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HR676, US National Health Care Act: What’s Stopping Us?

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The Senate Finance committee headed by Senators Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley are going to decide which model of health care will be adopted by this country; they would not have been my first choice to oversee this crucial and necessary need. The fact that it is a finance committee, and not the health care industry, that will decide the type of national health care that will be adopted by the United States sends up a huge red flag in my mind.  I believe that Senator Baucus has an agenda to keep America saddled with the status quo, and is resistant to any true reform of our failing health care system. The following is an explanation of HR676 and what I believe is really motivating Senator Baucus.

In my opinion, the best health care plan for this country would be HR676, a single-payer system that would save billions in administrative and third party costs, allowing the bulk of the money appropriated in it to be spent on providing health care goods and services to all American citizens.

The Physicians For a National Health Plan website offers a General Resolution in support of the US National Health Insurance Act, HR676 which notes:

* Everyone deserves access to affordable quality health care.
* The number of Americans without HC exceeds 47 million.
* Millions of people with health care insurance have coverage so skimpy that a major illness or accident would lead to financial ruin. Medical bills contribute to one-half of all bankruptcies.
* Proposals for “consumer directed health care” would worsen this situation by penalizing the sick, discouraging prevention and saddling many working families with huge medical bills.
* Managed care and other market-based reforms have failed to contain health care costs, which now threaten the international competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers.
* Administrative waste stemming from our reliance on private insurers consumes one-third of health spending.
* U.S. hospitals spend 24.3% of their budgets on billing and administration while hospitals under Canada’s single-payer system spend only 12.9%.
* American physicians are inundated with bureaucratic tasks and costs that Canadian physicians avoid.
* Harvard researchers estimated that more than $300 billion could be recovered by replacing private insurance companies with a single-public-payer, enough to cover the uninsured and improve coverage for all those who now have only partial coverage.

* “Consumer directed health care” adds yet another expensive layer of bureaucrats-the financial firms that manage health savings accounts.
* Entrusting care to profit-oriented firms diverts billions of dollars to outrageous incomes for CEOs and threatens the quality of health care.
* The US National Health Insurance act would assure universal coverage of all medically necessary services, contain costs by slashing bureaucracy, protect doctor patient relationship, assure patients a completely free choice of doctors and allow doctors a free choice of practice settings.

Support for HR676 calls upon federal legislators to work towards its enactment within the current congress.

 

When the Senate Finance Committee convened for their first and second round table discussions on health care reform, single-payer was not allowed a seat at the table. A group of respectable physicians, lawyers and nurses supporting single-payer health care stood up before Senator Baucus and the Senate Finance Committee, on May 5 and May 12 ,demanding that single-payer advocates be allowed to testify; forty-one witnesses were called before the committee over the next three days. The single-payer advocates were handcuffed, escorted from the room and arrested. The thirteen men and women who stood up to the Senate Finance Committee in support of single-payer health care were charged with disruption of Congress. They are known as the Baucus 13.

Their names are Dr. Margret Flowers, Dr. Pat Salomon, Dr. Carol Paris, Russell Mokhiber, Kevin Zeese, Mark Dudzik, and Adam Schneider, Katie Robbins, Dr. Judy Dasovich, Dr. Steve Fenichel, Sue Cannon, DeAnn McEwan, and Jerry Call.

What would motivate Senator Baucus to reject single-payer as a viable option in order to bring,much needed, reform to our present health care system? According to a public interest group, Common Dreams, Senator Baucus is the main architect of health care reform in Congress.  During the past two election cycles, he has also received more campaign contributions from health insurance companies ($183,750), and pharmaceutical corporations ($229,020), than any other sitting Democratic member of the House.   I believe these figures to be the primary motivator for Senator Max Baucus to keep single-payer off the table, and it appears that he is winning the battle.

Prosecutors asked that the Baucus 13 be ordered to stay away from the Dirksen Senate office building where the Senate finance committee meetings are being held and they got their wish.

Russel Mokhiber, a member of the single-payer action group, was interviewed after his court appearance. He said, “Sixty Americans die every day from lack of health insurance. Only single payer will save hundreds of billions of dollars in overhead, waste, profits and fraud needed to insure every person in this country. President Obama, Senator Baucus and the corporate Democrats are engaged in the futility of piecemeal tinkering while Americans die. We need to put an end to the private health insurance industry so that the American people can get the health care they deserve.” Mr. Mokhiber also said  “We are charging Senator Baucus with corruption of Congress. We believe we have a stronger case.”

According to recent polls, single-payer is supported by a majority of Americans, doctors and health economists. Senator Baucus has been repeatedly asked over the past months to allow a single payer advocate to testify. He has steadfastly refused.

 Paul Krugman, economist and op-ed columnist for the NY Times is quoted as saying “The unwillingness of other politicians to confront the insurance and other lobbies that so successfully frustrated the Clinton effort, a temporary remission in the growth of health care spending as HMOs briefly managed to limit cost increases, and the general distraction of a nation focused first on the gloriousness of getting rich, then on terrorism—have kept health care off the top of the agenda.”

Today, the United States is the only industrialized country in the world which does not provide quality health care for all of its citizens. Nothing can break the heart and spirit of a person more than realizing that their loved ones have suffered needlessly, and in many cases, actually die because their access to any type of health care has been barred due to economic circumstances or the interference of an insurer. The blind eye and greed of the insurance industry and special interests must be corrected and curbed so that we can move forward in this country.

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About Jeannie Danna

  • Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    After reading your article, I realized that what is going on now is a repeat of what happened in the Clinton administration when Hillary (the bitch) was given charge of “coordinating” a health plan for her husband.

    The single payer plan was then the work of the late Sen. Paul Wellstone and was shut out of consideration then as well in a different setting..

    The Blessed of Hussein is screwing you all over by not ordering the fucks on the Senate Finance Committee to at least hear out the single-payer concept.

    Putting the screws to the Jews – putting the screw to yous. It’s all the same in this administration…. For the Blessed of Hussein, it’s screwing people over that matters – nothing else.

  • Bliffle

    I’m afraid that this article is accurate.

    With the proceedings in the FINANCE committee it is clear that the Healthcare ‘industry’only has financial importance.

    With the forceful exclusion of advocates for Single-payer it is clear that brutal police-state methods are justified to suppress opposing views.

    There seems to be no limit to the extent to which the insurance companies will go. As we see, they control the political discussion and can call out the police, at will, to suppress the uncomfortable truth.

    Now we have the specter of MANDATED HEALTH INSURANCE being proposed. Every USA citizen would be obligated from birth to purchase health insurance. In other words, every person would be born into Involuntary Indentured Servitude. There is another word for this: SLAVERY.

    So the lust for easy profits will have brought the USA full circle to the kind of oppression that The Founders fought against.

    As a minor point, is it ‘genocide’ that we allow thousands of US Citizens to die every year for lack of medical attention? Have these people simply become of no use to our Glorious System when they can no longer contribute wealth to the treasuries of the Insurance Companies?

    We already spend 18% of our GDP on healthcare, the highest in the world, and now I read a report that says that will rise to 34% by 2040.

    Are we mad? Are we insane?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Bliffle, Are we mad? Are we insane? Clearly the answer is “yes;” if we weren’t crazy, we would all go insane.

    The good news, I suppose, is that President Obama has decreed that his health care program be enacted before much else gets done. For a while, at least, the Republic may be safe.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    For a while, at least, the Republic may be safe.

    Quick! Somebody start a filibuster!

  • Jeannie Danna

    I feel a liberal article coming on…:)

    (So the lust for easy profits will have brought the USA full circle to the kind of oppression that The Founders fought against.)

  • Clavos

    Customer overheard in PRC dry cleaners:

    Oh, press my pants!

    I’m here all — never mind…

  • Doug Hunter

    “In other words, every person would be born into Involuntary Indentured Servitude. There is another word for this: SLAVERY.”

    I hope one day your eyes will be opened to the fact that it’s the government, not business, who is enslaving you. Business has never made me buy anything or forced me to pay anything or told me what I could do with what I did purchase or told me how I should or should not live my life. Government has done all these many times over.

  • Doug Hunter

    Nevermind my previous post, you have no interest in ending slavery but expanding it. Socialism, whether you think the ends justify the means or not, is slavery. It’s the enslavement of the workers and thinkers in order to subsidize those that do neither.

  • Bliffle

    You’re a fool, Doug. I’m not in favor of socialism, neither the communist kind or the kind being foisted on us by fake republicans with unnecessary wars 10,000 miles away, or monopolies so powerful that they can propose these mandates.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeannie,

    Did you know you can put videos in your article?

    Here is the video of the protest at the Senate Finance Committee meeting.

    What does the government say when you want your voice heard? We need more police.

    “No Government is Good Government.”

  • Doug Hunter

    If you’re going to go around shouting words like slavery and genocide be prepared to defend them. A question for you: If once we ration based on availability instead of income our survival rates for cancer and heart attacks drop to that of other systems like those in Europe and Canada (20% higher mortality for common cancers) will the deaths of those people constitute genocide? When we necessarily cut our medical research budget to secure every available dollar for handing out care will the thousands of medical innovations that aren’t realized factor into the equation?

    I looked up the stats for another comment:

    Medical Nobel Prizes (10 year period)
    US born 12
    Foreign working in US 3
    All others 7

    Medical Research Expenditures
    US (all sources) 98 B
    US government 35 B
    EU Govts (combined) 8 B

    The rest of the world lets the US shoulder the lion’s share of R&D so they can then just copy or spend their money on universal health care.

    That research and that innovation and all the lives it saves every year is what we risk losing by wholesale change in our system. That’s the ‘silent’ genocide we risk by changing a system that has served the entire world well.

  • Jordan Richardson

    When we necessarily cut our medical research budget to secure every available dollar for handing out care will the thousands of medical innovations that aren’t realized factor into the equation?

    You were challenged on this assertion the last time you brought it up and you didn’t respond. I guess I have to do it again.

    The system America has now is far, far more expensive than any proposed universal health care system run by any other country with UHC on earth. That means you save money with health care, Doug. That means you have more “available dollars” to spend on R&D and you continue to lead the world in that area.

    By having a cheaper, more efficient system, how do you figure you lose any money from medical innovations? There’s no such thing as “necessarily” cutting your medical research budget, that’s a total fabrication brought up on your behalf.

    Look, I get that people like you fear change no matter what it looks like. But change isn’t always bad and it doesn’t always involve the results you think it does. Had you done more complete research, you’d discover that there are countless possible angles for UHC plans that cost less and run more efficiently.

    With a system that uses information technology to handle records and streamline the system details alongside basic health care for all, you’re going to save money. There will be less money tied up in all the red tape of figuring out insurance (most of America’s health-care spending is administrative, btw) and less fiddling around with various companies to figure out which one is compatible.

    One more thing:

    If once we ration based on availability instead of income our survival rates for cancer and heart attacks drop to that of other systems like those in Europe and Canada (20% higher mortality for common cancers) will the deaths of those people constitute genocide?

    Canada does have a higher life expectancy by over two years, while America has a higher infant mortality rate. Canada also shows lower rates of cancer overall because we have more access to preventative care and tend to catch cases of cancer earlier.

    But that’s possibly related to the fact that America just has higher rates of obesity and diseases to begin with, again partially due to a lack of access to care and health programs.

    By the way, you can pretty much find studies on both sides of the border that will suggest our differences in health are insignificant. Health Canada and the Canadian Cancer Society recently revealed that our cancer mortality rates are about the same. So really, the deeper you get into statistical comparison the more you find that there are, in fact, less differences than originally thought.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I agree the bliffle that a state mandated system of forced insurance is a terrible solution to this problem. But at the same time, Jeannie’s single payer system is unacceptable to the American people who want some semblance of choice and control over their health care.

    In a nutshell this is why we haven’t had a national healthcare system up to this point, and I don’t see the problem going away.

    Despite Jeannie’s long list there are really only two issues here.

    1. The number of uninsured.
    2. The high cost of services and thus insurance.

    We need a more modest and pragmatic approach which addresses these two specific problems without degrading the quality of healthcare which, as Doug points out, is far higher than in most nations with socialized medicine.

    My proposal for problem 1 would be a system of gap insurance which would extend medicaid coverage to those who are not insured but could theoretically afford insurance, recouping some of the cost of their care from their earnings after the fact.

    For the second problem we need close oversight and regulation from outside of the medical establishment and the government medical bureaucracy. I envision something like citizen review boards, though I wish I could think of a free market solution.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Jordan, I previously pointed out to you the extensive statistics from Canadian government studies showing how dramatically worse wait times are in Canada, which is a matter of life and death in many cases. Also provided data on the hundreds of cases brought to the US from Canada because they cannot be teated effectively there. But still you persist in claiming the systems are at all comparable?

    Dave

  • Jeannie Danna

    What Jordan said-(Look, I get that people like you fear change no matter what it looks like. But change isn’t always bad and it doesn’t always involve the results you think it does. Had you done more complete research, you’d discover that there are countless possible angles for UHC plans that cost less and run more efficiently.)
    Doug #7
    (Business has never made me buy anything or forced me to pay anything or told me what I could do with what I did purchase or told
    me how I should or should not live my life.)
    Your wrong here because we have allowed corporate America to dictate our values to us for way too long. I don’t need a whole lot of money, a big fancy car and the latest potion or lotion to make me feel alive. You know what pisses me off the most? Corporate America took all the bling from the 70’s, my generation, and sold it to my kids! but they left all the good stuff behind like the peace, the love, the sharing and all the things that made us so good. Ask most people what they remember about the 70’s and you will hear “the drugs.” It was the demonization of an entire generation because they couldn’t make any MONEY from the ideals of it! The 70’s if we had allowed it could have brought us to a whole new level. Well maybe I’m wrong..:(

    Cindy, There is a video in my article. Did you click on Baucus 13? This is when Dr. Flowers was on The Ed Show :)

    Ruvy, Mellow out and stop referring to President Obama as “whatever it is your calling him” I pictured you as a nice man with a sweet wife named Adena and now I’m not so sure.

    Dave, Stop with the statistics and go with your family on vacation to Canada. Once there you can interview real live Canadians and see that Jordan is not lying to you.

    Biffle, Thanks for not beating me up too bad. I am not a socialist….yet

    Clavos, Thanks for editing my piece here. I am trying to write correctly right now but without grammar check it’s hard for me to see my mistakes. Next article should be about dyslexia…:)

    Well one more thing folks as we fight and argue over HR676. Please call your Senators and Representatives today and tell them to pass it!…:)

  • Arch Conservative

    I know that articles can be designated as “opinion” or “satire” but this one should have been filed under propaganda.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Archie. I think she believes in what she’s saying no less so than you believe in whatever it is that you post. I don’t think any of us ever questioned your sincerity. So unless you have evidence that Jeannie is getting paid for this article, it is her opinion – though you strongly disagree.

  • Arch Conservative

    Yes but what she’s saying is absolute horseshit Roger.

    First of all…that 47 million uninsured number is thrown out quite a bit but what it doesn’t take into account is that a chunk of those are actually young people who choose not to have health insurance even though they could because they’re in good health and don’t feel it’s worth it. Also thrown into that 47 million is roughly 12 million who are here illegally and should not be receiving any type of welfare that’s subsidized by legal citizens.

    Second…medicare and medicaid are already run by the government and they’re not doing so great. Any type of government management of the payment or delivery of healthcare will necessarily increase taxes while reducing the quality of healthcare. If the government gets involved we will have the rationing of healthcare. Just look at Britian. Anyone in their sixties in Britian is refused most major procedures or costly treatments because they are too old to be deemed worth the cost. Is that what we want?

    Jeanie is just another shill for big government. She talks a good game about the evils of big business but her only answer to our problems is more government. My guess is that she, like all zealous advocates of big brother, is that she cannot make her own way in the world so she must, despite all the evidence, rely on false prophets like Barry Hussein Obama.

    After spending a few trillion dollars what have we to show for it? Mortgage rates are climbing, unemployment has continues to rise, inflation is just around the next bend and we’re still getting articles on here and other praise is the MSM about how insightful King Barry is. It’s nothing short of pathetic.

    But I’m sure Jeannie and her ilk will have some pretty clever (not really) responses about how it’s all Bush’s fault. If they’re feeling really froggy they may even manage to throw in an Enron reference along the way.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Jeannie’s single payer system is unacceptable to the American people who want some semblance of choice and control over their health care.”

    That’s a lame excuse, Dave. Which people, again? The rich, who can afford the best medical care possible? I do hope you realize how vacuous your proposition is.

    And why shouldn’t the rich be able to continue to get the best medical care possible so long as they pay for it. Anything wrong with a two-tier system? And does a single-payer system preclude this possibility? I don’t see why it must be so.

    So let’s put the blame where the blame is: the powerful insurance and pharmaceutical lobbies; it is they who stand everything to lose, not the American people.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Honestly, this just gets tiring after a while.

    Dave,

    We’ve been through the wait time conversation a half dozen times. We’re not going to have it again. I’ve discussed the problems with wait times countless times with you and why they exist, to what degree they exist, and so forth. You know this.

    which is a matter of life and death in many cases

    To this particular point you provide no evidence and never have. I asked specifically for evidence and you told me that it would take you too much time to research it. What exactly is the point in making claims like this and suggesting that the Canadian system costs lives or puts people in life or death decisions if you can’t provide evidence for it? This is the same argument as your lame duck “the Review Board decides cases of life or death.” That argument failed because it wasn’t factual; this one also fails because you refuse to provide evidence. Incidentally, while you’re researching the facts about deaths via wait time in Canada, research deaths via wait time in the United States. You might be surprised.

    Also provided data on the hundreds of cases brought to the US from Canada because they cannot be teated effectively there.

    Yes, Dave. I’m aware that this is what you think you did. I’m also aware that you ignored any refute and any evidence to the contrary. When asked about your “hundreds of emergency vehicles heading to the States a day” crap, you had no evidence to back it up. You referred me to an old article and then claimed that your points still stood, despite the fact that they were largely refuted. You then denied that anything was refuted at all. And on it goes…

    But still you persist in claiming the systems are at all comparable?

    My comparisons, based on studies from both Canadian and American doctors, were the following:

    – that Canada has a higher life expectancy by over two years

    – that America has a higher infant mortality rate

    – Canada has less cases of cancer overall

    – Canada and America have comparable cancer mortality rates

    – statistically compared, the Canadian and American health care systems are less different in terms of results

    You’re welcome to refute any of those statements. I’ll provide sources and contributing evidence if you like, too.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Roger, the interesting thing about opposition to any form of UHC in America is that any form adopted by America is automatically comparable to the Canadian system or the British system or whatever. It’s as though any UHC system adopted in America just flat-out wouldn’t work or would have to be exactly like another system in the world that, horror of horrors, has flaws.

