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I’m Not Paying For Your Abortion

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Let’s reward criminals by paying for their optional medical procedures…

———————
The US Supreme Court late Friday temporarily blocked a federal judge’s ruling that ordered Missouri prison officials to drive the woman to a clinic on Saturday for an abortion.
———————

Temporarily? How about we follow listen to the people and follow their damn laws?

——————-
Missouri state law forbids spending tax dollars to facilitate an abortion. However, U.S. District Judge Dean Whipple ruled Thursday that the prison system was blocking the woman from exercising her right to an abortion and ordered that the woman be taken to the clinic Saturday
——————

Right. I have a right to vote, but I lose it when I commit a felony. This woman lost the right to suck out a fetus with a tube when she broke the law.

THE LAW FORBIDS SPENDING PUBLIC FUNDS ON AN ABORTION. End of story. It doesn’t matter how badly this late wants to be rid of her unborn child, it matters that the public decided they don’t want to be forced to pay for it.

Guess who is paying for her legal fees?

The ACLU

They wonder why people don’t like them. With all the censorship in this country, they decide that the priority is usurping the voice of the people in Missouri. With all the people who desperately need competent legal counsel in this country, the ACLU decides criminals hell-bent on abortion are the most worthy.

Do they realize the door this opens up? If the court decides that criminality doesn’t restrict individuals from certain rights, then where does that leave felons? Actually, I know that answer. It leaves them right where the Democratic Party wants them: In the voter booth, checking Democrat.

Don’t worry though, the ACLU cares about some laws–namely ones that would help them get an abortion.

——————————
American Civil Liberties Union, said in court papers that the woman is running out of time because she is 16 weeks to 17 weeks pregnant, and Missouri bars abortions after 22 weeks.
——————————

So wait, the one that creates a timeline for when abortion occurs, that law is fine, but the one that says she can’t have fine at all, that’s bad? Hmmm? So we respect the Missouri law that says you can’t abort a fetus after 22 weeks but not the one that bars tax dollars from paying for it?

—————————-
The woman, whose name was not disclosed in court papers, has said she will borrow money for the abortion from friends and family but cannot afford to pay for transportation.

Under a policy adopted in July, Missouri’s prison system does not provide transportation or security for inmates seeking abortions. The policy is based on a state law that prohibits the spending of public funds “for the purpose of performing or assisting an abortion not necessary to save the life of the mother.”

State officials argued that their policy is reasonable because of the costs and security risks of transporting inmates outside for procedures the officials said are not medically necessary.
——————————

If the ACLU wants to fight for someone, how about they fight from the dedicated prison guards that would be forced to drive this woman around? What if they get in a crash? Or the woman attempts to hurt them? The logic behind this is stupendous, we are risking human lives so another human can travel to a doctor….TO END ANOTHER HUMAN LIFE. Fantastic.

——————–
“It is not the prison that has imposed the burden, but the prisoner’s violation of the law that resulted in her incarceration that has imposed the burden,” Attorney General Jay Nixon’s office said.
——————–

What do ya know? A little common sense from a gov’t official. As shocking as that is, the man is 100% correct. Perhaps if one does not want not surrender their rights to the state, they shouldn’t commit a crime. I’m sure everyone is super sorry that prison is preventing her from doing whatever she wants, but that’s how it goes.

Lets get down to the message that this would potentially send.

This woman is in jail because she obviously doesn’t respect the law, and we intend to change that perception by rewriting the laws because they inconvenience her? Is it just me or is that fucking retarded?

YOU BROKE THE LAW, DEAL WITH IT. I realize you’ve grown up thinking that “laws” and “rules” don’t apply to you, but that’s not how the world works. Your actions have consequences, and in Missouri that means no abortions. You’re in prison to pay a debt to society and the first item of business is to throw the cost of abortion on the tab? You’re in jail to be reformed, so why on earth would I want to pay for you to commit a killing while you’re there? There a plenty of good people out there in this world– you know contributing to society rather than taking from it– and the government doesn’t pay to drive them around. However, you THE CRIMINAL, think tax-payer money should be used to cart you from clinic to clinic? Despite the fact that the law specifically prohibits that?

I don’t think so.

Great work, ACLU, you really picked a winner this time.

For more go here: RyanClarkHoliday.com

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About ChaunceyBillups

  • http://www.crankyliberal.com The Cranky Liberal

    So whose going to pay for the kid? Where is it going to be raised? Are you willing to take it in? Just wondering since your so concerned about the cost of gas to drive to the clinic and all.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    I have no problem with my tax money going to help the child.

    Thats part of why we pay taxes, to help the less fortunate. I don’t pay taxes though, to fund abortions.

  • http://www.fifthdentist.blogspot.com The Fifth Dentist

    [edited] We wouldn’t have had to read this shit.

  • Bob Brady

    God Bless Clarence Thomas for stopping the killing of an unborn child in MO. His actions send a message (though not covered in my local paper) that unborn life is valuable and laws should be followed.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    Clever.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    Abortions: $500
    Raising a child: Much, much more than that.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    So?

    It would also be cheaper if we gave every criminal the death penalty.

    Or if we just nuked countries instead of going to war.

    On some moral issues, frugality is not a virtue.

  • elliot

    You are so stupid about jail. Think it’s all flower petals. The criminal was likely pregnant from guards. No woman wants a rape baby. If she didn’t kill the rapist, she can at least kill his fetus. Rape babies ain’t worth nothing.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    I think if faced with the dilemma of having to pay for your own abortion, compared to the cost of raising a child, you’d be able to find $500 in a couple months.

    Or, having the baby and putting it up for adoption would cost you nothing.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    [edited]

    Actually, Fifth Dentist, I think she is offering to pay for the procedure. The prison is refusing to pay for her transportation to the hospital.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    read the story elliot. she was pregnant before prison

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    I don’t know what word in Fifth Dentist’s comment #3(which I quoted) was considered offensive. To paraphrase, the deleted portion said: too bad she couldn’t pay for this herself

    She is paying for it herself.
    To quote the news story ryan links to:
    The woman, whose name was not disclosed in court papers, has said she will borrow money for the abortion from friends and family but cannot afford to pay for transportation.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    having the baby and putting it up for adoption would cost you nothing.

    Prenatal care costs money. Driving her to the hospital to give birth will cost money. Caring for the child until it can be placed would cost money.

  • http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/10/15/21238/320 Jeff

    If you’re that worried about this woman’s fetus, why don’t you contact the prison, ask Mom and Dad to lend you the family minivan, and go set-up a meeting with this horrible woman to arrange an adoption after the state forces her to carry it to term?

    Since we’re on the topic of life and death, I wonder how offended you are by a war based on lies, oil, and religious bigotry being run by a chickenhawk who went AWOL and his VP who knocked-up his wife to avoid service?

    How outraged are you about your tax dollars being used to kill-off 10,000+ innocent Iraqi women and children then? I hear some of those Arab kids were actually outside of the womb when they died.

    Then again, they were Arabs.

    Are you as vocal about the plight of the under-funded VA and the 45,000 maimed Iraq veterans? How about those 2,000 dead ones and their families? They were fetuses once, too, you know. Just ask Pat Tilman’s mother.

    Big questions for a self-proclaimed genius who just graduated high school to answer, I know, but you graduated with honors just last year, so I am sure you’re up for the challenge.

    One last bit of advice from someone who has actually lived in the world that exists beyond high school, Ann Coulter, and sitcoms (yes, I read your bio): if you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one.

  • nate jr.

    you’re right! the iraq war is a forced abortion to hundreds of pregnant women who are shot by american soldiers and un-smart bombs.
    nobody’s freaking out about fetuses’ rights during war.

  • imelda

    well, I don’t that many 18-year-olds who actually pay taxes – so what do you care?

    And, of course, the more important point is: should people like this prison inmate be encouraged to propagate at all? Wouldn’t this particular abortion be a positive thing for the gene pool?

  • http://http female

    errrm if you were pregnant and decided that you didnt want the baby… id have an abortion as if you have the baby and put it for adoption, you’d always be thinking i wonder what happend to my baby, where it is and what its doing and you’d be guilty and alwaays wondering.

  • Carl Rove

    This is not a choice between abortion and birth. This is a choice between a safe, regulated abortion in a hospital and an unsafe, coathanger abortion in a prison bathroom. Abortions happen, so regulate it.

  • Luke

    If you didn’t pay for the abortion, you’d be paying welfare for her kid that’ll become a future criminal, I’d rather nip this problem in the bud, abort future criminals, it’ll cost less in the long run.

  • Luke

    Aborting babies of criminal mothers is simply a good investment.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    This has been resolved. The supreme court lifted the temporary stay. The appellate court’s ruling stands, and the woman should now be able to get an abortion. Link Here

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    Sorry, apparently the lower court that issued the order was a Federal District Court, not a federal Appellate Court.

  • Nancy

    I don’t understand the point of view that insists there be no abortions, then rails at the masses in poverty & bitches about having to pay welfare, etc. to feed their bastard spawn. This bastard spawn is the selfsame fetus pro-lifers were all mooney-eyed over before it was born; once it’s born, it can beg, starve, die in the streets, or take up a life of crime for all they care. Sick hypocrisy. All those who insist every life is “sacred” should be racing to adopt every unwanted non-aborted baby, in that case; but I never see or hear of them doing it, which simply exposes their TRUE agenda: power: forcing their religous or sexual ideologies on everyone else.

  • Cunning linguist

    OF course you don’t understand nancy because [edited] liberal who doesn’t believe in personal responsibility. If I am pro life that doesn’t make me responsible for every baby that’s ever born. It just means I believe a baby has the right to be born.

    As for welfare we bitch about it because it is a useless system. It creates dependence not independence. I have no problem with my tax dollars going to help a child but I do have a problem with it going to help a lazy adult who doesn’t work.

  • Nancy

    So do I. And I resent even more having to pay for other people’s spawn. Therefore I favor abortion on demand. I’d rather kill it while it’s a blob than spend hundreds of thousands of hard-earned tax monies feeding it, trying to educate it (without success), only to have it grow up & breed useless pieces of shit just like itself in turn.

  • http://blogcritics.org/mt/mt-comments.php?mode=url&cid=256137 Jeff

    [edited]

  • Nancy

    I presume they did, but who can tell at this late date. My mother once told me she hadn’t wanted to have me, but abortion wasn’t an option at that time. I still frequently feel she should have had the chance. It might have been a good thing for both of us. Trust me, quality of life DOES matter – a lot.

  • volt

    >THE LAW FORBIDS SPENDING PUBLIC FUNDS ON AN ABORTION. End of story.<

    I did not realize that criminals lose all of their constitutional rights upon conviction. Why not just shoot all prisoners.

    Oh boy, not the dreaded ACLU. So cliche. Actually, this entire post is comical in that way.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Geez, if it’s that big a deal I’ll be happy to refund you the 9/1000 of a penny that amounts to your share of the $500. That way you WON’T be paying for the abortion.

