Today on Blogcritics
Home » Culture and Society » Freedom Of Expression at Ground Zero Is About More Than A Liberal Cause du Jour

Freedom Of Expression at Ground Zero Is About More Than A Liberal Cause du Jour

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

Sometimes, just sometimes, Democrats impress me. John Kerry holding the Scottish government’s feet to the fire over the release of Abdul al-Megrahi, for instance. Kerry doesn’t buy the argument that it was right to show mercy to the PanAm flight 103 bomber given his (supposedly) terminal illness, as you would normally expect a bleeding heart liberal to do. I also respect Dianne Feinstein for approving of the Patriot Act, supporting the death penalty, and running San Francisco as a centrist during her tenure as mayor of that normally loopy, hard left city. I like Joe Lieberman, of course, for several reasons.

Add to the list Harry Reid and the recently defeated Senate candidate Jeff Greene. Why? For their opposition to the location of the proposed Ground Zero mosque and for criticizing the Messiah’s thoughts on the matter.

President Obama’s main premise, that we have freedom of worship, is correct, but, as Greene noted, he’s got it all wrong. What gets conveniently lost in the liberal left’s argument in favor of the mosque is that American citizens have a Constitutional right to voice their opposition to it. What about our First Amendment rights?

Like Reid, one of the highest ranking Democrats to oppose the mosque’s location, I feel that this isn’t a matter of religious opposition. It’s simply the mosque’s proposed location, and the powerful symbolism it carries with it that bothers me. Muslims don’t like it that we are focusing on the religion of the terrorists that killed 3,000 people nine years ago, but how would they like it if we erected a monument dedicated to the Crusades in a place that carries significant symbolic sentiment to them?

The Constitution should not be wielded as a tool to trump popular opinion in this matter. I have heard so much blather with regard to “good, law-abiding Americans who just happen to be Muslim” wanting to build their Islamic community centre at the Ground Zero location. But are they really thinking this one through?

If the Muslims who sought permission to build at the Cordoba Centre are that respectful, wouldn’t they have backed down after realizing how their fellow Americans, assuming they consider us as such, agonized about the symbolic importance of their decision? If they’re moderates – as the left is assuring us that they are – can’t they understand that it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship? I think it’s an affront of the highest level to blame the average American for his or her “bigotry” when it’s the mosque-builders who are being intractable and intransigent.

Consider this, dear reader: the Islamic community centre’s imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf, described U.S. policy-making as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11, and asserted that all the “attention is a sign of the success of our efforts.” As Toby Harnden of The Daily Telegraph wrote, that assertion from Rauf is “an utterance that shows he is stupid, mischievous, or worse. Even if the aim of building the centre there was to encourage religious understanding, that is clearly no longer a possible outcome. So what kind of success was Rauf referring to?”

My thoughts exactly.

New York mayor Michael Bloomberg — a RINO (Republican In Name Only) if ever there was one — isn’t exactly trying to smooth things out, as you would expect him to do. He condemns the opposition, opining that they “ought to be ashamed of themselves.”

Honestly, why is it so difficult to understand that there is a line being crossed here, a basic level of civility and respect that is being ignored? But, alas, I forget: Even if you slashed the throat of a leftie’s loved one, he’d still think, “Hmmm, what’s wrong with the person who just killed my brother? Is he hurting? Is that a cry for help? Maybe I can help him. Golly gee …”

To tell you the truth, for me, that’s what this whole debate over the Ground Zero mosque comes down to. We’re all getting our throats cut in a metaphorical sense, and we’re still expected to understand “the other side.”

 

Powered by

About Nightdragon

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Your rights to speak out aren’t being affected, but nowhere as far as I know does the Constitution say your feelings are supposed to dictate what someone should do with their private property.

    And it’s not “at the Ground Zero location”. It’s a few blocks away. Unlike the Ground Zero of the Pentagon where Muslims are provided a room to pray to Allah. Odd that you didn’t mention that in the piece.

    You mean the same Harry Reid who is desperate to keep his job? I wouldn’t trust anything that guy says.

    “it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship?”

    When did you start to speak for “everyone”?

    “Feisal Abdul Rauf, described U.S. policy-making as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11″

    That’s what Bin Laden claimed. Do you know more than he about the reasons for 9/11? If so, please elaborate.

    “New York mayor Michael Bloomberg — a RINO (Republican In Name Only) if ever there was one”

    He hasn’t been a Republican for three years

  • zingzing

    “it would please everyone if they simply looked elsewhere to erect their place of worship?”

    you know that the location has been a “mosque” for 16 months already, right? muslims meet and pray there every day, and have for quite some time.

    it’s only now that they want to add a 9/11 memorial, a pool, a culinary school and a court upon which is played the unholy islamic sport of “basketball” that you get all upset? what gives?

    “Feisal Abdul Rauf, described U.S. policy-making as “an accessory to the crime” of 9/11″

    and he’d be right. they did it for some reason. it wasn’t because they hated our freedom. the truth hurts. but it’s the truth. if you’re looking for reasons why the terrorists would do such a thing, you have to admit that they have some pretty big gripes with american foreign policy, and rightly so.

    “Honestly, why is it so difficult to understand that there is a line being crossed here, a basic level of civility and respect that is being ignored?”

    because that line isn’t being crossed, or it was crossed 16 months ago. (and the world did not end because of it, and the terrorists didn’t win because of it.) you’ve just been misinformed, and because of that, your opinion of the matter would, whether you want it to or not, go against everything america stands for.

    don’t let your ignorance of what is actually going on stop you from coming to silly conclusions though. that would be out of character.

  • zingzing

    besides, they only bought the 51 park building to catch the overflow from another muslim prayer room 12 blocks away that was too full. now, they’re going to make it into a place that will suck all those prayin’ muslims over as well.

    it’s competition! how american is that? who’s going to want to go that stinky old place when this thing’s built? and it has a pool! and you can play basketball! and take cooking classes! it’s got shit for the kids! it’s an all-day event.

    and non-muslims are encouraged to go as well. there can be interfaith dialogue. muslim americans will learn about america. americans will learn about muslims. discussion can happen. everything done in the sunshine. and you can go for a swim. i bet it’ll be a real nice pool.

    it’s a chance for a good thing and all the stupid right wing idiots are getting sucked into islamophobia and fear. you’ve turned what could have been something highly constructive into something highly divisive. it’s shameful. and it’s music to radical islam’s ear.

    every sensible person in the world wants an end to terror and hatred. they’re looking on in disgust as america fucks this opportunity up.

  • http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/ mcauleysworld

    How far away is far enough … to build a Mosque at Ground Zero …

    First – some basic things we might agree upon…

    1) An 8 acre “Memorial Garden” with approximately 450 trees, 2 Ponds around which the names of the ” 2700 victims will be engraved” and a Museum are planned … a “Memorial Garden” or “cemetery” for the 2700 … the first trees were planted this weekend 08/28/2010.

    2). Every Mosque in the world shares one thing with every other Mosque in the world … do you know what it is? It is called the “adhan” … which many Westerners incorrectly translate as the “Muslim call to prayer”, the literal translation is the “Call to Islam”.

    3). The prayer lasts from 8 to 20 minutes depending on the “caller” and takes place 5 times a day between dawn and dusk, 7 days a week, 365 times a year … the “Call” is “broadcast from speakers atop of the Mosque … and as this Mosque will be located 1 block from Ground Zero – yes one block – you start at the corner of W Broadway and Barclay and walk one block north and you are there, the Mosque will be built on the right hand side … W Broadway and Barclay, the corner where the original WTC #7 stood … On the longest day of the summer, (assuming 16 hours of daylight) the “Call” will be heard approximately once every 3 hours .. on the shortest day of the year (assuming 8 hours of daylight) the “Call” will be heard every 90 minutes …

    4). The “Call to Islam” is intended, by design to “proselytize” or “recruit” people to Islam … Google ‘adhan” and select an Islamic site and you will read, “It is intended to bring to the mind of every believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its spiritual ideology. As the Mosque will be located 1 block away and will be 11 stories tall… the “Call to Islam” will cascade down on all those in the “park” 5 times a day for as long as the Mosque is 1 block away … visitors and “permanent guests” alike will be subject to the daily intrusion of the “Call” on their acts of prayer and remembrance… or an intrusion on their eternal place of rest … 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

    5). The issue is not as simple as a “Freedom of Religion” issue … is it… the question is how to accommodate “conflicting religions” or “competing religions” in the same place at the same time …

