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Hugo Chavez and the Cult of Personality

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Image and video hosting by TinyPicSome have taken me to task for being too eager to announce Hugo Chavez’ membership in the Junior Dictators Club. After all, he’s just trying to help the people of Venezuela and if he’s taken away free speech, judicial independence, rendered the legislature meaningless, shut down or intimidated the press and turned the schools into indoctrination centers, it’s all been done with the best intentions. He may have complete autocratic power, a growing military and designs on his neighbors, but at least he hasn’t tried to raise himself up like a larger than life figure and create a cult of personality. That’s one of the things which really set dictators like Mussolini, Hitler, Lennin and Mao apart from more reasonable autocrats.

Oh wait, I spoke too soon. Apparently Chavez’ cult of personality is well developed and even extends beyond the borders of Venezuela. We’ve seen some of his posturing and demagoguery here in the US when he’s addressed the UN and made special deals to provide cheap heating oil to the poor of the northeastern states to demonstrate his largesse. He’s a man of big gestures and big words and like Lenin and Stalin and Hitler before him he’s not averse to appearing in the occasional really large poster with a flashy uniform and a raised fist.

Image and video hosting by TinyPicIn a practice unpleasantly reminiscent of what I saw way too much of when I lived in Soviet Russia, Chavez has become disturbingly fond of decorating the walls and roadsides of Venezuela with his giant inflated head, often accompanied by nationalistic slogans. He certainly already has his fanatical followers around the world in whose eyes he can do no wrong, and self-promotion like this is designed to instill that same sort of fanaticism in his country’s population. The goal is to make the people look to him as father, mother and symbol of nationalism, and come to believe that only through his largesse will they be safe and provided for.

Image and video hosting by TinyPicThe promotion of a cult of personality is peculiarly characteristic of the egoism which is at the core of those who believe that they can decide better for others how to live their lives than they can for themselves. It suggests a monumental arrogance and overweening pride, the kind which can promise to rule over a thousand year reich or convert the whole world to a monolithic ideology. It’s either used to cynically manipulate the people, or becomes a symbol of the mental illness which grows from believing your own press releases.

Image and video hosting by TinyPicImage and video hosting by TinyPicIt’s a disease, and there’s no question that Chavez is thoroughly infected. Just look at the accompanying images taken from roadside signs, banners at speeches and walls all over Venezuela. Anyone who likes to see their head in profile 30 feet high has a serious ego problem. His physical presence doesn’t even seem to be adequate for his needs. Whenever he speaks he likes to have a giant banner with his inflated image posing behind him.

Chavez has even begun exporting his cult around the world. Posters of Chavez with arabic slogans have become quite popular in Iran and in Southern Lebanon and other areas controlled by Iranian-backed Hezbollah, whose bizarre mixture of socialism and Islam seems strangely compatible with Chavez’ messianic cult of aboriginal socialism. It’s a tribute to the strange solidarity of socialist autocracy and terrorist zealotry.

Image and video hosting by TinyPicThe middle east isn’t the only place you’ll find giant images of Chavez. Anywhere socialism thrives on the backs of the oppressed people you’ll find his giant inflated head gazing down on you or a picture of him in uniform with his arm around the local despot. Given all that Castro owes Chavez for underwriting his tottering regime, it’s not surprising that the streets of Havana are heavily papered with Chavez posters. And Chavez does have an imposing visage, with much of the same monolithic grandeur which Mussolini presented to his adoring fans.

If all of this isn’t enough, we know that Chavez has truly become larger than life, at least in his own imagination, because in Venezuela they’re selling Hugo Chavez action figures in the street markets, including versions in several different uniforms, with jointed limbs so that he can assume the same dynamically macho poses seen in his posters, raised clenched fist and all. If you’ve got an action figure you really have arrived as a figure of cult-like adoration. Chavez is famous for deriding American pop culture icons like Superman, yet he seems more than eager to join their ranks as an action figure. He claims Venezuela doesn’t need Superman, presumably because they have Chavez to be their superhero instead.

Many would suggest that the need to see yourself depicted as a giant means you are compensating for some personal feeling of inadequacy, but it’s just as likely that the whole drive to become an autocrat originates in some deep personal insecurity. Napoleon was short. Hitler had doubts about his virilit. Mussolini may have been molested as a child. In each case something drove them on to their success over the trampled rights and bodies of others. Chavez clearly shares the personality type. The evidence of it is plastered all over the walls of Caracas and on billboards along the bumpy highways of Venezuela.

The signs are all there. What more will it take for people to admit what Chavez is?

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About Dave Nalle

  • Lapdog

    Wow, it’s been over an hour and Clavos hasn’t found this article yet. He must be somewhere else raving about Fidel and Che.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I only write these articles to try to give Moonraven a reason to keep breathing.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Then you’re off your game, Dave. You should wait until you know she’s going to be online. As it is, we’re all just going to have to wait about 12 more hours for the fireworks.

  • Daniel Brockert

    I agree with your criticisms. I lived in Caracas and my girlfriend had a doll of President Chavez. Of course there are a couple of ways to look at this. On the one hand it is a cult of personality, but on the other hand he has democratic legitimacy because the people keep voting for him and love him. Moreover they don’t only love him because of cult of personality. He’s provided concrete benefits such as subsidized food, free health services and education programs.
    The main question I have is whether the nationalism that drove all the media networks to wave our flag when Bush invaded Iraq is any different from the nationalism you are criticizing in Venezuela. In the US, the tv networks went out of their way to limit criticisms of the war in Iraq and even had retired military generals doing the analysis of the war. Anti-war activists were not invited on the programs.
    It seems to come down to human nature. We are social creatures and we hunger for strong leadership. War in the case of the US and poverty in the case of Venezuela are ways of taking advantage of this instinct.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Moreover they don’t only love him because of cult of personality.

    The cult of personality satisfies the ego of the leader, but it also reminds the people from whom all of the things they have flow. It focuses their nationalism on him and makes them constantly aware that he protects and provides for them. How can they not love him.

    He’s provided concrete benefits such as subsidized food, free health services and education programs.

    Which goes hand in hand with the cult of personality. He feeds the people, he cares for them he even educates them. It all flows from the leader, even if without him they might be able to eat better, buy their own health care and get a more honest education.

    The main question I have is whether the nationalism that drove all the media networks to wave our flag when Bush invaded Iraq is any different from the nationalism you are criticizing in Venezuela.

    I’ve got no problem with Venezuelan nationalism, but we’re seeing a lot more than just flag waving here.

    In the US, the tv networks went out of their way to limit criticisms of the war in Iraq and even had retired military generals doing the analysis of the war. Anti-war activists were not invited on the programs.

    Not true at all, not even on Fox. Anti-war activists have gotten plenty of airtime almost from the very beginning of the war. And if criticism was limited (which it really hasn’t been much), it was voluntary. The government didn’t shut any stations or networks down as has been done in Venezuela.

    It seems to come down to human nature. We are social creatures and we hunger for strong leadership. War in the case of the US and poverty in the case of Venezuela are ways of taking advantage of this instinct.

    It’s better for us all to try to be strong an self reliant than to look for strength from outside ourselves, whether it be from a dictator or god or a self-help book.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Is that Mussolini in the poster at the top of the article, or Dr Evil?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Is there a difference? But yes, it’s Il Duce.

    Dave

  • brian

    Dave and the cult of envy.
    why is dave so envious of Chavez? He seems obsessed by him…a leader who does not bow to daves ideas let alone dictator Bush? Who works to better his countries poor; who is changing the face of a land benighted by ruthless dictators who have ignored the masses who live in squalor in their shanties….the very same masses descended in april 2002 to demand that daves friends,the oligarchs and their media whores return him to office,after they had kidnapped him.
    Hugo as dictator? Well, americans love dictators, so you must love your idea of hugo.

    Note, dave..no journos killed in venezuela,..none in prison.Unlike US govt, which has killed and imprisoned journalists.
    No dictator,no tyranny…just more anti-venezuelaan propaganda spewed by the rightwing.
    The raised fist is an old labor symbol.
    Yes,u speak too soon…indeed,its not your place to decide another countrys politial path at all…
    Your blog says” no personal attacks…what are you doing but violating your own policy!
    The people of venezuela chose Hugo… i suggest you lean to.
    Stalin and hitler? Try Bolivar and Martin Luthur King.

  • troll

    Brian – in your opinion what is the purpose of the larger-than-life images of your leader that the author documents in this piece – ?

  • Lapdog

    The link to Anastasia Moloney’s article gives us: “The messages are clear: power is with the people and they now have a stake in shaping the country’s future.”

    Venezuelans shaping the future of Venezuela?

    Somebody should quickly put a stop to that outrageous idea.

    That’s 100% US oil in the ground down there!

    Down with the evil Chavez!

    Stop the theft of US oil in Venezuela!

  • Plaomudo

    I can’t wait for GWB doll comes out. It would probably be a sex doll where you use it from behind and it blows you away. Design by Osama, made in Texas and sold at Wallmart!

    You Americans couldn’t see a dick tator until unless someone put a mirror in front of you.

  • Martin Lav

    How about the poster of the guy with the huge head that adorns the end of every article he writes?
    Now if that isn’t an fine example of the cult of personality…..and a scary picture to boot!

  • REMF

    ^ But since he lives in a fortified compound, shouldn’t it be the cult of paranoia?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Note, dave..no journos killed in venezuela,..none in prison.

    Except for the four I documented in a previous article.

    Unlike US govt, which has killed and imprisoned journalists.

    Not because of anything they wrote, and none that I know of have been killed.

    No dictator,no tyranny…just more anti-venezuelaan propaganda spewed by the rightwing.

    I’m just documenting some of the developments in Venezuela. We don’t have giant posters of Bush here in the US nor do the elected leaders of most non-dictatorial governments have giant posters of themselves all over their countries.

    The raised fist is an old labor symbol.

    It’s also the symbol of the Italian Fascist movement.

    Yes,u speak too soon…indeed,its not your place to decide another countrys politial path at all…

    I’d like the people of Venezuela to decide, but how can they with no free press, chavista indoctrination in the schools and goons watching how they vote at the polls?

    Your blog says” no personal attacks…what are you doing but violating your own policy!

    Just laying out the facts.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    “I’d like the people of Venezuela to decide, but how can they with no free press, chavista indoctrination in the schools and goons watching how they vote at the polls?”

    They need a free press that supports US foreign policy and US corporations, US style indoctrination in the schools and US sponsored goons watching how they vote at the polls.

    I believe it’s called the Iraq model.

  • Franco

    #15 — Lapdog

    You don’t believe Venezuelans should have a right to a free press?

  • Baronius

    Lapdog, you oppose a free press on the grounds that it should be more free?

    Dave, interesting article.

    Daniel, the retired generals on TV were largely critical of the US approach. They thought we needed more troops, that we were allowing a societal breakdown, and that we should have focused our effort on capturing Saddam. They were hardly supportive.

  • Lapdog

    Don’t you understand English, Franco?

    “They need a free press that supports US foreign policy and US corporations”.

    You have a problem with that?

  • Baronius

    Sorry for posting basically the same thing as Franco. But Lapdog, I really can’t tell what you’re saying. Please spell out you views on a free press without the sarcasm or whatever.

  • Lapdog

    Baronius, you have a beef with the free press in Iraq?

    Isn’t its occasional gripe about the killing of Iraqi civilians by hired US goons good enough for you?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    What I believe our obscure canine partisipant was trying to say is that what we call a ‘free press’ is one which agrees with our agenda.

    But in fact, I’d be perfectly happy with any press which isn’t intimidated by and shut down by the government.

    Dave

  • REMF

    “Your blog says” no personal attacks…what are you doing but violating your own policy!”

    It’s called…hypocrisy

  • Clavos

    “What I believe our obscure canine partisipant was trying to say is that what we call a ‘free press’ is one which agrees with our agenda.”

    So why didn’t he say it??

    Oh, sorry, I forgot. One has to be sarcastic and elliptical in order to be hip and cool.

  • Martin Lav

    “Oh, sorry, I forgot. One has to be sarcastic and elliptical in order to be hip and cool.”

    < <<<<====== as Clavos chuckles to himself all the way to the boat show ====>>>>>>

  • Franco

    #4 — Daniel Brockert

    The main question I have is whether the nationalism that drove all the media networks to wave our flag when Bush invaded Iraq is any different from the nationalism you are criticizing in Venezuela.

    In the US, the tv networks went out of their way to limit criticisms of the war in Iraq and even had retired military generals doing the analysis of the war. Anti-war activists were not invited on the programs.

    At the time that all the media networks were waving our flag, it was how the US TV networks thought of it. Today they don’t and they are reporting just as hard in the opposite direction. The difference between the US media and Venezuela’s media that you miss is, (1) should the Venezuelans think differently later, there is no independent MSM to speak for them. (2) Chavezs’ has closed the independent media. (3) Chavez has signged new laws, by decree, making it a crime to criticize his government.

    To put it another way, put your self in the shoes of the Venezuelans. Lets say you found out that Bush has closed done some MSM that has been highly critila of him and his plan for the US, and he has nationalized some other MSM’s and they are now state owned media And you come to find out he has signed a new law in to effect, by his own decree, this it is now illegal to criticize the Bush government and its plans for the US, and the National Guard, the police and courts have all been sworn in to in force it.

    You loose all perspective on what is really going on because all your feed in the way of media state owned and which pushes only the Bush line. You don’t like it, but your SOL. If you want to resist it, you have to go underground and be careful whom you comrade with as the authorities will have agents out in the field. Have a nice day.

    It has nothing to do with it coming down to human nature in the context you apply it. It’s all about power and control over the minds of a people allowing them no other options. That is called a dictator. That is not Bush, that is Hugo Chavez.

    Do I think Hugo Chavez cares about the Venezulian poor people, yes. Do I think he cares about power, yes. Which one do I think he is the servent of most. Well if your truly serving the majority of the people then you don’t have to go to the control extreems he has, so I would be forced then to say, power.

  • Baronius

    But Dave, if that’s what Lapdog means, then he should be outraged by any press restriction including those in Venezuela. Or does he see the press as an arm of ideology and expects it to serve the powerful? Or, does he want the press to be ideological and serve anti-Americanism?

  • Franco

    #18 —Lapdog

    I thought you were being sarcastic. My apologies for mis-inturp.

  • Lapdog

    What’s with all the chatter about sarcasm?

    I’ll have you champions of press freedom know that I take Mr.Nalle’s opinion pieces as serious as can be.

    Maybe even more seriouser than that.

  • Steve

    In some ways BOTH Chavez and Bush are dictators. Bush has too much power in national policy, and now Chavez has been given too much power. Giving one person a lot of power is idiotic, thats why we need MORE checks and balances in a government to make sure it doesn’t happen. Do you really think that Chavez will step down if he is wrong? How often has Bush admited to being wrong? Hitler was elected by the German people and most supported him through the war. Hitler WAS popular, even among some non-germans. Chavez is giving out a lot of freebies, so of course he is going to be popular. But the government doesn’t create wealth. Other people create the wealth. Unless Chavez has a magic money making machine (OK he does have oil for now) his policies won’t be sustainable. The wealthy and productive are leaving venezuela at a pretty fast rate. Chavez has an inflated ego(as does Bush). All people make poor judgements and lie sometimes. If you give a dictator a free pass, unless they are the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, they will end up exploiting the situation selfishly.

  • Franco

    It is most commonly used at criticizing or personally attacking an argument’s proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument. When the attacker is unable to address the argument itself.

    This type of arument is used by those who can not come into the arena of ideas and debate and win, so they have to try to discredit the person making the claim.

    What is this type of argument called?

    Ad Hominem argument: Translated from Latin to English, “Ad Hominem” means “argument against the man” or “argument against the person.”

    An ad hominem argument, “argument to the person”, “argument against the man”) consists of replying to an argument or claim by attacking a peron making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument and producing evidence against the claim.

    Whenever you see personal attacks and abusive ad hominem arguments being used in a discussion, (1)it is unlikely that anything productive will come out of it in the end. (2) A person who can only make their case by attacking others doesn’t have much of case to begin with.

    Classic examples of Ad Hominem

    #12 — Martin Lav
    How about the poster of the guy with the huge head that adorns the end of every article he writes?

    Now if that isn’t an fine example of the cult of personality…..and a scary picture to boot!

    #13 — REMF
    But since he lives in a fortified compound, shouldn’t it be the cult of paranoia?

    #22 — REMF
    Your blog says” no personal attacks…what are you doing but violating your own policy!”

    It’s called…hypocrisy

  • REMF

    Here’s another one:

    Franco, when are you going to stop brown-nosing Nalle?

  • Franco

    #29 — October 19, 2007 @ 19:54PM — Steve

    In some ways BOTH Chavez and Bush are dictators. Bush has too much power in national policy

    Giving one person a lot of power is idiotic, thats why we need MORE checks and balances in a government to make sure it doesn’t happen.

    IMO, Bush can not be faulted as a Dictator because he knows how to use the power he has while he finishes out his term and steps down.

    As for more checks and balances, we have them and always have. Just because the House and Senate, can’t perform (whether by choose or by lack of intelligence) in using their power (or mis-using it as we have just seen) dose not make Bush a dictater either. It makes the leaders in both houses failures.

    It is really a remarkable thing given the tremendous onslaught of attacks heaped on to Bush and his policies, yet he still remains rock solid and focused on what he believes in right for our nation. From within this context, whether you like his direction or not is immaterial, as he shown himself to be a rock and he rolls, while both the House and Senete pick fuzz out of their navel.

  • Franco

    #31 — REMF

    Franco, when are you going to stop brown-nosing Nalle?

    When you can enter into the arena of ideas and debate the topic without (ad hominem arguments) and convince me he is wrong.

  • Lapdog

    Franco, so you figure Bush is a no-fault Dictator, do you.

    He calls himself the Decider…or was that Deciderer.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Good illustrations of the worthless ad hominem technique favored by those who can’t frame a real argument. I think it’s particularly telling that in the two examples you cite they can’t even get the facts straight. Martin Lav thinks my one-inch high picture is a giant poster – clear signs of a serious perceptual disorder. REMF for some reason thinks that BC is my ‘blog’ and that I set the rules here.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    I’ve gotta say, Dave, I miss the old picture. It looked just like the guy who played Drew Carey’s brother.

  • Steve

    “IMO, Bush can not be faulted as a Dictator because he knows how to use the power he has while he finishes out his term and steps down.”

    Sure, he is’nt a total dictator, but there are degrees to everything. He has allowed torture laws to slip, used more government surveillance against US citizens, guantanomo bay etc. A dictator isn’t all or nothing, plus people have different opinions on the definition of a dictator (moonraven for instance). But I do think too much power tends to corrupt.

  • moonraven

    Just a couple of comments, as this bird is busy and this drivel by Nalle deserves almost no response from anyone, especially since every single point he makes is completely bogus.

    My comments are these:

    Nalle proves nothing. Whether or not there is a cult of personality is not provable, even.

    The pic of Mussolini looks WAAAAY too much like the pic of Ugly Dave Nalle. Mussolini probably had better pics. Nalle probably doesn’t.

    This piece as another poster pointed out is all about NALLE–not about Chavez. Nalle is not the only shitkicker US rube who is so envious of Chavez and what he has done for Venezuela because Nalle’s Decider (Bullshitter) has only put the US in the toilet, in insurmountable debt and has made the US the rogue state par excellence on the planet Earth.

    Meanwhile Chavez has built a bloc against the US that is taking on the shape and structure and solidity of a chinese puzzle.

    Not to mention that he controls what YOU rubes pay for oil which has not hit 90 bucks a barrel. He has indicated that beginning of 2008 will have it at 100 bucks a barrel.

    Chavez controls OPEC. You want to keep driving your car: PAY CHAVEZ’ price. There is no alternative.

    Nalle has never been to Venezuela, believes in fact that it is a country in get this Central America, has never had any contact with Chavez and the only contact he has had with someone who HAS HAD PERSONAL CONTACT with CHavez and spends time in Venezuela is his juvenile responses to THIS POSTER. They hardly count.

    In short, this is just another half-witted, half-cocked [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] hate piece from [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Dave.

    I am sure that what you write has as much interest for Chavez as a dust mote blowing across the desert in Saudi Arabia.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • moonraven

    As a parting comment, since Nalle has raised the question of what causes folks to become autocrats, perhaps some of you who have more interest than this bird might want to consider what caused Nalle to dedicate his life to becoming the Autocrat of Blogcritics….

    Maybe he was molested as a child? That happens a lot in hillbilly familes.

    This bird always breathes healthily and deeply with no assistance from Nalle. And I will continue to do so long after Nalle is dead from asbestos poisoning.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Moonraven, I just take my cue from H. L. Mencken and seek to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.

    In this case the ‘comfortable’ would be the self-righteous, fatuous, international leftists who will turn a blind eye to any abuse of human rights so long as it’s carried out for the right ideological reasons. The afflicted, of course, being the people of the world who just want to be free and be given a chance to live a decent life.

    So MR, the more these articles cause you to display what you really are, the more likely I am to keep writing them.

    Dave

  • alessandro

    Dave, you wouldn’t be a masochist by any chance?

    I like #30 very much. Way to go on that Franco. Personal attacks are not only boring they lack integrity or intellectual vision. It takes quite a person to stand above that and quite another (especially those who hide behind pseudonyms) to fall prey to it.

    If people would just channel their positions better and stay clear of the name-calling they would get their message across better and who knows, sway some people to see their side?

  • moonraven

    What I really am, of course, is an expert on Latin America.

    Thanks for your promotional efforts of my lecture circuit, but I really don’t need rubes like you on the bandwagon when people with credibility and a basic working knowloedge of geography are already there.

    I will always be right.

    You will, by definition, always be wrong.

    Just the way life goes, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    Better luck next lifetime.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And MR, I’m an expert on autocracy and its history. Chavez falls into both of our domains of interest, but only one of us is looking at him with any kind of objectivity. Your ‘expertise’ is as an advocate. Mine is as a historian. Huge difference.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    alessandro:

    There has never been any sort of civilized discussion and debate on this site since I first visited in Sept. 21, 2006.

    There has only been a climate of misogyny, racism, redneckism, insults, ad hominem attacks and outright lies.

    That is the form and function of this RIGHTWING propaganda site.

    Period.

  • moonraven

    Nalle, you have hit a new low watermark of fatuosity!

    You are not a historian.

    You are not an expert on anything.

    You could not possibly look at Chavez objectivity when you don’t even know which continent his country is on. Quick geography lesson: SOUTH America.

    Just stop trying to shit us.

    Even the real dummies on this site are not stupid enough to believe your self-aggrandizing fantasies.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Clavos

    “There has only been a climate of misogyny, racism, redneckism, insults, ad hominem attacks and outright lies.”

    Pot.

    Kettle.

    Black.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    There has never been any sort of civilized discussion and debate on this site since I first visited in Sept. 21, 2006.

    Hmmm. There was civilized discussion before then. And there has been during brief gaps since then. I wonder, what do those gaps coincide with…

    You are not a historian.

    You are not an expert on anything.

    Unlike you I’ve been able to provide links to evidence of my academic background. Lies so easily disproven just make you look foolish.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] There was no climate of civilized debate when I first visited this site.

    JOM started the ball rolling right off the bat with insults, misogynist comments and racist ad hominems against me. Go back and revisit the thread and it is as clear as sunlight exactly what happens when anyone comes to this site–especially a female–and contributes information instead of lies, fantasies and propaganda.

    Nalle: Sorry, pal. Teaching a course at a shitkicker community college does not make you a Historian. Do not make me laugh. That’s about as much of an academic background as my cat can muster.

    You have never provided even one piece of factual evidence for any of the fatuous claims you have made on this site.

    Not one.

    Venezuela is in SOUTH America–not Central America. Any HISTORIAN would have known that. That historian would have known that Central America was only ONE country until independence from Spain.

    A historian would have known that the HISTORY of the independence wars in the northern two thirds of SOUTH America is the HISTORY of Simon Bolivar–a VENEZUELAN.

    I do not even claim to be a HISTORIAN, but I knew all of that HISTORY since elementary school!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • brian

    The larger than life images? Like those on mt Rushmore? Youer question is did hugo create them? one someone else?
    But why this obsession with Hugo Chavez? Is it because he is leading his people to a better life thanm they ever had under us backed leaders? Can it be Dave hates democracy in venezuela, and needs to vilify its leader? Thats how i read daves scream.
    Chave is democraticaly elected…so no dictator…but amerians lie dabve hate the idea of a leader and party who dont do as washington says, so they have to vilify him .
    =================================
    no jounos killed in Venezuela…and i dont see your 4…why not name them and say who killed them, Dave,.

    Dave wrote:
    ‘Not because of anything they wrote, and none that I know of have been killed.’

    there is a journalist rottnig in Guantanamo bay gulag…and US killed journalists in iraq..for what they were writing…The palestine hotel and US attack on al-jazeera. Dave needs to read a little bit more.
    ===========================
    ‘I’d like the people of Venezuela to decide, but how can they with no free press, chavista indoctrination in the schools and goons watching how they vote at the polls?’

    they did in several elections….No free press? Here you are right….the press in venezuela is controlled by the oligarchs…as we learned in the doco : The Reviolution will not be Televised…..The same free press ensured it was not telkevised….
    The very same press that is still free was free to lie to the people in april 2002…had it doe what it did in USA, dont you think they all be in guantanamo ? Realkity check dave….a coup d’etat is illegal even in the US.

  • brian

    dave said:
    ‘And MR, I’m an expert on autocracy and its history’

    thats laughable? Your post shows you an expert in lies and vilification….nothing of what you wrote is remotely true,but shows your race hatred of leader who is neither white nor acpitalist…nor roles over for your real autocratic government…

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    #14: “We don’t have giant posters of Bush here in the U.S. …”

    In our federal district courthouse we DO have large, framed photos of both Bush and Cheney in the lobby. We can’t be the only ones so graced!

  • Clavos

    Is there any place in the US where the entire side of a multistory building is covered with a portrait of Bush?

    Are there photos of Bush on light poles on every corner in Washington, DC?

    Mount Rushmore is a tribute to DEAD presidents.

  • REMF

    “REMF for some reason thinks that BC is my ‘blog’ and that I set the rules here.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Wrong, Nalle. I’ve never thought that. I do, however, view you as a manipulating control-freak, a bully/wimp, and a phony.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lee, all of the courthouses have the standard 2.5×3 portraits of the president and vice president and had similar ones of clinton and gore during the last administration. That’s a far cry from a 24ft tall poster on a city street or by a highway.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    There are no 24 foot high posters of George Bush because NOBODY–except a few retrograde rednecks like Nalle and clavos–LIKES THE GUY.

    Bush is not a larger than life Latin American leader (a direct quote from the IRISH film crew in film Brian referenced, THe Revolution Will Not Be Televised), but a puny little retarded guy who had to stuff his flight suit with sweat socks to look like he had a cock.

    Why would ANYONE make a 24 foot poster of a guy with nothing in his pants and the retarded person’s fixation on compensation?

    There are big posters of Chavez, and Chavez dolls and Chavez cds of him singing Mexican rancheras and Venezuelan llaneras, and Chavez tee shirts and fistfuls of Chavez biographies on amazon.com because FOLKS LOVE HIM.

    He is a man with enormous charisma, a heart the size of the Amazon Basin, a sense of humor to match, and is a successful leader of a country.
    His IQ is at least double that of George W’s–and he knows how to use it for the benfit of his people–not against them.

    He is, as well, The Roadrunner to Bush’s Wile E. Coyote.

    The creator of Wile E., my friend the now-departed Chuck Jones said: Wile E. (read George W.) is the perfect example of a fanatic–a person who redoubles his efforts when he has forgotten his aim.

    Chavez unseated Eric Clapton as G-O-D several years ago.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • moonraven

    By the way, REMF, as always, is bang on.

    A veritable master of the Haiku Method of Counting Coup.

    Keep up the great work!

  • moonraven

    Make that The Zen of Counting Coup.

    There’s a book in that title.

    Probably even a best-seller.

    Go for it!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The larger than life images? Like those on mt Rushmore?

    The newest of those being of a president 70 years dead? Yeah, that’s going to generate a lot of fanatical support.

    Youer question is did hugo create them? one someone else?

    I assume Hugo is not the artist, but he certainly commissioned them.

    But why this obsession with Hugo Chavez? Is it because he is leading his people to a better life thanm they ever had under us backed leaders?

    No, it’s because he’s leading them into slavery and oppression.

    Can it be Dave hates democracy in venezuela, and needs to vilify its leader? Thats how i read daves scream.

    Democracy is dead in Venezuela. Chavez killed it when he rewrote the constitution and he’ll bury it when he does away with elections as he is about to do.

    Chave is democraticaly elected…so no dictator

    Hitler was democratically elected.

    …but amerians lie dabve hate the idea of a leader and party who dont do as washington says, so they have to vilify him .

    No, we hate the idea of a leader who systematically takes away the rights and property of his people.

    no jounos killed in Venezuela…and i dont see your 4…why not name them and say who killed them, Dave,.

    I didn’t say they were killed. I said they were imprisoned. However, there were also journalists killed in Venezuela. Chavista thugs killed Jesús Flores Rojas in the town of El Tigre, Jorge Aguirre of Cadena Carriles, and Pedro Bastardo in Cumaná. Those are just in the last year.

    As for imprisonments, most of the imprisoned journalists who were jailed in the last few years have now been freed and have fled the country. Those who remain behind are subject to constant harassment and intimidation and have been silenced.

    You might want to visit Reporters Without Borders sometime. It’s a leftist organization, but they are at least honest.

    there is a journalist rottnig in Guantanamo bay gulag

    Hey, don’t look for me to defend GITMO. I’ve written against it several times. There were originally 3 journalists being held there. Two were released in 2005 after hearings. The one who remains seems to have some clear ties to terrorist organizations, but he certainly deserves a hearing.

    …and US killed journalists in iraq..for what they were writing…The palestine hotel and US attack on al-jazeera. Dave needs to read a little bit more.

    Those deaths were accidental. No credible evidence that journalists have been targeted has ever been presented.

    they did in several elections….No free press? Here you are right….the press in venezuela is controlled by the oligarchs

    What oligarchs? The only authority in Venezuela is Chavez.

    …as we learned in the doco : The Reviolution will not be Televised…..The same free press ensured it was not telkevised….
    The very same press that is still free was free to lie to the people in april 2002…

    Opposing Chavez doesn’t make them actual liars, it just gets them silenced for trying to warn the people of the coming oppression. As events have since proven they were right about Chavez.

    had it doe what it did in USA, dont you think they all be in guantanamo ?

    Of course they wouldn’t. Journalists in the US say worse things on a daily basis about our government and no one even bats an eye.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Brian: “Chave is democraticaly elected…so no dictator.”

    Nalle: “Hitler was democratically elected.”

    Bush was democratically elected.

    Brian: “no jounos killed in Venezuela…and i dont see your 4…why not name them and say who killed them,”

    Nalle: “Chavista thugs killed Jesús Flores Rojas in the town of El Tigre, Jorge Aguirre of Cadena Carriles, and Pedro Bastardo in Cumaná. Those are just in the last year.

    No substantial evidence has ever been presented that those journalists were targeted.

    Nalle: “Journalists in the US say worse things on a daily basis about our government and no one even bats an eye.”

    A question for our dear readers:
    What’s the worst thing you’ve ever heard said about Bush from an ABC, NBC, CBS or Fox journalist?

  • Lumpy

    Brian, Moonraven and now their little Lapdog, unable to assail any of the facts in this article resort (as usual) to ad hominem’s, misdirection and personal attaaks. They ignore the message and attack the messenger and if that doesn’t work try an invidious attack on his country. Nice ‘n sleazy. But are they really fooling anyone?

  • Lapdog

    Here’s a kleenex Lumpy go dry your eyes.

    You fooled yourself into attacking the messengers and ignoring the message.

  • brian

    ‘I assume Hugo is not the artist, but he certainly commissioned them.’

    Dave, again you make claims that are not verified….lets see you both verify that hugo commissioned the portraits AND that this shows he has a giant ego….so far youve not done that.What you have shown is an unhealthy obsession with demonising Hugo…i suggest you turn yourself in for a checkup.
    ======================

    ‘Nalle: “Hitler was democratically elected.”

    Bush was democratically elected.’

    ergo, Bush is a dictator….your reasoning has democratic elections as a prelude to dictatorship…or is it the natuire opf political office to give the leader power to lead?
    Youve still not proven Chavez is a dictator….all youve done is made libellous claims!
    ================
    ‘Nalle: “Chavista thugs killed Jesús Flores Rojas in the town of El Tigre, Jorge Aguirre of Cadena Carriles, and Pedro Bastardo in Cumaná. Those are just in the last year.’

    1. no evidence it was done by a chavista…AND how can you blame that on Chavez….nice sleight of hand, Dave…you keep showing your unhgealthy obsession with Chavez…
    You show me where Chavez says:’ Go out and kill o and so’….
    =======================
    Dave: It’s because he’s leading them into slavery and oppression.’

    !!!!!!!!!!!again, thats your paranoid take on the bolivarian revolution…but then given the unhealthy state of the us media, its no surprise you believe this sort of rubbish….

    =========================
    Dave:
    ‘Democracy is dead in Venezuela. Chavez killed it when he rewrote the constitution and he’ll bury it when he does away with elections as he is about to do.’

    Thats your wishful thinking…al elections monitored by international observers show free and fair elections…in comparison, intervational observers were prevented from monitoring US pooling booths.

    Dave: ‘I didn’t say they were killed. I said they were imprisoned. However, there were also journalists killed in Venezuela. Chavista thugs killed Jesús Flores Rojas in the town of El Tigre, Jorge Aguirre of Cadena Carriles, and Pedro Bastardo in Cumaná. Those are just in the last year.’

    Brian:’ first what evidence have you they were killed by ‘chavistas’? and how can you claims this is the fault of Chavez? No court of law would take that as proof.

    Dave: ‘As for imprisonments, most of the imprisoned journalists who were jailed in the last few years have now been freed and have fled the country. Those who remain behind are subject to constant harassment and intimidation and have been silenced.’

    You muts be rerferring to journalists who took part in the 2002 coup, as reported in The Revolution will Not be Televised….
    Had they done that in the US, theyd be in jail and on death row.

    Dave: ‘You might want to visit Reporters Without Borders sometime. It’s a leftist organization, but they are at least honest.’

    Youre joking dave….but once more you need a reality check! Reports without Borders…is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy(sic)..that ius by the US govt! Its as far from being left wing as you are…

    ‘Finally the truth has come to light. Mr. Robert Ménard, secretary general of the RSF for twenty years, has confessed to receiving financing from the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), an organization that depends on the U.S. Department of State, whose principal role is to promote the agenda of the White House for the entire world. Ménard was indeed very clear. “We indeed receive money from the NED. And that hasn’t posed any problem.” (1)’
    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7851

    there is a journalist rottnig in Guantanamo bay gulag

    Dave: ‘Hey, don’t look for me to defend GITMO. I’ve written against it several times. There were originally 3 journalists being held there. Two were released in 2005 after hearings. The one who remains seems to have some clear ties to terrorist organizations, but he certainly deserves a hearing.’

    Noone in Guyantanamo has ties to terrorist organisations…they may have ties to resistance organisations in their own invaded countries…

    …and US killed journalists in iraq..for what they were writing…The palestine hotel and US attack on al-jazeera. Dave needs to read a little bit more.

    Dave:’Those deaths were accidental. No credible evidence that journalists have been targeted has ever been presented.’

    Accidental? Thats not what the survivors say…only the US miliary says that: ‘they got in the way of our tanks fire….sorry.’

    Dave: ‘What oligarchs? The only authority in Venezuela is Chavez.’

    The ex-power elite….which most of the venezuelan media belong to…try to bone up on modern venezuelan history, Dave.

    …as we learned in the doco : The Reviolution will not be Televised…..The same free press ensured it was not telkevised….
    The very same press that is still free was free to lie to the people in april 2002…

    DAVE': Opposing Chavez doesn’t make them actual liars, it just gets them silenced for trying to warn the people of the coming oppression. As events have since proven they were right about Chavez.

    It helps if like you they are liars…..otherwise they be forced to tell the truth..that Chavez is the best leader veneuela has ever had…thats why he keeps getting relected in international monitored elections.

    dave

    =====================

  • moonraven

    I think that there is something sexual behind the paranoid obsession Dave has regarding Chavez.

    Dave knows nothing about Venezuela. Not even what continent it is located on, yet he has singled out this non-white big charismatic guy to write libelous statements about.

    I think he has the hots for Chavez.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    He doesn’t have the slightest care about oppression and slavery. Dave is a patriot: he defends as the best possible country and the best possible system the US of Assholes–a nation founded on the twin pilings of genocide and slavery.

    He protests too much. And about a country and a leader than he knows absolutely nothing about. Yet all around him his own country is going down the drain into the abyss.

    Something is very wrong with Dave. That is not a personal attack. It is a diagnosis.

    Apart from that, he is doomed to unrequited passion, as I am quite sure that Chavez is even less interested in relieving the sexual frustrations of Dave Nalle than he is in relieving the sexual frustrations of Condolences Rice.

  • moonraven

    I would like to see someone on this site start crying wolf in regard to his OWN country.

    The oligarchs in Venezuela have been crying wolf that Chavez is becoming a dictator since before he was even elected in 1998.

    And although if anyone deserves to live under a dictatorship it is those mean-spirited sods, that dictatorship has yet to materialize.

    Maybe because it materialized in the US.

    Like the infamous chupacabras materialized in Mexico to distract folks from Fobaproa…

  • brian

    You may have hit upon it moonraven….was dave spurned by Chavez????is that why hes now attacking him as a dictator and cult maker???

    ==============================
    ‘The oligarchs in Venezuela have been crying wolf that Chavez is becoming a dictator since before he was even elected in 1998.’

    during the april 2002 coup, these same oligarchs put a real dicator…dictator-for-a-day Carmona into power, where he did what all claim chavez is doing!

  • nejode

    I can see none of you guys live in Venezuela… it’s easy to be “chavista” living somewhere else and just comming down to get some money from our Führer, just as Danny Glover did… inflated the leader’s ego a litlle bit more and got his 15 million socialist bucks!

    For us who do live and try to survive here, us who have kids in public schools (true
    “revolutionaries” wouldn’t even think of sending their children to a “Escuela Bolivariana”) that are brainwashed every day, those of us who have relatives who had to leave the country because they were beaten almost to death by the “circulos Bolivarianos” while the Guardia Nacional and the police laugh, we “traitors” to the ideas of “our beloved leader” who cannot find milk, eggs, or sugar in the supermarkets, us who see every day how the new “socialist” leaders grow filthy rich on our money, we the ignorant souls who do not understand why the regime has to control all the communicational media (Goebbels would have loved this country!)… well, we see things different.

    I almost cry when I see this “little Fidel” give away millions of $$$ to Bolivia, Nicaragua, Argentina, Ecuador, Iran, Lebanon, while street kids are begging for food, millions of people are living in cardboard houses with no public services, schools are falling to pieces and all your friends and relatives have been victims in one way or another of a theft, killing or rape.

    You people don’t live in a country where the previous president of Consejo Nacional Electoral (National Electoral Council), the same guy who was responsible for coordinating all those very “democratic” elections, was given the prize of being named vice-president for his contributions to the revolution!!! … very impartial elections indeed!!! Like the presidential revocatory elections where a few days before, Jimmy Carter and Communicational multi-millionaire Gustavo Cisneros, in a mysterious reunion in Fuerte Tiuna, sold their souls to Hugo Chávez and validated the coming electoral fraud.

    Really, reading the comments I can see how the $$$-international-$$$-mediatic-$$$-brainwash-$$$ works in all levels, especially in Bush-hating anglos… wake up world! this “democratically elected dictator” is going to ruin this country and shed hate all over the continent …

  • troll

    moonraven – the fact that the US is a murderous fascist cesspool wouldn’t make a Chavista slide into dictatorship (were this in fact to occur) any more palatable

    …anybody (Brian) know the pre-Chavez history of the use of these grand images in Venezuela – ?

  • Lapdog

    “street kids are begging for food, millions of people are living in cardboard houses with no public services, schools are falling to pieces and all your friends and relatives have been victims in one way or another of a theft, killing or rape.”

    nejode longs for the old Venezuela before Chavez was elected when there were thousands more hungry street kids, three times as many people living in cardboard shacks with no public services, twice as many schools falling to pieces and everyone had friends, relatives, neighbors and aquaintences who were directly or indirectly victims of theft, killing and rape.

    Ah yes, the good old days of benevolent capitalism.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    If I hear one more time about food shortages–when I saw more food in Caracas for less money than I have ever even dreamed of seeing in Mexico, I will personally bite the ass of the liar who posts that now very old chestnut.

    And when I read another post by a Native speaker of English calling himself a venezolono, ditto.

    I don’t have to spend my entire life in Venezuela to see what goes on–I go there and spend time frequently enough that changes from stay to stay are obvious. And they are ALL positive.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    You don’t like Chavez, you don’t like Venezuela? Stay the fuck away from there. That will involve zero change in any of your behavior. Me? I will take every cheap flight to Caracas that comes up. Venezuela is a beautiful country and its president is a beautiful man. Period.

  • moonraven

    troll,

    Wall art is a Latin American tradition.

    All over my part of the world you will find big murals and big representations of Latin American heroes.

    That part of the world includes the large communities of La Raza in the US.

    Nothing new with Chavez.

    White folks don’t paint their houses fuschia, don’t make murals on walls, don’t have street life with wonderful food vendors because having a soul is against the law.

    Go figure.

    I just go. Even here in Santa Fe things are waaay too sterile and waaay too dull. Gotta keep it clean for the tourists.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    My job here is so easy. All I have to do is counter MR’s pathological lying.

    First off, My great aunt Lucy had a fuschia house.

    More importantly, I tacked Nejode’s IP address and unlike others here who have admitted to being Venezuelans in exile he is in fact posting from inside Venezuela using their cable TV service for internet access.

    And if you don’t believe me, ask another editor to track the IP address. Obviously I’m not going to post the address publicly because that would give MR and her stormtroopers an opportunity to rat him out to the Chavista goons.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    It’s good you checked his IP address; it confirms his message, which has an obvious and clear ring of truth and direct observation/experience to it.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Not that it will do anything to keep MR and her goon squad from trying to silence him because any truth out of Venezuela is threatening to their desire to spread socialist revolution around the region and the world.

    The truth is their most deadly enemy.

    Dave

  • REMF

    “It’s good you checked his IP address; it confirms his message, which has an obvious and clear ring of truth and direct observation/experience to it.”
    – Clavos

    I stand corrected, I thought he sounded more like Vox Populi.

  • Lapdog

    I don’t know why Nalle and Clavos don’t head down to Venezuela to help oust Chavez.

    They’re chomping at the bit to see some righteous US intervention down there but they don’t have the cojones to go get some peasant blood on their hands.

    I’d suggest they join some privatized death squad but I doubt any of those outfits need two guys in pajamas who type a lot.

  • moonraven

    Well, let’s not be too hasty.

    Nalle could send them the pic of him in the oversized cowboy hat and swear that he was in The Magnificent Seven.

  • Lapdog

    With Clavos in the background dressed up as pirate.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lapdog. I challenge you to find ONE instance ANYWHERE where I’ve endorsed a US intervention in Venezuela. I am and will remain absolutely opposed to such a military campaign. Yes, I’d like to see democracy, capitalism and freedom restored there, but it should be pursued diplomatically not through military action, at least not until the inevitable day when Chavez starts to invade his neighbors to plunder them to fill the needs of an economy he will have bankrupted.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    I accept your challenge and when I’ve nothing better to do I will occasionally visit the archives to read your comments. I can tell you right now that 99.9% of the time I will have something better to do.

    Could you spell out exactly why Venezuelan democracy, capitalism, freedom, and Chavez invading his neighbours would ever be any of your business?

    I’m intrigued with your reference to freedom.

    If Chavez stripped his opponents of their wealth and livlihoods, and dumped them and their families onto reservations like those in the US, would that qualify as freedom?

    In other words shouldn’t you be arguing about freedom for the oppressed in the USA?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lap, if you actually do take the time to read some of my archives articles you’ll find that I’ve devoted a lot of time to the issues of the oppressed in America, though Native Americans don’t concern me disproportionately. I’m more concerned about the ways in which all citizens are oppressed regardless of race, religion or background.

    As for why Chavez’ behavior is my business, it’s because I have as much right as anyone else to be concerned when I see fellow men being deprived of rights and forced into a subjugated status. If Chavez is allowed to oppress his people and his neighbors unopposed, what is to stop that trend from spreading and eventually coming here?

    What troubles me is that you are NOT more concerned.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Right.

    Dave Nalle: The Knight in Shining Armor out there defending the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden who have been stripped of their rights.

    But Native Americans do not concern him overly.

    Not the 90 million eliminated in genocide. Not the ones now who are poor, downtrodden, oppressed and who have been stripped of their rights and resources. [Deleted]

  • brian

    lumpy
    there is no article to assail, and there are no facts in it….its a screed by an antivenezuelan who is trying desperately to smear president Hugo chavez, the most democratically elected leader in history.

  • brian

    nejode:I almost cry when I see this “little Fidel” give away millions of $$$ to Bolivia, Nicaragua, Argentina, Ecuador, Iran, Lebanon, while street kids are begging for food, millions of people are living in cardboard houses with no public services, schools are falling to pieces and all your friends and relatives have been victims in one way or another of a theft, killing or rape’
    \\\\\\
    Except that stret kids are no longer going beggin in Venezuela as they did before he arrived…its the poor who keep electing Chavez to the presidency…
    youd prefer the money was siphoned off by oil companies to enrich the US and the white venezuelan elites.
    You keep showing how much you despise the poor.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘My job here is so easy. All I have to do is counter MR’s pathological lying.

    First off, My great aunt Lucy had a fuschia house.

    More importantly, I tacked Nejode’s IP address and unlike others here who have admitted to being Venezuelans in exile he is in fact posting from inside Venezuela using their cable TV service for internet access.
    ================================

    Well, that explains Nejodes hatred and lies against president Chavez. He and his kind were so used to being in power and brutalising the poor darker venezuelans whom they are wel known to despise, that now he suffers a withdrawal syndrome.

  • moonraven

    The escualidos and wannabe escualidos in Venezuela are the meanest, cheapest, most racist and most conflictive sons of bitches (hijos de la chingada is the Mexican form) I have ever seen.

    So scared that someone with a brown skin who is not from a family of privilege MIGHT actually receive a living wage, get an education, buy a car that they shit their pants when they see a red shirt.o

    A firing squad is much too good for them.

  • moonraven

    Brian:

    It’s more like a mass psychosis that infects those folks.

    They believed their own racist propaganda–that a person of mixed race such as Chavez could not keep winning elections–so that when he won, won again, won yet again, and won for the 4th time with an even greater percentage of the votes their reaction was unmitigated shock–and they screamed fraud.

    If they were not such mean people I would actually feel sorry for the poor misguided bastards–as I would feel compassion for other psychotics.

    But in their case, no. I have seen their ugly faces and seen their infantile homicidal behavior, and I just cannot go there.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Lapdog. I challenge you to find ONE instance ANYWHERE where I’ve endorsed a US intervention in Venezuela. I am and will remain absolutely opposed to such a military campaign. Yes, I’d like to see democracy, capitalism and freedom restored there, but it should be pursued diplomatically not through military action, at least not until the inevitable day when Chavez starts to invade his neighbors to plunder them to fill the needs of an economy he will have bankrupted.’
    ========================

    But youd live to see Chavez removed….right dave?
    Capitalism and freedom? Why yoke those two words? Theres more freedom in venezuela than in the US, where under Bush, its being rolled back in the interests of ‘security’. plundering is a feature of capitalism…as we see every day. Democracy is what you need to see reetored in USA…as witness the vote frgaud in 2000 and 2004
    http://www.votefraud.org/
    Meanwhile elections \have been certified free and fair by the Carter Center and other observers…the Venezuelan elite (people like Nejode) so hated that judgement that they actually attacked Carter!

    By ‘diplomaticaly, you mean the US should intervene diplomatically to change the government….thats called an intervention in national sovereignty and is a widely regarded intenational crime…the US uses NED to try to intefere in elections….imagine if Venezuela paid money to political groups in the US to overturn the US system! Youd be hopping mad.

    Finally:when Chavez starts to invade his neighbors to plunder them to fill the needs of an economy he will have bankrupted.’

    This is so laughable absurd it could only have come from the head of desperate pirate capitalist!
    You mean the way the US has invaded country after country? Really dave…Nowe you are wishfully thinking that if Chavez did what the US always does, that would be q chance to have him removed!
    Just knew you hated democracy…

  • brian

    Dave:’As for why Chavez’ behavior is my business, it’s because I have as much right as anyone else to be concerned when I see fellow men being deprived of rights and forced into a subjugated status. If Chavez is allowed to oppress his people and his neighbors unopposed, what is to stop that trend from spreading and eventually coming here?’
    ==============================
    This is the latest trend in capitalism…careing for their neighbours….thats because it looks better on ones CV than overthrowing ones neighbours….
    Dave, you may fool other pirate capitalists and you may foo, yourself, but you wont fool the venezuelan people, who know the hated US is the enemy of freedom and democracy everywhere…witness what theyve done in Iraq! You cant be concerned about capitalism…that is rights of pirate corporations AND the people…they are two different things….
    You keep lying that Chavez is oppressing his people. When he’s the most popular president in venezulan history. Thats why he gets elected with figuers your wretched presidental liars can only dream of, and who are oppessing their own people under the wretched ant-terror laws…

    That last statement is right out of Condi Rices play book…thats the reason the US gave to inavde iraq and kill > 1 million people…if we dont fight them there, we will be fighting them here.
    Back of that sentiment is your wish for US to invade Venezuela, or at least to aid the old power elite to wage civil war….
    The US is the enemy of freedom and democracy, and you and your lies keep proving it.

  • brian

    Yes moonraven, its well nown to observers of the scene in veneuzuela that the white elite is rabidly racist.

    Meanwhile:
    ‘Surveys show that almost two-thirds of the adult population is behind the president. His government gets high marks for advances in education (69.4 percent), housing (65.3 percent) and health care (65.2 percent). A Chilean survey last year showed that Venezuelans are first among Latin Americans in viewing their country as “totally democratic.” ‘

    Tell that to Dave! They dont need liars like dave to defend their democratic rights…not while theyve got Chavez.

  • brian

    dave:’As for why Chavez’ behavior is my business, it’s because I have as much right as anyone else to be concerned when I see fellow men being deprived of rights and forced into a subjugated status’

    hate to repeat it, but this statement still looks very strange!There is no oppresssion going on in venezula these days..but there is a concerted effort by the old power elite to destroy chavez and his government….imagine if the Democrats in US behaved like they the white V elite…
    So why do you keep lying?

  • moonraven

    Brian:

    The Venezuelan people don’t need a fat, bald, ugly gringo bigot. Period.

    Neither do we.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • troll

    moonraven – capital punishment was banned in Venezuela in 1863…is the firing squad to be brought back under the coming ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ there – ?

    your and Brian’s anger based ‘us and them’ mentality – as justified by the history of capitalist ‘excess’ as it might be – is reactionary goo

  • Clavos

    “won for the 4th time with an even greater percentage of the votes”

    Even 100% (which he did not get) of the votes cast by only 25% of the registered voters is still only 1 in 4 of Venezuelan voters supporting him.

    Pretty small group from which to be claiming mandates and legitimacy.

  • Clavos

    “Thats why he gets elected with figuers your wretched presidental liars can only dream of”

    Indeed.

    See link in #93, above.

  • BRIAN

    Trolls live under bridges and eat people…a fitting image for a capitalist.

  • Clavos

    There it is.

    The ad hominem attack, because you can’t refute troll with logic and facts.

  • troll

    foolish child – I see a long career sharpening guillotines in your future

  • Silver Surfer

    Where can I get a Chavez action figure? Does Mattel make them?

  • BRIAN

    Clavos… your joking… Your link took me to a BBC article that chose the US state dept as its source!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    And theres this:

    ‘The US has called for electoral reform in Venezuela after supporters of President Hugo Chavez swept all 167 seats in parliament. ‘

    Wow! What the hey! Given the US elections in 2000 and 2004 were embroiled in vote fraud… the US is in no position to tell other countries how to vote…..But why do nitwits like the BBC still us the US state dept, as a source of commentary on other countries? Maybe thats because the BBC is a corrupt organisation.

    Take a look at a bit lower down:

    ‘The BBC’s Greg Morsbach in Caracas says people queued to vote in deprived parts of the city, where support for the president is usually strong.

    Polling stations in middle class urban areas were almost empty, our correspondent says. ‘

    So what do we find, the middle and upper classes chose not to vote…well, they dont have to, just as they dont have to in US elections! But they DID vote in the poor areas.

    Meanwhile, the US lacks any idea of voter transparency in its elections, where they are controlled by uncontroled private corporations like Diebold.

    Meanwhile, lets go back to the Referendum of 2004: Historic high turnout… and back to the 2005 elections:

    ‘The opposition and some international observers have made the claim that the abstention rate of about 75% demonstrates a deep distrust in the electoral process and the Chávez government. [13] Government officials claim that the withdrawal of the opposition candidates was a tactic to undermine the vote as undemocratic and was done after seeing their low standing on the polls.

    The opposition claim of low voter confidence can also be disputed by the fact that more than 72% of Venezuelans voted in the Venezuelan Presidential election of 2006, an election where Hugo Chavez received close to 63% of the popular vote; far ahead of his closest rival who was supported by the main rightwing opposition parties. OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza criticized the withdrawal after the National Electoral Council‘s capitulation on the most urgent of the conditions the opposition parties had highlighted.

    SO what do we learn… the opposition knowing it had no chance of winning tried to scuttle the elections by not turnig up! In 2006, elections had a much higher turnout with Hugo STILL the clear winner.

