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Illegal Immigration: The “Gay Marriage” Issue of the 2008 Election

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Things can change really fast in six weeks. As autumn began, it was almost certain that a Democrat, probably Hillary Clinton, would be elected president in the next election. A friend of mine told me that he was so sure the Democrats would take over the presidency that if they didn’t, he would gladly run naked through a church. Thanks to Democrat idol Elliot Spitzer, who had the “brilliant” idea of granting drivers licenses to illegal immigrants, my friend can now look forward to prison while the Democrats may have to wait until the Republicans launch another uncalled for war in order to take the presidency.

In 2004, the Republicans brilliantly sidestepped the war by making gay marriage the main issue. One may laugh at this now, given that Republican spokesperson Bill O’Reilly was caught in phone sex tapes detailing talk that could be construed as homoerotic, beloved Republican Mark Foley was caught playing pin the penis with underage boys, and Larry Craig – well, you know. The main point is that the Republicans brilliantly used this issue to win an election. Now, is gay marriage really the “threat” to society that Republicans made it out to be? Are Dorothy styled weddings really going to hurt anybody? Is giving the same rights to people, regardless of their sexual preference and love of Barbara Streisand, going to bring down society? The answer is an easy “No!” but Republicans were very smart to make people think otherwise.

Flash forward three years later. George W. Bush’s ratings are lower than low while opposition to the war in Iraq has doubled since the last election. Gee, what can Republicans do to sidestep their failures this time? Two words: Illegal Immigration. The only difference between 2004 and 2007 is that unlike gay marriage, illegal immigration is actually a huge threat to our society. Although I could barely say the word “Republican” a year ago, I would gladly vote for the Republican candidate who promises to do something about illegal immigration, the biggest travesty to hit our country since slavery.

I know there are people reading this, screaming “RACIST!” After all, calling somebody a racist these days has become a cliché, just as calling someone a communist was in the 1950s. Actually, I was one of those, ten years ago, who thought that people against illegal immigration were racists. That was right around the time I moved to Southern California and landed my first teaching job at a school in Costa Mesa, one that housed a huge illegal immigrant student population. I was honored to teach these students and even learned Spanish in order to help them. When I saw how much these students and their families devalued education, my opinion started to change.

Don’t get me wrong: not all of the illegal immigrant students were bad. There were some who wanted to work hard and make something out of their lives. But I can safely tell you that most of them were harassed by the other students, beaten up, or, in one case, murdered. The majority of the illegal immigrant students tore up textbooks, wrote gang graffiti all over the classroom, tore down American flags all over the school, sexually harassed other teachers, and did every other disgraceful thing one can imagine. Their favorite graffiti phrase was “M.E.C.H.A,” which I later found out to be a school-sponsored hate group that used "Por la raza todo, fuera de la raza nada" as their motto. That means “Everything for the race. Everything outside the race, nothing.” Oh, they also preached for the extinction of all non-brown people. The hatred and intolerance that radiated from these students was absolutely pathetic, but not quite as pathetic as the school district’s silence on their behavior.

I did not hate any of these kids; it was very hard to, especially given their situation. Often, when calling parents about their behavior, the teachers would be told to stop calling or that the parents simply didn’t care about the kids. I later found out that many of these kids were used as anchor babies and had no other important purpose for life in the eyes of their families. It’s funny how illegal alien activists always use the phrase, “for the children” but don’t seem to care when these children are pathetically exploited for immigration purposes.

After this experience, the illegal immigration issue started to bother me. When I witnessed thousands of Illegal crime committing aliens march to protest (while waving flags from Mexico and other countries) our laws on the streets of Los Angeles last year, I learned that there was a war being launched against the United States. I joked to someone that we will soon see murderers, pedophiles, arsonists and others march for their “rights” too. She thought that the comparison was a little extreme, but saw the point I was trying to make.

Apparently, all the criminal illegal immigrants and their supporters have shot themselves in the foot. George Bush’s plan to give amnesty to millions of criminals who entered our land unlawfully, with many engaging in identity theft, murder, and other crimes, has failed to pass. Many of the amnesty supporters, such as John McCain, have received severe death threats from citizens because of their support.

This issue has emotionally hit people like no other since abortion. The difference here is that a large majority of Democrats and Republicans agree that criminal illegal immigrants are socially and financially destroying this country. George Bush might have alienated many of his Republican followers by supporting the failed blanket amnesty proposal, but another Republican, Rudy Giuliani, is picking up the pieces by taking a hard stance against illegal criminal invaders. He will certainly win the Republican nomination and – if he makes illegal immigration the top issue of his campaign – will be our next president.

Still think I’m a racist? I ask all of you pro-criminal alien supporters to do me a favor: Take a trip to either Mexico, El Salvador, or even Guatemala one day. Enter there illegally and demand that all their documents be written in English and Spanish. Then, go mock their laws by marching with an American flag, telling them their laws are racist. If you’re still alive after that, it would be a miracle.

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About Daryl D

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I can tell from the article that you clearly expect people to start calling you ‘racist’ and that you think that would somehow be unfair.

    But when you start to use the rhetoric and the deceits that the racist nativists are using, you shouldn’t be surprised to be lumped in with them.

    For example, you keep referring to what was proposed to deal with the illegal alien problem as an ‘amnesty’ bill, when it was clearly nothing of the kind. Even the worst versions of the bill included clear procedures for limiting illegal immigration and stringent procedures by which former illegals could apply for citizenship behind other immigrants. Hardly the blanket amnesty you describe.

    You also say “Bush’s plan to give amnesty to millions of criminals who entered our land unlawfully” when one of the provisions also in EVERY version of the immigration bill was improved enforcement and tracking to keep truly criminal immigrants out of the country.

    In point of fact, without immigration reforms and a more structured method of tracking immigrants, we can’t identify which are criminals and which are not, and by opposing immigration reform you’re helping to perpetuate the current inadequate system which lets criminals in and turns desirable potential immigrants into criminals.

    Like so many who are hot and bothered about this issue, you don’t seem to have thought the implications of your position through.

    Dave

  • Fabrizio Gentili

    Considering that the Mexican and South American portion of the undocumented immigrants accounts for just a little over 60% of the entire undocumented population, to generalize the issue as a racial issue is wrong in so many ways and from so many points of view.
    Of course when the racial bias segregates a large part of this 60%, it creates a flourishing ground for the even smaller percentage of individuals who turn to criminal environments as they are more welcoming to them as the rest of society is.
    It’s true there are over 12 million that are in this country living and working without proper documentation, but like american citizens they are victims of a broken immigration law system that forces so many industries to employ willing workers to do jobs that even if the rest of the americans would get up their fat ass and be willing to do, would still not be enough to cover all the farming, healthcare, service and so many industries’ need.
    with an unemployment at 4%( a might be wrong by few points), a simple math will show that once the undocumented are removed, the economy would collapse for black hole left behind and the millions of jobs that would be left vacant.
    So if instead of marginalizing and politicizing this issue Congress would actually address the complicated and emotional issue of re-writing the immigration regulation to reflect the needs of the people of this country allowing the demand for labour to be legally matched with the available labour, that does come form people willing to contribute to this country at the best that they are offered, then you would see that only when out of the shadows and integrated in society, “these” people would not be the enemy that the most bigots are depicting them to be.
    For as wrong as the gangs are, and the enforcement of the law should be followed to extreme extent in those cases, they still are for many of the marginalized undocumented the only welcoming arms they find once they are here.
    Every individual will do good if given the opportunity.
    But every individual will do wrong if given no other choice.
    The immigration system has been broken for several years now, even before Bush wanted to regularize the status of million of contributors that by being kept in the shadows create the perfect cloud behind which I don’t as you don’t as no one does not know what could hide behind.

  • http://www.OUTTAKEonline.com Charlotte

    For the truth check out our trailer on Gay Marriage. Produced to educate & defuse the controversy it has a way of opening closed minds & creates an interesting spin on the issue: http://www.OUTTAKEonline.com

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Fabrizio, stop posting stuff that’s blatantly, obviously true. You’re just going to piss off the anti-immigrant fanatics with their inability to refute your simple common sense.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Dave – In point of fact, all immigrants that enter this country illegally are criminals. Makes it real easy to figure out which ones are criminals and which ones aren’t. The ones that come in LEGALLY aren’t…the ones that come in ILLEGALLY are criminals. Seems pretty simple to me!

  • Bettybb

    Great article.

    And you are correct, the Hispanic culture does not value education. A report came out about immigrants. Most immigrants by the second generation are off to college. It takes 4 generations before the Hispanic Americans get high school diplomas.

    Why is this important? Paul Samuelson, the economist, has pointed out that we must select our immigrants, and take the brightest and best who put more into an ecomony than they take out. Then we can have a few low skilled immigrants who will need to be carried for a generation.

    Of course, the Hispanic -American culture does not change, that means society is carry these citizens for 3 generations rather than one. Very costly.

    But note, Rudy is NOT tough on illegal immigration. He will give amnesty for those already here. I am a 20 year plus Dem voter who will vote Repub this time around, and I hope that the candidate will be Romney or, if that fails, Thompson. Tancredo and Hunter are too extreme on other issues. So is Thompson really.

    But illegal immigration is the no. one issue facing our country.

    Mr. Gentili:

    You are incorrect. All the illegal aliens’ Days without Immigrants showed that they are totally irrelevant to our economy, not even a blimp on the radar screen. Besides, how long would it take us to replace 12 million illegals with 12 million legals from around the world? About a week?

    Americans are taking the jobs that are left vacant when ICE picks up illegals. Of course the employers have to pay American wages and take the deductions and pay workers comp etc. They are unhappy. They prefer cheap illegal labor. Too bad.

    Sure we need to redo our immigration system. One, we must do away with family reunification and anchor babies. We must go with people who have the knowledge and skills we need. Also, we already have a system of generalized quotas for each area of the world. Latin Americans are given about double the amount. That is unfair and must change.

    Of course like Europe we must ensure that employers are not just looking for cheaper labor. There must be continuing monitoring of business claiming it needs immmigrant labor to ensure that they are paying American level wages, and benefits and in fact no Americans are available for the job.

    And we must enforce our laws so that all the illegals self deport. If they have not engaged in arny other crime other than crossing the border and working, then they can apply legally just like everyone else in the world. But if they have ignored a court order, or come back after being deported, or engaged in ID theft, or fraud, they are out for good.

    I know, you are going to yell, bigot! Racist! Why? Because I believe in the rule of alw. One law for everyone, applied equally. The illegal aliens want preferential treamtent. No way.

    Guess what? I myself have been an illegal immigrant in another country. I understand the frustrations with any immigration system. However, what I don’t understand is the attitude of the illegals in America; arrogant, demanding, whinny, even though they have not a leg to stand on. Unbelievable. We are even hearing “threats” of a Latino Infitada if they don’t get what they want. Othewise known as a tantrum. Of course, that will just make Americans more determined to take back our country, and reinforce the idea that these illegal aliens are not cut out to be Americans – they have no respect for America, Americans or our laws.

    Dave:

    Sorry, you are incorrect. Bush’s amnesty did did have a provision to check for criminals, … it all had to be done within one day. Right. A total impossiblity. Every murderer, rapist, theft, gangbanber would have been given the z visa with the right to be here and get citizenship. It was one of the points that turned people against the amesnty bill.

    Two, it was amnesty. Was anyone going to jail and serve the full term for their crimes? Nope. That means amnesty. All they had to do is pay a couple tthousand bucks and 15 years from now sign up for an English class (no need to actually take it).
    How many people worldwide do you think would jump at such an offer?…. it is insulting to American citizenship it is so puny.

  • Clavos

    “And you are correct, the Hispanic culture does not value education.”

    First of all, there is no such thing as “the Hispanic culture.” There are more than 20 Latin American countries, each with its own unique culture.

    Second. The oldest university in the Americas is the National Autonomous University of Mexico, in Mexico City. Strange that a culture that “does not value education” would establish the first university (By more 75 years) in the New World.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    This article is not only offensive and hateful…it reads like an essay written by a not particularly well informed 8th grader.

    The jocular tone taken toward the GOP’s ‘brilliant’ use of gay marriage in 2004 serves no good purpose and is grossly oversimplified political analysis as well.

    And by the time we get to this little gem, the level of intellect we are confronting is dismayingly clear:
    I joked to someone that we will soon see murderers, pedophiles, arsonists and others march for their “rights” too. She thought that the comparison was a little extreme, but saw the point I was trying to make. [Good for her; the rest of us are still waiting for your ‘point.’]

    The other side of this argument is that there already are many thousands of immigrants here, and many of them are doing jobs that I bet cute little Daryl wouldn’t be caught dead doing. Mass deportations and/or arrests are both impractical and grossly inhumane. That’s the reason people as different as John McCain, Elliot Spitzer, and, yes, George Bush have looked for a sane alternative, only to be turned on by the loudest, most extreme [but not most numerous] voices.

    This may indeed be a major issue in some Republican primary states, where extremist slogans count for more than they should, and people like Daryl and Andy Marsh would feel right at home. But any general election candidate who decided to give a speech that reads like this miserable article would have his head handed to him. And rightfully so.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    It’s kind of ironic that the one issue on which I agree with Bush wholeheartedly is also the one which Congress – both Republican and Democratic – has most strenuously opposed him on.

