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Immigration Bill Fails as Polls Show Americans Rejecting Nativism

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Extremists and nativists have been very vocal in opposing the immigration bill and will likely claim victory now that Congress has shelved it for renegotiation. The bill was certainly terribly flawed. It was a mish-mash of half measures and poorly thought out programs which would cost too much and do too little.

But the opponents of the bill mostly made the argument that the American people did not want 'amnesty' as offered by the bill, suggesting that the people want to throw illegals out and build a wall to keep them there. However, despite all their loud and angry rhetoric, poll after poll conducted in the past year has shown that they are just dead wrong. The only people who nativist blowhards like Lou Dobbs are actually speaking for are other extremists like themselves.

Starting last spring, before the debate over the immigration bill was in full swing, a poll from Time Magazine showed a willingness by the public to accept the idea of putting immigrants on a track to citizenship – and overwhelming support for the idea of a guest worker program to provide for the nation's labor needs. This poll showed almost exactly the kind of conflicted public opinion which was reflected in the immigration bill, with a majority of those polled supporting heightened border security, but even larger numbers supporting legalization of illegal immigrants and a generous guest worker programs. Overall, 79% of those polled supported a guest worker program and 78% supported a citizenship path for current illegals if they met simple requirements like learning English. A total of 62% supported strong border enforcement, while only 47% supported mass deportation of illegals.

Now that the debate has heated up, all  the shouting and fearmongering seems not to have had much effect. People are still basically opposed to extreme measures against immigrants and in favor of legalization and guest worker programs. Last month a New York Times poll showed 65% of independents, 66% of Republicans and 72% of Democrats supporting a path to citizenship for illegal aliens. It shows even stronger support for a guest worker program.

The very latest poll from the Washington Post, taken last week, shows that public support for more sensible immigration policies is still strong, with 52% of the general public supporting legal citizenship for illegals and 64% supporting a guest worker program. Interestingly, the same poll suggests that most Americans do not think that immigration is quite the pressing issue nativists would have us believe, ranking it below the Iraq war, the economy, gas prices, terrorism, health care and other concerns.

And lest you think that only left-leaning sources are getting these kinds of results in polls, similar surveys have been carried out by the Wall Street Journal and Fox News, both of which identified significant majorities favoring giving legal status to illegal immigrants, either as guest workers or as eventual citizens with some reasonable restrictions.

Studies have shown much greater support for liberal immigration policies among lawmakers than among the public, yet despite this, the immigration bill failed to pass the Senate, suggesting that the problem with the bill is more profound than the so-called amnesty deal which it contains. Objections were raised against the bill from both the Left and the Right, focusing on both the impracticality of its enforcement provisions and the inadequacy of its programs to deal with the obvious need for immigrants in our labor force. Ultimately it was the issue of the guest worker program which broke the bill, which was essentiallly killed by an amendment which would have gutted the already incredibly inadequate guest worker program and rendered it worthless. The addition of even more restrictions on guest workers was the final straw of worthlessness which broke the camel's back.

This does not mean that immigration reform has gone away. The bill will bounce back quickly in a revised form, and we'll start the debate all over again. But we have learned things in this process, and we ought to keep them in mind. Chief among those lessons is that while the nativists are loud and braying, they do not represent the mindset of the American people who are mostly in favor of legalizing illegals and welcoming guest workers. Equally importantly, we need to remember that while this may be a top issue for the John Birch Society and Lou Dobbs, most Americans have other more serious concerns on their minds. It would be nice if  Congress and the media stopped pandering to the nativists and paid some attention to the rest of us.

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://happyhunter.iblog.com SCFMH

    Good article. Another take on the subject can be found here:

  • Deb

    Nativists we are not – AMERICANS WE ARE !!

    I don’t know where you got those poll numbers but if you ask everyday people, almost no one is for amnesty for the illegals. Noboday polled me. It also depends on the exact wording of the polls and how the results are analyzed. I highly doubt 3/4 of American is in agrrement with amnesty.

  • RRTatlow

    Polls can be designed to produce any outcome. Attempting to prove a point with polls sponsored by three very liberal media is like juggling a handful of water! A little diversity, please!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “I highly doubt 3/4 of American is in agrrement with amnesty.”

    Did you not read the article??

    Did you not see the poll results quoted therein??

    Where are YOUR facts??

  • Lumpy

    NYT, WaPo and TIME aren’t exactly obscure sources and this isn’t a left vs right issue either. Some of the most apalling nativist drivel I’ve seen has been on lefty sites where nativism seems to go hand in hand with protectionism. No matter how high u crank the volume of yur ranting u can’t drown out the good sense of the people.

  • ron

    For those who have not read the details of this bill, I strongly suggest you take some time and do so. Otherwise in another 10 or 15 years your children and grand children will be asking what the heck were you doing when this legislation was passed and why we did not do something about it. More sinister details about this immigration bill are here for those interested. I read this and said GOD SAVE OUR COUNTRY. If all of us don’t wake up and do something, these politicians will turn this great land into a third world dumpster pretty soon.

    Article

    ————————-

    27 reasons this bill should be killed:
    THE LIST
    1. Security doesn’t come first in this bill. This bill would immediately legalize illegal aliens that are currently in the country. The only way Congress will actually see to it that the border security and enforcement provisions in the bill will be implemented is if they have to do them before they even consider an amnesty for the people who are here.
    2. Illegal aliens won’t have to pay back taxes where do we get the same deal? The whole idea that illegal aliens shouldn’t have to pay the taxes they already owe for working in the United States is utterly and completely offensive because it actually gives them a privilege that American citizens aren’t getting: forgiveness for taxes owed to the IRS.
    3. If passed, this bill will make taxpayers pay the legal bills for illegal aliens seeking amnesty. Tucked away on page 317 is a provision that would allow lawyers in the federally-funded legal services program to represent illegal aliens, which they are presently barred from doing.
    4. This bill rewards illegal aliens for breaking our laws. There are tens of millions of people who respect our laws and our country, waiting patiently, in line, often in their home countries, to get a chance to come here. Under this bill, illegal aliens will immediately be eligible for a “Z Visa” which allows them to work, go to school, and this is important stay here for the rest of their lives if they so choose because there is no limit on the number of times it can be renewed.
    5. The bill gives the government only one business day to conduct a background check to determine whether an applicant is a criminal or a terrorist. It is impossible, of course, to determine in a single day whether someone is a terrorist or a criminal.

    6. In the bill Section 601(g)(2), illegal-alien gang members would be eligible for amnesty merely by signing a “renunciation of gang affiliation.”
    7. Gang-bangers and other criminals, who have been ordered to leave the United States by an immigration judge but defy the ruling, are called absconders. Section 601(d)(1)(I) permits U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services to grant an absconder a Z visa anyway if he can show that being forced to leave the United States “would result in extreme hardship” to the alien, his spouse, parent or child.
    8. The bill effectively shuts down our immigration-court system. If an alien in the removal process is eligible for the Z visa, the immigration judge must close the proceedings and offer the alien the chance to apply for the amnesty.
    9. If ICE officials apprehend an alien who appears eligible for the Z visa (in other words, just about any illegal alien), they can’t detain him. Instead, ICE must help him apply for the Z visa.
    Rather than initiating removal proceedings, ICE will be initiating amnesty applications. It’s like turning the Drug Enforcement Agency into a needle-distribution network.
    10. To qualify for the Z-visa amnesty, an illegal alien need only have a job (or be the parent, spouse, or child of someone with a job) and come up with a scrap of paper suggesting he was in the country before Jan. 1 of this year. Any bank statement, pay stub, or similarly forgeable record will do.
    Expect a mass influx unlike anything this country has seen before, once the 12-month period for accepting Z visa applications begins. These rules are an open invitation to sneak in and present a fraudulent piece of paper indicating that you were already here.

    11. As promised, the bill will legalize most of the 12 million to 20 million illegal aliens now in the country via a new “Z visa.” Each would pay $3,000 – only slightly more than the going rate to be smuggled into America. This is not up front. They will have eight years to pay it back.
    12. Supporters of the bill call the Z visa “temporary” – neglecting to mention that it can be renewed indefinitely until the visa holder dies. Thus, we have the country’s first permanent temporary visa. On top of that, it’s a super-visa – allowing the holder to work, attend college or do just about anything else.
    Are you a law-abiding alien who’s interested in switching to this privileged status? Sorry. Only illegal aliens can qualify.

    13. The bill increases legal migration by at least 50 percent over the next decade by granting green cards to all the remote relatives who are in the chain migration categories, a number estimated at 750,000 to 900,000 a year. That is triple the current number of 250,000. Giving green cards to millions of additional relatives ensures that legal immigration will continue to grow as this larger pool of permanent residents brings in spouses.
    14. The bill claims that bench marks must be met before amnesty/guest-worker provisions go into effect. But the bench marks fail to require that the U.S.-Mexico border be closed, fail to require that the border fence be completed as mandated by Congress in October and fail to require that the Department of Homeland Security implement the entry-exit visa system so Americans can know if visitors and guest workers actually leave.
    The border security part of the bill calls for a 370-mile-long fence on the U.S./Mexico border. That is only half as long as the 700-mile-long fence ordered by the Secure Fence Act passed overwhelmingly by Congress and ostentatiously signed by the president in front of TV cameras just before the November 2006 election.

    15. Another bench mark is that “tools” will be provided to prevent illegal immigrants from getting jobs, including requirements for identification standards and an employee verification system. But the bill lacks a requirement that anybody actually use the tools.
    16. The costs of the Senate immigration bill are mind-boggling. Unbelievably, the Senate has made no attempt to estimate this costs or how to how to pay them. The Heritage Foundation’s Robert Rector puts a potential price tag on this bill of $2.5 trillion, which is five times the cost of the Iraq war.
    17. At least 60 percent of illegal immigrants lack a high school diploma, which means they will work low-wage jobs, pay little or no income tax, and be heavy users of our schools and means-tested social benefits such as Medicaid, school lunches, Women, Infants and Children Program, subsidized housing, the Earned Income Tax Credit, and free legal counsel.
    18. Fiscal costs would go up dramatically after amnesty recipients reach retirement. Each elderly low-skill immigrant imposes a net cost – that is benefits minus taxes – on U.S. taxpayers of about $17,000 per year, according to the Heritage Foundation. These costs would hit Social Security and Medicare at the very time Social Security is expected to go into crisis.
    19. Section 413 calls on Congress to “accelerate the implementation” of the Security and Prosperity Partnership – announced by Bush in Waco, Texas, in 2005 – so that the United States can “improve the standard of living in Mexico.” Do U.S. taxpayers want to take on the awesome economic burden of solving poverty problems in Mexico?
    20. The Senate immigration bill states that the United States want to increase access to credit for “poor and under-served populations in Mexico,” and expand efforts “to reduce the transaction costs of remittance flows” from the U.S. to Mexico now running at $23 billion a year. That is money made in the US but transferred out of our economy.

    21. The Senate bill also puts the United States into a “partnership” with Mexico for “increasing health care access for poor and under-served populations in Mexico,” for “assisting Mexico in increasing its emergency and trauma health care facilities,” and for “expanding prenatal care” in the border region. Do U.S. taxpayers want to take on the awesome economic burden of solving problems in Mexico?
    22. The Senate bill authorizes 4,000 new Border Patrol agents, but doesn’t require that they be trained or deployed.
    23. Illegal Aliens will receive instate tuition. Illegal aliens would receive a taxpayer subsidy worth tens of thousands of dollars and would be treated better than U.S. citizens from out of state, who must pay three to four times as much to attend college. In an era of limited educational resources and rising tuitions, U.S. citizens, not aliens openly violating federal law, should be first in line to receive education subsidies.
    24.Health standards ignored – Z-Visa holders are not required to be given medical examinations and immunizations. Z-Visa applicants and permenant residents are two peas off the same pod. Both can live in the USA as long as they want. Permenant residents are required to be given a medical examination and immunized but Z-Visa holders are not. All aliens, including Z-Visa holders should be required to be given medical examinations and immunized. They are living and breathing in our country just as permanent residents. The health and safety issues are one and the same. TB or Leprosy anyone?

    25.”There are no serious assimilation components to the legislation.” Dual citizenship, naturalized Americans voting here and overseas, non-English classrooms and multilingual ballots all thrive, despite McCain-Kennedy’s “comprehensive” scope. “Assimilation” appears only once in this legislation, and not until the 343rd of 347 pages. “Americanization” never emerges.
    26. The amnestee doesn’t have to know squat in English to get probationary status or a Z visa. After four years when seeking to renew the Z visa the first time, he only has to take not pass, just take the naturalization language test or be on a waiting list for English classes. “Learn English” only happens after eight years, and then it’s not actual mastery of the language.
    27. As stated above in #13 “The bill increases legal migration by at least 50 percent over the next decade….”. Yet, when asked in a Gallup poll what level of immigration do Americans want, overwhelmingly they say less (46%) or same (34%). While only 16% want more. The US Census Bureau in 1999 projected The USA’s population will double in less then 100 years from 300 million to 600 million. The majority of that increase will be from legal immigration, illegal immigration, plus both their descendants. This is completely against what the American people want. When do we start double decking our freeways Mr. President?

  • Jose E Menez

    Senior Nalle…does it again…

    Lies and the liars who tell them…The polls show a left wing magazine asked a bunch of idiots question and made up the poll answers to justify this nonsense…

    the reason that this bill is failing is that Americans OVERWHELMINGLY do not want ILLEGAL aliens dictating US policy and side stepping our laws

  • Stanley Wayne Gron
  • Dr Dreadful

    #6, #8: Isn’t cut-and-paste a wonderful thing? (So are copyright laws.)

    Perhaps you should learn some HTML coding instead of cluttering up the site.

    Or better still, try using your own words.

  • daryl d

    Once again, polls are skewed towards the results they want. All the sources you named, Dave, are extremist liberal sources. I have not met ANYBODY, liberal or conservative, that supports a blanket amnesty.

  • AWinthrop

    Some Senators, Open-Borders and Amnesty advocates want to increase the U.S. population by more than 100 million people within 10 years by misleading Americans with their “comprehensive” immigration reform. Our vile conspiratorial senators had to sneak behind close doors to plot treason with Open-Border and Amnesty Organizations and Business interests. They mean to slowly decimate our country. The Congressional Budget office reported to the senators, that ONLY 25% of criminal invasion would be stopped with this bill. That by issuing Z-cards, an infinite number will converge on America and in their wake they will literally destroy her environment. (that’s the entire southern border) The Heritage Foundation reported to the Senate that it would cost American tax payers a Trillion plus, yes that’s with a T, and that America would bankrupt , therefore becoming a 3rd World Country.

    BILL S. 1348 IS NOT DEAD.. Americans asked for Secured Borders and Enforcement. So Bush/Kennedy/Kyl/Chambliss/Isakson decided to hold AMERICA’S SECURITY HOSTAGE unless we agree to give them Amnesty. They haven’t and have no intention of securing our borders and enforcing our laws. They have sold out to the Foreign Nationalists that marched on America’s streets demanding AMNESTY and immigration reform. That is who this fraudulent and treasonous bill was written for. Senators that support this bill, which supports this constant crime wave from Mexico, are ENEMIES OF THIS NATION. They are criminally negligent in their duty to uphold the Laws already on the books and have transgressed on their oath of office.. The opponents of this fraud are NOT Anti-immigrant, Anti-American, bigots, nor are we racists. We are the American majority that demands our voices and wishes be heard. We elected them to watch over our welfare, not for disingenuous blather, Saxby Chambliss states, ” But you can’t make decisions by putting a finger to the wind” (translation: I don’t listen to my constituents, because my buddies and I know more then the ignorant voters) or “Some of us have to lead, even if it’s not in our best interest”. Stop insulting our intelligence, you have been bought or sold rancid meat. WAKE UP AMERICA before these deceitful men sell our country to special interests groups. You have been Betrayed. Write your senator now and make him understand, that he will NEVER BE FORGIVEN FOR BETRAYING THIS NATION. check with Alipac to see who the traitors are. (I’m not being over dramatic. We truly are loosing our beloved America)

  • daryl d

    Dave:

    Just curious: where do you live? If you lived in Southern California, you would see that there are many of these people here illegally that HATE our country and are just here to take advantage of the “benefits.” I tought public schools with a huge number of illegal immigrant students. Not only did they not value education, but they wrote stuff like “Mecha” and “La Raza” all over textbooks that taxpayers pay for.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    All the sources you named, Dave, are extremist liberal sources.

    “Extremist?”

    We can debate all day whether Time Magazine, The New York Times, and the Washington Post have some sort of liberal bias, but to suggest that they are extremist is completely ludicrous and pretty much negates your credibility on the subject.

    Unless, of course, you can demonstrate examples of extremist rhetoric in any of those sources.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Actually, the head of Gallup, after looking at the data, realized why the conclusions were all wrong: when he looked at people who were actually paying attention to the debate, and who knew what was actually in the bill, he found they were overwhelmingly opposed – by 3-to-1 margins, in fact. It is the half or so who aren’t paying attention – perhaps the 50% of the people who don’t bother to vote – who said they support it.

    And if the bill is so damn popular, then why did it go down in flames? If it’s so damn popular, why are our politicians wanting to get it done long before the next elections, rather than, say, the month before?

    And if it’s so damn popular, then why have so many Democrats up for re-election next year in conservative states suddenly switched sides? Landrieu, Rockefeller, Baucus, and Pryor all voted for last year’s amnesty bill, but are suddenly opposed to it now.

    That’s right: when the real-world data don’t validate your conclusions, you can always just point to a (deliberately?) skewed poll.

    Oh, and if people are so opposed to “extreme measures” then where was the popular uprising after the IFCO and Swift raids? Except for leftist interest groups and neofeudalist business groups, there were no complaints at all.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Obviously, very few of the commenters on this thread actually read the article, because if they had, they would know that the author did not say support the Bill currently before Congress.

    On the contrary, Mr. Nalle points out that the Bill is terribly flawed, and that that’s precisely reason why it is failing in Congress. He even says that it should fail in it’s present form.

    What he also says, for those of you who won’t, or can’t read with comprehension, is that the majority of the American people support some form of legalization of the illegal population.

    That’s it. And that’s a fact. Numerous polls have shown that fact, repeatedly, as Nalle mentions (and links) in the article.

    I live in Miami, a city where 2 of every 3 people are Latino immigrants; both legal and illegal. I am one of the minority, though born in Latin America (Mexico) and with dual citizenship, I am an Anglo.

    Those of you who are afraid of the brown hordes are simply being xenophobic, just like the people in the USA who faced the hordes of Eastern Europeans were xenophobic about them, at the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth centuries:

    They “were filthy,” they didn’t “assimilate,” they “were disease ridden,” “didn’t learn the language,” etc. etc. All these things and more were said about the Italians, the Irish, the Poles, Germans, Hungarians, Armenians, Greeks; in short, all the people who are now the Senators and Congresspeople, the church leaders and captains of industry; the teachers, the heroes of WW I and WW II, the firemen, farmers, community leaders.

