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If You Listen To Fools, The Mob Rules

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There is a price this country is paying, for the way discourse has changed today. From Rush Limbaugh, FoxNews pundits Hannity and Vetter, to the likes of Ann Coulter, WorldNetDaily, the Free Republic and on and on, there has been an outcry of faith, specifically the Christian faith, being under attack. From Godless liberals, European nations, gay people, secularists, the ACLU, the NPR, planned parenthood, school teachers and who can forget those dear sweet librarians with their demonic internet computers, it’s all always presented as an attack on faith, on Christianity. What used to be the trend of saying ‘Happy Holidays’, in order to be all-inclusive, is now turned around to be an attempt to be specifically exclusive against Christianity. After years of this paranoid rhetoric, is it any wonder the sheep want to chew their way out of the pen and seek blood?

Now we have fundamentalist Senator Frist and his new television show ‘Justice Sunday’ portraying faith as being under attack via filibusters. The whole purpose of the Democratic filibustering in the Senate is nothing more than an attack on Christian values by Frist’s reasoning. apparently, filibustering has nothing to do with politics, it’s all about gettin the faith. Bringin it down.

There is a consequence to us all, as long as moderate mainstream Christians allow this mentality and abuse of their principles to go unchecked, and it is compounded by allowing a President to so closely align his office with a particular religion. It is also compounded by politicians like Tom DeLay, and like Jeb Bush and the whole Florida Legislature who jump into the fray, attempting to impose their religiously based ideological principles upon a man and the wishes of his wife. It was the Terri Schiavo case, that should have been the watershed moment for many people. It was the Schiavo case where far right murderers and terrorists came out of the woodwork and were embraced by the mainstream conservative platform.

WorldNetDaily portrays Bo Gritz, of Ruby Ridge fame, as a hero. Hal Turner, the author of the book that inspired McVeigh to blow up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City, and his ideology of terror and murder, was the topic du jour on right wing forums for months. But it was Randall Terry that should have opened peoples eyes. On all the major news networks, it was Randall Terry who was the chief spokesman for the Schindler family. They actually tracked him down to be their spokesperson.

This Washington Post article from 1995, which showcases how Operation Rescue, (founded by Randall Terry, an anti-abortion organization involved in the deaths of two doctors, two clinic workers and one volunteer), was even back in 95, lamenting ‘It’s all about silence — silencing the Christian message.”

Randall Terry: “I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you… I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country.”

Randall Terry:
“When I, or people like me, are running the country, you’d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we’ll execute you. I mean every word of it. … I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed.

And as to how he rationalizes his intolerance:
“You say, ‘This is extreme!’ Yeah, you’re right. But imagine God Almighty sending people to hell just because they didn’t follow His son? That’s extreme. That’s intolerance. Imagine Jesus saying that all other religions are false. Christianity claims to be the only way.”

God is intolerant, therefore it is justifiable for Man to be. And this man was chosen to be one of the primary, legitimate spokesmen for the ideological Right in the Schiavo case. This empowers the ideologically fringe element that subscribes to Terry’s Dantean ways.

On Fox News, Pat Boone suggested that Schiavo’s vegetative state was possibly a homicide attempt by her own husband. Larry Klayman, former Chairman of Judicial Watch and 2004 U.S. Senate Candidate in Florida, and Alan Keyes, former Presidential Candidate, publicly imply that Terri Schiavo has received a death sentence from our judicial system. This political fiasco that the conservative Republican party aligned itself with, put the mainstream conservative element of America hand-in-hand with the most radical leaders, most of them Pro-Aryan, of the far Right extreme fringe. This new deadly tango of ideological lovers has emboldened the extremists to step up their terror.

As Nancy Goldstein put it:
You’d better get to know these folks, because Schiavo was a coming-out party for an emboldened radical right wing, not an isolated incident. The GOP gave theo-cons every indication that they would be allowed to set the agenda. The news media gave them carte blanche, never once explicitly connecting prime players like Randall Terry to their violent pasts. And the Democrats went limp. Now theo-cons are going to be taking their show on the road whenever and wherever they want: over the judiciary, gay marriage, and abortion — whatever God wills.

Death and Darkness
Close the city and tell the people that something’s coming to call
Death and darkness are rushing forward to take a bite from the wall, oh

One good example of what is happening, can be seen with the MinuteMan Project. We’ve seen countless pundits on the Right, as well as Republican Senators praise these individuals as good American activists. Sen. Wayne Allard, a Colorado Republican, wants to deputize these citizens. Neo-con Lou Dobbs of CNN recently interviewed Minuteman organizer Chris Simcox.

In the interview, Simcox says “We’ve been very careful, Lou, to screen the volunteers as thoroughly as we can. They go through phone interviews, personal interviews, background checks. We’ve made sure we have no one with a felony background.”

But what is left out of the interview, where Lou Dobbs praises Simcox for being a fine American, is the fact that Simcox promotes conspiracy theories such as this one linking Latino immigrants to the Chinese Army and has a history of militia organizing. He also has a conviction for carrying a loaded firearm in a National Park. So much for screening the supporters, even the organizer fails his own test. And KPHO recently did an undercover story on the Minutemen patrolling our border. Some choice comments from their investigation:

A lady on Hidden cam says, “We don’t want the press to find out where the information is being handed out because we’ll have CNN and FOX and yeah. They’re controlling what you hear, from why some of these volunteers “really” came to southern Arizona.”

John says, “If the border’s gone, they’re going to be pushing drugs on every one of our kids at school.”

The video link at the story has some scary footage and the anchor, Morgan Lowe, comments that the crew heard plenty of racial remarks out in the field, including one from a volunteer who told him he looked forward to “hunting a certain group of people.”

And there’s a poster on Free Republic who relates his tale from the ‘front lines’ of America’s borders:

“Nine days of blockade has begun to result in desperation. We believe 500-700 illegals and their coyotes are bottled up in the Huachuca Mountains at present. They are running out of food and water. We have also figured out the system used here for putting out food and water caches and have been routinely using them to add some variety to our dogs’ diets. Our canine companions are most appreciative.”

What he is telling us, is that people hide food and water in the desert in order to keep people crossing the border from starving and dying in the heat. The Minutemen are ENJOYING giving that food to their dogs. How many souls will wither and die in our deserts because of this? While it might be wrong to enter this country illegally, since when did it become the American way to deal with those seeking the promised land by giving them death?

Here’s an article from the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, interviewing Minuteman Joe McCutchen:

Armed with binoculars, a video camera and a.22-caliber pistol…
“Something is going to happen here,” said Joe McCutchen, 73, of Fort Smith, Ark. “We are hopeful.”

One People’s Project documents Joe McCutchen’s involvement with white-supremacist organizations like American Renaissance and the Council of Conservative Citizens.

President Bush calls it ‘vigilantism’, while the mainstream media portray them as American heroes.

Emboldened by the misrepresentation of the conservative mainstream media, supporters of the MinuteMen are working to step up the aggressive behavior, for no one is speaking out to stop this travesty.

This report confirms the word on the street of my town. People have been killed by these racist extremists who are hellbent on turning this into an Aryan Christian Nation. Note also, the report ends with “A Border Patrol says civilians running around in the desert at night is putting agents at risk.” I am all for immigration reform, but our vigilantism, which is now manifesting itself on our border, to the open embrace of ideological murderers as the legitimate spokesmen for the conservative movement should scare us all, but it doesn’t stop there.

At the conference “Confronting the Judicial War on Faith,” organized by a bunch of right wingers, including Phyllis Schlafly, author Edwin Vieira told the gathering that Supreme Court Justice Kennedy should be impeached because his philosophy, evidenced in his opinion striking down an anti-sodomy statute, “upholds Marxist, Leninist, satanic principles drawn from foreign law.”

People say they want a Federal Amendment to limit marriage to a man and a woman. This has the extremists frothing at the mouth, NOT because they hate gay people so much (although they certainly do hate us!), it’s because the extremists KNOW that an amendment will pass, and they get to tack on all sorts of goodies to it, that America will unwittingly vote into place just out of desperation of keeping two men from marrying. Attached to the Federal Amendment are the Religious Liberties Restoration Act and the Constitution Restoraction Act. The Religious Liberties Act would legalize public display of the Ten Commandments and the use of “one nation under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Constitution Restoration Act would ensure “the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element’s or officer’s acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government.” In other words, the law would forbid any court to review cases involving the invocation of God in the courtroom, or the placement therein of the Ten Commandments

There you have it. Christianity becomes ABOVE American law. Before you tell me that the Constitution Restoration Act has little chance of passing, I would tell you that in my lifetime, people coming to this country to find a better life would never be killed. I would tell you it is not possible for Americans to want to vote discrimination into our historical documents. But now, in the America I live in, apparently anything is possible. And when the theo-cons gain control of the Supreme Court, Roe v. Wade will be a speck on the bottom of their Christian boot, thanks to the Constitution Restoration Act. But as the Fort Worth Star-Telegram points out, the bill would also declare that federal judges interpreting the Constitution may not rely on anything besides “English constitutional and common law.”

Judges, even those on the Supreme Court, could not look to other court rulings, administrative rules, executive orders and no foreign law. Any judge who entertains a legal claim based on a public official’s “acknowledgement of God” would be committing an impeachable offense.

You will give all this up, just so my household won’t be called a family? According to the Conservative Right, if I declare love for my partner and want to commit to him proudly, it will be the downfall of civilization. But if I was a male whore who put pictures of myself online buck-ass naked posing like a husky ballerina trying out for the Nu

tcracker, then I’d probably get paid and even get to go into the White House Press Room, with their complete support for my personal choices.

This assault on judges, or as the Right likes to refer to it “A stealth stake through the left’s heart”, is probably the most damaging aspect to American Democracy that this rise of religiously based and racist vigilantism is doing.

Judge Richard Kramer, a married heterosexual Roman Catholic who was appointed by a Republican Governor, is the jurist who recently ruled against California’s state ban on same gender marriage. Today Judge Kramer is being followed 24/7 by bodyguards to protect him after receiving death threats and hate mail. The same for Judge Greer in the Schiavo case. His whole family still needs 24/7 protection for upholding American law. Don’t like a judge’s ruling? The vigilante mentality is now to try to impeach or even kill.

Hardline Christian intolerance against Democracy and the principles of America also takes place subtly with the passing of legislation that allows medical treatment to be contingent on the religious belief of the health care professional. The same with dispensing EMERGENCY contraception. It is no coincidence that the passing of pro-discrimination policies, ironically done under the pretense of religion being attacked, coincides with the rise in vigilantism. Whether it is via legislation or via physical harm in the California desert, oppression and violence in the name of faith is alive and well in America. Living under a theocracy isn’t a possibility for many of us, as much as it is already a reality.

Vigilantism. The President called the MinuteMen that. People are dying. Our Border Patrol agents are less safe than before. We’re dangerously tampering with every American’s ability to receive quality health care, contraception and we are on the precipe of writing discrimination into our historical documents, for the first time ever. Meanwhile, the constant perception of Christianity being under attack continues unabated, now complete with Senators and their own television shows promoting the concept.

Note here, that John Eldredge, one of the most influential gurus of the Christian men’s movement, has this to say about his faith: “A boy wants to attack something,” he writes with approval, “and so does a man.” Such hostility is not a sin to overcome, but the heart of headship, “a man’s heart, his passions, his true nature, which he has been given by God.”

The Gospel according to John Eldredge: “Contrary to what you may have been led to believe,” he tells his male audiences, “the Incarnation of grace, meekness, and love is not Mister Rogers with a beard! He is more like Maximus in the movie Gladiator or William Wallace in Braveheart.”

Playing With Fire
Kill the spirit and you’ll be blinded, the end is always the same
Play with fire, you burn your fingers and lose your hold of the flame, oh
It’s over, it’s done
The end is begun
If you listen to fools…

People say that there is no problem with a President who professes his faith and who relies upon it to set policy. When it becomes heavily promoted and constantly linked to the White House, then it becomes impossible to reject the policy without rejecting the faith. Compound that with the fact that YOU KNOW that the conservative mainstream media will certainly go on about how the Left is attacking the faith. And if a President promotes that he sets a policy contingent upon his faith, then how can he compromise with the opposing side, without looking like he’s compromising his faith? Politics and religion cannot mix, there is no feasible way for them to mix in a true democratic society. I’m sorry, but it just isn’t possible.

The America that I was raised to believe in, the America we all strive for, is crumbling into a theocratic nightmare for some of us, and extremist groups are running full steam ahead with their ideological terror, with the apparent complete blessing of the mainstream media. The Right Wing Conservative Propaganda Machine is still churning out thousands of emails to subscribers, still ranting and raving on cable news about the evils of Godlessness, still misleading Christians into thinking THEY are the ones under attack. The counter cable news network from the Left is years away. The counter propaganda machine from the Left would take years to construct.

