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Ignorance Is Bliss?

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Integration, when I was in the fourth grade in East Tennessee, happened without much notice. The small number of black children who suddenly appeared at Rose School, the beautiful, now historic brick building that housed grades one through six, were assimilated without incident. Perhaps, it was because they were so small in number. Perhaps it was because there was no bus bringing them there. Perhaps it was because blacks had always lived in our town, albeit on the other side of town, where most of them would still live for many more years.

I didn’t notice at all. Having been one of the “others” in my own right since pre-school, when I had been subjected to my first incident of virulent anti-Semitism, I knew I was different, too; so more different kids seemed like a good thing to me.

I tested my mother’s Northern liberalism by openly dating black boys during high school and having them pick me up at the front door; Mom was charming although she did try to talk to me, calmly, about the difficulties of interracial dating. On the other hand, I picked up my good friend G. every Friday night and drove her to the projects to see her boyfriend and we both lied through our teeth about it to her mother who would have locked her in her room forever had she known she was involved with a black boy.

I have lived in the South most of my life, although I have spent a fair amount of time in the North also — summers on the Cape and Islands, school and work for ten years in New England, two stints living abroad, and a lot of overseas travel. I have made my peace with the South and would actually like to move farther South than Virginia; I dream of a house near the water in Beaufort, South Carolina, even though I hear it’s very hard to be a Democrat in that state.

Sometimes it’s hard to be a Democrat in Virginia, too, especially when the race for president involves a black man and people just don’t want to talk about it. Some Republicans actually make fun of it. And others disguise their racism by calling it something else. Or claiming, still, that Obama is a Muslim.

Actually people in the U.S. don’t want to talk much about race or class, witness the current financial crisis — which is a lot about class warfare and privilege and the greed of those who have money preying on those who have a lot less.

But I have been thinking more about race than any other issue lately because I think it’s going to make a difference in the presidential race. It’s going to make a difference even if we do talk about it. Although no one much is.

I wrote a column about it which appeared on HuffPo, but since then, as they say in the theater: A funny thing happened on the way to the forum.

In other words, in the couple of days that followed, all sorts of things began to happen. Besides the fact that while I was working on the article, I found pieces on Salon on race (finally, people were starting to write about it) and I had two rather extraordinary things happen to me on the same day.

Although I had personally run into both racism and ignorance in the small town in which I live (so much for those small town values Sarah Palin extols — although her comment was taken from a fascist writer Westbrook Pegler) I wasn’t quite prepared for a well- spoken, 80-year-old, undecided woman voter to tell me straight out that she was having trouble voting for Obama because he was, well, “I hate to have to tell you this, because you will think less of me, but, black.”

I spent twenty minutes with her on the phone, during which she admitted he was intelligent, committed, and a far better candidate than John McCain who she simply “could not vote for.” After I hung up, I just hoped I had convinced her to overcome her aversion to his race. She was born and raised in West Virginia, she said, and old attitudes were hard to break.

Another caller admitted to still being on the fence. She and her elderly mother were trying to gather all the information they could, but, still, she just couldn’t make up her mind. It seemed to her, she said, that all politicians were crooks and that none of them could get a darned thing done. I commiserated with her and told her that gridlock was a terrible thing and that Obama was committed to working with both parties but that it would be a challenge. I mentioned that McCain had been in Congress for 26 years and that it seemed to me that it was time for some new blood. We talked for a little longer and then she paused.

“Can I ask you a question?”

I allowed as she could indeed and that I would do my best to answer it.

She said that she had been wondering about something for some time and that she had asked and asked around and that no one she knew could help her out so that she thought she would ask me if I knew. She then said that it seemed to her that a lot more could get done if the president could just work alone and make all the decisions himself without congress and a lot of other people getting in his way, and didn’t I think so, and why wasn’t that a possibility?

I took a deep breath. I measured my voice. In no way was I going to condescend to this very sincere woman who was very seriously asking for my help.

“Well,” I said. “The Constitution of the United States provides for three branches of government…” And then I went on, and as simply as possibly, described the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches and their duties. I even explained how the House of Representatives is supposed to be the ones that makes the laws and sends them to the Senate and how in the best of all possible worlds, good laws are made and the president signs them, but if he does not agree, he won’t. I explained to her about checks and balances. And so on. I also told her that one man alone would be a dictator. And I named some more current dictators but sensing I was losing her, I mentioned Hitler. I heard her let out her breath in an Ohhhh.

“I see,” she said. “It’s more complicated than I thought. Thank you.”

We chatted some more and then I hung up and turned to the young man who runs the Obama headquarters.

“I just gave my first civics lesson,” I said, still in shock.

He shrugged. “A woman’s gotta do what a woman’s gotta do.”

In the days that followed, I asked several people I ran into if they could name me the three branches of government and tell me why we had them.

"Wait, wait, I know this," most people said. "I do, I do!"

I am seriously starting to think we need a mandatory civics exam given to every graduating high school senior. And it needs to be passed before he or she gets his or her voter registration card.

But the fact that people don’t know the Constitution is only the half of it. The other half is that, despite what the right would have the American public believe, the truth is that there is so much incredible garbage being spouted by right-wing idiots out there on radio and television that the American public is wallowing in ignorance right up to their pupiks (Yiddish for bellybutton).

And they don’t even know it.

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About Lisa Solod

  • Clavos

    I am seriously starting to think we need a mandatory civics exam given to every graduating high school senior. And it needs to be passed before he or she gets his or her voter registration card.

    Shades of poll taxes and other exclusionary policies!

    Your idea would most likely serve to exclude primarily the very people you champion; the poor and disadvantaged.

  • Clavos

    BTW, your idea is also unconstitutional…

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Clavos, out of all the good, heartfelt material in this article, you focus only on the apparently-not-literal suggestion of the civics test, as if that were the subject of the piece. Do you actually think that’s fair, or useful?

    PS Lisa, I grew up in Tennessee too. My first integrated school was in the 7th grade.

  • Clavos

    handy,

    I found it astonishing that a liberal would even give voice to such an idea.

    You may have found the comment to be “apparently-not-literal,” but what I read begins “I am seriously starting to think…”

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Ok, Clav: How about this: We start teaching civics in first grade, teach it in every grade, a little more advanced each time. Then, by 12th grade, the kids have it. They take a civics test, like statewide SOLS in Virginia and tests in other states…..

    And with that, we reform education so that teachers actually KNOW their subjects, get rid of Ed Schools, make teaching a professions, pay properly, reward performance, get rid of the stranglehold of teachers unions, get rid of tenure in lower education…..

    PS: It’s not just the poor and disenfranchised who are ignorant. Haven’t you seen Jay Leno’s bits on the street? And I’ll bet you donuts to dollars that Cindy McCain couldn’t name the three branches of government, either….

    PPS: Thanks, handyguy, for making sense once again.

  • Irene Wagner

    She then said that it seemed to her that a lot more could get done if the president could just work alone and make all the decisions himself without congress and a lot of other people getting in his way, and didn’t I think so, and why wasn’t that a possibility? Hello, Lisa Solod Warren. Don’t knock your elderly friend’s grasp of the Constitution. It sounds like she may actually be an Executive Order ghostwriter.

    50% of the population is at or below average intelligence, no matter how many civics tests are crammed for and passed (with perhaps a little help from sympathetic proctors.) Should an IQ test be administered instead of a civics exam? If there were a Constitutional amendment enfranchisement specifying an IQ requirement for enfranchisement, there should definitely be a “virtue” test required as well, for Intellect and Inclination to Oppress are often companion traits.

    Or, we could just let the system work the way it was designed to work, and hope that the vote of the Wise and/or Good trumps the vote of the Stupid and/or Evil.

  • Clavos

    @#5,

    A pity you didn’t put that in the article to begin with, Lisa. Had you done so, your point would have been unassailable.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Clav, bite me.

    Is that a personal attack?

    Okay, bullshit. You were just looking for something and you would have found something else. It was a rhetorical statement. Give me an effing break.

  • Clavos

    Oh my…

  • Mooja

    Cutting to the heart of the issue as I see it; the author is suggesting that the average U.S. citizen is too ignorant to properly decide who they would like as President and goes as far as denying a citizens right to vote had they fail a civics test. Though i’m not against more education I also don’t believe choosing a leader requires a civics major. You choose the candidate who you believe is most closely aligned with your beliefs and values and appears capable of executing their vision. You don’t need to know anything about the three branches of government to do that.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Nope. Never said it required a major. Just knowledge. A democracy is a wonderful thing, but it seems to me both a right and a privilege. Sure, you can vote if you’re stupid and uneducated…but then you get what you get.

    Sure, you don’t need to know anything about the Constitution or how our country runs to vote or even to be a citizen, but wouldn’t it be nice to think that people would graduate high school (mandatory in this country, or at least education until age 16 is, supposedly) knowing those sorts of things? I mean, what is the point of free education for all if we don’t teach people anything of value?

    The woman asked me a question to which she genuinely wished to know the answer, an answer she wasn’t getting anywhere else. I found that both tragic and troubling.

    BTW, the article was about racism and classism and a lot of other things, too. The general dumbing down of the American public and what we don’t know and what we don’t talk about.

    You want to talk about one issue, so be it. I think we’ve done that one to death. Or at least I have.

  • Mooja

    To the Author, If you are intent on getting your message out and truly affecting change it may be a good idea to not call a large portion of the people you are speaking to “idiots”, for instance. Don’t let your emotions override your sense of human decency.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Lisa has a legitimate point regarding both ignorance and pervasive racism in this country.