    Foreigners then; Americans now.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Darryl, I live in Texas and I do hear again and again that the immigrants in SoCal are somehow magically different from the ones we get here. Apparently there’s a fork in the road somewhere in northern Mexico where Yacatecutli directs traffic and sends all the good Mexicans down the right fork and all the evil ones down the left fork. It seems unlikely, but that’s Aztec gods for you.

    Clavos. Everything you said was dead on, of course. Glad someone actually read the article.

    S. W. Gron. Regarding the lengthy paper by Beck and Camarota which you appropriated (and I’m about to turn into a link). I actually used that as one of my minor sources for the article, and it’s obliquely referred to in the second to last paragraph. What they don’t adequately consider is that the elites who hold a more liberal position on immigration are more knowledgable on the subject from the standpoint of economics and society than the general public. What you fail to consider is that the Center for Immigration Studies which they are writing for is an extreme right-wing anti-immigration group, so they’re hardly likely to be unbiased. And the facts remain the facts. The public DOES still favor amnesty for illegals and a guest worker program by a substantial majority.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Built by the labor of aliens under a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy.

    Dave

  • Netram

    Dave Nalle, I have just one poll for you.

    Gallup’s annual (2005) update on immigration from June polling finds that 46% of Americans say they want the level of immigration into the country decreased. About a third (34%) say they want immigration kept at its present level, and 16% want it increased. These views are little changed from last year.

    I could come up with many other polls that offer the same basic results but I wanted to post a well known, neutral organization so you could not negate it for being from a conservative or unknown source.

    The US population will double in less then one hundred years from 300 million to 600 million with no end in site after that, according to the US Census Bureau. The overwhelming majority of that astronomic rise will be from liberal immigration policies, massive illegal immigration, and their descendants.

    Our immigration policies go completely against what the will of the American people want. Do you care about the quality of life in the country? What does the equation of finite resources and a doubling of the population tell you? I assume you are a liberal Democrat. Do you care about our environment? Do you like the idea of double decking all our roads and highways to prepare for the influx in the population? Does your compassion for “immigrants” blind you to the destiny your point of view will lead us to?

    Do you want less immigration or more? A simple question deserves a simple answer.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Netram,

    The Gallup poll you cite is two years old; dated July, 2005. It has little, if any, bearing on the mood of the public today.

    Nevertheless here’s a quote from your Gallup poll:

    “The June 6-25 poll finds 6 in 10 Americans (61%) saying immigration is a good thing for this country today, while only a third (34%) say it is a bad thing. Gallup found roughly the same results in 2001 and 2003, but Americans were slightly more negative in the first post-9/11 poll (June 2002), when 52% said immigration was a good thing and 42% said it was a bad thing.” (emphasis added)

    The Census Bureau “press Release” you cite is a fake, and not even a good one. It’s clearly a crude and amateurish cut-and-paste job using a genuine Census Bureau header and footer; everything in between (the “press release”) is obviously fake. Its spuriousness is in addition to the fact that it’s dated seven years ago.

    Nice try, compadre.

    But those dogs won’t hunt.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Netram, you bring up a Gallup poll from two years ago and say that 46% opposing expanded immigration and 50% supporting keeping it at the same level or expanding it means the american people are against immigration? Come again? 46% is a minority and 50% is a majority. Your own figures contradict your conclusion.

    I could come up with many other polls that offer the same basic results but I wanted to post a well known, neutral organization so you could not negate it for being from a conservative or unknown source.

    I’m sure you could. Feel free to bring up as many polls as you like which contradict your position and support mine.

    Our immigration policies go completely against what the will of the American people want.

    Well, the proposals for walls and intense enforcement certainly do.

    Do you care about the quality of life in the country? What does the equation of finite resources and a doubling of the population tell you?

    That you can’t do math? The native population of 100 million of breeding age has a growth rate of 1.9%. That means that in the next generation our population will DECLINE by about 20 million people without immigration. If we legalize all the illegals, and even with their breeding rate of 2.3%, we’re still looking at barely breaking even. Those are the facts.

    I assume you are a liberal Democrat.

    Then you’d be assuming very wrong. Read some of my other articles and see if you still think that.

    Do you care about our environment?

    Absolutely. I’m a firm, conservative conservationist in the Teddy Roosevelt tradition. I believe that land exists to be used and preserved for the use of people.

    Do you like the idea of double decking all our roads and highways to prepare for the influx in the population?

    I don’t see that happening in the vast areas of the northeast and midwest where population is decreasing.

    Does your compassion for “immigrants” blind you to the destiny your point of view will lead us to?

    I don’t HAVE any compassion for immigrants. Read my article and see if you can find any. I just think we need to deal with problems sensibly and in ways which will most benefit the nation as a whole.

    Even with the illegals included our total immigrant population is lower than it has been at almost any time in our history. There IS NO IMMIGRANT PROBLEM.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Um, Clavos. That census document isn’t a fake. It’s on their actual website. It makes no sense at all, and it’s quite old, but it’s real.

    Looking at the numbers I don’t see how they could come up with the conclusion of a doubling of population in 100 years. Demographic models for population growth levelling out as a density level is reached seem to have been completely ignored.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    I stand corrected, and I apologize to netram.

    It is a seven year old document, however.

    Here’s a table from the Census Bureau, updated for 2004 (the most recent data), for growth by decade through 2050, in which they do project figures of 138 million (rounded up) growth by 2050, or 48%. The table also indicates Latinos will costitute 66 million of the 138 million total growth, or about 48% of the total growth.

  • Netram

    Clavos and Dave,

    Thanks for responding.

    So, you actually think with the turmoil of today, the mood is for more immigration? Not less? Cause that is what amnesty and a guest worker program will bring. Please ask any expert. The number of immigrants will leap under the legislation as it is written. If the pros get their “family reunification” the way they want it, you can just add tens of millions more in the coming decades. Another quote:

    “The bill increases legal migration by at least 50 percent over the next decade by granting green cards to all the remote relatives who are in the chain migration categories, a number estimated at 750,000 to 900,000 a year. That is triple the current number of 250,000. Giving green cards to millions of additional relatives ensures that legal immigration will continue to grow as this larger pool of permanent residents brings in spouses.” townhall.com

    Hispanic immigrants love to make lots of babies, it’s in their culture. That does not change over night. Quote: “While 22 white women per thousand are unwed when they have children, the number for African-American women is three times higher — 66.

    Yet the dubious distinction of having the highest birthrate among single women in the country — by almost 50 percent, 92 per thousand — belongs to Hispanic women.

    We do not hear an outcry from the (Latino) community, even though 51 percent of Hispanic women are pregnant at least once before they turn 20, according to the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy. Again, it is the highest among any group in the country. The national average stands at 35 percent.”

    The statistics come from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and they are for the year 2003. sun-sentinel.com

    I stand by the Gallup and Census Bureau data I quoted. Two years is not much to negate Gallup. I tried to find more recent data for Gallup but I don’t think that is available yet. I will keep looking.

    The warm and fuzzy quote you pasted from the article does not negate the fact that when asked the basic question: Do you want more or less immigration? 80% want it to decrease or stay the same. Only 16% want it to increase. Less then one in five want to increase immigration. Like I said above, the new Comp. legislation will sharply increase legal immigration. There again, what the American people want (80% don’t want immigration to rise) directly contradicts what the current legislation will do (increase legal immigration dramatically). Something does not compute.

    Why don’t you make a phone call to the Census Bureau and ask them about our future population? Are you actually trying to tell me our population is not headed to a doubling? You are saying it is flat lined? Find me a link where it says that please.

    Please you seem like an intelligent man. We should be shooting for replacement level immigration and in our general population also. American citizens are doing there part to keep the population in check. I am in favor of immigration to keep our population at replacement levels. Not to astronomically increase it as we are headed presently.

    By the way, that 600 million was a middle number. The Bureau says it could be as many as 1 billion. It’s in the article. Plus, since 1999 when that projection was made illegal immigration has skyrocketed. Legal immigration has grown. 3 million plus “citizen babies” of illegal immigrants have been born, with 300-400 thousand more born every year. All these increases are not in the projections from 1999. So that only means the numbers today if projected would be much higher they say. Insanity rules!!

    Please please do some goggling on your own to find out the population projections. I am right on this one. We are headed for a doubling in less then 100 years, probably more like 80. Then once you find the population projections, ask yourself, do you want more immigration or less?

    I have done my homework on this. I find it disturbing and fascinating at the same time, how much grief and resistance I get from the pro immigration crowd when I show them the facts. Our population is headed for an explosion due to our liberal immigration policies and nobody wants to talk about it. Just open up the immigration flood gates and let them all in.

  • http://www.vote4fredthompson.com Winghunter

    Hey Dave!!

    You provided the Times Magazine, New york Times and The Washington Post polls…Why didn’t you provide a much more objective source like say….The Dailykos??

  • Jerry

    Netram –

    You have done your homework! Thanks for the facts and emphasis on the rise of an unsustainable population spike that will change the face of the country forever if not reigned in.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Netram,

    The point is not whether I (or Dave) “want more or less immigration,” the original point is what the current polls indicate the American public wants to do about the illegals already here, and those indicate the majority want a process to legalize, in some form, those who are already here.

    Remember that projections are only that; projections. Other well known historical projections include those of Malthus and more recently, Paul Erlich, with his book: “The Population Bomb.”

    Neither, of course, was even close to correct.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    For Winghunter and the person earlier who objected to the source, I offer these numbers direct from two conservative publications:

    FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. May 16-18, 2006

    “Allowing illegal immigrants who have jobs in the United States to apply for legal, temporary-worker status”

    Favor: 63%
    Oppose: 29%

    Wall Street Journal Poll on April 20-23, 2007

    “As you may know, President Bush has proposed to allow foreigners who have jobs but are staying illegally in the United States to apply for legal, temporary-worker status. Do you strongly favor, somewhat favor, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose this proposal?”

    Support: 44%
    Oppose: 41%

    As far as I can tell the results are much the same regardless of the political leanings of the source.

    I’ve added some of this info to the article.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    So, you actually think with the turmoil of today, the mood is for more immigration? Not less?

    No, I think that polls show that the mood today is towards legalizing those who are currently illegal. That goes hand in hand in most peoples minds with setting some sort of effective enforcement for future immigration.

    Cause that is what amnesty and a guest worker program will bring. Please ask any expert.

    Actually, just about all the experts seem to agree that a temporary guest worker program will reduce the amount of illegal or legal immigration by a substantial amount.

    Dave

  • Alec

    RE: But the opponents of the bill mostly made the argument that the American people did not want ‘amnesty’ as offered by the bill, suggesting that the people want to throw illegals out and build a wall to keep them there.

    This is a totally phony argument, as phony as the suggestion that people who oppose the present immigration reform bill can be simplistically reduced to either racists (or the new improved slur), nativists. Time and time again, defacto open border proponents simply ignore those people who simply argue that immigrants of all ethnicities who have waited in line, filled out all the proper forms and are waiting to be processed deserve priority consideration over those who have simply come into the country and who have flouted ALL present laws and procedures.

    Also, the Bush administration and open border proponents also ignore any proposals to impose sanctions on employers who willingly hire and underpay illegal immigrant workers. An unspoken commandment seems to be “thou shalt not ever speak ill of a business or corporation while a Republican is in office.” No one rational has ever seriously said that illegal immigrants should be deported.

    However, despite all their loud and angry rhetoric, poll after poll conducted in the past year has shown that they are just dead wrong.

    Actually, many of the polls are biased. They ask mealy-mouth questions about immigration, but rarely ask respondents to deal with the proposed immigration law or its implications. The discussion about immigration is often as loaded and phony as the discussion about second hand smoke, in this case junk economics instead of junk science.

    RE: Starting last spring, before the debate over the immigration bill was in full swing, a poll from Time Magazine showed a willingness by the public to accept the idea of putting immigrants on a track to citizenship – and overwhelming support for the idea of a guest worker program to provide for the nation’s labor needs.

    There are two big lies here. Whenever I watch the coverage of immigration from a Mexican perspective (e.g, watching discussions on TV channels 22, 34 and 52 in Southern California), it becomes clear that significant numbers of Mexican immigrants DO NOT want to become US citizens. Instead, they simply want the right to enter the country for work and to move about within the US and Mexico without bother. The idea that everyone wants to be a US citizen is utter nonsense. Note here that I am not in any way saying that this lack of interest in US citizenship is the same for people from Guatemala or El Salvador, but it is the case for many Mexican immigrants, who make up the largest number of illegal immigrants. As an aside, I note that most Canadian residents I know are not interesting in beoming US citizens because they do not want to give up their access to the Canadian health care system.

    There simply is no such thing as a necessary guest worker program or “the nation’s labor needs.” Michelle Malkin recently had a video clip showing the Wall St Journal editors going on about the need for agricultural workers, so that vegetables would not rot in the fields. But the plain hard fact is that many immigrants are deliberately bypassing agricultural work for better and more stable jobs in construction and the service industries. Again, here in Southern California, many illegal immigrants would rather stand around a Home Depot and wait for a day of labor than work in a hot field.

    Unless a guest worker program is going to be some form of involuntary indentured service, I don’t see large numbers of anybody from anywhere looking to work for low wages picking lettuce.

    So, while people in a poll may indicate support for a guest worker program, this has nothing at all to do with whether a guest worker program would be worth a damn.

    There is nothing in the proposals about increasing the number of immigration workers to process applications, nothing about increased border enforcement, and absolutely nothing that remotely suggests how the next wave of illegal immigrants would be discouraged from entering the country once current illegals get amnesty.

    The bill as currently conceived is an empty, useless gesture that doesn’t do much of anything except dramatically increase the number of low wage workers in the country.

    RE: … 78% supported a citizenship path for current illegals if they met simple reqirements like learning English.

    Again, this is meaningless. Immigrants will learn English if there is a rational reason for doing so. However, a number of Southern California cities that are becoming majority Latino and are becoming like Quebec, islands of Spanish speakers who do not need to learn English. However, I also note that some of the biggest advertisers on Spanish language TV are for English language schools, CDs and other materials.

    People oppose the immigration bill because it is a crock. It grants amnesty, has no enforcement teeth, and helps business at the expense of citizens and immigrants, legal and otherwise.

  • Netram

    Dave,

    “No, I think that polls show that the mood today is towards legalizing those who are currently illegal. That goes hand in hand in most peoples minds with setting some sort of effective enforcement for future immigration.”

    The mood I get from the street is this. Most people, including myself will give amnesty to those here (minus the criminals and the diseased that would have been rejected if they came legally)after the border is proved to be secure. Lou Dobbs started that line of thinking two years ago. Now millions of people understand the concept and agree. That is a huge concession on the part of millions of Americans who in the past refused even the notion of a legal path for law breakers. Now, because the numbers are so huge 12-20 million) most realize it’s impossible to deport them. So they concede on the biggest demand of all, legalization for illegal aliens already here. Well it’s your turn to concede. Allow the borders to be proven secured first, whatever it takes.

    The Senate’s bill imposes no cap on the total number of individuals who could receive Z-visa status. In 86 they were expecting 1.5 million but what we got were 3 million. Most on your end say the number is 12 million. But what if it’s 20 million. In the blink of an eye, let’s just add a population the size of New York City to the total. No big deal right?

    We had one tragic amnesty in 86. Simpson-Mazzoli Act was a total and utter failure. A slap in the face to anyone that is dubious of what government says and what it does. Now we are supposed to just forget the shaft we got 20 years ago and believe once again our lame, pandering government will do the right thing this time and actually enforce the laws it passes?

    The “triggers” set in the new bill are a scam. Most new enforcement measures are “subject to the availability of appropriations,” meaning Congress would have to provide additional money to finance them. Come on, we all know how Congress can pass anything but when it comes time to pay for it down the road, the money is mysteriously never there.

    In signing the 1986 measure into law, President Ronald Reagan said, “Future generations of Americans will be thankful for our efforts to humanely regain control of our borders.”

    Someone pass me a barf bag quick!!!

    “Actually, just about all the experts seem to agree that a temporary guest worker program will reduce the amount of illegal or legal immigration by a substantial amount.”

    Please find me a link to that statement. As I said, the new legislation increases over all Green Card holders by a factor of 3. Chain migration goes up from 250,000 to 750,000 in the first ten years. If that what you call a reduction in “legal immigration”? Add to that a new guest worker program that will add 200-400 thousand workers each and every year. This is not a reduction. If it’s what you think we need, then that is fine. But stop saying this will reduce legal immigration and admit legal immigration will go up under this legislation.

    Legalization will slow down illegal immigration, That I agree. But, Z-Visa applicants have a window of 12 months to apply. That gives foreign nationals outside the country an entire year to get in on the deal. Just create or buy some fake documents that prove you have been in the country by the cut off date, Dec. 31, 2006. Any bank statement, pay stub, or similarly forgeable record will do. Even an affidavit from someone other then a relative saying you were here before the cit off date is acceptable. It’s so easy it’s laughable.

    There will be a massive flood of illegal aliens coming into this country while the application period is open. It’s like sending out a great big party invitation to all who want US citizenship on the cheap.

    I’ll leave you with this:

    But Pres. Bush says he will go to Capitol Hill Tuesday, look the Republicans in the eye and assure them that they can trust him to see that all enforcement happens.

    There is something terribly strange about his whole argument.

    It is as if the President who has refused to enforce most immigration laws the last six years is somebody other than himself.

    Pres. Bush appears to be saying and this is most important, “You can trust me to enforce the law if you approve the amnesty” but he is suggesting that without passing the amnesty the illegal immigration problem is going to grow far worse because the President won’t be enforcing the laws already on the books.

    And he wonders why people don’t trust him?

    SECURE THE BORDERS FIRST. THEN YOU GET YOUR AMNESTY. THAT IS THE GRAND COMPROMISE.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    RE: … 78% supported a citizenship path for current illegals if they met simple reqirements like learning English.

    Like I said, there’s nothing like a lousy, half-assed poll to dispute any thoughts reality might send your way.

    Like why, if Americans are so opposed to a fence, did Congress pass a bill promising one – just weeks before the elections?

    Like why is every pro-amnesty nut in this Congress claiming this amnesty has to be passed now – far enough away from the next election that, they hope, it will be forgotten come voting time?

    So let’s see now: Vote on bill for a fence? Right before the elections. Vote on bill for amnesty? 17 months away from the elections. Senators up for re-election? Heavily skewed towards opposition.

    Why did so many Democrats running last year – including victorious ones like Tester, Webb, and McCaskill (who all voted against the amnesty – run as enforcement-firsters?

    And about those polls: those polls don’t present real-world situations – they present idealized versions of such, such as: “Would you accept amnesty for enforcement?”

    I’m staunchly in favor of reducing both legal and illegal immigration, yet even I might accept a genuine bargain like that.