  • Nancy

    Where’s Nalle? I don’t think they do lose all constitutional rights, but I’m probably wrong. Dave Nalle would know.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I don’t know everything there is to know about constitutional law, Nancy. But I do know that once you’re convicted of a crime pretty much all bets are off. The key thing is that while everyone is entitled to basic rights, part of that right is the right to give it up or forfeit it by your actions.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    And BTW, no one has a RIGHT to have an abortion. You have a right to have access to an abortion if you or someone else is willing to pay for it.

    Dave

  • D

    Cunning Linguist, about your comments…….OF course you don’t understand nancy because [edited] liberal who doesn’t believe in personal responsibility. If I am pro life that doesn’t make me responsible for every baby that’s ever born. It just means I believe a baby has the right to be born.

    As for welfare we bitch about it because it is a useless system. It creates dependence not independence. I have no problem with my tax dollars going to help a child but I do have a problem with it going to help a lazy adult who doesn’t work.

    Except for your comment about nancy being [edited] liberal, I agree with your positions completely.

    Nancy is just plain sad. You’ve gotta be one sad, deeply-pained soul to actually believe you probably should have been aborted. Her comments don’t sound like she has taken control of her life and its’ opportunities to make it satisfying and worthwhile. Very sad indeed! It’s no wonder she has the position she does about this subject!
    [edited]
    Life isn’t easy for anybody, even rich folks gotta work like heck to keep what they’ve got if they want to continue in the quality of life they have. Work can be a wonderful gift and stimulus – not a burden or punishment. Thank God I get to choose how I go about providing for a quality life for myself. That’s up to me and each individual (who’s healthy and un-incarcerated) not parents or the government. Given the government’s response to the Katrina survivors, their behavior sent a clear message to me and many others…if you didn’t know already, we’re all on our own.

    nancy: will pray for you

  • Nancy

    Ref: comment #32, as a virulent pro-choicer: agreed 100%. Those who don’t support it shouldn’t be forced to pay for it. But those who do should be willing to help out, and all should have the choice.

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    Dave and Nancy,

    Prisoners do have constitutional rights, otherwise no one would sue for violation of the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment). The standard of scrutiny applied to policies that might violate the constitutional rights of prisoners, however, is lower than the one applied to laws that might violate the constitutional rights of non-prisoners.

    This is (a very little bit of) what the supreme Court has to say on the question of prisoners and constitutional rights:

    “The very object of imprisonment is confinement. Many of the liberties and privileges enjoyed by other citizens must be surrendered by the prisoner” Overton v. Bazzetta, 539 U.S. 126, 131 (2003).

    There is a four-part test to determine whether a prison policy violates the prisoners constitutional rights:
    “In Turner we held that four factors are relevant in deciding whether a prison regulation affecting a constitutional right that survives incarceration withstands constitutional challenge: whether the regulation has a “‘valid, rational connection'” to a legitimate governmental interest; whether alternative means are open to inmates to exercise the asserted right; what impact an accommodation of the right would have on guards and inmates and prison resources; and whether there are “ready alternatives” to the regulation. Overton v. Bazzetta, 539 U.S. 126, 132 (2003).

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    —————
    well, I don’t that many 18-year-olds who actually pay taxes – so what do you care?
    —————-

    I’ve paid payroll taxes since I was 15, as well as capital gains taxes from investments.

    Ever heard of sales tax? Anyone who has ever paid for anything in the state of Missouri is funding for this bullshit.

  • mike

    they should stick her up on ol’ sparky. two birds with one stone

  • mike

    they should stick her up on ol’ sparky. two birds with one stone

  • http://Druxxx Druxxx

    I want to know what would be more expensive for the state.

    Paying for transportation to a place where this prisoner can get an abortion, or pay for all of this women’s prenatal care.

    I have a feeling that the 20 bucks in gas and a days pay for two guards would be less then the cost of bringing in a special doctor every couple of weeks to make sure the fetus is doing fine.

  • td

    I don’t see the problem.

    Having an abortion is their right. Just like freedom of religious expression. Nowwhere does it say that government should pay for your religious expression, yet millions of my tax dollars are wasted on tax breaks to churches.

    Elected officials spend discretionary funds on all kinds of crap. Half of it you probably agree with and half you don’t. But you can’t pick and choose between the shit. You don’t like how they govern, vote them out. If you voted for the other guy and lost, tough shit. Welcome to democracy.

  • RogerMDillion

    Lucky for Ryan there’s no death penalty for spelling and grammar. I had to abort reading this post because there were too many errors in it.

  • shirpa’s nipples

    And I’m not paying for your colostomy!

  • beth

    all you pro-lifers are full of shit. do you know how many women would reject you knowing they had to have your baby? this isn’t about lazy women it’s about lazy men who wouldn’t wear condoms, wouldn’t get married, and then go bomb abortion clinics while their waiting for the price is right to come on.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    Beth- I wouldnt be with a woman who would abort my child. My girlfriend and I agree on this issue so there isn’t a problem.

    I KNOW KEEPING THE CHILD IS MORE EXPENSIVE. The whole point here, is that keeping that baby alive is worth every penny. I will not, however, condone to having my money spent on killing it.

  • http://jabbs.blogspot.com David R. Mark

    You said that it’s against the law to use public funds for an abortion. But the ACLU isn’t a public agency.

    So what law is being broken?

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    David— Do you know how to read? They are paying to transport the woman to the doctor, specifically to get a fetus aborted. That clearly breaks state law prohibiting the use of state funds to facilitate an abortion.

  • Bennett

    Not only does David know how to read, his writing is miles and miles above the nonsense and raving contained here.

    You are actually good for the Pro Choice faction. Your foaming at the mouth over trivial matters is humorous.

  • RogerMDillion

    How do expect people to read when you write sentences like your first complete one, “How about we follow listen to the people and follow their damn laws?”

    Or this misspelled run-on sentence:
    “It doesn’t matter how badly this late wants to be rid of her unborn child, it matters that the public decided they don’t want to be forced to pay for it.”

    Did you and AGrande go to the same school? With your poor writing skills you both should be pro-choice because it’s just going to be tougher to find work with the extra people vying for jobs.

  • Bill B

    lol rmd!

    :<>

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    You see Roger, this site is for arguing. Not trash talking.

    We throw arguments at you and all you do is critisize personally. It just shows that in real life you are an insecure lonely little person.

    P.S. don’t say that I don’t have punctuation skills, my typing mistakes are different from the writings of an uneducated person.

    You and Bennett just run your comments through your Microsoft Word spell checker before you post them. Us in the real world don’t have time for that.

  • Bennett

    Spelling and proofreading are very different things. This guy is so rabid to post that his sentences don’t make sense if taken literally. If there were ever a candidate for waiting a day and then rereading, it’s this guy.

    I admit that having two windows open and typing in my word processor, which immediately shows me my misspellings – and then shows me the correct spelling (so that I learn how to spell all of the words in my vocabulary) is a very difficult technical feat. It’s probably too much for you, AG.

    Then a ctrl-c (to copy my correctly spelled comment) and then a click to get to the BC window, and then ctrl-v (to paste my correctly spelled comment) is so fucking much work that it damn near wears me out.

    What? Three mouse clicks?

    Yeah, us dummies wasting so much time to have our comments reflect our thoughts via correct English.

    Carry on.

  • practical joe

    During WWII, the Nazis killed innocents for several reasons.

    One reason was the cost to keep people alive.

    I think I am hearing the same thing here.

    Have a nice day.

    Sieg Heil!

  • practical joe

    I forgot to mention, the Japanese also did it.

    Banzai!

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    sorry for the spelling errors. happy now?

  • RogerMDillion

    I would have replied sooner, but this lonely guy was watching the baseball/football games with some friends. I sweating because I took Indy -14 and after they spotted the rams 17, it didn’t look good.

    How am I supposed to know what the argument is when it is unreadable?

    “don’t say that I don’t have punctuation skills, my typing mistakes are different from the writings of an uneducated person.”

    Really? That run-on sentence begs to differ. I don’t use a spellchecker and occasionally make a mistake. They should be rare, like abortions, not one every comment.

    “This guy is so rabid to post that his sentences don’t make sense if taken literally. If there were ever a candidate for waiting a day and then rereading, it’s this guy.”

    Exactly. He’s the next Bambenek.

    “happy now?”

    No. Try another read through.

    I love the Google ads, by the way. So sweet to see the writings of a pro-lifer advertising the services of clinics. HA HA HA HA

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “I would have replied sooner, but this lonely guy was watching the baseball/football games with some friends. I sweating because I took Indy -14 and after they spotted the rams 17, it didn’t look good.”

    (laughing)

    This guy is bragging over the INTERNET!!!

    You think you big ’cause you watch sports games with freinds???

    Roger’s Reasoning:

    If I say that I have freinds over the Internet, how are they going to prove me wrong??? I sure got that Abortion Grande this time.

    You know Roger if you truly weren’t a lonely loser then you wouldn’t feel obligated to answer.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    (still laughing)

    “THIS LONELY GUY WAS WATCHING FOOTBALL WITH FREINDS.”

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    You know you liberals think of the unborn just like Hitler thought of the Jews, as lower life forms that don’t have any will or need to live.

    (STILL laughing)

    “LOOK AT ME!!! I WATCH FOOTBALL WITH FREINDS!!!”

  • Luke

    When will I be able to go to McDonalds and get a McFetus burger value meal? Soon hopefully

  • RogerMDillion

    How is my statement bragging?

    Hmm, it never occurred to me that anyone would be impressed by the fact that I hung out with some friends this evening and watched TV.

    I guess for someone like yourself, who has no friends, the idea that other people might enjoy your company is hard to comprehend.

    You should spend less time on the Internet and try making some friends at your next abortion rally, or you could join a group at school. Maybe even run for Class President.

    Vote for Anthony.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    Or you could just not mention your lame-ass weekend activities in the comment section of an abortion post? How about that?

    He’s laughing at you because your retardedly posted that you watched tv. EVEN THOUGH NOBODY CARES.

  • RogerMDillion

    It was this evening’s activities. How about you follow listen to what we wrote?

    And the way the Rams played certainly fits into an abortion thread.

    Vote for Anthony

  • http://Druxxx Druxxx

    AG

    Say someday you manage to find a wife, and at some point you manage to get her pregnant. At some point in the pregnancy the doctors discover a problem.

    You have to choose; your wife or the unborn baby. You don’t get both.

    Which one would it be?

    Just curious, and if you would, please explain.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    If I knew a woman who was impregnanated by a bigoted right wing extremist radical who wanted to terminate I would gladly provide the funds.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Now Silas, bigotry and political persuasions are not genetically inheritable. Don’t take it out on the baby.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>You know you liberals think of the unborn just like Hitler thought of the Jews, as lower life forms that don’t have any will or need to live.<<

    The difference here being that Hitler was demonstrably wrong, and we’re inconrovertibly right.

    When a fetus can stand up and recite the Talmud I’ll be the first to defend its right to live.

    Dave

  • practical joe

    Hitler thought that Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Slavs, Russian POW’s, the Retarded, and others who were not Aryans, were lower life forms that had no right to live.

    And Hitler had no qualms about abortion or euthanasia.

    So where does that leave Dave’s statement…

    “When a fetus can stand up and recite the Talmud I’ll be the first to defend its right to live.”

