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Global Warming Fraud Exposed as Copenhagen Approaches

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With the UN's International Conference on Climate Change in Copenhagen only weeks away, recent revelations have thrown a monkey wrench in the plans of global warming activists to implement a worldwide treaty which would impose costly sanctions on the industrialized west and effect a massive wealth transfer to developing nations. The Obama administration had appeared willing to sign away a great deal of U..S sovereignty and transfer significant power over U.S. citizens to an unelected international bureaucracy, but the latest news may make it impossible to use anthropogenic global warming as a pretext for expanding the power of the administration's transnational socialist allies.

It started with the reluctant acknowledgment by many climatologists that despite past opposition, the claims of skeptics that the Earth has actually been cooling were essentially true. German scientists from the Liebnitz Institute for Marine Studies and the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology led the way, admitting that "global warming is taking a break," referring to the increasingly widespread acknowledgment that for the last decade temperatures have remained stable and that over the last 40 years the level of overall warming is considerably lower than previously claimed.

Even "Global Warming Central" at Britain's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research had to admit that their past figures were suspect and that rather than a 0.2% temperature increase over the past decade their adjusted figures suggested only a 0.07% temperature increase during that period. Hadley has always been a leading source for global warming activism and their computer models and data analysis techniques are being looked at with increasing skepticism as they remain one of the few climate research groups still reporting any warming at all over the last 10 years.

This week Hadley became the center of a storm of controversy over "climategate" when a hacker accessed their internal network and made over a thousand emails and documents public, revealing what looks like a concerted effort to misrepresent the results of their research, manufacture bogus data, suppress data, tweak models to produce desired results, and carry out smear campaigns against climate change skeptics. As the story unfolds some are describing it as one of the greatest scientific scandals of the modern era. As the scandal has unfolded the reputations of some of the most prominent climate scientists have been placed in doubt and ties have been exposed to journalists and media outlets who seem to have been complicit in the conspiracy.

Reports from the UN's International Panel on Climate Change which were used as the basis for hysteria about global warming were based primarily on data processed by Hadley scientists, data which has now been acknowledged to be incorrect by the authors as well as being exposed as possibly fraudulent. It seems possible that a cabal of politically motivated scientists directly manipulated the IPCC to produce reports based on bogus data to advance a globalist agenda.

Even former Vice President Al Gore, who has filled the role of High Priest for the global warming movement, admitted earlier this month that the science was not entirely convincing, that C02 probably did not cause the global warming he had previously claimed, and that the fight against pollution was more a spiritual than scientific one.

President Obama and other world leaders have been backing away from full support for UN climate regulation plans and it looks like the Copenhagen conference may turn into a debate over the legitimacy of global warming theory rather than the triumphant enshrining of a massive UN power grab as originally intended. With the new revelations of fraud and error fueling more widespread skepticism, Europeans have joined Americans in their growing opposition to draconian economic restrictions based on a suspect and politically-driven climate change theory. If President Obama does go to Copenhagen he may find himself in the middle of a firestorm of controversy which he and his party cannot afford going into an election year.

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About Dave Nalle

  • James Bedell

    You are missing links to any evidence of the conspiratorial claims you make. Where’s the beef?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Did someone take the links out?

    If you want a link other than a news report, you can download all the Hadley docutments from this source.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    The moonbats have taken to calling it Hopenhagen. I heard a rdio adverstisement the other day. Just when you though they couldn’t be any mor eannoying……

  • zingzing

    i wouldn’t be so quick to jump on this band wagon. a bunch of nutty conspiracy hunters trying to find something in emails written by scientists, using their own particular vernacular, might just be a dead end. still, it would be wonderful if you were right, and it all is a hoax. not that that should change the fact that we shouldn’t pollute the earth.

  • zingzing

    “Just when you though they couldn’t be any mor eannoying……”

    drunk, archie? and you can be pretty annoying yourself, with your little catch phrases and cutesy names.

  • dt0x

    zingzing…you know…. The school officials verified that the information stolen was authentic, and in the same breath denied that there is any cover up….Having read these e-mails myself as you should do….It is clear…There is no mistaking what they mean by what they say…a 2 yr old would understand this.

  • dt0x

    never underestimate the true owners of the internet…. the hackers ;)

    Have a Great Day!

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    @ Y’all — People are jumping the gun on the “nutty conspiracy hunters” angle, IMO. There’s 7.6 MB of email text alone to go through. (Some are datasets, etc, but mostly correspondence). Agree the use of cynical language is normal, and that people are making too much of this… but put in the context of the Freedom of Information requests made of CRU, it’s not looking good. (That’s why the filename was FOIA2009.ZIP.)

    Allegedly CRU did a big public data purge in July (?) … and in August they announced they had lost or destroyed too much data for a third-party climate model to be created — widely reported in MSM as something along the lines of “Global Warming Ate My Data”.

    I want to hear more from non-climate scientists… the emails do seem more deceptive and unprofessional than what I’d expected. At times (especially Phil Jones) the tone is propagandistic and aggressively anti-transparency. Consider that CRU is a central player in the UN IPCC process.

    The many references to deleting emails regarding AC4 (i.e. the latest UN climate model, released in ’07), as well as this very recent Kevin Trenberth quote (US NCAR, UN IPCC, AC4) seem likely to get some MSM play somewhere down the line:

    “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate.”

    It’s going to take some time for this to play out. At least wait until Monday morning before you call “tinfoil”.

    Dave Nalle, above, was kind enough to link to my post about the hack/leak.

  • zingzing

    “a 2 yr old would understand this.”

    no, it wouldn’t… and what you think you understand and what you actually understand are two different things.

    i’m going to let the story develop some more before i pass any judgment. people have been burned that way.

  • JP

    Oh yeah, those crazy skeptics!

    OF course, you need to ignore the emails where Mann et al discuss how to pressure peer-reviewed Journals from printing articles espousing a different point of view.

    You need to ignore the emails where these “esteemed” scientists write about deleting emails so they will not be available for Freedom of Information requests.

    You need to ignore the email where two scientists discuss lopping off the end of a graph to make the trend more linear in favor of a warming climate.

    You need to ignore the emails where they discuss how the tree ring data, which was one of the primary bits of evidence for the UPCC document is WRONG and rather than correct it, their stance is to vilify the person who found the errors.

    So sure, keep believing these guys. They are the most noted climate researchers in the world and they are pursuing their own agenda at any cost.

    Michael Mann: “well, they are just taking these mails out of context”. Jeez. He sounds just like a politician who will soon be going to jail

  • zingzing

    “At least wait until Monday morning before you call “tinfoil”.”

    well, that’s what it is right now. that’s why i’m waiting. i don’t see the why behind this supposed fraud. if global warming is slowing, that’s a fantastic thing. but data is data and melting polar ice caps is another. it’s pretty hard to say “there’s no such thing as global warming” and then look at no glacier where a glacier should be.

  • JP

    Except — zingzing, the Arctic ice has had a spectacular recovery in the past 3 years. Since all of the Arctic data we have is really 40 years old, if it continues to recover next year, that’s what we call a trend.

    If the computer model doesn’t actually work, we shouldn’t continue to use it, yes?

  • JP

    Oh and zingzing, the “WHY” behind this fraud is because none of these fools will continue to get government grants if their data is wrong. It’s just plain old greed and narcissism.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Still, the circus continues:

    The Italian Foreign Minister threatened that “world leaders[‘] . . . credibility could suffer if they failed to make concrete commitments at next month’s Copenhagen climate summit.”

    Central American countries will demand $105 billion dollars “from industrialized countries for damages caused by global warming. . . .We hope for a deal that is ethical and moral.”

    Poland “is to sell 15 million euros’ (22 million dollars) worth of carbon credits to Ireland, the Polish environment minister said Saturday.”

    That’s from just five minutes on Breitbart.

    Willie Sutton, also known as “Slick Willie,” said that he robbed banks because “that’s where the money is.” Now, we are more sophisticated and man made global warming is where the money is.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    @ZingZing — so, have you read any of emails or not? Are there any quotes or excerpts that stand out to you? …Doesn’t it bother you the way MSM and institutions (etc) present the entirely separate issues of “climate change / climate debate / climate response” in such an insulting and superficial way — and as if they were the same issue?

  • KL

    It’s far far too easy to get sucked into the wrong conclusions, when you don’t have the full unedited content put into context.
    and it is telling that far too many out there are so quick to judge these e-mails out of context.
    If the correspondence between leading Global warming skeptics was edited,,and phrases carefully selected, then it would be pretty easy to paint a picture that gives the reader the impression that the skeptic might actually believe in man made global warming.

    Take the “Loose Change” film made by two 9/11 conspiracy college kids, If you are easily led, then you would conclude from the sound bites, that had been edited together in the film, that everyone that was quoted firmly believed that 9/11 must have been an inside job, but in truth that wasn’t the case at all, lots of the quotes were taken out of context and quotes not supporting the conspiracy theory had been edited out.
    What is also telling is the information that was completely left out of the film, i.e no interview with the the Fire Chief at the scene who believes all the 9/11 conspiracy theories were unfounded.

    The publication of these e-mails seems no different to those 9/11 conspiracy theorists using quotes out of context and leaving out quotes that don’t fit the agenda.

  • JP

    KL — tell me, would you *ever* be convinced climate change scientists are cooking the data to keep their high dollar grants? What exactly would it take?

  • http://www.climatechangenotes.com SebSyd

    University of East Anglia webmail server were hacked, not the Hadley Centre. Different organisations as you should have know.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    well, that’s what it is right now. that’s why i’m waiting. i don’t see the why behind this supposed fraud.

    This would be why I made the fraud issue only part of the article. The defection of the German climate scientists, the 10 years of cooling or at least no warming, Al Gore’s change of position on CO2 — it all adds up to a story larger than just the fraud.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Y’know, I DO usually take the time to read the links to the claims by conservatives…

    …and gee whiz, LOOK what I found!

    >Draft statement
    >Any implication that Professor Keith Briffa deliberately selected tree-ring data in order to manufacture evidence of >recent dramatic warming in the Yamal region of northern Russia is completely false. A full rebuttal is published on the
    >Climatic Research Unit’s website.
    >
    This stems from a report on the Climate Audit blog site – a site for climate change sceptics. The blog’s editor, Steve
    >McIntyre, has produced an alternative history of tree-growth changes in the Yamal region by substituting some of the data used in Prof Briffa’s published and peer-reviewed analysis, with recent data from a more localised origin than the data
    >analysed by Prof Briffa
    . While McIntyre’s selection produces a different result, it cannot be considered to be more authoritative.

    This appears to be an attempt to discredit the work of the Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change in the run-up to the
    Copenhagen climate talks.

    SO IN OTHER WORDS, DAVE, a climate change skeptic altered the data to try to discredit the IPCC.

    From what I’ve read in the e-mails, there is almost NOTHING untoward in the actions of the IPCC…and sections of the e-mails like that found in reply #8 above are refuted elsewhere.

    Now, how well do you understand what you read below?

    “Dear all, At the risk of overload, here are some notes of mine on the recent lack of warming. I look at this in two ways. The first is to look at the difference between the observed and expected anthropogenic trend relative to the pdf for unforced variability. The second is to remove ENSO, volcanoes and TSI variations from the observed data. Both methods show that what we are seeing is not unusual. The second method leaves a significant warming over the past decade. These sums complement Kevin’s energy work. Kevin says … “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t”. I do not agree with this. Tom.”

    One of the most important tasks of any statistician is to remove the factors and variables that improperly skew the results. The factors being removed for the ‘second method’ listed above are exactly that – variables that (if included) would wrongly skew the statistics.