    6). The “Memorial Garden” at Ground Zero is a “Public Memorial” Garden or public Cemetery … I can assure you unequivocally that if we “magically” transported the “killing fields in Bosnia” where 8000 Muslims were killed in cold blood during the so called “ethnic cleansing”, or “Srebrenica Massacre” … to Ground Zero and then suggested that a “Christian Church” would be built 1 block away, you know, to “build bridges”, and that the “Church” would broadcast “Christian Prayers” through “loudspeakers” across the “Memorial Garden” 5 times a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year … you’d hear a resounding “I think not” … and that would be the appropriate thing to say, the appropriate response … the building permits would never be granted and the denial of permits would be cheered not protested …

    7) The issue isn’t what goes on inside the Mosque … or what goes on inside your home … the issue is what comes out of the Mosque or your home and how that affects “the rest of the world on the outside” …. and it is this issue that eliminates the false claims that there is some type of mythical “Constitutional Right” to build a “House of Worship” where ever you want or might own property … a right exists to freedom of worship … but the right is a limited one not an unlimited one … Example: The Jehovah’s Witnesses can knock on your door to “proselytize” or “recruit” you to their cause, they cannot enter your “church” or a “public cemetery” to do so …

    8). This isn’t a “freedom of religion” issue and the President should know this full well … This issue is one of balancing competing “freedoms” that are equal … everyone has the right to ball their hand into a fist and jump and spin around with wild abandon … that right ends when your “balled up hand” makes contact with another’s nose … in this instance the “balled up hand” is the “Call to Islam” and the “nose” belongs to the non-Muslims who want their right to visit the Memorial Garden without the intrusion of the “Call to Islam” respected … the “nose” belongs to the relatives of the departed who believe the “Call” is an unnecessary intrusion to the “eternal rest” of their departed loved ones… The inescapble point in this … the Mosque can be located anywhere … not so for Ground Zero … despite our best efforts … we will never locate all the bodies.

    8). Hopefully common sense will prevail and the Mosque will be moved far enough away from “Ground Zero” so that those who visit the Memorial Park can do so without the unnecessary intrusion of the “Call to Islam” cascading down around them during their visit … If not, the American legal system will prevent an unconstitutional governmental endorsement of Islam as our state religion and the ‘Ground Zero Mosque” will be moved or prohibited by a Court from broadcasting the “Call to Islam” down upon the “Ground Zero Memorial Park” …

  • zingzing

    if that’s true, then you must be hearing those calls right now, because it already is (and has been) a muslim prayer center (for some time).

    and you know, there are over 100 mosques in nyc. i live in nyc. yet i’ve never heard one of these calls. they must be doing it very, very quietly.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    There’s a mosque just around the corner from my house as well. Although it has a minaret, it’s just for show and no adhans are called from there or from any other point on the building.

    Besides which, as has already been pointed out numerous times, the building is only a mosque in the sense that any building in which organized Muslim prayer takes place becomes a mosque – perhaps only temporarily. Its primary function is as a community center.

  • zingzing

    another point shot down. what will they think of next?

  • Bill B

    Talk about cause de jour, that would more aptly describe the rights take on this issue. And this screed is just so much more hogwash, as has been nicely pointed out already.

    I’ll just touch on one angle that you folks on the right can’t seem to wrap your (excuse for a) brain around.

    You probably win the prize for the worlds worst analogy. Try this one; Your a non-christian and a catholic church is to be built 2 blocks away from you humble abode. You and other like minded folk protest the proposed project because all catholic priests are child molesters and you feel this will just be another recruiting ground for more molestation.

    So you’d be right to point out some priests are child molesters as some moslems are terrorists – but you’d be wrong to paint all priests with that broad brush just as you’re wrong to paint all moslems similarly.

    You and your ilk are about as un-american as they come. You’re too busy erecting straw men about free speech and discovering sensitivity where it has no place trumping common sense to see that you’re playing into the hands of the true extremists who’s biggest recruiting tool is putting folks like you on display as exhibit #1 in justifying their belief that we’re at war with Islam. Nice job.

    my post from a different thread –


    The would be Park 51 Imam is of the Sufi sect of Shia. One of the more moderate forms of Islam – such that a recent bombing in Pakistan by Al Qaida was aimed at a Sufi shrine. Al Qaida views THEM as an enemy in their battle to sway the minds of Muslims.

    GW Bush used the Imam and other’s as emissaries to the Muslim world to help persuade them of how the US is a good place and in significant ways conducive to true Islam and is not at war with it.

    Even GWB, who when we were on the doorstep of invading Iraq and didn’t know what Shia and Sunni were or what they meant, came to understand the plurality of Islam and the need for us to reach out to moderate factions.

    Writings like this only serve to reinforce the know nothing attitude that doesn’t even recognize those factions who are within our own borders and citizens of the US let alone around the world.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Zingzing: ” … and non-muslims are encouraged to go as well. there can be interfaith dialogue. muslim americans will learn about america. americans will learn about muslims. discussion can happen. everything done in the sunshine. and you can go for a swim. i bet it’ll be a real nice pool.”

    And I bet a rainbow will stream from my a** after having an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as “we’re right and you’re going to hell”) and gone for a swim their real nice pool. Yea me! Yea everyone! God bless America!

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Bill B:

    Better to be “un-American” than to allow people to just trample all over our sensitivities and things of symbolic value while we’re expected to stand by with our hands in our pockets and say, “Oh well, golly gee, dum-da-dum-dum.”

    If this is such a moderate and tolerant sect, Bill, then why are they being so stubborn? That one question still has to be answered.

  • Ruvy

    Mark,

    I’ve seen two articles that are against this travesty – this victory mosque. And the lefty, PC commenters at this site cannot admit that this Rauf fellow – and his backers – have ties to the very terrorists who brought down the WTC.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about their victory mosque, Mark. If it gets built at all, an American terrorist will blow it up. There are still some patriots left in America. But more to the point, I sense that events will transpire such that this victory mosque will never see as much as a foundation laid.

  • Bill B

    If this is such a moderate and tolerant sect, Bill, then why are they being so stubborn? That one question still has to be answered.

    Is wuss a synonym for moderate?

    One side is being stubborn about standing up for their rights and not being swayed by un-american fear mongers.

    btw, arson at the construction site of the proposed Tennessee mosque. I wonder what lofty ideals are driving that opposition…

    The other being stubborn about their ignorance of Islam and refusing to distinguish between the muslims that perpetrated 9/11 and those who are american citizens and not affiliated with/ or sypathizers of those who committed 9/11.

    Really pretty obvious who should be backing down. Never bow to ignorant bullies.

    Better to be “un-American” than to allow people to just trample all over our sensitivities and things of symbolic value while we’re expected to stand by with our hands in our pockets and say, “Oh well, golly gee, dum-da-dum-dum.”

    Really? It’s precisely un-american because this supposed “sensitivity and sybolic value” nonsense doesn’t pass the smell test for all the previously stated reasons chief among them the right of private property owners to comply with all local ordinance and build as they see fit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    . . .this supposed “sensitivity and sybolic value” nonsense doesn’t pass the smell test for all the previously stated reasons chief among them the right of private property owners to comply with all local ordinance and build as they see fit.

    This should be the least reason on your list, Bill B, for if you don’t, you should well know that “property rights” and “local ordinances” aren’t always reliable indices as to what’s “right” – unless of course you’re swallowing the entire capitalist mindset hook sink and liner. Your earlier posts seemed to indicate you were free of that fallacy. Was my reading wrong?

    Furthermore, your use of the term “un-American” also becomes unclear, vague and, dare I say, suspect, when lumped together with your laudatory remarks of the kind indicated above. I do understand Mr. Manning’s use of the term, it’s clear and unambiguous; but you took it upon yourself to offer a corrective.

    So how exactly do you mean it, if it is indeed meant as a corrective?

  • Laura

    THE Answer to the Ground Zero “Mosque” Controversy

    HEY AMERICAN on YouTube by NYC songwriter David Ippolito

    Watch. Listen. Think… Check out this powerful song/video now

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Ruvy — “American terrorist”? Don’t you mean “freedom fighter”? ;-)

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Bill: Roger’s right — building this mosque where where they’ve planned it is akin to Donald Trump shitting all over the Scots on whose land he bullied his way onto to build his golf course. Of course, I’m sure he sought the proper planning permisson, so that must make it right.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I haven’t quite said that, Mark, only punched holes in Bill’s argument.

    I know however that to refer to a mosque as a community center is a misnomer. It’s a community center only if you become an adherent of Islam.

  • Bill B

    Was my reading wrong?

    No – but you’re reading more into it than was intended. I could’ve been clearer I suppose.

    Merely trying to speak the conservative language – they who hold property rights in such high esteem, thus the ‘chief among them reference’.

    Isn’t it a given that all laws (ordinances) can be either just or draconian? If that were at issue here it would also be part of the discussion but it isn’t so it’s not, but it is part of the basic building code process and germain to property rights.