    Hitler killed many who could not stand up and recite the Talmud.

    So who else would Dave defend?

    Dave says, “bigotry and political persuasions are not genetically inheritable.”

    So where did Dave acquire his bigotry?

  • steve

    At this point, the child has been in the mother for a period of time in which the child is viable. Since the child could survive at this point; let the child live. (moral opinion)

    The child will be both a burden to the mother, the father, and the economy. no one seems to be willing to raise this child or claim responsibility for it; and odds are it will grow to be a loser just like his/her mother. Therefore, grant the mother her abortion whilst at the same time, have the low life neutered.

  • Nancy

    Actually I think everyone should be neutered at puberty, & only get to breed if they take some fairly stiff child-care/child development, etc. classes, pass, & prove they really are fit as well as dedicated to having & raising one. But then we’d be extinct as a species in one generation, probably.

  • steve

    So you like my idea of passive eugenics? Neutering everyone would be a bit extreme…we should just weed out the losers, thats all I ask. i.e. this pregnant convict.

  • practical joe

    “Actually I think everyone should… only get to breed if they… prove they really are fit…”

    Achtung!

    Sieg Heil!

  • Nancy

    Well, no. Everyone. I think I could make a good case that every child born deserves to be wanted, and to have the best education, care, etc. available. People in jail are not the only losers; I know some awfully rich assholes that shouldn’t be trusted with any creature, let alone a child. Having kids just because you can isn’t intelligent. Any critter can breed. To give all kids the best, those wanting them badly enough should at least be willing to learn how to take care of their basic needs, etc. You’d think a lot of this would be common sense, but as I pointed out recently, common sense isn’t – common, that is. Like that fool woman who put her kids in the trunk of her car this past summer by way of punishment. Or the one who handed her 9-year-old the car keys & told him to drive himself to school. Or the guy who have his 8-year-old a $100 bill to go get beer for him & his buddy who were busy watching football. These morons are too stupid to live, let alone to reproduce, yet they’re not in jail – or they weren’t until their idiocy caught up with them.

  • steve

    There are many losers in society. people should apply for a permit to have children…haha. This would hopefully remove some of the “critters.”

    question for practical joe…you dont happen to drive anything made by the ford motor corporation or volkswagen, do you? If you did, it would surely crack me up. Henry Ford supported eugenical studies and funded many of hitler’s programs. Hitler helped start Volkswagen.

    danke shoen.

  • beth

    sex for procreation only. that means no women in bars for the rest of eternity.
    the media has changed the meaning of sex. the propoganda about birth control has changed the motivation of sex.
    ending abortion is a really backhanded way of teaching the lesson that sex is about making babies. it is not fair to not teach your kids about sex and let the media teach your kids if you like someone that it is cool to engage in sex. make making like illegal not abortion. make it illegal for unmarried men to not wear condoms. condoms cost much less than a baby.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Say someday you manage to find a wife”

    The problem is I cannot marry the person I love because she is my cousin and you people that are full of hate won’t let US get married.

    And in a situation where the woman is in danger and only either her or the baby can live then her or the next of kin should have a right to choose.

    I personally would say to the doctor that you will save both of them. I cannot imagine purposely killing a healthy life.

    Abortions should only be for woman who are rape victims or the life is in danger.

  • RogerMDillion

    “When a fetus can stand up and recite the Talmud I’ll be the first to defend its right to live.”

    If you use that as the threshold, there are many people who will lose the right to live, myself included

    Beth, I don’t know who you have been dating but they must be doing something wrong because “it is cool to engage in sex.”

    Vote for Anthony

  • Bennett

    “Abortions should only be for woman who are rape victims or the life is in danger.”

    But, isn’t the zygote independent of the method of impregnation? Does your god differentiate between a fetus that is the result of IVF versus rape?

    How about couples who use a sperm donor?

    How can you allow a woman who has been raped, to abort the pregnancy, but then say “I cannot imagine purposely killing a healthy life.”

    Are the zygotes from a rape any less healthy than a pregnancy from a broken condom between lovers?

    Please explain.

  • Methusaleh

    Ahh abortion, the freedom to rid oneself of an 18 year burden at the cost of only one life.

    I wish we would apply the same rules to the handicapped. I know I wouldn’t want to have to take care of some tard. Best to kill him so i won’t be burdened.

    You see this as barbaric, generations ago saw abortion as the same. A little indoctrination and a little time and people will get used to any idea. There is no right and wrong. There is no god. Do what makes you happy, even if that means snuffing out the life of another.

    You only live once, don’t waste it.

  • Luke

    Methusaleh, why are you against aborting future criminals, I sure as hell don’t want some piece of shit breaking into my house, shooting me in the head, and then raping my wife and kids, when this problem could’ve been nipped in the bud, you know that the kid of a criminal is likely to be all fucked up psychologically, and probably become a criminal too, also, abort the handicapped before they’re born.

  • steve

    nip the bud! good idea Luke…lol. getting rid of handicapped people too?!? alright! As a society we are coming to agreement on eugenics finally. Weed out the losers!

  • Beth

    This is hilarious. all these men discussing how abortion needs to be governed. men decided what a “threat” is to the mother which validates abortion.

    You really have no say. even if it is your kid. it is not your body. God made it a female decision for a reason.

    There are other ways to prevent abortion.
    1. making unsafe sex illegal
    2. neutering men engaging in premarital sex–similar in permanency to pregancy
    3. forcing women to wear chastity belts until they meet their life partners

    Do any of the above sound reasonable to you? that’s why we have abortion
    –because this society hasn’t figured a way to end rape
    –rapists don’t use condoms
    –most men don’t use condoms during consensual sex either
    I wish it was different but these are the stats, folks.

    You can’t force a woman into the most vulnerable state for her body.
    we don’t even have a draft for men to join the army against their will in this country and more women die from childbirth complications than men at war! talk about controlling the opposite sex. blatant inequality.

    Maternal mortality is the leading cause of death among women worldwide.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “How about couples who use a sperm donor?”

    Why would a couple who paid for a sperm donor want to get an abortion???

    “How can you allow a woman who has been raped, to abort the pregnancy, but then say ‘I cannot imagine purposely killing a healthy life.'”

    When I said, “I cannot imagine purposely killing a healthy life” I was referring to my wife being impregnated by rape and then having to choose if we should keep it.

    “Are the zygotes from a rape any less healthy than a pregnancy from a broken condom between lovers?”

    I was not talking about health. You are twisting my words, please do not do that.

    One of my arguments against abortion is that I am Pro-Choice. I believe the women has a “choice” to get pregnant or not. Now if I say that rape victims can’t have abortions I would be going against my own argument. In a rape situation the woman has no choice to get pregnant or not.

    Now a baby created by a rape is still a healthy living soul which is why I would not let my wife, mother, sister, daughter or girlfreind get an abortion in a case of rape.

    And if a woman is in a situation where she could loose her life she should be able to choose between her baby or her.

    So don’t any of you ever call me Anti-Choice. I am Pro-Choice, the woman has a “choice” to get pregnant or not to get pregnant. And if she gets raped she should get a “choice” to keep the baby as long as it is done in the first couple weeks.

  • Bennett

    You never answered my question about the guts of the matter, instead you continue to spout the childish notion about you’re being “pro choice”.

    Please answer these questions:

    1) How is the zygote from a rape different from a zygote of a pregnancy that happens because a condom breaks?

    You wrote: “I would not let my wife, mother, sister, daughter or girlfreind get an abortion in a case of rape.”

    2) Who are you to decide that your mother, sister, or girlfriend could or could not have an abortion of a pregnancy resulting from rape?

    3) If your daughter was brutally raped and became pregnant, would you really *try* to force her to carry the fetus to term?

    4) You would force your family members to give birth to the child of a brutal rape?

    5) What kind of monster does that?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “How is the zygote from a rape different from a zygote of a pregnancy that happens because a condom breaks?”

    When a woman engages is sexual intercourse she knows that there is a risk of pregnancy and makes the “choice” to do it anyway. And when she is raped she made no “choice” to engage in sexual intercourse.

    “Who are you to decide that your mother, sister, or girlfriend could or could not have an abortion of a pregnancy resulting from rape?”

    Well I wouldn’t need to choose for my family, they wouldn’t kill it anyway.

    “If your daughter was brutally raped and became pregnant, would you really *try* to force her to carry the fetus to term?”

    After I hunt down and brutally kill the rapist I would hope my daughter would understand that there is a healthy life, a part of her inside of her inside of her that needs her. If she doesn’t understand they I know that I failed as a father.

    But if she is a minor then it is my choice. And you know what that choice would be.

    That goes for all my female family members.

    But Bennett this is none of your business. This is personally. I told you what my views on the law and that should be enough.

  • Bennett

    Hey, you brought your family members into the discussion with your Dictatorial Powers over your mother, sister, etc…

    Please, try to answer this question again:

    “How is the zygote from a rape different from a zygote of a pregnancy that happens because a condom breaks?”

    You answered “When a woman engages is sexual intercourse she knows that there is a risk of pregnancy and makes the “choice” to do it anyway. And when she is raped she made no “choice” to engage in sexual intercourse.”

    Which is stating the most obvious, uh, duh?

    But it doesn’t answer the question. Are the zygotes different?

    Not in YOUR family, but worldwide, all women, all countries. Should women have the choice to terminate the pregnancy from being raped?

    Why should a rape victim have a choice, but an accidental pregnancy victim not have a choice?

  • KYS

    Anthony, in comment 75 you say “Abortions should only be for woman who are rape victims or the life is in danger.”

    Ok, so let’s be really clear here, because you’re contradicting yourself a bit. Are you saying that there are some rare circumstances where you would support a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion?

  • Silas Kain

    This is hilarious. all these men discussing how abortion needs to be governed. men decided what a “threat” is to the mother which validates abortion.

    This is what I’ve said all along. Men have no right, morally or otherwise, to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her body. I can’t believe that reasonably intelligent men could ever believe otherwise. Respect for women includes respecting her right to choose. To force a woman to carry to term without exception is tantamount to indentured servitude. That itself is the epitome of immorality.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Should women have the choice to terminate the pregnancy from being raped?”

    YES, God dammit!!!! I said it already.

    “But it doesn’t answer the question. Are the zygotes different?”

    They are different in the way they were created but once the start developing after conception there is no difference. It is still murder in my eyes if you kill a healthy baby or fetus. But I don’t believe there should be a law that says a woman has to go through with the pregnancy after a rape, because she did not make any kind of decision whatsoever.

    Here is the way I see it:

    When it comes to pregnancy a woman should get ONE “choice” and one “choice” only. When she willingly “chooses” to engage in sexual intercourse then her one choice is gone. When she is raped she still has the choice and can use it to kill.

    “accidental pregnancy victim not have a choice?”

    There is no such thing as accidents.

  • Luke

    Alright Beth, you’ve convinced me, women should be allowed to abort as much as they like,

    “There are other ways to prevent abortion.
    1. making unsafe sex illegal”

    That’s a good idea, they should just give all men vasectamies after they’re born, end of problem, then if anyone wants kids, they have to take the sperm out their balls with a syringe.