    Ignorance regarding our government, how it functions and how our electoral process works is rampant in all areas of the country including urban, suburban and rural communities. While the notion of a voting test is untenable (and as has been aptly pointed out, illegal,) more and better education regarding history, civics and economics as well, starting as early as possible is highly desirable. Sadly, those subjects are, more often than not, taught far too little and far too poorly.

    My wife has a former grade school mate who did not understand that Bush could not run for the presidency again. She had no inkling about constitutional term limits. She thought that Bush could be president until he chose to retire or died. I guess she got being a SC Justice confused with being president.

    I know that is only one anecdotal instance, but it is indicative of the level of understanding that too many people have.

    As to racism AND ignorance, just in the last couple of days, I have witnessed two disturbing examples of both. I live in Indianapolis. My neighbor hails from upstate New York. One thinks of that area of the country as being a part of the “elitist” east. However, I have become painfully aware that at least when it comes to the particular area of NY state my neighbor was born and raised in is more akin to the deep south than to New England.

    I get along pretty well with my neighbor, and on balance, I like him, but he is a racist. Often he laughingly threatens to sell his home to blacks, hoping to get a rise out of me. He has a brother who still lives in NY who won’t watch any sport that has black or hispanic players. He is a hockey fan. (Help me out here. I don’t follow hockey. Do any of the NHL teams have either Hispanic or black players on their rosters?) He hates Tiger Woods claiming that he must cheat somehow because no “darky” could honestly play golf that well.

    Yesterday, I met my neighbor’s daughter’s boy friend. Now this “boy friend” is probably in his mid 50s (the daughter is in her mid-40s and they both live in NY.) After only a few moments of introduction he noted that my neighbor told him that I had driven a cab in NYC. He wondered how I got that job since I wasn’t “dusky” enough. A bit later he spied the Obama sticker in the rear window of one of our cars. While he didn’t become abusive, it was obvious that his opinion of us had taken on a large chill. “Obama, huh? You mean you’d actually vote for that black cloud?” Yeah, “black cloud.” I said, yes indeedy, I will.

    Earlier this evening my wife and I were having dinner at a local cafeteria (cafeterias are big in Indiana) when a guy sitting with two others a couple of tables over said in a too loud voice that “by god, I ain’t votin’ for no muslim!”

    A lot of people watch and listen to Limbaugh and Hannity. Even more listen to other right wing talk radio programs of which there are dozens, perhaps hundreds. Right wing programs outnumber left wing shows something like eighty million to one. Many unquestioningly buy into the racist, jingoistic, hate mongering bullshit that these programs spew out pretty much 24/7 all across the land. It is with that attitude and lack of knowledge many people walk into the voting booth.

    B

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I found it astonishing that a liberal would even give voice to such an idea.

    When dealing with the people incorrectly termed ‘liberal’ in modern parlance, you have to sometimes reconcile their populist poses and their genuine elitism. Just look at their presidential nominee. He’s the living embodiment of that contradiction.

    As for Lisa’s article it’s very revealing. She outlines her history as a member of the privileged class and especially as part of the elite left. I think that she’s absolutely right in identifying racism as common among those of her class and political persuasion. But it’s only a part of a much broader elitism. If anything they despise poor and southern whites more than they despise those of other races.

    I come from that kind of background too. I got out and broadened my experience and discovered that while working class and rural people of all races tend to use more racist language, they are also much more accepting of people of different races and social classes in ways that really matter.

    As for ignorance, it exists in the rich and privileged as much as it does in the poor and poorly educated. It’s nice to know how the government is structured, but how much is it worth if you don’t understand the needs and beliefs of the people who make up the contemporary body politic? How much can you really help people you don’t understand. It’s the mentality of those who tell people what they should have rather than asking them what they actually believe they need.

    Dave

  • Condor

    “And with that, we reform education so that teachers actually KNOW their subjects, get rid of Ed Schools, make teaching a professions, pay properly, reward performance, get rid of the stranglehold of teachers unions, get rid of tenure in lower education” Lisa

    I’m not beating the NEA drum here, but have you taken a look at a praxas (sp) test? Those tests are mandatory for teachers every 4 years or so… in Virginia. The tests are also comprehensive in nature. I looked over the course material of a neigbor who was prepping for the battery and I was actually quite surprised at the body of knowledge contained therein.

    I can’t imagine a teacher passing the praxas battery and then being labled an idiot. I’m not sure about other states, and whether private schools require the testing or not, but it seems to me that if you want/desire english majors to be teaching basic sentence diagraming your taxable pockets must be very deep. Higher math and hard sciences perhaps, but english, lit, typing etc… any degree would probably suffice, along with a healthy (and verified) GPA.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Sometimes it’s hard to be a Democrat in Virginia, too, especially when the race for president involves a black man and people just don’t want to talk about it.

    From the Virginia Historical Society on Douglas Wilder, former governor of VA… He was the first elected African American governor in United States history. Oh yeah, he was a democrat too!

    The fucking south is SOOOOO racist!

    What a load of shit!

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Ignorance: the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

    Idiot: A foolish or stupid person. A person of profound mental retardation….

    Surely, all of you here at BC have dictionaries.

    Nowhere did I call anyone an idiot.

    If I am a member of a “privileged or elite” class it is only by virtue of my father, a first generation American’s hard work; his parents, Russian peasants, completely uneducaated, came over to escape the Russian pogroms; he went to college, the first and only of his family, on the GI bill, and supported his widowed mother all her life (she lived to be 99 1/2).

    Did ANY of you read the links in this article?
    They clearly documented that a large number of people stated they were not going to vote for Obama because he was black, and Virginia was specifically cited (see also my piece in HuffPo).
    But, no, Andy, Virginia is not alone.

    And Dave, using language is still offensive. Those working class people may accept people one on one, yes, and they may actually have people of different races in their family, but when it comes to voting, that is a whole different story.

    Condor, you need to realize that while the tests are hard, many teachers do not pass them. I am only asking that a civics curriculum be included in all school years, instead of being taught, as it is in Virginia, as a one-off, in middle school, where kids often quickly forget it, by the time it comes to graduate and exercise their right to vote.

    Dave, I already said ignorance exists across all classes, remember? You added nothing new to the discussion.

    I am just offering an opinion. That it would be more instructive to vote for a candidate who, rather than makes us like we would like to have a beer with him, makes us feel like he is, indeed more intelligent than we are, and might be able to do something good and right about running this country.

    Most of us could NOT run the U.S., including clearly, that Congressman from Georgia who called Obama uppity and who, when interviewed by Stephen Colbert, showed himself to be very close to an “idiot.” Perhaps some of us could. But I, for one, would like to choose a man or woman who was clearly more intelligent, more thoughtful, more creative, more nuanced, and vary more intelligent than the body of the Amerian people, but who would excite them into action and commitment to their country. That is what Obama is doing right now: getting people interested and involved again in our country and making them feel less complascent and more like they can do something more than just sit back and let someone else drive–especially someone who seems to be driving us right off a cliff.

    I would encourage all of you to follow the links in the article, especially the one that talks about the Republicns making fun of racism and the ones that link to the articles in Salon, and also the one in the last graf.

    You might also take into account my own personal history with anti-Semitism in this country, and realize that is has not stopped, even if it has gotten slightly less virulent, and realize that this wonderful country of ours still has a very long way to go to root out ignorance and true nastiness of The Other. Ask many Hispanics what they have been subjected to and how they are all lumped together, no matter if they come from Mexico, Central America, South America or Spain.

    Racism=ignorance. Ignorance=fear. Fear=making bad decisions for our country.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Lisa – Show us some statistics on people that are voting FOR Barry for no other reason than the color of his skin. I’d bet there are plenty.

    But of course, that’s a different kind of racism. That’s positive racism, I guess…so it’s okay.

    Why do liberals assume that Barry’s gonna lose because of the color of his skin. Why can’t you face the fact that your party put up for nomination the MOST liberal guy they could find and once again, it ain’t working? Not only did they put up the most liberal democrat in congress, he picked the third most liberal democrat in congress as his running mate!

    It may be a change, but it’s not the kind of change anybody wants! And blaming it on ethnicity, because it ain’t a race thing, we’re all part of the human race, as my BLACK cousin once told me, is just to much bullshit!

    And lastly, calling anyone that doesn’t vote for YOUR candidate a racist has surely got to be the best damned strategy I’ve ever seen in a political contest!!!

  • Doug Hunter

    “And lastly, calling anyone that doesn’t vote for YOUR candidate a racist has surely got to be the best damned strategy I’ve ever seen in a political contest!!!”

    It silences people in public forums when you level charges or racism, but I don’t think it’ll change what goes on in the privacy of the voting booth. And yes, between Hillary and Obama, who have the same policy positions, 90%+ blacks voted their skin tone.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Andy, I never said that everyone who doesn’t vote for Obama is a racist. I merely said that racism is a factor in this election and that no one wishes to talk about it. It makes people feel uncomfortable. People in American don’t like talking about race or class or anti-Semitism because they refuse to think they think like that, even when proved otherwise.

    And we DON’T assume he’s going to lose. At least I don’t, nor do many others working for him. We hope and pray he will win.

    I am SO glad you have a black cousin. Any Jews or homosexuals in your family?

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    you have to sometimes reconcile their populist poses and their genuine elitism. Just look at their presidential nominee. He’s the living embodiment of that contradiction.

    woo! republican talking pt #327. yay!

    there must be something comforting about taking threadbare old political cliches and weaving them into a shawl.

    modern politics, and the generated ‘discussions’, make me sick.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    As a matter of fact, I have a cousin who was gay, he passed a few years ago from HIV/AIDS…I have a very close friend who’s Jewish…I remember visiting his house back in the day and they had a tree up around Xmas. I pointed and said, WTF? He told me it was a Hannakah bush! I also found ham in the fridge and I won’t tell you what he said about his mother and her shopping habits, you’d probably find it offensive.