And the Christian Right continues on with their promises of violence, aggression, and unwillingness to stop at anything less than turning this country into a nightmare for those of us who do not fit their perception of an ideal human. Whenever someone talks about theophobia or how I am paranoid about this country going back to it’s puritan roots, I just tell myself that they aren’t knocking on YOUR door, they haven’t come for YOU….yet. For some of us, they are already here. And they want us to know they are here on behalf of YOUR God, and that they have YOUR support.

Stop the Movement
Break the circle and stop the movement, the wheel is thrown to the ground
Just remember it might start rolling and take you right back around
You’re all fools!
The Mob Rules!

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About Steve S

  • http://www.iamcorrect.com Lono

    I believe the Christian right is the biggest danger America is facing today. I do not fear the Taliban, for they are not in my backyard and making decisions for me.

  • Lou

    Neo-con Lou Dobbs? He’s clearly a paleo-con.

  • http://www.artgally.com Sandy

    I believe anyone against the minute men should leave our country and go to Mexico to live. It seems that those of you who disapprove of the Minute Men would like the US to become Mexico. We fought that war once. As far as the Schiavo Case I think it was a run away judicial system. I love Sean Hannity and believe he is trying to get to the truth.
    We have too many illegals here and need to put a stop to it. They are being kept with my tax money also. I have a friend who lives in the carolinas and says they can get drivers licence there and don’t need insurance. This means if they have an accident and no insurance the government pays and that means I pay. This is crap. I am tired of paying for the illegals. This is the US and we should be promoting us and not illegals.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Sandy, I do not support illegals coming into this country and us doing nothing about it. The answer that you and the MinuteMen prefer, cold-blooded murder, I cannot support either.

  • SFC SKI

    Where have the Minutemen advance murder as part of their agenda?

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    SFC SKI, the Minutemen do not publicly endorse murder, of course.

    I know that the post is long, but I have provided ample evidence, and if you care to look, there is plenty more evidence out there, that the agenda that the MinuteMen promote on the airwaves is not the same as what the MinuteMen are doing on the border.

    It’s in the post, SFC SKI.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Interesting article, and only a few problems that I have to bring attention to.

    First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well. This is by no means accurate. If you look at the judicial appointees whose filibustering you’re so proud of, many of them are surprisingly moderate and only a couple seem to be religiously extreme by any definition. Bush’s actions in other areas also argue very strongly that he is not a social conservative. He placates them well, but when it comes to delivering on their issues he does zip for them.

    Yes, there are religious extremists and some hold public office, but they have by no means come to dominate the Republican party even if they are very outspoken. In fact, their current rather loud tactics suggest that they are trying to push an advantage that they think might be fading away as traditional Republican values reassert themselves. They need to score their points while they can before the inevitable backlash.

    You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party. They are as crazed, as dangerous and as troubling as anything on the right. One of the reason why the right wing extremists have become so successful is that the extremism of the left has driven moderates – who are the majority of the population – to choose, and many of them have reluctantly been willing to accept the excesses of the right when faced with the alternative excesses of the left.

    Personally I’d prefer to see someone articulate a comprehensible moderate political philosophy, build a party around it and send the extremists to the fringes where they belong.

    BTW, Lou Dobbs is a protectionist quasi-socialist, not a conservative.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    First, you assume that President Bush is party to the religious lunacy you document so well.

    Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn’t support what they and people like Sandy do.

    You also completely overlook the equally extreme elements in the Democratic party.

    Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.

    If a bank robber is going to point a gun at you, do you also reflect on the badness of the pimp?

  • George

    Dear Steve S.(whoever you are)

    There you go again. Accusing the Right of being civic terrotrists when in fact the is what you are. You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant. If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can’t Christians have their agenda? Besides some of these people you describe are not real Christians any more than Hitler was a Christian. Real Christians don’t preach hate or insurrection. Those people who do are Libertarians or Bolsheviks not Christian conservatives. You really should try and find a school or college that teaches the different spectrums of America’s political life and comparative religion so you could know what you are talking about.

    You are as radical as those you accuse only you are so smart that you think you know everything. That makes you one of the most dangerous people in the country, because you don’t know what you don’t know. You are the other half of OXY-…., and I pity you. You just don’t get it. You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns (in your case, the biggest maouth with the smallest mind) were the boss.

    What am I missing here? Who the heck is Steve S.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    You say the Christians are intollerant when it is you who are intollerant

    In addition to your lack of spelling ability, you apparently cannot read either.

    I provided quotes FROM the Christian extremists who say they are intolerant. I don’t say it, they do themselves.

    If you are allowed to have your agenda, then why can’t Christians have their agenda?

    This post is about extremism. This post is not about mom and pop Christian, beyond the fact that they are sitting on their ass, letting terrorism occur under the banner of their religion.

    You want to return to the wild west where the biggest and fastest guns

    Clearly you did not read the post. Apparently nobody commenting really has. I am not a MinuteMan, I do not support using guns in this case. Detaining illegals is one thing, but as I have pointed out, that is not all that is happening.

    Who the heck is Steve S.

    A law abiding voter exercising my freedom of speech, got a problem with that?

  • http://jonsobel.com Jon Sobel

    Wow. I mean, WOW. I thought Dave Nalle was sort of a lone anachronism, howling in the wilderness against those durn Commie Pinko Socialists. Now I see others on the Right see things the same way – the only difference is that Dave can spell.

    Where are all these alleged “socialists”? Because of where I live and what I do for a living, probably at least 90% my friends and co-workers are liberals, and I don’t think I know a single socialist. Oh, wait – they must be hiding their secret identities, waiting to come out on a signal from their alien overlords. Could it be… the guy working in the next office? Omigosh. I’m terrified.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    What should be more telling to us all, Jon, is how many people from the Right, you will see on threads, who when confronted with evidence of their lawlessness and vigilantism, will attack YOU for providing the evidence.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    George, there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support, but the one thing on which he’s dead right is that radical Christians are intolerant. God told them they’re right, therefore anyone who disagrees with them is not just wrong, but outright evil.

    >>Where do I do that, Dave? I pointed out that Bush called the MinuteMen vigilantes. Even he doesn’t support what they and people like Sandy do.< <

    I came to this conclusion not because of the minutemen issue, but because of the filibustering issue. You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office - which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature. But the fact is that Bush's judicial nominees are mostly pretty moderate - several of those being blocked are even former Clinton appointees.

    >>Dave, when I talk about one party running amok, I cannot cover every party under the sun. There are extreme elements in the Democratic party, they have nothing to do with the religious terrorism that some of us are going through.<<

    Actually, I think the two have to be looked at together, though I understand why you didn’t do it in this piece. As I see it they’re two sides of the same coin. For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported as the Christian issues of the exttreme right. The issues are different, but the evangelic personality type is the same.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support

    such as? I documented everything.

    You seem to think that the filibustering is going on to stop religiously extreme judges from getting into office – which suggests that Bush made appointments of that nature.

    Dave, I don’t understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said ‘by Frists’s reasoning’. I am not Frist.

    Does nobody read anymore? Is it because it’s not a 30 second MTV clip?

    For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported

    Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S
  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>there are a lot of things in this article which really reach beyond what fact can support

    such as? I documented everything.< <

    Sure, you documented one white supremacist of 500 people on the border, so they're all white supremacists. You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else. Taking a few extreme examples and making them the poster children for the entire right wing is what I call reaching.

    >>Dave, I don’t understand what is going on here. Has everybody lost the ability to reason? Nobody seems to comprehend what I am saying. There is no way to say it clearer. In the filibuster paragraph, I said ‘by Frists’s reasoning’. I am not Frist.< <

    No, but you're the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You're not quoting Frist, you're interpreting him.

    >>Dave, you always want to water criticism of the Right with criticism of the Left. I understand fair and balanced and all that, but we are talking about vigilantism, and extremism. I am talking here and now on the border. There are no leftists down there burning down SUV dealerships at the moment. There are lives being lost in the desert though. I prefer to focus on the crisis at hand.<<

    If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I’m not convinced that it’s happening though. The article you cite has an off-hand reference to a ‘standoff’ where people were killed. But as far as I can tell from various media sources no one has been reported dead and no one has been arrested. Your whole take on the minuteman thing is extreme. While there are some obvious blemishes, what they are doing has a valid point and seems to be achieving something. Some of those involved may be nuts and some may be idiots, but the overall results so far have not been negative. It’s just like the WMD thing. Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits. Because the minutemen aren’t perfect paragons of virtue you write off the whole project. This fits right in with my comment recently on another thread about the relentless negativism of the left.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    You bring up crazy statements and activities by a couple of nuts like Pat Boone and Bo Gritz (ferchrissakes) and they become representative of everyone else.

    Dave, the whole premise of the Schiavo section was to illustrate that it is not ME who is making the ideological fringe be representative of the Christian religion, it is evidenced in the links I provided that the mainstream media is treating these people as the spokesmen of the conservative Right. I have provided evidence of that. You are laying the blame on the messenger.

    No, but you’re the one who ascribes that reasoning to Frist and the one who concludes that his reasoning is incorrect. You’re not quoting Frist, you’re interpreting him.

    I ascribe that Frist is portraying the filibusters as an attack on Christianity? YES, I certainly do! Finally something gotten right. I got my evidence for that from the subtitle of the show: Stop the Filibuster of People of Faith.

    By my logic, that is portraying the filibustering as being an attack on Christianity, which I point out. I guess by your logic, you come to a different conclusion.

    If lives are being lost we should certainly be concerned. I’m not convinced that it’s happening though.

    I posted evidence from a freeper on a right wing site where he brags about destroying the hidden caches of food in the desert. And I posted an article that pointed out that the Border Patrol thinks that the Minutemen are putting the Border Patrol at risk. Just dismiss the whole thing though because it doesn’t fit in with your ideology. As for evidence of an undocumented alien with no record in an American database being reported as killed, you really are naive. Come out here to California and see how things really work. Do you know how many miles of border, how many miles of desert there are?

    Just because there were no WMDs you write off the whole war in Iraq and ignore all the other benefits.

    You have me confused with someone else.

  • SFC SKI

    I went back and reread the pertinent points, I don’t see how I missed it in the first place. The possible ties to supremaacists and the Minutemen is a good thing to be aware of, as of yet however, I haven’t heard of Minutmen being involved in murders of illegal immigrants. Still, it is a good point.
    I would like to see the extreme religionists have less infuluence in lawmaking. It seems to me that today only the extremist of any side are succesfully dominating either party.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Here is a story from the Arizona Central, about a man who is charged with 7 counts of assault with a deadly weapon.

    Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen

    see reference in earlier post about MinuteMen getting ready to step up aggressive behavior too.

    Since the AP can’t find a body, Dave, beyond those which people come across in the desert all the time, we can conclude that things are just fine out here.

    I’m not trying to set immigration policy here, this is about an undercurrent in this country, of a perception of Christians being attacked from all sides, perpetuated by the media and things have long past simmering and are reaching a boiling point. This isn’t about furthering my agenda, this is about saving lives in the culture war. I haven’t promoted any pro- or anti-immigration policy here.

    And it’s not so much about immigration as it is about the perception of Christians that the world is out to get them. We’re now paying the price for that falsehood in many ways.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Here is a story in the Tucson Weekly about how the MinuteMen manipulate the media. So when you dismiss the fact that nothing is happening because the media isn’t reporting it, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

    From the Tucson Citizen:

    The Border Patrol has tried to reduce deaths by clamping down on the area with its Arizona Border Control Initiative, which was recently renewed for a second year. The aim is to channel immigrants into less deadly terrain. At the same time, the volunteer Minuteman Project, which had been patrolling eastern Arizona’s border in Cochise County, seems to be directing more immigrants back into the western desert.

    You won’t hear about them dying, because they won’t end up in the morgue, Dave. Local news is always a better source of info than cable news, unless you want to hear about Michael Jackson.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Again, from the Tucson Citizen, a report on how Mexican tourists spend 1 billion a year in Arizona, but how the shops there are suffering because people are now afraid to visit our country legally.

    I am for immigration reform and a decrease in illegal immigrants, but not through vigilantism. There is never anything good to come from that. I am suprised that you guys are not against this sort of behavior, and I’m surprised that you all do not see negative consequences from the years of mainstream Christians being told over an d over again that everything on the planet is an assault on their faith.