  • Beth

    AG-
    I know you think some rape victims can be “allowed” to get abortions.
    There are so many flaws to your argument for your relatives. You give me no choice.
    Let’s say there’s a female rape victim. She is forced to carry the baby in an overturned Roe v. Wade world.

    1. she commits suicide. so really she can kill genes of the rape baby inside her without visiting an abortion clinic. suicide a noble option like the murder option in Afganistan where the family kills the woman who was raped. mercy killing.

    2. if she carries her baby to term. her liberties are violated. she cannot drink or smoke for 9 months. she grows resentful. she develops postpartum depression. increases suicide risk. she kills the baby or herself (after it is adopted).

    3. her right to control her body is forever ruined. some women retain pregancy fat their whole lives. she has a c-section scar. she has stretch marks. she has deflated breasts. these effects are permanent after the adoption. she looks at herself and is reminded of the effects of rape as permanent physically and emotionally.

    4. she contracts herpes or HIV from the rape. both make the child’s life a living hell. the pregnancy makes it harder for her to fight her own disease. can she abort yet?

    5. the rapist gets parental rights after birth. he gets visitation or full custody due to DNA tests. the woman basically was a surrogate mother for his children. you can’t kill the baby’s father (like you claimed you would – if all life is valuable your argument is shit anyway) – the child would resent you)

    6. most people after trauma avoid anything that reminds them of the crime. how is that possible with the baby inside your stomach. there’s the monetary cost she must also stomach. who pays for that? the rape baby foundation?
    if men are raped in jail, they can hardly admit it. now everyone knows this woman was a rape victim. no confidentiality there. people are asking “who’s the father?” every question reminds her of the rape. she develops emotional problems. a stressed out mother is at constant risk of miscarriage and harming the baby’s development.

    why don’t you think of any of the real consequences for mothers of rape children? i find it disgusting that our laws dictate a rape victim’s sentence to pregnancy lasts longer than her attacker.
    sure anothony. you would really quit your job for 9 months to have a rapist’s baby! i think you should be stuck with all your relatives’ rape babies. why don’t you start a rapist baby daycare at your house you sick s.o.b!
    according to you, RAPE is a search for surrogate mothers.

  • RogerMDillion

    “why don’t you think of any of the real consequences for mothers of rape children?”

    Because he’s a 17-year-old child with no real-life experinces.

    Vote for Anthony

  • Luke

    Beth, I’m pretty sure Anthony said the exact opposite of what you said he said.

  • http://sussfr.blogspot.com Matthew T. Sussman

    Men have no right, morally or otherwise, to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her body. — Silas.

    I will use this as a green light to masturbate as much as I want. Cuddle time my ass.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    ———————
    Men have no right, morally or otherwise, to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her body.
    ——————–

    Under the same logic we couldn’t have drug use laws.

  • Luke

    Matthew, you are wrong, because there are obvious limits, if men can’t dictate what a woman can and can’t do with her body, then she can willfully wait until she’s 8 and a half months pregnant, and then murder a fully developed human baby, simply because it’s in the unfortunate position, of being inside a sadistic fucked up bitches womb, realistically, men have a moral duty to see that shit like that doesn’t happen.
    Here’s an analogy for you, you’re a coinjoined twin, but the guy you’re stuck to doesn’t like you very much, unfortunately for you, he’s got a much greater share of the internal organs, so one day, he gets a butchers knife and hacks through the flesh which keeps the two of you joined together, he lives, you die, and in court he says “it’s my body, I can do whatever I want with it” and gets away with murder.

  • RogerMDillion

    “I will use this as a green light to masturbate as much as I want.”

    Right. As if you were waiting for a green light.

  • Winston Jen

    ryan: “Under the same logic we couldn’t have drug use laws.”

    And so we shouldn’t. Drugs that harm no one else should be legal. Smoking should only be permitted when you are in the privacy of your own home so that you do not poison other people.

  • steve

    women who dont want to get pregnant should bring their lazy asses to the gyno to get an IUD!! thats all there is to it!! then once they are ready to decide to have a child, they remove the IUD!! its 99% effective! so go pick up your little plastic T and fool your bodies into being pregnant!! thats one’s for you, beth.

  • td

    I think this debate needs some realism.

    It’s pointless to say things like, “If they don’t want to have children, don’t get pregnant”.

    People are going to have sex. Some will have unprotected sex, and some will be using protection that is 99.99999% effective and still get pregnant. Why, because of alcohol, or drugs, or some other perfectly legit, yet stupid, circumstance.

    You are not going to prevent all these people from getting pregnant.

    So you are left with the argument saying that: A moral society is a better society, abortion is morally wrong, and therefore making abortion illegal will lead to a better society.

    But would society be better? I don’t think so.

    We’d have 100x the single mothers, orphans, and we’d have babies being grown till full term and then killed after birth as happens in China.

    Abortion is an imperfect solution for an imperfect world. And it is up to the people to decide what this imperfect solution is.

    The point is that you can’t have it both ways. You can’t be pro life and just ignore the concequences that making abortion illegal would cause. If you want to say that if a woman get’s pregnant then it is up to her and the father to pay for the child then that is fine. But don’t pretend like this would not leave millions more single mothers below the proverty line.

    Disagree? Then you tell me what the consequences would be.

  • volt

    serious question for the pro life…

    since abortion was legal (per the Romans) at the time the bible was written why was there no direct mention of it in the bible?

    do you think that god found the subject so abhorrent that he could not bring himself to mention it? this does not seem plausible since he has no problem with mass murder, incest and cannibalism.

    was he just playing a fun game with his followers? was he hoping to make it ambiguous knowing that the outcome would cause more life to be killed? what?

    personally, i understand how the bible got some things wrong – like the earth being flat as it was not discovered at the time though you would think god knew this. and i understand how it failed to take a position on things that had yet to be invented like late night infomercials on tv. but i just cant come to grips with the failure to even mention abortion if it was so important an issue.

    any clarity on this would be appreciated.

    thanks

  • practical joe

    THOU SHALT NOT KILL!

  • td

    Thou shalt not kill……who?

    Society kills people everyday.

    Lack of funding for public health care kills people in the operating room.

    Lack of funding for education and welfare kills homeless people in the streets.

    Lack of funding for military equipment kills soldiers in the feild.

    Lack of funding for prisons results in higher inmate deaths.

    etc. etc. etc.

    Making abortion illegal means increased funding for orphanages, single parents, public welfare, and so on.

    You want to save the lives of fetuses that’s fine. But the money to care for these fetuses means less funding for other programs. Reducing funding to other programs means people die.

    So, who do you want to kill instead?

    I know one area of government that could be axed to help support the parents of unplanned pregnancies.

    Church benefits. If you take all the property tax breaks, the income tax excemptions, etc. etc. that allow churches to remain profitable then we could afford to make abortion illegal.

    Of course, most churches would have to declare bankruptcy. But hey, I thought church and state were supposed to be seperate anyways.

  • Nancy

    Good points, TD. Churches shouldn’t be getting tax breaks anyway; damn few of them are actually apolitical, & in any event, should not be supported by the public, directly or indirectly thru tax breaks.

  • Beth

    steve-

    You think I can convince a woman lazy enough to have sex with you to stop drinking and get an operation for an IUD!
    I’d neuter and spay you both at the local dog pound. Two for the price of one.

  • Silas Kain

    Why does the WOMAN have to be responsible for birth control? Does anyone know how an IUD really works? I hardly think that the long term effects of it are worth the risk. Want to control unwanted pregnancies? Science should come up with a laser or thermo-nuclear device. Shoot a guy in the balls and render him sterile for a year at a time. Let’s see how fast their belief systems would crumble! For all these men that talk about loving and respecting women so much, they sure do spend an awful lot of time dictating to them.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Men have no right, morally or otherwise, to dictate what a woman can and cannot do with her body.”

    So who will speak for the unborn??? The woman having the abortion???

    Volt:

    “since abortion was legal (per the Romans) at the time the bible was written why was there no direct mention of it in the bible?”

    1) I don’t know if abortions were legal back then, but they were rare. The Romans, who lacked a serious Religion, might have accepted abortion into their society but the Jews of Israel did not.

    2) Jesus came to save the Jews and since the Jews didn’t practice abortion why would he ever mention it???

    3) Maybe the Messiah did mention it, but his HUMAN disciples never caught it.

    4) Why are you even asking me this??? Didn’t I say I don’t base my views on Religion??? Did Practical Joe ever say he bases his views on Religion???

    5) If I did base my views on Religion wouldn’t I say NO abortion for rape victims???

    6) The Bible said “Thou Shalt not kill” and since Abortion ends a life it is therefore killing. So the Bible did go against it.

    ———

    Beth, go back to Venus.

    ———

    “Why does the WOMAN have to be responsible for birth control?”

    Because she is the one who gives birth.

  • volt

    thou shalt not kill does not cut it. because obviously the bible condones a lot of killing. if abortion were so important to god, one wonders why he did not explicitly say so. especially since it was legal at the time. how else was one to distinguish that this was one of the items that fall under the shalt not kill commandment.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Volt, you only answered one of my 6 arguments.

    And I would like to see proof that abortions were legal in Israel.

    And how come it made no mention in the Bible that abortion was O.K.???

    And even if God doesn’t care about abortions WHY SHOULD I GIVE A FLYING FUCK???

    Didn’t I say I don’t base my beliefs on Religion????

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Also, yes or no: In an abortion does a life die???

  • Winston Jen

    Anthony: “Why does the WOMAN have to be responsible for birth control?”

    Because she is the one who gives birth.

    But it is the MAN who gets her pregnant, right? That’s why men can be ordered to pay child support. They are both responsible for the women getting pregnant (barring cases of rape), but only the woman has the right to abort or not abort, as it is her health and life at stake.

  • volt

    Anthony

    First off I did not respond to any of your six b/c at the time I began writing my post they had yet to be posted. Believe it or not but you are not the only one using thou shalt not kill as evidence on this board. Further, my initial question was directed at all pro lifers not you. So toss your #4 out for starters. #3 is laughable funny. No? Well, what about this proposition than: Jesus was adamantly pro-choice but the disciples never heard it. It is just as plausible as your #3. I do not know your exact views on abortion, but I hardly think anyone would take the time to frequent abortion related message boards from the pro life side unless they were influenced by religion. As I state above, thou shalt not kill is not by itself enough to support abortion since there are many examples where the bible condones and even encourages killing. And if one were base their entire belief on #2, well than I am envious because that would take an extraordinary amount of faith. We are talking about god here, right? Shouldn�t he have thought that this may be a problem if he is not clear about this?

    I’m sure someone can offer up something a bit more convincing that Anthony. There has got to be some good answers to the question. Maybe, despite my laziness, i will just google it.

  • KYS

    Comment 106:

    ———————-

    “Why does the WOMAN have to be responsible for birth control?”

    Because she is the one who gives birth.

    ———————————

    Then she is the ONLY one responsible, and the ONLY one allowed to make the choice. Until and unless you give 50% reponsibility to the man, you have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

  • practical joe

    “Society kills people everyday”

    Someone just figured out that people die every day.

