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Illegal Human Beings on the March

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The Gathering Storm

Was May 1 America’s version of Hitler in the Rhineland?

On March 7, 1936, Hitler illegally marched into the Rhineland at the head of his then ragtag Reichsarmee (Imperial Army). The Rhineland had been permanently demilitarized by the Treaty of Versailles, which ended World War I – then known as “The Great War.”

In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, journalist-historian William Shirer told of how on March 7, instead of taking the Fuehrer and his troops prisoner, complacent French troops nearby played soccer. Although the French had heroically held off the Germans for four years during World War I, in June 1940, French troops in the Rhineland would offer at best token resistance before surrendering to the Germans, who steamrolled the entire country in a mere six weeks.

Although we eventually bailed out France, she never recovered from Hitler. You wonder if, had the French stood up to Hitler in 1936, whether they would be bending over for Moslems in 2006.

If America does not stand up to the illegal human beings in her midst, and send them back from whence they came, America will be destroyed within a generation, by which time she will exist in name only.

May Day! May Day!

May 1 was supposed to be a “Day Without Immigrants,” and yet all we heard or saw all day via the media, was “immigrants” telling us that we were without them, and that our withoutness was hurting us terribly. It didn’t hurt me or mine one bit. Had it not been for the saturation media propaganda, we wouldn’t even have known about it. (Mind you, we had no need to go to Manhattan.)

Had the illegals been serious about making us do without them, they would have slinked off into the proverbial shadows in which they live in the cliches of MSM propagandists. If only they lived in the shadows! It is American citizens – including millions of American workers who have been unemployed for so long that they long ago exhausted their benefits and no longer show up in unemployment statistics, or are chronically underemployed in part-time, low-wage jobs – who have been forced into the shadows by the motley anti-American alliance of the MSM, America’s alleged educators, communist organizers, the cheap labor lobby’s stooges in the U.S. Senate, and the traitor in the White House.

On May 1, alleged TV journalists kept saying that the “boycott” marchers were demonstrating their “power.” At the immigration-restrictionist Web site, VDARE, columnist-blogger James Fulford heard and read the media use the phrase “show of force”, though he reports that at least one outlet, the Los Angeles Times, thought better of it, and changed its photo caption from “Show of Force” to “Images of Protest.”

Fulford wrote, “It should worry you that Mexico is deploying a “show of force” in American cities, and it should also worry you that the American media doesn’t think anything of it.”

“Worry” is not the emotion I’m feeling these days.

I wonder how many American patriots, watching the celebratory May 1 TV “news” coverage of lawlessness, shot out their TV sets.

I don’t know what was more disgusting that day. Was it the millions of criminals who have impoverished millions of law-abiding, working-class Americans, flaunting their contempt for American law, and demanding that they be rewarded for their crimes?

Was it the alleged journalists who gave up all pretense to objectivity and became shameless, slobbering, illegal immigration cheerleaders? (I’m sure that pleased their own illegal nannies, cooks, gardeners and cleaning ladies.) They tried to avoid showing Mexican flags, but it was impossible! They were more successful, however, in editing out the racist America-bashers.

Was it the communist organizers egging on the illegals?

Or was it the alleged parents and alleged educators who again committed the crimes of educational neglect and contributing to the delinquency of a minor, by telling tens of thousands of students to commit truancy that day, as they had previously done in March and April?

As a legal immigrant I know said, if legal citizens (well, white or Asian legal citizens) encouraged their kids to be truant, they’d be brought up on charges.

Candy and Flowers

The New York TV news broadcasts I saw gave no time to critics of illegal – much less, legal – immigration. They let invasion advocates claim that people whose very existence on American soil is a crime, were exercising their “constitutional rights.” Alleged reporters lied, in claiming that most Americans support an illegal immigrant amnesty “under certain conditions,” as a WNBC reporter asserted.

(The WNBC reporter was probably speaking on the basis of the rigged Time magazine “poll” that moderate Democrat blogger Mickey Kaus made a mockery of.)

Neither that nor any other “journalist” I heard that day would report on the demand three weeks earlier, on CNN’s Lou Dobbs Tonight, by boycott organizer “Nativo” Lopez (whose real name is Larry), the president of the Los Angeles-based Mexican-American Political Association, for “full immediate, unconditional legalization for all persons currently in the United States.”

LOPEZ: They’ve already paid their way, Dobbs. They paid their way more than enough, than anybody can expect of them, we don’t need earned legalization, we need legalization right now of all our folks here….

DOBBS: Nativo, you’re talking about feeling the impact, you’re talking about a boycott of all illegal aliens in this country?

LOPEZ: Well first off, I refute your terminology. You don’t say kike, patty, WOP, OK, you don’t say nigger.

DOBBS: Partner, I don’t even listen to that kind of language. You pollute the air.

LOPEZ: You’re using language that’s offensive to me and offensive to my people….

DOBBS: … Let me tell you what. If you’re going to boycott the country … what do you expect the impact to be?…

LOPEZ: Basically to send a message to Congress, send a message to America, send a message to you, to appreciate the labor of immigrants in the United States, appreciate us, the same way when you lose a loved one, and you — and you try to… recoup that love of that person with flowers, with candy, because you now appreciate you’ve lost her. And that’s essentially the effect of a political message to Congress on May 1st. We won’t go to work, we won’t go to school, we won’t be buying products, we’ll be marching in the street for legalization.

Lopez also considers the notion of assimilation deeply offensive. He condemns amnesty requirements that illegals must learn the English language and American history, pay a fine and back taxes, swear an oath of allegiance to the United States of America, and renounce their allegiance to the nation of their birth. In other words, he opposes all of the duties that America has always required of all new citizens.

Lovers or Rapists?

Big Media likewise refused to report on the outrage felt by millions of American citizens at Nativo Lopez’ criminal circus.

During the Passover seder, one of the four questions the youngest boy at the table must ask is, “How is tonight different from all other nights?” And so it was with the so-called boycott. How was the strike different from all other days?

Illegal aliens made it impossible for Americans and legal immigrants to drive in the cities where the criminals marched. They refused to serve Americans, and successfully pressured American businesses whose customers are virtually all Americans, to shut their doors to them, or to refuse to make deliveries to them. In other words, they were obnoxious.

And yet, illegals now expect us to love them all the more. Well, here’s how it works in the real world. Back in 1995, I used to write in defense of “immigrants.” Since then, I have made a point of researching the reality of “immigration,” but my most dramatic lessons have come at the hands of the “immigrants” themselves. And tens of millions of Americans have learned the same lessons the same way.

On May 1, alleged reporters all repeated the illegal alien talking points asserting that illegals are essential to the U.S. economy. And yet, what contribution do they make? They don’t do jobs that “Americans won’t do”; before the illegals came, all of those jobs were either done by Americans (by American employees, or in cases such as mowing lawns, or small-scale home repair, often by American homeowners themselves), or simply not done, because employers would not pay even a subsistence wage. Is it a good thing that there are millions of people who will now work for less than subsistence wages?

An economics student will respond, “But that’s impossible. No one can work for less than a subsistence wage.”

Wrong. A law-abiding person cannot work for less than a subsistence wage, because he cannot pay his taxes, rent, medical bills, subway fare, etc., on those wages. (Unless, that is, he is virtually homeless, as I was when I worked for below-subsistence wages teaching college during much of the 1990s, had to give up my apartment, and ended up having to sleep on an army cot in my mother’s studio apartment.) But a person willing to break any number of laws can live on below-subsistence wages. A person who is in the country illegally, getting paid under the table (i.e., not paying any taxes), and living in an illegally overcrowded house (paying way below market-level rent), who illegally rides the subway without paying his fare, and who, when he gets sick, instead of going to the doctor and paying for his care, simply shows up at a hospital emergency room and freeloads off of paying Americans, can work for less than subsistence wages.

As economist Thomas Sowell has shown, illegals don’t even provide cheap lettuce.

Oddly enough, however, increasing numbers of illegal immigrants are doing quite well. The workers at IFCO Systems, the company that was raided by the feds in a propaganda op last month, were making $600-700 per week, better money than I ever made teaching college with a master’s degree.

That employers would hire illegals to even well-paying jobs is due to three factors: 1. The employers do not pay taxes or benefits for the illegals; 2. Illegals are seen as more pliable, diligent workers than Americans, especially compared to American blacks; and 3. A fashionable, socially acceptable hatred of the white American working class.

And yet, illegals do not contribute at all to “the economy.” They do better or worse for themselves – and since their mere existence in these United States is a crime, they don’t count – send billions of dollars annually to their home countries, which also does not count, and contribute to their bosses getting rich – who, because the latter are criminals, also don’t count. American businessmen-criminals, foreign illegals, and foreign economies, si. The American economy, no.

Illegal immigrants only contribute to the American economy in a parallel universe, in which what is good for Mexico and good for a lawless employer class is good for the United States.

So, what businesses were hurt by the illegal aliens’ strike? The same businesses that have made millions off the hiring of illegal aliens, or who profit indirectly from them. For instance, Home Depot indirectly profits off of the illegal aliens who loiter in front of its stores, because Home Depot’s customers use them as indentured servants. Those are the same businesses that expressed their support for the illegals’ boycott. Nowadays, self-righteous opportunists always seem in a hurry to express their impassioned support of crime and evil – while others must foot the bill.

Businesses hurt by the “boycott”? Cry me a river!

Dreams and Delusions

Unlike in 1940 France, America’s surrender will not take place over six weeks’ time. It has already been underway since circa 1970, and will require another thirty or so years to complete.

And yet, even if the invaders do win, their Reconquista will be a pyrrhic victory. Reconquistas’ revanchist wishes and dreams are synonymous with what they define among themselves as the true meaning of “bilingualism.” In this political fantasy, they assume that the whites and Asians whom they hate will remain in the states that the Reconquistas have taken over, and be forced to live as virtual slaves, with most of their income confiscated by the government and given to Hispanics. (In 1995-96, when I taught at “bilingual” Hostos Community College in The Bronx, a tenured activist professor had propaganda fliers explicitly promoting the above sense of “bilingualism” placed in our mailboxes. Reconquistas hold blacks in contempt, but know they can’t squeeze nearly as much out of them as they can out of whites. Interestingly, while blacks have for forty years looked down on Hispanics, while using them as political pawns, Hispanics presently seek to force that same subordinate role on blacks.)

It’ll never happen. For one thing, it’s economically impossible. The only way you can have lavish social welfare programs is if almost every able-bodied person is working at a well-paying, or at least decently-paying job, while very few people qualify for welfare programs. Otherwise, you end up in a vicious circle of increasing taxes, private sector de-investment and flight, a shrinking tax base, increasing illegitimacy, poverty, crime, and illiteracy, all leading to additional tax increases, leading to…

The other reason it won’t happen, is that whites and Asians will leave for states in the Northcentral and Northwest regions, which will then engage in their own immigration enforcement, the feds be damned. Thus will there be high-tax, high-crime, high-illegitimacy, low-education, predominantly brown states and predominantly white/Asian states with much lower tax rates and rates of social pathology. (Where will blacks live under the Reconquista? Beats me.) America might still exist on paper, but terms like “U.S.A.” would be meaningless, except to foreign postal services.

If we let the invaders and their Marxist and elite allies destroy America, they will ultimately turn certain states such as Texas and California into huge slums – like much of today’s Mexico and Central America – and thus expand the Third World. The American Dream will then be dead, and the Reconquista Dream will turn into just another Banana Republic nightmare.

I’m not ready to surrender, are you? In future columns, I’ll talk about what we can do to turn back the invaders.

There is still time to save America … but not much.

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About Nicholas Stix

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I see someone’s been smoking some of that famous ‘loco weed’ found in the deserts of Mexico.

    When your paranoia level reaches critical can we expect your head to explode dramatically?

    First off, the illegal immigrants aren’t part of a Marxist takeover. They aren’t even Marxists. That’s all wishful thinking from these self-appointed ‘organizers’ like Nativo Lopez. The illegals don’t share his crazy viewpoint. They’re coming here to work, not to take over the country.

    Plus, do the math. 11 million immigrants cannot POSSIBLY cause the population to double in 75 years all by themselves. The math just doesn’t work. Demographic studies have shown that the rate of birth declines very rapidly after immigrants come to this country. Your scenario would require them to average 5 or more children per couple for three generations. It just won’t happen.

    There’s so much more that’s wrongheaded here I can’t go over it all now – got to go down to Home Depot and hire some day laborers to work on my lawn. It’s been addressed already in a dozen other threads. The economic benefits of immigrant labor for EVERYONE in the country are blatantly obvious.

    Out of curiosity where do you live? The attitude you display is characteristic of the paranoid and ill-informed who live in the Northeast and Midwest. I think it’s very telling that in those states which actually have substantial numbers of illegals the misconceptions you perpetuate are generally laughed at.

    Dave

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    This is the most laughable article I’ve ever read on Blogcritics, and that includes every edition of “A Puddle of Suss.” I’m not sure which is the funniest: comparing illegal immigrants to the invasion of the Rhineland? The “destruction of America within a generation”? The idea that people who shot out their TVs on seeing coverage of the boycott were patriots? The idea that illegal immigrants have “impoverished” millions of Americans? Or perhaps the idea that…wait for it…the Reconquista movement was to be taken seriously as a threat?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Wow, Dave. So many falsehoods, so little time. But I’ll give you this — your spelling is impeccable. I envy you that.

    1. It’s not 11 million illegals, it’s 20 million. I accept Justich and Ng’s analysis. (Since you are so well-versed in the issues, I need merely mention their names, right?)

    2. Where did I say the population of the U.S. would double? And where did I say the takeover would occur solely through the immigrant birthrate ? The takeover would occur through:

    A. The amnesty of 20 million illegals;

    B. The then legal chain migration of 60 million-100 million parents, spouses, and children of the amnestied former illegals;

    C. Another baby boom of amnestied former illegals, such as the one that occurred following the 1986 amnesty, in which Hispanic women bore twice as many children per woman (4) than the average non-Hisapnic American woman (2);

    D. The illegal chain migration of millions of phony “parents” and “children” from the home country for a fee pocketed by the amnestied “American”; and

    E. A wave of as many as 60 million new illegals inspired by the most recent mass amnesty, and the realization that America has de facto surrendered her borders and thus her sovereignty.

    If the 1986 amnesty granted citizenship to three million illegals, and over twenty million invaded during the next twenty years, another mass amnesty will lead to a jailbreak situation.

    “Demographic studies have shown that the rate of birth declines very rapidly after immigrants come to this country.”