  • http://eeng.net/eeng/ribbon/index.html. Juan Schoch

    Huh? Mob rules? How about ignorant mob of uninformed, biased, ignoroids who have been heavily influenced by the mainstream propaganda press that doesn’t even bother to do responsible investigative journalism anymore. Yeah the mob does rule and you are part of the mob apparently.

    http://tekgnosis.typepad.com

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Well, Juan, you are accusing me of being heavily influenced by mainstream propaganda press, but if you read the post, you would see that I am critical of the mainstream media and how it has turned from true journalism to mislead instead. I am not influenced by them, but if you read that, you would know that.

    So perhaps they have all given up on investigative journalism because apparently all the readers have given up on reading.

  • SFC SKI

    Well said Steve, I hardly read mainstream news anymore; outsideo f the headlines it rarely informs, and is seldom objective.

  • marc

    Steve it does nothing for your credability when you post a link that’s two weeks old (man who is charged with 7 counts of assault) and the man has since been cleared of all charges.

    In addition your link (Mexican gangs declare war on Minutemen) leads to an entirely different story, here is the first para:

    SAN BERNARDINO—Gangs have declared war on San Bernardino and Colton police officers and put them on hit lists in retaliation for the recent shooting deaths of two men by officers, police said.

    and it’s 7 months old.

    Lets assume the gangs have declared war on the minutemen. Why would that be? Maybe because they fear a few of their breatheren would be stopped or delayed coming across the border?

    Or given their “stock in trade” the gangs are probably pissed because vulnerable targets for their thieving ways are being stopped or re-directed to other areas.

    So what’s your point?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I posted evidence from a freeper on a right wing site where he brags about destroying the hidden caches of food in the desert. < <

    Last I checked that food was on private property and if the minutemen have permission from the owners to be on that land and destroy that food, then they are doing no wrong. If the food is there for illegals crossing the border it is part of a criminal activity and destroying it is merely detering crime.

    >>And I posted an article that pointed out that the Border Patrol thinks that the Minutemen are putting the Border Patrol at risk. < <

    Strange how all the comments from the border patrol we see in the news are supportive of the minutemen. And isn't it their job to take the risks necessary to apprehend illegals?

    >>Just dismiss the whole thing though because it doesn’t fit in with your ideology.< <

    Not sure this topic even relates to my ideology in any meaningful way. I'm for relatively open borders and a guest worker program.

    >> As for evidence of an undocumented alien with no record in an American database being reported as killed, you really are naive. Come out here to California and see how things really work. Do you know how many miles of border, how many miles of desert there are?<<

    No naivete on that issue here. For the last 50 years the landowners on the border have just been shooting illegals and dumping their bodies in unmarked graves – or at least this has been known to happen – so I’m not surprised if it happens again.

    What you’re missing in all this is that the minutemen are trying to prevent an acknowledged crime and doing so in a generally non-violent manner.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    So, mexicans illegally cross our borders into our country and that’s ok.

    Some americans illegally aid and abet those same illegal aliens that are crossing into our borders by placing food and water in strategic locations and that’s ok too.

    But stopping two very illegal activities by assisting an understaffed border patrol isn’t?

    Just trying to get the facts straight here…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    and why shouldn’t the presidents nominees for any position at least get a vote? This fillibustering thing is so much bull shit! A senator gets to stand up on the floor of congress and read the Washington, D.C. phone book into the record just to avoid a vote? If these nominees are so bad then there shouldn’t be a problem getting the nay votes needed to make sure they don’t get the position they were nominated for in the first place!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    From what I’ve read on the nominees a couple of them are pretty bad and would probably get voted down. I don’t understand why those ones are being filibustered. Of the others there are a couple who will probably get votes from Democrats – they were Clinton appointees to their current positions and aren’t religiously extreme. This is what makes the whole filibustering business seem so capricious. They seem to have just chosen their targets at random which suggests tha the filibustering is happening not so much to block these specific appointees, but merely as an exercise of power to essentially stick it to an administration they don’t like. That kind of behavior -when it’s this transparent – really makes the Democrats look bad.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Steve it does nothing for your credability when you post a link that’s two weeks old (man who is charged with 7 counts of assault) and the man has since been cleared of all charges.

    I’m glad he’s cleared of charges. Why is it uncredible that it happened 14 days ago and not last night?

    Lets assume the gangs have declared war on the minutemen. Why would that be? Maybe because they fear a few of their breatheren would be stopped or delayed coming across the border?

    Yes, most likely. And because if you are here on the border, you would have seen skinheads with shotguns running all over the hills, it’s not a good situation.

    So what’s your point?

    The whole point of the post is a rise in vigilantism.

    Last I checked that food was on private property and if the minutemen have permission from the owners to be on that land and destroy that food, then they are doing no wrong. If the food is there for illegals crossing the border it is part of a criminal activity and destroying it is merely detering crime.

    I’m absolutely shocked Dave. I said I am for immigration reform and for detering illegals, but you know that such activity puts men, women AND children at risk. I am completely amazed that you condone such activity and look at you differently now.

    Strange how all the comments from the border patrol we see in the news are supportive of the minutemen

    Strange how I have posted two news sources (local) that are entirely about how the MinuteMen manipulate the media, and strange how the Right selectively dismisses that info.

    So, mexicans illegally cross our borders into our country and that’s ok.

    No, Andy, I have said at least 5 times on this thread that I am for immigration reform and against illegals coming into this country. More selective reading from the Right.

    I am now utterly convinced that the animosity and paranoia from the Christian Right, which, as I have amply evidenced is resulting in dangerous situations on our borders, to the causing of the evacuation of minorities from colleges for their safety, all caused by elements of Christian extremism, AND the safety and integrity of our judges being under attack and requiring protection 24/7, is all okay with the moderate Right. For you all have clearly indicated so to me.

    It is clear the moderate Right supports the activity of extremists. One only has to read this thread to see so.

  • anon

    Steve,

    you mentioned ‘nobody read the entire post’. Dude, it was insanely long. Take a look around at the posts, we work in quick jutted thoughts.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Steve – those people you talk about being at risk are at risk BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!! If they LEGALLY immigrated into this country they wouldn’t need those supplies out in the middle of the desert!

    This is like the store owner who got charged because he electrified a vent opening in his store and a thief was shocked to death while attempting to break into his store! I guess if I shoot someone that enters my house illegally I’m at fault? Or if I detain them until the authorities arrive I’m extreme? It’s the same fucking thing!

    Why is it that you call the minute men extreme, but not the people crossing miles of uninhabited desolate land to illegally enter a country with relatively open borders extreme? I’d say that’s pretty extreme!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I understand, anon. The premise of the post is about how the propaganda machine of the Right puts out the concept that Christianity is under attack 24/7. The end consequence of this, is that it emboldens extremists into action.

    Whether it is activists who are stalking our judges or activists who want to kill dark skinned folks on the border, or activists who want to target minorites on campus, etc. There is a rise in extremist activity, which is fueled by the conservative propaganda machine and is also fueled by the Republicans presenting their agenda under the guise of Christianity being attacked, there’s no way to present all that evidence in a sentence.

    What does it matter at this point? The mainstream conservative movement clearly supports extremists acting under their banner.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Andy, yes, I agree that illegals risking their lives to cross the border for a chance at opportunity is extreme. I do not think vigilantism is the answer.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    It’s only extreme if Steve doesn’t agree wit hit!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    No, Andy, it’s extreme when people’s lives are at risk.

    Hate crimes against gay people on the rise

    Note that link is not for you, Andy or Dave. It’s for people who are concerned about human life.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    So, because I disagree wit hyou means I have no concern for human life? Go fuck yourself you self serving condescending asshole!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    No, andy, it’s not because you disagree with me, it is because you are okay with the endangerment of illegals crossing this border.

    I am AGAINST illegals coming into this country. I do not support behavior that puts human life at risk. Your comments indicate you do. That is how I arrive at my conclusion, it’s not because you disagree with me.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Steve says – I do not support behavior that puts human life at risk.

    Well, illegally crossing the border over the desert puts lives at risk! Doesn’t it? Just because someone puts out water, doesn’t make it any easier, they still have to find it! Ever been in Phoenix in August? Ever been in Yuma in August? Ever been in Tuscon in August? And those are the towns! Try Imperial Sand Dunes in August!

    You go out in the desert in the middle of the summer you better be carrying your body weight in water and these people carry nothing, they put themselves at risk!

    Ever driven I-8 and seen the illegals coming running out on the highway? Ever been to the Tijuana border crossing and seen the waves of illegals charging the crossing? Ever seen a truck pulled over at the crossing 30 miles north of SD and seen loads of illegals being led out of the back of an 18 wheeler? This all puts lives at risk. If those illegals that were bottled up in the mountains turned around and went home then there’d be no issue, but because they’re dumb enough to try to wait out the folks with all the supplies, that makes the people that are prepared and watching for the CRIMINALS on the borders the bad guys?

    You say you’re against it, but you don’t want to do anything about it!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    regarding comment 29, from Dave:

    which suggests tha the filibustering is happening not so much to block these specific appointees, but merely as an exercise of power to essentially stick it to an administration they don’t like. That kind of behavior -when it’s this transparent – really makes the Democrats look bad.

    The Democrats are doing exactly what Republicans have done in the past. The only difference is that Republicans don’t like the tables turned on them.

    (for those who don’t like to read more than two sentences – Cliff notes version – republicans are criticizing democrats for using republican strategies).

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    But mommy, he did it to me first!!!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Well, illegally crossing the border over the desert puts lives at risk! Doesn’t it?

    Yes, andy, people crossing the border is wrong. I do not condone it. Removing their food and water is not a good answer.

    You say you’re against it, but you don’t want to do anything about it!

    No andy, I have said I am for immigration reform and that I don’t want illegals crossing the border. I have now had to say that no less than 6 or 7 times. That would indicate that I do not support doing nothing.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    an eye for an eye.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Even President Bush is on my side on this one. He calls the Minutemen vigilantes and does not support civilian activity in this manner.

    It’s clear the conservative AND conservative extremists are now at the point where getting their ideology in place is so important that they do not care if people die as a consequence. If this is not advancing to the next stage in a culture war, I don’t know what is.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    yet another example of the conservative Republican movement aligning itself with members of the Aryan Nation, openly and with complete endorsement of the republican conservative movement.

    Note also, that not only is Frist involved, but you have Dobson, considered a legitimate speaker of the Right, comparing the Supreme Court to the Klu Klux Klan.

    (ironic that the Republican party, as has been amply documented on this blog, is walking arm in arm with KKK members).

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I understand, anon. The premise of the post is about how the propaganda machine of the Right puts out the concept that Christianity is under attack 24/7.< <

    BTW, Steve. Christianity IS under attack 24/7. Not that I care. I think it should be and I do my fair share of attacking.

    >>yet another example of the conservative Republican movement aligning itself with members of the Aryan Nation, openly and with complete endorsement of the republican conservative movement.<<

    Yet it is these same Aryans who are even more rabidly anti-Bush than you are, Steve. Check out infowars.com sometime. The fact is that the Aryans hold every kind of extreme views, and you can find something on which they agree with almost any special interest group. Hell, they agree with Jesse Jackson and many other black Democrats on the idea that jews were secretly behind the events of 9/11. Does that make them allies of the Democrats?

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    even more rabidly anti-Bush than you are, Steve

    again, Dave, you have me confused with someone else.

    Hell, they agree with Jesse Jackson and many other black Democrats on the idea that jews were secretly behind the events of 9/11. Does that make them allies of the Democrats?

    If they stood side by side with Jesse, and if Jesse accepted them as a spokesperson, and if their ideological alliance was made public and openly and if they worked together, then I would say yes, they would be allies.

    But Jesse and the Democrats aren’t doing that.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Like the mythical phoenix mac diva rises from the ashes!!! I was wondering when you’d get around to calling everyone that disagrees with you a racist!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    All of a sudden Steve isn’t anti-Bush??? When did this epiphany happen???

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    your link in comment 45 doesn’t work.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Steve – I didn’t say that illegally crossing the border was wrong, although it is, I said it puts lives at risk. You said you don’t support actions that put lives at risk, well, neither do the minutemen!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I was wondering when you’d get around to calling everyone that disagrees with you a racist!

    please point out where I called anyone, let alone anyone who disagrees with me, a racist.

    It is apparent, that the Right has lost the ability to comprehend and read.

    As for the link:
    http://blogcritics.org/mt/mt-comments.php?mode=red&u=http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml
    %3Fi=20050509&s=blumenthal

    The link in comment 15 doesn’t work either. This is why I print out the urls (comment 15 url was deleted). It happens whenever there is a question mark in the URl. Unfortunately, they get changed back into links but still don’t work.