    The Democrats do recognize this as a hot-button issue and I don’t think they have any intention of being caught napping as they were with the gay marriage pallaver. Sadly, there’s probably no-one in the Party who can express the opposing argument with as much clarity and persuasiveness as Dave and Fabrizio have.

    Couple of other things. My wife’s best friend teaches elementary school in a small town with a large population of undocumented immigrants, and her experience is quite different from Daryl’s. While there are some bad apples, most of the parents are effusively grateful that their children are getting a (perceived) good education. Thinking long-term, it’s a way out of poverty for their families.

    And finally – what?? – Elliot Spitzer is going to singlehandedly destroy the Democrats’ chances of winning the presidency? Come on, Daryl. Apart from the rather significant fact that he’s now dropped the idea, how about you take a random sample of ten voting-age Americans and find out how many of those ten even know who the man is, let alone what he proposed.

  • daryl d

    Wait a second, I never generalized and said that all Hispanics don’t generalize education. My sister in law is a third generation Hispanic and she has a Master’s Degree. My niece is attending UCLA right now. A lot of other Hispanics do. The illegal immigrant population, however, doesn’t and I’ll stick ot my theory from experience.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Bettybb, you appear to believe that the INS operates in some sort of alternate universe where bureaucratic time occupies its own special dimension.

    You claim that the US could admit 12 million legal aliens in a week, but dismiss the idea that criminal background checks on immigrants could be done in a day.

    Pretty effective job of dismantling your own argument there. Well done.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    handyguy – I promise you that this isn’t an issue that I would use to pick a candidate for anything, I was just making the point that Dave can’t seem to identify who the criminals are here and whatever name you want to use for them, they’re here illegally. And where I come from, illegal means the same thing as criminal.

    You may prefer the term undocumented…I guess if someone gets pulled over without a drivers license we can call them undocumented drivers?

    Back in the day, when my grandfather came to this country, they dealt with people WithOutPapers…They still went through the process of becoming documented…even if it came with the unofficial name WOP attached…

    The governor of NY wanted to give illegals drivers licenses…I guess he wants to give them insurance too???? Ever been in a car accident with an “undocumented” worker before? You better have uninsured motorist coverage too!!!

    I personally have no problem with folks coming to this country to try to make a better life for themselves…the question is, why can’t they go through the process like everyone else? Is it because the process is to hard…time consuming??? Requires one to learn a little english…hell not even english…american would be good enough!

    Maybe we should just open the borders wide…let any tomdickorharry in to do whatever they want to do?

    I don’t have the answer…but pretending that undocumented isn’t criminal surely can’t be it!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Spitzer’s idea wasn’t as cockamamie as it’s been made to appear. It was an attempt to deal with reality rather than with what we may wish were reality. The idea was that the policy would improve public safety by bringing immigrants out of the shadows and reduce insurance costs as more immigrants obtained licenses and car insurance.

    This argument reminds me of the way Americans think about and deal with teenage sex. Teenagers are going to have sex, so let’s deal with that reality and tell them how to be safer and more responsible about it. Instead, many parents and politicians want to pretend that teaching abstinence is the way to go…thus ignoring the teens [nearly all] who can’t/won’t succeed in practicing abstinence. The result of this Denial-as-Policy is to increase teen pregnancy and teen STDs.

    The aliens are already here and they are going to keep coming. Let’s look for a sane, reasonable, humane way to deal with that instead of rabble-rousing.

  • AndiMedi

    A number of the arguments deployed by those opposed to legal and illegal immigration are worth examining and the concept of “anchor babies” is instructive.

    Describing people who come to this country and have children in order to gain legal immigration status invokes a number of the underlying hot button aspects of our current immigration chaos that are quite effective from a rhetorical standpoint. Clearly anyone doing this is trying to cheat or game the system, possibly gets benefits they don’t deserve, is using human life strategically for their own gain, and does not share our values.

    But the concept of “anchor babies,” like “welfare queens,” “sanctuary cities,” and even WMD, doesn’t hold up very well under scrutiny.

    Assume someone comes to this country and gives birth to a U.S. citizen. After 21 years, that child could begin the application process for permanent residence status for their parents, older siblings, and any of their children not born here. They would then wait an additional five years, depending on the country of origin and relationship to the person they are petitioning for to get a visa, with typical waits lasting much longer. For parents and siblings, the processing wait for a legal visa can last up to 22 years, again, depending on the country.

    Once the visa is available, if the person for whom it was obtained has been outside the US this entire time, they could come legally. If they had been in the country, they face an additional minimum of three years, but more often than that, a 10 year bar from entering legally.

    In the meantime, the parents and other non-citizen family members have no relief from deportation, would most likely be denied a tourist or other visa, and are limited in their eligibility for public benefits to what can be applied for on the basis of the citizenship of the child, and in rarer circumstances, a legal permanent-non-citizen in their family unit. All the while, like most illegal immigrants (60-75% by most estimates), paying federal withholding taxes and other taxes.

    So while the concept of “anchor babies” has rhetorical power and is often used on the menu of those opposed to immigration in general and illegal immigration in particular, its validity as a strategy to game the system is suspect (having a child in order to receive an immigration benefit 26-50+ years down the road).

    This has been an interesting message board, more civil and information-based than many, so while I know many will push back on the information above, I hope others will considerate it useful.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Well, I read just the other day that criminal penalties for crack are going to be put in line with regular coke…so, our prisons should have a lot of openings soon…

    Like I said…call them what you want…aliens…undocumented…do we just pretend that everything’s okeydokey??? Whether they’re here performing a service or not, they got here illegally!

    Okay, how about this…we’ll do one of those statute of limitations things…if they’ve been here more than 7 years illegally…and just for me I need to throw this in too…and they have a basic understanding of the language we speak here, then they can stay.

    But we can’t use this logic…Don’t worry about not playing by the rules…we’ll give you anything you want as long as you stay here and do the jobs we don’t wanna do!!! Sorry, that’s a crock of shit!

    You really believe because you give someone a drivers license that’s gonna MAKE them get insurance too…who’s skipping out on reality here???

  • Bettybb

    Nope. The illegals are not going to keep coming. America has spoken. It might take some time as Bush is playing games, but the fence will be up, and the border guards doubled, and the national guard will be posted.

    Is it inhumane for Mexico to deport illegals? It deports more illegals each year than the USA ! And it rounds people up. Hmmm…..

    No, it is not inhumane to round up illegals and deport them. They are criminals. That is what happens to criminals.

    The problem is the illegals actually think they are important to the USA. They are not. But they have been told by La Raza to yell racism at every opportunity. Sometimes it is funny, because the person being interview does it of context.

    There is a new study out. Legal immigrants normaly by generation 2, are producing kids going to college. The Hispanic Immigrants aren’t even getting high school diplomas until generation 4 ! They are as capable as anyone else. But their culture is such that they don’t value education, and parent support once they hit teen their teens, evaporates. The Mexican gov is trying to change this mentality.

  • Bettybb

    DR. Dreadful:

    You are splitting hairs.

    If the USA needed to get 12 million legal immigrants in one week, it could be done.

    With background checks, and with medical checks and following all the normal rules. The embassies in 140 countries around the world could have their staffs increased, and given priority to process immigrants.

    Do not forget how many legal immigrants are in the pipeline and have already gone through all of these procedures. And any admission could be conditional on completion if not info could be obtained (except medical – have to pass medical to get it).

    President Eisenhower was able in 4 months with 700 men to round up and deport 1.5 million Mexicans.

    All it takes is organization and the will to do it.

  • Bettybb

    Andi:

    Interesting post on anchor babies. I had not realized that it does not guarantee the criminal parents get in faster than normal.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You are splitting hairs.

    No, I’m pointing out your complete lack of logic, which your response only reinforces.

    If the USA needed to get 12 million legal immigrants in one week, it could be done.

    Well, let’s see. I’m a legal immigrant and it took five months for the London embassy to process my visa application, then the INS wanted me to wait another three months for a work permit (until I got cross because that’s not what the information on their website said), and it took them two years to grant me permanent residency.

    any admission could be conditional on completion

    I assume by this you mean criminal background checks could wait. Meantime, by the time the check came back positive, the alien would most likely have disappeared into the heartland, as many illegals currently do.

    President Eisenhower was able in 4 months with 700 men to round up and deport 1.5 million Mexicans.

    Yet you expect the INS to process eight times as many people sixteen times as fast.

    All it takes is organization and the will to do it.

    And money. Have you any conception of how many extra people the INS and the State Department would need to hire, how much of the resources of the FBI and CIA would need to be diverted, and how much the immigration service would still be relying on the essential background checks from the country of origin?

    Somehow I can’t see Joe Taxpayer being willing to eat all of that cost.

    Not to mention how we are supposed to actually physically get all those people here, all in one week? Ships aren’t fast enough and I severely doubt there are that many planes in the US commercial fleet.

    You’re living in fantasy land.

  • Las Vegas

    Wow, all the comments and so different. I am against illegal immigration in every way. Whether they cross the border illegally or come legally, but overstay their visa and worst of all, the ones that work without a valid work authorization visa and then have their anchor babies and demand that they must stay because America is separating them from their children. America is separating anyone, they have the rights to keep their children with them, just not here.
    Illegals always claim that America wants to kick them out and their children will have to go to a country that they don’t even know. Well, when they first came here, did they know America? What about their young children that they brought over illegally? Did they already know English or the Country? Of course not, but they learned and they can learn again.
    Let’s rid our country of this parasite and go on with building a wonderful life and dream, but not for all 3rd world people who are “just looking for work.” I’m so sick of hearing it. There is work in Mexico and other countries, they may have to move around to find it, but it is a big country.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave – In point of fact, all immigrants that enter this country illegally are criminals. Makes it real easy to figure out which ones are criminals and which ones aren’t. The ones that come in LEGALLY aren’t…the ones that come in ILLEGALLY are criminals. Seems pretty simple to me!

    So criminals are criminals, right? So the next time you get pulled over for speeding it would be just fine to have you tried and sentenced to death? After all, you’re a criminal, just like a murderer or a rapist. You could have kept your car below the speed limit.

    Simple is as simple does.

    Dave

  • Jerry

    Clavos, Re:#7 –

    I didn’t want to get in on this, but I know you are too smart and articulate for that post. How can you correlate the establishment of a university a few hundred years ago, in the social and economic center of Mexico, with the illegal immigrants we see flooding in? For that matter, what bearing does modern Mexico’s educational institutions have on the mind-set of Mexican border crossers?

    The lack of educational interest on the part of Hispanics in general (I also see this in Hispanics with roots in America going back for centuries) is more a result of accepted social mores pertaining to Hispanics (not because they are brown, by the way). There is nothing necessarily wrong with this, hence, many will do jobs Americans won’t do, and are happy with that….at least until La Raza gets ahold of them and brainwashes them into believing whitey is ruining their lives.

    Those who are citizens, and even non-citizens in some cases have every opportunity to get an education, from grade 1 through college; problem is many are just not interested.

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    I’ve said this before, but this thread illustrates my contention that the biggest threat to the United States are white, lower middle class rednecks. I’m talking about that group of people that spent their achool years underachieving on every front, who saw people who strove as elitists, who blamed all their own shortcomings as some government conspiracy favoring minorities, and who looked for a mouthpiece to articulate their frustrations and find a convenient scapegoat for them.

    The author of this article has stated on more than one occasion that getting attention is the most important aspect of writing. He’s succeeded.

    He’s attracted the audience of the numbly fearful, the people who know it’s somebody’s fault, but not theirs, the people who’s rather bitch than accept responsibility.

    We might want to come up with a better solution than “them vs. us”.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ray, I think you’re dead on up to a point. Where you miss the target is that these rabid nativists don’t seem to actually come from the white redneck population. I know a lot of those folks. They actually get on pretty well with Mexicans. The largest numbers of nativists seem to come from the working and middle class population of the states where there are few illegals and few Mexicans for that matter. They’re the same midwestern industrial workers who were the backbone of the KKK revival in the 1920s and again in the 1970s. Working class, perhaps, but more likely to belong to a union than to work on a farm.

    Dave

  • Jerry

    “They’re the same midwestern industrial workers who were the backbone of the KKK revival in the 1920s and again in the 1970s. Working class, perhaps, but more likely to belong to a union than to work on a farm”.

    Dave, rabid nativist that I am, I only meet one of your point of criteria, that is the “get on pretty well” part. You and Ray are so far in left field it isn’t even worth trying to debate you.
    I stand on solid ground with the other 70% of Americans on this issue.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    And there seems to be an informal contest going to see how many times one person can cram the words ‘illegal’ and ‘criminal’ [often in all caps] into each post/article.

    The grotesque ethnic generalizations are jaw-dropping, both from the naive young author and from several of the hate-mongering commenters.

    This subject brings out the worst in some people.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Dave – for you’re dumbass response in comment #21…why do you have to pretend to be so fucking ignorant any time someone disagrees with you?

    The punishment for speeding is usually a few bucks and that’s what you end up with…and in some states, you may very well have to see a magistrate before you can leave, especially if you’re not from that state. The punishment for ILLEGALLY entering this country is deportation. Why shouldn’t the punishment fit the crime? Because you need illegal aliens so you can afford not to cut your own grass?