    The reason I bought up my cousin was because years ago, when I lived in AZ one of my neighbors asked me what I would do if one of my daughters dated outside her race…I said I didn’t know…I figured, if he treated her right then I wouldn’t be upset about it. When I bought this discussion up with my cousin. His response to me was…outside they’re race…what? You mean like a chicken or a pig or something? I honestly had never thought about it in quite that way before and I’ve never thought about it the same since.

    But I can tell from the tone in your comment that my bringing up the fact that I have blacks in my family is somehow a bad thing. I guess you equate it to something like, I have plenty of black friends…but see, it’s not like that.

    But you assume what you want, just like you assume that VA is a racist state, even though we were the first to EVER elect a black man governor.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Never said Virginia was racist, Andy, you inferred that.

    Said it was hard to be a Democrat here. It is. This is a red state. Might go blue this year, we shall see.

    Said that a percentage of whites in the state persist in thinking Obama is a Muslim, borne out by research (documented in piece, follow the links) despite much evidence to contrary, which they don’t want to read about or think about.

    Said good percentage won’t vote for him because he is black, also borne out by research.

    You draw your own conclusions, as always, and twist and turn things to your own liking, and then attack at will. And sit back, smug as ever.

    Might help if you learned how to read things properly, rather than read them skewed to your own political beliefs.

    Sorry, but I don’t think having a black cousin or a Jewish friend makes you an expert on anything, or even more enlightened. It’s not a BAD thing to have a black cousin, it just means you have a black cousin.

    (and p.s. in graf #2 it is “outside their race” not “they’re”)

    ‘Nuff said.

    Gotta run. Talk, as I have said before, amongst yourselves:)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Never said I was an expert on anything!

    This a red state that consistently elects democrats to everything except the presidency. A red state that elected the very first black governor, a democrat. You also said in that same comment…especially when the race for president involves a black man…you can pretend all you want, but your comment says you believe this is a racist state…it’s an EASY inference.

    You asked me if I had any homosexuals in my family and I answered you, then you throw the answer back in my face. Guess you didn’t like the answer? Don’t ask the fucking question!

    You’re one to talk, for a person who claims to have been an editor, I don’t see how it’s possible, you seem to have a problem with comprehension…still.

    Research usually involves trying to find a FEW points from folks that don’t think exactly as you do. But hey, the liberal bible (NYT) is more than enough for someone like you!

    Nice that you can take the time to correct my grammar though.

    Do you have any friends or relatives that don’t think like you? You can answer, I promise I won’t throw it back in your face like you did to me.

  • George

    If after all the bloody mess in the Wall Street, high oil prices and high unemployment, people still vote GOP, particularly the working class whites whose jobs could be lost due to the financial mess, outsourcing or whatever, racism is the reason. And after McCain’s victory, if Dick Durbin and other bleeding heart liberals try to help those racist working class whites who screwed them, they deserved to be called just that “bleeding heart liberals” who dont hold people responsible for their actions, just like they dont hold murderers responsible for their actions by supporting death penalty!

  • George

    “Never said Virginia was racist, Andy, you inferred that.”

    I live in Virginia. Most of Virginia is racist. If you are a minority, try Caroline County..if you are an Asian American male try walking there with a white woman in your arms. Also try Lynchburg, Danville, Warrenton, Chesapeake, Fredericksburg, Culpepper, Orange, Gordonsville and other towns nearby…if you are a minority of course.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Do any of the NHL teams have either Hispanic or black players on their rosters?

    Jarome Iginla, one of the best players in the NHL, is black. Then there’s Kevin Weekes, Johnny Oduya, Jamal Mayers, Georges Laraque, Donald Brashear, Mike Grier, Jean-Luc Grand-Pierre, Mark Fraser, Nigel Dawes, Trevor Daley, Dustin Byfuglien, Shawn Belle, and a few others. There are also a few black players in the minor leagues and in international play. Not that many, but it sounds like the guy must seriously be blind if he doesn’t think there’s any black players in the NHL.

    As for Hispanics, there aren’t many. However, being from NYC, the guy should be familiar with at least one: Scott Gomez of the New York Rangers.

    Lol.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    As a Devils fan I can say that Scott Gomes is an awesome player…I wish they’d kept him!

    I think Weekes used to play down here for the Admirals, now an AHL team, but when I saw him they were ECHL. Watching ECHL games is like watching the movie Slapshot!

  • Doug Hunter

    Andy,

    You’re missing the point. The leftist cult of victimhood requires preferably that one consider themselves a victim first. The author was quick to point out her victim street cred as a Jew or whatever in the article. Her questions were designed to show how out of touch with victimhood you were.

    They ask about ‘victim’ friends so they can say how out of touch you are, then if you have them, they ask about family. If you have those, then they say that even then you couldn’t understand their position, then if you admit that you yourself fall into one of the ‘victim’ categories they simply call you a turncoat or Uncle Tom or whatever.

    It’s lame and pathetic to those who recognize it but it’s a powerful weapon in the propaganda war.

    It’s easy to be a victim, to excuse your failures on your ‘underpriviledged’ status, to have everyone rooting for your ‘empowerment’. It’s very hard to hold yourself accountable. It’s the easy way versus a noble ideal. (tryin to get people to take responsibility for their own actions is sort of like trying to get people to not vote themselves a share of someone else’s money)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Thanks Doug, for clearing that up for me…I really get so confused sometimes!!!

    Does being the only male in a house full of females count for anything?

  • http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/39420/joanne_huspek.html Joanne Huspek

    Great article, Lisa. You did that woman a great service with your civics lesson.

    First of all, most people in this country don’t have a clue. I think that citizenship tests should be given to every high school senior. [Ducks from tomato throwers.] If you want to live here, pass the test. I would bet that not many could, yet our recent immigrants can.

    In the reverse of this discrimination, I know of blacks who routinely vote for blacks because of race. Does that make sense? Again, an example of voters without a clue.

    The most important thing is to look behind stereotypes, outward appearances, race, religion and anything else I missed that is extraneous, and vote your conscience with your head full of facts.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    A lot of truly offensive things have been stated above.

    But the most offensive is Dave stating:

    “I think that she’s absolutely right in identifying racism as common among those of her class and political persuasion. But it’s only a part of a much broader elitism. If anything they despise poor and southern whites more than they despise those of other races.”

    “I come from that kind of background too. I got out and broadened my experience and discovered that while working class and rural people of all races tend to use more racist language, they are also much more accepting of people of different races and social classes in ways that really matter.”

    This is a mantra that Dave prances out periodically deftly attempting to turn the tables against the left, a bit of acrobatics using smoke and mirrors in an effort to make people believe against all logic that it is the right that is the friend of minorities, that true racism lives only with the left. It is a small minded bit of slight of hand that makes people reading it sit up and think for a moment, but that, when seen in the light of day falls apart owing to its patent absurdity.

    To suggest that people who openly use the “N” word, who make racist jokes, who fly “stars and bars” flags from their front porches or the back of their pick-up trucks are at heart more accepting of blacks and other minorities is simply a load. Even people who are less openly hostile to minorities, those who could be counted as “closet racists” when it comes down to casting a vote, that racism will, in most cases, rule. Most such people align themselves politically and socially with the right and far more often than not vote the Republican line.

    B

  • George

    “You’re missing the point. The leftist cult of victimhood requires preferably that one consider themselves a victim first. The author was quick to point out her victim street cred as a Jew or whatever in the article. Her questions were designed to show how out of touch with victimhood you were.”

    Comment: Victimhood is a national pastime and not restricted to leftists. If it is not I am a black or Jew or any other minority, it is my jobs are being outsourced and I am being unemployed or our nation’s sovereignty is being violated by the sale of some corporation to China by both the right wing and left wing. Just as the bleeding heart liberals cry about someone on death row without asking him how it got him there, the bleeding heart conservatives cry about our nation’s sovereignty being lost by sale of our assets to Asia without talking about how we got to this point. Perhaps folks who ran the various financial institutions to the ground should be unemployed although I am not holding my breath.

    “They ask about ‘victim’ friends so they can say how out of touch you are, then if you have them, they ask about family. If you have those, then they say that even then you couldn’t understand their position, then if you admit that you yourself fall into one of the ‘victim’ categories they simply call you a turncoat or Uncle Tom or whatever.”

    Comment: White working class is not much different. They all voted for George Bush and them protested in front of the White House against CAFTA and asked me to help them. I asked them who they voted for. Majority voted for Bush. I told them they have to face the consequences of their actions. Problem is after the white working class votes for McCain due to race or whatever factor, when McCain sells them out, bleeding heart liberals such as Dick Durbin of Illinois would fight for them and so would Obama, although they had been screwed by this group time and again. Talk of Jesus turning the other cheek. Does not work in the real world.

    “It’s lame and pathetic to those who recognize it but it’s a powerful weapon in the propaganda war.”

    Comment: As I said it is an American pastime, white, black or otherwise.

    “It’s easy to be a victim, to excuse your failures on your ‘underpriviledged’ status, to have everyone rooting for your ‘empowerment’. It’s very hard to hold yourself accountable.”

    Comment: No working class white guy who demonstrated in front of the WH on that July 2005 morning thought he was responsible for his predicament. They did not want to hold themselves accountable either. Not very different from any minority in this country.

    “It’s the easy way versus a noble ideal. (tryin to get people to take responsibility for their own actions is sort of like trying to get people to not vote themselves a share of someone else’s money)”

    Comment: Always the case!