    America, with its great spirit of invention, apparently cannot provide a workable health care system that is cost-effective and efficient in providing care for all of its citizens. This is what Dave and Co. would have us believe. It is not possible to comprise a workable system that accomplishes the aforementioned goals.

    The truth isn’t that, however. The truth is as you say: too many rich fuckers have too fucking much to fucking lose. Honestly, that’s the real piss-off here and that’s what’s holding people back from getting basic health care in America.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Anyone in their sixties in Britian is refused most major procedures or costly treatments because they are too old to be deemed worth the cost. Is that what we want?”

    But that’s the case even here, in the US. It’s called “triage,” which prioritizes patients according to the probability of success. Unless, of course, you’re willing to pay through the nose.

    You do know, Archie, don’t you? that the last year or two of a person’s life are more expensive (in an effort to keep them alive) than perhaps all the moneys they had paid to the insurance companies throughout their lifetime. Not the mention the costs incurred in keeping them vegetating in nursing homes. Within a couple of years, all their net worth is as good as gone – to include whatever real estate, home, or other assets they may have had.

    I think it’s ridiculous that the fruits of the person’s life – all the moneys they made while working and being productive members of society – should be gone with a couple of years of incurring a major sickness or simply to keep them on vegetating.

    I thinks there’s something very wrong with this picture.

  • Jordan Richardson

    who choose not to have health insurance even though they could because they’re in good health and don’t feel it’s worth it

    Yep. They choose not to have health care because they have choices to make. Health care should not be a choice, one should not have to pick between health care or rent or fucking food on the table. Not in a civilized world.

    Somewhat in line with this, go check out how many bankruptcy cases in the US are related closely with health care costs. Hint: it’s well over 60%.

    thrown into that 47 million is roughly 12 million who are here illegally

    Wrong.

    Any type of government management of the payment or delivery of healthcare will necessarily increase taxes while reducing the quality of healthcare

    Wrong. You can’t say “any” type of government management would suck because you don’t know that for sure. Why is it such a foul idea to come up with a workable option that provides health care? Poach parts of the Swiss and French systems, for instance, and create a viable option for America’s economic system. It would almost be cheaper by default, too, because the administrative costs to run the current bloated Medicare and Medicaid systems are immense and obscene. Add to that the costs to do the paperwork with all of the various insurance companies and it’s no small wonder the large majority of health care costs in America wind up covering administration. Cut down on that and you’ve already solved half the fucking battle.

    Anyone in their sixties in Britian is refused most major procedures or costly treatments because they are too old to be deemed worth the cost. Is that what we want?

    Even if this were true, what’s the difference between being refused by the government and having an insurance company wiggle out of paying every time out of the gate? Insurance companies operate on the function of NOT PAYING. That’s how they make money, that’s how they post ridiculous profits while the rest of you bloody fools have to pick between insuring yourself or paying the electric bill. Is that what you want? Apparently so.

    My guess is that she, like all zealous advocates of big brother, is that she cannot make her own way in the world so she must, despite all the evidence, rely on false prophets like Barry Hussein Obama.

    It must be extremely comforting, Archie, to be able to fundamentally reduce other people to bland, outdated ideologies. You do know that Archie Bunker was meant as parody, right?

    After spending a few trillion dollars what have we to show for it?

    You mean the economy doesn’t just change overnight when you’re deep in a hole? There’s no magic solution? My fucking Christ, Arch, must be King Barry’s fault!

    It’s nothing short of pathetic.

    What’s pathetic is your continued playing of the same fucking cards, dude. Everything is reduced to left/right bullshit and this sudden desire to plant your lips around Romney’s Mormon whatnot. Fine. Whatever. Just don’t accuse others of being pathetic when you’re leading the parade, amigo.

    Jeannie and her ilk will have some pretty clever (not really) responses about how it’s all Bush’s fault.

    Explain how your “it’s all King Barry’s fault” shit is any different?

  • Doug Hunter

    Jordan,

    I did not read the response before. On a state by state basis life expectancy varies a bit from in line or above Canada/Europe average to obviously even lower than the US average. It seems wealthier states do better and those with lower African American and immigrant populations who on average have lower life expectancy.

    Alot of the lower amount can likely be linked to higher obesity and our ethnic diversity. Fat people die younger and fat women have premature births which also skew the infant mortality.

    Anyway, I didn’t chime in until people started referring to things like genocide and slavery. My point was if it’s ‘slavery’ to be forced to pay for your own healthcare then it’s ‘slavery’ to be forced to pay taxes to pay for your own healthcare.

    As for genocide, the people who don’t have care are not the only ones affected by the change in system (although they draw the most emotional appeal), people who have insurance now are treated to some of the best care in the world and our high costs, in addition to their waste, have funded lots of medical breakthroughs and improved technology which directly affects patient outlooks.

    There are tons of reasons to think that some form of universal coverage could be done here and I’d like to see one of them brought to bear. First, we need to make sure we don’t stop the march of progress and relinquish our leadership role in many areas of medicine. Second, we need to make sure we don’t just shift the rationing from that based on income to some other quality (we need to make sure quality of service doesn’t decrease for those already covered). We also need to make sure our timing is proper with very high unemployment already and a $1.8 trillion debt it’s hard to imagine that sending a bunch of insurance workers to the pool and increasing the out of control debt even farther could be a good thing.

    I don’t hear people addressing that, all I hear is emotional appeals and an almost unrelenting focus on the uninsured as if that is the only aspect of any significance in the entire realm of healthcare.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “First, we need to make sure we don’t stop the march of progress and relinquish our leadership role in many areas of medicine.”

    I wouldn’t worry about that, Doug. Why should the profit motive entirely disappear with UHC? And so is the case with American ingenuity. We’re still in the lead when it comes to technological advances of any kind. You surely believe that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And BTW. This I take it to be the high point of Jordan’s #25:

    “Health care should not be a choice, one should not have to pick between health care or rent or fucking food on the table. Not in a civilized world.”

    Do you see anything wrong with that?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Arch propaganda-(First of all…that 47 million uninsured number is thrown out quite a bit but what it doesn’t take into account is that a chunk of those are actually young people who choose not to have health insurance even though they could because they’re in good health and don’t feel it’s worth it. Also thrown into that 47 million is roughly 12 million who are here illegally and should not be receiving any type of welfare that’s subsidized by legal citizens.)
    Do you actually read an article before you attempt to tear it all to shreds? Please re-read and click on links Arch. Then we’ll talk…:)
    This article is actually about the fact that there are two major industries in this country keeping our health care system dysfunctional through bribery.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Is this from Fox News?-(Anyone in their sixties in Britian is refused most major procedures or costly treatments because they are too old to be deemed worth the cost. Is that what we want?)

    PROVE this statement! show me a link…:)

  • Jeannie Danna

    What I quoted-(The US National Health Insurance act would assure universal coverage of all medically necessary services, contain costs by slashing bureaucracy, protect doctor patient relationship, assure patients a completely free choice of doctors and allow doctors a free choice of practice settings.)
    That’s right Roger, the wealthy have perfectly fine health care. They also control who receives a medical degree in this country so they can go visit their children! sorry :( I couldn’t resist that one.
    One more point on this response. What do Charles Manson and Senator Baucus have in common? They both have the same health care. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I certainly hope so!

  • Doug Hunter

    ‘”Health care should not be a choice, one should not have to pick between health care or rent or fucking food on the table. Not in a civilized world.”
    Do you see anything wrong with that? ‘

    It does seem like such a moral truism in our current context, but the context obfuscates the central issues. In simpler terms if the world consisted of you and me and I decided I didn’t want to want to work in the garden or help with the food or exchange you anything of value for it, should you be forced to work twice as hard for the rest of your life to do it for me?

    The answer might very well be yes, but there is a distinct tradeoff. Food and healthcare don’t just magically appear, someone is working their ass off to make it happen. Because our society is large and our services big and complex does not make that simple fact any less true.

  • Doug Hunter

    Jeannie, I’m not sure how to put a link up but a search for NHS healthcare rationing by age will bring up plenty of resources on the subject. Here is a quote from someone defending the system:

    “This attempt to wring the last drop of medical benefit out of the system, no matter what the human and material costs, is not the hallmark of a humane society. In each of our lives there has to come a time when we accept the inevitability of death, and when we also accept that a reasonable limit has to be set on the demands we can properly make on our fellow citizens in order to keep us going a bit longer.”

    This sounds fine and dandy until it’s one of your parents who is deemed not worthy of ‘going a bit longer’. That’s one of my concerns with any potential system, that we maintain the high level of care the responsible people in the US already have access to. You mentioned 47 million uninsured being roughly 15% of the population. Does the Universal plan include options to increase the number of doctors by 15%? The number of hospitals? The number of high tech imaging machines, etc?

    If not, are we just simply going to shift the rationing to some other factor (like age) or who can survive longest on the waiting list?

  • Jeannie Danna

    #32 What the hell is your point? (‘”Health care should not be a choice, one should not have to pick between health care or rent or fucking food on the table. Not in a civilized world.”) No, you shouldn’t have to choose! What is your occupation? I’m not trying to pry but I would be able to discern why you are so pissed off here if you told me that you worked for the big pharma or the insurance industry.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No, he doesn’t, Jeannie. Don’t be mean.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Doug, It is too bad that you did not read the essay I wrote for my mother after living in long term intensive care with her for a little over a year. I am grateful for having her come back out of unconsciousness long enough to tell her just how much I loved her and what an important part of my life she was. The bigger fact of my mother’s operation was that they did it for profit and not out of any real concern for her. Once she went into long term maintenance they realized they would be at the losing end of the stick. I don’t want that kind of game played for someone’s 401k!
    This might sound callus to you but my mom should have stayed home in the loving care of her family until the end…

  • Jeannie Danna

    Doug, Can I point out that the number of students in medical schools has been tampered down for years in this country. No offense to doctors from overseas but I only have three doctors at the VA in Buffalo that are American. Then, take a good look at the school system in this country. The colleges are flooded with kids studying to be teachers; after they graduate they have to fight each other to work for a low paying profession that requires them to have a master’s degree!

  • Doug Hunter

    Jeannie, I’m certain that would be an interesting read and you probably are correct(and would know best) what would have been best in that situation. My mother had ovarian cancer in her late 30’s. It was caught at late stage 3 and any delay in waiting for anything would have greatly hurt her chances of survival. Somebody will die under the new system that would not have under our current one, and vice versa. That is inevitable.

    Believe it or not I think that there is probably a way we can institute universal coverage to the benefit of our system and I would support that. The point of my #32 and my questions regarding Universal care is not to say I know those are bad ideas, but to point out that we need to rationally address the tradeoffs, not just rely on emotional appeals. There is more to healthcare than the uninsured. I listed my major concerns earlier in the comment thread, if those are addressed I’d be happy to see universal healthcare enacted.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Doug,

    I am going to respond to your #32 in full. You do raise an interesting question, which in turn, requires a measured response. That’s why give me a little time, so I can deal with it properly.
    Later.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeannie,

    I didn’t mean a link to a video. I meant the video itself. You know, like Dave did with his poolside chat.

    You can take a video from youtube (or elsewhere) and put it into your article. Just so you know that. If you ever want to do that I’d be happy to help you.

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, cool! yes…:) I hope you don’t mind my multiple answer in the thread this morning. I sort of “smooshed” everyone together in that one. I swear I want to write tamer articles but I love this debate! It is important to fight for what I really believe in. HR676…:)

  • Jeannie Danna

    I agree with Doug!-(Food and health care don’t just magically appear, someone is working their ass off to make it happen. Because our society is large and our services big and complex does not make that simple fact any less true.)
    This is why we need a government that recognizes all of its citizens! I can’t understand people saying we need to abolish our social programs. Whether people deserve food or health care is not up to us. If we truly are a human society then we will do what “Christ” said or what other “profits” have said. “care for one another. Of course if you are an atheist then I hope you say it!…:)

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    You do realize that the form from moveon which you linked (in #41) is for a very different proposal than HR 676, don’t you? The moveon petition is advocating a “mixed” system, with both government and private insurance, while HR 676 eliminates private insurance altogether — even for those willing and able to pay for it, which is one of my principal objections to HR 676.

    Cost is another. Based on my experience with Medicare (and BTW the alternate name for HR 676 is the “Expanded Medicare for All” bill), I think the optimistic projections of cost provided by the bill’s supporters are grossly underestimated, probably deliberately so.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t be stealing my punchlines, Jeannie. But you are more or less on the right track. I’m going to try to make a tighter argument, though, after an hour’s nap or so.
    Later.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos,

    Yes this petition was from my e-mail. I am always trying to please…;) so I figured what the hell…sign the thing If it floats your boat!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Medicare for all would be better than the monster we have right now.

  • Clavos

    Medicare for all would be better than the monster we have right now.

    Based on my direct four years’ experience with Medicare, that statement will only be true for those currently uninsured and without other resources; it will not be good for patients, it will not be good for physicians (PNHP notwithstanding — they are not representative of the great majority of physicians), it will not be good for hospitals, and because the government will use its power as a single payer to radically cut fees and prices, it will almost probably eradicate R & D, particularly by the pharmas, who are the only entity currently doing serious research in medical chemistry and pharmaceuticals.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    Did you address the objection to the bill (as stated in #44), concerning the elimination of private insurance altogether? I’d like to hear your thoughts on that.

  • Jeannie Danna

    My brother visited us yesterday. He is self-employed and his premium just jumped sky high and so far he has not used it once! He is making himself sick just worrying about what will happen if he uses it. So I have to ask why should you pay any premium at all?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And he can’t use the credits for “services not rendered,” can he now?

    Guess who pocketed the money? But to some, it’s a million-dollar question.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos,
    I don’t believe R & D is being carried out as aggressively as it would be if we had health care based on prevention instead of maintenance like the for-profit model we have now.
    (because the government will use its power as a single payer to radically cut fees and prices, it will almost probably eradicate R & D, particularly by the pharmas, who are the only entity currently doing serious research in medical chemistry and pharmaceuticals.)

  • Clavos

    So I have to ask why should you pay any premium at all?

    Please, Jeannie, don’t be naive. The government’s only source of money is us, the taxpayers. One way or another, we will all still be “paying premiums.”

    And while we’re still on the subject of costs, keep this in mind:

    Our government has been known to pay $600 for a ten dollar hammer. And they paid $5000 for my wife’s $2500 wheelchair.

  • Clavos

    @ #52:

    You say:

    I don’t believe R & D is being carried out as aggressively as it would be if we had health care based on prevention instead of maintenance like the for-profit model we have now.

    That doesn’t make any sense; R & D is based first, last, and always on money. Without money, there is no R &D, and without a possibility of a future profit from it, there’s no money. The US conducts far more R & D than any of the UHC countries, because it provides an incentive for the expenditure, which is massive.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Here is a funny story that is NOT funny.

    The first time I made chicken soup for Rick I made it like my grandma used to make it. We sat down at the kitchen table in my little apartment to eat. Just as Rick was taking his first spoonful I said “Watch out for the bones.”
    At the hospital emergency room after three hours and x rays the doctor determined that he had scratched his throat and probably it would “pass.”
    He had never used his insurance before and hasn’t used it since yet he pays over 1,000 a month for a family plan.
    I never leave bones in soup anymore…:(

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos, What kind of health care do YOU want?
    I can’t make my letters bold or fancy yet.
    (I don’t believe R & D is being carried out as aggressively as it would be if we had health care based on prevention instead of maintenance like the for-profit model we have now.)

    That answer made perfict sense to me. If we ever got our S____! together in this country we would spend money on R & D of all kinds of things like stem cell research, cancer, aids, you name it. What do we spend money on now? The industrial military complex! Am I correct?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Damn! I have to leave for a couple of hours but I’ll be back.
    Hold that thought…:)

  • STM

    Rog: “Anyone in their sixties in Britian is refused most major procedures or costly treatments because they are too old to be deemed worth the cost. Is that what we want?”

    Lol. That is absolute fucking bollocks. Anyone who’s alive and kicking gets the same go as everyone else … especially after all those years of paying taxes.

    Quick, Doc, back me up on this one … the Yanks are makin’ shit up again and projecting the failings of their own medical system on to unsuspecting Poms.

    I’m here doing your dirty work.

    BTW, good Doc, it’s the end of the three-day Queen’s Birthday long weekend here.

    You guys don’t even celebrate that in the Old Dart, do you?

    Probably best, though, as everyone knows that too much celebrating is bad for old-aged pensioners and near retirees who then might not be able to get medical treatment if they come too close to carking it.

  • Bliffle

    #46 Clavos claims:

    “Based on my direct four years’ experience with Medicare, that statement will only be true for those currently uninsured and without other resources;”

    Based on MY experience medicare is as good as any service I’ve had under the numerous insurance company policies I’ve had.

    ” it will not be good for patients,…”

    Why not? Seems good to me.

    “… it will not be good for physicians…”

    Why not?

    “… (PNHP notwithstanding — they are not representative of the great majority of physicians),”

    Sez who?

    “… it will not be good for hospitals,…”

    Hospitals are already in trouble, largely because of cream skimming by the owners through holding companies.

    “… and because the government will use its power as a single payer to radically cut fees and prices,…”

    As it should, to counteract the exorbitant fees charged by monopolies.

    “… it will almost probably eradicate R & D, particularly by the pharmas, …”

    Most R&D is ALREADY done by public agencies. The pharmas just get in on the marketing.

    “…who are the only entity currently doing serious research in medical chemistry and pharmaceuticals.”

    the pharmas spend 3 times as much money on advertising/marketing as they do on research. And most of their research is to develop patentable differentiations from existing products so that they can demand outrageous prices for common medicines through their monopolies.

  • Bliffle

    The insurance companies should be reduced to bookkeepers for the single payer system, and should have NO policy function. They should derive their profit from competing for bookkeeping contracts vs. their employee, etc., costs, NOT from denying service and condemning people to death and ruin!

  • Doug Hunter

    “Most R&D is ALREADY done by public agencies.”