    In the twisted minds of some, that means abortions can be condoned.

    Very twisted…

  • practical joe

    “In an abortion does a life die???”

    Yes.

    Next question.

  • Winston Jen

    Practical Joe: ““Society kills people everyday”

    Someone just figured out that people die every day.

    In the twisted minds of some, that means abortions can be condoned.

    Very twisted…”

    You missed the point of the post you responded to.

    Politicians and corporations make decisions to kill people that would otherwise have survived. Health insurance companies are notorious for things like this. You claim to support life, yet do you care if poor people die because they lack access to health care?

  • KYS

    Don’t you know, Winston? The only life that matters is potential life, especially if it’s a potential right-wing christian life.

  • Winston Jen

    Heh, that sounds about right. The Republicans probably don’t care that they have a 2% approval rating among African Americans because they’ll all be wiped out via lousy healthcare anyway.

  • practical joe

    “if abortion were so important to god, one wonders why he did not explicitly say so.”

    One must also wonder why god didn’t explicitly say that each of the other methods of killing that were in use at the time were important.

    Most likely, god gave us credit for being able to figure out simple issues without coaching us on each one.

    Pretty dumb question.

  • practical joe

    “do you care if poor people die because they lack access to health care?”

    Another dumb question.

    The answer is yes.

    Does that mean I should or should not care about killing an unborn child?

  • KYS

    Most likely, if god does exist, he doesn’t give a crap one way or the other.

  • practical joe

    “if god does exist, he doesn’t give a crap one way or the other”

    Now we have a direct line into the mind of god…

    Tell us more about the thoughts of god…

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  • KYS

    The words “most likely” should clue you in to the fact that the comment was an opinion. Don’t put words in my mouth, it makes you look silly.

  • Winston Jen

    Well, let’s look at science and nature and use that to help us determine what ‘god’ thinks of abortion.

    More than 50% of conceptions do not implant, so the ‘baby’ that you care about so much doesn’t get much of a chance to develop. Why don’t you ask your god to stop murdering foetuses before they implant in a woman?

  • KYS

    Yes, Winston. What’s more…

    Tell me why my sister, who wanted nothing more to love and raise children of her own (with her loving husband), had so many miscarriages. Seems to me that a god who cared about such things would remove the possibility for unwilling women to concieve, and give that ability to those desperate to do so.

    Anthony? Joe? Any answers here?

    If reproduction is a god-given process, what we have here is a god who forces conception on the unwilling and denies conception to others.

    The other possibility is that god doesn’t care.

  • practical joe

    “More than 50% of conceptions do not implant, so the ‘baby’ that you care about so much doesn’t get much of a chance to develop. Why don’t you ask your god to stop murdering fetuses before they implant in a woman? “

    If 50% is correct, there must be a lot of miscarriages that are not reported.

    Whatever the percent that do not implant, there are no guarantees that any one of will develop and live, or continue to live after development — but that does not give us license to kill because natural causes also do the same.

    Death by natural causes is not killing.

    Another dumb question.

  • practical joe

    “Tell me why my sister, who wanted nothing more to love and raise children of her own (with her loving husband), had so many miscarriages.”

    I will know the answer when we know why all of us who want good health, intelligence, good looks, and a long wish list for other things, do not get our wishes granted.

    We don’t know.

    That’s why fairy tales were invented to have happy endings.

    Another dumb question.

  • KYS

    Joe,
    You are correct. Most miscarriages are not reported. Women are told that miscarries are normal to a great extent. Ask any OBGYN.

  • KYS

    Not a dumb question, Joe. If conception was THAT important to god, why waste it?

    If god can cause an abortion, why can’t we?

  • practical joe

    “Most miscarriages are not reported.:

    So how do you know the percent?

    Oh, I forgot, most likely, god told you.

  • practical joe

    “If god can cause an abortion, why can’t we?”

    This question deserves the Grand Prize for Dumb Questions.

    Congratulations!

  • Methusaleh

    Who cares if a baby dies? Even the great butchers, Hilter ,Stalin, etc could not increase the amount of death, only a woman by creating new life can.

    Everything that is alive will die once, and only once. No amount brutality or peace will change that fact.

    Is it greater to die in a drug induced craze at 27, like a warrior on an adrenalin high in Iraq, or to live until your 90 in agony watching yourself fall apart, shitting in your diaper, being a general burden on those in your family who aren’t dead yet?

    I feel that aborted fetus are lucky, soldiers in Iraq are lucky, and car wreck vistims are lucky. They all get to miss the slow cancerous, tube and ventilator filled agony which death has become in modern society.

    There is no more glory of victory or agony of defeat, no feast nor famine, only Gilligan’s Island reruns and political bickering. So please, do the unborn a favor and save them from the 90 year mind numbingly boring ride life has become.

  • Winston Jen

    I get it, pj! If we claim that god wants us to have an abortion, we are allowed to, and it is not a sin! Praise!

  • KYS

    Foolish reply.

    Acne isn’t reported by doctors, because it is a common phenomenon.

    So is miscarriage.

    Why do you insist that I get my info from god? I read medical journals and scientific media.

  • luke

    he doesn’t force conception on the unwilling anymore than he forces you to get up in the morning, as far as denying conception to others, every one of those babies was going to be the next hitler, so god did the right thing, either that, or shit happens, god doesn’t make people infertile anymore than he makes children born in chernbyl have three arms.

  • KYS

    Ok, so if god has the power and inclination to prevent the next Hitler, why not prevent the first one???

    Come on…

  • Winston Jen

    Well then, Luke, your god has fucked up more than his fair share by NOT aborting Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong or George Bush.

  • practical joe

    “If god can cause an abortion, why can’t we?”

    If this is the same god who causes tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes, and a thousand other calamities, does that mean that we can do the same?

    That could give new justification for the use of nuclear weapons.

  • Luke

    I’m going to assume you knew I was joking, but I’ll go ahead and answer your question anyway, god didn’t abort the first hitler, because every now and then he gets perverse excitement from seeing his creations slaughter each other, and he was pissed off at the jews for killing his son.

  • Winston Jen

    Either that, or god is pure evil, or (more likely) god doesn’t exist and nature is amoral.

  • KYS

    I didn’t know you were joking. =)

    But I agree that god is perverse.

  • practical joe

    If god doesn’t exist, nothing is immoral.

  • KYS

    Nature is neither moral nor amoral. Oops! I’m lapsing into Darwinism…

  • Winston Jen

    If practical joe exists, he is insane.

    Do you honestly think that a god is needed to develop a moral system? And isn’t any system decided upon by a god through use of fiat arbitrary and subjective?

  • http://Joe1948@aol.com practical joe

    Amoral:

    Not admitting of moral distinctions or judgments; neither moral nor immoral.

  • Luke

    Oh c’mon, I’m no more certain of gods existance than the next guy, but why must everything amount to “I don’t like it, so therefore god doesn’t exist” it’s just not a fun conversation when to try to kill it off like that.

  • practical joe

    Most animals eat each other.

    Why don’t we?

    Is it immoral, moral or amoral to be a cannibal?

  • KYS

    Did you have a point, Joe? Or are you just quoting dictionary.com?

  • practical joe

    I had a point.

    Did you miss it?

    It was whether cannibalism is moral, immoral or amoral?

  • KYS

    Well, under what circumstances are you considering cannibalism? Let’s work through your problem one step at a time…

  • practical joe

    Some people have a hard time dealing with hypothetical questions.

    BTW, I am not a female so I am not considering an abortion.

    Are you?

  • KYS

    Some people have a hard time dealing with actual questions.

    BTW abortion is not a FEMALE question. It takes two people to concieve, so why is this a women’s issue?

    Please explain.

  • KYS

    To clarify, my response is in direct response to the BIRTH CONTROL issue. Why is it only a woman’s responsibility to PREVENT a pregnancy, but they are the only ones who get the grief for abortion? Don’t men have a moral obligation? We (men and women) need to support a woman’s right to choose from the moment of conception.

  • practical joe

    “We (men and women) need to support a woman’s right to choose …”

    Choose what?

    Why does a euphemism have to be used”

  • KYS

    Joe, I’m not interested in arguing semantics with you. Answer the questions or bail out.. your “choice”, forgive the euphemism..

  • practical joe

    If a woman is arrested for being a prostitute, can she say she has the right to “choose”?

  • KYS

    Joe, answer the question.

  • practical joe

    BTW, I didn’t know a father had any CHOICE in whether his unborn child will be killed…

  • practical joe

    KYS — answer the question…

    If a woman is arrested for being a prostitute, can she say she has the right to “choose”?

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    “We (men and women) need to support a woman’s right to choose …”

    Whether or not to go she will go through 40 weeks of pregnancy and then risk her health and life in childbirth.

    Why does a euphemism have to be used?”
    Because it’s shorter.

  • KYS

    To choose what, to be a prostitute? Yup. That’s her choice.

    Does her customer have the right to choose to have sex with her?

    Please answer that question.

  • practical joe

    Shorter?

    Choice.

    Six letters.

    Abort.

    Five letters.

    Some people can’t count.

  • KYS

    Joe, if you have a point, please let us in…

  • Luke

    The reason why it’s the womans responsibility to prevent pregnancy, is because they are the ones that get pregnant, men just do what they do, fuck everything in sight, it’s like if you walked in a dangerous neighbourhood and get bashed over the head with a bat and the dudes took your shoes, the thugs were doing what thugs do, bash people and take their stuff, it’s up to you to not walk in dangerous neighbourhoods where thugs are likely to bash you, because you’re the one who actually cares if you get bashed or not, it’s the same with women, they’re the ones with the most at steak, i’m not saying it isn’t mens fault for wanting to fuck all the time, and i’m not saying that it isn’t thugs fault for bashing people, women just have to understand, that’s what we do, it’s up to you to prevent us from fucking you, and at the very least, if you don’t stop us from fucking you, stop us from fucking you unprotected, you’re the one that cares the most whether you get pregnant or not, so then why do they get grief for abortion when it’s the men who blindly fuck and get women pregnant all the time? I dunno, because they’re killing a baby :/ it wasn’t the man that made you kill it, we men are just doing what we do, fucking all the time, and then denying responsibility, and afterwards, be the god damn hypocrites that we are by harrasing women for killing the baby, when we don’t go out of our way to wear a condom, so I guess you’re right, dudes should shut the hell up, let he who is without a girl who had an abortion because he had sex with her without a condom cast the first stone.

  • practical joe

    To choose what, to be a prostitute? Yup. That’s her choice.”

    Then why is she arrested?

    Abortion is the only “choice” that involves the termination of an innocent life.

  • KYS

    Nice, Luke,

    I think you have the anti-choice population pegged.

    Regarding the original post, since this woman is able to pay for her own abortion, and since the state is obliged to provide for reasonable medical care, she should be given transportation to the clinic and recieve the care she chooses.

  • practical joe

    Right.

    The reason why it’s the womans responsibility to prevent pregnancy, is because they are the ones that get pregnant.