  • brian

    Clavos:’There it is.

    The ad hominem attack, because you can’t refute troll with logic and facts.’

    not so, Troll got the response his post deserved

  • brian

    ‘Where can I get a Chavez action figure? Does Mattel make them?’

    youd better ask the chinese…Mattel prefers chinese slave labor in the making of its toys….and hang the safety.Its called capitalism.

  • moonraven

    Just a few quick ones:

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Venezuela’s percentage of registered voters who actually VOTE is among the highest on the planet.

    I don’t think the Chavez action doll is still on the market. A year ago there was a guy in Venezuela who lives on Isla Margarita still selling the set of two–red outfit and green fatigues model–on eBay.

    I haven’t checked recently as my nephew has now outgrown action figures and now listens when in Mexico the Chavez cd of rancheras and llaneras in played on the radio.

    Venezuela is not bringing back the firing squad.

    THIS POSTER is who is calling for bringing it back in the US of Assholes.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Where can I get a Chavez action figure? Does Mattel make them?

    Mattel doesn’t make, them but they ARE available on ebay and selling briskly. I’m sure MR and Brian have them.

    Dave

  • A lil bird told me

    Moonraven,its rather useless arguing with Nalle and Clavos.I’ve also noticed that most of your comments have been edited by the comments editor.These people on blogcritics are out to discredit and ultimately dissuade you from posting a contrarian opinion especially if it clashes with the rabid right wing ideology that they so like to wear on their smelly sleeves.Please see this link and read comment#1 and you’ll understand.If THEY don’t like what you write then THEY CAN indulge in personal attacks.But if you don’t like what they write just you try doing it and they’ll edit out all the juicy stuff.

  • A lil bird told me
  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “THIS POSTER is who is calling for bringing it [firing squad] back in the US of Assholes.”

    It’s technically not banned from Idaho or Oklahoma. But of course, you knew that.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But youd live to see Chavez removed….right dave?

    I’d love to see the people of Venezuela free and prosperous. Chavez seems to stand in the way of that.

    Capitalism and freedom? Why yoke those two words?

    Because they are directly related to each other.

    Theres more freedom in venezuela than in the US, where under Bush,

    Except for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of movement, freedom in education, etc.

    Hell, they’ve got every freedom except for actually being free.

    Meanwhile elections have been certified free and fair by the Carter Center and other observers

    Actually, a number of legitimate international observer groups have requested investigations into massive electoral fraud in both of the last two elections.

    imagine if Venezuela paid money to political groups in the US to overturn the US system! Youd be hopping mad.

    They do, Brian, and I have no real objections so long as they continue to abide by campaign finance rules – unlike the Chinese.

    Finally:when Chavez starts to invade his neighbors to plunder them to fill the needs of an economy he will have bankrupted.’

    This is so laughable absurd it could only have come from the head of desperate pirate capitalist!

    This is the conclusion which anyone educated in the history of autocratic government would make. It’s inevitable.

    Dave, you may fool other pirate capitalists

    What on earth is a ‘pirate capitalist’? I’m afraid I’m not up on my socialist jargon.

    the hated US is the enemy of freedom and democracy everywhere…witness what theyve done in Iraq!

    Indeed, we were so evil as to create the opportunity for a government to be democratically elected there. I guess if you hate what the US did in Iraq you must hate democracy.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Little bird, the article you refer to was posted before we had a regular comments editor and none of the comments there were edited at all. And the right wing commenter whose comment you’re objecting to was subsequently BANNED altogether from the site. So your claims of preferential editing seems a bit ridiculous.

    Clavos and I who are the main supporters of the people of Venezuela here are not, in fact, right wing extremists, but rather advocates of the liberal valeus of life, liberty and property and of the rights of people everywhere to be free. In US terms many of our positions would be called ‘liberal’. As for comments editing, our comments editor is a european socialist, culturally conditioned to be sympathetic to your position, yet he’s rational enough to spot personal attacks when he sees them.

    dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Arch finally got himself banned? For what?

    I noticed that he seemed to have been lying low recently. Huh.

  • A lil bird told me

    “….but rather advocates of the liberal valeus of life, liberty and property and of the rights of people everywhere to be free…”

    what a laugh…reactionary bigots like you masquerading as liberals

    Chris is good at his job,not you Nalle.

  • A lil bird told me

    well since you distance yourself from those comments made by Arch Conservative GO ON DELETE THEM

  • Martin Lav

    Little Bird,

    Clavos and Nalle are not Right – Wing Wacko’s they are just this sites self-appointed blowhards and know it alls.
    Do yourself a favor and leave this site like many others have, since you will get nowhere in responding to the likes of them. The editors of this site continue to show their disdain to all readers by allowing the likes of these two (probably the same persons) to inhabit this cyber-space.
    One of them is quite famous for his posting under assumed names ( Vox ) to enhance his own arguments.
    He himself will write articles of OPINION while trying to post comments as FACTS, all the while displaying a POSTER of himself, while deriding others of the same.

  • Lapdog

    “Clavos and I who are the main supporters of the people of Venezuela here are not, in fact, right wing extremists, but rather advocates of the liberal valeus of life, liberty and property and of the rights of people everywhere to be free.”

    But why are you so disproportionately concerned with Venezuelans being free when Native Americans’ in the US had their property taken by force along with their rights and freedom?

    Have you ever advocated anywhere on this site for the restoration of Native American land, rights and freedom?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Arch finally got himself banned? For what?

    I noticed that he seemed to have been lying low recently. Huh.

    I think he subsequently got reinstated. It was a 30-day ban like the one Moonraven was under at about the same time.

    what a laugh…reactionary bigots like you masquerading as liberals

    Bird, you wouldn’t recognize liberalism if it bit you on the ass. Perhaps you could describe the basic beliefs of liberalism as you see them. That might be amusing.

    well since you distance yourself from those comments made by Arch Conservative GO ON DELETE THEM

    Not my job. Now that we have a comments editor no one else edits comments.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But why are you so disproportionately concerned with Venezuelans being free when Native Americans’ in the US had their property taken by force along with their rights and freedom?

    Native Americans have the same rights and freedoms today that everyone else in the US has. They even have some extra privileges since they can choose to live on a reservation outside of US law (though I can’t imagine why they would make that choice) and some of them can even use hallucinogens which are prohibited to the general population.

    Have you ever advocated anywhere on this site for the restoration of Native American land, rights and freedom?

    I don’t believe in reparations for wrongs which happened generations ago. I do, however, believe that Native Americans should (and do) have all the rights and freedoms of any other US citizen, no better and no worse and no more privileged than anyone else.

    Position in society should be based on an individual’s accomplishments, not where his ancestors happened to be born or what ethnic group he belongs to.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    “Native Americans have the same rights and freedoms today that everyone else in the US has.”

    But they don’t have anywhere near the rights that Venezuelans have so why are you so fixated on their rights?

  • REMF

    “Arch finally got himself banned? For what?”

    Doing a poor impersonation of the Three Stooges’ “Curly”…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    “Native Americans have the same rights and freedoms today that everyone else in the US has.”

    But they don’t have anywhere near the rights that Venezuelans have so why are you so fixated on their rights?

    Not clear what you’re getting at here. Native Americans in the US obviously enjoy substantially more rights than the average Venezuelan citizen.

    Dave

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    To clear up some misconceptions here:-

    Mr Nalle is wrong when he claims we didn’t have a comments editor then; we did, it was me and in general terms I’m OK with the interchanges. Hindsight is always perfect but it’s better to learn and look forward than to revise the past. Revisionism is a dirty business at best.

    Dave is also being either disingenuous or simply daft when he claims not to be right wing; to my way of thinking his political mental map is firmly stuck in the late 20th century, which makes most of the things he says seem absurd.

    Of course, it’s hard to be sure how much of what he writes he actually believes. One example of this is his persistent tagging of me as a socialist, despite me having patiently explained my political perspective to him on at least half a dozen different occasions. Like many people he’s kind of stuck in a rut and seems incapable of updating his mental framework, more’s the pity.

    Doc, Arch isn’t banned, he just hasn’t been around lately.

    Mr Lav, as I believe you are well aware, Blogcritics is famously and rightly dogma free and doesn’t toe any cultural or political lines. If the site owners were to ban political blowhards, the carnage would be widespread and cut swathes through both sides of the political spectrum.

    It’s true that the hyperactive Mr Nalle did indeed once famously double team and the ins and outs of that were thrashed out in public for all to follow, rather than being dealt with secretly behind closed doors, again to the site’s credit.

    It’s also true that he regularly pulls off the classic doublethink of considering his own views as the product of reason whilst decrying the views of others as dogma or extreme. Personally, I find that characteristic of the dogmatic thinking he decries, which is ironic to say the least!

    Lapdog, please refer to my depiction of the Nalleian thinking process above.

    Lil Bird, one sure fire way to piss off the comments editor is to post under multiple identities, particularly if you do it to support your own arguments. So far you’re only halfway there so please consider your approach…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Mr Nalle is wrong when he claims we didn’t have a comments editor then; we did, it was me

    Sorry, I haven’t kept track of how long we’ve had a comment editor, I just made an erroneous assumption based on how long ago it was and the fact that there was no discernable editing. I’m surprised you let that comment from Archie get through. You were mellower back then.

    Dave is also being either disingenuous or simply daft when he claims not to be right wing; to my way of thinking his political mental map is firmly stuck in the late 20th century, which makes most of the things he says seem absurd..

    It’s already been thoroughly established that your rigid eurocentric viewpoint renders you incapable of accepting or even abstractly understanding what terms like ‘conservative’ mean in the US context.

    I do agree that in European terms I am Conservative, though really there’s no major movement in any major European country which I would consider myself politically compatible with.

    Of course, it’s hard to be sure how much of what he writes he actually believes.

    Indeed it is.

    One example of this is his persistent tagging of me as a socialist, despite me having patiently explained my political perspective to him on at least half a dozen different occasions. Like many people he’s kind of stuck in a rut and seems incapable of updating his mental framework, more’s the pity.

    It’s just easier to throw a label on you than to try to explain the body of delusional thinking and self-deception on which your worldview is based.

    It’s also true that he regularly pulls off the classic doublethink of considering his own views as the product of reason whilst decrying the views of others as dogma or extreme. Personally, I find that characteristic of the dogmatic thinking he decries, which is ironic to say the least!

    But we’ve been over this before and the rigidity of your thoughts and your utter lack of vision are pretty well established.

    Dave

  • Martin Lav

    Thanks Chris, but please make him take down the poster of himself, it makes Mussolini look like a Hollywood Movie Star and you do have a policy about vulgar, vile and cruel and embarrassing to the site….

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, I just love the way you keep proving me right whilst earnestly trying to disprove. Please do keep it up.

    To correct your latest errors:- the only reason more bad comments were being tolerated then was because you were harassing me both publicly and in the editor’s group to respect the traditions of free speech.

    Against my better judgement, I went along with your naive if well intentioned ideas until it became evident that pure policy wasn’t good enough and pragmatism had to take over.

    Notably, you have since then shifted your own position considerably, even going so far as to call for the banning of certain commenters, a call I have steadfastly and regularly rejected.

    It’s you that has rigid views Dave, so referring to me in those terms is nothing but pure comedy. Fortunately, the joke is on you.

    Thanks for proving, once again, that you just throw out tags rather than actually engage with anybody that disagrees with you. I love the way you are confirming your dogmatically simplistic approach, it’s SO dated as to be in danger of becoming fashionable again. One day!

    Yeah, Dave, it’s me that’s stuck in a mental rut. Just keep telling yourself that, it’s your equivalent of whistling as you walk past the graveyard, a real comfort blanket thing.

    Now run along and write some more of your deliriously dated political screeds.

    Martin, I wish, but Dave has that American flashiness thing going on. In a word, shameless!

  • Martin Lav

    Is that some bling he’s wearing around his neck on the “outside” of his shirt? Probably one of those snaggly tooths left over from when he had hair, wore cheeks and danced to Burning Inferno.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, I just love the way you keep proving me right whilst earnestly trying to disprove. Please do keep it up.

    This is indeed a classic, Christopher. I love the way you make this statement and then go on to prove that your main claim about me is wrong.

    To correct your latest errors:- the only reason more bad comments were being tolerated then was because you were harassing me both publicly and in the editor’s group to respect the traditions of free speech.

    Against my better judgement, I went along with your naive if well intentioned ideas until it became evident that pure policy wasn’t good enough and pragmatism had to take over.

    Notably, you have since then shifted your own position considerably, even going so far as to call for the banning of certain commenters, a call I have steadfastly and regularly rejected.

    It’s you that has rigid views Dave,

    So, you point out in the paragraphs above that I changed my views on the subject of unlimited free expression in the context of this site, but yet you follow it up yet again by stating that my views are rigid. Did I change my position or was I rigid? Pick one.

    Thanks for proving, once again, that you just throw out tags rather than actually engage with anybody that disagrees with you. I love the way you are confirming your dogmatically simplistic approach, it’s SO dated as to be in danger of becoming fashionable again. One day!

    Admitting that tags sometimes make things easier isn’t the same as thinking in such simplistic terms. One would hope that you understood this, but I’m constantly reminded that I have to go in baby steps so I don’t lose some readers.

    Martin, I wish, but Dave has that American flashiness thing going on. In a word, shameless!

    Your mistaken assumption here is that I have anything at all to be ashamed of.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Is that some bling he’s wearing around his neck on the “outside” of his shirt?

    It’s a croakie for my reading glasses, Martin – so I don’t lose them.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    “Native Americans in the US obviously enjoy substantially more rights than the average Venezuelan citizen.”

    Which rights are Venezuelan citizens missing?

  • moonraven

    It’s very simple, really–pathetically so, in fact:

    Dave advocates freedom of expression for himself and for posters who agree with his point of view ONLY. [Edited]

    He advocates NO FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION for anyone who disagrees with his point of view.

    You can’t get more rigid–or more gringo–than that.

    I am starting to see that his REAL hero is Norman Bates–since Nalle tells us he has a little old lady’s glasses leash around his neck.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • REMF

    “Did I change my position or was I rigid?”
    – Dave Nalle

    I guess it depends on whether your Viagra had kicked in yet…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Which rights are Venezuelan citizens missing?

    Property rights, free speech rights, free assembly (if you’re an anti-government protestor shot at by snipers), a Free Press. Haven’t we been over this all before? No question they have some rights left, so long as the government chooses to observe them. I don’t expect it to continue to do so for too long.

    dave

  • Lapdog

    Dave, Venezuelan citizens have property rights and will always have them. There’s no problem with free assembly. Pro-government demonstrators also get attacked occasionally. And the press in Venezuela has as much or more freedom as any other country in the Americas. Those rights are in good hands as long as Chavez remains in office.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lap, you seem marginally more honest and less fanatical than Moonraven, so I’m assuming that you say this stuff out of ignorance or because someone at your local MoveOn chapter told you how great things are in Venezuela and you never thought to question it. MR saying this silly stuff I’d just ignore. Maybe you deserve actual answers.

    Venezuelan citizens have property rights and will always have them.

    Except, of course, for those whose land is being seized by the government, as detailed in this BBC Article

    There’s no problem with free assembly. Pro-government demonstrators also get attacked occasionally.

    So all these people were marching to protest nothing at all? And RCTV was never actually shut down?

    And the press in Venezuela has as much or more freedom as any other country in the Americas.

    That would be a sad commentary on press freedom in America, were it true. However, according to the Press Freedom Index at Reporters Without Borders in the latest listing (before RCTV was shut down) Venezuela ranked 114th out of 169 countries. Of contries in the Americas only Sierra Leone, Colombia and Peru ranked (slightly) lower. With the RCTV shutdown I’d guess Venezuela will drop below all of those countries. Watch for it early next year. And you can’t really fault RSF or call them colonialist tools, because they slammed the hell out of the US in the last few years dropping us down 30 spots since 2002, largely in connection with the Iraq war.

    Those rights are in good hands as long as Chavez remains in office.

    the evidence clearly says otherwise.

    Dave

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, one swallow doesn’t make a summer. I know your rigidly programmed brain will have trouble with this concept, but it is entirely possible to be rigid in one’s thinking and change your mind.

    Not that that is what you did, you simply abandoned one of fundamental principals when you were getting the worst of the argument. You wanted people like moonraven edited or banned but not, if I recall correctly, the likes of JOM or Arch, who you defended.

    The real tragedy of the Nalle experience is that he is so arrogantly smug and complacent as to think he’s quite smart, as the revealing remark “I’m constantly reminded that I have to go in baby steps so I don’t lose some readers” so perfectly shows.

    The truth of the matter is that he’s just another one of those who pays lip service to intelligence whilst actually just repeating dogma like a machine. The only way you lose readers is when they stop following what you say because it is so dim.

    As to shameless; you’re arrogant, elitist, complacent, unbelievably patronising and as thick as a stick. Shameless? I think the case is proven but I’m sure you won’t even consider the possibility, you know, because you just get everything so right.

    Some people receive and transmit but you are just simply permanently stuck on transmit, to such an extent that you ignore much of what people say to you and just respond dogmatically and robotically. Just because you say so doesn’t make it so Dave, though of course you can never admit that.

    For me the real tragedy is that you do indeed espouse some worthwhile ideas but utterly undermine both them and yourself with the way you go about things.

    As the old saying goes, empty vessels make the most noise and, as the most frequent commenter to the site by a long way, you are easily the loudest, if not the most tuneful.

  • brian

    No Dave, i leave action figures for those still enamoured of Schwarzennegger…

  • brian

    More from dave (his lies or is it fantasies, keep multiplying):

    Dave: ‘I’d love to see the people of Venezuela free and prosperous. Chavez seems to stand in the way of that.’

    Newsflash dave, the poor are now getting more prosperous thanks to Chavez…. but why were they so wretchedly poor BEFORE Chavez was elected? Hmmm? Youre saying they wern’t poor then….

    Me: ‘Capitalism and freedom? Why yoke those two words?’

    Dave: ‘Because they are directly related to each other.’

    How are they directly related to each other? What do you understand by ‘capitalism’? Unless freedom is a euphemism for ‘free-market’… which is a market with no government oversight. That’s usually called anarchy. The devil take the hindmost is the essence of capitalism.

    Dave: ‘Except for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of movement, freedom in education, etc.’

    The press has been in the control of the power elite for decades, and has as much freedom as they permit it. BUT during the 2002 aborted coup, the press censored itself and the state media, as shown in The Revolution Will Not Be televised: you can see it here, where RCTV is actualy thanked for its part in the coup… an act that had it happened in US would have had RCTV execs in jail.

    So ironicaly, we haev less freedom of the press during the coup when the old elite is back in power,… than ever under Chavez… Can Dave give any eg of lack of freedom of expression? Freedom in education??? What do you mean by that? You seem to be stringing words together. Do you mean freedom to lie about history?

    Dave: ‘ they’ve got every freedom except for actually being free.’

    Again, dave what do you mean by ‘free’ here in this twisted statement?

    Dave: ‘Actually, a number of legitimate international observer groups have requested investigations into massive electoral fraud in both of the last two elections.’

    Me: What ‘legitimate international observer groups’??? Care to name them?

    Dave; ‘They do, Brian, and I have no real objections so long as they continue to abide by campaign finance rules – unlike the Chinese.’

    In fact its illegal under us law for foreigners to finance political parties… as Kerry found out.

    Finally: when Chavez starts to invade his neighbors to plunder them to fill the needs of an economy he will have bankrupted.’

    This is so laughable absurd it could only have come from the head of a desperate pirate capitalist!

    Dave: ‘This is the conclusion which anyone educated in the history of autocratic government would make. It’s inevitable.’

    So thats what youve spent your years: studying autocratic govts… hope you began wit your own… Pity Venezuela’s govt is not autocratic now… its a popularly elected govt with a mandate from the people for social change…

    Dave: ‘What on earth is a ‘pirate capitalist’? I’m afraid I’m not up on my socialist jargon.’

    Yes, its a bit of a tautology, capitalists are pirates, who rob from the poor to enrich themselves… its called ‘profit’.

    Dave: Indeed, we were so evil as to create the opportunity for a government to be democratically elected there. I guess if you hate what the US did in Iraq you must hate democracy.’

    No Dave, us turned the iraqi economy over to private american firms (Bremers orders), said who could take part in the elections, made us mercenaries above the law (Bremer again) and has forbidden sovereignty. That’s why iraqis want US out and to pay for the damages.

    also Bush himself said of Lebanon that you cant have free elections while a country is under occupation… Thats what Iraq is: a country under foreign military occupation…

    Here is where Dave and bush are at one with their talent for lying with a straight face:

    Bush: ‘The president said the United States expects Syria “to be completely out” to allow the Lebanese people to vote in free parliamentary elections.

    Bush said the elections should be held “as scheduled” before the end of May, and “need to be free and fair, without interference.”

    ‘President Bush had one thing right when he said in March 2005: “All [foreign] military forces and intelligence personnel must withdraw before the… elections for those elections to be free and fair’

    Here’s an interesting commentary on this fascinating subject romanticised by dave:

    ‘The illegitimacy of elections conducted under military occupation is not a new issue. In our assessment of one year ago, looking ahead to the January 2005 Iraqi election we noted, “As currently planned, the … elections in Iraq are designed to provide a veneer of credibility and legitimacy to the continuation of U.S. control of Iraq, through election of a U.S.-friendly government that will welcome the U.S. military bases in Iraq, and through the drafting of a U.S.-oriented constitution…” That scenario remains largely unchanged today, despite the broader range of Iraqi political forces participating in and mobilizing for the election, especially significant Sunni participation.

    We also noted one year ago that “powerful U.S. political operations are also underway in Iraq aimed at influencing the outcome of the elections. Whatever money may be entering Iraq from Iran or other regional centers, it is almost certain that (despite official Washington denials) U.S. financial and political influence-buying is far more extensive
    etc

    fascinating stuff, isnt it dave…

    This last lie: that iraqis love the us occupation is just proof Dave is not really serious.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Not clear what you’re getting at here. Native Americans in the US obviously enjoy substantially more rights than the average Venezuelan citizen. ‘

    Like what rights, Dave? Yoiu keep making baseless claims without ever offering any support. Native americans view their plight very different than your rosy view of them.

  • brian

    on Hugo Chavez, native americans and the poor:

    ‘Hugo Chavez is a controversial figure to America, especially amongst its politicians. But he has done much to improve the living conditions, the health care and the educational opportunities for his own people in Venezuela, especially for the very poor and the indigenous.’

    Native American journalist Jodi Lee Rave of Lee Enterprise Newspapers was recently lambasted in a letter to the editor to our local daily for having the temerity to laud the donation of funds for heating fuel for the very poor Indian nations of the Northern Plains.

    The criticism was initiated by the fact that the donor was the Citgo Petroleum Corporation based in Houston, Texas and headed by the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, the man reviled by many Americans for referring to President George W. Bush on the floor of the United Nations as the “Devil.”

    How did it happen that the President of Venezuela reached out to help the poor and the indigenous people of the United States? After two major hurricanes devastated the Southern U. S., a group of U. S. Senators sent out a plea to the major oil companies to help low-income families with energy assistance. Most major oil companies were coming off of scandalous profits because of the sharp rise in fuel costs. Only one company heeded the plea of the senators and that was Citgo Petroleum Corporation headed by Chavez.

    Federal and state funding for low-income energy assistance programs has dropped dramatically in the past few years. A late winter blast in the Northern Plains hit at a time when most of the federal dollars for low-income energy assistance had run out. The late winter freeze left many indigenous people in dire straits. When it comes to a matter of surviving, Indians and other impoverished people reach out to any assistance available. Olympic Gold Medallist Billy Mills, an Oglala Lakota, used his non-profit Running Strong Foundation to raise energy funds for some low-income households, but even his generosity could not fill the need.

    Many tribes in Montana and North and South Dakota were advised to attend a meeting in Polson, Montana on December 13, 2006 to listen and discuss how they could avail themselves of the money for heating assistance. Rafael Gomez, Vice President of Citgo, and Brian O’Connor of the Citizens Energy Corporation of Boston attended the meeting. O’Connor’s non-profit organization administered the program last year and would be charged with administering the program for the Indian tribes.

    Although major oil corporations like Exxon had reaped more profit last year than at any time in their history, they declined the invitation to lend a helping hand to the poor people of America. Hugo Chavez stepped in to fill the gap. What motives would prompt him to do this? Certainly it would not help him politically, at least not in America where one of this Nation’s top religious figures, Pat Robertson, called for his assassination.

    Some of the very poor Indian tribes like the Chippewa Cree of the Rocky Boy Reservation in Montana, the Cheyenne River and the Oglala Sioux Tribes in South Dakota needed the funds in order to keep their people from freezing to death and accepted the donation from Mr. Chavez willingly. Where was the rich casino owning tribes? Busy counting their money I would guess.

    There is an old saying out here that goes, “You will know me better when you walk a mile in my moccasins.” Hugo Chavez is a member of an indigenous tribe in Venezuela. He has been called “Indio” and worse while growing up as the child of very poor parents. He has walked in the moccasins of the indigenous people.

    In America it is very easy to hate someone who verbally attacks the president of the United States. Chavez has never held his tongue even amongst his own people or in criticizing other nations in South America. I am told that he was appalled when the major oil companies in America did not step forward to help their own poor and low-income people when called upon to do so. He saw this as the kind of colonialism he has grown to despise.

    Chavez is not alone in his mistrust of America. In fact, America’s status is at an all-time low in many Central and South American countries. Chavez did not create this situation and he is not above using it as a tool to annoy Bush and his administration.

    Hugo Chavez is a controversial figure to America, especially amongst its politicians. But he has done much to improve the living conditions, the health care and the educational opportunities for his own people in Venezuela, especially for the very poor and the indigenous. As a matter of record Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani’s law firm lobbies for Citgo Petroleum Corporation. Does he keep his fingers crossed behind his back when he attacks Chavez?

    Huffington Post

  • brian

    Dave:’Property rights, free speech rights, free assembly (if you’re an anti-government protestor shot at by snipers), a Free Press. Haven’t we been over this all before? No question they have some rights left, so long as the government chooses to observe them. I don’t expect it to continue to do so for too long’

    Property rightsd? You mean the venezuelans in their barrios or the ones in the penthouses?

    Free speech is alive and well, just go read the hysterical attacks on chavez in the venezuelan media.
    There is free assembly. Snipers? You should keep off the techila, Dave!

  • troll

    so brian – you appear to advocate that we move away from the principle of maximized profit and organize production around some other principle…and I assume that you’re looking for something other than state capitalism

    what’s your vision of this new principle – ?

  • troll

    ps – you demand that government stand between the classes – so long as it does they will continue on unable to work out a just relationship

    anarchy is the way

  • brian

    Troll: ‘ – you appear to advocate that we move away from the principle of maximized profit and organize production around some other principle…’

    Troll, do you advocate maximising profits at te expense of human add natural well being? Thats the issue.

    State capitalism … you mean the situation where states (ie governments) defer to capitalists??? and allow them to make the rules?

  • brian

    my vision is the old one…do others as you would have them do to you…and dont do to others what you would not have them do to you…..

  • brian

    Dave is a congenital liar….thats the tragedy, as it is of so many americans, who support a government that doesnt care two hoots about them, while demonising a government (Chavez’s) which has a good record of acting in the public interest. dave is either a plant on this site, or a very dumb american.

  • Clavos

    When all else fails, call your opponent a liar. If you’re really desperate, use a cliché and call him a congenital liar.

    Excellent debate tactic, that.

    What bullshit.

    But not surprising, coming from too dense to see the growing despotism of El Chango and his thug supporters.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    then there are the times when the person IS a liar (not necessarily in this case)

    it’s important to call folks out on it when discovered, and such should NOT be shouted down merely because of the accusation…

    prove it one way or the other, imo

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Newsflash dave, the poor are now getting more prosperous thanks to Chavez…. but why were they so wretchedly poor BEFORE Chavez was elected? Hmmm? Youre saying they wern’t poor then….

    When did I say anything like that? Sure, Venezuela has always had crushing poverty. Chavez has made things slightly better for some parts of the population, though most of the money destined to help the poor has gone into the pockets of his cronies. But just giving the poor a handout does not build the infrastructure for longterm economic mobility, and Chavez has done very little to accomplish real, positive economic change.

    Me: ‘Capitalism and freedom? Why yoke those two words?’

    Dave: ‘Because they are directly related to each other.’

    How are they directly related to each other? What do you understand by ‘capitalism’? Unless freedom is a euphemism for ‘free-market’… which is a market with no government oversight. That’s usually called anarchy. The devil take the hindmost is the essence of capitalism.

    I’ve never advocated a market with zero government oversight, and that’s not what most people mean by a ‘free market’. But what I’m talking about here – obviously – is that without the freedom to own property and operate a business then you will not have capitalism, and without capitalism of some sort you will not accomplish economic prosperity on the individual level.

    Can Dave give any eg of lack of freedom of expression?

    When you shut down TV stations and intimidate and threaten the newspapers and other media into broadcasting only government approved news, that’s the end of freedom of expression.

    Freedom in education??? What do you mean by that? You seem to be stringing words together. Do you mean freedom to lie about history?

    No, I mean freedom to NOT lie about history. As I exposed in a previous article, Chavez is making private schools either teach government propaganda or be decertified.

    Me: What ‘legitimate international observer groups’??? Care to name them?

    Sure, the OAS which originally certified the 2004 election reversed its position, and the main analyst at the Carter center reversed his position as well after looking at suspicious data from the electronic voting machines where 400 different machines produced exactly the same numerical results for Chavez.

    So thats what youve spent your years: studying autocratic govts… hope you began wit your own… Pity Venezuela’s govt is not autocratic now… its a popularly elected govt with a mandate from the people for social change…

    It is a government which is already autocratic in many ways and is moving towards full autocracy. They held elections in Russia when I lived there, but that didn’t make the country free.

    Yes, its a bit of a tautology, capitalists are pirates, who rob from the poor to enrich themselves… its called ‘profit’.

    Nothing inherently wrong with profit. The producer of a product or the person who distributes and sells it deserves to be paid for his efforts. Capitalists do not rob from the poor, they provide goods and services at a price determined by the market, which is generally as low as possible while still making enough profit to operate successfully.

    I’m going to ignore the silly ranting about the Iraq war.

    Like what rights, Dave? Yoiu keep making baseless claims without ever offering any support. Native americans view their plight very different than your rosy view of them.

    Native Americans have all the legal rights of any other US citizen should they choose to exercise them. My wife is native american and she seems not to be terribly oppressed by it.

    Dave

  • brian

    Clavos:’When all else fails, call your opponent a liar’….
    all else hasnt failed, and Dave has been lying this whole thread…go back and read my responses to his posts.

  • troll

    brian asks – *Troll, do you advocate maximising profits at te expense of human add natural well being?*

    the answer is no…that out of the way – it’s not clear to me how the golden rule can act as the decision criterion for economic activity – though I agree that it ‘ought’ to be fundamental in production relations

    consider the simplicity of the maximized profit motive – our challenge is to come up with a replacement that is equally efficient

  • moonraven

    I would just like to point out that the two posters on this site who constantly accuse anyone who disaqrees with them of LYING or the very two posters who have never given us EVEN ONE piece of documentation to support their outrageously libelous claims against the noon-white presidents of Latin America (nor, in passing in regard to Fidel Castro, a white president).

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Folks like Nalle who spend their lives in the UNCONSCIOUS– playing games, fantasizing, building up self-concepts that have zero relation to how they are–engage in PROJECTION AS A LIFE STYLE.

    AS I HAVE INDICATED BEFORE, THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK, BUT A DIAGNOSIS.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    You wanted people like moonraven edited or banned but not, if I recall correctly, the likes of JOM or Arch, who you defended

    Not surprisingly you don’t recall correctly. In fact, I opposed banning anyone until it was pointed out to me that Moonraven had expressly stated that she was coming to BC solely for the purpose of being disruptive in her special toublemaking personna. None of the other people you mention, incredibly annoying though they were, had the express intent to contribute nothing positive and only cause trouble. So I supported banning Moonraven because she was condemned by her own admission to be a saboteur rather than a user.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Now, back to the topic:

    As I am in the US until tomorrow, I had ordered a few books in English from amazon.com before I came up here.

    When they did not arrive, I called amazon as their website indicated I had ordered nothing since APRIL, Yet they had charged the books to my VISA on October 13th!

    Some moron [Edited] hemmed and hawed and called me a liar so I called VISA and they did a charge back–and the person who did it is VERY interested in becoming a hired killer for any projects I may have here in the US but that is another story.

    The books arrived yesterday. Now the ethical decision is whether I will actually have my daughter write a check to VISA for them….

    Two of the books in English are Bart Jones bio of Chavez (too thick and hardcover which makes me grumble) and Gregory Wilpert’s Changing Venezuela by Taking Power.

    I have started the Bart Jones–probably because it has cute pics of Chavez when he was a baby, in his twenties, thirties and THIN.

    So far I would recommend it–as nobody on this site except this poster has met and talked with Chavez–or has read all of the lengthy interviews done with him by, among others, Martha Harnecker.

    Nalle and clavos will not read these books–they are SCARED that they mnght come in contact with something resembling The Truth.
    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Chavez has made things slightly better for some parts of the population, though most of the money destined to help the poor has gone into the pockets of his cronies’

    Me: another lie dave.But at least you admit things are better under Chavez…but Chavez has no ‘cronies’ Lie 1…nor has he been siphoning off money for them…Lie 2. And you prove it by not posting any evidence…If it was true, the US media would be all over that story!

    Dave: ‘I’ve never advocated a market with zero government oversight, and that’s not what most people mean by a ‘free market”

    Me: In fact it is what is meant by a ‘free market’. But theres also that other bit: where government acts FOR industry…as we see with the FDA, for eg. This works because industry puts its men/women into government.

    Dave: ‘No, I mean freedom to NOT lie about history. As I exposed in a previous article, Chavez is making private schools either teach government propaganda or be decertified.’

    Me: like WHAT government propaganda?

    What main analyst at the Carter Center? Still no verbatim quotes.
    OAS reversed itself? Show proof it did and evidence of their analysis. Youve still ignored the abundant evidence ive posted of that other and real 2004 election fraud…The US!

    Dave: ‘It is a government which is already autocratic in many ways and is moving towards full autocracy’

    Why does this sound like an invention….when its well known Venezuela is moving toward a participatiry democracy! But on this subject, Most ‘democracies’ are autocratic. As we see with the US, the Democratic party after being voited into power in House of Reps and Senate, ignored the people who put it there, and refused to use its power to impeach Bush/Cheney and to stop the bloody war in Iraq…

    Dave: ‘Nothing inherently wrong with profit.’

    Me: The problem arises when profits are made by impoverishing people….witness the way companies send their production to places like China (much in the news lately!), where wages are much less….thus robbing americans of work.

    Dave: ‘Capitalists do not rob from the poor, they provide goods and services at a price determined by the market’

    Mer: thats pure fantasy…see above. The case of China has been in the press lately. Its a fitting punishment that US companies outsourcing there where labor is cheap and so profits are hgigh, find their wares have been poisoning kiddies back home!

    Dave:’When you shut down TV stations and intimidate and threaten the newspapers and other media into broadcasting only government approved news, that’s the end of freedom of expression’

    Me: Yawn! RCTV was not shut down..it had its license to use PUBLIC airwaves not renewed. The same RCTV DID shut down the govt stations during the Coup, which it aided…as ive already shown and you keep ignoring. Intimidation is what the elit media in Venezuela are constantly engaged in…

    Dave: ‘I’m going to ignore the silly ranting about the Iraq war.’

    Thats just what the Bush govt does…The iraq war has killed > 1 million people.And you decide to ignore it. How revealing of you.

    Dave:’Native Americans have all the legal rights of any other US citizen should they choose to exercise them.’

    Just like Black americans….

    Dave: ‘They held elections in Russia when I lived there, but that didn’t make the country free’

    What do you mean by that word ‘free’? Ive noticed its a festish mush used by the american far right, as in ‘Freedom House’, a group funded by the US govt whose role is to overthrow governments who dont do US bidding.

    Dave: ‘is that without the freedom to own property and operate a business then you will not have capitalism, and without capitalism of some sort you will not accomplish economic prosperity on the individual level.’

    Me: individual level? You mean the entrepreneur: the businesss owner….You see thats just the problem…capitalism is concerned with maximising profits…to do so one method is to mi imise costs….one of which is workers pay…Hence the hatred they show of the minimum wage.

  • brian

    John Pilger on how Chavez is demonised by the mainstream media, and maybe why Dave is so ingorant of Venezuela:

    ‘If we journalists are ever to reclaim the honour of our craft, we need to understand, at least, the historic task that great power assigns us. This is to “soften-up” the public for rapacious attack on countries that are no threat to us. We soften them up by de-humanising them, by writing about “regime change” in Iran as if that country is an abstraction, not a human society. Currently, journalists are softening up Iran, Syria and Venezuela.

    Hugo Chavez of Venezuela is likened to Hitler. That he has won nine democratic elections and referenda — a world record — is of no interest.

    A few weeks ago, Channel 4 News in Britain – regarded as a liberal news service – carried a major item that might have been broadcast by the State Department. The reporter, Jonathan Rugman, the Washington correspondent, presented Chavez as a cartoon character, a sinister buffoon whose folksy Latin way camouflaged a man “in danger of joining a rogue gallery of dictators and despots – Washington’s latest Latin nightmare.” In contrast, Condaleeza Rice was afforded gravitas and Rumsfeld was allowed to call Chavez Hitler, unchallenged.

    Indeed, almost everything in this travesty of journalism was viewed from Washington, only fragments of it from the barrios of Venezuela, where President Chavez enjoys 80 per cent popularity. In crude Soviet-flick style, Chavez was shown with Saddam Hussein when this brief encounter only had to do with OPEC and oil. According to the reporter, Venezuela under Chavez was helping Iran develop nuclear weapons. No evidence was given for this absurdity.

    The softening-up of Venezuela is well advanced in the United States.

    Ninety-five per cent of 100 media commentaries surveyed by the media watch dog FAIR expressed hostility to Chavez. “Dictator”, “strongman”, “demagogue” were the familiar buzz words, so that people reading and watching had no idea that Venezuela was the only oil-producing country in the world to use its oil revenue for the benefit of poor people. They would have no idea of spectacular developments in health, education, literacy. They would have no idea that Venezuela has no political jails – unlike the United States.

    So that if the Bush administration launches “Operation Balboa”, a mooted plan to overthrow the Chavez government, who will care, because who will know? For we shall only have the media version – another lousy demagogue got what was coming to him. The poor of Venezuela, like the poor of Nicaragua, like the poor of Vietnam and Cambodia, like the poor of Fallujah, whose dreams and lives are of no interest, will be invisible in their grief — a triumph of censorship by journalism.

    What should journalists do? I mean, journalists who give a damn? They need to act now. Governments fear good journalists. The reason the Pentagon spends millions of dollars on PR, or “perception management” companies that try to bend the news is because it fears truth tellers, just as Stalinist governments feared them. There is no difference. Look back at the great American journalists: Upton Sinclair, Edward R Murrow, Martha Gellhorn, I. F.Stone, Seymour Hersh. All were mavericks. None embraced the corporate world of journalism and its modern supplier: the media college.

    It is said the internet is an alternative; and what is wonderful about the rebellious spirits on the World Wide Web is that they often report as journalists should. They are mavericks in the tradition of the great muckrakers: those like the Irish journalist Claud Cockburn, who said: “Never believe anything until it is officially denied.” But the internet is still a kind of samidzat, an underground, and most of humanity does not log on; just as most of humanity does not own a cell phone. And the right to know ought to be universal. That other great muckraker, Tom Paine, warned that if the majority of the people were denied the truth and ideas of truth, it was time to storm what he called the “Bastille of words”. That time is now.”
    John Pilger

  • moonraven

    Nalle,

    Free speech being honored or not now depends on the motive of the person, huh?

    RCTV spent 24/7 when it was broadcasting on the open channel range inciting the overthrow of the Chavez government.

    Got ya dead in the water here, redneck:

    According to YOUR own defense of demanding that I be banned from this site, MY MOTIVES were not wholesome and therefore I did not deserve to post.

    You can’t have it both ways [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]. You just wanted me banned because I have flayed your big ignorant ass with my verbal machete so that you look like roadkill.

    Changing the subject to SNIPERS:

    There WERE snipers firing on folks on April 11, 2002 in Caracas. That sniper team was put together by the CIA operatives in Venezuela.

    (Venezolanos, in the main, are not good shots–even the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald was probably better.)

    So: YOUR tax dollars paid for the one SNIPER incident that has taken place since Chavez took office in 1999.

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dave, I’m astonished Moonraven hasn’t picked up on your major blooper in comment #132. You know how she loves to castigate you on your supposed lack of geographical skills.

    Sierra Leone is in Africa, not the Americas.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    I thought it would be interesting to include the views of a Venezuelan living in Venezuela in this debate – that would be me. Not because my opinions are interesting at all but because none of you live under the president you guys are talking about, and I think it has some value to talk from that experience.

    First, I don’t know much about the phsycological troubles of my president, but there is some true on that personality cult he denounces. Chavez posters are just everywhere, in the highways and the subway of my city: Caracas and in the walls of small distant towns too, in the middle of a road, taking a lot of pages in the sunday newspaper and so on…

    Second, some of the commenters should make an effort to put their facts straight. Despite if you are agree with my president or not, it is irresponsible to deny that no journalist has been killed (a photographer for a local newspaper was killed in the demonstration of April, 2002) or that none is in prison because we have a large list of political prisioners and people who had to clame asylum. We have a large list of threats, personal attacks, and crazy charges against the media and who ever wants to speak against the president that make no sense with the law what so ever. And perhaps the commenters who ignore this should come to Caracas and go to an opposition demonstration to see if they can stand the beats, the tear gas, the pellets, and ocassionally the gunshoots.

    About Chavez improving the lives of Venezuelans I could not tell, he has been ruling the country for almost 10 years and the barrios (shanty towns) have not changed much. One day a boliviarian school is build, the next day is abandoned. One day a barrio adentro (medical care) module its settled in a barrio and the next day you hear all kinds of denounces of bad practice from the cuban doctors. And the new universities are socialist schools, not real universities. We dont have stadistics that can really tell if there has been a real improving on life conditions. No evaluation has been seriously made on those programs, none that I heard of. We can only guess.

    Third, if I havent seen a change in the barrios, I have seen huge changes on other things. For example you see all kinds of new expensive cars that I have never seen before crossing my city. The Hummers are the most common ones. Of course, theres nothing wrong with that, but even Chavez itself denounce that amazing buy of new Hummers, people say down here, that the owners are people who work for the government. We call the Hummers “Chavistas” cars- And this is just a tiny example of the corruption we are witnessing.

    And we have more hummers and more propaganda now but less milk, oil, black beans, chicken, meat, flour and sugar. The shortages you guys might heard of on the news are real. At home we deal with them by buying for example brown sugar when we can find it, or chocolate milk when we can find it. The black beans that once were so common and a part of one of our traditional dishes are now like gold. When my mom brings black beans at home now its like she were bringing a special french sweet and like one-two years ago it was as common as the air.

    With the shortages, the Venezuelan daily life faces another trouble, which is the insecurity situation. The delincuence its up rising like never before. And it touches every single home. In less than a year, one of my classmates was killed, a cousin was briefly kidnapped, my sister in law was almost robbed, and the brother of one friend of mine was also briefly kidnapped. Like always, the poor ones are the ones who gets the worse part , if an area its more poor, its also more dangerous. The people just get killed for any reason, and theres no justice, the killers might be working with the police or the police itself its less powerfull than them.

    For some commenters the Bolivarian Revolution might be an amazing challenge to the US imperialism. Despite my opinions on the US imperialism, I live here, and this is my Bolivarian Revolution that I have to deal with every single day. I could go on and on with more facts and experiences, but I write a blog for that and in this space, I think Im pretty much let my point clear.

    Regards, and excuses about my bad english.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    But as you well know, Dave, someone’s motives are not grounds for banning them, so once again your argument makes no sense.

    Furthermore, both JOM and Arch have said on more than one occasion that they keep coming back to BC because of its leftist bias, so you are factually wrong as well.

    All that’s left is your selective and subjective prejudice against people from certain parts of the political spectrum, a fact you are apparently incapable of recognising.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    “All that’s left is your selective and subjective prejudice against people from certain parts of the political spectrum, a fact you are apparently incapable of recognising.”

    Quoted for Truth…

    Excelsior?

  • Lapdog

    Julia: “With the shortages, the Venezuelan daily life faces another trouble, which is the insecurity situation. The delincuence its up rising like never before. And it touches every single home. In less than a year, one of my classmates was killed, a cousin was briefly kidnapped, my sister in law was almost robbed, and the brother of one friend of mine was also briefly kidnapped. Like always, the poor ones are the ones who gets the worse part , if an area its more poor, its also more dangerous. The people just get killed for any reason, and theres no justice, the killers might be working with the police or the police itself its less powerfull than them.”

    The conditions you describe existed long before Chavez came to power.

    What you’ve described is a mild version of the conditions that Native Americans have faced for generations. You are very fortunate that your homeland isn’t occupied by a foreign power.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    You are wrong, this conditions existed but not even close in the same way before Chavez came to my country. Im speaking only of Venezuela so dont take the credit of putting my words in some other country . Also, dont try to ignore or justify this situation by saying that it has existed before Chavez. If Chavez has been ruling for so long, he had plain of time to change certain conditions, but he only has made things worse. The life before Chavez it just wasn’t this way.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Me: another lie dave.But at least you admit things are better under Chavez…but Chavez has no ‘cronies’ Lie 1…nor has he been siphoning off money for them…Lie 2. And you prove it by not posting any evidence…If it was true, the US media would be all over that story!

    The US media reports virtually nothing about Venezuela at all. They certainly wouldn’t report on something as relatively trivial as local government bureaucrats lining their pockets, which is a given in latin america from their perspective. But in any case, here’s an article from a latin american scholar who has studied the subject in detail: Coronel

    Do note that, as usual, I provide documentation to back up what I say with fact, leaving you with empty hands and ad hominems as your main form of argument.

    Me: like WHAT government propaganda?

    Here is a quote from Zulay Campos of the state education ministry:

    “We must train socially minded people to help the community, and that’s why the revolution’s socialist program is being implemented … If they attack us because we’re indoctrinating, well yes, we’re doing it, because those capitalist ideas that our young people have — and that have done so much damage to our people — must be eliminated.”

    As for the specifics of the new curriculum, they’re still writing the high school texbooks, but at the university level one report says:

    “The Associated Press recently obtained a copy of a Venezuelan university curriculum; it consisted of required readings from Karl Marx and Fidel Castro and history lessons praising the murderous revolutionary Ernesto “Che” Guevara. Elementary and high school students can probably expect something similar.

    What main analyst at the Carter Center? Still no verbatim quotes.

    Jonathan Taylor, the main statistical analyst for the assessment of the 2004 election. He retracted his statistical analysis of the election results as based on a flawed mathematical model.

    Here’s your quote:

    “I have realized my model was wrong.”

    “Therefore, the figures The Economist quoted (in an article by The Carter Center official Jennifer McCoy claiming that the August 15 recall vote was transparent) are seriously defective.”

    OAS reversed itself? Show proof it did and evidence of their analysis.

    After the OAS certified the election it issued a lengthy report which essentially contradicted its original conclusion and pointed to various areas of fraud and problems in the election. Links to the reports can be found on the OAS Website.

    Youve still ignored the abundant evidence ive posted of that other and real 2004 election fraud…The US!

    You actually haven’t posted any of this, but I’ve seen it all before, and it’s not relevant to the topic at hand.

    The problem arises when profits are made by impoverishing people….witness the way companies send their production to places like China (much in the news lately!), where wages are much less….thus robbing americans of work.

    If you impoverish people then you lose their business, so doing so makes no sense at all in a capitalist system. In fact, reducing overhead reduces prices for consumers, putting more money back in their pockets.

    And BTW, I get that you think capitalism is inherently evil, but that’s just an opinion and not supported by any evidence.

    I’m ignoring the bullshit about how the press suppressed the press or some other ridiculous thesis. The truth of the situation is obvious to anyone who looks into the subject at all. Jesus, just follow my various links to Reporters Without Borders.

    ‘Native Americans have all the legal rights of any other US citizen should they choose to exercise them.’

    Just like Black americans….

    Exactly.

    Dave: ‘They held elections in Russia when I lived there, but that didn’t make the country free’

    What do you mean by that word ‘free’?

    Look the word up if it’s so unfamiliar to you.

    Ive noticed its a festish mush used by the american far right, as in ‘Freedom House’, a group funded by the US govt whose role is to overthrow governments who dont do US bidding.

    Nice irrelevancy.

    Me: individual level? You mean the entrepreneur: the businesss owner….You see thats just the problem…capitalism is concerned with maximising profits…to do so one method is to mi imise costs….one of which is workers pay…Hence the hatred they show of the minimum wage.

    The market in the US has set a minimum wage higher than the one set by the government and no one rational is complaining about it. Capitalism is a simple, natural system which addresses the needs of everyone involved in a pretty equitable way. It’s an equilibrium. Your workers are the consumers. If workers can’t afford product then companies don’t make profits. It all fits together.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Before she starts getting attacked, let me confirm that Julia is indeed posting from inside Venezuela, also a cable subscriber and that’s all the info I feel safe providing here. Oh, and she’s not posting from the same computer as any of our previous Venezualan participants.

    But what she IS doing is telling us the SAME story as the other Venezualans and Venezualan expats commenting here, which directly contradicts what Moonraven and Brian and the other stooges are saying about the Chavez regime.

    I think it’s telling that not one actual Venezuelan has appeared here to defend Chavez.

    Ok, now feel free to accuse her of being a clone or of lying or of being some colonialist agent. But the fact is that anyone with even half a brain can see the obvious truth by now.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But as you well know, Dave, someone’s motives are not grounds for banning them, so once again your argument makes no sense.

    Christopher, I realize that you don’t understand this, but as Politics editor part of my role is to foster and encourage discussion in the politics section. That is what makes this section unique and what keeps users coming back and participating. There are damned few non-partisan political discussion sites which attract substantial audiences and my purpose is to preserve this as one where meaningful exchange of ideas can take place.

    In that context, Moonraven’s motivations DO in fact matter to me, because her stated intent is to interfere with that process of civil discourse and render discussion here uncivil and ultimately shout down and silence anyone who disagrees with her. That is directly at counter-purposes to the basic mandate of the Politics section, so it is absolutely and exactly why she should be banned.

    If you think I’m being a lunatic primadonna in holding this view – as you seem to think about everything I believe – then ask Eric Olsen or put the issue to the entire body of editors and see if they agree with me.

    Furthermore, both JOM and Arch have said on more than one occasion that they keep coming back to BC because of its leftist bias, so you are factually wrong as well.

    Clearly you don’t understand. It’s fine if they come here to argue with leftists, so long as they are arguing topically and not engaging in personal attacks and nothing but personal attacks. Contentiousness is fine and spices up what is ultimately supposed to be civil discourse. Just coming to harass people and contribute nothing is not acceptable.

    All that’s left is your selective and subjective prejudice against people from certain parts of the political spectrum, a fact you are apparently incapable of recognising.

    Sorry, Christopher, this is just Bullshit. There are plenty of hardcore leftists here who I get along with just fine as individuals because they engage in civil discourse. I may have a political philosophy I adhere to and I may have a political philosophy which I oppose, but those are contesting ideas. I am capable of separating the ideas from the people who support them. If those people express their views coherently, honestly and without being disruptive then I’m going to give them all the respect which they deserve. I’m not unreasonable to expect the same courtesy in return.

    It’s that differentiation between individuals and their beliefs which makes civil discourse possible in a non-partisan environment.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Julia, I am right and you are not an impoverished peasant whose standard of living is being improved thanks to the Chavez government.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I believe Julia made the point earlier that the standard of living of the peasants isn’t actually improving noticably. You might want to read her first comment.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Dave #162 “I think it’s telling that not one actual Venezuelan has appeared here to defend Chavez.”

    It’s telling that right now Chavez is feeding the poor and giving them healthcare (and giving heating oil to poor people in the USA). Computers to hook up to Blogcritics will come later.

    The Venezuelans that come here whining about Chavez are probably pissed because they can’t afford a bigger flat screen monitor.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, as far as I can tell you don’t realise anything, you just keep wandering up and down the same old rut, the boundaries of which were laid out in the 1960s.

    Your only response to my perspective is that I don’t understand, like your all too predictable views had any mystery to them.

    If you could actually take those tainted filters off your mindset, you’d notice that moonraven does make plenty of debating points in addition to her pottymouth antics. All those get deleted, just as your own excesses do, so just the nub remains.

    I don’t agree with much of either of you, but she has just as much right to make her points as anybody else. It’s simply not true that she contributes nothing.

    Getting along with people has nothing at all to do with your prejudice against certain political perspectives, so once again your argument is pointless.

    So is your comment “I am capable of separating the ideas from the people who support them. If those people express their views coherently, honestly and without being disruptive then I’m going to give them all the respect which they deserve. I’m not unreasonable to expect the same courtesy in return.

    It’s that differentiation between individuals and their beliefs which makes civil discourse possible in a non-partisan environment.”

    That’s just you trotting out a set of ideas which you completely fail to live up to on a daily basis, once again proving the delusions which blind you. You’re rude, condescending and utterly unwelcoming to far too many people, which is why your own comments get edited with regularity too.

    Your problem is that your idealised view of yourself and the person you actually are can not easily be reconciled.

    You’re just as full of human frailty and weakness as everybody else which is why you find moonraven disruptive but JOM and Arch merely contentious.