    Total NIH expenditure on all medical research: $25B

    Pharmaceutical expenditure on drugs R&D as measured by government $38B

    As measured by themselves (includes US companies overseas research facilities): $49B

    It’s difficult to have any meaningful discussion with people that have zero regard for looking at reality. They’ve got their emotions going on the inhumanity of rationing care by income or choice to pay for insurance and anyone that disagrees is part of an evil conspiracy to deny healthcare.

    It really turns me off of this issue when you can’t even have a realistic discussion of the tradeoffs because in fantasyland they don’t exist. Perhaps as J stated earlier we should hope for a system where ‘no one pays a premium’, and healthcare will just magically appear when and where we need it.

  • Clavos

    Based on MY experience medicare is as good as any service I’ve had under the numerous insurance company policies I’ve had.

    Insurance policies vary widely: HMOs are decidedly inferior (and much cheaper) to PPOs. With the exception of copays, my wife’s Medicare coverage is inferior to what I have with my PPO, especially in terms of prescriptions, which in my wife’s case, exceed $5,000 a month.

    ” it will not be good for patients,…”

    Why not? Seems good to me.

    See above, and remember that I did qualify my analysis by noting those currently uninsured will benefit those of us with adequate private insurance will not, and will likely experience a decrease in the availability and quality from our current levels of medical care. All of us will lose, particularly with respect to end-of-life care, as only hospice services will be available.

    “… it will not be good for physicians…”

    Why not?

    Ask physicians. Medicare payments to physicians are less than private insurance payments for the same services, to the extent that Primary Care Physicians (PCPs — “family” doctors) who actually have the time to adequately examine and treat their patients are becoming increasingly harder to find. Because of inadequate payment, PCPs must take on huge numbers of patients just to cover their office and personnel expenses. That translates into lesser care for the patients.

    “… (PNHP notwithstanding — they are not representative of the great majority of physicians),”

    Sez who?

    Say more physicians than those who support single-payer. But don’t take my word for it, google it.

    Hospitals are already in trouble, largely because of cream skimming by the owners through holding companies.

    Some are, true, and the marketplace has already begun to force badly-run hospitals out of business. Here in Miami, the standout hospital is a private, for profit one; it is superior to virtually all the others, both for-profit and non-profit, as well as government-run (the VA medical center, with which I also have multi-year experience, and which, by comparison with other VAMCs, is, according to the Department of VA, one of the best in their system.

    “… it will almost probably eradicate R & D, particularly by the pharmas, …”

    Most R&D is ALREADY done by public agencies.

    Prove that. Let’s see some linked data.

    the pharmas spend 3 times as much money on advertising/marketing as they do on research…

    Pharmas do spend more on marketing than on research, a circumstance inherent in competitive markets, but even so, they spend far more on research in their field than the public sector; and contrary to your assertion, most of it is in new product development, not “patentable differentiations from existing products,” those differentiations require little to no research, merely tweaking of the formula, even patenting an original formula’s “mirror,” which requires zero research.

  • Clavos

    The insurance companies should be reduced to bookkeepers for the single payer system

    A role which, rightfully, they will not accept, since they are not accounting firms. Instead, they will offer other kinds of insurance, and perhaps move offshore to friendlier markets.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Check your references, STM. I did not make that claim, only cited somebody else’s and retorted.
    Sorry!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #61: Good riddance.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Like I’ve told you all before, there’s a very easy way to get free health care in this country for you and your family for the rest of your life. It only costs YOU twenty years.

    Invest I say! Fucking freeloaders, you all want something for nothing. Get out of my pockets!!!!!!!!!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    It comes in a variety of choices too:

    USA
    USAF
    USN
    USMC
    USCG

    Pick a card, any card!

  • Clavos

    Already did, Andy, already did.

    One small correction: you can get the free medical care in far less than 20 years, I’ve got it after only two, but the price you pay is serious injury or illness or even both.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah Clav, I only did 19 years 4 months and 18 days and I still got mine!

    Funny how that number of days has stuck in my head and I’ve been off active duty for almost 13 years now.

    Thirteen years is easy to remember, I got a big dog right after I retired. A shephard/lab mix. He’s going deaf, or pretending to go deaf, he gets up and lays down a lot more slowly than he used to too. He can get up on my bed any more, it’s just to tall for him. Other than that, he’s doing very well for a 70 pound dog over 13 years old. Must be that holistic dog food with the glucosamine in it! Maybe I should try it! Probably have to if all you liberals get your way and pick my pockets clean!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    And Clavos – two or twenty two, it doesn’t matter, you did your time brother and that’s what counts! God bless you, if there is one…

  • Clavos

    70 pounds is a lotta dog, Andy. Who eats more, him or you?

    you did your time brother and that’s what counts! God bless you, if there is one…

    Right back atcha, bro…

    “All gave some, some gave all”

  • Doug Hunter

    If you’re clever and lacking morals you can also get labeled ‘bipolar’ and get free medical plus a monthly disability check for life. I’ve known people on this track I had my suspicions about, but who’s to judge another person’s mental health?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    He used to eat more, but I think I’ve got him beat since I quit smoking on April 1st!

    What’s really cool about him is he thinks he’s a lap dog!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Cigarettes…since I quit smoking cigarettes.

    Sorry, felt I had to clarify that!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Doug in comment 70 – You mean I could be double dipping???

  • Jeannie Danna

    What Bliffle Said!-The insurance companies should be reduced to bookkeepers for the single payer system, and should have NO policy function. They should derive their profit from competing for bookkeeping contracts vs. their employee, etc., costs, NOT from denying service and condemning people to death and ruin!

    Why should the insurer decide what treatment, test or procedure a patient is eligible for?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Personally, people who spend 20 years fiddling around in the promotion of and cooperation with criminal acts don’t get my vote for not being ‘freeloaders’.

  • Jeannie Danna

    I have my USAF card!

  • Jeannie Danna

    I’m not in anymore but I catch myself cupping my fingers and marching when I walk…it never goes away

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I have nothing but respect for these brave military people.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, Iraq was a war of choice and those solders are right to resist.
    But many people died or were injured in this country for all types of wars…The point is they did it for you.

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Jeannie Danna

    Darn…:(

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Funny, but I don’t recall promoting or participating in anything criminal while I was on active duty. Glad I only did 19 years 4 months and 18 days, that way I don’t fit into that category of people not getting any of Cindy’s votes…

    Yeah, I was a freeloader…funny how this freeloader was actually eligible for food stamps (I never took them)while on active duty…pretty fucking sad way to freeload if you ask me! Eligible for foodstamps with only one child, wonder how “good” I could have had it if I had more sooner than I did?

    And fuck you and anybody that thinks like you for saying it too! Freeload this!!! I’d add about 150 four letter words, but I figure it’s gonna get stepped on by the language police already anyway!

    Some of those folks on your link have legitimate gripes, some of them are the typical whiners that always play that buyers remorse game after they join the service, bootcamp was full of them.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Andy I have respect for you please don’t leave..:(

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come on, Andy. We’ve had enough fights. I’m certain she didn’t mean you personally. How could she?

    And we both know there are all kinds who join – for a variety of reasons. Iraq or Vietnam wasn’t exactly like World War II, we both know it. Some of those who opposed the last two wars do have a point of view.

  • Jeannie Danna

    That’s the point of all my writing. You can call me whatever name you like. I love the human race. The whole big ball of wax!!

  • Jeannie Danna

    I am going to hug the next conservative I see!

    Hope I don’t get arrested!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Even Archie? Just kidding!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan: Quick, Doc, back me up on this one … the Yanks are makin’ shit up again and projecting the failings of their own medical system on to unsuspecting Poms.

    Sure, Stan. It is, of course, as you say, absolute bollocks. Although it was actually Archie’s absolute bollocks and not Roger’s – he was actually just quoting the spittle-spewing one.

    The big issue with British healthcare is, and has always been, the waiting time for major and even life-saving procedures. The age of the patient isn’t really an issue: it’s just made to seem so by the media because the plight of some poor old dear who needs a new hip makes a far better story than a 30-year-old on dialysis.

    Happy belated Queen’s Birthday, anyway. Yes, I’ve always thought it a bit unfair that you get to celebrate it and we don’t. Perhaps we should take a leaf out of Australia’s book and start annoying the Seppos by celebrating Thomas Paine’s birthday. He was, after all, both British and outrageously smelly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Doc. I wouldn’t presume to know enough about the state British healthcare to make that claim one way or another.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’m not going anywhere Jeannie and I’m very fond of hugs…but alas, I’m a libertarian! I don’t think a cannabis-head can be a republican!

    Like I said Roger, some of those folks do have a point and some of them are suffering from buyers remorse. Trust me, when I was up at 2 in the morning looking for submarines I had a little a few times too. Whenever I missed one of my daughters birthdays I had a little buyers remorse. It’s one of the reasons I got out a little less than 8 months early. I was tired of it all. But I say again, it’s a volunteer military.

    But come on…does anyone that served their country for whatever reason and did so honorably deserve to be called a freeloader? I mean, I’ve called John Kerry a lot of things, but I NEVER called him a freeloader! And he’s about the only Vietnam vet I’ve ever heard of that I don’t like!

    Or should we reserve that title for the folks that want free health care?

    Cindy would actually be the third person that I’ve read a comment like that from in all the time I’ve been here at BC. The first was an extremely evil person that called herself mac diva, the second was a guy that went by, I think it was Curt at first, then MCH and then after they kicked him off here he came back as REMF. The bad part about the last guy was that he actually did time in the military! Actually, their comments might’ve been a little nastier, they said that people that went in the military did so because they couldn’t hack it on the outside.

    I wonder though…cindy seems to despise those of us that served, I wonder how she feels about the foreigners that serve in our military and get citizenship and shit like that for it? Talk about your free ride!

    Yeah, I know, I’m suppose to defend your right to talk shit, that’s why I served right? Funny, when I was in, I couldn’t talk shit. Now I can and that’s why I’m here!

    And ain’t it just too bad for some of you!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Andy, I don’t want free health care I think if we all would pay our taxes! We could swing it…I just read Jonathan Scanlan’s article “On Taxes And Public Ownership” Why is his comment thread empty!…wait I hear everybody tiptoeing away now…

  • Jeannie Danna

    # 87 ecspecailly Archie…he’s my nemesis

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, Stop with the statistics and go with your family on vacation to Canada. Once there you can interview real live Canadians and see that Jordan is not lying to you.

    I actually am going quite close to Canada next week and was considering visiting, but then I remembered that I need a current passport now and mine’s expired.

    But even here in the US I generally take statistics over anecdotal evidence, because the anecdotes can be skewed by all sorts of factors and the statistics — if done properly are at least relatively reliable.

    Of course, statistics are only as good as the source. For example, Jordan once again repeats his claim that Cancer rates are lower in the US than in Canada, again with no source. On the other hand, I looked the issue up, and found that in reality the US beats out Canada and all other western nations in the rate of revovery/cure for major forms of cancer. Overall the survival rate for women with cancer is 61% in the US vs. 58% in Canada and for men it’s 57% in the US vs. 53% in Canada.

    Dave

  • Jeannie Danna

    Dave,-(I actually am going quite close to Canada next week and was considering visiting, but then I remembered that I need a current passport now and mine’s expired.)
    stop by, I’ll make a big pot of coffee for us…:)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I think she’s just trying to get a hug out of you Dave!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “they said that people that went in the military did so because they couldn’t hack it on the outside.”

    Andy, we all used to say that of lifers, right in the barracks. Just shit talk, nothing more. Talking of citizenship, when I was drafted, I wasn’t even one. It was only after I’ve done my hitch and when was out – five years is the magic number – that I got one. One of the reasons, too, why I didn’t get to go to Nam – they wouldn’t give me security clearance. I just wanted adventure and combat duty pay.

    All I’m saying, really, lots of people feel that the recent conflicts weren’t absolutely necessary. It’s not exactly like we were defending our homeland. And so this anti-war thinking tends to lump everyone in the same category. Consequently, you’re no different than Bush, Rumsfeld, the Abu Ghraib interrogators, Lt. Calley. See what I mean?

  • Jeannie Danna

    I bet you really love math…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Dave,

    In that case, you had better visit Jordan for his homemade wine.

  • Jeannie Danna

    notice I didn’t say tea…:)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I said it too roger.

    That’s incredible to me…you were drafted and you weren’t even a citizen? I didn’t know they could do that!

    Hell, open those borders boys!!! We need to get those recruiting numbers up!

    Where ya’ from roger?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Andy, Congratulations your number 100!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Does that at least get me a hug?

  • Jeannie Danna
  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You’re nice and you lean a little to the left, okay maybe more than a little…but still, you get the point.

    Why can’t we all just get along?

    And I read your intro roger, I now know where you’re from. Still think it’s hosed that they could draft you and you weren’t even a citizen!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Already got it!

  • Jeannie Danna

    a cyber hug for my fellow soldier:)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    79 – Jeannie,

    I do not agree with you that those unfortunate soldiers who died or were wounded ‘did it for me’. I see that idea for what it is–a fabrication of a violent and dominating culture, the government of which has interests in preserving its power as such–that is whose interests are served–not mine, not any of the average people they use and dispose of to accomplish those interests. The interests of those who have power are served–that’s all.

    All wars are wars of personal choice. That an authority tells one to commit a criminal act doesn’t make it okay. Evil is something we choose to do or become…each of us as individuals. My gov’t made me do it is not an excuse to torture nor to kill.

    I have a great care for veterans interests. I do not hold animosity toward and actually sympathize with those who have been used in such a fashion. They have been paid very little, denied care, and treated abominably for the ‘luxury’ of having been lied to and used in one of the worst ways I can imagine.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    82 – Andy,

    Yeah, I was a freeloader…funny how this freeloader was actually eligible for food stamps (I never took them)while on active duty…pretty fucking sad way to freeload if you ask me! Eligible for foodstamps with only one child, wonder how “good” I could have had it if I had more sooner than I did?

    The idea that vets are paid very poorly is not lost on me (even worse during conscription). My uncle is a Vietnam vet I know what his pay was.

    I chose to use ‘freeloader’ in response to your allegation that the poor are ‘freeloaders’. Rather than resulting from laziness, poverty results from a rigged game where other people make the rules you have to play by. A society designed in an egalitarian way where everyone has a right to partake directly in the rules they live by, would likely result in less ‘freeloading’. When you have a chance to succeed in an evenhanded way, you are that much more likely to want to play by the ‘rules’. The amount of social welfare that goes to ‘freeloaders’ is greatly exaggerated by those who want to defend their preconceived notions about how things work. You can look at gov’t figures and ascertain this, if you like.

    Rather than accusing you of being overpaid, I was calling into question the belief system you take for granted–seemingly without question–about military participation and its nobility.

  • Jeannie Danna

    (Congress still hasn’t figured out how to pay for a health overhaul that could cost $1.2 trillion to $1.5 trillion or even more over a decade. Obama has put forward some ideas, including cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. Others he’s suggested, including limiting some tax deductions rich people can take, have already gotten shot down on Capitol Hill.)

    see

  • Clavos

    Roger,

    A security clearance wasn’t required for a tour in Nam — just a pulse.

    I just wanted adventure and combat duty

    Adventure, I got — sometimes more than I wanted. The pay? Base pay and combat pay together amounted IIRC, to about $450 a month. No sane person joins the military for the money.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Part of the deal, Andy. In those days we had quotas. And part of admission to US, you had to consent to a draft. No biggie.

  • Jeannie Danna

    The rich keep getting richer while the middle class is drying up and ready to blow away!!!

    But, I am some sort of “lefty commy” now that the Republicans are out of the White House. That’s really funny seeing that for the last eight years I was accused of not being PATREIOTIC ENOUGH!

    The games

  • Clavos

    Jeannie asks:

    “I just read Jonathan Scanlan’s article “On Taxes And Public Ownership” Why is his comment thread empty!”

    Most likely because it deals with taxation in Oz (though it discusses issues applicable to the USA as well), and we’re all Seppos — the most insular people in the Anglosphere…

  • Jeannie Danna

    I have to go make supper and Ed is on soon…:)

    bye bye

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was in the MPs, Clavos. So perhaps there were different requirements for the MOS. In fact, we have spent over a month in Ft. Hood prior transport, then accorded a thirty-day leave (which was customary then prior to an overseas tour of duty). That was in 66. When I got back to the base, I was told that I, along with two other fellows, a Frenchie and an Irish guy, neither a citizen yet, were denied clearance.

    To tell the truth, as much as gung-ho I was about going there, I felt relieved. Consequently, what remained of my tour of duty (with the exception of 3 short months in Germany) was in Southern France. It was like being in the Riviera.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    By the way, regarding conscription. If it worked it would be used. It’s what made the Vietnam war so unpopular to the masses. The Iraq war may be unpopular, but it doesn’t personally touch enough people to cause mass protest. Gov’t in any society want to avoid protest. In a free society they can’t simply shoot people for protesting (oh, wait…Ohio…they used to, never mind).

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos,

    Three little words

    taxes are taxes

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In those days, that was a lot of money. $80.00 a month was how much I was getting when drafted.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What I should have done, right after the military, to apply to CIA. I spoke two or three European languages then, including Russian and German, and only one year after from BA. Even now I wonder why I haven’t done it. Just never thought of it then.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Oh yes. Now I remember. Vietnam turned me around, Kent State in particular.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s why the Iraqi war drags on and on, because they eliminated the draft.

  • Clavos

    “…then accorded a thirty-day leave (which was customary then prior to an overseas tour of duty)…”

    I was sent over by LBJ, and was incountry in 1965 and 1966. Not only did we not get a thirty day leave, we went over on a troopship with no air conditioning, which was overloaded by a thousand troops (designed for 2500, carried 3500).

    $450 was less than half of what I was making when I got drafted in 1964, so to me it wasn’t much money. $80 was what I got at first, as an E-1, but I reached E-5 in Nam.

  • Doug Hunter

    “The idea that vets are paid very poorly is not lost on me (even worse during conscription).”

    Ideas of what people believe they deserve vary vastly with upbringing. I joined under the impression, thanks to my recruiter, that it would be easy to finish college while riding out my term. I always thought I was getting overpaid compared to what my responsibility actually was. We weren’t fightiing a war, had 30 paid days off plus holidays plus ‘comp’ days. We drank beer and played volleyball every friday (weather permitting) and there were no job security issues. We traveled 90-120 days per year with an extra $50-100/day per diem, food tax free, healthcare and dental full coverage free, and housing allowance tax free… plus a nice salary that beats most jobs you can step out of high school and into. Life is all about perspective.