  • George

    “But it’s only a part of a much broader elitism. If anything they despise poor and southern whites more than they despise those of other races.”

    If poor and southern whites continue to vote their skin color rather than their pocket books and demonstrate in front of the White House to protest CAFTA saying that their textile jobs are going abroad or low price textiles are hurting them. and ask the Dems or the elites for help..they should be despised and not given any help. However, the bleeding heart liberals such as Dick Durbin and Barrack “on crack” Obama would cry for them and help them although they are not the constituents of these two senators. That is the problem with the bleeding heart liberals. They always side with the perpetrator such as a capital murderer on death row who killed a child or a poor southern white who voted his skin color rather than his or her pocketbook, instead of asking how they got into this predicament. This is the bleeding heart liberal for you!

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “But of course, that’s a different kind of racism.”

    How exactly does black people who use the criteria that a candidate is black equate to racism? Is this a new definition of the word? Unless they are not voting for McCain because he is white, it seems natural for some people to support a candidate who looks like them and may have similar life experiences as opposed to the guy who voted against honoring MLK with a national holiday.

    I think people should take more into consideration, but it’s their vote and they can use it any way they see fit. It’s not like all Republican voters are high-minded individuals who took ever factor into consideration before sticking us with Bush for a second time. Hell, those people should be identified and only get a 3/4 vote in November.

  • Mooja

    The Author doesn’t appear to know what she wrote. Did she read her own article?

    “Nowhere did I call anyone an idiot.”

    “…the truth is that there is so much incredible garbage being spouted by right-wing idiots out there…”

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Re comment #24

    Andy:

    I really don’t enjoy engaging with you, but I don’t like having my integrity impugned even less. I don’t claim to be an editor, I have been one and am one, and my credentials are impeccable. You may check me out, if you like.

    The fact that a traditionally red state elected a black governor does not mean it will go for a black candidate for president; it has had a long time and very powerful Republican Senator in John Warner, and many Republican governors, including Jim Gilmore who almost bankrupted the state; Mark Warner, a conservative Democrat, brought it back to life. The good thing about governors in Virginia is that they can only run for one term at a time. Virginia has not gone for a Democrat for president since 1964.

    I have no problems with comprehension, Andy, but I wonder…. did you take logic in college? Just because some whites won’t vote for a black candidate for president but did vote for a black governor (who was by most accounts a disaster) does not mean that the state is or is not racist. Neither conclusion follows logically. Virginia has a large black population, which might account for its voting for a black Democratic governor. But the fact that the state has not voted for a Democratic candidate for President in 44 years means that local versus national politics are very different. For example, we have found in our polling that a number of people will vote for Mark Warner but will not vote for Obama, precisely because he IS black.

    BTW, although it is none of your business, I have several immediate family members who do not think exactly as I do.

    And lastly, Andy: The definition of LIBERAL: 1.Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes or dogmas; free from bigotry 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

    I have no idea when the Right decided that it was such a dirty word. Sounds pretty good to me. Although anyone with any sense would call Obama a political Centrist.

    You might check out the New York Times magazine this coming Sunday. I just heard an interview with the author. There is to be a piece called “Case Study” which talks about and interviews students of Obama’s law classes at the University of Chicago. Sounds like he was the kind of teacher who will make a very good president. He encouraged open debate, was not dogmatic, and was very respected by his students, no matter what side of the political spectrum they came from.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Okay, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity ARE idiots. But the people about whom I was speaking in my article are not. It would help if you read more carefully….. and closely. I get the idea that you are just trying to pick a fight?

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Comment #29

    Doug
    This is about the most offensive thing I have read in a long time.

    “As a Jew or whatever…” I not only don’t feel like a victim, I don’t act like one either. The victims, alas, are people like you, who get off on pretending that giving people like me shit doesn’t matter and that it’s all part of the American Way and if we don’t like it we can’t just go “back” to Israel or Africa or Mexico or wherever the hell we came from.

    I take and have always taken full responsibility for everything I do, everything I am, everything I write, and every way I live. But then, I don’t really give a shit what you think….I just know someone needs to call you on your nastiness.

    I’m a tough cookie and I’ve withstood a lot of crap from people but your ugly screed and misrepresentation of my well researched article is one of the prime examples of what I was writing about. You well fall into the category of people I was writing about in my last paragraph. Keep on truckin’, Doug.

  • http://marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    But it’s only a part of a much broader elitism. If anything they despise poor and southern whites more than they despise those of other races.

    yet another in a long line of statements that seem to turn into fact if repeated often enough. standard fare.

    it’s such a sweeping generalization, like using the term “the left”, employed because it’s convenient to do so, simplifying and stifling the debate.

    for the record, i don’t despise anyone, not even people who seem to think i’m stupid because my views don’t align with theirs.

  • http://marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    It’s lame and pathetic to those who recognize it but it’s a powerful weapon in the propaganda war.

    you mean like taking somebody’s words, twisting them completely sideways, and then bemoaning statements that weren’t actually made or implied in any way?

    geezuz, no wonder people are so comfortable with the level of dishonestly in campaign advertising. they make up crap that’s actually worse…and are proud of it!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    it’s such a sweeping generalization, like using the term “the left”, employed because it’s convenient to do so, simplifying and stifling the debate.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I use the term ‘left’ because I think it is misleading to use the term ‘liberal’ as so many do. For many ‘liberal’ has become a pejorative term, and I also think that it is regularly used where it really doesn’t accurately describe the beliefs of those it is applied to. So by saying ‘the left’ I can include those who are considered liberals by many but without further muddying the term ‘liberal’.

    Dave

  • George

    “it has had a long time and very powerful Republican Senator in John Warner, and many Republican governors, including Jim Gilmore who almost bankrupted the state”

    Jim Gilmore misled Virginians with his no car tax mantra! Gilmore boy was and is a crook! However, not a confederate flag waver as George “the Macaca” Allen, another crook!

    “Mark Warner, a conservative Democrat, brought it back to life.”

    Glad the citizens of Virginia recognize this. Too bad he did not run for President. If he were the nominee, the Dems would be ahead by double digits and carrying a lot more states than Barrack Obama. The Obama phenomenon is a mistake of the Dems. Yes racism should not exist but it does. That is the reality and we have to live with it. You cannot force people to vote the way you want with a gun to your head. They do that in Zimbabwe and its white equivalents, Russia and Belarus.

    “For example, we have found in our polling that a number of people will vote for Mark Warner but will not vote for Obama, precisely because he IS black.”

    Reflected nationally as well. Despite assertions to the contrary by some writers including Steve Rothenberg, Presidency is the only post that the GOP can hope for in this cycle. Below the Presidency disaster lurks for the GOP. Had Warner been the nominee, he would have been elected President!

    “BTW, although it is none of your business, I have several immediate family members who do not think exactly as I do.”

    It is our business. Because we are all in this together. It may be personal to someone but not to me. It is not like a white female wanting to marry only a white male to have blonde blue eyed children. It may be racist thinking but does not affect me. The decision by your relatives do affect me. I cant do anything about it, but it does help me to anticipate.

  • bliffle

    I think it must be a hard job to be a racist. One has to constantly be on guard against liking someone of the despised race. When one does know a person of that race it must be wrenching to teach oneself to despise them.

    If one is a sportsfan it must be difficult to suppress admiration when one of the despised ones does something so marvelous on the field of play that a cheer arises involuntarily from within oneself.

    How hard one must be on oneself, to be so defensive.

    And yet, regardless of ones scorn, the despised person is unaware, has his life, is loved by his family, respected by his teammates and openly cheered by people that one thought to be ones own kind.

    How frustrating.

  • Clavos

    You certainly seem, I think, to have what appears to be a clear, comprehensive insight into life as a racist, bliffle.

    Is someone close to you a racist?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Watching ECHL games is like watching the movie Slapshot!

    Lol, indeed!

  • cuervodeluna

    The N word is alive and well in Gringolandia–especially in the “red” states.

    Obama doesn’t have a chance.

    A one-armed buck-toothed four-eyed genetically-challenged hill billy would beat him, hands down.

    Gringos, like other folks, tend to get the government they deserve.

  • Doug Hunter

    “This (#29) is about the most offensive thing I have read in a long time.”

    Really? You are very sheltered.

    Anyway, did you ever consider that labeling a whole race, group, or geopraphic region as racist or oppressive might just be offensive to those people?

    Capture that feeling you get when reading my post, that’s just what people on my side get when reading your rant. That’s the fuel for the fire that’s creating the divide in this country.

    Please stop throwing fuel on the fire. (especially if your going to get your little feelings hurt everytime the flame licks up at your hand)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Lisa,

    You say (comment #20) And we DON’T assume he’s going to lose. At least I don’t, nor do many others working for him. We hope and pray he will win (emphasis added).

    Dear me. Rather like a prayer before a football game that our team will win? What questions would Charles Gibson ask if Governor Palin said something like that about Senator McCain?

    Might I attempt to rephrase your comment? “We hope and pray that God has given us the wisdom to understand His will and that we will be acting in accordance with it by electing Senator Obama.”

    Is that better?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    Is that better?

    no, but the rephrase (which smacks of projection in multiple ways) is incredibly arrogant, snotty, and condescending.

    congratulations.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Your SIDE, Doug? What side is that? The asshole, ignorant, racist, anti-Semitic, anyone- who-even-claims-that-they-are-being-abused-or- prejudiced-against-is-a-whiny-victim-and-that-is-all-side? You mean THAT side?

    Did you even read my piece?

