring the obvious logical outcomes.

    so let me spell it out simply

    enforce the borders – as was put forward earlier, the fence near San Diego has done quite a bit to slow down illegal crossings…finish the job, talk with the Border Patrol..find out what they need, and give it to them…allow the professionals to do their job

    I’m actually fine with this up to a point. I don’t think walls and fences will work in the larger context, but more men on the border and letting them actually shoot people without getting sent to jail for it would have an effect.

    enforce the laws against hiring illegal aliens – my company required a birth certificate copy, my social security card and a drivers license…that’s all, but it’s effective…right now enquiries into social security numbers are halted at the federal level

    Well, there is this little law that was passed in 1955 which makes it illegal to use the SSN as a form of identification, but I guess we can ignore that.

    …simple database checks can easily catch most frauds, implement them..compare that to the birth certificate and you stop the vast majority right there without any kind of onerous new IDs or the other bullshit posited here….our Social Security numbers and birth certificates are all that’s needed,

    There is a REASON the feds want a new ID system and a new nationwide database. The current SSN database doesn’t do a sufficient job and was not designed to identify fraudulent numbers. If the number used is a legitimate number the system isn’t going to catch it, and there are lots of ways to get legitimate numbers.

    as long as employers are allowed to send in the inquiries to make certain they check out…if the employer does that, they are covered and any fraud is totally on the illegal (who would be charged with a crime for using forged federal documents (the SSN) anyway)

    Again, why must the burden of enforcement be placed on the private citizen or employer?


    what is wanted by a criminal is irrelevant…it being a minor crime, as i’ve said, it’s not about punishing them…but i DID state clearly and repeatedly…they come out of hiding, get documented…they go to the back of the line for a green card and or citizenship (which they still need to qualify for, just like everyone else) – the end of the line is their only punishment for entering illegally…their “service” as you call it is bullshit…were they in the military?..no, they were making a living…that is NOT service that is self interest, nice try at spin, but a failure

    They were ‘making a living’ by doing the scut work we don’t want to do and providing opportunities for native born workers to advance themselves, start businesses and grow the economy. And a lot of them DO join the military, of course. Self interest and the best interests of society as a whole are not at odds with each other.

    You’re still making too much of the ‘illegal’ aspect of what they do. I can’t accept the idea that violating a law which is so blatantly contrary to common sense and human rights can be considered a crime. The law is the problem, not the actions of those who violate it.

    as documented aliens, i’m all for allowing them a temporary work papers while they go through the process…as long as they are working…and now they would be covered by all labor laws..pay their taxes and the rest….don’t like it? here’s the door…

    Seems reasonable. It’s not something most of the anti-immigration ideologues seem willing to accept, however. We still have that to contend with.


    i’ve thought through my position, and have stated it repeatedly…you appear to offer NO solutions

    I’ve offered my solution before. It’s simpler, less expensive, and would likely be just as effective. Offer up to 8 million guest worker visas with 3 year terms renewable twice. Allow anyone to get them, giving equal footing to those already here in the US. Expand the number of citizenship applicant slots a moderate amount as well. Do this and you remove the pressure to come here illegally and you provide jobs for enough legal workers to fill most of the demand. The problem of illegals largely goes away as a result, with no need to hasslue citizens and employers.

    remained consistent and as reasonable as possible, all this while being attacked, insulted and feeble attempts have been made to assassinate my character for simply speaking my mind by trying to put words into my mouth and insinuate i’m some type of racist

    I appreciate that you feel defensive on this subject, but the persecution is entirely in your imagination.