    Not for Hispanics. If you have demographic studies contradicting me, let’s see ‘em. What I’ve seen says the opposite.

    “First off, the illegal immigrants aren’t part of a Marxist takeover.”

    They aren’t Marxist, but are still part of a conscious takeover. Just ask ‘em. Or try listening to what they are already saying.

    “The economic benefits of immigrant labor for EVERYONE in the country are blatantly obvious.”

    That’s pure bluster on your part. The fact that immigrant labor does not benefit the U.S. economy has been proved in study after study by economists and statisticians. How has illegal immigrant labor benefited the Americans who lost their jobs in the meatpacking, rug-making, pallet-making, construction, and hotel and restaurant industries, just to name a few?

    “Out of curiosity where do you live? The attitude you display is characteristic of the paranoid and ill-informed who live in the Northeast and Midwest. I think it’s very telling that in those states which actually have substantial numbers of illegals the misconceptions you perpetuate are generally laughed at.”

    That’s an embarrassingly pathetic ad hominem attack, to cover the fact that you have nothing to support your position. Do your homework, and get back to me.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    You laugh too easily, Michael. But that’s hollow, forced laughter on your part.

  • http://digitalbattle.com Armin Siljkovic

    Legal or illegal, human beings will always travel to places where the possibilities of survival are the greatest.

  • Arch Conservative

    It’s not really like Hitler on the Rhineland. It’s more like HOward the Duck in which the “Dark Overlords of the Universe” wanted to take over planet earth for thier own selfish reasons.

  • licus

    Illegal human beings….lmao!!

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Armin: “Legal or illegal, human beings will always travel to places where the possibilities of survival are the greatest.”

    Actually, Armin, prior to circa 1970, they couldn’t come here in large numbers, and when they tried, during the 1950s, they were deported en masse. “Operation Wetback” deported one million Mexican illegals, which was almost all of the illegals that were here at the time. I guess you could say that their possibilities of survival here were pretty small at the time.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/blog/stix/ Nicholas Stix

    Arch Conservative: “It’s not really like Hitler on the Rhineland. It’s more like HOward the Duck in which the “Dark Overlords of the Universe” wanted to take over planet earth for thier own selfish reasons.”

    Having yet to see Howard the Duck, I’ll have to take your word for it, Arch.

  • zingzing

    you’d have to be pretty dumb to take his word on anything. of course… having read this… joke… i’ll have to give you the benefit of the doubt there. ok, ok… you need to reread your article, realize you’re very paranoid, and edit out all of the racist and/or illogical sections. thanks!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Nicholas, I’m a litle late here, but I’m sorry. I’m the son of an immigrant and now an immigrant (to Israel) myself. I see the value of immigrants and immigration – daily.

    Your counry would be worth nothing without the millions of immigrants who provided the raw energy it took to build it up. Basically, without those immigrants, there would only be Indians tribes living there, making flour from inch long maize stalks and hunting herds of buffalo and passenger pigeons. Europe would be a crowded cauldron of hate with millions of unwashed and uneducated serfs looking for any excuse to revolt and for Jews to kill in the meantime.

    American nativist whiners forget that it takes raw energy to build a nation and immigrants provide that raw energy. That you are ruled by an oppressive class system that is robbing you of lots of your money (through the gas tank and thorugh encouraging you to go into debt) is your fault. If you ween’t there would be more wealth in your country and less resentment of those seeking a better life in your country.

    There is plenty of room in your country for many more immigrants than you have now. You need to readopt the values that guided you in the past and get rid of the robbers at the top.

  • http://mensnewsdaily.com/blog/stix/ Nicholas Stix

    zingzing: “you’d have to be pretty dumb to take his word on anything. of course… having read this… joke… i’ll have to give you the benefit of the doubt there. ok, ok… you need to reread your article, realize you’re very paranoid, and edit out all of the racist and/or illogical sections. thanks!”

    There you go with the race-baiting — I knew you could do it!

    Of course you don’t take the word of someone you disagree with. You only take the word of someone with whom you agree. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your beloved prejudices!

  • Erik

    This is one of the strangest things I’ve ever read. I couldn’t tell if you were joking; the comments indicate you weren’t. Bizarre.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    American nativist whiners

    This is a great phrase, Ruvy, and a revealing one. If we’re really going to talk about “nativists” vs. “invaders,” after all, then everybody who’s not an American Indian should be deported.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Of course you don’t take the word of someone you disagree with. You only take the word of someone with whom you agree. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your beloved prejudices!

    Nicholas, Zingzing was referring to Arch Conservative, aka Bing, when he said “you’d have to be pretty dumb to take his word on anything.” If you are acquainted with Arch Conservative’s commenting style, you would never use the word “facts” in conjunction with him.

  • zingzing

    yes… i am race-bating… you…. hrm. admit it! how much of a problem do you have with all of the asian and white illegal immigrants you find in the states? hmm? how much? you seem to assume they don’t even exist.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    When you guys call me a “racist,” is that meant as a criticism or as a compliment? After all, you support racism. And yet, the tone I detect when you call ME a “racist” sounds less than loving. How can this be?

    Oh, I get it! You support certain kinds of racism. Anti-white racism. And I oppose your kind of racism. Thus, that makes me a bad “racist,” instead of the “good” sort of racist you know and love.

    And yet, I am still as confused as ever. Since most or all of you are white, you are supporting a racism designed to enslave you. What sane person supports his own enslavement? Perhaps it is because you assume that only other whites, whom you consider racially inferior to yourselves, will be enslaved.

    I don’t think I can cure you, but I would like you to acknowledge your racism.

    Next, I would like you to acknowledge that you support a nation, Mexico, that has a zero tolerance policy towards illegal immigration, while opposing immigration restriction for America.

    BTW, it is the white Mexican ruling class that makes Mexico’s immigration policy, and that pushes the millions of Mestizos north into the U.S. So, ultimately you do support some white folks, as long as they are rich and aren’t Americans.

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    The errors Dave points out rise from a (perhaps unconscious) willingness to regard “classes” of lawbreakers, rather than individual criminals. There is no “lawless employer class”, but there are certainly companies who make that choice to criminally employ illegals.

    There is no Marxist uprising of illegals, but there certainly are plenty of Mexican citizens (and other-than-Mexican) who each choose to cross our borders illegally to take advantage of the benefits of residence in the US.

    Just as the individual who chooses to pick my pocket or steal my car is a criminal who should be prosecuted (however “beneficial” the eventual outcome may appear for him or me in the short run), illegal immigrants are breakers of the law, and should be dealt with under the law. In their case, that means deportation to country of origin, whenever we catch them, and regardless of how “hard-working” they may be.

    In the case of US employers who choose to break the law, jail time and fines are already part of the consequences. (Not to mention citizen reactions such as boycotts.)

    That being said, I share the concern you express. Amnesty for the millions of illegal immigrants — whatever the conditions under which it would be granted — is a social engineering project that promises to be more extensive and expensive than Johnson’s Great Society.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I think the tone was sent by the extended Godwinism in the first section. After that, where else could the article go but the bizarre world of surreal conspiracy paranoia?

    1. It’s not 11 million illegals, it’s 20 million. I accept Justich and Ng’s analysis. (Since you are so well-versed in the issues, I need merely mention their names, right?)

    I’m familiar with the figure. Pat Buchanan and the Minutemen use it a lot. BTW, that doesn’t make it true. Every responsible source suggests a maximum of 12 million.

    2. Where did I say the population of the U.S. would double? And where did I say the takeover would occur solely through the immigrant birthrate ?

    Sorry, I picked up that insane figure from John Conlin’s article which I read at the same time. I just assumed that since it was crazy it must be in your article.

    The takeover would occur through:

    A. The amnesty of 20 million illegals;

    B. The then legal chain migration of 60 million-100 million parents, spouses, and children of the amnestied former illegals;

    That’s a consideration, I’ll give you that. But the numbers would be nowhere near what you suggest, since many immigrants already have family here, or come as families.

    C. Another baby boom of amnestied former illegals, such as the one that occurred following the 1986 amnesty, in which Hispanic women bore twice as many children per woman (4) than the average non-Hisapnic American woman (2);

    That’s not a baby boom, that’s the birth rate they have in Mexico. All immigrant groups continue to have the birth rate of their parent country during the first generation and then rapidly adjust to the typical birthrate of the native population.

    D. The illegal chain migration of millions of phony “parents” and “children” from the home country for a fee pocketed by the amnestied “American”; and

    E. A wave of as many as 60 million new illegals inspired by the most recent mass amnesty, and the realization that America has de facto surrendered her borders and thus her sovereignty.

    Any immigration reform will have to include in it border enforcement. The bill which almost passed recently included strong enforcement provisions which would control this problem substantially. Plus, a temporary guest worker program would act as a pressure valve on illegal immigration, because it would allow Mexicans to come here legally to work while retainin Mexican citizenship.

    If the 1986 amnesty granted citizenship to three million illegals, and over twenty million invaded during the next twenty years, another mass amnesty will lead to a jailbreak situation.

    That was actual amnesty, which no one is seriously discussing here, and it also included no border enforcement at all.

    “Demographic studies have shown that the rate of birth declines very rapidly after immigrants come to this country.”

    Not for Hispanics. If you have demographic studies contradicting me, let’s see ‘em. What I’ve seen says the opposite.

    Yes, but it’s clear you pick only sources that confirm to your preconceptions as demonstrated by your 20 million illegals figure.

    I know you’ll find this ironic, since you view Hispanics as being like a disease, but the Center for Disease Control has all the birth rate stats you could want. And yes, Hispanic birth rates are higher than those of whites in general, but comprable to those of all other catholic groups, including white catholics.

    “First off, the illegal immigrants aren’t part of a Marxist takeover.”

    They aren’t Marxist, but are still part of a conscious takeover. Just ask ‘em. Or try listening to what they are already saying.

    I have asked them. They mostly laugh at the idea. It’s a self-serving fantasy of the idiot spokesmen who get themselves into the public eye because of their outrageous statements. More than anything else this ‘reconquista’ is a creation of the media.

    “The economic benefits of immigrant labor for EVERYONE in the country are blatantly obvious.”

    That’s pure bluster on your part.

    If ‘bluster’ is synonymous with ‘common sense’, anyway.

    The fact that immigrant labor does not benefit the U.S. economy has been proved in study after study by economists and statisticians.

    Really? Let’s see some citations from legitimate journals.

    I can help you out. Try this article by George Borjas who gives a very balanced view of the subject.

    How has illegal immigrant labor benefited the Americans who lost their jobs in the meatpacking, rug-making, pallet-making, construction, and hotel and restaurant industries, just to name a few?

    A very, very few if any. In fact, unemployment statistics suggest none. The wagest in these industries have remained high enough to attract native workers. The impact on these jobs has been that massively overpaid unionized workers have been forced out, not that native workers willing to work at a sensible wage have lost their jobs.

    “Out of curiosity where do you live? The attitude you display is characteristic of the paranoid and ill-informed who live in the Northeast and Midwest. I think it’s very telling that in those states which actually have substantial numbers of illegals the misconceptions you perpetuate are generally laughed at.”

    That’s an embarrassingly pathetic ad hominem attack, to cover the fact that you have nothing to support your position. Do your homework, and get back to me.

    So I have to conclude that you, like Rick Santorum and the other ‘fortress america’ nutcases are from a northern state and basically have no idea at all what you’re talking about when it comes to illegal immigration.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    ha! woo… i knew you were one of them. this isn’t just about mexico, or latinos, and you can’t even pretend that you actually feel threatened, can you? what do illegal immigrants do that actually threatens your whiteness? i don’t really see anti-white racism as an issue even remotely connected to this. show me.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Nicholas, have you read David Duke’s comment on my post last week? His is comment #9. Judging by your comment #17 here, you and he no doubt have a lot in common. Maybe you can get together.

  • zingzing

    that was for nikki sixx. or whoever.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    More than anything else this ‘reconquista’ is a creation of the media.

    In fact, Dave, as you may know, in Mexico the media considers the term “reconquista” to be a humorous one.

  • zingzing

    say it really slowly, emphasizing the “kwee” and drawing out the “ssss.”

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Ruvy in Jerusalem: “Nicholas, I’m a litle late here, but I’m sorry.”

    That’s ok, Ruvy. Your apology is accepted. Join the party!

    “I’m the son of an immigrant and now an immigrant (to Israel) myself. I see the value of immigrants and immigration – daily.

    “Your counry would be worth nothing without the millions of immigrants who provided the raw energy it took to build it up.”

    Not exactly, but I would be the last to deny the value of the immigrants who built America. But those immigrants were much different than those marching in the streets and announcing their plan to take over America, and throw out all of the whites. Thw immigrants of the past loved America; the criminals marching in thge streets hate America.

    And America was built by: 1. Legal immigrants; 2. At a time when there was no welfare state; and 3. At a time when industrialization was exploding, and there was a need for workers.

    As Milton Friedman has observed, you can have open borders or you can have a welfare state, but you can’t have both. If you have both, you will soon have a bankrupt nation. You will also attract the scum of the earth. A nation that has no welfare system will at least attract a much higher quality (i.e., self-reliant) immigrant. But even in that case, there is neither the need nor the room for any substantial number of immigrants in today’s America. A few rocket scientists we could fit, but that’s about it.

    “Basically, without those immigrants, there would only be Indians tribes living there, making flour from inch long maize stalks and hunting herds of buffalo and passenger pigeons.”

    I’m glad you brought up that piece of unchallenged, multicultural pseudo-wisdom, Ruvy. The Indians are as much immigrants as anyone else. They came over from Asia, crossing the Bering land bridge during the Ice Age. So, America truly is a land of immigrants. But then, so is every other nation, too. But being “a land of immigrants” has no political or ethical ramifications whatsoever, try as some may, to project their own politics onto the phrase.

    “Europe would be a crowded cauldron of hate with millions of unwashed and uneducated serfs looking for any excuse to revolt and for Jews to kill in the meantime.”

    Well, this is a bit far afield from supporting Mexican and Central American invaders, no? America didn’t accept European Jews for humanitarian reasons anymore than it did the Irish, Germans or Italians. It had use for them. Today, it has no use for large numbers of immigrants.

    “American nativist whiners forget that it takes raw energy to build a nation and immigrants provide that raw energy.”

    Are you writing in 1840 or 2006, Ruvy? We don’t need to build a nation anymore, thus, we no longer need that “raw energy.” Been there, done that.

    Those people whom you deride as “American nativist whiners” have forgotten more history than you’ll ever learn.