  • bliffle

    I assume that this Chavez noise is a red herring to coverup the important news, like Mukasey, who refuses to condemn torture outright, and the hundreds of billions Bush demands to continue his failed vanity war.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    If there’s anyone who comes to BC solely to be disruptive, it’s JustOneMan. His puerile droolings are occasionally fun to wipe up but contribute nothing meaningful. His idea of debate is to repeat variations on ‘liberalism is a mental disorder’ like a stuck record.

    On the other hand there’s Arch. For all that his views are utterly repugnant, he lapses too frequently into personal insult and he has no sense of humour, I do respect his ability and willingness to defend his position articulately and vigorously.

  • bliffle

    If Nalle maintains that MRs purpose is to sow discord, then, using the same privilege, I maintain that Nalles purpose is to divert attention from the real and important issues facing the USA and the electorate by dragging red herrings across the trail. Like this endless discourse about Hugo Chavez.

    Both Iraq and the US economy are more important than Chavez.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    If anyone wonders who I am, here see my blog. Everything you need to know about me, and that I feel safe to provide (because bloggers has been threatened too many times, specially the ones who write in english) is in there. About the comment 166 , please take a look at this blog, it is written from inside the barrios (poor areas) and sometimes even the opposition is afraid of their words. If you dont know spanish, too bad, you wont realize how they ask to the government to solve primary needs instead of writting a new constitution; but you can scroll down and see the pics of their living conditions and the attempts of reconciliation that the student movement its providing between the communities.
    As you can see, not only the rich ones complains about Chavez, although I must say, every person who wants a flat screen tv has the right to complain about Chavez, even if they can afford it. Now, honestly, I cant affort one of those, but I have better life conditions that most of the Venezuelan population.
    Beyond the discussions about life conditions, the lose of political freedom its real, it doesnt even matter how much life conditions improve if the people is not going to be able to say what they think about the public policies.
    You can keep talking about class fights and believing all my goverment propaganda. Let just hope that the victims of this regime dont slap you in the face.
    Would you like to finish your university career and not be able to find a job? Would you like to go to the supermarket and not find what you want? Would you like to be forced to wear a red t-shirt in order to get the benefits from the government policies?
    As I said earlier, I could go on and on with this. But I think that once again, I made my point clear.

  • moonraven

    Nalle, The Red Queen, continues to scream Off with Moonraven’s head becayuse YET AGAIN I backed him to the wall and shot his knees off.

    Ban Moonraven. But write articles about the topic of Don’t violate RCTV’s right to freely express hatred of non-whites and to call for the murder of the president of Venezuela. Treason is fine. Sedition is good, too.

    You are so fucked up Nalle that even Chris, not exactly known for his psychological skills, is right about you.

    As for Julia the 23 year old:

    1. When Chavez took power she was all of 14 years old. So she is hardly qualified to give us an eyewitness documentation of the massacre called the Caracazo of 1989–when she was at most 5 years old–or any of the other terrible pre-Chavez incidents there. She relies on the propaganda of the oligarch media for her views.

    2. She said it all when she said that the shantytowns barrios LOOK THE SAME as they did before Chavez took power. She does not live anywhere near them, obviously. And she has never visited one. I HAVE. And I saw the free clinics and the soup kitchens (even ate in one) and the produce markets and the mercales with half-price food and the community centers and new schools and people owning their own homes and having them replaced with ones in good condition. It-s her city, but she is scared to go to 23 de enero? Credibility, zero and going doooooown.

    3. So what is this middle class young woman doing whining about the scarcity of black beans? I stay in the Candelaria, a working class Caracas neighborhood, and is overflowing with foodswtuffs of all kinds. They place is even crammed with street sellers of foodstuffs! Why is it that I can buy black beans or any fruit or vegetable or staple by the barrellsful in the Candelaria and she can’t find them in Chacao? Have they been relegated to the list of poor food for poor people and unobtainable in the neighborhoods where Brie cheese is the food of choice?

    4. I saw the demographic charts in the newspaper in Caracas in June for the increase in the purchases of new cars. I also saw the Hummers in Altamira. That is NOT a chavista neighborhood–in fact there have many incidents of chavistas being shot at there–although I have not heard of any of those lately. Don’t try to shit ME with your lies about how only chavistas are bying new cars. It’s the oligarchs and the middle class who are buying the majority of the new cars.

    5. Problems with public safety in Caracas? Welcome to Latin America, sweetie pie. I live in the Mexican state that until just this year had been the kidnapping capital of the country for at least 15 years.

    Public safety is one of the biggest problems all over Latin America. Why?

    The policepersons do not get paid enough to live on. They supplement a wage of on the average less than 300 dollars a months by bribes, kick backs, kidnapping folks they are supposed to protect, protecting narcotraficantes, etc etc etc.

    I have never had a problem in Latin America except in Quito, Ecuador, where I was robbed at gunpoint in an Internet cafe. I spent a lot of time in Mexico City and a fair amount in Caracas without incident. I also take reasonable precautions and don’t loiok like a good victim–despite my long strawberry blond hair.

    If public safety were ONLY a problem in Venezuela, I would definitely pause and criticize the Chavez government. But it just is not the case–Venezuela is the norm, not the exception–especially compared to Colombia and Mexico.

    The bottom line is, under Chavez dramatic improvements have made in ALL areas with the exception of only a little improvement in these BIG TWO BUGABOOS: Corruption and Public Safty.

    YOu can either stop whining and add your grain of sand by doing something positive for your country.

    Or move to Miami with the rest of the whiners.

    You will get no sympathy from me. NONE.

    Dave Nalle “certifying” a poster as posting from inside Venezuela is like the fox guarding the henhouse–as so far as I know HE is the one who has been caught on this site posting clones–and more than once.

    And why should somebody from Venezuela have any mmore credibility than ME? I am a specialist on Latin America.

    None of the supposed venezolanos are specialists on Latin America.

    Would you believe Dave Nalle as the EXPERT in US politics?

    Even the Comments Editor would not do that–and he is a Brit.

    Let’s have a little sanity here. And a grain of common sense.

    Most of the folks living in the US don’t even know what’s happening in their neighborhood–much less in their country.

    THat’s why it is in the toilet waiting to be flushed.

  • moonraven

    Let’s see now if Nalle jumps on Julia’s ass because she didn’t post a live link, bust posted live bait instead.

    The fact that her blog is called antipatriotic says it all.

    She hates her country. Which is not the same as hating Chavez.

    I hate the US. But I got my wings flapping and got the fuck out of there. I live someplace else.

    Julia, opn the other hand, is foulilng her own nest and expecting pats on her back for that.

    Sorry, I won’t go there.

    She admits to being part of the privileged economic group, but wants it all. When wealth is limited, tootsie wootsie, if you get it all–somebody else gets nothing.

    Get off your little ass and do something. If you have that university degree and can’t get a job, find someone like me to TEACH YOU HOW TO WRITE A CV AND HOW TO INTERVIEW.

    The situation for university in graduates in Mexico is way more than alarming. I have helped a number of folks get jobs in an intensely competitive market.

    You do not DESERVE a job until you stop that goddamn WHINING and get your ass in gear.

    You are even worse than my previous post’s assessment of you.

    No more benefit of the doubt from this bird.

  • Clavos

    “Dave #162 “I think it’s telling that not one actual Venezuelan has appeared here to defend Chavez.”

    It’s telling that right now Chavez is feeding the poor and giving them healthcare (and giving heating oil to poor people in the USA). Computers to hook up to Blogcritics will come later.

    The Venezuelans that come here whining about Chavez are probably pissed because they can’t afford a bigger flat screen monitor.”

    Non-responsive to the statement quoted.

    According to the Venezuelans who have posted here, Chavez is only claiming to feed the poor and give them health care, not actually doing so in any meaningful way.

    Reliable news reports, quoted on these threads by myself and others, indicate that there are, in fact, severe shortages of staples in the government-run food stores located in poor neighborhoods.

    These reports are confirmed by actual residents of Venezuela posting here and in numerous other sites on the internet.

    Once again, lapdog (good moniker, that!) is long on rhetoric and short on sense.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Re. #167. How about this, Christopher. I’ll continue to try to do my honest best within my obvious limitations to promote discussion and useful exchange of ideas here on BC, and we’ll see how it goes. As always, I appreciate your efforts to provide me with collegial support.

    Dave

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    “1. When Chavez took power she was all of 14 years old. So she is hardly qualified to give us an eyewitness documentation of the massacre called the Caracazo of 1989–when she was at most 5 years old–or any of the other terrible pre-Chavez incidents there. She relies on the propaganda of the oligarch media for her views”.-> True, I was 5 years old when the Caracazo happened two weeks without going to school and my mom worried because she couldnt find any food to feed her 4 children. I might not remember much, but you cant tell I wasnt there, and I have heard a lot of stories from my parents and others by growing up here. I know about the killings and the human rights violations. I was 8 when Chavez leaded a coup attempt on 1992, and a few months later there was another. I lived near the army airport back then and we had to refugee inside a small bathroom, while the military used our garden as a place to hide and you could hear the gunshots just everywhere. I wasn’t able to sleep for months after that.
    .
    For your information, I have been in many shanty towns, both rural and urban, many communities of La Vega and Antímano. Before and after chavez, mainly because of volunteer work with the school and then with the university. Dont pretend to tell me I dont know.
    .
    So why we dont just put all the supermarkets of the middle class empty? good idea… When was the last time you put a foot in La Candelaria? and where did you saw the black beans: oh yes, at the streets and over priced.
    .
    Don’t you dare to call me “supossed Venezuelan” and taking away my nationality from me. This is an act of open disrespect. I have my doubts on an specialist on Latin America who is so ideologically commited and talks on non objective terms. For me this is the voice of a dreamer, not the voice of an expert. An expert who refuses to hear the people he considers hes an expert of? And even more, an expert who claims to have all the credibility on this issue. No, an expert would accept different ideas and would be humble enough to say that he/she doesnt have the last word on all issues, an expert would realize that the more you learn, the less you know.
    .
    A dreamer, thats all you are. A dreamer with an ego trouble. Let us hope, once again, that a situation like this does not come to your life. Oh and you can be as expert as you want to. But you are not Venezuelan or are you going to steal my ID because I disagree with the government?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Both Iraq and the US economy are more important than Chavez.

    Actually, I agree with you, bliffle. Taken individually both of those subjects are far more important than Hugo Chavez. I think that in the larger, long-term picture Chavez means a lot more than most people realize right now, but he probably is getting more attention than he deserves on his own merits.

    But frankly, it IS easier to write about Chavez because it’s so cut and dried. The facts are there, easy to lay out and hard to dispute. It does bring MR and her coterie running, but since they can’t assail the facts it just keeps them bashing their heads against a brick wall and that makes it very appealing, if a bit lazy.

    However, to be fair, I have written extensively on the US economy and no one seemed nearly as interested as they are in Chavez. Here this article has 175 responses in a few days while my rather good article on the mortgage crisis got all of FOUR comments, two of them from me. I put a hell of a lot more work and thought into that article than I did into this one, and no one seemed very interested, including you.

    And you bring up Mukasey. Again, I wrote on the Mukasey appointment in a nice little article about a month ago which did make it to 100 comments, but then got sidetracked by some sort of discussion of Anthropology and Gonzo going berserk with his usual frustration that I’m too easy on Bush. As I recall you commented once early on and then disappeared.

    But seriously, if you want more coverage of this stuff, put your writing where your complaints are and write an article for BC yourself. I know you’re articulate enough to do it. Or suggest topics to me and I’ll try to cover them as best I can and you can at least show up to disagree.

    Dave

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    The fact that her blog is called antipatriotic says it all.

    She hates her country. Which is not the same as hating Chavez.”
    Its kind of fun when people make statements without knowing. From my blog (entry called “8th month versary”:)

    “Many people have asked me why my URL addresses is “antipatrioticvenezuelan”. First, to call myself antipatriotic is a reference to the way the president – and therefore the government and all its followers – have been rejecting in the speech a whole group of the Venezuelan society: the traditional middle and high class calling them “oligarcas” (oligarchs), “escuálidos” (can’t think of a translation right now) and even “traitors” and counter- revolutionaries; therefore, not “real venezuelans”. This has created unnecessary stereotypes and has been the seed of a very strong hate (it has been said that its class and race based) between Venezuelans, dividing the country on two irreconcilable sides that each one of them is accused of being “antipatriotic” if it doesn’t support what the other follows. Putting “antipatriotic” as my URL address was my way to reflect the way the most radical revolutionaries see the people like me, and to stand against it. I started to dislike patriotism as an ideology that could lead to ethnocentrism and totalitarian views on the reality among other grave consequences. This might be considered by the readers as extreme. And it is. But the readers might understand as well (not necessarily support it) the reasons why I hold such a stance”.
    .
    You are doing exactly what the people from the goverment do: to take the country and the nationality away from the ones who disagree. I do love my country and I dont want to move to Miami or anywhere else. And because I love my country I have been fighting against the government since 2002,studying a lot the history and the development of my country and writting about it anywhere I can. I dont consider myself an expert, I dont hold the “right” opinion. Im just holding a point of view that should be considered and Im humble enough to admit that is not the only one.

  • brian

    Julie…where do you live in Caracas? In the rich whiet suburbs? Hmmm Are u in the barrios? No, then your views are as dictorted by your upbringing as those of Pedro Carmona…
    Being inside venezuela means nothing….so are the likes of the coup masters.

  • brian

    Julia, the people of venesuela have voted ovewhelming for chavez and his govt time and again…Now its democratic to acknowledge this. Your problem is that your ethnic group..the white power elite cant win democraticaly because most of venezuela is coloured and poor…and so will vote for the sport of policies Chavez has been implementing. SO if you want to return to power, your people will need to make the same policies…Will they? Or will you impoverish the people once again?

  • brian

    Dave: ‘But frankly, it IS easier to write about Chavez because it’s so cut and dried. ‘

    Its easy for you to write about chavez, because you cant invent whatever you like on this site….nothing youve written so far has been backed by any evidence…why not try that approach, Dave…

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    If I give my address I would put myself on danger. I live in a middle class area and as most middle class areas in Caracas its located next to a barrio. Brian, where do you live? in a shanty rancho (poor house) or in a nice apparment with Internet conection? I guess you are a Venezuelan from Petare and thats why you discourage the opinions or the middle class, right? Or are you not middle class yourself?. So what do you sugest? to kill all the members of the middle class because their views are distorted? to ignore a minority? What an example of democracy you are just given. Stop using ad hominem arguments, and consider my opinions in their own value, or are you afraid of what my words might reveal?. All Venezuelans should have equal rights to be listened. And I will fight for those rights.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    White ethnic groups? Omg, cant believe how distorted you are and how little you know about my country… theres white people in all social classes so as people with darker skin, we dont have the racial situation that the US for example might have. And not all the elections (or should I say reelections?) that have claim Chavez as the winner have been clean. And Im not only talking of the discussed 2004 elections, Im talking also about the elections of 1999 when a constitution was approved and new elections settled while a major tragedy (the vargas tragedy, a huge flood) had the venezuelans under other logical concerns. Your efforts to reduce the trouble to a class or race issue only talks about your lack of knowledge of my country and your disability to see beyond my government’s propaganda.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    First off, I think it’s great that Julia has the blogging experience to come here and not be intimidated by the chavista stooges. Keep pushing the truth Julia. People are out here listening.

    Now, Brian…

    Its easy for you to write about chavez, because you cant invent whatever you like on this site….nothing youve written so far has been backed by any evidence…why not try that approach, Dave…

    Why don’t you point out where I’ve said anything that I haven’t been able to back up factually, Brian?

    And then, since you asked Julia where she lived, why don’t you tell us where you live? Any chance you live in a country where it’s impossible to get internet access without direct approval of a communist dictatorship rated in the bottom 20 on every human rights list? Maybe one of those countries where the only way you could get on the internet at all is as a paid government shill, so why don’t you come clean with us.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Julia:

    Shut your immature mouth and listen. I could be your grandmother. Show ME some respect here.

    I was right about your age. You were 5 when a PREVIOUS president created the trauma of the Caracazo. Do NOT try to blame that on Hugo Chavez.

    I was right about where you live.

    I was right about your social/economic class.

    Yet you tell me I know nothing about Latin America???!!!!

    I have you nailed down so clearly that I could even draw a picture of you.

    That’s how much I know about Latin America.

    I was last in the Candelaria when I spent the month of June there. There were no shortages of food. I was there to see what happened after the RCTV license was not renewed. I saw. I saw evverything. I am bilingual English/Spanish and a writer in both languages. I also teach university level classes in both languages. I did not buy black beans on the street at big prices. There is not much overpriced food in the Candelaris becausae it is a WORKING CLASS sector.

    There were shortages of clorox and a few other non-food products. Because, in the maiin, they were imported–not produced in Venezuela. The shortages meant that sometimes you had to wait all of TWO days.

    Are you such a princess that you can’t wait two days?

    Where I live in Mexico–and I am not whining because I CHOOSE to live there and am more than happy–we have no supermarkets as it is a small village–which is great as I do NOT shop at supermarkets if I can possibly avoid them–and we cook our meals based on what is available and FRESH.

    That is the healthiest way to eat. Every weekend I and the 4 children of the family I live with cook together from our mercado. The best food in our town is at our house on Sunday afternoon.

    I repeat: Grow up and stop whining. If the black beans are not available–and or are not fresh–cook another bean or cook rice.

    The high end restaurants all charge big prices because they have FRESH, LOCAL, IN SEASON ingredients.

    You can have any opinion that you want, Julie–but let me give you some advice: Folks whose opinions do not coincide with reality do not have easy lives. They don’t get hired for good jobs because people think they are nuts. They are also not perceived as being trustworthy.

    You are very correct in that I am a dreamer–in the model of John Lennon but with a much bigger menu of skills to offer the planet.

    I am a dreamer who actualizes my dreams, and I help many other people actualize theirs. My kind of dreamers: Change Makers.

    I am able to be a dreamer and get paid for it–well paid–paid enough that I can help a lot of folks without being paid.

    I am a person who, when I VOLUNTEER have well-devloped SKILLS to offer.

    You were a volunteer because social service is required by your school. If you had not done it you would not have received your diploma.

    That is a requirement in school programs all over Latin America–because the folks like me who design those school programs HOPE that when you see how folks less privileged than you live that you will have enough sense of community to help others AFTER you complete your social service requirement.

    Dreamers like us are realistic enough, however, to know that most of you privileged little snots (fresas is the term we use in Mexico) will just go through the motions, pay to get out of doing it, or do it and never look back.

    You need a dose of reality, little sister. And you need to cut out the paranoid shit–like accusing me of stealing your identity in Internet.

    What could I–who choose the people and not the products in the mall–want with your pathetic identity?

    You need to start growing an identity that makes you a useful member of the People of Planet Earth.

  • Clavos

    No le hagas caso a moonraven, Julia.

    Te tiene miedo porque dices la verdad.

    Don’t let moonraven intimidate you. Just keep posting what you (and we) know to be the truth.

    The world is listening, and those who speak the truth will win in the end.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    So now you are putting your age as an argument to take credit from my opinions?. I can only laugh of your lameless pretensions. You are old, you are a well paid expert – Now I understand why do you like Chavez this much, what an amazing ego you have!
    So if you are getting well paid, means you are priviledged, whats your right to speak in the name of the less priviledged? Are you a godess or something?
    June… try to come now in october and take a walk through La Candelaria and see what you can find. Ok I can cook rice or any other bean. But whats your word on milk shortages?
    I havent ever talk before with someone from the academy who managed such a language. If you are going to keep insulting me, and make arguments ad hominem join a political party but dont do it in the name of your “expertice” … thats a falacy.
    Yes, I’m young, a lot younger than you, I have the oportunity to see the world with new eyes and to learn as much as I can from others. I’m glad I got the chance to discuss with you, you have just become the role model of something I never want to be.
    Your assumptions on my class and where I live can be easily done by reading my blog. Even more, I revealed all of them here. So it doesnt take an expert to know that. So please, save your ego-
    And if you are such a great woman, expert and all, why you do even feel the need to discuss and even more, insult a 22 year old niña fresa? (yep, 22, I’ll be 23 next month).
    I will not tolerate another insult from yours. Talk to me in a respectful language. Discuss in a respectful language.

  • moonraven

    Which is why this bird always wins.

    And not through intimidation.

    That was libertarian Robert J. Ringer and that was 1978.

    The world, actually is NOT listening. And that is both the truth and the precise problem.

    Folks are too busy shopping.

    And I have NEVER seen more dedicated shoppers than the venezolanos–not even in the US.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    You are right clavos, I better leave this as the last comment in response to her threats. Some people knows, even if they are not the majority, and thats enough for me.

    Tienes razón clavos, mejor dejo este como mi último comentario en respuesta a los suyos. Algunas personas saben, no importa si no son la minoría. Y eso me basta.

  • moonraven

    Julia,

    This is my last comment to you.

    I “guessed” all that data and posted it before you posted your blog. I did not read your blog.

    I live with the poor people of Mexico. I formed a theater group so that they can express their voice artistically. I helped them form an agricultural association so that they can make enough money to feed their families and they don’t have to risk their lives crossing the border to Arizona to clean toilets of fat gringos. I teach poor students – many for whom Spanish is their second language because they are from the indigenous groups. I am an indigenous person myself from the MOhawk Nation, so I share that experience. I also teach poor teachers.

    Yes, I am paid well for many of the things I do – not because I was privileged but because I have sought-after skills. And I taught myself those skills. What skills do YOU have?

    From the end of June to the end of October the world did not go to hell in a handbasket in Caracas. Food did not disappear from the shelves. Nor from the street vendors. Nor from anywhere else.

    And if it did? See it as an opportunity. Are you fat? Lose weight. We have a saying in English: If life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Life is not fair. The world is not perfect. There is no free lunch.
    Nobody owes you anything. That’s reality, baby. Grow up and face it.

    Whining is not the path to wisdom, enlightenment, a good job, sainthood, or wealth.

    It’s YOUR problem that academics did not talk to you with my language. They should have. They would have been doing you the biggest favor in your educational experience. This conversation is over.

  • moonraven

    It’s CON eso me basta.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    To Dave. I would like to know if theres a posibility for me to write a guest article here or at some other page, since not all commenters wants to read my blog before making their stances on myself and my current situation.
    I don’t have an academic degree just yet, Im currently working on my thesis, plus my english skills are very limited so I know that this couple of issues might work against my desire of writing an article.
    I can find someone here able to help me with the english grammar and have an article ready in about two weeks or so and this article could be about Venezuelan life or routine, the upcoming constitutional reform, or the student movement or any other topic related to my country that I know enough of, in order to bring something new to the table.
    If theres no posibility of doing that, dont worry, I perfectly understand it and I will keep posting on the comments section only when I feel that its needed.
    Regards

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Julia, it would be great to have you reporting first-hand from Venezuela. I’m the head Politics Section editor and I’d be glad to work with you on cleaning up your English. It shouldn’t be that much work. We’ve got other writers for whom English is not their first language and a few whose version of English is peculiar to say the least, and we manage to get them sorted out. One of the nice things about blogcritics is that we have editors here who will work with you and it’s good experience for writing in a more structured environment.

    I’ll send you an email about getting signed up as a writer.

    Dave

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Great, its a deal then. Leave a comment in my blog with your email address and I will send you an email so you can know my address, since for safety reasons I cant openly put my email address here. Also tell me about what topics – related to my country, of course-, this page might be more interested on. And I’ll start working, thanks in advance.

  • Lapdog

    “Chavez is only claiming to feed the poor and give them health care, not actually doing so in any meaningful way.”

    Yes Clavos, and he’s only claiming to send heating oil to the poor in the US.

    And the poor in the US are only claiming to burn it.

    You need a nap!

  • STM

    Nalle: “English is not their first language and a few whose version of English is peculiar to say the least.”

    Do I detect a dig, here Dave?? Into which of these categories does Australian-English fall? (and no, it’s not an oxymoron)

    Remember, to us, your version of English looks even more bizarre, what with the phonetic spellings, archaic use of Z in words like civilisation, and what have you.

    But yes, I know Strine must seem like a type of pidgin to you blokes.

  • Clavos

    Can anyone translate Stan’s last comment for me? :>)

  • moonraven

    It will be lots of fun to have a wannabe escualido posting articles on this site!

    Moonraven was so generous to this young woman whose first language is Spanish that she did not make a single criticism of her English, and only corrected her Spanish.

    (The first step to writing well in one’s second language is writing well–and with correct grammar and syntax–in one’s FIRST language.)

    You all have a great day tomorrow now. This bird will be spending the day in the clutches of American Airlines.

  • moonraven

    If other wannabe escualidos frequent this site, please say hello to the ersatz student leader, Stalin Gonzales.

    Stalin–how absolutely apt is the name of that professional student agitator!

    Me da risa y asco a la vez.

  • Clavos

    “Me da risa y asco a la vez.”

    Como tu a nos….

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Oops. Can’t send you an email, Julia. No email address on your blog. Email me from the address on the main politics page and I’ll help get you set up.

    Dave

  • REMF

    “The world is listening, and those who speak the truth will win in the end.”
    – Clavos

    Unless of course it’s Col. Hackworth on Calley’s guilt, or the 700 at Dannelly AFB who didn’t see Bush in ’72…

  • REMF

    brian;
    I’m curious, are you a fellow Montanan?

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Blogcritics is open to anybody who wants to write for it as it is essentially a social network of people who love to write.

    Anybody, including Miss Julia, can get in contact with the publisher, Eric Olsen, by sending him an email. It is all explained very clearly in his article Are You a Blogcritic? We like people to reach out to us as it indicates some degree of motivation and it is obviously not possible to provide extended handholding to a community of over 2,300 writers.

    There are no barriers to entry in terms of what topics can be addressed, apart from the obviously criminal or similar, but we do like a certain basic competency in writing ability.

    Dave’s offer of help is unprecedented in its generosity and in no way shaped by his eagerness to have another voice of which he approves writing for the site. I think. He is, after all, the very epitome of even-handedness and, with a humility worthy of respect, has very recently said “I’ll continue to try to do my honest best within my obvious limitations to promote discussion and useful exchange of ideas here on BC”.

    Of course he did follow that noble aspiration with a sly dig at me for not offering him “collegial support”, despite the fact I have made it clear to him many times that my commitment is to the site and the user community. Go figure.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘I believe Julia made the point earlier that the standard of living of the peasants isn’t actually improving noticably. You might want to read her first comment.’

    But what does she care about peasants? And why should anyone beyond u believe her, when she like you are engaged in demonisation of Chavez? Let her prove her claims. AS ive already shown the elites thru their media have been lying about Chavez.

  • brian

    Julia: ‘If I give my address I would put myself on danger. I live in a middle class area and as most middle class areas in Caracas its located next to a barrio. Brian, where do you live? in a shanty rancho (poor house) or in a nice apparment with Internet conection? I guess you are a Venezuelan from Petare and thats why you discourage the opinions or the middle class, right? Or are you not middle class yourself?. So what do you sugest? to kill all the members of the middle class because their views are distorted? to ignore a minority? What an example of democracy you are just given. Stop using ad hominem arguments, and consider my opinions in their own value, or are you afraid of what my words might reveal?. All Venezuelans should have equal rights to be listened. And I will fight for those rights. ‘

    Me: well, julia, why are u now concerned about equal rights…where were you before defending equa rights for all venezuelans? Why have their ben multitudes living miseravly in barrios at all? Before Chavez came along, the barrio dwellers were ignored by your middle class . THATS why they voted for Chavez.

    Your paranoia is absurd. At best your class is reaping what is has sowed in its medievel class warfare against the poor.
    Noone is suggesting to kill anyone…but during the coup, thats just what your people did…shoot into the crowds with sniper fire and blamed it on Chavistas…as shown in The Revolution Will Not be Televised…
    The solution for you is to work with the government to improve the lives of your fellow citizens.

  • brian

    ‘If I give my address I would put myself on danger’

    i dont need your address julia, and you dont need yoru paranoia…I just needed to know what class you belong to…now i know.
    If you live in such fear, it must be because you or your class did something to deserve it. Do you hate the people in the barrios or just fear them? And why do you fear them?

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Why don’t you point out where I’ve said anything that I haven’t been able to back up factually, Brian?’

    what facts have you used for your absurd claims? Youve still not demonstrated that cult of personality..ie youve not shown Hugo put up all those pictures or rhat they indicate a cult of personality. All they would show is he is popular with the masses…unlike your white elites.

    Dave:’ Any chance you live in a country where it’s impossible to get internet access without direct approval of a communist dictatorship rated in the bottom 20 on every human rights list? ‘

    Me: more absurdities from the master…what countries is it impossible to get internet access? As for human rights…coming from an american whose country has massacred millions of people, overthrown democratically elected govts(efrom haiti to Chile), aided dictators around the world, adn engaged in torture of foreign citizens, you are in no position to tell me about human rights.

  • brian

    Julia:’we dont have the racial situation that the US for example might have’

    Then why do we find the following:

    ‘”There is racism here,” Chávez remarked. “It used to be more hidden and now it is more open.” Chávez’s opponents, who argue that racism does not exist in the country, charged that the president exploits the race card for political gain. According to Fletcher, the Chávez opposition “has attacked him [Chávez] using racist language and imagery which would be totally unacceptable in public discourse in the USA.” The Venezuelan elite has used racial slurs to taint Chávez, denouncing him as a black monkey. According to author Tariq Ali, “A puppet show to this effect with a monkey playing Chávez was even organized at the U.S. Embassy in Caracas. But Colin Powell was not amused and the Ambassador was compelled to issue an apology.” The attacks continued when Venezuelan media commentators referred to the Minister of Education, Aristobulo Isturiz, who is black, as “a monkey” and “an ape.” Meanwhile, analysts have remarked upon the racial undertones of political conflict in Chávez’s Venezuela. “Class and skin color differences,” remarks Wilpert, “clearly correlate very highly at demonstrations, such that the darker skinned (and presumably lower class) support the Chávez government and the lighter skinned (and presumably middle and upper class) oppose the Chávez government.” ‘
    CounterPunch

    Even Colin Powell was not amused…yet you claim there is no racism like in america. Clearly you do, and you are trying to shove it under a penthouse carpet.

  • brian

    ‘The Venezuelans that come here whining about Chavez are probably pissed because they can’t afford a bigger flat screen monitor.’

    No, they are P’d because they have lost the power in a dmeocracy where the majority are pooir and dark skinned; they assumed this right to ruke was an inherited right..like their skin colour..and that darker skin venezuelans are not fit to lead.

  • brian

    Lets see the oil power elite do this:

    Venezuela to write off Guyana debt Stuart Munckton 19 October 2007

    On October 3 Caribbean Net News reported that the South American nation Guyana, which borders Venezuela to its west, will soon benefit from a US$12.5 million debt write-off by Venezuela under an agreement expected to be finalised in the near future.

    The article reported that the issue was first raised by Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez during an official visit in 2004, when Chavez said Venezuela would be willing to cancel all of the much smaller nation’s outstanding debt to Venezuela.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Here I am, writing to a blinds dance all over again. Now I want to make clear that I wont answer to Moonrave comments as long as she keeps with an insultive behaviour and a shown unability of supporting her arguments without landing into ad hominem falacies.
    .
    Now, I will respond to the comments made by Brian. First of all, as Moonraven said it, I was only 14 when Chavez was first elected. Are you going to blame a 14 year old of the past mistakes?. My past, my present, and unfortunately my future are surrounded by Mr Chavez figure and his revolution. Although I can notice differences between the life before Chavez, the life in the early years of Chavez government and the life now, with the revolution more and more established.
    .
    You quoted the famous documentary “The revolution not be televised”. Have you read or look for alternative visions to the one that document established? This document is just another piece of pure propaganda. The Venezuelans are quite used to it by now, and the ones who were there, this commenter included, cannot be fooled. You can call the opposition members “coupers” as much as you want, and I’m agree with you on what the Carmona decree meant towards the death of the institutions and the democracy. But the one who has overly used the insult “coupers”- my president – was the first man to promote and lead a coup on several decades (04-04-1992, the coup before that one was in the 50’s, go figure). And no matter how questioned the political system was back then, this was one bloddy coup and since this regime has justify now this coup, theres no justice for the victims of those events whats so ever.
    .
    I’m truly amazed by the way some commenters just repeat my government’s speech. Theres a whole world behind my government’ speech, my government vision of the world, my government version of history past or recent. And its quite sad that some people, even abroad, with no more interest on my country that the study of the situation whats so ever, refuse to approach to alternative versions and refuse to question my government side.
    .
    Working with my government in order to improve Venezuelan lives sounds like a nice idea. But things are just not that easy. For working with my government you must sacrifice your ideas first under the risk of losing your job. The people who signed against the government in order to ask for a recall where put in a list called the “Tascon list” and if you are in the Tascon list you cannot work for the government or get any benefits from its policies that should be granted for any Venezuelan that needs them. So I’m not going to shut up my mouth, wear a red t-shirt, and scream “Patria, Socialismo o muerte” (“Fatherland, socialism or death”) in order to work for a goverment who is more worried to stay in power that actually improve the life of their citizens.
    .
    About countries where internet access is not granted, you might take Cuba for example. To even have a computer of your own its ilegal and only the public offices carefully watched by the government have internet access. So you can even have a mail account, but it has to be the same email account that the whole office has so that everyone can read your emails. Of course there are always ways to fool these rules and several consequences if they are discovered. Other examples of similiar restrictions (although not as strong as Cuba) are North Korea and China.

  • Clavos

    With each succeeding comment, especially those directed to Julia, ‘brian” tips his hand that he is in fact a shill for the chavista government.

    “AS ive already shown the elites thru their media have been lying about Chavez.

    brian sez:

    “AS ive already shown the elites thru their media have been lying about Chavez.”

    You haven’t “shown” shit, brian. All you’ve done is spout chavista (and left wing) propaganda like a good little partisan.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Oh you are quoting Chavez to make racism evident? Please use a more objective source, because my president will look for any figure in his speech – real or not – that allows him to gain more support abroad. And as I can see, its clearly working

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But what does she care about peasants?

    Brian, what do YOU care about peasants in Venezuela when you live thousands of miles away in a country where the peasants are even more oppressed than they are in Venezuela?

    And why should anyone beyond u believe her, when she like you are engaged in demonisation of Chavez? Let her prove her claims.

    Brian, she’s an eyewitness source. She IS proof.

    Dave: ‘Why don’t you point out where I’ve said anything that I haven’t been able to back up factually, Brian?’

    what facts have you used for your absurd claims?

    Every one of my factual claims is linked to a source, Brian. Go read them.

    Youve still not demonstrated that cult of personality..ie youve not shown Hugo put up all those pictures or rhat they indicate a cult of personality. All they would show is he is popular with the masses…unlike your white elites.

    The existence of the posters is proof of the cult of personality, whether put up by the government – as some clearly were – or painted by the people as some may have been. Do you deny the existence of the images I provided ample examples of?

    what countries is it impossible to get internet access?

    It’s true in many countries where the internet is entirely controlled by the state. In those countries the only people with access to the web are professional shills sent out on the internet by the state to promote their interests and attack their enemies. They also often shill on behalf of governmets they think are sympathetic to their interests. We’ve encountered such shills on here from North Korea and China in the past.

    For example, if you were in a country like North Korea or Laos where internet is controlled by the government or else enormously expensive, only members of the ruling communist elite can afford service or an education in English for that matter, unless they are provided internet access because of employment by the government.

    No, they are P’d because they have lost the power in a dmeocracy where the majority are pooir and dark skinned; they assumed this right to ruke was an inherited right..like their skin colour..and that darker skin venezuelans are not fit to lead.

    This characterization of Venezuelans of european descent is just pure, unadulterated racism.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    It always come down to TWO issues:

    1. Racism–practiced daily on this site as clavos the swamprat calls Chavez a monkey (that’s what el mono and el chango mean for you non-spanish speakers) and others indicate that only 90 million Native Americans killed was not genocide and does not matter because they were not white.

    2. Money–money should only be accumulated as wealth by white people is the premise of almost everybody writing on this site.

    Then the really absurd shit:

    1. Nalle calling himself the defender of free speech and other rights in Venezuela–while insisting that anyone who disagrees with him here should be banned.

    2. Nalle offering to write Julia’s articles for her because she doesn’t write acceptably in English. He has had so much practice inventing venezolano and chileno posters that his computer should be ready to write the articles without his mediation.

    I think maybe my soon to be 13 year old Mexican nephew would like to write political articles here, too. He’s very smart, very even-handed and fair in his analyses and writes prretty well in Spanish thanks to an aunt named Moonraven.

    Only one hitch: Since he does not speak or write English, Nalle would just write his usual rightwing propaganda under Max’s name….

    I am surprised that Julia has not posted the latest orders from Stalin Gonzales aka Marcel Granier here in regard to the “spontaneous” student protests in Caracas.

    (They are great opportunities for the kids to get out of class and receive extra credit for throwing bottles and chasing the opposite sex–should be adopted as part of the university programs in the US by the Department of Education.)

    Maybe she is translating them (cof, cof) so that Nalle can polish the English before posting them.

    Let’s see who Nalle welcomes with more than open arms next.

    Good thing he has not offered the services of the specialist in second language acquisition as well as in Latin America who regularly posts here: Moonraven.

    See ya, suckers.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Why, MR. That’s a great idea. I agree. Your knowledge of Spanish certainly makes you more qualified to help Julia out. Why don’t you offer her your services, if she’ll take them. I’ll see that the result gets published asap.

    If she thinks that’s not such a good idea I’ll still do my limited best to help out.

    Dave

  • Franco

    #213 — Clavos

    You haven’t “shown” shit, brian. All you’ve done is spout chavista (and left wing) propaganda like a good little partisan.

    Spoken for Truth!!

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Dave, did you finally got my email address? Oh about Moonraven, Im sorry if I’m not open enough, but she has insulted me several times with no reason. A person who considers that I must be colored and poor in order to make stances about my own country, my own president and my own life being this the only way to have my words considered with its own value,its also a person who promote discrimination of the same kind my government does, and Im sorry Dave but I can’t accept this. A lot of people spend their life times praising equality and social justice but what they really mean is equality for some and revenge for the others, social justice for some, revenge for the others and I just find it hard to see how a better world can be built out of revenge. Hope you understand my reasons to reject Moonraven help, if she offers that help.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    No, I haven’t gotten your email, julia. Can you send it to me at daveATfontcraft.com (replace AT with @).

    As for Moonraven’s offer, don’t worry about it. It was insincere and my response to it was sarcastic. She doesn’t really want to help you, she mostly wants you to be intimidated by her antics and scared off.

    Dave

  • Franco

    Julia_1984,

    I solute you Julia!

    In your posts, as in your responses to your attackers, you have amplified humility with courage, while your critics, in utter contrast, have displayed self-righteousness connected with vulgar ad hominem attacks in a desperado push to discredit you at all costs, in hopes of rendering your reality worthless. Which is the exact same thing Chavez and his cronies are trying to do through the legal system that is being deformed by one man and his Cult of Personality.

    Hugo Chavez, along with your critics, do not want to recognize you or anyone like you, nor do they respect the following convention on human rights. A convention of all American states that was established when Chavez was 15 years old.

    Any attempt on the part of your critics to argue for it, has already been utterly destroyed by the very words they have chosen to attack on you with.

    American Convention on Human Rights of the Organisation of American States

    CHAPTER I – GENERAL OBLIGATIONS

    Article 1. Obligation to Respect Rights

    1. The States Parties to this Convention undertake to respect the rights and freedoms recognized herein and to ensure to all persons subject to their jurisdiction the free and full exercise of those rights and freedoms, without any discrimination for reasons of race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, , birth, or any other social condition.

    2. For the purposes of this Convention, “person” means every human being.

    Article 2. Domestic Legal Effects

    Where the exercise of any of the rights or freedoms referred to in Article 1 is not already ensured by legislative or other provisions, the States Parties undertake to adopt, in accordance with their constitutional processes and the provisions of this Convention, such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to those rights or freedoms.

    How dose the American Convention on Human Rights of the Organisation of American States rate Hugo Chavezs’ new Venezuela.

    2006 Anual Report: It states in breef:

    The present report has been prepared with the purpose of promoting a constructive exchange with the Venezuelan State in the search of policies and practices for the full respect of human rights.

    Hugo Chavez frustrates attempts of the IACHR to visit Venezuela

    One area to which the Commission devoted part of its work in 2006 was the attempt to arrange a visit to Venezuela, an effort that was severely frustrated by the lack of response from the State to propose an exact date for the visit.

    The lack of consent from the government prevents the IACHR from exercising the powers and attributes granted to it by the States under the Charter of the OAS, the IACHR Statutes, and the American Convention on Human Rights.

    Judges allegiance to Hugo Chavez

    The Commission received information according to which a number of judges, including some that sit on administrative courts, wearing robes at the inauguration of the current judicial year on January 26, 2006, had shouted slogans in support of the president of the Republic

    The Commission observes that the information presented by the State and by some civil society organizations is contradictory, and regrets that it has not receive sufficient documentation, especially from the State, to verify the existence of irregularities concerning the tenurization process of temporary judges.

    Use of Force

    According to official data provided by the Office of the Attorney General between 2000 and 2005, the number of victims of homicides committed by agents of the state security forces came to 6,377, in which a total of 6,110 police officials were involved. Of these cases, 3346 were homicides reputedly committed by agents of state police forces; 1,198 by agents of the Penal and Criminal Scientific Investigations Corps; 706 by municipal police forces; 140 by members of the National Guard; and 72 by members of the Directorate of Intelligence and Prevention Services (DISIP).

    State Violence and Intimidation of Human Rights

    The degree of impunity that cloaks violations of the right to life allegedly committed by agents of state security forces can be seen in the State of Bolivar. According to publicly available information, in 2006, of the 891 cases of persons thought to been killed in presumed confrontations with the police of that state, only four have gone to trial due to the difficulties encountered by prosecutors in mustering reliable information with which to secure an indictment

    The Commission was informed in 2006 of a number of cases (1) a group of street children who were allegedly set on fire by four military policemen in Caracas on August 21, 2006. (2) A massacre at a farm in Alto Apure on July 20, 2006, where seven adults and two children were murdered with the alleged participation of soldiers in the area; (3) a massacre on September 29, 2006, in La Paragua, Bolívar State, in which four miners were killed, supposedly as a result of the use of force by soldiers.

    The Commission is concerned at information it has received that witnesses and relatives who push forward investigations of violations of the right to life alleged to have involved state officials are victims of acts of violence and intimidation.

    Full Repot: (IACHR) ANNUAL REPORT ON VENEZUELA

    Stay the course Julia. Your English is just fine, and your use and command of it far exceeds and out shines those of your critics.

    Any attempt by your critics to show themselves noble in the cause for human rights would not discredit the spirt of this convention, yet they do so in every word they type. They are not sheep for human rights, they are wolves in sheep’s clothing claiming human rights while they work their personal view on which humans can have them, and your not one of them. Just like Chavez, their hungry for their own agenda, an agenda that they willing reveal as hatred and ignorance by the very words they choose to use in addressing you.

    Thank you for posting your “in country” perspectives. I support you and I too hope you continue, and I look forward to your opinion pieces.

  • Lapdog

    Julia, You are no doubt aware that Dave Nalle is a US citizen living in Texas. If you have time to research his contributions to Blogcritics you will understand that he is a very busy man.

    He has devoted quite a lot of his time writing about your country and now you are asking him to devote more of his time to tutoring you, a citizen of Venezuela.

    Dave Nalle, US citizen, has neglected problems facing oppressed people in the USA, and even goes as far as saying, “Native Americans don’t concern me disproportionately.”

    The plight of Native Americans is of so little concern to him that if you do bother to research his contributions to Blogcritics you will find no concern for them whatsoever.

    The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Now that you have Dave Nalle’s attention perhaps you could persuade him to spend more time writing about human rights violations taking place in his own country against Native Americans, and less time complaining about Hugo Chavez.

  • Clavos

    dog,

    If you are correct in your assessment of Dave that he has “no concern” for the “plight” of the indigineous peoples, why on earth would you want him writing about them?

    If he’s really as unconcerned as you think he is then there’s a good chance that if he wrote about the indigenous, the result would likely not be to your liking no?

  • Franco

    #28 — Lapdog

    What’s with all the chatter about sarcasm?

    Thank you for clearing this up in post #222 concerning any more confustion as to this.

  • Lumpy

    There are no indiginous people of north america. human life originated in africa.

  • REMF

    “…she mostly wants you to be intimidated by her antics and scared off.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Pot, meet the kettle.

  • Franco

    #222 — Lapdog

    The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Do you know why these 4 voted against?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave Nalle, US citizen, has neglected problems facing oppressed people in the USA, and even goes as far as saying, “Native Americans don’t concern me disproportionately.”

    Do you know what ‘disproportionately’ means?

    The plight of Native Americans is of so little concern to him that if you do bother to research his contributions to Blogcritics you will find no concern for them whatsoever.

    Not true, actually. In one of my earliest articles I wrote an impassioned article complaining about the disrespect showed to Russell Means former leader of AIM by the vicious EuroBrute Sean Hannaty.

    The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    This would be because the proposal was unreasonably punative to certain developed nations.

    The entire idea of reparations for supposed indeginous peoples is ridiculous. I have a lot of Pictish ancestry. Do I have the right to demand Scotland back and send the Scotts back to Ireland? Or for that matter, since I display several different physiological characteristics of Neanderthal Man can I sue all of you Cro Magnon bastards for raping my ancestresses and creating that half-breed race called Homo Sapiens (current theory suggesting that we’re a cross-breed of the two species).

    Now that you have Dave Nalle’s attention perhaps you could persuade him to spend more time writing about human rights violations taking place in his own country against Native Americans, and less time complaining about Hugo Chavez.

    I have spent a hell of a lot more time writing about human rights violations within the US than I have on Hugo Chavez, but I tend to focus on things which violate the rights of all Americans, not just arbitrary ethic sub-groups.

    And, of course, the whole foundation of your argument is bogus, because nothing that may have happened in the US in any way alters or diminishes what goes on in Venezuela. The two are unrelated.

    Dave

  • brian

    julia: ‘Are you going to blame a 14 year old of the past mistakes?. ‘

    no, imblaming you for being so brainwashed by your class you cant see the ‘mistakes’ you are manking now.

    Julia: ‘You quoted the famous documentary “The revolution not be televised”. Have you read or look for alternative visions to the one that document established?’

    Me: ‘Im not interested in ‘altyernatie visions’…just the truth of what happened. And no, the doco is not pure prpaganda…it even quotes the coup masters tahnking RCTV for their role in the coup…and shows the coup masters shutting down the state media…that is censoring the news.

    Julia:’ I’m agree with you on what the Carmona decree meant towards the death of the institutions and the democracy.

    Me: the coup in 1992, was as a result of the mass murder committed by the then government. Got it? And Chavez DID go to prison for his efforts…But the government the had l;ost its right to govern when it turned its amry on its own citizens…the snipers of 2002 was an attempt by the coup masters to revisit history and paint the Chavistas as the murderers this time round…only the documentary:’The Revolution…’ made it clear the snipers were not chavitsas but unknown persons, ,ost lilely the coup masters pawns.

    Me:’ you mention ‘alternative visions’ Yet you never say what those are. But clearly they have no room for the poor in the barrios…right?
    .
    Julia: ‘Working with my government in order to improve Venezuelan lives sounds like a nice idea. But things are just not that easy. For working with my government you must sacrifice your ideas first under the risk of losing your job. The people who signed against the government in order to ask for a recall….

    Me: remember the ‘recall’ was Chavez idea…it didnt exist under your class leadership, and would be removed if they ever got back into power.

    Julia: ‘About countries where internet access is not granted, you might take Cuba for example. To even have a computer of your own its ilegal and only the public offices carefully watched by the government have internet access. ‘

    Me: now you sound like Dave…why this sudden blast at Cuba? And there is internet in Cuba, as ive got penpals there. But i notice you dont deny there is intenet in Venezuela!

  • brian

    Julia: ‘First, I don’t know much about the phsycological troubles of my president, but there is some true on that personality cult he denounces.

    Well, he has none….nor is he creating a cult of himself…

    Clavos:’ You haven’t “shown” shit, brian. All you’ve done is spout chavista (and left wing) propaganda like a good little partisan.’

    Showing ‘shit’ Clavos is your forte..all i show it the truth…care to show me i havent? RCTV was inolved in the 2002 coup, therefore it deserved not merely to hae its license not-renewed, but its execs should be in jail….they would be in any other country.
    =======================================
    Now for Dave:’
    Dave: ‘Brian, what do YOU care about peasants in Venezuela when you live thousands of miles away in a country where the peasants are even more oppressed than they are in Venezuela?’

    Me…i care a great deal. For peasants in Venezuela or africa or asia…and esp when they get a raw deal by their urban money grubbing elites. I realise you dont care…thats why you are attacking their government.

    Dave: ‘Brian, she’s an eyewitness source. She IS proof.’

    Me: being there does not make her an honest witness. You have heard of ‘false witness’?

    Dave: ‘Why don’t you point out where I’ve said anything that I haven’t been able to back up factually, Brian?’

    Me: ‘Why dont you back your statements with a few links?

    ‘Dave:’Every one of my factual claims is linked to a source, Brian. Go read them.’

    Me: No, dave. Ive had to ask you for therse before you ever profer anything…and youve still to offer links proving the cult of personality!That is prove that Chavez is creating a cult of his own person.

    Dave: ‘The existence of the posters is proof of the cult of personality, whether put up by the government – as some clearly were – or painted by the people as some may have been. Do you deny the existence of the images I provided ample examples of?’

    Me: No dave, and theres an eg of your ‘proof’. but nice you admit that posters may have been put up by someone else…But show me the links. All i see is proof that Chavez is popular without someone…Not that Chavez or is govt has created them OR that they show a cult of personality…

    You do understand what a cult of personality is dont u? I think im seeing in you a typical gringo view of latin america.

    Dave: ‘It’s true in many countries where the internet is entirely controlled by the state. In those countries the only people with access to the web are professional shills sent out on the internet by the state to promote their interests and attack their enemies.

    Me: what countries? You dont mean venezuela?

    For example, if you were in a country like North Korea or Laos where internet is controlled by the government or else enormously expensive, only members of the ruling communist elite can afford service or an education in English for that matter, unless they are provided internet access because of employment by the government.’

    Me: got you there dave…ive just been in Laos (im now in Thailand). There is internet there, and it costs very little to go to and inertnet cafe and use it…anyone. In china wikipedia is blocked. But not in Laos, that i recall.

  • brian

    Off topic, but what do people think of this latest offering from the Monster:

    ‘Bush offers to bomb KurdsArticle from: Font size: Decrease Increase Email article: Email Print article: Print Submit comment: Submit comment October 24, 2007 12:51pm
    THE Bush Administration is considering air strikes, including cruise missiles, against the Kurdish rebel group PKK in northern Iraq.’
    etc
    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22636940-663,00.html

    Hes invaded iraq and killed hundreds of thousands in a self styled bringing freedom and democracy’…now he wants to bomb his kurdish allies!!The very same sods who helped him in his bloodthirsty war!
    I bet the kurds are surpised by this development..
    No Chavez and his govenment have long opposed this war. Does Julia and her class also oppose the war and occupation of iraq? I bet not.

  • brian

    This should make dave and Julia happy:

    ‘Bomb Explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in Bolivia
    October 24th 2007, by Kiraz Janicke – Venezuelanalysis.com
    Bolivian opposition protest in Santa Cruz last weekend (AP) October 24, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com)- The Venezuelan Consulate and the residency of a Cuban doctor were attacked with explosives in the opposition controlled state of Santa Cruz, in Bolivia, in the early hours of Monday October 22.

    At approximately 3 a.m. explosives thrown at the residency of the Venezuelan consulate, blew a hole in the roof of a room where children were sleeping, then at around 4 a.m. dynamite was thrown from a moving car at the house of a Cuban doctor also in Santa Cruz, causing minor damage. Alex Contreras, a spokesperson for the Bolivian Government said no one was injured and that there would be a thorough investigation into the incident.
    etc
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2756

    Of course, since its venezuela and cuba bombed, we can see who is responsible…the same sort who organised the 2002 coup.
    Note the cowards attacked a place where children were sleeping…i hope they get caught real quick.

    These are the sort of people Dave and Julia are supporting.
    ===============================
    Also, note the racism:
    ‘Bolivia’s Interior Minister, Alfredo Rada said the attacks were incited by the racist discourse of Governor of Santa Cruz, Ruben Costas, against the Bolivian government and its allies Cuba and Venezuela last Thursday during which Costas criticized Venezuelan aid programs to Bolivia, referred to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez a “monkey,” and declared him “persona non grata” in Santa Cruz’

    This is the same language that Julia class refers to Chavez and the barrio poor.

    Id like to see both Julia and Dave denounce this sort of ‘monkey’ language.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The amount you pay with your imperialist dollars in Laos may be low, but if you were Laotian that $2 per hour would be a fortune, because the communist oligarchs keep the people in poverty.

    So, you’re touring repressive regimes in Southeast Asia and are shilling for communist golden boy Hugo Chavez. Care to tell us who you work for, Brian? We already know that Moonraven is a tranzi stooge for various NGOs. Who pays you to promote and defend the most inhumane and repressive ideology in earth’s history?

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Brian, you might READ the articles you link to. The Iraqi government offered to help the Kurds out and Bush is following their lead. And he’s not talking about bombing Kurdistan, but about bombing PKK terrorist camps. I realize you’re on the side of the terrorists, but surely you can do better than to just make stuff up.

    BTW, we’ve got another discussion thread for this topic.

    Dave

  • brian

    ‘The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Dave: ‘This would be because the proposal was unreasonably punative to certain developed nations.’