    As far as un-american goes I didn’t feel the need to spell out “all the previously stated reasons”, which from my view are more significant, thus why they were stated earlier (in this thread by others as well, and my cutting and pasting from anotther post – growing weary of typing the same stuff over and over!).

    That YOU feel the property rights reference (I guess) takes away from that validity would be an indication of your particular view of whether disrepecting property rights, in whatever form, would qualify one as un-american. I believe it’s one part of the puzzle, again, emphasized as ‘chief among them’ for the reason cited above.

    Would you pick and choose which laws/ordinances being subverted would qualify one as un-american? Or are there none that would pass your smell test by virtue of your contempt for the concept of ‘Law’?

    Granted, because a building is being built acording to code doesn’t make it right; doesn’t make it wrong either. Remember, those opposed DID try an end around by trying to get the building declared an historical landmark so while to their credit that haven’t claimed they don’t have the right to build it, they did try and make it impossible for it to be built.

  • http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/ mauleysworld

    “5 – zingzing
    Aug 29, 2010 at 3:22 pm
    if that’s true, then you must be hearing those calls right now, because it already is (and has been) a muslim prayer center (for some time).

    and you know, there are over 100 mosques in nyc. i live in nyc. yet i’ve never heard one of these calls. they must be doing it very, very quietly.”

    Honest debate requires truthful dialogue. Google “adhan” as I’ve suggested and read whetehr it is braodcast for lolud speakers or not … next research the diffence between a “prayer room”, like tgyhose at the Pentagon and a “Mosque”. Prayer rooms do not issue the “Call to Islam”, the prayer room you are referring to is a “Sufist Prayer Room” and has never issued a “Call to ISlam” before their meetings … beyond that … wait there is no beyond that … you were not truthful about anything in your post …

  • http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/ mauleysworld

    Visit this site: Produced by Muslim’s for non-Muslims. Adhan

    “Adhan is called out by the muezzin in the mosque, sometimes from a minaret, five times a day summoning Muslims for mandatory (fard) prayers (salah). There is a second call known as iqama (set up) that summons Muslims to line up for the beginning of the prayers. The main purpose behind the loud pronouncement of adhan five times a day in every mosque is to make available to everyone an easily intelligible summary of Islamic belief. It is intended to bring to the mind of every believer and non-believer the substance of Islamic beliefs, or its spiritual ideology. Loudspeakers are installed on minarets for the purpose.”

    This is not a matter of conjecture, it is fact. Google “adhan” and select anyone of the numerous Islamic sites …

    Not every building with a minaret is a Mosque. Not meanng to embrassass anyone … but I thought everyone knew that.

  • zingzing

    “you were not truthful about anything in your post …”

    sure i was. i live here, there are 100 mosques here, i’ve never heard the call to islam. straight up fact. there’s a prayer room right now at 51 park. as you say, no call to islam emanating from there. if they build another prayer room at 51 park, will there be a “call to islam” blasted over the 9/11 memorial?

    also, you’re either tired or drunk. given the time, i’ll go with tired.

  • zingzing

    mem: “And I bet a rainbow will stream from my a** after having an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as “we’re right and you’re going to hell”) and gone for a swim their real nice pool. Yea me! Yea everyone! God bless America!”

    mhmm. so all muslims are, in fact, evil. and stupid. if they were to turn 51 park or whatever they’re calling it into some america-hating temple of doom, don’t you think they’d be more sneaky about it? at least give them that much credit.

    have you ever, even for a second, thought that there might actually be a moderate islam out there? if not, then you are just as bad as radical islam. you don’t want this shit to end.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    So first Mauley claims that the Muslims will be broadcasting the adhan from Park51, then it’s pointed out to him that Park51 isn’t a mosque, then he argues that prayer rooms don’t issue adhans, so (a) what is his explanation for why zing doesn’t hear calls to prayer in NYC, and (b) why does he think a muezzin is going to be hollering all over the 9/11 site if Park51 has only prayer rooms and isn’t a mosque?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    an interfaith dialogue (which can be summed up as “we’re right and you’re going to hell”)

    This isn’t necessarily true of the attitude of any pious people, even Christians – and even Ruvy’s faith, which is particularly elegant in that it is concerned only with its own people; what the rest of the world believes, or doesn’t, is pretty much their own problem.

  • http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/ mauleysworld

    Twelve Questions for Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf

    1). Will you acknowledge the genocide in Dafur?

    2). Do you acknowledge the charges of “War Crimes” brought by the United Nations International Criminal Court against the regime in the Sudan?

    3). Will you condemn the genocide in Dafur?

    4). Do you, as an individual, recognize an international right, an unalienable right, of all people throughout the world to worship or not worship, as they choose, without fear of harm, an international right to freedom of religion, or freedom from religion, for all people?

    5). Do you call upon all leaders, in all lands and of all faiths to recognize this right?

    6). Will you call upon the civil, religious and most importantly the theocratic leaders throughout the world to reopen the places of worship that they may have closed or may have been closed by their predecessors, within their lands and to permit the free and unencumbered exercise of the religion of choice by all people in all lands? If not, please explain how your position “is inherently compatible with American life.”

    7). Will you acknowledge a universal right of equality between the sexes and call for an end to the “crimes against humanity” being committed in Dafur, Sudan? Will you call for an end to the barbaric and sexist practices of mutilating, stoning and beheading of women, whenever these actions might be occurring throughout the world? If you refuse to condemn these actions will you explain how these actions are “inherently compatible with American life”?

    8). Will you call for an immediate end to the barbaric practice of executing individuals because of their sexual orientation and for an end to the equally barbaric practice of drugging and raping virgin’s prior to their execution. (“Members of Iran’s feared Basij militia forcibly marry female virgin prisoners the night before scheduled executions, raping their new “wives” and making it religiously acceptable to execute them, a self-professed member of the paramilitary group says… ” – http://www.news.com.au/iran-virgin-prisoners-raped-for-legal-executions/story-0-1225752873650 ; Google “Virgin Rape Iran” for a long list of articles condemning this barbaric practice )

    9). You have refused to acknowledge or condemn HAMAS as a terrorist organization. The Charter of HAMAS states that, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it”. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

    Absent a general condemnation of HAMAS, will you as an Iman and a purported “Liberal/Progressive Muslim American leader”, denounce and condemn this specific component of the HAMAS charter, that your faith, Islam, has the right to ”obliterate” any other People, Race, Religion or Country? Certainly, you must be willing to condemn the basic “concept” that any “faith”, be it Islam or any other faith or religion, has a right to “obliterate” any other faith, people, religion or Country … the Imam does recognize, doesn’t he, that such a concept is not “inherently compatible with American life”.

    10). Will you specifically acknowledge that those individuals who choose not to believe in the “One True God” and choose to pursue forms of worship such as; Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism or those who choose not to pursue any religion at all, should be left to their personal freedom of expression, whatever it might be and that these individuals should never be put in fear of their life because of the choice they make and will you condemn those who will not acknowledge this universal right?

    11). Was the execution of Saddam Hussein for “crimes against humanity” a just and acceptable action under Islamic Law as you understand that law?

    12). You have expressed an unusual position on the United Nations sanctions against Iraq; using those sanctions to justify the attack on innocent civilians in the WTC on 911 because of the “blood on American hands” that you associate with the United Nation’s Iraqi sanctions.

    The United Nations has recently initiated a host of sanctions against Iran. Will those sanctions serve as a justification in your mind if other attacks are launched by extremist Islamic Militants against innocent American civilians?

    Imam, we all know that only the extremists follow Jihad and that “they” do not represent the true Islam … the question is what type of Muslim are you Imam … are you a “Wolf in sheep’s clothing”?

  • zingzing

    one and a half questions for mauley: why won’t you answer the question? (that being, will there be a “call to islam” in or around the 9/11 memorial?)

  • Dillon Mawler

    Great list! It’s right there in the Constitution that all churches must pass a loyalty test!

    Lemme do the one for Catholic churches!

  • doug m

    As long as the Imam isn’t as narrow-minded as the author and macualey, NYers should be okay. Why don’t you mugs call for the removal of all mosques in Manhattan? At least then you would show some consistency.

    Ruvy’s calls for arson are rather disgusting. What an embarrassment to humanity.

  • Ruvy

    Ruvy — “American terrorist”? Don’t you mean “freedom fighter”? ;-)

    I don’t go in for euphemisms, Mark. The Etze”l were Jewish terrorists who drove the Brits outta here. They were far less bloodthirsty than their bloodthirsty Arab counterparts. But they were terrorists – just as those who assassinated Lord Moynes and that dumb Swede, Bernadotte….