    And NONE of the so-called ‘evidence’ of a vast ‘climate-change conspiracy’ answers the observations below:

    On Oct 12, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Stephen H Schneider wrote: Hi all. Any of you want to explain decadal natural variability and signal to noise and sampling errors to
    this new “IPCC Lead Author” from the BBC? As we enter an El Nino year and as soon, as the sunspots get over their temporary–presumed–vacation worth a few tenths of a Watt per meter squared reduced forcing, there will likely be another dramatic upward spike like 1xxx xxxx xxxx. I heard someone–Mike Schlesinger maybe??–was willing to bet a lot of money on it happening in next 5 years?? Meanwhile the
    past 10 years of global mean temperature trend stasis still saw what, 9 of the warmest in reconstructed 1000 year record and Greenland and the sea ice of the North in big retreat?? Some of you observational folks probably do need to straighten this out as my student suggests below.”

    Dave, any time I want to see solid proof of global warming, all I need do is look from my yard to Mount Rainier and see the glaciers that aren’t even a quarter of what they were a century ago.

    AND those of you who insist that there’s no such thing as ‘anthropological global warming’ are forgetting one thing: You cannot afford to be wrong, whereas if the IPCC is wrong, fine, no big deal.

    If the skeptics are wrong but we do NOTHING – catastrophe. If the IPCC is wrong but we do everything they ask – NO catastrophe.

    The IPCC is betting money, as it were, whereas the skeptics are betting millions of lives. Sadly, those lives mean absolutely nothing to many conservatives.

  • http://www.climatechangenotes.com SebSyd

    One thing to note is that although we are going through a period of sunspot minimum We are getting record November temperature here in Australia.
    I agree there is no doubt sunspots do affect climate but why is it not cooler. Doesn’t it seem likely that human activities are accentuating climate change.
    3000 years ago there were 27million people on the planet now there are 6.7 billion, surely at the rate we are consuming resources and pumping by products of burning oil gas and coal we must be having an effect.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, you expected every document out of hundreds to be a smoking gun? And you think that a few examples which don’t support the argument that there was malfeasance hold more weight than the ones which do? Clearly people at Hadley were saying a lot of things about global warming. The fact that there was a lot of volume doesn’t change the character of their negative actions.

    And SebSyd, one thing which is almost always overlooked is anthropogenic factors which actually reduce global warming. For example, human measures to reduce forest fires and proliferate certain crops have actually substantially increased CO2 absorbtion, and the proliferation of domesticated cattle is somewhat offset by the reduction in wild bovines and other species.

    And going back to Glenn and his Mt. Ranier observation, how is it any more valid than my observation of a succession of unusually cool years here in Texas? No localized trend can be the basis of a generalized conclusion.

    I’ll go with what appears to be emerging as Al Gore’s new argument, that reducing pollution is a generally desirable for myriad reasons. Beyond that, there is no justification for the creation of a vast and unaccountable and unelected climate bureaucracy, nor is there a justification for redistributing wealth on a massive scale from developed nations to nations which actually produce more pollutants than they do relative to GDP and industrial output.

    Dave

  • AMERICAN PATRIOT

    GLOBAL WARMING IS SCIENTIFIC FRAUD.

    HACKERS UNCOVERED THE REAL DATA

    THE ELITE OF THE PLANET WANT YOU TO BELIEVE IT.

    ITS A LIE.

    TO SETUP WORLD GOVERNMENT

    CAP AND TRADE = FRAUD

    GLOBAL CARBON TAX = FRAUD

    WAKE UP.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    “I’m getting hassled by a couple of people to release the CRU station temperature data.
    Don’t any of you three tell anybody that the UK has a Freedom of Information Act !” — Phil Jones.

    Dave

  • caloot

    I really must applaud Mr. Nalle’s recognition of the true underlying cause of ‘global warming’. The very words ‘climate change’ are a joke when taken into context with the endlessly long history of our planet. It is a history of nothing but climate change. “Global Warming” and the politicization of this term is the true root of the discussion; and the seemingly nefarious shaping of this discussion by the ‘Scientific Community’ provides an almost unheard of look into the roots of how propaganda begins. The overwhelming fear of presumed outcome, coupled with a narcissistic approach to the practice of ‘science’, has led to what appears to be one of the many possible origins to a ‘fundamental redistribution of wealth’. That redistribution is meant to occur on the global stage, and the scientific community, whether they know it or not, through the fulcrum of ‘global warming’, is at its center.

    The already mentioned UN treaty will create a global government. Taxing carbon will fund the new monetary system that will replace the crushed dollar. Redistribution of economy will create a new bourgeoisie that will only empower the global totalitarian state.

    Goodbye American sovereignty. That beautiful bill of rights is going to be superseded by the global collective. blah blah blah…

    But dude was right before.. “never underestimate the true owners of the internet”

    THANK YOU Internet Freedom Fighters… err I mean you horrible hackers. You are patriots.

    I only hope we, as a society, can stand true to our beliefs in the power of freedom. and the power of true science to shed white light on the truth.

  • pablo

    Oh my God, yes I say it again, Oh my God, the great conspiracy denier Mr. Dave Nalle has spoken! He is actually not only referencing but indeed endorsing a conspiracy theory!! This by the way is the second time that I have seen Nalle actually claim to believe in a conspriacy theory.

    The first one being one that is extremely difficult for any rational sane person to believe, that being the conspiracy theory that 19 Sauds successfully infiltrated and attacked the twin towers and the Pentagon on 9/11. That particular conspiracy theory has been shown conclusively to have serious defects in it, and indeed untrue.

    Now comes Nalle the great conspiracy theory denier to purport another one. This one may or may not be true. Not that it matters, since the great global warming (chicken little the sky is falling) conspiracy has already been shown to be a scam. It was written about over 30 years ago by the Club of Rome, as a way to scare people into global government.

    All you need to know about this scam is the link below, it says it all in a nutshell.

    Global Warming Scam

    How I love to see a real hypocrite in action. :)

  • pablo

    Oh and I almost forgot to mention the great undemocratic non republic of the EU just selected its first Bilderberg President. He was caught playing tiddlywinks with others at the Nalle’s social club the Bildergroup recently. big smirk for you know who.

    EU selects its first Bilderberger President

  • pcisbs

    zingzing, obviously you have invested much time and effort into the Global warming hoax. Give it up and face the fact that it is nothing new and has been tried before. You are probably too young to remember in the 1970’s, when the same kind of left wing radicals claimed we were headed for another ice age. It has absolutely nothing to do with science, these idiots are motivated by a desire to globally re-distribute wealth, as only they deem fit. The only element which is consistent in all Statist plans is urgency and the need to rush and act immediately to spare disaster. The reason that the “it’s a crisis nonsense” is always injected into the debate-is to cut off debate. The strategy involves branding critics of their scan as villains. These disingenuous hypocrites must shut down debate, because in the arena of ideas they can not win, for nothing they support is prudent, (remember “If we don’t support the stimulus, unemployment with go up to 8% and now it is over well over 10%)

  • pablo

    Nice post pcisbs.

    The great Al Gore’s daughter Karenna Gore Schiff, for those of you on this non-coinspiracy website, is married to none other than Andrew Newman Schiff, great great grandson of Jacob Schiff, who was the number 2 man in the Illuminati, and the Rothchild’s agent in the USA. I know its just a a coincidence……..sheesh!

    If you want to know more about the great global warming scam, just google “Maurice Strong and Rothschild”.

    You have to love these global industrialist bankers, they have been ravaging and raping the planet for centuries, now they are tree huggers! Awwwww they are so cuuute!!! Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside, just like Homeland Security does in protecting me from the boogeyman.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    God help me, I’ve actually read a large chunk of these emails. For the most part the authors seem to be honest and not engaged in deliberate fraud. However, there is a clear effort to suppress and counter criticism, and more significantly there is a lot of legitimate concern expressed by the scientists in these emails about flaws in their own data and major errors made in the past which need to be addressed. Interestingly there are concerns about their own data being misused by the IPCC and others to hype global warming, and what seems to be an honest effort to correct their own past mistaken projections and improve the quality of their work. They even show honest concern about the lack of GW in the last decade. Some of their defensiveness and hostility towards the skeptics is pretty troubling, especially the cases where they discuss trying to discredit and smear fellow scientists. Typical nasty academic stuff.

    Maybe the most troubling is their lack of awareness of the political implications of some of their work and how it is being exploited. They seem surprisingly naive.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo almost makes me want to embrace global warming just to irritate him. BTW, Pablo. Years ago I worked for Al Gore. Does that make you happy to know?

    DAve

  • pablo

    Dave,
    That does not surprise me that you would have worked for the likes of Gore pal.

    infowars.com
    go Alex Jones
    The Fall of the Republic, Jones’s newest flick, excellent!

  • pablo

    Oh yeah and Davey? I got another great link for ya. A new book just came out called “The Strength of the Pack: The Personalities, Politics and Espionage Intrigues that Shaped The DEA” by Doug Valentine. Its all about your families employer of choice the CIA and their relationship with the DEA in the drug business. Just another days work for the agency Nalle.

    CIA drug pushers

    A great read and another great conspiracy story. I hope your not going to deny that the former employer of your family wasnt in the illicit drug business Nalle. Its a fact and quite well known.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    If global warming is a scam, why are the glaciers and polar caps melting?

    If the present theory is deemed to be inadequate to explain the existing data, let’s hear the more explanatory alternative. Instead of accusing scientists of some kind of conspiracy, let’s see the alternative data, the alternative theory, the experimental predictions from such theory, and the evidence. The scientists would surely have to respond, or is part of the conspiracy supposed to be hiding the fact that the polar caps are not melting?

    It seems reasonable that if it’s a scam and that the world is not really warming up, there would be loads of data confirming the fact.

    Or, there’s the existing data.

  • STM

    It was 43 degrees centigrade in Sydney today. That’s the hottest November day I can remember in Australia. It’s usually hot, but not this hot.

    It’s now heading for 11pm and it’s still 34C.

    Friday was up around 40C and overnight into Saturday, it didn’t drop below 30C.

    In the south of the continent, in South Australia and Victoria, where it’s usually cooler, they’ve had heatwave conditions for weeks with temperatures into the 40s (sorry, don’t know what that is in fahrenheit).

    I’m a sceptic too when it comes to climate change, but if this summer doesn’t cool down a bit, I fear I’ll be easier to convert.

  • pablo

    Bob Loyd 34

    Try video googling “The Great Global Warming Scam” it is a documentary that aired on BBC several years back, and exposes Global Warming for what it is a scam.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Bob, Stan, it is pointless trying to use reason with these conspiracy nuts, they still wouldn’t accept the truth if their neighbourhood was on fire.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    As to the notion of a world government, which seems to trouble a lot of people like Pablo so much, would it actually necessarily be a bad thing?

    Do people who oppose such big government also support the dismantling of the USA, the UK or indeed any political grouping bigger than a city?

    Oh, wait, cities are made up of different communities too, so let’s go for neighbourhood power.

    No, neighbourhoods are too big too, how about streets? Hang on, I don’t like the people who live on the other side of my street, so we can’t do that. In fact, I don’t agree with everyone in my own family. Let’s just make it every person for themselves and not bother with rules and laws except for that coming from the barrel of a gun. My gun!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Dave, I’ll read your article later but will add one thing that one way to reduce the global warming that nobody believes in–go vegan! Or vegetarian at least.

    Animal husbandry and animal farms for slaughter are the biggest cause of “gases” To that end here’s my contribution what I do for a VEGETARIAN Thanksgiving below.

    If you are vegetarian I just posted how I create vegetarian “turkey and dressing” at the Trough. “How to Finesse Vegetarian Thanksgiving”

    clevergirl

    Heloise

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Dave you read too much! Just kidding. You make good points because I am also against the linking of UN to US politics. That is not conspiracy theory as much as it common sense. Where will the erosion of freedom end? I think that if Americans take recycling more seriously and stop buying so much crap (sorry capitalists) and stop stealing billions from the feds with their fake businesses designed to line their pockets, and the special interests groups, the lobby folks, all that is strictly political, then maybe we would not be in deficit. We could also have more money to fund the health care bill that is NEEDED not one that is FORCED.

    This article includes conspiracy if you think that Obama is seeking to give away the farm to the UN or to the Chicoms (as Rush calls them) or if you think that Al Gore is the high priest of tree huggers and vegetarians.