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I wrote a literate, true and real piece about how some people in my state will not vote for an intelligent black man merely because he is black, and, in addition, about how some people in this country choose to believe the lies that right-wing fear mongers continue to spread about that candidate instead of doing research and reading up on that candidate on their own.

    I added that a general misinformation and ignorance about our Constitution and our government in general adds to the populaces misunderstanding about what government can and can’t do for them and YOU have the hubris to call ME divisive?

    You are one piece of work.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Dan,

    What Mark said. I expected better of you.

  • Doug Hunter

    Lisa,

    I’m glad I could expose your hate for all to see. Let the public be the judge.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lisa, perhaps your mistake was in trying to draw broader conclusions based on a situation which may be peculiar to your state.

    In other parts of the south black politicians seem to do quite well on their own merits and no one on the right or left seems to think it’s unusual. Georgia and Texas are outstanding examples of this.

    Dave

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Dave, I didn’t make a mistake at all. Too many others agree me with, even if you don’t. And so did they on HuffPo. Just because black politicians do well in other states, and in Virginia, sometimes does not mean a black man won’t have trouble running for president…once again you didn’t follow the links and look at the research, did you? My piece was not local at all…it was a microcosm. If you really think racism exists only in Virginia, you are living in a dream world. If you think it exists only in the South, then you are really from another planet.

    And Doug, the only hatefilled person I see around here is you. There was nothing hateful about my article but tons of really hateful stuff from you. I responded in kind because you were mean, nasty, and horrible. I actually feel sorry for you.

    Actually, the public, including the editor who posted this piece, has been very supportive and wonderful. And a similar piece on HuffPo drew comments from around the United States, none a hate-filled, horrorshow like yours.

  • Clavos

    Months ago I posted a comment on one of these threads that I thought there were a lot of people in this country, particularly among blue collar union members and most of the rest of the lower middle class, as well as poor whites, who will not vote for a black simply because he/she is black.

    At that time, I was hooted down by the lefties.

    We shall see. I still think I’m right. I know too many people who fit these demographics who freely say they will not vote for BHO under any circumstances.

  • Cindy D

    RE# 53

    Lisa,

    I’m glad I could expose your hate for all to see. Let the public be the judge.

    Hating evil is a virtue Doug. It’s what your lack of empathy inspires.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I wasn’t on bc at the time, Clav, but this is one “leftie” if you persist in calling us that who might have agreed with you, at least about some of the people you mention. Although a story on the news caught my ears today. McCain visited a GM plant and was greeted by the entire floor of workers wearing either Obama pins or tee shirts. They allowed him, politely, to speak, and then chanted Obama, Obama, Obama, until he left. I think the unions are going for Obama. Some people will persist in their racism, as people always do. But I still believe Obama will prevail.

    And Cindy D. Thanks, you nailed it!!!!

  • Dan

    Biffle #44:

    “I think it must be a hard job to be a racist. One has to constantly be on guard against liking someone of the despised race. When one does know a person of that race it must be wrenching to teach oneself to despise them.

    If one is a sportsfan it must be difficult to suppress admiration when one of the despised ones does something so marvelous on the field of play that a cheer arises involuntarily from within oneself.

    How hard one must be on oneself, to be so defensive.”

    This is such a fundamentally flawed interpretation of a white racist viewpoint, I can’t help myself but to chance the inevitable hatred and loathing that correcting it will incur.

    White racist’s don’t “despise” people of other races. They simply accept that there are natural racial group differences that account for the reality that is seen in everyday life. Emperical reality matches with their considered opinions.

    In the sports example, for example, White racists don’t fret that probably 64 starting recievers for the NFL are black. It comports to their perception of the reality of group differences. They genuinely cheer and feel affection when one of those guys scores for their team. They want the best players to be at those positions.

    Far harder, I would think, would be the difficulty for anti-white racists, who have to invent excuses and victimhood–sometimes bordering on the absurd–for every negative discrepancy they see in life.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You’re right, reading that defintion, you don’t deserve the term.

    You try to tell me that you didn’t say VA was racist and then in all the following comments you keep preaching that Barry won’t get the vote in VA because he’s black! I guess it’s my comprehension that’s the problem. Maybe you can explain to me how saying that VA won’t elect him because he’s black doesn’t equate to VA is racist. Please, I’m honestly asking!

    On a side note…I fall into a different category of Virginian. I won’t vote for Barry because he’s the most left leaning candidate that’s run for president in my life time. And I’m voting for Warner.

  • Cindy D

    White racist’s don’t “despise” people of other races. They simply accept that there are natural racial group differences that account for the reality that is seen in everyday life. Emperical reality matches with their considered opinions.

    Dan,

    Is that what you tell yourself?

  • troll

    …what is amazing is how ‘empirical reality’ matches so many contradictory ‘considered opinions’

  • George

    “White racist’s don’t “despise” people of other races. They simply accept that there are natural racial group differences that account for the reality that is seen in everyday life. Emperical reality matches with their considered opinions.”

    I agree. Empirical reality based on the current financial and airline industry crisis clearly indicate that whites at least white Americans cannot run anything worth a damn. All they can do is talk about black people being incompetent and inferior. But, black inferiority in Zimbabwe does not affect my livelihood while white incompetence in Wall Street does. Empirical evidence has shown that white Americans cannot run airline or transport corporations. The transport corporations run by white Americans have made profits in three out of the last twenty or so years. Great achievement!

    “In the sports example, for example, White racists don’t fret that probably 64 starting recievers for the NFL are black. It comports to their perception of the reality of group differences. They genuinely cheer and feel affection when one of those guys scores for their team. They want the best players to be at those positions.”

    In the finance and airline example, for example, people world over fret that probably 99% of the CEOs and board members are whites who have run the corporations to the ground and now want taxpayer bailout. It comports to their perception of the reality of group differences. They genuinely worry and fret when one of these corporations run by white incompetents come to the feds for rescue or ask the Chinese to rescue them. They want the best players to be at those positions in boards and CEOs, and if these white incompetents are the best they have in America (I would agree that affirmative action may not be a good thing), I think the jobs should be moved abroad, corporations should be taken over by foreigners and all these white incompetents need to be fired. All these white incompetents who cannot even run a financial industry claim that foreign techies get jobs because of low wages. I say foreign techies get jobs because some employer such as Boeing or Microsoft is afraid of getting sued if they employ white American incompetents. Just imagine what would happen if they had paid all these chaps twice the going wage as some anti-immigrant groups want and they design our aircraft..it would be falling over some suburb of Northern Virginia resulting in class action lawsuit.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, I didn’t make a mistake at all. Too many others agree me with, even if you don’t.

    Lisa, I agree with the validity of many of your observations, I just don’t think you’ve necessarily reached the right conclusions.

    And so did they on HuffPo.

    HuffPo is hardly a broad and knowledgable audience. To find a more small-minded audience you’d have to go to Democratic Undereground or DailyKos.

    Just because black politicians do well in other states, and in Virginia, sometimes does not mean a black man won’t have trouble running for president…

    And just because some people are racist on certain levels that does not mean that they won’t vote for a black man for President, especially one like Barack Obama whose ethnicity is very secondary to his other qualities.

    Anonce again you didn’t follow the links and look at the research, did you? My piece was not local at all…it was a microcosm. If you really think racism exists only in Virginia, you are living in a dream world. If you think it exists only in the South, then you are really from another planet.

    You seem to have missed (ignored) my point. I think racism and especially institutionalized racism is LESS prevalent in most of the south. It seems to be most common among the elite left who engage in passive racism and exploitative race and class warfare and in working class whites in the north who are more openly racist on a day to day basis.

    Having lived in the northeast and the south I can say with some certainty that southern society is far more integrated and accepting of race on a day to day basis, while northern society practices powerful de-facto segregation to this day.

    Dave

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    actually having lived in both places I think racism in the south is more in your face and less subtle and I LIKE that about the south…

    and I think Obama will win the race, but I am afraid he won’t take Virginia or many other Southern states.

    And what I didn’t say in piece but probably should have is that Obama is as white as he is black, ie., he is half and half, but in this country if you’re half and half, you’re black. It’s always been that way and I don’t get it.

  • cuervodeluna

    Oh really, Dave?

    My daughter was in Charleston and Savannah 2 weeks ago, and she heard the N word EVERYWHERE–for the first time in her life!

    Now, maybe you can tell me those cities are not in the south….

  • George

    “Having lived in the northeast and the south I can say with some certainty that southern society is far more integrated and accepting of race on a day to day basis, while northern society practices powerful de-facto segregation to this day.”

    That is why Massachussetts has a black governor and Washington State had a Chinese American governor and Hawaii (ok, not literally the north) has a white governor in a majority Asian state and New Mexico which had a white minority elected many white governors. The only exception in the South is Virginia for blacks. Louisiana has an Indian American governor, but the fact is many clowns who voted did not even know that he was Indian-American!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    For the first time in her life? What, you have no TV, no radio? Is your daughter about four years old? Never watched a music video? LIved in a cave? Do you keep her in a closet?

    Or, as your argument suggests, are you just BSing to try to make a point?

    Did she come up to you and say, “Daddy, what does the N-word mean?”

  • cuervodeluna

    Andy–

    1. First of all, I am not a man. So it’s unlikely that my daughter wouild call me “dad”. besides, her dad died 2 and a half years ago.

    2. Perhaps, for the folks with less than subtle minds on this forum, I should have said:

    She heard the N word EVERYWHERE in common usage used by everybody in stores in restaurants on the street in their houses for the first time in her life.

    I did not keep her in a closet, but she was born in Northampton, Massachusetts, then lived in Seattle, Washington, then for 10 years in New Mexico and has been living in Seattle again for 15 years.