    “That you are ruled by an oppressive class system that is robbing you of lots of your money (through the gas tank and thorugh encouraging you to go into debt) is your fault. If you ween’t there would be more wealth in your country and less resentment of those seeking a better life in your country.”

    Huh?

    “There is plenty of room in your country for many more immigrants than you have now.”

    Wrong.

    “You need to readopt the values that guided you in the past and get rid of the robbers at the top.”

    The values that guided us in the past were that we only permit immigrants to enter the country if they served America’s vital interests. That means saying no to further immigration.

  • zingzing

    n.s.-“those immigrants were much different than those marching in the streets and announcing their plan to take over America, and throw out all of the whites. Thw immigrants of the past loved America; the criminals marching in thge streets hate America.”

    ok. now you’ve made it pretty obvious. you are obviously paranoid and have some whacked out perception that these immigrants hate america and hate you. it’s easiest to say it this way: you are wrong.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Well, Nick, you did take my post point for point. I’ll grant you the part about the Native Americans. They, like everyone else in America, were immigrants – though they didn’t have to pass through Ellis Island and have some clerk mess their names up…

    Now let’s take up a point or two from the rest.

    RiJ: “That you are ruled by an oppressive class system that is robbing you of lots of your money (through the gas tank and thorugh encouraging you to go into debt) is your fault. If you ween’t there would be more wealth in your country and less resentment of those seeking a better life in your country.”

    NS: Huh?

    The basic fact of economic life for the last thirty three years in your nation is the fact that the oil and banking establishment has been vacuuming up every spare dollar from your economy. You guys are a lot poorer than you were thirty years ago. So there is a lot less momney to pour into small businesses to serve as an economic engine for growth. So there has been very little of it, and the economic dislocations of the ’70s and ’80s hurt a lot more becaue of that fact.

    That’s huh.

    So because of this, there is a lot less sizzle to your economy, with no spare cash for expansion and a strong sense of less opportunity.

    It is a basic fact of life that you cannot stay still. You either go forward – or fall backward. So you either grow or decline. The saqme is true for countries. Either they grow – or they defline. They stay still for a precious few moments before the realities of the world push them (in the aggregate) one way or another.

    Gotta run right now. It’s past my bed time…else I’d be up till three adding line upon line, line upon line…

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dave, I’m going to have to respond to you piecemeal. Otherwise, other readers will not be able to see through the different typefaces and statements, and I will be spending two hours on a single response, which I don’t have at the moment.

    N.S.: The fact that immigrant labor does not benefit the U.S. economy has been proved in study after study by economists and statisticians.

    D.N.: Really? Let’s see some citations from legitimate journals.

    Let me guess what counts as a “legitimate journal” in your eyes — one that is open borders and/or pc.

    D.N.: I can help you out. Try
    this article by George Borjas
    who gives a very balanced view of the subject.

    I’m glad you brought Borjas into the discussion, Dave, because he is Exhibit #1 for my position. Borjas has written study after study showing that immigration hurts Americans economically.

    ‘How can that be?’, you say.

    Easy. If you carefully read the article to which you linked, you would have seen that it hardly offers a ringing endorsement of immigration, and that it was written around 1990 or 1991. Early on, Borjas speaks of the 1990s in the future tense.

    If you were familiar with Borjas, you would know that among economists today he is the leading critic of immigration, and has been since around 1997. I’m not sure what caused him to become more critical of immigration, but he did mention in the early article you linked to immigrants’ potential health care costs. Since most immigrants do not pay for their own health care, and health care costs rise much more rapidly than the general rate of inflation, those costs become significant in a hurry. By the late 1990s, Borjas also would have had much more data to work with than he had in 1990 or 1991.

    The leading work on the costs of immigration is currently being done by:

    George Borjas
    Ed Rubenstein
    Paul Craig Roberts

    The follwing passages are from the 1990/1991 Borjas article.

    http://www.econlib.org/LIBRARY/Enc/Immigration.html

    “Large-scale immigration, therefore, may not drive down wages in particular cities. Rather, its depressing effect on wages is nationwide.

    “Striking evidence for this aggregate effect of immigration is given by the deteriorating economic conditions for native workers with less than a high school education. During the eighties the wage of native high school dropouts fell by 10 percent relative to the wage of workers with more schooling. About a third of this decline is attributable to the increase of unskilled immigrants in the work force, who went from 13 percent of the high school-dropout work force in 1980 to 26 percent by 1988. Thus, a good case can be made that immigration reduced unskilled wages in the United States by about 3 percent (one-third of 10 percent).”

    “Economic Impact of Immigration

    “Although the entry of immigrants reduces the wage of comparable native workers, it produces a slight increase in the income of U.S. natives overall. Using a well-known formula in economics, we can estimate that immigration increases the real income of natives, but only by about 0.1 percent. (This calculation is based on what is called the Harberger triangle.) That 0.1 percent increase translates to about a $5 billion a year gain from immigration for U.S. natives. [Editor’s note: the data in this section are from 1991.] Of course, not everyone benefits equally from immigration; workers with competing skills lose, while owners of land and capital gain….” (My emphasis – N.S.)

    [Borjas’ Conclusion] “Changes in immigration policy since 1965 greatly altered the number, national origin mix, and skill composition of immigrants. Importing unskilled workers helps fill menial jobs at low wages, but these immigrants also impose substantial costs, mainly by being disproportionately on welfare. Although U.S. natives benefit from immigration on net, the benefits are small.”

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Michael J. West: Of course you don’t take the word of someone you disagree with. You only take the word of someone with whom you agree. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your beloved prejudices!

    Nicholas, Zingzing was referring to Arch Conservative, aka Bing, when he said “you’d have to be pretty dumb to take his word on anything.” If you are acquainted with Arch Conservative’s commenting style, you would never use the word “facts” in conjunction with him.

    Oh.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Michael J. West: This is the most laughable article I’ve ever read on Blogcritics, and that includes every edition of “A Puddle of Suss.” I’m not sure which is the funniest: comparing illegal immigrants to the invasion of the Rhineland? The “destruction of America within a generation”? The idea that people who shot out their TVs on seeing coverage of the boycott were patriots? The idea that illegal immigrants have “impoverished” millions of Americans? Or perhaps the idea that…wait for it…the Reconquista movement was to be taken seriously as a threat?

    Now that I see you’re the same guy who told me not to take Arch Conservative seriously, I can’t possibly grant any crebility to your judgment of him. Whether or not he is to be taken seriously remains to be seen.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    zingzing: yes… i am race-bating… you…. hrm. admit it! how much of a problem do you have with all of the asian and white illegal immigrants you find in the states? hmm? how much? you seem to assume they don’t even exist.

    I am opposed to amnesty for illegal immigrants. Period. The number of illegal white immigrants is negligible. Prove otherwise, if you can.

    I am in fact less concerned about Asian illegals than about Hispanics, because the Asians tend not to exploit our hospitals, have a crime rate a tiny fraction that of Hispanic illegals, and have a higher average IQ, and thus can potentially contribute more to the economy. (Of course, in that case, they will taking jobs from educated Americans.) With that said, Asian “private” social welfare agencies are presently busy at work, propagandizing Asians to abuse social welfare programs, since the Asian agencies will minister to the Asians, and thereby become powerful and wealthy. Asian youth also have the highest average rate of gang membership of any ethnic or racial group, and thus are a long-term threat to the peace.

    But in any event, as I said, I oppose amnesty.

  • zingzing

    respond to 26 then. you seem to be calmer now.

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    This debate tends (over and over) to divert from the illegality of entering the US without going through the visa process, to discussions of how much the [illegal] immigrants benefit and help the economy, how legal immigration was the backbone of America’s growth in the 19th and 20th centuries, and how difficult it would be to find and deport all those illegal immigrants.

    Border security is more than an economic debate, in this post-9/11 world.

  • zingzing

    it’s illegal. thanks, dr. pat!

    now, what do we do?

    deport them? that’s hard.
    arrest them? hrm… jail’s already full with all the black folk.
    close the border? we like going there too…
    armed guards at the border? hmm… i think we have that…

    there’s no question that it’s illegal, dr. obvious. the question is what do we do about it, without overtaxing our resources, and without being inhumane.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    N.S.: The fact that immigrant labor does not benefit the U.S. economy has been proved in study after study by economists and statisticians.

    D.N.: Really? Let’s see some citations from legitimate journals.

    Let me guess what counts as a “legitimate journal” in your eyes — one that is open borders and/or pc.

    I’m about the least PC person on this site, and I certainly don’t support open borders, so no. I’d take a study from an appropriate government agency, major non-partisan think tank or academic journal.

    D.N.: I can help you out. Try
    this article by George Borjas who gives a very balanced view of the subject.

    I’m glad you brought Borjas into the discussion, Dave, because he is Exhibit #1 for my position. Borjas has written study after study showing that immigration hurts Americans economically.

    Did you miss the part where he concluded in the study we’ve both referenced now that ” U.S. natives benefit from immigration on net” or do you just choose to gloss over that?

    Easy. If you carefully read the article to which you linked, you would have seen that it hardly offers a ringing endorsement of immigration,

    That’s why I offered it. As I said, it’s balanced. It covers the pros and the cons pretty well and comes up with a conclusion that overall immigration is beneficial. It also comes to that conclusion from a standpoint clearly entirely from the point of view of labor and the general citizenry rather than other groups which might have an interest in the issue.

    “Large-scale immigration, therefore, may not drive down wages in particular cities. Rather, its depressing effect on wages is nationwide.”

    Now I’m glad you brought that particular statement up, because it goes to the heart of the limitations of Borjas’ take on the subject. He assumes that driving wages down is a bad thing, when in fact, in many sectors of the economy it is highly desirable. When labor, like any other commodity, is priced too high, it hurts the economy. Breaking that cycle of wage inflation which has afflicted certain industires, especially those dominated by labor unions, has been of enormous benefit to business and the economy as a whole.

    Dave

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dr. Pat: This debate tends (over and over) to divert from the illegality of entering the US without going through the visa process, to discussions of how much the [illegal] immigrants benefit and help the economy, how legal immigration was the backbone of America’s growth in the 19th and 20th centuries, and how difficult it would be to find and deport all those illegal immigrants.

    Border security is more than an economic debate, in this post-9/11 world.

    Of course you’re right, Dr. Pat, but whereas the debate should begin and end with (to paraphrase the late Sonny Bono), “They’re illegal, right?,” both the Left and for the most part the Right have contempt for U.S. immigration law, and strew the argument with red herrings about benefits and suchlike.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    there’s no question that it’s illegal, dr. obvious. the question is what do we do about it, without overtaxing our resources, and without being inhumane.

    I think we all know the answer to this already.

    1. We fine the immigrants – a suitable punishment for the crime of seeking a better life.

    2. We allow them to apply for resident status under restrictions similar to other immigrants, but structured to make sure they will be productive and integrated into society.

    3. We provide a guest worker program for those who want to come here to work but not to become citizens.

    4. We strengthen border enforcement as much as humanly possible, with a fence, high tech surveillance and as inhuman and dangerous a system of interdiction as we like. If we provide adequate legal avenues for entry then there can be NO complaints if we turn the entire border into a deathzone.

    Dave

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Ah, we’re back to the sanctity of the law. So, you never speed, right? Never jaywalk. Never make a rolling stop. Never failed to report even a penny of your income to the IRS, not even the five dollars your grandmother gave you for your birthday when you were 16. Back when the speed limit was 55 miles per hour on every freeway in the nation, you never exceeded that rate of travel, ever. Right? Uh huh. Sure.

    Shut up about obeying the law already. Most of you know damn well you’ve never cared about the law unless it favored whatever you already wanted to do.

    A rational approach to the immigration issue requires us to recognize that the law isn’t working, and restructure the law so it will meet your stated objectives. Dave’s proposal in #37 at least stands a snowball’s chance in hell of achieving the goals you all say you want. You’ll never get “increased border security” by insisting on some pie in the sky scenario where every desperate immigrant and refugee suddenly respects the sanctity of the law far more than you’ve ever done in your whole life.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Soembody just wrote me with the following additional point:

    And as Paul Nachman reported at VDARE, Nativo Lopez adamantly opposes America building a wall to keep out future invasions.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dave Nalle: there’s no question that it’s illegal, dr. obvious. the question is what do we do about it, without overtaxing our resources, and without being inhumane.

    We don’t have to worry about being “inhumane,” any more than Mxico does.

    Dave Nalle: I think we all know the answer to this already.

    1. We fine the immigrants – a suitable punishment for the crime of seeking a better life.

    2. We allow them to apply for resident status under restrictions similar to other immigrants, but structured to make sure they will be productive and integrated into society.

    3. We provide a guest worker program for those who want to come here to work but not to become citizens.

    4. We strengthen border enforcement as much as humanly possible, with a fence, high tech surveillance and as inhuman and dangerous a system of interdiction as we like. If we provide adequate legal avenues for entry then there can be NO complaints if we turn the entire border into a deathzone.

    Dave

    Ridiculous. Why on earth would we reward people for criminal behavior? A “guest worker” program is just amnesty with a phony name. The illegals know this, as does everyone else. you’re not fooling anyone. As the saying goes, “Nothing is more permanent than a guest worker.”

    And why bother building a wall, if you’re going to let all of them in legally, anyway? Is the wall supposed to be some kind of make-work program?

    1. We arrest massive numbers of employer-criminals — say 5,000 — and shut down their businesses. We fine and prosecute them for their felonies to the maximum allowed under already existing law.

    2. Private citizens initiate RICO suits against thousands more criminal-employers. RICO civil suits pay treble damages.

    3. We build a wall.

    4. We begin interior and workplace enforcement, first sweeping felon illegals. Then we build more jail space, and begin sweeps of invaders, say 5,000 at a time. No more catch-and-release, no more Executive Office of Immigration Review. They are deported, and if caught again, are prosecuted as felons, according to already existing law. We keep on doing this, until other illegals get the message and deport themselves. Otherwise, we just keep at it, until almost all of the illegals are gone.

    The beauty part is that none of the above suggestions requires that any new laws be enacted.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    “Victor Plenty: Ah, we’re back to the sanctity of the law. So, you never speed, right? Never jaywalk. Never make a rolling stop. Never failed to report even a penny of your income to the IRS, not even the five dollars your grandmother gave you for your birthday when you were 16. Back when the speed limit was 55 miles per hour on every freeway in the nation, you never exceeded that rate of travel, ever. Right? Uh huh. Sure.

    Shut up about obeying the law already. Most of you know damn well you’ve never cared about the law unless it favored whatever you already wanted to do.