    I am against many Bush policies. The majority of my beef has always been the conservative right’s unholy alliance with religion. Anybody who has read me on this site for over a year now, knows that my beef is separation of church and state.

    At no time in this thread, have I even attacked Bush. I am on the same side as Bush here.

    Yes, andy, I don’t support putting lives at risk. I do want to find a way to stop illegal immigration. I have provided documented evidence, in the original blog, which I am sure you did not click on, that links to comments MADE BY MINUTEMEN, who reveal how they are jeopardizing lives on the border.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    please point out where I called anyone, let alone anyone who disagrees with me, a racist.

    I mean anyone here, andy. Yes, I’m calling the members of the Aryan nation racist, and I’m pointing out your sides unholy alliance, now conducted openly and without secrecy with them. That is not calling you a racist.

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    Steve..I enjoyed your article very much and I hope you will continue to write and expose the danger to this country that the right wing religious fanatics are…I too am a strong advocate for separation of church and state especially in these dangerous times when these demented fools think they know what God wants for this country..
    Dave…Could you elaborate on this statement …..>>>>>As I see it they’re two sides of the same coin. For the extremists on the left their package of secularist-progressive issues is as much a religion and just as irrationally and fanatically supported as the Christian issues of the extreme right. The issues are different, but the evangelic personality type is the same.
    I am not looking for a fight here Dave I am just interested to know how we Liberals can be compared to the right wing fanatics…I also would like you to articulate some day what a Moderate should be..Thank you…

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Georgio: “I am not looking for a fight here Dave I am just interested to know how we Liberals can be compared to the right wing fanatics…I also would like you to articulate some day what a Moderate should be”

    The way I see it irrational fanatics are irrational fanatics, whether their guiding principle is christianity, socialism, racism, homosexuality or whatever. They are characterized by hatred of a perceived enemy, be it george w. bush, bill clinton, christians or people with alternative lifestyles. They hold an absolute belief that they are right and that no other belief system can possibly be right, and they are unwilling to compromise in any way on any of their core issues.

    Moderates would pretty much be the opposite. Moderation is based on reason, pragmatism and compromise. Moderates don’t see the world in black and white and while they believe that some policies and choices are better than others, they are willing to make reasonable compromises in order to achieve some progress towards desirable goals. They don’t expect instant change or any kind of absolutist ideological solution. If something works they embrace it, whether it comes from the right or the left. This, of course, puts them in the position of often being torn between the two extremes, or having to pick one to ally with despite being uncomfortable with the fanatics they end up siding with.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    so, saying someone is walking arm in arm with the aryan nation isn’t suggesting that they’re racist? It’s just convenient for you to lump them together?

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    …. and they are unwilling to compromise in any way on any of their core issues

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    Thanks Dave..I am going to think about your comment and thanks for your reply..

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    so, saying someone is walking arm in arm with the aryan nation isn’t suggesting that they’re racist? It’s just convenient for you to lump them together?

    Andy, I will give this one last shot, just for you, then I am done explaining what is already before you. I hate to sound so condescending, but this entry has been also posted in two other places, with no comprehension problems. You all get it, but you want the message to not get out there.

    There is a rise in violence and vigilantism done IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY in this country. That does NOT mean that the Christian Church endorses it. That does NOT mean that Melba and Wilbur sitting in the pew endorse it. Okay, folks?

    Not only does this constant portray of Christianity being attacked have an effect on the moderate Christian, it MOTIVATES the extremist.

    Numerous examples of your ideological ‘leaders’ of the Republican platform and the mainstream conservative movement, walking ideologically AND PUBLICLY arm-in-arm with ideological MURDERERS, FURTHER EMBOLDEN THE EXTREMISTS.

    The end result of the unholy and public coupling of your conservative Republican movement and those who publicly endorse killing, has resulted in vigilantism and an increase in violence towards minorities, which I have amply documented.

    Period. End of premise. End of post. Ample evidence from reliable sources provided throughout the whole page.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    How many murders have the minutemen committed now? I missed that part in your post. I believe those 19 assholes on 4 airplanes are the ones that emboldened people to watch our borders. I’m sorry that ILLEGAL ALIENS are being caught trying to cross our borders across hostile terrain, doing something that is extremely dangerous and extremely stupid.

    You call it vigilantism, I call it a not so regulated militia. I don’t live near that border anymore, but when I did I would have appreciated knowing that someone was keeping criminals out of my backyard.

    And lastly..you said that you agreed with Bush on this ONE issue…I bet it’s FUCKING KILLING YOU to have to agree with him about anything!!! You can pretend to be something you’re not, but like you said, everybody that reads on here knows what you are and who you support and who you don’t. If you hate to sound condescending, then why do you do it all the time???

    Now I’m done.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    How many murders have the minutemen committed now? I missed that part in your post.

    You missed the whole premise. We also disagree with what constitutes murder apparently. Taking food and water from someone so they starve to death is murder in my eyes.

    I’m sorry that ILLEGAL ALIENS are being caught

    Why? I’m not sorry they are being caught. I am sorry that in our attempt to better the situation, we are making things more dangerous.

    You call it vigilantism, I call it a not so regulated militia.

    laughable as to the difference.

    you said that you agreed with Bush on this ONE issue…I bet it’s FUCKING KILLING YOU to have to agree with him about anything!

    it’s clear you all don’t know how to read. I do disagree with Bush on about 80%+ of his philosophy, but I agree with a proactive stance on terror (just not his way), I agree that the MinuteMen are wrong, and I agree with him that the internets are more few, for starters.

    If you hate to sound condescending, then why do you do it all the time?

    having to explain something to you over and over, that everyone else gets, is tiring.

    everybody that reads on here knows what you are and who you support and who you don’t.

    but you always get that wrong too. You and others here have always accused me of being a Kerry man. I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    damn. end italic.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>but you always get that wrong too. You and others here have always accused me of being a Kerry man. I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list.<<

    Come on man, if you’re going to drink the damned kool-aid then DRINK it, don’t sip it like a little girl!

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I have no idea what that means Dave.

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    Steve S. “I’m glad he’s cleared of charges. Why is it uncredible that it happened 14 days ago and not last night?

    Because of the age and you made no effort to verify what the latest on the story was. You posted that glaring headline for two possible reasons. One you were too damm lazy to check. Or two, in hopes of making a point about vigilantism on the border.

    If you claim it was for another reason your just a flat out liar.

    Steve S “Taking food and water from someone so they starve to death is murder in my eyes.”

    Source please. Where is it reported the Minutemen removed water or food?

    Steve S. “I was always a Dean man first, a Clark man second, Kerry was down on the list.”

    Why am I not surprised? Then you support Dean using terminology such as “evil,” or “We have got to start laying the groundwork for a national party, for a national message. … [Republicans] are mean. They are not nice people.”

    Wouldn’t that embolden some on the extremist left? Sure it would, but you may never admit it.

    And I suppose by showing some support for Clark (who got fired BTW for not following direct presidential orders as detailed in his own book) you see nothing wrong in Clark not condemning Moore’s calling a president a deserter?
    Then eight days later when given a chance to comment on the matter he sputtered:“Well, I’ve never looked into those … those allegations.”

    Or Moore, for that matter, given such a visable place at the Democratic Convention.

    Let me guess you don’t believe these idiots don’t cause the likes of International answer, Code Pink or the recent pie throwing assasins that have stalked a few conservatives to act in extreme ways.

    Not to mention that nutjog Al Gore who gave another example just how extreme he can be today in front of a Moveon crowd of moonbats.

    Pot, Kettle, BLACK

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    removing food and water from the desert is murder, but from a hospice house in FL, it’s just a nice thing to do? What a fucking hypocrite!!!

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    BTW, I almost forgot.

    Steve explain to me how Air America can broadcast a “comedy” piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing.

    Or is that somehow different?

    Ah… Andy, that’s about right.

  • Shark

    Marc: “…explain to me how… a “comedy” piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing.”

    The Left usually make jokes, satire, funny sketches on late night tv, and if lucky, a little laughter.

    The Right usually shoot people and blow things up. All the best assassins were Right Wingers.

    (see “Anti-aboritionist Christians who murder Doctors in order to demonstrate that they are Pro-Life”)

    Ahahahahahahaha.

    See the difference?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    We have folks going on hunger strikes for you Steve. I hope it works!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>The Right usually shoot people and blow things up. All the best assassins were Right Wingers.<<

    Not to rain on your parade, but historicallly most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America. This, in fact, is the political persuasion of the founders of moveon.org.

    Currently the most active terrorist groups worldwide aside from fundamentalist moslems are all leftwing groups. Here in the US the most prominent of those would be the ELF and ALF ecoterrorists. Hey, the Unabomber was a leftie – he sure was funny what with killing 2 people and maiming 23.

    Dave

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    You beat me to it Dave.

    Shark there isn’t any difference, they are all nutjobs of the first order.

    Andy after viewing your link, consider this the start of a betting pool.

    What happens first:

    Bush throwing caution to the political winds and clamping shut the border.

    Or that fat sow of a human reaching 98lbs.

    Anyone caught Fedexing White Castle burgers to that sow will automaticly be disqualified and forfit all monies.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Because of the age and you made no effort to verify what the latest on the story was. You posted that glaring headline for two possible reasons. One you were too damm lazy to check. Or two, in hopes of making a point about vigilantism on the border.

    Obviously it is about making a point of vigilantism, since that is the premise of the whole post. Just because the guy was cleared of charges (and I’m glad, because that means nothing bad probably happened), doesn’t mean there isn’t a rise of pro-Aryan and pro-Christian activity in this country.

    My link in comment 15 failed. Do a google search on Trinity College, 43 minorities, and see if you don’t come up with a report from earlier this week in how terror threats against minorities has affected that Christian university.

    I posted a link about hate crimes against gay people on the rise. This isn’t done by SUV-haters.

    Source please. Where is it reported the Minutemen removed water or food?

    It’s in the original post that nobody bothered to read. It is from the MinuteMen’s own words, they posted on Free REpublic about how they are feeding that stuff to their hunting dogs.

    Then you support Dean using terminology such as “evil,” or “We have got to start laying the groundwork for a national party, for a national message. … [Republicans] are mean. They are not nice people.”

    I don’t agree with the national party, but the rest, yest I agree 100%. Republicans are meaner than shit. Here I am trying to save lives, and prove that this constant portrayal of Christianity being under attack is motivating extremists into action, complete with proof of hate crimes on the rise and you all are trying to turn this into an attack on liberals. You can’t get over your partisanship to save lives. I think Republicans are evil and are not willing to compromise. ANd I also think that the extremists that the Republicans pandered to for votes, now have more power than the mainstream Republican and that the party has a whole has become far more extreme and has practically zero ‘mainstream’ left. I can think of no other reason why you all are dismissing the terror people are going through, that I am documenting.

    Wouldn’t that embolden some on the extremist left? Sure it would, but you may never admit it.

    I deleted this top part so forgot what would embolden the left, but yes folks, there are extremists on the left who probably kill. I don’t know because I am not one of their targets. And the premise is about how the REpublican movement has openly endorsed ideological killers such as Randall Terry and (see link in comment 45) as legitimate spokesmen for their movement. I can find no such equivalent on the left.

    Since the link with question marks always breaks, there is a clickable link for the search engines in comment 45. Here it is for the rest of us: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20050509&s=blumenthal

    you see nothing wrong in Clark not condemning Moore’s calling a president a deserter?

    I am trying to prove to you guys that right wing extremists are embolden into action, and you are trying to water that down with semantics of my choice of presidential candidate. I would say that makes you most evil indeed. Clark should have condemned Moore. Happy now?

    Let me guess you don’t believe these idiots don’t cause the likes of International answer, Code Pink or the recent pie throwing assasins that have stalked a few conservatives to act in extreme ways.

    I link to a report showing hate crimes, that which kills people and/or puts them in the emergency room, is on the rise due to vigilantism and you want to counter with a pie-thrower? Either evil or stupid.

    Pot, Kettle, BLACK

    the whole premise of the post is not an attack on Republican ideology. It is about extremism and vigilantism and how your leaders are coupling with the extremist leaders. Call me whatever you want, I’m going to go on trying to save lives, I just know after this thread to include the fact that mainstream Republicans endorse the extremists, and if you point it out, they will just attack you. (which of course further emboldens the extremists)

    removing food and water from the desert is murder, but from a hospice house in FL, it’s just a nice thing to do? What a fucking hypocrite!!!

    I would say the difference there is that it was Terri’s choice. It is not the choice of the illegal immigrant. They should just be detained and sent back to the border.

    Steve explain to me how Air America can broadcast a “comedy” piece that advocates the murder of the President and not enflame the kooks, nutjobs and various and sundry extreme left wing. Or is that somehow different?