    Actually Gore has a strong spiritual bend and that’s why people like me like him. I just did not want him and Lieberman to win (boy was I right on that one) and put my vote behind Bush.

    So, Gore’s spirituality got in the way of his winning the election :)

    clevergirl

    PS: the only thing I would say about health care since it is back on the table is this–if we do not increase the providers on the low end (below MD level) and also the MD pool we are risking federal meltdown IMHO.

    There needs to be less waste in the health care system (mostly in the overpricing of stuff to the feds) with people overusing the ER…that can be fixed I think. But if real change is ignored just to push through some crappy wasteful spending bill designed to destroy business then the end must be near.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    And going back to Glenn and his Mt. Ranier observation, how is it any more valid than my observation of a succession of unusually cool years here in Texas? No localized trend can be the basis of a generalized conclusion.

    Mt. Rainier’s not a ‘localized observation’. Glaciers are retreating in the U.S., in Europe, in Antarctica, in South America, and in the Himalayas, and the snows of Mt. Kilimanjaro will be only a memory in less than three decades.

    Here, Dave – educate yourself:

    “In historic times, glaciers grew during the Little Ice Age, a cool period from about 1550 to 1850. Subsequently, until about 1940, glaciers around the world retreated as climate warmed. Glacier recession declined and reversed, in many cases, from 1950 to 1980 as a slight global cooling occurred. Since 1980, glacier retreat has become increasingly rapid and ubiquitous, so much so that it has threatened the existence of many of the glaciers of the world This process has increased markedly since 1995, leading to such bizarre steps as covering sections of Austrian alpine glaciers with plastic to retard melting.”

    ALL of these are easily verifiable, Dave – whatever Big Oil and the Chamber of Commerce try to tell you, they CANNOT hide the worldwide retreat of the glaciers.

    Let the FACTS decide your beliefs, instead of letting your beliefs determine the facts.

  • pablo

    37 Christopher Rose

    Once again Mr. Rose one of the political editors (censors) on this site by characterizing someone that he disagrees with as nuts.

    What Rose also fails so understand about the coming one world global state is that it will be run by the oligarchy, for the oligarchy, and of the oligarchy. The same nefarious individuals that have just carried out the largest theft in human history. But hey Chris globalism sure sounds cute and like an evolving of the body politic, so hey it must be a good thing right?

    As I recall Mr. Rose hails from the UK, I wonder why I never hear him talking about the overt fascist totalitarian big brother government that is taking place there. I thought the USA was bad, but the good ole Queendom sure is starting to look alot like National Socialism, with a Fabian twist.

    Indeed the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, that good old german stock is starting to show its ugly head again. We all remember the Duke of Edinburgh and his love for the nazis Chris.

    Maybe a one world order run by the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha is just what Mr. Rose has in mind. It aint my cup of (tea) Chris, which is why I am so utterly opposed to it. God forbid that anyone of that ilk would ever conspire to create such a world. Yeah I know Chris I am just paranoid pal. You go boy.

    PS How goes the affiliate marketing business? ;)

  • pablo

    Oh and Chris before you attempt to dissect my poor use of grammar and punctuation, let me preempt you a bit pal. I never got out of the 9th grade, and never went to college or as you brits like to call it University either. That being said, I can spot someone naive, ill informed, and bigoted a mile away.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    pablo –

    You might see things differently when you stand on a pile of boulders looking at a glacier a couple miles away up the mountain…and then look at a picture from the 1930’s showing the several-meters-thick glacier covering the very spot you were standing.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Pablo, the chips you have on your shoulders are not only weighing you down but obscuring your vision.

    I am quite sure that there have been many conspiracies over the years of human existence, but probably not any that have succeeded in the long term.

    Of course there are causes for concern about many aspects and trends of contemporary life, but that doesn’t automatically mean there is a conspiracy going on or that things such as a global government would be inherently evil. Assuming that they are is actually nuts.

    Surveying the current state of global politics, it doesn’t take long to see that the prospects of such a global government coming together in a decade, two decades or even ten decades are incredibly low, so it doesn’t seem reasonable to be overly exercised about it when there are actually far more pressing considerations.

    For example, it is certainly true that there is a very strong trend for government to take ever more control of many things and that there is a real danger of us all legislating ourselves out of existence as we seek to address the many problems we face, but nobody seems to have a workable answer for that one.

    I had no intention of criticising your command of English, Pablo. I have no idea what age people are when they are in 9th grade, but if it helps, I left school at the age of 16 and never went to university either.

    That didn’t stop me making the effort to actually learn a variety of things, including how to use language effectively and how to think coherently.

    You may like to comfort yourself with such excuses and rationalisations and cling to your claim that you can at least “spot someone naive, ill informed, and bigoted a mile away”, but it still doesn’t do anything to help you make your case effectively, although it does mean you are actually undermining the argument you try to make, which is kind of ironic.

    As to affiliate marketing, I’ve already told you my situation more than once, so see no point in repeating it as you clearly can’t understand, never mind retain, the information.

  • pablo

    What Climategate does show if it is true, besides the conspiratorial aspect to it, is that these climateologists do not have truth on their side, and hence are resorting to dirty tricks to achieve their objectives.

    Christopher, what you fail to understand is that when you label someone who disagrees with your point of view as nuts, you stop debate, and descend into name calling. It is the oldest trick in the book, and actually does nothing but leave the name caller with smugness, nothing more nothing less. Instead of debating civilly and constructively in a search for truth, you like many of your cohorts on here denigrate and ridicule; that is only because your arguments in general have so little substance, and you are threatened by a view that you cannot substantially refute.

    I often respond in kind, and will continue to do so, as I am not one to spread the other cheek as it were. I do say this and I have said it on this site many times, I have never casted the first stone, but once one is cast I revel in disparaging my foe.

    Your world view in my opinion Chris is utterly naive, and simplistic. I would have no problem with a one world government provided that myself and a grower of rice in Indonesia, and a Rothschild had the same fundamental human rights. Rights that were not delgated by an oligarchy, but were recognized as being unalienable and sovereign. This will NEVER happen. What we will have is a ruling fascist elite and digital feudalism. The fact that you cannot see it for the trees only underlines my basic opinion of you, as being naive.

    The affiliate marketing remark Chris was a jab, which by your own words you failed to recognize, which again underlines my opinion of you as not the brightest kid in the block.

  • caloot

    And going back to Glenn and his Mt. Ranier observation, how is it any more valid than my observation of a succession of unusually cool years here in Texas? No localized trend can be the basis of a generalized conclusion.

    Mt. Rainier’s not a ‘localized observation’. Glaciers are retreating in the U.S., in Europe, in Antarctica, in South America, and in the Himalayas, and the snows of Mt. Kilimanjaro will be only a memory in less than three decades.

    — unfortunatly 50 years is localized information. 100 years is localized information. 1000 years is localized information. Now if you could watch that mountain for maybe more than 1000 years, I might listen to your babble as coherent. BUT… i dont need to.. Because REAL SCIENCE has shown that these warming trends are mere fluctuations of a global climate that has been stable for more than 200,000 years. So..by looking up at ranier and making an assumption of climate that is based on a mere 200 years of history.. (or less.. if you use photographs..to compare) you are being completely subjective. You are not taking in to account the scientificly observed (as in all those people that were vilified for arguing against global warming) climate history, which… BACK TO THE ARTICLE is being shaped (BACK TO THE DISCUSSION) by outside political forces.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    and the snows of Mt. Kilimanjaro will be only a memory in less than three decades.

    Actually, Glenn, one of the truly conspiratorial things I read in all the Hadley emails was a section of exchanges about how they should stop mentioning Kilimanjaro in their discussion of glaciers because they couldn’t explain why glaciers there were in fact NOT shrinking.

    Similarly, there was concern over the reversal of the shrinking of the polar ice cap.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    algore’s recent appearance on Conan O’Brien (November 13) to tout geothermal energy was quite amusing, though not intentionally so.

    During the interview, gore flaunted his ignorance by averring that the temperature of Earth’s core is “millions of degrees.” No one knows definitively what the temperature at the center of Earth is, but educated scientific estimates range from 3400 to 7000 degrees Celsius (6,152-12,632 degrees F).

    Nonetheless, Gore went on to say that to tap the potential geothermal energy, we will have to drill “a couple of kilometers or so down, where the rocks are incredibly hot,” and that now “…they have figured out how to do that with the new drill bits that won’t melt in that heat…”

    Obviously, mr. gore doesn’t know that oil companies regularly drill for oil to depths in the 14,000+ ft. (4.3 Km) range.

    Funny stuff, indeed…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I have no idea what age people are when they are in 9th grade….

    Ninth graders are generally 14 in the States, Chris.

    Looks like the both of you dropped out of school and are graduates of the school of hard knocks. It would explain a trait both of you display – extreme tenaciousness.

    It also appears that Pablo has your number – and that your own sense of “irony” has rusted out.

    From your own views of a world government, I see you have never lived in a country that places a high value on accountability. Your new European empire has leaders chosen in a secret conclave – rather like the papacy. And it seems not to bother you a bit. I don’t know if all Europeans are like that, but Americans certainly are not. And while I am now an Israeli, I learned my politics in the States, and picked up an attitude of demanding accountability there.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Pablo, your smugness and self satisfaction in your opinions is blinding you.

    I didn’t call you a nut, I said it isn’t possible to argue with conspiracy nuts, a fact you are proving ever time you comment.

    It is actually you that has no interest in debate, just sneering and a large amount of impotent and inarticulate anger.

    I’m not remotely threatened by your point of view and have refuted it effortlessly and repeatedly, whereas you have nothing to offer besides empty and unsupported assertions or references to other people who also can’t make their case.

    I KNOW you think my world view is naive, because you say so at every opportunity. What you fail to say, however, is anything of substance to back up your position and then, when challenged, you resort to insults and accusations, which simply makes you sound hysterical.

    I KNOW you think that a world government will be oligarchical, you’ve said so many times. I grant you that it could, but have also pointed out that there is no evidence at all to support the view that a world government is at all imminent.

    Indeed, the trend of our times is for power to be devolved not centralised. It is, in fact, the trend to decentralise power that has contributed to the surveillance society so prevalent in the UK, not a strong controlling centralised government, which rather contradicts your position.

    Finally, I KNOW your affiliate marketing remark was a jab but, like everything else you have to say, it was weak and didn’t bother me in the slightest, particularly as your recall of our conversations are so deeply flawed and mistaken. To have been offended would be like being worried about being attacked by a baby lamb…

    Please do come back in a decade or two, when you might hopefully have grown up a tiny little bit, if you haven’t been arrested by the excessively controlling Thai police before then. It is so ironic that you are troubled by threats to freedom yet have chosen to live in a country with one of the most aggressive legal systems in the world.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, Pablo no more has my number than you do, in fact it is the other way round. You both believe in magical thinking and have beliefs that are based on precisely zero facts.

    With regard to a global government, I know it is like trying to talk Calculus with an infant but let’s try one more time: it could be a problem if it was badly done, just as it could be beneficial if it were well done. However, there is zero evidence to support the notion that there will be such a thing in the lifetime’s of anybody currently on the planet, so it isn’t really a priority to be concerned about.

    To rebut more of your nonsense, there isn’t a European empire; yes, the new positions were chosen by political leaders not by election; the European Union has been struggling to develop a democratic process for many decades now and it is an ongoing process where much remains to be done; its new President was needed to allow the EU to speak with one voice on global matters, where it has clearly been underperforming.

    Many people in Europe want to see greater accountability, indeed, it is one of the most common causes for concern as we are faced with the growth of the EU.

    These are facts, Ruvy, rather than the empty headed sneers you and Pablo seem to prefer.

    The two of you see nothing except what you want to see, unlike many others who will accept what there is to be seen regardless of their own opinions about it. I’ll pick the latter camp every time…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    the new positions were chosen by political leaders not by election; the European Union has been struggling to develop a democratic process for many decades now and it is an ongoing process where much remains to be done; its new President was needed to allow the EU to speak with one voice on global matters, where it has clearly been underperforming.