    A rational approach to the immigration issue requires us to recognize that the law isn’t working, and restructure the law so it will meet your stated objectives. Dave’s proposal in #37 at least stands a snowball’s chance in hell of achieving the goals you all say you want. You’ll never get “increased border security” by insisting on some pie in the sky scenario where every desperate immigrant and refugee suddenly respects the sanctity of the law far more than you’ve ever done in your whole life.”

    Why not be consistent, Victor? Since people break laws against murder, GTA, assault, rape, embezzlment, etc., we need to abolish the laws, all of ‘em.

    Oh, but you don’t want consistency; you want certain laws to be ignored on behalf of certain people.

    There’s nothing wrong with the immigration laws; the problem is with the corrupt, feckless authorities responsible for their enforcement. When Ike was president, no one tried that line, “the law isn’t working.” He didn’t rationalize or indulge in Philadelphia lawyers; he enforced the law.

    (BTW, 16-year-olds have never been obliged to report five dollar gifts to the IRS. Nice try.)

  • Bliffle

    It doesn’t seem fair that Mexico can invade the US and the US can’t invade Mexico.

  • http://insiderealestatejournal.blogspot.com Mr. Real Estate

    I was imported from the 5th Dimension without my green card, therefore I am an illegal human being.

    Sulu quick! Turn on the Legalization Ray!

    :::::bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:::::::::

    You are now legal. Drive-Thru.

  • http://insiderealestatejournal.blogspot.com Mr. Real Estate

    Let’s make a Realtor Reimbursement Program where the IRS pays me commission on the taxes I pay them. Now that’s a plan I’ll vote for. However, I’ll never vote to give subsidies to illegals. If they want to be citizens, let them take a test and make them speak English and don’t give them welfare. Thank you, drive-thru! Welcome to Border Mart! How can I help you get freedom and welfare at the expense of Mr. Real Estate’s tax dollars?

    ::::winks:::: ;)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Ridiculous. Why on earth would we reward people for criminal behavior?

    When did a substantial fine and having to go through a lengthy process to apply for citizen-track status become a reward? Last time I paid a traffic ticket I didn’t think I’d been ‘rewarded’ – quite the opposite. Do you actually come from Bizarro Earth?

    A “guest worker” program is just amnesty with a phony name.

    You’re confusing the guest worker program with the legal immigration option provided to illegals who pay their fine, make amends for their illegal status and want to apply for citizenship.

    A true guest worker program is a limited-term visa specifically linked to employment and without any kind of track or provision for citizenship. It’s all that many of these illegal immigrants need. They don’t all want to be US citizens, believe it or not.

    And why bother building a wall, if you’re going to let all of them in legally, anyway? Is the wall supposed to be some kind of make-work program?

    No, the wall is to keep future illegals out. It’s a two-pronged approach. On the one hand you provide a way for them to work legally reducing the need to enter illegally, and at the same time you make the risk of coming in illegally high enough that they’ll look at the legal options. A third element could be working to improve the Mexican economy, but I’m sure you’re against that too.

    1. We arrest massive numbers of employer-criminals — say 5,000 — and shut down their businesses. We fine and prosecute them for their felonies to the maximum allowed under already existing law.

    Wow, there’s a fucking brilliant idea. Shut down thousands upon thousands of businesses, put hundreds of thousands of legal citizens out of work, just to get revenge on a few illegals and the people they work for. While we’re at it why don’t we trash our entire economy and turn our government tax revenues over to the government of Mexico? Ever heard the phrase ‘cutting off your nose to spite your face’?

    2. Private citizens initiate RICO suits against thousands more criminal-employers. RICO civil suits pay treble damages.

    On what basis? Who is being harmed? I don’t want to sue the contractor who’s hiring illegals. I want to pay him to build a new sunroom on the back of my house. Again, moronic.

    3. We build a wall.

    Perhaps a wailing wall.

    4. We begin interior and workplace enforcement, first sweeping felon illegals. Then we build more jail space, and begin sweeps of invaders, say 5,000 at a time. No more catch-and-release, no more Executive Office of Immigration Review. They are deported, and if caught again, are prosecuted as felons, according to already existing law. We keep on doing this, until other illegals get the message and deport themselves. Otherwise, we just keep at it, until almost all of the illegals are gone.

    Oh good, more jails to mismanage. Do you perhaps work for Wackenhut? Talk about enormous wastes of money.

    I can basically sum your strategy up in one sentence – spend as much tax money as possible to do the maximum possible damage to the US economy.

    What you’re talking about is creating a cycle of economic destruction which would devastate the nation. Why not just nuke all the border states and get it over with?

    The beauty part is that none of the above suggestions requires that any new laws be enacted.

    Hell, maybe we don’t need laws at all. Let’s just shoot the illegals and throw them in mass graves. It’s worked for Texas and Arizona ranchers for 50 years.

    Dave

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Some points in your solution, Nicholas:

    1. We arrest massive numbers of employer-criminals — say 5,000 — and shut down their businesses. We fine and prosecute them for their felonies to the maximum allowed under already existing law.

    This after all your talk about the harm illegals do to the U.S. economy? You want to repair the damage to the economy by…GUTTING the economy?

    2. Private citizens initiate RICO suits against thousands more criminal-employers. RICO civil suits pay treble damages.

    Aside from the dubiousness of filing racketeering charges, I’ve just been looking at the RICO statutes and can’t find grounds for such suits. Did you actually think that it applied in this case, or did you just pull that one out because it involved treble damages?

    3. We build a wall.

    Believe it or not, I love my country. I do not want it to become like East Germany, with a big ugly concrete wall at the border and armed guards at the top shooting anyone who comes within X feet. Yet for this wall of yours to be effective, that’s pretty much what you’re talking about, isn’t it? I can’t imagine that our solution here is to become everything we’re supposed to stand against.

    We begin interior and workplace enforcement, first sweeping felon illegals. Then we build more jail space, and begin sweeps of invaders, say 5,000 at a time. No more catch-and-release, no more Executive Office of Immigration Review. They are deported, and if caught again, are prosecuted as felons, according to already existing law. We keep on doing this, until other illegals get the message and deport themselves. Otherwise, we just keep at it, until almost all of the illegals are gone.

    The combination of “more jail space” and “sweeps of invaders 5,000 at a time”…maybe I’m completely wrong, but it sounds like you’re talking about concentration camps. Perhaps we can simply re-open the facilities we used to house the Japanese during WWII? After all, if we’re going to relive the more shameful episodes in our history we might as well use the same resources.

    And even if I’m wrong, you’re talking about billions of dollars to take care of this. As if our deficits weren’t high enough already. Principles are one thing, but don’t use the economy as a reason that the illegals need to go if you’re going to make it clear that you don’t give a damn about the health of the economy.

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Dave, nice of you to offer a reality check on the numbers quoted here. I’d also add that illegal immigrants contribute more than is generally acknowledged.

    I still think the only real solution is to crack down on employers, because you can’t build a wall tall enough to keep people out if there are jobs and a better life available.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    JP, if border security won’t work, cracking down on employers just punishes them for trying to run their businesses efficiently, which makes no sense in a capitalist system.

    The best alternative in that case is to pour all the money we would use on border defense into northern Mexico to build up industry and the economy there so that the natives will have a reason to stay there and work.

    Dave

  • Blue Meanie

    No Dave, it punishes those people for knowingly breaking the law. An important distinction for many people.

  • zingzing

    hmmm. i agree with dave. rare occurance. blue, do you really think that punishing the employers will have a positive effect on america?

    isn’t that what this is about?

    it seems like a dangerous, short-sighted answer. if the right changes are made, such an action would be possible in the future. but, right now, it’s just not feasible.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Dear Nicholas! I really have to absolutely agree with comment # 1 & 2! I was born in the Rhineland and I know the history about what happened throughout the last 500 years. It is not that easy the way you put it.
    Your article is all over and to compare the invasion of the Rhineland with the invasion of Illegal immegrants! Your article almost reminds me of “INDIANA JONES” A bit of the Nazi’s a bit of the Communists and whatever else is fitting for some story or script.
    You say you are the son of an immigrant yourself? You should be ashamed of yourself to write such an article.
    What is your suggestion–to built a wall to Mexico? One with self shooting advices like the one that existed between East and West Germany?
    There should be a different solution to solve this problem.
    Maybe you should do some research on the bigger threat to this country! China & India. And of course in your eyes it must be irrelevant that not only California used to be actually–yes, Mexico!
    Do some travelling and feel “foreigner” yourself in other countries and enjoy your life, but of course, that is just my only stupid little opinion. But I do not agree with yours.
    Oh and, since you seem to know almost everything–can you tell me how this Schwarzenschlecker Body-Builder made it, to become Governour of California?
    Don’t you agree that this is worth complaining?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Mark Bellinghaus: Do some travelling and feel “foreigner” yourself in other countries and enjoy your life, but of course, that is just my only stupid little opinion.

    Was soll’s? Glauben Sie, wenn ich ins Ausland fahren wuerde, dass ich duzu kommen wuerde, den Interessen Mexikos den Vorrang ueber die Interessen meines eigenen Landes geben wuerde?

    But I do not agree with yours.
    Oh and, since you seem to know almost everything–can you tell me how this Schwarzenschlecker Body-Builder made it, to become Governour of California?
    Don’t you agree that this is worth complaining?

    Sie behaupten, die letzten 500 Jahre Geschichte zu kennen, kennen aber nicht einmal die Geschichte Kaliforniens? Sie sollen ein Uni-Dozent sein!

    Moment mal, ich muss wieder mal Ihre Meinung zu uebersetzen versuchen. Angegeben, dass Sie weder im Deutschen noch im Englischen zu hause zu sein scheinen, ist jedwede Uebersetzenug aeusserst schwer.

    Ich glaube, Sie versuchten einen Witz zu machen. Der Witz ging etwa so: Der Stix will keine Auslaender, aber der Schwarzenegger ist ein Republikaner!!!!!!

    Obwohl Arnold Schwarzenegger ein Oesterreich-geborener Politiker ist, der gleich einem frueheren Oesterreicher im Ausland zu hohem politischen Amt gewaehlt worden ist, das Beispiel Schwarzenegger hat keine Relevanz fuer meine Stellungname. Schwarzenegger is auf legalerweise in die Vereinigten Staaten eingewandert, und war ein legaler amerikanischer Staatsbuerger. Also wurde er auf legaler Weise zum kalifornischen Ministerpraesident gewaehlt, im Gegensatz zum frueheren oesterreichischen Politiker, der kein deutscher Staatsbuerger war, und deshalb auf illegaler Weise zum deutschen Kanzler wurde.

    Also, welchen Grund hat man die Wahl Schwarzenegger zu beklagen? And warum haben Sie Schwarzenegger einen bloeden, falschen Namen gegeben? War das auch ein Witz-Versuch?

    Vielleicht sind Sie es, der mehr ins Ausland zu verreisen noetig hat.

    N.B. Die ganze arabische Welt hat einmal Israel gehoert. Heisst das, das die Israelis heute noch Anspruch auf das ganze Land haben?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    The following is from the link that JP posted.

    “The fact that illegal immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.”

    I’d love to see her source for this figure.

    “Yet nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation’s hospitals, schools and welfare programs–consuming services that they don’t pay for.”

    Because they are!

    “In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.”

    Liar! They are still getting all of the above programs.

    “Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens–even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers. Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets.”

    All lies — the bill (HR 4437) says no such thing.

    “The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid.”

    The Senate bill didn’t “temper” anything; it was an amnesty bill that gave away the farm.

    “But no one–Democrat or Republican–seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services.”

    Bourgeois!

    “But immigrants aren’t flocking to the United States to mooch off the government.”

    The hell, they aren’t!

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Arrest employers who knowingly break the law? How RUDE! (And while we’re at it, let’s issue a no harm/no foul for Ken Lay and the others from Enron…)

    Insist that people who come to the US to partake of the beneficial economy do so within the law, whether or not they aim to become US citizens, stay on a green card, or enter as guest workers? How QUAINT! (Perhaps we should consider releasing all those other persons in jail for breaking laws, on the same principal, that they were just trying to better their own economic conditions, and not to lose all the benefit extended to other businesses and persons too – fences and other underworldly types ought not to be barred from all that lovely unlawful income, right? I mean, who among us has not taken a quarter from a pay phone that rightly belongs to the phone company?)

    Moral equivalence will only take you as far as you are willing to stretch your idea of what is right and just.

  • gonzo marx

    Dr. Pat sez…
    *Moral equivalence will only take you as far as you are willing to stretch your idea of what is right and just.*

    Quoted for Truth

    this is a brutal Issue on so many fronts…

    but the baseline remains…Illegal

    i like the whole fine the employer bit, let’s add a capitalist twist to it for Fun, make the fines 2 times whatever it Costs to send the illegal employee, their Families and their Stuff, back home…plus whatever current Law requires for prosecution for back taxes etc…

    now it’s not Cost effecient to hire those Illegals anymore, less Incentive for more Illegals to keep coming…

    what yer gonna do about those already here, and properly securing our Borders and Ports is a whole ‘nother kettle o’ fish…

    nuff said…

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    I really don’t understand why you tried to write your answering comment in German–please check your translation system, if there is such, that you used!
    You are very offensive and you remind me of myself when I was attacked by cat fighters who really wanted to take my own credibility!
    That one I give you–that you are standing up for your point, but the things you say are BS!
    I did not try to make a “joke” by comparing the Schwarzenegger success and his own imigrant status to this mad toppic.
    You do not have to answer in German–you can actually save your breath. Oh–and you can not convince me. Convince yourself how ignorant you are and that you attack people who do not agree.
    Well, you don’t have to make fun of my mission and the things you found out about me. “Kehr vor Deiner eigenen Tuer!”
    Mind your own business.

    but: whatever that is supposed to mean–it is not German at all! So you should be careful with bitching at other people’s spelling.

    jedwede Uebersetzenug aeusserst ???

    Oh and–what is your opinion on the powerful countries like China and India! Are you going to built a CHINES WALL right here in the States?
    Good Luck. And WHO is going to built that freaking fence? You? Or the IMMIGRANTS?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    I really don’t understand why you tried to write your answering comment in German–please check your translation system, if there is such, that you used!

    I don’t need a system; I’m a German speaker, probably a better one than you are.

    For the benefit of those readers who do not know German, Mark Bellinghaus did something that is characteristic of the ugly German — to claim that a fluent German speaker isn’t fluent, based only on his knowledge that the other speaker wasn’t born into the German language.

    Since Bellinghaus is pc, he wouldn’t dare do that if, say, he thought I was a Turk, Arab, Hispanic or black. But since I’m politically “white,” he’ll do it.