    The problem with such a dumb question is that it deosn’t present the options realistically. Realistically it would be “Would you accept promises of enforcement tomorrow in exchange for amnesty today?”

    There are basically three types of political polls: push polls used to claim majority support, half-assed polls by media outfits done for viewer interests, and hard core polls done to actually dtermine the public’s views on an issue. The latter seldom get released to the public.

  • AWinthrop

    ZOGBY(WASHINGTON- MAY-2007)

    When offered by itself, there is strong support for the House bill: 69 percent said it was a good or very good idea when told it tries to make illegals go home by fortifying the border, forcing employer verification, and encouraging greater cooperation with local law enforcement while not increasing legal immigration; 27 percent said it was a bad or very bad idea.

    When given three choices (House approach, Senate approach, or mass deportation), the public tends to reject both the Senate plan and a policy of mass deportations in favor of the House bill; 28 percent want the Senate plan, 12 percent want mass deportations; while 56 percent want the House approach.

    But when given a choice between just the House and Senate approaches, without the choice of mass deportations, the public prefers the House approach 64 percent version to 30 percent.

    One reason the public does not like legalizations is that they are skeptical of need for illegal-immigrant labor. An overwhelming majority of 74 percent said there are plenty of Americans to fill low-wage jobs if employers pay more and treat workers better; just 15 percent said there are not enough Americans for such jobs.

    Another reason the public does not like Senate proposals to legalize illegals and double legal immigration is that 73 percent said they had little or no confidence in the ability of the government to screen these additional applicants to weed out terrorists and criminals.

    Public also does not buy the argument we have tried and failed to enforce the law: 70 percent felt that past enforcement efforts have been “grossly inadequate,” while only 19 percent felt we had made a “real effort” to enforce our laws.

  • Tim C

    It seems that our political heroes are missing the most critical ingredient needed in any Immigration plan: a legitimate deterrent. We can talk about taking control of the borders and establishing a guest worker program, but without first establishing and enforcing strong penalties for those who enter the country illegally or hire illegal aliens, we are doing nothing more than repeating the amnesty mistake we made 20 years ago without solving the core problem.

    Should we demand that those found in the country illegally work on a “Great Wall of Mexico,” without pay, as punishment, and force those who hire illegal immigrants without following the rules of the guest worker program to fund the development? Being forced to work on a wall in the middle of the desert for 365 consecutive and unpaid days would be a much more effective and economical way to control illegal entry than any wall, fence or system our government will ever build. Forcing employers to pay steep fines for not following the rules of the guest worker program would allow us to control the work force.

    We can not afford the tens or hundreds of billions it will cost to control the borders in the way our politicians are proposing. Let’s build it with free labor and finance it with law-breaking employers. Those caught in the country illegally and those hiring them illegally will soon learn it is not worth the risk.

    The real question is do we have enough fortitude to actually take a stand?

  • Hyndel

    #29-Alec
    Quote:
    “Time and time again, defacto open border proponents simply ignore those people who simply argue that immigrants of all ethnicities who have waited in line, filled out all the proper forms and are waiting to be processed deserve priority consideration over those who have simply come into the country and who have flouted ALL present laws and procedures.”
    End quote.

    I strongly agree with Your point but can someone explain to me why in 21st century with computers that can do milions operations in seconds stupid paperwork process takes 2,3,5,7 or even 10 years ????
    And we are the most advanced nation in the world.
    Am I missing something ????

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    One reason the public does not like legalizations is that they are skeptical of need for illegal-immigrant labor. An overwhelming majority of 74 percent said there are plenty of Americans to fill low-wage jobs if employers pay more and treat workers better; just 15 percent said there are not enough Americans for such jobs.

    This highlights one of the inherent problems with this issue. A lot of the most outspoken opponents of immigration are from states far from the border where there are virtually no immigrants, and where the need for immigrant labor is also lower. If people would like to come down from the Rust Belt and take a job here in Texas working construction for $15 per hour, they can solve the labor problem for us and make all of this less necessary. But the fact is that they would rather be unemployed or underpaid and bitch about immigrants than move to Texas.

    A large portion of those in any poll are going to be so ignorant about issues like labor demand and the character and motivations of illegal immigrants that they screw up most results.

    Dave

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    This highlights one of the inherent problems with this issue. A lot of the most outspoken opponents of immigration are from states far from the border where there are virtually no immigrants, and where the need for immigrant labor is also lower.

    Uh, right: border states like North Carolina and Utah and Colorado. North Carolina now has over 400,000 illegals.

    If people would like to come down from the Rust Belt and take a job here in Texas working construction for $15 per hour, they can solve the labor problem for us and make all of this less necessary.

    Actually Steve Sailer did a great article on this:

    Imagine you are an American blue-collar worker in Cleveland, making $10 per hour. You know the local economy is stagnant, so you’re thinking about relocating to fast-growing Las Vegas. But your mom would miss you; and you’re not a teenager anymore so you don’t make new friends as fast as you once did; and you really like the wooded Ohio countryside you grew up around and the fall colors and the deer hunting; and there’s this girl that maybe you could get serious about, but her whole family is in Cleveland and she’d never leave.

    So, you decide, you’ll leave home behind if you can make 50 percent more in Las Vegas, adjusted for cost of living. That seems fair.

    But, then you look through the Las Vegas want ads and discover you’d be lucky to make 10 or 20 percent more because the town is full of illegal aliens. They’re moving from another country, so it’s not much skin off their nose to move to Las Vegas rather than some place slower-growing.

    Well, forget that, you say. I’ll stay in Cleveland.

    In other words, people used to be more than willing to leave places in the Rust Belt for Texas, California, and so on if the economy was booming and the pay was good enough. (Who the hell wouldn’t want to leave Cleveland for San Diego or Dallas?) Now, illegal immigration has altered that. A person who leaves Cleveland for LA or San Diego has zero chance of getting paid well enough to be able to afford a home, etc. in such places without shacking up with three others families as the illegals do.

    I’ve met dozens of ex-Californians in just the last few years, and the first thing off off every one of their tongues is always “I’d love to live there, but it’s so expensive.”

    But the fact is that they would rather be unemployed or underpaid and bitch about immigrants than move to Texas.

    Yeah right, dude. Keep living on fantasy planet.

    A large portion of those in any poll are going to be so ignorant about issues like labor demand and the character and motivations of illegal immigrants that they screw up most results.

    And which poll repsondents would those be: those who oppose the amnesty, or those who oppose it?

    I am not ignorant of labor issues. I know the score: it’s all about redistributing the profits from one group (laborers) to another: rich employers. Why should multimillionares have the right to labor at any price they want to pay? If they can’t get it at X dollars an hour then they’re SOL. Offer X + $3.

    I can’t go to an apple farmer and insist he sell me apples for 2 cents a pound. Why do businessmen have that right?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I didn’t say Las Vegas, I said Texas. Louisiana too for that matter. Halliburton is paying illegals $15 an hour for manual labor and they pay just as much to the legal workers who are on their crews. Same is true here in the Austin area for those working construction. The fact that the guy in your article chose a stupid place to move to – Vegas doesn’t have the vast population and rapid growth pattern we have here – doesn’t make the basic idea flawed.

    Dave

  • STM

    Accuses Dave: “I assume you are a liberal Democrat.”

    Dave replies: “Then you’d be assuming very wrong. Read some of my other articles and see if you still think that.”

    Lol. Got that one fu.king wrong, they did.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “I didn’t say Las Vegas, I said Texas. Louisiana too for that matter”

    Or Florida: $20 an hour construction jobs (mostly filled by foreigners already) going begging; they can’t find enough workers.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    I didn’t say Las Vegas, I said Texas. Louisiana too for that matter. Halliburton is paying illegals $15 an hour for manual labor and they pay just as much to the legal workers who are on their crews. Same is true here in the Austin area for those working construction. The fact that the guy in your article chose a stupid place to move to – Vegas doesn’t have the vast population and rapid growth pattern we have here – doesn’t make the basic idea flawed. – David

    Or Florida: $20 an hour construction jobs (mostly filled by foreigners already) going begging; they can’t find enough workers. – Clavos

    If I can’t find a lawyer willing to work for $20 an hour, does that give me the right to import one illegally?

    The Vegas “guy” was a hypothetical. And you’re saying Vegas doesn’t have a rapid growth rate? Where have you been lo this past decade?

    The point isn’t just the reality – it’s also the perception. The perception – entirely justifiable (and true) – is that there’s no reward for blue collar workers who move to a booming area because they’ll be undermined price-wise by illegal aliens.

    Aside from that fact, when’s the last time you tried to get by on even $20 an hour? It really doesn’t buy that much in Florida nowadays.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Too continue on a little:

    Market signals, especially amongst blue collar workers, are based largely on perception. As illegals have streamed into the US they have held down wages. That is fact, not perception. So why would any native blue collar worker choose to move to leave his hometown for a booming, higher cost area where he wouldn’t get a markup for his labor?

    As I pointed out already, there are easily millions of people in the Rust Belt states who would be more than willing to move to places like Florida or California if they could afford to do so. The effect of illegal immigration – which is encouraged because it allows rich employers to keep more of the profits rather than pay a decent wage – is to remove this incentive or ability.

    Your complaint that Florida and Louisiana construction companies are going begging is irrelevant. Much of this construction need is for temporary labor to repair damage from Hurricanes Ivan & Katrina. People today typically think long-term, because they have to. Home mortgages, for example, are usually 30 year affairs. TO make those payments a worker needs not only a good paying job, but a reasonable guarantee that the pay will continue to be decent, expecially in expensive places.

    The open borders obsession of today is out-of-sync with traditional market principles. In the old days, if Florida/Texas/Louisiana construction companies were going begging for labor, they’d recruit, formally or informally, from slower growing parts of the country. They’d increase the pay to attract people to the jobs. That’s why so many blacks moved North during WW1 and North and West during the WW2 eras – to work in factories that were begging for labor.

    Nowadays businessmen have learned that they can retain more of the profits for themselves by employing illegal labor, which Washington doesn’t punish, and press Washington for yet more immigration.

    Some data to consider

    …where the top percent in this country own 38 percent of all wealth….

    Back in the 70s, the top 1% only owned about 25% of the wealth.

    Up until the early 1970s, the U.S. actually had lower wealth inequality than Great Britain, and even than a country like Sweden. But things have really turned around over the last 25 or 30 years. In fact, a lot of countries have experienced lessening wealth inequality over time. The U.S. is atypical in that inequality has risen so sharply over the last 25 or 30 years.

    The fact is that the wealth and income gaps have risen almost perfectly in sync with increases in immigration.

    But then why listen to me? I’m just an “extremist and a nativist,” right?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “Aside from that fact, when’s the last time you tried to get by on even $20 an hour? It really doesn’t buy that much in Florida nowadays.”

    I live in Miami.

    That’s a starting wage in construction here; the really skilled people are doing much better than that.

    $20 an hour is over $40K a year, being paid to people who previously made $20 a DAY.

    No wonder they keep coming.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Market signals, especially amongst blue collar workers, are based largely on perception.

    I would correct this to say “partly based on perception.”

    Take three Michigan construction workers: Bo, Billy Ray, and Bubba. Bubba has a cousin in Florida who is making $25 an hour building houses. So Bubba moves down there, and tells Billy Ray and Bo abou it, and they move down there, too.

    In the past, this sort of informal recruitment is exactly what would have happened. But today, excatly the opposite is happening. As even pro-immigration writers like Michael Barone has noted, American workers are not only not moving to these places, but, in fact, fleeing them.

    In fact I have an uncle who can attest to that. He’s an incredibly gifted carpenter who did leave a place in “the Heartland” for Florida, and even during your so-called FLorida boom, his wages have suffered. He’s actually a very liberal, long-haired hippie, yet even he’s complaining about the deleterious effects of immigration on his ability to provide for his family.

    But I’m sure you know all, Dave. After all, I’m sure you’ve spent years as a contruction worker, haven’t you?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “Much of this construction need is for temporary labor to repair damage from Hurricanes Ivan & Katrina.”

    Not in Florida it’s not; it’s all new construction, brought about by a boom that began shortly after the first wave of Cubans began to arrive in the early 60s, and which is STILL accelerating, with no end in sight, because people keep pouring in here, creating ever more demand for jobs AND goods and services.

    In the 50s, South Florida was literally dying. The only industry, tourism, was seasonal and declining every year.

    The best thing that ever happened here was Fidel’s takeover of Cuba. First the Cubans, then all the other Latinos, found Miami a great place to live and work, with the stability and tranquility they couldn’t find at home.

    Having had a ringside (and IN the ring) seat to watch this economic bonanza close up for the last fifty years, you’ll never convince me that immigration is a bad thing.

    And the beat goes on…

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    I live in Miami. [$20 and hour is] a starting wage in construction here; the really skilled people are doing much better than that. – Clavos

    It could be 20 million pesos – or 25 trillion Deutsch Marks (ca. 1935). As always, what matters is: what can you buy with it? Will $40K a year buy a decent home for an American worker in a neighborhood with good schools and where they don’t feel like a foreigner in their own country?

    Once again, you can believe your theory – “Blue collar Americans should jump at the chance to make $20 an hour!” – or you can believe the well-established demographic reality. And that is that Americans are fleeing the places, supposed boomtowns, that immigrants are moving ino. In the West it’s been going on for well over a decade now.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Having had a ringside (and IN the ring) seat to watch this economic bonanza close up for the last fifty years, you’ll never convince me that immigration is a bad thing. – Clavos

    Economic bonanza for who? As I said, refer to Michael Barone’s demographic data. Americans, whatever they tell pollsters, are expressing their feelings about mass immigration with their feet.

    The question about government policy isn’t “What’s good for the economy?” It’s “What’s good for the people?”

    If immigration causes a 1% increase in a person’s income but also adds 200 hours to their commute each year, the benefits are lost.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    In the 50s, South Florida was literally dying. The only industry, tourism, was seasonal and declining every year.

    There’s another thing that has increased since the 50s that may have had an effect on South Florida: air conditioning. Without AC, how many elederly ex-New Yorkers do you suppose would be moving living in Florida?

    Because of AC, Florida would be booming even sans Cubans. That’s why the whole Southeast has boomed. And unlike much of the Southeast, Florida has (nice) beaches.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “And that is that Americans are fleeing the places, supposed boomtowns, that immigrants are moving ino.”

    We’re not a “supposed” boomtown; it’s quite real…

    Boomtowns are, by definition, places where there is a lot of money to be made. I’ve seen little evidence of people leaving because they can’t afford to live here; the people coming in have even less money than those who’ve been here all along, and they do just fine.

    No, most Americans who are leaving are doing so because they’re uncomfortable with the large foreign population.

    Not the original natives though. They’re building tourist traps left and right and thriving. The Seminole Tribe just bought the entire worldwide Hard Rock chain for just less than a billion dollars.

    I remember when all they had was a sorry looking “indian village” (fake) in which they put on alligator wrestling shows for the rubes. Now, they’re moguls, with the tribe’s income amounting to more than $60K a year for each man, woman, and child.

    Americans; smart ones; doing just fine staying here and riding the boom.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    AC was already here in the 50s. It helped, but the Cubans started the ball rolling.

    As far as elderly New Yorkers; they’re mostly elsewhere in Florida these days. They don’t like all the loud, dirty, noisy brown people who live here now.

    No loss there. You can’t build a boomtown on the kind of money elderly retirees spend; you need young, ambitious working people for that.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    The fact is that the wealth and income gaps have risen almost perfectly in sync with increases in immigration

    Except that immigration has NOT risen substantially. Once again, you’ve got a conclusion based on one fact and one fiction, but that makes the conclusion invalid.

    The truth is that historically our level of immigration relative to population is about 25% lower today than it was 100 years ago.

    As I’ve said before, the immigrant ‘threat’ is a phantom in the minds of the nativists.

    Dave

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Actually the data show nothing special about Florida.

    Unemployment was notably low, but the problem with unemployment as a valid indicator is shown by how it’s determined: (Claims for Unemployment)/(Total Jobs in Economy). Since illegals are part of the denominator, but can’t, by law, be part of the numerator, unemployment will by definition be lower in states with large illegal populations.

    More data backs that:

    The state’s economy—particularly that of the Miami area—has also benefited from an influx of Latin American investment funds. Miami is said to have one of the largest underground economies in the US, a reference both to the sizable inflow of cash from illicit drug trafficking and to the large numbers of Latin American immigrants working for low, unreported cash wages. Florida’s population increased by 16% between 1990 and 1999, due primarily to migration. Strong annual economic growth rates in the late 1990s (averaging 6.6% 1998 to 2000) were only moderated to 4.2% in the national recession of 2001. Growth continued damped in 2002, reflecting, particularly, a slowdown in Florida’s tourist industry, but remained above the national average. By July 2002, the state was experiencing positive, if small (less than 1%), job growth.

  • Racist Nativist Xenophobic Bigot

    Except that immigration has NOT risen substantially

    Note the huge, double (even triple) digit increases in foreign born population to over half the states in the US over a single decade. That’s not a “substantial rise?”

    The truth is that historically our level of immigration relative to population is about 25% lower today than it was 100 years ago. As I’ve said before, the immigrant ‘threat’ is a phantom in the minds of the nativists.

    In other words: lower only than it was at one other point in history: the last Great Wave of immigration (1881-1924). That Great Wave got Americans so fed up about it that they pretty much shut immigration down for good for 40 solid years.

    Immigrants today are almost as high a percentage of our population as they were back then and, of course, are much larger today in absolute numbers. What’s more, America had a much lower overall population, so

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    You just proved my point. Even five years ago, we had positive job growth and LOTS of money floating around the local economy. Today, (and for the past several years) we have a lower unemployment rate than the national rate, and thousands of job openeings. the Miami herald has one of the largest “help wanted” classified sections in the country.

    Even “underground” economies create wealth and jobs.

    You can quote outdated stats until you’re blue in the face; I’m counting construction cranes and cars on the roads (one of the downsides to all this economic wellbeing).

  • STM

    Nallie: “As I’ve said before, the immigrant ‘threat’ is a phantom in the minds of the nativists”.

    Nativists?? Or thinly disguised racists? Would they be making the same complaints if the illegals were Australians (also requiring English as a second language classes) or Canadians. Think about it guys, before answering truthfully.

  • STM

    I suspect if they were white, anglo-saxon English speakers, the attitude might be more along the lines of “the more, the merrier”.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    We could use a pack of Aussies here in SoFla. It’s one of the few nationalities that’s not well represented here.

    C’mon over Stan, and bring a pack of your mates with you!

  • Dr Dreadful

    I think the reason more Australians don’t make it to Florida is that it’s a bloody long way to come, with lots of distractions on the way.

    Aussies taking the westward route via London quickly get swallowed up in the Antipodean ghetto that is Earl’s Court, never to emerge; those traveling eastward stop over in Los Angeles and spend all their US dollars in a fruitless effort to try and find Paul Hogan’s house.

    For those that do make it, there’s very little incentive to stay. American beer – not good!