    Many people in Europe want to see greater accountability, indeed, it is one of the most common causes for concern as we are faced with the growth of the EU.

    It’s nice to see you express a point of view rather than merely deflecting what others say, which is what most of comments 51 and 52 are. There is hope for you yet.

    You write about world governments: it could be a problem if it was badly done, just as it could be beneficial if it were well done.

    Well, yeah, any idiot could see that. But I have an Idea for you to chaw on, a uniquely American idea – one that too many Americans have forgotten in their rush for the bread, circuses and bennies of the declining American empire.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

    Something to chaw on, Chris, something you do well to remember in the light of the new European Empire having just obtained a “sovereign”. The forgoing was written because some Englishmen had had enough of a “sovereign”.

  • Aaron Truax

    Thank goodness for this discovery. GW hysteria is just the latest in typically socialist, globalist propaganda aimed at destroying the social dynamic and industrial base of the US. About 40 years ago with the Liberal embrace of books like “Future Shock” and “The Population Bomb” the globalist Left began entrenching themselves based on the false assumptions of global disaster wrought by (US) industry.

  • zingzing

    pcisbs: “zingzing, obviously you have invested much time and effort into the Global warming hoax.”

    only the same amount as you do. although, as someone stated above, if i’m wrong, it doesn’t matter. if you’re wrong, you ought to be strung up. but all i personally do is recycle. which, if you don’t do, i’ll shit on your lawn.

  • KL

    Okay guys, opinion is divided as ever but quick question:

    How many of you guys that think man made Global warming is a lie also think Loose Change is credible film about 9/11 being an inside job?

  • KL

    Remember they said that thermite particles discovered in an apartment, a block away from Ground Zero was the “smoking gun” that 9/11 was an inside job……WAS IT HELL!

    Now they are saying that these e-mails taken out of context are a smoking gun………come on people, which ever side of the fence you are on this debate, don’t let your opinion about global tarnish your reasoning talents.
    If there is a “smoking gun” this is definitely NOT it!

  • Clavos

    …9/11 being an inside job?

    Oh it was an “inside” job alright. Hatched inside the Saudi Royal Palace and the Bin Laden family estate.

  • KL

    Clavos Errr you’re proof?

    Loose Change?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “all i personally do is recycle”

    That’s bullshit for the most part. Ask Penn & Teller

  • MysticStrummer

    It’ll be sad if the selective leak of these emails undermines the progress being made toward clean energy. I remember reading last year that the models (there are multiple models by the way, because the weight that should be given to different variables is unknown, something climatoligists have always admitted) predicted a long leveling off until the evidence for warming returns. From what I’ve read, if there is no new record planetary temp by around 2018-2020, then the science can truly be brought into question. Meanwhile, the skeptics continue to argue for dumping crap into the atmosphere and actually think they are intelligent for doing so. Stupid humans, man… what can you do?

  • zingzing

    el bicho–it’s bullshit that i recycle? or that recycling helps anything? or that recycling by itself is useless? or that what i think is recycled is actually recycled?

  • KL

    MysticStrummer: this whole incident hasn’t really been the big “mushroom cloud, nail in the coffin” that some excitable deniers had first exclaimed.

    Yes it has sparked up debate in the blogo shere and internet forums but in terms of main stream media, its impact been pretty limited.

    The reason for this lack of attention from the main media?
    Well its pretty clear to me that journalists and newspaper editors know full well all the tricks of the trade, and they
    may well have used similar selective reporting methods and techniques themselves, and hence they know that the publication of these emails out of their context offers the world very little REAL information.

    You know what they say “you can’t kid a kidder!”

    Whilst the blogasphere might be getting excited about this incident the main stream media clearly are less than impressed about the so called “revelations”.

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    I’m sorry to interrupt… but why the hysterical obsession with “smoking guns”? Is that an North-American/”Red State” thing, or just some homoerotic obsession with pretending to discuss things like you’re a cable-news anchor?

  • Paul Revere

    It’s official the Climate Control Center for the Temperature readings for earth have been declared triffled and manipulated and inaccurate for atleast 20 years, some have been recorded and reported to go back to even manipulations from 1961 etc.
    This exposes Climate Change and Global Warming as a complete Fraud! Associated Press,Reuters, Infowars.com, Prisonplanet.com are all reporting of the fraud that the organizations like the United Nations, Al Gore David Suzuki, John Holdren, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Green Peace, WWF and all the Environmentalist organizations that have been lieing to the whole of the world for years! Climate Change is a big Fraud!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    Many people in Europe want to see greater accountability, indeed, it is one of the most common causes for concern as we are faced with the growth of the EU.

    Well, now that you Brits have put two BNP representatives in the EU parliament I’m sure it will all be okay.

    As for the “smoking gun” as I hope I made clear earlier, these documents are not a definitive smoking gun. They contain lots of bits of troubling information, but they are not evidence of a wholesale conspiracy. For the most part the malfeasance they document is relatively minor.

    Dave

  • KL

    Paul Revere nothing has been made official, and certainly not due to this incident.

    The only thing that has been made official is how little it takes for some on the blogoshere to get excited about very little!

  • KL

    Well let’s here from one the actual Scientist involved in this e-mail expose :

    Trenberth, a lead author on the 2001 and 2007 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change assessments, said he had found 102 of his own e-mails posted online. “I personally feel violated,” he said. “I’m appalled at the very selective use of the e-mails, and the fact they’ve been taken out of context.”

    In one of the stolen e-mails, Trenberth is quoted as saying “we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.”

    He said the comment is presented by skeptics as evidence scientists can’t explain some trends that appear to contradict their stance on climate change. Trenberth explained his phrase was actually contained in a paper he wrote about the need for better monitoring of global warming to explain the anomalies ” in particular improved recording of rising sea surface temperatures.

    [Dead links deleted]

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    KL – nice find with Trenberth document. Can you please re-post the link again in full?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I don’t deflect what others say, I debunk it, especially when it is unsubstantiated rot.

    There is precious little of worth in mainstream contemporary politics to discuss as the main parties become increasingly alike and there doesn’t seem to be much interest in honesty or truthfulness in either politics or our wider culture. Both are long overdue a major renewal.

    This is something you appear to be touching upon with your lengthy quote but, as you are part of the deadwood of history rather than a herald of something new, I remain puzzled as to what point you are trying to make…

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    Found it:
    Trenberth, K. E., 2009: An imperative for adapting to climate change: Tracking Earth’s global energy. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 1, 19-27. DOI 10.1016/j.cosust.2009.06.001.

    PDF is here. KL’s “quote” is taken from an AP story here.

    But that paper doesn’t contain the word “travesty”, or the phrase “account for the lack of warming”. The email quote wasn’t taken from it.

  • KL

    Tofu Charlie:

    Essentially Trenberth isn’t saying that he quoted himself from his own paper in an e-mail correspondence (Why would he do that, remember this was a private e-mail) but he is saying that what he wrote in the e-mail alludes to what he had been suggesting in the paper.

    Essentially the e-mail leak is pretty much redundant as far as the Treberth quotes.

  • Clavos

    Clavos Errr you’re proof?

    Loose Change?

    Re-read my post again, KL. What I’m saying is that it was an attack by the Saudi royal family and the Bin Ladens, NOT that it was hatched within the US government. Proof? Every damn one of them was a Saudi, and Saudi Wahabbis are actively funding the Islamic terrorists, while US presidents continue kissing Saudi asses.

    Nobody in the US government is smart enough to pour piss out of a boot that has the instructions printed on the heel.

    Hell, nobody in the USA is.

  • zingzing

    “Hell, nobody in the USA is.”

    i assume you’re in mexico then?

  • KL

    Clavos:

    Fair comment on 9/11 not being an inside job, we can agree on that.

    Although your Saudi connection in terms of funding is a little tenuous.

    The Saudi’s wouldn’t want to bite the hand that feeds them.
    Think about it, the last thing the Saudis wanted was the US stirring up trouble in the Middle East and by controlling the Iraq oil supply, keeping the price of oil lower.

    Bin Laden is a maverick who had his own agenda in fighting the Americans.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    zing, as far as I know P&T have made no specific charges about your behavior. on their show they claimed most of what we recycle is not worth recycling. the entire episode can be found online. google it.

  • http://catastrophist.wordpress.com/ Tofu Charlie

    KL — some pretty weak spin from Trenberth then. The quote is pretty damning… he’s saying one thing in public and another in private.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    It’s important to note that Bin Laden and most of al Qaeda are hostile to the Saudi government and royal family and would like to topple them as much as they would like to bring down the US.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    On Kilimanjaro – look at old pictures, and look at newer pictures…and then decide who’s telling the truth.

    I remember seeing Kilimanjaro while on a safari back in ’94 – it makes Mount Rainier look awful small.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    caloot –

    You at least tried to make a cogent argument…but the glaciers grew over tens of thousands of years…and the vast ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica took millions of years to develop.

    As I stated earlier – and neither you nor Dave can refute this – YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO BE WRONG. Why? Because if you ARE wrong and we do nothing…a truly global catastrophe. BUT if we do everything the climate-change scientists claim we need to do but they turn out to be wrong…NO catastrophe.

    You’re gambling with millions of lives, caloot. Millions.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, I just know what the climate scientists said in their emails. From the context it’s not clear what time period they were talking about, but I think that from the context they’re at least saying that the glaciers on Kilimanjaro have not retreated in the last decade.

    This article on glaciers might be informative. The evidence does seem to bear out the claim that while some glaciers are shrinking others are growing.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Also of interest might be this link site on glacial growth. It’s very up to date. Includes reports as of a week ago.

    Dave

  • STM

    I differ slightly from Clav in his view on 9/11.

    I believe it was cooked up a pack of lunatics now living in a cave, and whose favoured headdress is a rolled up, chequered tea-towel like the ones you buy in Oz for a buck fifty.

    They probably bought the tea-towels at the same place they got the box-cutters.

    One of the problems with Americans believing this stuff is that they give too much credence to the view that the US military and its appendages in the secret services and law enforcement agencies are hyper-vigilant and incapable of making a total bollocks out of things.

    It’s a mistake to believe that the US military and the US civil authorities can’t make a complete balls-up somewhere along the line. They have, often, and they do. It goes with the world-policeman turf, unfortunately.

    The truth is, these nuts use the very freedoms we cherish in the West against us. That is, freedom of movement, freedom of travel, freedom to study, to buty what you want, freedom to go unnoticed whilst plotting mass murder.

    Who in the world thought would have thought these madmen could dream up something so simple, yet so devastating?

    Part of the problem … we don’t operate like a death cult, therefore we don’t (or didn’t then) plan against them.

    I have no doubt Mr bin-liner cooked it up along with a few cronies via satphone and computer from somewhere in Afghanistan.

    Which is the reason we are all embroiled there now, and collectively getting the living sh.it shot out of us whilst forlornly hoping for the best.

  • zingzing

    funny how dave trumpets a few glaciers in norway while his own city shattered heat records this summer… hilarious. he’s the guy who declares with glee to his friends that he got laid last night when they all know he has aids.

  • Arch Conservative

    What’s also funny is that I remember reading several stories this summer about record lows all across the nation.

  • pablo

    I don’t know if any of you caught charlatan Al gore on The Conan O’brian show the other night. During the interview Gore said that the core of the earth was several million degrees. Now that is funny, even hotter than the sun Al baby.

    Zingzing,

    You cling to your position in the face of overwhelming evidence of a great hoax. If these liars who’s email’s have been hacked had nothing to hide, and their science true, they would never had needed to resort to low down dirty political style tricks. Again all you have to do is go back to the Club of Rome in the 70’s where they clearly said that they were going to use the threat of global warming as a scam. Your posting on re-cycling was redundant and not germane to the issue at hand.

    One of the biggest problems with the great global wearming hoax is that real environmental problems are now all but being ignored. Things such as crops that are being genetically altered, the poisoning of our waterways, the spraying of the atmosphere, and a whole host of other environmental problems. Chicken Little was wrong zing, and so are you.