  • Luke

    If you look at it the other way, if men really care so much about all these dead babies, then it’s our fault for caring more about fucking without a condom then we do about the baby they’re going to kill, it’s pure mathmatics, statistically, there’re certain odds how likely a woman is to kill the baby, with that in mind, anyone who is anti choice and fucks without a condom is playing the odds, “hey there’s a 50% chance that she’ll get pregnant, and there’s a 50% chance she’ll kill it, so there’s a 25% chance of a dead baby in this equation, fuck it, the difference in the amount of pleasure I get by fucking without a condom makes the posibility of a dead baby worth the risk”

  • practical joe

    Let’s not overlook the real math.

    There are over 100,000,000 million women in the country.

    Each year there are about 1.4 million fetuses aborted.

    That means that most women do not abort.

    It’s not just men who are against abortion.

  • KYS

    Great synopsis, Luke.

    If it’s a woman’s responsibility then it’s a woman’s choice. Problem solved.
    Women can choose to abort.

    If men want a voice, then men get 1/2 the responsibility of the pregnancy.

  • KYS

    Joe, please site a source for your statistics.

  • practical joe

    “If men want a voice, then men get 1/2 the responsibility of the pregnancy.”

    Last I knew, men do have half.

  • T A Dodger

    The reason why it’s the womans responsibility to prevent pregnancy, is because they are the ones that get pregnant.

    Which is why a woman should never have to ask a man for permission to get an abortion.

    As for “right to abort” being shorter than “right to choose:” I think “right to abort” is incomplete.

    Don’t get me wrong, I believe a woman has a right to abort, it’s just that when I say she has the right to choose, I’m talking about more than the right to abort.

    The relavent right (when I say “right to choose” or “pro-choce”) is the right to “choose whether or not to undergo pregnancy” (and that’s a little long!). The reason that “right to abort” is incomplete, is that it excludes all the other methods of choosing not to be pregnant.

    The right to choose to say NO to sex.
    The right to choose to use birth control.
    The right to sterilization.
    The right to abort.

    I hope that was more clear.

  • KYS

    Nope, they sure don’t. The reason is that there is no question who the ‘mother’ is of a child, but there is all too often the question of who the ‘father’ of a child is.

    Also, the financial burden is always assumed by the mother, even when a father runs out. Only a DNA test can force an unwilling dad to assume his responsibility.

    Further, the moral burden of childbirth is forced upon the mother by society, when there is little-to-no blame placed on the father of these fetuses.

    How is this fair?

  • http://www.blogcritics.com T A Dodger

    KYS,
    Even more relevant is the fact that the man shares NO PART of the pregnancy. Pregnancy isn’t this abstract 9 month period that produces a child. It is a real physical process that puts a strain on the woman’s body and changes it forever (and no, I don’t mean it makes her fat). Not only that, but childbirth can be an excruciatingly painful hours long process and it always carries a certain risk of death or injury for the pregnant woman.

    If you oppose the right to choose, you support, at least in some circumstances, FORCING women to undergo this process.

  • Luke

    There are over 100,000,000 million women in the country.

    Each year there are about 1.4 million fetuses aborted.

    That means that most women do not abort.

    It’s not just men who are against abortion.

    Yeah, that’s because all 100,000,000 of them got pregnant, and only 1.4 000,000 aborted, so because girls under the age of 15 and women over the age of 50 didn’t abort a prenancy that year, they must also be against abortion too right? and everyone who is pro choice has to have at least one abortion a year, just to keep the number of abortions in the millions, and that way, statistically they can prove that lots of people LOVE abortion.

  • practical joe

    There are about 100,000,000 million women in the country over the age of puberty and under the age when they stop screwing.

    Multiply that by 365 nights.

    That gives about 365,000,000,000 likely sexual encounters.

    That’s not counting the men who go home for a hot lunch.

    That’s the real math.

  • RogerMDillion

    So what if people have abortions? All the pro-lifers never say what the consequences are because there aren’t any. The human race won’t die out. Let go of your ego that tells you that you are the most important species on the planet. It also drives your need for a god. Once we have taken care of the people that are already here, then get back to me about those that aren’t.

  • Luke

    in response to that, i’ll say the same thing i said last time
    Yeah, that’s because all 100,000,000 of them got pregnant, and only 1.4 000,000 aborted, and everyone who is pro choice has to have at least one abortion a year, just to keep the number of abortions in the millions, and that way, statistically they can prove that lots of people LOVE abortion, they salivate over the idea of getting an abortion, can’t get enough of that abortiony goodness. Yep, anyone who is pro choice chooses to deliberately get pregnant so they can choose to get an abortion absolutely not one single pro choice person ever used contraception, because they all have their baby killing reputation to uphold.

    Obviously, if there were 1.4 million abortions, there would undoubtedly be millions more pro-choice women who didn’t have abortions that year, regardless of whether they actually got pregnant or not.

    Having said that, horray for dead babies!

  • Luke

    Y’know what, I just gotta say I’m starting to like Anthony’s world view, where it’s likely that 100,000,000 sexual encounters will happen everyday, the whole world is one big fuck fest.

  • RogerMDillion

    Luke, get off the pipe or share.

  • Beth

    Men do have power to prevent abortions. It’s called abstinence. For the sinners, it’s called condoms. That’s all the say you have.

    Prohibiting abortion stems from male jealousy for female authority. A five second relationship is no basis for a baby. If men were the primary caretakers stuck with babies, I guarantee abortions would decrease and condom use would increase.

    Jesus wasn’t born during a rape or one-night stand.

    All you pro-lifers would abort your kid in a second if scientists were able to identify the “gay gene”.

  • td

    Non of the pro-lifers have answered my question.

    If abortion was illegal, how would you pay for the tens of thousands of new single mothers and orphans that this would create?

    As I already pointed out, paying for this means taking money from somewhere else, and this probably means that someone dies. So who do you want to kill instead?

    I have no problem with the ideals of Pro-Life. But for once I would like to hear one of them say:

    “The concequences of a pro-life law will be……”

    “We will pay for these concequences using money from…..”

    Most Pro-lifers seem to live in a fantasy land where making abortion illegal just means middle-class families will have a few more kids and they will all be easily supported.

    But we all know this is not the case. Many, not all, but many of the women who have abortions do so because they cannot provide the child with a stable environment because they are broke, homeless, on drugs, on welfare, too young, etc. etc.

    Right now when one of the above does have a child it often ends up in an orphanage. If abortion was illegal the number of orphans would skyrocket. All of which would become wards of the state, since there are already 10 times the number of orphans to parents looking to adopt.

    So what is the plan Pro-lifers?

    You say “Thou shalt not kill”

    Well I say “Everyone shalt have free health care and a $15/hour minimum wage”

    Unfortunately saying it doesn’t make it feasable.

  • practical joe

    So what is the plan Pro-lifers?

    Stop killing the innocent.

    Killing doesn’t solve other societal problems.

  • td

    Okay, let me rephrase it for you.

    People die everyday because we do not have enough money to pay for the goods or services needed to save them.

    Making abortion illegal is going to cost A LOT of money.

    Where does this money come from?

  • td

    The funny thing about this debate is that usually it is the right trying to explain to the left that we do not have enough money to pay for liberal ideolism when it comes to Health Care, Social Services, the Environment, etc. etc.

    Everytime the left brings up one of these topics the right says…

    “Well, who is going to pay for it?”

    And the left responds…

    “It’s not about the money, it’s about doing what’s right”

    So tell me. How does the other shoe fit?

  • NIH

    Do Republicans use condoms? Or are all your offspring in orphanages?

  • http://myfavoriteanathenaeum.blogspot.com/ Voracious Reader

    I couldn’t stomach reading through all of the comments. On the question of what rights are forfeited by prisoners, I apologize if someone has already answered this, felons forfeit some federal rights and, in some instances, some state’s rights as well.

    Felons cannot vote, serve as a juror, or possess a gun. You lose the right to claim/receive certain federal benefits (public housing, aid, financial aid etc.). In many states, they cannot run for public office of trust or profit. Some can lose parental rights.

    Some of those rights can be restored.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Td, the budget is more important than you think and the left elitest know that. They just think that they can squeeze some more votes from stupid people by bringing this stuff up when Republicans are in office and by never even mentioning it when they are in office.

  • Beth

    the budget to fund republican orphans is ludicrous since republicans are anti-social welfare programs and most are rich. left groups have picked up the slack as usual. if contraception and abortions weren’t avaiable in this hump-a-horse modern world we’d have the same overpopulation problem as CHINA.
    it is important not to reach that level of overpopulation. in china babies are killed not embryos.

    foremost consensual sex that results in abortion needs to be reduced. the abstinence programs are not doing their jobs. increasing rates of teenage sex prove this.
    condoms are the most important way to prevent abortions. forms of female contraceptives lead to increases in cancer. Cancer-linked forms of contraception include IUDs, the pill, the patch, the shot, and cervical cups. that’s a lot to ask of a sexual partner. condoms are the only option to prevent abortions and STDs.
    the problem with modern society is the act of sex is no longer psychologically connected to making love or making babies. the behavior that leads to the abortion needs to be scrutinized.

  • nugget

    beth what the hell are you talking about???

    overpopulation???/ ahhaahaha

    I watched Cribs today. I saw a single male show is 50,000 square foot “crib” today. You complain about not enough room for orphans. Give me a friggin’ break. If you’re worried about that, get mad at rich morons, republican and democrat alike. Don’t talk about overpopulation like it’s an issue. geez.

  • steve

    A great bumper sticker:

    Democrats. Tough on fetuses, easy on terrorists

  • practical joe

    td:

    During WWII Americans died everyday because The Nazis and Japanese said they could not pay for the food and medicine needed to save them.

    Are you a neo-Nazi or a neo-Samurai?

  • Winston Jen

    I’m neither, but the pro-lifers seem to be, as they don’t seem to care about babies once they’re born.

  • Name:

    It seems that now womens’ bodies extend over other human organisms and now straight into my wallet, great, friggin’ great. I heard we are a fattening country but this is ridiculous.

    Its cheaper to murder babies, but hey, its other peoples’ money right? Go to town…

  • practical joe

    Winston Jen says:

    “.. the pro-lifers…don’t seem to care about babies once they’re born.’

    Interesting comment.

    Most pro-lifers are husbands and wives who have children and raise them with proper care after they are born.

    How did you come to your delusion?

    Oh, I know.

    As a liberal, you supported unmarried welfare recipients who found out they could depend on government checks and the more kids they had, the more the government paid them.

    That is, before liberals had it drummed into their heads that they made a big mistake and by the mid-1990’s even Clinton agreed with welfare reform.

    Now liberals want to abort the unborn to correct for their prior mistake.

    It generally takes liberals a couple of decades to see and admit their mistakes, and then they start making other mistakes.