    Why can’t local police even ask if someone is here illegally? You folks that are all for this think it would be hard for us to find these “undocumented” workers, when in fact, the ones we want to find are found every day and local law enforcement can’t do a damn thing about it! At least they’re not allowed to ask in VA!

    Get this DAVE! Point of fact, THEY’RE ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!Illegal being the key there…and no one ever said anything about putting them to death, did they???

  • daryl d

    Ray, my favorite troll is back. I would argue with you more because I know that’s what you live for. However, I have to go see my daugher. She really needs me.

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    Dave, I’ll be the first to admit I wax emotional at times, but I think rednecks cross geographical, and even racial boundaries. I’m a native Texan, and I certainly know the difference betweent a good ol’ boy and a lower class, disenfranchised white boy who blames his ownn inadequacies on “them.”. I’ve actually learned a lot from old timers, and found them to be much more liberal socially speaking than the nativists.

    But I certainly wouldn’t blame unionists on it, either. (The name Cesar Chavez comes to mind.)

    When I say “redneck”, it’s by no means locale specific. It’s just my polite term for uneducated bigots. Let me amend that– that includes people who went out of their way to learn a bit of Spanish to “teach” immigrants from Central Emerica.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    So there handyguy…you don’t like the word criminal or illegal…what’s the word for a person who breaks the law and enters this country illegally?

    I know, we’ll just call them trespassers!

    And WTF is a nativist?

  • Irene (legal immigrant)

    great article. I am a Democrat who is going Republican all the way next election. Democrats don’t keep the interests of law-abiding taxpayers in mind. Suggest all do the same. Democrats are selling us out to Hispanic lobby.

  • daryl d

    I wonder if rednecks who learn a little Spanish to “teach” ever abandon their daughers?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Wow. You continue to impress everyone with your level of maturity with comments like that, Mr. d. Did you not get over this sort of pettiness in junior high?

    Give it a rest. Or at least stick to the issue at hand. From the evidence of your article itself, you don’t have much of interest to say on the subject, but, hey, surprise us.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Andy, there are many types and levels of lawbreaking. I’m not suggesting you use another word, just that you try not to repeat your favorite two so frequently.

    You admit you don’t have the answers. I don’t claim to either. But there are more sophisticated and complete ways of describing the situation than boiling it down, over and over and over, to Illegal. Criminal. Illegal. Criminal.

    Someone trying to care for his family in the best way he can find is not the same as someone smuggling drugs or committing an armed robbery.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Hey handyguy…it’s my understanding that Dave lives in a big house…fenced property all that BS…which, the way I’ve read it, sounds like he’s living a lot better than I am…does that mean that I can sneak into his house and take up residence and just pretend like I belong there even if I only did it to better my situation? Or am I still breaking the law?

    Better yet, would Dave let me sneak into his house and take up residence, or like I suspect, would he let loose the hounds, so to speak? Or even worse yet perhaps, institute his own form of capital punishment upon me???

    Look, I feel for these people that want to come to this country and make a better life for themselves. As I said in one of my first comments, my grandfather did it, but he went through the proper channels to become a citizen! Most of our grandparents did it! And most of them did it by the rules…I said by the rules only because those other words seem to bother you…

    And so you know, I’ve lived in two different border states. When I lived in CA, I lived less than 5 miles from the border for about 4 1/2 years…I’ve been to the third world country they call Tijuanna! Probably spelled wrong, but you get the picture. I’ve seen the signs on the freeway with the family holding hands running…hell, I’ve seen the families running! And WTF’s with a border check point that’s 50 miles away from the border??? What makes it so bad is that they catch people at it too!

    But here in VA not all that long ago an…sorry gotta do it…illegal alien driving drunk killed three young girls and when he was arrested, the local authorities weren’t even allowed to ask him if he was in this country legally. What kind of BS is that? Now, if he wasn’t in this country illegally, he wouldn’t have been driving on a Virginia Beach street shitfaced and killed a few people! And he may not be a bad guy, just a guy that made a mistake, a mistake that he shoulda made in his own country!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I am a Democrat who is going Republican all the way next election.

    Then you’re no longer a Democrat. (If you ever were in the first place. It’s just about the clumsiest tactic in the book to try and make the other side look bad: “I’ve always supported Party X, but now…” And it’s been used so many times it’s laughably easy to see through.)

    Should be simple enough to find out how to change your party registration online. Off you go.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Andy. Seriously. Take a deep breath and calm down. (Sorry – I’m sounding like Zedd.)

    First of all, what does someone’s immigration status have to do with a crime they are alleged to have committed?

    Second, there are plenty of born and bred American citizens who drive around shitfaced and kill people.

    There was an incident here a few weeks ago where a guy who was wasted drove all over the city and caused four separate accidents before the police caught up with him. He injured at least three people but luckily no-one was killed.

    And another drunk driver caused a 100-vehicle freeway pile-up in fog near here a couple of weeks ago, with two fatalities.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah Doc, that probably didn’t belong in the discussion…and trust me…I’m calm…DAMMIT!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I would have added to that last comment, but I forgot to breathe and fell out of my chair…I’m alright though…like you really care!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Impressed that you’re calm. One Zedd per forum is probably enough!

    (Sorry Zeddster! ;-) )

  • chris king

    Actually Dave, you are the one who hasn’t thought things through. Daryl’s piece was not rhetoric or deceitful. It was a frank and clear statement of his experiences and resulting opinions.
    You imply he was surprised? Hardly.
    You demonstrated perfectly, the knee jerk reaction he predicted, when someone offers the plain and simple truth.
    Deceitful? Actually, your avoidance of the part of the immigration bill is the only deceit on this thread so far. What you so conveniently avoided was that the second Bush would have signed that bill, THE TOTAL ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION POPULATION is in a free pass holding pattern with no time limit until their appropriate status is determined. In other words, the hundreds of thousands of absconders, gang members, felons, and pedophiles, (you know, illegals with criminal backgrounds,) would be undeportable (by immigration violation alone) until they turned themselves in voluntarily or were caught and processed through our judicial system.
    It really tickles the hell out of me when an Open Borders Supporter claims he wants “Comprehensive Reform.” When you push him for an explanation, it’s always ends up at the same place… “path to citizenship.”
    J. Chris King

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I still wanna know if Dave will let me move into the compound…just so I can improve my situation in life…whaddaya say Dave???

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    # 33–Since this is your second attempt (or is it the third?) to discredit me in the comments section by alluding to me as some sort of errant father, and since I know you spit and sputter in attempts to deny it, I’ll merely refer people to the original article.

    I’m a writer, and as such, I put my soul over the coals for all to see, for better or worse. I don’t write merely to incite.

    Can you say the same?

  • Zedd

    Folks unless you work closely to this issue, you REALLY don’t know what you are talking about. I suspect like Daryl, you soon will.

    This is a serious issue. More serious than the war, economy, racism or anything which faces our nation.

    Oh if you only knew…. Its coming. Get ready. Say goodbye to anything that you know about America. Forget the threat of terrorism. We are about to implode!

  • Zedd

    According to the INS, from 1990 to 1999, the size of the undocumented immigrant population grew by about 350,000 people per year on average, and by as much as 500,000 people per year in the latter third of the decade. It is now by 1 million a year.

    Undocumented Hispanic children have a drop out rate of 27.3%.

    Drop out rate of all children with foreign born parents is 17%.

    Drop out rates of African Americans (N.H.)is 10.4%

    Drop out rates of White/None Hispanics 6.1%

    Asian 3.5%

    Good luck folks!

    Its not racist to sound an alarm. RING!!!!!!!!

  • Zedd

    Doc

    No offense. Funny!!!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Great article. I agree with almost everything you wrote, except this:

    “Rudy Giuliani, is picking up the pieces by taking a hard stance against illegal criminal invaders. He will certainly win the Republican nomination”

    Although it’s certainly possible that he’ll win the GOP nomination, I hardly think he’s a lock just yet. And his track record as mayor of NYC isn’t exactly that of an anti-illegal immigration crusader…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, I’ll be the first to admit I wax emotional at times, but I think rednecks cross geographical, and even racial boundaries. I’m a native Texan, and I certainly know the difference betweent a good ol’ boy and a lower class, disenfranchised white boy who blames his ownn inadequacies on “them.”. I’ve actually learned a lot from old timers, and found them to be much more liberal socially speaking than the nativists.

    It sounds like we’re more or less in agreement here, Ray. Maybe you have to live in Texas to be rational about illegal immigration. The attitude here certainly seems generally much healthier than it is in the low-immigration states or in California. Have to wonder why that is. Do we handle immigrants better, or are we just more familiar with them and know what to expect and how to deal with them?

    But I certainly wouldn’t blame unionists on it, either. (The name Cesar Chavez comes to mind.)

    I was thinking more in terms of the auto workers and heavy industry workers of the unionized midwest, who seem to be leading the charge of a lot of the nativist anti free trade crusading that goes on these days.

    When I say “redneck”, it’s by no means locale specific. It’s just my polite term for uneducated bigots. Let me amend that– that includes people who went out of their way to learn a bit of Spanish to “teach” immigrants from Central Emerica.

    In my experience the most hardcore ignorant ‘rednecks’ I ever encountered were from rural Maryland. In my 25 years in Texas I’ve never run into anyone as thoroughly ignorant of the world and just plain common sense.

    I do take offense at the term ‘redneck’, though, because I know so many rural working class people who are thoroughly decent and sensible, even if they come from the class of southerners which so many are eager to apply that term to.

    A lot of folks from the north will just apply that term as a blanket condemnation of anyone south of the mason dixon line and write them off. I think a lot of those same people are nativists and feel as negative about hispanics as a group as they do about southerners.

    This issue certainly is an intriguing one, though. It really stirs up anger and racism in places where you wouldn’t expect it.

    Dave

  • OneifbyLand-Los Angeles

    Nativists,Restrictionists,Rednecks,Racists…The La Raza,Mecha,
    and open borders marxist/socialists can throw all the names
    they want but citizens of the United States have awakened
    and now know what can no longer be denied! That Mexico is doing everything it can to create a MEXICAN NATION and SHADOW GOVERNMENT within the borders of the USA! By changing their laws to permit dual citizenship,aiding ,abetting and even encouraging its citizens to illegally emigrate to the USA ! Calling them “Heroes and Mexican citizens first just living north of the border”.Its what Calderon meant when he said
    “Wherever there is a Mexican that is Mexico”!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, I’ll be the first to admit I wax emotional at times, but I think rednecks cross geographical, and even racial boundaries. I’m a native Texan, and I certainly know the difference betweent a good ol’ boy and a lower class, disenfranchised white boy who blames his ownn inadequacies on “them.”. I’ve actually learned a lot from old timers, and found them to be much more liberal socially speaking than the nativists.

    It sounds like we’re more or less in agreement here, Ray. Maybe you have to live in Texas to be rational about illegal immigration. The attitude here certainly seems generally much healthier than it is in the low-immigration states or in California. Have to wonder why that is. Do we handle immigrants better, or are we just more familiar with them and know what to expect and how to deal with them?

    But I certainly wouldn’t blame unionists on it, either. (The name Cesar Chavez comes to mind.)

    I was thinking more in terms of the auto workers and heavy industry workers of the unionized midwest, who seem to be leading the charge of a lot of the nativist anti free trade crusading that goes on these days.

    When I say “redneck”, it’s by no means locale specific. It’s just my polite term for uneducated bigots. Let me amend that– that includes people who went out of their way to learn a bit of Spanish to “teach” immigrants from Central Emerica.

    In my experience the most hardcore ignorant ‘rednecks’ I ever encountered were from rural Maryland. In my 25 years in Texas I’ve never run into anyone as thoroughly ignorant of the world and just plain common sense.

    I do take offense at the term ‘redneck’, though, because I know so many rural working class people who are thoroughly decent and sensible, even if they come from the class of southerners which so many are eager to apply that term to.

    A lot of folks from the north will just apply that term as a blanket condemnation of anyone south of the mason dixon line and write them off. I think a lot of those same people are nativists and feel as negative about hispanics as a group as they do about southerners.

    This issue certainly is an intriguing one, though. It really stirs up anger and racism in places where you wouldn’t expect it.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    and open borders marxist/socialists can throw all the names

    Oneifby. Read some of my other writings. If I’m not the most anti-marxist person writing on this site I’ll eat my hat. Yet I’m not on the side of the nativists. Nor are many other intensely pro-American and anti-marxist writers here.

    It might be worth a moment – if you’re a thinking person – to consider why those of us who are both anti-marxist and familiar with immigration issues from living on border states actually DO NOT think that illegals are a real threat to the nation.

    Dave

  • Jim

    Some people respect their neighbors by following the rules. Other people lie, cheat and steal for personal advantage. A very tiny minority of the people who lie, cheat and steal do so for survival. None of the idiots who support the liars, cheaters and thieves do so for survival.

  • Ellen

    Hi Dave,

    This article is great and I am passing it on to many people. I felt as if I was reading my own story through your experience. I no longer intellectualize this issue. At this point, I am involved in action.