  • Dude who got blocked

    Says on the site that “Personal attacks are not allowed.”

    Since I wasn’t making any personal attacks, I guess you just got tired of someone getting the better of the argument, eh?

    But hey: welcome to Dave’s Amen Corner.

    No forbidden thoughts allowed.

  • STM

    Clav: “C’mon over Stan, and bring a pack of your mates with you!”

    Mate, can you tell me what the statute of limitations is in Florida on vending machine crime (free cans of cherry soda!) and unauthorised, illegal use of a golf buggy on a major highway at 3am whilst intoxicated?

    No particular reason … just wondering :)

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Dude, your comments are being blocked by the spam filter. I have no idea why. And if something gets blocked by it once it’s likely to get blocked by it if you post it over and over again. Take it up with Akismet.

    Dave

  • Netram

    Clavos, Sorry I can’t let you get away with all the Miami is a great diverse city crap. You live in a dream world and I will gladly bring you down to reality.

    I have lived in Florida for 30 years. The last four in Ft. Lauderdale. You know that English speaking city just north of the capital of Latin America, Miami. That wonderfully Latin diverse sanctuary city where non Spanish speaking Anglos and Blacks are leaving by the thousands. More on that later.

    The boom has been over for about two years now. The only people on the market to buy homes now are the rich that are never affected by the slow downs in th economy. Housing projects are half completed and vacant. Foreclosures in the area are one of the highest in the country. We had sky rocketing housing prices from 1999-2005 which caused a crisis in property taxes and property insurance. People are literally going bankrupt cause they can’t afford to live in their homes anymore. They are leaving Florida for points north like Tennessee and North Carolina where housing is reasonable and English is still the preferred language. At least for now.

    I have a couple of frriends who were in the construction industry. They had to get out because of the influx of cheap labor from S. of the border. My friends could not speak to any of them so it was like two camps of people under the same roof. According to my buddies, the contractors like to hire the illegals cause they pay them under the table which increases their profits. It’s all just so disgusting.

    Now with the construction boom over, many are out of work and unemployed in my country. Great!!

    As I said above, I live in Ft. Lauderdale. There is, right now, a massive emigration of non-Latino, non-Spanish speaking Anglos and Blacks moving out of Dade County headed to points north. Nobody talks about it but, not much anyway, afraibut slowly but surely it’s happening. Latinos, mostly Cuban, are in the process of transforming Dade County into their own mini Cuba minus Castro with the added benefit of capitalism. Bilingualism is practically a necessity if you want to put down some roots. There are entire neighborhoods where hardly a single person speaks English or feels the need to learn. I once walked into a restaurant off the beaten path and attempted to order some food to go. Not one person in the whole place spoke English. Finally one guy walked up to me and said in broken English that this was Miami and I need to learn Spanish. Gotta love that diversity in Miami.

    The influx of so many from the same background and heritage makes it easy to create mini economies that have less to do with being American and more to being some mathematical fraction of that. I have met Cubans from Miami online who were bold enough to tell me that they were Cubans first who just happen to have American papers. How lovely!! I would like to thank all the Cubans in Miami who after we took you in and gave you a great new life in America, pushed all us Anglos out of Dade and are making it day in and day out a less recognizable American city and more like something out of Latin America, just with more money.

    The massive movement out of one ethnic group in consequently as another moves out is proof multiculturalism works, but only to a point. After that point, look to Dade County for an answer in progress.

    Clavos, I am glad to burst your incredibly over inflated bubble concerning Miami.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Note the triple (or nearly triple) digit increases in foreign-born population of over half of the US states in only a single decade (1990s). How is that not a “substantial rise” in immigration?

    You’re not going to win any arguments if you can’t understand simple, basic mathematics. If a state has a tiny immigrant population and a small number more move into that state, the percentage increase is huge. But on a nationwide basis, the change in that state is insignificant. Your way of looking at the stats creates the illusion of a massive increase which doesn’t actually exist.

    And what you’re seeing there is a result of the Amnesty from the Reagan administration which obviously created a bit of a bulge in the foreign born population. And if you compound the figures on a nationwide basis you’re looking at a 35% increase in a 20 year period – not exactly an explosion.

    Keep in mind that I’ve NEVER said that I supported blanket amnesty or more than a moderate increase in immigration quotas. I’m for a substantial Guest Worker program, which would reduce immigration, not increase it.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Of course, Clavos does speak Spanish, so he wouldn’t have any trouble in a Spanish-speaking restaurant. Hell, I wouldn’t have any trouble either. I can read a menu and know what the various food-related words mean, and I’m as lily-white as they come. How hard is that? It doesn’t take a lifetime or more than a pea-sized brain to learn “Una Cerveza y dos enchiladas con Salsa Verde, por favor.”

    Hell, Spanish is one of the easiest languages to learn. I know someone who’s in the construction industry who went to community college for a year to learn Spanish so he could supervise Spanish-speaking crews. He went from being just another construction worker to owning his own company and bulding whole neighborhoods in 5 years, because he didn’t pack up and leave, but had the good sense and motivation to make a little effort.

    Trying to blame immigrants for your own laziness and lack of ambition is pathetic. The smart immigrants work hard to learn English, because they know it’s a way to advance themselves. Maybe that should give more natives a clue.

    Dave

  • Blocked Dude

    Dude, your comments are being blocked by the spam filter. I have no idea why.

    Well obviously they’re getting thru to you, because you just quoted a blocked comment.

    You’re not going to win any arguments if you can’t understand simple, basic mathematics. If a state has a tiny immigrant population and a small number more move into that state, the percentage increase is huge.

    Actually, I understand math quite well. For example, I understand that every single state but two – Maine & Montana – saw greater than 20% increases in foreign-born population in a single decade. The median increase – which included lots of big states – was 82%. That includes Texas (90% increase) and Florida (60% increase). Hardly small foreign-born populations in those states.

  • Blocked Dude

    Trying to blame immigrants for your own laziness and lack of ambition is pathetic. The smart immigrants work hard to learn English, because they know it’s a way to advance themselves. Maybe that should give more natives a clue.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] I’m more than happy to learn a foreign language: I speak German. But no one in the US should be forced to learn a particular langauge that is not English.

    In this world, there are lots of things worth learning. Another language is one of them. But in this modern economy, where technical knowledge matters a lot, Spanish is damn near the bottom of the list.

    And if you want to talk about laziness in that regard, talk about the 50% of Latinos who are high school dropouts. They may be learning Spanish, but they ain’t learning much of anything else.

    Good day.

  • Blocked Dude

    Even five years ago, we had positive job growth and LOTS of money floating around the local economy

    Actually the data show that five years ago your economy was slow like anyone else’s.

    Simple economic growth is irrelevant. The relevant question is: what does it do for the people. Given the fact that this WHite House has gotten almost zero credit for the supposed “boom” I would guess the answer to that is “not much.”

    Except that immigration has NOT risen substantially. Once again, you’ve got a conclusion based on one fact and one fiction, but that makes the conclusion invalid.

    It shows here what a bunch of hooey that is. 49 of 50 states saw double digit increases in their foreign born population in a single decade (the 1990s). Many saw 50% or more, and some saw triple digit increases.

    The truth is that historically our level of immigration relative to population is about 25% lower today than it was 100 years ago.

    That’s because 100 years ago was the peak of the last Great Wave. Moreover, 100 years ago our population was 1/3rd what it is today – so we had more room to accomodate them.

    As I’ve said before, the immigrant ‘threat’ is a phantom in the minds of the nativists.

    Well the whole idea of representative democracy is that people get to choose the policies of their nation. Immigration is certainly a policy they have a right to control. No one has the right to come here. Even if every last proponent of reduced immigration were a ignoramous nativist (they aren’t, not by a long shot), that wouldn’t reduce the legitimacy of their opinions one iota, or the repsonsibility of elected officials to listenm to them. I have no right to move to Korea or Japan or India, and they have no right to move here unless we let them.

    I’ll now let you return to your regularly scheduled Amen Corner.

  • http://nc.rr. tmoore

    The Rasmussen poll May 8 2007 says 56 % support Enforcement only.

  • http://nc.rr. tmoore

    “Trying to blame immigrants for your own laziness and lack of ambition is pathetic. The smart immigrants work hard to learn English, because they know it’s a way to advance themselves. Maybe that should give more natives a clue”

    Is that for real? Why ,then ,we are footing the bill for so many translators, and why do we have to press 2 for Spanish just about everywhere we call ? When I came to this country, years ago, I had to fend for myself with the language. As long as they have translators and live in their barrios they will not feel compelled to learn.
    Mr. Nalle I speak French, English and Spanish,but since I am in an English speaking country that is my everyday language.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Netram 61,

    Finally, you reveal the root behind your pessimistic view of South Florida: Cuban hatred.

    I suspected as much some time ago.

    You can rant and rave all you want, but the evidence is all around us, even in Broward: there’s an ongoing boom that is not going to run out of steam any time soon, even with the slowdown in the housing market, because it encompasses so much more than that one industry.

    You say you’ve been here thirty years. That means you never saw SoFla during the bad times; the boom has been going on since the early 60s. I came here in the 50s and have never seen it better here.

    You live in Broward, so you must know that FTL has been one of the fastest growing airports in the country for more than ten years.

    Miami’s cruise port is the largest in the world, and Port Everglades runs a close second; both ports are among the busiest cargo ports in the country.

    Far from “bursting my bubble”, you haven’t said anything that disproves what I can easily see just by driving around the area.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Well obviously they’re getting thru to you, because you just quoted a blocked comment.

    Scroll up. The blocked comments are no longer missing.

    Actually, I understand math quite well. For example, I understand that every single state but two – Maine & Montana – saw greater than 20% increases in foreign-born population in a single decade. The median increase – which included lots of big states – was 82%. That includes Texas (90% increase) and Florida (60% increase). Hardly small foreign-born populations in those states.

    If you go to the census which is the source for the figures on wikipedia you find that the total increase in the foreign born population in a decade was 57% nationwide. I’ve never argued that the immigrant population isn’t increasing, but it’s not as alarming as you make it out to be. That’s an increase of about 12 million, which is only 4% of our total population. And that includes legal and illegal immigrants, with the legals making up almost half of that figure. The point is that we’re hardly drowning in immigrants.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] I’m more than happy to learn a foreign language: I speak German. But no one in the US should be forced to learn a particular langauge that is not English.

    Who’s being forced to learn anything? Our public schools mostly don’t even require learning a foreign language. My point was that there are advantages to knowing a foreign language, be it Spanish or German. Either language can create job opportunities you wouldn’t have otherwise.

    In this world, there are lots of things worth learning. Another language is one of them. But in this modern economy, where technical knowledge matters a lot, Spanish is damn near the bottom of the list.

    Not everyone is in a technical field, and even those who are may find that there are an awful lot of opportunities in the spanish-speaking world where technology is being introduced to a new population and where markets are expanding in a way which they aren’t in the part of the world which is already technologically advanced.

    And if you want to talk about laziness in that regard, talk about the 50% of Latinos who are high school dropouts. They may be learning Spanish, but they ain’t learning much of anything else.

    I believe your 50% figure is for hispanics without a high school education at the age of 25, because that’s what the census bureau actually tracks. And that includes a large number who were born outside the US and therefore were not expected or required to complete high school.

    It shows here what a bunch of hooey that is. 49 of 50 states saw double digit increases in their foreign born population in a single decade (the 1990s). Many saw 50% or more, and some saw triple digit increases.

    Yes, but as I said that’s not a huge rise in the RATE of immigration. The foreign born population increased 47% from 1970 to 1980 and by 41% from 1980 to 1990. So the rate from 1990 to 2000 is a little bit higher, but not exactly alarming.

    Well the whole idea of representative democracy is that people get to choose the policies of their nation.

    Thank god we don’t live in a representative democracy.

    Immigration is certainly a policy they have a right to control. No one has the right to come here. Even if every last proponent of reduced immigration were a ignoramous nativist (they aren’t, not by a long shot), that wouldn’t reduce the legitimacy of their opinions one iota, or the repsonsibility of elected officials to listenm to them. I have no right to move to Korea or Japan or India, and they have no right to move here unless we let them.

    You can’t ignore economic forces like the need for workers and their desire to work here. It’s just stupid policy.

    Dave

  • Netram

    Clavos, “Cuban hatred” LOL I’ve had a Cuban long time companion since 1981. He knows my opionion and agrees that the non assimilation has gotten out of hand. He came over before Batista was overthrown. He has seen the changes and is troubled by what he sees.

    There you go throwing the race card to try and demonize anyone that dares bring up the reality of what is happening in Dade County. I could ask, Do you hate Anglos but i won’t go so low. Your pathetic attempt at diverting the discussion and not facing up to the “White flight” phenomena is typical of many Latinos in S. Florida. I’ve seen it a million times.

    Try and paint the picture as pretty as you want. Your inability to acknowladge the ethnic divisions going on is not surprising. It’s not healthy for the tourist industry so just act dumb.

    Do you really think without the Cuban influence, S. Florida would still be a struggling community like it was. Please…….It was ripe for the picking. American ingenuity would have taken over, just like anywhere else in this great country and the area would have progressed just the same. You give yourself too much credit.

    Miami is not an American city anymore. It’s a sacntuary city where the Latin influence has become so strong that is literally has trasformed the city into something so different that many have left. No longer feeling welcome in their home town. That is a fact sir whether you want to face it or not.

    Try and do that in Broward and you will be in for the fight of your life. BTW I love my peccadillo and platanos.

    Seems we have gotten off the subject.

    No amnesty till the borders are secure.

  • Jerry

    Netram, Dude and RNXB –

    You are wasting your time trying to reason with Dave on this issue. At some point in time Dave acquired the moniker Elitist Pig, and I’m sure it originated out of some similar hot issue wherein Dave would concede not even a centimeter, though faced with valid concerns and facts presented by others.

    Dave is brilliant, much more intelligent than most folks, but he is stubborn to a fault, and will not back down even to the point that he is willing to trample constitutional principles. That is where it ceases to be a debate.

  • Netram

    Dave,

    “Hell, Spanish is one of the easiest languages to learn. I know someone who’s in the construction industry who went to community college for a year to learn Spanish so he could supervise Spanish-speaking crews.”

    Why did the Spanish speaking crew not learn English in that year the supervisor was learning Spanish? You make a point , but at the same time you prove mine. As long as we give “immigrants” the fuel/incentive not to learn our language then they will continue to be “lazy” and make no attempt to assimilate and learn English.

    That is exactly what happened in this case. The supervisor was forced to learn Spanish because the crew was not willing to learn English. He now speaks their language so they have less incentive to learn ours. You can’t deny that logic.

    Why is it our responsibility to learn their language in our country and not the other way around? Why are we being told we must learn Spanish? Answer: Because many “immigrants” that are coming into this country don’t/won’t speak English. In order to communicate with them we have to learn Spanish. Something is very wrong with that phenomena.

  • zingzing

    “Why did the Spanish speaking crew not learn English in that year the supervisor was learning Spanish?”

    i’d bet that there is more than one spanish-speaking crew in the world. and now he could talk to all of them. he could even talk to the first one he had, which probably can speak some amount of english by now.

    “The supervisor was forced to learn Spanish because the crew was not willing to learn English.”

    when was that ever said?

    “You can’t deny that logic.”

    you don’t seem to be able to use logic half the time.

    “Why is it our responsibility to learn their language in our country and not the other way around?”

    it’s not. do you know spanish?

    “Why are we being told we must learn Spanish? Answer: Because many “immigrants” that are coming into this country don’t/won’t speak English.”

    who told you to learn spanish? was it an “immigrant?” how did you understand him? i know several immigrants, including some illegal immigrants. most of them speak perfectly fine english. i do know some white peoples’ grandmothers, however, that can’t speak a word of it.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Dave is brilliant, much more intelligent than most folks, but he is stubborn to a fault, and will not back down even to the point that he is willing to trample constitutional principles.

    Nothing could be less true than that last part. I’m entirely in support of constitutional principles. Perhaps we should review what the US Constitution says about immigration?

    Let’s see. The only reference to the issue is in Section 8 where it says: “The Congress shall have the power to…establish a uniform rule of naturalization.”

    That’s it. The only reference to immigration in the Constitution specifically delegates the matter to the legislature, so whatever process for creating new citizens they settle on is inherently constitutional.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    Nettie #73, much as I hate to do so, I have to defend non-English speakers by pointing out that English is one of the most horrific languages to learn. Even the majority of native-English speakers can’t get it right on a consistent basis. It seems deceptively easy, in that nouns & adjectives have no genders (except boats, for some reason, which are always ‘she’), and there are no case endings to verbs. The kicker is, the spelling is wildly erratic, as are many verb forms, there are a huge number of synonyms as well as sound-alikes that mean radically different things, & the vocabulary is, bar none, the largest of any known language, since English has always borrowed wildly from anything & everything that came along. One can get along in almost any other language with about 700 – 750 words; English requires almost 1300 for the same level of communication. Basically, it’s a bitch, & I have to give full credits to anyone who speaks it at even a basic level, however heavy the accent, because I certainly can’t speak theirs, which are much easier, with any fluency.

    In this area, at least, non-English speakers are very eager to learn English, & cram any classes anywhere at any time of day or night to learn. Can’t fault most of them there, either. If they aren’t in class, it’s more likely because there are no openings in any available class for the next year or two (!), & those that are available are woefully inadequate & underfunded. Of course, if the illegals weren’t here in such numbers, said classes wouldn’t BE inadequate & underfunded. My objection isn’t to hearing Spanish or French or Thai or Vietnamese or Korean or any other tongue; as I’ve been saying over & over again – it’s like banging my head against a wall, except it doesn’t feel good when I stop – I object to the bare fact that they are ILLEGAL. Period. There should be NO catering to any of them, for any reason, in any way. Period. All of them, not just Hispanics. That applies to the illegal white middle-class Canadian woman I knew as much as it does to any wetback from Salvador, or illicit import from China or SE Asia. Period.

    Enforce the damned laws we’ve got; we don’t need new ones. Fix the damned immigration process to a reasonable period of time; as it stands, it’s antiquated & obscenely, ridiculously cumbersome. And if there are too many illegals here currently to ship home, then for chrissakes at least revoke the automatic citizenship conferred on their illegal spawn, & start getting nasty with those US citizens who employ them, who are the raison d’etre they’re here. Heavy & certain punishment for tax-cheating employers = no work. No work = no reason for illegals to sneak in here. I would extend punishments for employers to extend to those who give aid & comfort to illegals as well, such as Casa of Maryland, or the various catholic church groups set up specifically to ‘ease their way’ into US society, or those goodhearted but misguided fools who set up refreshment stations all along the border regions. And I would specifically extend it to lawmakers – right up to Junior himself – who violate or look the other way – when the current laws remain unenforced, for dereliction of duty, malfeasance, & anything else that could possibly apply.