  • Ruvy

    Doug, I’m not calling for arson. I’m simply predicting that there are some with the sense to do what needs to be done – even when most of the sheeple in your country have neither the brains nor the guts to.

  • doug m

    What needs to be done is for people to reject your warped mindset. Bombing a mosque just because it is built is not patriotic.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Ruvy’s number 30 is a direct, moronic call for the community center to be burnt down, barely disguised as a disavowal. Complete cowardice, and pure stupidity to think anyone couldn’t understand that.

    Fuck you, Ruvy, for endangering my life and the life of my family, as we live three blocks away from the site, and the fire you encourage could kill us.

  • Ruvy

    That is your problem, Doug, not mine. Bombing a synagogue is not patriotic either, and it happens all the time – all over the world. But that is MY problem – not yours. What needs to be done is that vengeance needs to be taken on the human garbage who bomb our synagogues, who call for my extermination – and who call you responsible for 9/11. JEWS need to take that vengeance to show this human garbage that Jewish blood has a value higher than your pathetic documents of law.

  • Ruvy

    Perhaps, Dillon, you should recognize the real threat to your life – the desire of Wahhabi and Wahhabi influenced Muslims to destroy your nation and spit at you in the process – instead of cursing me out.

  • Dillon Mawler

    These are Sufis running the community center, but of course you know that.

    And I am not afraid of idiot violent assholes, and nor am I afraid of your type and your lunatic beliefs — you’re miles away, which is the only reason you have the balls to call for violence here.

    Your sniveling fear makes you look like a fool and a whimpering coward, calling for someone else to burn down of a house of worship thousands of miles away from you. So brave!

    I’m not pissing in my pants, cuz I’m NOT scared.

  • doug m

    Actually all bombings are my problem because I am a member of the human race not some bitter, ignorant fool blinded by fairy tales and phony tribalism. I agree there are certainly dangerous, evil people in the world. Is it just a coincidence their words resemble yours? No one has called me responsible for 9/11 so spare your lies.

  • Ruvy

    Dillon, maybe you ought to look at comment #25 very carefully. This Rauf fellow does not sound like any kind of Sufi I know, and my teacher in Islam is a Sufi.

    This guy sounds a whole lot more like a Wahhabi wearing Sufi clothing.

    And Dillon, do me a favor. Do not talk to me of “sniveling fear”. I am a police volunteer, I carry a weapon when the situation requires it, and like most residents of Ma’ale Levona, I go on patrol once a month. It ain’t much, but since I am far too old to be a soldier chasing terrorists and killing them here, I do what I can to protect my country against Arab terrorism – and those who incite Arabs to terror from America and Europe (like some of the commenters here sound like they would like to).

    If burning down a mosque or a church was what it took to protect the security of this land I live in, I would not hesitate to do so for a second.

    Finally, when I did live in New York, I spent time with the Jewish Defense League. Let me remind you that when the cops were beating the shit out of “peacenik” demonstrators high on pot and mustard gas, we were sending cops to the hospital. I don’t give a damn what YOUR pathetic government says about the Jewish Defense League. I’m damned proud of what they did in an atmosphere of intimidated and gutless Jews.

  • Ruvy

    Fuck you, Ruvy, for endangering my life and the life of my family, as we live three blocks away from the site, and the fire you encourage could kill us.

    Finally, I have endangered nothing, Dillon. Your unwillingness and inability to recognize your enemies on your doorstep does threaten your family. And that, in the end, is your problem. Deal with it – or suffer the consequences. IT IS NOT MY PROBLEM. The dhimmitude of you Americans is YOUR problem.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Yes, I’m well aware that you spend your days carrying your little gun around and occasionally pointing it at the shadows you believe are out to get you, and you spend your night typing your little Talmudic death threats against those inhuman dogs, the Arabs, who want your land.

    Like I said, it’s completely cowardly to call for someone to burn down a religious building thousands of miles away. And it pisses me off, because I would be endangered by those flames you want someone else to start. So, no favors, I guess. I’ll stick with sniveling fear.

  • Bill B

    Haven’t read anything written by Ruvy in a long time.

  • Ruvy

    Actually all bombings are my problem because I am a member of the human race….

    Well, Doug, since you want to be a buttinski, remember that road is a two way highway….

    What a nice and kind invite to continue commenting on American affairs that don’t really worry me. Thank you, Doug!

    By the way, since “all bombings are your problem”, how much time have you got? I could dig up a whole passel of them to offload onto your shoulders. It’s just a few clicks to Yahoo!, you know….

  • doug m

    What a sad, deluded, pathetic fellow. Burning down a church or mosque or temple doesn’t create security. It perpetuates the violence you call for.

  • Baronius

    Ruvy, you still haven’t explained how to tell the difference between Wahhabi, Wahhabi-influenced, and non-Wahhabi Muslims. Or are you going to kill all of them?

  • doug m

    What on earth? As if you needed an invite to run your mouth and spew your hate-filled rants on this site

  • Ruvy

    Obviously, according to one “victory mosque” supporter, Jews haven’t learned the lessons of the holocaust.

    And then there is the partnership of this “Sufi” with a mosque with terrorist ties.

    People who curse me out and say I’m filled with “sniveling fear” won’t be interested in the real threats on their lives. But, hey, that’s not my problem! They’ll learn, in time. I have no worries. Not for them, anyway….

  • Dillon Mawler

    Ruvy:
    Any moron can see that the “enemy at my doorstep” is the one calling for the burning of a building down the street from me. That is you, so cut it the fuck out.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Sorry, Ruvy, still not scared of the supermuslims who are bulletproof and can fly and want me dead. You sound hysterical and stupid. Also, WorldNetDaily? lol.

  • Ruvy

    Dillon, there is no building next to you to burn down. There may be in the future – but that is partly up to you, isn’t it? And that building will be a threat to your life – and to your way of life. But, since you evidently refuse to see that, it will be up to someone else to – and to do something about it.

    Guess you must have moved into the area after the terrorists destroyed the WTC, eh? Otherwise, you would have realized that destroying the WTC was a threat to you, too….

    Or would that be asking too much?

  • Ruvy

    And I could care less whether you are scared or not. IT’S YOUR PROBLEM. Get used to that fact. And learn to deal with your problems. I have enough of my own, thank you…

  • Dillon Mawler

    I know who the threat is, and I’m not scared.

    The “problem” I’m dealing with right now is that some cowardly moron who lives thousands of miles away is calling for a building that we’re trying to build in my neighborhood to be burned down. So I’m expressing my opinion that such a call is cowardly, and rightly exposing the asshole calling for it as a violent idiot. Seems like most people agree.

  • Ruvy

    Dillon, this is my last comment on this thread. You are the one who called me a coward. You are the one who called me names. You are the one who said “fuck you”. You are the one who laughs real danger to your life in the face.

    Fine.

    So, let’s be crystal clear here. If this mosque is built (which I doubt will happen), and if someone decides to blow it up, and you are endangered by that action, I don’t give a damn. You are off my radar.

    There is such a thing as terminal stupidity. And you show every evidence of it.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Good to see you, Ruvy. You raging psychopath, you.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Hi Ruvy. Talked to those crazy ladies Pam Geller or Orly Taitz lately? The three of you could get matching tinfoil hats. They seem to be the source of much of your material of late.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Like most things that you type, that last comment is bullshit. You will definitely comment again on this thread. You can’t help it.

    I did call you a coward. You are.
    I did say fuck you for calling for violence in my neighborhood. Fuck you for doing that.
    I do laugh at what you think is dangerous, like I would laugh at the hysterical shrieks of any coward who lives in fear of boogeymen.

    This is my last comment on this thread.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Hey, Ruvy, I think I hear an Arab! Quick! No, that way!

    Wait, he’s behind you! I think he was speaking Wahabbi, too!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dillon and Ruvy (but mostly Dillon) –

    CHILL!

    Your swapping insults are something one would expect in a schoolyard, and not in a discussion among adults.

    And Dillon – I am on your side and strongly support the Muslims’ right to build that mosque (Ruvy and I have butted heads before), but you certainly took the insults further and thus deserve the greater rebuke. Also, understand your opponent – Ruvy is Jewish and IMO paranoia on his part is quite understandable (two millenia of persecution and massacres including the Ghettos, the Inquisition, the First Crusade, the Holocaust and much more) even if it wrongly colors his view of the world.

    Both of you – please keep your comments worthy of a discussion among well-meaning adults.

  • Dillon Mawler

    No, thanks. I’ll continue to expose to ridicule and scorn the idea that a religious building should be burned down, as Ruvy endorses. That’s just fucking evil, and there’s nothing wrong with saying so.

    And since I live a couple of blocks away, I think I’ll just continue in whatever tone I wish.