    I visited some of the Web sites associated with your M.C.H.A. link. As I clicked deeper into the links, I ran across one familiar aztlan group. They are out of Modesto, California (or, as they refer to it as, “Occupied U.S.A.). On their site I read the following chat log on their site:

    “This land is a compost. if “americans” aren’t strong enough to maintain it, it was bound to happen anyway. whites are “fiddling while their rome burns.”

    (The compost, I assume, is in reference to all the nationalities and races that live here.)

    What I found particularly disturbing was an article link contained within the M.C.H.A site. In this article were references to links to various Hispanic and aztlan groups and their anti-Semitic tirades. I tried to open one link from the aztlan Web site that was apparently so bad, my company computer did not allow me to access it – and stated why: “Access Denied. Site contains Hate/Violence.” Enough said. I will leave the investigation to others who want to prove me wrong. They can find this information through your link if they look. I want no part of this horror. As the niece of a man who was in a concentration camp (member of the Polish resistance) I know that racism is racism – no matter how you justify it.

    And it is this justification on the part of militant Hispanics that seems to be growing larger every day. I believe it is based on a 400 year old revenge mentality from the Spanish Conquistadors and is ingrained in their culture. I lived in Mexico and it is full of huge murals of the Spanish slaughtering the indigenous people. It’s like this weird reminder of the past that must constantly piss people off. It is also the idea that America was stolen from them and they must reclaim it.

    Americans don’t believe that in the United States people will harbor violent grudges like this when they live here. Yet, in other parts of the world – such as the Middle East – that’s standard behavior. Why do we think Hispanics or any other culture would abandon those old grudges when they come to America? It shows how arrogant and naive we are, as well.

    The atzlan bunch uses the indigenous people argument as justification for their revenge – the idea that all Hispanics have 80% pure Mestizo blood running in their veins. There would have to be pretty extensive DNA tests and genealogy to prove that only 20% of that is Spanish blood (Western European). Maybe some do, but not all Hispanics. History just doesn’t prove that to be true. The Spanish did a pretty horrendous job of depopulating the natives, as was done here to the Indigenous populations.

    Raza is comfortable believing that all whites come from one place on the planet and share this ingrained, historical racism. I’m incredibly tired of this uneducated and baseless accusation. There are huge, diverse cultures among whites. I’m also tired of the idea that no other American except whites are racists. A Hispanic guy from Southern California recently explained his view of African Americans to me. I won’t repeat the word he used against them. I got angry. He said to me, “When you go to school down there, you fight them. All Hispanics hate them. It’s war.” Does that make him a tolerant person? Should I just call him a “meanie” because he said that? Should I dismiss it because of his perceived oppressed circumstances? Hardly.

    Yet, it is the broad painting of the white culture by the Hispanic militants that to me, is the hallmark of racism. Racists use whatever they can to fuel their cause and history be damned. Hitler did it, Pol Pot did it, and Stalin did it. The La Raza bunch may truly believe that all whites were settlers who crucified the Indians but that’s horse crap. It’s historical nonsense as well.

    I won’t argue the ugly parts of American history, but I am intelligent enough to educate myself on the countless examples of exceptions to the rule. Geeze, America was a penal colony before Australia and before the Western African tribes opened its interior to the British slave merchants. Many historians believe that had Africa not done this, the Irish and Scots would have been used as slaves instead. My point is you can’t justify killing people as a race because you are mad at history. History is not today. Every day changes people.

    I also need to say that I lived in central Mexico to study Spanish. I spoke fluent Spanish. I am a blond and considered attractive. I have traveled the whole world and in my experience, no other group of people in any country left such a horrible mark in my memory as the Mexicans did. The things I experienced there still curl my blood. I was robbed twice (which continued constantly in the form of purse-snatching). I was nearly raped in an alley with by a group of Hispanic men; I was fondled on buses and on the street. I was cat-called, insulted, called names, followed, and so abused that at one point; I turned around on an early evening in the el centro of the town and screamed at these men to shut up at the top of my lungs.

    Their harassment was incessant and it was because they viewed me as a whore – because I was American, alone, and blond. Nothing more. My clothing did not suggest anything of the sort, nor did my makeup or appearance. I was a student. These men felt that it was their right to harass me. The worst part was that the women stayed perpetually, eerily, and in my mind – revengefully quiet.

    Although Mexicans may be the first to scream racism in America, in Mexico, my experience was that the culture is still frozen in patriarchy and a culture that oppresses women. Is that racism? No, but its bigotry. Was I treated in a racist manner in Mexico because I was white? You bet. Does that happen in the resort towns? I don’t know. My personal experience was in Mexico, not a rich vacation area. All I can say is that I hope this is changing because of Mexican-American women.

    Finally I have moved from being a Democrat to an Independent as a result of this issue. I never – in my wildest dreams – thought I would ever vote anything but the Democratic ticket. Yet, immigration issues have changed my mind. If the Democratic Party wants to offend 90% of its American citizen voters for 10% of the Hispanic vote, then they do not have my vote. Although I do not take stock in many polls, Gallup stated this year that 80% of all Americans are against illegal immigration. If the Democrats do not have the spine to stand up to this issue, then I doubt their ability to protect my country at all.

    Dave, I really am proud of your courage to speak up. There is no justification for racism – no group “deserves” it because of history or any other matter. Whites take a lot of beatings for racism and some of it is deserved – a lot of it is not. America is, like it or not, still the most tolerant and diverse nation in the world.

    I will never change my mind about that because I’ve been around the world and I’m a woman. Women are discriminated against by even those men who scream discrimination by others. I consider my gender the true test of tolerance in any culture.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ellen, stop complimenting me for Daryl’s load of nativist claptrap. That you buy into it is embarassing. That you blame it on me is sickening.

    The MECHA and Aztlan groups you find so frightening are a few hundred crazed university marxists who no one takes seriously except for themselves, Hugo Chavez, Moonraven and nativist nutcases. Illegals don’t even know who the fuck they are.

    Dave

  • chris king

    Nice job Ellen,
    Having worked in Mexico myself, I have observed many of the syndromes you spoke of (although I’m a male.)
    Do you see how Dave demonstrated Daryl’s original prediction? You simply share your first hand experiences and Dave goes rabid. As you can see from his last post, it didn’t take long for his true character and vulgar nature to surface. His naivety reminds me of the activist who chained himself to a tree to stop the loggers from disrupting a black bear. The next morning they found him eaten alive…..by the bear.
    J. Chris King

  • Zedd

    Am I missing something?

    The race thing with Mexican doesn’t make sense. They exist because Europeans came to this world to dominate the land of the indigenous people. They are the mixture. Without Europeans they wouldn’t exist. They are the over throw. They have taken over Mexico and tout their lighter skin to be more beautiful than the Native American more tan hue.

    Whats that all about?

    Perhaps the 27% drop out rate has something to do with that.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Chris, an amusing attempt at a misdirection, but the fact remains that I’m writing from first hand experience of immigrants in America, while Ellen is promoting her own rather strongly racist and culturally biased impression based on an experience which has nothing to do with the nature of Mexican immigrants who come into this country.

    The truth is that our nation is large enough to absorb a reasonable level of Mexican immigration. What we cannot handle is uncontrolled illegal immigration, which is what we get when we refuse to enact sensible border policies. When our only response is to demand an impossible total shutdown of the border, we both ignore the need our nation has for immigrant labor and the need which Mexicans have to come here. Trying to totally ignore powerful demographic forces like that can only lead to disaster.

    As I’ve written at length, we need a realistic border policy which controls and guides immigration so that most Mexicans come here as legal limited-term workers and a reasonable number are allowed to immigrate legally. They need to be tracked and registered and regularized, and ignorantly calling for the border to just be shut down makes none of that possible and will just result in more uncontrolled and illegal immigration.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Dave – I have to ask…wouldn’t writing in what you call first hand experience be writing AS an immigrant? I don’t think knowing a few immigrants qualifies as first hand experience. It runs along the lines of writing about racism because you know a few black folks…it doesn’t wash.

    A also have to say that your comment 57 is the first reasonable response you’ve put up here on this essay.

    I know and have worked with plenty of immigrants…there are actually thousands in the USN. The big difference I see with the ones in the military and the ones that put the roof on my house is that some actually make an attempt at assimilation…

    I remember back in the day in the USN when they basically outlawed Tagalog. I think it was because there were some that were sure they were talking bad about them in another language!

  • chris king

    Dave,
    Ellen describes her experiences in Mexico, and because you are uncomfortable hearing them, you simply dismiss them as irrevellant. Furthurmore you predictably label her views as racist and bigoted. Instead of constructively challenging her point by point, you resort to discounting her as a whole. That is your most glaring weakness. I happen to know that the issues she brought up are accurate and real.
    Liberals love to talk up the fact that the various cultures bring all their strengths to America and that diversity makes us stronger. Along with strengths come weaknesses, but hey, we can’t talk about cultural weaknesses. Not in our Politcally Correct World. Reasonable, grounded people who are willing to point them out aren’t racists, they are realists. You don’t appear to be intellectually honest enough to accept that.
    You are decietful when you say “our only response is to demand an impossible total shutdown of the border…” or “..trying to totally ignore demographic forces…” I mean, come on, you can’t possibly be that simple minded.
    You really look foolish mis-characterizing the argument like that.
    Your no different than the folks who say: “our governments doing NOTHING to secure our borders!!!” How ridiculous that is.
    Oh, and by the way Dave, our immigration policy does not revolve around the people of Mexico’s need to come here. It revolves around our need for labor.
    Gee, does that make me insensitive and ….?
    I’ll say it again: “Illegal immigration is not rocket science, it’s much more complicated than that.”
    J. Chris King

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I was trying to be nice…and still nobody answered me! I think I know hte answer though…

  • Irene (legal immigrant)

    What I meant is that my general views are consistent with those of Democrats (Pro-choice, could not care less about gay marriage either way, I am not a religious person, oppose Iraq war wholeheartedly etc etc). I am a legal immigrant, came to US 10 yrs ago, learned English while working (in under 1 year). People like much celebrated Liliana are just ridiculous – she has been here since 1998!!! and still speaks through the interpreter.. It only tells me that hey have NO DESIRE to assimilate and succeed. It is all for show. Now I work as a physician, had experienced the hurdles of immigration myself (and can tell you that process is not perfect, but the system is not “BROKEN” as some like to scream). It works just fine for a lot of people who follow the rules. The issue of illegals overrunning the country deeply upsets me because of their unreasonable demands, breaking rules, not respecting the language and laws of the country that they want to live in. That is outrageous.

  • Jerry

    “…ignorantly calling for the border to just be shut down makes none of that possible and will just result in more uncontrolled and illegal immigration”.

    Not true. Increased border security has slowed crossings notably. It is possible to effectively make the border (Canada also) very difficult to cross, and time will tell if the Bush Administration has the will to continue the push, or if success has an unintended consequence.

    I do agree with Nalle that the main threat posed by illegal immigration is not immigrants themselves, although I believe that they ARE more apt to lie, cheat, and steal (go ahead and try to counter that) than most Americans, I don’t see them as a huge threat yet. That could change in the future if certain activist groups are successful in perverting their minds.

    The main threat with illegal immigration is the fact that our government is not effectively responding to the outcry by Americans. There are too many monied interests from all political positions with a vested interest in letting this thing run out of control. The majority is angry and frightened by the apparent impotence and complacency of the government. And increasing numbers are wondering if maybe they are even complicit with those monied interests, looking out for their own self gain or to gain even more control over the populace through this issue.

    Whatever the case, the majority have little confidence in our government, or trust any proposal that they put forth, and that is why every proposal is getting shot down. The congressmaggots fear for their jobs.

  • daryl d

    Dave, you seem pretty intelligent and [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] your criticism is usually not personal. But to call this article natavist and slam everyone who agrees with me is a little low on your part. I lived, breathed and experienced the extreme hatred many of these criminal invaders live by. If they could gain something by killing you, they would…trust me. You can’t be so naive.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Daryl, I merely called you on the fact that you use the same misrepresentations of fact the nativists use, thereby creating the impression that you’re one of them.

    The ‘criminal invaders’ are a tiny portion of the immigrant population, and many of them come here legally, not illegally. In fact, the single largest source of immigrant crime is Salvadorans, a great many of whom came here legally under special quotas set up during their civil war.

    And it’s not that I’m naive, it’s that I don’t want to be foolish and make gross generalizations. Yes, there are some criminal illegals. But they are NOT the majority, and our goal should be to eliminate the criminals and let in those who want to work, which most nativists don’t want to do.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    The California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    The leadership of the Columbia Lil Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Andy:

    You’ve made some great points here. Don’t let the bastards get you down! ;-)

    Trust me: 80% of the American people agree with you. We’ll win in the end.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Zedd, your last comment is lifted almost verbatim from a widely-circulated chain e-mail which manipulates facts and statistics in a rather puerile effort to prove that California is going to hell in a handbasket.

    Since CoComment for some reason has a beef with the site I’m about to reference, I can’t provide you with a clickable link. You’ll just have to remove the spaces, copy and paste into your address bar:

    http://www.s n o p e s.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

    I’m disappointed in you.

  • Clavos

    Shouldn’t even be a surprise, Doc….