    Me: Developed nations? Thats an odd word,given these ‘developed’ nationsgot that way on the backs and land of the native peoples. But what of germany post WW2? Why not use that arguement that they shouldnt be made to pay because too punitive! You said you work for native americans..yet once again your own words give the lie to your own claims. You dont care…what you care for are those ‘developed nations’ not their victims.
    The developed nations named, have a long record of genocidical racism

  • brian

    Now heres a FREAL cult of personality:

    ‘In response to Costas, who in a challenge the Armed Forces and the national government, said, “the only commander of this town…is me,” the Bolivian Armed Forces indicated that they have “sufficient capacity” to “guarantee the stability of the legally constituted government” of President Evo Morales. ‘
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2756

    or as a french king once put it: The state: that is me!

  • brian

    Now heres what a real monster (Bush) lets loose:

    Helicopter Fire Kills Iraqis, Days After Sadr City Battle
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/24/world/middleeast/24iraq.html?_r=3&ref=world&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

    This brave action by us forces…bears a striking resemblance to israeli tactics.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Get over this whole ‘native peoples’ BS, Brian. It’s meaningless misdirection. EVERYONE has a long history of genocide and racism. Get over it. We’re not living in history, we’re living today.

    Dave

  • brian

    Dave: ‘The amount you pay with your imperialist dollars in Laos may be low, but if you were Laotian that $2 per hour would be a fortune, because the communist oligarchs keep the people in poverty’

    i didnt use imperialist $ dave…i used Kip.
    Your ‘concern’ for the working poor in Laos is another eg of how good u are in aping concern for others.Pity it doesnt convince me.
    ================================

    Dave: ‘So, you’re touring repressive regimes in Southeast Asia and are shilling for communist golden boy Hugo Chavez.’

    Yes, by repressive regimes i guess you mean Thailand, a capitalist nation that had a military coupd’etat recently..the idea being to ‘restore dmeocracy’…the same slogan used by the 2002 coup masters, whom you supported.

    Chavez is neither golden, a boy nor communist…youd know this if youd done a little more research.
    ==================
    Dave: ‘Who pays you to promote and defend the most inhumane and repressive ideology in earth’s history?’

    That last phrase fits capitalism, as we see in the US invasion of afghanistan and iraq, the militaary take over in Thailand, the attacks on Zimbabwe by the brits. And even australias coup backing in East timor…

  • brian

    Bombing the kurdish terrorist camps? How did they get that label? They werent called that when the same ‘terrorists’ were aiding US!
    And as we know, when the US bombs, civilians get killed as well. Or do you think every victim of US bombings is a terrorist?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Brian. Please format links properly. They mess up the site.

    And regarding your helicopter story. Who fired first?

    Oh, and no one takes the propaganda from venezuelaanalysis seriously.

    Still waiting for an answer to my earlier question about who pulls your strings.

    Dave

  • brian

    and the PKK is described as a ‘rebel group':

    ‘THE Bush Administration is considering air strikes, including cruise missiles, against the Kurdish rebel group PKK in northern Iraq.’

    Its the turks who are calling it a ‘terrorist group’ Dave…maybe you should read the story a bit closer…

    But the one mans rebel is another mans ‘terrorist’

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Get over this whole ‘native peoples’ BS, Brian. It’s meaningless misdirection. EVERYONE has a long history of genocide and racism. Get over it. We’re not living in history, we’re living today.’

    Now thats more like the dave i know…lets not care about genocide…unless its jewish…

    AND NO dave everyone does not..or are u calling yourself a genocide? Nor does every country..and those that did like Belgium in the congo have yet to pay recompense. the canadian genocide against the native canadians is still living memory. The israeli jews are committing genocide as we sit here and type.

  • brian

    canadian genocide:
    http://www.hiddenfromhistory.org/
    Its not history, its hidden from history.

  • brian

    sorry about any mess..the links work ok on other message boards. Apologies.

    Dave: ‘And regarding your helicopter story. Who fired first?’

    Thats not the issue… but who fired first was the US! when it launched this bloody war, which is unravelling Iraq. Why do u suppose the kurds were so happy with the invasion…it gave them a chance to form greater kurdistan…didnt the US govt think this would upset the turks?
    So who fired the first shot? The US of course.

    and behind the US lies israel and the neocons, for whom a fragmente iraq is what theyve have long been waiting for. And has long been israeli policy.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Oh, and no one takes the propaganda from venezuelaanalysis seriously.

    Still waiting for an answer to my earlier question about who pulls your strings.’

    I dont have any strings to pull dave: but yours are bouncing like crazy.

    Venezuela analysis is not a propaganda site…unlike most of the venezuela and US media…If you can prove your claim, go ahead.But you will need to do what youve not done: provide hard evidence.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Get over this whole ‘native peoples’ BS, Brian.’

    You need to get over this anti-chavez mania…

  • Lapdog

    Dave Nalle, US citizen, has neglected problems facing oppressed people in the USA, and even goes as far as saying, “Native Americans don’t concern me disproportionately.”

    “Do you know what ‘disproportionately’ means?”

    Do you what what concern for Native Americans means?

    The plight of Native Americans is of so little concern to him that if you do bother to research his contributions to Blogcritics you will find no concern for them whatsoever.

    “Not true, actually. In one of my earliest articles I wrote an impassioned article complaining about the disrespect showed to Russell Means former leader of AIM by the vicious EuroBrute Sean Hannaty.”

    One claimed article complaining about the verbal abuse of one Native American versus a truck load of articles bitching about conditions in countries other than the USA. Your medal is in the mail.

    The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    “This would be because the proposal was unreasonably punative to certain developed nations.”

    And those developed nations prefer the status quo of being unreasonably punative to the colonized peoples whose land and natural resources they occupy and profit from.

    “The entire idea of reparations for supposed indeginous peoples is ridiculous.”

    Then forget about reparations and start complaining about the ongoing theft of Native American land and resources by supposed believers in the rule of law.

    “I have a lot of Pictish ancestry. Do I have the right to demand Scotland back and send the Scotts back to Ireland?”

    Do you have a copy of a treaty between the Picts and the Scots?

    Now that you have Dave Nalle’s attention perhaps you could persuade him to spend more time writing about human rights violations taking place in his own country against Native Americans, and less time complaining about Hugo Chavez.

    “I have spent a hell of a lot more time writing about human rights violations within the US than I have on Hugo Chavez,…”

    But not violations of Native Americans’ human rights.

    “…but I tend to focus on things which violate the rights of all Americans, not just arbitrary ethic sub-groups.”

    Translation: In Nalle’s world, Native American nations with distinct languages, religions and cultures, that have survived the genocidal foreign occupation of their homelands, and have been herded into reservations, should be viewed as part of the big happy US family. Whether they want to be or not.

    “And, of course, the whole foundation of your argument is bogus, because nothing that may have happened in the US in any way alters or diminishes what goes on in Venezuela. The two are unrelated.”

    You may have a point. Venezuelans enjoy the basic human right of self-determination while Native Americans do not.

  • Clavos

    “..all i show it the truth…care to show me i havent?”

    Just because you SAY it’s the truth doesn’t make it so, brian, especially when you keep linking to the leftist chavista propaganda blog, venezuelanalysis as your “proof” of the “truth.”

    “Sound and fury,” brian.

    Crap is crap, brian. No matter how much you try to mask its odor.

  • brian

    Clavos:’Just because you SAY it’s the truth doesn’t make it so,’

    well.you are welcome to prove it isnt,Clavos

    Venezuela analysis is not a blog…its a news and analysis site….why not bother to go look at it. 2ndly, you keep lynig that its propaganda…YOUR saying so doesnt make it so.

  • brian

    Just saw this;

    ‘American Convention on Human Rights of the Organisation of American States

    CHAPTER I – GENERAL OBLIGATIONS

    Article 1. Obligation to Respect Rights’

    Dose this mean OAS countries cant invade other OAS countries or engage in coup d’etats?

  • Clavos

    “Venezuela analysis is not a blog…its a news and analysis site….why not bother to go look at it. 2ndly, you keep lynig that its propaganda…YOUR saying so doesnt make it so.”

    Yeah, right.

    I’ve been on the site; dozens of times.

    Venezualanalysis is a propaganda outlet for the chavista regime.

    Two minutes reading on the site makes that evident to anyone with a brain, brian.

    You’ll have to do a lot better than that.

    Oh, and BTW: you are the one making the assertions about Chavez; the burden of proof is on you, not me, not Dave, not Julia, nor anyone else who challenges you.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Brian, let me ask you a favor. I live here, in Venezuela, I’ve been living here my whole life and counting so I’m pretty much know by memory the whole government propaganda, arguments, ideology and so on. So… stop making me waste my time.

    About native Americans, it is a noble cause as it is to demand respect for all minorities, what I don’t understand is why you mess this up with my country situation. Perhaps you think Chavez supports indigenous people, once again, the constitution provided them some territory and yet you see them asking for money on Caraca’s streets because their basic needs are not being sastified at the place they come from. So first, stop believing my government’ propaganda.

    Venezuela Analysis is a pro government site, and I use it a lot as a source. Perhaps you could also check on other sites where the alternative vision I’m talking about is located.

    Now honestly I dont know if Im putting the links right. But if you cant see them, gimme your mail address and I will send you these and even more. And I can send you also, loads of other pro-government pages. Why do I bother? Because I think your lack of knowledge about my country situation made you assume a simple and distorted speech copied from my government’ one.

    I’m not saying that my government speech is wrong, I’m just saying theres something behind the speech that deserves to be listened. And the reality is not as simple as they paint it.

  • troll

    …a Hopi grandfather once reminded me that people are what they resist – the past and future are stories we tell ourselves

    so – the question is not what Dave Nalle writes about but rather how you sing

    or as the more practical Apache put it: if you rub your nose in every pile of shit you find then you make the world stink

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Dave, thanks for the support and Franco, thanks for your comment, to quote the Human Rights Convention was very clever of you. But some people around here, instead of really discussing are more busy defending their own interest and issues and in the name of those interest they will support anything that could possible help us, even if its a dictatorship.

    Brian: just one more thing. No matter under what excuse the coup of 1992 was made, the important thing to notice is that it was a clear violation to the democracy and that many innocent people died that day, just as many innocent people (more in this case) died in the Caracazo and they also deserve justice. But I guess with the distorted version of history that the government its trying to impose, the victims of the Caracazo are the only ones that matter. Some venezuelans are more venezuelans than others – Orwell would say.
    .
    Again about the indians you could be interested on visiting this blog. the owner is an american missionary who spend 20 years living with the indians in the Venezuelan jungles, providing them education and medical care. She was just expelled of the country, like many others.

    Now you might feel unconfortable because in politics she has very right winged views, but try to look beyond her political views to her stories from her experiences at the jungle. Hope you notice what I did (Im not right winged either), that her stories are valuable in regards to see whats happening to the indians under Chavez.
    Regards

  • moonraven

    Julia:

    I made NO offer to turn you into a WRITER in either English or Spanish. That was Nalle condescending to you because you agree with his racist views.

    Your family should be taking either you or your professors of Spanish to task for your poor first language skills, as they PAID for you to learn them–as well as for your being a poor student of English, as they PAID a lot of money for you to learn that language, too.

    The low quality of private education in Venezuela is one of the reasons that the Venezuelan government has decided that there must be a regulatory body to approve programs, like there is in just about every other country on the face of the planet.

    (I am not just picking on Venezuela, either. Latn America’s educational model–what Paulo Freire called “education bancaria”, does not work. It is significant that the ONLY university in Latin America that is listed in the top 100 of universities in the world is here in Mexico–the UNAM–and it is a PUBLIC university.)

    I am also disinclined to offer help to someone who has her own computer yet doesn’t have HER OWN MIND.

    I don’t have my own computer. I DO have my own mind, and it’s a good one.

    I DO use it sometimes as a volunteer to teach university students how to write in Spanish and/or in English–university students whose families do not have the money to pay for a private education.

    You are not part of that group.

    You are part of the group with the most infantile set of expectations of its government that I have seen in any country.

    You blame your PRESIDENT if you can’t buy black beans–instead of the owner of the store who is hoarding the beans in the warehouse until the prices rise?!!!

    You blame your current president for the massacre called the Caracazo that happened in 1989–WHILE YOUR CURRENT PRESIDENT WAS AN ACTIVE MILITARY OFFICER WHO DID NOT EVEN PARTICPATE IN THE EVENTS BECAUSE HE WAS CONFINED TO BED UNDER QUARANTINE FOR 2 WEEKS WITH CHICKEN POX?!!!!!

    And then you turn around and blame him AGAIN for trying to overthrow the government that made that massacre.

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt because you were 4 years old [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    The problem is that you have adopted the racism, the classism and all of the illusions of the middle and upper middle class throughout Latin American which hold that only folks with white skin should have power and wealth.

    That situation is exaggerated in Venezuela by the general level of infantilism in the society, and because OIL corrupted–rotted your country. And that last phrase was written by a Venezuelan thinkner–not by me.

    Rather than just swallowing what others in your neighborhood and in your private university tell you:

    Learn to read and to understand the history of your intensely conflictive country. Find out what happened to Bolivar at the hands of his countrymen. Find out WHY he wasn’t buried in the pantheon until many years after he died penniless and wearing a borrowed shirt in Santa Marta, COLOMBIA.

    If I can read and analyse and MAKE THEATER from the history of your country, and I am not even a venezolana, WHY DON’T YOU learn something about it? Because privileged folks are lazy and you, my dear esta buscando lo facil. I suggest that you make an effort to learn and question from your OWN efforts–not adopt the postures of friends and familiy members or TO GET A BOYFRIEND. Then perhaps you will see that I am not insulting YOU.

    But that you have insulted ME, a Native American from the Mohawk Nation and a sister of the indigenous peoples of Latin America. Your racism is repugnant, and it will NEVER make you, your country or this planet a better place in which to live.

    When you can tell me the story–the complete story–of why El Negro Miguel was one of the most important figures in the history of Venezuela and the history of the hemisphere, THEN–and ONLY THEN–can we have a conversation.

  • moonraven

    Nalle hates:

    1. Chavez

    2. All Native Americans–we should “get over it”!

    3. Me

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I would also like his [edited] fingers to post a list of the NGOs that I shill for RIGHT HERE. ON THIS SITE. NOW.

    And I would like to see his fingers post even one piece of EVIDENCE (evidence is not the OPINION of someone who agrees with him) of ANY of his claims about Chavez, Evo Morales or any other person of COLOR whom he has libeled on this site.

  • moonraven

    Since the Bolivian thread appears to have gone tits up because clavos doesn’t bother to read any news except OPINIONS HE WRITES, I willpost the latest info here:

    The Bush machine–while tantruming in Congress that if Congress doesn’t apprve free trade agreements with Colombia and Co. that Chavez will take over South America without firing a shot–has been actively fomenting “student protests” in Bolivia and Venezuela this week.

    1. In Caracas the private university students are once again receiving extra credit to not be in class (what student would not jump for that?) and to march and throw bottles against the constitutional reforms promulgated this week by the National Assembly.

    2. In Santa Cruz students are “spontaneously” protesting the proposed one-time-per-year payment of the equivalent of 315 DOLLARS (A FUCKING FORTUNE, LADS) to senior citizens BECAUSE half of the payment may be allocated to the budgets of the individual provinces and half to windfall gas profits.

    The governors of some of those states don’t like that–and the UIS says they should NOT like it–because that money would normally go into their Cayman Island accounts.

    But the STUDENTS are the patsies.

    The students are the Lee Harvey Oswalds of Latin America.

    Hw does it FEEL…to be on your own…with no direction home….

  • moonraven

    Here is an excerpt from an English language article on Venezuelanalysis.com:

    “The Venezuelan Consulate and the residency of a Cuban doctor were attacked with explosives in the opposition controlled state of Santa Cruz, in Bolivia, in the early hours of Monday October 22.

    At approximately 3 a.m. explosives thrown at the residency of the Venezuelan consulate, blew a hole in the roof of a room where children were sleeping, then at around 4 a.m. dynamite was thrown from a moving car at the house of a Cuban doctor also in Santa Cruz, causing minor damage. Alex Contreras, a spokesperson for the Bolivian Government said no one was injured and that there would be a thorough investigation into the incident.

    The Cuban Ambassador to Bolivia, Rafael Dausa, told local radio that this was the second attack, “A month and a half ago there was a similar attack with a tear gas grenade thrown against another house where Cuban doctors live.”

    Bolivia’s Interior Minister, Alfredo Rada said the attacks were incited by the racist discourse of Governor of Santa Cruz, Ruben Costas, against the Bolivian government and its allies Cuba and Venezuela last Thursday during which Costas criticized Venezuelan aid programs to Bolivia, referred to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez a “monkey,” and declared him “persona non grata” in Santa Cruz.

    “There are people that find in these words the incentive to carry out criminal and violent attacks, transferring the verbal violence into physical violence,” Rada added.

    Speaking on Venezuelan state TV yesterday, Venezuelan Foreign Minister, Nicolas Maduro accused the “racist Bolivian oligarchy” of being responsible for the explosions. “We have seen in the last 48 hours the moral decomposition of this oligarchy, how they have unleashed fury and hate,” he said.

    Maduro explained that the Bolivian oligarchy has been the instrument of imperialism, “of the monopolies that have dominated the natural resources of Bolivia over decades and exploited the Bolivian people.”

    “They are trying to sabotage the peaceful and democratic changes carried out by president Morales,” Maduro continued.

    Recalling Chavez’s recent comments that “Venezuela will not remain with our arms crossed” in the face of any opposition attempts to overthrow or assassinate Bolivian President Evo Morales, Maduro affirmed that Venezuela would increase “the moral, political and material support that we are giving to the president of Bolivia, Evo Morales and the people of that country.”

    “They can count on the support of the Bolivarian Government, of the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez Frias and all the Venezuelan people,” he added.

    The attacks come in the context of clashes between the Governorship of Santa Cruz and the national government over the control of the Viru Viru airport, Bolivia’s most important international airport, in Santa Cruz last week.

    On October 18, in the midst of widespread reports of corruption by local authorities, and according to an article by Rainer Uphoff, reports by several international airlines of encounters “with armed groups demanding $2,000 cash payments as landing fees,” national authorities ordered the Bolivian Armed Forces to secure Viru Viru.

    Falsely claiming the involvement of Venezuelan military personal in the securing of Viru Viru, Costas then led an opposition demonstration of up to 20,000 people in “retaking” the airport on October 19, demanding that taxes collected at the airport should go into the coffers of the local government of Santa Cruz.

    In response to Costas, who in a challenge the Armed Forces and the national government, said, “the only commander of this town…is me,” the Bolivian Armed Forces indicated that they have “sufficient capacity” to “guarantee the stability of the legally constituted government” of President Evo Morales.

    Perpetuating the false claims of Venezuelan military involvement, opposition governors from Santa Cruz, Tarija, Beni, Pando, and Cochabamba launched a media campaign demanding the withdrawal of “foreign military forces that are intervening in the internal affairs of the country.”

    However, Bolivian Defense Minister, Walker San Miguel said on Bolivian TV channel Cadena A on Tuesday that there are no foreign troops in the country and that the opposition claims were a political posture.

    “There are no foreign military troops. We see not only a confusion in the terminology that they use, but clearly political and media aims,” San Miguel told ABI. ”

    As usual, clavos has been promoting lies and disinformation.

  • Franco

    brian

    You repeatedly demand proof supporting the criticism and concerns voiced against Hugo Chavez hear on this thread.

    I offered you proof in post #221 and you have not responded to them.

    These concerns and accusations of human rights violations levied against the government of Hugo Chavezs by the IACHR-OAS in my post #221 and in this post have been provide to you via your repeated demand for proof.

    Per your own requests, please address this document on human right violations by staying on topic.

    ——————————————————

    2006 Annual Report on Venezuela: by the American Convention on Human Rights of the Organization of American States.

    2006 Annual Report: states in brief:

    Hugo Chavez frustrates attempts of the IACHR to visit Venezuela

    One area to which the Commission devoted part of its work in 2006 was the attempt to arrange a visit to Venezuela, an effort that was severely frustrated by the lack of response from the State to propose an exact date for the visit.

    The lack of consent from the government prevents the IACHR from exercising the powers and attributes granted to it by the States under the Charter of the OAS, the IACHR Statutes, and the American Convention on Human Rights.

    Judges allegiance to Hugo Chavez

    The Commission received information according to which a number of judges, including some that sit on administrative courts, wearing robes at the inauguration of the current judicial year on January 26, 2006, had shouted slogans in support of the president of the Republic

    The Commission observes that the information presented by the State and by some civil society organizations is contradictory, and regrets that it has not receive sufficient documentation, especially from the State, to verify the existence of irregularities concerning the tenurization process of temporary judges.

    Use of Force

    According to official data provided by the Office of the Attorney General between 2000 and 2005, the number of victims of homicides committed by agents of the state security forces came to 6,377, in which a total of 6,110 police officials were involved. Of these cases, 3346 were homicides reputedly committed by agents of state police forces; 1,198 by agents of the Penal and Criminal Scientific Investigations Corps; 706 by municipal police forces; 140 by members of the National Guard; and 72 by members of the Directorate of Intelligence and Prevention Services (DISIP).

    State Violence and Intimidation of Human Rights

    The degree of impunity that cloaks violations of the right to life allegedly committed by agents of state security forces can be seen in the State of Bolivar. According to publicly available information, in 2006, of the 891 cases of persons thought to been killed in presumed confrontations with the police of that state, only four have gone to trial due to the difficulties encountered by prosecutors in mustering reliable information with which to secure an indictment

    The Commission was informed in 2006 of a number of cases (1) a group of street children who were allegedly set on fire by four military policemen in Caracas on August 21, 2006. (2) A massacre at a farm in Alto Apure on July 20, 2006, where seven adults and two children were murdered with the alleged participation of soldiers in the area; (3) a massacre on September 29, 2006, in La Paragua, Bolívar State, in which four miners were killed, supposedly as a result of the use of force by soldiers.

    The Commission is concerned at information it has received that witnesses and relatives who push forward investigations of violations of the right to life alleged to have involved state officials are victims of acts of violence and intimidation.

    ——————————————————

  • moonraven

    That is probably it from Latin America today–unless the folks who are too blind to see start posting.

    I have faster fish to fry. And it’s fucking cold in Mexico City.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    I think that larger parts from the MoonRaven comment should be deleted, her whole comment is clearly a personal attack and I have not given any justification whats so ever to recieve attacks towards my country, my class, my education and even my friends, my boyfriend and my family. I won’t tolerate that me or my enviroment be constantly insulted in the most disrespecful way by this woman. She just don’t know how to discuss in an enviroment that preserves the dignity of the contenders, as the matter of fact she considers the ones who are not agree with her as second class citizens. So Moonraven, if you are going to bring any idea to this debate, my advice is that you should control your emotions first.
    For the rest of the readers: All the english I know I have learn it by myself, translating songs and movies, and reading books in english later. Thats why I have a good vocabulary but a terrible grammar. My english doesn’t comes from formal education.

  • moonraven

    But befre I go, “franco” would have us believe that he offers evidence. I don’t see any evidence. Asking for an investigation of an incident is not the same as PROVIING that somone actually did something.

    And He also implies that since Chavez is the president that HE was the one who set children on fire in the street. Right. That’s why he started a program to get the kids off the streets and out of the victim role. Just like HE was the one who took the package of dried beans off the supermarket shelf and hid it. The Bogey Man is obviously much more popular than Santa Claud all over Latin America.

    Wanna know why? It’s because folks expect someone else–a caudillo, a casique, the dictator, the president, Santa Claud or the Easter Bunny to DO for them what they need to learn to do for themselves.

    I am not a supporter of gringo-style individualism, being that I foment community development–but please; this is ridiculous! It’s pathetic that there are millions like Julia–or even worse–who expect manna to drop from the sky in their bakyards.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Now I AM out of here.

  • moonraven

    Ah, the boyfriend. Appears I was right on target and hit little Julia with another arrow, so now she is squaleing right along with Nalle for me to be banned. How funny.

    And El Negro Miguel? She doesn’t even know who he was.

    Learned English from songs–Right. In the classroom. With an inept EFL teacher.

    Now, I MUST go–stop making me into a prevaricator, escualido wannabes.

  • Lapdog

    “For the rest of the readers: All the english I know I have learn it by myself, translating songs and movies, and reading books in english later. Thats why I have a good vocabulary but a terrible grammar. My english doesn’t comes from formal education.”

    I’m sure the readers would like to know the titles of some of your favorite English language books, movies and songs. Please put together a short list and post it here when you find the time.
    Thanks in advance.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I think #261 bears noting. I see that MR posted a bunch of nonsense posts to bury it so we wouldn’t pay attention.

    It reports things in Venezuela – from a neutral source – which are even worse than many of us thought. Put that report in plain language. It’s talking about thousands of murders of citizens by the military and secret police, actual death squads, political assassinations and worse.

    How anyone can defend Chavez is beyond me. That ideology could trump simple human decency and compassion for people like Brian, MR and Lapdog is sickening.

    Dave

  • troll

    Dave – you forget how long it took the ‘left’ to realize and then to admit that Soviet style communism was a tragedy

  • moonraven

    Oops, now we have Nalle who turns the death of 4 miners into a massacre of thousands posting lies to make me into a liar. But I am leaving after this response!

    It is still UNCLEAR how the miners were killed in that extremely remote area which is not accessible by roads (which is why miners in those areas do not comply with the law and continue illegally mining).

    But the Latin American tradition of abuse of power by soldiers is not yet completely dead in Venezuela.

    It still happens, and it is wrong–but Julia and Nalle want to believe that Chavez is the one flying into that remote area (still even contested territory with another country) to murder a few of his own people.

    And that is CRAZY!

    Here in Mexico boy is that tradition rocking and rolling in Guererro State–where the Mexican army builds roads so that they can go into remote areas and kill people–and has since at least the Dirty War of the 1970s.

    Here we ARE talking about an accumulation of a thousand dead since 1970. With several presidents in power who DID give the order to kill them–and that IS documented.

    But that doesn’t bother Nalle at all. Nor Little Julia.

    Why? Because the thousands of Native Americans murdered in Mexico (not to mention the 90 million murdered a little BEFORE 1970 in the hemisphere–including the more than majority of that figure in the US of Aholes) are not propaganda fodder for their crying wolf about Chavez–who also is African American.

    I am old enough to remember the moral of the story about The Boy Who Cried Wolf:

    If you lie often enough nobody believes you when you DO tell the truth.

  • Lapdog

    “It’s talking about thousands of murders of citizens by the military and secret police, actual death squads, political assassinations and worse.”

    This must be Iraq under US occupation you’re writing about. It’s all sanctioned by the US and the UK.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Bliffle and others have asked me why I post about Hugo Chavez while neglecting other important issues. This thread illustrates exactly why.

    Chavez is a litmus test. Writing about him is like lighting a torch in a dark room and revealing that you are surrounded by monsters. It attracts the people who are the real threat to freedom in the world and causes them to expose their true faces.

    Sure, terrorism and racism and war are awful problems. But what writing about Chavez does is reveal the people who stand behind those problems supporting them financially and with their loyalty. It brings out the people who set ideology above humanity and will excuse anything from slavery to simple murder to genocide if it is done in the name of the right ideology. These people are the enablers of terrorism, the spreaders and teachers of hate and the betrayers of humanity.

    There are the monsters among us and if writing about Hugo Chavez reveals them, then it’s about the most important thing I can do.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    “Sure, terrorism and racism and war are awful problems. But what writing about Chavez does is reveal the people who stand behind those problems supporting them financially and with their loyalty. It brings out the people who set ideology above humanity and will excuse anything from slavery to simple murder to genocide if it is done in the name of the right ideology. These people are the enablers of terrorism, the spreaders and teachers of hate and the betrayers of humanity.

    Nobody asked for your resume, Dave.

  • moonraven

    Yep, it sure is: YOU REVEALED YOURSELF as having the EXACT PROFILE of the typical supporter of the Bush regime’s policy of genocide all over the planet!!!!!!!!!

    Only 1.2 million Iraquis death–nothing, if it furthers US interests. Which you are even dumb enough to believe are YOURS [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    But because Chavez says that the US was founded on genocide and slavery and STILL PROMOTES BOTH, you squeal like a stuck pig because he tells it like it IS–and that means other people in other countries and maybe even a few in the US whose grey matter is not CEMENT listen and they see that he is indeed telling the TRUTH.

    Your INTERESTS are at stake, and like the BUSH gang who told the congress that if they don’t agree to the free trade agreements with some of the biggest human rights violators on the planet, that Hugo Chavez, a MAN OF COLOR, will take over the hemisphere, you just keep squealing.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    MoonRaven, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I dont even have a boyfriend at the moment. Por qué no mejor te callas la boca, dejas de andarle inventando la vida a otras personas, y te ocupas de tus propios asuntos abuela. Menos mal que por tu avanzada edad, estás probablemente obligada a abandonar este mundo antes que yo. Menos mal que tu influencia se remite a una página como esta, porque de ser mayor, el daño sería definitivamente cuantioso.
    And I did not recieved formal english education. In what language do you want me to put that to you?
    Lo que sé de inglés, lo sé porque lo aprendí YO SOLA.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Oh and I cannot afford a formal english education, I had a full scholarship that allowed me to study in a private university the 5 years that my major lasted, and for going to class on time I had to leave home two hours before, walk a lot, take a bus, and a long subway ride. You can keep making up stuff about me or my live and you can keep calling me niña fresa, rich kid whatever. I will just LAUGH of your incredible ignorance. I wasn’t planning to bring any of this issues to the table but your disrespect made me sick and I need the rest of the readers to know that your comments are only emotional, and they are born from a social resentment. They are not the voice of a -so called – expert on Latin America. They have been written with anger, with only purpose to destroy me, or any individual that dares to think different. If you consider yourself to be part of somehow a better education than the one I recieved, then I ask you, education for hate? education for war? education for people unable to hold a debate? If thats your education, I dont want it. I will stay with my “crappy” Venezuelan education. It might not be the best, but I’m proud of it, I’m proud of what I learn inside the classrooms and in the school of life and I’m proud of having the ability of keep learning, instead of spending my lifetime destroying -so called – “enemies”.

  • Franco

    Julia gives classical response to moonraven

    I havent ever talk before with someone from the academy who managed such a language. If you are going to keep insulting me, and make arguments ad hominem join a political party but don’t do it in the name of your “expertise” … that’s a fallacy.

    You say you are a well paid expert – So if you are getting well paid, means you are privileged, what’s your right to speak in the name of the less privileged?

    And if you are such a great woman as you say, expert and all, why you do even feel the need to discuss and even more, insult a 22 year old niña fresa? (yep, 22, I’ll be 23 next month).

    I will not tolerate another insult from yours. Talk to me in a respectful language. Discuss in a respectful language.

    Julia, you have dignity, humility, and class and is shows in spades. A from of class by the way, that can’t be bought or stolen and can not be crushed by even Hugo Chavez, let alone moonraven.

    Julia, I know you are repulsed by moonraven. You are not alone. Over a year ago when moonraven (aka “marthe raymond” the name she used to post under) fist showed up here on BC, it all started in another opinion piece written about Hugo Chavez back in 2006 titled, Hugo Chavez – One Man Axis of Crazy.

    Back then she attacked anyone who critizied Chavez, she claimed he had not and would not make changes to the constitution, he and she were not soolcists or communits, and so on and so one. Ahe also attacked another Venezuelan for posting his concerns in the same way she attacked you.

    I, along with many posters on this thread were all present back then, and we all tried to address and reason with her about her abusive vile discourse. She has choosen not to change Julia.

    I, like you, first thought she should be edited off the thread given the sheer amount of editing the comments editor has to apply to her posts to keep them within the BC comment rules. I realized though it is best to allow her to show the true face of the Hugo Chavez chavistas for all to see. If you look at it this way you come to appreciate her.

    I choose back in 2006 not to engage her directly any more for all the same reasons you have expressed. My last direct post to her was a polite sign off, and I have never posted directly to her since then. I am not suggesting that you should, or should not, do the same, that is up to you.

    Seeing that you want to post your own opinion pieces here on BC regarding Hugo Chavez take over of your country, I thought a little history on your attackers was in order.

    You can also review the concerns for the safety of Venezuelan posters that several of us back then had concerning moonraven (aka “marthe raymond” – the name she used back then)

    May last post to her can be found at.

    #221 — September 27, 2006 @ 23:34PM — Franco

    Concerns for the safety of Venezuelan commenting here on BC can be found in the following comment posts.

    #521 — October 6, 2006 @ 22:29PM — Franco
    #523 — October 6, 2006 @ 22:42PM — Dave Nalle
    #528 — October 6, 2006 @ 23:33PM — Clavos
    #536 — October 7, 2006 @ 04:09AM — Dave Nalle
    #540 — October 7, 2006 @ 12:09PM — Clavos
    #541 — October 7, 2006 @ 12:12PM — Franco
    #543 — October 7, 2006 @ 13:12PM — Dave Nalle
    #544 — October 7, 2006 @ 13:16PM — Franco

    Everything can be reviewed here, Hugo Chavez – One Man Axis of Crazy

    Nothing to really worry about, just breast your cards.

    Never surrender, not even when it gets really dangerious and ugly, which I am sure it will.

  • moonraven

    You need to READ better: I said you were trying to GET a boyfriend by doing the anti-Chavez dance. Ir’s not my fault if you aren’t one of the venezolana beauty queens.

    I have not given you permission to use the TU form with me. Do you do that without permission to other professors?

    All you have done is put your fingers in your ears and scream since you appeared here.

    No facts, no info, no refutations of MY facts and info–nor of the facts and info of other people–educated people, aware people, people who spend QUALITY time in your country.

    Please continue posting here, though [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. Just do not try to engage me until you begin to tell us the history of Venezuela: starting with El Negro Miguel.

  • moonraven

    Right, franco: She is such a classy little girl that she uses the TU form to me–and calls me abuela.

    Here in Mexico kids with class and manners don’t behave badly like that. Not even campesinos.

    You also need to learn English, as NOTHING that you indicate that I posted–even during the time when you ILLEGALLY posted my IP address in Mexico–was ever posted by me, under any name.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Franco, can any commenter find out my IP address on here?. I’m not afraid of her, I have other issues to concern, worry and be afraid of, here at home. But once again, you are right, I have said good bye to her and she has said good bye to me many times, so its time to cut the vicious circle. What it makes me sick is not that she disagree with me. Thru the years I have hold many discussions with Chavez supporters, Venezuelan and foreigner Chavez supporters and not even in the worse cases I had experience that kind of language and those insults out of nowhere. It just impressed me, more than it should. So do not be worried, I’ll cut it and hope I dont have to fear of my safety because of this woman.

  • moonraven

    Franco posted my IP address on this thread in September 2006. I did not post HIS.

    He was given that address by Dave Nalle. ILLEGALLY.

    Julia reminds me of some of the horror stories about young women who use the Internet to find boyfriends, and are lead to their deaths by the men they meet in the web.

    I am not suggesting that Nalle and Franco are internet predators. Not for a minute.

    But gullible young women–who believe anything that they are told by WHITE men–are perfect victims for men who ARE internet predators.

    Or non-internet predators, for that matter.

    She should not say I didn’t warn her.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    MR, this thread did not exist in September of 2006. As far as I know he has never posted your IP address. If he did I don’t know how he got it because he doesn’t have access to the IP address records of users and none of our editors gave it to him.

    Now there are ways to obtain IP addresses of users using external utilities. I’m not that familiar with them, but I think it can be done.

    But since you post from an internet cafe who cares if he has your IP address, it’s not even yours. And you’re the one making death threats here, not Franco.

    Dave

  • Franco

    Dave,

    To correct this slander against you, I would like to clear up a few facts, something all of us know moonraven has a lot of pitfalls with.

    What I posted back over a year ago was not, I repeat, not her IP address, it was her GPS coordinates in Mexico from where she claims to live and use a computer to post to BC. This is when she used the name “marthe raymond” which she has now proved who moonraven is.

    Her GPS coordinates were easily obtainable on the internet from the information she herself freely provided in her posting in telling us where she lived, worked, and used the internet. This information could be looked up by anyone interested in GPS.

    As you will remember, several of us discovered moonraven (aka marthe raymond) real name was Marthe Ruth Wolf Raymond from a SWP front group she link us to that had her full name listed at the bottom. Hence you will notice in my post an appropriate reference to this when I posted.

    Here is my post:

    ———————————————————-
    #286 — September 30, 2006 @ 23:45PM — Franco

    Opperation Running Wolfe

    S of Anenecuilco
    N of Nueva Olintepec
    18°46′N 98°59′W, 1220 meters
    ———————————————————–

    Now if she wants to argue that this is here IP address, she has the right, and you can chalk it up with all her other deceitful claims.

    In your best “Ace Ventura” impersonation, can you say……….

    LLLAAUUUUUUUUUUZZZZZZEEEERRRRRRRR!

  • Franco

    #279 —Julia_1984

    Julia,

    No she can not, nor can anyone else get your IP address when you post on BC. However, if you provide links in your posts that go outside of BC to any personal blogs or webpages of yours or where you work, then she could get those IP addresses if she had half a brain. You be the judge.

    If you provide links outside of BC to any other blog, or webpage that’s not yours, no one on BC can get your IP address.

    She could get your GPS coordinate location if your too specific on where you live, work, or post on the internet, (meaning names of towns, streets, stores, or offices, etc). For as you can clearly see from my last post, I pulled down her pants on this. Believe me, it wasn’t’ pretty.

    Another word of caution: The Venezuelan government my already be monitoring IP address from within Venezuela. They could be filtering and watching intent communications going from Venezuela to the world, and coming back again. They could be collecting data files for review at a later date for who is for and against Hugo Chavez. We know he already pulled this trap on the voters of the referendum in 2004 and posted their names for all of Venezuela to see. If Chavez is willing to do that publicly, what is he doing secretly?

    In any and all of these cases, be aware we are actively engaging in internet discussions concerning your county under the siege of the man Hugo Chavez, and assuredly very troubled and dangerous times are coming for anyone who dose not pledge their allegiance to him, and I am sorry for that, so remember, discretion is the better part valor.

    I’m not trying to freak you out, but lets be honest, what you do is considered counter revolutionary. Make not mistake, Chavez is play for keeps, he didn’t buy the Russian license to build the new factory to manufacture hundreds of thousands of new AK103 assault rifles with the latest technology in night scopes just to smell the grease. The only way to beat him is to let him beat himself. Your job is to stay off of his shit list in the mean time.

    Once his factories are built and pumping out the rifles, Chavez will be handing them out to, not only his military, state police, and special forces, but he has already stated that he intends to hand them out to the chavistas masses though out the country that he is planning to use as his eyes and ears for enforcement to use against someone like you.

    Chavez will make his own mistakes and as a result not everyone is going to go along with it. When a portion of that tide tunes against him, those assault rifles are not going back to Chavez.

    I know this is horrifying to think about, and you surly do not have to think like this, but Chavez does think like this and he is not only not afraid of it, he is a professional trained militia commando. Killing is there business and business can be as good as they want it to be. That’s the real horror in all of this.

    A last word of caution. It would be a good idea for you to put a chunk of money away, and tell no one, and never spend it on anything. If a day comes that you find you have to get out of the county, by that time money will be hard to get. If you have it saved already, you should be able to get out if and when you have to. To bribe an official to help get you out of the country, if Chavez has a price on your head, your bribe will have to be more then the price Chavez has set. Since there is no way of knowing that at this time, save as much as you think your life is worth.

    I am sorry if I am freaking you out. I just thought I should tell you the truth as I see it coming. And I hope everyone proves me wrong.

    For now, go ahead and post your comments and your opinion pieces here on BC and as you do, be smart about any suspicious characters here on BC and in Venezuela wanting to now more about who you are and what you doing.

  • Franco

    #269 — Lapdog

    “It’s talking about thousands of murders of citizens by the military and secret police, actual death squads, political assassinations and worse.”

    This must be Iraq under US occupation you’re writing about. It’s all sanctioned by the US and the UK.

    No Lapdog, it is talking about Venezuela, and most importantly it is coming from a neutral source.

    The American Convention on Human Rights of the Organization of American States (IACHM-OAS) is a Human Rights Commission specifically working within the American States and has been well respected and active since Hugo Chavez was 15 years old.

    The IACHM-OAS has been seeking Hugo Chavezs’ permission since 2006 to be allowed into Venezuela to investigate their concerns as outlined in their 2006 Annula Report on Venezuela , and Hugo Chavez will not allow the IACHR-OAS into Venezuela. Why?

    The reason for the IACHR-OAS is now becoming so concerned, are the many changes Hugo Chavez has been making to the governments accountability, the judges appointments, and the increasing number of killings by police and government squads and the lack of criminal investigations and or prosecutions.

    The other obvious reason for the IACHR-OAS concerns are the fact that back in 2002 Hugo Chavez allowed them into Venezuela to investigate the coup against him, and the IACHM-OAS found in favor of Hugo Chavez. This testifies to the IACHM-OAS neutrality for both the benefit of Chavez and the world.

    So why won’t Hugo Chavez allow them in now to investigate the troubling information assembled by the IACHM-OAS that concerns violations of human rights?

    The link to this full report can be found in post #221 “2006 Annual Report on Venezuela”

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Thanks for clearing that up, Franco. I was pretty sure she was dead wrong, but I couldn’t remember exactly what had really happened.

    It amazes me that she can lie over and over and over again and have it all sitting out open and exposed and yet still keep yammering away. And then she thinks that anyone is going to believe her when she makes her ridiculous statements and pathetic attempts at misdirection.

    But what’s really amazing is that the discussion has managed to draw some marginally less narcissistic, but equally ideologically deluded people like Brian and Lapdog. And it’s like all three of them are reading from some sort of playbook, though I give MR points for adding her own insane flare to it.

    Their arguments go by the numbers. First deny, then demand evidence, then either deny the evidence or claim it was never provided (despite the obvious visible record), then start attacking the opposition with personal insults, then claim they are elitists or oligarchs or paid by the ‘enemy’, then accuse them of racism, then start making bizarre ad hominem attacks and misdirections like bringing up the treatment of aboriginal people. And then start the whole process over again.

    The fact that we’ve got three of them here following basically the same game plan makes it all that much more transparent. Do they really think that they are fooling anyone or winning over converts by their behavior?

    And then there’s the ultimate question of why the hell they’re so fanatically devoted to a failed and intellectually bankrupt ideology. What do they get out of it? Obviously they aren’t at the top of the heap of international socialism, so I hope that someone is paying them well for their services.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Franco, why don’t you explain to our dear readers why you took it upon yourself to publish the GPS coordinates of the location where Marthe Raymond accessed the internet?

    She didn’t go out of her way to obscure her whereabouts, but if she had wanted to draw us a map she would have done so.

    And if your friend JOM is around perhaps he could explain why, while you were tracking her, he was busy Googling the name Marthe Raymond and advising Dave Nalle to do likewise.

    Julia, “I am sorry if I am freaking you out. I just thought I should tell you the truth as I see it coming.”

    “For now, go ahead and post your comments and your opinion pieces here on BC and as you do, be smart about any suspicious characters here on BC and in Venezuela wanting to now more about who you are and what you doing.”

    BTW. And be especially on the lookout for creeps from Chile. Right, Franco!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lap, MR did post here under her own name originally, and provided all of the rest of the information which has been used to identify her whereabouts. It’s understandable that people might be curious about her given her bizarre behavior, harassment and even death threats.

    Hell, do a google search on her, you’ll find out more than you probably want to know.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Lapdog,

    Marthe Raymond did post here under her own name originally. If you pay attention, you’ll notice that when I write to her, I write to her under her own name.

    Moonraven is a persona, a mask. Marthe is a person, who actually exists. When I address her, I address her as a person. And when she writes to me, she writes as a person. Even though she disagrees with me violently on a number of issues, she has also come to my defense.

    We disagree with each other, but we respect each other.

    It’s easy to fall into the habit of assuming evil in another because they disagree with you, or to impute the views of those you dislike upon those with whom you disagree.

    It is more difficult to attempt to see what the person is really saying behind the rhetoric.

  • Clavos

    “And then there’s the ultimate question of why the hell they’re so fanatically devoted to a failed and intellectually bankrupt ideology. What do they get out of it? Obviously they aren’t at the top of the heap of international socialism, so I hope that someone is paying them well for their services.”

    One word:

    Sheeple.

  • troll

    *And then there’s the ultimate question of why the hell they’re so fanatically devoted to a failed and intellectually bankrupt ideology.*

    while I question the premise that they have presented any coherent ideology here – which is the most disappointing part of their performance – it’s clear that they are united in opposition to hunger and ignorance and exploitation

    and Chavez has a chance to do something about these problems in Venezuela

    what’s their option – ?

    to accept ‘first world’ hegemony and US leadership as the natural order of things as Dave does despite history’s violent (and ongoing) lessons – ?

    corporate capitalism hasn’t worked for the world’s have-nots – and there’s no reason to believe that it will at some point in the future

    …not ‘sheeple’ – rather ‘seekers’

  • troll

    …what they need to keep in mind is that if it works at all then it works for all –

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    while I question the premise that they have presented any coherent ideology here – which is the most disappointing part of their performance – it’s clear that they are united in opposition to hunger and ignorance and exploitation

    No, troll. You’re projecting here. You sympathize and you want to think that they are like you and have good intentions, but you’re just wrong. They are with Chavez because he’s against America. They don’t actually care about hunger, ignorance or exploitation, they care about promoting a marxist, anti-american agenda and Chavez is their point man of the moment.

    and Chavez has a chance to do something about these problems in Venezuela

    And isn’t doing it.

    what’s their option – ?

    To tell the truth? That might be nice.

    to accept ‘first world’ hegemony and US leadership as the natural order of things as Dave does despite history’s violent (and ongoing) lessons – ?

    The first world is no better or worse than the third world. The ideology they promote originates in the first world, as do they and their compatriots.

    The argument here is not between first and third world, it’s between freedom and human rights vs. statist oppression.

    corporate capitalism hasn’t worked for the world’s have-nots – and there’s no reason to believe that it will at some point in the future

    This isn’t actually true. If you look at the record, in every country where international corporations set up business incomes have increased substantially and employment has expanded massively. MR and her buddies would call this exploitation, but when you can earn $2 a day working for an international business instead of the $1 a day you were earning before they came, your income is still double what it was.

    Dave

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    Response to #282 Franco

    Don’t worry Franco, since 2002 many members of my family and friends had suffered threats and injuries, I’m pretty much aware of the dangers of this revolution but no precaution is enough, at the end they would use any excuse to beat you and to find you, no matter who you are. People who support the government had also suffered the consequences of plain intolerance so you tend to think that to protect yourself or to worry way too much about it its pointless at the end. I do not want to leave my country without fighting enough against it. I will only leave the country if my life its in danger and I have the oportunity to leave it, which is not exactly what I have right now. I take basic common sense protection strategies like don’t provide my real name or address. The rest I’m in risk, as a lot of Venezuelans are at the moment. And there is nothing I can do about it. Your words are nothing, compared to the stuff I have seen here, despite my young age.

  • moonraven

    Several things are apparent here:

    1. No one has posted any Venezuela information since I left yesterday. None of you knows any.

    Not even that Chavez said it’s going to 100 bucks a barrel and that Bush is getting closer to the madhouse with his threats on Wednesday to drop nuclear bombs on just about everybody and buy Mexico for 7 billion bucks.

    2. The foxes that guard the henhouse on blogcritics have some new young chicken to chew on. One who is willing to exchange e-mail addresses and who cares not a whit about privacy, yet claims to fear for her life–from the Chavez government, and now from ME.

    Something smells here.

    3. The new young chicken is highly suspect because she showed up here precisely when others of her ilk were in the streets in Caracas marching towards AN, under the orders of the “student leader”, Stalin Gonzales. (I cannot get over that name!)

    4. As even young chickens can’t be marching and posting simultaneously, why did she appear out of the blue here at that moment and expect to convince us of her counter-revolutionary dedication?

    5. Since the cable companies all originate in Miami, and she supposedly is posting through one, I am VERY suspicious that the young chicken is NOT in Venezuela at all–and certainly not in Caracas–but in Miami, like all the other ersatz venezolano/as that have posted here.

    6. Folks living in Miami are not eyewitnesses to events in Caracas. Hence the young chicken’s ONE claim to legitimacy–not to being RIGHT, but to being THERE–is false.

    Better luck next time, Nalle.

    Gotcha again.

  • moonraven

    I find it VERY interesting that you yellow dogs all follow ME around the globe checking my GPS and IP info–with a few dramatic misses, such as when Nalle claimed I was posting from Beijing when I was actually posting from Bahrain–with almost as much foolish diligence as my hapless CIA shadows, and you have yet to turn up any dirt on me.

    Either you are even more inept than I believe you to be–or I am a fucking saint!

  • Lapdog

    I know that Franco will want to explain why he posted Marthe Raymond’s GPS location, but for now let’s examine Dave Nalle’s response to my question to Franco.

    Nalle: “MR did post here under her own name originally, and provided all of the rest of the information which has been used to identify her whereabouts. It’s understandable that people might be curious about her given her bizarre behavior, harassment and even death threats.”

    Franco posted the GPS information on Marthe Raymond in the archived thread: ‘Hugo Chavez – One Man Axis of Crazy’ #286 — September 30, 2006 @ 23:45PM.

    The archived material shows that Nalle did not agree with MR’s views on the Venezuela situation, so in #87 he joined in with the numerous ad hominem attacks on her by calling her “a Marxist stooge”.

    Up to that point she had been civil although she was being treated like dirt by some of the posters. This was commented on at the time by Adam Ash.

    Any “bizarre behavior and harrasment” up to and including Franco’s posting of the GPS information came from Nalle and his supporters.

    There were no so-called “death threats” made by Marthe Raymond. None whatsoever.

    The archives prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that Dave Nalle is flat-out lying.

    The archives prove to anyone who reads them that Franco posted MR’s GPS location because she is a supporter of Hugo Chavez. And for no other reason than that.

    It takes a bit of time to go through 286 posts but it’s worth it if you’re new here and don’t know Nalle and Franco’s history.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    I know what comes next “Julia is being paid by the CIA”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Lap, there are a lot more than 286 posts to go through if you want the full history of MR’s narcissistic behavior on this site. It’s hardly confined to the Hugo Chavez threads and certainly not to the one you mention.

    I do love the way that when totally unable to prove your arguments or bring up any facts to contradict those presented here, you resort to calling me a liar or making it into a discussion of personalities. Any distraction technique is fine, so long as we stop talking about Chavez, right?

    BTW, if you wanted to see one of MR’s death threats you would only have to scroll up on this thread, but not surprisingly our comment editor deleted it.

    Oh, and as for where Julia is posting from, the cable service she uses breaks down IPs by location and if you use her IP address it specifically locates the town in Venezuela where she’s located, so once again MR is full of bull.

    And BTW, last I checked even in Venezuela student protest marches were not mandatory – at least not when they are anti-government.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Not a chance, Miss Miami.

    You are not worth being paid. And you have no information and connections that would interest the CIA.

    Not even the inept agents that follow me all around the planet.

  • moonraven

    Apparently Chris found my original post identifying Miss Miami fakeroo and posted it. Thanks.

    Of course I could have backed into the Miami caper by simple observation of her lack of any information about Venezuela–neither of its history nor its present situation.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I frequently recommend that new posters read that Chavez thread from Sept. 21, 2006, because all the filth of the blogcritics males is smeared all over it. Archetypal redneck rubism.

    Lapdog had the presence of mind to check it out, and it paid off with lots of information on you guys as well as the abusive misogynist dynamic.

    Nalle and Co: This is a public forum, WITH ARCHIVES. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] They will come back to haunt you.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Lapdog

    “Lap, there are a lot more than 286 posts to go through if you want the full history of MR’s narcissistic behavior on this site. It’s hardly confined to the Hugo Chavez threads and certainly not to the one you mention.”

    There are many more threads and posts with your name attached to them showing your modus operandi, and since Julia was concerned about being ‘outed’ it’s best that she knows what you and Franco are all about.

    You lied about Marthe Raymond in this thread and the proof of your lying is easily corroborated by your own posts in the archives.

    You lied.

  • moonraven

    I finished reading the Bart Jones biography of Hugo Chavez (¡Hugo!: The Hugo Chavez Story from Mud Hut to Perpetual Revolution) last night.

    While Jones, who writes for Newsday and spent several years in Venezuela–first as a Maryknoll and then 5 years as an AP reporter, is not an exciting writer to read, his book brings several advantages to the table:

    1. It’s very well researched–and at well over 500 pages, of which the last 50 or so are bibliographic references, it covers the arc of Chavez’ life quite thoroughly without bogging down.

    2. It also includes information from Jones’ interviews with Chavez–especially the several hours he spent with him in April of this year. (Several of the writers of recent bios of Chavez have never even talked with him! Even this poster has done that, and I find it unconscionable that someone would publish a bio of a living person whom they have never even met!)

    3. The writer’s background implies an interest and dedication to social justice, but he presents the pluses and minuses of the Chavez government very even-handedly.

    4. He includes information and comments from the Venezuelan opposition–although in many cases the less said the better about that, as much of it is very similar to the kind of paranoid hysteria and crying wolf and hatred that we have seen on this site.

    Since the book is in English, and is the most complete bio so far, I recommend it highly to those of you interested in the Bolivarian project who do not speak or read Spanish.

    Furthermore, I think it should be REQUIRED reading for the folks who have posted several “articles” (read hate screeds) about Chavez during the past year or so–as some very basic information about the man and his country is missing from their treatments (this might even give them a clue as to which continent Venezuela belongs to, for example.)

  • Franco

    #284 –Dave Nalle

    Dave, I agree with you whole heatedly. They do clearly expose this habitual behavior of avoiding and denying real and justifiable concerns on important matters taking place in Venezuala,i.e., the IACHR-OAS 2006 report on Venezuela.

    But I’m not as amazed by their denial and avoidance on these issues as you are.