    This poster is not in the habit of “just BSing”, nor in the habit of promoting redneck values.

  • George

    “I did not keep her in a closet, but she was born in Northampton, Massachusetts, then lived in Seattle, Washington, then for 10 years in New Mexico and has been living in Seattle again for 15 years.”

    Washington State and Virginia are like day and night as far as racism is concerned. Lot more racism in Virginia..well I modify that, outside of DC suburbs. It starts in Prince William County.

  • cuervodeluna

    Right.

    The ORIGINAL point I was making was to refute Nalle’s claim that the South is far more accepting of race on a day to day basis than the north.

    And, so that there is no further confusion, I believe that the US is wildly racist–and that it is just more OBVIOUS in the South.

  • Doug Hunter

    “My daughter was in Charleston and Savannah 2 weeks ago, and she heard the N word EVERYWHERE–for the first time in her life!”

    You must be talking about Charleston WV and not SC. I lived in Charleston, SC for years. The vast majority of whites are trained to never utter the word nigger in any form of company. A majority are too scared to even type it in context for fear of PC backlash. I’m calling BS on your story. What restaurant did you overhear this language at? What area of Charleston or it’s suburbs were you staying?

  • cuervodeluna

    Doug:

    1. I believe you are calling me a liar, so you had better have proof of it. I do not take kindly to personal attacks.

    2. Although you quoted my post where I said “my daughter”, apparently you were so hot under the collar that you didn’t realize what you were quoting? I am NOT my daughter–nor am I her father.

    3. And SHE–not I–flew in and out of Charleston, SC–and made no mention of going to Charleston, WV, which BTW I believe is also a city in the South.

    4. You need to get a grip, man.

  • Doug Hunter

    Yes, I believe your story is a gross exaggeration. You have no more proof of it than I have against it. Again, having lived there for years and not witnessing this it seems extremely unlikely that this open racism and bigotry made itself apparent on a short trip. That’s why I asked for clarification about locations, etc. as I’m fairly familiar with many of the popular areas.

    Being a white male (which would make racists more forthcoming with their slurs and language I believe) I very rarely heard any of this. Your daughter visits on a short trip and supposedly hears slurs openly bandied about in public areas. Something doesn’t jive there and I believe personal experience over something I read online.

    I find it more likely that she had her southern stereotype in mind, perhaps heard one insensitive comment about Obama or something, saw a couple confederate flag bumper stickers and just let her imagination run wild from there.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I’ve only driven through Charleston a few times, but I’ve spent a bit of time in Savannah. If you heard the N-word being used there in the last 20 years it wasn’t being used by a white person unless you move in very strange circles.

    I’m sure you could hear the N-word (god I hate that euphemism) in any northern or southern city used by african americans.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Dave

  • cuervodeluna

    What both of you Godd Ole Boys are missing are:

    1. The topic and the point of this article that the thread proceeds from, and

    2. When YOU TWO Good Oles were in Charleston and Savannah an African-American man was not a presidential candidate.

    Two weeks ago, when my daughter was there, one most assuredly WAS.

    DUH.

  • http://miriamsideas.blogspot.com miriam

    Lisa:

    Too bad you think the American people are too ignorant to choose their own leaders, and need a civics test. I always believed that the voice of the people was the voice of God–vox populi vox dei, to put it in its original Latin.

    Whoever we choose to elect president, the republic will survive.

  • George

    “Too bad you think the American people are too ignorant to choose their own leaders, and need a civics test. I always believed that the voice of the people was the voice of God–vox populi vox dei, to put it in its original Latin.”

    Every white working class man and woman and the poor whites in textile factories has a right to vote for McCain. But McCain has a right to push through free trade treaties and unemploy these whites if he campaigned on that issue and these whites chose to ignore it because of their bigotry and every public servant should support the free trade treaties pushed by McCain and enforce the will of the people particularly the white working class people who voted for McCain.

  • cuervodeluna

    Miriam,

    A history test would be useful here, as I believe it was Henry Kissinger who paid for a military coup on Sept. 11, 1973 in Chile and had a lot of folks killed because he decided that THEY should not have been allowed to choose their own leader.

    So, it looks like there is a fair amount of institutionalized precedent for the point of view you just criticized.

    And Kissinger even has a Nobel Peace Prize for killing all those people in several different countries.

    Ignorant people will always elect ignorant leaders, however–which is why the US people, as well as most other countries, have the government that they deserve.

  • Lumpy

    oh come on. sometimes ignorant people elect smart and cynically manipulative leaders too.

  • Derik

    As far as a civics exam, that could be legally and logistically impossible. After all, the constitution is now somewhat like the good old bible. The people being governed have both interpreted for them. In essence, outsourced to “priests”. We are truly lucky to have such lack of “ignorance is bliss” or should I say unlucky. I often wonder, when the “ancient” greeks and others stood there and surveyed the “people” and wrote some great things … what were they thinking … were they idealistic or did they weep and write … obviously, nothing and everything has changed … in more recent times, General Grant and Sherman, I think, wondered and went on and made sure our constitution survived. Maybe, what we really have left is the constitution. Without which, we would regress the magic of evolution from which the next stage of evolution would happen anyhow. We surely could have goofed around and quit doing our homework during those distant college days. After all, ignorance is bliss and knowledge is sometimes a slippery slope. Then again, it surely has given me such a joy these years. Keep up your good work, Lisa!

  • Dan

    Cindy D #61: “Dan,

    Is that what you tell yourself?”

    Yes, in the same sense that I “tell myself” that water is wet, or Christmas is in December.

    George #63: “The transport corporations run by white Americans have made profits in three out of the last twenty or so years. Great achievement!”

    Southwest Airlines is a transport corporation, They’ve turned a profit for 33 consecutive quarters. With an anunalized stock return of over 20%. $10 thousand invested 30 years ago would be worth about 10 million today.

    “In the finance and airline example, for example, people world over fret that probably 99% of the CEOs and board members are whites who have run the corporations to the ground”

    Then it’s the “people world over” who are racist, unlike the white sports fans. The “people world over” are also wrong about corporations run to the ground. (southwest example) Even if…it’s only successful corporations that can be ran to the ground by “White incompetence”. So there must have been some white competence to start with, according that logic. In reality there are winners and losers in a free market capitalist system.

    “They genuinely worry and fret when one of these corporations run by white incompetents come to the feds for rescue or ask the Chinese to rescue them.”

    Now that the Chinese have mimicked elements of the successful free market capitalist system that whites pioneered, they have money to invest. They choose to invest it in stable democracies with low debt to GDP ratios.

    The current financial “crisis” is based on large part by liberal democrat members of congress who engage in social engineering thinking that banks should be forced to loan money to people with risky credit ratings. It’s silly to think that banks are motivated by racism over profits. And once again, this fundamental misunderstanding will cost all.

  • George

    “Southwest Airlines is a transport corporation, They’ve turned a profit for 33 consecutive quarters. With an anunalized stock return of over 20%. $10 thousand invested 30 years ago would be worth about 10 million today.”

    One poor example sorry! For every Southwest Americans have USAir, Delta, Northwest, Continental, United and American, not forgetting Frontier which is in bankruptcy. Not much of a record there by incompetent whites. So for every one competent white CEO there are six incompetents. Add to that Fuld, Mudd and host of others at financial institutions! Incompetent white Americans continue to pile up. Someone asked me why GOP is not paying attention to incompetent blacks being admitted into UCLA in contravention of the AA ban? The answer is simple. They are busy rescuing the country from incompetent whites…at least Paulson is. I am glad Singapore DBS fired John Olds the white American CEO…one of the white incompetents who ran Bear Sterns to the ground!

    “Then it’s the “people world over” who are racist, unlike the white sports fans. The “people world over” are also wrong about corporations run to the ground. (southwest example) Even if…it’s only successful corporations that can be ran to the ground by “White incompetence”. So there must have been some white competence to start with, according that logic. In reality there are winners and losers in a free market capitalist system.”

    Comment: White competence, perhaps forty years ago perhapss, not anymore. Southwest Airlines..one out of seven airlines. Six run by white incompetents charging for checked bags and one run by a competent. Several airlines run by competent non-whites have done well. Among them the top is Singapore Airlines, followed by ANA, Cathay Pacific and Emirates among others. So your Southwest example rings hollow. White Americans cannot run airlines worth a damn. True, there are a lot of competent white CEOs. These would rather move engineering jobs to Singapore because they know most white Americans cannot count without a calculator!

    “Now that the Chinese have mimicked elements of the successful free market capitalist system that whites pioneered, they have money to invest. They choose to invest it in stable democracies with low debt to GDP ratios.”

    Comment: Whites did not pioneer free market capitalism.

    “The current financial “crisis” is based on large part by liberal democrat members of congress who engage in social engineering thinking that banks should be forced to loan money to people with risky credit ratings. It’s silly to think that banks are motivated by racism over profits. And once again, this fundamental misunderstanding will cost all.”

    Most of them white people..again most congressmen, Democrat or otherwise are incompetent.

    White incompetents are more dangerous to world security than black incompetents. Black incompetents have very little power. White incompetents do.

    There was once a book: Invisible Victims: White Males and the Crisis of Affirmative Action.

    I am contracted to write one as well: It is called. Invisible Victims: White Male Incompetents and the American Financial Crisis.

  • Cannonshop

    Just for a moment, George, contemplate this:

    “INCOMPETENTS and the American Financial Crisis”.

    and HOW did they become incompetent? they went to the very best Ivy-League Schools to learn, that’s how. They bought into all the buzzwords and codewords and peripheral shit that made them look right to “The right people” and learned to get invited (and invoted) to the correct parties, learned how to contribute to the correct politicians, everything except basic principles like “You shouldn’t loan money to people who don’t have collateral, or JOBS, or an Income.”