    You still don’t understand. The government has clearly stated that the means to achieve what you want is through biometric IDs and a consolidated nationwide database on all citizens. This is the implementation. There isn’t another plan. If you want to track illegals, this is the way the government is GOING to do it. If you don’t want that implementation, then you’re going to need to find an entirely different way to deal with the immigration issue.

    fuck criminal businesses that knowing hire illegals

    Indeed, fuck the construction worker who finds that he can start his own business and develop a business by hiring illegals and becoming a sub-contractor. Fuck the benefits that brings to the economy and the better incomes it gets him and his workers. While we’re at it fuck all the entrepreneurs who find that the high price of starting a business is just a little bit lower because there’s labor available at a fair price that makes it possible to compete with established businesses. Fuck competition, fuck free enterprise, fuck economic growth! Let’s just have monopolies where all workers are unionized and paid an inflated rate. Let’s drive all our jobs overseas, raise the prices of all our goods, send consumers to the poor house and destroy our economy. Why the fuck not?

    give honest employers that database access, let the Border Patrol do it’s job (North and South)..give them the tools they need…too expensive you say?…check their yearly budget compared to a week or two in Iraq, pure bullshit excuse again

    So the fact that we spend enormously too much in Iraq means that it’s okay to waste money everywhere else too? Hell, let’s just give everyone a $2000 tax rebate this year, it’s cheap compared to the cost of Iraq!

    and fuck those who defend criminal behavior because they make money or otherwise profit from it

    Gonzo, I’ve never (knowingly or directly) hired an illegal in my life. I don’t profit from them or make money from them, except in the ways that everyone in society benefits from them because the roads get built and the grass gets watered and the economy grows.

    fuck those who exploit hard working people trying to do what they can by keeping them hidden, and illegal for easier exploitation

    I’ll go with that one. Let’s make them all legal guest workers, have them pay taxes and social security, and let them do the work we need them to do. Let’s not harass small businesses and average citizens in the name of a false sense of security.

    Dave

  • troll

    *Offer up to 8 million guest worker visas with 3 year terms renewable twice. Allow anyone to get them, giving equal footing to those already here in the US.*

    – what about the other (up to) 12 million ‘illegals’ here now – ?

    further – wouldn’t legalizing the ‘guest workers’ make them more expensive and eliminate the benefits to the US economy that you applaud…recreating a black market demand for cheaper labor – ?

    fronteras – ? por que fronteras – ?

  • daryl d

    our leaders have sold this country out and what’s worse: nobody cares. If this was 30 years ago, our citizens would fight back!

  • Jerry

    Dave said:

    “but more men on the border and letting them actually shoot people without getting sent to jail for it would have an effect”.

    And Dave says Gonzo is inconsistent?

  • Jerry

    And Dave, you misconstrue the application of a multifaceted security program. I’m not talking about an intrusive sweeping, nation wide plan, but one that’s specific to the region.

    High security facilities maintain such programs for their limited areas, and the border is a limited area relative to the whole country. If indeed you oppose Biometric ID’s, expansion of FISA and the like, I’m on board.

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    We had a “guest worker” program back in the 40s and 50s. It was plagued by scandal and eventually terminated. Given this administrations affinity for scandal and ineptitude there’s little hope they could create an effective program.

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    Darryl d is right. The pasivity of US citizens is amazing.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    i’m not going to bother to do a line by line, i think it’s been covered well enough…but some appear to have completely skipped over this link i provided to the Inspector General’s report on exactly how to use SSNs to help in this very situation

    nothing draconian, all very doable…and the PDF linked is the full text of his report

    nuff said…

    Excelsior?

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Many US citizens have pressing demands on their time such as the need to earn a living. In fact I’m one of them, so I really should bow out of this argument where everyone else seems to have unlimited time on their hands and unlimited capacity to misconstrue each other’s words in the worst possible light.

    Case in point, take Gonzo’s comment #30. Please.

    Totally unrelated to anything I actually said. So far removed from anything I actually said, it could take days to get the discussion back to somewhere where it might be able to peer through a telescope and see something remotely near anything I ever actually said.

    Unfortunately I just don’t have time for that right now, due to minor personal issues like the need to hold down a full time job and the inability to find an employer who will pay me to do nothing but argue with people online.

    No wonder the powerful who secretly hate liberty always love to harp on the issue of immigration. If it can drive Gonzo (who normally has a very clear grasp of core American principles on most other issues) to this level of distraction, it will be a powerful weapon of mass distraction against the entire electorate for years to come.

    How sad.

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Gonzo:

    Your thinking, rationale, and proposals are sensible, reasoned, practical and based on the Rule of Law.