  • Jerry

    Sorry, but even though you are a staunch supporter of certain rights such as private ownership of firearms (Yeah Dave!) it is apparent that other foundational American principles, rooted in the Constitution (writings of the Founders), will be layed aside in favor of your pseudo Libertarian Progressivism.

    I’m not opposed to new ideas, but let’s not throw out the tried and true in the process.

  • Nancy

    Jerry, who are you addressing? Thanks.

  • Jerry

    The writers of the Constitution didn’t write more about immigration is probably because they never envisioned that later generations would be so naive and stupid as to not have adequate security in place to prevent what is now happening.

    How I’d love to know what Jefferson would say today.

  • Jerry

    Nancy –

    I’m responding to Dave, sorry

  • Nancy

    The founding fathers didn’t write about immigration because at that point it wasn’t an issue, nor could they ever envision it being one, given the vast areas of “unsettled” (by whites, that is) lands to the west. After all, at that point in time, even the massive Irish influx – the first to feature unwanted & adverse human elements – was still 50 years in the future. And they didn’t have science fiction in those days. Yet.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Jerry, what I’m proposing is NOT a new idea, it’s what the founders had in mind. And they DID know about immigration. They legislated to regulate it within a decade of the ratification of the Constitution, as the Constitution authorized congress to do.

    Nancy seems to be forgetting history when talking about available space. At the time the constitution was written the US was MUCH smaller than it is today, and the population density wasn’t much lower than it is now. Remember, at that time only the eastern seabord states were in the US. All that open space we have now was added later.

    At that time they believed in immigration restricted not by numbers, but by a process of qualifying for citizenship – and their standards were pretty low.

    The US is hardly overcrowded by any standards. We’ve got enormous amounts of open space. Not that I advocate unrestricted immigration, but the space argument just doesn’t wash.

    The controlling factor on immigration ought to be the availability of employment and opportunity, and if we’re attracting immigrants and they are becoming successful here, then those factors are still in play.

    But as I’ve said before, I don’t think we need open immigration. It’s excessive. What we need is a solid guest worker program which will put Mexicans to work legally and give them an alternative to immigrating. Right now it’s easier to illegally immigrate than to get a work visa. Under the proposed law it would be easier to become a citizen than to get a work visa. That’s just ridiculous.

    Dave

  • Jerry

    The concept of Manifest Destiny may have come about later on, but the fouders had an inkling.
    Early expansion into the rest of the country by settlers can be attributed to this sense that it was theirs for the taking, and we know what kind of bitterness and anger this still brings (justifiably) today on the part of indigenous peoples.

    The Spanish conquered and subjugated the natives long before any whites did, then the whites came and conquered them all, and to some extent relegated the Spanish, then Mexicans to a subserviant existence.

    Though comparing the current state of illegal immigration with these past events is a bit of a stretch, some of the dynamics are the same. Americans are trying to protect what they have, from any imagined or real threat. Add to that the sometimes ominous globalist ecomomic component, and you end up with a commotion.

    As in the earlier examples, the strongest will win. Too bad that doesn’t equate to the average American

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Netram asks, in #71:

    “I could ask, Do you hate Anglos but i won’t go so low.”

    It’s OK, I’ll answer anyway. No, I don’t. I’m not into self hatred.

    “Do you really think without the Cuban influence, S. Florida would still be a struggling community like it was. Please…….It was ripe for the picking. American ingenuity would have taken over…”

    Maybe. But, that didn’t happen, did it? What DID happen was that the area had been declining under the Americans for about twenty years when the Cubans began to arrive, and within less than five years, began to revitalize dramatically.

    “You give yourself too much credit.”

    I had nothing to do with it. It was the Cubans and later, the Central and South Americans who did it, with the help and enthusiastic participation of the Anglos smart enough to recognize a good thing and stick around to enjoy its benefits.

    “Miami is not an American city anymore. It’s a sacntuary city where the Latin influence has become so strong that is literally has trasformed the city into something so different that many have left. No longer feeling welcome in their home town. That is a fact sir whether you want to face it or not.”

    The city has been transformed, no doubt about it. And for those with open minds, the transformation is exciting; it’s a vibrant city now, full of life and color, with some of the best ethnic restaurants (and entertainment) in the world. There are a couple of Russian places in Sunny Isles Beach which rival anything you could find in Moscow or Kiev, for example.

    “BTW I love my peccadillo and platanos.”

    It’s picadillo, Netram. A “Pecadillo” (sic) is a minor sin.

  • Zedd

    Nancy

    I have to agree with you on the spelling of English. I learned to spell phonetically and English just doesn’t make sense. Also there are many letters with the same sound. Por que’? Still no excuse for my bad spelling. Just gobberness :o)

    Actually I understand the evolution of the language and he various influences.

    HOWEVER, if Asians can learn English, I mean really….

    I can BS my way around rudimentary Spanish because a lot of the words are the same. There is no similarity between Cantonese and English or Laotian and English. They manage eventually.

    But again, a lot of the Mexican population that is coming in illegally does not have an education past 7th grade so learning the language formally would be difficult.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Zedd says:

    “a lot of the Mexican population that is coming in illegally does not have an education past 7th grade so learning the language formally would be difficult.”

    True, but IF they stay (many, if not most, won’t), their children WILL speak English; probably much better than Spanish.

  • Zedd

    Clav

    I know that. Remember I live here, Tejas!?!.

    The problem in this generation of immigrants is the volume in specific areas. It would be nice for them to learn words like “excuse me”.

    However what I also appreciate is someone who speaks to me in their own native language (because they cant speak English) to demonstrate a respect for my humanity. Its such a sweet gesture. You know what they are conveying and its just a special moment between two people. You both nod and smile a lot but the meaning is clear. You recognize “gracias” and they recognize “thank you”. Nice!

    Again one has to recognise that this community consists of people from divers backgrounds back home. Some are from “the hood” in Mexico and could be just rough and rude like most large city dwellers and some people from the country side who are gentle and engaging.

  • Nancy

    Actually, the difficulty with Chinese is the tonality, not the rest of it. For example, Chinese sentences are set up in exactly the same way they are in English: subject-verb-object. Even reading the characters isn’t so horrible once you know a couple dozen ‘radicals’ – the little part of the character that gives an indication of what it’s referring to. But the tonality thing … say “ma” the wrong way & you could be referring to something very wrong.

  • Zedd

    Nancy,

    Thanks for that on Chinese. My daughter will be learning Chinese starting in September. She is so excited. I’ll make sure to tell her.

  • Nancy

    Zedd – she’ll love it. There’s a really, Really, REALLY good book about Chinese language & writing called “Swallowing Clouds” by A. Zee (yes, his real name). It examines the Chinese language & characters through, of all things, menus – altho actually it wanders all over the place, but always gets back to the typical Chinese menu, which most people, after all, have access to. Along the way he references amusing personal anecdotes, legends, myths, history, poetry, you name it. It’s VERY readable & entertaining for anybody, not just those wanting to learn Chinese.

  • Lumpy

    Jerry. Thomas Jefferson would have said “welcome to america, amigo.” he was for open and unrestricted immigration. That’s because he believed in freedom regardless of race or origin. Too bad he’s not around these days.

  • Nancy

    Are you channeling him from beyond the grave that you “know” what he would/might have said? Bush-shit. It’s hard enough to “know” what we think or will say/do ourselves, let alone predict for anyone else. Stick to what you can say for yourself & try not to pronounce for the deceased, unless somewhere in his writings he actually, literally wrote, “welcome, amigos”.

  • Jerry

    Wrong Lumpy.
    They were too close to the bloodshed of the American revolution to consider American citizenship as something that could come without cost. He would be horrified that we so easily flaunt the privilege as some cheap thing available to any who just show up illegally.

    The invasion from the South is not something they remotely had in mind when referring to immigration during their time. Your applying the typical liberal distortion, and the Founders would chew your ass out.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry sez:

    “Your applying the typical liberal distortion, and the Founders would chew your ass out.”

    I don’t think so. The Founders were Liberals.

    The whole concept of the United States, with its Federal/State structure, and the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights, are Liberal ideas.

    Very Liberal for their day.

  • Netram

    Clavos,

    “I don’t think so. The Founders were Liberals.

    The whole concept of the United States, with its Federal/State structure, and the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights, are Liberal ideas.

    Very Liberal for their day.”

    The founding fathers could have in no way predicted or envisioned the mass illegal migration from south of the border that is happening today. It is stretching it to say the least that just because they were liberal thinkers, they would be Ok with the astronomic numbers that are crossing in 2007.

    Fact:

    2.5 million
    In July 1776, the number of people living in the colonies. (1776 population from Historical Statistics of the United States: Colonial Times to 1970.)

    Let’s say we could go back in time to 1776. We inform Jefferson that in the year 2007 the number of illegal immigrants attempting to cross our borders each and every year was approx. equal to the total number of people living in the USA at the time of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Do you really think he would feel warm and fuzzy inside at that fact? Do you really think while writing DOI 231 years ago they could have imagined the insanity of what is going on today and approved of it?

  • zingzing

    netram, clavos, et al…

    jefferson is dead. jefferson fucked his slaves. jefferson has nothing to do with this. jefferson has no opinion on the matter because the part of his brain that has opinions was eaten by worms.

    america is a nation of immigrants, and was more-so in jefferson’s time. jefferson probably had no problem with immigration. but who is to say.

    as for sucking our resources, be they money or hospitals or anything else, it’s the fucking baby boomers that we have to watch out for. who gives a fuck about immigrants? we’ve got 50-100 million people who are old and stealing our hospital beds and social security and jobs. old fuckers, just go ahead and die or something. shit… pretty soon there won’t be enough ground in america to bury our dead. i’m just gonna burn you, mom and dad.

  • Netram

    #96 zingzing.

    How old are you, twelve?

    What more needs to be said after that clueless tirade? If you weren’t being funny then that was one of the most pathetic statements I have ever read on this site.

    “Immigrants” are the ones that are going to double our population in the next 80 years. Them and there record breaking fertility rates. Not BB’s who are being responsible and only having the number of children that they can afford to raise on their own.

    BB’s worked all their lives for the benefits they are entitled to when they retire.

    “Immigrants” illegally crossing the border as little as 6 months ago are not entitled to a path toward citizenship and all the benefits that go with it, the same as someone who has lived here all their lives and paid into the system.

    “Immigrants”? LOL Good Lord, it’s illegal aliens. Look it up it’s in the dictionary.

  • zingzing

    “If you weren’t being funny then that was one of the most pathetic statements I have ever read on this site.”

    i said i was going to burn up my parents. get a grip.

    “”Immigrants” are the ones that are going to double our population in the next 80 years.”

    no they aren’t.

    “Them and there record breaking fertility rates.”

    from what i’ve seen they’re not much worse than any other group. of course, they are catholics. fuckin catholics.

    “BB’s worked all their lives for the benefits they are entitled to when they retire.”

    read up on social security before you say that. back in their day, the number of workers working for the retiree was the reverse of what it is today. they are sucking us all dry.

    “”Immigrants” illegally crossing the border as little as 6 months ago are not entitled to a path toward citizenship”

    not entitled to a path towards citizenship? why the hell not? don’t you want their money? what the fuck is wrong with you people? TAKE THE FUCKING MONEY!

    “”Immigrants”? LOL Good Lord, it’s illegal aliens. Look it up it’s in the dictionary.”

    oh, shut it.

  • zingzing

    (in case it’s not obvious, i’m saying you and your fellow nativists are a bunch of paranoid scaremongers who pick out a target “problem” and blow it out of proportion. truth is immigration is the same as its ever been, nativists are the same as they’ve ever been, the cycle keeps on spinning and all you don’t even see how the “nativist” of today was the racist of yesterday. in other words, you woulda hated the irish, you woulda hated the eastern europeans, you woulda hated everyone who wasn’t like you, even though you were once just like them.)

  • Nancy

    Oh, hell, Zing – probably most of us ARE Irish, somewhere, somehow; they are among the most prolific breeders on the planet, after all. Being fucking catholics, of course.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    The Founders were CLASSIC liberals, not the prototypes of today. There is a huge difference.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry says:

    “The Founders were CLASSIC liberals, not the prototypes of today”

    True, Jerry.

    My point is that the underlying bedrock principles of individual freedom embodied in the Bill of Rights, as well as Classic Liberalism’s respect for human dignity and freedom of thought and association would not shut the door on immigration.

    I strongly disagree with your contention in comment #93, that the Founding Fathers:

    “…were too close to the bloodshed of the American revolution to consider American citizenship as something that could come without cost. He would be horrified that we so easily flaunt the privilege as some cheap thing available to any who just show up illegally.”

    Everything I’ve read by and about them stresses the point that they fought the Revolution for freedom from tyranny, and all the other reasons we were all taught in grade school, not for the concept of “citizenship.”

    Citizenship, especially as we define it today, came about much later. The Founders were focused much more on individual Liberty (capital “L”) for all, and were not particularly concerned about on establishing who was, or was not a “citizen”, other than in the most broad meaning of the word, as opposed to today’s strictly defined meaning.

    With the unfortunate and most egregious exception of slavery, theirs was a philosophy of inclusion, not exclusion.

  • Dr Dreadful

    The Founders were CLASSIC liberals, not the prototypes of today.

    Now there’s an odd take on logic. If the Founders were classic liberals, how can today’s liberals be prototypes?

  • Netram

    zingzing, Here are some facts an open borders xenophile like yourself need to know.

    300 million and counting San Francisco Chronicle (Not necessarily a bastion of conservative thought)

    1. In 1972, our total fertility rate was 1.9, with just over 2 immigrants per 1,000 population entering the United States. Today, we have higher total fertility of 2.1 plus higher immigration of 3.2 per 1,000 population. Already the world’s third most populous country, we are growing faster than any industrialized nation. Since the birth-control pill was introduced in 1963, birthrates stabilized for many but not all Americans: fertility rates are currently 1.8 for whites, 1.9 for Asians, and 2.0 for African Americans, versus 2.8 for Hispanics. A 2002 Center for Disease Control and Prevention study found that 17 percent of Hispanic births unwanted and 27 percent mistimed versus 11 percent unwanted and 18 percent mistimed Anglo births. (Mistimed means having the child sooner than the woman wanted.) This needs more study but suggests disparities in access to family planning and/or sex education.

    In other words, immigration has grown by more then a third per 1000 people since 1972. Unwanted and mistimed Hispanic births are twice as high as Anglos. You can Google “Hispanic birth rates” or Immigrant fertility rates” or Hispanic teen birth rates” to find all the proof you need. Immigration is the driving force to our coming population explosion.

    “not entitled to a path towards citizenship? why the hell not? don’t you want their money? what the fuck is wrong with you people? TAKE THE FUCKING MONEY!”

    What money? The majority of illegal aliens are poor, with less then a high school education. The jobs they are taking are at the lower end of the pay scale. Many will pay very little taxes and some will pay known especially with the earned income tax credits our government is ready and willing to give them. In other words they are a net drain on our economy. They pay in to the system less then they pay out.

  • STM

    Nancy wrote: “But the tonality thing … say “ma” the wrong way & you could be referring to something very wrong.”

    Same as Australia, Nancy. Mandarin speakers are aware of the pitfalls too. Back to English (kind of) There are 30 different ways of saying “mate” in Australia, all with different meanings. Say it the wrong way, and you could get a smack in the head (if you’re a bloke).

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Netram,

    The replacement fertility rate is roughly 2.1 births per woman in most industrialized countries. Thus, according to the figures you cite, in the US, ONLY the Latinos are above replacement rate presently, and even they are only .7 above. All the other racial groups are below.

    As for the immigration rate, not even the most ardent pro immigrant advocates argue that we should leave the border open and continue to allow huge numbers of people to come in, either illegally or legally. So, if we close the border tightly, as the vast majority of Americans want to do, the immigration rate will drop precipitously, and immediately.

    You say:

    “What money? The majority of illegal aliens are poor, with less then a high school education. The jobs they are taking are at the lower end of the pay scale. Many will pay very little taxes and some will pay known especially with the earned income tax credits our government is ready and willing to give them. In other words they are a net drain on our economy. They pay in to the system less then they pay out.”

    Actually, about 45% have less than a high school education, according to Pew Research. But that point ignores their children, who will, by virtue of growing up here, be MUCH better educated, and therefore much better paid workers than than their parents. This has been true of virtually ALL prior immigrant groups, and is a reality among the Latinos who have already been here for more than one generation, such as the Tex-Mex populations of the border states.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    The Founders wouldn’t have condoned inclusion to the detriment of the existing population. It is a real stretch to conclude that they would consider this huge influx of people who are not rightly entitled to the benefits of the existing (citizens ?)population as a wonderful example of their classic liberal thinking.

    They created our democratic republic and honored the will of the people; and informed people that is. The globalist minded elites in both parties are showing their true colors on this issue, and some Americans are starting to catch on.

    I understand that the world is different now and it’s global trend taking place, as it was when the first American liberals envisioned their plans for America, but I think we err if deviate too far from the tried and true. The difference between then and now is the fact that they carefully and painstakingly established the founding principles in light of their understanding of human nature which includes tyranny.

    Nowadays it seems that all we care about is bowing at the altar of economic growth as the one big fix-all of every problem.

  • Jerry

    Doc –

    Sorry, my inferior education is coming out. BTW do you consider yourself a prototype of TJ?

  • Dr Dreadful

    If you mean Tom Jefferson, no. The only prototype I can lay claim to is myself… should I go into general production, do you think?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry,

    “The Founders wouldn’t have condoned inclusion to the detriment of the existing population”

    Nor do I, Jerry. Nor do I.

    Obviously, we have difference of opinion as to whether or not the illegals constitute a “detriment [to] the existing population.”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    The founding fathers could have in no way predicted or envisioned the mass illegal migration from south of the border that is happening today.

    Really? The founders lived in a time when the population increased – through immigration – from 1.75 million to 17.5 million in a period of 30 years. That’s a rate of 33% a year, 20 times the current rate of population growth. If they’d done a projection based on that they could do nothing but expect massive population growth, far beyond the limits of the physical land and the agricultural capacity and technology of the period, yet this did not lead them to become paranoid the way peole are today with a tiny fraction of that growth rate and so much more in the way of resources to deal with it.

    dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Them and there record breaking fertility rates.

    The average native couple has 1.9 children. The average Mexican couple in Mexico has 2.3. The average Mexican immigrant couple has 2.1 children. Do those sound like ‘record breaking’ rates of reproduction? The truth is that they’re low in comparison to most of the world.

    Dave

  • STM

    Dave, you’re just arguing with people whose real issue here is about race and the perceived notion that because of their “alien” culture, Mexicans can’t possibly fit into America’s anglo society (despite the fact that millions have).

    Like I say, if the illegal immigrants were white, anglo-celtic English speakers or Europeans, you wouldn’t be having this argument. Can you imagine them trying to stop Australians, Brits or Canadians with the same level of vehemence?