    Mom.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dillon –

    When you keep insults and profanity out of your writings, people take you more seriously. It’s just like showing up at a business meeting – will they take you more seriously if you wear pajamas or leathers? Or if you wear a business suit?

    If you use insults and profanity, though, you throw away any chance of having a fruitful conversation. Your opponent will simply ignore your arguments and you will stand NO chance of getting your point through.

    Me, I’m retired Navy – It’s extremely rare that I hear profanity or insults I haven’t heard (or used) before, and I’ve got quite a few choice insults and creative curses under my belt should I choose to use them…but I found long ago that if I do use them, I hurt my OWN credibility and, if anything, encourage sympathy for my opponent! I mean, sure – some may snicker at the insults, but those who agree with me because of the insults I use are NOT the people I want on my side!

    So if you want people to take you seriously, write (and speak) without insults and without profanity. Suddenly you’ll find respect from where you never expected it before.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “So if you want people to take you seriously, write (and speak) without insults and without profanity.”

    Fuck that. Dillon, write however you like. No one appointed Glenn the comment police. The fact that he thinks anyone could have a fruitful conversation with Ruvy shows how wrong his position is.

  • Dillon Mawler

    That was a touching life lesson, Mom.

    I’m not interested in “respect” from some pixels on the internet. I am interested in a wide range of people’s reactions to current events — in this case, the very specific call for a terrorist act made by a coward thousands of miles away. Fascinating that my use of “fuck” motivated you to wag your finger, but not that.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    El Bicho and Dillon –

    I’m not giving you orders – I’m giving a rebuke and ADVICE. If y’all wanna go ahead and make your arguments completely ineffective because you don’t see the value in what I’m telling you, that’s your right.

    And FYI, El B – I HAVE had a fruitful discussion with Ruvy…interestingly enough, it had to do with the anti-Muslim rhetoric he spouts. I pointed out to him that the more inflammatory his (and other Jews’) rhetoric, the more they give the Arabs a reason to hate them. Ruvy was grateful and gracious and said he’d consider it. True, his rhetoric hasn’t changed…but the seed may yet take root.

    It’s said that manners are the grease that lubricate the gears of society. Irritants are like sand in that grease…and if the lubrication is not effective, the gears grow hot and things go downhill from there.

    But again, it’s your right to make your arguments ineffectual by using insults and profanity. You can lead a horse to water….

  • zingzing

    “remember that road is a two way highway…”

    both ways leading to stupid, stupid places.

  • Ruvy

    Glenn,

    I took your lesson and used it with someone else, a young soldier who sent a string of curses in Arabic to one of the terrorist leaders. The terrorist responded in kind, and they swore at each other over one of the social media for about an hour or so. I pointed out to the soldier that a good military leader would never have responded with such language at all, but would instead write in a crafted and disciplined fashion, in a manner designed to intimidate, terrify, persuade – or enrage. A thug swears at you in response, I wrote the soldier, and that the terrorist in question was nothing more than an overpaid thug.

    The thug then wrote me – swearing at me as well; I took my own advice (and yours). I wrote him a note designed to enrage him by its content (and thus designed to entice him to make mistakes in judgment). But absent was all swearing as is found in the souk or from common midshipmen.

    As for Dillon Mawler, that was my last note to him on this thread. While he has very legitimate concerns, his willful blindness to the real threats to his family, and his contemptuous dismissal of the warnings of those threats constitutes terminal stupidity. It’s his problem, not mine, and he will suffer for it, if this unfortunate travesty is ever built in New York.

    And as he reads this note to you, he will discover that there is more than one form of contemptuous dismissal extant in the universe.

    But, I have to tell you, Glenn. Technology is a remarkable thing. That you and I can communicate this way – and that I could even attempt to play with this terrorist’s head with nothing more than a few keystrokes of my keyboard is nothing short of wondrous. While “the Awe of G-d is the beginning of Wisdom”, the awe for what man can work with His guidance certainly has its place in the world.

    Hopefully this note finds you and yours well.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn, I realize that the claims I made in my comment above seem a bit extravagant and exaggerated. They are the cold facts. E-mail me off line, and I’ll explain more. Find my e-mail address at my blogspot…

  • zingzing
  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “his rhetoric hasn’t changed…but the seed may yet take root.”

    So then it has yet to be fruitful as you stated. You do realize you didn’t even make it out of that paragraph before proving your claim false?

    I have seen plenty of people to your right on these boards say your arguments have been ineffective, so cursing must not be the stumbling block you make it out to be.

    And Dillon makes a great point about what you choose to rebuke in this thread.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Indeed. Something’s wrong when we’re piling on a guy for swearing but letting some lunatic ramble on about violent actions because it’s what we expect of him.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    El B –

    It hasn’t taken root? Look at Ruvy’s comment #63 above. The very fact that Ruvy considered it proves that the seed did indeed take root.

    And for Jordan –

    Why are you here on BC? Just to interact, to argue? Or to effect change, to stand up for what you believe is right? It’s the latter, of course, as it is with me. So that begs the question – should we try to help each other to be more effective? Should we hold each other to a higher standard so that we can be more effective? YES!

    If you think I’m “letting Ruvy ramble on”, then you haven’t seen some of our discussions. The reason I gave the greater rebuke to Dillon is because (1) he’s relatively new, (2) he – at least on this issue – is on our side, and (3) could obviously use a heads-up on what’s more effective.

    Ask yourself who’s more effective among the BC conservatives – Dave Nalle? Or Arch-Conservative? In fact, you’ll find nearly a strong correlation between who uses more profane language and insults, and who is least EFFECTIVE.

    Furthermore, if we GIVE more courtesy and respect even to our opponents, we will generally GET more respect. Conversely, if we give disrespect, we will only get disrespect in return. I really don’t think you’ll disagree with that.

    This certainly doesn’t mean that someone who uses more acceptable language will be more effective…but only that someone who uses less acceptable language WILL be more likely to be less effective than he or she would otherwise.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And for Ruvy –

    Thank you. As much as you and I have butted heads, that means a great deal to me.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Glenn,

    I’m here on BC because I publish articles here (mostly music reviews) and because I like to interact and have something to do when I’m bored. I wandered into the politics section one fateful day when I was checking out the site and haven’t had the good sense to wander back out again.

    I mainly find what passes for discussion in the politics section to be a giant waste of time, especially compared to the types of political discussions I usually have with my friends and family.

    People here are too stuck in their positions and too dedicated to upholding their rhetorical tricks that it’s more of a competition than it is a series of intelligent discussions. People come here to show off and to “win” arguments.

    In terms of “higher standards of efficacy,” that’s all subjective. Telling the “new guy” not to swear or use profanity is akin to scolding and that’s something I just find silly. Dillon, in your view, needed help being more “effective.” In my view, he was and is doing just fucking fine. Thank you very fucking much. Hence my reaction to what I believe to be the greater evil in these ridiculous comments – and they are ridiculous, sunshine, all of them.

    I don’t view others here are my “opponents,” Glenn, so right there you’re going to run into a bit of a problem with how I relate to others here. Again, I’m not trying to win souls for the Kingdom. You may well be, I don’t know and I honestly don’t care.

    You know what I’d like to see more often here? People saying “I don’t know.” Or how about “I don’t have any idea.”

    I’d like to see a little fucking humility now and then instead of people so damned afraid of admitting a mistake on the internet that they run away from the argument never to be heard from on the topic again. The only recent example I can think of is from Baronius when he told me “I don’t know” in response to a theology question I had. He didn’t fake knowing like I have hundreds of times and he didn’t go hunt around for a Wikipedia page to bolster his lack of knowledge. That simple gesture, not of scolding or rebuking or telling people how to post to be more “effective,” was perhaps the most important interaction I’ve had here. The rest have, by and large, been all bullshit.

    Why is it so rare?

    Because we see each other as opponents and we see our interactions as contests to win.

    I am honestly not going to “effect change” with a nutty internet comment, Glenn. If you believe you are, go right ahead and keep on with it. All the best to you, too.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And look, Dillon was talking about something very personal to him. He’s well within his rights and was very effective in communicating that notion with some doltbag that lives thousands of miles away and whose only actual information on the matter comes from people just as bigoted and just as ignorant as he is.

    Dillon wasn’t here to win an argument or convince Ruvy to join his side and see things clearly. He was here to interact and to share his disgust, rightly fucking so too. He let Ruvy have it with both barrels and, by God, Ruvy deserved every ounce of vitriol aimed his way. And no, Ruvy’s not going to change for that. Just like Ruvy’s didn’t change his mind even when I calmly explain to him that he’s wrong about the Muslim Brotherhood and the Wahhabi connection he thinks exists. He believes what he wants whether it’s true or not.