    They learned from their daddies and their Professors how to make sure that the risks were socialized and the profits private, and they learned how to ease their guilt by contributing to non-profits (along with their tax-burdens) and embracing the causes that would make them feel better about being the crooks they are.

  • George

    “and HOW did they become incompetent? they went to the very best Ivy-League Schools to learn, that’s how. They bought into all the buzzwords and codewords and peripheral shit that made them look right to “The right people” and learned to get invited (and invoted) to the correct parties, learned how to contribute to the correct politicians, everything except basic principles like “You shouldn’t loan money to people who don’t have collateral, or JOBS, or an Income.””

    Who knows how they were admitted back in the 1960s. With Asian and Asian-American competition they probably wont be admitted now! A white Economics Professor at Ivy League told me that he would not be admitted at Cornell with the amount of competition from Asians and Asian-Americans today. And these CEOs were most likely legacies getting preferences because their dads are alumni. No different than unqualified African Americans getting through AA.

    “They learned from their daddies and their Professors how to make sure that the risks were socialized and the profits private, and they learned how to ease their guilt by contributing to non-profits (along with their tax-burdens) and embracing the causes that would make them feel better about being the crooks they are.”

    That is what you think. GW did not learn from GHW. He went to Ivy League was a C student, He was a legacy.

  • Cindy D

    miriam,

    Lisa:

    Too bad you think the American people are too ignorant to choose their own leaders…

    Okay if it isn’t ignorance, then I guess it must be actual stupidity. Which is what I think it is.

    Probably comes from watching too much TV. Puts ‘em in a fantasy world where they don’t have to actually look at the real one.

  • bliffle

    Dan, thanks for re-enforcing my point in #59.

    “They genuinely cheer and feel affection when one of those guys scores for their team.”

    As one might feel for a good birddog, I imagine.

    An old white southern gentleman once told John Steinbeck:

    “we were taught to think of them as animals, because if we had thought of them as people we would have wept”.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I haven’t commented on my own article because I think the comments have degenerated completely, but I offer this new poll.

    I do NOT think, had the pollers polled Republicans who were running a black candidate, it would have been any different. This is NOT a Democratic “problem.” It is an AMERICAN issue. And it is tragic.

    We can only hope that reason and ultimately common sense will make voters vote on issues and not racial prejudice.

  • cuervodeluna

    I think what’s really under all of this condescending and posturing and scolding by the author of this piece has nothing much to do with being black.

    And everything to do with being Jewish.

    And I think it would be useful to come clean on the issue, as US knee-jerk support for Israel–if I am not mistaken–is, or SHOULD BE, an issue in this election campaign.

  • cuervodeluna

    Just in case that was unclear, one of the reasons that I would not vote for either candidate is that BOTH (backed by Big Guns, of course) are 100% in support of Israel.

    And I am 100% in support of de-countrifying Israel and giving that little piece of land BACK to the Palestinians.

    WHY?

    Because Israel has been committing genocide against the Palestinians since the Brits bailed out on the Palestine Mandate.

    And because MY people were victims of genocide here on Turtle Island, I am not in support of folks who advocate genocide as their geopolitical priority–be they Israelis OR Gringos.

  • bliffle

    I’m about 51% in favor of supporting Israel because it’s the best chance we humans have of solving The Jewish Problem, and because I think the palestinians claims are spurious, that they’re trying to blowup the inconvenience of a couple hundred thousand loiterers into a Noble Cause, and that all they want to do is steal someone elses earned wealth.

  • Doug Hunter

    Lisa,

    I followed your link and read the information about bigotry.

    The first line says “one-third of white Democrats harbor negative views toward blacks — many calling them ‘lazy,’ ‘violent’ or RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN TROUBLES.”

    So now considering people responsible for their own situation is bigotry… got it. I suppose the only way to ‘pass’ the test is to say that blacks troubles are caused by whites, no by their own actions. Just another piece of social (non) science garbage designed to serve as a leftist propaganda tool.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    By that logic then we white people are also lazy, violent and responsible for our own troubles; if that is black people thought we were. Or, say, if black or white people THOUGHT Jews were money hungry, in charge of Hollywood and responible for the Iraq war and disliked us because of that, then that would be all right, too.

    Harboring negative feelings toward another race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, etc., based on spurious reasoning is called prejudice.

    Prejudice: An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. A preconceived preference or idea.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Sorry, I forgot to enclose “that is” in commas.

    The sentence should read …if, that is, black people thought we were.

    (long day)

  • Clavos

    By that logic then we white people are also lazy, violent and responsible for our own troubles…

    Don’t know about the lazy or violent parts, but most PEOPLE, regardless of race, national origin, or religion, ARE responsible for their own troubles — usually because of making bad choices.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Doug, isn’t writing about blacks as a single coherent group somewhat racist? There are lazy or violent people to be found right across the skin colour spectrum, just as there is with stupid people.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Doug, isn’t writing about blacks as a single coherent group somewhat racist?” – Chris

    Yes, probably. You should address that with the authors of the though study, not me. I’m all in favor of a colorblind society and don’t think any of this is helpful.

    I am very skeptical of anyone, like the author of this article, that seeks to bring race or racial tension to the forefront. It’s a sad political ploy used by both sides to stoke fear and divisiveness into the population in hopes of motivating people to vote. When I see evidence of this I point it out, hence my comments here.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Yes, Clav, you are right. But how odd of people to dislike others for being responsible for what their own lives have brought them. We should all be responsible for our own lives. Although bad things do often happen without our being complicit. I suspect you know that as well as I.

    And Doug, how very very bizarre of you to call me out for reporting what others are saying and for citing a poll of Americans. As if I am somehow responsible for the opinions of others,

    Oh, I get it. If you do not write it, it does not happen..

    If their racism bothers you, don’t read it. Don’t comment. But do not blame the messenger. It is not I who is fearmongering or fostering. I would rather the world were colorblind, too… and that we could all live happily as one.

    But we do not, at present.

    If you wish to believe that we do, and that articles about reality are responsible for the ills that befall us, I suggest you go live on some deserted island and pretend that the world is a perfect place with no war, no hate, no prejudice or evil, and that everyone is intelligent, thoughtful, kind and wonderful all the time.

  • Dan

    George #83: “Several airlines run by competent non-whites have done well. Among them the top is Singapore Airlines, followed by ANA, Cathay Pacific and Emirates among others.”

    Singapore airlines has 94 planes. Yes, they are a well run business model, and growing. But all airlines are struggling with high fuel costs. And some go out of business. Oasis Hong Kong Airlines for example. U.S. airlines are relatively financially healthy and more than Southwest are still turning profits. Northwest, for example, is forcasting 60-100 million in profit for this third quarter. A small few are struggling because of the unprecedented rising costs of fuel, but losses 3 out of the last 20 years? Delusional.

    Here’s an interesting bit of Data from the International Air Transport Association:

    “IATA records Africa as having the highest number of airplanes lost per million sectors flown, the rate being 4.09 in 2007. By way of contrast, the North American rate was 0.09, European rate 0.29, Asia & Pacific 2.76. Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States, surprisingly, had a zero rating, the best, meaning no loss of aircraft that year”

    So for the latest year Asia & Pacific airlines have accidents second only to Africa and 31 times higher than the North American rate. No incompetence there I suppose.

    “…they know most white Americans cannot count without a calculator!”

    Well then, they can do it on an invention by 3 guys named Jerry, James, and Jack, a developement team from Texas instruments. One of many innovations white Americans have pioneered, (along with airplanes, and successful airline business models, and prosperous free market capitalist systems) and generously shared with the rest of a sometimes ungrateful people in the rest of the world.

    Biffle: “Dan, thanks for re-enforcing my point in #59.

    “They genuinely cheer and feel affection when one of those guys scores for their team.”

    As one might feel for a good birddog, I imagine.”

    I believe your original point was that white racists “despise” non-whites, and that it must be difficult to always “be on guard against liking someone of the despised race.” And that “it must be wrenching to teach oneself to despise them.” And that they need to stifle cheers for sportsmen of the “despised” race.

    So what are you saying now? That white racists despise bird dogs?

  • Doug Hunter

    “I suggest you go live on some deserted island and pretend that the world is a perfect place with no war, no hate, no prejudice or evil, and that everyone is intelligent, thoughtful, kind and wonderful all the time.”

    You may be right. I could be viewing the world through rose colored glasses a bit. I just don’t assume that I’m thoughtful, intelligent, and kind while everyone else is evil, hateful, and ignorant. I like to believe that most people are good at heart they just get a little overly confident in their ‘rightness’ and take an ends-justify-the-means outlook.

  • Cannonshop

    “Be most wary of the man who would do you ‘good’, for there is no limit to the evils he will put you through in the name of that cause.”

    People, regardless of their backgrounds, are largely responsible for what happens to them. Then again, I don’t believe in “accidents”, only Negligence or Malice (with the possible exception of earthquakes and vulcanism, which are both still pretty poorly understood and hard to accurately predict.)

    People are also largely lazy, self-serving, spiteful, hateful, and every other negative adjective-but they’re also largely kind, self-sacrificing, wise, tolerant, and all the virtues-depending on the circumstances and to a certain extent the proportions within their character-a thing that is a matter of choice (there are exceptions-but that’s where the qualifier “Largely” comes in).

    Pain is a wonderful teacher, particularly if it’s the result of screwing up or being negligent/malicious. Sheild people from it too much, and they don’t learn anything from their mistakes.