    You will never convince those whose arguments are none of the above.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    Victor..my apologies indeed if i have misconstrued what you were trying to say…such is not my intent

    it had seemed that you were making the argument that borders were meaningless…hence my comment(which could have been unduly harsh due to mistaking intent from you)

    #36 hits on my reasoning here.. i’m not against those folks trying to better themselves..i’m against this entire black market labor systemic that keeps millions of people under the table and off the radar…making less than minimum wage, with NO protections…

    i’m all for finding a way to get it sorted out, but my thinking is that you have to stop this black market, and control the border…all the while working with those already in the country to get out of the shadows, get documented and become part of the legal workforce with all the rights, responsibilities and protection therein

    i just think that to do so, we have to ensure that we stop the flood, and create a policy that controls the influx of legal immigrants

    also that those who have come here illegally should not be granted rewards ahead of those who are following the rules

    hope that helps explain

    Excelsior?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    just to clarify, Victor had said , “Gonzo, it is morally contradictory to give the “sanctity” of an imaginary line on a map higher importance than the freedom of human beings to choose where to live and where to work.”

    this was what had read to me as if a Nation had no right to enforce their borders if people who are not citizens chose to enter the country illegally because they chose where to work

    i think many could see how i would take it that way…

    Excelsior?

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    The words you quoted from me do not come anywhere near claiming borders are “meaningless.” I made a clear statement of priorities, not a statement of nullification.

    And that’s all I have time to clarify for now.

    But for the record, I accept the spirit of your apology, Gonzo, even though no apology is needed. This issue has been subjected to so much deliberate obfuscation by the powerful, it’s understandably difficult for people of good will to achieve clarity even when we want to engage in honest debate.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    Victor – i understand..and am more than willing to talk with you about all this , as reasonable people trying to understand and find a solution, as your time allows

    and i have NO problems giving my Apology to those who are reasonable and trying in good faith…especially if my infamous temper flared on them undeservingly

    it’s exactly my desire to cut through all the bullshit that gets me fired up…not that i had thought you were doing so, but the way i took your statement appears as i have said…

    no worries, be well and all my Best to you and yours

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    *Offer up to 8 million guest worker visas with 3 year terms renewable twice. Allow anyone to get them, giving equal footing to those already here in the US.*

    – what about the other (up to) 12 million ‘illegals’ here now – ?

    I’ve seen zero evidence that there are more than 12 million total illegals here. 8 million visas would cover the needs of most of those who want to come here as temporary workers. The remainder are likely those who want to stay here on a more permanent basis. They should be dealt with through an expanded citizenship quota and as gonzo points out, probably sent to the back of the line, but given a guarantee of citizenship.

    There is no indication that we would have a flood of additional immigrants if we liberalized our guest worker policies. There are only so many people in Mexico who want and need to come here to work. Most of them want to eventually go back, and others will replace them when they do.

    further – wouldn’t legalizing the ‘guest workers’ make them more expensive and eliminate the benefits to the US economy that you applaud…recreating a black market demand for cheaper labor -

    I don’t see it. As illegals they’re getting paid over minimum wage in most cases. Only the dregs of the illegal population are doing day labor, and although highly visible they are a tiny fraction of the total. Most are in semi-skileld jobs that pay $10 an hour or more even taking into consideraton the 20% less that illegals get paid on average. Illegals working reconstruction in New Orleans are getting $15 an hour right now. The wages are largely set by the market, not the fact that they’re illegal.

    It’s also important to remember that it’s not just illegals working these jobs. There are also probably 3-5 million uderground economy native workers – mostly ex convicts – who choose not to be paid on the books in most cases and work many of the same kinds of jobs the illegals do.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    “but more men on the border and letting them actually shoot people without getting sent to jail for it would have an effect”.

    And Dave says Gonzo is inconsistent?

    Jerry, I never said I was against border enforcement. Gonzo and I have more common ground than you or he realize.

    And Dave, you misconstrue the application of a multifaceted security program. I’m not talking about an intrusive sweeping, nation wide plan, but one that’s specific to the region.