  • Clavos

    @ #117:

    “taxes are taxes.”

    But not, as Jonathan makes crystal clear in his essay, how they are levied, and especially not how they are used.

    The Australian government is infinitely superior to ours in both those areas, and many more, too.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Clavos – perhaps that was just a matter of special logistics regarding the unit. Perhaps the orders weren’t drawn yet, so I did get my leave.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As a matter of fact, the GI benefits came in very handy for me. Even though I was fully matriculated and then on scholarships, the $450.00 some extra a month came in handy to cover all expenses, not to mention I was still fully employed. It practically paid the mortgage on the triplex in NYC – a ten-year term at that. So I cannot complain.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    123 – Doug,

    Ideas of what people believe they deserve vary vastly with upbringing.

    I would guess it might also have something to do with one’s experience. I imagine your tenure didn’t deal with the prospect of drawing straws to see which soldier would murder a live infant after a village was bombed. Involvement in such as the beach scene from Saving Private Ryan might give some a different perspective.

    (Doug, I have an reply for a comment you made in Roger’s thread, but it’s at home. I’ll put it there later.)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    25% of the homeless are vets. (some didn’t get as far as college tuition)

  • Jeannie Danna

    The Ed Show was great tonight!

    They showed the same bullet points from
    HR676 that are in my article!

    Call your Senators!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jordan –

    Google the list of countries ordered by life expectancy. The top twenty-seven countries ALL have some form of universal health care. America’s #30…right behind Jordan and Bosnia, respectively.

    Every modern industrialized democracy on the planet has UHC…except for America.

    Y’know, if the manager of a sports team refuses to do what the top twenty-seven teams in the league already do, he’d be fired.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos & Lisa, you two have created a Monster! :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why Lisa?

  • Jeannie Danna

    92% of the people answering Ed’s survey want Single-Payer Health Care

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos showed me bold and italic, Lisa showed me how to close it up!

    What happened to Health Care ?
    I turned my back for one hour and look what happens!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I see. Now with all the fonts and gimmicks at your disposal, you’re a force to reckon with.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here is a contrary opinion to the UHC, Jennie.

    Just for your info.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Na, I’m just in a good mood:)
    I think I better call it a night Roger.

    I’ll see you all tomorrow

  • Zedd

    Has there been a discussion on how a system which facilitates most of the strong positions and keeps some of the people in the insurance industry employed could work?

    I seem to remember Stan describing Australia’s system, which seemed really clever.

    What I do know is that Obama can’t propose this plan without increasing taxes for those below $250k. However, as long as its not more than the $5000 annually that I’m shelling out currently for the benefit of paying a $30 co-pay for a doctor to tell me something that I could have googled myself.

    I’ve reduced the carbs. I think I’m getting grumpy. Better walk away and say nite nite.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Same here, Zedd. I’ve had it for the day. Tomorrow.

  • Bliffle

    Glenn makes an excellent point:

    “Every modern industrialized democracy on the planet has UHC…except for America.

    Y’know, if the manager of a sports team refuses to do what the top twenty-seven teams in the league already do, he’d be fired.”

  • Clavos

    Yep, health care is just like baseball, alright.

    Trouble is, the USA team doesn’t have a manager.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos on health care-Trouble is, the USA team doesn’t have a manager.

    We would have National health care now if we didn’t have Conservatives/Republicans/Conservadems fighting HR676!

  • Jeannie Danna

    First intelligent repeated statement of the following day (“Every modern industrialized democracy on the planet has UHC…except for America.)
    Thanks Bliffle :)

  • Clavos

    We would have National health care now if we didn’t have Conservatives/Republicans/Conservadems fighting HR676!

    Check it out, Jeannie.

    Even the administration doesn’t want 676.

    They have their own ideas.

    And their plan is what we’ll get, eventually.

    Just like GM et al.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    We have friends here in Va with no insurance. They just had a baby and they managed to find a way to get into a free health care deal. She even managed to get into that free health care deal with that pre-existing (pregnancy) condition!

    I’ll see if I can’t find out more about it. I know they didn’t declare bankruptcy, not sure how to spell that word, and they have a healthy baby boy, she received pre and post-natal care too.

    So, it seems to me anyway, that in some areas of the country the govt is already providing health care…because the one thing I do know about this program is that it’s govt run.

  • Jeannie Danna

    I know Cavos :( I am very disappointed that big money still has the upper hand in this country even though it would actually be in their best interest to let HR676 pass!

    FOOLS!

  • Jeannie Danna

    I have VA health care and I am happy with it!
    I refused my husband’s insurance because I don’t trust these local doctors…

    That is a future essay!!!

    so I don’t understand why we are so afraid of not-for-profit HC

    Americans like the status quo

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    Why doesn’t “the government” want HR676 passed? Do you know?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Andy, I know you are talking about Virginia. We should not have to rely on state by state coverage since some states care for their people while others basically leave them flapping in the wind…SC,MO,TX and all the others you know who you are!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Same here. I was part of the VA system when in California. The only problem, they’re seriously underfunded. Only one cardiologist on hand, and only one day a week at that. So when I needed a stress test, I would have to wait over a month for the first available appointment.

    And then, because of a mix up, I missed it.

  • Jeannie Danna

    google it

  • Jeannie Danna

    The VA is not underfunded! in fact for the first time VA Health Care is included in the budget instead of begging each successive Congress for it
    Perhaps you missed you appointment? Even though they run with a clinic model there are always all disciplines available on a daily basis and on call 24/7

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was talking about the situation prior to the election. I have no idea as to the present.

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Jeannie Danna

    Click on #10 This shows what each group wants

  • Jeannie Danna

    Well, I must have driven you all away..:( bye

  • Jeannie Danna
  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks for posting it. This promises to be informative.

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Bliffle

    I read a report recently that said healthcare cost would rise to 34% of GDP by 2040.

    IF that’s true, then the whole US economy will be devoted to healthcare. We won’t be able to do anything else. All our efforts will go into providing healthcare for those fortunate enough to be included in. Of course, that won’t include the Americans who are shut out of the system.

    But it may be worse than that. If you compound the current 6% annual cost increase in US healthcare, in 20 years the burden will be much more than 34%.

    It’s a mad mad system.

    And we continue to allow the medical insurance monopoly to openly bribe government officials and legislators with so-called “campaign contributions”.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Bliffle, It is greed that motivates almost all of our elected and non-elected officials in Washington and across the country. We have the most dysfunctional and corrupt political system in our American history and
    we should all be demanding national health care right now instead of fighting it and each other..
    The defeat of any type of national health care will keep us at the mercy of the insurers and the big Pharmas with no end in sight Senator Grassley on Twitter!

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Jeannie Danna
  • Jeannie Danna

    I will not give up even if the rest of you have…:((Further, despite the fact that we spend almost twice as much per person on health care as any other country, our health care outcomes lag behind many other nations. We get poor value for what we spend. According to the World Health Organization the United States ranks 37th in terms of health system performance and we are far behind many other countries in terms of such important indices as infant mortality, life expectancy and preventable deaths.) BYE

  • Bliffle

    Jeannie,

    I’m with you. Besides all the other failures of Big Ins Cos., they will drag down US business. All of USA business will be burdened by this monster.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The uninsured represent less than half of the overall problem, too, as many insured United States health care consumers wind up being bilked out of coverage because of the legendary “pre-existing conditions” or other variables that allow insurance companies to keep profits high by squeezing out of covering health procedures.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jordan once again repeats his claim that Cancer rates are lower in the US than in Canada, again with no source.

    Dave, my claim relates to cancer incidence rates. I also mentioned I would provide a source if you’d like, so here it is: This is a geographical diversity atlas, called the Global Cancer Atlas. You can see that different incidents of cancer in men tend to be higher in the United States than Canada, although in women the cancer rates are damn near equal. You can also use the page to browse around to different atlases regarding cancer, revealing some interesting stuff regarding the types of cancer and where they are most prevalent.

    On the other hand, I looked the issue up, and found that in reality the US beats out Canada and all other western nations in the rate of revovery/cure for major forms of cancer.

    Yeah, I’m not sure why you’re arguing this. My point relates to incidents of cancer and goes on to note that there are numerous other variables, related to the overall health of our compared citizens, that contribute to this. Remember, this is in response to your notion that I somehow couldn’t compare the two health care systems. Yet here we are…

    In that case, you had better visit Jordan for his homemade wine.

    God no.

  • Clavos

    Here’s an interesting WSJ opinion piece discussing, among other things, a recent study which found wide regional variations in the quality of health care in the US. The article notes, in part:

    …technological change is the most important driver of health spending. Modern medicine can do so much more than it could in the past, but this costs a lot even as it has bought a lot in extending and improving lives. In a 2001 study, David Cutler (an Obama adviser) and Mark McClellan (a Bush adviser) found that the benefits of lower infant mortality and better treatment of heart attacks “have been sufficiently great that they alone are about equal to the entire cost increase for medical care over time.”

    No less an authority than [Budget Director Peter] Orszag admits that stomping out regional variation means constraining this experimentation. “Future increases in spending could be moderated if costly new medical services were adopted more selectively in the future than they have been in the past and if the diffusion of existing costly services was slowed,” Mr. Orszag told Congress last year, when he was CBO director. He was careful to note that “savings are possible without a substantial loss of clinical value,” but how does he know? Even if health planners in Washington could arbitrarily reduce spending in high-cost areas, low-value treatments may not be what go over the side. (emphasis added)

    An administration official already openly discussing rationing — before the serious planning even begins.

    When (not if) the government takes over health care, the bean counters — not the doctors — will decide who gets what and how much.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Clav,

    I’m booking a trip to Hollywood in December, if you are available maybe we can get together, I think you’d like my uncle Ed.

  • Jordan Richardson

    When (not if) the government takes over health care, the bean counters — not the doctors — will decide who gets what and how much.

    This is no different than government deciding which medical research gets funding and which medical research gets the shaft. It’s also just an echo of the most commonly used fear tactic against any sort of UHC plan.

    I know that Cynicism drives a bigger car than Hope and even Realism around here, but a public-funded health care plan only needs to rely on the “government” to provide a basic structure in which it can operate. There are “bean counters” at every level of the health care system already in place, from insurance groups to doctors seeking funding for treatments to nurses needing to ration medical treatments and supplies (along with experimental treatments) based upon the patient’s ability to pay for it.

    This notion that the United States would suddenly plunge into obscurity and dangerous health care standards because the public funds a UHC structure is just continued, repetitive nonsense designed to keep the population fearful that they’ll have no options, that they’ll be turned down for care, and that they’ll suddenly have shitty equipment like the public schools do. Amazingly, the public-funded military still gets to be as state-of-the-art as it gets while the American people get dumber and sicker.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I went through these comments, and I see that nobody has looked at health care for what it is as opposed to what it ought to be, and nobody has looked at why the research dollars go where they do with medicine, and why medicine is what it is, with doctors hustling pills without finding out the causes of disease.

    I can look at two societies (America and Israel) and they are very similar in their patterns theses days.

    1. Most people spend the largest amount of money on health care in the last few years of their lives. While this seems a no-brainer, it isn’t. In America and Israel both, health care is reactive, rather than preventive. This means the culture allows you – and even encourages you – to ignore your health until you can’t.

    I’m a perfect example. I ignored my health until I got a heart attack. And I’ve still ignored my health. I’m out of shape and probably on the road to another heart attack soon. But millions are like me. (Spare me the advice – I can tell you all what to do – my laziness is my on sin).

    Had serious money been invested in my youth to teaching me proper nutrition, I likely would not have a heart condition at all. That would shift the pattern of money spent, and shift the algorithms calculated for risk/expense for health insurance providers. Younger people would need to pay more.

    The medicines researched are the ones that respond to this reactive style of medicine – drugs for skin cancer, obesity, high blood pressure, sexual dysfunction, etc., etc. A different solution would be seeing to it that there was enough potable water, and teaching people to drink sufficient quantities of it – rather than watering the fuckin’ lawn with it!. This would prevent a lot of diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol, heart disease and arthritis, for beginners. Instead, doctors hustle a pill. What bullshit!

    When you look at issues of health insurance coverage, you realize that salutary as universal health care is (and yes, I DO support it), it is a mere band-aid on the open wounds of very sick societies, both in Israel and America. And frankly, the more Israel imitates America’s impulse buying marketing system, the sicker Israel gets. There are many reasons I am so condemnatory of American culture, and the infantile impulse buying that keeps it going is just one of them.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I could have written a whole series of articles on this – but if you really want to know where I’m coming from, remember the late Robert Kennedy – “I look at what can be and I ask, why not?”

    As if an unspoken prayer was answered, I came across this article from Desicritics, written by Somik Raha, on Organic Social Development, summarizes much of what I would have wanted to say, but takes the angle of wisdom from ancient India instead.

    He summarizes his concept in five affirmations:

    We WILL protect each other
    We WILL nourish each other
    We WILL act with great heroism
    We WILL undertake invigorating studies
    We WILL NOT throw poison at each other

    He then examines each of these affirmations and how they would apply. It is evident to me that universal health care would fall under the first, second and fifth of these affirmations.

    I invite you to go to the article linked and read it in its entirety, and take the trouble to comment if you desire; but more to the point, examine how these affirmations would apply where you live.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Thank you Jordan for sharing This sort of information shows the priority areas for research, and indicates where implementation of current technology would be most fruitful. The global disparities in incidence of certain preventable cancers (for example, liver and cervix) as well as in survival from several that are treatable (for example, lymphoma, leukaemia, and testis) demonstrate a global lack of equity in health care. This is apparently determined largely by where one lives.

    If the in-equality in health care were reversed we would see a whole different
    reaction to our crisis today!
    Instead of smug indifference and somehow blaming the poor or worse trying to blame Obama! They would be pouring their money into cures and a national “Quality” health care plan.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Yes Ruvyremember the late Robert Kennedy – “I look at what can be and I ask, why not?” That is when America became dysfunctional! When the top 1% had him taken out because OMG! what are we going to become, SOCIOLISTS?

  • Jeannie Danna

    OK that last comment went too far.. I can’t prove it

  • Jeannie Danna

    Ruvy, I like your #171

  • m a rk

    Although I long for the withering away of the state rather than its empowerment, good article and defense, Jeannie.

  • Clavos

    Cindy #169:

    Just logged on.

    You bet. Keep me posted.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Thanks m a rk speak up

  • http://www.stanford.edu/~somik/ Somik Raha

    Ruvy,

    I agree with your views in 172, and I will push the button on the third and fourth affirmations as well.

    Heroism is sorely lacking in healthcare, and through one bill after another, we are trying to outsource heroism to the government. A hero must lead by example, and walk alone even when no one else is willing to follow. In our pursuit for the big, we forget that when millions of small acts of heroism combine, the effect is far more profound than one big act by one hero. At the end of the day, this affirmation is about us accepting our own roles as heroes of society, in a small constructive way.

    Affirmation four is about invigorating studies. The problem with modern medicine is that its methods are not very life-affirming. There is too much emphasis on symptoms and very little on the cause. Mind and body are treated as separate (though that is slowly changing now). We are very slow to scientifically examine methods of healthcare that have been around in older cultures. We have very little diversity of method in the conventional healthcare system – the predominant focus is on allopathic medicine, which many view as injecting poison to cure temporary symptoms. Our hospitals are setup around symptom management and spend massive amounts of money treating illnesses when they’ve reached a terminal stage, but almost nothing in helping people avoid reaching such a stage. A truly invigorating study here would be how we can get to the cause of disease.

    Theory is all well-and-good, but we need practical examples of what is possible. Here are two heroes who inspire me. The first is Dr. Venkataswamy, the founder of Aravind Eye Hospitals, the world’s largest eyecare facility, which uses the profits from paying patients to cover the costs of those who can’t pay. They do not charge the needy, and the number of eye-restoring surgeries they perform each year is staggering. What is remarkable about Dr. V is that he started this after retiring from government service at the age of 58. He was also crippled from rheumatic arthritis from an early age.

    Here is a film that shows the story:

    Here is a second hero who has done much with invigorating studies. She is a doctor of medicine with a specialization in Naturopathy (a direction she took after having some fundamental disagreements with the allopathic approach). Based in California, Dr. Binal Shah not only tries to get to the root of the problem, she also does not charge patients in the conventional paradigm. Instead, she follows the gift economy, where one patient pays it forward for the next. The result is a Karma Clinic. The articles on her website on nutrition are, to say the least, edifying.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    One of my favorite pastimes seems to be beating dead horses.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Somik Raha, Thanks for sharing that film. We do have doctors in this country that would like to serve a greater purpose than their personal wealth but their hands are tied by the insurers of “for-profit-health-care.”
    I just finished watching all those poor people helping each other without whining and I am embarrassed by the [again I have to censer myself]that we have here.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Glad to see everyone is having fun at the races…:>)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Jordan – to your comment #170. You obviously have never been in the US military or you’d know that your statement about them being state of the art is way over the top.

    Milspec, the standard by which most military equipment is based takes years to reach the field. Most of the time, the equipment used by the military is 10 years behind that of the civilian sector. Every once ina while the military goes with COTS, Commercial Off The Shelf items, but for the most part, if it’s milspec, it doesn’t make it to the field until it’s already obsolete in real life.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    As a service to my community, I regularly go to the library, confiscate the stack of military recruitment materials and dispose of them in as environmentally sound a way as possible.

  • Clavos

    I had a Korean war vintage deuce-and-a-half (truck) for a commo van in Nam (1965 and 1966). Also, just barely before my unit departed the US for deployment to Vietnam, they replaced our WW II M-1 carbines for M-16s.

  • Clavos

    And who can forget the Iraq war “hillbilly armor?”

  • Clavos

    And the VA, where I’ve been a patient for decades, is a looong way from “state-of-the-art,” thanks to chronic underfunding from both dems and reps alike.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Cindy – Do you burn them with all your American flags?

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Wasteful and environmentally unsound. Why burn what would make a good rag?

  • zingzing

    i remember i had some american flag napkins… then i ran out of toilet paper… so i… went downstairs and got some more toilet paper… but i did use the napkins… to wipe down my face after a particularly messy kebab…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You guys are funny! That’s why I keep coming back…for the comedy!

    Maybe you could use them as a fuse on some of your molotav cocktails? Just a thought…

    have a nice day! Really!