    This habitual behavior is resident in the progressive left. They can not enter into the arena of ideas and debate and win. They know that. So they have to turn away from any truly factual topics of debate, and attack us personally, discredit us, to try and silence what they can not allow to be discussed/debated. They know they do it, and they know why they do it.

    It serves them when they see us trying point this out to them our of our frustration because the topic never gets explored with discussed/debate. Their tactics work.

    In other words, they know it’s irrational and they don’t care as long as they can keep us engaged with them in a cycle of discussion/debate about anything else but the facts on the table, we will never be able to discuss it. They know that and it is at the heart of their behavior.

    So much for there standard games.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • troll

    Martha – in what way does your act holds Dave accountable – ?

    …as often as not it just makes you seem obsessive and irrational

    I’d really like to see the creative and constructive side more often

    thanks for the Jones recommendation…I’m off to the bookstore tomorrow

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Apparently Chris found my original post identifying Miss Miami fakeroo and posted it. Thanks.

    Actually, I did that. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Of course I could have backed into the Miami caper by simple observation of her lack of any information about Venezuela–neither of its history nor its present situation.

    She’s posted more first hand, detailed information about life in Venezuela in two days than you’ve posted here in a year.

    I frequently recommend that new posters read that Chavez thread from Sept. 21, 2006, because all the filth of the blogcritics males is smeared all over it. Archetypal redneck rubism.

    What amazes me is that I think MR actually believes that directing people to read those past threads will do anything [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]. She actually thinks that rational people will see things the way she does when it’s obviously not the case.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Nalle and Co: This is a public forum, WITH ARCHIVES. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] They will come back to haunt you.

    We deal in truth and certainly have nothing to fear from it.

    BTW I doubt the CIA is wasting time following you. Surely they have better things to do with their time.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I also find the incestuousness promoted by Nalle in regard to anyone who presents himself as anti-Chavez to be highly unprofessional, to say the LEAST.

    I have no control over who can be a writer here and I’ve invited many people, yourself included, to put their thoughts in a more coherent form as an article.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Julia seems to be made of pretty stern stuff. But imagine how many people they have intimidated into silence who we don’t know about or like the two other Venezuelans posting on this thread. And imagine that this same scenario is going on all over the internet. In the aggregate their bully tactics may work more often than not as people decide it’s just not worth it to stand up to them.

    Dave

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Clavos and I who are the main supporters of the people of Venezuela here ‘

    Another fatuos claim from dave. Which Venezuelan people are u referring to? The barrio poor or the penthouse rich?It certainly cant be both!

    ‘ liberal valeus of life, liberty and property and of the rights of people everywhere to be free.”‘

    The why dont you do something abouit your government which has done a great deal to rob both americans and others of these valuse you cherish? EG Paul Bremer in iraq privatised iraqs economy, putting it in the hands of US corporations..not iraq people.
    Chavez has done a great deal to return private property to the venzeualan people, after it had been taken over by foreigners.
    You seem to be really defending the rights of foreign capital Dave, THATS why u attack the Venezuelans.

  • brian

    Marjorie Cohn on Chavez, US coup etc: Former U.S. Navy intelligence officer Wayne Madsen told the Guardian that our navy helped with communications jamming support to the Venezuelan military during the would-be coup. An American plane was present on the island to which Chavez was whisked away. The Bush administration provided financial backing to key participants in the coup attempt, which resulted in the deaths of 19 people.

    Chavez incurred the wrath of Team Bush by championing the interests of the working class over the oil-igarchy in Venezuela. The fifth largest oil supplier in the world, Venezuela is a key provider of U.S. petroleum. By using oil profits to help his people instead of the multinational corporations, Chavez created an alternative model to Bush-backed neoliberal globalization.

    So majorie agrees with me and not dave, That Chavez champions the working poor in Venezuela and elsewhere

  • brian

    ‘So why won’t Hugo Chavez allow them in now to investigate the troubling information assembled by the IACHM-OAS that concerns violations of human rights?’

    Is this the same OAS that has failed to investigate vote fraud in the US? Or could it be the OAS is not as impartial as we are led to believe?
    Given the masses of evidence of vote fraud in the US, its strange this organisation is silent

  • brian

    Dave: ‘No, troll. You’re projecting here. You sympathize and you want to think that they are like you and have good intentions, but you’re just wrong. They are with Chavez because he’s against America. They don’t actually care about hunger, ignorance or exploitation, they care about promoting a marxist, anti-american agenda and Chavez is their point man of the moment.’

    Me: Whose projecting dave? Your whole post is one big projection.on Chavez as cult maniac…
    Next, ‘America'(aka th US govt adn its media lackeys) attacked Chavez both before during and after the coup…it was then Chavez turned on the US government(not ‘america’)

    Dave: ‘To tell the truth? That might be nice.’

    Me: Yes dave that WOULD be nice…why dont you try to follow that bit fo sane advice? You can begin by not using ‘america’ where you mean US government’.

    Dave: ‘The first world is no better or worse than the third world. The ideology they promote originates in the first world, as do they and their compatriots.’

    Me: the first world has a great deal more power. The bolivarian revolution is one ideology that originatde in the third world.

    Dave: ‘The argument here is not between first and third world, it’s between freedom and human rights vs. statist oppression.’

    Me: This is really odd given the venezuelan media and its class is the OLD state! Youir comment about state oppression makes sense with the US state repressing dissent both in those countries its attacked and its own people, thru its war on terror ideology..

  • Clavos

    “By using oil profits to help his people instead of the multinational corporations, Chavez created an alternative model to Bush-backed neoliberal globalization.”

    This is BS rhetoric designed to confuse the naive.

    The revenue the chavista government receives for its oil is not “profit,” it’s income, derived from the sale of the country’s only significant natural resource, oil.

    When Venezuela sell its oil, who do you think is buying it? As you correctly pointed out, the US is the primary market for Venezuelan oil, but I’m certainly not calling Chavez up and saying “Hugo, you monkey face, I need another tank of gas.”

    Venezuela is selling that oil to the international oil companies (including Citgo, which they own) that you so despise. They, in turn, are selling it to consumers here in the US and worldwide, and (gasp, the horror! The horror!) making a profit — on Venezuelan oil!!

    Oil is fungible, brian. It has no nationality.

  • Clavos

    Interesting that brian links, in comment #309, to a group that blames the so-called voter fraud in the US on, among other things, the touch-screen computerized voting machines, THE PRINCIPAL MANUFACTURER OF WHICH IS A VENEZUELAN COMPANY.

    And, of course, this same company is the only supplier of voting machines to….ta-da….wait for it….that’s right, folks! You guessed it!!….THE CHAVISTA GOVERNMENT!!

  • troll

    *If you look at the record, in every country where international corporations set up business incomes have increased substantially and employment has expanded massively.*

    how to interpret the impact of corporations can be argued – if the capitalist corporation is such a boon to society why is there an impoverished class in Venezuela supporting Chavez – ? it’s not like corporatism is a new thing there

    …and a history of ‘corruption’ isn’t the answer – corruption is just individuals acting out Smith’s paradigm…part and parcel of capitalism

    *MR and her buddies would call this exploitation, but when you can earn $2 a day working for an international business instead of the $1 a day you were earning before they came, your income is still double what it was.*

    …don’t be concerned by the man behind that screen – or by the fact that the greater mass of folks who continue to bring home $1 can only buy 2/3 of what they used to be able to or by the fact that traditional relations of production are disrupted and many folks can’t even come up with that $1

    thanks to the corporate capitalist (and those who invest in him) for improving the lot of the few…now how do we see to the needs of the rest – ?

  • brian

    Clavos:’When Venezuela sell its oil, who do you think is buying it? As you correctly pointed out, the US is the primary market for Venezuelan oil, but I’m certainly not calling Chavez up and saying “Hugo, you monkey face, I need another tank of gas.”‘

    Clavos, please explain that rerference to ‘Monkey face’. And why wasnt that racist comment treated as are others by having it edited out?

  • brian

    ‘Venezuela is selling that oil to the international oil companies (including Citgo, which they own) that you so despise. They, in turn, are selling it to consumers here in the US and worldwide, and (gasp, the horror! The horror!) making a profit — on Venezuelan oil!!’

    AS you admitted..,the profits are being used to aid the Venezuerlan people…not to enrich the already rich…you are the one confusing the naieve, Clavos.

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘Interesting that brian links, in comment #309, to a group that blames the so-called voter fraud in the US on, among other things, the touch-screen computerized voting machines, THE PRINCIPAL MANUFACTURER OF WHICH IS A VENEZUELAN COMPANY.’

    Really! You mean DIEBOLD is a venezuelan company? Diebold is the company behind the 2004 election fraud. This company is owned by an american and is incorporated in the US.

    So whats this venezuelan nonsense got to do with vote fraud in the US!
    Diebold by the way refused to allow its code to be investigated as it claims private property rights (the private property fetish in the US at its most absurd)…..the same code is used to count YOUR votes, yet noone but DIEBOLD was ever allowed to examine it…
    Till Bevb Harris got a copy.

    Venezuela DOES us vote machines, but these have a paper trail and code that is available for anyone even dumb americans to examine.

  • brian

    ‘If you look at the record, in every country where international corporations set up business incomes have increased substantially and employment has expanded massively.*’

    It had to be Dave….the defender of the right oif the poor…..Dave is pro-sweatshop…

    By ‘every counrty’ Dave means places like china indonesia, mexico etc…the same countries employ sweatshop labor, wages are so low that the international corporations find this aspect useful to maximise profist…thats whats meant by ‘employment has expanded massively’

    JohnPilger did a documentary on this, and Naomi Kleins No Logo goes inside the sweatshops that lie behind brandnames. Maybe Dave should get off his behind and go visit one of these places…theres some just across the border in Mexico.

  • Lapdog

    Clavos, your link in #313 wasn’t helpful at all.

    The site should be re-named… Real Clear As Mud Politics.

  • troll

    Marthe – what is fascinating is that your persona believes that shit

  • moonraven

    WHICH shit?

    There are SOOOOOO many kinds of shit on this site.

    Blogcritics is more than knee-deep in it.

  • moonraven

    In fact, troll, I had to buy a new pair of Ferragamo boots: Just for wearing while visiting this site.

    I debated that decision, as I do feel uncomfortable buying the same stuff that Conbdolence Rice buys–but since she is ten years younger than I am, I RATIONALIZED, IN US STYLE, that I had been wearing Ferragamos since I was 18 and she was only 8 and therefore for ME they were untainted by her buying them in 2005 while other African Americans were drowning in Louisiana because they didn’t have the price of ONE PAIR to escape to higher ground.

  • troll

    I understand about those boots – had to stop wearing waffle stompers myself

    Marthe – I went back and reread you first interaction with BC and was reminded of how glad I was to see your pov presented so clearly and how I was looking forward to reading your take on things…and then you went into your reactionary street theater mode where you’ve pretty much been stuck since

    why do you blather on so about what Dave and Clavos have to say – ?

  • moonraven

    Troll,

    I guess you don’t keep up with this site?

    When I posted under my own name [edited by comments editor] in that thread about Chavez you will see that they let fly with everything they could think of to get me to STOP POSTING.

    Why?

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] I REGULARLY VISIT VENEZUELA, know its people and its president, have a boyfriend there, create theater projects for Venezuela, am invited to speak about it by churches and universities in this hemisphere and in the Middle East–and therefore have first-hand evidence to refute their nonsensical postings.

    I live in Latin Ameica–and have done so for 15 years–not as a gringo snowbird el cheapo beepo lifestyle seeker, but as an active, productive person in a rural community who also teaches and trains teachers in addition to forming coops and theater groups for campesinos. I live with a campesino family, and I see that their kids go to school and have shoes on their feet and food on the table. In short, I have what no one else on this site has: CREDIBILITY.

    I have explained in the past that since there is no civilized ambience on this site, I will maintain the persona of moonraven until that changes.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    I’ll be back when the personal attacks between commenters stop, and we can have a civilized discussion on the issues concerned to my country. I regret of the times I ever answered to these personal attacks in a way that ended up with another personal attack and so, I contribute to the vicious circle.
    I don’t really want to keep being part of another soup opera and without any intention of being pessimistic, I can’t hardly see any sense of understanding, tolerance and respect on this thread. To kill one person’ stances because of their race, class, education or nationality is to kill any free thinking possibility and start an enviroment filled with hate and discrimination.
    I came to this forum because I wanted to inform the readers about my country in the best way I thought I could, which was from my personal experience as a Venezuelan born, raised and currently living in Caracas – despite how many commenters put this between question marks, I have not lied about this.
    I didn’t want to pretend that this was the experience of all Venezuelans, neither it was the whole truth, but rather to invite the commenters to have a more open mind and stop looking at my country’s situation as a black and white trouble. I wanted to show the colors between.
    I don’t know if I have failed while I was doing this or, if on the other hand, my fight was lost from the start. In both cases, it is a very sad situation because, while many commenters get lost in personal attacks, outside Venezuela; inside Venezuela citizens of one side or another of the political spectrum and beyond the economical crisis, suffers the consequences of this division directly.
    None of you can help any Venezuelan to get out of this and even if you could, I don’t want that help, wathever we must do, we have to do it alone. All I ask, is to learn from ourselves, for the better or the worse, to collect our memories for the world because perhaps it could be useful for a greater understanding of the political phenomenon in process of great changes (I hold the pretension of someday, become an academic, so I always support the advances on this matter). Perhaps it could be useful in some other context and only then I’ll know that all the words I write now, are not for nothing.
    About my future article for this page.. Dave, I have not get any mail from the editor yet and I want to start working as soon as possible in order to bring to this discussion a new air (or well, to make it a real discussion instead of an ilogic language battle)
    Regards

  • moonraven

    Troll,

    I will probably start reading Gregory Wilpert’s book, Changing Venezuela by Taking Power sometime tomorrow, and will probably have comments about it Tuesday. I know it will be more “academic” than Jones’ book, as Greg is a former Fulbright Scholar and sociologist.

    He has been living in Venezuela for about 8 years, and he and I began corresponding the weekend of the ephemeral coup in April of 2002.

    He oversees the venezuelanalysis website–which if memory serves me he started up in the summer of 2003–right around the time I jumped from Mexico to an Ecuadorian university.

    It’s too cold here in Mexico City–I am heading for home where it is warmer.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    MoonRaven, I smiled when you directly, instead of given some value to my words, said that they were the words of someone else. This can only mean that you think my words (finally) have a value, so you cant believe they are mine. I cheer this small achievement.

    I have never doubt, not even for a second, of your career, work, and visits to my country. So I’m going to ask you to do the same with me, we have to discuss in a level of trust and I can’t discuss with you if you don’t trust me being a caraqueña living in Caracas. The last and only time I was in Miami, I was 10 years old. That was like 12 years ago.

    Google “The end of Venezuela as I know it”, this will leave you to my blog, take a look at it, read. If you want more sources, check the links I have there. If you want even more sources, I can provide them to you.

    If we trust each other at least a little bit we can have a very productive discussion and then agree that we are, and we will always be, disagree on certain issues.

    But by making paranoid assumptions such as I live in Miami, I have learned english in a formal education enviroment, I’m a rich girl or the latest, my comments are being edited; theres no much I can do. You decide, if you want a dialogue or a battle. And you must know, that if you want the second option, I wont be available for it.

    Either way, you made me smile today, by considering that my words were so good that they couldn’t be my own. Thank you. No matter how many proves I provide you of who I am and what do I write, no proof is enough for those who refuse to belief – some people say. And in this case I would have to add, for those who refuse to trust.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    He oversees the venezuelanalysis website–which if memory serves me he started up in the summer of 2003–right around the time I jumped from Mexico to an Ecuadorian university.

    Wipert being the guy who’s described as Venezuela’s unofficial minister of propaganda. I’m sure his book will be nice and neutral. LOL.

    Dave

  • Franco

    Dave

    Julia sez….at the end of her post #324……About my future article for this page.. Dave, I have not get any mail from the editor yet and I want to start working as soon as possible in order to bring to this discussion a new air (or well, to make it a real discussion instead of an ilogic language battle)

    Is BC experiencing a little red tape issue or something?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Not sure what’s going on there, Franco. I kind of lost track of this thread when CR decided to just start deleting entire slews of posts on it, but at least it brought Julia’s problem back to the forefront. I’ll email and see what’s up.

    Dave

  • Franco

    #324 — Julia_1984
    #326 — Julia_1984

    Julia,

    You are a breath of fresh air. You have said many thoughtful things. I’m am truly taken with your good character and secure spirit.

    I sincerely hope moonraven takes your olive branch, and that Lapdog and Brian see the value in it también. That will be their choice to make. They would be wise to do it.

    Either way Julia, write your heart out, your English is coming to us loud and clear.

    Myself, along with many other people here on BC look forward to seeing the first caraqueña living in Caracas Venezuela to ever post opinion pieces on BC on the events taking place that are important to you within your government, within your city, within your people.

    Yo doy la bienvenida su espíritu.

  • Franco

    #329 — Dave Nalle

    I kind of lost track of this thread when CR decided to just start deleting entire slews of posts on it

    I know what you mean, what the hell is going on?.

    He cut the ass end off both of our posts conferring my detailing to you the aggregate depravity attacks on Julia, along with your concurring response.

    His decision to delete it is based on what he claims were personal attacks.

    I have a copy of the deleted section. There are not personal attacks being made being made.

    The original post was custodial in nature, not aggressive, and only outlined that evidence. These two facts invalidate the post as qualifying for deletion based on personal attacks.

    The original post was a faithful summation of the on going direct attacks occurring against Julia with out restraint.

    The original post makes direct reference to the BC Comments Editor for not assisting in the custodial efforts againsts these attacks.

    There is no question that the putting together of the pieces of the aggregate of attracts being waged upon Julia made it a very reveling and disturbing post. But reveling and disturbing in custodial efforts do not constitute personal attacks. The evidenes was being presented no differnt that if would be in a court of law.

    Was CR moving through the thread too fast and did not see what going on against Julia? Or did CR see what was truly happening to her and either did not care or was ashamed that he had not seen it taking place before I did, and thus wanted it off the thread? Or is it something else that can’t be said in open thread?

    What was CRs’ justification for killing the messengers message that was exposing the evil aggregate attacks against Julia instead of his addressing her attackers?

    If you have to take the “fifth” then just reply with that.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    It’s not really my place to comment on CR’s reasoning. I think he just wanted to tone down the level of invective on both sides.

    We weren’t pointing out anything that wasn’t already pretty obvious from the rest of the thread, anyway.

    Dave

  • Sceptic

    Just click here and see what happens in Venezuela when you express yourself. Is this not a sign of intolerance?

    PuebloLibre

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I can’t follow Spanish quickly enough to get all of what he’s saying, but at least he wasn’t attacked by Chavista thugs while making his statement. Anyone have a translation of what he had to say?

    Dave

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    I would translate it but the link doesnt work. Sceptic, are you talking about what happened with Yon?

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Julia, as the Comments Editor for the site I am delighted to see that you have decided to stay with us and not be discouraged by people who have enhanced levels of cynicism or scepticism, if you follow me.

    As I hope you will understand, it is always difficult to balance the conflicting pressures of allowing a real level of genuine freedom of speech to all stake holders in any particular subject and not allowing a conversation to degenerate into a bitter hatefest.

    I always try to do my best to allow as broad a range of views and remarks to be made whilst at the same time having to decide when any particular individual has gone too far and their remarks need to be reined in and edited and/or deleted.

    It has been my experience that people from all parts of the political spectrum sometimes exceed these broad boundaries, be they semi-anonymous commenters or registered members of the site.

    The important thing to remember is to behave just as any decent person would in the real world and trust that I am going to either maintain or retrospectively restore order, depending on whether I am online or not at any particular time.

    Hasta luego.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    I can’t get the link to work either. Irritating.

  • Lapdog

    “Julia, as the Comments Editor for the site I am delighted to see that you have decided to stay with us and not be discouraged by people who have enhanced levels of cynicism or scepticism, if you follow me.”

    Comments Editor, call me a cynic and/or a sceptic, but to save me and our dear readers a whole lot of time searching through the archives, could you link us to your message of support for Marthe Raymond when she began posting on Blogcritics, and was subjected to a barrage of personal attacks, one of which was from Dave Nalle (now politics editor) calling her a “marxist stooge”.

    Let’s see if what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the raven at Blogcritics.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Lapdog, I have already expressed my regret that I did not take stronger steps to limit the hostile reception afforded to Ms Raymond when she first appeared on the site.

    I trust that a keen observer such as yourself will hopefully have noticed that people like Dave, Franco and others are also being edited when their “exuberance” exceeds reasonable bounds.

    It’s not really a question of goose or raven sauce, more a matter of learning as we go along.

  • bliffle

    Julia seems to be quite capable of responding in kind, so she doesn’t rate special coddling, IMO.

  • schuhbox

    Moonraven – I definitely don’t agree with Dave but I find your crap annoying and self serving. Do you write to feel better about yourself? You complain that he has no right to write about Chavez (calling this article a biography stretches credibility) yet you have no problem complaining about Bush and every other American you have not met. I can’t stand Bush, so that doesn’t bother me, but your hypocrisy does. You babble on that Americans are terrible racists, but its OK for you to lump us all together as gringos. You use that term like people use the word nigger. It’s derogatory. But I guess it’s OK because you are the one using it and you don’t like us. Get over yourself. You are not that smart, wise or better than the rest of us.
    By the way. Chavez does not run OPEC and if you think building a society around a product that will be depleted in another generation or two is wise, well, good luck with that. Also, you rip Dave for his take on Native Americans- how is the Native population doing in Ven. or Mexico? They are still among the poorest segments of their population but I’m sure that’s some white guy’s fault.

    As for Chavez, I don’t think he’ll have that great of an impact in the long run, especially internationally. He’s a one trick horse -America is bad- and when we finally get rid of Bush and start rebuilding our image internationally, Chavez will be largely forgotten. In his own country, there is much more to be said. First, as Moonraven noted, Chavez has made some real improvements but he wouldn’t be the first leader to give the people something in order to stay in power and take more later. As a teacher and person who truly believes in education, giving up a real education for state indoctrination is a poor choice. As Franklin said, “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” (BTW, the same applies to American rights and the Patriot Act, wire tapping, Guantanamo, etc.) So far, I’m not sure we’ve seen much more than panem et circenses, bread and circus. The people are happier, there have been some true changes for the better but no real change in the way they can expect of their lives. Most people will still live and work in the same place and manner of their parents. We’ll see how this plays out. My guess is he’s not a legitimate reformer, though I hope I’m wrong. Given the history of the US, more exactly the CIA, in the region, one can hardly blame the people of Central America for not trusting the US and rallying around someone who is willing to stand up to Bush.

    I can’t say that I know what the situation with the press in Venezuela is actually like. I haven’t been there and don’t know anyone with close ties to the country. But overall, Americans, the American government and the American press are too ready to dismiss any foreign press that isn’t writing the same story as American papers. It’s a condescending belief that their journalists aren’t professional enough to do their jobs. I think their are plenty of journalists in the US who are too willing to believe what they are told and could do more digging and less copying.

  • schuhbox

    BTW, is Julia_1984 a reference to the book 1984?

  • REMF

    “…support for Marthe Raymond when she began posting on Blogcritics, and was subjected to a barrage of personal attacks, one of which was from Dave Nalle (now politics editor) calling her a “marxist stooge”.”

    Actually Lap I believe Nalle was ALREADY the politics editor when he called Marthe that. What was amusing, is that when he first appeared on BC as a poster/commenter, Nalle used to always call anyone who disagreed with him a “dumbass” or a “moron,” and THEN was assigned as an editor.

    Even more amusing is when he now occasionally claims he “never calls people names.”
    :o)

  • Lapdog

    Christopher, I had hoped you would link the readers to your PERSONAL message to Marthe telling her how pleased you were that she continued to grace Blogcritics with her presence despite the boorish behavior of some of the more prolific posters.

    And might I add that I agree with biffle.

    This should be a coddle-neutral area.

  • Clavos

    “This should be a coddle-neutral area.”

    coddle twaddle

  • Lapdog

    schuhbox. for someone who doesn’t agree with Dave you do a grand job of defending him.

    No special coddling if you please.

    “…how is the Native population doing in Ven. or Mexico? They are still among the poorest segments of their population but I’m sure that’s some white guy’s fault.”

    #248: The recent vote by the UN General Assembly on the Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed 143 – 4. The 4 negative votes came from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    The white guys who voted against the Indigenous Declaration aren’t just content to piss on the Natives under THEIR control. They’re happy to watch Natives being pissed on everywhere. It’s good for business.

  • Lapdog

    “Even more amusing is when he now occasionally claims he “never calls people names.”

    When you look up decorum in the dictionary you’ll find…..

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Comments Editor, call me a cynic and/or a sceptic, but to save me and our dear readers a whole lot of time searching through the archives, could you link us to your message of support for Marthe Raymond when she began posting on Blogcritics, and was subjected to a barrage of personal attacks, one of which was from Dave Nalle (now politics editor) calling her a “marxist stooge”.

    You might want to go back and read that thread again to see who started the personal attacks. MR began it in entry #21 on the thread and I didn’t join in with any comments at all until some time later. CR’s first involvement was to begin editing MR’s comments as they became increasingly irrational.

    I will admit that MR started out on BC more reasonable than she is now, but she chose to adopt this harassing tone and stance, and the fact that she has an alternative ‘persona’ to switch to when harassing people really says it all about her. I stick by what I’ve said since the beginning of all of this. I have posted facts about the Chavez regime, they have not been refuted by anyone here, and they remain true. And every word I’ve said has been honest and forthright.

    As for calling Marthe a ‘marxist stooge’, then as now it’s not an insult because she’s proud to be a marxist and the description is absolutely true. For it to be an insult she would have to acknowledge that being a marxist is a bad thing. Hell, if she honestly repudiates marxism I’ll make a public apology for calling her a marxist. The same offer is open to you, Lapdog. If you want to come out and declare that marxism is nothing but a sure route to statist oppression I’ll give you all the credit you deserve.

    Dave

  • troll

    …where did Marthe say that she’s a marxist – ?

  • Franco

    #346 — Lapdog

    No special coddling if you please…by Lapdog

    No special coddling if you please
    I must beat her to her knees
    I’m the man and here I’ll stay
    I’ll do anything to have my way

    God for bid her words be told
    walls round me would start to fold
    I am only one of three
    you see you can’t get rid of me

    Will be here to shill our vile
    just you watch in little wily
    But it’s not us you really see
    our spirits possese this idolidgy

  • Lapdog

    Oh my, youse guys is so sofisticated!

  • Franco

    Julina,

    Do you know approxamately when you think you will make your post?

  • Franco

    Dave, check your email!!!!!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Lap, still waiting to hear if you want to repudiate any support for or belief in the Marxist or related ideologies.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    IMO it’s impossible to defend the attacks against MR based upon her florid characterizations of various people, since MR’s attackers have previously routinely used scurrilous attacks upon their enemies quite freely. It’s a simple matter of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Fans of Karl Rove seem to have freely adopted his gossipy way of attacking enemies by, e.g., suggesting they had illegitimate black children, or that their battle wounds were trivial. Well, why not, it seems to work.

    They can hardly complain when a Shark or MR chooses the same tactics.

    I suspect that MR’s enemies are less Morally Outraged than they are Literarily Envious. Indeed, there’s little difference, morally speaking, while MR is the clear winner in writing ability.

    MR, like Shark before, has a certain lilt and rhythm to her declamations, while the curses of her enemies are leaden and dull, exemplifying the logical conundrum of Republican Poetry (which we have all come to recognize with the “O” word that has been drummed into our ears by constant overuse by the popular press for the last 2 years).

    In short, MR is amusing and entertaining, while Nalle, etc., are clumsy, awkward and childish.

    I suspect that they are infuriated more at being outdone in their chosen battlefield than any kind of moral outrage, contrived as it is.

    As they say down in the trailer camps of Texas (which certain BC political editors should know well), “don’t get in a pissing contest with a skunk”.

    The corollary is that you can’t complain about smelling bad afterwards.

  • troll

    Dave – how ’bout we waterboard the yapping bitch ’til she confesses her sins – ?

    ps – just for clarity’s sake: what are the defining tenets of marxism that you find so abhorrent – ?

    the term is used in so many ways that it’s pretty much lost any specific common meaning

  • schuhbox

    Lapdog – So you are saying the one thing holding the indigenous people of Mexico and Ven back is the UN vote?

    My point is she is a hypocrite.

  • Lapdog

    “Lap, still waiting to hear if you want to repudiate any support for or belief in the Marxist or related ideologies.”

    Dammit! There’s nothing more annoying than having the Banal Un-American Activites Committee show up when I’m right in the middle of baking an apple pie.

    And I haven’t even fed Chairman Meow yet.

  • http://antipatrioticvenezuelan.blogspot.com Julia_1984

    schuhbox

    Yes, my name is a reference to the novel 1984.

  • Lapdog

    “Lapdog – So you are saying the one thing holding the indigenous people of Mexico and Ven back is the UN vote?”

    No. Just pointing out that the “white guys” you mentioned in #341, whom you imply are blameless, are actively holding back Indigenous peoples in the US, Canada, Australia and new Zealand, and by voting against the Indigenous Declaration they tacitly give their approval for abuses to occur elsewhere.

    Ask your friend Dave what his views are on the US genocide of Native Americans and then we’ll talk about hypocrites.

  • moonraven

    As I indicated when I first visited this site, I do not espouse any particularly ideology, and am not a Marxist.

    Nalle called me a Marxist stooge because for him, that is equivalent to Chavez calling Bush The Devil and because I refuted his fatuous fantasies in regard to Venezuela’s president.

    Thanks to those of you who have commented on the high quality of my writing.

    Even though I will write no articles without Nalle’s being given the axe and without being paid for them, I do try to maintain a certain professional standard in my comments (apart from typing errors, of course) [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor].

  • moonraven

    troll, I have yet to open the Wilpert book.

    (Aside: interesting how Nalle ALWAYS puts down anyone who has an academic connection–such as myself and such as Greg Wilpert, a former Fulbright Scholar. I am formally requesting that Nalle lick his wounds for being evicted from academia SOMEWHERE ELSE.)

    Friends in Santa Fe sent a waffle-maker back back with me, and my soon-to-be 13-year-old nephew has launched a small operation he is calling Max’s Magic Waffles….Being a cheering section for that has kept me busy.

  • Martin Lav

    “one gets the quality one pays for”

    The exact reason for the failure of Marxism.

    Me thinks Moonraven and Nalle are falling in love.

    With each other, as they are already both madly in love with themselves. The narcissistic qualities they both exhibit is fueling a desire that even they can interpret.

    It’s so disgustedly sweet.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    just for clarity’s sake: what are the defining tenets of marxism that you find so abhorrent – ?

    What I find most objectionable about the basic tenets of Marxism as written and what I find objectionable about those who consider themselves marxists in a modern context are two different things.

    As you point out, the term IS used in different ways, and those who self-identify as marxists often hold beliefs quite different from those promoted by Marx himself. However, the one constant is that in most cases those eager to identify themselves as Marxists are either naive and foolish with little practical experience of marxism or they are being used by those who are adherents of much more dangerous totalitarian movements which operate under a veneer of marxist rhetoric.

    I’ll write more about marxism and related issues in an article in the near future, once my current massive sinus headache abates.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    “…the one constant is that in most cases those eager to identify themselves as Marxists are either naive and foolish and being used a’ who are adherents of much more dangerous totalitarian movements which operate under a veneer of marxist rhetoric.

    I’ll write more about marxism and related issues in an article in the near future,…”

    Thus, by advance slandering his potential opposition, Nalle invalidates whatever argument he himself might present: it is only a rationalization for his preconceptions.

    No one need read Nalles article on Marxism.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Bliffle, you really have no idea at all what I’m going to write about Marxism, but by maintaining a closed mind you contribute to my perceptions and future observations in a purely negative way.

    And I never said it was going to be an article about Marxism, just that Marxism would be addressed. But you go ahead and draw whatever conclusions you want based on zero data, as usual.

    dave

  • troll

    well – another year has passed and once again we are called together for a festive celebration of our dear St Marcellus – as always shillelagh rules will be in effect until after dark

    ladies – to avoid a recurrence of last years unfortunate events you are requested to leave the razors at home

    enjoy and peace be upon you all

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    More importantly, it’s really time the political debate moved on. It would be incredibly naive to assert that unrestrained capitalism would work in the public interest and incredibly stupid to believe that rigid state control is a viable option.

    The trick is in trying to find useful balancing points where dynamic processes can be directed to general benefits whilst limiting the sometimes destructive side effects without stifling the dynamic impulse.

    The whole arena of political debate, particularly in the USA, which seems stuck in a peculiar 20th century political groundhog day, needs to become more nuanced.

    Objecting to capitalism is about as rational as objecting to breathing, it’s just a process of exchange or transformation.

    Seeing everything in terms of a class struggle is similarly absurd; contemporary life is too richly varied and complex for such a dated interpretation.

    The problems seem to lie in the basic setup of contemporary political debate and the corrupting effects of political party dogma. No currently electable political party can ever hope to embrace the needs and concerns of contemporary society, whilst the twin strangleholds of mutual distrust and party hierarchical structure seem to make all hope for a more useful political debate and process little more than a fantasy.

    No wonder political engagement is at spectacularly low levels, it doesn’t take much to see that politicians are rarely able to engage with issues or sincerely serve we the people. We need a fresh start and new ideas but everything is gridlocked by the current establishment and their vested interests.

  • troll

    Objecting to capitalism is about as rational as objecting to breathing, it’s just a process of exchange or transformation.

    people were breathing before capitalism came along and will continue after it is left in the dust…or has the meaning of ‘capitalism’ been so corrupted that it now covers all economic activity – ?

    Seeing everything in terms of a class struggle is similarly absurd; contemporary life is too richly varied and complex for such a dated interpretation.

    ‘class struggle’ is just one of many ways to organize how we look at the way people interact – to deny the basic validity of the approach is as absurd as demanding that it is the only way to talk about the world

    seems to me that you ask for nuance without producing any…as is often the case in your comments you deride folks for using dated concepts without offering alternatives

    …not to mention that the white of you eye is black

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “it doesn’t take much to see that politicians are rarely able to engage with issues or sincerely serve we the people. We need a fresh start and new ideas but everything is gridlocked by the current establishment and their vested interests.”

    Yep, that’s about right. So in the meantime, have the government keep my taxes low and I’ll figure it out on my own.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    troll, you normally make a lot of sense but I find myself baffled by the above remark.

    Obviously people were breathing prior to capitalism, wtf does that have to do with what I said?

    Class struggle is NOT a valid way to organize how we look at anything as there is no such thing as a homogeneous class facing a common challenge or sharing a common purpose.

    I’m trying to move the debate along to a more useful point of interaction. If I knew the fucking answers I wouldn’t be looking for a dialogue would I? Sheesh!

    Suss: Let me know when you get it figured out will you. You’re certainly more likely to than some of the political neanderthals we have round here!

  • troll

    it is reasonable to object to capitalism – it allows the maximized profit to trump self-interest by conflating the concepts

    …and as Marx (may he rest in the glow of Allah’s peace) pointed out – just because you don’t realize that you share common interest or act in ways that are not in your own best interest and those of your peers does not free you from your class…your lack of homogeneity is a chimera

    but hey – I’m easy…you say that you want the conversation to move on down more productive paths…what would you like to propose

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Ah, Christopher. How strange that we should agree so on the surface issues which you outline in #368 and yet I’m sure we would continue to butt heads when it comes to discussing anything specific.

    As for the issue of capitalism, of course capitalism as the sole driving force of society can be a bad thing. It only works well as part of a balanced system with other forces which compliment it and counterract its excesses.

    But the problem with the modern ‘neo-marxists’ (for lack of a better term) is that when they object to capitalism they aren’t objecting to what Marx objected to, but stating an opposition to ALL exercise of trade or enterprise in the hands of private individuals.

    The disagreement really goes much deeper than capitalism, it comes down to a disagreement at its very base over whether private individuals should even be allowed to own property or any asset from which a profit could be made.

    On the other side, it sometimes does seem as if there are real free-market anarchists at work who think that business should be completely unfettered by government in any way. What they’ve forgotten is that government is and has always been the primary instrument of the will of the people, and no matter how free a lack of government makes the people, the people do still retain the right to step in with their government and draw some lines.

    As for classes, they only make sense as a way of describing the structure of society when they are defined in law, by economics and by people self-identifying as part of a class. In the US that structure has completely broken down, because even with recent economic attenuation, it’s still awfully easy to move up the economic ladder, even if the very top rung is a longshot. Plus there still aren’t any hard barriers to advancement based on anything other than ability to work and earn. The same is true in most western societies to a greater or lesser extent, and that renders Marx’s class struggle irrelevant.

    But the problem here is that we’ve somehow managed to put ideologues into positions of power who believe in bizarre and extreme ideologies which are largely divorced from pragmatic reality. Our academic institutions churn out free market anarchists from their business schools and naive marxists from their liberal arts schools, and these people sail on in oblivious self-righteousness into positions in government or business or running non-governmental organizations.

    What both groups need is a hard kick in the ass in the form of being made to work outside government or business management in a factory or on a farm or in small business for a couple of years to give them some sort of grounding in reality, because academic understanding of the world really isn’t sufficient.

    Dave

  • troll

    it sometimes does seem as if there are real free-market anarchists at work who think that business should be completely unfettered by government in any way.

    any free market anarchist worth his salt should want neither the owner class nor the producing class to be fettered by government moderation…imo it’s going to take the further synthesis of these classes to create the necessary new improved ‘constant’ to base our economic equations on

    What they’ve forgotten is that government is and has always been the primary instrument of the will of the people, and no matter how free a lack of government makes the people, the people do still retain the right to step in with their government and draw some lines

    such idealistic pap from someone who claims to deal in pragmatic reality…when the people ‘step in’ their government rarely stands with them…because it really isn’t theirs I guess

  • moonraven

    CR wrote:

    “More importantly, it’s really time the political debate moved on. It would be incredibly naive to assert that unrestrained capitalism would work in the public interest and incredibly stupid to believe that rigid state control is a viable option.”

    Interesting that it is by sheer coincidence that he wrote it on THIS thread, since it describes the basic for the program of TWENTY FIRST CENTURY SOCIALISM being devloped by the CHAVEZ government in VENEZUELA!

    When Chavez first took office in 1999, he was looking at something very much akin to Blair’s Third Way–but that proved to be just a bubble in the air in both Britain and Venezuela, as it simply did not work. It was an artifical synthesis that had to base in any tangible reality.

    Capitalistic activity is alive and very well in Venezuela–and even Chavez would admit both that as well as that the capitalist sector has actually been that which has experienced the biggest percentage of the economic boom that has been taking place there for the past 4 years.

    However, the state has also taken the responsible step to create the kind of legal and practical infrastructure that promotes endognenous growth and “in depth” growth–especially of cooperatives.

    There is no rigid state control in Venezuela [Edited] as that would be illegal under the Constitution of 1999–and would be even MORE so under the propsed revised Constitution which will go to referendum in December–which calls for PARTICIPATORY AND PROTAGONISTIC DEMOCRACY–not REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY (which seldom represents anyone apart from the big business interests), for which two main axes are the community councils which operate at the neighborhood level and the planning councils which operate at the municipal level.

    Twentyfirst Century Socialism in Venezuela is an organically evolving model which offers–even in these, its early moments, a fair amount of hope as an alternative to the bankrupt models of the past and present which have shown to create enormous wealth for a few at the expense of the many and at the expense of the planet SOME OF US are living on.

    If I may be so bold as to suggest that folks INVESTIGATE, READ and THINK–instead of shooting off their keyboards with ignorant invective and tone-deaf reheated Fox News shouting matches–they MIGHT actually be able to learn something about one of the few DELIBERATELY POSITIVE models for governance and economic growth being developed on the planet.

    It’s developer is non-white?! So much the better–the majority of the folks living on this planet is non-white.

    Just suck it up.

  • troll

    …and if only he weren’t male then one might be able to trust his act

  • moonraven

    Note to troll,

    I have read through the first 3 chapters of Gregory Wilpert’s CHANGING VENEZUELA BY TAKING POWER. Although Greg’s style is a little too academic (read tedious), and the manuscript could have used an editor with the type of focus on detail of this poster to clean up a few grammatical glitches and create better transitions between chapters written several years ago and ones written more recently, it is a worthwhile read and the only comprehensive analysis out there in English in regard to what Twentyfirst Century Socialism might or could turn out to be.

    Anyone with a genuine interest in being informed about what’s happening on the planet–and particularly about the little piece of it called Venezuela–should buy it and READ it.

    We could even DISCUSS it on Blogcritics–something that has never happened here!

  • moonraven

    PS: If you referred to Chavez, I have no real problem trusting him because he is not a MISOGYNIST, but a man in harmony with both masculine (Leo planets) and feminine (4 planets in Cancer, including the Moon) aspects of his being.

  • Clavos

    Here is an interesting eyewitness account by a correspondent with Maclean’s Magazine of Canada, as he accompanied an opposition politician on a campaign swing through one of the barrios in the hills surrounding Caracas.

    It’s a long article. Following are some of the more important points made in it:

    “Defeating Chávez means winning the slums. One man willing to try is Leopoldo López, the 36-year-old mayor of Chacao, a small and prosperous municipality in Caracas. Articulate and — even his female opponents on the far left admit — very handsome, López is emerging as one of the more prominent challengers to Chávez’s rule.

    For his efforts, López has had more than 20 charges filed against him, ranging from the alleged mismanagement of funds to “ecocide” after he replanted trees, which he claims are now thriving elsewhere in his municipality. He is officially barred from running in another election until 2017. More seriously, López has survived a kidnapping and three assassination attempts. During the most recent, last year, bodyguard Carlos Mendosa was shot six times in the passenger seat of their car, where López usually sits. “He died in my arms,” López told Maclean’s.”…

    …”The truth, though, is that in Venezuela, Chávez is the hurricane. He drives all change in his country, and is methodically removing barriers that might check or oppose him. His methods include politicizing the judiciary, which is now essentially under his control, weakening regional government, and attempting to muzzle hostile media. His decision not to renew the licence of RCTV, a critical television station that is now available only on cable, sent a clear message to other networks — most of which have now learned to parrot the government line — even as international media and human rights groups, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the Committee to Protect Journalists, denounced the move.”…

    …”But the targets of intimidation by the Chávez government extend far beyond journalists and media moguls. Ordinary Venezuelans who voice their opposition to Chávez can find their livelihoods put at risk and job opportunities smothered”…

    …”Venezuela’s 1999 constitution, adopted less than one year into the Chávez presidency, allowed for a presidential recall referendum to be held should 20 per cent of registered voters sign a petition demanding one. Such a referendum, which ultimately failed to revoke Chávez’s mandate, took place in 2004. During the drive to collect signatures, Chávez warned: “Those who sign against Chávez will sign against the fatherland and will be registered for all history, as they will have to provide their name, surname, identification number and fingerprint.” This proved to be more than an empty threat. Following the referendum, Luis Tascón, a chávista member of the National Assembly, posted on his website the names and identity card numbers of the more than two million Venezuelans who had signed the petition. Many subsequently complained of discrimination, such as the loss of public sector jobs and blocked access to public assistance programs.”

    And addressing a recent allegation by moonraven that the “oligarchs,” as she calls them, are the conspicuous consumers in Venezuela:

    “The unofficial status symbol of choice for powerful chávistas is a Hummer, the behemoth American SUV made famous by California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. The image problem this creates recently prompted an angry outburst from Chávez on national television. “What kind of revolution is this?” he asked. “The Whisky Revolution? The Hummer Revolution? No, this is a real revolution.”

    And why Chavez is much more dangerous than Fidel Castro ever was:

    “The fact that Venezuela sits on vast reserves of oil, as well as large quantities of coal, iron ore and gold, means that the country under Chávez should not be dismissed as a mainland Cuba: distasteful but largely irrelevant. Chávez wants to use Venezuela’s oil wealth to purchase influence across Latin America. Globally, his efforts to build a power bloc to oppose American hegemony consist of seeking alliances with tyrants and dictators. He praised Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for his “wisdom and strength,” and promised that Venezuela will stand with him and Iran forever. During a visit to Minsk, Belarus, Chávez described the last dictatorship in Europe as “a model state, like the one we are beginning to create.”…

    And yet Chávez remains immensely popular among many left-leaning liberals in the West, including the NDP’s youth wing, which has posted at least one laudatory article on its website and endorses the international lobby group Hands Off Venezuela. “

    According to Teodoro Petkoff, editor of Tal Cual newspaper, and a prominent leader:

    “Petkoff says Chávez’s foreign supporters have lost sight of what socialists should really stand for — and it’s not his Bolívarian Revolution. “If we are to use labels appropriately, this is a fascist government. Everybody thinks this is a leftist government. And if we accept that Stalin was a leftist, okay, this is a leftist government. But it has many features of fascism,” he said.

    “We are crawling toward a totalitarian society — the state’s domination of sport, of culture, using the educational system to ideologize primary and high-school students, the elimination of universities’ autonomy, communications hegemony, and the transformation of the armed forces into an armed party. It has nothing to do with democratic socialism.”

  • Clavos

    OOPS!! Sorry, forgot to include the link for the Mclean’s article in #379.

  • Lapdog

    Maclean’s magazine!

    Then it’s gotta be true!

  • moonraven

    The link doesn’t work on MY computer, so I cannot see the DATE of the article.

    I also fail to see what clavos’ POINT is–but this is not the first time.

    However, this is not an EYEWITNESS account of anything. This is an EARWITNESS account of someone QUOTING an opposition candidate for a mayor’s post in the wealthy municipality of Caracas–and those elections took place THREE YEARS AGO in 2004. Really timely is our clavos.

    Next time maybe Clavos could post something from 1998–before Chavez was even elected? Anything that could possibly stick to the wall–Spaghetti Journalism.

    Ted Petkoff he calls a “prominent leader”. A prominent leader of what? A prominent leader where? Petkoff runs an opposition newspaper in Caracas. He’s an old ex-guerrilla whose beef with Chavez is twofold:

    1. That Chavez is not RADICAL ENOUGH, that he has sold out the left!

    (Yet our rightwing propagandist clavos, who knows nothing of Venezuelan politics, quotes this guy without knowing that he is using a Marxist guerrilla as his source!)

    2. That, given his history as a leftist guerrilla, he expected to be given a cabinet post in the Chavez government–and he WASN’T.
    [Edited]

    I suggest, in lieu of posting a 3 year-old complaint by an unsuccessful opposition candidate, that clavos should tell us about the wonderful “documentary” that his congressperson, the infamous Connie Mack, has put together to call for a military invasion of Venezuela.

    It is hot out of the film lab and brought to you by all those US heros from the Iran Contra Gang!

    (Applause.)

  • Clavos

    The date and author are: “MICHAEL PETROU | October 29, 2007 |”

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] It’s eyewitness, allright. If you read the article you’ll see that.

    You’d also see that the article mentions that Petkoff is a lefty retread… I don’t have a problem with that, now that he’s seen the light.

    I love your reactions to my posts; never any factual refutations, just ad hominem attacks on the messenger.

  • moonraven

    After re-reading the screwy post of clavos, I really wish he would have put a link that worked–as it APPEARS that PERHAPS this guy was running in the 2006 presidential election????

    In that election, the opposition fielded ONE single candidate, Manuel Rosas–the governor of Zulia State and one of the signers of the Carmona Dictatorship Decree which abolished all institutions in Venezuela on April 12, 2002.

    However, if I remember correctly there were a few other candidates listed on the ballot.

    Apparently they recieved no votes, as the tally was Chavez 63% and Rosas 37%.

    This guy was barking up the wrong tree, apparently–he should have been complaining about the deal to put Rosas as the Only Game in Town for the opposition.

    Oh well. There are crackpots in every country.
    But they usually are not ALLOWED to run as independent candidates for the presidency.

    Which shows that in Venezuela, anybody can get out there and run–whether he or she has any supporters or not. That’s real democracy.

    We had two crackpot independent candidates in last year’s elections in Mexico:

    1. Doctor Simi (who runs a chain of cut-rate supposedly “generic” drugstores called Farmacias Similares (he skirts legality with the word “similar”–as in aspirin is similar to beta blockers in that they both are pills), and

    2. Former foreign minister Jorge Castaneda Guzman–another former marxist who was given guerrilla training in Cuba in the 1970s but who moved further right than Pinochet (qepd) to join Fox’s cabinet in 2000. This guy managed to take his case to the hemispheric Commission on Human Rights, which ruled that Mexico had to put him on the ballot.

    Mexico–not known for implementing recommendations in regard to human rights–did not put him on the ballot.

    Now he is apparently serving as the coordinator in the US for Fox’s book tour or something.

  • Clavos

    Oh, and connie Mack is not a “congressperson,” he is a Congressman.

    And, he’s not my Congressman, his district is on the southwest coast, in the Fort Myers area.

    My Congresswoman (and that’s what she calls herself on her website) is Debbie Wasserman Schultz, for whom I voted, and who is doing a great job.

  • troll

    Marthe – I’ve got Jones’ book lined up for when I get through this week’s project: coming up to speed on Persia – Ansari’s pretty sorry apologia ‘Confronting Iran’ and Venter’s surprisingly thorough and sympathetic ‘Iran’s Nuclear Option’ along with relevant sections of Sharia and recent fatwas

  • moonraven

    troll,

    Good going.

    I am such a lazy bird that I would never even consider buying and reading anything in English about Iran–so far as I know it has no English-speaking apologists writing books about it.

    And I know the US party line on it. It is tatooed across Dick Mad Dog Cheney’s forehead.

  • troll

    good point about the language…but I’ve been down the path of ‘untranslatability’ with Quine and realize that I actually cannot be completely sure that I really grok what I wrote yesterday

    …we do the best we can

  • moonraven

    Some of us do, yes.

    I am gone for the day.

  • http://schuhbox schuhbox

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I mean how many people are trying to sneak across the border INTO Mexico?? Why do you think so much of American culture has been adopted throughout the world? Throughout the world people want American clothes, movies and music. Even the people of our greatest enemy, Russia, wanted anything American. Think Pepsi is really THAT good or because it was American? Why do students across the world hope to attend American universities? Why do so many countries look to the American Constitution as an example? How many countries GLADLY accept American foreign aid?

    America has also done more for the people of the world than any other country in the world. How many people would still be starving if not for advances in agriculture made in America? How many people across the globe would still be dying of diseases if not for cures discovered in America? Ask the people of Eastern Europe that were under Nazi, then Russian domination what America and American help meant to them. While you are at it, ask them how Marxism works in practice- not theory. Do you really believe the world would be better off if China or Russia were the preeminent power? Spout all the anti-American BS you want. I can admit the US has made plenty of mistakes but I’m still damn glad, and damn proud, to be an American. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] Americans soldiers, sailors and Marines have died in foreign lands throughout the world making sure smug fools like you had the freedom to say what you wanted. Or did I miss the part where Mexican soldiers stormed Normandy Beach to push Hitler out of France? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]
    They say you can judge a man’s character by his enemies. If the same can be said for countries- with enemies like radical Islam,the old Soviet Union, North Korea, I’m convinced we are doing something right.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    imo, this Thread is a perfect Example of how a small minority can pollute an open Forum, the bedrock of true democratic functionality, and transmogrify It into a festering cesspool that lowers the I.Q. and diminishes the Spirit of all who participate

    could just be me…

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    gonzo, I hope you are comfortable with the cleaned up version, despite your concerns about that process.

  • Lapdog

    schuhbox: “America has also done more for the people of the world than any other country in the world. How many people would still be starving if not for advances in agriculture made in America?”

    You’re talking about Native American advances, of course.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer.php?name=gonzo%20marx gonzo marx

    well Chris…since you Asked

    no..i’d rather the entire bilious vomiting were left as each wrote them, for the Record

    that being said, i understand and Respect the rules set up by those that do the Work and provide the website…so i grok what goes on, and have a glimmering of Why

    that’s not the Point in this case, of what i was talking about

    i’m talking about the Content, the methodology of demagoguery rather than actual Discussion and/or debate

    i’m talking about the propensity towards talking at rather than to

    mostly i’m just bitching because i dearly miss Conversation among solid Intellects and am so not interested in the inane shambles It has become

    know what i’m saying ???
    (for the impaired, the Question marx link to Lyrics)

    heh… well, you Asked…

    Excelsior?

  • Lapdog

    Re #399

    “How many people across the globe would still be dying of diseases if not for cures discovered in America?”.

    (The development of penicillin for use as a medicine is attributed to the Australian Nobel Laureate Howard Walter Florey). Wikipedia.

  • Lapdog

    schuhbox: “How many countries GLADLY accept American foreign aid?”

    The US population represents approximately 6% of the Earth’s people and uses approximately 50% of the Earth’s resources. Someone’s being short-changed.

  • http://schuhbox schuhbox

    Yeah you are right, penicilin is the ONLY drug out there. Great point.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I mean how many people are trying to sneak across the border INTO Mexico??

    Just to set the record straight, conditions in countries to the south of Mexico like Guatamala are enough worse than they are in Mexico that many people DO cross the border into Mexico – some trying to get all the way to the US, but some with Mexico as their final objective.

    Despite all its shortcomings, Mexico has the highest per-capita income in the region and one of the reasons why it’s such a valuable labor source for the US is that it does have skilled and semi-skilled and reliable workers to export.

    dave

  • Martin Lav

    Yeah right Dave, your pool boy, landscaper and big-ass diesel truck washer are all skilled laborers right?

  • brian

    How to get rich: the american way.

    ‘AMY GOODMAN: The clothing company the Gap has announced it’s cut ties with a subcontractor found to be holding children in slave-like conditions in India to make clothing sold by Gap Kids. The London Observer revealed Sunday children as young as ten years old have been subjected to work long hours without pay and regular threats and beatings. Gap began auditing its labor conditions in 2004, years after reports of abusive conditions at its factories first emerged.