    What you’re talking about is a bit unclear. Everyone else who’s trying to set policy on this is talking about a huge, intrusive big brother type plan because that’s the only thing which will really work. Illegals don’t just get jobs at the borders. They travel all over the country where there is work.

    We had a “guest worker” program back in the 40s and 50s. It was plagued by scandal and eventually terminated. Given this administrations affinity for scandal and ineptitude there’s little hope they could create an effective program.

    Bliffle, that program was administered by the Mexican government. No matter how bad this administration is they’re still nowhere near that level of corruption and incompetence. In that program the mexican government acted as labor brokers and skimmed money from the income of the workers so they didn’t earn enough to make it worth participating in. A terrible idea. All I’m proposing is a system where workers get a work visa and find jobs themselves at the best wages they can get and no one else takes a cut.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Dave, Wrong as usual. The program was NOT administered by the Mexican government, but by the US government!

    At some point they SUPPOSEDLY turned over the money that the wrokers had paid over the years into a quasi-retirement fund. The Mexican government said they never got it. Wells Frago Bank is implicated somewhere in there–and considering they stole my trust fund when I moved to Mexico, as well as 200,000 bucks from the money market fund of one of my friends, I am inclined to suspect the wrost from EVERYBODY.

    As for the person who complained about the Mexicanization of his town–you’ll get no grease for your wheel from me. What about all those Mexicans cross the Southwesy who saw their towns stolen by the US government and Anglicized?

    I guess it’s payback time. Start learning Spanish, pinche gringo.

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    Wells fargo was more than implicated, they sponsored the ‘retirement’ program and collected the money. Where is it, one may ask? the US gov has never tried to solve the problem and the civil courts in both countries bury it.

    Dave: “…the Mexican government. No matter how bad this administration is they’re still nowhere near that level of corruption …”

    Why do you say that? Same cronyism, election fixing, monopolies, favoritism. We just haven’t been doing it at the same rate, but this administration has accelerated the pace to the point that we may never recover. Future admins have been shown the way: lie, loot and steal and there are no consequences (well, except for those slackers who can’t afford to speculate on healthcare insurance policies, in which case we’ll kill their children with neglect. Now those are consequences).

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    Anyway, the illegal immigrant problem cannot be solved in Washington or even on the mighty blogs of BC, but only in Mexico City D.F.

    Decades of careless neglect of our neighbors are coming back to haunt us. And now we have lost whatever credibility we had with this malevolent administration, which stirs up resentment wherever it goes.

    Blame it all on Bush, if you like, because in 2000 he said “no country is more important to us than Mexico” and then set about to totally neglect Mexico except for photo-ops with Fox.

    Blame it all on Clinton, if you like, who failed to use the opportunity to forward an aggressive program with Mexico to improve their government and the fortunes of their people.

    Blame it on Reagan, blame it on Carter, blame it on Bliffle, if you like. Just recognize that the strength and prosperity of our latin american neighbors is essential to the USA, and with a little effort from a leadership that is truly interested in the future of the USA, we can make them stronger and more effective allies.

  • Clavos

    “Blame it on Reagan, blame it on Carter, blame it on Bliffle, if you like. Just recognize that the strength and prosperity of our latin american neighbors is essential to the USA, and with a little effort from a leadership that is truly interested in the future of the USA, we can make them stronger and more effective allies.” (emphasis added)

    Absolutely true. Every word.

  • Nancy

    MR et al: the Wells Fargo money probably ended up in US government (or high connections) hands, which is why the courts/US govt does nothing to investigate/prosecute. It’s called stonewalling.

  • troll

    blame it on Polk for not absorbing Mexico into the Union

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    see..i like the way troll’s mind works…let’s annex them!!

    Mexico would be a couple of states…Puerto Rico..as many of the Caribbean isles as want to join up…work our way down central America

    hey, it’s a thought

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Polk had very sound reasons for not annexing Mexico and they still apply. It would cost more money to administer and support economically than it would be worth as an asset for the country. So he chose to keep the best parts and let the rest go back to the dictator of the week club.