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Thus saith the ever-confident, often mistaken RJ:
    Trust me: 80% of the American people agree with you. We’ll win in the end.

    Way off the mark. Maybe 80 [or 90] percent of the most vocal and conservative Republicans agree. Even though y’all make about 99% of the noise on some issues, you make up no more than 30-35% of the population, possibly even less.

    But the main part of the issue that resonates in a big way with the majority of citizens is government benefits going to undocumented aliens. Most people were willing to go along with the Bush-McCain-Kennedy bipartisan bill that got torpedoed by know-nothings on the right. Even on the much-screamed-about ‘amnesty’ part of the bill, Republicans were opposed by just 48% to 47%, and GOP/Dems/Independents combined supported it 54% to 39%. [Pew Research poll, June 7]

    You may try to demagogue the issue all you wish [perhaps you’d like to consider yourself a junior Limbaugh in this regard], but don’t throw around figures unless you can back them up. [PollingReport.com is a good place to get multiple sources, accurate and recent.]

    The fact that you would proclaim this pathetically juvenile and obnoxious piece of very poor writing a ‘great article’ speaks for itself.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Handy, it’s always a ‘great article’ if the commenter agrees with it.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Not really, Dave. I’ve seen many very good points made in very poor English, both in the articles and the comments. I can separate wheat from chaff. Maybe that’s just the writer in me.

  • chris king

    Sorry Dave, but it’s pretty hard to take you serious when you make statements like:

    “…So criminals are criminals, right? So the next time you get pulled over for speeding it would be just fine to have you tried and sentenced to death? After all, you’re a criminal, just like a murderer or a rapist.”

    Or the way you conveniently blend immigration with illegal immigration to suit your argument, as if there was no difference.

    How about when you said: “….And it’s not that I’m naive, it’s that I don’t want to be foolish and make gross generalizations.”

    Oh, Dear God man, all you do is generalize. You have labels for every person who makes a statement that you happen to disagree with. Everyone. You are embarrassingly predictable.
    J. Chris King

  • G. Chell

    Racist or not, the article is full of crap and devoid of reality based on the results of November 6, 2007 elections in VA, KY and elsewhere. The guy is deluded like several other reporters these days.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Or the way you conveniently blend immigration with illegal immigration to suit your argument, as if there was no difference.

    Got it in one. There is NO functional difference between legal and illegal immigration. It’s just an arbitrary label we choose to stick on it and won’t be anything more unless we manage to control immigration in some meaningful way. In practice in the real world, our eagerness as a society to accept the labor and contributions of illegals while turning a blind eye to their status makes the concept of their illegality a joke and makes the laws which define them as illegal meaningless.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    I got that information from a number of sources which quote the same as I have. I am not familiar with the e-mail that you are speaking of.

    I would suggest that you do a serious research on the affects of illegal immigrants on crime.

    I had your opinion a few years back and saw those who sounded the alarm as being racist or simply insensitive, then things changed. I was exposed to the extent of the challenge that we are faced with. Doc it is huge!

    The alarm that I am sending doesn’t have to do with Hispanics but what a particular population is doing to this culture. It is a serious matter of national security. America is going to change extremely in the next 45 yrs. This population will make up more then 55% of the population. With graduation rates that are that low and generations of the uneducated, un-enculturated.

    Doc, in such a short time our landscape has changed drastically. There are jeririged trucks all over the roads with debris flying out of them constantly. Schools have declined quickly. School district that have been top in the nation are plummeting fast. Not only has crime rates gone up but the types of crimes are unsettling.

    It’s not about race and it certainly isn’t about some e-mail. This is a serious matter that we must look at bravely. It’s uncomfortable but it must be dealt with.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    As I have said before, learn from African Americans.

    Look at the criticism closely and learn from it. Don’t let your defensive stance injure your community. If this is not addressed soon, Mexican Americans will suffer. This population is dragging down Hispanic communities. The negative backlash will be felt by all Hispanics for decades to come.

    This is not about hate. People are legitimately scared. You don’t live where some of us live. Simply put, you don’t know what you are talking about.

  • chris king

    I’m sorry Dave, but you become increasingly irrelevant with every post. To say:
    “…there is no functional difference between “legal or illegal” immigration ….it’s just an arbitrary label we chose to stick on it…” simply re-confirms my criticism of your contributions to this post. Federal law is quite specific. This nation’s lack of control over illegal immigration does not deny its existence. It is our ignorance of the ramifications of illegal immigration, not our apathy that got us into this mess. The overwhelming majority of citizens have little tolerance for criminal behavior.
    On April 1, 2005, this countries Pandora’s box was opened in southern Arizona and the shocking truth discovered then, was only the tip of the iceberg.
    Your baseless attempts to minimize the immeasurable negative effects of illegal immigration are laughable at best.
    Go back over your posts. Take a close look. If you take away all the “name calling and labels, all your personal judgments and comparisons, the endless unsupported allegations,” – what’s your argument left with ?… “nada.”
    J Chris King

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Chris, Americans have a low tolerance for crimes against persons and property – crimes which harm them. They could give a rat’s ass about ‘crimes’ which get their lawn mowed, their pool built and their groceries on the shelves.

    The ‘immeasurable negative effects’ of illegal immigration are a nativist fantasy. Read up on some of the real data and you’ll be shocked – not that you’ll actually accept any of the facts that disagree with your rabid delusion. You might want to start with this article.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You don’t live where some of us live. Simply put, you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Zedd, Clavos lives in Miami. You might want to rethink that statement.

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    And like Zedd, I live in Dallas. Which makes her statement even more up for reconsideration.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I got that information from a number of sources which quote the same as I have. I am not familiar with the e-mail that you are speaking of.

    I suggest you look at the s n o p e s article I referred you to. You’ll see great sections of your comment reproduced there word for word.

    Some of the data is accurate, some of it is misrepresented and some of it is flat out false. It should all be regarded with skepticism.

    America is going to change extremely in the next 45 yrs. This population will make up more then 55% of the population. With graduation rates that are that low and generations of the uneducated, un-enculturated.

    Then for the sake of America’s future, wouldn’t money be better invested in educating these people (beginning with educating them about education), than in turning the country into a fortress?

    There are jeririged trucks all over the roads with debris flying out of them constantly.

    I know. I encounter them on the local freeways all the time. I generally change lanes and pass them at the first opportunity.

    But why do you bring it up? There are enough citizen idiots loading trucks incorrectly. Why pin the whole problem on illegal idiots?

    It’s not about race and it certainly isn’t about some e-mail. This is a serious matter that we must look at bravely. It’s uncomfortable but it must be dealt with.

    Of course it must be dealt with, but as Dave has tried to point out, it’s also a question of attitude. How do we deal with it?

    My personal feeling is that the siege mentality you and Daryl express is extremely short-sighted, and policies based on it would probably have the effect of deterring legal as well as illegal immigrants.

    It does amuse me sometimes that Americans boast to the world about how wonderful their country is, and then act all indignant and surprised when people try to come here.

  • chris king

    Dave,
    YOU REFERENCE YOUR OWN ARTICLE AS PROOF OF YOUR POSITION!!!?? YOU REALLY CRACK ME UP!!
    Let me mention this one point at this juncture. I don’t mind people coming here to work and better their lives. It’s the crime that I find so intolerable. That is my focus. I know it’s Thanksgiving so I won’t be able to study your article at length …but I will get to it.

    Why don’t you and I just debate ONE POINT TO RESOLUTION relative to illegal immigration and crime. Any specific you choose.
    J. Chris King

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Chris, the comments section limits how many links I can post. The reason I linked to my own article (OMG!) is that in that article I’ve already done the research and provided the links to address your questions. If you take a few minutes to read it and follow the links I think you’d be enlightened at least a bit on a perspective on this subject quite different from what the nativists are pushing.

    As for a single point, let’s hear your arguments in support of the theory of La Reconquista. Do you share that belief with the author of this article?

    Dave

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    It’s interesting to note that our northern border spans 5000 miles but is patrolled by fewer than 1000 border patrols. By contrast, our southern border spans 1900 miles, but is patrolled by 12,000 agents. That’s a serious discrepancy, if we’re really talking about protecting the US from terrorists infiltrating our country.

    But that’s not what we’re really talking about, is it?

  • Clavos

    “It does amuse me sometimes that Americans boast to the world about how wonderful their country is, and then act all indignant and surprised when people try to come here.”

    Quoted for Truth.

    And, the most indignant are often the most recent arrivals, like Zedd, who was not born here.

    Props, Doc.

  • Clavos

    “With graduation rates that are that low and generations of the uneducated, un-enculturated.”

    This is simply not true.

    Witness the number of schools teaching English in any city (like Miami) with a high immigrant population.

    Or, turn on any TV station in Spanish and note all the commercials for same.

    Also, check out the high numbers of foreigners in adult education classes in any city.

  • REMF

    “It does amuse me sometimes that Americans boast to the world about how wonderful their country is, and then act all indignant and surprised when people try to come here.”

    Just another double standard. Every subject has them. One of my favorite hypocritical double standards is those who condemn John Kerry’s combat record, while at the same time looking the other way regarding GW Bush’s desertion…

  • chris king

    Okay Dave, let’s take this real slow.
    1)You say your links provide answers to MY QUESTIONS? What are MY questions, Dave?

    2) You need to refrain from the typical presumptions if we are to have a meaningful debate. I’ll tell you if I am ONLY familiar with “nativists” theories and I’ll decide if I become enlightened.

    3)You don’t need to convolute our dialogue by asking my opinion of Daryl’s view. This is between you and me. My observations and opinions … and yours.

    It really can be that simple if you focus.

    Now this is very important: answer item #1.
    If you can’t, we have a problem already.

    Assuming we don’t have a problem, why don’t you tell me your take on the Reconquista Theory and I’ll respond with mine. Deal?
    J. Chris King

  • chris king

    Gee Ray, you are really on to something!

    But wait…picture this! 12 million Canadians sneaking into the US and working illegally. Mexicans living and workin’ happily in Mexico.

    Tell us Ray…..where are the majority of Border Patrolmen gonna be positioned???
    J. Chris King

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    Chris– I’m not sure whether you have a genetic defect that forces you to spew venom in every comment you post, or if you’re hopelessly xenophobic, or if you can’t grasp irony, or if your brain is wired way too tightly.

    My comment had nothing to do with Mexicans or Canadians. It had to do with a pourous border. If we’re concerned with security, we have to look at northern angles as well as southern angles. The Pacific and the Atlantic took care of the west and the east.

    Hey– here’s an idea. We could finish the job by building a monolithic moat around the southern and northern borders.

    Cut the crap, Chris. You have no solution. You only spew hate.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    REMF, #67: As much as I sympathize with your position, you remind me of my friend Anne, who directly after she’d had her first baby could not be spoken to on any other subject. You could raise the topic of, say, the political situation in Pakistan, and within ten seconds you’d find yourself talking about midnight feeds and diaper rash.

    To this day I don’t know how she did it. You’re much less subtle, though.

    Happy Thanksgiving all the same.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    Whose money are you talking about? I’ve posted how our property taxes are going up. How the free lunches are multiplying, how schools are being built for non tax payers. There are so many ESL students till its not funny. MONEY MONEY MONEY…. We ARE trying to educate these kids. We are dealing with a culture that doesn’t value education so they let their kids quit.

    Because the parents are illegal and often times uneducated, they don’t participate in their children’s education and the children end up a mess. We know that parental participation affects the children’s educational outcomes.

    There are enough citizen idiots loading trucks incorrectly. Why pin the whole problem on illegal idiots?

    Doc you are new here. You don’t see the differences in the landscape and what has caused the differences. Its significant and a great deal of the time it IS this population.

    The point is not whether or not people should come to the US. Its whether everyone has a right to come to the US and overlook the culture. I wish you knew just how much cost and effort goes into interpretive services, not to mention the major hit on our health-care system. Why do we HAVE to pay?

    Mexico has always been next to the US. Why must we subsidize this nation, when South Americans go to Mexico to work because Mexicans don’t want THAT work.

    I am not sure how I have expressed a siege mentality. I am simply sounding off and alarm for those like yourself who are obviously not as aware as some of us who live in the midst of this MAJOR overhaul to what we know America to be.

    Again, don’t forget, I am an immigrant. You assimilate and respect the culture. You don’t DEMAND an interpreter and accommodation when you are a guest in someone’s land. SIMPLE.

  • Clavos

    “I wish you knew just how much cost and effort goes into interpretive services”

    We have no need for “interpretive services” in Miami.

    Everybody speaks Spanish; no need to translate anything.

    Only about 18% of our population is non-Latin white. Most of ‘em have learned to speak Spanish to get by.

    We’re your future, Zedd.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    And, the most indignant are often the most recent arrivals, like Zedd, who was not born here.

    Clavos you bet you. My father knowing we were coming to the US started practicing American English with us a year before we came here. We would only speak English at the dinner table. We would take vacations where we spoke only English.

    I don’t come here expecting a Zulu interpreter. My dad read the driving rules and learned that THERE IS A FAST LANE. We didn’t live Soweto style in Big D. We looked around and lived like those around us.

    I know more than most that you can assimilate. You don’t need an interpreter or brochures, road signs and other HIGHLY costly ventures to accommodate YOU if you focus on learning a new language in a new land that YOU chose to go to.