    American academic lefties and racial supremacists have their own version of this. They reject the idea of grammar or correct usage … except when one of their opponents is writing. Then they claim — like you — that someone who not only wrote perfectly well, but better than they do, wrote poorly.

    “You are very offensive and you remind me of myself when I was attacked by cat fighters who really wanted to take my own credibility!
    That one I give you–that you are standing up for your point, but the things you say are BS!
    I did not try to make a “joke” by comparing the Schwarzenegger success and his own imigrant status to this mad toppic.”

    Then what you said about Schwazenegger makes no sense.

    “You do not have to answer in German–you can actually save your breath. Oh–and you can not convince me.”

    Of course I can’t convince you; you are not open to facts, and do not respect American sovereignty.

    “Convince yourself how ignorant you are and that you attack people who do not agree.
    Well, you don’t have to make fun of my mission and the things you found out about me. “Kehr vor Deiner eigenen Tuer!”
    Mind your own business.”

    If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    “but: whatever that is supposed to mean–it is not German at all! So you should be careful with bitching at other people’s spelling.

    jedwede Uebersetzenug aeusserst ???”

    Of course it is German.

    “Oh and–what is your opinion on the powerful countries like China and India! Are you going to built a CHINES WALL right here in the States?”

    Huh?

    “Good Luck. And WHO is going to built that freaking fence? You? Or the IMMIGRANTS?”

    Neither. But Americans will build it, rest assured.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Nick,

    Róv ha-zmán k’sh’aní kotév másh’hu b’safá zará, ani m’targém et ma sh’katávti l’anglít, l’ma’an hadovréi anglít sh’ló meviním et ha safá zará aHéret.

    Usaually, when I write in a foreign language, I translate what I’ve written for the benefit of the English speakers who do not understand.

    Would you kindly translate the gist of your remarks in comment #52 to Mark Bellinghaus for those of us not fully fluent in German? If you’re going to whine about foreigners taking over your country, at least use English.

  • Bliffle

    Well, here in the SF Bay Area, the big illegal sitdown strike seems to have passed with barely any effect on ordinary people. Lots of press and TV blather, though. If I hadn’t known it was happening I wouldn’t have noticed at all. What a flop. But a few days later on 5th May, which seems to be an important date for both US and Mexican drunkards, hiway 280 was tied up with errant motorists and a couple people were shot. I guess THAT is some kind of success.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    No Dave, it punishes those people for knowingly breaking the law. An important distinction for many people.

    In a lot of cases the choice the employers face is similar to that faced by the illegals. They can either hire the workers who are available or not be able to compete for jobs and not make money and even lose their businesses. When the simple and essential process of operating a business efficiently and profitably requires you to break the law then it is the LAW which needs to be changed, rather than the businessman punished.

    Dave

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    From my perspective in the North Bay, the principal effect of the sitdown was to delay garbage pickup in the county by one day.

    I guess garbageman is one of those jobs that Americans won’t do…

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    When the simple and essential process of operating a business efficiently and profitably requires you to break the law then it is the LAW which needs to be changed

    So if high taxes and required insurances, onerous and costly OSHA, EPA, and FDA requirements, etc. are interferring with the “efficient and profitable” operation of your business, I assume you think it is equally acceptable for businessmen to ignore (i.e. BREAK) these laws and not face punishment. Or is it only laws concerning illegal aliens that you regard it as OK to break with impunity?

  • Blue Meanie

    Dave-

    You are joking, right? If your hypothetical employer has set himself up to where he requires the under market labor of illegal aliens to continue operating his business, then the purity of market forces hemselves clearly state that his business should fail in true Darwinian fashion for being fiscally unfit.

    Just because they have built their businesses on the backs of illegal workers and the lower prices for labor they have paid, does not give any employer the “right” to keep expecting being able to break the law just so they can stay in business. Such an assertion is patently absurd and makes me wonder how many illegals you might employ?

    Unless my reading is completely off, I do not see any “right” a business has at all, on the contrary, all Rights are for the individual.

    Doing business in our nation is a priveledge to be earned. You do so by following the law and delivering a good or service that the market wants.

    Those who take immoral shortcuts do not deserve to do business in or with our country.

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    Such an assertion is patently absurd and makes me wonder how many illegals you might employ?

    I was wondering the same thing. When someone advocates a policy that is destroying the nation, they are either suicidal self-haters of their own culture, or they have a vested interest in supporting that policy, by virtue of some connection whereby they benefit personally and directly from it, and don’t give a rat’s ass what kind of a shitty life their children and grandchildren are left with.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    For the benefit of those readers who do not know German, Mark Bellinghaus did something that is characteristic of the ugly German — to claim that a fluent German speaker isn’t fluent, based only on his knowledge that the other speaker wasn’t born into the German language.

    Since Bellinghaus is pc, he wouldn’t dare do that if, say, he thought I was a Turk, Arab, Hispanic or black. But since I’m politically “white,” he’ll do it.

    You know what? You really need to get a freaking life! Attack yourself–calling me an ugly German is so kind of you–oh, your parents are immigrants? Why don’t you shoot your stupid and so uncalled for ammunition against them–first!

    You support Schwarzenegger and have Jewish roots? You are simply sick. That’s all. For the ones who do not know that, but Schwarzenegger mentioned Adolf itler in some interviews in the 70’s as his hero.
    That his father was a Nazi–I know that doesn’t matter to you you either.
    But shut your trap with projecting how I think! Go and built your fence and shut up–I am after a fraudster gang who is about to screw more people of this country–taking money for a 98.9% fake exhibit! I have saved thousands of people so far the admission fee for that FRAUD! That is my little share for the people of this country and the world.
    You can not insult me with your ignorance and attacks.
    #58Ruvy is correct when he asks you to answer in English.
    And trust me, if you were whatever color or or background I’d tell you upfront, that your German really SUCKS!
    Got it?

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    jedwede Uebersetzenug –sounds like whatever else, but not German to me, Nicky-dude! lol

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    When this bitch who wrote an anti Mark Bellinghaus blog here on blogcritics compared me ANONYMOUS as a different poster to Adolf Hitler, she really stepped into a Hornett’s nest. I found out that it was her, and she confested in an email to that remark–what she did not know is, that I am actually half Jewish myself.

    Her blog did not bring my mission down, and I do not expect from you to say OH WOW! But do not throw shit on others, when you are the one who really stinks!

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    “Ruvy in Jerusalem: Nick,

    “Róv ha-zmán k’sh’aní kotév másh’hu b’safá zará, ani m’targém et ma sh’katávti l’anglít, l’ma’an hadovréi anglít sh’ló meviním et ha safá zará aHéret.

    “Usaually, when I write in a foreign language, I translate what I’ve written for the benefit of the English speakers who do not understand.

    “Would you kindly translate the gist of your remarks in comment #52 to Mark Bellinghaus for those of us not fully fluent in German? If you’re going to whine about foreigners taking over your country, at least use English.”

    Sorry, Ruvy, but I was only writing in German to mock the pretenses of Mark Bellinghaus, who knew nothing about my background, assumed I had no experience of the world, and lectured me that I should spenmd some time traveling and learning what it is like to be a foreigner.

    My German is in boldface; an English-language translation follows in normal typeface.

    Mark Bellinghaus: Do some travelling and feel “foreigner” yourself in other countries and enjoy your life, but of course, that is just my only stupid little opinion.

    (See Bellinghaus post #51)

    Stix: Was soll’s? Glauben Sie, wenn ich ins Ausland fahren wuerde, dass ich duzu kommen wuerde, den Interessen Mexikos den Vorrang ueber die Interessen meines eigenen Landes geben wuerde?

    What’s that supposed to mean? Do you really think that if I traveled abroad, I would come around to giving Mexico’s interest priority over those of my own country?

    Mark Bellinghaus: But I do not agree with yours.
    Oh and, since you seem to know almost everything–can you tell me how this Schwarzenschlecker Body-Builder made it, to become Governour of California?
    Don’t you agree that this is worth complaining?

    Stix: Sie behaupten, die letzten 500 Jahre Geschichte zu kennen, kennen aber nicht einmal die Geschichte Kaliforniens? Sie sollen ein Uni-Dozent sein!

    You say that you know the history of the last 500 years, but you do not even know the history of California. You should be a university professor!

    Stix: Moment mal, ich muss wieder mal Ihre Meinung zu uebersetzen versuchen. Angegeben, dass Sie weder im Deutschen noch im Englischen zu hause zu sein scheinen, ist jedwede Uebersetzenug aeusserst schwer.

    Wait a minute, whiile I try and translate your statement a second time. Given that you appear not to be fluent in German or English, any translation is extremely difficult.

    Stix: Ich glaube, Sie versuchten einen Witz zu machen. Der Witz ging etwa so: Der Stix will keine Auslaender, aber der Schwarzenegger ist ein Republikaner!!!!!!

    I think you were trying to tell a joke. It went something like this: Stix doesn’t want any foreigners, but Schwarzenegger is a Republican!

    Stix: Obwohl Arnold Schwarzenegger ein Oesterreich-geborener Politiker ist, der gleich einem frueheren Oesterreicher im Ausland zu hohem politischen Amt gewaehlt worden ist, das Beispiel Schwarzenegger hat keine Relevanz fuer meine Stellungname. Schwarzenegger is auf legalerweise in die Vereinigten Staaten eingewandert, und war ein legaler amerikanischer Staatsbuerger. Also wurde er auf legaler Weise zum kalifornischen Ministerpraesident gewaehlt, im Gegensatz zum frueheren oesterreichischen Politiker, der kein deutscher Staatsbuerger war, und deshalb auf illegaler Weise zum deutschen Kanzler wurde.

    Although Arnold Schwarzenegger is an Austrian-born politician, and just like an earlier Austrian-born politician was elected to a high political office in a foreign country, Schwarzenegger’s case is irrelevant to my position. Schwarzenegger legally immigrated into the United States, and was a naturalized U.S. citizen. Hence, he was legally elected governor of Casliofrnmia, in contrast to an earlier Austrian politician, who was nbor a German citizen, and thus illegally became German chancellor.

    Stix: Also, welchen Grund hat man die Wahl Schwarzenegger zu beklagen? And warum haben Sie Schwarzenegger einen bloeden, falschen Namen gegeben? War das auch ein Witz-Versuch?

    Thus, what reason does one have for complaining about Schwarzenegger? And why have you given him a stpupid, phony name? Was that another attempt at humor?

    Stix: Vielleicht sind Sie es, der mehr ins Ausland zu verreisen noetig hat.

    Perhaps you are the one who needs to travel more abroad.

    Stix: N.B. Die ganze arabische Welt hat einmal Israel gehoert. Heisst das, das die Israelis heute noch Anspruch auf das ganze Land haben?

    BTW, the entire Arab world once belonged to Israel. Does that mean that the Israelis may still lay claim to owning the entire region?

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Gentlemen, I think it’s time this commentary became monolingual again, and yes, I do mean English. Thank you. Comments Editor.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    duzu?( maybe: dazu?) jedwede? (maybe: jedweilige?) stpupid~maybe you mean “stupid”? Nomen est omen! lol personal suggestion and opinion!

    Why did I give Schwarzenegger a stupid name as you ask me?
    Cause I can not believe that this man supported just several years ago, personally and very strong the biggest European NAZI–Joerg Haider!
    And yet–he won here in California! Disgusting and absolutely shocking.
    That is truely the power of Hollywood.
    But as long as I have a set of working hands, I will do anything possible to go against this and warn people.
    Mr. Stix–you should attack someone you face the moment you shave your face. The one who is looking right into your face.
    But I don’t think you get that either. Sad.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Phil Angelides for GOVENOR
    or
    Steve Wesley for GOVENOR

    Anybody is better THAN SCHWARZENEGGER!!!

    Oh wow–that almost rimes…!
    27 days in counting until ArNOld has to flex his on STEROIDS buit up muscles.

  • zingzing

    so… if illegal immigration is “destroying our country,” and illegal immigrants are about 4-7% of our population, and illegal immigrants take jobs away from americans… why isn’t our unemployment higher?

    also, consider this: the reduction in earnings [for native citizens] occurs regardless of whether the immigrants are legal or illegal, permanent or temporary. It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.

    oh, and n.s.– how about this? does this make you feel better: the negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

    see? they don’t really hurt the white man, just those minorities. “them people?” is that how you say it? so, go pretty up and go to work.

    (this stuff is from the center for immigration studies, cis.org, who is pro-immigrant, but wants more legal immigration and less overall immigration… so that’s their view.)

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    zingzing: “…the negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

    Perhaps that is why a significant majority of Hispanic U.S. citizens consistently poll in the CON column on amnesty programs, guest worker programs, and provision of citizen benefits to non-citizens.

  • zingzing

    was that for you, captain obvious? i don’t think it’s a good point either. but whatever. it’s just for the “everybody hates me cause i’m white” crowd.

  • Blue Meanie

    zing-
    I really don’t much care what a person’s melannin content is, but I have to make a point when you state: “It is the presence of additional workers that reduces wages, not their legal status.”

    I think you will find that wages for illegals are substantially lower than market value for labor, in many cases the wages are actually below the already ludicrous minimum wage. Thus the artificial downward pressure from such a workforce is indeed a factor in overall wage rates.

  • zingzing

    of course it is. not much though. something like a 4% decrease (i think that’s a number from 2000 though). but, of course, the people that it affects most are those that didn’t even finish high school. got to have an education if you want to make money.

    you wanna know who’s a mooch? baby-boomers. yep. now that’s something to worry about. they’re moochin my money to a tune of 6.2% or so, which is just nasty.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Guys–remember the next time you have a great tasting salad–some wonderful Cherries–I mean the one that hang on the trees, if you eat some sweet strawberries or play with cucumbers–remember WHO picked them for you? It ain’t Mr. Jones, Mrs. Miller or Mr. Jeb Bush either.
    How many so called ILLEGAL filled your hungry tummy?
    And which proud American is ready to do that kind of work?
    Be serious and be HONEST. PLEASE!

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Mark B: “…which proud American is ready to do that kind of work?

    My brother John, for one. He worked as a picker for three summers (picking season) in eastern Colorado to earn money for a car while he was a college student.

    My friend Toby, for another. After losing his third job in a year during the dot-com collapse, he had to find work somewhere or lose his house. He filled in the missing money with a job in the Central Valley of California, lettuces and cotton.