    No, that should not have been done. I’m not entirely familiar with it, only vaguely, but it does sound wrong to me. However, people are not currently dying because of that radio show.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    No, it was Terri’s choice according to her husband. And it’s an illegal immigrants choice to attempt to cross miles and miles of uninhabited wasteland to cross a border. Maybe they should carry their own food and water? Why are they entitled to free food and water? I don’t get it when I drive across country?

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    No, it was Terri’s choice according to her husband.

    which, according to your side, is the most sacrosanct relationship on the planet (between husband and wife). We, as a society, give the spouse the right to speak on behalf of the other. At least until it conflicts with your ideology.

    I don’t get it when I drive across country?

    Andy, there is SOOOOOO much you just don’t get. They aren’t driving. Yes, they are committing a crime, but it is NOT a crime punishable by death. They are seeking a better life, granted they are doing it wrong, but I am just floored that all the republicans here are okay with people putting their lives in jeopardy.

  • Shark

    Nalle: “…most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America.”

    Yah, you’re right, Dave. My bad…

    Those “leftists” killed:

    John F. Kennedy
    Medgar Evers
    Robert Kennedy
    Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Feh.

    PS:

    John Wilkes Booth = White Supremist

    Timothy McVeigh = right winger

    Terry Nichols = right winger

    Eric Rudolph (Atlanta Olympic Park Bomber) – Anti-abortion Christoid Murderer

    Dan White(killed Harvey Milk) = notorious homophobe

    ============

    In recent history, the Left only had Ted K. (who was mostly RIGHT, btw) and Squeeky Fromm, who, being a stoned hippie, couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Hinkley?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    That’s not really fair, Hinkley was a lousy shot, lucky for Ronnie!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    And I thought of this last night: since my posts and comments are too long for people to read, I don’t think pushing books here is the best thing for BC. Perhaps other products should be marketed.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Shark sure has a funny idea of what the Right Wing is. To classify McVeigh and Nichols as Right Wing is to completely misunderstand both their philosophy and the mainstream conservative philosophy in the US. And, of course, Sirhand Sirhan was an anti-Israel leftist who has been championed by many Democrats since his incarceration.

    He also selectively ignores Leon Czolgosz who was a socialist anarchist and killed President William McKinley, as well as the Black Panther Party, Symbioneze Liberation Army, Weathermen and numerous other terrorist groups of the 1960s which were all leftist in orientation.

    Save

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dave, extremists who harm are bad on either side. But please help save lives here, okay? Democratic leaders do not attend seminars/conferences and photo opportunities with ideological killers. Please, Dave, where is your compassion? Do you not see ANY validity in what I am saying?

  • JR

    Dave Nalle: Shark sure has a funny idea of what the Right Wing is.

    Look who’s talking.

    Leon Czolgosz – oh yeah, he’s relevent.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I see selective validity to what you’re saying. I don’t have as much sympathy for illegal aliens as you do, and I don’t feel much difference between a Republican ignorant of the background of a Minuteman endorsing him because of what he’s attempting to do, and a Democrat supporting Arafat or Castro or any of the many ideological killers they’ve supported over the years out of ignorance, naivete or whatever reasons they have.

    There is certainly a general validity for condemning politicians for embracing unsavory characters who happen to share their political position on a given issue, but to make it look like a Republican problem is truly deceptive, and implying that the Republicans are supporting the minutemen because they agree with the racist views of a few of them is just an outright lie.

    As I’ve said before, I’m against extremism in all its forms, but trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly is a form of extremism in and of itself.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I don’t feel much difference between a Republican ignorant of the background of a Minuteman

    Were Republicans ignorant of Randall Terry’s background? Were Republicans ignorant of Bo Gritz’s background? Referring to my link in comment 72, are Republicans ignorant of Tony Perkin’s ties with racist groups? What DO the REpublicans know about those they lie in an ideological bed with?

    implying that the Republicans are supporting the minutemen because they agree with the racist views of a few of them is just an outright lie.

    In the post that nobody read, I did not say that there was support together because they all agree with racist views. The Republicans have an agenda to promote (yes, Dave, so do liberals), but the republicans are using extremists as their ideological spokesmen. That doesn’t mean that the republicans support the ideology of the spokesman, but it DOES have a consequence to people in that it emboldens right-wing extremists.

    but trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly

    I’m not the one associating them! It’s all documented above, complete with links for your viewing pleasure! They CHOOSE to be associated publicly together.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    For additional documentation:

    from the washington post:

    (quote) The statement by one of the sponsors of tomorrow’s event, Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, is an example of the Holy War that is being launched by the right. In one of the most outrageous smears to be uttered by a so-called religious leader, Perkins said that “activist courts, aided by liberal interest groups . . . have been quietly working under the veil of the judiciary, like thieves in the night, to rob us of our Christian heritage and our religious freedoms.” That is an unmitigated lie that should not be allowed to stand.

    Which judges are out to rob Christians of their heritage? That is religious McCarthyism. Perkins should name them, provide evidence of their attempted theft of “our Christian heritage” or retract that statement with an apology. Don’t count on that happening.(end quote)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    For additional documentation:

    from the nation:

    (quote)On Justice Sunday, Perkins introduced Frist as “a friend of the family”….

    With Justice Sunday, Perkins’s ambition to become a national conservative leader was ratified; Bill Frist’s presidential campaign for 2008 was advanced with the Christian right; and the faithful were imbued with the notion that they are being victimized by liberal Democratic evildoers.
    (end quote)

    read the whole article to understand how people like Frist are ideologically endorsing people like racist Perkins.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    For additional documentation:

    from the Family Research Council’s own website:

    (quote)Q — How have activist judges abused their power?

    A — Judges are abusing their power if they read into the Constitution principles that are not declared by the plain language of the Constitution. For example, the First Amendment says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” But nowhere does it say that there should be a strict “separation of church and state” at all levels of government, barring any acknowledgment of God. The decision legalizing abortion was based on the “right to privacy” — but no such right is declared in the Constitution.
    (end quote)

    That clearly tells us that the religious right has the separation of church and state and the right to privacy in their crosshairs. And they have the endorsement of Republican Majority Leader Frist.

  • Shark

    Dave The Deluded “moderate” Hypocrite sez: “…trying to discredit relatively mainstream politicians with reasonable positions by associating them with extremists unfairly is a form of extremism in and of itself.”

    This — from the same guy who said:

    “…most successful assassins have been radical socialist anarchists who would currently identify themselves more with the left than the right in America. This, in fact, is the political persuasion of the founders of moveon.org.”

    Mr. I’m A Moderate With Integrity links assassins, social anarchists, the left in America, and moveon.org in one bullshit, Orwellian masterpiece of right-wing blather.

    Next Post: *”How to speak to Dave Coulter.”

    The irony is just too much.

  • Shark

    re: Hinckley + Squeeky Fromme

    I rest my case: liberals are always lousy shots.

    (The really good gun handlers are disproportionately Conservative. Coincidence? About as coincidental as Tom Delay coming from a career as a professional Exterminator.)

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I’m still trying to figure out the earlier comment made by marc, of a pie-throwing assassin.

    Did somebody die by cobbler somewhere?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Did squeeky even get off a shot?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Shark, where did you get the idea that I’m a moderate? I’m in favor of moderates because they’re less troublesome than right or left wing radicals, but I’m a radical extremist in my own right.

    Just as the radical right makes religion their banner cause and the radical left makes social justice their banner cause, I make freedom my banner cause, and will go to any extreme to promote and protect it from either the right or the left.

    Not that you bother to read any of the actual articles on BC, Shark – but if you had bothered to read mine I spend more time attacking the religious right than most people on here, but unlike your goofy emotional ideology-driven attacks, mine make sense.

    Dave

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    but if you had bothered to read mine I spend more time attacking the religious right than most people on here, but unlike your goofy emotional ideology-driven attacks, mine make sense.

    do ever go one fucking day of your life without accusing somebody of either not reading your articles and/or comments?

    we read it.

    we just don’t happen to agree with some of it.

    why is that so hard for you to understand?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    Are you actually supposed to read the posts before you make comments on them?

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php marc

    Steve S. Obviously it is about making a point of vigilantism, since that is the premise of the whole post.

    And you attempted to use that story that had nothing to do with the Minutemen or vigilantism and everything to do with an average citizen that felt threatened and reacted. But by posting the link you attempt to spin it into something different.

    Hey steve, better check “your Google” me thinks it’s broken.

    Here is what you claim to have found “Do a google search on Trinity College, 43 minorities, and see if you don’t come up with a report from earlier this week in how terror threats against minorities has affected that Christian university.

    Again you failed to do your homework and posted a completely unrelated story. It’s getting to be a bad habit. Or is it willful scare tactics?

    Here’s the real story:

    “A black college student who admitted sending hate mail has been told to avoid contact with other students at Illinois’ Trinity College as a condition of bail.”

    Ya see the poor baby didn’t like the College mama sent her to and made up the hate mail in an effort to change mama’s mind about her selection. “Oh mama, poor is me,I’M scaaaaared!!!

    But, I’ll give you a chance; please explain how one whiney bitch of a college student who wound up in jail for her actions is related to religious hatred?

    Come on clue us all in….. we’re waiting…..

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    And you attempted to use that story that had nothing to do with the Minutemen or vigilantism and everything to do with an average citizen that felt threatened and reacted.

    wouldn’t have felt threatened if he wasn’t running around the border armed but left it to the Border Patrol, huh?

    Again you failed to do your homework and posted a completely unrelated story. It’s getting to be a bad habit. Or is it willful scare tactics?

    I posted that story 15 minutes after Yahoo news published it. I doubt even Yahoo would have been able to complete the story as it was ‘in progess’ at the time of the posting.

    Marc, whether you like it or not, there is a rise in vigilantism in this country and it is fueled by the Republican party ‘s incestuous and open relationship with Aryan racists who openly promote killing. Too bad, so sad, people all over other blogs are starting to see it. It’s not my problem if you choose to not see it.

  • Shark

    DaveNalle: “…where did you get the idea that I’m a moderate?”

    Dave, I got the idea yer a fucking hypocrite.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Marc, I have posted evidence that the judge in the Schiavo case, as well as a California conservative Republican judge who recently ruled in favor of same-sex marriage have to have 24/7 bodyguards.

    Conservatives have long portrayed judges as being anti-American. Coincidence?

    I have posted evidence that hate crimes against gays and lesbians are on the rise. Conservatives have long portrayed gays and lesbians as a threat to their society. Coincidence?

    Conservatives have long portrayed illegals crossing the border as an immenient problem (and yes, it is a serious problem), but now we have as a result what PRESIDENT BUSH calls vigilantes on the border. Coincidence?

    Your cranial cavity is missing some grey matter, seriously. You can dismiss the evidence all you want, thankfully many, many people are starting to see it, and it’s not due to me, it’s due to the evidence in front of them.

  • Shark

    DaveNalle: “…I make freedom my banner cause, and will go to any extreme to promote and protect it…”

    GeorgeOrwell: “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    “What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.” – Robert Francis Kennedy

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php marc

    Steve “wouldn’t have felt threatened if he wasn’t running around the border armed but left it to the Border Patrol, huh?

    Once again our ignorance shows through. What is you apparent favorite saying? “Read the post” or “read the linked….”

    He wasn’t “running around the border” he was travelling on I-8 enroute his home in Arizona from Cali. The incident occured when he stopped at a rest stop.

    Throw that shovel away! You may have hit bottom!

    Steve “Too bad, so sad, people all over other blogs are starting to see it. It’s not my problem if you choose to not see it.”

    Nothing to see. I have never questioned whether there is or isn’t a rise in vigilantism.

    What you will find is you attempting to trump up your position by posting unrelated stories that are easily debunked with very little effort.

    And BTW just because Yahoo is behind the times doesn’t excuse you from posting trash. The story on the Trinity bitch broke about 12 hours prior to the time stamp on your comment referencing it.

    So I guess your reading the wrong news source. Or not enough of them.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    okay, the two ‘googled’ items that I pulled from news sources, down in the comments section, while engaging in on-going debate, may not be motivated by vigilantism, but the reaction the individuals/university had, was obviously fueled by an underlying fear that was instigated by the vigilante mood going on in the country.

    HOWEVER, all the original post, Marc does not debunk, he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism, and the connections between Republican leaders and Aryan extremists stands unbunked as well.

    I can live with that.

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php marc

    Steve “Marc does not debunk, he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism, and the connections between Republican leaders “

    And where to hell did I ever say that? You truly are delusional!

    Steve “while engaging in on-going debate”

    And that’s a valid excuse for posting bullshit?