  • Jeannie Danna

    That’s it all three of ya get the f___ out of here.
    come back when you have enough paper at home to suit your needs or don’t and Cindy I’ll lend you some matches and you can put them to that Twitter page.
    Clavos how’s my puncuation?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    zing @ #191…

    What was that soft wet popping sound?

    Ah yes, it must have been Archie busting a blood vessel. Just after you mentioned the toilet paper it was.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You obviously have never been in the US military or you’d know that your statement about them being state of the art is way over the top.

    Obviously I haven’t been in the US military, Andy…

    But tell me one country with a more advanced military? Isn’t that what you guys are always bragging about? Is this suddenly not the case when it suits the health care argument?

    Christ, you’re either the last, best hope on God’s green earth or the shittiest country on the planet. It all depends on what’s being argued, I guess.

  • Clavos

    Not yet the shittiest, Jordan, but stick around. We’ll get there.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    rofl zing!

    Andy, that’s silly. I’d never use paper fuses in my Molotov cocktails. But thanks for the idea; the cloth flags would work just fine and they’re free to boot! Just have to go out at night and acquire some.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Jeannie, you really hated Twitter a lot. What happened? I’ve managed to find some very cool people on there.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Good to see you Jordan! I just watched the evening news here and the right wing extremest have caused at least three shootings so far with all their crazy free speech!
    You and I know better. It’s good to have someone to swim up stream with…:)
    I would say hi to Clavos but then I would probably have to [sensor myself]
    Hi Doc! I just saw you up there…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    What kind of sensors, Jeannie? Motion detectors, or EKG electrodes, or…

    (beat you to it, Clav)

  • Jeannie Danna

    Do you think your going to gang up here? What happened to that stunning intellect Cindy? You seem to have left a few braincells home…Don’t sound right at all to me.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Uh oh. I am in the doghouse. You no longer love all people regardless of beliefs. In fact you can be very nasty at a difference of point of view, even when addressed to someone other than you. I think I am rating lower than a Dave Nalle.

    I take it, you find a philosophy that finds government to be illegitimate unacceptable. And I thought you said you were leaning almost as far left as a Marxist, I am surprised.

    I don’t know what you mean by ganging up. I’m merely expressing my opinion as I am entitled to do.

    I find military hawking patriotism objectionable.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Well if any one would like to talk about the issues here I’ll be around tomorrow. goodnight

    This particular article is about single-payer-health care…:)

  • Clavos

    Doc 200:

    Only because i was on the road and don’t yet have an iPhone (next week, maybe).

  • Clavos

    Another perspective on government=run health care and government interference in general, by Cal Thomas.

    Some highlights:

    As the Obama administration and congressional Democrats move quickly with their new power to grab even more power and to build larger, more intrusive and costlier government, they — and we — should consider Reagan’s thoughts on the ”power of the individual, rather than government power, and peace through strength to keep us free.” And, ”man is not free unless government is limited.” And, “concentrated power has always been the enemy of liberty.”

    and:

    Why must government ”fix” healthcare? Since government does few things well, why aren’t better minds than politicians leading the way?

    We know what works. It isn’t collectivism and government bureaucrats telling us what type of healthcare they will allow us to have; it is individuals employing innovation that will bring transformation. Individuals like the late statistician W. Edwards Deming, who developed his System of Profound Knowledge and his 14 Points for Management guidelines using principles known as ”systems thinking.” He used them as a consultant to Japanese industry to help several Japanese manufacturers create more efficient workplaces, higher profits and increased productivity.

  • ma rk

    …more efficient workplaces, higher profits and increased productivity.

    So, these are the best we can come up with for motivation?

  • Clavos

    “…more efficient workplaces, higher profits and increased productivity.”

    Better those than their antitheses under the government’s aegis.

  • m a rk

    That’s a given.

  • Clavos

    Well then, it’s a start.

  • m a r k

    But unfortunately viewed as an end.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, my claim relates to cancer incidence rates.

    Well, that’s lovely, Jordan. But Incidence of cancer has almost nothing to do with Health Care. It has to do with environment and diet and stress and a whole bunch of factors which aren’t even addressed by preventive care or health maintenance. Nothing in any health plan Obama could possibly propose will change the base incidence of various forms of cancer. Your point is irrelevant.

    Dave

  • Jordan Richardson

    Dave, if you read my entire post instead of cherry-picking bits and pieces (in this case, specifically just one bit) you’d know that what you just said was something that I said in the exact same post.

    It was entirely relevant when its appearance came as a response to you telling me I was “comparing” the two systems. But the reality with you, Dave, is that it’s not about discussing the whole issue at all. It is, instead, about discussing the issue in small pieces that can be directed to your own personal political philosophy. I honestly have no interest in doing that. I asked you to refute my points. You didn’t and, instead, you’ve chosen to claim them as irrelevant. That’s bullshit.

    Furthermore, I wasn’t addressing Obama’s health plan at all.

    I will, however, quibble with one minor point of your post:

    It has to do with environment and diet and stress and a whole bunch of factors which aren’t even addressed by preventive care or health maintenance.

    Are you honestly claiming that cancer incident rates have nothing to do with preventive care and “health maintenance?” Really? Is this your claim? Are you being serious?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Cal Thomas is a conservative syndicated columnist and author. I’m curious, what do actual physicians and groups operating in the field of health care tend to think about the current state of American health care?

    What is the stance of the Institute of Medicine? What about the World Health Organization? Or the National Center for Health Statistics? What about the Harvard School of Public Health? Or the Kaiser Family Foundation?

    While Dave might stunningly claim preventive care to have nothing to do with disease incidents (ie. cancer rates), the facts are simply against him. Preventive care does provide a functional role in the overall health of a society. This is supported by this rather long article that states, in part, the following:

    Many Americans still believe that the U.S. health-care system is the best in the world, and that its only major problems are that it costs too much and leaves too many people uninsured. But the fact remains that Americans live shorter lives, with more disabilities, than people in countries that spend barely half as much per person on health care.

    The article is of special interest because it draws on learning lessons from, you guessed it, the veterans health system.

    A UHC plan offers care to adults who are likely to forgo treatment that is necessary for chronic health conditions, thus later compounding the problem on the health care system.

    It puts the decision of health care back in the hands of the patient without pressure from third-parties with vested interests in spending money. A patient is not a consumer. The patient can make value judgments, not cost judgments. This also leads to a tendency to overproduce, to seek out surgical procedures or drug treatments that are not necessary. It’s no wonder Americans have a heavy reliance on the pharmaceutical companies in contrast to other countries. When hospitals and insurance companies have no direct profit interest in whether a person receives treatment, the proper care can be granted. Dave will spew mythology about a “review board,” although in our previous discussion he was unable to find any substantive proof that these review boards impacted the process in any way that could be deemed significant.

    The government incompetence mumbo-jumbo is absolute targeted politicking. Don’t fall for it. Clavos believes his government to be incompetent, but his cynical view doesn’t even come close to the cynicism most Canadians (and if Stan’s posts around here are any indication) most Australians feel towards their governments. It is a misnomer to suggest that the government runs health care, but these are fear tactics designated by the rightwing to implant buzzwords and token arguments to flatline honest debate. You’ll also hear “rationing” as another buzzword or “talking point.” Move past that; these points are not based in any factual arrangement.

    One final point before I stop hammering my head against the wall here:

    This study from Harvard Medical School rightly states that national health care can save $286 billion on paperwork. The findings are broken down in the report.

    Now, the continued breakdown around here will be that the government is incompetent, the United States system is superior, etc. At the end of the day, some people are going to believe what they want because they cannot think beyond political philosophies. This is not a political issue.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Great point Jordan you beat me to it. Are you honestly claiming that cancer incident rates have nothing to do with preventive care and “health maintenance?” Really? Is this your claim? Are you being serious?

    Preventative health care would also include keeping those drug company and industry lobiests from poluting our bodies and environment with toxins not enven allowed in Canada and Europe.

    I found this on the front page of the Huff this morning Jordan thought you might like a peak!

    blast from the past with a new twist

  • Jeannie Danna
  • Clavos

    Cal Thomas is a conservative syndicated columnist and author.

    Oh, you’re right. I forgot that nothing conservatives have to say is worth listening to.

    My bad.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Clavos, did you purposely ignore the context of that remark? I find it interesting that you would highlight such a thing when I was merely identifying the subject and doing some background work on what his motivations are. The next step is squaring that with the rest of my post and with the opinions of the medical community.

    If that’s not something you’d find useful, I apologize, but it’s not my intention to suggest that conservatives have nothing to offer on the issue. It is only my intention to place it in context.

  • Clavos

    Jordan asks:

    I’m curious, what do actual physicians and groups operating in the field of health care tend to think about the current state of American health care?

    Since the numbers of Americans who think that our current system is OK could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand, and since the debate here is not whether or not the system needs to be fixed, rather it is what should be done to fix it, the better question would be “what do actual physicians and groups operating in the field of health care tend to think about [the Administration’s proposals to fix the current state of American health care, and what do they think about HR 676, The Single Payer plan?”

    And that answer, serendipitously, is provided (though with HuffPo’s customary severe left bent) in Jeannie’s link in comment #214, which says in part:

    Just days before President Barack Obama is set to address the American Medical Association to pitch its members on his vision for health care reform, the 250,000-member physician group announced it would oppose a major component of that effort.

    On Wednesday night, the New York Times reported that AMA was “letting Congress know” that it would resist a public plan for health insurance coverage.

    Politically, the revelation could be a potentially significant blow to progressive health care reform advocates, who contend that a public option is the best way to reduce costs and increase insurance coverage. AMA has the institutional resources and the prestige to impact debates in the halls of Congress.

    The AMA, of course, is the largest, most prestigious association of physicians in the country, with a membership that is, unlike the Physicians For A National Health Plan group cited in the article, truly representative of the perspective of America’s physicians.

    One might say, “Well, the physicians are just protecting their turf, their incomes, and their perquisites, which might be correct, though given the professionalism and high standing of the profession, that is a shaky retort at best. But let’s assume for the sake of argument that that’s true, that the physicians are that crass and self-interested (belied IMO, by their choice of profession, but never mind).

    Does the public think that the nation’s physicians will be happy with a health system which they oppose for whatever reason being forced on them? Since the physicians are the literal core of the health system, and since without them there is no health system, might it not be better to listen to them, to include them in the deliberations instead of charging ahead?

    Anecdotal (but telling) point:

    My wife as all of you know, is chronically and acutely sick. She spends more time in hospitals than out (7 months in 2008, 3 so far this year, and is in hospital at this moment) as a result, she has about a dozen doctors who see her regularly, plus any number of ER docs, surgeons, wound care specialists, etc. who see her sporadically as her conditions evolve. For more than a year now, I have been informally polling all these physicians on their opinions about UHC.

    So far, they are 100% on two critical points: 1) The system needs to be rebuilt, and 2) The new system MUST include the opportunity for patients to seek private insurance.

    Most of the current UHC plans in other countries include that option. As currently proposed, the Single-Payer plan does not.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Jordan is making a very good case here perhaps some of you could learn from him. Thank you Jordan!

    Healthcare Usury
    Aravosis provides us with reason number 1,436,592 why the for-profit health insurance industry blows gigantic syphilitic goats:
    My friend Nick got a little surprise in his mailbox today from Blue Cross Blue Shield. A 29% increase in his health insurance rates.
    Nick has no claims and no chronic conditions.
    A public option for insurance is mandatory, Mr. President. Make it so!

    Please try to remain teachable my fellow pixels.

    In-order to get anything from the links I provide, you have to be able to do two things.

    [1.] You have to posses an attention span that lasts longer than two minutes. This means that you really have to read the material and not just react to it.

    [2.] You have to posses the intellect to understand what you are reading and why it has been presented. In other words you must open your mind.

    I would hang out today but I’m really busy in the real world..:)

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    I try to “remain teachable,” but my bullshit detector keeps going off.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I’ll submit that the discussion I was having with Dave was primarily related to more general points and what I saw as opposition to a UHC plan in general. If I’m mistaken, I not only apologize but express profound confusion.

    On to Single-Payer,

    First of all, patients can seek private insurance with Single-Payer coverage.

    The hitch is that insurance companies cannot offer the same benefits as any universal health care plan. This is already restricted in traditional Medicare, as I understand it. In other words, there is no duplication of coverage.

    Up in Canada, additional health insurance is purchased through businesses and work. My wife, for instance, has all of the benefits of the UHC single-payer system but also has private insurance that she was able to opt in for that enables additional supplementary benefits beyond the basic care associated with our universal health care plan.

    There is more information in this interesting FAQ
    from Physicians for a National Health Program.

    In Canada (and Australia), there is Medicare that pays out our health care. In the US, Medicare is limited in coverage. Contrasting, the veterans health care system in the United States is a much more “socialized” system of health care than Canada’s or Australia’s Single-Payer systems.

    Basically, Canada’s health care is provided in part by government funding with doctors in private practice (I see a private doctor, for instance) receiving government funding via contracts. Fees are set via doctor’s associations and provincial, even regional governments. We have a mix of private and public care, although the hospitals are mostly public. We may see any doctor or visit any hospital across the country.

    Now, I guess that leads me to this:

    What is beneficial, given the options in Single-Payer to seek out any system of care in the country and to seek out additional care through supplementary plans, to maintaining a private insurance structure? What can you do with private insurance that you can’t with a UHC plan without it?

  • Clavos

    The hitch is that insurance companies cannot offer the same benefits as any universal health care plan. This is already restricted in traditional Medicare, as I understand it. In other words, there is no duplication of coverage.

    Not true in re Medicare. My wife is on Medicare and we have a full-featured, top-of-the-line PPO policy. Though eligible for Medicare, I have opted not to apply for it so far because our private insurance (which we need to pick up the many things, including 20% of everything, that Medicare doesn’t pay for my wife) is superior.

    In the US, Medicare is limited in coverage.

    Correct. And HR 676 proposes a plan modeled on Medicare. It is in fact, aka “Medicare For All.”

    Basically, Canada’s health care is provided in part by government funding with doctors in private practice (I see a private doctor, for instance) receiving government funding via contracts. Fees are set via doctor’s associations and provincial, even regional governments.

    Wonderful. Trouble is, none of the proposals thus far on the table in this country will work like that. Administration officials have even been heard to say that there is no place for private insurance in the system, and most, if not all, of the folks who are the most rabid proponents of UHC are attacking the health insurance companies as rapacious, greedy and capricious. Do you really think that private medical insurance will survive changes wrought by people who think like that?

    We all have been told by you, Stan and others how well the systems in other countries work; that doesn’t tell us how well they would work here. The administration is again trying to ram through another element of its “change” without sufficient time for the matter to be thoroughly examined, discussed, and presented to the public for consideration.

    The administration’s chief motivation in this unseemly haste is not reform, it’s power acquisition.

    What is beneficial, given the options in Single-Payer to seek out any system of care in the country and to seek out additional care through supplementary plans, to maintaining a private insurance structure?

    See, even you advocate elimination of private insurance. Why? Why shouldn’t we have private insurance in addition to whatever the administration and congress come up with? Why cannot those of us who choose to do so opt out of UHC?

    Two word answer: Control. Power.

    Again, bah.

  • Jeannie Danna

    The ‘Rock’ In Health Reform
    By David S. Broder
    Thursday, June 11, 2009 Read the Washington Post-a government-sponsored insurance plan should be made an option for people choosing from a menu of health-care coverage options. Liberals want that included. Staffers for Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) included it in the draft legislation they rolled out last week. And Obama has reiterated his support for it

    bah?

  • Clavos

    a government-sponsored insurance plan should be made an option for people choosing from a menu of health-care coverage options.

    Government-sponsored, not private.

    Bah.

  • Clavos

    Yet another opposition analysis, published in the WSJ:

    Fixing prices at less than market rates will continue under any public option. Sen. Edward Kennedy’s proposal, for example, has Washington paying providers what Medicare does plus 10%. That will lead to health providers offering less care.

    And:

    government-run health insurance would crater the private insurance market, forcing most Americans onto the government plan. The Lewin Group estimates 70% of people with private insurance — 120 million Americans — will quickly lose what they now get from private companies and be forced onto the government-run rolls as businesses decide it is more cost-effective for them to drop coverage…[a]nd once the private insurance market has been dismantled it will be gone.

    And:

    …the public option is far too expensive. The cost of Medicare — the purest form of a government-run “public choice” for seniors — will start exceeding its payroll-tax “trust fund” in 2017. The Obama administration estimates its health reforms will cost as much as $1.5 trillion over the next 10 years. It is no coincidence the Obama budget nearly triples the national debt over that same period.

    Medicare and Medicaid cost much more than estimated when they were adopted. One reason is there’s no competition for these government-run insurance programs. In the same way, Americans can expect a public option to cost far more than the Obama administration’s rosy estimates.

    Finally:

    …the public option is just phony. It’s a bait-and-switch tactic meant to reassure people that the president’s goals are less radical than they are. Mr. Obama’s real aim, as some candid Democrats admit, is a single-payer, government-run health-care system.

  • Bliffle

    Clavos complains:

    “…most, if not all, of the folks who are the most rabid proponents of UHC are attacking the health insurance companies as rapacious, greedy and capricious.”

    Perhaps because they have been abused by the Insurance Companies? Perhaps because they are aware of the many insurance claim handlers who’ve testified to the abuses of the companies?

    This is the classic case of the REASON for intervention of government on behalf of citizens. It seems as though the Insurance companies resist all attempts at reform. Personal suits against the healthcare system are exhausting and long and usually futile. Class Action lawsuits just enrich trial lawyers. Even if an individual wins a lawsuit against the healthcare industry (usually because of an empathic jury) it will be reversed on appeal by judges (usually empathic to the good fortunes of the corporations they admire).

    The ironic thing is that the Insurance cos. have brought this down on their own heads. They could have made this system work but they couldn’t resist cheating.

  • Clavos

    Let’s fix America’s health care system — it needs fixing; we all agree on that point.

    But let’s not rush to judgment, throwing the baby out with the bathwater; let’s discuss it first, and give everyone a chance to speak.

    From that debate, let’s craft a plan that works.

    That’s the American way, not cramming legislation down the citizens’ throats.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Few would argue that health care in the United States is optimal. Even Panamá, an allegedly third world country, could provide some useful ideas.

    Unfortunately, the devil is in the details and much being written about the current administration health care proposal provides party line fluff rather than details. When the details are ignored, the devil eventually makes his presence known in the form of unintended consequences.

    This week the Democrats have unveiled their two primary proposals — a 700-plus page bill in the Senate and the outline of the forthcoming version in the House that presents essentially the same blueprint for change.