    These sneers about “proud Americans” and “jobs no American will do” miss the point of the argument. Americans do all kinds of jobs for which the wages are acceptable in a free market for their labor. Illegal immigrants, however, do not have the same choice of jobs. Among other things, they must find an employer willing to flout the law and employ them. Employers discount the wages they will pay to illegals, to make up for the risk they run in employing them. This artificially depresses the going wage for the jobs they are hired to do.

    By the way, the next time you find yourself thinking there are really jobs no American will do, I suggest you check out the Discovery Channel program Dirty Jobs.

    There’s a future for you as a doll-wig hackler!

  • gonzo marx

    once again…DrPat sez…
    *Americans do all kinds of jobs for which the wages are acceptable in a free market for their labor. Illegal immigrants, however, do not have the same choice of jobs.*

    Quoted for Truth

    our good DrP has once again shown the clear sight of where a lot of this problem resides…

    notice the bits about the free market of labor

    but yas knew all that

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Dr. Pat! Before you attack people the way unqualified way you do–let’s fix your non-working URL! So I can check it out and make sure that you are a REAL DOCTOR,or if you gave yourself that title just to seem more important–a la Dr. Phil?!
    I think it goes without saying where your future will be–

    [Personal attack deleted]

  • gonzo marx

    which freak is yer fucking problem?

    me?..i stopped putting a link up a long time ago…DrPat?

    DrPat has been round here a lot longer than i have, might i advise ya learn the locals before ya open yer pie hole?

    if not…well, i got a soft spot fer fellow Heinleiners…if ya grok what i’m trying ta imply

    run along now, the big folks are talking

    Excelsior?

  • http://youareanidiot RogerMDillon

    who better to judge someone’s qualification than a Marilyn Monroe collector?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Mark Bellinghaus: duzu?( maybe: dazu?) jedwede? (maybe: jedweilige?) stpupid~maybe you mean “stupid”? Nomen est omen! lol personal suggestion and opinion!

    You’re again trying to mock my German, when there’s nothing wrong with it, and it just reinforces your persona as an ugly German. Meanwhile, your English needs a lot of work, fella.

    Mark Bellinghaus: Why did I give Schwarzenegger a stupid name as you ask me? Cause I can not believe that this man supported just several years ago, personally and very strong the biggest European NAZI–Joerg Haider!

    I just googled under “Schwarzenegger” and “Haider,” but didn’t find anything about the former supporting the latter. You need to do a lot better at supporting your charges.

    Mark Bellinghaus: And yet–he won here in California! Disgusting and absolutely shocking.
    That is truely the power of Hollywood.
    But as long as I have a set of working hands, I will do anything possible to go against this and warn people.

    Mr. Stix–you should attack someone you face the moment you shave your face. The one who is looking right into your face.
    But I don’t think you get that either. Sad.

    Get what? You tried to sound profound, but only sounded sanctimonious, and in less than polished English, to boot.

    Why would I attack myself? Coming from you, who is so thin-skinned, that’s a laugh. You need to take your irony supplement.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Oh man, GAL!
    You are really something else–YOU are the one who is mocking other commenters ENGLISH and that is why I mocked your false GERMAN! Got it?
    What is your point anyhow? Because some people do not agree with your BS?

    And you need to take your quicksilver.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    #83
    gonzo marx
    May 11, 2006
    06:47 PMwhich freak is yer fucking problem?

    me?..i stopped putting a link up a long time ago…DrPat?

    DrPat has been round here a lot longer than i have, might i advise ya learn the locals before ya open yer pie hole?

    if not…well, i got a soft spot fer fellow Heinleiners…if ya grok what i’m trying ta imply

    run along now, the big folks are talking

    Excelsior?

    Ask Eric Olsen for advice–as everyone here should be trackable and not post under a freaking hidden agenda–but you won’t get that either.
    Correct?
    What are you collecting? Food stamps?
    Cool–as long as it pays your internet access.
    Bombastic, man – I am impressed and wow–you are so powerful and funny! Not.

  • zingzing

    damn… mark, you need to calm down a bit. sure, nicholas is… somewhat idiotic, and neither you or i agree with dr. pat… but, what the hell, man? i wouldn’t bring eric into this… might get you censored, or worse, should you continue your tirade.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    zingzing: so… if illegal immigration is “destroying our country,” and illegal immigrants are about 4-7% of our population, and illegal immigrants take jobs away from americans… why isn’t our unemployment higher?

    It is higher than the official stats; much higher. The feds only count people who are receiving unemployment insurance checks. Once your unemployment runs out, they stop counting you.

    zingzing: oh, and n.s.– how about this? does this make you feel better: the negative effect on native-born black and Hispanic workers is significantly larger than on whites because a much larger share of minorities are in direct competition with immigrants.

    see? they don’t really hurt the white man, just those minorities. “them people?” is that how you say it? so, go pretty up and go to work.

    (this stuff is from the center for immigration studies, cis.org, who is pro-immigrant, but wants more legal immigration and less overall immigration… so that’s their view.)

    More immigration will hurt Americans, whether it be legal or illegal. Even legal immigrants use much more in government services than they pay in taxes. Illegal immigration will hurt us more, however, because, as another poster pointed out, employers illegally pay many of them below the minimum wage, as well as cheating on employer tax contributions. And even when employers pay illegals above the minimum wage, they typically pay 50 percent less than they would pay legal workers.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    I am being attacked by probably the one and only person who posts under different names–how do we know that anyhow–I am out of here.
    Eric taught me some things and I admit it, that four month ago I did not even know what a freaking blog is!
    I used it to warn the public and I received thousands of Thank you email! I am not letting this loser attack me–what has he done for his fellow people in this country.
    I have been able to make a multi million ($60 to$100 MILLION) FRAUD known to the world. What did this Marx guy do– that wanna be commedian or communist–maybe BOTH?
    Or that wanna be DOCTOR?
    Whatever. Sorry, but zingzing–I think you know what I am talking about.
    Peace and whatever.
    Friends through Marilyn! Visit my blog and leave some shit there, too!

  • gonzo marx

    Mark in #87 sez…
    *you ball-less retrard!*

    and THAT kiddies, is a direct personal attack…brilliant Mark!

    now, as fer me asking Eric O anything…

    clue incoming after ya buya vowel…

    Eric and Phillip, along with some of the Editors , already have both my e-mail and blog address, but my personal e-mail as well!!

    suprise!

    try talking about shit you think you know something about, and you will be logically humiliated less…

    now..i’m gonna try and follow along with the rest…

    i’m not collecting anythign…or shilling anything either…

    i pay for my net connection, working fer a living has some perks

    i don’t give an aerial fornication bisecting a rotating pastry about you…impressing you, or your opinion on my mad pecking at a keyboard

    i do get some amusement from discussing topics i find of Interest…and i do derive soem small enjoyment from spotting and elucidating key points

    but i also get a huge fucking kick out of calling folks on pure bullshit

    nuff said

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I am being attacked by probably the one and only person who posts under different names

    Mark, you do NOT want to go there. And you should know better by now.

    –how do we know that anyhow

    I know because I’m an editor and have access to the IP addresses of commenters. Plus I have certain internet tools which let me identify just enough more about those IP addresses to be pretty sure who’s using the same computer to post under different names.

    Need I say more?

    Dave

  • zingzing

    have fun mark, you’re a strange one. everyone gets attacked from time to time. thicker skin. look into it.

  • zingzing

    n.s.–how long does unemployment last? go get an education in the interim. if you haven’t graduated high school… don’t complain. you can’t get a job at a fucking coffee shop these days without graduating high school.

    as for immigration… there will always be immigration. if we are america, and we are, then we have to be somewhat open to new immigrants, because that’s what we stand for in the world. shining light of opportunity, weak tired poor, all that shit. if you want to stop immigration, start with your parents. why did they come here?

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    WHOA.

    So that’s what a meltdown looks like on a blog.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Mark Bellinghaus: Guys–remember the next time you have a great tasting salad–some wonderful Cherries–I mean the one that hang on the trees, if you eat some sweet strawberries or play with cucumbers–remember WHO picked them for you? It ain’t Mr. Jones, Mrs. Miller or Mr. Jeb Bush either.
    How many so called ILLEGAL filled your hungry tummy?
    And which proud American is ready to do that kind of work?
    Be serious and be HONEST. PLEASE!

    That was a pathetic attempt at criticism. I’ve done every kind of menial and physical labor, when I’ve needed the money, and would gladly have picked fruits and vegetables at different times in my life, if the jobs were available.

    “so called” (sic)?

  • http://quityourcrying RogerMDillon

    “if I haven’t had a working URL–how the FUCK would you know what I am doing ”

    Because you wrote a article here about your great Marilyn expose and kept in in the most comments by asking yur friends to repeatedly post to it. Your URL had nothing to do with it.

    By the way, my URL does work. It brings up the message that I wanted it to:

    “The requested URL /mt/youareanidiot was not found on this server.”

    No one forced you to click on it.

  • gonzo marx

    zing sez…
    *if we are america, and we are, then we have to be somewhat open to new immigrants, because that’s what we stand for in the world.*

    good point…

    now i got the nuts of the matter right here

    the difference is between legal and illegal

    i got no problems with immigrants per se, all my ancestors got here durign the 20th century…legally…via Ellis island…legally

    it’s the illegal ones that are the problem we are discussing…

    important distinction

    Excelsior?

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Mark Bellinghaus: Oh man, GAL!
    You are really something else–YOU are the one who is mocking other commenters ENGLISH and that is why I mocked your false GERMAN! Got it?
    What is your point anyhow? Because some people do not agree with your BS?

    You’re lying, Mark. Again. I didn’t mock any other poster’s English, and I only mocked yours after you stupidly and dishonestly mocked my German. So, you’re telling lies on top of lies, which besides being a no-no on general principle, is also a violation of one of the three laws of lying: Economy.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    RogerMDillon
    URL
    May 11, 2006
    07:38 PM”if I haven’t had a working URL–how the FUCK would you know what I am doing ”

    Because you wrote a article here about your great Marilyn expose and kept in in the most comments by asking yur friends to repeatedly post to it. Your URL had nothing to do with it.

    By the way, my URL does work. It brings up the message that I wanted it to:

    “The requested URL /mt/youareanidiot was not found on this server.”

    No one forced you to click on it.

    Mmmmhhhh let me think–even if you say I can’t do that either Mr. SUPER SMART AND FINAL!
    So you must have read a few of 2400+ whatever comments and now you are spitting fire?
    What the fuck made you click on my URL? Jealousy? Did I mention with a sigle word how many comments I got? Did any of your article make it anywhere at all?
    No?
    How sad for you–and that Eric and Phillip know your email and whatever else about you does not give you the freaking right to attack me with your anonymous name. You guys are great with making stories up and one last comment “zingzing” you and that other guy– that Jet in Columbus guy–you seem to be ONE person in my book.
    Are you not being too obvious?
    God bless you all and I hope you are not feeling to stressed out to meet your chicks later on.
    It’s all about one thing, isn’t it?
    Have some fun, you people–go and see that fraudulent exhibit and be fooled by Mr. Otto and the people behind it.
    Who cared about that crazy German blogger who is attacking even the devil(literally speaking..) Oh well.
    Adieu.
    LOL

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Hey Reger! At least I do have FRIENDS!

  • RogerMDillon

    How did you know that? You’ve discovered my one weakness {sob}. I–I can’t go on. Goodbye, Cruel World.

  • http://absent-mind.blogspot.com/ Jet in Columbus

    Sorry Kid, you’re wrong about me and Zing, which is easily verified, but keep fantasizing…
    Jet

  • gonzo marx

    heh…and dead wrong about me and Roger…

    i am O.G.

    original gonzo

    /end hijack

    as for the original Post…

    i’ve said it many times…fine the employers, secure the borders and ports..

    THEN you can begin to deal with the illegals you have in the country already…but not before

    Excelsior?

  • http://elvirablack.blogspot.com/ Elvira Black

    What does amaze me is that US citizens are often woefully ignorant of the benefits available to them when they encounter hardship, but illegal immigrants seem to know all the benefits which are apparently legally available to them and their children. Just my jaundiced opinion, not backed up with facts, figures, and stats. But if true, what does this say about our society?

  • zingzing

    delusional, obsessed whacko: “Have some fun, you people–go and see that fraudulent exhibit and be fooled by Mr. Otto and the people behind it.
    Who cared about that crazy German blogger who is attacking even the devil(literally speaking..)”

    immigration stuff: illegal vs legal is an issue. but it is not the be-all, end-all of this situation. things are not black and white here. never were, never will be. obviously, it is more desirable to certain immigrants to risk death, ridiculously low wages, possible deportation, harrassment, exploitation and constant fear of losing their family… rather than go through the legal channels toward citizenship. what’s up with that? what does that say?

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Gosh, Mark! There is a substantial difference between “DrPat”, a nickname I’ve carried for nearly 30 years now, and “Dr. Pat”, implying I have some doctoral degree. (Whether or not I’m the kind of doctor who can do ya any good, as the sainted Dr. Jubal Harshaw had it.)

    Likewise, there is a substantial difference between the immigrants who continue to come to live in the US after complying with the legal entry requirements (however onerous), and those who break the law to enter the country and continue to break the law to live and work here. (Whether or not they or we benefit from their labor in the short run, the long-run effect is exactly the reduction in respect for the law that we see in many of the posts in this forum.)

  • zingzing

    drpat–if there is a substantial difference, what is it? what does it matter to you? why?

  • http://http/paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Zing, the message received by the willingness of people to break the law can be stated quite simply:

    1. There are no consequences of breaking the law as serious as those incurred by NOT breaking the law. (Variant translation: It’s easier to live illegal in the US than it is to live legal in other countries.)

    2. There is no relative benefit in entering the US legally to offset the time and effort entailed in complying with the law. (Variant translation: Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?)

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Nicholas, if there’s any Hitlerian activity here, it’s coming from YOU. Not that there aren’t legitimately plenty of problems and issues about immigration, but trying to compare poor Mexicans slipping across the border to bus our tables and pick our fruit for a couple of bucks an hour to Hitler is not just stupid and inapplicable. It’s classic demagoguery. It’s about on the level of Hitler whipping people up against the Jews.

    What the hell’s wrong with you, anyway? This is one of the most ridiculously hateful things I’ve read recently- and one of the least rational.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    THANK YOU AL!!! FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A WORKING URL WHO SPEAKS THE TRUTH.
    I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    trying to compare poor Mexicans slipping across the border to bus our tables and pick our fruit for a couple of bucks an hour to Hitler

    The individual Mexicans involved are not the masterminds of The Reconquista, any more than than Hitler’s foot soldiers were the masterminds of the Anschluss. They are merely the pawns. The masterminds are in Distrito Federal, and Washington D.C.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    You’re welcome, Mark. I know we’ve got significant problems with immigration issues. But it is totally unconscionable to be tarring poor people looking for work as “criminals” merely for violating arbitrary laws about crossing political boundaries.