    The fact of the matter is you got into a position where you scrambled to provide substance for your point and
    choose sources that weren’t factual, timely or on topic PERIOD!

    In the heat of the debate my aching ass!

    And the ground swell of left wing moonbattery continues.

    Indy Media Watch reports that Seattle moonbats are busy planning for “Freeze the Media Day

    Freeze the Mesia Day” is when people all around the country drop superglue and toothpicks into the money slots of slimy corperate (sic) media newspaper dispensers…This is a nationwide event, and we’re looking for solidarity everywhere to help spread this empowering message.

    Got your super glue at the ready Steve?

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Marc, in 102, you are the one taking my words out of context.

    I said “all the original post, Marc does not debunk”

    and that is true.

    I said “the connections between Republican leaders and Aryan extremists stands unbunked as well”

    and that is true. I didn’t say you said those things, I said you have debunked none of them. Please practice more on understanding your grammar.

    and what I said you did say was: “he corroborates there is a rise in vigilantism”

    which was derived from your response of:
    “I have never questioned whether there is or isn’t a rise in vigilantism”

    Which we can conclude since all you can do is attack liberals like myself, and since you just revel in debunking things, thinking that is some speciality you have, but you do NOT debunk the most serious charges against your party, one concludes the obvious.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I don’t know what the point is, in supergluing newspaper machines, since out here, the first person to plop in a quarter takes the whole stack of papers to resell on street corners and the newspaper racks are always empty by 7 a.m.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    and before you respond, marc, I suggest you look up the meaning of the word ‘corroborate’.

  • Marc

    “….serious charges against your party, one concludes the obvious.”

    So you have a David Blaine nack for perceiving something that has never been said. ESP as it were.

    You should get into show business. Maybe the Amazing Kreskin will hire you as his opening act.

    You know what they say about assuming something?

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    further documentation of Republican/Nazi ideology for the thread:

    Republican puts forth bill forbidding public libraries from receiving books from gay authors or that include gay characters.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Marc, the premise is just as strong as ever. Perhaps you can scan up the thread and find a comma out of place to zero in on.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    anti gay means nazi? At least you stopped calling yourself a progressive and reverted back to what you really are…a liberal.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    If you clicked on the link, you would see that I wasn’t the one to make the connection, but having said that andy, to YOU, they wouldn’t be the same.

    To a gay person in America, who is facing discrimination put into the Constitution, who is facing having any mention of us removed from public facilities, and who are suffering an increase in violence due to Christian vigilantism, we might have a different perspective that we don’t expect YOU to be able to relate to.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Right Wingers attempt to force 13 year old to have child.

    Further documentation for the thread.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes Steve, all conservatives are Satan, blah blah blah. You’re starting to sound a bit like a teacher in a Taliban elementary school.

    But regarding earlier comments…

    Snark: “GeorgeOrwell: “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.””

    The interesting thing is that each of those maxims is true when looked at with more than superficial attention – which I realize is beyond you.

    As shown in Iraq sometimes the only way to build peace is to make war against the warmakers.

    As anyone who believes in self-reliance knows, the freedom to live your own life brings with it slavery to the responsibilities which a self-reliant life inevitably brings.

    And who could doubt that Ignroance is strength, since the ignorance of extremism carries with it the strength of absolute certainty and self-righteousness – what this discussion is really all about.

    Steve S: RFK – “What is objectionable, what is dangerous, about extremists is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant.”

    “I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” – Barry Goldwater

    The thing about those who are extreme in the defense of liberty is that this means they are extreme in their support of tolerance and their rejection of intolerance. Which isn’t such a bad thing.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Dave, I didn’t say all conservatives were Satan. Their extremist ideology kills, as is being documented. Their mainstream ideology is asleep at the wheel.

    The thing about those who are extreme in the defense of liberty is that this means they are extreme in their support of tolerance and their rejection of intolerance. Which isn’t such a bad thing.

    That sounds all fine and good, but that isn’t you Dave. I point out the consequences of Christian intolerance and you dismiss it and try to debate with me on the evils of liberals. You don’t even fit the quotes you select.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>That sounds all fine and good, but that isn’t you Dave. I point out the consequences of Christian intolerance and you dismiss it and try to debate with me on the evils of liberals. You don’t even fit the quotes you select.<<

    You just don’t get it at all. Tolerance is so foreign to your nature that you don’t even recognize it in others. You see, I’m willing to be tolerant of some pandering to Christian extremists for political purposes without damning those who do it, even if I damn the Christian extremists, just as I’m willing to be tolerant of self-serving political obstructionism on the part of senatorial democrats filibustering just to hold onto a little bit of power. It’s all political opportunism and it’s all equal in my eyes. I sneer and deride, but I tolerate.

    You, on the other hand, damn people by association – at least so long as the people are conservatives. Is someone a racist because he sits on a panel with a racist? Is someone a murderer because he attends church with someone who supports the murder of abortionists? Most reasonable, tolerant people would withold judgement until the person in question makes a clear inidication of their own unacceptable beliefs.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Is someone a racist because he sits on a panel with a racist? Is someone a murderer because he attends church with someone who supports the murder of abortionists?

    What a way to try and rationalize the extremists at the helm.

    No, Dave, NOWHERE in this thread did I say that the entire conservative movement is racist or murderers. I said that the conservative movement has coupled with extremists and the consequences is costing lives and increasing violence. It’s a simple premise. The left gets it. The mainstream right gets what I am saying elsewhere, it’s just here that I’m hitting a brick wall in getting my point across with you. oh well. Now I understand you better at least, and I guess you can say the same for me.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread:

    Al Gore speaks about the Family Research Council’s attack on Judges and the Republican assault on the nomination of judges.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Not sure an Al Gore speech is what we call ‘documentation’ in anything but the technical sense. And I revile you for making me read that drivel, btw. Especially the first page of whining about the election.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I didn’t make you read anything Dave. This isn’t an attack on conservative ideology or on Bush, I think that would exempt this thread from your job description.

    As for documentation, he talks about the attack on the judicial system, the right wing ties of Perkins to it all, and basically corroborates a lot of the stuff I said here, which you guys accused me of being overly paranoid about.

  • Nancy

    I find it ironically amusing that Christians are now screaming about being targets of discrimination and eradication when for over two millenia they themselves have been the foremost practitioners and proponents of religious-based genocide, terror, and disenfranchisement against non-Christians and non-conformists, as well as other sects of Christians. What goes around comes around, and now it’s their turn they don’t like it much. They can dish it out but they can’t take it.

    Ditto both the left and the right: by what I hear and read, liberals are a conspiracy of left-wing bleeding hearts who feel there should be no standards for anything, and conservatives are a pack of neo-nazis who think everyone should be as authoritarian and selfish as they are. Both sides consider that their ego-driven agendas excuse and entitle them to whatever violations of law or rights they feel like perpetrating – in the case of liberals, to aid and abet illegals in the name of “humanitarianism” (during WWII, also known as giving aid and comfort to the enemy – high treason, even for civilians), in the case of conservatives, encroaching on constitutional and Bill of Rights freedoms to keep everyone not of their narrow stripe living and thinking in the way conservatives feel they should.

    Of the two, I can’t decide which is more dangerous or a bigger bunch of fruitcakes. The hubris is tremendous.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Nancy, I would think that the right wing propaganda already has your view distorted as an illegal alien is a criminal, but not an enemy combatant. There is a huge distinction, immigration is a problem, but we have not declared war on Mexico. If you are advocating treating illegal aliens as enemy combatants, then I would say that puts you pretty squarely in the paleo-con category.

    You are implying that my attempt to keep lives on the border from being put in danger is tantamount to treason. I have stated repeatedly that I don’t want to let illegal border crossing continue, it’s wrong and people need to be stopped from doing so, but to advocate that a family with children trying to seek a better life is the equivalent of Osama or Al Zakarwi (sp?) is a horrid America you long for.

  • Nancy

    But by that token, if I grow heroin, in order to make money to have a better life for myself, then I’m absolved of any criminal intent because after all I’m just trying to better my condition? The whole point is, there are people out there who applied and are waiting per the law. Illegals by their intrinsic nature are not only in contempt of the law, but of everyone who is trying to abide by it. They exhibit a paramount selfishness and disregard for the rights of others that is criminally monumental, as are those who feed and water them, thereby encouraging them to continue their reckless endangerment of everyone concerned. This isn’t paleo, it’s having respect for law and order, without which we all degenerate into morlocks.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Nancy, I said “an illegal alien is a criminal”

    and your response was “by that token…I’m absolved of any criminal intent”

    No, your whole reading of what I am saying is just wrong. You are unable to comprehend what I am saying. I did not absolve anybody of criminal intent. An enemy combatant status is not the label that we apply to criminals. I’m sorry you don’t get it and therefore misinterpret everything I am saying.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    it should also be noted that my reference to them as ‘illegal aliens’ would tend to imply that there is something illegal and therefore wrong about their status.

  • Nancy

    I am saying that the behavior and attitudes of illegals put a lot more people at risk than just themselves. I am saying those who aid and abet are only aggravating and encouraging the whole thing, and therefore become accessories in all crimes ensuing therefrom, regardless of whatever high-minded religio-moral hooha they convince themselves makes it OK for them to do so. And bear in mind that the number of innocents and children smuggled in are an extremely small proportion. According to the INS, almost 65% of all illegals are no peace-loving work-seeking humble peasants, but members of gangs and convicted criminals. If coming down hard on illegal aliens saves innocent American lives, so be it. You don’t seem particularly worried about US kiddies and innocent civilians being adversely affected by the crime or – say, a nice pandemic like SARS, or perhaps Marburg -brought in by these people, and helped along by good sams intent on being humanitarian? If I’m misreading you, you are also too quick to label me. As for me being a paleo- I’ll have to save this post to show my conservative co-workers. It should either amuse or outrage them.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    almost 65% of all illegals are no peace-loving work-seeking humble peasants, but members of gangs and convicted criminals

    I don’t know if that number is correct, you provide no sources. Given the number of people who cross the border every day, I would think that if that many are of gang mentality, then only Snake Plissken would be able to govern this state.

    You don’t seem particularly worried about US kiddies and innocent civilians being adversely affected by the crime or – say, a nice pandemic like SARS, or perhaps Marburg -brought in by these people,

    I actually think that revels a zenophobia. People can cross the border in their cars all the time, without really having to get out of the car, and it’s legal too. Do they scan the cars for SARS? No. Disease is just as likely to come across the border legally as illegally.

    Of course I am concerned about US ‘kiddies’. I have one of my own. I also live in a town where English is practically the minority language, I have no ideal who’s legal here and who’s not, there are aliens who work the fields all day long out here, by the busload. Our town has never had a pandemic, our gang rate is not ‘higher’ than anywhere else (and gangs are always a problem). No US ‘kiddies’ have been molested, no kidnaps, no foreign-born diseases, no higher crime rate than any other coastal city of equivalent size, etc.

    Tell them that I called you a paleo because your solution to fix a problem like illegal immigration is to put peoples lives in danger.

    While illegal immigration IS wrong, and while criminal element might and does get through and should be stopped, to go on the assumption that all illegals are as bad as the killer possibly but not necessarily hiding within is a mob mentality, reeks of zenophobia, is unAmerican, and completely substantiates this rise in the endorsement of vigilantism in this country.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Xenophobia is spelled with a ‘x’, Steve. Just for future reference, as I suspect it’s going to be used more and more in coming years.

    >>No US ‘kiddies’ have been molested, no kidnaps, no foreign-born diseases, no higher crime rate than any other coastal city of equivalent size, etc.< <

    May I direct you to the case of Angel Resendez AKA Rafael Resendez-Ramirez or the “Railway Killer”, illegal alien and serial killer, credited with at least 9 murders – mostly here in Texas – and notable for his ability to evade identification because he was able to slip back and forth accross the border and establish multiple identities within the illegal alien community. The mechanisms which have developed for keeping illegals anonymous and not asking them too many questions gave him the cover he needed to keep killing for years without getting caught.

    Estimates are that every day at least 75 non-mexican illegals come accross the border from Mexico, including many fromt he Middle East. It has already been established that Al Quaeda has trained at least some operatives in the Spanish language so that they could take advantage of the porousness of our borders.

    In addition, the international criminal organization MS13 which originates in El Salvador has been using the Mexican border to smuggle their members into the US, where they are taking over more and more criminal operations – particularly violent organized crime – in the major cities. Their manpower is almost entirely composed of illegal immigrants who come into the US from Mexico and they are known for their extreme violence, including murdering an raping other illegals on the border.