    The Gap expose is only the latest scandal linking children’s products to sweatshop labor. Earlier this year the toy giant Mattel recalled some 21 million Chinese-made toys found to contain lead paint easily swallowed by kids. Last week, the National Labor Committee in Support of Human Rights and Worker Rights released three reports documenting conditions for workers making those toys. The reports found forced labor of up to ninety hours a week and pay as low as forty-six cents an hour. Aside from Mattel, other companies using the factories include Wal-Mart, McDonald’s and the swimwear manufacturer Speedo.

    Charles Kernaghan is the executive director of the National Labor Committee, widely considered the country’s leading voice in exposing the foreign labor abuses of major US companies. He joins us in the firehouse studio. Welcome to Democracy Now!

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: Good to be here.

    AMY GOODMAN: What are you holding?

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: This is a Barbie Pet Doctor set, made in China.

    AMY GOODMAN: Barbie Pet Doctor set.

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: Yeah.

    AMY GOODMAN: It’s got a stuffed animal.

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: Yeah, little implements. And it was made in a factory called Xin Yi by young women forced to work fourteen-and-a-half hours a day, six days a week, at a minimum. Sometimes they work until midnight, sixteen-and-a-half-hour shifts. They’re at the factory eighty-seven hours a week, paid fifty-three cents an hour as their wage and then cheated of their overtime wage.

    AMY GOODMAN: Where is the factory in China?

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: In Shenzhen, in China.

    AMY GOODMAN: Where is that?

    CHARLES KERNAGHAN: In the south of China. And it’s a big factory, like 5,000 workers there. All the workers are temporary workers, so they have zero rights. When they hire them, they hire them on ten-day contracts or twenty-four-day contracts. The ultimate would be three months. And then the company just renews them. So if the workers were there a year working full-time, they’re always temporary workers, which means they have no legal rights. So right from the beginning, they’ve got zero rights.

    The workers can be fired if they’re inattentive at work. They can be fired if they’re seen speaking to each other during working hours. They can be fired if they don’t reach their production goal. The workers tell us they’re sweating all day; the factory is incredibly hot. They have to sit on hard wooden benches with no backs. They say after a few hours — they’re prohibited from standing up; after a few hours, their legs go numb, their arms hurt, their backs hurt. They have no right. The supervisors will yell and scream at them to go faster. You’re not allowed to answer back or even look at the supervisor, or you’ll be fired. Their housed in primitive dormitories. It’s a sweatshop of enormous abuse. The workers are cheated of about two days’ wages every single week.
    etc
    Democracy Now

    So didnt Gap and Mattel know? Or did they turn a blind eye to this sort of thing?
    But note, sweatshopping makse perfect sense from a capitalist perspective, where profit alone matters. Lets make it so embarrassing that even the chinese (no more communists than Bush) force it out of existence.

  • Franco

    #68 –Lapdog

    “Ah yes, the good old days of benevolent capitalism.”

    1. This sarcastic progressive intentionally negative generalization of capitalism is a fallacy. This theory has been flawed from the start, and it remains flawed to this day.

    2. This fallacious and sarcastic attack was directed at the very first Venezuelan to post a comment in this thread (#66 – nejode). Whom by that way, if anyone is interested, lives in Venezuela with his family. In other words, “the a horses mouth”.

    3. There was nothing that nejode stated in post #66 that would indicate or justify Lapdogs sarcastic assumption. Lapdog insinuates that nejode was somehow a heartless money grubbing capitalist exploiters of the poor. When in fact, a carefully reading and look at the tone in nejodes’ post, would clearly indicate otherwise……

    4. Furthermore, nejode provides information that indicates that there are activities going on in the Chavista government, that Lapdog is accusing nejode of.. Here is a short statement from nejode post.

    #66 — nejode

    “we “traitors” to the ideas of “our beloved leader” who cannot find milk, eggs, or sugar in the supermarkets, us who see every day how the new “socialist” leaders grow filthy rich on our money” we the ignorant souls who do not understand why the regime has to control all the communicational media (Goebbels would have loved this country!)… well, we see things different.”

    Now a careful reading of Labdogs’ post #68 would suggests the writings of a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn’t there.

    Now, while I do not have nejode first hand “in county” perspectives on the disruptions in his country cased by a flawed ideology, I do share a far closer perspective with him on another issue then many others in this thread do not.

    Rojode and I share the normal day to day realities of living is South America. An experience existence in and of itself, apart of from Chavistaism, that can only truly be humanly understand from living here, for years. That fact is the only thing so fare I have every agreed to with moonraven.

    I have come to love living down here, and not because I have a lot of money, because I don’t. If money were the only reason to be here, I would have missed what I have found and come to love here the most, the people. I was born in and the Untied States and grew up in Los Angeles, and I still dearly love it and it will always be home to me in North America, just like Chile has become a home for in South America. I do know nejode from this shared appreciation and love for it.

    The insensitive swift abuse that nejode took at the hands of Lapdog, whether Lapdog is an American or not, brings on a clear meaning to is fraise “Ugly American”.

    Getting back to Lapdogs attack on capitalism. I personally support Capitalism over Socialism whole heatedly, with the emphasis on the words “whole heatedly”

    My concerns with nejode on Hugo Chavez, as well as my reasoning in support of Capitalism here in South America can both be found in the other thread Hugo Chavez – One Man Axis of Crazy.

    This is the same archived thread Lapdog claimed to having had thoroughly reviewed, and stated that this thread hand nothing but abusive attracts made upon Marthe Raymond aka moonraven. These allegations were his basis for his begging for an apology from the Comments Editor in this thread on her behalf.

    Not surprisingly, my post comments in support of Capitalism in South American were first made to Marthe Raymond aka moonraven. I would like to add that this was the very first time I had ever posted a comment to her in my life. You be the judge in seeing if I was abusive and attacking.

    This fact embarrassingly adds more credence to the “blind man in dark room” hypothesis.concerng Lapdog.

    I solute the comments of Christopher Rose in post #368 for moving on the political debate, his timing for intervention, and for his dynamic analysis of all of us.

    There is one comment I would like offer to up on one particular paragraph.

    Christopher sez…..The trick is in trying to find useful balancing points where dynamic processes can be directed to general benefits whilst limiting the sometimes destructive side effects without stifling the dynamic impulse.

    The key wording there is “The trick is”. And finding it has everything to do with making it all work for all of us.

    I assert that we all already have the “trick”, where simply not applying it. It’s called the human heart. The state can not provide that nor control it in any of us. We either use it or we don’t. And it’s not a trick.

    Here are the post comment numbers and link to this archive thread.

    Here is my post on Chavez in South America

    #31 — September 21, 2006 @ 22:21PM — Franco

    Here is a post on Capitalism in South America to Marthe Raymond aka moonraven.

    #95 — September 23, 2006 @ 03:14AM — Franco

    Hear is the link Hugo Chavez – One Man Axis of Crazy

    If Lapdog wants to challenge my positrons, and can find fallacy in my reasoning, and can point that out to me by changing his approach of using ad hominem or cynical attacks, maybe we will both learn something.

    If lapdog dose not, I hope someone else will, because God knows, the post #66 of nejode from Venezuela sure wants someone to!

  • brian

    ‘Despite all its shortcomings, Mexico has the highest per-capita income in the region and one of the reasons why it’s such a valuable labor source for the US is that it does have skilled and semi-skilled and reliable workers to export.’

    labor source? workers to export? Doesnt this smack of quasi slavery?
    The reason mexicans are flooding into US is because US set up NAFTA with mexicos then govt. NAFTA undermined mexicos economy and created a new class of impoverished worker…
    They wanted to do the same with FTAA for all latin america but the people resisted and voted in men like Chavez and Morales who put that idea to flight.
    Doncha love how the word ‘free’ peppers virtually every line of US rhetoric?? Its a great word to make people feel that something good is about to arrive…

  • Clavos

    @#394:

    “”America has also done more for the people of the world than any other country in the world. How many people would still be starving if not for advances in agriculture made in America?”

    You’re talking about Native American advances, of course.”

    How about Dr. Norman Borlaug, a Caucasian American, who, as the “Father of the Green Revolution,” is credited as having singlehandedly fed more people than any other person in history?

  • brian

    ‘If Lapdog wants to challenge my positrons’

    WOW now THATS cute! Challenge my positrons!!!!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Yeah right Dave, your pool boy,

    Is a 50 year old white hippy excon who talks to himself in a loud voice while he works.

    landscaper

    Is my cousin Rick, though his crew is made up of legal mexican workers most of whome speak English. We do the day to day gardening ourselves- that’s what kids are for.

    and big-ass diesel truck washer

    I wash my truck myself, actually.

    are all skilled laborers right?

    You mean you don’t know the difference between skilled and unskilled workers? Both come from Mexico. There’s plenty of work for all.

    And to address some later person’s silly accusation that this is akin to slavery, they are better off here in the US, and the money they send back to Mexico improves living conditions there and creates more opportunities for homegrown businesses and economic growth in Mexico.

    Dave

  • brian

    Schuhbox: ‘Why do you think so much of American culture has been adopted throughout the world? Throughout the world people want American clothes, movies and music. ‘

    You seem unclear on human psychology..american culture is spread by way of the media, esp the movies.These create an impression on people about america. The freedom hype, the casual character..America served as an ideal contrast to more rigid cultures. Cultures spread by osmosis getting adopted by the few trend setters and being taken up by the many, when its safe.
    So do people ‘want’ american things? Or are they conditioned to adopt them by a cultural version of mass hysteria?

  • Clavos

    “The reason mexicans are flooding into US is because US set up NAFTA with mexicos then govt.”

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    Mexicans have been coming (legally and illegally) into the US ever since the end of WW II, when the US economy began to boom; decades before NAFTA, which only went into effect during the 1990s.

    And, much of South Texas today is populated by Tex-Mexs who have been there three generations or more; many flocked there right after Texas won its war with Mexico and seceded to become an independent republic in 1836.

  • Clavos

    “…and the money they send back to Mexico improves living conditions there and creates more opportunities for homegrown businesses and economic growth in Mexico.

    That money is the second largest source (after petroleum) of foreign revenue for Mexico.

    It’s VERY important to the economic well-being of the country.

  • troll

    Franco – there are lots of folks for whom scarcity is nothing new and for whom the plight of the Venezuelan middle class doesn’t work as a tear jerker

    as a supporter of the system can you explain why after a century of capitalist rule in the Americas there is such a large group of impoverished people in need of some basic redistribution – ?

  • Clavos

    One word, troll:

    corruption.

  • brian

    Dave:’And to address some later person’s silly accusation that this is akin to slavery, they are better off here in the US, and the money they send back to Mexico improves living conditions there and creates more opportunities for homegrown businesses and economic growth in Mexico.’

    theyd be better off in their country with an intact economy… The money they send back to mexico is money taken from mexico… home grown businesses? You maen like the sweatshops across the border from US?

    Maquiladora

    ‘A maquiladora or maquila is a factory that imports materials and equipment on a duty-free and tariff-free basis for assembly or manufacturing and then re-exports the assembled product, usually back to the originating country.

    “Maquiladora” is primarily used to refer to factories in Mexican towns along the United States-Mexico border, but increasingly is used to refer to factories all over Latin America. Maquiladora factories encompass a variety of industries including electronics, transportation, textile, and machinery, among others. Maquiladoras may be 100% foreign-owned (usually by U.S. companies) in most countries. The use of maquiladoras is an example of offshoring.

    The term “maquiladora”, in the Spanish language, refers to the practice of millers charging a “maquila”, or “miller’s portion” for processing other people’s grain.[2]


    One of the main goals of the BIP was to attract foreign investment. In order to do that, Mexican labor must remain cheap and competitive with other major export countries to keep the United States firms operating within the Mexican assembly plants. So to keep production high and costs low, maquiladoras have been accused of harsh working environments, which include low wages, forced overtime, and illegal working conditions for minors. Mexican women work for approximately one-sixth of the U.S. hourly rate.[18] It has also been reported that the income one receives from work in a maquiladora is rarely enough to support a family. Low wages are a main reason for foreign investment. However, some management personnel condone low wages in maquiladoras by arguing that the cost of living is lower in Mexico than in other countries. Employee turnover is also relatively high, reaching up to 80 percent in some maquiladoras, due in part to stress and health threats common to this type of labor.

    AS we know, amerian companies have been takng their production overseas or across the border where labor is cheap, in order to maximise profits…

    See my post on china, Mattel and slave labour above for a more ghastly version of this practice.

  • brian

    Dave clearly approves of sweatshopping. As he dose of destroying local communities to provide a cheap supply of labor (case with mexico).

    ‘AMY GOODMAN: What is your response to this report that came out, the Guardian — the London Observer revealing that the kids, as young as ten years old, subjected to working these very long hours, also being beaten? Charlie Kernaghan, you’re the one who first exposed Gap. Now Gap’s saying they’re going to cut their ties with this subcontractor. Talk about your history with the Gap.’
    Democracy Now

  • brian

    ‘That money is the second largest source (after petroleum) of foreign revenue for Mexico.

    It’s VERY important to the economic well-being of the country.’

    if its so good, why doesnt US do the same thing..send its workers abroad, say to japan, top send back foreign revenue…to fund more of their wars?
    What a nitwit idea…but then americans come in two sizes: nitwit and capitalist monster.

  • troll

    part and parcel of capitalism Clavos

  • Clavos

    “if its so good, why doesnt US do the same thing”

    Aples and oranges, brian.

    Mexican workers who come here are paid better than they would be back home in Mexico, for the same work.

    American workers, among the highest paid in the world, would have to be willing to accept lower wages in order to go work overseas.

    As you said, a nitwit idea.

    Not the same thing at all.

  • brian

    ‘How about Dr. Norman Borlaug, a Caucasian American, who, as the “Father of the Green Revolution,” is credited as having singlehandedly fed more people than any other person in history?’

    Youre joking…that man has killed more farmers and created more malnutrition in the third world than any man in history. His work has also helped to promote terrorism:

    ‘The Green Revolution, awarded a Nobel Prize for Peace in 1970, has contributed to two social and environmental disasters in India. One was the extremist movement and terrorism in Punjab, which led to the military assault on the Golden Temple and finally the assassination of Indira Gandhi in 1984. The other was the gas leak from the Union Carbide pesticides plant in Bhopal, which killed 3,000 people on that tragic night of December 1984. In the two decades since that tragedy, 30,000 people have died in Bhopal due to the leak of these toxic gases. The Punjab violence also took the lives of 30,000 people in the years following 1984.

    Why did a ‘Revolution’ awarded a Nobel Peace Prize lead to so much violence? The Green Revolution came with a promise of peace. But its crude linearity – Technology -> Prosperity -> Peace – failed. The reason for this failure was because the technologies of the Green Revolution, like technologies of war, leave nature and society impoverished. To expect prosperity to grow out of violent technologies that destroy the earth, erode biodiversity, deplete and pollute water and leave peasants indebted and in ruins was a false assumption made during the launch of Green Revolution. This false assumption is being repeated in the launch of the Second Green Revolution based on biotechnology and genetic engineering, which are at the core of the US – India agreement.

    The ‘terrorism’ and ‘extremism’ in Punjab was born out of the experience of injustice of the Green Revolution as a development model, which centralized power and appropriated resources and earth from the people. In the words of Gurmata from the All Sikh Convention (quoted in my book, The Violence of the Green Revolution), on 13th April 1986,

    “If the hard-earned income of the people or the natural resources of any nation or the region are forcibly plundered; if the goods produced by them are paid for at arbitrarily determined prices while the goods bought are sold at higher prices and if, in order to carry this process of economic exploitation to its logical conclusion, the human rights of a nation, region or people are lost then the people will be like the Sikhs today – shackled by the chains of slavery.”

    The peasants and people of Punjab were clearly not experiencing the Green Revolution as a source of prosperity and freedom. For them it was slavery. The Green Revolution, the social and ecological impacts it had, and the responses it created among an angry and disillusioned peasantry, has many lessons for our times, both for understanding the roots of terrorism and searching for solutions to violence.

    These are connections our leaders fail to make. The more they fight terrorism, the more they create it with their policies that create economic insecurity. The more they talk democracy, the more they destroy freedom by imposing trade rules and policies that deny people freedom and work against farmers and citizens. The Agreement on Agriculture of the WTO was drafted by a Cargill official. TheTrade Related Intellectual Property Rights Agreement was drafted by a group of US corporations including Monsanto. Monsanto’s seed monopolies have already pushed thousands of farmers in India to suicide. Promoting commerce for Monsanto and Cargill through the US India Agreement on Agriculture will kill more farmers, and ultimately destroy India’s food security, sovereignty and democracy, fuelling more terrorism and extremism.

    The Science and Technology Cooperation Agreement between US and India establishes intellectual property protocols of research by passing consultation with Indian scientists and the Indian public which has been resisting the US style IPR regimes which force countries to patent life, and create monopolies on seeds, medicine and software. For us, these agreements are instruments of corporate dictatorship; they are not instruments of democracy. And as dictatorship, they will fuel more anger, more discontent, more frustration.
    ZMag

    The ‘Green’ Revolution was not about environmentally sound agriculture, but about industrialised hybrid rice and chemicals… so:

    ‘With the high-chemical input based technology that mined the soils and ultimately led to the lands gasping for breath, with the water-guzzling crops (hybrids and Bt cotton) sucking the groundwater aquifer dry, and with the failure of the markets to rescue the farmers from a collapse of the farming systems, the tragedy is that the human cost is entirely being borne by the farmers.(5) In Punjab, for instance, of the 138 development blocks, 84 have already been declared dark zones, the level of groundwater exploitation in these blocks has been in excess of 98 per cent against the critical limit of 80 per cent. Six of the 12 districts in the State have recorded groundwater utilization rate of 100 per cent. The National Bureau of Soil Survey and Land Use Planning in India estimates that nearly 120 million hectares of the total cultivable land of 142 million hectares in the country is degraded. The fundamental issue of destruction of sustainable livelihoods is not at all being addressed.(6)
    In Motion

    This is what the monster Borlaug wrought..

  • Clavos

    But there’s a difference in Latin America, troll.

    LatAm corruption is inherent and ubiquitous in all their cultures, regardless of economic system,
    from my homeland to the tip of Tierra del Fuego.

    There’s plenty of corruption in Cuba, e.g.

  • brian

    ‘Mexican workers who come here are paid better than they would be back home in Mexico, for the same work.

    American workers, among the highest paid in the world, would have to be willing to accept lower wages in order to go work overseas. ‘

    in fact, many american workers now would have to go overseas, to follow their jobs…

    This is a community that has seen its best efforts to make the transition to a high-tech economy foiled by the harsh realities of the global marketplace. Reading, located in a state whose 21 electoral votes are a prime target for President Bush and his Democratic challenger, John Kerry, is now a symbol of one of the most controversial topics on the campaign trail: the “outsourcing” of jobs overseas. ‘
    USA Today

    The harsh realities of the global marketplace…but these ‘realities’ were created by business men allied to governments.

  • brian

    market forces raise all yachts..and sink all row boats…as mexicans and now american workers are discovering and you seek to ignore.

    Plenty of corruption in Cuba? Thats funny coming from an american! Or havent you heard of the Abramoff scandal..the tip of a very big iceberg.

  • Clavos

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    Dr. Borlaug can’t be blamed for Bhopal any more than I, as an investor in Union Carbide, can.

    Dr. Borlaug’s work, most of which took place in the 1950s, resulted in farmers being able to multiply their grain yields per acre many times over. He developed by breeding, not chemicals hybrid strains of wheat and other grains. The result was the prevention of the starvation of millions of people, and it is ongoing.

    You have some truly bizarre notions.

  • Clavos

    “in fact, many american workers now would have to go overseas, to follow their jobs….”,

    But, they’d be paid less, so they don’t.

  • Clavos

    “and sink all row boats”

    Nope. The row boats (and even the flotsam and jetsam) all rise too.

  • Clavos

    “Plenty of corruption in Cuba? Thats funny coming from an american!”

    You completely missed the point, brian, and I’m not going to bother to explain it to you; it’s too much trouble.

    I never said there wasn’t corruption in America, brian. There isn’t a country in the world that is free of corruption.

    Wherever there are human beings, there is corruption, just as there is evil in all human societies; both are part of the human condition.

  • troll

    why does no one who uses that boats metaphor ignore the boats that are anchored securely to the bottom – ?

  • troll

    ‘everyone’ not ‘no one’ of course

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Troll, might as well ask why no one takes the next logical step and points out that if the boat has a hole in it then it’s going to sink and not float at all.

    And to take it one step farther, I think that some economies have bigass gaping holes in their boats. The most notable mostly being quasi-socialist regimes which can’t figure out how the hell to make a transition to at least managed capitalism – North Korea and Cuba being glaring examples. Considering the great examples of countries like China and Vietnam which patched their boats, it’s hard to believe.

    Dave

  • troll

    I can’t help but wonder where Cuba’s economy would be had it developed in a free trade environment instead of under sanctions

  • Lapdog

    “Yeah you are right, penicilin is the ONLY drug out there. Great point.”

    Not a great point at all, shuhbox.

    It’s yours.

    Not mine.

  • Lapdog

    Sorry Franco, you spoiled me with #350.

    I’m not interested in anything you have to say unless you say it in rhyme.

  • brian

    ‘Nope. The row boats (and even the flotsam and jetsam) all rise too.’

    not in places like Mexico, or the mexicans would stay at home…show me where the poor are better off under the american system? Nowhere in latin america. Thats why they voted Chavez and morales and Correa etc.

  • brian

    [Edited. Brian, this space is for people to state their own thoughts, not reproduce the work of others.

    Furthermore it is time you learned to format a link correctly. Please read the following simple explanation of how to format a link.]

    This ‘man’ praises the use of chemicals, while ignoring both their dangers and alternatives.

  • brian

    clavos: ‘You completely missed the point, brian, and I’m not going to bother to explain it to you; it’s too much trouble.’

    since you cant be bothered to explain it to me, i take it my point was effective. That the US is one of the most corrupt, greedy, violent aggressive and hypocrtical nations on earth. I suggest you clean up your own backyard before you complain about others…esp the topic of ‘corruption.

  • brian

    ‘The result was the prevention of the starvation of millions of people, and it is ongoing.’

    Starving millions? What starving millions… you mean people without food… or people without money to buy food..? Here is an interesting analysis of Stormin’ Normans Green non-Revolution:

    ‘FOOD, WORLD HUNGER, AND POPULATION GROWTH

    First, there is an obvious question about the logic of Bourlag’s assertion that the increased yield from Green Revolution farming arrived just in time to save hundreds of millions, maybe billions, of earth’s swelling human masses from starvation in the 20th century. One could just as easily frame the issue the other way around: Might it have been the suddenly increased availability of cheap food that itself allowed the global population to rise so quickly? Remember the old saying about “tasks expand to fill the amount of time allowed them”? A version of that may apply here.

    Another way to look at the question is whether the Green Revolution has been successful at eliminating hunger. It hasn’t. Since the Green Revolution kicked into high gear in the 1960s, there has been only a modest reduction in the number of people starving or chronically hungry. In 1970, there were an estimated 942 hundred million people in that category; in 2002, the United Nations reported that the number is currently 842 million. This modest reduction has been almost entirely due to lower levels of hunger among the Chinese population, with the number of hungry people increasing in most other areas of the world.

    It is true, of course, that a few billion more people ARE being fed today compared to half a century ago. But it’s far too simplistic to give the Green Revolution the credit. Two of the main factors that do deserve credit are improvements in seeds via hybridization and major increases in the use of irrigation, including the unsustainable over-pumping of groundwater. These factors plus the chemicals of the Green Revolution combined to put plant growth into overdrive.

    THE DOWNSIDE OF THE GREEN REVOLUTIONSo, if the Green Revolution did help increase total food output, what’s not to like? Plenty. The technologies of the green revolution should be looked at as the plant equivalent of steroid use in human athletes. A jock that uses steroids will gain muscle and strength faster and have a competitive advantage. But the big boost is not sustainable over a long period of time, and the negative side effects are well known and often catastrophic to the athlete.

    In the case of Green Revolution farming, the chemicals used pollute our land, air, and water; the switch from heavily rotated multiple crops to mono-cropping or dual-cropping reduces total soil fertility and the nutritional value of our food; and the lower number of seed varieties used reduces the genetic diversity found in crops, thus endangering the stability of farm output in the future. The side effects related to soil fertility and genetic diversity will ultimately take their toll. Indeed, yield increases in today’s farm fields have generally leveled off and, in cases such as rice and wheat, yields are beginning to decline in some areas.

    Let’s be a little more specific about the problems associated with Green Revolution farming:

    Farmers, farm workers, and all of us are continually exposed to chemical pesticides due to their widespread use, with each of us carrying a body burden of the toxins.
    Countless numbers of streams, rivers, and drinking water sources are degraded due to pesticide and fertilizer runoff.
    Major portions of bays and gulfs are oxygen-starved coastal dead zones due to algal blooms that are fed by fertilizer runoff.
    Wildlife suffer from genetic mutations due to the farming chemicals that contaminate their ponds and swamps. Notable examples: Genetic mutations in frogs and abnormal genitalia in alligators.
    State advisories for locally caught fish are chock-full of warnings about fish species contaminated with pesticides.

    People, dont starve because there is not enough food, and you dont feed them by destroying valuable agricultural land! Which is what Borlaugs system does.
    People starve because they lack the money to buy food.

    You may dream of living in a sea of chemicals, but farmers experience this hazard thanks to people like Borlaug, who merely exported western style chemical farming…with disastrous results.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘And to take it one step farther, I think that some economies have bigass gaping holes in their boats. The most notable mostly being quasi-socialist regimes which can’t figure out how the hell to make a transition to at least managed capitalism – North Korea and Cuba being glaring examples. Considering the great examples of countries like China and Vietnam which patched their boats, it’s hard to believe.’

    ===================
    Its interesting that Dave mentions China, for as ive already shown, China uses cheap shoddy materials (witness Mattels woes), and child and sweatshop labor….Dave understandable ignores these problems with China.
    Note too that US industries are intimitaley involved in these crimes and disasters!

    These gaping holes dont compare to those in the US boat…where workers are falling thru those holes as their jobs get sent too China.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    People starve because they lack the money to buy food.

    This one statement sums up the whole world of flawed assumptions you live in, Brian.

    Most people in the world should not have to BUY food with money. They should be able to grow it for themselves or barter for it within their own communities.

    But for decades the thrust of the internationalist NGOs has been to make the poor of the world less self-sufficient and more dependent on handouts and charity while at the same time encouraging them to move away from subsistence agriculture and into supposedly profitable enterprises, causing entire societies to lose the ability to sustain their own population.

    The problem with making people earn money to buy food instead of producing food themselves is that if things go a little wrong, you cannot EAT money.

    Dave

  • brian

    [Edited] US is not only excporting its corn to the country that created modern corn, it is cynically destroying the home producers in Mexico creating poverty and so people who in the end cant even buy american corn!

  • brian

    Dave: ‘Most people in the world should not have to BUY food with money. They should be able to grow it for themselves or barter for it within their own communities.’

    Thats rich Dave. I quite agree…BUT modern agriculture is not a mom-and-pop farm.Its big business..agribusiness, which is interest in making huge profits and doesnt care how many real farmers suffer. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

    Dave: ‘But for decades the thrust of the internationalist NGOs has been to make the poor of the world less self-sufficient and more dependent on handouts and charity while at the same time encouraging them to move away from subsistence agriculture and into supposedly profitable enterprises, causing entire societies to lose the ability to sustain their own population’

    See my post on Corn….in fact its capitalism that has made the farmers less self-sufficient. Your cynical use of the self-sufficient argument is amazing…given Free Trade is about destroying self-sufficiency.

  • brian

    Dave:’ The problem with making people earn money to buy food instead of producing food themselves is that if things go a little wrong, you cannot EAT money.’

    surprisingly i agree with u. I dont know where you get the idea that i approve of paying money for food…but thats an invention of civilisation.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Well, I reached that conclusion because you seemed to take purchase of food for money as an absolute given in your discussion with Clavos.

    One of the biggest problems we face right now in the world is the completely nonsensical efforts of the forces of ‘progress’ to try to modernize everyone all over the world, even when it’s not necessarily in their best interest.

    Whether it’s businesses looking for workers, NGOs trying to help people become more ‘modern’ and ‘productive’ or just their own governments trying to compete with neighbors, a whole bunch of peopel are being pushed into lifestyles to which they are not suited, or which are not compatible with their living environment or culture. That kind of change cannot be imposed from above or made with any kind of speed, and it’s debatable whether it should even be attempted.

    The end result is people who are much more at risk for famine, disease, chaos and violence than they would be otherwise, and the people who ultimately benefit from it are generally the elitists of the international organizations and the dictators and oligarchs who run the governments.

    Dave

  • brian

    ‘Well, I reached that conclusion because you seemed to take purchase of food for money as an absolute given in your discussion with Clavos.’
    \
    In fact one problem with farming today as ive said is its been turned into a big business to the detriment of small farmers. Because farming is seen as economically important to the state, the stater supports agribusiness..

    Dave: ‘One of the biggest problems we face right now in the world is the completely nonsensical efforts of the forces of ‘progress’ to try to modernize everyone all over the world, even when it’s not necessarily in their best interest.’

    True.But ‘modernising’ benefits certain industries. Thats why its promoted.But you are right. The latest eg is in Vietnam, where a thai multi national has managed to persuade the vietnamese govt to get rid of backyard chicken farmers in preference to their own factory chicken yards…using bird flu as an excuse.

  • Clavos

    “show me where the poor are better off under the american system? Nowhere in latin america. Thats why they voted Chavez and morales and Correa etc.”

    The problems all over latAm are not due to the “American system” as you call it; they are due to the fact that corruption is both ubiquitous and inherent in virtually every Latin American country including, as I said before, Cuba, which is decidedly NOT using the “American system.”

    And you ask where the poor are better off under the American system?

    Right here in America, where a person on welfare and food stamps is better off than ANY of the poor in India.

  • Clavos

    “since you cant be bothered to explain it to me, i take it my point was effective.”

    Take it any way you want. I don’t brook fools.

  • Clavos

    “In 1970, Norman Borlaug was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his work in developing high-yielding varieties (HYVs) of wheat. The “Green Revolution”, launched by Borlaug’s “miracle seeds”, is often credited with having transformed India from “a begging bowl to a bread basket.”, and the Punjab is frequently cited as the Green Revolution’s most celebrated success story.’ Yet, far from bringing prosperity, two decades of the Green Revolution have left the Punjab riddled with discontent and violence. Instead of abundance, the Punjab is beset with diseased soils, pest-infested crops, waterlogged deserts and indebted and discontented farmers. Instead of peace, the Punjab has inherited conflict and violence.”

    And all that is Norman Borlaug’s fault???

    Could the Punjabi farmers perhaps be maybe just a teensy-weensy, tiny bit at fault for causing their own problems?

    Could the Punjabi farmers be inept? Could they have misused the chemicals?

    Why are those same methods and seeds employed so successfully in this country, without “conflict and violence,” without “diseased soils, pest-infested crops, waterlogged deserts and indebted and discontented farmers?”

    brian, you’re a very clever and energetically monolithic partisan. I suspect you’re actually a paid advocate.

    Your posts have clearly inspired many BC readers to overthrow the capitalist system worldwide, starting with assassinating Norman Borlaug, and installing Hugo Chavez as president for life of this hemisphere, if not the world.

    But, I remain unconvinced.

    Norman Borlaug is one of the 20th century’s greatest human beings; few people in history have had such a beneficial impact on the well-being of mankind.

    And millions upon millions of people have benefited from his work. That’s a fact, supported by thousands of agronomists worldwide.

    Carry on, brian. Good luck.

  • Clavos

    Here’s an interesting and germane quote from Dr. Borlaug, published in Wikipedia:

    “Of environmental lobbyists he has stated, “some of the environmental lobbyists of the Western nations are the salt of the earth, but many of them are elitists. They’ve never experienced the physical sensation of hunger. They do their lobbying from comfortable office suites in Washington or Brussels. If they lived just one month amid the misery of the developing world, as I have for fifty years, they’d be crying out for tractors and fertilizer and irrigation canals and be outraged that fashionable elitists back home were trying to deny them these things”.”

  • troll

    Clavos – brian simply offers yet another synoptic destructive critique of the way things are without suggesting alternatives – useful for his own edification but old news to many readers

    I’ll be more interested in following his argument when he gets around to making proposals

  • Clavos

    Excellent point, troll.

    Off topic for a moment:

    Any developments on the job front?

  • troll

    …still trying to work out the next cosmic hustle – hopefully one that yields close to the satisfaction of working with horses

    fomenting revolution perhaps

  • Clavos

    Heh.

    I thought that’s what you do here on BC?

    Your perspective is one of the most unique (and interesting) ones on these threads.

    I’m listening.

  • troll

    the revolution I’m participating in here is the one based on the idea that folks of all stripes can communicate and share ideas

    we don’t need no stinkin’ government – we need a principled bureaucracy based on our developing ability to organize information and new relations of production

    …no big deal

  • Clavos

    “we need a principled bureaucracy based on our developing ability to organize information and new relations of production”

    Another damned good point. The key word up there, of course, is “principled;” something that over my lifetime, I’ve found is in distressingly short supply pretty much everywhere.

  • brian

    ‘The problems all over latAm are not due to the “American system” as you call it; they are due to the fact that corruption is both ubiquitous and inherent in virtually every Latin American country including, as I said before, Cuba, which is decidedly NOT using the “American system.”‘

    the american system was tried out by Pinochet in Chile, and capsized Argentina..THAT american system

  • brian

    ‘Brian, this space is for people to state their own thoughts, not reproduce the work of others. ‘

    Really, i thought this space was to get at the truth..not post mere opinions! Thats all i seem to see…peoples cockamamee opinions.Thats a real waste of space.

  • Clavos

    A point I forgot to make above, troll:

    I think the full import of the significance of the internet is sorely underestimated by everyone (me included), if for no other reason than that all of the implications regarding its significance and potential haven’t even been fully thought through (or discovered) yet.

    I’m pretty certain, however, that it will prove to be the most important development in communications since Gutenberg.

    And that it will bring about significant (and probably massive) changes in societal and cultural structures world wide.

    I just hope that those changes are benevolent and not simply a more efficient means to subjugate the many for the benefit of the few.

  • brian

    ‘Could the Punjabi farmers perhaps be maybe just a teensy-weensy, tiny bit at fault for causing their own problems?’

    strange how the punjabi farmers problems arose AFTER stormin Norman came to lend a hand.

  • brian

    ‘Norman Borlaug is one of the 20th century’s greatest human beings; few people in history have had such a beneficial impact on the well-being of mankind.’

    he will go down in history as one of the major polluters of agriculture in the third world.

    ‘Clavos – brian simply offers yet another synoptic destructive critique of the way things are without suggesting alternatives – useful for his own edification but old news to many readers’

    ive already suggested alternatives: eg SRI rice farming…Just google it.

  • Clavos

    “the american system was tried out by Pinochet in Chile”

    And it’s working. They have one of the most viable (though not perfect) economic systems in LatAm.

    And as for the Argentines; they capsized themselves. The “American system” had nothing to do with it.

    Corruption, corruption, corruption.

    Everywhere in latAm.

  • brian

    ‘Here’s an interesting and germane quote from Dr. Borlaug, published in Wikipedia:

    “Of environmental lobbyists he has stated, “some of the environmental lobbyists of the Western nations are the salt of the earth, but many of them are elitists. They’ve never experienced the physical sensation of hunger.’

    And Norman has! But this special pleading is so typical of the Borlaug scoundrel types who love to use the poor as emotional crutches…Do the poor peasant farmers poisoned by Borlaug’s chemicals feel the same way?

    ‘They do their lobbying from comfortable office suites in Washington or Brussels. If they lived just one month amid the misery of the developing world,’

    Now thats an interestin phrasing: ‘misery of the developing world’…Can it be th misery is a result of ‘developing’? Yes, as Vandana Shiva has argued.

    ‘as I have for fifty years, they’d be crying out for tractors and fertilizer and irrigation canals and be outraged that fashionable elitists back home were trying to deny them these things’
    ============================
    Fertilisers? You mean those chemicals that ruin the land? and poison the earth and water?

  • Silver Surfer

    Not so bad in Chile.

  • Clavos

    “the former is a scientific conman, exposed by Vandana Shiva”

    Ah, yes.

    vandana shiva, winner of the “BULLSHIT AWARD FOR SUSTAINING POVERTY,” awarded to her by the Liberty Institute of New Delhi for her “her important contribution to sustaining poverty around the world, in her role as a mouthpiece of western eco-imperialism.”

    Yep. She really is an impressive authority. She wants the whole world to go back to primitive, inefficient farming methods.

    What a progressive!

    Barun Shankar Mitra, of the Liberty Institute has this to say about her:

    “”Vandana Shiva is an individual whose immense presence at the World Summit on Sustainable Development and other global meetings, and her passionate defense of poverty, has resonated as far as newspapers and TV cameras can be found.

    “Millions of people rely on backbreaking labor and low-intensity subsistence farming, not out of choice but out of necessity, yet Ms. Shiva claims that modern agricultural technologies are too dangerous for the poor. But given the choice, poor rural farmers seize the opportunity to use modern technologies to improve their agricultural productivity. Ultimately, it is farmers who should make the choice over what technologies they use, not eco-imperialists such as Shiva. Farmers are the most important stakeholder in this debate and their voice must not be ignored.

    Farmers are choosing modern agricultural technologies out of their own free will – and for good reasons. And by so doing they are benefiting the environment. Low intensity farming not only hurts farmers, but also endangers environmental quality. Poverty and environmental degradation go hand in hand – and modern technologies alleviate poverty and enable environmental protection. This means that we should empower poor people to use these technologies, to increase their consumption of resources, which will benefit them as well the environment.”

    Obviously, vandana shiva is a twenty first century Luddite.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    OK, I’ve had it with the duelling quotes now.

    NO more!

    Speak for yourselves or, well, shut up.

    “Next to the originator of a good sentence is the first quoter of it. I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.” — Emerson

    ;-)

  • Clavos

    OK Chris.

    You’re saying wee should leave the links out and the quotes off.

    Right?

  • troll

    ive already suggested alternatives: eg SRI rice farming

    I seem to have missed your earlier reference to SRI…where was that again – ? and while we’re at it how ’bout you help out an old troll and point to some of the other suggested alternatives that you claim

  • troll

    sheer foolishness is highly underrated

  • Lapdog

    brian, are you familiar with the work of Masanobu Fukuoka. I read ‘The One Straw Revolution’ a few years ago and thought his ideas made a lot of sense. There’s a page about him and his research at Wikipedia.

  • moonraven

    Since Franco (once again EDITED BY DAVE NALLE) has so little to say that he tries to keep an anti-Chavez flame burning by REPOSTING OLD POSTS by Miami residents, I would like to have him take up THIS cause:

    Yesterday, when I arrived back at the small Mexican village where I live I asked for a half kilo of eggs at the tiny store right off the main plaza.

    There were NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO eggs!

    (Unlike in Venezuela, where basic food items such as eggs, black beans–those fuckers again–and in Venezuela they do not even prepare them with epazote to give them flavor and tone down their farts potency like we do here–milk, etc. are hoarded by merchants because of price controls, here in Mexico they are not–therefore the merchant has no reason not to have them right out there on the shelf 24/7 and so their absence has to be the fault of Mexico’s president, Felipe Calderon!

    Impeccable logic, right?

    I want you to post a slew of hateful comments about how Felipe Calderon (whom you do not know, but SO WHAT–you do not know Hugo Chavez, either) has ruined my life, and is deliberately starving me to death and therefore violating my human rights because I oppose his policies!

    To the battle stations, ersatz Latin Americans!

    I hope that someone on this site with an IQ that at least breaks into THREE DIGITS sees the point I am making about how absolutely ABSURD these kinds of complaints are.

    If I hear one more time about no black beans in the wealthy Caracas neighborhood of Chacao, I will personally buy several kilos in my local mercado and shove them–one by one–up your (plural) whining orifices.

    Troll,

    Meanwhile, back to some substance–to wit, Gregory Wilpert’s book, CHANGING VENEZUELA BY TAKING POWER:

    I read all but the epilogue last night.

    Nalle should be happy to hear–since he would never consider READING anything by anyone who even MIGHT disagree with his tunnel-vision worldview–that Wilpert does consider that creating a low-level personality cult around Chavez is always a clear and present danger.

    But his take is that it is dangerous for the Bolivarian Project–not only because it implies too much dependence on one person–but BECAUSE CHAVEZ’ CHARISMA HAS BEEN A UNIFYING FACTOR FOR….THE US-BACKED OPPOSITION.

    The reason why no one stays on-topic on this site is because most of its habitual posters are folks who know absolutely NOTHING about Latin America–whether they live HERE or not–and just post to get attention.

  • moonraven

    There is horseshit stinking up the internet today to the effect that one of the chavista parties, podemos, has repudiated Chavez’s constitutional reform process.

    Actually:

    “One party in the Chavez coalition, Podemos, has dissented from the process, with the argument that the AN is violating the constitution by incorporating changes to the reform that were not part of the PRESIDENT’S original proposal and were thus not part of the previous two discussions of the AN. Podemos representatives have submitted a challenge to the process in the country’s Supreme Court, which has yet to rule on the matter.”
    (caps mine)

    Among the most important changes to the 1999 constitution that the President and the National Assembly recommend are the following:

    An extension of the presidential term from six to seven years and the elimination of the two-term limit on presidential election.

    Voting age lowered from 18 to 16 years

    Prohibition of foreign funding of political activity in Venezuela

    (Hence opposition parties are whining and shitting themselves outside the AN building–hah–if they had not boycotted the 2005 election for AN members they could be involved in this process.)

    Gender parity in the setting up of candidates for public office

    Guaranteed free university education

    Prohibition of discrimination based on sexual orientation

    36-hour workweek

    Social security for self-employed

    Guaranteed funding for communal councils

    Non-independence of the central bank

    Toughening of requirements for citizen-initiated referenda

    Source is venezuelanalysis.com

  • Martin Lav

    ‘free’ peppers == Brian

    Now I get why every latino wants to come to this country, with Americans always advertising this!
    Used to be the streets were paved in gold, now it’s free peppers……

  • Clavos

    “Toughening of requirements for citizen-initiated referenda”

    How democratic…

  • moonraven

    Sure is–it’s democratic as hell to save taxpayers money by eliminating the cost of having to count signatures over and over again and even start all over from scratch because folks chose not to follow the rules and turned in pawprints, thousands of Xs, the same signature hundreds of times, and collected signatures after the deadline for turning them in–just the usual Made in Miami fraudulent capers.

  • STM

    Lapdog: “brian, are you familiar with the work of Masanobu Fukuoka? … there’s a Wikipedia page.”

    Love the surname.

    But I digress – just what we need, eh? Another link from Brian. He’s already going flat chat, furiously looking up internet links to support his tenuous arguments. He seems to have taken a leaf out of Anand’s book. Bizarre, that.

    Perhaps they could join forces and drown us in links about Punjabi farmers, obnscure indian political figures and posts on the flailing US economy – all linked (with links) in a vain attempt to further a boring, seemingly endless circular argument.

  • troll

    what argument – ?

  • STM

    Fukuoka, troll :)

  • troll

    xxoo

  • http://schuhbox schuhbox

    Damn those waterlogged deserts!!

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Troll,

    Finished reading the Gregory Wilpert book, CHANGING VENEZUELA BY TAKING POWER.

    Continued to be irritated by the sloppy/nonexistent editing, but would recommend it for good information and a very balanced presentation of same.

  • troll

    Marthe – I’m feeling a bit ambivalent about making entries just now as those steroids that our comments editor takes appear to have kicked in…

  • Franco

    #409 — troll

    I see by your statement that I have failed to correctly convey my meaning. So I will adjust/rephrase accordingly.

    Your question is a good one and Clavos is right, but I would like to open that up just a bit.

    I just got back from being away and….. busy ….. I will reply soon.

  • troll

    my breath is bated

  • Clavos

    More trouble in Hugolandia.

    On Thursday, thousands of students and other protesters flooded the streets of Caracas to protest Chavez’s proposed constitutional “reforms,” including removing term limits from the presidency and allowing the detention of citizens by authorities without charges during emergencies.

    According to the CNN article cited,

    “Opposition parties, human rights groups and representatives of the Roman Catholic Church fear civil liberties would be severely weakened under the constitutional changes.”

  • Lapdog

    Thousands of protesters in Caracas in November.

    100,000 protesters in Washington in September.

    That’ll shake things up!

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Eyewitnesses to that March in Washington back in September put the actual numbers well under 40K, which in a nation of 300,000,000 people is pretty trivial.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    “…well under 40K,…” protestsrs marched in Washington DC.

    Population 5,800,000

    Less than 10K protesters marched in Caracas.

    Population 4,700,000

    Whoop-de-do!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    In both cases protesters came from all over the countries in question, so comparing them to the population of the city is meaningless. Virtually no DC natives were in that march. They were bussed in from miles and miles away.

    Plus protesters in DC are protected by the cops, while protesters in Caracas are threatened by the cops. Getting 10K to turn out under those conditions is pretty impressive.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    The protesters in Caracas were paid to hit the streets by the monied elete who are supported by the US. Nothing unusual or impressive about that except for the relatively low turn-out of well under 10K.

    Most of us are aware that protesters in the US are regularly beaten and pepper sprayed by the police.

  • brian

    Clavos…its not hugolandia…its venezuela. And as we know the whitepower elite has never been happy not being in power. The idea that the ‘black monkey(their term) is in power is what arouses their passions. Not the well being of the counrty or its poor citizens.
    S

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘vandana shiva, winner of the “BULLSHIT AWARD FOR SUSTAINING POVERTY,” awarded to her by the Liberty Institute of New Delhi for her “her important contribution to sustaining poverty around the world, in her role as a mouthpiece of western eco-imperialism.”‘

    not another ‘liberty’ bullshit site! AS ive already shown, ‘freedom’ and ‘liberty’ are words much used by the far right….
    Now lets take a look at that ‘Liberty Institute…are they realy concerned about the poor? Or is that a Bullshit front?

    The excelent GMWATCH site keeps tabs on bullsh!t sites so lets se what they have uncovered:

    ‘Liberty Institute
    The Liberty Institute (aka The Julian Simon Centre) is an extreme right-wing anti-regulation pressure group based in New Delhi, India. It’s also part of rightwing coalitions like the US-based International Consumers for Civil Society (ICCS) and the London-based International Policy Network (IPN).

    The institute’s founder and director is Barun Mitra. Mitra and Liberty lobbied hard for commercial approval for Monsanto’s GM cotton, claiming there should be ‘free access’ to new technologies without any government interference: ‘Any government is ill-placed to judge the merits and the potential of any frontier technology. The vetoing power of the government is susceptible to being misused by vested interests who concoct pseudo-scientific arguments and often use unethical means for influencing government’s decisions.’

    In March 2002 in the run up to India’s approval of the commercialisation of Monsanto’s GM cotton, the Liberty Institute hosted a press conference at which representatives of large corporate farmers threatened to grow Monsanto’s GM cotton regardless of regulatory approval. The group of farmers’ leaders present included Sharad Joshi , Chengal Reddy of what was billed as the ‘Indian Farmers Federation’, Mrs. Saroja Kashikar of the Kisan Coordination Committee (KCC) and Bhupinder Singh Mann who is also part of the KCC. None of these ‘farmers’ leaders’ has a significant constituency.

    Liberty and Mitra have strong AgBioWorld connections. Mitra collaborated on a pro-GM AgBioWorld document called ‘critical questions in agricultural biotechnology’ with AgBioWorld co-founder, GregConko of the Competitive Enterprise Institute (described by PR Watch as a ‘well-funded front for corporations’) and Matt Metz. AgBioWorld’s CS Prakash, has taken part in Liberty events in support of GM.

    Liberty has also been a strong supporter of Big Tobacco, publishing an attack on the World Health Organisation by Roger Scruton – the British philosopher recently exposed as being in the pay of the tobacco industry – with a forward by Barun Mitra. In Liberty’s press release for the book it is claimed, ‘The anti-tobacco crusade from the West, like the environmental one as manifested at the WTO meeting Seattle last December, is the newest manifestation of the neo-imperialistic desires.’

    Attacking corporate critics as ‘neo-colonialists’ is a frequent ploy. The Liberty Institute and Mitra are used in this way, as is the Kenyan James Shikwati and the US-based Indian scientist CS Prakash, to put a Third World face on a pro-corporate agenda and to denigrate and discredit civil society movements in the Third World who challenge corporate interests.

    An example of this was a march in support of free trade and biotechnology, involving farmers like Chengal Reddy, at the World Summit on Sustainable Development in Johannesburg in August 2002. James Shikwati wrote a commentary about the march for The (London) Times headlined, ‘I do not need white NGOs to speak for me’. Mitra made a speech during the march in which he gave a ‘Bullshit award for Sustaining Poverty’ to the Indian environmentalist Vandana Shiva. In making the award, Mitra condemned Shiva as ‘a mouthpiece of western eco-imperialism’.

    However, the media contact given on the press releases for both the march and for Mitra’s award was Kendra Okonski, the daughter of a US lumber industrialist who has worked for various right wing anti-regulatory NGOs – all funded and directed by
    ‘whites’. These include the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a
    Washington-based ‘think tank’ whose multi-million dollar budget comes from major US corporations, amongst them BIO member Dow Chemicals. Okonski also runs the website Counterprotest.net, where her specialty is helping right wing lobbyists take to the streets in mimicry of popular protesters.
    Okonski works for the London-based International Policy Network and the deceptively named Sustainable Development Network.

    The Liberty Institute is believed to receive funds from the Atlas Foundation, founded by Anthony Fisher, whose money backs other far right ‘think tanks’ like the International Policy Network and the Institute of Economic Affairs. Other sources of funding are unknown. Dr Vandana Shiva has alledged that Mitra is in the pay of Monsanto. In May 2001 Mitra was awarded the Sir Anthony Fisher Memorial Award at a meeting of the Atlas Foundation. He’s been described as ‘definitely one of a number of emerging young superstars in the international (libertarian) movement’.

    Liberty’s Board of Advisors includes directors or former directors of large companies as well as the executive director of a casino based in Nepal. Liberty supports the need for reforms aimed at greater regulatory flexibility and freedom of choice for consumers in the case of gambling.
    http://www.gmwatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=156

    SO what do we learn? That the Liberty (sic) Institute is another far right industry funded lobby group, with links to Monsanto (whose GM seeds have caused farmers to commit suicide). They are against regulation…which must explain the meaning of ‘liberty’ in their lexicon.

    Any more like that Clavos? Bulshit awards by a bullshit site. Youve made my day! Thanks!

  • brian

    Lapdog: ‘brian, are you familiar with the work of Masanobu Fukuoka. I read ‘The One Straw Revolution’ a few years ago and thought his ideas made a lot of sense.’

    Yes, ive heard of him and even read his book years ago. Great guy. But not the sort of person the Liberty(sic) Institute would invite for a pep talk! They prefer Monsanto!

  • brian

    France..,Clavos is never right….because he is far right!

  • brian

    as for the protests in Venezuela, were they tghe same students who demanded speaking rights in some hall, then when granted them, backed off?!
    They are not democratic so much as disruptive…

  • brian

    ‘I seem to have missed your earlier reference to SRI…where was that again – ? and while we’re at it how ’bout you help out an old troll and point to some of the other suggested alternatives that you claim ‘

    Try using Google….SRI madagascar…or is that too difficult?

  • Clavos

    brian,

    None of your lengthy, unoriginal, cut-and-paste comment refutes the fact that vandana shiva is a Luddite who would take agriculture back to the stone age, starving half its population as a result.

    So, to save a handful of Indian farmers who allegedly killed themselves, you would allow millions to starve to death.

  • troll

    hmmm…but is starving half the humans such a bad idea – ?

    problem is that it’s not nearly enough and would get so ugly

    I’d prefer a voluntary moratorium on breeding…10 years ought to do the trick

    500 million or bust

  • Clavos

    “hmmm…but is starving half the humans such a bad idea – ?”

    To the half that starves? Probably.

  • Lapdog

    brian, thanks for shining a light on the dubious sources of info that Clavos peddles.

    I guess he bought into the chem/gmo/agro package and expects a return.

    I think I’ll dash out and warn all the organic farmers in the area that they’re going to go broke, and we’re all going to go hungry if they insist on growing food and selling it to us.

  • Clavos

    “I think I’ll dash out and warn all the organic farmers in the area that they’re going to go broke”

    Heh.

    Why don’t you take a sledgehammer with you and smash some combines and tractors while you’re at it?

  • REMF

    “So, to save a handful of Indian farmers who allegedly killed themselves, you would allow millions to starve to death.”
    – Clavos

    So the same guy who defends William Calley’s slaughtering of infants, children, women and old men, is now worried about people starving to death??

    No hypocrisy there…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The protesters in Caracas were paid to hit the streets by the monied elete who are supported by the US.

    Let’s see some evidence of that. No one in the major media has claimed that, and there’s no evidence of it that I know of.

    It astonishes me that you find it so hard to accept that people in Venezuela don’t actually like seeing their freedom taken away.

    Nothing unusual or impressive about that except for the relatively low turn-out of well under 10K.

    That’s a hell of a lot of brave people.

    Most of us are aware that protesters in the US are regularly beaten and pepper sprayed by the police.

    More like occasionally, and that’s a lot better than being shot or tracked down later and disappeared as has started happening in Venezuela.

    dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    not another ‘liberty’ bullshit site! AS ive already shown, ‘freedom’ and ‘liberty’ are words much used by the far right….