    There are problems with the Senate Bill, and there will likely be problems with the House bill. Sorting out the details is essential — regardless of one’s view as to how health care should be reformed.

    Even if the basic goals of the legislation are salutary, it should not be voted upon until its intricacies have been explored and its probable but unintended consequences have been considered. When the recent Stimulus Package was passed, unread, by the Congress, there were quite legitimate complaints that the Congress had not done its job. It would be unfortunate were the health care reform vote to be so hurried that something similar happens here. “Act in haste, repent at leisure.”

    Dan(Miller)

  • Jeannie Danna

    Exactly the point Bliffle!

    the Insurance cos. have brought this down on their own heads. They could have made this system work but they couldn’t resist cheating.

    We have settled for mediocrity–President Barack H. Obama

    We have settled for the status quo in this country. All the things that made us such risk-takers and innovators have been stripped away from us, one by one, by the institutions that we created!
    We can’t use the natural, more safe, homeopathic medicines because they have been lobbied away by the big pharmas. We can’t employ touch therapy because the people in the insurance offices ,that are controlling our health care, don’t know what it is!

    and by the way, we also created government so don’t be soooo afraid of it!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos-Let’s fix America’s health care system — it needs fixing; we all agree on that point.

    But let’s not rush to judgment, throwing the baby out with the bathwater; let’s discuss it first, and give everyone a chance to speak.

    How many more people have to suffer and die while we are all debating and trying to distract the American public with other trivial bullshit while the opportunity to really change our dysfunctional country slips away for good? the hell with punctuation!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jeannie,

    If I understand your comment # 229, you contend that Government — unlike so many of the other institutions we have created — is not something of which we should be sooooo afraid.

    I disagree. The Government is very powerful, and has great potential for doing harm regardless of the political party temporarily in charge.

    Sure, the insurance companies have brought much anger down upon their own heads. Wouldn’t it be nice, however, if the resultant falling rubble should land on them, rather than on the country as a whole?

    Dan(Miller)

  • Jeannie Danna

    My lord Dan, You all should have said the devil is in the details, let’s slow down… when we were ram-roded with Iraq and all those tax cuts for the Oil and Pharma companies who were, and are still, experiencing record profits while the average American’s income went to hell!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Dan, I disagree…We are the government . The problem I see is that the same group is not in power right now.

    the Republican/Conservative Parties have done almost irrevocable damage to us, this is true!
    But, the sleeping eye is awake now
    sooner or later the opiate of the masses was bound to wear off…shopping

    What worries me more than my government right now is the propaganda spilling out of both sides of our MEDIA We are calling forth the lone wolves and I know we can all see this!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Dan, I really went off on you yesterday and for that I am sorry, but I am not taking back the reasons why I exploded…

    We are playing games with words and presentation with words just like the media

    Many people don’t investigate the source of their information, they can’t they are too busy trying to survive and then others are just as dumb as a box of rocks! they are easy to influence and look what’s happening here now!

    While we are debating on BC, Joe Shmow is loading his rifle because of what he just heard on the radio or just saw on TV..:(

  • Ruvy

    We are the government.

    No Jeannie you citizens are not the government – certainly not in the United States. I was a political activist in both parties for more years than I care to remember. And what I learned was that the citizens are considered shit by the governing elites in the States – by BOTH parties.

    There is a political class that considers itself above you in America.

    The fundies who gave so much fervent support to the Republicans for years were always considered useful idiots. For years union types, blacks, Jews and other money cows have been considered useful idiots by the Democrats.

    Joe Sixpack is a term invented to describe the “great unwashed” in the States – like you and almost everyone else who comments on Blogcritics Magazine.

    Here you are Jeannie. Have a beer.

    Now doesn’t that taste good?

  • Jeannie Danna

    You should have your comments washed. now go away, scram your like a little pest

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jeannie,

    Re #234 — Actually, I think I did; I wasn’t writing articles back then, however.

    Re #s 235 and 236 — I don’t think that the Republicans are better or worse than the Democrats; most are quite happy to get elected or to get elected again — and again and again.

    If as you say,

    Many people don’t investigate the source of their information, they can’t they are too busy trying to survive and then others are just as dumb as a box of rocks! they are easy to influence and look what’s happening here now!

    then it is a bit of a stretch to contend that the sleeping eye is awake now. . .

    The mere words in the health care reform package are important. It is not a matter of grammar or style; it is a matter of substance. Like it or not, whatever legislation becomes The Law will be dissected by many lawyers, each of whom will be looking after the best interests of his clients. Unless whatever becomes The Law is tightly written and understood by those voting on it, there will be unforeseen consequences, and some of them may turn out to be very, very painful.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    We have settled for mediocrity–President Barack H. Obama

    Quoted for Truth.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Democracy_now!

    We have settled for mediocrity-President Barack H. Obama

    I know how you are interpreting my Presidential quote…wink

  • zingzing

    better than dangerous incompetence.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    237 – Ruvy,

    Your comment made complete sense to me. If you’d like you are welcome to sit in the bad kids corner with me.

    The ‘polite folks’ in the neighborhood know best, please allow them to continue to try to control everyone in sight, call people names, tell people to get lost and use other gentle, ‘non-sucking’ methods of social intercourse.

    If your feelings have been utterly crushed, by any of the above, I have some american flag napkins, in case you need to blow your nose.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Dan, I was being floral-the sleeping eye is awake now. . .

    #234 You all should have used that Government Power I keep being warned about! #235 and # 236 are just obvious…

  • Jeannie Danna

    Zing, I think I know what you mean.

  • Jeannie Danna

    I am not going to argue with this little cluster of dust…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy — re # 243 — May I join you and Ruvy in the bad kids’ corner? Would it be OK if I listen to some neat audio tapes I just received?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dan(Miller),

    Not only are you welcomed to join us. We’ve had a chair with a personalized nameplate made for you.

    Feel free to indulge in the H2G2 first; the Spensers can wait.

    (btw…help yourself to some rum, it’s right there on the shelf…no there, you can’t miss it, not that shelf, the other shelf, it’s right in front of the bottle labeled Molotov cocktail with the American flag wick…what?…no, I don’t recommend substitutions.)

  • Clavos

    better than dangerous incompetence.

    True, but still short.

  • Clavos

    I’m really jealous now!

    Do I get a chair too, or am I just chopped liver?

    Am I even invited???

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    haha!

    Clav, you have your own barcalounger in the bad kid’s corner. We had to dispose of the remote control though….we don’t think TV is good for you. Gotta keep you away from ‘the forces of evil’ and all. =O)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    oh, and bring some of that chopped liver with you…and some crackers too….what?…never mind I’ll get them myself. (sheesh)

  • Clavos

    All I asked was where they were…

    No fair! I’m gonna tell Mom.

  • Jeannie Danna

    LOOK how nice Clavos is when he’s not trying to fit in-Jeannie,

    {first parted deleted for privacy}

    That said, remember that we all are just pixels on a screen to each other. Put it this way: almost everything you know about me I told you, and you have no way of knowing whether or not I’ve told the truth. I’m not saying I’ve been lying to you and everyone else, please don’t misunderstand my point, but it’s a fact that you just don’t know for sure, and you should keep that in mind when interacting with anyone anywhere on the Web; and act and react accordingly.

    That’s not meant to scare you, just to give you a heads up. If you use common sense, there’s no reason to be scared wile on the web.

    Recommending someone to come to BC is no mistake; nothing harmful has actually happened to you because of being on BC, has it?

    Hope this relieves your worries somewhat.

    Clav very nice to me isn’t he when your not around :)

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Great now she’ll make chopped liver for dinner again tonight and I’ll have to feed it to the dog and go hungry again.

  • Jeannie Danna

    And that’s not a typo

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Now Jeannie, you should know better than to try to post your name address phone number and measurement’s here. Clavos would…..

  • Jeannie Danna

    Did someone let the air out of the room? It seems soooooo quiet in here!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    I don’t see where Clav is not being nice to you now Jeannie. I don’t see where I was ever not nice to you.

    What I see is that you don’t like very much when someone sees things very differently than you do. That doesn’t mean they are being mean to you or to anyone else.

    Not agreeing with someone is enough for you to start blatantly insulting people, insinuating they are brainless and saying they ‘suck.’ You also seem to have some problem with just accepting and letting be what you don’t like. It’s one thing to disagree or fight it’s another thing to monitor the whole of BC in some odd attempt to control everyone.

    In my opinion, it’s you who need the lesson in how to treat others, not the other way around.

    Many of us have had adjustment problems on arrival. I did. The internet is very different from real life. One would hardly be expected to constantly interact about heated subjects with so many people one disagrees with.

    At some point you may accept that there are going to be people who do not, say respect the flag, and other things you may find offensive. These same people may find it offensive that you do. In other words, you can’t take for granted that your own version of what counts as an appropriate viewpoint reigns as the only valid one.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    actually, what’s not nice is going to an article about a musician’s death to whine to EO about what constitutes free speech. It’s totally disrespectful to the man’s memory and the author.

  • Clavos

    In an opinion piece published today On Real Clear Politics, Michael Barone, of Newsweek noted that:

    An April tracking poll conducted for the Kaiser Family Foundation shows that voters rank changing health care below strengthening the economy, stabilizing Medicare and Social Security, and reducing the federal budget deficit on a list of eight possible priorities. Democrats rank it higher, Republicans rank it at the bottom, and independents, on this issue like many others this year, look more like Republicans than Democrats.

    The blunt fact is that most Americans are satisfied with their health insurance and don’t believe major legislation will improve things for them. This gives opponents of the Democrats’ rush to legislate a strong talking point.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Are you trying to cover your tracks? I already copied all the head games. Why don’t you take your little cluster of pixels and move along.
    I e-mailed Eric and I will call the number I have in my reply now.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Cover his tracks about what? You really don’t perceive how badly your perception is off.

    Frankly between you and Roger, you are both annoying the piss out of me.

    You are unfucking believable.

  • Jeannie Danna

    copied this one too. Please stop while you are not so far behind

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Copy this one too. Perhaps you be telling him what he should think as well as how many brain-cells he is deficient when he disagrees with you, in that wonderful control-freakish authoritarian way you have.

  • Clavos

    @ # 260:

    Are you talking to me, Jeannie?

    What about??

  • Ruvy

    Cindy,

    Thank you for the chair in the bad kid’s corner. I’ve been a bad boy for a long time now – and don’t intend to stop either.

    You know the saying, “scratch a liberal and you get a fascist”? Well, loving kitty that you are, you scratched – I scratched, mean ol’ tom that I am – Dan scratched, ol’ codger and stickler for words that he is – Clavos scratched.

    You’re getting the picture, aren’t you?

    After a while, you realize that the ism’s aren’t that important as whether people (and the pixels they push around on the screen) are realists or not. And slowly, we are all seeing who the realists here are and aren’t.

    The champions of universal health care need to get terribly realistic. The dollar is going to collapse in a matter of months. Money will not be the medium of exchange as it will be virtually meaningless. So, they need to find another way round the problem – because people will still need health care. And when the swine flu strikes, and starts to kill as did the Spanish flu did, they will need solutions, not people screaming at them to get lost.

    I’ve tried at various points in the comment thread to provide helpful comments but they have been entirely ignored (except for a pat on the head here and there). Well, now, I’m going to sit down and have breakfast with my family, and a cup of coffee. I don’t have further patience for this non-discussion…..

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Jordan – The US may have the best military in the world, but a military force is designed to kill things, not keep things alive! And they do it quite well with ten year old technology. Do you really want your doctor using ten year old technology?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Hello Andy, Nice to see an intelligent writer here

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Hello Jeannie. Nice of you to say Jeannie, but I’m not a writer, I’m just a BS artist! It’s more fun that way…My friends tell me they can hear me when they read the stuff I write. But you have to know central Jersey attitude, not accent, attitude, to know what I sound like…

  • Jeannie Danna

    [Edited]

    Ruvy

    in response to HR676, US National Health Care Act: What’s Stopping Us?

  • Clavos

    Here’s an excerpt from an opinion piece published in the Weekly Standard‘s blog. It seems that, faced with growing opposition to the “public option” for health care, Senator Baucus is resorting to strong arm tactics:

    Top aides to Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) called a last-minute, pre-emptive strike on Wednesday with a group of prominent Democratic lobbyists, warning them to advise their clients not to attend a meeting with Senate Republicans set for Thursday.

    Russell Sullivan, the top staffer on Finance, and Jon Selib, Baucus’ chief of staff, met with a bloc of more than 20 contract lobbyists, including several former Baucus aides.

    “They said, ‘Republicans are having this meeting and you need to let all of your clients know if they have someone there, that will be viewed as a hostile act,’” said a Democratic lobbyist who attended the meeting.

    “Going to the Republican meeting will say, ‘I’m interested in working with Republicans to stop health care reform,’” the lobbyist added…

    But with Baucus’ office still warning dissenters that anyone who makes their opposition public could be permanently excluded from future negotiations, the groups representing businesses, health care providers, hospitals and similar stakeholders are still wavering on whether to voice their concerns publicly.

    One Democratic official with a distinct lact of self-awareness calls the Republicans’ audacious attempts to hold meetings in the face of Democratic threats “disheartening.”

    “While Democrats and many Republicans are working collaboratively to reform health care, a small group of Republicans appear all too eager to derail this promising, bipartisan effort,” this source said. “It’s politics as usual, it’s disheartening and it’s a shame.”

    Given the potential danger of being elbowed out of health care negotiations by Democrats who are already openly bullying private-sector opponents, it speaks to just how dangerous those speaking out think the “public option” really is. Our friends on the left would tell you it’s doctors’ insatiable thirst for money that compels them to oppose health care reform. But if one actually listens to the doctors, one will find they’re in favor of some reforms (a requirement for those who can afford insurance to buy it) but feel that a government-run option would be detrimental to doctors and patients.

  • Jeannie Danna

    Andy, I am going to join you soon. This is not a form of creative expression it is a form of creative slavery.
    It should take 24hrs to remove non relating threats from ones thread but apparently you have to know someone and be in their clique.

  • Mark

    Jeannie, I’m sorry to see that you’ve arrived at such an intolerant position. Enhanced censorship will not improve this site.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m making an exception, Jeannie, to my “no posting” resolution just to let you know the site is being supervised with greater than usual diligence. For one thing, if Christopher Rose’s highly uncharacteristic of him comment (concerning Colin Powell being a moron) has been erased, you should take comfort in the fact that perhaps things might change for the better.
    Meanwhile, try to stay calm and maintain the high ground. Ruvy will be Ruvy. And if you think his indirectness was insulting, you should have read some of his proposals concerning nuking Tehran and starting World War III. But what you seeing here right now is “politics” at its worst – which makes for the strangest of bedfellows. So try to ignore these comments for now and keep the faith. And above all, don’t let your spirit be broken.

    As I’ve told you in my last email, I’ll back you up with Eric with tales of my own (should the need arise). Meanwhile, let’s hope for a better and less vitriolic BC in the near future.

    And I’d ignore Mark’s remark concerning censorship, though he meant it in kindness. He’s not quite aware of the extent to which some here have hijacked the BC community and try to exert their influence in a “subtle” way.)

    Now that I’ve broken my moratorium, let me retire in silence.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot,com Ruvy

    Mark is right, Jeannie.

    Threats to complain of cyber-terrorism will get you nothing here. I looked up cyber-terrorism, and frankly, you haven’t a leg to stand on.

    If you have trouble arguing a position (bear in mind, I have not really argued with you over the issues of this thread at all) or disagreeing with a person who doesn’t share you perspective, you have two choices. One is to cease posting here. The other, pursued by some writers, is to refuse to comment on the comment thread after they have posted an article.

    Of course, Jeannie, you could realize that while we all appreciate your point of view (and that is meant sincerely), and I appreciate your story-telling talents in your article writing, we also have our own points of view and perspectives, which perforce differ from yours. Our life experiences differ from yours.

    And just so you clearly understand this. You yourself see pixels which are arranged to represent what you and we write. But real people do write here, with real points of view, and real reasons for them.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Jeannie, Chris Rose has a heavy-handed brand of fairness that is to be admired not scoffed at-considering what he has to put up with behind the scenes.

    I’ve found that even when I disagree with his editing decisions, if I go back a few days later, I find myself grudgingly agreeing with him… alas.

    Doc-his sidekick is much the same way.

    As for his moron remark earlier, I noticed it didn’t have a URL attached to it and may have been someone else posting in his name, which is why it was deleted… but that’s only a theory.

    Frankly I’d rather be disagreed with than ignored. The jerks with the childish school-yard insults are using the only lame weapons they have, and frankly I’ve recently learned the hard way that they do more damage to themselves and their dubious credibility than they do to their targets.

    Hang in there kid, you’re among friends. Friends aren’t always “yes-men” that constantly agree with you-otherwise they’d be boring as hell.
    Jet

  • Jeannie Danna

    Then why am I banned?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Oh it works now! How strange….

  • Jeannie Danna

    They are erasing my comments instead of dealing with this situation head on.
    My cousin called and said she could not even read the threads.
    How about some honesty here.

  • Jeannie Danna

    I am not a school yard fool El Bitcho and Cindy I read your e-mail to Roger in it’s entirety last night. You my dear have serious issues.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    That said, remember that we all are just pixels on a screen to each other. Put it this way: almost everything you know about me I told you, and you have no way of knowing whether or not I’ve told the truth.

    Jeannie, your fundamental mistake here is in thinking that we care. The perception of who you are is all we have or need to have and all that matters in this context. Right now what we are perceiving is quite unflattering.

    Dave

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    You’re a day late and a dollar short Jet. Apparently she is among stupid people who suck, based on her own assessments over the last week or so. We’ve been hearing nothing but how mean and stupid everyone here is.

    Friends aren’t always “yes-men” that constantly agree with you-otherwise they’d be boring as hell.

    Good luck with that.

    Personally, if it were my site, about now I would be thinking of requiring a mental health evaluation before admittance.

    (New BC rule book page 347: No saying Colin Powell is a moron. – We are watching you!)

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    As far as I can tell, your main objection here is to people disagreeing with the premise of your article.

    If you post an opinion piece in Politics, that’s going to happen; no one is “ganging up” on you, or singling you out. Look at almost any other thread in Politics, not just the contemporary ones, go back into the archives — every single article has comments disagreeing with it; every single one.

    It comes with the territory, Jeannie, and in fact is a major reason why the Politics section is interesting.