    My point, Steve, is that it’s not xenophobia if the threat is real.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    just shows you how foreign the word is to me, Dave.

    and I acknowledged “while criminal element might and does get through and should be stopped“, so I am aware of criminal element that does get through, probably from a much closer viewpoint than those who are exhibiting xenophobia.

    I was wondering when Al Queda would be brought up. It’s common knowledge that the only person ever caught since 9/11 trying to cross the border with explosives, intent on harming the US, was caught on the Canadian border, where nobody is frothing at the mouth.

    With this endorsement of vigilantism on the border, with vigilantism requiring the protection of our judges, with vigilantism resulting in a rise in hate crimes against minorites, why don’t you all just tell the government to just stop with law enforcement and advocate that we become a nation of civilians running around with shotguns and pitchforks and torches?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>With this endorsement of vigilantism on the border, with vigilantism requiring the protection of our judges, with vigilantism resulting in a rise in hate crimes against minorites, why don’t you all just tell the government to just stop with law enforcement and advocate that we become a nation of civilians running around with shotguns and pitchforks and torches?
    <<

    At the most basic level that’s what we’ve always been, Steve. Law and order is ultimately the responsibility of the citizenry if the mechanisms we’ve put in place to maintain it are not doing their jobs. And that’s what this whole border issue comes down to – outrage over the fact that our government is not doing one of the jobs it was created to do. Vigelantism probably isn’t the best answer, but a lot of people feel that the government won’t respond to anything but the most extreme embarassment and media pressure. Remember, the first reaction to the Minuteman Project was that the Border Patrol send 500 more men down to the area.

    As for the Canadian border, I completely agree. It has the potential to be an even bigger disaster than the border with Mexico, especially considering Canada’s complete lack of any kind of responsible management of their own immigration policies.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I understand and agree with your reasoning as to why vigilantism is on the rise. I know it is an exasperation over the Republican controlled government in doing anything. (Heehee).

    Where is the logic in assuming that if the government can’t make things better on the border, that they can make things better (safer for us) in Baghdad?

    500 border patrol agents weren’t sent to catch immigrants, when mention of the MinuteMen came up, I’m sure, but it was probably an instance where 500 border patrol agents were pulled from catching illegals elsewhere and set to babysitting.

    Illegal immigration is best solved, as I stated earlier by forcing Mexico to get rid of it’s corruption and to make that place not such a hostile environment so that fewer people have an interest in seeking a better life here. It is in the best interest of our own national security to do so. Vigilantism is not in the best interest of our own national security. I don’t advocate trying to stop a bleeding cut on the knee by slicing open the achilles tendon.

    And of course with the cowboy we have right now, it seems that partisianship with Vicente Fox is an impossibility. We can’t get the best solution implemented when we have someone who is so isolationist running the helm.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>I understand and agree with your reasoning as to why vigilantism is on the rise. I know it is an exasperation over the Republican controlled government in doing anything. (Heehee).< <

    This isn't a problem with the current administration, it is a problem which dates back decades and no one from either party has done anything to fix it.

    >>Where is the logic in assuming that if the government can’t make things better on the border, that they can make things better (safer for us) in Baghdad?< <

    Because in Baghdad they're actually making an effort, which they aren't doing on the border.

    >>Illegal immigration is best solved, as I stated earlier by forcing Mexico to get rid of it’s corruption and to make that place not such a hostile environment so that fewer people have an interest in seeking a better life here. It is in the best interest of our own national security to do so.< <

    So in the interests of national security we should invade Mexico for the third time?

    >> Vigilantism is not in the best interest of our own national security. I don’t advocate trying to stop a bleeding cut on the knee by slicing open the achilles tendon.< <

    This very mild vigelantism is a way for people to show their concern. It's really not much different from a protest march.

    >>And of course with the cowboy we have right now, it seems that partisianship with Vicente Fox is an impossibility. We can’t get the best solution implemented when we have someone who is so isolationist running the helm.<<

    You seem very confused about Bush. He gets on famously with Vicente Fox and is more knowledgable about Mexico than any president we’ve ever had. His plan to set up a guest worker program is probably one of the best solutions to the current situation, but it’s not getting taken seriously in the furror over vigelantism and the flood of immigrants.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I acknowledge the first statement, which is why I concluded mine with a hee-hee.

    So in the interests of national security we should invade Mexico for the third time?

    No, your side should learn that in the saying ‘war is a last resort’, it really should be a LAST resort. I’m talking about diplomacy, working with the Mexican government to solve the crisis, not overtaking the Mexican government. I do not support the conservative rush to war or vigilantism. Violence and a pro-agressive hostile response is not the answer to everything.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Have you SEEN some of the stuff the Mexican government has been doing? Comic books on how to cross the border? Tacitly allowing Federal Snipers to shoot border patrol agents? Providing food and water and other suppplies to those crossing the border? The Mexican government isn’t incompetent and corrupt, they are actively encouraging illegal emigration to the US because it’s now the single largest source of revenue for their nation, outstripping both oil and tourism as of this year. Why on earth would they want to negotiate? They’ve got it good.

    Dave

  • SFC SKI

    Mexico’s government is riddled with corruption as well, and Fox is not proving to be either willing or able to do anything about it.

    I don’t know too much more than that though, so if anyone is a subject matter expert on Mexican politics, I’d like to learn more.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Documentation for thread:

    CNN report on evolution being under trial in Kansas, contains this statement:

    Many prominent U.S. scientific groups have denounced the debate as founded on fallacy and have promised to boycott the hearings, which opponents say are part of a larger nationwide effort by religious interests to gain control over government.

    article also contains,

    School board member Sue Gamble, who describes herself as a moderate, said she will not attend the hearings, which she calls “a farce.” She said the argument over evolution is part of a larger agenda by Christian conservatives to gradually alter the legal and social landscape in the United States.

    “I think it is a desire by a minority… to establish a theocracy, both within Kansas and growing to a national level,” Gamble said.

    Just documenting that moderates are now using the term ‘theocracy’, not just those of us in the asylum.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for rise of religious based intolerance growing in America.

    Christian church excommunicates liberals, Democrats.

    Reading through the updates at the bottom of the blog shows that the Church said if you voted for Kerry or voted Democrat, then you were against the Church and had to leave.

    and ya still don’t wanna believe.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Steve, a loony Baptist church kicking all the sane people out isn’t a new event, nor is it a sign of a greater trend. Those people should have been happy to have escaped what is essentially a cult.

    BTW, could you please stop posting your stories from Kos and go direct to a MSM source or something. Every time you post from Kos I have to go look up another source because there’s a fair chance that if it’s from Kos it’s been misrepresented or spun in some way.

    In this case Kos does have a link to the TV story, though the newspaper they link to is not covering the story. It also appears that their claim of excommunication is incorrect. The people were asked to leave the church, which is not the same thing as a formal excommunication.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Well no, Kos is a valid source for information. Most of the diaries are written by people all across America, so you do get a variety of perspective thrown into the story, but you still get the story.

    Dave, you call me insane for even thinking there’s a rise in Christian vigilantism. So how do you think I could link to a MSM story? I’m not talking about the Runaway Bride. I’m like the only one trying to link a series of events around the country together to illustrate a trend.

    I picked up the term excommunicate from the story itself. Whether it is accurate or if they were just asked to leave what the church says is the only way to Heaven makes no difference to me. It doesn’t lessen the intolerance or the trend any.

    Dave, it’s like if society is one big city, I live more on the outskirts and you live more in the center. When night falls, or the winds come in, it all hits the outskirts first. Know what I mean?

    I lived through a very conservative swing of the pendulum once. The Reagan era. Scores of my community died from religious intolerance, in the form of phobias supressing the dissemination of life saving information, or in the ostracization of terminally ill people, hate crimes were at an all time high, etc. and no, I don’t have documentation to back that up, I don’t need it to forumulate my opinion. I was there on the outskirts, most every gay person I knew when I was running around in crowds had been a victim of a violent crime based on orientation at some point in his/her life. Nobody bothered to report it.

    Given the fact that since these last two presidential elections, my community is under legislative attack like never before, in schools, in the medical establishment, via recognition of our relationships, etc., and given the fact that this well-documented intolerance is on the rise, I know that my community has been primarily relocated to the outskirts and night is falling. Meaning – the pendulum is swinging and my community is always one of the first it hits.

    I’m gonna keep posting references to religious based intolerance until it quits rising. If I can make just one member of my community a little more aware, a little more cautious and some bad possibility is then avoided, it will be worth it.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    For what it’s worth, Steve, you have heightened my awareness of religious intolerance. I’m keeping an eye out for it, anyway. I’m not convinced it’s an epidemic yet, but I will agree there are some objectionable examples.

    Kos, however, is not a reliable news source. Everything there has been filtered just a bit too much for me.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    That’s cool. This thread is really more for the people on the outskirts anyway. You don’t have to click on the links just yet, if you don’t want to.

    But I do appreciate that you read this thread Dave.

    further documentation for thread:

    second investigation in two years begins in religious bias, proselytizing and Christian favoritism at the Air Force Academy.

    The Colorado Springs Gazette obtains a report from a year earlier, which showed this intolerance already becoming a problem.

    Some key quotes from the article:

    “Anyone who is not conservative Christian would begin to realize they have to get with the message or find ways to survive outside the message,” said Kristen Leslie, a Methodist who holds a doctorate in pastoral care and counseling and led Yale’s visiting team.

    “For anyone to differentiate themselves is very problematic and even threatening.”

  • Mike

    As is typical of any religion that claims to have exclusive access to the “Word of God,” christianity is a faith based in paranoia. If it aint the devil that’s gonna git ya, it’s them godless sinners. It is not surprising, therefore, that the most rigid christian fundamentalists link disagreement even with their political views to an attack on their god.

    Mike

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread.

    The Minneapolis Star Tribune reports:

    “Responding to a directive from the Vatican, Archbishop Harry Flynn has advised all parishes in the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis to deny communion to anyone wearing a rainbow-colored sash.”

    Gays and lesbians in St. Paul and Minneapolis may no longer receive communion unless they return to the closet.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread.

    A judge has suspended a safe sex education class in high school for having an anti-religious bias.

    The Southern Baptist Press reports:

    The curriculum — aimed at eighth- and 10th-graders — claims that Jesus “said absolutely nothing at all about homosexuality” and that being homosexual is similar to being left-handed. It notes that some Baptist churches once defended racial segregation, implying that conservative Baptists today are on the wrong side of history. It also says that future generations likely will view today’s traditional beliefs on homosexuality with “astonishment” and that “religion has often been misused to justify hatred and oppression.”

    If a school says that religions has been used to justify hatred and oppression, then that school now has an anti-religious bias. So look for schools to quit presenting that line of thought, actual history be damned.

    Should schools present the fact that I am just like a left-handed person, that school is now presenting an anti-religious bias. Sad irony that I AM left handed.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    If you keep adding to this thread you’re going to have to turn it into a book and publish it, Steve.

    You could call it “Bad Religion: Southern Baptists I’ve Loved to Hate”.

    This textbook may be just fine in many ways, but I’m not sure about this:

    “It notes that some Baptist churches once defended racial segregation, implying that conservative Baptists today are on the wrong side of history.”

    Doesn’t negative commentary on a specific religion seem rather uncalled for in a sex ed text?

    As I see it this is as much a violation of church and state as prayer in school. By all means keep religion out of the school, but that should also mean that the curriculum shouldn’t single out religion for criticism or persecution.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Doesn’t negative commentary on a specific religion seem rather uncalled for in a sex ed text?

    presented like that, yes, I can see how it seems odd, but I can also understand how it is brought up.

    one of the things sex ed talks about is sexual orientation. Certainly current societal perceptions of sexual orientation should be open for discussion. That would include discussion of groups who are intolerant of different types of orientation. I can see how that would be a valid topic of discussion in sex ed. Sex ed is about more than just the act. It is also about sex’s role in society.

    As for the ‘wrong side of history’ comment, the right winger said it is implying that. I think that would be subjective. Some Baptist churches DID defend racial segregation. That is not an implication as much as it is a fact. Whether one wants to ‘infer’ that the defense of racial segregation would put them on the wrong side of history, I guess depends on how they feel about racial segregation now.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    and I don’t hate anybody, Dave.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Talking about Baptist churches defending segregation might have a place in a history text, but not in a sex-ed text, IMO. A Sex Ed text doesn’t need to talk about Baptists specifically to talk about prejudice over sexual orientation. There ARE baptists out there who are not anti-gay. The church is one of the most fractured around. It just seems inappropriate.

    And I respect you for not hating anyone, Steve – but don’t you think maybe you should hate some people? Some people are hateful.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I don’t know the actual context or the actual presentation of the class. I only know what is in the link I provided.