    Thus, socializing the Risk is inherently a bad idea-when such socializing is tied to privatized profit, it’s a recipe for disaster, and bailouts become nothing more or less than a band aid and morphine over a case of spreading gangrene- it might temporarily ease the pain, but it does nothing to stop the damage or save the patient.

    The only way to stop the damage, is to remove the rot before it infects healthy tissue. In societal terms, this means that there are a host of people who need to go to jail-and not minimum-security golf jail either-executives that need to share cell-space with armed robbers, murderers, and other forms of violent felon, that they may experience some of the pain they’re causing millions upon millions of people who had nothing to do with the crimes they perpetrated save being caught in the ripples. What caused the current crisis is a CRIME. The Crime is FRAUD. The FRAUD may well cripple the economy worldwide, and worse, WILL cause the needless deaths of people who committed no crime, not even of negligence. When an Armed Robber shoots a gas-station attendant, he’s harming one family, the heads of these banks committed crimes that harmed MILLIONS, possibly hundereds of millions, of families. When someone’s sole measure of morality is “Is it Legal” then the Law must be unforgiving and harsh.

  • Clavos

    Lisa says, in #58:

    Although a story on the news caught my ears today. McCain visited a GM plant and was greeted by the entire floor of workers wearing either Obama pins or tee shirts. They allowed him, politely, to speak, and then chanted Obama, Obama, Obama, until he left. I think the unions are going for Obama.

    According to this article, published at Real Clear Politics, unions are far from being a lock for Obama, mostly because of his race. The article notes:

    You just knew that when Joe O’Connell, former head of the local AFL-CIO, got on stage here with John McCain and Sarah Palin things were not going smoothly for the Obama campaign among union voters.

    “I am a lifelong Democrat, an intelligent Democrat, who is supporting John McCain,” O’Connell said last week as a crowd of 7,000 waved “Another Democrat for John McCain” signs and roared its approval.

    O’Connell assured the energized crowd that “organized labor will have a seat at the table when John McCain becomes president.”

    It’s the kind of statement that Pennsylvania AFL-CIO President Bill George does not want to hear.

    “It’s a problem,” George admits, “but we are in an all-out effort to educate our members that the Democratic Party is the only one for working families.”

    He is not exaggerating when he says “all-out effort” – just try following him for a day and you’re exhausted by the events, focus groups and sit-downs in which he participates.

    Democrats count on unions for get-out-the-vote efforts and for the support of members and their families. Without them, states such as Pennsylvania and Ohio — which each have about 740,000 workers who belong to unions, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics — would move into the Republican column.

    George narrows the problem down to race. “There is no question, earlier in the primary campaign the racial issue was there, just like the gender issue was with Hillary for some unions,” he says.

    “We in America like to think we don’t have any hang-ups or stereotypes. But because of our history and because of a lot of industrial psychology controlling the masses, people have innate prejudices.”

    George says that the mind-set of some people in the labor movement regarding race is no different than it is in church groups, or in the Republican Party.

    Joe Rugola is George’s counterpart in Ohio and he, too, is seeing a problem with race and his members. Yet he also sees another dynamic going on — a respect among union members for McCain.

    “There is no question that John McCain historically has had a cultural connection with our members,” Rugola says, “but the reality is that his policies are not good for working families.”

    Frank Stricker, a history professor at California State University and a union expert, says race is a key to what alienates segments of the labor movement, especially in Ohio and west of Philadelphia in Pennsylvania.

    Although many (if not most) union workers are registered Democrats, their attitudes are not usually congruent with those of the left-leaning, liberal aristocracy of the party.

    I am not surprised to see a report like this; I think BHO will garner far less of the union vote than Clinton (Bill) did.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    In my experience working with union workers in the northeast, they are certainly more racist than anyone I’ve met in the south – not all of them, but enough to be significant. Segregated shops are SOP far more often than anyone is willing to admit.

    Dave

  • Zedd


    I get along pretty well with my neighbor, and on balance, I like him, but he is a racist. Often he laughingly threatens to sell his home to blacks, hoping to get a rise out of me. He has a brother who still lives in NY who won’t watch any sport that has black or hispanic players. He is a hockey fan. (Help me out here. I don’t follow hockey. Do any of the NHL teams have either Hispanic or black players on their rosters?) He hates Tiger Woods claiming that he must cheat somehow because no “darky” could honestly play golf that well.

    Funniest thing I have read in a long time. Boy talk about missing it. Why does he care? I’m guessing this guy doesn’t really like sports and is using the ethnic thing to preserve his masculine pride. I think super racists are funny. It’s so ridiculous that it’s funny. You sorta pity them because they are simple and dumb but you get a mischievous pleasure out of their stupidity. I like egging them on…. sicker.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    From today’s NYT’s Editorial Page: “Mr. Obama seems to understand that he is always an utterance away from a statement — or a phrase — that could transform him in a campaign ad from the affable, rational and racially ambiguous candidate into the archetypical angry black man who scares off the white vote. His caution is evident from the way he sifts and searches the language as he speaks, stepping around words that might push him into the danger zone.

    These maneuvers are often painful to watch. The troubling part is that they are necessary.”

    See full link at post “The Measure of a Man.”

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com david Black

    “the truth is that there is so much incredible garbage being spouted by right-wing idiots out there on radio and television that the American public is wallowing in ignorance right up to their pupiks (Yiddish for bellybutton).”

    I see, and there’s NO garbage falling out of the mouths of the left wing idiots out there on radio and TV, either, right, my dear?

    Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, etc, they are somehow different?

    How about your precious “HuffPo” and the dailykos?

    I’m not surprised you dated schwartzes (that’s Yiddish, too) in high school. No wonder you have a fixation on Martin Luther Kennedy.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    And you continue to wonder why people call you a racist, David? With remarks like that?

  • bliffle

    Fear not, Lisa. On another thread none other than cannonshop has exposed David Black as an Agent Provocateur sent by the libs to embarrass conservatives and bring contumely down on their heads.

    I kid you not: Cannonshop himself!

  • Cannonshop

    Hey, I only Speculated!!! I can’t prove anything one way or the other, but the guy is just too…(negative adjective) to be real, imho.

  • cuervodeluna

    The OP ducked my question about the Jewish issue subtext.

    Not that she is REQUIRED to answer other folks’ questions, of course….

  • Cindy D

    Woooo Hoooo!

    Cannon has unequivocally, and beyond the shadow of any doubt proven that David Black is merely a shill.

    Thanks! Cannon! Great job!

    (hee hee :-)

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “And you continue to wonder why people call you a racist, David? With remarks like that?”

    I don’t consider calling someone a schwartze any worse than calling someone a Neanderthal.

    How about you, Lisa, what do you think about that?

  • Cindy D

    1. schwartze

    A german word meaning “black”, but was incorporated into American Jewish slang to be a derogatory term towards black people.

    If you are black and someone uses the word “schwartze” in their conversation in your general direction, chances are he shooting racial slurs at you.

    Of course you don’t David Black. Liar.

  • George

    “but losses 3 out of the last 20 years? Delusional.

    Go check your facts. Big Airlines made profits between 1997 and 2000. Some may have made profit in 1995-1996. From 1989-1994 and 2000-2008 all disasters. At the same time Asian airlines have done well and Singapore Airlines made loss in 2003.

    “IATA records Africa as having the highest number of airplanes lost per million sectors flown, the rate being 4.09 in 2007. By way of contrast, the North American rate was 0.09, European rate 0.29, Asia & Pacific 2.76. Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States, surprisingly, had a zero rating, the best, meaning no loss of aircraft that year”

    Try comparing with someone of your own size..Singapore Airlines, Cathay and ANA.

    “Well then, they can do it on an invention by 3 guys named Jerry, James, and Jack, a developement team from Texas instruments. One of many innovations white Americans have pioneered, (along with airplanes, and successful airline business models, and prosperous free market capitalist systems) and generously shared with the rest of a sometimes ungrateful people in the rest of the world.”

    And those who can add will try to relocate jobs abroad, Texas Instruments, Intel, Dell, HP and a host of others. This financial crisis will see the biggest re-location of technical jobs abroad and I do not think raising H1-Bs to 200,000 is going to solve the problem…then again anti-immigrant groups are more concerned about Asians moving into their neighborhoods and having to smell curry, rather than concern over whether Americans are employed or not!

  • Cindy D

    “Jews in the United States used die schwartze to refer to and castigate African Americans.”

    Working Toward Whiteness By David R. Roediger (p 114)

  • cuervodeluna

    We are finally getting a LITTLE bit closer to what the OP is trying to hide.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Cuervo, not only am I not required to answer you, I will not engage with someone who is continually baiting me, who accuses me of having a subtext (after screaming that I called HER a liar on another post, ) and whose comments smell an awful lot like anti-Semitism to me; so keep being ugly. You will never get another response from me anywhere.

    David, the same goes for you. The word schvartze was only part of it; referring to my dating black boys as some sort of rationale for voting for Obama which was then seen as coming from a “fixation” on MLK was so over the top as to be ridiculous.

    It’s clear you’re nothing but a plant, something I (and anyone else who has bothered to try and wise you up) should have realized long ago. Just someone yanking our chains and sitting home laughing. Why else would you bother hanging out in the virtual world with people you would have nothing to do with in the real world?

    (Another reason I shall not engage with either of you: Cuervo or David-whoever-you-are)

  • George

    Everyone asks what is white privilege. White privilege is contradicting yourself depending on the situation and no one holds you accountable. ie., Crame of CNBC….

  • cuervodeluna

    Just to point out that I am not anti/semetic: I support Arabs 100%.