    The idea that those three nationalties were reproducing like rabbits in America wouldn’t even raise a blip on their radar screens. It’d be: “Good, send more”.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Dead on. On all counts, Stan.

  • Netram

    Dave, All I have to say is 2.5 million people in 1776 and OMG, get ready. 17.5 million in 1806 with room to grow. Is that what you are saying? You don’t think things are just a little different today with 301 million people. When do we say hmmmmm maybe we should think about this? Where are we headed? Is this good for the country?

    You cannot compare 1776 with 2007. It’s like comparing polar opposites in the universe.

    I was out picking up garbage back in Pennsylvania back in 1970 when the first Earth Day was celebrated. I really do care about the planet and our country. Mass immigration will lead to a population explosion in this country that will hurt us and lower the quality of life for everyone. Doubling our population in a place that has finite resources just doesn’t mix.

    Here in Florida we just went thru a drought. Lake Okeechobee was at it’s lowest level ever! We were down to watering lawns once a week. What it going to be like when Florida’s population doubles in 50 years to 36 million. That is the projection.

    Population May Double In 50 Years

    Are we going to have desalinization plants in every coastal city? The highways in Dade and Broward are 5-7 lanes bumper to bumper now. I guess we will be double decking all roads to meet the demand. This is insanity.

    As I said before, our most trusted population projection agency, The US Census Bureau projects our entire country will double it’s population in about 80 years from 300 million to 600 million. We know it is going to happen but still the flood gates are open and mass migration into this country is continuing and being pushed by many forces to increase it even further. It’s like we are all deaf, dumb, and blind to the cataclysmic train wreck up ahead. We know it’s coming, we could do something about it now to stop it, but we just ignore the warning sings along the way. Madness!

  • Blocked Dude

    Like I say, if the illegal immigrants were white, anglo-celtic English speakers or Europeans, you wouldn’t be having this argument. Can you imagine them trying to stop Australians, Brits or Canadians with the same level of vehemence?

    There is, of course, some truth to that. But not enought to make it racist.

    As I said, some reasons people oppose excess immigration are cultural, political, economic, and environmental.

    With Canucks, Brits, and Aussies coming, the cultural impact would be far less – they share a very similar culture. They wouldn’t be arguing for throwing out Shakespeare in favor of Neruda. What’s more, people could actually understand them when they talked (well, except for the Aussies). There wouldn’t be a danger of creating a linguistic ghetto.

    Those countries also have fairly similar political values, so the political effect would be less.

    In terms of education and skills, a Canuck/Brit/Aussie immigration wave would, doubtless, be pretty diverse. They wouldn’t be only competing against certain segments of the labor market.

    And, obviously, the racial differences are a constant reminder of our government’s failure to limit immigration to a reasonable amount.

    For example, the town I work in in now I also lived in about 15 years ago. 15 years ago there were almost no Hispanics. Now they make up at least 1/4th of the town. It only makes the change obvious. If it had been a wave of Canucks it wouldn’t be as obvious, because they’d look and talk pretty much like the old residents.

    A good analogy would be to the use of radioisotopes in medicine. Physicians use radioactive versions of normal chemicals to diagnose disease. The radiosotopes allow them to “see” inside the body.

  • Blocked Dude

    Re: Clavos’s “booming” Miami economy

    So, I get the latest issue of Fortune in my mailbox today. I’m looking to invest in some real estate, so I open it up to the article on “Bargain Hunting for Condos.”

    First city listed: Miami. What does it say?

    “In housing markets across the country, the reassuring refrain goes a little something like this: At least it’s not as bad as Miami…Nowhere has the real estate slowdown hit as hard as it has here.”

    Clavos, it looks like your alleged Miami “boom” was built upon the sand. But then the economies of third world countries are always like that, no?

    (Oh, and I should mention that the second city listed was Naples.)

  • Blocked Dude

    Are we going to have desalinization plants in every coastal city?

    The highways in Dade and Broward are 5-7 lanes bumper to bumper now. I guess we will be double decking all roads to meet the demand.

    The US Census Bureau projects our entire country will double it’s population in about 80 years from 300 million to 600 million.

    This is insanity. – Netram

    You see, you just made several logical, valid, fact-filled arguments, Netram. But nevermind: it’s all just about racism. You see, we’re all just loud, ignorant, racist hicks making emotional arguments and we should all just shut up.

  • Netram

    STM,

    “Like I say, if the illegal immigrants were white, anglo-celtic English speakers or Europeans, you wouldn’t be having this argument. Can you imagine them trying to stop Australians, Brits or Canadians with the same level of vehemence?”

    That is so what you want everyone to believe. That is your damn opinion. Nothing more! You can’t prove it. Fact!

    I will be the first to stand up and say among other things,I am fighting for my countries national identity and culture. I don’t care what color you are but you better be willing to assimilate and speak English if you’re coming here. If you want to call that racism go ahead.

    I’d say pretty much every country in the world would be reacting the same way if this massive illegal movement of people was happening to them. Look at Mexico’s Southern border. Look at Europe. Look at Australia. Look at Hong Kong. I just read an article about illegal immigration problems in S. America. LOL

    Migrants only make up 0.5% of the population In Mexico. If this was happening in Mexico. Millions of poor, uneducated, English speaking Anglos, illegally crossing the border. Creating Anglo ethnic enclaves all over the country, demanding rights,(It’s against the law to protest in Mexico if your not a citizen) speaking English, changing the culture of Mexico and making it Whiter and more European like. The proud Mexicans people as they keep telling us, would be starting a revolution to stop it. The immigration policies in Mexico’s Constitution are ten times stricter then ours against both legal and illegal immigrants. Hypocrisy doesn’t even cover it!

    In brief, the Mexican Constitution states that:

    * Immigrants and foreign visitors are banned from public political discourse.
    * Immigrants and foreigners are denied certain basic property rights.
    * Immigrants are denied equal employment rights.
    * Immigrants and naturalized citizens will never be treated as real Mexican citizens.
    * Immigrants and naturalized citizens are not to be trusted in public service.
    * Immigrants and naturalized citizens may never become members of the clergy.
    * Private citizens may make citizens arrests of lawbreakers (i.e., illegal immigrants) and hand them to the authorities.
    * Immigrants may be expelled from Mexico for any reason and without due process.

    Mexico’s glass house How the Mexican constitution treats foreign residents, workers and naturalized citizens

    It is only natural to want to protect what you love and are proud of. There is God, country, and family. The emotions run deep. You can’t deny that.

    It’s not about color, it’s about culture. I get accused of being a racist all the time. It’s the typical response from the open borders crowd. They try and take your power away by pointing a finger at you and demonizing you. They are very angry. I get the feeling they get comfort and satisfaction out of name calling. The enemy deserves to be hurt. They are hurting us so let’s hurt them back. It all rolls off my shoulders after awhile. I know what I am. They don’t. I am happy about who I am and what I stand for.

    Jose, my Cuban partner has gone with me to a couple of rallies. The open borders contingent call him a coconut for betraying his race. It’s disgusting! But it works, he does not like to go because he is branded a racist to his own kind.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    BD,

    The housing “crash” (much overhyped by the media) is nationwide. It has nothing to do with immigrants, most of whom couldn’t afford the condos, anyway.

    Despite the housing slowdown, Miami’s economy, as I’ve pointed out previously, continues to boom, because it’s diversified. The cruise port continues to thrive, the airport, ditto. office construction is heavy (there are 28 construction cranes visible in downtown at this time), the medical industry is thriving; they can’t find enough nurses to fill demand, and are now recruiting from foreign countries for nurses (uh oh, more immigration) the luxury boat business (generates $3 billion annually for Florida, mostly in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale), etc., etc.

    “Oh, and I should mention that the second city listed was Naples.”

    The wealthiest city in the nation in terms of per capita income, and not particularly high in percentage of immigrant population.

    “The highways in Dade and Broward are 5-7 lanes bumper to bumper now. I guess we will be double decking all roads to meet the demand.”

    A pain in the ass, no question, I mentioned it myself upthread, but it’s a sign of prosperity, if for nothing else, for the auto dealers here. Note how many of those cars are BMWs, Mercedes, Lexus, and even Bentleys (Miami is Bentley’s biggest market in the US; even beats out Hollywood).

  • Nancy

    Huccome all we’re discussing is Hispanic illegals? From what I’ve seen/read a sizable proportion are from Africa & Asia/China – also being smuggled in by ‘snakeheads’ – the asian equivilent of coyotes, who are just as if not even more vicious.

    I still say, criminalize the hell out of providing jobs, prosecute the employers to the hilt & make flaming examples of them – especially the more socially prominent ones, the Scooter Libby types – & a good deal of it will dry up by itself. Add to that making punishment for the smugglers & their accessories literally a death penalty matter – since in the course of their illegal smuggling they routinely endanger, if not are actually responsible for considerable mortalities – & then DO IT without years of wrangling & appeals – & that, too, will naturally decrease altho I don’t think it will ever completely dry up, since there’s always some scumbag willing to try no matter what to beat the odds.

    Meanwhile, the one benefit I DO see readily, regardless, is that the local cooking/foodie choices are tremendous. Everybody loves to eat, & of course there are lots of tiny places opening up that serve up the best “home-cooking” from all over the world, plus new, exotic markets to supply them. Zowie! My favorite place serves up fresh warm tortillas topped w/beans, various cheeses, & other goodies, but it tastes like nothing Taco Bell could ever produce-! The little place next door is general S. American Quechua (lots of potato-&-peanut concoctions), & the little place down the street from that does Indian/Pakistani/Afghani stuff that isn’t geared to mainstream US tastes at all. It’s a gourmet’s/gourmand’s paradise around these parts.

  • Blocked Dude

    Clavos,

    Any idiot can create a booming economy through massive population growth. The big question is, What happens when the growth stops, as it inevitably must? In the meantime, what happens to quality of life while the population growth continues? Sitting in traffic an extra hour a day and watching your lawn go brown is not how most Americans would define quality of life.

    Journalists, poltiicians, and all the rest keep wondering why George Bush keeps getting so little credit for the eocnomic growth. Stagnating incomes and reduced quality of life is why.

    The larger trends are not promising. We are financing this growth with huge debt. The federal debt has continued to soar, individual consumer debt just keeps growing, and the trade deficit is approaching $1 trillion. Why is our economy booming? Because China and other nations are lending money to us, that’s why.

    It’s a superficial way of generating growth, and long-term prosperity is put at risk.

    The only way to long-term prosperity is to increase the net productivity of the natives. Importing millions of uneducated workers doesn’t fix that problem – it makes it worse.

  • Clavos

    “Any idiot can create a booming economy through massive population growth. The big question is, What happens when the growth stops, as it inevitably must?”

    That’s exactly what the “idiot” USA has done for the past 230 years, and we’re still a long way from overpopulated. The “inevitable” assumes, as did Malthus and Ehrlich, no changes in the future; either in growth or in such areas as technology and agriculture. Assumptions which proved to be invalid in both those cases.

    “Sitting in traffic an extra hour a day and watching your lawn go brown is not how most Americans would define quality of life.”

    I’ll give you the traffic point, but your lawn going brown is the fault of our craven politicians who authorized the draining of the Everglades on behalf of the developers who had bribed them, going all the way back to the 1920s. The immigrants have nothing to do with it; it’s a problem of us having destroyed the ecosystem of South Florida beginning 90 years ago, and it’s ongoing: they (the politicians) are STILL bending over for the developers; this time regarding the Eight Square Mile tract of the Everglades.

    “We are financing this growth with huge debt”

    Uh uh. We are financing George’s WAR with huge debt. Overall, the immigrants, especially when the legal ones are counted ADD to the economy, not subtract.

    I have linked a number of studies by Pew Research and one by Florida International University that prove this. Dave Nalle has also presented evidence to that effect.

    “The only way to long-term prosperity is to increase the net productivity of the natives”

    American worker productivity is among the highest in the world.

    Mortimer B. Zuckerman, Editor-in-Chief of U.S. News & World Report said, in a recent editorial:

    “The tide of Hispanic immigration today has similar roots, with two important differences: The European waves were legal, and immigration from the south of America, especially Mexico, is mainly illegal. The numbers are also on a wholly different scale from the immigration of the 20s and 30s. These factors understandably raise apprehensions, but so far the evidence shows that the new immigrants largely behave in positive ways similar to their predecessors. They are family oriented, they value education, and their children are learning English. Over time, they are intermarrying among growing numbers of other ethnic groups. They are people of faith. They are energetic, looking to move up in life through better jobs-they work hard and for long hours.”

    This wave of immigration is no different than the previous ones, except that this time it’s Latino peasants, instead of European peasants.

  • Netram

    Clavos,

    “we’re still a long way from overpopulated.”

    LOL Lord help this man.

    What is overpopulated to you?

    When every single square inch of country side, not that we have any of that left in S. Florida, is paved over and those tall concrete condos you seem to be so proud of take it’s place?

    Did you even read the article I linked concerning the projections that Florida’s population may double in 50 years. Is that just a joke to you?

    Population May Double In 50 Years Post #115

    Do we have to be “over populated” in a crisis mode before we do anything to stop it?

    You never answered my question. Do you want less or more immigration?

  • zingzing

    netram: “What is overpopulated to you? When every single square inch of country side[…] is paved over…?”

    that would be overpopulation, yes. but we are a “long way” from that now. lots of totally sparse areas out there, in case you’ve never left your hometown, which i hope is on the mexican border.

  • Clavos

    “Did you even read the article I linked concerning the projections that Florida’s population may double in 50 years. Is that just a joke to you?”

    Projections are just that: only projections; someone’s guess as to what will happen in the future; they are NOT hard and fast absolutes. For examples, look at the projections regarding population growth by The Club of Rome in the sixties ans seventies, by Paul Ehrlich in his book, The Population Bomb, in which he predicted we would, among other things, run out of food in the eighties, or those of Thomas Malthus several centuries ago, who also predicted widespread famine which never happened.

    Yes, I read the article. A joke to me? No, but not much cred, either.

    “You never answered my question. Do you want less or more immigration?”

    Nobody (not even my wife) cares what I “want,” so your question is irrelevant. Certainly, no decisions regarding immigration are going to be made based on what I “want”.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    Regarding #107.
    It is fruitless to get you, Dave and Stan away from the racist line, and I have done a thorough job of refuting the veiled (blatant by some) charge of being one. That said, the “detrimental” part I refer to has to do with the effects of illegal immigration, which I and many others have done a thorough job of detailing with personal experience and facts. If Denmark where half of my blond haired blue eyed ancestors originated was to the South, and they were flooding in, in violation of our sovereignty and law, I would likely be pretty opposed to it. Why? because I’m loyal to America, not some globalist vision that international elites have in mind for us.

    The most basic violation of constitutional principle found in this issue is the trampling of the rule of law. This is the primary thing that has set this country apart and kept us relatively successful. Whether you all admit it or not, you are shoving the rule of law aside as an inconsequential problem, in favor of your desire to see the implementation of Bush’s globalist vision. It’s also no surprise to see Stan and the Aussies on board with you. The Brits and Aussies have lost sight of such Yankee rubbish a long time ago.

    See you later. Maybe I’ll crawl out of my hole after the vote on the bill, and after I have a thorough understanding of what a “PROTOTYPE”. is.

  • Mickey

    “Our vile conspiratorial senators had to sneak behind close doors to plot treason with Open-Border and Amnesty Organizations and Business interests. They mean to slowly decimate our country. The Congressional Budget office reported to the senators, that ONLY 25% of criminal invasion would be stopped with this bill. That by issuing Z-cards, an infinite number will converge on America and in their wake they will literally destroy her environment. (that’s the entire southern border) The Heritage Foundation reported to the Senate that it would cost American tax payers a Trillion plus, yes that’s with a T, and that America would bankrupt , therefore becoming a 3rd World Country. ”

    ROFL!!!.

  • Dan

    here’s a comprehensive “portrait” of the type of people amnesty supporters want to flood the country with.

    Can Dave Nalle or Clavos find fault with any of the myriad statistical derivations and poll numbers, (all documented for approval) other than the typical default demonization of the author as nativist, or racist?

    Which, by the way he certainly is. And unapologetically so. Still truth is where you find it, and committed immigration crusaders should welcome the challenge of discrediting such a damning study.

  • Clavos

    Dan,

    Great report! Certainly a damning portrait of Latinos. No one in his right mind should want let them stay after reading it, that’s for sure.

    And I don’t think the New Century Foundation is either racist or nativist; just typical red-blooded God-fearing Christian Americans who don’t want to let crime ridden, poor, illiterate people into the country.

    Nothing wrong with that. Real Americans all said the same thing about the Irish that were let in about a hundred years ago, and look what happened, they were absolutely right: the country has been full of those vermin ever since. Did you see that TV program about the Irish gangs in New York? Animals! Boston should be wiped off the face of the earth – that would get rid of a bunch of those damn Micks. Scum.

    And don’t even get me started on all the crummy Poles in Milwaukee. Not to mention all those dumb Scandinavians and pig headed Germans in the Midwest.

    That’s the whole problem with this country; we’ve never had the guts to keep the world’s peasants out of here, so we’ve wound up with 300 million of the most low class disgusting people in the world.

    Deport ‘em all I say. Let the First Nations take their land back; they’re the ONLY ones with a legitimate right to be here.

  • Dan

    So it’s the default position then? Typical.

    The New Century Foundation is of course racist and nativist.

    Much like illegal immigration activist who carry signs that say: “today we march, tomorrow we vote”. What is it they mean by that? Will pig-headed midwestern German descendents like the way they vote? Should they just close their eyes and hope for the best?

    La Raza (“the race”) enthusiasts have a clear, cohesive knowledge of their racial identity. Their organization was afforded input in the proposed legislation. Naturally, they are all about advancing their racial interests.

    That OK with you?

  • Clavos

    Yes, it is.

    I certainly wouldn’t expect La Raza people to be promoting the interests of Swedes or Hungarians, any more than I’d expect to see Swedes and Hungarians looking out for the interests of Latinos.

    If the spics don’t look out for their own interests, who will?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I go away for a day, and there’s just too much tasty incredible stupidity to respond to. Where on earth should I start?

    Oh, how about here…

    As I said before, our most trusted population projection agency, The US Census Bureau projects our entire country will double it’s population in about 80 years from 300 million to 600 million.

    And do they project that this is going to happen because of illegal immigration? I don’t think so. It may be a factor, but it’s a small factor. It’s people breeding that’s the problem. Are you proposing a solution for that problem too? Perhaps a one child policy like they have in China? Or maybe mandatory euthanasia for the elderly? Hey, free abortions would help. Let’s run government PSAs supporting them and pay for them with state money. And while we’re at it, let’s have mandatory sterilization for welfare moms. Or wait, wars kill a lot of people. Let’s just invade Mexico and start exterminating people. That really goes to the root of the problem. Sound good? Those ideas would do way more for the problem than draconian immigration laws.

    We know it is going to happen but still the flood gates are open and mass migration into this country is continuing and being pushed by many forces to increase it even further.