    It would be an extremely dull world if we all agreed with each other.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Oh well, I tried

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Clavos: It would be an extremely dull world if we all agreed with each other

    Jet 279: Friends aren’t always “yes-men” that constantly agree with you-otherwise they’d be boring as hell.

    Clavos if we keep agreeing, people will start talking behind our backs.

    Good luck with that Cindy!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Yes, Jeannie the e-mail exchange with Roger weighed on my frustration level yesterday. Between you here and Roger in my e-mail inbox, I felt like I was a sandwich but instead of bread someone used fruitcake.

  • Jeannie Danna

    R u threatening someone here?(There’s already evidence that something is being done. E.g., Ruvy’s nasty reply to you was erased. More significantly, even Chris Rose’s comments (our chief comments editor) got erased too – in particular, where he called Powell a moron. So perhaps some kind of a shake-up is on the way.

    I suspect what was really going is “the old guard” – Clavos, Chris, Dreadful, El Bicho, Baronius, and yes, Cindy, too – pulling a power play against the “newer” voices. Before you came in, there was basically Glenn, Jordan and Zing; I came later. But only I and Zing were apt to challenging “the old authority” in any meaningful way – which is why the attacks against me were so intensified. And then you came along, and now the shit is hitting the fan. They don’t want to lose their “esteemed” position.)

    New BC rule book page 347: No saying Colin Powell is a moron. – We are watching you!)

  • Irene Wagner

    Alls I want to do is discharge a firearm, in the privacy of my own backyard, into the squirrels who have chewed off the stems off almost every dang spaghetti squash I’ve planted this spring. It’s what the dang anti-second-amendment liberals are DOING to this country, Jeannie, them and their dang residential ordinances.

    Yah, liberal types like Cindy will probably recommend that I….hey Cindy…um…you probably DO have a recommendation that would be worthwhile…

  • Clavos

    in particular, where he called Powell a moron. So perhaps some kind of a shake-up is on the way.

    One more time, Jeannie:

    That was not Chris!!

    It was someone else, posting under his name. The person doing it was banned a long time ago, and has been taking advantage of a glitch that came about during the change of the site to harass the threads — many of them, not just yours.

    The comment was most likely deleted by Chris himself

  • Bliffle

    Clavos,

    You’ve cited your family health matters before (and that’s the only reason I mention it) as an example, I believe, of how the current private system can work. Is that right? And you may have intended that as a rebuke to people who support some bit of ‘socialized’ healthcare or health insurance ‘entitlement’.

    I understand that your family has had quite a few medical difficulties and procedures and that you have paid a lot of bills and a lot of premiums and witnessed many medical financial transactions. Perhaps you track your health expenses very closely.

    My question is: how does your family medical financial situation balance out? At the end of the year, and overall, are you paying out a lot more in premiums than you get in benefits? Or are your policies paying more in benefits than you pay in premiums? Are you getting benefits from, say VA policies, that surpass your costs?

    I ask because if you are getting more benefits than the premiums cost, I would like to know where I could sign up for such a wonderful policy.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Irene, can I borrow your virtual gun when you’re through with it?

  • Jeannie Danna

    I don’t know who Jet is and frankly I don’t care. But this head bashing is going to stop. Capiche?

  • Jeannie Danna

    #289 bullshit Clavos read Great work! Glad to see everyone agreeing and posting what you told you to. Remember…”
    — Christoper Rose
    in response to Colin Powell: The Most Misunderstood Man in Politics

  • Irene Wagner

    As long as you use the gun responsibly, Jet, which means, kill a lot of squirrels with it.

    I thought part of what a premium paid for was peace of mind, Bliffle. Isn’t the IDEAL to pay more in premiums than one’s actual medical expenses? Not taking sides here.

  • Clavos

    bliffle,

    I pay $900 a month in premiums, which is $10,848 a year.

    That policy pays (with copays) my wife’s drug bills, which are approximately $5,000 a month (one drug alone is $3500 a month).

    That policy also pays the 20% of her medical services and hospital bills, which have, over the past four years, averaged a little over $100,000 a year.

    You do the math.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “the e-mail exchange with Roger,” initiated by Cindy, not Roger.

  • Clavos

    bliff, exact premium is $904.

  • Jeannie Danna

    What the hell is this crap!
    I want to know what is really up with BC! and why I give a damn don’t ask me. I can’t remember
    I have all my writings in my possession now. Safe and sound without all your ridiculous comments. Not you Bliffle- I like you:)

  • Jeannie Danna

    Thank you for being here Roger! These clowns are playing wolf-pack!

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    Look at what you posted in comment #293:

    Chris’ name is misspelled!!

    He didn’t post it, but he probably did delete it; if not he, then Doc certainly did.

    Comments Eds:

    Would one of you please confirm?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Clavos is pretending to be interested in Health Care!!!!

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I could swear I said that it wasn’t Chris several comments back, I’ve offered nothing but comfort and an ally to Jeannie only to have it thrown back in my face.

    I’m through with this.

    I never thought I’d encounter anyone more conspiracy paranoid that I was, but I have now-thanks for the learning experience Jeannie.

    Jet

  • Irene Wagner

    I’m not playing wolf-pack Jeannie. I’m just playin’ widja. Cindy I and I disagree on…well, certainly second amendment issues…but we both enjoy gardening…and respecting people…
    hehe, maybe YOU’RE just playin’, too Jeannie. HA. That just hit me.

  • Clavos

    Clavos is pretending to be interested in Health Care!!!!

    Oy, Jeannie!

    I was answering bliff’s question!

    By now, from my posts to this thread it should be obvious that I’m VERY “interested in health care,” which is PRECISELY why I’m against the inept and bumbling Federal government handling it!

  • Jeannie Danna

    Don’t let the door….

    Clavos I see that misspelling? Who was he talking to ? Who is he? and why r u all so freaking nasty?

  • Jeannie Danna

    Oh bull you played that word game right along with those fools…Can I have a chair?

  • Clavos

    He wasn’t talking to anyone in particular as far as I can tell, just running off at the mouth, which is what he used to do before being banned about a year ago.

    His “name” was JOM, which stood for Just One Man.

    I don’t think people were nasty at first, Jeannie, at least not to you personally, but now, yes, many are starting to feel very frustrated by your reactions. Look at Jet’s post #302 for an example; he DID come on defending you, and it looked like you misunderstood him and jumped on him.

    None of us are really assholes, Jeannie, but we all ARE opinionated; it comes with being interested in politics, but it’s NOT personal for the most part.

    Ask Jet. He and I lock horns all the time, but we still can be (and are) civil to each other.

  • Jeannie Danna

    My husband is really mad right now! If you think I’m a pain in the ass you don’t know him!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot,com Ruvy

    Jeannie, stop throwing a temper fit and think. None of my comments was erased. One didn’t post. But one of yours, referring to the lot of us as vampires WAS.

    You seem to be having a lot of trouble with a basic fact of life. Adults have different points of views. Get used to it, Jeannie. Otherwise you’ll be a very unhappy girl here.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hiya Irene,

    I recommend putting them in those have-a-heart cages and driving them all to Fairfield, CT. You can drop them off at the Dupont residence.

    Really though, caution against using that wolf predator urine concoction. People I know who’ve used that have attracted wolves. What’s worse than a deer eating your cabbage? A wolf eating your cat probably.

    I wish I had some good advice. Alas…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    If a virtual pie throwing contest would help, I favor key lime pie. Yummy!

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    Oh bull you played that word game right along with those fools…Can I have a chair?

    That was a joke! Even you called it a “word game” just now!

    Stop being so paranoid!

    Nobody is out to get you!!!

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Cindy I and I disagree on…well, certainly second amendment issues…

    I think we don’t. I disagree with all the amendments!* :-) As far as I am concerned you could shoot all the squirrels that you want. (you big meanie :-)

    (*Well their enforcement anyway. It would be difficult to enforce amendments w/o a gov’t.)

  • Irene Wagner

    —-> key lime pie—> :O Dan(Miller)!

  • Jeannie Danna

    I’m leaving now

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    “the e-mail exchange with Roger,” initiated by Cindy, not Roger.

    This seems an important point to you Roger. I just wanted to ‘come clean’–you know, and admit that I wrote to you first! There– now your reputation as someone who does not write to people first is saved.

    I sent you an expression of fondness and peace–which has not elicited much of either in return, unfortunately.

    Now, I am going to get a pie. You had either better get one yourself or duck. :-)

    (Really, I am. I am walking out of the office right now. Shepherd’s pie and a good glass of Chianti, I think. And two or three aspirins for an appetizer.)

    P.S. Irene, I’m afraid that pie is going to be taken into evidence at some point. Perhaps you can hire Dan(Miller) to defend you. Oh wait, never mind, you’ll likely be co-defendants.

    (Really, the nerve of you two and your pies! :-)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Just so everyone’s clear, the erased comment purporting to be from ‘Christoper Rose’ (Jet correctly noted the misspelling) was in fact posted by the banned commenter who used to go by the sobriquets JustOneMan, JOM, Hope & Change and a variety of others.

    The comment was deleted by me. It was deleted because JOM is permanently banned from this site. It was not deleted because of some power grab or other far-fetched theory. Jeez Louise…

    Unfortunately, until the glitch with the editing tool is sorted out, JOM is able to continue to post and has been doing so using a variety of aliases, most recently ‘Fernando Escobar’. His comments will be deleted on sight; however, comments made in response to his may not be, since Chris and I have limited time to fuck around cleaning up his mess. The upshot of this, alas, is that some conversations may end up not making sense.

    His writing style is fairly obvious so, folks, if you spot a comment that seems to be by JOM, it would be greatly appreciated if you did NOT respond to it. This would also help with continuity.

    Thank you all. Please carry on.

  • M a rk

    …but…Colin Powell is a moron…

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    He’s got company

  • M ark

    And that’s just the first thing. As for Clavos’

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    lol @ Mark and El B.

    three wines to the wind…and I saw a rainbow!!!! not a half one but a full complete rainbow!

    (Dr.D, did you ever see my post to you in the channel where we were discussing films? I need your opinion.)

  • M ark

    (a stutter?)…As for Clavos’ None of us are really assholes…, well, I’m pretty sure that some of us are. I know I am.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy, you must really have been high (as in an airplane) to see a fully circular rainbow! They are as pretty as they are unusual (from the ground).

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dan(Miller),

    Well I have to admit this bit…(being a scientist and all)…I first saw the right half and then a mile or so later I saw the left half. Really though, I can verify that I didn’t make a mistake and see the same half twice.

    (I never did actually see the middle…so the ‘complete’ part was a bit over the top.)

    Mark,

    You too? :-) I am shocked!

    (I didn’t see you at any of the meetings. Or maybe I did…you never know with pixels.)

  • Clavos

    Everyone remember this important admission by both Mark and Cindy for use in future discussions when attacking the messenger is all you have left.

    Remember: Mark

    and

    Cindy.

    By their own admission.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    lmao…

    (scribbles out that bit about Clav being a nice guy…)

    :-)

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Clavos IS a nice guy. I wouldn’t give you a nickle for his politics, but he’s a nice guy

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Indeed Jet, he is.

    You gave me an idea about his politics though. Maybe if we DID give him a nickle, we could buy his politics, dispose of them, and give him some new ones. I’ll give him mine for free. Cost: one nickle.

  • Clavos

    Nickel, dammit!

    Shhesh…

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    But then Clavos wouldn’t be Clavos. Now if we were talking about Nalle; then….

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I’ll bet Clavos clambered to find the price of nickle on the commodities market before he responded to that! :)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Nickel, dammit!

    But then Clavos wouldn’t be Clavos.

    LOL. True. :-)

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Shesh? Ruvy’s been giving vocabulary lessons again?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Gosh Darn! The administration health care package, which I read somewhere was going to save us money, might not:

    June 12 (Bloomberg) — Health-care overhaul legislation being drafted by House Democrats will include $600 billion in tax increases and $400 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles Rangel said.

    Democrats will work on the bill’s details next week as they struggle through “what kind of heartburn” it will cause to agree on how to pay for revamping the health-care system, Rangel, a New York Democrat, said today. The measure’s cost is reaching well beyond the $634 billion President Barack Obama proposed in his budget request to Congress as a 10-year down payment for the policy changes.

    Asked whether the cost of a health-care overhaul would be more than $1 trillion over a decade, Rangel said, “the answer is yes.” Some Senate Republicans, including Senator Orin Hatch of Utah, say the costs will likely exceed $1.5 trillion.

    House Democrats plan to release their legislation next week. Obama is working with Congress to get legislation to his desk by October.

    So where is the free (or at least cheap) lunch we long suffering middle class taxpayers were to get?

    Again, lest there be another Stimulus Package debacle, those who favor the Health Care Package, and its as yet unknown consequences and costs, would do well to read the legislation (when available) and try to understand just what it says.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hmmm, Dave’s politics would likely be in the penny range by now. Probably wouldn’t even need a whole nickel.

    Considering Dave’s politics as they would be valued by the current market is sort of pleasant.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    One to one-and-a-half trillion? That’s all?! Seems like pocket change.

    The gov’t gives that much away just to help banks fund their lobbying accounts.

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Dan considering that the republicans had about 12 years to fix health care, social security and medicare, what’s wrong with the dems giving it a shot? Since the GOP didn’t succeed, maybe didn’t the exact opposite will?

    Not only to they have to fix it, but they have to repair the damage that the GOP did to it before they even get started, and like it or not that’s not going to be cheap when you consider all the executive salaries in the health care industry that’ll have to be taken care of or the republicans will start filibustering.

    HOW DARE YOU VEER BACK ON SUBJECT! That kind of behavior can get you in a lot of trouble around here you know!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Shesh? Ruvy’s been giving vocabulary lessons again?

    Nu?

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    oy vay

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    “A little rebellion now and then… is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.”

    …Thomas Jefferson

  • Jeannie Danna

    Don’t you people have lives?

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    “Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.”

    Mark Twain

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Shhesh Jeannie-the great galactic overlord hath commandedth us to entertaineth you so that we may be forgiventh for the horrible horrible and heartless way we’ve been treating you.

    Jet
    Mean, cruel, and heartless

    formerly of the law firm of
    Dewey, Cheatem & Howe

    (:^p~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Lives? You mean aside from your thread? Of course not!

    (Except the poker game I’m in. It’ll be over in about 2 hours…hopefully…if I can last that long.)

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    btw, could you people learn to spell ‘sheesh’.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Don’t you people have lives?”

    Well, since they aren’t posting as the publisher when they don’t get their way or checking in on a site they left in a huff like a bratty child, I would guess they do, but I guess it all depends on your definition

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jet,

    You are correct, obviously. Sigh. It is an unpardonable sin to veer back on topic, even if only momentarily. I apologize, profusely*.

    As to the substance of my Comment #333, all I ask is that these things be seriously considered:

    a) How much are the Democratic Party proposals going to cost?

    b) How are the costs going to be be met?

    c) What actually are the proposals — not the pretty bumper sticker slogan parts, but the parts that will be implemented; and

    d) Is that what we want and are willing to pay for?

    These are the sorts of things which any prospective car buyer should consider before signing a contract. Unfortunately, it seems that too many are caught up in, and believe, the hype found in automobile advertisements — and political slogans.

    Dan(Miller)

    *Sniff, sniff. Where is my handkerchief?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    More to the point, what happened to President Obama’s highly detailed and costed healthcare proposals which we all pretended he didn’t have during the campaign? Did the Congressional Democrats eat them for lunch?

    If so, Mr Obama needs to open a 20 oz can of whoopass. (Whatever that means. I believe there is a segment of the American population who swear by such a course of action, although I’ve never been entirely clear on what it would involve.)

  • zingzing

    jeannie: “Don’t you people have lives?”

    wow, what an epic fit. i don’t even know what this is about, but it sure is fun to watch. (seriously… does anyone?)

    at least when roger left, he actually left. and he was (unfortunately) defending some misplaced loyalty to some ideal of his, not just hissy-fitting all over the place.

    “My husband is really mad right now!”

    so? about what? what difference does that make?

    “If you think I’m a pain in the ass you don’t know him!”

    yes, we think you’re a pain in the ass at this point. and a hypocrite (you’re commenting as much as anyone…). and no, we don’t know your husband. but if you say he’s a pain in the ass, we’ll believe you. hi, pain in the ass. tell your pain in the ass wife she’s handling this really, really poorly.

    you had a place where your writing was read and vigorously discussed from multiple angles, and you just decided to get all pissy because… your ideas were actually discussed? that’s a good move, missy.

    if you don’t like it, go elsewhere. it’s up to you. we could use more people with your politics writing here, but if we have to put up with your attitude in order to get it, we can do without. goodbye.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    As this dictionary reference seems to prove. It is probably not a 20 oz can of whoopass but likely a 40 oz can.

    (Minimally, I have found the segment of the population in question.)

    1. 40 oz to freedom (also called a 40 ouncer)

    the fine art of picken up a 40 of malt liquor and gettin krunk

    and what the fuck is wrong with canada, we spell reggae the exact same as you ya deusche

    me and my boys are gonna go pickup a 40 and get krunk in the park and go break shit, 40 oz to freedom bitches.

  • Baronius

    “The measure’s cost is reaching well beyond the $634 billion President Barack Obama proposed in his budget request to Congress as a 10-year down payment for the policy changes.”

    But Dan, I thought that the government was going to make things more efficient and inexpensive.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dr.D,

    I’ve never been entirely clear on what it would involve.

    Judging from my reference, it seems likely to involve an international spelling contest of some sort.

  • Bliffle

    #296 – Clavos
    Jun 12, 2009 at 9:04 am

    bliff, exact premium is $904.

    Thank you.

    That’s about $11000/year.

    Do you get more than $11000 in benefits, or less?

  • Bliffle

    346 – Dan(Miller)
    …all I ask is that these things be seriously considered:

    a) How much are the Democratic Party proposals going to cost?

    b) How are the costs going to be be met?

    c) What actually are the proposals — …

    d) Is that what we want and are willing to pay for?

    These are the sorts of things which any prospective car buyer should consider before signing a contract….

    Would it be fair to ask the same of the private system that now exists?

    Were these questions asked and answered when it was decided to have and support the private system?

  • Clavos

    Do you get more than $11000 in benefits, or less?

    bliffle, didn’t you read the whole comment? The answer to your question is in #295.

    I even gave you my exact annual premium, which is $10,848!