    I remember my first doctor’s visit in the 70’s as a child. We were shocked at the $52 bill. Simply stunned. Having left a universal health system with doctors visits costing 5R it was paralyzing, HOWEVER, my dad PAID. We were broke, my folks just starting out like all immigrants, but WE PAID. Later my dad became a diabetic and built up all sorts of medical costs. WE PAID. He didn’t go the emergency room to stick it to the tax payers

    Again Clavos, you have to acknowledge the problems and the maladjustments in order to fix them adequately. However while you maintain your defensive stance, ignoring the ENORMOUS problems you are sacrificing the future of this nation and your people. Wake up. This is not about hating anyone. We are scared. You don’t see this problem because you live in Miami where this population blends easily and may not be as noticeable. I wish that you would live here.

    As for your comments about drop out rates… You keep using the word immigrant.. I am talking about MEXICAN ILLEGAL ALIENS. Does that help. I know immigrants do well in school. I am one. Asians and Africans are your best students. I am talking about MEXICAN illegals.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    We’re your future, Zedd.

    That is THE problem. That is rude, ungrateful and you need to be booted out of this country. How dare you come here and have such an arrogant attitude. You came here because you like THIS country. If you want to live like a dad-gum Mexican go back to Mexico.

    This is a place for everyone not just Mexicans. Mexicans should not consider themselves OUR future. If we wanted to move to Mexico would would have.

  • chris king

    Actually Ray, all of the above. Thanks for noticing.
    But since you’re still confused, this thread is about illegal immigration. Oops, there I go spewing hate again. Ray, why does clarification appear to be hate for you?
    J. Chris King

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    1)You say your links provide answers to MY QUESTIONS? What are MY questions, Dave?

    It’s hard to tell since you seem to mostly just post personal attacks on anyone who favors rational immigration reform.

    However, based on your first comment here, one question you OUGHT to be asking is where to find a copy of the last version of the immigration reform bill and actually read it, since you seem to have some very odd ideas about what it included and didn’t include.

    This is between you and me. My observations and opinions … and yours.

    Mine have been widely published. Yours remain a mystery, except that you like to lash out at anyone who doesn’t want to have all illegals taken out and shot.

    Assuming we don’t have a problem, why don’t you tell me your take on the Reconquista Theory and I’ll respond with mine. Deal?

    Clearly we DO have a problem, or at least you do. A bigass chip on your shoulder.

    As for La Reconquista, I think it’s a bit of self-serving propaganda made up by a small group of activists which equally opportunistic nativists have picked up on and blown way out of proportion to stir up fear and resentment.

    What’s your take on it?

    Dave

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    80% might have been just a bit hyperbolic, but…

    Cite:

    “Would you like to see the number of illegal immigrants currently in this country increased, decreased, or remain the same?”

    From October of this year:

    Decreased 69%
    Increased 7%
    Same 22%
    Dunno 2%

    “Do you think state governments should or should not issue driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants?”

    Should 23%
    Should not 76%
    Dunno 1%

    “When state or local police forces encounter illegal immigrants who have not broken any state or local laws, do you think the police should or should not arrest those people and turn them over to the federal government?”

    Should 55%
    Should not 43%
    Dunno 1%

    “Do you think people who cannot read or write English should be permitted to vote, or not?”

    Permitted 45%
    Not permitted 55%
    Dunno 1%

    So…please feel free to keep living in your fantasy land where a majority of Americans (or even a plurality) support illegal immigration and/or amnesty for illegal immigrants…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    RJ not one of those questions offered people the option of turning those illegals into legal immigrants. If that was one of the options the results might have been quite different.

    Dave

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Cite:

    Scott Rasmussen’s first law of politics is that America’s politicians aren’t nearly as important as they think they are. That law was clearly demonstrated earlier today when the United States Senate finally surrendered to the American people on immigration. Politicians may make things messy for a while, but over the long haul it is the American people who determine the nation’s fundamental policies.

    The final Rasmussen Reports national telephone poll before the vote found that just 22% of Americans supported the legislation. No amount of Presidential persuasion, Senate logrolling, and procedural tricks was able to overcome that solid bi-partisan lack of public support (although it’s breathtaking to consider how close a determined leadership could come to passing such an unpopular bill).

    The real mystery in all of this is why the Senators and their cheerleaders didn’t anticipate the public response. Perhaps they fell in love with their own rhetoric and forgot how it might sound to others.

    Near the end of the debate, supporters of the doomed legislation often stated that the status quo is unacceptable. Most Americans would agree on that point. In fact, they might even hold that feeling more strongly than the Grand Bargainers of the Senate–72% of American voters believe it’s Very Important to reduce illegal immigration and enforce the borders. But controlling the border was never a focal point of the Senate debate. Instead, the Senators spent most of the time debating the fine points of various approaches to legalizing those who are here illegally. For voters, those topics were definitely a second-or-third tier aspect of the issue.

    Because the Senators and the White House never showed much enthusiasm for reducing illegal immigration, only 16% believed the Senate bill would accomplish that goal. Forty-one percent (41%) thought passage of the legislation would actually lead to more illegal immigration. In other words, even though voters consider the status quo unacceptable, they had every confidence that Congress could make a bad situation worse.

    It is impossible to overstate the significance of this basic fact. Outside of 46 Senators, hardly anybody thought the legislation would work. That’s why it was defeated.

  • Bigjer

    Read the history books and find out that there were two Presidents that cleared the country of illegals.
    One was Hoover and the other was Eisenhower….

    This was in the days when actions spoke much louder, than mere words.

    Thompson has his immigration plan and his Social Security plans and his Health care plans all laid out for the World to read….

    A southern gent who would do as he says….!!!

    There are at least 6 plans to have illegals self-deport, and would only take less than six months, if the DEMOCRATIC Congress wanted to have it done….
    but there is way to much money to be made by not ridding the country of illegals..
    Why do you suppose they are still here….dont be foolish and get your heads out of your butts and vote out the DEMO congress and you will see some action….

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Clavos – You mean to tell me that in my own country I have to learn a second language to get by if I want to live in southern FL???

    Does that even sound close to right to anybody?

    And Dave – you take a lot of other peoples opinions and stretch them to the extreme. Someone mentions that crossing the border illegally is illegal and you toss out the death penalty for everything…WTF? I don’t see anybody in here talking about shutting down the borders, we’re talking about reasonable border regulation. Not people crawling through the desert to cut your grass! Or build YOUR pool.

    The guy who cuts my grass was born and raised right here in Hampton Roads and he doesn’t cost any more than someone I couldn’t communicate with because I don’t speak a second or third language well enough to do anything but order drinks and ask where the bathroom is.

    Reasonable border security and accountability for EVERYONE that comes into this country is NOT nativist or naive!

  • Clavos

    “Clavos – You mean to tell me that in my own country I have to learn a second language to get by if I want to live in southern FL???”

    A local joke about Miami says that one of its best characteristics is its close proximity to the USA.

    Jokes aside, of course you don’t have to learn a second language to live here, Andy.

    However, Anglos now comprise less than 20% of the total population of Miami-Dade county, while African Americans are around 12% (there are a lot of foreign-born Blacks, including Latinos and Africans), so you WILL occasionally feel as if you’re living in a foreign country in terms of being in a crowd and not hearing English spoken unless someone directly addresses you, or in the lack of Anglo white faces you will see at a restaurant or in a movie theater, sporting event, etc.

    Though Latinos dominate the foreign population, there are people from almost every nation in the world here (51% of the population is foreign born), so you will hear a polyglot of languages, not just Spanish. Almost everyone does speak English, but will usually assume you speak their language when first addressing you on the street or in a public place. A simple affirmation that you don’t speak Spanish/Creole/Portuguese/French/Russian/Croatian or whatever will almost always get you English, however broken it might be.

    On the upside, we have an incredible array of fine restaurants featuring every cuisine imaginable, dozens of widely varied festivals and events, and the city is a vibrant, colorful mixture of sights, sounds, languages, and even smells from all over the world.

    One thing you will not find much of in Miami is racial discrimination or prejudice.

    But, the one thing it ain’t any more is American, though Americans certainly do live here.

    Personally, I like it that way. It’s a far more interesting place to live than say, Kansas City, or Butte, or Little Rock.

  • chris king

    Awww Dave, you continue to disappoint me.
    First you tell me I had questions. So I ask: what questions are you talking about? Then you realize that I never did have any questions. But no, you couldn’t simply admit that. That would have taken integrity. That is our first problem.

    Then you tell me what I OUGHT to be asking you. Healthy people don’t debate like that. That violated my second condition with you – that you needed to stop making presumptions for me. There’s our second problem.

    I also insisted you remained focused on our one subject for debate. La Reconquista. But could you do that? Nope. You brought up the Immigration Reform bill. Had to convolute it, didn’t you. Third problem.
    OH BUT WAIT THERE’S MORE!! You had to assume I didn’t read it! MORE PRESUMPTIONS!!

    You couldn’t even FOR ONE POST stay focused enough to carry on a meaningful debate with me. Pretty pathetic, my friend.

    You see, when I take the time to debate someone on a particular subject I look for two things: Intellectual Clarity and Moral Clarity. You are simply incapable of providing either. That makes it a huge waste of my time.

    But hey, it’s me who has a big chip on my shoulder, right? Oh yeah, Dave, you’ve got me pegged all right. Tell you what, if you want to see me spewing my venom on those damn illegals, just go to You Tube and Search for “Rumsquaddle”. You’ll see how I handle those pesky Mexicans at one of their rallies.
    In the meantime, get 29 more years of experience with illegal immigration and then maybe we’ll talk, but right now?…yer way outta yer league junior.
    J. Chris King

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    but there is way to much money to be made by not ridding the country of illegals..

    Bingo. And contrary to what Bigjer seems to believe, making money is what the US is built on.

    And Andy, I’m all for reasonable border security, I just don’t believe that border security is more important than every other issue, or that it should be approached with this retarded “seal the borders first” mentality that seems to dominate the debate on the right.

    The best and most effective way to stop mexicans from crossing the border illegally is to provide ways for them to come to this country and work legally on temporary visas. Do that and the border problem will disappear and all the ridiculous spending on fences could be spent on a reliable ID system for temporary workers so we can keep track of them and make sure they don’t stay here illegally.

    As you may recall, I was against the immigration reform bill as much as anyone, mainly because it only allowed a ridiculously low 200,000 guest worker visas per year. It actually made it easier for an illegal to become a citizen than a legal guest worker. It also makes no sense to exclude those who have demonstrated their desire to work here by coming over illegally from the pool of temporary legal workers.

    As I’ve said before, make them legal, make them temporary workers and both our labor needs and the problem of mass illegally immigration are solved. Plus it’s cheaper and more effective than the draconian measures proposed by the nativists.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    First you tell me I had questions. So I ask: what questions are you talking about? Then you realize that I never did have any questions. But no, you couldn’t simply admit that. That would have taken integrity. That is our first problem.

    Then you tell me what I OUGHT to be asking you. Healthy people don’t debate like that. That violated my second condition with you – that you needed to stop making presumptions for me. There’s our second problem.

    Oddly, neither of these is a problem for me and I don’t give a rat’s ass if you have problems. Either take a position and defend it or I can just ignore you. I’m not here to waste my time in pointless wrangling over the tedious topic of whether we’re having a discussion in the first place.

    I also insisted you remained focused on our one subject for debate. La Reconquista. But could you do that? Nope. You brought up the Immigration Reform bill. Had to convolute it, didn’t you.

    Since you have yet to state a position on that topic I figure the whole field is still open for discussion. Apparently actual discussion of the issues surrounding immigration isn’t of interest to you. You’d rather discuss the hypothetical rules for such a discussion.

    Third problem.
    OH BUT WAIT THERE’S MORE!! You had to assume I didn’t read it! MORE PRESUMPTIONS!!

    No, that’s a conclusion. Since your description of the legislation was factually incorrect it was reasonable to conclude you had not read it.

    You couldn’t even FOR ONE POST stay focused enough to carry on a meaningful debate with me. Pretty pathetic, my friend.

    Sorry, you have yet to actually give me anything to focus on. Apparently you’re too embarassed or ashamed to state your positions publicly.

    You see, when I take the time to debate someone on a particular subject I look for two things: Intellectual Clarity and Moral Clarity. You are simply incapable of providing either. That makes it a huge waste of my time.

    One would think your first concern in a debate would be establishing your own positions, not determining whether someone was qualified to debate you. You see, without actually making any statements, you aren’t even engaged in a debate.

    But hey, it’s me who has a big chip on my shoulder, right? Oh yeah, Dave, you’ve got me pegged all right. Tell you what, if you want to see me spewing my venom on those damn illegals, just go to You Tube and Search for “Rumsquaddle”. You’ll see how I handle those pesky Mexicans at one of their rallies.

    I have to admit that your video was a unique combination of the creepy and the absurd. Especially when juxtaposed with some of your other public statements on the issue found through google which make you seem quite a bit nastier, and apparently a member of the Minutemen.

    In the meantime, get 29 more years of experience with illegal immigration and then maybe we’ll talk, but right now?…yer way outta yer league junior.