    Did any of you catch Al Gore airbrushing the cover of his new book? Talk about a fake.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Your ‘iceagenow’ page you used for a reference is full of crap. It says “Nisqually glacier [on Mount Rainier] grew three feet thicker between 1994-97″.

    Crap. Pure unadulterated crap.

    I’ve gone glacier-diving inside the Nisqually glacier – and that’s truly an experience.

    But what’s the PROOF that your reference hasn’t a clue? BECAUSE IT TAKES A THREE-YEAR BUMP and makes a grand assumption based on a paltry three years’ data.

    Dave, please do yourself a favor and use credible references…like this one from the Quaternary Research Center, University of Washington that uses RESEARCH and OBSERVABLE EVIDENCE and SCHOLARSHIP with data from the first measurement of the Nisqually glacier in 1857 until now.

    Which factors are NOT part of the references you’ve been using. As with the travesty of your reference’s claim concerning the Nisqually glacier, the references you’re using are using pinpoints of data to make their case…but they do NOT look at the OVERALL view, at the BIG picture.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    And here’s something else to consider: since 1997, the world’s oceans have risen an average of about 1.5 inches.

    Big whoop, right? What’s the big fat hairy deal about a lousy inch-and-a-half?

    1 – where’s that water coming from? It can’t be coming from within the earth’s crust, and it’s not coming from space…so it must be coming from ON the earth, right?

    So if the glaciers and the ice caps are ADVANCING as you would have us believe (never mind that on August 21, 2007, for the first time in recorded human history, the long-sought-for Northwest Passage was declared passable for ships without the need for an icebreaker), then HOW is the sea level rising?

    2 – That paltry inch-and-a-half covering 70% of the earth’s surface also represents something else – HEAT. Because this 1.5 inches represents billions of gallons of water that used to be ice. That water now stores heat…which will be used to fuel weather such as hurricanes. What’s worse is that this is a vicious cycle – higher oceanic water level leads to more heat which leads to more ice melting which leads to a higher oceanic water level…you do get the picture.

    BUT WHERE’S THE HURRICANES?

    3 – Easy…for those who have the curiosity and determination to find out. According to NASA, the sun is currently the quietest it’s been a century, with a 50-year low in solar wind pressure. Not only that, but the sun’s brightness has dropped by 0.02% at visible wavelengths and 6% at extreme UV wavelengths since the solar minimum of 1996, and solar radio emissions are at a 55-year low.

    SO DOESN’T THIS MEAN THAT THE SUN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ‘GLOBAL WARMING’?

    No. This DOES mean that the sun’s lowered energy output is mitigating global warming somewhat…but only somewhat.

    When – not if, but WHEN – the sun grows more active, the global warming ‘debate’ will be answered…and tragically so.

  • zingzing

    pablo: “You cling to your position in the face of overwhelming evidence of a great hoax.”

    pablo, you’d claim all the world’s trees were dead if a leaf landed on your shoulder.

    “Your posting on re-cycling was redundant and not germane to the issue at hand.”

    eh? global warming… recycling… someone asking me what i have invested in it… i say not much… do you know what germane means? actually, i don’t see the connection between your question and the rest of your paragraph, other than general ridiculousness.

    “Chicken Little was wrong zing, and so are you.”

    yeah, those things are being ignored. never heard of them. i seriously have no idea what you’re talking about anymore.

    “Did any of you catch Al Gore airbrushing the cover of his new book? Talk about a fake.”

    not sure what you’re on about here, but if you think any book cover gets published without some airbrushing, you’re in for a surprise.

    pablo. i don’t get it. you can look at an email and see that a glacier didn’t melt, but you can see the fucking glacier melting. it’s a fucking huge chunk of ice. just because it’s obvious makes it less interesting for you, i guess.

  • Blacksmith

    Thank God! MAYBE, this will slap some common sense into the millions of worshipers who seem to have misplaced theirs. I’m all for a clean planet but c’mon! I can’t believe it ever went this far. Thanks for your contribution Mr. Nalle.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    I see none of the conservatives could intelligently reply to the evidence presented in #88.

    But I’ve gotten used to that – it’s just like in the oh-so-scandalous e-mails, where I pointed out that the e-mails indicated that a climate-change SKEPTIC had altered data to try to tear down the climate change scientists. Did any of the BC conservatives address that issue? Of course not.

    I guess lies are okay with the BC conservatives, as long as those lies support what THEY think. That’s the secret to Fox News’ business model, it seems….

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Thank God!

    You’re welcome.

    I see none of the conservatives could intelligently reply to the evidence presented in #88.

    And intelligent conservatives won’t reply. This entire exercise is another example of how a conservative cause has been usurped by progressives because conservative shave lost their way.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “What’s also funny is that I remember reading several stories this summer about record lows all across the nation.”

    What’s even funnier is that climate change is about extreme weather conditions not just heat so you are actually giving credence to the argument by pointing out record lows

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Don’t matter. It’s all over in 2012, and we’ll all be dead.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dave,

    What are you trying to pull? The Al Gore link you have there says nothing like this:

    Even former Vice President Al Gore, who has filled the role of High Priest for the global warming movement, admitted earlier this month that the science was not entirely convincing, that C02 probably did not cause the global warming he had previously claimed, and that the fight against pollution was more a spiritual than scientific one.

    A summary of that article: People won’t be moved by facts alone, we must reach out to them spirituality. Period.

    So where is the link the Gore recantation you suggest?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    81

    From the context it’s not clear what time period they were talking about, but I think that from the context they’re at least saying that the glaciers on Kilimanjaro have not retreated in the last decade.

    I think you are mistaken, Dave. The article you link to in this post, summarized: Kilimanjaro’s shrinkage is hypothesized to be due to deforestation rather than global warming. I don’t see where it says anything like Kilimanjaro hasn’t shrunk in 10 years.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    94 – Silas,

    I believe you. It would be just my luck to quit smoking 2 years before I will die from something else.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And here’s something else to consider: since 1997, the world’s oceans have risen an average of about 1.5 inches.

    Which is about 34 inches less than what was predicted in the late 1990s for the next decade.

    Big whoop, right? What’s the big fat hairy deal about a lousy inch-and-a-half?

    In the interest of honesty you might also want to mention that the rise in sea levels is not uniform worldwide. What’s more, the current thinking on GW is that it will not raise sea levels, but will actually lower sea levels, so this is not a good line of argument for you to pursue.

    1 – where’s that water coming from? It can’t be coming from within the earth’s crust, and it’s not coming from space…so it must be coming from ON the earth, right?

    Well, it could come from the atmosphere, which is the current leading theory for where sea water comes from and goes to.

    So if the glaciers and the ice caps are ADVANCING as you would have us believe

    I see you can’t make an argument without misrepresenting my statements. I didn’t say that they were advancing, I said that some (largely on a regional basis) were advancing while other areas were receding. And that’s supported by extensive evidence.

    (never mind that on August 21, 2007, for the first time in recorded human history, the long-sought-for Northwest Passage was declared passable for ships without the need for an icebreaker), then HOW is the sea level rising?

    It’s not rising as dramatically as predicted, and the fact is that because of displacement, arctic ice melt doesn’t raise sea level all that much.

    2 – That paltry inch-and-a-half covering 70% of the earth’s surface also represents something else – HEAT. Because this 1.5 inches represents billions of gallons of water that used to be ice. That water now stores heat…which will be used to fuel weather such as hurricanes. What’s worse is that this is a vicious cycle – higher oceanic water level leads to more heat which leads to more ice melting which leads to a higher oceanic water level…you do get the picture.

    Which leads to more evaporation, precipitation, cloud cover and cooling, which leads to the next cycle in which we see ice caps and glaciers expand, etc. All of the things you describe can just as easily be part of a natural cycle as some unusual event.

    BUT WHERE’S THE HURRICANES?

    3 – Easy…for those who have the curiosity and determination to find out. According to NASA, the sun is currently the quietest it’s been a century, with a 50-year low in solar wind pressure. Not only that, but the sun’s brightness has dropped by 0.02% at visible wavelengths and 6% at extreme UV wavelengths since the solar minimum of 1996, and solar radio emissions are at a 55-year low.

    SO DOESN’T THIS MEAN THAT THE SUN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ‘GLOBAL WARMING’?

    It could mean that the sun plays a role in the current cooling trend. And since this is such an unusual period of low solar activity we have no idea how long it will go on or how low solar activity will go.

    No. This DOES mean that the sun’s lowered energy output is mitigating global warming somewhat…but only somewhat.

    When – not if, but WHEN – the sun grows more active, the global warming ‘debate’ will be answered…and tragically so.

    Why will it be tragic? It may take years and lead to cooling which will offset warming for generations. You really have no idea what is going to happen and your arguments are based almost entirely on faith rather than reason.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    If this whole flap about hacked e-mails manages to sidetrack the treaty you fools are about to sign in Köbnhavn, good! The treaty you are all set to bind yourselves to is similar to the treaty of Versailles. You will accept blame for the condition of the world, and you will be stuck paying for it – whether you have the money to or not.

    Since this alleged argument over science is degenerating into spiritual flights of fancy, be aware of the fact that yes, the water is rising, yes, the glaciers are retreating, and yet, you do not have the temperatures that the global warming priesthood would have you expect. Similarly, you do not have the ice age the former priesthood would have had you expect.

    This e-mail hacking controversy proves something essential about Big Science and their arrogant orthodoxy, as represented by their militant atheists and others. For all of their claims to truth and objectivity, they are nothing but a magic cult, a pack of fakirs lying through their teeth. O! Great scientist-wala, bring out you book of statistics and we will toss the coins of the I Ching to test their truth!

    There is a hell of a lot going on out there than you fools are not aware of. Do you seriously that you have figured out the weather – or patterns of climate change? Over Time, Man has been here but an eyeblink. This planet has been here for 4 billion years and the universe for 15 billion years. What do you think you know?

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    When a Roman Catholic Bishop trashes a Kennedy, you know the end of times is near. It’s amazing what captivates a citizen of the world these days. Adam Lambert humps a male dancer in the face, the far right goes spastic. Carrie Prejean makes 8 masturbating bare tapes and they remain conspicuously silent. Barack Obama tries to forge a new era in reasonable, compassionate health care and his enemies cry foul with death camps. What is this? Soylent Green?

    There IS a climate problem. It stands to reason that there would be when you consider how much pollution we pump out daily. There IS a health care problem and we’re not convinced because 50 cents out of every dollar we spend on health care goes to advertising and the wallets of politicians ion Washington. When an insurance lobbyist can throw a half million into the campaign war chest of some idiot from East Bum Hole North Carolina, somebody has to stand up and ask WHAT THE F&#K!

    Now, say that the entire global warming issue is skewed. Should that prevent us from finding cleaner energy? Should that prevent us from finding more efficient ways of generating energy? Should that prevent us from changing our diets which make us fatter by the day? Oh, I forgot. If we started doing the right thing in this world, the members of Congress would end up being middle class citizens like the rest of us.

    As much as we beat up on Ruvy around here, he’s made some fine points over the years. Sure, he comes across as angry and irrational at times. But you know what? I’m getting to that point. I just cannot believe that a society of supposed intelligent, sentient beings are completely hoodwinked into believing that the United States is Shangri-La and the envy of the remainder of the world. Barack Obama was our last best hope. He was our last shot of getting things right. We blew it. A couple of years from now, God willing, I’ll be saying I told you so in 18pt type.

    Oh, and speaking of global warming and the hot air which pollutes it — the right reverend bishop of the Diocese of Providence is only trying to make a name for himself with the Curia. All he wants out of all this is a Cardinal’s hat and a pretty new red dress. He’s an opportunistic piece of work who plays the Rhode Island political scene like Nero fiddled over a burning Rome. But, then again, anyone who is intimate with the Diocese of Providence is well aware of the Roman Catholic Church’s relationship with Rhode Island politics, Rhode Island law enforcement and the mob. Think Chicago and Louisiana are bad? Rhode Island’s political system would have made Al Capone cringe.