    And good for him, too. A Ruvy without an insane degree of commitment to even the most violence of convictions just isn’t the same.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Also, stop using caps lock. They aren’t as “effective” as italics.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    I’ll not waste my time commenting on Jordan’s remarks. It’s a waste of time. I know about the Wahhabi here because daily they threaten my life and that of my family. And I do mean threaten. It is not for nothing that the Israeli buses that travel through Judea and Samaria are bullet proof, and that people fear to come out here on common business rounds.

    What none of you get is that life is lived more intensely here – in Israel and the Levant generally – than in the west. We do not know when war will break out, and we have seen it break out with stunning suddenness. The fools among you – and you are truly fools – call us “drama queens”.

    The more you have a Wahhabi presence among you in North America, the more you will be subject to their sudden violence. And you will also live life more on the edge – like we do here.

    And now I have serious business to attend to. Good day.

  • zingzing

    “caps lock RULES. you don’t have to mess with any of that stupid html shit. and putting “quotation marks” around something just makes it seem “sarcastic.””

    see what i did there? yeah? awesome.

    i’m going to have to say that ruvy, for all those bags of nuts he totes around with him, is just an angry old man half way across the globe. his rhetoric is hateful and violent. but it’s just rhetoric. he talks loud and then claims he’s too old to go and fight a war. he IS too damn old to be spouting such shit. people should understand the value of life by that point. and that wasting your life hating and bloodlusting is just a fool’s game. and he is a coward.

    that said, he’s not alone in wasting his life on this shit. radical islam does it. a bunch of people on the american right wing are getting pulled into it.

    the shit ruvy spouts is not original. there are probably a few million american dumbass rednecks out there (who don’t live in new york city, so don’t care if they pull another 9/11 in the city,) who think the same dumbshit way.

    if i was ruvy, i’d say, “if some dumbass stupid rightwing american dipshit motherfuckin’ redneck blows up downtown new york, i’m going to his town and blowing that downtown up.” but you know what? that’s stupid. downtown buttfuck, alabama had nothing to do with it. some asshole who doesn’t know shit did. and i’d rather punish that asshole. or let his cellmate take over at that point.

    /end rant full of cursing.

    (see glenn, cursing’s alright. it makes its point and gets out of the way. right? fuckin’ right.)

  • zingzing

    “And now I have serious business to attend to. Good day.”

    i bet.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jordan –

    I’d like to see a little fucking humility now and then instead of people so damned afraid of admitting a mistake on the internet that they run away from the argument never to be heard from on the topic again.

    I don’t want to be accused of being proud in my humility, but you will find no one else in BC politics who has publicly owned up to being wrong as often as I have. Dave, Clavos, and Roger would all attest to that fact…though Dave and Clavos might give a rather off-color opinion of what I’ve done and why. Furthermore, not only do I almost never use profanity worse than ‘crap’, but I also defy you to find even one insult I’ve posted – ever! I have not been the least hypocritical in my advice in this thread to Dillon, El B, and you. I gave the advice because this particular standard to which I’ve held myself has served me well.

    You see, to me it’s more important to be factual than it is to protect my pride by insisting I must be right no matter what…and when I’m proven wrong, I make it a point to apologize and show sincere gratitude to the one who proved me wrong. I do it not to make anyone happy (’cause it sure doesn’t make me happy) but because it’s the right thing to do.

    I’m not afraid of being wrong – I’m only afraid of stubbornly remaining wrong because I’m too prideful to admit the other guy’s right. I’m the only one that I’ve ever seen in a political or religious form to hold to this standard, to this degree. It does suck having to eat crow every so often, but the benefits are pretty nice. That said, Jordan, what do you think about holding yourself to that standard – no cussing, no insults, always admitting when one is wrong even to the ones who despise you the most? It ain’t easy…but it’s worth it. I can promise you that.

    So…you didn’t directly accuse me of a lack of humility, but if you do want to question my integrity, don’t ask me. Instead, ask those who most often take the views opposite of mine (my ‘opponents’, as it were): Clavos and Dave. Roger’s got a great deal of credibility to all sides, so please ask him too.

    Now – look back at Ruvy’s comment #63. Do you not see how Ruvy took the same advice that I gave to Dillon to heart and how it served him? That statement in and of itself shows the proof of what I’ve been trying to tell you. And FYI, Ruvy’s no more insane or paranoid than our own Dave Nalle who claimed that Obama was deliberately trying to ruin America’s economy so he could maintain his hold on power. In fact, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find someone that didn’t believe in at least some sort of conspiracy theory that the rest of us think is completely whacked. Ruvy and Dave have theirs, almost anyone who’s religious has at least one, and I’ve surely got mine. How about you?

    I’ll be the first to admit I’m often wrong, and I’m grateful when someone proves me wrong. But in this matter I’m not wrong. You see the proof in comment #63.

    But I’ll take your criticism about using all-caps on board. I’ll still use them every now and then, but I’ll agree that italics are more effective. Thank you.

    On an aside, I must wonder if this is why organizing liberals (or at least non-neo-cons) is compared to ‘herding cats’?

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Re: Laura, comment #14.

    How is that the “answer?” Ippolito’s banging on about the same hippy bullshit that I’m complaining about in this piece. It brought tears to my eyes, but not for the reason you hoped for.

    “Convenient possibilities” over “principles”?! C’mon. What’s ironic is that these great principles these would-be Constitutionalists are squawking about — like granting amnesty to every illegal that hops the border and granting the right to build a 9/11 Victory Mosque — will be the downfall of our country, not the strengethening of it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    See, Glenn?

    The lefties on here can’t take the truth when it is told them, no matter how diplomatically. And were I to respond in kind, I’d be banned, and my comment deleted. At some point, when I have decided that posting articles here is a total waste of my time, I will respond in kind, and I will get banned here. And I won’t give a damn. The site has gone downhill terribly, and most of the folks I respect have walked away from it. When I find the adequate substitute, so will I.

    And a note to zing. Our beknighted comments moderator has banned me (not you – ain’t that fair?) from using profanity. And you know what? The comment threads would look better without it. I hate to give him credit for anything, but when he is right, he is right.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Zing re: #22:

    They could hardly be sneaky about it, could they? They want to convert a building in New York City into a mosque/Islamic “community” center; it’s going to get noticed.

    I actually do think the Sufis are moderates and fairly tolerant: Problem is, the great majority of them are in India grappling with the Hindus. I just don’t think Feisal is being honest about his dealings and the links he has to extemists, as Ruvy pointed out. I think the whole Sufi thing is a ruse — I wouldn’t be surprised when Saudi Arabian Wahabbist funds start filling their coffers.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Ruvy: “I’m simply predicting that there are some with the sense to do what needs to be done – even when most of the sheeple in your country have neither the brains nor the guts to.”

    Amen to that!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    Now what you don’t get about Ruvy is that he is right that life is lived more intensely there than in the U.S. I see it here in the PI, too. Why? In Israel it’s because of the constant threat of attack. In the PI, it’s because of the constant beat-down of life in a developing country.

    In a stable, prosperous, peaceful country (which America still largely is), little gripes (“They’re a-gonna raise my taxes!”) become really big gripes…whereas in other nations, national security (invasion by all your neighboring countries) and feeding one’s family (in a truly poor country) are a lot closer to center stage.

    People from outside the U.S. and the first-world Anglo nations shake their heads to see us putting people in jail for neglecting animals, to hear of an American teenager in tears because his parents won’t buy him a car, to see a country whose biggest health problem is obesity!

    I disagree with Ruvy about a lot of things, but I’m not so ignorant that I’m going to dismiss everything he says. Life is certainly lived more intensely outside the U.S.

    I recommend that we not be so quick to dismiss what’s said by those who think differently than we do.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    A parable for you gentlemen to learn from. About 2,100 years ago the Seleucid king who ruled here demanded that Jews sacrifice to him personally, and that the sacrifice should be a pig. In Modi’im, on the site of the modern city of Modi’in, a former high priest watched as the Greek Syrians unrolled the scroll and read the orders from Seleucia.

    An old man stepped forward to make the sacrifice. The High Priest, Matthew Hashmonai, stepped forward, unsheathed his sword and stabbed the old man to death. He had committed murder!

    Then he screamed, “those who are for the G-d of Israel, to me!” He his sons, and a number of other individuals fled the scene, becoming fugitives from the law, murderers and traitors both in the eyes of the sitting regime – both in Jerusalem, and in Seleucia.

    Sometimes, that is what it takes. A far different man, in a far different setting, affixed his signature to a document in handwriting large enough that a nearly blind man could see it. I believe John Hancock said on the occasion, “if this be treason, then let’s make the most of it!”