    I think it says it all about Brian that he thinks that freedom and liberty are bullshit and the exclusive domain of the far right and therefore evil.

    That being the case, why should anyone listen to anything he has to say. He’s a self-admitted enemy of liberty and basic human rights.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “So the same guy who defends William Calley’s slaughtering of infants, children, women and old men, is now worried about people starving to death??”

    One more time (whew!). I did not “defend” Calley’s slaughter, I merely said that he was used as a fall guy by all the lily-livered chickenshit assholes above him, who were equally responsible for what happened at My Lai, beginning with his immediate supervisor, Medina, and running right up through the commander in chief, the redneck LBJ.

    They ALL should have been tried right alongside that kid.

    The same thing happened at Abu Ghraib; they nailed all the low ranking people and let almost all those above them skate. And at Abu Ghraib, the only reason they nailed the unit commander is because she is a woman, and thus not part of the Old Boy network.

    As an EM yourself, you should be able to see the injustice there.

  • Lapdog

    Nalle, you’re letting go of your hinge again.

    “I think it says it all about Brian that he thinks that freedom and liberty are bullshit…”

    That quote says more about you and, to borrow from Warren Zevon, it ain’t that pretty at all.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    So I’ll just lump you in with Brian as one of the enemies of freedom, humanity and basic rights, Lap. I suspected that was the case with all of you tranzi shills, but thanks for confirming it.

    Dave

  • Lapdog

    Nalle, when you start providing evidence (credible, that is) to back up your statements I’ll match you.

    “It astonishes me that you find it so hard to accept that people in Venezuela don’t actually like seeing their freedom taken away.”

    There you go again using the worn out ‘freedom’ ploy. Venezuelans aren’t captives. Any who aren’t happy with the Chavez government are FREE to leave the country.

    How come you never laud the bravery of US citizens who protest against the Bush regime, but here you are praising the mobs in Caracas?

    Pro-Chavez demonstrators are the people you should be concerned about as they’re the ones who were filmed and now are being targeted by hired right wing thugs and cutthroats.

  • Clavos

    “Any who aren’t happy with the Chavez government are FREE to leave the country.”

    Tens of thousands already have; they are very visible here in Miami, where nearly 20,000 voted in the last election–against Chavez, according to news reports and surveys conducted among them.

    Dozens more are arriving on a daily basis.

  • Lapdog

    “Dozens more are arriving on a daily basis.”

    What happened?

    Did Miami put up a WELCOME MALCONTENTS sign?

  • Clavos

    Yep.

    We’re nothing but malcontents here.

    And the beauty of it is, we’re even near the USA, so we can go shopping.

    And you don’t have to be able to speak English to live here–in fact, it’s a handicap–it marks you as a gringo, and you need a passport and visa to enter.

  • Lapdog

    And by the sound of it the tap water is 80 proof.

  • Clavos

    Wrong again, dog.

    I’m a teetotaler.

    Don’t drink at all.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m a teetotaler.

    Don’t drink at all.

    Then who is it drinking half the beer whenever we break out the beach chairs?

    ;-)

  • Clavos

    Ask Tom Tancredo (R-CO) about Miami, dog.

    He says we’re a third world city, and he’s probably right (though a racist).

    Culturally, we’re certainly closer to Buenos Aires or Bogota than Denver or Washington, D.C.

    And we like it that way.

  • Clavos

    I wasn’t going to tell you this, Doc (didn’t want to hurt your feelings), but I’m drinking root beer when we do that.

    You’re even funnier than usual after 3 or 4 cold ones, BTW.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    That’s the last time I send you to the liquor store with my $50. Telling me you bought yourself a crate of Bud when all the time you’ve been guzzling A&W.

    Sheesh. I only hope you invested the change wisely.

    A teetotaller, begad. And you call yourself a sailor…!

  • Clavos

    “How sharper than a serpent’s tooth…”

    Egad, Doc, ’twasn’t always that way; in my younger and healthier days I tippled and quaffed wi’ th’ best of ‘em…

  • REMF

    “That being the case, why should anyone listen to anything he has to say. He’s a self-admitted enemy of liberty and basic human rights.”
    – Dave Nalle

    “Johnny, if you play with Billy, no one is going to like you.”
    – An insecure 4th grade bully/wimp at recess

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘None of your lengthy, unoriginal, cut-and-paste comment refutes the fact that vandana shiva is a Luddite who would take agriculture back to the stone age, starving half its population as a result.

    So, to save a handful of Indian farmers who allegedly killed themselves, you would allow millions to starve to death.’

    =========
    Just for your edujcation…Luddites were workers whose livelihoods were destroyed by new technology brought in to make money. When they rebelled, the govt sent in the army.
    So being a Luddite is a badge of honor…better than being a profiteer who doesnt care of the fate of the workers.

    For your info, their was no agriculture in the stone age…and people were a lot happier…
    go read Marshall Sahlins: Stone Age Economics.

    And your rhetorical tactic is just emblematic of your patent dishonesty. But if ,odern agribusiness continues, its minig of the soil will destroy farmming land and then there will be no stone age to return to…thats what you seem to want.

    ‘Alledgedly killed themselves’? So as far as you are concerned , this didnt happen…thats because the farmer suicides are linked to your buddies.

  • Clavos

    “…Luddites were workers whose livelihoods were destroyed by new technology brought in to make money.”

    Actually, the Luddites began destroying textile machinery and entire mills in early 19th century England because they feared they would lose their jobs as a result of the mechanization. In reality, as always happens when new technology comes on line, thousands of new jobs were created, and the employment rate in England went up, not down.

    From Wikipedia:

    “The term Luddite is a political/historical term relating to a political movement during the Industrial Revolution; currently it is primarily used as a pejorative, describing those perceived as being uncompromisingly or unnecessarily opposed to technological or scientific innovations. (emphasis added)

    And pejoratively is exactly how I used the term.

    Luddites, both then and now, are ignorant, backward folk who lack any kind of foresight or any understanding of how the world works.

    You say:

    “being a Luddite is a badge of honor”
    Ted Kaczynski, the unabomber espoused the same idea. Nice company you keep.

    “For your info, their (sic) was no agriculture in the stone age”

    Exactly my point. If that horribly twisted Indian woman has her way, we’ll all be reduced to living a harsh, brutish life in which only the strongest and most ruthless will survive; that’s what life was like in the stone age. Ask any anthropologist. “People were happier” my ass.

    What arrant nonsense you spout.

  • moonraven

    Brian,

    It’s the best clavos can do: argue in favor of the students from private universities under the direction of “student leader Stalin Gonzales”!

    How I love that name–says it fucking ALL.

    Of course what he does NOT mention is that the Bolivarian students from PUBLIC universities are also out in full form as is indicated here:

    “02 de noviembre 2007. – La Federación de Estudiantes Bolivarianos hizo un llamado a las autoridades a que se avoquen a realizar las investigaciones correspondientes con respecto a las actividades desestabilizadoras que podría estar coordinando la oposición con el objetivo de desestabilizar el país.

    Según explicó el presidente de la federación, Carlos Sierra, “la actuación de los estudiantes oposicionistas del día de ayer en los predios del CNE son prueba de que ya comenzó a desarrollarse un plan de desestabilización que tiene como fin generar un nuevo Golpe de Estado contra el presidente de la República Bolivariana de Venezuela, Hugo Chávez Frías”.

    Igualmente, recomendó a la Comisión Nacional de Telecomunicaciones (Conatel) para que sancionen al canal Globovisión por ser uno de los componentes de desestabilización durante los recientes incidentes del CNE. “Globovisión está conspirando, constantemente, siguiendo un guión de desestabilización; creando realidades opuestas a lo que realmente pasa en Venezuela”, expreso Sierra.”

    He also does not say what I SAW when I was in Caracas for the June protests: STUDENTS FROM PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES ARE GIVEN EXTRA CREDIT TO PROTEST AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.

    THIS POSTER is the eyewitness and earwitness source here–not some scruffy dropout in Miami.

    Clavos is such a strange bag of tricks: He doesn’t have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of–by his OWN admission cannot even get a credit card!–yet he defends private enterprise as if he were actually party to the pie being cut up.

    Go figure.

  • moonraven

    And then there is this description IN ENGLISH of the instigations of violence in Caracas by part of OPPOSITION students, an EXCERPT:

    “Opposition Students Clash with Police in Effort to Get to Venezuela’s Electoral Council
    November 2nd 2007, by Kiraz Janicke – Venezuelanalysis.com

    Violent clashes took place yesterday between opposition students and the police when students tried to break police lines near Venezuela’s National Electoral Council building. Students and members of opposition political parties had marched on the National Electoral Council (CNE) in Caracas to deliver a document calling for the referendum on President Hugo Chavez’s constitutional reforms, scheduled for December 2, to be postponed.

    As the march passed through the relatively poorer area of Parque Central, the protest was met with spontaneous cries from Chavez supporters of “Chavez is not going” and “They will not return” [a reference to the political leaders of the pre-Chavez era]. Several thousand pro-Chavez students and supporters from the poorer neighbourhoods in Caracas also gathered at the CNE in a counter protest in support of the reforms.

    Chanting “No to the reforms,” the opposition students carried banners and placards openly calling for violence, as well as pictures of various CNE rectors, describing them as “traitors to the country.”

    When the opposition protest arrived at approximately 2pm, the CNE directors received a delegation from the students, giving them drinks and cake as they handed over their document.

    However, on leaving the student delegation attempted to chain themselves to stair well in the entrance of the building before being removed by the National Guard.

    The protest then turned violent as the opposition students attempted to break through the police security cordon to get into the CNE, throwing rocks and bottles and setting fire to trash cans, trees and street poles. The police and National Guard then responded with teargas, water canon, and plastic shrapnel to disperse the crowd.

    The President of the CNE, Tibisay Lucena, rejected the acts of violence on the part of the protestors in a press conference saying, “The attempt to assault the CNE is unacceptable and constitutes a grave act that violates Venezuelan laws.”

    AND NOW WE HAVE CLAVOS CALLING ON THIS SITE FOR THE VIOLENT OVERTHROWING OF AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

    I think he should be flying to Pakistan, even as I type this, to suck up to one of his heroes–who just pulled off an “auto-coup”:

    Another EXCERPT, this from the BBC:

    “Published on Saturday, November 3, 2007 by The BBC
    Musharraf Imposes Emergency Rule; Suspends Pakistani Constitution

    Pakistan’s President Pervez Musharraf has declared emergency rule and suspended the country’s constitution.

    Troops have been deployed inside state-run TV and radio stations, while independent channels have gone off air.

    Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, who condemned the moves, has reportedly been sacked and is being confined to the Supreme Court with 10 other judges.

    It comes as the court was due to rule on the legality of Gen Musharraf’s re-election victory in October.

    The Court was to decide whether Gen Musharraf was eligible to run for election last month while remaining army chief.

    The BBC’s Barbara Plett reports from Islamabad that fears have been growing in the government that the Supreme Court ruling could go against Gen Musharraf.

    Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, who recently returned to the country after years of self-exile to lead her party in the elections, was in Dubai on a personal visit when news of the declaration broke.

    However, she immediately boarded a flight back to Pakistan in response, landing in Karachi.

    Her return from self-imposed exile last month came about with the co-operation of Gen Musharraf.

    Our correspondent says in the changed circumstances she will have to decide whether she is returning to lead the opposition against the president, or should wait on the sidelines in the hopes of securing an agreement with him.”

    SOUNDS OF CLAVOS SHREDDING HIS BOXERS AND CHEERING: PINOCHET RETURNS!

    And the Bush Gang is cheering that NUCLEAR POWER right along with clavos.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • troll

    I understand that the constitutional amendments were passed today

  • moonraven

    Nalle did not post an evidenece for his OPINION that folks are being disappeared in Venezuela.

    He doesn’t even know what continent Venezuela is located on, yet HE [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] knows more than anyone else in the world about the country???????????????????????

    HHHHHHAhahahahaaaahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahh!

    Made my day [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

  • moonraven

    Wrong, troll.

    As usual, the US media–which only culls from the media in Venezuela–which is 95% opposition owned DELIBERATELY got it wrong.

    The REALITY is the following: THE NATIONAL ASSUMBLY APPROVED 69 POINTS OF CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM–33 submitted by President Chavez and 36 by the assembly members themselves–TO BE PUT TO REFERENDUM.

    THE POINTS WILL BE VOTED ON IN TWO BLOCKS, WITH THE REFERENDUM SCHEDULED FOR DECEMBER 2.

  • troll

    thanks for the details

  • moonraven

    You might want to check venezuelanalysis.com regularly as there are some good pieces reprinted there.

    For example, today there is a good article that shows how most Venezuelans are doing MUCH better financially now than they were before Chavez came to power.

    It’s hearteening to see a REAL analysis–not just the Bush Gang barking [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] that Chavez has destroyed Venezuela’s economy. It does have the second highest growth on the planet, after all.

    If Chavez were not doing good for his people the Dogs of War and Firesale dictatorships, a la Milton Freidman–may he roast in hell–would not be barking at his heels.

  • Clavos

    “AND NOW WE HAVE CLAVOS CALLING ON THIS SITE FOR THE VIOLENT OVERTHROWING OF AN ELECTED GOVERNMENT.” Whaat?????

    Where and when?

  • moonraven

    Always!

    Now supporting the US-paid student opposition.

    Not that they need to be paid–their families are the wealthy, and they use the protest marches to try to get a birlfriend or a boyfriend.

    Beats being in classes.

    Especially since they get extra points for not being in class….

  • Clavos

    Total bullshit.

    I have never supported the VIOLENT overthrow of either the chango regime or any other.

  • moonraven

    Look, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor], you support the opposition student protestors who are advocating the violent overthrowing of the Chavez government.

    That means YOU support the violent overthrowing of a democratically elected president.

    Oh, so sorry–I forgot: Democracy is a dirty word for you traffickers in cubanos in Florida. Money is everything [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    Even this poster, an anti-materialist, anti-capitalist altermundista is in better shape financially than you–or probably anybody else on this site.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Moonraven–Not much money but allergic to debt.

  • Politcal Assassin

    A country sitting on one of the largest supplies of oil in the world should be doing well. The poverty line undoubtedly needs to be much higher. So to say that there have been improvements within Venezuala and that people in general are more wealthy is stating the obvious. This would have happend with or without Chavez.

  • moonraven

    Political Assassin: Wrong! We have another believer in Economic Magic with us. When Chavez took office petroleum was less than 7 bucks a barrel. CHAVEZ–and no one else–went to the OPEC countries and got them up on their feet again.

    Just a lttile clue about The Third World–especially Latin America–of course rich countries SHOULD have citizens in them who are doing well. But it is not the case.

    Mexico, where I live, is a good case in point. Folks WERE doing pretty well in the 60s and much of the 70s. Then The Chicago Boys took over via the IMF and the World Bank and technocrats took over the government. Since 1982 it’s been a steady downhill slide into oblivion. The past 6 years saw a TOTAL growth of less than 2%–far less than inflation, and for 2007 Mexico–a VERY RICH country–will have less than 3% growth–lower than that of Haiti!

    Natural resources that have been sold off to multinationals or which are still state-owned but whose profits go into the pockets of the wealthy do not–and have NEVER made–for folks in Latin America doing well.

    This part of the world has the most unequal distribution of wealth on the planet.

    Where do they get you guys, anyway?

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘I have never supported the VIOLENT overthrow of either the chango regime or any other.’

    But the people you support support and carried out a violent coup back in 2002, which the mass of venezuelans rejected.

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘Actually, the Luddites began destroying textile machinery and entire mills in early 19th century England because they feared they would lose their jobs as a result of the mechanization.’

    Actually, no, nor do you provide evidence for that thesis.

    Clavos: ‘
    And pejoratively is exactly how I used the term.’

    And as clearly i dont use it that way. Need i remind you that industrialisation has been disastrous both socially and environmentally!Or havent you heard of global warming, plastic pollution, the collapse of fish stocks in the ocea n(due to industrial fishing); Chernobyl; Bhopol;the list is endless.

    The industrialises were opportunists who sought to make money thru this practice, regardless of the social and environmental consequences….You show the same lack of regard….the irony is that industrialisation will be the cause of the destruction of civilistion…as well as the end of a habitable planet.

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘Exactly my point. If that horribly twisted Indian woman has her way, we’ll all be reduced to living a harsh, brutish life in which only the strongest and most ruthless will survive; that’s what life was like in the stone age.’

    Amazingly you seem unaware of thousands of years of harsh brutal warfare, slavery and other institutions that were either created with agrictuture and the rise of city states, or were enhanced immeasurably.

    Australian aboriginals till recently lived in a stone age society, many still choose to do so…their live were not nasty brutish and short.
    They have a very sophisticated ritual and religious and artistic culture….
    The white mens ‘civilisation’ has brought with it gerat hardship.

  • Clavos

    Well, brian, you and your fellow Luddites are welcome to go back to a stone age lifestyle if you like; I’m sure you can find some corner of the world where you can set up and do so.

    Just don’t be surprised if the billions of us who like running water and electricity don’t follow.

    Have fun!

    Let us know how that works out for you…

  • brian

    ‘Luddites, both then and now, are ignorant, backward folk who lack any kind of foresight or any understanding of how the world works.’

    Langston Hughes, american poet said he was happy to be called Luddite, as their rebellion was wise.You on the other hand are happy to see the world drown in pollution caused by industrialisation.Thats not very wise.

  • brian

    ‘Well, brian, you and your fellow Luddites are welcome to go back to a stone age lifestyle if you like; I’m sure you can find some corner of the world where you can set up and do so.’

    To quote einstein: ‘”I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.”

    AS ive already said, your defence of industrialisation will ensure your descendents if any will be scatching a living in a ravaged landscape, without the culture and wisdom of stone age peoples.

  • brian

    ‘Just don’t be surprised if the billions of us who like running water and electricity don’t follow.’

    You seem to be unaware (no surprise) but the world is running out of running water…thanks to industry, big business, mass populations made possible by urbanisation etc

    What will u drink when there is no more potable water?

  • Clavos

    I have a reverse osmosis watermaker which makes water with the purity of distilled water out of salt water.

    As long as I have electricity (and I have a generator for that), I won’t run out of water, my friend.

    So, I’m all set. But long before the world runs out of water the problems will be corrected. They always are.

    Read Paul Ehrlich’s book The Population Bomb.

    You’ll see what I mean.

  • Potrzebie!

    Why is it any county with 20% and above of its population living below the poverty line tends to get more enamoured with communism via socialism? You think the last person a starving people in poverty at that point would believe is a pillow talking dictator.

  • troll

    Clavos – the luddites were primarily highly skilled textile workers whose riots were caused more by the price of wheat and potatoes in 1811 than any underlying regressive philosophy

    it seems a little unreasonable to require folks who are starving to take the long view

  • Franco

    #409 — troll

    Franco – there are lots of folks for whom scarcity is nothing new and for whom the plight of the Venezuelan middle class doesn’t work as a tear jerker

    as a supporter of the system can you explain why after a century of capitalist rule in the Americas there is such a large group of impoverished people in need of some basic redistribution – ?

    In address your leading statement first

    Yes there are lots of poor folks who feel this way. But it is not a cut and dried correct assessment of all the poor. It is also just as true to say there are also lots of folks of scarcity whom do not see the middle class as a negative force and enemy against them that should be destroyed. But rather see it as an engagable class affording them positive upward forces of opportunity, and whom seek to keep busy and join it and are doing so.

    The connotation upon the word “exploit” can be looked at negatively or positively. A broader look at its positive synonyms would also define it as: accomplishment, venture, achievement, employ.

    In round numbers and broad strokes, there have historically existed three classes. Lower (poor), Middle, Upper (rich ruling elite). Within each class there are negative and positive forces at work. The negative aspects of each class always exploits downward to the next lower class by the negative force’s of the preceding class.

    But I contend that the positive aspect between classes can be exploited upward to the next class. And what history has attested to, and still does, is the dearth or absents of a middle class, is the worst enemy of the poor, not the other way around. Because its absents leaves nothing but the lower class (poor) and upper class (ruling elite), that the poor could never on there own engage the upper class like the middle class can and does.

    My defense of the “system” as you say, is focused on the positive aspects of the classes and the bastion that the middle class forms between the to opposing classes. But before we go any further, I want to point out right now what I failed to do earlier.

    The middle class in SA only amounts to the lowest class in NA, and no one is complaining about that down here. And it must be understood that it takes those living in SA (5-10) times longer (depending on which county is SA) to reach the lowest class in NA. And I feel that it is important in keeping this in mind when addressing the people of SA directly or indirectly. As for why it is 5-10 times harder, that has to do with the answer to your question, which will be addressed towards the end of this post.

    The middle class, those whom have struggled to make it here in SA, are not all enemies of the poor, and many among the poor want to exploit positively upwards into it and gain assess to it.

    On the other hand, to put it in your context, the ones who (from lack of education and or captive negative mindsets) can not sustain the positives to exploit upwards for engaging the middle class. Some do not want to go be subjected to (5-10) times the efforts of those who have struggled up, and instead remain uneducated, bitter, angry, or just want to be taken care of and thus remain restless. Those imprisoned with that captive mindset need to be lead out with encouragement and consistent positive reinforcement, as it is hard for them to actualizes such a system, that we take for granted everyday, while they have spent centuries without. Not everyone from this poor captive mindset will go and give chase upwards to engaging and exploit the middle class, because as the expression goes, you can lead a hose to water but you can make him drink. And in my earlier posts from a year ago, I gave my personal experiences to this fact in selecting my employees from the poor.

    Those who hold this captive negative mindset continue to promote it to the next generation. One of my first employees son was awarded a secondary school scholarship to attend a special school for students with advanced learning aptitude. His son had ranked first in the testing in the region we live. The school officered free admittance with some extra expenses his father would have to pay in transportation. I asked the father if there was something that I could do to future help him if it were a matter of money when he turn down the scholarship for his son. He said no, and told me that he had not attended such schooling and did not see the need for his son to go. I did what I could, the church he attend did what they could to see if we could effect change of mind of the father. It was obvious the father, a poor uneducated man, had only a faults sense of pride to cover his own self image that he could not let down. And he was in reality threatened with his son advancing. The father suffered from one of the failing from what I call the captive mindset of poverty and holding his son down as a result.

    Now a leader of a county who would choose to exploit the negative mindsets the poor againt the negive mindsets of the middle class, would not be the friend of the poor. And any leader, who would intentionally pit the two most negative aspects of each class against the other is negative leadership. Those leaders are either ignorant, and the blind leading the blind, or they are intelligent with a keen sense and charismatic charm at exploiting the poor at the expense of the middle class for their own power.

    I contend that Hugo Chavez is just that. He has intentionally and with reckless abandonment pitted the negative aspects of each class against the other. Chavez could have chooses to engage the positive aseptic of the middle class and provided incentive and assistance to the poor for positive upward exploitation through education, grants, working groups, for helping the poor see it positively and help them reach into it, but he did not.

    He could have chosen to work at minimizing the negatives and accentuate the positives of something that has historically proven to posses the dynamic creative power and energy of the modern world, but he did not. Instead he chose to completely destroy all respect for its value and protection if affords them. Why?

    A healthy middle class produces forces and energies and opportunity all around it, enabling it to grow and expanded itself. If you want something done, give it to a busy man. That holds true for the middle class. This energy of opportunity is a magnet, a gateway for the poor to engage it and mover into and grow with it. The proof lays in the fact that it can only expand by those from classes below it. Also Its benefits are not only monitory and commercial. The middle class stands as a bastion between the upper and lower classes, and the bigger and healthier the middle class is, the more the ruling upper class has to respect and address its needs. It is a force in and of itself greater in its whole then the ruling elite for what it offers the state, its people, and the world, and it must be catered to by the elite. a class ruling elite can in fact be proud of.

    I assert these two classes need the positive and delicate hands of a responsible leadership dedicated to accentuating and instilling the positives. Not the raging hoofs and horns of a bull in a china closet snorting its negatives using charm and charisma as a cover. Which I contend Hugo Chavez is.

    Hugo Chavez is a military man who himself grow up poor. He understands the poor and he by his very action against the middle class has evidenced (1) either his lack of understanding of its value to the poor, or (2) his fear of it. But it is hard to make a case for Chavez being the former. So my bet is on the latter. That is way I hold to the same position that Hugo Chavez is exploiting the poor in the same manner as Jose Matin (Cuba’s greatest hero) puts it,

    “Socialist ideology, like so many others, has two main dangers. One stems from confused and incomplete readings of foreign texts, and the other from the arrogance and hidden rage of those who, in order to climb up in the world, pretend to be frantic defenders of the helpless so as to have shoulders on which to stand”.

    It is the duty of man to raise up man. One is guilty of all abjection that one does not help to relieve. Only those who spread treachery, fire, and death out of hatred for the prosperity of others are undeserving of pity. Jose Martin (1853-1895)

    The middle classes were the driving forces in the economic development of Western Europe and United States. This group is neither wealthy nor poor, at neither the top nor the bottom of the social power structure, but it forms the economic and political bedrock of any modern state. And the larger it gets the more power is has to protect itself.

    One reason for the failure of many democracies is that societies tend to polarize the rich and the poor. The results is that either the rich exploits the poor through high society (government by a small group of people), or the poor overthrows the rich and redistributes income and property, plunging nation-states into social and political chaos and disorder. All coup-makers have justified their interventions by claiming to be liberators, redeemers, and defenders of the poor, only to turn around and exploit the same people they professed to liberate, redeem, and defend.

    A positive expanding middle call closes the poverty gap to deny them of these flimsy excuses. A middle class development strategy is an attempt to lift the poor into the middle class, thereby creating a buffer between the very rich and the very poor.

    SA people are hardy people, and face and carry more hardships then NA people and SA people complain less about hardships then NA people. They do not want you to feel sorry for them, they have their pride. In this light I think our sometimes quick slight of hand, is not only unfair, it shows the SA people how little they are understand in NA, which thus exposes our lack in interest as a reality. SA and NA are geographical connected and here to stay and the world is getting smaller by the day. We would be wise to not only strive to understand each other better from a distance, but to engauge each other personally. Americans still stand 10 feet tall down here in much of SA. What I say to people down here is resected and looked up to. They see our words as spoken for turth, because they are in aw of what we have done. The are more patriotic about the US then we are. We would be wise to start seeing ourseleves again like they still do.

    So the tear jerking you thought I was soliciting for the middle class, was really two fold. Care and concern for the poor for a middle class they are loosing that they desperately need to maintain and grow, and care and concern for those who exerted 5-10 times more efforts then in is required in NA to be part of the long over due and long time coming budding middle class is SA.

    The actions of Hugo Chavez have created chaos and lawlessness in Venezuela to such anc extent that peole as are always in a state of fear, and the government is not doing anything about it. . Many former Chavez supporters are leaving Venezuela precisely because of crime. Caracas is considered one of the most violent cities in Latin America. In surveys, Venezuelans say crime is a top concern. That is way the IACHR-OAS wants to come in and investigate, but Chavez will not allow them in.

    In addressing your question:

    To start with, Corruption is the corrects answer as Clavos has already stated. But let’s open that up a bit because all government have corruption in them including the NA.

    First of all, there is a reason these countries speak Spanish. After that plunder from 1500s to the 1800s, SA states started wining their independence. It is interesting to note that the US had just been born in NA at around the same time that 300 years of Spanish colonialism of SA was dying out. But did it?

    The model and mindset in which these SA newly independent states were left to modify was surly a menacing task in having to contest a 300 year mindset of “haves” against the “have-nots” with no middle class ever standing as bastion between the two. All the power still remained in the hands of the new elite, it had only switched from outside control by Spain, to inside independent national control by the new state.. And even with the best of intentions, we know that absolute power corrupts absolute.

    And the US was developing fast. This was a struggle of major effort which without the guiding lights of the Bill of Rights, and the US Constitution we would have surly failed in eventually founding and forging the makings of a middle class to the likes and measure the world had never seen before.

    That talent and education of the mixture of people forming the US melting pot gave the US the upper hand in all of this, unlike the one mindset the new leaders were faced in altering in old world mindset SA. The tasks was too daunting for them, and they were not united under one focus and one constitution like the US. So the term newly independent states was the hard core of it, they were independent.

    US’s sudden growth and explosive expansion out paced not only SA but the world at large. This also gave rise to an upper hand in international commerce with SA. For who among us would not want to buy 10 artichokes for a dollar (the asking price which satisfied the SA seller) and keep 5 for himself and family, and sell the other 5 at 25 cents each in the market place back home and making a 25% profit to pay travel expenses.

    The more demand for artichokes to the SA seller allows the seller to sell to the highest bidder as competition sets in. This cuts into the traders’ profits in favor or the seller. Is this a bad thing? Now arguing about unjust tariffs and unfair protections against the SA sellers is another issue of good discussion/debate, but that is not the fish we are frying here now. But it should be discussed/debated in another thread.

    My Personal involvement in positive upward exploitation of the upper class

    I am not trying to win a theoretical argument. There is nothing theoretical to argue we me about. I am living what I am saying. My money, my energy, my focus is on positve exploiting upwards into the high class ruling elite from my middle class position and it is not empty theory, and I am protecting nature in the processes.

    To save you asking me any questions about what I do, I will give you a quick overview.

    I recycle forest products. I take wood out of old 100-200 year old buildings in Chile and market them upwards to the upper classes in NA.

    These antique recycled flooring and timbers, are cleaned, remilled, cut and package and talled and loaded into containers we send to the US where it is marketed to the ultar rich who want something unique and classical to show off to there fieinds tthat cost them big time, and thy can claim they are “helping the envierment”. The flooring I provide sells for more money then the best newly manufactured solid wood flooring being produced and sold in the US today. There, that capitalism at its finest.

    If pays me good, the workers good and we all love exploiting the upper class in NA, but you at least have to be middle class to do it.

    The issue of SA and NA in this discussion thread has produced the use of the ever-ugly race card. For those who choose to sit at that table and deal that card, I do not play at that table. I do not care who is white, red, black, brown, yellow, green, blue, or the invisible aliens that some think live among us. We ALL have the same common needs for ourselves and our families, and the nature we come from and live in. What I address are those common needs from a positive aspect for a healthy middle class generated by free enterprise. So if racism is you’re game for blame against trying to decrepit my assertions, go play it somewhere else, and consider yourself warned. It is a loosing hand at my table. And anyone wishing to play it against me, or anyone else should take a close look at his or her own racial prejudices. For only those who play that card have them.

    In closing I would like to say, as I said in my previous post concerning the “trick” that Christopher Rose refers to that I call the human heart. I have said enough on it in my own words. So I lever you with anothers take on this same matter..

    Peoples are made of hate and of love, and more of hate than love. But love, like the sun that it is, sets afire and melts everything. what greed and privilege to build up over whole centuries the indignation of a pious spirit, with its natural following of oppressed souls, will cast down with a single shove. Jose Martin (1853-1895)

  • troll

    Franco – the Sufi says that there are lots of people but only a few human beings…I’ve never gone for that notion preferring the idea that if you scratch the surface of any person you’ll find that human

    I’m not surprised that you are a humane capitalist

    yet after reading your comment (that clearly was the result of a fair amount of effort which I thank you for) I am left no closer to an answer to my initial question

    so let me suggest to you that SA’s poor exist in their numbers not because of the hate in corrupt men’s souls but because of a systems problem inherent in capitalist ‘exploitation from above’ itself that stems from a misguided axiom of self-interest

    and a note on classes and class struggle – there are workers and there are owners…and then there are workers who are also owners/owners who are also workers

    how about this: when there is no place left in the world for the shit to flow down to and only worker/owners are left then production will be classless and the revolution will be complete

  • REMF

    troll #540;

    Dittos!!

  • troll

    creepy I tell ya

  • Clavos

    Why “creepy” specifically, troll?

    Just askin’

  • troll

    the dittohead army reminds me of those flesh eating zomboids in those movies that are all the rage

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I’ve been ignoring this thread because of the pointless pontificating of the marxist shills, but I have to say that Franco’s recent contribution was truly fascinating.

    It reminds me how unwise it is to try to look at the world through the rigid and artificial systems so many want to apply, like the silly idea of everything being part of a struggle between classes, or the reduction of a complex system like capitalism to nothing more than a ruling class exploiting workers, when it’s really so much more varied and diverse in practice.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Franco’s recurring point about upward mobility inherent in the capitalist system is not only true, but probably the most important aspect of capitalism as a social system, setting it apart from most of the utopian theories by the fact that it actually happens.

    Contemporary Mexico, with the fastest growing middle class in the Americas, is an excellent (but still imperfect) example of that.

    Were we to eliminate (or at least sharply reduce) corruption and the power of the oligarchs, Mexico, with our oil riches and abundant other natural resources, democratic constitution and institutions, and hard-working, industrious people, would take its place among the first world countries in fairly short order.

  • troll

    why does it not surprise me that you don’t want to investigate the essential relationship in the system – ?

    fine – what fetish would you like to discuss – ?

  • troll

    ps – tip of the hat to Les for introducing ‘fetish’ into the conversation with a decent definition over on the islamofacism thread

  • Franco

    #540 — troll

    so let me suggest to you that SA’s poor exist in their numbers not because of the hate in corrupt men’s souls but because of a systems problem inherent in capitalist ‘exploitation from above’ itself that stems from a misguided axiom of self-interest

    Name one or more exploitations from above that you find most misguided as inherent in capitalists.

    how about this: when there is no place left in the world for the shit to flow down to and only worker/owners are left then production will be classless and the revolution will be complete

    If the society is classless is everyone driving the same kind model car, same house, clothing, would there only be one brand of toothpaste. Would steaks cost the same as hamburger. Would a Rembrandt be worth the same as a local artist painting at the beach. Would beach front property sell for the same as desert lots. Would first class sell for coach. Would picking up the garbage pay the same as a doctor or lawyers. Would jelly donuts sell for the same as plane. Would all the women is wet T-shirt contest be winners. Would a bottle of 20 year old scotch sell for that same as a 5 year old bottle.

  • troll

    *Name one or more exploitations from above that you find most misguided as inherent in capitalists.*

    wealth without work – the expropriation of surplus value from another’s labor

    the answers to your production/pricing questions would be decided on the free market where I’m sure different types of work would continue to demand different payment

  • Clavos

    “wealth without work – the expropriation of surplus value from another’s labor”

    That could also be considered an exploitation from below, as some people collect entitlement payments without working.

    “the answers to your production/pricing questions would be decided on the free market”

    In other words, capitalism?

  • troll

    can a market be free only when it is driven by individuals maximizing their profit – ?

  • troll

    *That could also be considered an exploitation from below, as some people collect entitlement payments without working.*

    …but it’s the government doing the expropriating – not the lumpenprols who are supported at a subsistence level so that they can fulfill their function

  • Frank Penberthy

    #550 — — troll

    wealth without work – the expropriation of surplus value from another’s labor

    I agree, but would you rather work for an individual group or for the state. Eather way you are working for some wealth above. If your working for a privete firm thcy have control of that surplus in the companies. If your working for that state it’s in the states hand, you can be you will not have any access to it.

    And troll, most companies, the majority, the boss works is ass off. The big time corps, like Home Depot who’s CEO left with 50 millioin is a joke. That is the kind of thing that gives corportations a bad name. But it is the excetpion not the rule. Sucessfull middle class companies make up the majority of the corporate workforce, and pay most of the taxes.

    Give me another one.

  • troll

    *would you rather work for an individual group or for the state.*

    neither

    *And troll, most companies, the majority, the boss works is ass off.*

    and is due his fair share of the surplus value generated by the operation

  • Clavos

    troll,

    You did leave out one other (and perhaps the most important) reason for compensating capital: risk.

    Though not rich, I am most definitely a capitalist; 100% of my life’s savings (well, more than 90%, anyway) is invested in equities in corporations.

    The compensation I receive (if any) is for the risk I’m taking that I won’t lose my capital in the process. That risk is real enough that I pay an expert 2% per annum to invest it for me and safeguard my capital.

    So far (5 yrs.), so good.

  • Franco

    #552 — troll

    can a market be free only when it is driven by individuals maximizing their profit – ?

    troll. Before you and look at it that way, you have to take into account that making a profit is not a constant or sure thing like breathing air. Just getting the company off the ground for the first 2 years put you at a 30% rate of failure. And if you do make it, you could have your product hit by a surplus in the market at anytime and your have to work harder to make less while the surpluses work into the system and then your back on track, sort of.

    Then say you modify the product so the design is better, cost less to make, and improve quality, and spend so some bucks on marketing and sales making the announcement. It pays off, the product is well liked, people are happy with it, and with in a year you have made enough money to pay off the losses of sales slump your were in a year ago and the additional costs for product redevelopment and paydown the line at the bank.

    The nest year you’re making some bucks. But because Uncle Sam can get taxes out of losses the past year, now that you have make some profits, he wants 50% of your action. So you pay those and then your have some money in the bank and and you start thinking, hell, I haven’t had a vacation in 5 years. Then you remember your kid wants to start collage in the next 4 years. So you get on the phone and make another sales call.

    This is not far off what most companies go through all the time. So all I got to say is if you are not driven to maximizing profits you are going to go out of business.

  • troll

    Clavos – I’m happy that you’ve been able to make the present system work for you…there will always be a need for usurers I guess even in my worker/owner paradise

  • Clavos

    troll,

    How am I a “usurer?”

    Usury is defined as “1: archaic : interest 2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates 3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money” Source: Merriam-Webster Online.

    I’m not lending my money, I’m purchasing a portion of the corporation, and it is using my money to conduct its business, and hopefully, make a profit, which is then divided among all the owners, including me. I am paid for that because, for a variety of reasons, the company may not make a profit, and in the extreme, may even go out of business, leaving me with nothing for my investment. That’s the risk I spoke of.

    I don’t invest in bonds, which ARE loans, only common (mostly) stock.

    I am not a “usurer” by any commonly accepted definition of the term.

  • http://www.libertyrepublican.com Dave Nalle

    I bring up again, for the record, the fact that the average CEO earns only $96K a year. That means he’s likely working pretty damned hard for his share of the profits. The super-wealthy CEOs are a tiny proportion when you consider that the overwhelming majority of companies in the US are valued at under $2 million.

    And why does troll keep talking about “mazimizing profit” as if that were the definition of capitalism. It isn’t. That’s a biased, negative and very limited description of something which CAN be characteristic of capitalism under certain circumstances, but it certainly does not define capitalism. By definition capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned, rather than controlled by the state. Every business in the US could be a worker-owned collective and it would STILL be a capitalist system.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “Every business in the US could be a worker-owned collective and it would STILL be a capitalist system.”

    Some already are, through ESOPs.

    Most of the remainder, being publicly held stock corporations are also owned by workers, just not necessarily their own workers.

    A huge amount of corporate stock is in workers’ 401K and other retirement plans.

  • troll

    Clavos – you assume that your risk entitle you to ownership and a share of the profit…why – ? a usurer is all that’s needed

    Dave – as Franco says: if you’re a capitalist and not maximizing profits then you will go out of business…private ownership is not the sole defining characteristic of capitalism – the capitalist is defined by his actions

    Franco – think positive dude…the tyranny of the real is not the necessary

    happily things change and someday we might even come up with a system that doesn’t require winners and losers – rich and poor…at which point we might be able to see to the needs of the least among us

  • Clavos

    No, troll. My purchase of part of the corporation entitles me to ownership, just as it would if I were to, like Warren Buffett, purchase the entire corporation (as he often does).

    The risk entitles me to a return on my investment, yes. Again, just as it would if I owned the entire corporation.

    Naturally, the size of my ROI is commensurate with the size of my ownership stake.

    A usurer probably could take my place, sure, but the usurer would a) demand a guaranteed ROI, which I can’t do, and b) the ROI demanded by the usurer would almost certainly be higher than I receive.

    Therefore, using a usurer (in lieu of selling stock) to raise capital doesn’t make good business sense for the corporation.

  • troll

    we’ll simply will have to disagree about what your risk and control of capital entitle you to

  • Clavos

    OK.

    But, you have given me a good idea. I should move to a country where usury isn’t illegal, hire a couple of thugs as enforcers, and start a new investment program. No risk, and the ROI would be MUCH better.

    Wonder where I can find out where usury is legal?

  • brian

    ‘Why is it any county with 20% and above of its population living below the poverty line tends to get more enamoured with communism via socialism? You think the last person a starving people in poverty at that point would believe is a pillow talking dictator.’

    first of all, you answered your own question….socialism is seen as an answer to the uncaring dictators of capitalism, which is a root cause of poverty.
    2ndly many dictators were capitalists: suharto, Pinochet, marcos….

  • brian

    ‘It reminds me how unwise it is to try to look at the world through the rigid and artificial systems so many want to apply, like the silly idea of everything being part of a struggle between classes, or the reduction of a complex system like capitalism to nothing more than a ruling class exploiting workers, when it’s really so much more varied and diverse in practice.’

    Did dave really say this? One kind of capitalism much in evidence these days is the globalising knid, whereby capital goes to places where it can maximise profits…it does so by minimising costs mostly workers wagse….but an added effect is to maximise miles and so increase pollution in getting goods from maker to consumer.
    The effect is to impoverish workers in places the jobs are moved from….this wouldnt happen in socialist ie worker run enterprises.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘By definition capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned, rather than controlled by the state. Every business in the US could be a worker-owned collective and it would STILL be a capitalist system.’

    Daves definition fails to mention that his capitalism is not run with the workers in mind…just the owners. If the workers ARE the owners, there less tendency for it to offshore…jobs stay at home as do profits. So BIG difference.

  • brian

    Dave: ‘but by maintaining a closed mind you contribute to my perceptions and future observations in a purely negative way.’

    This is ironic coming from a man whose mind is closed to the bolivarian revolution as to any kind of social justice movement.

  • brian

    ‘That could also be considered an exploitation from below, as some people collect entitlement payments without working.’

    except that they arent workers, or are workers who find that the doll provides a better living than the minimum wage….in either way, the solution is worker owned and managed factories.

  • Clavos

    “or are workers who find that the doll (sic) provides a better living than the minimum wage….”

    In a word, exploiters (of the workers).

  • brian

    ‘In a word, exploiters (of the workers).’

    no, just seeking means to live,which they are deprived of under capitalism

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    the capitalist is defined by his actions

    Or redefined by the actions which you choose to project onto him with little but your prejudices to go on.

    Daves definition fails to mention that his capitalism is not run with the workers in mind…just the owners. If the workers ARE the owners, there less tendency for it to offshore…jobs stay at home as do profits. So BIG difference.

    So many misconceptions and so little time.

    First off, most corporations in the US encourage workers to invest in stock in those corporations under very beneficial terms, making them at least in part owners in the company, and certainly letting them share in the profits.

    Second, when jobs are sent ‘offshore’ the net result is an increase in management positions in the home company with the workers whose jobs were exported often moved into higher paying supervisory jobs. On the whole, when a job is sent overseas it creates at least two new, higher paying jobs at home.

    You might want to try looking at modern, capitalist businesses as they ARE rather than as the unrealistic boogeymen you’ve been told they are.

    Dave

  • troll

    Clavos – it’s not clear to me how your plan differs all that much from what you’re doing now – your present ‘exorbitant interest’ is ownership and your thugs are the police who are sworn to protect your property and serve you – with the full power of property laws behind them

    as you can see when we get right down to it our views are almost violently in opposition – so we might want to step back from useless confrontation

    I’d be far more interested to hear about how it is that corruption trumps the positive forces of capitalism in SA as you proposed earlier

  • Clavos

    OK, troll.

    Using your somewhat bizarre definitions I suppose I am a “usurer.” Now I need to find out how I can get the police to enforce my interest rates with the boards of directors (and other owners) of the businesses in which I’m a part owner. Instead of the paltry rates I’ve been getting, as a good usurer, I insist on rates of 100% — weekly.

    And will the police kneecap those directors when they refuse to comply?

    If I read you correctly, what you’re saying is that no one should have income that is not earned with sweat, which is fine as far as it goes, but then where is the incentive for a worker to invest their savings in a business, which if properly run, will provide other workers employment among other things?

    Under what you’re proposing, I might as well stick my savings under my mattress.

  • Franco

    #568 — November 5, 2007 @ 00:47AM — brian

    socialism is seen as an answer to the uncaring dictators of capitalism, which is a root cause of poverty.

    I think for the people of and in the US, they stand in absolute contrast to that statement. And that in fact capitalism (free enterprise) has been the very system that has been these peoples engine in creating what they enjoy as the world’s largest middle class, and which consists of neither rich nor poor.

    I admire you for wanting to be part of helping in finding a way to better address the needs of the poor and less fortunate. I mean that whole heatedly.

    But lets be honest on both accounts. There is no guarantee you can offer that those with the power to enforce socialism on a populous would not be just as guilty of skimming off the labors of the workers of the state in the same way you accuse capitalists of doing. History, our great teacher, hss comfirmed that when ever great power in consentrated in the hand of the few, corruption always augments over time into abuse of power. If you disagree that socialism enforcers would be the first in history to be different, then state your case.

    Allow me to offer this. Could it be that your objections to capitalists in the US has to with it being too successful, producing too much in proportion to the world? And has cast such a huge shadow of contrast against much of the undeveloped world that it could make people see it as evil or selfish for people in the US to have so much while so many in the undeveloped world have so little. Because the sheer utter contrast between the two, I will agree with you, shouts disproportional disparity. Could this not be part of your objections?

  • Franco

    #572 — November 5, 2007 @ 01:52AM — brian

    they are deprived of under capitalism

    Help me understand this. Exactly “WHO” are deprived under capitalism, and “WHAT” are they deprived of?

  • Lapdog

    Nalle’s constant bleating about the Chavez government doesn’t make a lick of sense.

    Venezuelans who aren’t happy with Chavez can get off their butts and try to find a better life somewhere else, and according to Clavos dozens are moving to his neck of the woods on a daily basis.

    Problem solved.

  • REMF

    “Using your somewhat bizarre definitions I suppose I am a “usurer.””

    But are you a dittohead…?

  • Franco

    Clavos

    I see your “saving” that you invested as the “net reserve” of what you were able to hold onto from your blood, sweat, and tears in responsibly pulling you’re fair share in meeting your expense of basic living needs.

    Putting those savings to work were capital is needed to conduct the means of creating more opportunity for workers to do the same is not only smart, but even socialistic in nature. It affronts those entering the work force to accomplish the same thing you did and so it goes.

    One other positive aspect of this, and particularly in your case, is you have an extra burden to carry in providing and protecting your wife and her illness. This requires that she be provided more care. If you can be with her more personally, this would be better then hiring someone to fill those needs which I am sure she would prefer, maybe not more then the black cat mind you, but better then hired out to a stranger in such a personal matters.

    Having your money work for you as described above, allows you to do more of this for her personally. This too is a socialistic objective that you are accomplishing through the freedom of capitalism.

    But, in capitalism, to enjoy these positives, you have to be willing to “risk” your savings to have them. .

    I too am having a hard time understanding trolls argument. Can it be that he fails to give proper attention to is the fact that you are not guaranteed you will not loose everything you saved from blood sweet and tears that you invested in the company which afford you more time with your wife. Or dose he see it and feels humans should not be forced to be put in that risk position?

  • Clavos

    I don’t know, Franco, but there are two points here I feel compelled to make:

    1. Thank you for your kind words regarding my caring for my wife. You are correct in your assumptions about her (and my) preferences in regard to my caring for her as much as I’m able to, consistent with earning enough money to cover our bills. As a disabled person, she does receive SSDI, and she is entitled to home care. She has a nurse who visits periodically, but we both prefer to carry the bulk of her care within the family, as it were.

    2. I enjoy debating with troll. He’s always polite and a worthy debate opponent; I don’t always see things his way, but he’s swayed my own opinions more than once on the past.

    I agree with troll that we all have responsibilities to those who share the world with us and who are for whatever reason, in need of our help. I just feel that the system which produces the greatest amount of wealth is more likely to make that possible.

    I also agree with troll to the extent that, human nature being what it is, such “sharing” often must be institutionally facilitated, either by “incentivizing” (as with tax deductions, e.g.), or “coercing” (as with government mandated programs). But just as we must encourage the sharing, so too, we must guard against the coercion becoming so onerous that it intrudes on people’s rights.

    And, unlike troll, I have no problem with some people being wealthier than others: some are smarter, some are harder working, and yes, some are luckier. The possibility of accumulating wealth on a personal level is, IMO, one of the factors that has enabled the USA to become as wealthy as a nation as it is.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    BACK to the topic: Hundreds of thousands of Chavez supporters marched through Caracas to kick off the YES vote for December 2nds referenda.

    That’s what the newspapers HERE in Mexico say–and they include photos–whereas Bloomberg writes “tens of thousands” since it is a shill for the Bush Gang.

    As usual, Chavez will have all the support needed.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Now, if you want to LEARN something about free market economics [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]: Read The Shock Doctrine, by Naomi Klein!

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Franco

    #581 — November 5, 2007 @ 12:08PM — Clavos

    I too see the troll as polite and a worthy debate opponent. Many times though I have a hard time understanding where he is coming from, as his statements come out like some kind of a code sometimes. Not to be confessed with dittoheads, but more to do with not opening up more on concepts in presenting his view. Could just be me.

    Speaking of dittoheads, I concur with everything you said you agreed with troll about, and in what you disagreed with him on. And I remain optimistic that we can all gain more from the troll in the future………………are you listing troll.

    People of money that have so much more of it then I, do not upset me. Those people have always been in the world and will always be here. I would like to see more of them with more compassion, heart and understanding of the needy, but that is their business. I need to force on what I do have, and be thankful for that, and see how it can best use that for what I see as most important in life. And going back to an old song from the 60’. “No matter if you’re born to play the king or pawn, the line is thinly drawn between joy and sorrow”. And in a lot of things in life, like materialism, less can be more.

  • moonraven

    Looks like Nalle and Co. are trying to co-opt you, troll.

    They are SOOOOOOOOOO threatened by any opposition….

  • http://http//www.smellymonkeys.com Pawn-unism

    Venezeula is pretty high on the corruption index because of the labor issues, not inherent problems of capitalism.

    Capitalism may deprive, but communism dehumanizes.

  • moonraven

    It’s pretty high on the corruption list because:

    a) that list is based on PERCEIVED lack of transparency, and the PERCEPTIONS are those of the opposition, in the majority, and

    b) because corruption is a tradition here in Latin America, where a famous Mexican pol said: Un politico pobre es un pobre politico.

  • Clavos

    Hhmmm. You could be right, mr, especially when the opposition is actually intelligent and competent.

    Notice that no one’s trying to co-opt YOU, mr.

  • moonraven

    You CAN’t co-opt me. This bird is incorruptible.

    The opposition is consulted regarding transparency because of the bias against consulting anyone but upper middle class folks who own businesses in Venezuela.

    When was the last time anyone–pollster or mainstream media shill–had the balls to show up in the barrios and ask for perceptions?
    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Franco

    As stated earlier in this thread for anyone interested in an impartial source, thus not apprehensive to explore it.

    The IACHR-OAS has the balls and wants to do just that, but Chavez won’t let them in the country.

    It’s all in their 2006 Annual Report on Venezuela

    The report is not accusing the Chavez government of anything. It only states its serious concern from information it has gathered. Some of those concerns have to de with high crime, excessive force and threats and killings by government forces that are not being brought to justice, and the concerns they have for the Justice system itself after it made personal pledges of allegiance to Chavez. Add all of this to the constitutional changes he wants make, and theses concerns become even more paramount.

    How doses Chavez feel about the impartiality of the IACHR-OAS, well he asked them in the country after the 2002 coup to investigate and the IACHR-OSA found in his favor. What’s Chavez reason for not letting them in now?

    Granted, the concerns are alarming, and if true, would cast Chavez in a very bad light. However if there were nothing to hide, surly with the IACHR-OAS success at invetaging the 2002 coup, he would want them in this case to clear up these serious concerns. Right?

  • Franco

    Corrected link – IACHR-OAS 2006 Annual Report on Venezuela

  • moonraven

    Folks who “express serious concern” without having any information–only propaganda–are agitators, and they are not needed anywhere–much less in Venezuela where there are plenty of homegrown agitators as well as professional agitators on the payroll of the US.

    I would like to know how franco can consider himself material for an “impartial forum” when all he has done–despite NEVER HAVING SET ONE FOOT IN VENEZUELA–is cry wolf that Chavez is a dictator.

    I, on the other hand, have made a number of visits to Venezuela and therefore am material of an IMPARTIAL FORUM–which may be why I am PAID to give my analysis in the US, Latin America and the Middle East.

    When folks like Nalle/FRANCO/CLAVOS start being paid for their expertise–I am sure they will let us know.

    Until then, they take their propaganda from Fox News or CNN–or directly from such bastions of journalistic ethics as The Miami Herald.

    Impartial forum, do not make me laugh!

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘I agree with troll that we all have responsibilities to those who share the world with us and who are for whatever reason, in need of our help. I just feel that the system which produces the greatest amount of wealth is more likely to make that possible. ‘

    well, it hasnt dont it, not in the US…as witness the poverty rampant there…this is the same US that has allowed its industries to migrate in search of cheaper labor and lower standards…eg China…which failed to help black victims of Katrina.etc etc
    And it certainly hant worked in latin america, hence the shift leftward.

    Youre ‘feelings’s are more likely a result of your indoctrination in a land where any kind of social concern is labelled ‘communism’.

  • brian

    A bit off topic: but for those not aware, the TV show Supernatural, which i saw last night on Australian TV, had a bit on Dick Cheney:
    Casey: “Dick Cheney.”

    Dean: “He one of yours?”

    Casey: “Not yet. Let’s just say he’s got a parking spot reserved for him downstairs.”‘
    NOTE: Casey is a female demon…
    Amazing this got past the censors…

  • Clavos

    “well, it hasnt dont it, not in the US…as witness the poverty rampant there…”

    That’s your purely subjective (and incorrect) opinion. The US is the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind, our poverty class is proportionately to our total population than all third world and most first world countries; poverty is hardly “rampant” here.