  • Cannonshop

    Interesting Material, Dave. You’re not going to convince the people who’ve already invested their Faith in it-one way or the other, mind, but interesting nonetheless.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    I see you’re still not making arguments based on fact. For instance,

    It’s not rising as dramatically as predicted, and the fact is that because of displacement, arctic ice melt doesn’t raise sea level all that much.

    FYI, that’s a faster rise in sea level than the most dire predictions of the nineties…and you still obviously don’t understand how the physics of heat transfer are affected by billions of gallons of water that used to be ice.

    I see you can’t make an argument without misrepresenting my statements. I didn’t say that they were advancing, I said that some (largely on a regional basis) were advancing while other areas were receding. And that’s supported by extensive evidence.

    AND I SHOT DOWN YOUR ‘EVIDENCE’ IN MY POST, Dave. You’re STILL not using credible references! Come on! With all your education, do you still not know the difference between an argument built on three years’ of measurements, and an argument based on GENERATIONS of measurements, with MANY more variables taken into account?

    But you don’t care, do you? All that you care about is that one site supports what you think, and who needs all the scholarship of the other sites, right?

    Why will it be tragic? It may take years and lead to cooling which will offset warming for generations. You really have no idea what is going to happen and your arguments are based almost entirely on faith rather than reason.

    ‘Faith rather than reason’? THIS from a guy who can’t see the difference between the quality of the scholarship between references? But I forget – you’re also the guy who said that a certain poll was unreliable, never mind that the best political statistician in the country vouched for the reliability of the pollsters.

    Sorry for the bitter tone, but you could be so much better than this, Dave – IF you would have the courage to question your own beliefs, to demand that the facts must determine your belief.

    You remind me so much of my brother, a libertarian like yourself. I love him dearly, but like you he does not have the courage to challenge his own beliefs, and to change his beliefs if the facts show him in error.

  • pablo

    zingzing 9 you said:

    “i’m going to let the story develop some more before i pass any judgment. people have been burned that way.”

    Still waiting for this story to develop, I would love to hear your thoughts about it now. :)

  • zingzing

    shrug. haven’t heard much. oh, wait. here’s a meme (word for stupid):

    ‹^› ‹(•¿•)› ‹^›

    :( :) smiley. emoticon! dragons? fish!!!!!es!!!!!!

    so far, this story isn’t working out as you’d expected, is it?

  • zingzing

    why don’t we just wait til after the conference to see how this changes things? and why don’t we agree that doing good things for the environment is never a bad idea? and why don’t we agree that big business doesn’t have our best interests at heart?

  • Arch Conservative

    “and why don’t we agree that big business doesn’t have our best interests at heart?”

    Well the moonbats in Congress who support cap and trade certainly don’t have our best economic interests at heart. That’s for sure. Who cares if your electric bill triples….as long as we can be down with Al Gore……….

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Fucking hell, Ruvy, probably unintentionally, tries his hand at comedy:

    “this alleged argument over science is degenerating into spiritual flights of fancy”

    and “This e-mail hacking controversy proves something essential about Big Science and their arrogant orthodoxy, as represented by their militant atheists and others. For all of their claims to truth and objectivity, they are nothing but a magic cult, a pack of fakirs lying through their teeth. O! Great scientist-wala, bring out you book of statistics and we will toss the coins of the I Ching to test their truth!

    There is a hell of a lot going on out there than you fools are not aware of. Do you seriously that you have figured out the weather – or patterns of climate change? Over Time, Man has been here but an eyeblink. This planet has been here for 4 billion years and the universe for 15 billion years. What do you think you know?”

    This from a man that lives by a cult dogma that is only 6,000 years old and he thinks it can explain things better than present day knowledge!

    Oh, how we laughed!!

  • pablo

    Clavos and Nalle 58 and 78 respectively:

    “…9/11 being an inside job?

    Oh it was an “inside” job alright. Hatched inside the Saudi Royal Palace and the Bin Laden family estate.” Clavos

    “It’s important to note that Bin Laden and most of al Qaeda are hostile to the Saudi government and royal family and would like to topple them as much as they would like to bring down the US.” Nalle

    After all these years, I find a significant political issue on which these two disagree on, how utterly ironic that it happens to be on 9/11.

    Leaving aside Nalle’s obviously naive viewpoint, I find Clavos’s rather interesting for a person such as him. You see Nalle’s viewpoint leaves nothing to discuss, as he buys into the govt story lock stock and barrel. Clavos on the other hand has come out openly and said he believes that the Sauds and by extension the Saudi government were behind the attack. I can’t help but wonder how he reconciles this viewpoint with his other political views.

    Clavos if the Sauds were behind it as you claim, then your own government has lied to you, deceived you, and let the true criminals go free. If you really believe this to be true Clavos isn’t it incumbent on you as a concerned citizen to raise the alarm, and demand action?
    Does it bother you that we attacked the wrong country, and are now protecting their opium fields?

    Does it bother you that your own government to this day has allowed for over 3000 of your fellow citizens murderers and conspirators to go free?

    Also if you believe as you espoused then the whole bullshit about Osama being a renegade kinda falls apart too, doesn’t it pal? And if that is the case, doesnt the possibility exist that maybe osama was colluding with his families holdings with the Carlyle Group, and perhaps it is an inside job. I know thats a bit of a leap for you to take Clavy, but you are already out of the pack bro.

    I will give you this much Clavy at least you believe that the government is bald face lying to you, that is a start ;).

    God forbid you might be watching “Loose Change” soon or reading “The New Pearl Harbor” Paul falls down on the floor rotfl=rolling on the floor laughing. Thanks for a great post revealing your thoughts Clavy, I did get a kick out of it.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    In case anyone is interested, here is a pretty good article on “Climategate.”

    Dan(Miller)

  • pablo

    Oh I almost forgot Clavos it is my belief that the Sauds dont even spit without Washington’s or London’s Ok. Kim Philby saw to that.;)

  • pablo

    Nice article Dan, thanks for sharing it.

  • jerrystroud

    All the Global Warming pundits dimiss the Sun as a source of any temperature swings even though these cycles been known and recorded of hundreds of years. Now with the scandal of “data” manipulation and a conspiracy to to bury contrary data, maybe the religion of GW will loose political support.

  • pablo

    I wonder if zingzing read that article, particularly the last sentence. “This is the scandal of the century. It needs to be thoroughly investigated—and the culprits need to be brought to justice.” Somehow I bet he would disagree.

    I agree with the last sentence wholeheartedly.

  • jerrystroud

    Regarding Kilimanjaro (Wikipedia excerpt) Make note that magma is just below the summit. For GWs, magma is HOT MOLTON ROCK! Duh! Could that be part of the melting snow observation?

    Volcanic conditions
    While it is inactive, Kilimanjaro has fumaroles that emit gas in the crater on the main summit of Kibo. Scientists concluded in 2003 that molten magma is just 400 metres (1,310 ft) below the summit crater. Several collapses and landslides have occurred on Kibo in the past, one creating the area known as the Western Breach.

  • John Lake

    Great Article. And so much for the Nobel Prize.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Dave, If you or anyone cares to or can listen Rush is doing a great rant on this today. He is calling Obama out on his promise to restore science to its rightful place. Meaning that Obama should investigate and cutoff those who have propagated this “hoax” as Rush is calling it.

    I went to Galveston for some worthless science workshops. One woman, a professor, a real leftist, was lecturing to teachers. Well before I and other simply walked out on her “lecture” I asked her about the role of the sun and global warming. Citing that sunspot activity has peaked dramatically in the past 10 years, I asked her why scientists seemed to be ignoring its role in global warming and environmental impact. She said some ole lame shit and I got up and walked out.

    If this hoax could be proven then a lot of prof heads would roll.

    Heloise

    PS: Dave can you or somebody edit a new pending article I have on Murdoch and Microsoft news?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    I did a simple tweet a while back “Cap and Trade–defending the indefensible” meaning that the US would get screwed without grease if this thing passes.

    It is all tied into Kyoto or Copenhagen and we know that they love anal sex over there! LOL

    Heloise

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Even though I have learned nothing new from this article its content needs to trump talk about Palin and Al Gore’s book circuit in the MSM.

    What will the MSM do about this story? That’s what I want to know. So a follow up piece would be in order, i.e., if the MSM plays ball with this story.

    Heloise

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Rush Throws Down the Gauntlet

    Unfolding and breaking news are about some hacked emails (link at The Trough), discovered Thursday, and Obama’s promise to restore science to its rightful place are among the hot topics that Rush Limbaugh is doing a great rant on his radio talk show today. He has simply thrown down the gauntlet and calls the MSM one universe of lies and the universe real people inhabit as the one with the truth.

    The controversy now dubbed “climategate” centers around some hacked emails of Mann and others that suggest that climate change and global warming are a hoax or made up data. Rush said that the whole concept of climate change is a fraud. He has called out Obama and the Al Gore’s of the world by ranting that: “there is no climate change..no man made global warming…how else can it be said?” He is so funny he said that the MSM should be looking for Al Gore right now to explain it all.

    Now if we can reverse engineer global warming and working backwards see if the “hoax” stands up to scientific scrutiny as Rush rants that the science behind global warming does not hold up to scientific scrutiny.

    Heloise

  • Abe

    The fact some Elete Idiot who doesn’t know how to make a hard earned dollar will tell me how I have to pay for all this Global warming garbage. In it self is murder beacause they ein telling us they are just taxing us to death.

  • Gene T

    As for not understanding the “why”. Try this on for size. Check out how many of the political elite (elected representatives)have invested heavily in the “green” companies that stand to get billions of our tax dollars once Cap and Tax is passed. And, that is only the U.S. for starters……….WHY??

    M-O-N-E-Y G-R-E-E-D P-O-W-E-R

    That’s WHY.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Gene, some bloggers are telling stock holders in green tech to SELL. Rush said it but not sure it’s true.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Rush Limbaugh giving financial advise. Scary. That’s like Bernie Madoff selling Oxycontin. Rush Limbaugh and Massengill have one thing in common. They’re both douches.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is some more trash from those blasted climate skeptics who just won’t shut up.

    Oh well, if “science” doesn’t conform to politics, what good is it?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Dan, a wise old man I used to play chess with on Sunday mornings after my paper route said something very profound. If it ain’t good for your lungs, it ain’t good for Earth. Sounds like good ol’ common sense, doesn’t it?

  • Derek

    Glenn, are you really naive? How old are you 10? Sounds like you don’t think banning DDT caused the death of Millions of Malaria stricken africans. Since by your logic, Banning DDT saved lives in America, but keeping it would have lost lives………

    You really think that creating a tax out of thin air, paying money into government entities with little to no responsibility or compassion to western ideals, is really not going to impact anything?

    How about you give me 50% of your check book, and I’ll keep it safe for you, you CAN’T AFFORD NOT TO, and if nothing happens to you, I’ll get to keep the 50%, and all is good.

  • Arch Conservative

    Climategate?

    I prefer Climaquiddick!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    You just had to cross that bridge, Arch, didn’t you? And a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

  • pablo

    125 Silas

    And what does that have to do with carbon dioxide?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dan, your Powerline link raises a very important issue. If they’re not tracking SO2 from the developing world we may be looking at some serious climate surprises. It was SO2 production which led to the predictions of an ice age in the 1970s and if China and India produce enough of it global cooling might be the threat, not global warming.

    Dave

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Pablo, the old man said it with regard to a suicide which had just happened in town. A dude went into his garage, turned on the car, and died. Ol’ man Wilder made the statement I quoted.

    Bottom line? We still need to clean up our acts.

  • pablo

    Silas I still do not see what that has to do with carbon dioxide.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Pablo, we’re too focused on greenhouse gasses. Vehicular pollution is a problem. Our wasteful nature, dependence on dirty energy, our carnivorous meat eating habits, so on and so forth. I really don’t give a rat’s ass about this whole email scandal. Take a look at our landfills. Breathe in the smog of Los Angeles. Eat a petroleum soaked duck. If people don’t want to talk about global warming, then at least agree on common respect and cleaning up our waste. Is that so damned unreasonable? The point I am trying to make seems clear to me, perhaps I am suffering from early onset Alzheimer’s.