    That said, I think that the creation of an increasing US role in Mexico is one of the best ways to stop illegal immigration. If we can use our money and influence to improve their government and their economy then they will have less need to come here. Of course, letting a good number of them come here to work and send money home is a good start on doing that.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “Polk had very sound reasons for not annexing Mexico and they still apply.”

    Polk didn’t know about their oil. Even if he had, it wasn’t as important then as now.

  • troll

    I suspect that Polk didn’t want Mexico because it was full of brown people who talked Spanish and other funny languages lots of whom like indigenous folk everywhere would just have to be exterminated

  • Jerry

    Come caca jodida, MR

  • SonnyD

    Dave: Help me understand what you are saying here. It would be too much of a imposition to expect employers to do a simple background check to find out if a prospective employee is here legally? Then shouldn’t we do away with currant laws that force anyone who wants to sell a gun at a business, flea market or gun show to do a background check? Certainly, it must be too much of a burden on the citizen who is just trying to make a living selling guns to have to take a few minutes to check a computer database.

    If we can establish a site that says who is not allowed to own a gun, why can’t we have a site that says who is here legally? Wouldn’t all the background checking be done before they were allowed to enter?

    Your view on labor unions is quite interesting, to say the least. You are aware of why unions began, aren’t you? Wasn’t it to do away with the very sort of mistreatment the illegal immigrants are being subjected to now?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I suspect that Polk didn’t want Mexico because it was full of brown people who talked Spanish and other funny languages lots of whom like indigenous folk everywhere would just have to be exterminated

    I doubt Polk would have had any problems with that. He was after all, Andrew Jackson’s protege and Jackson established the democratic party’s tradition of sticking it to the red, black, brown and other ethnic groups including the occasional British spy.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Dave: Help me understand what you are saying here. It would be too much of a imposition to expect employers to do a simple background check to find out if a prospective employee is here legally?

    Not only is it a paperwork imposition on merchants, but it violates the rights of every citizen who is entitled to a certain amount of personal privacy and doesn’t need to have his employer snooping through his private records maintained in a giant government database.

    Then shouldn’t we do away with currant laws that force anyone who wants to sell a gun at a business, flea market or gun show to do a background check?

    Absolutely. But current laws don’t require everyone at a flea market or gun show to do a background check, they only require it of registered dealers. Private citizens who only go to such shows occasionally can sell guns without running background checks. That’s a reasonable compromise.

    In terms of emigration that’s equivalent to only requiring compaies of a certain size to do background checks.

    Certainly, it must be too much of a burden on the citizen who is just trying to make a living selling guns to have to take a few minutes to check a computer database.

    I’m glad that you, me and Charlton Heston agree on this.

    If we can establish a site that says who is not allowed to own a gun, why can’t we have a site that says who is here legally? Wouldn’t all the background checking be done before they were allowed to enter?

    The gun background check database has been demonstrated not to work terribly well. Lots of documented cases of felons and loonies passing the check and buying guns.

    For a system like this to really work the key is, unfortunately, maintaining better and more complete information on every citizen. The gun background check system keeps track of bad guys. For an employment database system to work, since you have no idea who the illegals are or what they have done, you have to take the opposite approach and keep detailed info on all the innocent, legal citizens. Government monitoring of the innocent is what I most object to.

    Dave

    Your view on labor unions is quite interesting, to say the least. You are aware of why unions began, aren’t you? Wasn’t it to do away with the very sort of mistreatment the illegal immigrants are being subjected to now?

  • SonnyD

    Dave: The gun background check is still a work in progress. Too many states were not reporting the criminal records they should been. Recent events have been a wake-up call and that is supposed to be improved soon. The principle of the system is still the same. You are assuming I was suggesting that the government maintain records on all citizens. I was not. Millions of immigrants have been allowed in legally. We must have some kind of records on who they are and why they are here.

    Citizens applying for a job would have to go through more red tape than they do now. Yes, they would bitch about it, just as they are now when they try to get a passport. But that is the only alternative to letting the government keep detailed records on all of us. Yes, it would be a real headache to put such a system into place, but it could be done. People would adjust to keeping the kinds of records they would need to produce before they could be hired.