    What floodgates? There’s no ‘flood’ of immigrants legal or illegal. Right now we’ve got virtually open borders and only about 12 million mexicans are here, and their numbers aren’t increasing at an alarming rate. That’s fewer immigrants – added to the legal ones – than we had in 1950 or 1900.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Regarding Netram’s repeated claim that the population is going to double and the country is going to be overrun, overcrowded, paved over, etc.

    Crowding in a country is represented by population density. The truth is that the US has relatively low population density and that there are countries which are successful and prosperous which have enormously higher population densities than we do.

    Just for refere,ce the US is the 172nd most densely poulated nation in the world with a density of 31 people per Km2. That puts us in the bottom quartile.

    No one could argue that Singapore is not a highly successful and prosperous and livable nation. Yet it has almost 200 times the population density of the US.

    Maybe you don’t like Singapore’s ethnic diversity and rather strict laws on morality. Well then how do you feel about The Netherlands. It’s as civilized and prosperous as you can get, plus it’s a more liberated society than ours in many ways, all of that with more than 12 times our population density.

    Or maybe it’s not comparable enough. Well, what country is more like the US than the UK? Our own mother country, with 8 times our population density.

    Or wait, you said your population was going to double? Well, that would give us the same density and the terrible pain and suffering they’re experiencing in Ireland – the most prosperous, successful and low-tax nation in Europe. Or perhaps we’ll all be crowded together like sardines the way they are in Uzbekistan – ever been there? It’s mostly unpopulated wasteland.

    The truth is that the nations with the highest standards of living and the highest level of civilization are mostly WAY more densely populated than the US is. Most of those who are as lightly populated as we are tend to be third world hellholes.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Ok, still catching up. I went and started to read the report from the New Century foundation. I skimmed the whole thing and the figures looked funny, so I started researching their footnotes and going page by page.

    It became immediately apparent that they’re just lying. Their own sources don’t support their assertions.

    They claim that Hispanics have half the income and one tenth the net worth of whites. In fact, Hispanics have about 80% of the income and 1/8th of the household net worth. Not surprising if a lot of them are immigrants just getting started in our economy.

    They claim that Hispanics are the largest users of welfare programs and that 50% of hispanic families use some form of welfare. But checking in with HHS, the facts are quite different. By most measures hispanics are roughly comparable to non-hispanic whites in use of welfare programs and by some more detailed measures which the NCF report doesn’t bother with, they’re actually better off than whites. For example, among hispanic families receiving welfare 4% more have a family member who is actually working, and hispanics who lose their jobs go out looking for and finding new ones sooner than whites. They also file about 30% fewer workmans comp claims than whites and file about half as often for social security disability.

    The report also claims that the hispanic high school dropout rate nationwide is three times that of whites, when it’s actually about twice as high. Interestingly, hispanic high school dropouts have a higher employment rate than high school dropouts of any other ethnicity.

    They claim hispanics have a 43% illegitmacy rate, when it’s actually only 12%. They also claim that 60 hospitals in California have closed because of the cost of health care for illegals, a claim which has already been thoroughly debunked on one of these immigration threads as an urban legend.

    It goes on and on, with half-truths, distortions and slight misrepresentations of the facts. So I thought I’d find out more about the New Century Foundation.

    Well, when you need info about racists, it’s always a good idea to check in with the jews over at the ADL. And they had a great deal of information about the white supremacists who run and are associated with the NCF, with a particularly good artilce on its founder Jared Taylor and his magazine of white supremacy American Renaissance.

    The ADL calls them ‘well mannered’ racists, and that’s about as well as it could be put. They aren’t openly anti-semitic, but they are white supremacists who attempt to ‘academify’ their hatemongering to legitimize it. But at root it’s still the same old garbage.

    So if the NCF is where you’re getting your source material, just stop telling us not to call you racists. That train has already left the station.

    Dave

  • STM

    Jerry: I don’t believe that if Scandinavians were flooding across the border you’d even bat an eyelid. Perhaps it’s not about race … but it certainly, in your case at least, seems to be about “culture”.

    If 500,000 red neck Aussies turned up en masse and settled in Texas, with their virtually identical cultural mores, no one in America would give a damn – as a mate of mine who lives there has already experssed to me, and he doesn’t support the immigrants either.

    This isn’t about the collapse of rule of law (it won’t happen) or about numbers for most people, it’s about fear – and the one thing everyone forgets here is that America is built on immigration, it’s been a multicultural society for 200 years (admittedly with varying degrees of success) and is already full of descendants of Latino immigrants who are now as American as the next American.

    Please, don’t try to snow me with assertions that for most opponents of any amnesty, this isn’t about a dislike for the particular type of people who are now coming in ’cause, mate, I just don’t buy it.

  • Netram

    Clavos,

    Nobody (not even my wife) cares what I “want,” so your question is irrelevant. Certainly, no decisions regarding immigration are going to be made based on what I “want.”

    In other words you’re in favor of more immigration.

  • Netram

    netram: “What is overpopulated to you? When every single square inch of country side[…] is paved over…?”

    that would be overpopulation, yes. but we are a “long way” from that now. lots of totally sparse areas out there, in case you’ve never left your hometown, which i hope is on the mexican border.

    You mean build mega urban jungles in the middle of the desert? Pave over millions of acres of agricultural land to make way for parking lots and water parks? With the population doubling, we will need more AG land not less. Unless you want to count on foreign governments to supply us with the food we will need to survive. I could go on but you get my drift.

    I live in Broward County, Florida, one county north of Latin America so you were almost right.

  • STM

    Dave: “Most of those who are as lightly populated as we are tend to be third world hellholes.”

    Would that include Oz, tht well-known third-world hellhole? … 20 million on an entire continent :)

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    Although there are some densely populated areas, the USA as a whole certainly isn’t. US population is about 300 million; Europe has 500 million people in half the US land area and there are vast expanses of empty space and open countryside here.

  • Netram

    “What floodgates? There’s no ‘flood’ of immigrants legal or illegal. Right now we’ve got virtually open borders and only about 12 million mexicans are here, and their numbers aren’t increasing at an alarming rate. That’s fewer immigrants – added to the legal ones – than we had in 1950 or 1900.”

    Only 12 million? Only? LOL Or could it be 20?

    What ever you say Dave. I mean, only one seventh of the entire population of Mexico is here already, with thousands streaming across the border every day. Not too bad.

    I think Pew said if allowed, over half the population of Mexico would come here. Would you be at the border welcoming each and every one of them?

    If the number is 20 million, we could kick out every man, woman, and child living in the largest and second most populated state in the nation, Texas, and replace each and every one of them with the number of illegal aliens in the USA. That’s not too many, right? Make it one great big ethnic enclave. They’d like that.

    I’ll bet my fathers rare coin collection that the number of illegal aliens here is closer to 20 million.

    In 86 our lame government estimated 1.5 million would apply for amnesty. It turned out to be almost double that. Do I have to explain what that means for today? Add to that the new ones that will be coming with fake documents in hand saying they were here before Dec. 31, 2006.

    Amnesty will increase illegal immigration in the twelve months of the open application process for Z-Visas, After that, the new legion of “immigrants” will be marching towards the border knowing that all they have to do is hold out longer then the Anglos in Aztlan. Eventually amnesty and a path toward cheap citizenship will be the reward. It’s already happened twice 86 and 07. Let’s go for three as the charm.

  • Clavos

    “Only 12 million? Only? LOL Or could it be 20?”

    Yes, only.

    In 1890, during the heavy immigration of Europeans, 42% of New York’s population was foreign born.

    Other cities, same year:

    Chicago 41%

    Milwaukee 39%

    Minneapolis 37%

    Every one of those cities is as “American” (whatever that means) as apple pie, and all are among the greatest cities in the country. Could it be that all those immigrants were good for those cities, as they have been for the country as a whole?

    Oh wait, they weren’t Latinos.

  • Dan

    Dave: “I went and started to read the report from Century foundation…It became immediately apparent that they’re just lying. Their own sources don’t support their assertions.”

    Thats a pretty strong charge. Let’s have a look.

    Dave: “They claim that Hispanics have half the income and one tenth the net worth of whites. In fact, Hispanics have about 80% of the income and 1/8th of the household net worth.”

    If you look at US Census statistics (it’s a big file), page 11, you’ll see that 2004 per capita income for non-hispanic whites was $27,414 compared with hispanics at $14,106. Precisely the numbers quoted in the Century Foundation report.

    I’m guessing Dave ignored the “per capita” qualifier. It just means income per person in the houshold. Per capita income is used by social services to trigger welfare programs.

    Pew Hispanic Center says “Hispanic households have less than ten cents for every dollar in wealth owned by white households.”

    less than ten cents per dollar means less than 1 tenth, not 1 eighth as Dave instructs.

  • Dan

    Apparantly you’re not allowed more than 2 URL’s in a comment. So this is part 2:

    Well, no lies so far. How about 50% of hispanic households using some form of welfare? Dave says it’s roughly the same as the white rate. Well, if you look at US Census survey it says for hispanics of all income levels, top of the column under “in household that recieved means-test assistance” it says 49.6%. Well OK, not quite 50. But what of the white rate? US Census : 17.6%. Hmm, that sounds vaguely familiar.

    OK, still no lies, Surely Dave will come through with his claim that the hispanic drop-out rate is only twice as high as whites, not the grossly exagerated 3 times higher as in the report.

    If Dave is talking about 3rd generation hispanics, he’s right. The report gives them their due as well. But hispanics as a whole are indeed around 3 times more likely to drop out. 1st generation-3.5 times, 2nd generation- 2.5. The report is very comprehensive. Dave probably only read the summary. No lies yet.

  • Dan

    Part 3

    Dave: “They claim hispanics have a 43% illegitmacy rate, when it’s actually only 12%.”

    Surely this is a typo. 12% is about half the white rate. The “family values” gambit would really be meaningful if this were true.

    Sorry, the National Center for Health Statistics revises this figure upward to 43.4% in 2002. (page 3, under “illegitimacy ratio”) It’s even higher now.

  • Dan

    White rate:

    US Census : 17.6%. Hmm, that sounds vaguely familiar.

    OK, still no lies, Surely Dave will come through with his claim that the hispanic drop-out rate is only twice as high as whites, not the grossly exagerated 3 times higher as in the report.

    If Dave is talking about 3rd generation hispanics, he’s right. The report gives them their due as well. But hispanics as a whole are indeed around 3 times more likely to drop out. 1st generation-3.5 times, 2nd generation- 2.5. The report is very comprehensive. Dave probably only read the summary. No lies yet.

  • Dan

    I don’t think I need to go on. If the “debunking” of the 60 closed hospitals issue is on par with the “debunking” skill you’ve shown here, I already know which way the wind blows.

    Dave: “So if the NCF is where you’re getting your source material, just stop telling us not to call you racists.”

    I haven’t told you to stop. Being called a racist signals to me that you can’t contend. It would be nice to debate rationally, but I understand mass delusional psychosis. Ordinary logic doesn’t apply.

    Jared Taylor: “If we were rational, we would weigh the pros and cons and decide that the cons have it. If the newcomers were white but had Hispanic rates of crime, poverty, illegitimacy, school failure, etc. we would tell them to stay home. But the thought of telling non-whites to stay home turns whites to jelly.”

  • Clavos

    We could debate this (and the truth of NCF’s or the Government’s statistics all day long, but at the end of the day, it’s futile.

    Figures can be made to indicate whatever you want them to.

    The Mexicanos are here; they’re staying. So are the Venezuelans, the Guatemalans, the Costa Ricans, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, etc., etc.

    Nobody with the power to do so wants to throw them out.

    And that’s good.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    If you look at US Census statistics (it’s a big file), page 11, you’ll see that 2004 per capita income for non-hispanic whites was $27,414 compared with hispanics at $14,106. Precisely the numbers quoted in the Century Foundation report.

    Which is what I used to check the NCF figures, but I used the latest version of the report, not one that was 3 years old.

    I’m guessing Dave ignored the “per capita” qualifier. It just means income per person in the houshold. Per capita income is used by social services to trigger welfare programs.

    Of course I looked at household income, because per capita income is NOT what most forms of welfare use. The fact that more members of hispanic households work is an important consideration.

    Pew Hispanic Center says “Hispanic households have less than ten cents for every dollar in wealth owned by white households.”

    less than ten cents per dollar means less than 1 tenth, not 1 eighth as Dave instructs.

    Their terminology is imprecise. I’m going by figures for net worth collected by the census bureau.

    Surely this is a typo. 12% is about half the white rate. The “family values” gambit would really be meaningful if this were true.

    Sorry, the National Center for Health Statistics revises this figure upward to 43.4% in 2002. (page 3, under “illegitimacy ratio”) It’s even higher now.

    Because I was using documents from the census bureau, I went with the figures they had on the percentage of children living in households with a single female parent who had never been married, because that seems like a pretty fair assessment of illegitimacy. They have a rate of 12% for hispanics and 6% for whites.

    Well, no lies so far.

    I guess you can call them biased, selective or just inaccurate if you like.

    How about 50% of hispanic households using some form of welfare? Dave says it’s roughly the same as the white rate. Well, if you look at US Census survey it says for hispanics of all income levels, top of the column under “in household that recieved means-test assistance” it says 49.6%. Well OK, not quite 50. But what of the white rate?

    Well, I looked at figures from the Department of Human Services which actually oversees those programs, and they had lower numbers for both groups, and had them within a percentage point of each other.
    I haven’t told you to stop. Being called a racist signals to me that you can’t contend. It would be nice to debate rationally, but I understand mass delusional psychosis. Ordinary logic doesn’t apply.

    Dan, I haven’t called you a racist. But if you keep relying on racist sources, what do you expect people to conclude. And yes, nativism is an irrational and delusional psychosis, and I don’t expect to cure it all by myself.

    Jared Taylor: “It is certainly true that in some important traits–intelligence, law-abidingness, sexual restraint, academic performance, resistance to disease–whites can be considered superior to blacks.”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    What ever you say Dave. I mean, only one seventh of the entire population of Mexico is here already, with thousands streaming across the border every day. Not too bad.

    By my calculation it’s actually 1/9th, but why quibble? It only adds up to 4% of the US population. A minority that small won’t exactly be in a position to change the nation at will.

    I think Pew said if allowed, over half the population of Mexico would come here. Would you be at the border welcoming each and every one of them?

    That seems pretty improbable. I’d like to see what they base that assumption on. And no, I wouldn’t be welcoming them. As I’ve said before, I’m not particularly for uncontrolled immigration. I support a more developed guest worker program to reduce demand for immigration.

    If the number is 20 million, we could kick out every man, woman, and child living in the largest and second most populated state in the nation, Texas, and replace each and every one of them with the number of illegal aliens in the USA. That’s not too many, right? Make it one great big ethnic enclave. They’d like that.

    They actually tried to round up and remove all the illegals here in Texas for about 2 weeks last year. The state virtually ground to a halt. It had a terrible impact on all sorts of businesses and my breakfast taco was cold.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    If 500,000 red neck Aussies turned up en masse and settled in Texas, with their virtually identical cultural mores, no one in America would give a damn – as a mate of mine who lives there has already experssed to me, and he doesn’t support the immigrants either.

    My nextdoor neighbor’s an aussie. You and your 500,000 buddies can camp out in his yard.

    Dave

  • Dan

    “Which is what I used to check the NCF figures, but I used the latest version of the report, not one that was 3 years old.”

    The NCF report stated clearly that they were the 2004 numbers. If you are now saying that per capita income went from half to 80% (ridiculous) in 3 years post the link.

    “…per capita income is NOT what most forms of welfare use.”

    Food stamps, public housing, school lunches all want to know how many people are living on how much money.

    “Their terminology is imprecise. I’m going by figures for net worth collected by the census bureau.”

    I think I can clear this up for you. I think you found a measley 25% discrepency and made hay. Only skimming the report, you missed that Taylor gave 2 numbers for hispanic net worth. 7.9k and 10.4k. The second, your number, is for American born hispanics. The first is *all* hispanics.

    It seems petty to clutch at such trivial differences, and embarrassing for me to have to figure out how you went wrong. I know you’re busy putting out other fires.

    Still, I don’t think either one of us think net worth is a crucial criteria for being a good American. It might possibly correlate with unfortunate behaviours. But no behavioural scientist would touch it. Good people like you like to think poverty causes crime, not the other way around.

    ” Because I was using documents… I went with… because that seems like a pretty fair assessment of illegitimacy.”

    So you figured out your own definition of illegitimacy… and Taylor’s a liar? Nobody has said that any group has had that low a number in a long time. Except maybe Asians. Gee Dave.

    “I guess you can call them biased, selective or just inaccurate if you like.”

    I call them “unrefuted” so far.

    “Well, I looked at figures from the Department of Human Services”

    US Census not good enough this time eh? You could post your alternative numbers.

    ” Dan, I haven’t called you a racist. But if you keep relying on racist sources, what do you expect people to conclude.”

    I don’t know Dave. What do people think of you when you deny reality when “racist sources” turn out to be accurate.

    “Jared Taylor: “It is certainly true that in some important traits–intelligence, law-abidingness, sexual restraint, academic performance, resistance to disease–whites can be considered superior to blacks.””

    Yea, I think I remember this quote. It’s out of context of course.

    If I remember right, he’s explaining how throwing around words like “superior” and “inferior” get some people in a lather. These people then disengage mentally from anything that threatens their egalitarian dogma. Then they coerce silence out of anyone who, the vast majority of, have a healthy respect for humanity in individuals, but don’t go into meltdown over real group racial differences that have important consequences.

    That’s something he probably see’s a lot. You know the type.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    The NCF report stated clearly that they were the 2004 numbers. If you are now saying that per capita income went from half to 80% (ridiculous) in 3 years post the link.

    Not really. I’m just saying that the NCF numbers on this are wrong. I refer you to this report from the census bureau, and I quote:

    “The median for non-Hispanic
    White households was $50,800. The median for
    Hispanic households was $36,000.

    They’re referring to median income, and the hispanic median income is clearly 80% of that of non-hispanic white households.

    “…per capita income is NOT what most forms of welfare use.”

    Food stamps, public housing, school lunches all want to know how many people are living on how much money.

    Yes, but the per capita income which the NCF seems to be using is per capita income for individuals, not household income broken down by number of household members, which are two entirely different things.

    I think I can clear this up for you. I think you found a measley 25% discrepency and made hay. Only skimming the report, you missed that Taylor gave 2 numbers for hispanic net worth. 7.9k and 10.4k. The second, your number, is for American born hispanics. The first is *all* hispanics.

    The number I used does not specify American born. It refers to all hispanics. Take that as you choose to.

    Good people like you like to think poverty causes crime, not the other way around.

    You clearly don’t know jack shit about what I think if you think I’m ‘good people’.

    Ask anyone. I’m an evil, right-wing, elistist bastard. I think culture causes crime and poverty which are not particularly easy to distinguish from each other.