    I would agree to abortion only it could be ascertained that those aborted would grow up to be in favor of aborting others.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    more from me on blogcritics
    Someone Killed The Burger King

  • steve

    instead of simply using a doctor’s wet/dry vac to suck out the unborn child…they should use a more vile method to abort babies.

    let the woman stay awake during the operation. take a nice pair of clamps around the babies head and tear it out.

    after that, take a foul shot with the unborn fetus right into a trash can.

    let the mother witness this.

    let the sick twisted individual see what she just did to her child. let the murderer witness her crime.

    maybe the pro-choicers would change their stance if they were to witness such an act. I mean…it doesnt matter anyways, right? because its just a rotten piece of flesh..its not a human being. am I right? that IS what you believe if I’m not mistaken…

    it shouldnt matter how they extract the little beast of burden.

    ok, I think I’ve made my point.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Democrats. Tough on fetuses, easy on terrorists” by Steve

    Do you have any idea where I can get that??? That is a good one and it is very true!!!

    “overpopulation???/”

    You know if they made all houses single story and a few yards apart (I forget exact number) then they can fit the entire world in the state of Texas???

    I don’t think overpopulation is an accurate argument for the abortionists. I believe that the legalization of abortion has caused more births (ecspecially among the poor).

    Think about it. A poor, 21 year old woman, named Kisha, says, “Oh it’s all right. I don’t have to worry about getting pregnant because I can just go and get an abortion.” Then Kisha gets pregnant and she thinks to herself, “Oh my God!!! I can’t go and kill my baby. And how can I even afford the abortion???”

    So the idea of abortion allows Kisha to get pregnant and her morals and the thought of money stop her from getting it. And because of all this there is another baby in the world.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “I’m neither, but the pro-lifers seem to be, as they don’t seem to care about babies once they’re born.”

    It is the so called “PRO-CHOICERS” fault that Kisha had a baby and we have another young boy living in poverty.

    Comment 197, hey great idea!!! And while we are at let’s make Winston Jen, Td and RogerMDillon witness it too.

    If there is a Hell I think what is suggested in comment 197, by Steve, would be an excellent punishment for you Pro-Death people for eternity.

  • peter

    Is there some way to keep foster kids from finding out they were a product of rape? This guy I knew found out and blew his brains out.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Well, to so readily blow your brains out just shows that your freind did have that great of a life anyway.

  • joon

    peter, the odds that a kid can overcome the idea that both his or her parents did not want him or her are against the kid. add to that rape?! that’s one fucked up kid. makes me believe first and second trimester abortions have the community’s and kid’s best interest at hand.
    i had this neighbor. sad only child. his pop ignored him. his mom died during childbirth. dude grew up with some serious guilt.

  • practical joe

    It would be more humane to wait until the little bastard reaches the age of reason and then use a cyanide pill if life is too unpleasant. Cyanide kills more quickly than an abortion.

  • RogerMDillion

    “ok, I think I’ve made my point.”

    That no one cares about what you think, steve? You make that point with each comment.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Speak for yourself Roger. Steve is a very smart and creative man.

    This whole thing with the guy who killed himself because he is rape bastard is not justification for Abortion. Not everyone is the product of a rape and not everyone’s mom died while giving birth.

    And comment 203 is a good point.

  • KYS

    Steve,
    Do you also support public executions? Those aren’t pretty, either.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    What’s wrong KYS??? You don’t want to witness an abortion???

    Executions of any sort should be banned along with abortion.

  • KYS

    Anthony, except in rape cases, right?

  • KYS

    Right, Anthony? You’ve previously said that women should have a choice in rape cases.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Don’t make me say it again. I feel a sharp pain in my chest when I say it.

    If there was a proposition to ban ALL abortions I would definately vote yes. But if there was a proposition after Roe v. Wade is overturned that stated that rape victims had to give birth I would just not show up to the polls.

    You liberals can then fight for victims of rape to have an abortion and I won’t question you.

    Don’t laugh. Roe v. Wade will be overturned and if your state decides to ban ALL abortions you will have to fight for abortion for rape victims.

  • KYS

    I don’t care about the sharp pain in your chest. You’ll have to say it as often as needed to clarify your position.

    But here’s the deal: you’re on the fence, whether you admit it or not. You would allow a rape victim to abort because she had no “choice” to concieve. You would deny the same choice to a young couple who did everything humanly possible to avoid conception, while demonstrating the GOD GIVEN drive to have sex.

    Here is my question:

    If a man and woman have as much of a desire NOT to concieve as a rape victim, and they take all possible precautions (ie condoms, et al), how can you force them to
    have children that are as unwanted as in rape????

    As a side note, what happens to the souls of aborted babies? Don’t they go to heaven by default? Sounds like a nice shortcut to me .

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “You would deny the same choice to a young couple who did everything humanly possible to avoid conception”

    Obviosly not everything. They had sex. If you have sex than you must not really be that adamant about not having kids.

    “while demonstrating the GOD GIVEN drive to have sex.”

    I thought you didn’t believe in God. If you must have sex God gave us another tool: FOREPLAY.

    Killing is killing. Abortion is killing. Rape is rape. Killing is the second worst thing that humans do. Rape is the worst thing that humans do. If a woman is raped than I believe she should be able erase that entire memory. If she gets pregnant from the rape than I believe (if and only if it is done in the first week) she can erase that memory.

    Rape is terrible. If the woman gets pregnant then she can KILL that memory device as long as she does it right away.

    This is the last time I will explain my position I have explained it several times.

  • KYS

    “Obviosly not everything. They had sex. If you have sex than you must not really be that adamant about not having kids.”

    This statement is so absurd. If you are a virgin, you may have some credibility, but otherwise, spare me.

    “I thought you didn’t believe in God. If you must have sex God gave us another tool: FOREPLAY.”

    I don’t believe in YOUR understanding of god, but don’t presume to have a handle on my faith…

    “This is the last time I will explain my position I have explained it several times.”

    If you keep saying it, be prepared to keep defending it. Otherwise get your ass off these posts.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “If you keep saying it, be prepared to keep defending it.”

    Good, I am no longer saying it.

  • KYS

    Praise the lord.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Now since you keep talking about God tell me about your faith. How do defend the belief of God.

  • KYS

    “How do defend the belief of God”

    What’s the question?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    KYS, let’s say that I am saying that there is no God. How do you defend why you believe God???

  • Winston Jen

    Anthony, if god gave us the ‘gift’ of foreplay, why did he give infertile people the gift of being able to have sex without producing children?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Why are you asking me??? KYS is the one talking about God.

  • Winston Jen

    Because you said this, Anthony: “I thought you didn’t believe in God. If you must have sex God gave us another tool: FOREPLAY.”

  • Oliver Groanwell

    “When will I be able to go to McDonalds and get a McFetus burger value meal? Soon hopefully”

    Tyical UNETHICAL approach to the situation. But speaking of eating, at least pigs have the wherewithal to eat their unwanted.

  • RogerMDillion

    Anthony thinks FOREPLAY is dimming the lights and listening to an audiobook by Sean Hannity.

  • Winston Jen

    And just HOW are people supposed to get orgasms from someone that tells them not to have sex?

  • Luke

    “If abortion was illegal, how would you pay for the tens of thousands of new single mothers and orphans that this would create?”
    There’re 75,000,000 people added to the worlds population every year, abortions make little difference.
    to keep the worlds population stable, there would have to be more than 75,000,000 abortions per year

  • practical joe

    “If abortion was illegal, how would you pay for the tens of thousands of new single mothers and orphans that this would create?”

    I would start by neutering the single mothers…

    …and their boyfriends.

    Orphans I would take care of.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “There’re 75,000,000 people added to the worlds population every year, abortions make little difference.”

    P.J., I hate to say this but you are wrong. There are 45,000,000 abortions world wide every year. That is right. There are 45 million murders every fucking year.

    “If abortion was illegal, how would you pay for the tens of thousands of new single mothers and orphans that this would create?”

    Now I believe that abortions create more births and single mothers than it prevents.

    Here is a story:

    Karen is 17. She is sexually active. She is worried about getting pregnant and becoming a single mother. She thinks to herself, “I don’t have to worry about getting pregnant, I can just have an abortion.”

    Three months later Karen finds out that she is pregnant. She panics. She calms down and thinks I can just get an abortion. Then she becomes appalled when she thinks about how her baby, a part of her, will die. Then she tries to think it is just a ball of matter it has no feelings but it is still in the back of her mind. Then she relizes that it wil cost money. Then she thinks, “What if there is a God? What would God think of me ending a life?”

    With these three factors she decides not to get the abortion, she has a baby girl, she has no job or husband.

    The words of Planned Parenthood and the Roe v. Wade decision allowed her to get pregnant. There is another fatherless child in the world. If Roe v. Wade were to be overturned Karen would have been more cautious or practiced abstinence and wouldn’t have gotten pregnant.

    Therefore, the amount of single mothers that banning abortions would cause is not a valid argument.
    ——

    Now let’s say that Karen did decide to have the abortion after all:

    She would become one of the 93% of woman who live the rest of their lives in regret and remorse.

  • Winston Jen

    Get real, Anthony. Abstinence-only education leads to more pregnancies and does almost nothing to reduce them. Many teenagers break their vows of abstinence, and seeing as they are less likely to carry around ‘evil’ condoms…

    Regardless, where is your evidence that 93% of women who have abortions regret it for the rest of their lives?

  • td

    Making up stories is fun.

    Here’s a story….Billy handed in a science project based on stories. Jack handed in a science project based on facts. Billy failed science.

    60% of the world lives in an area where women can have abortions without giving a reason. The other 40% live in areas where they can only have an abortion if their is a valid medical reason. Some areas not under any reason.

    20 million of the 45 million abortions are performed illegally.

    In other words, even though Abortion is not allowed or highly discouraged in 40% of the world, those women still trying to have unplanned pregnancies aborted. The difference, in some areas 25% of illegal abortions end in death for the mother.

    Here is my point for the last time.

    I am okay with making abortion illegal if the population is willing to spend the money needed to provide an above poverty standard of living to all children, plannedor unplanned.

    BUT the fact is that:

    If their is not enough political will to save millions of lives by instituting Universal Health care, then where is the political will going to come from to pay for the children of unplanned pregnancies.

    Saving lives means spending tax dollars. We can save more lives right now if we had more tax dollars to spend. So before you respond again with “Killing is wrong!”.

    Go check who you voted for in the last election, and how much they have raised taxes in order to spend on programs that will save lives.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “The difference, in some areas 25% of illegal abortions end in death for the mother.”

    That 25% number is really over doing it. It is probabally more like 5%. And I would rather have a few thousand mothers trying to illegally kill their babies die than 45 million innocent babies.

    ——-

    Abstinence only education Winsten???

    I was taught about abstinence once in 7th grade. It was not imbedded in the minds of students. And the legalization of Abortion cause mor unplanned pregnancies than abstinence education.

  • http://www.ryanclarkholiday.com ryan

    I’ve posted a more general and borad arugment against the practice itself, regardless of legal issues, here: Blog Critics: Our Glaring Contradiction

  • Winston Jen

    Anthony, abstinence-only education is doomed to fail, with or without legal abortion. Teenagers are going to want to have sex with other teenagers. Nothing you can do will change that.

    Do you really want women to induce abortions themselves? They’d be putting their own health at risk and may be unable to bear other children.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Winsten, there is no such thing as Absinence only education. There was a brief mention of about abstinence in 7th grade when we were talking about how to combat Aids. Right after that brief mention of abstinence there was a brief mention of abortion.