    And it’s totally unacceptable to have schmucks describing such people as an evil invasion force. What’s the next step from that, concentration camps?

  • zingzing

    al, you are a mystery. can’t figure you out.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Mr Brodie- Masterminds my ass. Today the tomato fields, tomorrow the Pentagon!

    HINT: The immigrants are generally not carrying guns or occupying private property, or otherwise acting in a violent manner. They’re here WORKING and trying to feed their families. A handful of left-wingers carrying on about Reconquista or such doesn’t change the facts about 99% of the people.

    Plus, this kind of hateful xenophobia is just the kind of thing that would tend to make apolitical gardeners and hotel cleaning staff sympathetic to the “reconquista” nonsense.

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    it is totally unconscionable to be tarring poor people looking for work as “criminals” merely for violating arbitrary laws about crossing political boundaries.

    No. What is unconscionable is undermining the whole conceept of the rule of law, by NOT calling people criminals who knowingly violate the law – and then adding insult to injury by branding the law itself “arbitrary”.

    Immigration Law is no more arbitrary than any other category of laws that have been established by Congress, State Legislatures, etc. If you want to maintain that Immigration Law can be violated without the violators having to suffer any consequences, then the same would have to be said about every other law.

    And a free trip back to their home countries is a far fucking cry from “concentration camps.” God, talk about a schmuck irrationally whipping people up!

  • Heloise

    Why not call it “AMEXICA?” If your scenario comes to fruition that is what we will all be singing. BTW I got a paid-up credit card bill in the mail that was all in Spanish. I called them and told them I did not like it one little bit. They asked me if I requested such a bill and said they only send out spanish versions if requested. I said Hell no I didn’t request it. I also cancelled that particular card.

    I am a black American and I see exactly how they view us. I work in public or is it pubic schools and the disdain they show for teachers and students is palpable. I found the “N” word all over the room the first day I got there.

    It will get sorted out eventually and as the Bible says “The Last shall be first.” Blacks are even last with illegals. All I can say is they will probably regret that stance in the end.

    Heloise

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    Mr. Fucking smart as Stix could never answer to the question I asked him–what he might give as a reasonable approach to the much bigger “threat” to this very country.
    China & India–billions of people–most of so called phone-jobs are already THERE, man! Speaking about a lunatic who wants to built a WALL A LA EAST & WEST GERMANY!
    Call your AMEX account (if you got one) and ask that person where he/she is at! Surprise.
    And I be that this moron at something that was picked by some (illegal) immegrants–even if he is eating fast food straight until he dies.
    The lettuce, man–it ain’t gonna be picked by Miss Texas or Mister New Mexico.

    And defintely not from Mr.Stix!

  • Heloise needs English lessons BADLY!

    I said Hell no I didn’t request it.

    Helloise–is that what you call English?

  • zingzing

    hey hnelb–looks like english to me… what doesn’t make sense?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Mr Brodie, I specifically disagree with this statement: “Immigration Law is no more arbitrary than any other category of laws that have been established by Congress, State Legislatures, etc.”

    In fact, yes immigration law is MUCH more arbitrary than some laws. To say that it is not requires a basic authoritarian presumption that it is legitimate simply because the authorities declared it so.

    That is, it’s perfectly legitimate in my estimation for people in whatever congregation of law to demand that you not be pillaging, raping, looting and killing. If you won’t restrain yourself from actively and specifically hurting others, then you don’t have much claim to avoid similar treatment for yourself.

    Past that, however, I start to question the legitimacy of making rules over other people. If the government decided to make a law against going from Franklin county to Fayette county, I would disregard it as having any legitimacy. The fact that some politicians have declared something does not automatically mean that it carries any moral authority.

    I understand that there are legitimate problematic practical issues, but I specifically reject any presumption of immoral behavior on illegal immigrants simply for coming here.

  • zingzing

    hey brother singsing–did you know you aren’t supposed to post under different screen names? i don’t. i’m sure an editor could prove it if you like. of course, should they look at that, they could check out who you are. mark.

    [To avoid confusion I deleted the remarks falsely attributed to singsing; you were absolutely right, zinger. Comments Editor]

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    i’m sure an editor could prove it if you like.

    Hey editor–can you really? Prove it to all of us that “zingzing” is really a different person than “Jet”?
    I mean big deal that “zingzing” is writing everything (almost) in small captions, but his style and the toppics they chose to discuss–are too obvious.

    Wherever Jet comments–Ms. zingzing is right there. Amazing–I have never witnessed such faith anywhere – not even in real life! lol

    [I’ll tell you this much, Mark; you are the only person using false names and making wild and inaccurate assumptions about identity. FACT! Comments Editor]

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com/ Mark Bellinghaus

    With other words–he’s talking to himself, and that: CONSTANTLY!

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Al Barger: Nicholas, if there’s any Hitlerian activity here, it’s coming from YOU. Not that there aren’t legitimately plenty of problems and issues about immigration, but trying to compare poor Mexicans slipping across the border to bus our tables and pick our fruit for a couple of bucks an hour to Hitler is not just stupid and inapplicable. It’s classic demagoguery. It’s about on the level of Hitler whipping people up against the Jews.

    What the hell’s wrong with you, anyway? This is one of the most ridiculously hateful things I’ve read recently- and one of the least rational.

    There, Al. Do we feel better, now? Do we feel morally superior?

    There was a time when a lot of people listened to the likes of you, Al — ten, twenty years ago. In spite of the control of MSM and libertarian editors, very few people not profiting off of illegal immigration will give you the time of day anymore.

    Bill Kristol tried the same tactic the other day, calling all of the people opposing an illegal immigration amnesty “yahoos.” It didn’t work for him, and it certainly won’t work for you.

    Americans will no longer permit self-righteous, opportunistic fools to shame them into a policy of national suicide.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Mark. Calm down.

    Jet in Columbus and Zingzing are not, in any way, the same person. I know this for a fact. And you, Mark — I say this with only the best and most helpful intentions — are making a fool of yourself.

  • zingzing

    i dont put up a url because i dont have a url. you’re a nutter… you were all on my side until i told you to calm down and then you went all ape-shit. child.

    i think you’ve found a really good conspiracy though. maybe you should write a blog about it.

    “jet is zing and zing is jet!–how mark bellinghaus uncovered the truth that only mark bellinghaus could have uncovered, trust in the mark bellinghaus, believe the mark bellinghaus, quote the mark bellinghaus, worship the mark bellinghaus.”

    FRIENDS IN ZING/JET HATRED FOREVER!

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    Oh really? lol
    Why not just putting up a URL that works? What is the big deal for him–if he indeed is someone else, to let us know who we are dealing with–he attacked me and I don’t even know who I am dealing with?
    You have your opinion and I have mine–better a fool than a loof!(that is fool backwards and can easily interpretated as LET OTHERS OBVIOUS FOOL!)

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Mark Bellinghaus: THANK YOU AL!!! FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A WORKING URL WHO SPEAKS THE TRUTH.
    I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

    Last I heard from you, Mark, you were saying, ‘You won’t have Mark Bellinghaus to kick around anymore,’ cussing out everyone, screaming about my having supposedly used my secret agent knowledge against you, and claiming that people who thought you were ridiculous were secretly using multiple posting names to ridicule you.

    Apparently, in your paranoia, you have leeched onto this particular thread, and for all of your complaints and violations of the posting rules, do not plan to ever let go.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    Very funny! ha ha ha!
    I do agree with many comments who told the truth about your so absurd article and this will be my last comment! You are ignorant and you can not stand when others think different than you do, Mr. Stix.
    You can make fun of others and you love the cat fights–so do I.
    I think that kissing ass is boaring and see–at least I helped you to be successful with your shitty story that is perfectly displayed by COMMENT # 110. That one says it all.
    Now you gonna go on and continue making fun and you have your people who brown nose you right after that.
    But your article is the most racist and absolutely insane thing I have read here on blogcritics!
    Can you read it? Blogcritics? If you can not take “critic” you should try blogsissies or blognazis!

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    I told you before–just avoid MIRRORS!

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    Nicholas Stix
    Location:New York City
    A dissident journalist, my work has been published in dozens of daily newspapers, magazines, and journals under my own name and many pseudonyms.

  • http://www.markbellinghaus.com Mark Bellinghaus

    I’m out of here Mr. WHATEVER!
    America needs Nicolas Stix. The answer to a weak Bush!

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    Mr. Barger, you say:

    I know we’ve got significant problems with immigration

    and then again:

    I understand that there are legitimate problematic practical issues

    But you never mention what those problems are. Do you think the only problem is that a few terrorists might sneak in? Or are you willing to admit that the invasion level numbers we’ve seen in the last ten years are stressing to the point of collapse our health care, education, transportation and other infrasystems?

    You are obviously an advocate of doing away with all immigration law, which you abhor as “arbitrary” – which is equivalent to saying that you advocate no border control whatsoever. So just exactly how would you propose to solve the “problematic issues”? Perhaps you would like to see leaflets thrown onto the Mexican side saying:

    We don’t want to see all you fine folks denied access to all of our wonderful free welfare services. But please won’t you voluntarily refain from continuing to come into America in numbers so great as to impose a strain on our citizens’ capacity to finance all those services for you, a strain that will surely result in the ultimate collapse of our welfare service delivery system. Thanks in advance for your kind cooperation.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    My apologies to all – I just realized that under Mark’s constant complaints about my handle and opinions was a genuine issue: a typo in the URL I had saved when I changed computers meant that you couldn’t get to my blog.

    Won’t find much there, Mark, even with the correction — it’s a cobWeb site since January…

  • http://absent-mind.blogspot.com/ Jet in Columbus

    Considering how I’ve only posted one {EXPLETIVE DELETER}ING comment on this string, would someone please explain what the hell’s going on and how I became involved with this?

    I see a lot of stuff on here with my {EXPLETIVE DELETER}ING name on it that isn’t exactly complimentary!

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    Heloise says:

    I am a black American and I see exactly how they [Mexicans/Hispanics] view us. I work in public or is it pubic schools and the disdain they show for teachers and students is palpable. I found the “N” word all over the room the first day I got there.

    It took blacks 400 years to reach 13% of the population. Now browns have displaced them as the largest minority, growing from a couple per-cent to 14% in LESS THAN TWENTY YEARS. That’s TWENTY TIMES faster than blacks.

    You’d think that Hispanics would have less antipathy for African Americans than they do for whites. They view whites as the ones who primarily “robbed” them of their “rightful” territories via the Mexican American War and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

    But American whites have had a long time to develop an accepting attitude toward their former slaves. I for one would not want to be in their shoes right now. I would be greatly alarmed with concern for my black children and grandchildren, looking forward to living in a completely different America that, if nothing is done to reverse the current trend, could well have a controlling Hispanic majority sometime in the latter half of this century.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Let’s extract a quote from the Larry “Nativo” Lopez interview cited here: “…full immediate, unconditional legalization for all persons currently in the United States.””

    Think for just a minute what that means. Were we to return to September 10, 2001 and accede to this demand, the 9/11 hijackers would be full US citizens when they committed their mass murders.

    Or forget the Wayback Machine, and just give in to Nativo today. Immediately, our systems would bear the full brunt of the numbers of illegals who do NOT currently avail themselves of emergency care, unemployment insurance, ADC and other entitlements, public education, and so on.

    I am not alone (based on multiple opinion polls) in fearing the results of such a blanket amnesty. And the Congressional versions of Nativo’s plan are simply watered-down poisons of the same variety.

    Ayn Rand stated it succinctly: Any compromise with poison is still toxic.

  • zingzing

    mark/singsing: “Oh you loser obviously read my blog? hahaha
    what is your big freaking discovery? That you are phony and you got caught?

    If I wasn’t correct you would not get off like a piece of doe in the oven, JET!”

    yeah, i read your post… about 1/10th of it. it got strange really fast. remember i’m the one who told you not to write in third person, because it’s kind of creepy or something like that? yeah. that’s me.

    i’m a phony how?

    because i’m jet? that’s your conspiracy. go ahead, ask an editor to prove it to you. they can do that. ask them if we post from the same ip address. i think you’ll find that we are several thousand miles apart…

    that last sentence of yours… i don’t think anyone can understand. what are you saying?

    and yeah… you’re a nutter. how many people have asked you to calm down? 3 or 4 at last count. i’m surprised that an editor hasn’t gotten involved as this thread has devolved quite rapidly.

    of course, i’m not going to quit. you’re too much fun.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Jet, ignore it all. This thread has become an asylum for the crazy element of BC and is better avoided. I expect the cryptonazis to show up at any moment.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    ahh, jet, you bellbottom-wearing hippy… if there were anyone i wouldn’t feel ashamed to be mistaken for on this site, it would be you.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Aw, Zing. You’d be ashamed to be mistaken for me?

  • zingzing

    you weren’t around mike! i didn’t think you’d notice… i’m sorry. forgive me? oh, mike! don’t walk away! look, i know i made a mistake. please! please…

    …i love you.

    DAMN IT! it was only out of pity! i never! never would have… i never would want to hurt you…

    let me make it better… please… mike? look at me. please. just look at me. look in my eyes.

    you know the truth. the truth is in my eyes.

  • RogerMDillon

    I see the confusion in that we both like Rush, Hunter Thompson and usually agree on issues, like Mark being a complete nutjob–wait, everyone agrees on that.

    For future reference, Gonzo is smarter than I am, while I am a better speller. Also we grew up on different comics, so save your mad ravings for your fellow 1950s Anna Nicole-Smith collectors.

    Shazam!

  • gonzo marx

    oh my stars and garter….

    Roger….to Quote our dear missing Shark…

    “ I love you maaAAAAaaaaan!”

    and i thought i was in charge of mad ravings?

    who knew?

    ah well…

    to try and steer this wreck back towards the original Topic…

    illegal is bad…mmmm’kay…

    Excelsior?

  • JR

    Gonzo Marx: illegal is bad

    Not always.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Breaking the law, JR, makes one a law-breaker. If the law one breaks is major enough, it makes one a felon.

    Until the law is changed, that is…

  • JR

    The problem is using that argument on someone (not necessarily me) who believes the law should be changed. After all, Rosa Parks broke the law; did that make her bad?

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Yes, Rosa Parks was a law-breaker.