  • pablo

    Silas,

    I have never said or implied that pollution is not a problem. I just don’t happen to subscribe to the theory that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, not to mention the fact that plants need it to breathe.

  • pablo

    I mean for photosynthesis.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    True, it is good for plants which brings me to my next cause – HEMP. Why are we allowing our government to waste up to a billion dollars fighting the cultivation and sale of hemp? This plant has so much versatility beyond the obvious.

    Make pot legal – less money going to the pharmaceuticals for Viagra, etc; there would be a dramatic rise in sin tax revenues; and, last but not least, we’d have a great new energy resource. Legalizing pot would save lives – especially for those who would be victims of the Mexican cartels.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Oh, and another reason for legalizing pot? It makes Arch tolerable (from the smoker’s perspective).

  • pablo

    Clavos108

    No retort? Figures.

  • Zedd

    The Obama administration had appeared willing to sign away a great deal of U..S sovereignty

    Are you alright? A GREAT DEAL…???

    Goodbye American sovereignty. That beautiful bill of rights is going to be superseded by the global collective.

    OMG *insert psycho music*

    I only hope we, as a society, can stand true to our beliefs in the power of freedom.

    Do you guys have to be nuts??? I mean can we not just have a two party system with opposing ideologies without the nutdom. Why have the Republicans turned into kooks???? Help us all.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Silas, Comment #125 — Yes, humans (and other animals) are screwing up the environment, big time. Once upon a time, there just weren’t enough of us to make much difference. Now, we are many. Obviously, the fewer natural resources we waste and/or convert into bad stuff, the better.

    This has nothing to do with the magician-like efforts of “legitimate” climate “scientists” to muck around with dubious data or computer alGORithms to produce results personally pleasing to them, to their bank accounts, to their egos or to their prestige in the “scientific” community. Peer review is great, but only if it is not based on adherence to “scientific” dogma. The very notion of scientific dogma is horrible.

    To imperil substantial economic activity globally based on scientific dogma is worse. We don’t really know what, if any, impact there might be on the environment were cap and trade to become law. The impact could be good, bad or negligible. Real science might provide some answers; fake science won’t.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    So…it’s ‘scientific dogma’ that cigarettes are bad for you (but it wasn’t forty years ago). It’s ‘scientific dogma’ that evolution is real, that it’s been observad many times (but it wasn’t at the Scopes Monkey trail).

    Global warming IS a theory…and so is gravity. The fact that gravity’s a theory doesn’t make it any less real…and the same goes for global warming.

    It’s a tragic fallacy to think that because scientists get something wrong once in a while, that we must assume that global warming is some kind of hoax…especially when there’s such a wealth of evidence.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Glen, Comment # 141 — no, the damage caused by cigarettes is pretty reliably bad. I don’t think you could find many “skeptics” who think otherwise. The bad “science” which years ago maintained the contrary has pretty much been debunked. Back then, of course, nine out of ten doctors preferred camels. Wine and other alcoholic beverages in moderation (however that may be defined) are good or bad, depending on what one reads. Ditto milk, eggs, meat etc. Mosquito control with DDT was bad before it was good. Its rather like fashion — what’s great today may be thought unfashionable next year.

    Gravity exists; people who drink too much booze fall down, not up. We don’t know why or how gravity works, but we do know that it works. Aircraft built on the assumption that gravity does not exist probably wouldn’t work.

    We don’t know whether limiting the emission of carbon dioxide equivalents will work or what the limits, if any, should be to produce a desirable result; we don’t even have a firm conception of what might be a desirable result.

    Finally, the disreputable nature of the “science” promoted by the climate alarmists is getting some television coverage — in Russia, celebrated for its scientific superiority years ago in the field of plant genetics.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    At first, I wasn’t going to post this because it did not seem relevant. Then, its relevance hit me. So, here it is.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Great story.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The NYT and USAToday both did some coverage this week,but the MSM is staying pretty quiet. Michael Mann did get some coverage when he broke with the GW promoters with his new article in Science in which he goes back to the old theory that warming and cooling are cyclic reacctions to each other and that AGW fits within the functional parameters of that system – meaning mini ice age, not global warming.

    Dave

  • STM

    You think you guys have problems.

    We currently have parliamentary meltdown in this country as the Australian government tries to ram through into law an emmissions trading scheme BEFORE the Copenhagen meeting so the PM looks good when he gets there, and the conservative Opposition tears itself to shreds in a party-room revolt involving mass resignations from key positions after making a deal to soften it somewhat and have it voted through the Senate.

    We’ve all – that’s us poor schmucks living in the real world – suddenly realised that it’s just another tax that could send the country down the pan.

    Currently, there is a huge grassroots movement opposing an ETS in this country.

    Even many of those who are climate-change believers (and there are less of those than there were two years ago when the current Labor government was voted into power) think we should wait until AFTER Copenhagen to introduce an ETS.

    What a joke.

    Had the government spelled out the cost to us poor, ordinary working buggers at the last election instead of pulling the wool over our eyes, it’s unlikely they’d be in power now.

    The PM can talk about his “mandate” to introduce an ETS as much as he likes, but the truth is we were conned in regard to a) what it meant precisely and b) how much it would cost us.

    Think: Massive increases in the cost of fuel, groceries and power, for starters.

    And most of us aren’t happy little Vegemites.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Trying to use science to prove political points — or to use political arguments to debunk science — is where both the left and right sides of this “debate” [really more of a chaotic shouting match] go wrong.

    Scientists often argue with each other’s studies and theories, sometimes quite bluntly. Interpreting this as a political statement is gratuitous and wrongheaded.

    Warming aside, all of us can see the ravages of air and water pollution, and we can agree to keep taking steps to combat it. A great many of those steps happen to coincide with prescriptions against climate change.

    The planet really is in trouble, and even most conservative voices would have to agree that substantial anti-pollution measures are a good thing.

    Wouldn’t they??

  • pablo

    An interesting email from the hacked CRU emails, the link is enclosed, regarding global government by Germain Dufour, who just happens to be a Bilderberger as well.

    I do find it amazing that folks such as Clavos and Nalle are still in denial about globalism, and the conspiracy by the ruling elite to install it. We have had just in the last week, the recently installed President of the EU, as well as the head of the UN both talking about having a global government and also including as a reason the myth of man made global warming as a primary reason.

    I have been saying this on this site for about 2 years now, with nothing but guffaws, ridicule, and denial, with particular reference to Nalle and Clavos.
    Well here we are folks, about to cede our sovereignty over to the Bilderbergs, and their ilk. The CRU emails are blatant proof that they have been cooking the books, and denying neutral peer review.

    Even now, Nalle is in deep denial, or as I more suspect being a shill. If he is in denial it just shows how shallow his so called conservatism/libertarianism really is.

    To you “liberals” out there, and you know who you are, your naivete and underlying fascism makes me puke. I find you even more repugnant than the right these days, with the exception of Glenn Beck, who is nothing more than a plant.

    global goverment in the CRU emails

  • Mark

    Al Gore should be have a class action lawsuit filed against involving every person that has ever spent 1 penny buying his conspiratorial garbage. He should also be charged Federally and by international enforcement agencies for massive fraud. The guy has become a multi millionaire over this garbage.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Climategate again makes the New York Times.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Pablo, I’m not in denial about globalism, I just don’t see it in the simplistic, paranoid way which you do.

    I acknowledge that there are those who want to establish global government or create a global pwoer network, but I understand that they are not a single faction nor are they a unified conspiracy. Nor is a group like the Bildebergers the key to identifying or classifying the globalists.

    There are basically two types of globalists, those who want to perpetuate what our friend Stan accurately calls the “anglosphere” by continuing the British/American empire as a worldwide economic force, and there are the transnational socialists who want a world government which favors the interests of a bureaucratic/government elite and uses the third world as a power bloc to redistribute (and get their hands on) international wealth.

    The interests of these two groups are not the same, and neither of them is particularly secretive or conspiratorial. They are open and in many cases quite proud of their goals. And they aren’t even monolithically evil — well, the tranzis are pretty close. It’s just that their best interests and our best interests aren’t the same.

    But to deal with them effectively you have to look at them realistically, and that means getting beyond the paranoid Larouchian conspiracy bullshit.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Stan, the problem you point out in Australia is identical to one we are on the verge of having here, it’s just that it got derailed by the health care debacle. It’s still on the agenda for the near future, but I think many who support the bogus climate taxes are pinning their hopes on Copenhagen.

    Dave

  • STM

    The good news today is that the Liberal Party (the conservative opposition) has yesterday voted in a new leader who will block the ETS in the senate.

    That means Mr Rudd won’t be able to go to Copenhagen and brag about it the huge tax he’s imposed on ordinary Australians to stop Australia’s miniscule contribution to global warming before the real polluters have even had a chance to discuss what they will do.

    I don’t agree with all the man;’s politics, but I’m with him on a) blocking the ETS and b) ending the ridiculous push for a republic that would do away with a monarchy that only exercises an executive role in our democracy and has far less power than a president of the US execising the same (but far more monarchistic) role in America.

    You still elect a king every few years, whiole we’ve spent the past 350 years stripping ours of power.

    We don’t need another new tax and we don’t need an American system of government when ours provides the same freedoms but offers more stability.

    Rudd should pull his head in before he does himself irreversible electoral damage.

  • zingzing

    i think, stm, that obama’s relative lack of getting shit done should prove that our executive doesn’t have anything near king-like powers. that, of course, might (and, to a degree, should) change. i guess.

  • STM

    He does have king-like powers, zing, when compared to the Prime Minister. But he does dither a bit.

    Also, American cabinets aren’t elected.

    I find it bizarre that the biggest decision makers in Washington are appointed by the president and are not elected members.

    Every minister of the Crown here has been elected by the people and chosen by the PM or the Party to fill a role on the front-bench.

    That at least keeps them honest in as much as they are as accountable to the people who elected them as any other MHR or senator.

    I am not unusual in this country being on the left but still wanting to retain a constitutional monarchy as preferred system of democratic government.

    I would hate to have an elected president who suddenly finds he/she has untold power and decides to use it, to the detriment of those who elected him or her.

    Healthy democracy, driven by a grounswell of public fury, is at work in this country today: after the change of Opposition leader yesterday brought about by a groundswell of protest against the Government’s planned Emissions Trading Scheme (a giant tax on everything), the Senate has voted pretty much along two-party lines with only two Liberal Party senators crossing the floor to knock down the Prime Minister’s hastily- and ill-conceived piece of legislation.

    Good on them.

    The government pulled the wool over our eyes on this.

    It’s one of the most complicated pieces of legislation in Australian parliamentary history and the PM tried to have it rammed through the Senate with a few days’ debate so that when he gets to Copenhagen, he can say a) Look at us, we didn’t go into recession like the rest of you and b) We’ve come up with this great carbon tax scheme before anyone else.

    Nice to see the Labor Party getting hammered on this.

    We want more detail – and lots of it. The public debate on this sounds a warning to the PM from middle Australia: Don’t hold back, Kev, on that or you’ll get your backside kicked at the next election.

    You guys should be asking exactly the same questions over there before the US administration tries to foist a similar impost on ordinary Americans without explaining the ramifications of it all in very precise detail.

    Of course, we all also know that carbon credits are going to be traded as commodities by the same people who brought the global financial system to near collapse and bankrupted zillions of ordinary people in the process of lining their own pockets with obscene (and in this case, that word is accurate) amounts of money.

  • zingzing

    “He does have king-like powers, zing, when compared to the Prime Minister.”

    but does he have king-like powers when compared to a king? nah.

    relative scale

    PM…POTUS………………………………………….K………………….ladies

  • STM

    Sorry to disappoint you zing, but the King in our system has virtually no power. The monarch is not really allowed to do anything important except put a rubber stamp on decisions of the government as they are only head of state (a traditional gig), not head of government.

    It’s been that way since 1688, although George found a way around it by getting his followers into parliament and meddling illegally, or at least not within the spirit of the law. Hence: American revolution when Ameerican self-government was largely supported in England.