    If Abstinence was taught in every grade every year there would be more kids practicing it.

    ———-

    “Do you really want women to induce abortions themselves? They’d be putting their own health at risk and may be unable to bear other children.”

    If Abortion was banned the 1,300,000 annual number (U.S.) would go far down. The number of pregnancies will go down. And when they do get pregnant a very small percentage will do it illegally. And a very small percent of that will die. And the major majoriy of who survives will be indicted for murder which will discourage future attempts of others to get an illegal abortion.

    I am totally fine with a coupe thousand law breaking women going to jail and couple hundred law breaking women dying than have 1,300,000 American babies being killed every year.

  • Winston Jen

    Anthony, you seem misinformed about abstinence-only education. The Bush administration, together with the Religious Right, only support and fund programs that push abstinence as the ONLY way to prevent STDs and pregnancy, despite the fact that comphrehensive sex education reduces both of these.

    You also seem to care nothing for the mother, who is a living, conscious human being.

  • RogerMDillion

    “Anthony, you seem misinformed about abstinence-only education.”

    If it were only that.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “You also seem to care nothing for the mother, who is a living, conscious human being.”

    I do care for the mother which is why I support her right to choose to get pregnant, to have an abortion if she is in danger, and to have an abortion in case of rape (as long as it is done in the first week or two).

    Abstinence is the only way to completely end Aids.

  • Winston Jen

    Abstinence is also the least likely method of actually WORKING. It’d be more effective to castrate/neuter everyone so they don’t get these evil sexual urges, right?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Abstinence is also the least likely method of actually WORKING.”

    I agree. Which is why we will always have Aids. But let’s teach Abstinence so that we can reach some kids who will practice it makeing America that much better.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “It’d be more effective to castrate/neuter everyone so they don’t get these evil sexual urges, right?”

    Yeah, if you want to end the human race. How will we reproduce.

  • Winston Jen

    Silly Anthony. We could simply store everyone’s sperm and eggs until they wanted to reproduce. That would end the abortions you are so worried about.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    You go and do that Winsten.

  • Winston Jen

    I have a better idea, AG. Go back to school and learn to spell. Try and show basic respect for your opponents in a debate.

  • td

    Obviously you didn’t read my post anthony.

    Out of the 45 Million abortions, 20 million (almost half) are performed illegally.

    So you have no basis for saying that abortions would go down by any significant amount if they were made illegal because the evidence clearly shows women would still try to have their babies aborted.

    Why do women abort, even if it means they might die? Because they know that they, or the powers that be, cannot provide an above poverty standard of living for the children.

    If you look at crime in America most of it can be linked to poverty. So if a single mother of 4 who is already below the poverty line decides to abort her child so that she can be able to provide her children with the financial and emotional support necessary to keep them out of trouble, then maybe she is saving lives down the road.

    You can’t just make blanket statements like “Saving lives of fetuses is good, and so that’s all that matters”. You have to take into consideration the effects that would result from trying to care and support for every potential pregnancy.

    You keep saying that if abortion were illegal then unplanned pregnancies would go down. Well, all you have shown to back this up is your own personal assumptions. Back it up with some statistics or describe how the government plans to support non-aborted babies.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    “Out of the 45 Million abortions, 20 million (almost half) are performed illegally.

    So you have no basis for saying that abortions would go down by any significant amount if they were made illegal because the evidence clearly shows women would still try to have their babies aborted.”

    That 20 million comes from China and many third world countries where the law isn’t strong and can be very corruptable. So the law of the land really doesn’t matter. The case is different in the U.S.

    Only 1,300,000 abortions are done each year in the U.S. When abortions are banned we will give guaranteed murder life sentences for haveing your baby murdered or murdering another’s baby (abortion doctors). And then, unlike China, we will enforce the law which will discourage illegal abortions.

    So basically Abortions in the U.S. will end when abortions are banned. There will be the few law breakers though that get away with it. A few of them will be harmed and that is fine with me. I’d rather have a few hundred dead murderors than 1,300,000 murders.

    ——–

    “Because they know that they, or the powers that be, cannot provide an above poverty standard of living for the children.”

    THEN DON’T GET PREGNANT!!!

  • td

    Do you ever check you facts?

    Abortion is legal in china. Some of the major countries where abortion is illegal are: Brazil, Argentina, Australia (with some exceptions), Mexico, most of southern Africa and south-east asia.

    I agree that corruptions is more prevelant in a lot of these countries, but usually those that are most corrupt are also the poorest, and with the fewest doctors able to perform the surgery. In most of these countries the child is carried to term and then killed.

    The majority of Illegal abortions that make up the 20 million figure come from countries like Argentina where the stats can be somewhat verified.

    In argentina 500,000 illegal abortions are performed each year. Those who causes an abortion are punished with detention or prison from three to ten years. It is no slap on the wrist and if they are to poor to care for the child then where are they getting the money to pay off officials to overlook the offence.

    Columbia is the same. 450,000 abortions, punishment is 4-12 years.

    800,000 in the Philippines, punishment is very severe, including the possibility of the death penalty.

    And I can keep going.

    Are you saying that all these women are able to corrupt officials. Or will you accept the fact that women are going to have abortions regardless of punishment.

    But even if I grant you that making abortion illegal will effect the number of abortions, there is still the question of money.

    First, many women will still have an abortion, illegally, regardless of the law. Currently only 70% of murders are solved each year. Where does the money come from the investigate these new ‘abortion’ murders.

    Second, while some women may be more careful, many will still get pregnant because: contraception and the pill are still not 100% effective, people are careless (ie: get drunk), rapes, etc.

    So you are still going to see an increase in births. Some of which will be supported fully by their parents, some of which will become wards of the state ($$$$), and some of which will be partially supported by their parents or in many cases parent in which case the government will pick up the rest of the tab ($$$$).

    So are you saying that you would reverse Bush’s tax cuts to pay for illegalizing abortion, or do you have another area of government that you want to take money from?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Thank you td for the information. I had always thought that China was anti-abortion, but then again that one baby fascination they have probabally makes abortion very popular there.

    “while some women may be more careful, many will still get pregnant because: contraception and the pill are still not 100% effective, people are careless (ie: get drunk), rapes, etc.”

    Not having sex is 100% guaranteed not to get you pregnant.

    “many women will still have an abortion, illegally,”

    This is a law abiding country of ours. We do have some bad eggs that will still have the abortion regardless, but they are a minority.

    Now if we put very severe punishment for illegal abortions then we wouldn’t have to worry about investigating new murder cases because they wouldn’t happen.

  • RogerMDillion

    “Not having sex is 100% guaranteed not to get you pregnant.”

    tell that to the Virgin Mary

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Oh sorry Roger. Make that 99.9999999%+

  • Winston Jen

    Why did you ignore this statement completely, Anthony?

    “800,000 in the Philippines, punishment is very severe, including the possibility of the death penalty.”

    And yet you still assert:

    “This is a law abiding country of ours. We do have some bad eggs that will still have the abortion regardless, but they are a minority.

    Now if we put very severe punishment for illegal abortions then we wouldn’t have to worry about investigating new murder cases because they wouldn’t happen.”

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Winston, the Phillipines is not very tough on enforcing the law. It is also a very dangerous place.

  • Winston Jen

    Well then, what makes you think that it will be enforced in the US, especially considering that a majority support the right to an abortion?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Wrong!!! The majority are Pro-Life. Even Jane Roe, in Roe v. Wade, has switched to the side that supports choice and LIFE.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Jane Roe’s opinion does not change the fact that over 50 percent of Americans have consistently said that Roe v. Wade should be upheld.

  • td

    “Wrong!!! The majority are Pro-Life. Even Jane Roe, in Roe v. Wade, has switched to the side that supports choice and LIFE.”

    Again Anthony. Check your statments or you just look stupid.

    Though the percentage has declined since the early 90’s, the majority of American’s are still Pro-Choice. A Harris Poll conducted this year found that 52 percent support Roe vs. Wade, while 47 percent are opposed.

    However, in the same poll 60 to 38 percent majority favors legal abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy.

    Moving on.

    Actually, the philipines is very tough on abortion. The reason why Abortion is still illegal in the phillipines is due to a very rich pro-life lobby group. Because of the pressure and influence this lobby group has on the government, underground abortion clinics are regularily raided and their operators jailed. Also, because of the prevalence of religion throughout the country many women who undergo ‘backyard’ abortions are reported by they’re own families.

    So, you have a police force that cannot solve 30% of current murders. You have the majority of the population that supports pro-choice. And you have a pro-choice lobby that is just as powerful as the pro-life lobby.

    Taking these facts into consideration your hypothesis that America would somehow institute a police state control over illegal abortions that no other country has been able to come close to, nor that America has been effective at when dealing with all other major criminal offenses……well basically, your out to lunch.

    You are living in a fantasy land if you think all you have to do is say that Abortion is illegal by punishment of life in jail and all of a sudden everyone will practice abstinance.

    It hasn’t worked with regular murders, drunk driving, drugs, rape, abuse, etc, etc.

    But as sad as those crimes are, few leave long-term financial concequences. Where as non-aborted babies have to be supported for 18 years.

    So do you have any concrete evidence to back up your fantasy, or are you just going to keep lying about laws and statistics in hope that people don’t know how to type “abortion facts” into google.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Td, polls do tend to be off. 52-47 is not a big enough to say that more people support abortion.

    I say we overturn Roe v. Wade. Then it would go to each individual state to decide if they want abortion in their state. The majority of the states will ban abortion. I am sure a few of the New England states will allow abortion. What is wrong with this???

    I am not saying that everyone will practice abstinence. More will practice it. By having strict laws illegal abortions will be rare.

    I am not supporting a ban on abortions to end premartal sex. I am supporting abstinence because I want to reduce abortions.

    Drugs, rape, murder ect. still exist, but how many rapes would happen if rape was legal??? If drugs were legal imagine how many more drug adicts there would be. If we ban abortion imagine how much abortions would go down.

  • http://tonedeaf@gmail.com td

    Again you show no evidence to back up your claim that by ‘having strict laws, abortions will be rare’.

    By having strict Murder laws, murders are still not rare. And that is in a country where 100% of the people are against murder. 60% of people still favor legal abortion in the first trimester. The 52 figure is people’s opinions on the specifics of Roe vs Wade.

    By banning abortions the number would go down. But not by anywhere near the amount you think. As shown by the illegal abortion rates in other countries.

    If you want Sates to decide on abortions then why can’t they decide on the right to bear arms as well?

    States can apply certain restrictions on guns, but they cannnot outlaw all private ownership of a guns. Similarily states can already pass limited laws concerning abortions, but they cannot outlaw the right to abortion as defined by the federal government.

    Shootings would go down if guns were made illegal. DUI deaths would go down if alcohol was made illegal. However, the majority of the population believes that guns should be legal, and alcohol should be served. And the majority still believe in the right to choose.

  • Yawn

    Chances are she probably screwed the guard..but I still don’t want to pay for it…let me pay for the child who needs a bone marrow transplant instead