  • SonnyD

    Dave: You seem to be confused about who can sell guns at flea markets and gun shows. Only registered dealers can sell modern hand guns and they must all do background checks.

  • moonraven

    Jerry,

    I see you do not have the brain agility necessary to learn another language.

    Kiss your place in the sun good-bye, baby.

  • moonraven

    As an update to the “guest worker” scheme:

    Since the US pressured Mexico to accept responsibility for the retirement fund, they have been paying folks off–one by one–after a mountain of forms are filled out (some of those folks are illiterate).

    They are paying them off one by one because most of them have reached the end of their lifetimes.

    And they are paying them a little less than 3,500 dollars apiece! An absolute pittance.

    Surviving family members are suing to try to get the right to the benefits.

    Nancy,

    Please do not condescend to me. I worked actively against the Nixon presidency and am fully aware of the meaning of the term, stonewall.

  • Nancy

    Some of us do have trouble learning other languages, MR. Just like some of us have trouble with math, & some with writing or speaking in public. While I admire those who can acquire other languages handily, I don’t think mocking those who are less gifted is productive of anything, MR. You & Clavos appear to be the only fluent Spanish-speakers here; please translate for those of us who don’t or can’t. Thank you.

  • moonraven

    Nancy,

    Jerry’s post to which I referred was potty talk strung together in a way that made no sense. But its intention was to insult me.

    Insults, I believe, fall under the heading of “personal attacks”–which only males on this site are encouraged to make, since the Comments Editor is male and he is one of the most flagrant makers of personal attacks against women posters–especially me.

    If Jerry is going to insult me in my second language he needs to learn it first.

    It’s not a question of mocking the less gifted–after all, foreign language acquisition IS something I routinely train teachers to do–and I do not recommend mocking.

    I also do not recommend to students that they immediately run out with an extremely precarious grasp of the language and start using it to insult people.

    In a non-virtual space they would rapidly find the shit beaten out of them.

    Maybe even by ME.

    As is frequent with you, you jumped in without knowing anything about the issue.

  • Nancy

    I do know that most of us don’t speak Spanish, & it would be more polite for you to either translate or use English instead of private conversations no one else except Clavos can understand. I don’t know what you’ve said in any of your Spanish postings. If I were privy to any language you didn’t understand, would YOU care to have ME making private comments nobody else understood in that language in a public forum? It would be just as rude for me to do that to you as it is for you to do that to me/the rest of us. Thank you.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Nancy, time for you to prepare to be called a ‘racist’ and be told that you aren’t entitled to have an opinion on Mexico.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    By MR? Ho-hum; after dinner I’ll faint.

  • Jerry

    Nancy –

    You don’t know how much I just laughed… if you had only written she’ll instead of I’ll. Darn!

  • http://LesPaulisanexcellentguitarplayerwithanadmirablegraspofgoodjazz. bliffle

    It’s the duty and the opportunity for the USA to assume a leadership role in leading latin america to good government and prosperity. We have the strength and the experience to do it.

    It’s our Manifest Destiny.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Did I hear the spirit of Jingo Jim Blaine speaking with Bliffle’s lips?

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    i think it was sarcasm…eh?

    and for those comfortable speaking a language besides English here on BC, and who think that’s just fine…i’ve something to say to people like yourselves…

    ayeeee-yah! dew neh loh moh…

    heh

    Excelsior?

  • Nancy

    Glad I could give you a smile, Jerry.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Ya neznayu, tovarisch gonzo.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    bolshoyeh!…spasebaw..

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    dani, pizda i toja kak tvoi mat ka vam, gonzo.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    ya ran me out of my meager Russian…

    i have a bunch of snippets in many languages that i know…in others i can get by from hearing it

    hence my using Cantonese, and having bits of Russian…among others, but no real fluency (well, german if i am immersed for a week or two to get my vocabulary back)

    but i digress…

    Excelsior?

  • Dr Dreadful

    Bozhe moi! Duraki!