    It’s more like King …. PM ……………… POTUS … ladies.

    I have had discussions with some historians and political pundits who say that the monarchical powers of the President arev a throw back to the very period in which America became a nation – when nations DID have kings with some clout.

    Of course, I haven’t mentioned Queens here. That’s best left to another discussion.

  • zingzing

    “Sorry to disappoint you zing, but the King in our system has virtually no power.”

    of course not… this isn’t king henry. but there hasn’t been a true monarch in great britain for a very long time. but that’s what a king is. you seem to misunderstand what i mean. or i, you… a true “king” is an absolute monarch.

    (i’m having trouble with the fact that you actually thought i thought you were ruled by a king… surely, you don’t think so lowly of my knowledge…)

    to compare the president to a king is ridiculous. the power of the president in no way approaches that of a king. the president can so “no” for a while, but he can’t just make whatever he wants to happen happen. he’s far more comparable to a pm than anything else.

    your king/queen is superfluous, if anything. really, i had no idea that they had to sign off on stuff. seems pretty ridiculous. they’re just a family on welfare, really, aren’t they?

    but i think you vastly overstate the actual power a president has. (although we are very ready to blame/commend a president for whatever happens.) the president is at the mercy of the congress (and, eventually, the courts,) for what he does. a king is responsible to no one, especially since the english reformation. (not to say that amount of power lasted long.)

    although we were calling bush king george III for a while, what with his “i’m the decider” and “it would be easier” bits. american presidential power is relatively high compared to that of a pm, i guess, but only in the right circumstances–i.e. when the congress agrees with him and he’s got the right mix of libs/cons in the court.

  • STM

    Still, it’d be nice (for all of us, not just you) if you were able to have MORE checks and balances to slow down some of the lunatics that have been there in that job of late …

  • Paul Revere

    Time is getting short and it is coming down to the fact, that soon I will have to pray to the good Lord to maintain our freedoms an not allow our leaders to sign the Copenhagen Treaty, which will take away our liberties, let go and let God-this being a challenge to our Lord and Saviour? However, while there is still time to prevent the loss of a lifetime, perhaps loss of life it’s self – I will do what I am able to fight for our freedoms! The whole Climate change agenda is a proven fraud and racketeering, but the United Nations and Globalist governments don’t care as that is just the excuse instrument they have used to ensnare us! Has everybody out there become a tree hugger? Anyone out there want to fight and maintain their freedom anymore? Please do all you can to preserve freedom in North America!

    Check out what Government is doing behind your back.

    To request that PM Harper doesn’t sign the Copenhagen Treaty, thereby causing Canadians to lose their Sovereignty and Freedom email the PM at: pm@pm.gc.ca

    Any lawyers want to help out by filing this Copenhagen Treaty be classified as an illegal Treaty to help save Freedom in North America? ( Unlimited Promotion Opportunity Here For a Law firm to Gain a favorable high profile credibility! )

  • pablo

    Paul Revere,

    Nice link to Alex Jones’s “Fall Of The Republic”, unfortunately most of the regulars on this site are way too closed minded, and uniformed to ever actually watch a film like this. I personally thought it was Alex Jones’s best video yet.

  • http://etierphotography.blogspot.com/ FCEtier

    Globaloney!!

    Michael Crichton was correct all along!!!

  • Arch Conservative

    Hey Pablo I watched fall of the Republic and it makes perfect sense to me.

    There are signs of hope though. Despite how soft and complacent the vast majority of us have become we’re seeing resistance to the tools of the NWO agenda. Global warming, the Fed, state healthcare and media are all being called under suspicion of what they really are by more and more each day.

  • Greg

    Does anyone know where we can read the full emails, not just the few often quoted lines the media keeps repeating? If we are going to make an informed decision on this shouldn’t we be able to put it all the comments in their full context? Any links?

  • pablo

    163 Arch,

    Glad you liked the movie Arch! I do hope after these few years that we can become allies politically. I still stand firm on all that I have said in the past on this website concerning the New World Order, and their elite clubs. Please correct me if I am wrong Arch, but I seem to recall you on occasion disparaging my point of view.

    164 Greg,

    Nalle hyperlinked where all of the emails can be found and searched on the first page of his article.

  • pablo

    Nalle 151 you said:

    “There are basically two types of globalists, those who want to perpetuate what our friend Stan accurately calls the “anglosphere” by continuing the British/American empire as a worldwide economic force, and there are the transnational socialists who want a world government which favors the interests of a bureaucratic/government elite and uses the third world as a power bloc to redistribute (and get their hands on) international wealth.”

    I wonder if you would care to put some names out for discussion particularly with reference to the latter so-called group that you referenced. As it is you speak in vague generalities, and it is my belief that should you decide to actually name some names, we would invariably be led back to one of the following groups. Chatham House, the CFR, the Bildergerg Group, the Club of Rome, or the Trilateral Commission. I suspect you already know as much, which is why you couch your assertions in vague nameless generalities Dave.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Excellent article in today’s Wall St Journal:

    What Global Warming?

    It’s a valuable summary of skeptics’ arguments and pro-warming rebuttals. It comes down more or less on the Green side, but without political posturing, and the non-extremists in this debate [are there any others besides me? Ha] should find it useful.

  • t barrett

    fact; the sun constantly loses matter, as it does its gravitational force increases. go figure, its not rocket science.

    our sun is the black hole of the future it would seem, how far or how near in the future i cannot predict.

    our solar system in terms of the cosmos is nothing but a tiny piece of energy that periodicaly pulses and contracts, to us this seems like eons, to others this maybe nothing more than a blink of the eye.

  • t barrett

    just thought id like to add to previous comment. the doom merchants (and tax grabbers) tried to convince us there was a hole in the ozone layer…….can some smart ass scientist or pro green believer please explain how on this planet you can put a hole in a gas.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ah, now, you see, Mr (Mrs? Ms?) Barrett, the thing about the ozone hole is that you can actually take a picture of it – something which for obvious reasons is a bit harder to do when it comes to global warming.

    And it’s not a hole as such – that’s just the popular term for the phenomenon, which actually involves reduced concentrations of ozone above the poles.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    [For the most part the malfeasance they document is relatively minor.]

    Exactly Dave! There’s no evidence that any of the data has been manipulated, or that the scientific conclusions about global warming are incorrect, or that there is any conspiracy to misrepresent the facts.

    So your story is what exactly? That someone has hacked some emails and doesn’t like what they’ve read. So what?

    The evidence for global warming is enough to convince a world of scientists who, incidentally, are the most skeptical of people by nature and training. The whole basis of science is that hypotheses are disproved, which is why so many scientists keep spending so much time trying to disprove various hypotheses put forward by their colleagues.

    Any worthwhile scientific endeavour will heavily criticise its own results and conclusions, and that’s exactly what the climate scientists do all the time. The result of such searching evaluation is conclusions which stand the test of scrutiny.

    This is a nonsense story, empty of evidence, and full of assumption and suspicion. No wonder the climate scientists hold the global warming deniers in such contempt. They show so very little in their arguments worthy of any respect.

  • Skeptic

    Think! Which countries are pushing the climate change/carbon tax the hardest? Which countries de-industrialized in the last couple of decades in the name of globilization? Which countries now owe other countries trillions of dollars because they need to buy goods from them because they have no manufacturing base of their own? This is a blatant wealth transfer all right, but the transfer is from the polluting productive countries back to the non-polluting non-productive countries who try and make money from pushing paper and piles of money around.

  • pablo

    171 Bob Lloyd
    Here are several links for you that contradict your assertions concerning global warming.

    One can almost assume without any science, that if the following organizations are behind so called co2 pollution it must be a scam. The UN, the World Bank, the CFR, and the Bilderberg Group. As these organizations are corrupt and full of bullshit to their core.

    I Love Carbon Dioxide

    Lord Monckton’s Website

    Your assertion Bob that “The evidence for global warming is enough to convince a world of scientists”, sounds eerily similar to Gore’s claim that there is a consensus on the issue, when nothing could be further from the truth. There are literally thousands of scientists who at this very moment are challenging Gore and companies claims.

    Also Bob about your claim; “There’s no evidence that any of the data has been manipulated, or that the scientific conclusions about global warming are incorrect, or that there is any conspiracy to misrepresent the facts.” This is utter BS data has been manipulated with code, and there was obviously a conspiracy to engage in deception, which is why one of the main leaders of this fraud stepped down from his post several days ago.

    As to it being a nonsense story, the only thing that is nonsense is your denial of the obvious, that a criminal acts have taken place, and I am not talking about the leakers who will be ultimately protected by UK law for bringing to light criminal activity.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Pablo, for once I hope you’re right about this. I really do.

    But you’re not.

    :-(

  • t.barrett

    well dr dreadful, i would have thought someone who calls themselves dr would have known the difference between an actual picture and something that is no more than a pie chart. therefore i have to conclude i am not surprised that you are being suckered by the belief that we humans are responsible for so called global warming.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Barrett, you’re either very dense or a wind-up merchant – I can’t tell which.

    To make things as easy as I can for you:

    This is a pie chart.
    This is a photograph of the ‘hole’ in the ozone layer over the Antarctic in 2006, taken by NASA’s Aura satellite.

    The difference is pretty obvious, at least to me.

    You’re not one of those people who doesn’t believe in things they can’t see, are you? If so (since you brought it up), how do you know there are such things as gases?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    175 – barrett,

    well dr dreadful, i would have thought someone who calls themselves dr would have known the difference between an actual picture and something that is no more than a pie chart.

    Scathing, barrett…take it easy on him…

    I think only one of himselves is a doctor, the other is just this guy…

    But really, he’s got a lot of nerve, if you ask me–not living up to the presumptions made about him by complete strangers on the internet. When I first got here, I thought he had white hair and a white beard. As it turns out, he doesn’t have either–how rude. And they said the British were polite. Fooey…

  • pablo

    Dread,

    I am right about all that I have written about, your just not quite bright enough or well read enough to realize it pal.

  • farooq aamir

    The problem with CO2 is that it’s invisible. But it’s up there, along with methane, that hexaflourocarbon thing (CF6), and the others…what was I saying? Yeah, so methane’s vast, VASTly worse than CO2 so let’s kill all the cows. And eat them! Our grandchildren must suffer as vegetarians but imagine all the Texas-raised steaks we’ll eat! And imagine the quadruple bypass operation…um never mind. The problem is us Americans are addicted to carbonates. We use like 9 times per capita what the average skinny Indian uses. But I’m not giving up my SUV!

  • t barrett

    people who speak most know least

  • t barrett

    holes dont happen in gas. simple.

  • zingzing

    “holes dont happen in gas. simple.”

    you take things very literally, don’t you?

  • t barrett

    we are being sucked into the sun…..GET IT…..as if you government is gonna tell you….like aliens. oh yea can you imagine proof of aliens, it would kill the belief of christinity…. think about it..dont let them fk u over

  • t barrett

    yes zingzing, punch a hole in the air and what is it replaced by. dont let them fool you.

  • zingzing

    you’re a parody of something, right? if not… well, let’s just hope you’re working up to a joke of some kind.

  • MARK

    I wrote many American Newspaper people this letter and none wrote me back at all.

    SIR why don’t you go and investigate this whole fraud of global warming. If your a environmental person I sure would like the truth and you digging into the scam your job your supposed to do is called JOURNALISM,Digging into the TRUTH and not the lies that are being started by dishonest people, who say they are scientist. They are frauds, and crooks that wanted to take over the planet by their theft of the truth by changing all the data and then tell people for years about this fraud.Remember a lie told over and over again becomes truth. These people have been emailing for years and are greedy and I bet IF ALL THE Emails came out and conversations you would see they wanted to make a NEW MONEY and currency and be in charge of it called the Carbon Tax, that can be sold and bought on the stock exchange and then turned into money. They were going to make laws to govern you,take away your freedoms brain wash people,and take everything you have from you from your transportation to the warmth you needed in the winter time. They would stop giving people heat and let them die and die by governing in the new world order. MARK IN HOUSTON