    Both actions brought about war and revolutionary change where they occurred. YOUR tradition is the second one. Do you forget it, and you will lose your freedom, what little of it that remains.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Yeah, I know. But I’m a-gonna keep butting my head against that brick wall until it breaks or until I get stupid.

    Oh, wait – I’m already stupid! I guess that means I’m gonna keep at it, right?

    Maybe if I aim for that there brick just so….

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    If this is about American values, then I’ve got one: “Don’t Tread On Me.” Or is that no longer relevant since we’re more concerned with finding politically correct excuses in the Constitution to support and ignore obvious travesties?

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Ruvy: “The lefties on here can’t take the truth when it is told them, no matter how diplomatically. And were I to respond in kind, I’d be banned, and my comment deleted.”

    That’s because you’re Jewish. Par for the course, really. But I’m sure you already knew that.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I am truly surprised that comment #85 hasn’t drawn Chris Rose out of his lair.

    No, Mark, Chris wants me banned because of my views – they do not conform with his standards of what is acceptable.

    But he holds me to a higher standard than you because he alleges I have a history of hateful comments. He does too, but a dog generally doesn’t smell his own manure. Besides, as they say RHIP. However, Jew-hatred is not part of his formula (at least consciously).

    By his lights, neither is hatred of Israel. I say “by his lights” because his views are typical for an average Brit – anti-Israel. But compared to many, he is not for our extermination, nor the destruction of the state, nor for a whole load of other things the Wahhabi loudly push for in the UK.

    He is not a leftist, either. He is a businessman, and like most businessmen doesn’t like high taxes, bureaucracy, etc. etc. But he has a view not dissimilar to mine of how an economy should be organized, he takes the higher level of gov’t interference in personal life as a given – as do most Israelis.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    with godspeed, zing. and you’ve certainly CAPPED it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Shoot, my comment was posted as response to #75. Little did I now there was another page-full in progress.

    This thread carries a great promise. I hope it never ends.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    right estimate of Chris, Ruvy, except for one thing; he’s not anti-Israel, just anti Israel policies.

    As to use of profanity, it goes beyond mere words. There is no hatred in zing; you, however, do seem to project hatred in almost every comment (and that’s whether you want it to or not). I do agree with Glenn that the intensity of life you live and the immediate dangers you face must have their impact. But BC comments section is ill-suited for expressions of frustration, not in the long run. After a while, one gets tired of constant ravings and rants, the elements of truth they may contain notwithstanding, and expect a person to take control of themselves and speak responsibly.
    If even if Archie has his moments of sobriety now and then amidst a flurry of emotional confusing and nasty invectives, so can you. And expectations attached to you are greater because you’re older than him and presumably more mature.

    As to Dave Nalle, Glenn has done him great disservice to liken him to a run-of-the mill fanatic. Dave may be opportunistic at times, and perhaps his political ambitions influence at times what he says, but a fanatic Mr. Nalle definitely is not. One has got to be able to distinguish when Mr. Nalle speaks ex cathedra (so to speak) and when he’s a good old chap, as regular as you and me.

    Mr. Nalle is a performer, Glenn. Don’t confuse the performance with the persona behind.

  • Jordan Richardson

    and putting “quotation marks” around something just makes it seem “sarcastic.”

    “Really?” Because that wasn’t “at all” what I was going for.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Glenn #76,

    The first paragraph of your post is a needless defence against hypocrisy. I don’t care. I don’t care if you’ve never sworn or if you don’t insult people. Honestly, saying it like that just makes you seem self-righteous.

    In terms of being factual, you’ll remember that it was only a couple of days ago that you and I had a little run-in with some other posters here about the use of facts and how apparently your use of facts wasn’t “proving” anything. See, that’s a perfect example of what I mean. You can prove something clearly and most of the regulars here will still cling to their well-worn arguments. Old dogs, new tricks, something something.

    More of your post goes on with defending yourself and I feel I need to reiterate that I wasn’t specifically attacking you. I even lumped myself in with what I find wrong with the place.

    The rest, the part about having made opponents out of each other and reasons for posting, you ignored so I guess the conversation’s dead on that end. And here I thought you’d asked me a question on that score…

    In terms of caps lock, what do I care? It was a joke about your “rebuke” over how others post. See, anyone can take any single aspect of a person’s way of speaking and twist it to mean what they want if they’re hellbent on it. Profanity can make someone seem angry, upset, frustrated, or just dumb. It can also be an incredibly brilliant way of communicating. As can throwing in italics, caps lock, quotes, whatever. Everyone has their own flavour they bring and that’s one of the great things about talking and interacting with others in a way such as this. I’d never want to change that. Ever.

    The rest of this “it’s because you’re Jewish” crap infesting this thread is continued reinforcement to my original point. This place is, honestly, mostly filled with bullshit.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Roger #90, to an extent we’re all performers.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ruvy #73,

    I don’t doubt that I don’t have the first bloody clue what it’s like to live where you live and go through what you go through. I don’t doubt that some of your commentary comes from places of heightened sensitivity when it comes to enemies and war and so forth. Those are things I truly hope to never understand.

    But you have to realize that there are some things that you are just flat-out wrong about. Just like there are things I am wrong about. When you spout off about what’s going on in my province or my country, you are, believe it or not, sometimes wrong. And when I spout off about Israel or, like I did recently, South Africa, I am subject to being incredibly, mind-numbingly wrong in ways that few humans could be. Great.

    But the facts, believe it or not, are not always on your side. When you’re wrong, you’re wrong. Admit it sometime and you might learn something about yourself.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The rest of this “it’s because you’re Jewish” crap infesting this thread….

    Jordan, don’t put words in Glenn’s mouth that he did not speak. Mark wrote that. And do note who hasn’t complained of Jew-hatred…. Oh, there is a lot of personal animosity sluicing through here, but no Jew-hatred that I could sense.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Comment #85 was a sarcastic joke. That should have been obvious. And I definitely was not criticizing BC or its editorial policy. (That should sate Mr. Rose) … it was my sardonic take on the larger way of the world.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jordan –

    Then you and I have no further need to discuss aught.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    As to Dave Nalle, Glenn has done him great disservice to liken him to a run-of-the mill fanatic.

    Roger, I did no such thing. I actually pointed out that we’re all not so very different:

    In fact, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find someone that didn’t believe in at least some sort of conspiracy theory that the rest of us think is completely whacked. Ruvy and Dave have theirs, almost anyone who’s religious has at least one, and I’ve surely got mine.

    I don’t see how that comment is in any way a disservice to Dave…because that comment applies to almost everyone this side of Heaven. Come to think of it, if a person didn’t believe is some sort of theory or conspiracy that most other people thought was nutso, that person would be pretty doggone boring, wouldn’t it? That person would be forever thinking ‘inside the box’, wouldn’t he? I’ve got my theories that most humans would think are nuts…and you probably do, too. And there’s nothing wrong with that!

    No, I did Dave no disservice, and I think he’d agree with me!

  • zingzing

    glenn: “Now what you don’t get about Ruvy is that he is right that life is lived more intensely there than in the U.S. I see it here in the PI, too.”

    i didn’t say anything about it. but i’m not sorry i don’t live in a developing warzone or in a state of “constant beat-down.” sorry that i’m not sorry though, i guess… it’s certainly different, but so is the south of france, and given the opportunity, i’d have to go for slow paced (boring, but beautiful) over shitty, shitty (but exciting, i guess).

    plus, i’m young, i live in nyc and i do dangerous things. so, say what you will. i’m living life pretty lively right now.

  • Clavos

    This whole discussion was and is silly.

    “Ground Zero” is just a piece of land — there is nothing “sacred” about it.

    The site in question isn’t even on “Ground Zero,” it’s blocks away. Let them put their “mosque” wherever they want — it means nothing except to Muslim believers, who like all faithists, are deluded anyway.

    Meh.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The day I agreed totally with one of Clavos’s comments was Aug 31,2010 @ 3:54 pm, #99!

    LOL

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    I didn’t say you had to be sorry about it. I simply said it is a fact. Most of us with families would certainly prefer to live where life isn’t “on the edge”.

    I guess what I’m getting to is that with most human beings, the fewer troubles they face, the less grateful they are for the blessings they have…and I’ve noted several times on BC that the people here in the Philippines where I’m at (until Saturday this time) are generally happier people than people back stateside.

    Don’t get me wrong! I’m not somehow saying that people in miserable situations are somehow happier! Nobody, but nobody (at least no sane person) wants misery or hardship or danger to one’s family. But those who’ve known such problems are in my experience better able to appreciate the blessings they do have.

    What Ruvy said mirrors my own observation that life is more vital, more alive here.

    But let me put this in a way you might better understand – have you ever lived out in the country? Or in a small town? If so, how did life in those places compare to life where you’re at right now?