    And she got the law changed.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Gonzo, JR, etc- Along with the groovy new Springsteen and Paul Simon albums, my favorite song at the moment is the Judas Priest classic “Breakin’ the Law.” I’m pounding it out the speakers right now in honor of our undocumented neighbors.

    Monsieur Brodie, Dr Pat, to you I can only say, “You don’t know what it’s liiiiiiiiiike!”

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    This is the most laughable article I’ve ever read on Blogcritics, and that includes every edition of “A Puddle of Suss.”

    Phew.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Matthew T. Sussman, quoting someone else: This is the most laughable article I’ve ever read on Blogcritics, and that includes every edition of “A Puddle of Suss.”

    Phew.

    Did you even bother reading it?

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Just enough to appreciate a comment that both slammed your story and referenced me.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    The US was founded on illegal immigration. When the Mayflower set out for America they were supposed to settle in the Chesapeake Bay area so that they’d be under the watchful eye of the Government in Virginia, but instead they disobeyed royal orders and landed and settled hundreds of miles away in Massachusetts specifically to avoid government oversight.

    Dave

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Stix: Did you even bother reading it?

    Matthew T. Sussman: Just enough to appreciate a comment that both slammed your story and referenced me.

    English translation of Matthew T. Sussman: No, I didn’t read it.

    Matthew T. Sussman, you have proved yourself qualified to be a tenured professor of social policy.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    You’re right, I didn’t read it. And I openly admit not giving two shits on the issue of immigration. You’re barking up a tree that isn’t there.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dave Nalle: The US was founded on illegal immigration.

    Another Nallity.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Matthew T. Sussman: You’re right, I didn’t read it. And I openly admit not giving two shits on the issue of immigration. You’re barking up a tree that isn’t there.

    What a stupid, dishonest remark. You quote an idiotic comment, trying to give the impression that you’d read the article, get called on it, and now try to backpedal and insist you never cared.

    You’ve been caught out. It’s too late. You’re like a guy who gets picked off sleeping off first base, in front of 50,000 people, and insists he was standing on the bag the whole time.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    He referenced my once existent humor article series, I appreciated the reference. End of story, nothing else to debate.

    Again, Nick, there is no tree.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Thanks Suss. And believe me, the comment wasn’t anywhere near as idiotic as the article. :-)

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    This thread has become an asylum for the crazy element of BC and is better avoided.

    A-freakin’-men.

  • http://blog.toddyarling.com todd yarling

    Man, I myself feel the free market has already decided about immigration.

    Yer out of luck, and anyway, both the parties have decided to groom the illegals to be future voters and somehow save the populist part of the welfare state, eg, social security.

    But it sure bugs me how quick people are to call you a nazi and a quack, these smarmy name callers, they get on my nerves.

    Don’t let the bastards grind you down.

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Thanks.

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    Dave Nalle: The US was founded on illegal immigration.

    Another Nallity.

    And since he was talking about Chesapeake Bay, I guess one could say that it qualifies as a Bay-Nallity :)

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dave Nalle: The US was founded on illegal immigration.

    Stix: Another Nallity.

    Richard Brodie: And since he was talking about Chesapeake Bay, I guess one could say that it qualifies as a Bay-Nallity :)

    (Smile.)

  • Dave Nalle

    So ‘nallity’ is Nikstix codeword for ‘established historical fact’?

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Now that’s the Richard Brodie I like.

    Great pun Richard, bay-nallity! Classic!!

  • MCH

    nallity: an endless speil of overbearing, judgmental, rhetorical crap.

  • http://absent-mind.blogspot.com/ Jet in Columbus

    Now was that nice? how about Multi-Crappola-Hype?

    Of course I could be Judgmental Egotistical Tripe.

    Give everyone a break already!

  • Heloise

    Dear Richard,

    The black genocide (read abortion for all) has quelled and culled the black population down at least 14 million from what it would have been had there been no legal abortion. Some are even calling it legal genocide.

    So, if blacks had that 14 million plus the 14 or so million we are presently that would put us at about 28 million and then we would outstrip the illegals and the legal immigrants in terms of size. But since that is not the case blacks will simply have to be rescued from the extinct column.

    BTW to the one who says Heloise needs English lessons–I write fast and type fast and sometimes have no time to check it. But no one else has pointed that out but yourself. SOoooo, it seems that you are the one in need of the English lessons.

    Heloise

  • Heloise

    Steps to vanquish the invasion across our borders.

    I want to preface my comments by saying that it was the will of the people that we NOT go to Iraq. That was not heeded and look what happened. It is the WILL of the people that the ILLEGALS be sent back to their country of origin (mostly Latin America). Yes, they should be marched home single-file with babies and strollers in tow. Why? Because they have literally stolen their way into this country and they need to steal the fuck out of it.

    I am willing to bet if THAT were polled it would reach critical mass. The politicians are just that, political. And they want to sidestep the shit they have created hand-in-hand with business (read greedy bastards).

    There are so many people who cannot get a job despite their qualifications (including the author) who would love to work in the publishing industry. I have advanced degrees and can’t hide that nor my salary history. So, I can’t get the job I want.

    Here goes:
    First: do secure the borders.

    Second: send the millions back to their country of origin (they want to send back the ones you have been here in the last 5 years)

    Third: Go after the businesses with fines etc. who have hired the illegals–enforce the Social security system

    Fourth: After they have been sent back and the borders are secure then start to reform the system

    Fifth: Enforce the good laws already on the books

    Sixth: If this is not at least attempted then for the 2006 and 2008 elections–VOTE the politicians, who sat on their ass, OUT of office…

    Heloise

  • MCH

    Jet, with all due respect, you’re brief input is still a molehill compared to Nalle’s mountainous (piles of dung) 6,854 BC comments…

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    So ‘nallity’ is Nikstix codeword for ‘established historical fact’?

    Dave

    Dave, you live in a fact-free zone.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Re. 170. Every one of which comments has more useful content in it than the sum total of all the petulant and bigoted comments MCH has made on BC since he discovered it.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So Nicky, you maintain that the Mayflower pilgrims did NOT settle on Massachusetts Bay rather than in the Chesapeake area? That’ll be quite a shock to historians.

    Dave

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    “The US was founded on illegal immigration. When the Mayflower set out for America they were supposed to settle in the Chesapeake Bay area so that they’d be under the watchful eye of the Government in Virginia, but instead they disobeyed royal orders and landed and settled hundreds of miles away in Massachusetts specifically to avoid government oversight.

    Dave

    So ‘nallity’ is Nikstix codeword for ‘established historical fact’?
    Dave

    So Nicky, you maintain that the Mayflower pilgrims did NOT settle on Massachusetts Bay rather than in the Chesapeake area? That’ll be quite a shock to historians.

    Dave”

    No, Davey-Boy, I pointed out that you misrepresented matters, as you always seem to do. (I haven’t read all 9,327,481,361 of your comments, but all of the ones I’ve seen were dishonest.)

    Pilgrims and Plymouth

    “Some of these Puritans sought refuge in the Netherlands, or Holland, a protestant country, but they never felt at home there. Through a connection with the Virginia company of London, they obtained a patent to form a plantation in America, and in 1620 they sailed to the new world in the Mayflower.

    “The Pilgrims initially intended to land in northern Virginia and serve out their term of indentured service. As the Mayflower approached Nantucket, off today’s Massachusetts, a terrible storm came up and threw it off course. The Pilgrims were forced to head north, following the coast until they rounded the tip of Cape Cod and found a protected inlet. Here they anchored and deliberated. Since they were outside Virginia their patent was useless. They therefore drew up their own law, the Mayflower Compact, which would govern the new colony. Discovering that Cape Cod was too barren to support human life, the Pilgrims sailed west to Plymouth Bay. Here they landed and made their first settlement in the new world.”

    animatedatlas.com

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Besides, Davy-Boy, there is no such thing, legally speaking, as pre-independence illegal immigration. We are talking about the United States of America, or have you forgotten that?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    You think there was no law before the Revolution? The concept of immigration for your own benefit has a much longer history than that. And your quote from the animated atlas exactly bears out – in more detail – what I was saying.

    The point of all this is that people have ALWAYS moved where they needed to and done so in defiance of the laws of their nation and/or the nation they were moving to. It’s a basic human dynamic and it gets resolved in one of two ways, either through changing the immigration laws or through a violent conflict.

    Living in Texas we have a perfect example in our more recent history. The original Anglo Texans largely moved here in defiance of Spanish/Mexican immigration law. Once there were enough of them here they tried to get redress from the Mexican government. When it failed to recognize their rights and treat them decently they rebelled. The same thing happened in Florida and California in the same period.

    You should try to learn from history rather than denying it.

    Dave

  • Heloise

    It is MORE than a little difficult to obtain work visas in France. Even marrying a citizen does not give you automatic citizenship. And I am sure that having a child born there illegally will only get you exported. You even have to have proof of insurance in order to get an extended work visa.

    You are basically competing with everyone in the EU for the job.

    Read more:

    Living and Working in France – French Visas and Work Permits

    french.about.com/library/bl-liveworkinfrance.htm

    Basically they do not want outsiders filling precious jobs over its citizens. In fact they charge you to breathe the Midi air and to go to the bathroom.

    Heloise

  • Bliffle

    “In fact they charge you to breathe the Midi air and to go to the bathroom.”

    Not neccesarily. Only days ago I was hiking thru the Aubrac breathing the Midi air freely and copiously peeing on the Midi earth. OK, I paid for the aligote, confit, cassoulet and even Midi Libre, but those were options.

  • MCH

    Re #172, 173 and 176;

    Make that 6,855, 6,856 and 6,857 overbearing, judgemental and rhetorical comments on BC…and counting…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    (puts on the Talking Heads playing ‘psychokiller’ and waits for MCH to show up at the front gate)

    Dave

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Jeez, when does the hair pulling commence?

    (Checks Dave’s mug shot)

    Oh.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Well, I’m heading to bed soon, so when he leaves his flaming bag of poop at the gate I’ll just let it burn out and send the houseboy out to deal with it in the morning.

    Dave

  • Heloise

    The crimeberg that is about to sink our middle class ship: Crime, crime and more crime…
    That is only the tip of the iceberg with illegal immigration. First, they have stolen their way into this country which does have a fucked up immigration (read overloaded) system. And they have put themselves at the head of the line.

    WHat about the drugs, the DUIs, the horrible car crashes they have caused and the gridlock on the roads with their full trucks on the road day and night? The criminals from Columbia or wherever those mafia 13 come from have influenced the illegals children to immitate their criminality.

    Not only are the Mexicans immitating the black culture of sagging pants and saying the hell with school, but they are also immitating the worse kind of criminals/thugs this country has seen since the Italian Mafia.

    That’s only the tip of the crimeberg.

    Heloise

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Heloise, crime has been consistently and dramatically declining in the US for the past decade. It’s the most substantial period of decline in the crime rate in US history. How does that fit with our paranoia about immigrant criminals?

    Dave

  • http://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/ Nicholas Stix

    Dave Nalle: Heloise, crime has been consistently and dramatically declining in the US for the past decade. It’s the most substantial period of decline in the crime rate in US history. How does that fit with our paranoia about immigrant criminals?

    Dave

    What does what you just said have to do with immigration, Dave, or with what Heloise said? Your response was unresponsive.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Heloise said immigrants were criminals.

    I pointed out that during the decade when we’ve had all this immigration crime has gone down dramatically

    How is that confusing to you?

    Dave

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    Dave Nalle says:

    crime has been consistently and dramatically declining in the US for the past decade. It’s the most substantial period of decline in the crime rate in US history.

    And think how much MORE it would have declined had we not been importing millions of lawbreakers from south of the border.

    I can’t wait to hear you spin it, by arguing how it has actually been good for Americans to have imported hundreds of thousands of gang members and drug dealers from Mexico, Central America, and South America during the past decade.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Richard, how much more crime would have declined is largely supposition, but it’s an intriguing thought.

    The fact is that most of the problem immigrants aren’t actually from Mexico, and the criminal element is tiny when compared to the total. I agree completely – deport all the criminals – hell, just shoot them in the back of the head. Then keep the good, hard working immigrants and legalize them.

    Dave

  • http://www.nationalvanguard.com/ Richard Brodie

    Dave Nalle says, justifying employers breaking the law by hiring illegals: When the simple and essential process of operating a business efficiently and profitably requires you to break the law then it is the LAW which needs to be changed

    Neither Dave nor any of the other advocates of limitless Mestizo immigration, ever had an answer for this, so I’ll try one more time:

    So if high taxes, onerous and costly OSHA, EPA, and FDA requirements, exhorbitant required Workmans’ Compensation insurance etc. are interferring with the “efficient and profitable” operation of your business, I assume you think that it is equally acceptable for businessmen to ignore (i.e. break) THESE laws and not face punishment. Or is it only laws concerning illegal aliens that you regard as OK to break with impunity?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    You didn’t read what I said, Richard. I didn’t endorse breaking the law, I endorsed CHANGING the law when the law is breached on a regular basis in the pursuit of normal operation of commerce.

    This is not the case with OSHA, EPA and FDA regulations which are specifically designed to regulate business. Immigration laws are not part of the business regulation cannon.

    Dave

  • http://www.nationalvanguard.com/ Richard Brodie

    This is not the case with OSHA, EPA and FDA regulations which are specifically designed to regulate business. Immigration laws are not part of the business regulation cannon.

    Define “cannon”.

    You didn’t read what I said, Richard. I didn’t endorse breaking the law

    You said: “When … operating a business efficiently and profitably requires you to break the law …” (my emphasis)

    So you are saying that businessmen are REQUIRED to break the law, because paying a wage sufficiently high to attract American workers would make them less profitable.

    Is this not an endorsement of breaking the law against hiring illegals? And do you or do you not advocate PUNISHING employers who break this law? Becasue if you don’t then you ARE endorsing breaking the law.

  • http://www.nationalvanguard.com/ Richard Brodie

    To Dave’s assertion that EPA, OSHA, and FDA laws were part of the buisness regulatory “cannon”, but that the law against hiring illegals was not, I requested:

    Define “cannon”.

    No response? Well, let me define it for you.

    Cannonical laws are those which Dave Nalle approves of, and which he would advocate punishing employers for violating.

    There is one and only law which Dave Nalle does not annoint with “cannonical” status, and that’s the law which REGULATES businesses by forbiding them, EPA style, from POLLUTING the American workforce by INsourcing illegal alien employees; and by forbidding them, OSHA style, from ENDANGERING the livelihoods of American workers; and by forbidding them, FDA style, from engaging in an unproven social experiment with potentially sery serious DETRIMENTAL side-effects on the economic health of the American people, whose throats they are trying to shove it down.