    I doubt I’ll still be interested when I’m almost 80. Hell, trying to discuss it with you has already made me pretty tired of it.

    My positions are clearly stated. Respond to them if you like, or don’t. Makes no difference to me either way.

    Dave

  • http://culturesalad.blogspot.com Ray Ellis

    “Ray, why does clarification appear to be hate for you?
    J. Chris King”

    Do you even know what clarification means? I have yet to see you directly respond to anything. You repeat the same old cliches by rote, and think you’ve made a valid point. You have no point, and you’re becoming tiresome.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ray, I think he’s some sort of performance artist and we’re his victims/audience.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Florida’s public schools had the lowest overall graduation rate in the nation with 55% of students graduating, followed by Georgia, the District of Columbia, and Arizona.

    – Manhattan Institute for Policy Research

    Although Hispanic young adults from families with low and middle incomes are more likely to drop out than Hispanic youth from families with high incomes, Hispanic young adults at each income level are more likely to drop out than white and black youths at the same income levels. Comparisons of dropout rates for white and black youths at each income level show that at the middle and high income levels the dropout rates for black and white youths are comparable. However, black young adults at the low income level do not fare as well as their white peers.

    -National Center for Educatio Statistics

  • troll

    …sounds like our educational institutions are doing a poor job of meeting the needs of latinos

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    MCH – I’d tell you what you are…but CR would just delete it anyway!!!

    All you really do now is make me laugh….hope that’s the intention.

    You do know what a dead horse is…right?

  • Zedd

    troll,

    What needs? Providing schools? Free lunch? Tutoring before and after school? ESL classes? Night school? WHAT NEEDS do they have that Vietnamese, Nigerians, Chinese, Lebanese, Germans, Zimbabweans, Congolese, Laotians, Bangladeshis, Croatians, Russians, Filipinos or Rwandans don’t have? Why are they so special that tax payers SHOULD go especially out of their way for THEM especially if they are here illegally?

    Help me out here. I must be missing something.

  • Ellen

    Sorry Dave – My mistake. I wrote Daryl and apologized for using your name instead of his. Daryl certainly did not deserve my error, particularly because Dave is a liberal bigot.

    Dave, as a Democrat, I’ve met many like you in my arena. You are as bad as the right wing fanatics.

    I’m a woman, as I stated, and I’ve had discrimination from white men, Latino men, black men, Native American men, Indian men, Russian men, Jewish men, blah, blah, blah. Call me any name you want, Dave, I’ve been called better ones than you can ever come up with here. Next, you will call me gay because I talk about sexism, right?

    As long as you are a man, no matter what culture, you will ALWAYS have more rights than a woman anywhere in this world – so your arguments fly right off this girl.

    I experienced racism, sexism, bigotry – whatever you want to call it from Latino men in Mexico AND IN THE UNITED STATES. Don’t pull that crap with me, Dave. They don’t change their culture when they cross the border.

  • troll

    Zedd – I don’t know what will lower the latino drop out rate…why do you think it’s so high – ?

  • Lumpy

    Dave Nalle “liiberal bigot” – I can barely type for laughing. New heights of cluelessness.

  • daryl d

    Dave is not a liberal. He is just very misguided when it comes to this issue. I have many liberal views, but I will say that illegal immigration is such a huge emotional issue for me (since I experienced the hatred from them so much)that it is a cause I would even die for. If a war breaks out over this I would GLADLY be on the front lines for this.

    Once again, please don’t judge me until you experience what it is like to be a teacher of illegal immigrants. Seeing more swastikas (sp?) than I can ever count and watching textbooks turn into gang propaganda and graffiti drawing pads really took its toll on my “tolerance.” I just hope that people defending illegal immigrants here aren’t Black because, trust me, they HATE you.

  • Zedd

    troll,

    I think it is a cultural thing. I think that many of their parents don’t have an education that is past the 7th grade so they don’t have a value for education.

    Also statistics say that parental involvement in/with the schools is the greatest predictor of educational outcomes for kids. The parents don’t engage with the schools for various reasons.

    Also the horizon is very low for this population. For American minorities, while it has been difficult to get them caught up, they still feel as if they can reach the pinnacle. For this population, they just hope to work and live. They are not striving (for the most part) to be professionals. You don’t need an education to work construction. As long as the ma and pap operations will hire them, they will keep coming.

    The more that come the more the society will deteriorate. The greater the divide will be between the haves and have nots. They will influence the fledgling communities. Crime rates will increase and soon we will resemble a lot of 1st/3rd world nations.

    There are programs that are working HARD to get the parents to come to the schools, even going door to door. The response is very poor. Many think that the invitation is a trick (INS). Some just see the entire thing as a waist of time. There is a great deal of money that is being spent in our area to try and convince parents that they must play a role in getting their children through. There is Communities In Schools where caseworkers are actually housed in the schools where the kids are assisted with EVERYTHING including food to take home. The drop out rates keep going up. A school district in our area that was once #1 in the nation is plummeting.

    Here in Texas illegals can go to college WITH financial aid.

    Troll they are not mentally deficient. Speaking Spanish is not a mental condition. If the “Lost Boys” can leave the jungles of lord knows where to come here not even knowing what a stove is, to completing college, a young man from Matamoros should be able to finish high school.

  • troll

    when you say that it’s a cultural problem do you refer to latino immigrant culture generally or the illegal subculture – ?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry Dave – My mistake. I wrote Daryl and apologized for using your name instead of his. Daryl certainly did not deserve my error, particularly because Dave is a liberal bigot.

    Being a liberal and being a bigot are inherently incompatible. Being a leftist/socialist and a bigot or a democrat and a bigot are quite compatible, however, as you demonstrate quite aptly.

    I’m a woman, as I stated, and I’ve had discrimination from white men, Latino men, black men, Native American men, Indian men, Russian men, Jewish men, blah, blah, blah. Call me any name you want, Dave, I’ve been called better ones than you can ever come up with here. Next, you will call me gay because I talk about sexism, right?

    I haven’t called you any names yet, and if you’re gay that’s fine with me. I do think your irrational prejudice against all men goes a bit far, though. The actions of some individual men should not be taken to condemn the entire gender, just as the actions of a the few hispanics in La Raza or a the few whites in the KKK should be taken as a sign that all hispanics or whites are racists.

    Generalizations like that are intellectually dangerous and will just get you in trouble.

    As long as you are a man, no matter what culture, you will ALWAYS have more rights than a woman anywhere in this world – so your arguments fly right off this girl.

    Most civilized nations have strict laws guaranteeing equal rights based on gender. So long as those laws are enforced I don’t see how this statement is true. I think you’re confusing rights with opportunities or something like that.

    I experienced racism, sexism, bigotry – whatever you want to call it from Latino men in Mexico AND IN THE UNITED STATES. Don’t pull that crap with me, Dave. They don’t change their culture when they cross the border.

    Lots of people are culturally conditioned to behave in negative ways. That doesn’t mean that they should be discriminated against, even though their negative behavior may have to be curtailed legally.

    Dave

  • alessandro

    “12 million Canadians sneaking into the US and working illegally”

    Man, that’s almost half the population of Canada! That would be scary. We breed like jaglava ants! Be afraid…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    (One of my citations was deleted for some reason, so I’ll post it again…)

    Cite:

    In June, the United States Senate kept fighting for more than a month before surrendering to public opinion on the topic of immigration. Having been burned once, the Senators were much quicker to capitulate when the Dream Act, a more limited immigration proposal, was brought up for a vote last Wednesday. The measure failed to generate enough support to even begin a formal debate.

    That’s fine with most voters.

    A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that only 22% of voters support the proposal introduced by Senator Dick Durbin (D-IL). The Dream Act would have given legal status to children of illegal aliens who complete two years of college or military service. That low level of support is very similar to support for the “comprehensive” reform measure that failed in June.

    Fifty-nine percent (59%) of all voters oppose the Dream Act concept. Republicans oppose it by a 5-to-1 margin and unaffiliateds are opposed by a 3-to-1 margin. Democrats are a bit more evenly divided—49% opposed and 31% in favor—but Nancy Pelosi’s party certainly doesn’t provide a base of support for the Dream Act.

    Fueling opposition is a concern that passage of the bill would encourage more illegal immigration in the future. The view is held by 68% of the nation’s voters. The Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that just 15% disagree and 17% are not sure. Seventy-six percent (76%) of Republicans, 76% of unaffiliated voters, and 55% of Democrats believe that passage of the Dream Act would encourage more illegal immigration in the future.

    The Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey also found that just 16% of voters believe that the children of illegal immigrants should qualify for in-state tuition rates at colleges and universities. Seventy-one percent (71%) disagree.

    Throughout 2007, one of the biggest gaps between official Washington and the general public has been found on the issue of immigration. That gap was on full display in discussion of the Dream Act. Advocates of the legislation—like advocates of “comprehensive” reform in June—focused primarily on concerns of the illegal immigrants and finding ways to legalize their status.

    However, surveys have repeatedly shown that when voters think of immigration reform, they think first and foremost about gaining control of the nation’s borders. Seventy-two percent (72%) say it is Very Important for “the government to improve its enforcement of the borders and reduce illegal immigration.” Only 29% of voters take Durbin’s perspective and say it is Very Important for “the government to legalize the status of illegal aliens already in the United States.”

    Since the federal government failed to act on immigration reform, state and local governments have taken matters into their own hands. Tough enforcement procedures enacted by Missouri Governor Mel Blunt have found strong voter support. A similar response was found in Arizona where the Maricopa Sherriff’s Office has taken strong steps to find and deport illegal aliens. North Carolina voters also have a strong preference for enforcing the border.

  • Zedd

    troll,

    I mean a sub culture of those who come here as illegal aliens from Mexico. It was be ridiculous to make this be about Hispanics. It appears that you are trying to veer this into an issue about racism and discrimination. Can we focus?

    It doesn’t appear that that mentality about education was created once they crossed the boarder. As I said, a large portion of them have an education less than 7th grade. Some are from rural areas where they have worked on the land and education was not needed. Some are from ghettos where education was not valued.

    This is Mexico’s problem, not my wallets problem. Hold them accountable for developing a meaningful education system that penalizes dropping out and we won’t have to worry about illegals crossing the boarder.

    In the meantime, build those walls.

  • troll

    not trying to steer – just making sure you weren’t going off on some ‘ridiculous’ path

    historically children of poorly educated immigrants have gone in for education big time…why are the illegals different – ?

    do you think it possible that if the parents were legalized and enabled to interact with the schools openly the result might change

    porqué fronteras – ?

  • http://www.equal-opportunity-immigration.org James Driscoll

    All the Republican candidates and virtually everyone else is overlooking an easy and obvious solution to US immigration problems: apply to prospective citizens (immigrants) current interpretations of 14th Amendment protections against discrimination and guarantees of equal treatment before the law. To give a huge advantage to Mexican and Central American illegals over immigrants from Asia, Africa, Europe et al by strict enforcement of entry by air and lax enforcement of entry by land discriminates against Asians et al and in favor of Mexicans and some other Hispanics. Mexico with 2% of the world’s population gets more than 50% of our total immigrants. Is this fair, is this equal opportunity?–obviously not. Once we accept the principle that US immigration cannot be discriminatory and no race or nationality can get preference over others, it will be necessary to stop illegal immigration just as it is necessary to stop discrimination in schools, etc. What fun it would be to watch Hillary and Obama try to defend immigration policies that clearly discriminate against African and Asian immigrants in favor of Hispanics. Pity no one asks them why they support defacto immigration discrimination.

    To learn more about the anti immigration discrimination strategy for fighting illegal immigration visit Equal Opportunity Immigration and see my article below:

    FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE
    End immigration discrimination
    James P. Driscoll Thursday, June 28, 2007

    U.S. immigration practices are biased. We maintain a double standard that gives immigrants who enter illegally better opportunities than those who obey our laws. Legal immigration requires complex bureaucratic procedures and long waits, with no guarantee of success at the end. Illegal immigration merely involves crossing the porous U.S. border without getting caught.

    We impose tight security on all who enter through our airports. Security along U.S. land borders, however, remains notoriously lax. Mexicans and Central Americans can readily slip across our southern border and millions have. But for most Asians and Africans, the only practical option is legal entry by air. Lax land enforcement opens broad immigration channels for Latin Americans that are inaccessible to Asians and Africans.

    Asians and Africans have a more urgent need to immigrate because of noneconomic pressures than Latin Americans, whose homelands are comparatively wealthier, freer and less populated. For example, 5 million Burmese have fled their country’s oppressive regime to live in abject poverty as despised aliens in neighboring countries such as Thailand. Many speak English and would like to immigrate here, but biased U.S. immigration policy practices do not give them a fair chance. The same story holds for tens of millions of other Asians and Africans facing political, religious and ethnic persecution. We admit few of them as legal immigrants; instead, we leave our back door ajar for multitudes of illegal immigrants seeking not freedom but only higher wages.

    The U.S. record of discrimination against Asian and African immigrants is long and shameful. In the 19th century, Chinese were brought in to build our railroads and then shot and buried in mass graves. For decades the Chinese Exclusion and the National Origins acts deemed Asian immigrants “racially undesirable” and severely restricted their numbers, while imposing no limits on Latin Americans.