    When talking about orientation and the instances in life where people can be intolerant about it, I can see where kids (remember the age group) might ask questions and segregation could be used as an example. I don’t know the premise of the class. I CAN see that it would be stupid to have to say ‘I can’t answer that, the class might be shut down’.

    If only more straight people could experience what it is like…in order to respect someone’s faith, EVERY public mention of who you are as a person, MUST have a ‘disclaimer’. To respect THEIR opinions, to respect THEIR faith, it is the gay person who must go through life forever offering a counterpoint to the validity of their humanity. Try walking in those shoes sometimes, and then you might begin to see that it is impossible to respect one’s faith without condemning another, because religion is all about good vs. evil, and that’s really all it’s about. I exhibit far more tolerance than people can perceive of, coming from me, I believe.

    And what is to be gained by hating? I can be so adamant against intolerance, can you imagine if I actually hated the intolerant ones? I’m only human (meaning someone could probably dig through the archives and find examples where I have failed), but I always try to go after the ideology, never the person. I’ve never called anyone a bigot, never attacked their weight, physical appearance, spelling and grammar, their character, etc. never engaged in a lot of what debate can turn into here. I diligently try to never do it anyway.

    But I do know that my presentation of the facts can be as forceful as a personal attack and can be perceived as such. I can get exasperated and frustrated that people cannot see the harm in their ideology, but what can be gained by hating? Would it make me adhere to my beliefs even more adamantly like the fundies adhere to theirs? Is it even possible for me to more strongly believe in what I already believe in? I’m not sure. Most importantly, how can hate help me bring about the tolerant world I long for?

    Look at what religion is doing to the country, what it’s doing to the world. There’s already enough hate, done in the name of the Lord, on this planet. I don’t need to add to it.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I see what you’re saying, Steve, but not hating implies a willingness to forgive almost anyone, and I don’t see forgiveness as an option for those whose crimes are truly abominable. Perhaps hate is the wrong word, but there are some people and actions which just have to be singled out as abominable and unacceptable and IMO worth of hate. And I’m not talking about relatively minor things like a little ill-conceived religious bigotry. I’m concerned about Baptists not liking gays, but I reserve hate for people like Hitler who actually send them to death camps.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    at the risk of sounding pretentious, perhaps I don’t know what hate feels like.

    I define hate as wishing ill on others. I don’t know that I wish ill on anybody. I can say things like ‘I hate lima beans’, but I don’t really care to seek them out and stomp them underneath my boot. So I don’t know that I really HATE them, as much as I just prefer to not eat them.

    I guess I don’t know what hate feels like. So it could be possible that I feel it, and don’t know it. But I define hate as wishing ill on someone, and I wish ill on nobody.

    I can believe (and do believe) that Hitler was a monster. Do I hate him? I don’t know, how can I feel emotion towards someone who died before I was born? I can think he was evil (and I do), but is THAT hatred? I don’t know, maybe I do hate but don’t know what hate feels like, so don’t know when I am experiencing it. Here’s a good question for everybody (would probably be best posted on a blog that people actually read): how do you define the hate you feel for something/someone? It would be interesting to see the variety of perspectives.

    Regarding ‘minor things’ like a little ill-conceived religious bigotry, look at it this way:

    You have a neighbor who upends his trash bag over the fence, dumping his garbage in your yard. It’s a little ‘minor thing’, but now consider that he does it every morning. Still minor, Dave?

    And how is it ‘minor’ that in regards to acknowledging you as a person, there MUST always be the notification that there is a ‘way out’ for those who don’t want to be like you, as well?

  • Keith Drummond

    Dear Steve:

    I printed out and read — when I should have been working (but I work at home just now so what the H?) — your article and all the comments to it. I found your link on planetout.com and posted some thoughts there, but, if you don’t mind, I’m going to copy and paste the salient paragraph here:

    How DO we address evil, i.e., these repellent people’s willingness to offer human sacrifices of all sorts — Blacks, Mexicans, queers, Muslims — to their unspeakable god? So much of the trouble, it seems to me, lies in the simple MORAL imperative that we cannot turn round and inflict evil ourselves even though great evil is being inflicted upon us, otherwise we’d end up in open and even, to a degree, just war against them. But the old saw about “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,” is as true as ever; unfortunately, there isn’t a one of them who would do us a similar courtesy. Just as in the late 1930s in Germany where the NAZIs played on the decency of ordinary folks (in which they themselves didn’t believe for a New York second) to further their own revolting and, untimately, horrendously self-destructive end — today we have powerful politicians playing on the shibboleths of the Religious Reich. In other words, WE are left vulnerable. Though the fundamentalists would scream in indignation at this characterization, THEY’RE the ones who’ve loosed the four horsemen of the apocalypse: Ignorance, fear, bigotry and hatred. (THAT from a friend in Boston, bless her!) Their determination to take over education and see to it that history, science and well-reasoned logic cannot be taught is part and parcel of the whole in which gay marriage is included, because all three would inevitably strike at the very root of their own misguided beliefs. In fact all of the twaddle they preach is part and parcel of something I really do not know how to fight effectively, except to continue to live and think and write and hope — yes, and even pray — that, somehow, somewhere, the message will get through that the individual rather than feculent and neolithic tribal imperatives is what matters.

    Especially in view your repeated attempts to discuss the very simple proposition that human life is to be valued REGARDLESS of anything else! I have had to deal with folks who are “hard of listening” all my LONG life. Unfortunately, one unpalatable truth I have learned is that “I’ve made up my mind; don’t confuse me with facts” in an inevitable concomitant of that kind of willful refusal to, as it were, narrow the field to focus on the topic under discussion is fairly common. (Pardon the split infinitive!) Probably because facing a probative and reasoned argument head on just might start gnawing at long-held emotional crutches.

    I’m with you: Killing folks, even if it be by neglect and indirection, is every bit as much murder, MORALLY speaking, as if one pulled out a gun and just blew ‘em away. Possibly, even worse, because given the fancy dancing in the media, it’s clear these wankers KNOW their xenophobic stance is not only intolerant but intolerable to the vast majority of good folks. But then of course it would NEVER do, now, would it, for physical cowards actually to be forced actually to confront their living and breathing victims who might actually be capable fo defending themselves?

    I’m with you. SOMETHING has to be done about regulating immigration. But every single white person in this country descends from some European loser who came here to find a better life. It’s unconscionable that vigilantes and self-proclaimed patriots who are little more than lawless, vicious men have been given the space to do what our feckless government won’t do!

    And thank you for struggling so wonderfully to REMAIN reasonable.

    Yours,

    Keith Drummond

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Thank you Keith, for that comment. I appreciate it.

    Some of the scariest things of this whole thread was seeing the responses rationalizing putting illegal immigrants in life-threatening situations. ‘They are breaking the law after all. They deserve it, they do it to themselves’. Sound familiar?

    Illegal immigration is a crime, yes, but some of the solutions to fixing it are akin to getting your hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread.

    I don’t know what is happening to my country anymore. It’s just sad. Thank you for your comment and support.

  • Keith Drummond

    Dear Steve:

    I don’t either. And as a gay man of, ah, a certain age, this whole development is more frightening and alarming than even the pervasive homophobia of the forties and fifties! Right now, though friends tell me I am not obviously gay (whatever that means), I frankly would rather walk through the Tenderloin in San Francisco than down a street in Walnut Creek or Pleasanton; I would certainly feel less apprehensive!

    Commission of a crime, much less inculcated prejudices, can NEVER be an excuse for wildly disproportionate punishment. One of the more appalling aspects of the prevailing form of christianity is its wholesale reliance on Old Testament barbarisms. I AM a Christian, though the word has become so debased, I’m half ashamed to use it! And all this hankering after punishment is unthinkable in light of the Great Commandments of Jesus. At least *I* think so.

    And besides, it would do us all well to remember that there have been many laws throughout history the breakers of which are now reckoned heroes! To have signed the Declaration of Independence in 1775 was a hanging offense! Just to sympathize with the Resistance Fighters in World War II got you shot by the NAZIs! There was even a time in THIS country when to steal a loaf of bread because you were hungry was sufficient to get you off.

    Or the reverse: The Conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 by the Crusaders (such heroes!) was followed by one of the most repellent blood baths in history, with the Bishop of Winchester, addressing a question about the native Christians, “Kill them all and let God sort them out!” I have a good friend, gainfully employed, upstanding citizen and very moral man who spent FIVE YEARS in a prison in Mississippi for, in his admittedly rather wild youth, stealing a case of beer! FIVE YEARS! FOR A CASE OF BEER? Is it relevant that he’s a Black man! I should rather imagine so! And he’s told me all about the moral posturing that went on at his trial!

    And, of course, lying largely unaddressed behind the whole “illegal” immigration thing is the fact that on BOTH sides of the border we have outrageously corrupt governments, and, here in California, at least, factory farms and restaurants and janitorial services who would squawk like punctured virgins if their supply of cheap labor were REALLY to dry up! The usual excuse here is that Americans won’t do the work, but I have more than a few friends who, in an economic pinch, went out to the Central Valley looking for work and were told flat out the growers only use illegal labor!

    I’m not trying to confuse the issue, but it does make me wonder what the hell the various governmental jurisdictions can be thinking of to allow on the one hand a free rein to people quite justifiably looking for a better life (while, of course, publicly denying they’re doing any such thing), and on the other hand seemingly to actually be encouraging, or at least giving their blessing to strange and savage men who clearly believe that to kill “the other” (ANY other) is no different from shooting a rabid coyote!

    Has killing someone who differs from you become the latest fashion in penis extenders for small and hapless men who can’t afford an SUV?

    Sorry. Ranting. But like you, I just don’t know where we’re going, and it’s becoming more and more frightening as time passes. . . .

    Yours,

    Keith Drummond

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I don’t know about growers that want to use only illegal labor, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that is true and I can tell you exactly why.

    Stand up and then lean forward so your hands are down by your feet. Keep your legs straight. Now hold that position 8-12 hours a day for a few dollars an hour. 6 days a week.

    If Americans did that job, there would have to be so much expense involved in finding a better, healthier way to pick the crops and THAT is what these mega-farms out here don’t want to do.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread:

    From Austin Texas, Republican “author of a House-passed prohibition on gay foster parents says he feels called by God”.

    The author of the discriminatory ban on gay foster parenting states how the ban originates from biblical interpretation.

    Further proof that even in today’s America, some of us are still not free from theocratic oppression.

  • Mike

    And the bibilical interpretation your post refers to is from the Book of Leviticus which is selectively embraced according to one’s own convenience. It’s the hypocracy of fundamentalist christianity in action once again.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread:

    In Elkins WV, a pastor says that gay and lesbian Christians should be treated like other people, and his congregation gives him the boot for the sheer audacity of the thought.

    News from within Iraq reports how evangelical Christians are luring young Iraqi boys into their faith with cars and money, in much the same way that molesters seduce altar boys. Jesus would be so happy. source

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Further documentation for thread:

    Christian Coalition now advocating that gays and lesbians be visibly marked for identification.

    And still nobody speaks up when they come for us. Sigh.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    The quote referenced in the article you link to does not propose putting warning labels on gays, it merely makes a comparison between gay morbidity and the hazards of smoking cigarettes for which they are labelled.

    Not that I doubt that some Christian Coalition members would like to put labels of some sort on gays, but that’s not what the guy said as quoted in the article.

    I haven’t been following this thread – are all of the alarmist updates you’ve been posting of this same spuriousness?

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Not that I doubt that some Christian Coalition members would like to put labels of some sort on gays, but that’s not what the guy said as quoted in the article.

    Title of article:
    Christian Coalition: Gays Should Wear Warning Labels

    First sentence of article:
    The leader of a conservative Christian lobby group says that gays should be required to wear warning labels.

    Then the second sentence is the quote explaining why the lobby group says we should wear warning labels. Does that help you understand the article better?

    are all of the alarmist updates you’ve been posting of this same spuriousness?

    oh yes, Dave, there’s nothing here for you to worry about, I’m just playing. Go back to demonizing all that you disagree with and flippantly disregarding everything of importance if it doesn’t relate specifically to you. Kinda crude Dave. I suggest you READ the article. It’s pretty clear.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I did read the article, Steve. Despite the fact that the author of the article said what you describe in his first sentence, that sentence is NOT borne out by what the quote it’s based on actually says. You’re correct in reporting the headline, but the obviously sensationalistic author of the article is incorrect in drawing the conclusion he did from the quote which was the genesis of his tirade.

    Dave

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    update for thread:

    The border killings that I predicted on this thread, due to right wing paranoia and the Minutemen aggression back in May, have begun.

    Link is to report of situation on the border escalating to the targeting and killing of migrants with laser scopes.