    But I also know that Mexicans are not the problem when it comes to crime. There are native-born groups which commit far more crime than any Mexican immigrants, and that’s not even bringing the Salvadorans into the picture.

    So you figured out your own definition of illegitimacy… and Taylor’s a liar? Nobody has said that any group has had that low a number in a long time. Except maybe Asians. Gee Dave.

    No, I’m saying Taylor picks and chooses his data to suit his purposes. I can do the same to suit mine.

    “Well, I looked at figures from the Department of Human Services”

    US Census not good enough this time eh? You could post your alternative numbers.

    DHS is the agency which has direct authority over welfare, so their data should be more accurate. The census is notoriously innacurate especially when it comes to minorities and illegals.

    I don’t know Dave. What do people think of you when you deny reality when “racist sources” turn out to be accurate.

    The point you miss here – and will never get – is that the arguments made by racists like Taylor are irrelevant. The issue of immigration has nothing to do with crime or illegitimate children or whether Mexicans eat dogs or smell funny. It has to do with our need for inexpensive labor and their need to earn better incomes and the fact that we share an indefensible border with them. Those facts are uncontrovertible, and need to be dealt with in a sensible way, not through some fairycake wall and a police-state persecution of business owners and the general public.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    I don’t know about you Dave. Sometimes you can be a real decent honest guy and then other times, such as in this article, you can be a real douchebag.

    I would think that as someone living in Texas you would be understand the plain and simple fact that when it comes to illegal immigration, Americans are fed up.

    It’s not racist, xenophobic nationalists we’re talking about here but average Americans who are tired of pressing one for English and paying artificially high costs for healthcare due in part to being forced to reimburse the care of illegals.

    This sentiment is growing and all one need do to realize this is open his or her eyes and ears.

    So I guess the question we must all ask ourselves when we stumble upon such an article is who are we going to believe…Nalle’s poll numbers or our lying eyes.

    I choose the latter.

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    “If this was happening in Mexico. Millions of poor, uneducated, English speaking Anglos, illegally crossing the border. Creating Anglo ethnic enclaves all over the country, demanding rights,(It’s against the law to protest in Mexico if your not a citizen) speaking English, changing the culture of Mexico and making it Whiter and more European like.”

    Actually, Netram, that did happen. It’s called Texas–and we know how badly that turned out!

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Archie, I’m a fine fellow when I agree with you, but when we disagree – even when I’m the one being logically consistent from one issue to another, I’m a ‘douchebag’. Perhaps you should consider that it may be that you’re just a bit inconsistent in your views.

    Dave

  • Netram

    Dave you said:

    “The point you miss here – and will never get – is that the arguments made by racists like Taylor are irrelevant. The issue of immigration has nothing to do with crime or illegitimate children or whether Mexicans eat dogs or smell funny. It has to do with our need for inexpensive labor and their need to earn better incomes and the fact that we share an indefensible border with them. Those facts are uncontrovertible, and need to be dealt with in a sensible way, not through some fairycake wall and a police-state persecution of business owners and the general public.

    Away from polls, and statistics, and facts, here is reality Dave. Many American employers when given the free choice, will higher cheap “immigrant” labor to increase their profits. Plain and simple. Not because they can’t find an American to do the job. Money trumps all in this upside down world of capitalism we have in the USA. For many, the act of patriotism and doing the right thing for America ends when greed and avarice enter the picture.

    Greed – excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves

    Desire – an inclination to want things

    Inclination – A characteristic disposition to do, prefer, or favor one thing rather than another; a propensity

    So greed is natural desire or an inclination to do one thing over another. We got that so far?

    I am asking you to really sit back and think about this. Just put yourself in the place of say, a small construction company. A company that is doing well. In no danger of going under or filing for bankruptcy. When given the choice between hiring Americans who are bonded, licensed, legal, skilled, and experienced for twenty bucs and hour and an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, with none of the above qualifications for ten bucs an hour, just who do you think they will hire?

    Remember this company is already making a profit. They don’t need to hire cheap “migrant” labor. But guess what, they do anyway. Why? Because they can. Because it has less to do with just making a profit and more to do with increasing that profit margin as much as possible, at any cost.

    In that company presidents mind, is he thinking about doing the right thing by hiring his fellow American worker at at living wage? Or is he thinking hmmmmmm if I hire “migrant” cheap labor, then I can make more money. I can pay off that Hummer I bought but still have four years of payments to go or maybe take a second vacation to Hawaii with my wife. Greed is what they call that. Reference above definition. There is nothing stopping him from choosing the later or the greedy option, besides his conscience of course. In fact, our government is setting it up so there is all the incentive in the world to rip of Americans and hire “immigrants” under the guise that there’s not an American to do the job. “Immigrants”, many of whom are not legally supposed to be part of the American economic equation because they are not even supposed to be here. Ain’t that enough to just piss of the average hard working American, trying to make ends meet like everybody else.

    So who is to stop you? Nobody!! In that moment Dave, if you were the President of that profitable company, sitting back in your chair and doing the numbers, what would you do? Would you do the right thing and hire and American or would you instinctually go for the greed and hire that Guatemalan at half price?

    BTW

    I know about the provision to “try” (oh thank you so much) and hire an American first. Let’s deal with the real world first. What is going on in the head of that construction company president first. We can deal with the “hiring Americans first” debate after you respond to what I have just presented. OK? Thanks.
    The point I am making is, all across the country these kinds of decisions are going on daily. Some will choose to do the right thing but many times they will choose the other option. That is wrong, that is unfair, that is hurting American workers, that is what I am angry about, and that is what I am fighting against.

  • Clavos

    Businesses exist to make a maximum return on the investment of their stockholders and/or owners; nothing more, nothing less.

    Wage levels in any market are determined by supply and demand.

    “Doing the right thing” is not part of the equation.

    In the areas with the heaviest immigration, such as Texas and Florida, there is no evidence that the immigrants are taking jobs from Americans because they work cheaper.

    Here in Miami-Dade county, construction jobs are going begging at $20/Hr. and up, depending on skill level. There aren’t enough immigrants to fill them, and, as you pointed out, Netram, the Americans have all left out of xenophobia, so the jobs aren’t being filled.

  • Dan

    “Not really. I’m just saying that the NCF numbers on this are wrong.”

    That is simply a lie. Taylor clearly labeled his figures “per capita income” and I posted the census stats that the data were obviously derived from.

    You can’t change the subject of the statistics and then claim the other guy is wrong. That’d be like me saying a 727 passenger jet seats 100, and you saying that’s wrong because a 747 seats 150.

    “They’re referring to median income, and the hispanic median income is clearly 80% of that of non-hispanic white households.”

    Dave, 36000 is 70.9% of 50,800 not 80%. 80% would be 40,640. Thanks for posting the link.

    Median household income just means that half the households are bringing in more and half are bringing in less. It doesn’t even consider the number of members in a household. Per capita is a more meaningful statistic because it tells you exactly how much individuals of a group have to get by on. That was the point of the statistic.

    “Ask anyone. I’m an evil, right-wing, elistist bastard.”

    All admirable traits to be sure. It’s the sophistry that troubles me.

    “No, I’m saying Taylor picks and chooses his data to suit his purposes. I can do the same to suit mine.”

    It’s just that Taylor uses the same data that 99% of us recognize as authoratively legitimate, if he did it your way, he’d lose credibility.

    “The issue of immigration has nothing to do with crime or illegitimate children or whether Mexicans eat dogs or smell funny.”

    Eating dogs and smelling funny, although unpleasant, wouldn’t be expensive. Crime and illegitimacy would. You have to weigh the costs. I’d rather pay more for goods and services.

  • Netram

    Clavos, “Xenophobia”? I guess you’re right if that means a drastic cultural change away from what you know and love to something forced upon you by outsiders who were once your invited guests. Your xenophilia is showing Clavos.

    You are soooooooo wrong I don’t know where to begin. Major point…

    Illegal aliens are not legally allowed to be a part of the American economic equation. They don’t belong here. They should not be a part of what makes a fair wage in this country. What part of illegal don’t you understand?

    Like I said before. You seem to care more about the rights and quality of life of foreigners coming to this country or already here, over your fellow American citizens. Are you an immigrant? You are an American citizen, correct? That was a serious question.

    Doing the right thing by looking out for American workers first over foreigners should certainly be a part of the equation. In fact, after much pressure, thank you Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), our lame hispandering Senate past an amendment (lame as it is), after much resistance from the left, an amendment to protect American workers by requiring employers to “try and hire Americans first”, before looking for immigrants to fill the job. From your rhetoric it sure sounds like you’re against what the Senate past.

    Are you for the complete collapse of the wage system in the United States? Letting cheap immigrant labor compete directly with American workers, without any safe guards would do just that. Eventually our pay scale would be no better then the places these third world “immigrants” are coming from. Globalization must be your middle name.

    I’ll leave you with this pleasant thought.

    “Fox News reported on a particularly tragic example of job displacement that took place in 2003: “Kevin Flanagan, a computer programmer with Bank of America, was fired from his job after being forced to train his replacement, an Indian worker who was taking over Flanagan’s job as part of Bank of America’s effort to replace its American workforce with foreign labor. Flanagan walked outside into his office parking lot and shot himself to death.”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Away from polls, and statistics, and facts, here is reality Dave. Many American employers when given the free choice, will higher cheap “immigrant” labor to increase their profits.

    Where do you get the idea that increasing profits is bad or for that matter that immigrant labor is all that much cheaper than the alternative?

    Plain and simple. Not because they can’t find an American to do the job.

    Except that in many cases you can’t. I’ll go into detail on this later.

    Money trumps all in this upside down world of capitalism we have in the USA. For many, the act of patriotism and doing the right thing for America ends when greed and avarice enter the picture.

    Acting in your self-interest so long as it does no harm to others IS the American way.

    I am asking you to really sit back and think about this. Just put yourself in the place of say, a small construction company.

    I can do better than that. My cousin owns a small landscaping company. His son owns a small construction company and I have a friend who owns a small construction and remodeling company. Having talked with all three of them I’m intimately familiar with who they hire and why.

    A company that is doing well. In no danger of going under or filing for bankruptcy. When given the choice between hiring Americans who are bonded, licensed, legal, skilled, and experienced for twenty bucs and hour and an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, with none of the above qualifications for ten bucs an hour, just who do you think they will hire?

    There are only a few jobs in construction where you need to hire someone ‘bonded, licensed, legal, etc’. Do you know what happens when you hire one of them, a Master Electrician or Master Plumber, for example? He comes out and looks at the site, gives his quote and when it’s time for that work to be done he sends over a crew of immigrants who he has trained and trusts to do the actual work.

    Or how about ‘skilled’ work that an individual might do. Have you ever tried to hire a skilled carpenter in an area where there’s a lot of construction? Good luck finding one who’s a legal citizen and who’s available to do any work at all in a reasonable period of time.

    Remember this company is already making a profit. They don’t need to hire cheap “migrant” labor. But guess what, they do anyway. Why? Because they can. Because it has less to do with just making a profit and more to do with increasing that profit margin as much as possible, at any cost.

    Another fallacy. In the areas where illegals are heavily employed they are NOT paid significantly less than legal workers, except that most of them may only be hired for lower skill jobs. You can’t get away with paying them less because there’s so much demand that because they’re willing to relocate they can ALWAYS find a job paying a reasonable wage.

    In that company presidents mind, is he thinking about doing the right thing by hiring his fellow American worker at at living wage? Or is he thinking hmmmmmm if I hire “migrant” cheap labor, then I can make more money.

    No, he’s thinking. Well, the only people who I can hire for this kind of work are high-school kids, ex-convicts and illegals. I guess I’ll hire the illegals because they actually show up for work the day after payday.

    I can pay off that Hummer I bought but still have four years of payments to go or maybe take a second vacation to Hawaii with my wife.

    LOL. You really have no clue at all about the entrepreneurial world, do you? The people I know who might be hiring illegals are working 18 hour days, have incredibly tight profit margins, and are driving 10 year old pickup trucks. They may have a nice house, because they built it, but they sure aren’t taking vacations – they can’t afford to, not because of the cost but because they don’t have the free time to go anywhere and still keep their business operating.

    Greed is what they call that.

    You clearly don’t grasp the difference between greed and enterprise.

    In fact, our government is setting it up so there is all the incentive in the world to rip of Americans and hire “immigrants” under the guise that there’s not an American to do the job.

    The government didn’t create the labor shortage? Unless you’re blaming them for creating too many good work opportunities for anyone with a couple of years of junior college who can speak English.

    “Immigrants”, many of whom are not legally supposed to be part of the American economic equation because they are not even supposed to be here. Ain’t that enough to just piss of the average hard working American, trying to make ends meet like everybody else.

    Why? It certainly doesn’t piss off hard working Americans here in Texas, because they get promoted into positions where they supervise the illegals. Their career advancement is rapid and they have incredible opportunities, built on this system of immigrant labor. My cousin’s son is only 24 and he’s got his own construction and development company because the construction job he worked during high school virtually shot him to the top of the business because he was the responsible white guy who could supervise the immigrant workers.

    So who is to stop you? Nobody!! In that moment Dave, if you were the President of that profitable company, sitting back in your chair and doing the numbers, what would you do? Would you do the right thing and hire and American or would you instinctually go for the greed and hire that Guatemalan at half price?

    If I could FIND an American I’d certainly hire him on the unlikely chance that he wasn’t an excon or a drunk. But I’d also hire the illegal, because I would need them both.

    The American workers who are being hurt are fictional. The ones who THINK they are being hurt are ones who are losing jobs in industries totally unrelated to those which are hiring illegals. It’s the pissed off auto worker in detroit who’s trying to make his $140,000 severance package stretch until he hits retirement age and doesn’t want to relocate to where the decent jobs are who’s pissed off. Never mind that he could take that severance money and buy a franchise business in Arizona and retire rich. He’d rather sit infront of the TV and bitch about immigrants. That’s the reality.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Netram, regarding your example about Flanagan killing himself. I have to ask why? He could easily have found another job if he was even halfway competent.

    My wife is in a position to hire people like him and when she posts jobs which require some basic computer skills and pay $60K a year with a nice benefits package she gets maybe 2 applicants and they’re either totally unqualified or half nuts. This isn’t an isolated phenomenon. Job listings in technical fields often remain unfilled for months around here.

    Businesses aren’t hiring indians because they’re cheaper, they’re hiring them because they can’t find anyone to do the work. Price may figure into it in a limited way. I guess if they offered a CEO level salary to PC maintenance guys they could find some to hire, but that’s just ridiculous.

    You’re not looking at both sides of the equation here. Businesses can only charge so much for their goods and services if they want to remain competitive in the marketplace. If they can’t find anyone to hire at a salary which fits within their budget then they’re screwed.

    Contrary to what seems to be your assumption, businesses aren’t the bad guys here. To a large extent they’re the victims.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “Clavos, “Xenophobia”? I guess you’re right if that means a drastic cultural change away from what you know and love to something forced upon you by outsiders who were once your invited guests.”

    It’s xenophobia, if, instead of staying and making sure what you “know and love” endures, you simply throw up your hands in disgust and leave because you don’t understand nor are willing to try to understand.

    And I might remind you that if you are of Irish, Italian, German, or Polish descent, or if you’re of Scandinavian, Eastern European, or Mediterranean ancestry, the same xenophobia was once directed at your ancestors.

    “Illegal aliens are not legally allowed to be a part of the American economic equation.”

    But they ARE part of it. Supply and demand doesn’t take into account the legal status of the participants in the market.

    “They don’t belong here. They should not be a part of what makes a fair wage in this country.”

    Your opinion, to which you are unquestionably entitled under our British originated freedoms. I disagree; to which I’m also entitled.

    “Are you an immigrant?”

    Yes. My paternal grandfather was Swedish. His wife, my grandmother, was a German, born in New York of a German-born mother and father.

    My maternal great-great grandparents were illiterate, dirty Irish peasants fleeing the 19th century potato famine in Ireland, looking to make a living here. Sound familiar?

    Being Irish, they were also pretty hard drinkers and got into a lot of fights when not working. They had way too many children, scandalizing their “native” neighbors in New York.

    “You are an American citizen, correct? That was a serious question.”

    Yes.

    “Doing the right thing by looking out for American workers first over foreigners should certainly be a part of the equation.”

    Not if it jeopardizes the investor’s ROI. Social “justice,” especially coerced social justice, is not an objective of business, and shouldn’t be, in a capitalistic system.

    “In fact, after much pressure, thank you Dick Durbin (D-Ill.), our lame hispandering Senate past an amendment (lame as it is), after much resistance from the left, an amendment to protect American workers by requiring employers to “try and hire Americans first”, before looking for immigrants to fill the job. From your rhetoric it sure sounds like you’re against what the Senate past.”

    You bet I am. It is not the proper role of government to interfere with business.

    “Are you for the complete collapse of the wage system in the United States? Letting cheap immigrant labor compete directly with American workers, without any safe guards would do just that.”

    You’re telling me that 4% of workers willing to work for a lower wage are going to cause a complete collapse of the wage structure of the entire economy? So my wife’s Peruvian neurologist is going to cause my nephew’s American pediatrician to cut his fees? Utinam. But, I don’t think so.

    ” Flanagan walked outside into his office parking lot and shot himself to death.”

    Sad story, if true. It’s worth noting that your source for it is the John Birch Society website. But, for the sake of argument, I have lost jobs through no fault of my own throughout my life without ever even thinking about shooting myself. Mr. Flanagan was clearly not mentally stable.

  • STM

    Dave: “My nextdoor neighbor’s an aussie. You and your 500,000 buddies can camp out in his yard”

    Lol!

    Hope it’s an Aussie-size yard, then, otherwise it’ll be a bit of a squash.

  • STM

    Netram: It’s quite likely that the Indian fellow was either a LEGAL immigrant brought in by Flanagan’s company, possibly on a lower wage but not neccessarily, or he was actually based in India and was being given a crash course.

    Blame greedy US businesses for outsourcing on that issue (Amex is a classic example … how often do you get the Amex call, or some other pesky call centre call, just on dinner time?)

    Although I’m in Australia, the same problem exists here. Aussie wages are high, therefore companies kill local jobs and hand them off overseas in a manoeuvre designed to save a few bob each way on the bottom line. It’s the ugly face of capitalism, and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants.

  • Bastalo

    If the pools quoted in the article are true, it only proves how easy it is to dupe the majority of Americans against their own best interest. I am veru skeptical given all the methods used by the powerful to manipulate the masses, that these polling numbers are correct. Most that I know are against law-breakers getting amnesty, which is effictively what the Comprehensive Immigration Bill does. How many US citizens can rob a bank, get caught, and still walk away with the loot? Yet illegal immigrants, law-breakers, march in the streets and the get citizenship! Us ordinary law-abiding citizens face down police in full riot gear, who often brutally suppress our exercise of free speech when we protest against policies that harm us all. Democracy ceased long ago, and now there is not rule of law in this nation anymore.