    The poorest among us are far richer than the poor of almost anywhere else in the world.

    “this is the same US that has allowed its industries to migrate in search of cheaper labor and lower standards.”

    The US would be in violation of its own Constitution if it were to “disallow” industries to migrate. The US worker is among the highest paid (and most productive) in the world, which is why it’s difficult for companies to compete in a global market against countries like Mexico and China on labor costs. This is also the reason why so many Mexicans are eager to move here for work.

    You are right about LatAm, but what has failed there more than anything is the almost total lack of ethics in those countries, and the fact that they are (and have been for centuries) oligarchies, not democracies.

  • brian

    On US habit of imprisoning (let alone killing) journalists:

    ‘Only America-hating traitors believe in due process for journalists
    In 2001, Sami al-Haj was working as a camerman for Al Jazeera when he was detained by the U.S. military in Afghanistan and then transferred to Guantanamo, where he has remained for the last six years without ever being accused of any involvement in terrorism. Instead, as Washington Monthly editor Rachel Morris detailed in her superb cover story in Columbia Journalism Review a few months ago, virtually all of al-Haj’s interrogations focused on Al Jazeera and his detention was fueled at least in part by the Bush administration’s contempt for Al Jazeera’s reporting. I wrote about Morris’ story and al-Haj’s plight here.

    For obvious reasons, it is highly disturbing that the U.S. Government imprisons journalists for years without bothering to charge them with any crime. The U.S. is doing the same with A.P. photojournalist Bilal Hussein. These aren’t “prisoners of war” captured fighting on a battlefield, but rather, accredited journalists taking pictures and filming events that the U.S. Government dislikes.

    As a result of all of this, this weekend Congressman Keith Ellison became one of America’s very few elected officials to speak out against this practice, insisting that al-Haj should be either charged with crimes and convicted or released:

    A campaign to free a journalist imprisoned at Guantanamo gained support Thursday from the first Muslim member of Congress, who urged authorities to prosecute or release him after more than five years without charges. . . .

    In a rare show of public support from a U.S. official, Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison, a Democrat, called for a hearing to determine whether the military has legitimate reason to hold Al-Haj with about 330 other men at the prison on a Navy base in Cuba. “If he’s a bad actor, prove it. If not, let him out,” the congressman told the Associated Press.

    Rep. Ellison made clear that he believes all detainees at Guantanamo “should be allowed to challenge their confinement in the courts” — what we in America call “due process” — but also “said he is particularly concerned about the detention of a journalist.” As tyrannical as the power of process-less, indefinite imprisonment is, it presents a whole slew of added potential abuses for the U.S. Government to imprison war journalists for years without charging them with any crime. Rep. Ellison is thus defending both basic press freedoms and basic due process by demanding that al-Haj be charged or released.

    But the right-wing movement that dominates the Republican Party does not believe in these core American political principles. Hence, defense of those principles subjects one to the most vile of accusations. Here is Powerline’s Scott Johnson — long obsessed with spewing groundless though malicious innuendo about Ellison’s loyalties — seizing on the Muslim Congressman’s belief in due process to insinuate in the slimiest way possible that he’s in cahoots with The Terrorists: from Salon.com

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘That’s your purely subjective (and incorrect) opinion. The US is the wealthiest nation in the history of mankind, our poverty class is proportionately to our total population than all third world and most first world countries; poverty is hardly “rampant” here’

    as shown by US hundred billion dollar wars….But that money is not being spent on the US people or infrastructure.

    ‘Despite a year in which the US economy added jobs, the percentage of Americans living in poverty grew from 12.5 to 12.7 percent last year – the fourth straight year it’s risen.
    That increase, reported in the much-anticipated annual Census Bureau study Tuesday, surprised many analysts who had expected the number to drop along with unemployment’ CSMonitor.com

    thats 12% of 300 million, equals 36 million off people. So, poverty rampant

    Clavos: ‘The poorest among us are far richer than the poor of almost anywhere else in the world.’

    far richer? almost anywhere else? I guess that ‘almost’ is a safety net qualifier.The poor are poor only when they live in societies that create destitution.
    ================================
    Even more remarkable;
    Clavos: ‘The US would be in violation of its own Constitution if it were to “disallow” industries to migrate’

    Thats an interesting constitution that allows industry to move off shore in the interest of profit and so impoverish workers and whole communities…thats a constitution in need of a Chavez style revision.
    But does the US constitution allow that? Youve not shown it does.
    I see you have not had to suffer a loss of employment because your employer wants to make a faster buck in china.

    =============================
    Clavos: ‘The US worker is among the highest paid (and most productive) in the world, which is why it’s difficult for companies to compete in a global market against countries like Mexico and China on labor costs. This is also the reason why so many Mexicans are eager to move here for work.’

    Most productive? Check your clothing next time and see where its made…ditto your care, watch etc.
    As for the mexicans:
    ‘Trade liberalization
    The massive decrease in living standards for the Mexican rural poor since the 1980s as a result of trade liberalization generally,[14] and cuts in subsidies for peasant producers and increased competition specifically, has brought about a great rise in emigration from the Mexican countryside. According to the Wall Street Journal, the incomes of the bottom quintile in Mexico (urban and rural) have fallen by 21% since trade liberalization.[14] This can be seen as the principal cause of emigration from the Mexican countryside both to Mexican cities and the United States itself. Agricultural trade liberalization was a component of North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), but it began before NAFTA and is part of a “wider constellation of policies and policy changes that affect the rural poor.”[15] These actions have hurt the rural poor, particularly the 3 million farmers growing Mexico’s traditional staple, corn.[15] These farmers face tough competition from the subsidized agribusiness of the United States. Indeed, it has been estimated that since the 1990’s, 2 million agricultural laborers (including farmers and their employees) have been forced to leave their farms and seek employment elsewhere as a result of U.S. grain subsidies in combination with NAFTA.[16] It is reasonable to assume that a significant percentage of these 2 million expropriated workers immigrated to the United States’ Wikipedia

  • brian

    [Entire comment deleted. BRIAN: This space is for you to tell us what you think, not to play duelling quotations. Enough now. Comments Editor]

  • Clavos

    Wow! That’s a lot of things wrong with the USA!

    Near as I can tell, there really isn’t anything good about America, is there, brian?

  • brian

    What does Giselle know that Clavos doesnt about the US economy:

    ‘Gisele no longer accepts dollarsYes, that Gisele. Gisele Bundchen, the supermodel. You know, the Brazilian beauty and former squeeze of Leonardo DiCaprio. OH OK, OK – this Gisele:
    You see, it just doesn’t make good business sense for a girl to take dollars anymore.
    Bloomberg reports that Gisele, who is generally acknowledged to be the industry’s top-earning model, now insists that she is paid in pretty much any currency, aside from the ailing US dollar.
    In doing so, she has created an unlikely alliance with the likes of Warren Buffett and Bill Gross in betting that the dollar is only going one way in the coming months: down.
    When Bundchen, who, according to Forbes earned $33m in the year to June, signed a contract in August to represent Pantene hair products, she demanded payment in euros, according to Veja, Brazil’s biggest weekly magazine.
    She’ll also get euros for the deal she reached last October with Dolce & Gabbana to promote the designer’s new fragrance, Veja reported.
    etc
    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2007/11/05/8600/gisele-no-longer-accepts-dollars/

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘Near as I can tell, there really isn’t anything good about America, is there, brian?’

    the not-so-well-known history of the US shows its pretensions to being an enlightened nation and a beacon for humanity to be fraudulent….

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Dave – as Franco says: if you’re a capitalist and not maximizing profits then you will go out of business…private ownership is not the sole defining characteristic of capitalism – the capitalist is defined by his actions

    I hate to disagree with Franco, if he really did say that, but the business which cuts its profit margin will be able to reduce the price of its product and thereby undersell the competition, and increase market share. So in fact, as demonstrated ably by WalMart, cutting the profit margin in fact leads to enormous success and beating the competition into the ground.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    “the not-so-well-known history of the US shows its pretensions to being an enlightened nation and a beacon for humanity to be fraudulent….”

    “Enlightened???” Are you kidding?? The Americans built their “democracy” on the backs of slaves and illegal immigrants!!!

    “Beacon for what humanity???” Who in their right mind would consider this cesspool a “Beacon???”

    Can no one rid us of this noxious place???

  • bliffle

    Well, that proves Bundchen is smarter than a lot of people. probably smarter than George Bush, but then, who isn’t? Let’s see, Putin fooled Bush into trusting him; Sadaam fooled Bush into thinking he had WMD; Curveball fooled Bush; Musharaf totally euchred Bush. OBL still makes Bush look stupid and impotent. Even Hugo Chavez made Bush look stupid.

    Those “no WMD” guys like Hans Blix and Scott Ritter are getting the last laugh: they were right and Bush was wrong.

    Even old Fidel Castro is getting some laughs on Bush. Castro and that other commie, Hugo Chavez, apparently give the horse laugh to GWB.

    Maybe it’s easier to find someone who is dumber than Bush, someone who’s been fooled by him. Well, there’s a lot of US citizens Bush fooled, and he’s made a bunch of republicans look pretty dumb. And he keeps on fooling the democrats, much like Saddam Hussein fooled the gullible into believing he had WMD. Bush fooled a lot of Political editors and their chorus of cheerleaders at BC, but that’s too easy, anyone can do that.

    Why is it that all the people who are smarter than Bush are foreigners and all the people who are dumber are USA folk? Has that famous “dumbing down” of America been all to successful?

    Oh, wait a minute. I found a foreigner that Bush outsmarted: Tony Blair. A proud moment for Dear Old England.

  • Clavos

    “Why is it that all the people who are smarter than Bush are foreigners and all the people who are dumber are USA folk? Has that famous “dumbing down” of America been all to successful?”

    Easy. Americans are stupidest people on earth.

  • brian

    Bliffle writes some piffle:

    ‘Even old Fidel Castro is getting some laughs on Bush. Castro and that other commie, Hugo Chavez, apparently give the horse laugh to GWB.’

    President chavez is not a communist, as he has said many times. He is more a Gailbraithian…

    Youre use of the word ‘commmie’ shows you to be a bit of a neanderthal.

  • Franco

    Clavos, he hasn’t been around the block yet.

  • Clavos

    You’re right, Franco.

    Can’t resist having some fun, though.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Holy dictatorial demagogues, Batman! Is this thread still going?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Well, those towering intellects Gisele Bundchen and Naomi Campbell are on Brian’s side. Clearly we’ve been fools to argue with him.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Why drag Giselle Bundchen into it? Or are you just mad at her because she wants to be paid in Euros rather than dollars?

  • Silver Surfer

    Geez, Brian, do you reckon Giselle might be asking for euros ’cause she spends so much of her time in Europe? Back to me, though. They can pay me anything but peanuts, which is what I get now. I’ll take US dollars, euros, Aussies, GBP, whatever – even rupees or ThaiBaht if they stump up enough of them.

    As long as I can get me a nice new $8000 Indian-built Royal Enfield motorbike and a new barbecue I’ll be happy. I promise I’ll plant a couple of palm trees in exchange because I do care for the planet even when I’m eating it.

    Doesn’t take much to please us down this way.

  • Silver Surfer

    How did that well-know social activist and voice of world conscience Naomi Campbell end up on this thread being touted by Brian as some bizarre evidence that Hugo Chavez is instituting hugely impressive social programs for his people?

    Chavez might well be handing over apartment blocks to the poor and the downtrodden, but dragging La Campbell along for the ride is a bit rich, don’t ya reckon?

    Naomi’s idea of social change in the past has involved leaving one party full of the rich and famous for another because it doesn’t have the right people or the right mood-altering substances.

    Perhaps she’s turned over a new leaf.

  • troll

    Dave – #605: note the conflated concepts: ‘profit margin’ and ‘profit’ – misdirection is futile

    Clavos and Franco – your kind words are embarrassing and problematic as I’ll have to find a way to mask them from the rest of my commie revolutionary reeducation committee neighborhood watch

    I’m sorry if my writing comes across as code – I’ll try to make my few points clear:

    1 – suffering (human – animal – plant – mother earth) is aesthetically displeasing to anyone with eyes to see (and a heart to feel)…and is enemy #1

    2 – capitalism (‘complex’ modern capitalism included) while improving the lot of the few has been unable to see to the needs of the many…(where do you think the wealth that makes the ‘first world’ possible comes from – ?)…exploitation – poverty – theft are built in features of this system of production

    3 – socialism is no better…all ‘government’ should be problem oriented and ad hoc

    4 – there is no force of historical material necessity nor any invisible hand leading us to a better world – it’s going to have to be intensionally ‘made by man’…and for that we need a radical rebirth of wonder

    5 – nothing never changes – even human nature – so be nice

  • troll

    oh and I forgot to add: POM For Ever

  • Lapdog

    And NED for never.

  • Martin Lav

    Mexican weekly Etcétera, under the byline Gilberto Guevara Niebla–no relation to Che himself, yet a figure of great importance in the revolutionary history of the 1960s. Gilberto Guevara Niebla was arguably the single most important student leader of the Mexican student uprising of 1968–the uprising that was finally put down in a massacre by the Mexican army in October 1968.

    He wrote, “Che offered his life to the cause of the disinherited, but he did it by offering a political method that, in the long run, had disastrous effects on whoever tried to uphold it. Guerrilla war imposed a militarist logic and closed the space for democracy. What Latin America lived since Che launched his slogans was a bloodbath and a wave of destruction and terror. … The myth of Che has been a wall impeding the observation of those fatal historical results.” Who was Che? A man who “wanted to change the world through the means–always sordid–of killing other men.”

  • moonraven

    Just to clear up two fuzzy points:

    1. NO, THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT THE USA!

    I cannot even get a decent piece of pie there anymore.

    2. Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)

    Luxembourg … $56,380
    Norway … $51,810
    Switzerland … $49,600
    United States … $41,440
    Denmark … $40,750
    Iceland … $37,920
    Japan … $37,050
    Sweden … $35,840
    Ireland … $34,310
    United Kingdom … $33,630

    Four of those countries have socialist governments/economies. The UK is a mix.

    Seems to work for the richest countries!

  • Clavos

    “Four of those countries have socialist governments/economies. The UK is a mix.”

    And, unlike Venezuela and Cuba, none are dictatorships.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Um, none of those countries operate under pure socialism. Every one of them allows entrepreneurial businesses and is generally capitalist economically. They are only socialist in that they provide a great deal of government service at a high tax rate. Aside from that they pretty much leave people alone as far as how they earn money, with the exception of two that I believe have wage controls on selected industries. None of them have a completely centrally directed economy.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Geez, Brian, do you reckon Giselle might be asking for euros ’cause she spends so much of her time in Europe? Back to me, though. They can pay me anything but peanuts, which is what I get now. I’ll take US dollars, euros, Aussies, GBP, whatever – even rupees or ThaiBaht if they stump up enough of them.

    What amuses me about the Giselle story – which is getting a LOT of press coverage – is that she doesn’t seem to understand that it makes no difference what currency she gets paid in. When she renegotiates her contracts to switch from dollars to Euros they’re still going to be for an equivalent amount of money. They’re not going to take a $2 million contract and make it a 2 million Euro contract. I get the feeling she doesn’t quite grasp that concept. Plus I sincerely doubt she’s getting paid in cash anyway.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Nalle, NO COUNTRY on the planet operates under PURE socialism. It doesn’t exist, and never has. [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    Clavos, the US is a capitalist dictatorship–and it doesn’t work except for the very wealthy. Of which you are not a part.

    But, more to the point, I was merely calling you on your [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] laughable claim that the US is the wealthiest country in history.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, firstly, you were the one to add the qualifier pure to socialism, so your objection is pointless and secondly, I wasn’t aware that it is a requirement of socialism to have a centrally directed economy. I thought that was the goal of the early communists.

    Finally, socialism and capitalism are not opposites or in any way mutually incompatible. Just a small heads up from the 21st Century…

  • Martin Lav

    MR:
    Funny how you “crow” on and on about Latin and South America and yet I don’t see any of them on the list.

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    1. NO, THERE IS NOTHING GOOD ABOUT THE USA!

    oh, c’mon….

    miniature golf?

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    There seems to be a very basic lack of understanding and correct usage of the English language operating on this site.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    I only refuted Clavos’ jingoistic claim that the US was the wealthiest country on the planet!

    I did not make any claim regarding wealth for Latin America–which has, in fact, the most unequal distribution of wealth on the planet.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Martin Lav

    Que? No comprende ingles.

  • Clavos

    “Clavos, the US is a capitalist dictatorship–and it doesn’t work except for the very wealthy. Of which you are not a part.”

    You’re right, mr, I’m not very (or even slightly) wealthy, so how come I’m not oppressed? How is it that I’m free to say anything I want short of slander or libel, including criticize the president, his cabinet, the congress and even the clerks at the post office, to my heart’s content? For a dictatorship, that’s a lot of freedom. You try criticizing Calderón, gringa.

    “I only refuted Clavos’ jingoistic claim that the US was the wealthiest country on the planet!”

    No, actually you didn’t, gringa. You only showed that there are a few much smaller countries which on a per capita basis are “wealthier” than the US. None of them are as wealthy as the US is in the aggregate.

  • Franco

    Which county leads the world in donor and humanitarian aid.

    Um…………U……….Umm…………….S………….mmm…………….A?

    Correct Answer, 10 points.

    World’s largest single country donor of foreign aid. U.S. official development assistance of $22.7 billion (estimated) in 2006 is the second highest annual level ever provided by any donor country. (The U.S. provided $27.6 billion in 2005).

  • troll

    nothing good about America – ?

    this one special for ‘moonraven’

  • Martin Lav

    Trust me, the US got a whole lot better when she left.

  • Clavos

    troll,

    Loved it! The confederate flag is the crowning touch! :>)

    And all the way from bonnie Scotland no less!!

    Hee Hee.

  • troll

    …the capitalist and socialist countries on that list of wealth and their lackey banker states should wear their positions as badges of shame and get to work healing the world

  • brian

    silver surfer: ‘How did that well-know social activist and voice of world conscience Naomi Campbell end up on this thread being touted by Brian as some bizarre evidence that Hugo Chavez is instituting hugely impressive social programs for his people?’

    Me: Yes she seems to be…as she with Nelson Mandela foundation. Go read the article i posted…again

    SS: ‘Chavez might well be handing over apartment blocks to the poor and the downtrodden, but dragging La Campbell along for the ride is a bit rich, don’t ya reckon?’

    Me: Not at all…her enthusiasm for what Chavez and his govt has achieved is obvious.

    SS: ‘Naomi’s idea of social change in the past has involved leaving one party full of the rich and famous for another because it doesn’t have the right people or the right mood-altering substances.’

    Me: ‘People do change….you may not.

  • brian

    So many misconceptions and so little time.

    Dave: ‘First off, most corporations in the US encourage workers to invest in stock in those corporations under very beneficial terms, making them at least in part owners in the company, and certainly letting them share in the profits.’

    Me: so you urge workers to become investors. All this does is makes those who can afford it complicit in the profiteering imperitive…that is they too would vote to offshore jobs….

    Dave: ‘Second, when jobs are sent ‘offshore’ the net result is an increase in management positions in the home company with the workers whose jobs were exported often moved into higher paying supervisory jobs. On the whole, when a job is sent overseas it creates at least two new, higher paying jobs at home.’

    Me: this one is laughable…theres usually more indians than chiefs….the indians lose their jobs…while the chiefs dont…that WILL create more friction between the classes.
    Youve not proven your absurd claim, but it reminds me of Bessemers wheel….
    In the end youll be a a nation of managers with nothing to manage!

    Dave: ‘You might want to try looking at modern, capitalist businesses as they ARE rather than as the unrealistic boogeymen you’ve been told they are.’

    Me: this is how they are dave…crude profit making machines but not for the peoplewho do the work…just the investor class

  • brian

    dave: ‘Well, those towering intellects Gisele Bundchen and Naomi Campbell are on Brian’s side. Clearly we’ve been fools to argue with him.’

    Me: notice how those towering intellects the neocons have launched wars that have killed > 1 million people. They can do with a little of Campbell’s caring spirit.

    Another towering intellect: ‘Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

    Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.

    –60 Minutes (5/12/96)’

    The nazis were had towering intellects among them…

    You area fool, Dave…a clever fool, but a fool nonetheless…glad you recognise it. Fooled by Bush, fooled by capitalism etc

  • brian

    clavos: ‘And, unlike Venezuela and Cuba, none are dictatorships.’

    neither are dictatorships….just thought i’d help you along…Now in the US, we’d have a dictatorship if the democrats showed more spine…as it is Bushs executive orders, dictatorial as they are, are not quite necessary as there is no opposition.

  • Franco

    #623 — Christopher Rose

    Dave, firstly, you were the one to add the qualifier pure to socialism, so your objection is pointless and secondly, I wasn’t aware that it is a requirement of socialism to have a centrally directed economy. I thought that was the goal of the early communists.

    Christopher, help me understand your point to Dave, because is seems to be absent in regard for what Dave, myself and many others are making in regards to Chavez, and I don’t see Dave’s point out of context as it appears you see it from your statement.

    Because Cuba would quality as a centrally directed economy as pure socilism. No?

    And seeing Chavez as taking and making the very same steps Castor did, Chavez is taking them more slowly or cunningly because of riding into power on votes not guns, but the steps are the same and go against the very pillars of democracy, or what you call 21st Century socialism.

    The steps by Chavez have so fare, and are continuing to, set the stage for complete control of everything and everyone all at the hands of military enforcement.

    Wouldn’t you agree? So help me understand your point to Dave.

    Finally, socialism and capitalism are not opposites or in any way mutually incompatible. Just a small heads up from the 21st Century…

    In less of course the social authorities sent you a letter to inform you.

    Dear Mr. Rose

    We are sure you are watchful of the energy and resources belonging to the social community at large. Our assessments for required energy and resources in meeting the ever-growing community budgets are at the very heart of the social community

    Your services as comments editor at BC have been professional and appreciated, but are no longer required by the community as to the certainty that the debate over socialism and capitalism has ended deserving to there total mutually. We feel that further waist of the community’s energies and resources are not in harmony with the overall social justice of the community.

    We therefore request you suspend your professional serves at BC forthwith and review our kind offer for positively effecting the community on a larger scale in the further stay of these wasteful resources concerning these needless debates that have been increasing in intensity on other indecisive internet blogs.

    Kinky present the attached request form to your local director general at the Center for Social Justice and Resource Management in your community.

    Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

    Regards,

    Federal Center for Social Justice and Community Resource Management Authorities.
    (FCSJ-CRMA)

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, you’re confused. Dave’s remarks were in response to comment #618, which had nothing to do with Cuba.

    I think we’re talking somewhat at cross purposes. Please note that eight of the “Top 10″ countries in that list are in Europe, where we seem to have a different set of priorities and concerns than you Americans.

    I don’t understand how anybody could have an objection to capitalism, although it obviously needs a proper structure within which to function.

    Similarly, I don’t see how anybody except the most rigidly dogmatic could object to some social considerations being relevant to the management of contemporary existence.

    As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein “freedom” is good and “management” is bad.

    He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don’t mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein “freedom” is good and “management” is bad.

    You do indeed have perceptual difficulties. Of course I think freedom is good. I think it is probably the greatest good. But where did I ever oppose ‘management’? That’s what we have government for, to manage the things we don’t want to or can’t manage ourselves. Even capitalism needs to be managed in certain areas. What I’m opposed to is oppression, which is a whole different kettle of fish. I don’t like the idea of governments which arbitrarily take freedoms, or sacrifice the freedoms of their citizens to advance their own power or the power of an oligarchy or bureaucratic class.

    He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don’t mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.

    No, it’s fine, Christopher. It’s abundantly clear that at some point you got an impression of me and my beliefs which is peculiar and skewed and you’ve been operating off of that initial impression ever since.

    As for the socialism vs. capitalism thing, you’re attempting to disagree with me, yet you’re stating almost exactly the same thing I said in #620. I think that gets to the heart of why we butt heads – you just like to.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Me: so you urge workers to become investors. All this does is makes those who can afford it complicit in the profiteering imperitive…that is they too would vote to offshore jobs….

    What you don’t seem to get is that having workers profiting from a company is NOT a bad thing.

    Me: this one is laughable…theres usually more indians than chiefs….the indians lose their jobs…while the chiefs dont…that WILL create more friction between the classes.

    What classes? I thought we’d already laid that silly misconception to rest.

    As for sending jobs overseas, each US job outsourced creates on average 11 jobs overseas and 1 management job here in the US.

    In the end youll be a a nation of managers with nothing to manage!

    Except, of course, the rest of the world.

    Dave

  • Franco

    #639 — Christopher Rose

    Franco, you’re confused. Dave’s remarks were in response to comment #618, which had nothing to do with Cuba.

    Thank you for pointing out mistaken cross purposes. But I think that was Dave point when accounting for the spesifici discussion/debate on the newest member to the socialist club now in Latin America.

    Please note that eight of the “Top 10″ countries in that list are in Europe, where we seem to have a different set of priorities and concerns than you Americans.

    I don’t understand how anybody could have an objection to capitalism, although it obviously needs a proper structure within which to function.

    I agree, and the text in bold concerning the details of “proper structure” is the very heart of the debate. Could you elaborate a bit.

    Similarly, I don’t see how anybody except the most rigidly dogmatic could object to some social considerations being relevant to the management of contemporary existence.

    I agree, and similarly the text in bold is at the heart of the same discussion/debate. Could you elaborate a bit.

    As to Dave, I have difficulty in perceiving his political philosophy beyond that he seems to see things in very simplistic terms wherein “freedom” is good and “management” is bad.

    Could you then shed some political philosophy in less simplistic terms wherein you see “freedom” is bad and “management” is good.

    He will possibly take it as some kind of dis when I say that I find his approach and concerns both dated and naive, but I don’t mean to insult, merely to place things in a contemporary perspective from this distant shore.

    Can you be more specific on how your European contemporary perspective sees the pluses and minuses when comparing our basic cultural differences in that, Americans tending to be more into individualism and self sufficiency, and Europeans being into more cared for by the state.

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    I don’t think freedom, at least in absolute terms, is the greatest good and I’m sure you, if you took a moment to think rather than didact, would agree.

    The problem is that you have this fixed mindset that worries too much about government control.

    You may not have specifically lashed out against the concept of management but surely someone so committed to freedom as you bridles at the very notion. It’s certainly the impression you give.

    The fact of the matter is that as society grows larger and more complex, government and regulation must grow with it. The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things. The prospects for that seem as bright as those for you updating your mindset.

    As for me being the one that like to butt heads, that is classic pot/kettle stuff. You’re the one that is incapable of either refraining from arguing with people or actually departing from your quaint views. Get over yourself.

  • troll

    *The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things.*

    the whole hologram ‘exists’ in each individual piece…read your Bentov

  • http://www.buyingone.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, sorry to be brief but I’m going to watch Manchester United play Kiev in a minute.

    I don’t really have detailed responses to your first two questions. Maybe if Dave could let go of his dogma, he could riff on these themes, he’s the policy wonk after all!

    In terms of freedom being bad and management good, it all depends on specific circumstances. Obviously people should have as much freedom as possible, but equally obviously not freedom to indulge their every impulse.

    As to the US/self-sufficient vs European/dependent, as far as I know that’s a complete myth. There’s certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.

    Sorry for being brief, but football is more important than politics!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I don’t think freedom, at least in absolute terms, is the greatest good and I’m sure you, if you took a moment to think rather than didact, would agree.

    What would you propose as more important than freedom? What quality of life is meaningful if we aren’t free to enjoy it? What pleasure is worth having if we sacrifice our freedom to have it?

    The problem is that you have this fixed mindset that worries too much about government control.

    I think that’s the product of moving from the US at the height of the free spiritedness of the 1960s to the Soviet Union at the height of the post-Stalin grimness of the 1970s. The contrast left an indelible impression on me. It taught me immediate lessons which I think that others struggle to come to grips with. Not having had that experience you don’t understand how important freedom is and how easily it can be taken away.

    You may not have specifically lashed out against the concept of management but surely someone so committed to freedom as you bridles at the very notion. It’s certainly the impression you give.

    If what you’re really talking about is the same concept of management I expect from government, then I really don’t have a problem with it. Government regulation of things like public safety and infrastructure is reasonable and necessary.

    The fact of the matter is that as society grows larger and more complex, government and regulation must grow with it.

    Here is where I disagree. As government grows larger and more complex, the answer is to tear government down to its basics and start over again.

    The only alternative I am aware of is if people and their constructs took a more holistic rather than individualistic view of things. The prospects for that seem as bright as those for you updating your mindset.

    Sounds like a vague and ineffective answer to the problem to me. Moving away from individual responsibility just means moving towards giving that responsibility to government and making it grow even larger.

    IMO the only real ‘holistic’ solution is to tear down government, reassign responsibility to individuals as much as possible and try to rebuild society organically. Failing that radical solution we just have to keep an eye on government and not let it get too powerful.

    Dave

  • troll

    …actually Chris – Dave usually bitches about stupid government management rather than government management per say…despite his protestations he’s a good socialist soldier

  • troll

    (‘per se’ of course)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    There’s certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.

    Goofy statements like this are why we’re at loggerheads, Christopher. I agree that the US in practice is much less free than we like to think we are, but in Western Europe you’re also less free than you think you are.

    The reason you think that the US has more restriction on freedom than we think that it does, is likely because you define different things as essential to freedom than we do. If we don’t even think of freedom in the same terms all of our other disagreements might flow from that.

    My quick guess is that from the European viewpoint, freedom is seen mainly as freedom from certain things, while Americans see freedom more as freedom to do certain things. It’s the difference between freedom from hunger and the freedom to own a gun and hunt for food.

    Does that make any sense?

    Dave

  • Don Helmut

    If America is so bad why do they give more in aid than countries that practice paternal socialism? Shouldn’t countries so concerned with equality be on the forefront of philanthropy without “stupid” America having to bail them out all the time.

    The main misconception that socialism struggles under is they constantly make promises they can’t keep. Pure social will may get a man on the moon but it can’t bankroll massive unaffordable social programs.

  • moonraven

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    “The vice president of the United States was talking about us, but he made a mistake,” Chavez said, laughing. “Since those who govern the United States are a bunch of ignorant fools… he thinks I’m president of Peru.”

    “They don’t know where Venezuela is, nor do they know where Peru is,” Chavez told the crowd.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    But Cheney has bombs.

  • troll

    Marthe – I don’t get your repetition of this particular attack – we all know that Dave knows where Venezuela is…he mis-wrote himself yet you carry it on

    why – ?

  • moonraven

    He did NOT know!

    He said it was in CENTRAL America.

    CENTRAL America is not spelled anything like SOUTH America.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • troll

    perhaps he didn’t know the correct boundaries of central america…he does now

  • moonraven

    He also says he is a “historian”.

    I have news for both of you: History and Geography are inextricably related.

    Central America was all ONE country until independence.

    Some historian.

    The stupidity of you gringos makes me sick to my stomach.

  • alessandro

    Regarding, MR’s obsession over a geographical error: That’s why certain countries never move forward: they’re stuck in the past.

    CR, Man Utd. is looking fine but Arsenal still finer. Looking forward to the Roma/Man Utd. match. By then both seem likely to qualify. This may take some umpf from the match.

    That said,

    “In terms of freedom being bad and management good, it all depends on specific circumstances. Obviously people should have as much freedom as possible, but equally obviously not freedom to indulge their every impulse.”

    I agree.

    As to the US/self-sufficient vs European/dependent, as far as I know that’s a complete myth. There’s certainly far more law and possibly more state intrusion in the USA than anywhere I know of in Western Europe.

    I don’t agree.

    While there is more government intrusion in the U.S. than Americans care to admit, it is nowhere near what you see in Europe. That’s crazy talk.

    Seems to me Sweden is pretty interventionist that American socialists could ever dream of. And from my experiences in France and Italy (both beautiful languages. Especially Italian language of the arts and music and closes to classical Latin. Inside joke everyone), the state there has its hands everywhere – though the people tend to ignore it. I’m sure that includes other countries.

    Besides, don’t you ever read The Economist which publishes a study yearly that studies this? The U.S. historically always ranks ahead of European countries.

    Catch you later.

  • Franco

    CARACAS, Venezuela: A heated falling out between President Hugo Chavez and his former military chief is stirring debate in Venezuela over whether the rift reveals deeper divisions within the military.

    Former Defense Minister Raul Baduel, a longtime friend of Chavez, said Tuesday that he isn’t ruling out running for political office. He surprised many a day earlier when he condemned Chavez’s proposed constitutional reforms as a virtual “coup,” urging voters to reject them in a national referendum planned for next month.

    Chavez appears to be taking no chances. Condemning Baduel as “one more traitor,”

    November 7, 2007

  • Franco

    Hey brian, didn’t you say a coup d’état was illegal?

  • brian

    Dave: ‘I agree that the US in practice is much less free than we like to think we are, but in Western Europe you’re also less free than you think you are.’

    Both statements are fair…

  • brian

    ‘Help me understand this. Exactly “WHO” are deprived under capitalism, and “WHAT” are they deprived of?’

    take a look at New Orleans after Katrina….

    AS for the WHO, consider american workers whose work is migrated offshore, for starters

  • brian

    Dave: ‘What would you propose as more important than freedom? ‘

    well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc

    Even US invasion of Iraq was not quite absolute freedom….

  • Clavos

    “well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc”

    You confuse freedom with anarchy, brian.

    True freedom carries with it concomitant responsibilities, most of which limit your freedom to intrude on the freedom of others.

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘You confuse freedom with anarchy, brian.

    True freedom carries with it concomitant responsibilities, most of which limit your freedom to intrude on the freedom of others.’

    Clavos, when did you last hear Bush or any freedom monger say: ” freedom with concomitant responsibilities, democracy,and opportunity’

    Sorry, but tho you are correct, thats not the way this word is promulgated to the masses….

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Dave: ‘What would you propose as more important than freedom? ‘

    well, dave, absolute freedom means to do what ever you like, when you like, no regard for consequences.This acn include to kll when you like, to rob, etc etc

    That’s not an answer to my question, Brian. I already know what anarchy is, thanks. Now, tell me what you think is more important than freedom.

    Dave

  • troll

    …justice – ?

  • troll

    …food – ?

  • Clavos

    “…justice – ?”

    Usually not available without freedom.

    “…food – ?”

    Keeps you alive, but if you’re in a dungeon cell, do you want to be?

  • Clavos

    “Clavos, when did you last hear Bush or any freedom monger say: ” freedom with concomitant responsibilities, democracy,and opportunity'”

    At about the same time I heard Bush say, “Freedom means you can rob anyone you want to.”

  • troll

    …property – ?

    the old timers listed things in this order: life – liberty – property…and how about the pledge which lists liberty and justice without reducing one to the other

  • barnyard fowl

    One mans freedom is another mans slavery. Seems like it’s always that way. For the Israelis to be free the Palestinians must be oppressed. For the Lebanese Christians to be free the Arabs must be oppressed.

    For George Bush to be free the Iraqis must be oppressed.

    For the invading Europeans to be free in the Americas the indigenous peoples must be oppressed.

    Maybe freedom is an illusion. Maybe Kristofferson was right.

    Or maybe freedom is just a deliberate deceit: “sorry, in order for me to be free I must kill you and take your goods.”

    Seems as though the thoughtful person would be well advised to stay clear of any vigorous advocate of HIS Freedom. Or at least regard them very carefully.

    Anyway, it seems that ‘freedom’ is not an unalloyed good.

    Next.

  • troll

    nicely put fowl…and for the freedom that I have felt over the years to consume chicken dinners I apologize

  • Clavos

    And speaking of freedom, or in this case, the lack thereof:

    According to this Miami Herald report, armed, hooded Chavista thugs, reminescent of the heyday of the KKK, poured onto the campus of the Central University firing their weapons and releasing tear gas in the vicinity of students returning from a peaceful demonstration at the Supreme Court to protest Chavez-proposed changes to the Venezuelan Constitution.

    According to the report, as many as 80,000 students participated in the march. Their leaders were received by Supreme Court President Luis Estela Morales, and the entire demonstration was peaceful and nonviolent.

    University authorities and other eyewitnesses reported that the armed thugs appeared to be Chavistas. At least nine people were injured in the melee; two by gunfire.

    Venezuelan law bars state security forces from entering university campuses, unless requested by university officials.

    According to the Associated Press, the protesters are calling for a suspension of the referendum, slated for a vote on December 2, alleging that the proposed amendments will weaken civil liberties and give unprecedented power to Chavez.

    The protest by Central University students was mirrored by similar protests led by students in the cities of Merida, Maracaibo, Puerto La Cruz, San Cristobal, Barquisimeto and Valencia.

  • troll

    …as for the identities of the thugs – how does one decide – ?

  • moonraven

    We have seen this before.

    On April 11, 2002 the t.v. channels went so far as to MANIPULATE images so that it looked as if chavistas were firing on protestors.

    Only one problem: they were firing back at snipers on rooftops and under the bridge there were no protestors anyway–as they had taken a different route.

    But the RCTV/GLOBOVISION/VENEVISION gang insisted that Chavez had called for the murder of the opposition. That was how they fomented the brief coup.

    We also saw this before when the opposition hired a portgugese hitperson to fire at opposition military folks in Plaza Altamira.

    Nobody like the Venezuelan opposition to murder their own for their own ends.

    Well, except for the Bush/Cheney Gang, of course.

    This, too, will be exposed. The opposition is WAAAAAY too predictable.

    Sort of like clavos, who apparently believes that Calderon is now the president of Venezuela.

    A day or two ago he told us how much freedom he has to protest against Bush (yeah, just let him raise some of the hell they are raising in the street in Venezuela and we will not hear from him again on this site, as I do not believe posts from Guantanamo are permitted!)

    He doesn’t have a fraction of the freedom that the opposition has to burn cars and shoot at folks in Caracas–yet he insists that there are no freedoms in Venezuela.

    And his final salvo–a complete non sequitur–is that I have no freedom to protest against Calderon.

    Well, I have news for the swamprat. Despite Article 33 of the Mexican Constitution which prohibts politicking by foreigners, I have a lot more freedom here than clavos has in Bushlandia.

    However, I fail to see that Mexico and Venezuela are the same country. Nor that freedom or the lack of it in Mexico is the topic of this thread.

    Another geographically challenged person, apparently.

  • moonraven

    I would like clavos to explain to us HOW HE KNOWS THE IDENTITY of the UNIDENTIFIABLE thugs who opened fire on students.

    If he can convince me, I see a whole new career opening up for him as one of those psychics that helps out the cops.

    Ooops, maybe not such a good idea–as one of those psychics has been in jail here in Mexico now for 10 years–La Paca–for framing Raul Salinas by planting a skeleton at one of his properties….

  • moonraven

    I would also like clavos to explain to us WHY anti-War vets are not allowed to participate in a parade in Long Beach, California.

    Let’s hear it for the freedom to protest and disagree with the Bush Gang!

    GuantanamerO–O–GuatanamerO. (To music to you-know-the-song.)

  • bliffle

    Is waterboarding torture?

    I see that this pressing question is (apparently) insoluble to the massed Intellectual Prowess of the Congress, the Bush Administration, the Supreme Court, and even the Mighty Brainpower of BC (which, as usual, seeks to hide it’s failure in dilatory flights of irrelevance).

    So, I have had to devise the path to the solution.

    It’s very easy, really. We simply request Mukasey, as prerequisite to his appointment, to make the decision. While being waterboarded by Moonraven, of course.

    Nothing could be more fair.

    And if not Mukasey, perhaps some other interested party would come forward to decide this important moral issue, like Rumsfeld, Cheney, Nalle, JOM, etc.

    I’m sure we can think of suitable alternates should Mukasey be unavailable.

    Everyone wants to be The Decider, after all.

  • moonraven

    The Decider is this beautiful bird, and I say: Start with Cheney!

    At the very least, he will have a heart attack from being tortured, and will be out of the picture until the next lifetime–when he will come back as a dog turd in a Muslim country: Bangladesh.

  • moonraven

    I think that’s it for the day, suckers and chumps.

    The hammock is waiting….

  • REMF

    Or we could torture Rush Limbaugh…

    Just deprive him of food for an hour or two…

    Or maybe squeeze that zit on his lard-ass (you know, the one that got him out of ‘Nam)…

  • troll

    waterboard him with snapple

  • Franco

    The opposition-run Bolivian Senate repelled Thursday Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez’s “serious meddling” for his warning against a “machine-gun Vietnam” if his Bolivian counterpart Evo Morales were overthrown or killed.

    Bolivian Senate refuses Chávez’s “serious meddling”

  • brian

    clavos: ‘According to this Miami Herald report, armed, hooded Chavista thugs, reminescent of the heyday of the KKK, poured onto the campus of the Central University firing their weapons and releasing tear gas in the vicinity of students returning from a peaceful demonstration at the Supreme Court to protest Chavez-proposed changes to the Venezuelan Constitution.’

    grea source, Clavos…Miami is only a strong hold of latin american terrorists…i see no evidence the gun men were chavistas.

  • brian


    At about the same time I heard Bush say, “Freedom means you can rob anyone you want to.”‘

    Which is the operative meaning of the word ‘freedom’….in Bush Amerikkka.

    Incidentally, KKK was/is an american institution, at home in the american south as are fascists like the cuba americans and their venezuela shopping counterparts

  • brian

    Watch those falafels!

    Terrorism and Falafel
    Author Author: Haitham

    One of the traits of eating FALAFEL is the possibility of getting blacklisted in America or worse accused of being a terrorist.

    Falafel and terrorismThis news story revealed that the FBI planed to use records from San Francisco grocery stores to spot terrorists; they believed that a spike in falafel sales would lead them to secret Iranian agents.

    This is laughable. Its also an eg of ethnic targeting…no longer are terrorists justed by their acts,now its by what they eat…so all peoples who et falafel(which includes israelis) are automatically terrorists…
    No wonder the dumb americans are such easy patsies for the much smarter zionists.

  • brian

    Who here, besides me, opposes the US war in and occupation of iraq?

    Lets see what people think…

  • brian

    Clavos: ‘That’s not an answer to my question, Brian. I already know what anarchy is, thanks’

    But does Bush? Whats more important than freedom? If you were starving, evne you would say: a crust of bread.

  • Clavos

    “grea source, Clavos…Miami is only a strong hold of latin american terrorists…i see no evidence the gun men were chavistas.”

    Not the only source I linked in that comment. There was also a link to an AP article, which you conveniently forgot to mention.

    But you’re right; those masked gunmen firing on anti-chavez demonstrators clearly weren’t chavistas.

    According to Cuban intelligence sources they were actually a bunch of Argentines in town for some diplomacy training from el chango who were dissatisfied with Sra. de Kirchner’s victory and who got a little mixed up about where they were.

    No way they could have been chavistas; they’re all peaceful socialist (oops! bolivarian) flower children.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I don’t quite get the point of #683. If the Civil Rights Commission got a couple of extra Republicans added to it, won’t that mean better protections for minorities, especially in the south? Why is that a problem?

    Dave

  • troll

    Clavos – tell me that you really don’t see the possibility that the thugs/provocateurs were looking to generate sympathy for the opposition

    but where are the martyr’s coffins – ?

    ‘firing on the students’…I’m drafting a recommendation that when Chavez gets his AK factories going he forget the selector switch – fully automatic is the only way for such poor shots

  • Clavos

    troll,

    I’ll grant you the possibility, as in anything is possible, but…

  • Franco

    Troll,

    This opposition protest was specificly over the 69 proposed changes to the Venezuelan Constitution. Just one of those changes would grant unlimited power to president for life Hugo Chavez to call a state of emergency anytime he wants for any reason he wants without approval of the courts or the congress or any other living soul in Venezuela. .

    If he can make the student opposition look like “violent fascist” now, and the sooner the better makes it already justifiably when he has this power he can call a state of emergency and forbid the opposition from even protesting.

    So troll – tell me that you really don’t see the possibility that the thugs/provocateurs were looking to generate sympathy for Chavez is support of constitutional changes.so he can totally control the opposition, democratically of course.

  • moonraven

    If franco [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] he would KNOW that this paying and training of thugs by the CIA has been seen over and over again in Caracas since 2002. It’s now worth a yawn or two at best. Everyone knows that the thugs are not chavistas. The CIA doesn’t hire and train chavistas. Duh.

    Same old same old. And clavos still provides no proof that the thugs were chavistas, either. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Oh and the Scarcity of Frijoles caper has now moved to Nicaragua – where opposition to Ortega’s government is now hoarding beans so that the folks who do not depend on the beans for their daily meals can complain [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    Frijoles are plentiful here–well, of course, not in Tabasco State–which is under a few feet of water thanks to government corruption (pocketing the money budgeted by the congress for hydraulic measures).

    Sigh. Same old same old.

  • moonraven

    I would like franco and clavos to explain to us why they are supporting the opposition students–who tried to set fire to the School of Social Work building at UCV Wednesday while not allowing the 150 students inside–mostly women wear SI stickers indicating their support for the referendum–to go out.

    Would you hand out soap and Zyclon B, too?

  • moonraven

    Brian,

    I am against ALL wars and All invasions–two of which are happening in Afghanistan and Iraq.

  • brian

    Clavos favours AP… his naive faith in this institution is touching. But ive found it to be less than honest.
    First of all AP is an AMERICAN newsagency.

    1. the Times years ago wrote the following:
    ‘Mr. Pinchot is a careless man. He made this statement:

    “I have had a long acquaintance with The Associated Press. I am perfectly willing to stand behind the charge made by Eastman and Young that The Associated Press does color and distort the news, that it is not impartial, and that it is a monopolistic corporation, not only in constraint of news but in constraint of truth.”‘

    To which Mr Pinochet replied:
    ‘The Times says that the Associated Press could not possibly color the news, because it serves all kinds of newspapers–“Republican, Democratic, Bull Moose, Independent, etc.”–so that if it was not impartial “there would be a deafening uproar and tumult all over the country.” I do not think that this is either an impressive argument or a fair statement of the case.

    As a matter of fact there has been a tumult of protest against Associated Press news coloring throughout the country. And with this protest newspaper owners who are members of the Associated Press and dependent upon it for their information are in many instances heartily sympathetic. Within the last month I have talked with a number of editors of newspapers that are members of the Associated Press. They assured me that the charges of suppression and misrepresentation made by THE MASSES are well within the truth. They, each of them, expressed the sincere hope that there would be a searching investigation which would result in a change of policy. Marxists.org
    =======================
    2. Associated Press lies:

    ‘The Associated Press Lies
    Submitted by davidswanson on Sat, 2005-09-24 19:15. Media
    There are hundreds of thousands of people marching in DC, right now, but the AP reports:

    Demonstrators call for U.S. troops to leave Iraq
    JENNIFER C. KERR
    Associated Press
    WASHINGTON – Opponents of the war in Iraq marched by the tens of thousands Saturday in a clamorous day of protest, song and remembrance of the dead, some showing surprisingly diverse political views even as they spoke with one loud voice in wanting U.S. troops home. AfterDowningStreet.org
    ===============
    3. ‘Associated Press Falsely Portrays Chavez as Seeking 25 Year Term
    by Justin Delacour *

    A little scrutiny of a recent Associated Press report about Venezuela provides a lesson in how the English-language press often gets the story wrong. VoltaireNet.org
    ====================================

    And of course, the western and esp american media has been telling lies and demonising Chavez since he was first elected.

    YOU place a great deal of trust in AP and other media, whereas you should be scrutinising them.

  • brian

    Franco: ‘tell me that you really don’t see the possibility that the thugs/provocateurs were looking to generate sympathy for Chavez is support of constitutional changes.so he can totally control the opposition, democratically of course.

    Well, i dont see the ‘possibility’ or th actuality….How can Chavistas shooting people generate sympathy for Chavez? Duh….
    Logic seems to have abandoned you.
    We know this stunt was tried in april 2002, are the power obsessed Opposition at it again?

  • Franco

    Troll, considering some of the questions you have asked, I thought you might find this interesting about Simón Bolívar, The following are some excerpts from the full study linked below.
    .
    Ignorance and its remedy, education, concerned Bolivar greatly. His letters and public addresses make frequent mention of the illiteracy of the masses to which he attributed their lack of interest in democratic government.

    A constitution could not, in his opinion, change political concepts and practices molded by three centuries of royal government.~ His political system was primarily one of paternalism. He envisioned a transitional period during which the people would be educated for complete democracy. History has proved the validity of his views. But many of his contemporaries claimed he sought a crown-a charge unwarranted by the evidence at hand.

    Bolivar fervently believed in democracy, yet more in the Hamiltonian sense than the Jeffersonian. He, like many other statesmen of Colombia, pleaded for recognition of the lack of political experience on the part of the people. Few, too few, were even acquainted with parliamentary procedure; and virtually none possessed an appreciation for compromise, so vital to the operation of the United States and English systems of democracy.

    Viewed in the historical perspective, his greatest political opponent was the United States Constitution of 1787. Bolivar’s own words are proof of this statement.’ Time and time again he pleaded with congressional delegates and friends not to adopt many of the features of that instrument of government. The colonial political experience of the United States citizen, he repeated, was utterly different from that of the Spanish-American of the day. Time and time alone together with a truly patriotic guidance could prepare the people of Colombia for full participation in their government.

    he was a political martyr engendered of colonial adolescence in the field of government and enraptured by the paeans to the United States, English, and French: democratic-republican systems.

    The grandeur of Bolivar’s plans is vividly reflected in the present-day Organization of American States

    Terms such as Inter-American Cooperation, Continental Solidarity, Non-Intervention, and Continental Defense have real meaning today. They were born of necessity created by a fear that the continental European nations of the 1820’s, leagued under the Holy Alliance, would seek to eradicate republicanism in the Spanish New World.

    New York: Bolivarian Society of Venezuela. 1951

  • moonraven

    FRanco,

    I fail to see YOUR point.

  • Amrita

    Very informative article on cult of personality!

  • Daniel Brockert

    As an anti-war activist I can tell you from personal experience that the US media made it very difficult to get airtime. Amy Goodman made an excellent video about it.
    Retired Generals got significant airtime, giving regular commentary. I never once saw an anti-war activist sitting with the anchor and retired general for a significant amount of time.
    I’ll cede you the point that there was no government censorship, but that was precisely because it wasn’t necessary. No US media network has been involved in any coup attempts.
    Lets compare US treatment of Al-Jazeera in Iraq to Hugo Chavez’ treatment of RCTV. Chavez had a much stronger foundation for not renewing the station license than the Bush administration and Iraqi governments had for placing restrictions on Al-Jazeera.
    In the case of RCTV, they actively colluded with forces inside the Venezuelan military to overthrow the government. In the case of Al-Jazeera it was granting interviews to Al-Qaida, which happens to be a group I want to know about. I think knowing what Al-Qaida thinks happens to be very important.
    On a separate matter I have a couple questions, for starters, what is a “junior dictator?” How is a “junior dictator” different from a regular dictator? Is a junior dictator a president that wins elections and accepts defeats?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    As an anti-war activist I can tell you from personal experience that the US media made it very difficult to get airtime. Amy Goodman made an excellent video about it.

    I’m not sure what the context of this is. If you’re talking about anti-war activists on US TV I’m skeptical given how much airtime was given by the national networks to code pink and VVAW.

    Retired Generals got significant airtime, giving regular commentary. I never once saw an anti-war activist sitting with the anchor and retired general for a significant amount of time.

    Then you’re watching the wrong channels. And plenty of those generals were anti-war. The key thing is that they have some qualifications as commentators, while anti-war activists as a group are embarassingly ignorant about world affairs and especially about any factual aspects of the Iraq War.

    Lets compare US treatment of Al-Jazeera in Iraq to Hugo Chavez’ treatment of RCTV. Chavez had a much stronger foundation for not renewing the station license than the Bush administration and Iraqi governments had for placing restrictions on Al-Jazeera.

    They placed restrictions on all media, not just al Jazeera, and they did nothing to restrict their ability to broadcast TO Iraq.

    In the case of RCTV, they actively colluded with forces inside the Venezuelan military to overthrow the government. In the case of Al-Jazeera it was granting interviews to Al-Qaida, which happens to be a group I want to know about. I think knowing what Al-Qaida thinks happens to be very important.

    Interviews in which there were several instances of al Qaeda representatives sending out coded messages to their organization, as well as broadcasting what was essentally al Qaeda propaganda in pure, unedited form, all of which is equivalent to aiding and abetting the enemy which is on a par with the very limited role RCTV played in the coup attempt.

    On a separate matter I have a couple questions, for starters, what is a “junior dictator?”

    A dictator who hasn’t seized full power yet.

    How is a “junior dictator” different from a regular dictator?

    Well, in Chavez’ case there’s no longer much difference.

    Is a junior dictator a president that wins elections and accepts defeats?

    I hardly think that accepting a defeat on one plebescite and then end running it to get his way through direct presidential order is a saving grace.

    Dave

  • REMF

    “The key thing is that they have some qualifications as commentators, while anti-war activists as a group are embarassingly ignorant about world affairs and especially about any factual aspects of the Iraq War.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Wrong again, Nalle. See ivaw.com and votevets.org, both of which are comprised of Iraq veterans opposed to the invasion/occupation.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    MCH, in the same comment you’re responding to I did point out that VVAW which IVAW is a spinoff of did get a lot of media exposure. The tiny number of anti-war vets have been represented in the media far out of proportion to their numbers, as you point out.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    Chavez is entertaining in a paranoid-fidel-wannabe sort of way, and the thirty-foot-tall posters just really give him that wonderful “Banana republic presidente” vibe, it jibes with his rhetorical style. It’s just really kind of amusing that the leader of a country like Venezuela would play so well to stereotypes. it’s like he was scripted or something.