    With African immigrants, our record is appalling. Millions were forcibly transported here to toil as plantation slaves. Early in the 20th century, we enacted a quota system that virtually barred Africans and favored Northern Europeans. After 1965, as demand for cheap labor rose, we replaced the quotas with policies and practices that favor Latin Americans. Today, eager for low cost labor and tacitly preferring illegal browns to legal blacks, we still decline to give African workers an equal opportunity to immigrate.

    To favor people who enter by breaking our laws over people who aspire to become law-abiding U.S. citizens is manifest folly. To discriminate against Asian and African immigrants by favoring Latinos is racist and a betrayal of America’s unifying values.

    Immigration discrimination is wrong: It should be illegal. Equal protection of the law, which bans racial, religious, and ethnic discrimination, ought to apply to those seeking a legal path to citizenship, not just current citizens. Equal protection of the law is not a quirk of the Constitution; it is a self-evident human right. Congress and the courts have a moral obligation to end government practices that foster de facto racial, religious and ethnic discrimination. To be just and fair to all, and safeguard against terrorism, we must secure our land borders as diligently as we secure entry by air.

    Notwithstanding, the contribution of immigrants to America’s creativity and economic growth is undeniable, as is the need for more selective legal immigration. Once America’s immigration challenges are honestly assessed, we can recognize the necessary reforms: 1) increase legal immigration and give it flexibility to respond to our economy’s changing needs; 2) select immigrants by ability to contribute and in order to relieve severe hardship and oppression; 3) minimize illegal immigration by improving land border security and curbing employment incentives; 4) give members of all races and ethnic groups equal opportunity to become American citizens.

    If Congress and the president are serious about immigration reform, ending immigration discrimination should top their reform agendas. Far from being genuine reforms, the current “comprehensive” proposals extend and legalize racially biased practices.

    Ending discrimination is the right and moral thing to do: that is sufficient reason to do it. It will also have crucial benefits. We will gain a more balanced selection of immigrants who will assimilate more readily and better reflect the rich variety of global culture. Such diversity will strengthen our economy and society by broadening our talent pool. Most important, America will at last realize the full meaning of “all men are created equal” by applying it to immigrants.

  • Zedd

    troll,

    I apologize for my defensive stance. Thanks for being so gracious.

    The challenge is that legal Mexicans do poorly in the same area as well. I think we may be dealing with low expectations. Much like African Americans who have lived in poverty for generations, it is difficult to create a broader world view other than that of sneakers, a fancy car, rapping or playing ball. Their world is really tiny. A billion organizations have worked hard to bring exposure to those communities and some get out hence the lowering drop out rates but the complete picture of possibility is simply not clear. It’s a culture which is forced by a “locked in” type of mindset. I believe with lower class Mexicans we are dealing with that and more. At least Blacks have something to prove and are propelled by that. Mexicans have been ignored and are not marked with “Blackness” so they have sort of just floated by under the radar. Now that their numbers are staggering, they have the attention of the country. We’ll see if the backlash will promote a push for self improvement among many of them.

    However, I don’t think that the solution for this issue is to give free citizenship to them. There are lots of great minds, hard working, exceptional individuals that we can benefit from, from all over the globe who will enhance our mix. We shouldn’t bring any and everyone in, especially if they have no intention to play by our rules, much less simply finish high school.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    However, I don’t think that the solution for this issue is to give free citizenship to them. There are lots of great minds, hard working, exceptional individuals that we can benefit from, from all over the globe who will enhance our mix.

    But we don’t need ‘great minds’ we need garbage collectors, janitors and construction workers. Which is why the real solution to the problem is a meaningful and large scale guest worker program, and all the rest including border enforcement, are meaningless without that.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “…the real solution to the problem is a meaningful and large scale guest worker program, and all the rest including border enforcement, are meaningless without that.”

    Quoted for Truth.

    They need us, we need them.

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    The only problem is that if they are legal workers then they get benifits, THEN “we” will all of a sudden not need them. We’ll have to hire the Americans that we have discarded for two decades.

    We don’t NEED them. We “need” their cheap exploitation.

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    We’ve always had garbage workers and construction workers. We just stopped wanting to pay them their due. We just like talking to them like they are children. That is the only NEED that we have. Funny how after civil rights all of a sudden we NEED helpless needy people to do jobs that have been done by helpless pliable people. There are millions of Americans who would gleefully run to be trash collectors. They would however not be cool with being talked down to like kids. Speaking to a person in half English often feels like one is talking to a young child. For SOME in our population, that fulfills some wacky need to feel superior.

  • Zedd

    We do need great minds! Boy talk about Rome sleeping. Is Bush not enough of a warning? Perhaps you are not equipped to make that judgment Dave. Sigh…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    They would however not be cool with being talked down to like kids. Speaking to a person in half English often feels like one is talking to a young child. For SOME in our population, that fulfills some wacky need to feel superior.

    Zedd, it is possible to speak to someone in broken or pidgin English without talking down to them. I do it all the time in my job. You just have to remember who you’re talking to, show some professionalism, and give them the respect you owe them as a polite human being.

  • Clavos

    Doc,

    You’re colliding with her tidy little world of generalized preconceptions.

    Shame on you; you’re not a sociologist, you’re just out there in the real world, dealing with the disadvantaged on a daily basis.

    What do you know?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Strangely enough, it was one of my sociology textbooks which best illustrated to me this valuable life rule.

    It had in it a profile of a Hispanic cop, a detective in the LAPD’s gang enforcement unit. He said that he got his best results through treating everyone with respect – gangbangers, drug dealers, molesters, abusive husbands – everyone. That didn’t mean condoning what they did but understanding where they were coming from and dealing with them on those terms – above all, not to be confrontational because that just tended to make them defensive and uncooperative.

    For instance, if he was in a Hispanic household he would deal directly with the male head, if present – even if it was the wife he actually needed to speak to. He understood that in Latino culture it’s often considered a slight to the male’s manhood if you disregard him, and can cause a lot of upset.

    Likewise, I try to bear in mind what I know about the culture of who I’m dealing with – and if I don’t know anything about it, the least I can do is treat them with kindness and professionalism.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doc – Wouldn’t it be a good thing for those people coming into this country to understand that there are a lot of americans that feel slighted or offended when people come to their country to live and don’t learn the language, don’t make the slightest effort to assimilate? Wouldn’t it have made sense for that hispanic male to know that in this country, the cops talk to the complainant, not the head of the household when a complaint is made, that way, he wouldn’t get his feelings hurt because the cop wanted to talk to his wife after he got done beating the shit out of her and not him? Isn’t it more of a slight to his manhood that he can’t communicate well enough to get a real job in this country?

    You seem to want to bend over backwards for immigrants, making them feel welcome and that’s mighty noble of you…I suspect that there are plenty of people that want people coming over here to bend over backwards to show that they WANT to become americans and not just stay “guest workers”, or illegal aliens.

    You know, I’ve been to about 35 countries in my lifetime and not once did I ever expect to find the people there speaking my language. I appreciated the hell out of it when I found it, but I never expected it. At the rate we’re going, english WILL be the second language in this country and that’s just wrong.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Wouldn’t it have made sense for that hispanic male to know that in this country, the cops talk to the complainant, not the head of the household when a complaint is made

    That may be so, Andy, but the cop was being pragmatic. He worked in gang enforcement, not immigration. He got better results with his approach, and ultimately, I would suspect, better police-community relations and more job satisfaction as well.

    You seem to want to bend over backwards for immigrants, making them feel welcome and that’s mighty noble of you

    As I’ve previously said somewhere on BC (I thought it was on this thread but apparently not, as a quick scroll up failed to find it), we don’t pull our Spanish-speaking staff off their regular jobs if a client with no English comes in. We either ask them to come back with an interpreter or we do a conference call with a phone-in translation service. But the bottom line is that if a client only speaks Spanish, they only speak Spanish. You have to be practical.

    I suspect that there are plenty of people that want people coming over here to bend over backwards to show that they WANT to become americans and not just stay “guest workers”, or illegal aliens.

    As a legal immigrant myself, I suspect that you’re right. I had an advantage in that I already spoke English and only had to learn American, which is a very closely-related language!

    But I do reserve the right to remain a legal permanent resident, and not become an American citizen. I have good reasons both to remain here indefinitely and to retain my British citizenship.

    You know, I’ve been to about 35 countries in my lifetime and not once did I ever expect to find the people there speaking my language.

    I’m glad to hear it. But you know as well as I do that the British, the Americans and other English-speaking peoples are probably the worst offenders when it comes to travelling abroad, making no attempt to learn the local language and expecting everyone to speak English.

    At the rate we’re going, english WILL be the second language in this country and that’s just wrong.

    Is it any more wrong than, say, Yakut now being the second language for some native Californians or French being the second language in Louisiana? The tide of history, you might say.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Correction to last para above: that should be Yokut, not Yakut.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I always love that part of the discussion…well…this place isn’t really yours because you stole it from the indians…or even…the french…no wait…we bought that from the french…who stole it from the indians.

    Let’s follow that logic one step further…according to some paeleantologists all humans come from africa…so…I guess we stole the US from the indians…who stole it from the africans…

    I’m not responsible for what the british and the french did 300 some years ago, or what my country’s forefathers did 150 years ago. I’m talking about today…the here and now…the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, where the current language is a bastardized version of english.

    You know what’s bad about all those countries that I’ve been too? I always managed to find more than a few people that spoke english well enough for us to have a conversation…but here in my own country, there are places I can go and not find one person that speaks it, or one that actually came here legally.

    But as is quite obvious from reading the comments here, there’s not a lot of mind changing going on here. Dave and you and a few others are convinced that illegal immigration is a good thing and no one is gonna change your minds. Yeah, cheap labor is great…but the bullshit line about these illegals doing jobs that we don’t want to do is just plain bullshit. I could stand on a street corner here in VA and take 2 dozen pictures in an hour of white guys driving landscape trucks…hell there’s even a guy around here that owns a business called “Call to Dooty”! A white guy…you know what he does for a living? He picks up dog shit! And…he speaks american while he does it!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m not responsible for what the british and the french did 300 some years ago, or what my country’s forefathers did 150 years ago.

    You’re missing my point. All I’m saying is that there’s no God-given decree that the primary language in these parts shall for all eternity be English. Times change. There really isn’t any such thing as the here and now, because by the time you’ve talked about it… it’s there and then.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah…and I guess the way you’d like to see it…if I bring it up tomorrow…I’ll have to learn to do it in espanol!

    I’m done…have a nice day!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    ¿Qué?

  • Clavos

    Dijo que ha terminado, y que tengas buen dia…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Die Zeite ändern, Herr Nageln. Jetzt sprechen wir Deutsch hier.

  • Clavos

    Tough room!!

    Doc, I can read and understand all the Romance languages and I speak them to one degree or another, but German is not in my lexicon.

    I had to cut-and-paste your #142 into an online freebie translation service, which gave me the following:

    “The time change, Mr. nailing. Now we speak German here.”

    But I get the picture, Herr Doktor.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    You are obviously not SOME in our population. I also speak respectfully to people in “half English”. I’ve had people be really disrespectful to people with accents who were highly educated because they assumed that they were ignorant. You have a different back ground than a lot of Yankees. Your English background renders you quite a bit more cosmopolitan and exposed than a lot of folks on this side of the pond. I’m sure that you would acknowledge that if we were not engaged in this particular conversation.

    Clavos,

    You know the childish unnecessary jabs reflect more negatively on you. If you’ve got a point to make about this topic do make it. But your comment was irrelevant to what I stated and to the retort that was generated by Doc.

    If you are angry at my noticing the challenges that we are faced with, that is understandable. No one likes anything that is attached to them to be criticized. I’d be defensive too. However the best thing that you can do is to at least acknowledge the problems that we are highlighting. That would make you a bigger man and a thinker AND would afford you an ear when making points about some aspects of this issue. But putting your head in the sand completely renders you impotent.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Clavos – they make a pill for that impotence thing…I’ve seen the commercials!

  • troll

    *There really isn’t any such thing as the here and now, because by the time you’ve talked about it*

    unsinn…the ‘here and now’ isn’t in the talking – it’s in the doing and we all experience it all the time (because it’s all that there is)

  • Clavos

    “Clavos – they make a pill for that impotence thing…I’ve seen the commercials!”

    I’ve never noticed them. Is that niche advertising aimed exclusively at retired swabbies? :>)

  • shelly

    I do not like that president bush is deporting all the illegal immigrants because the white, black, chinese, and whatever other culture there is here in america was once illegal to. We are the ones who took this land from the Indians and if he is going to deport them he needs to deport all of us.

  • Lisa

    Good article, Daryl. I agree with you.

    Also, I think it’s fun to watch the extremists on both left and right get upset with you. They both know that it’s the sane and middle thinking people that are going to expose them for what their party BS really is. The left is not going to defeat the right, and the right is not going to defeat the left. Society is beginning to wise up and see that extreme hard line party agendas are rarely for the better of the world, but instead, are usually for the better of some one or some group’s personal interests.

    Blah, blah, blah…they go on and on…spouting all those pre-written and canned scripts. They sound like a bunch of telemarketers that can only be gotten rid of by being hung up on.