    Go back and look…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Baronius, But Dan, I thought that the government was going to make things more efficient and inexpensive. But Baronius, I think you didn’t think anything of the sort. Too many people did, and look what’s happening.

    Bliffle, Would it be fair to ask the same of the private system that now exists?

    Were these questions asked and answered when it was decided to have and support the private system? Well! For your information, let me ask you a question: Might it be better if they had been asked and answered (maybe even accurately)?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    It is comforting to learn that White House health czar Nancy-Ann DeParle received just

    $5.8 million in the past three years from her work for major medical companies, according to a personal financial disclosure and other public records.

    On her disclosure form, an administration official, in a handwritten note dated June 4, attested that “all conflicting assets have been divested.”

    Already, executives at Cerner, where DeParle was a director starting in 2001 and earned $471,000 since the start of 2008, have boasted that the company was particularly well-positioned to take advantage of Obama’s push to modernize medical records, for which $19 billion was provided in the stimulus bill he signed in February.

    The Obama initiative “could present the largest opportunity in the history of our industry,” Cerner co-founder and chief executive Neal Patterson said last month.

    Clearly, these associations will not impact in any way upon her health czaring activities, and the divestitures will ensure this.

    The more things change, the more they remain the same, and Ms. DeParle’s patriotism in taking what must be a substantial reduction in income should be praised by all. Now that we know that the chickens themselves, rather than the foxes, are guarding the chickens, we can all rest easily. Oh. Did I mention that she is probably a Democrat?

    Whew! That’s a big relief.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Bliffle

    #294 – Clavos

    I pay $900 a month in premiums, which is $10,848 a year.

    That policy pays (with copays) my wife’s drug bills, which are approximately $5,000 a month (one drug alone is $3500 a month).

    That policy also pays the 20% of her medical services and hospital bills, which have, over the past four years, averaged a little over $100,000 a year.

    You do the math.

    Doing the math, it looks like you have a benefit of $60,000/year for drugs plus $20,000/year for medical costs and hospital, for a total of $80,000 in benefits each year for a premium of $10,848.

    That’s a wonderful policy.

    Where do I sign up?

  • http://jetsgaypride.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Try paying $10,848 a year for health insurance when you’re only making $15,000 a year and get back to me Clavos.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jet — It’s very easy, provided that you are The Government. Clever folks that they are, the folks in charge even know how to have The Government spend far more than it “makes!”

    Clearly, we should all just let them handle everything for us; then, we wouldn’t have to worry about anything.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Doc, in Comment #347 you ask,

    what happened to President Obama’s highly detailed and costed healthcare proposals which we all pretended he didn’t have during the campaign? Did the Congressional Democrats eat them for lunch?

    Nah, they know better than that, what with all the fat and other bad stuff. They probably sent them to the school lunch program.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Clavos

    bliffle #357:

    Not quite. As I mentioned, there ARE copays for the drugs, which run about $8,000 a year, so my net benefit is about
    $72K a year, and that’s only for my wife’s medical expenses; I get most of my treatment free from the VA.

    Your employer can sign you up with Humana.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Prof. Bliffle, I will guess that it is likely a small employer (could as well be a large employer) policy, in Clav’s case. The insurance cos do not like to provide small employers with insurance, but are forced to by law. This is in NJ, likely in FL also. There may be federal laws that address this; but I’ve never needed to know what they are. The following info regards NJ. One could get this policy by starting a NJ company and employing or partnering with one other person (I think it is one other, not two others.) 2/3 of the total persons working FT at the business must take the policy. Less than FT does not qualify (FT is 25 hours for insurance law, IIRC). There are no preexisting condition elements because it is a business policy. I am not sure what happens with preexisting conditions for a private individual policy. My guess is it is not pretty. I am also not sure if there are health ratings on individual policies that would control price increases if one gets ill after initiating the policy. My guess is there would likely be.

  • Clavos

    Actually, Cindy, it’s my wife’s employer, which shall remain nameless, but which is the largest private employer in the county.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Clav,

    What I am wondering though is this. Are the drugs in question not on the formulary for any available medicare plan? I am not sure why a medicare advantage plan like I have for my husband won’t work for your wife. My husband’s medicare advantage plan is through Aetna. They just started this year covering medicare in FL.

    Last year I paid zero premium in addition to the medicare part B that gets taken out of his SS check. That policy left too much cost open for hospital care etc..

    This year I got the same plan but pay $104 each month. Now all hospital care is 100% covered. Almost everything else is 100% covered and the office visit copay went down for both primary physician and specialist. Also, there are no referrals necessary, though it is an HMO.

    It has a travel advantage plan built in. He could use facilities nationwide (in Aetna’s network) 12 months per year. It is accepted at, for example, Cleveland Clinic in FL. It also covers outside of US emergencies.

    Drugs: I added him to my own policy (at a lower carve out rate for secondary insurance) to reduce prescription costs in the gap* (the $3454 for drugs one must pay in full if one has high prescription costs).

    *The coverage gap is expected to reach $6000 by 2016.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dr.D,

    I mentioned a book I am reading called Myths of Male Dominance. You mentioned another book at that time that you related to it. I forgot to get the title at that time. Do you remember what it was? I’d like to look at that one. TIA.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Cindy, it was Germaine Greer’s The Female Eunuch.

    Very witty and often profound, although she does go somewhat over the top. But then it was the sixties!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dan (Mi(ll(e))r),

    They probably sent them to the school lunch program.

    You may be onto something there. I had occasion to visit a local middle school a few weeks ago, and could have sworn that the options available at the vending machine in the cafeteria were, ‘Pepsi’, ‘Diet Pepsi’, ‘Fanta’, ‘Mountain Dew’ and ‘Dr Obama’s Health Care Plan’.

    I may, clearly, be mistaken in my recollection. Perhaps it was all the cheese I ate last night.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Thanks Dr.D I read the reviews and that will fit the bill perfectly. I need a writing role model that is ‘over-the-top’ just to get to halfway to the apex.

  • Bliffle

    Clavos,

    So, as I understand it, you derive $72k in benefits to your wife for an $11k investment. Is that right?

    Is Humana in the business of giving money away? It seems to me that you are getting $61k of somebody elses money every year. I suppose that’s other Humana clients premiums.

    At the same time, your personal benefits come from the VA, which I’m sure you feel entitled to, even thought that means the US taxpayer is paying your way.

    So a person could claim that you are just a leech on society, a welfare recipient. Or is it OK since it’s a big number?

    And you are opposed to other people getting the benefits of UHC?

  • Bliffle

    IIRC, the cost of the Obama plan was mentioned to be about $600billion. Wow! that’s a lot of money. Until you consider that the annual cost of the current system is $2.5trillion! Every year!

    Not only that, the cost of our old privatized system INCREASES by 6% per year. That’s $150billion/ year INCREASE in the private plan cost. Makes that $600billion look achievable.

    Now in the Senate Finance committee meetings the Health Industry promised to reduce that 6% to 5%, which would be a savings of $25billion/year. Well, that’s kinda small, relatively speaking, but it’s SOMETHING. But then, after they left the conference room the Health Industry professionals reneged and said “no, we really didn’t promise that”. They took it back. So what were all those meetings about that they barred public speakers from? One might well suspect that they were a charade. That the meetings were to create the impression that they were working on the problem, without actually doing anything that would upset their ‘constituents’, the lobbyists.

    Right now the health fiasco consumes 18% of the GDP and that is expected to increase to 34% in about 20 years. It will consume the rest of the economy. It’s an unregulated national oligopoly.

    It will destroy every other business in the USA. Who dreamt this up? Osama Bin Laden?

    And why would any conservative, any Republican, any champion of the US business community support this malevolent Frankenstein?

  • Clavos

    Is Humana in the business of giving money away? It seems to me that you are getting $61k of somebody elses money every year. I suppose that’s other Humana clients premiums.

    That’s correct, bliffle, that’s how insurance, as you very well know, works — by spreading the risk. This is true of ALL insurance, not just medical.

    At the same time, your personal benefits come from the VA, which I’m sure you feel entitled to, even thought that means the US taxpayer is paying your way.

    Again, correct. I damn sure did earn those benefits — more than many who get the same benefit, since I actually fought in a war, not just served in the military. The average welfare recipient emphatically did not earn their benefits — unless you count being born as “earning” welfare.

    And you are opposed to other people getting the benefits of UHC?

    Never said that.

    I’m opposed to a single-payer plan controlled by the government — not to the concept of UHC. I would prefer to see the government pay, with private enterprise administering it. Keep the partisan politics and bureaucrats-for-life out of it.

    And the myth that somehow Obama is going to save money with UHC is just that — pure fiction. One has only to look at the escalation of Medicare’s budget, which only serves a relatively small portion of the population: crips and geezers. One reason for this is that, as with most endeavors operated by the government, there is too little accountability, enabling billions a year in fraud and overpayments for services and goods.

    There is no reason to believe that Obamacare will be any different.

  • Clavos

    Cindy #364:

    Yes, I know about Medigap and other supplemental plans, but up until recently, we needed a full-scale policy to cover me. Although I am a patient at the VA, if I ever have anything REALLY serious wrong with me, I would prefer to be treated for it elsewhere. The VA is fine — up to a point — I’ve seen them ration, especially where meds and tests are concerned, and I don’t want to be totally dependent on them.

    That’s the same reason why I want to see UHC that, as it does in OZ (according to Stan), allows anyone who can afford it to carry private insurance. Everything I’m reading, however, indicates that, while it may not happen at first, the administration’s ultimate goal is to have everyone on UHC, putting the private insurers out of business, which will incidentally, put several million workers on unemployment.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Clav,

    This is not a Medigap or supplemental plan. It is a complete medical insurance plan. It is an alternative to the standard Medicare plans + supplement called a Medicare Advantage Plan.

    One big difference is there is a hospital copay of $100/day for days 1-7 in Miami/Dade. Here I have no copay.

    The main problem would likely be the 33% copay for specialty tier drugs. If the $3500/month drug is on the specialty tier list at a cost of 33% coinsurance the plan is blown.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #368:

    You’re welcome, Cindy. Greer’s basic argument was that modern women had expended so much effort being what men wanted them to be that they had lost their femininity – hence the title.

    Once you’ve read it, it would be interesting to see your opinions of it and how much progress you think has been made since the book was first published in, IIRC, the late sixties.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Dr,D,

    She may have some ideas similar to my own. I think that feminist women have emulated male dominant power styles. Thus we, as a society, lose. I think women have things to contribute that are different things than those men who adopt a dominating role have. If one looks at societies that are completely matriarchal, we don’t find a flip of power to women over men–but the egalitarian society where power and decision-making is shared.

  • Clavos

    bliffle,

    One other point regarding my eligibility for VA medical treatment: I became a VA patient because of medical problems incurred as a direct result of my service in a combat zone, so I think it is fair to say I “earned” the right to be treated at the expense of the taxpayers who sent me into harm’s way.

  • Ruvy

    Wow,

    Looks like Jeannie Danna meant it when she said she was leaving. What a temper!

  • Clavos

    She didn’t “leave,” Ruvy.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I finally figured out why she hated Twitter so much; people were on there saying whatever they want and there wasn’t anything she could do about it.

    I am very happy that, contrary to what she believes, she is not the gov’t. The gov’t is quite fucked up enough with the gang of loonies that’s in charge now. I think if enough Jeannies took control we’d have instant fascism. All they’d have to do would be to but the press under military control for ‘national security’ reasons; like in this fictional flight of fancy.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    378

    Oh…

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    No question mark after that ‘oh’.

  • Clavos

    Didn’t expect one, Cindy.

  • Jeannie

    That’s right Clavos she didn’t leave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    That’s right Clavos she didn’t leave

    OK Jeannie,

    Did you erase the author bio, the name of the author, the picture? I’m just curious. It was the conclusion I drew from seeing no information as to who put this article together. If all that data is gone – and you’re not posting your blog-site when you comment – that is the logical conclusion one has to draw from the evidence.

    Don’t get me wrong. I am neither happy, upset nor saddened. But I am curious.

  • Bliffle

    Clavos said:

    “That’s correct, bliffle, that’s how insurance, as you very well know, works — by spreading the risk. This is true of ALL insurance, not just medical.”

    Spread the risk? Isn’t that just like spread the wealth?

    So what’s to keep Humana from dropping your policy? In fact, shouldn’t a bureaucrat at Humana be dropping you right now? Isn’t he acting irresponsible in the care of the shareholders capital values to let you continue on like this?

  • Clavos

    So what’s to keep Humana from dropping your policy?

    The terms of their contract with my wife’s employer.

  • Bliffle

    So, what’s to prevent her employer from dropping her?

    On the face of it, it sounds like you’ve successfully gamed the medical insurance system – at other peoples expense. But do you think this is a reasonable model for other people to follow?

    And don’t count on your service 30 years ago protecting you from criticism. That protection was destroyed 5 years ago with the savaging of John Kerry.

  • Clavos

    So, what’s to prevent her employer from dropping her?

    It has nothing to gain from doing so; it doesn’t even pay the premiums, we do.

    On the face of it, it sounds like you’ve successfully gamed the medical insurance system – at other peoples expense.

    Np more so than any other person with a serious chronic illness and good insurance; we’re playing by the rules, not gaming.

    And don’t count on your service 30 years ago protecting you from criticism.

    People can criticize me all they want, they did when I first got back from Nam, and have off and on ever since. I’ve never paid any attention to criticism.

    My point about my service (forty, not thirty years ago) was that, again by the rules, I receive treatment from the VA because my service caused my medical problems.

    Again, playing by the rules — gaming nothing and no one.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    THE ISSUE: Should Americans have the option of getting health insurance from a government plan that competes with private companies?

    THE POLITICS: Many Democrats want to do away with private insurance and replace it with something resembling Medicare coverage for all, but that’s not politically feasible. Offering the choice of a government insurance plan was a compromise within the Democratic Party. Republicans are adamantly opposed, saying it’s the first step to a government takeover of health care. Defeating the government plan also is the top priority for the insurance industry, and hospitals, doctors, and drugmakers have their own concerns about it. Unions strongly support the public option, and so does a majority of the public in opinion polls. Four of five congressional committees considering overhaul legislation endorsed a government option, but the Finance Committee – which mirrors the composition of the Senate – has proven to be a tough sell. An effort to give government the right to sell insurance in competition with private industry failed in the committee on Tuesday.

    WHAT IT MEANS: A public plan could expand coverage at a lower cost to taxpayers, but it may also put insurers out of business and squeeze hospital budgets. Alternatives being discussed include nonprofit, self-governed co-ops, and giving insurers a last chance to show they can keep costs in check before resorting to a government plan. Studies indicate that a public plan could co-exist with private insurance, if the government option is restricted to individuals and small businesses.

    _ Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    The health care debate is far from over!

    A public option will be formed in the United states.

    This Obama cheerleader can feel it in her bones!!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Please call 1-866-338-1015-the Capital switchboard and speak to the representative of your choice or Speaker Pelosi.

    The public option is not off the table. Don’t believe the media.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    The only way to keep this story alive around here is to comment on it!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Congratulations to President Obama for winning the Nobel Peace Prize!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t expect our right wingers to join in the applause.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Quote from Nancy Pelosi “This is about going into that room and coming out with the best coverage and the lowest cost for America’s working families. I believe that that is best achieved by going to the table with the public option. I believe that the arguments are very convincing, public support is there, and, by the way, the dollars. The robust public option that is being considered in the House saves $110 billion. How can you ignore that?”

    “Anyone who had any doubts about the need for such an option need only look at the…health insurance industry this week. They put out a report on health insurance reform–specifically addressed to the Senate bill–which has been totally discredited…and then later in the week, in order to change the subject I guess, they launched a more than $1,000,000 TV ad campaign to falsely tell America’s seniors that they would be hurt by what happens to Medicare in the health reform bills.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Statement of the Week; Senator Chuck Grassley said: “It’s clear this bill is already moving on a slippery slope to more and more government control.”

    Seriously? Since when did spending less on Medicare and Medicaid programs, and handing billions of tax dollars over to the private health insurers become more government control?

    The Senate Finance Committee bill is far from government run health care and much the worse for that. It is a bailout for the insurance companies, whose failing business model looks more and more like a Ponzi scheme, where new premiums are used to pay off the previous unsustainable profitable promises, until eventually money runs out and everyone catches on. Things will continue to get worse until we treat health care as a social necessity (like fire departments) and enact Medicare For All

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    #396 is an excerpt from Health Justice Now.

  • NJ

    Has anyone ever closely READ HR 676.

    It is extremely vague about costs. But there is a clever little section slipped in there about borrowing money through US Treasury notes to PAY for the conversion of existing “for profit” companies to run as part of the government program. The government essentially can’t simply order a bunch of businesses out of business (that’ state level). The feds have to BUY all the real estate and other assets involved with the ending of “private insurance”.

    While it doesnt mention figures (of course it does not because it will cost trillions if not tens of trillions). A key to this is that it sets the “Buyout” period at 15 years. So the government will basically have to allow “private health insurance” to exist for an additional 15 years before eventually ending up with “Medicare for All”

    The next set of un enumerated costs are to retrain hundreds of thousands of insurance workers, as well as pay them at least two years of unemployment benefits. This runs into the tens of billions at least.

    The reason that the Finance committee has to look at bills is that the government has to SPEND money. The GENERAL rule on scoring such legislation is that it end up being “revenue neutral”.

    When you read the text of HR 676 it has no numbers at all. It makes a lot of assertions such as taxing the wealthiest Americans five percent more, but no hard, cold numbers as to cost. It simply makes assertions, and when you get to the Finance Committee you have to show SOME concept of cost.

    But so far the nearest legislation to HR 676 that has ever been scored was Pete Stark’s Americare. Which the CBO scored as adding 188.5 billion dollars to the deficit every year. Or to put it simply, over the next ten years the cost of health care in America would RISE by 1.885 trillion dollars, going up from 2.6 trillion to 4.4 trillion.

    There are many reasons bills do not get out of the Finance Committee. The most common is legislation passed to make political brownie points, but don’t have enough financial data to actually be scored as being “revenue neutral”

    So once Stark’s Americare was scored at adding to the deficit, if you want to CONTINUE to push that legislation you have to start making CUTS to what the legislation offers until you get to a point where the law will add NOTHING to the deficit.

    The same would be true of HR 676. It must be able to PROVE that it will not add to the deficit, at least to the CBO, or it MUST start cutting from what it is offering until it GETS to the point of being revenue neutral.