    That difference partially explains what Ruvy and I are talking about…but only partially, because in many ways in NYC you feel you’re on top of the world, do you not?

    But if you haven’t lived in a nation and culture truly outside the one you know, then you cannot know what you’re missing. You might find – as Ruvy and I both found – that there are better, happier places to live than in America.

    zing, if you’re still young and unattached, I strongly recommend that if you can, travel the world. Go on the roads less traveled – and spend a few years doing it if you can. If you do so, you’ll gain a wealth of wisdom you’d not have otherwise, and a priceless lifetime of stories and lessons to tell your children and your grandchildren.

    Think about it –

  • Clavos

    zing, if you’re still young and unattached, I strongly recommend that if you can, travel the world. Go on the roads less traveled – and spend a few years doing it if you can. If you do so, you’ll gain a wealth of wisdom you’d not have otherwise, and a priceless lifetime of stories and lessons to tell your children and your grandchildren.

    Think about it -

    Very good advice — for anyone, of any age, not just the young. Nothing broadens an individual’s outlook and education as well as exposure to other peoples and cultures.

    That’s practically a cliché, I know, but like so many clichés, it’s grounded in Truth.

  • Bill B

    I live just outside NYC. I’ve traveled a good bit within the US though only to Canada outside the US. Kinda doesn’t count. I definitely get what Glenn is saying but I REALLY like where I am. All 4 seasons, 20 minutes into the city if I so choose – for the tons of stuff that it offers – 40 minutes the other way and I could be milking cows or picking apples. To me it’s the best of both worlds.

    The way people live and the so-called vitality of the culture etc. is another kettle of fish. It’s so subjective – one mans heaven can be another mans hell. How people ARE is yet another issue – those who you surround yourself with is largely a matter of choice but also how you comport yourself and in turn who YOU attract.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The operative word is “fanatic,” Glenn. Ruvy and Dave are worlds apart on that score.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘Fanatic’, Roger?

    Perhaps. But have you lived in a country where not so long ago, ALL the neighboring countries (with support from yet MORE countries) invaded you on the same day with the stated aim of erasing your race from the face of the Earth?

    If you live through a disaster that nearly ended all that you hold dear, Roger, you tend to become fairly paranoid about that kind of disaster in the future (I’m that way about tsunamis). Ruvy wasn’t there for the Six Day War, or for the one in 1973, but he has been there for the rockets from the Gaza Strip – constant reminders of the hatred that so many bear Israel, of entire nations that see it as their duty before God to bring a violent end to the Jewish race.

    While I don’t condone much of what Israel does, neither will I condemn them for feeling as paranoid as they do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you suggesting all Israelis feel and think the way Ruvy does? And if they don’t, then there must be some personal characteristic he brings into the situation (unless of course you’d care to dismiss all his compatriots who do not share his exact sentiments as being deranged).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you suggesting all Israelis feel and think the way Ruvy does? And if they don’t, then there must be some personal characteristic he brings into the situation (unless of course you’d care to dismiss all his compatriots who do not share his exact sentiments as being deranged).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A couple of points, “Bill Bailey.”

    If you were arguing in “conservative terms,” good for you. There’s no better way to demonstrate the double standard (what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander). Of course, all hotheads are blind to the very principles they uphold dearly when those very principles are invoked on behalf of those they deem different from themselves. Either you belong to the same club or the rules simply don’t apply – human nature. So if sarcasm was intended, cool. I use the same ploy now and then only to be construed as having spoken universally.

    As to laws being either just or draconian “self-evident” proposition, it’s a meaningful question only in the realm of theory. It’s also meaningful in practice if you accept the validity of the state and its framework. If you question that validity, however – which I do, especially as regards American state – then the question becomes moot. All its laws are “draconian” because they serve to protect the interest of the ruling classes which are represented by “the state.” And the distinction between just and unjust laws evaporates as well, propagating nothing but an illusion. No law can be just if it issues from an unjust state – “laws” being merely some of its instruments.

    Lastly, there’s still a question as to your use of the term “un-American.” You say that fear-mongering is un-American. I beg to differ, it’s very American in fact, whether we look at our distant past or the more recent history. It’s as American in fact as hype, and we invented the term.

    So then again, it all depends on whether you’re speaking here with a straight face or not.

    There is of course a distinct possibility that you’re using the term in an ideal/ized sense, but that’s a whole other ball of wax.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    No, I am not suggesting any such thing. I certainly am suggesting, however, being more than a little paranoid about Israel’s security is quite understandable…and considering the threats they’ve faced since their nation’s founding, such paranoia should frankly be expected.

    To put it another way, Roger – remember the Cold War? Not all of us were paranoid about it, but some of us were. I was. Now imagine if America were surrounded on every side by Communist countries who might not like each other, but are united in their hate of America. They are united in their desire to get rid of all Americans from the face of the earth.

    Now imagine that they’d already invaded us in concert within your living memory…and while one or two of them might be less antagonistic anymore, others aren’t. Would you then be paranoid about communists as a whole? Maybe, or maybe not – but there’d be a LOT of Americans who would.

    That’s the position Israel’s in. Paranoia by some – or even many – of them is quite understandable.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    No, I am not suggesting any such thing. I certainly am suggesting, however, being more than a little paranoid about Israel’s security is quite understandable…and considering the threats they’ve faced since their nation’s founding, such paranoia should frankly be expected.

    To put it another way, Roger – remember the Cold War? Not all of us were paranoid about it, but some of us were. I was. Now imagine if America were surrounded on every side by Communist countries who might not like each other, but are united in their hate of America. They are united in their desire to get rid of all Americans from the face of the earth.

    Now imagine that they’d already invaded us in concert within your living memory…and while one or two of them might be less antagonistic anymore, others aren’t. Would you then be paranoid about communists as a whole? Maybe, or maybe not – but there’d be a LOT of Americans who would.

    That’s the position Israel’s in. Paranoia by some – or even many – of them is quite understandable.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    wonder what’s up with the ‘double-double’ posts? This ain’t basketball….

  • Zedd

    Mark,

    You are missing the most important lesson of this entire issue. THEY had nothing to do with 911. Being a member of a several thousand years old religion does not make you responsible for the actions of everyone who claims to adhere to that religion PERIOD. Believing that it does makes you either an idiot or a bigot. If you are a bigot, it means you are an idiot. So you would have to be an idiot. FULL STOP

  • Dillon Mawler

    So now Mark Edward Manning joins Ruvy in calling for terrorism in my neighborhood. We have had enough terrorism from assholes like you, Ruvy and Bin Laden in my neighborhood.

    Fuck you, Mark Edward Manning, for expressly supporting terrorism. Sad that I have to defend my neighborhood from folks like Ruvy and Mark Edward Manning who want it burnt down.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jordan, don’t put words in Glenn’s mouth that he did not speak. Mark wrote that.

    Didn’t say Glenn said it, Ruvy. I mentioned it as being “in this thread” and was speaking generally. It backs my point, yet again, about these threads being “mostly bullshit.”

  • Clavos

    Attack alert!

    Cleanup on aisle 113…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not quite, Dillon. Mark has been in London town for quite some time now, and I’m certain that the more cosmpolitan surroundings have rubbed off and polished the American rough edges. It’s just that the subject is still so unthinkable to many Americans – the very fact that anyone dared attack on on our own ground.

    Of course, the Brits don’t hold that kind of animosity towards the Germans for bombing England, not only because it was part of war; more importantly, perhaps, because the Germans are “distant cousins.”

    So you can imagine of course the intensity of America’s outrage to suffer a blow at the hands of Middle Eastern terrorists: as far as “we” are concerned, it wasn’t only an act of lawlessness; to make matters worse, they’re Arabs, or whatever.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Roger:
    I’m afraid I don’t understand your argument that Manning doesn’t “quite” call for terrorism. I really just don’t get the denotative meaning, or the connection between his living in London and his directly calling for an act of terrorism — ie for a building in my neighborhood to be burnt down.

    Sounds like you’re kind of teasing him, but I don’t get it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ll just best let him answer this himself.

  • Mark

    sounds like a budding expatriotic conspiracy to me…very hush-hush and veiled

  • Ruvy

    Are you suggesting all Israelis feel and think the way Ruvy does?

    Not all Israelis feel and think like I do. But a huge number think like I do and have a dislike both for the United States GOVERNMENT and for the sitting puppet of a prime minister.

    It’s hard to attempt to say how they feel. I’m an immigrant, and most Israelis are natives. And that does make a huge difference. But while I wasn’t here physically for the 1967 war, I was sure as hell here emotionally; the same holds true for 1973 – even more so. And I was here for the Second Intifiada (2000-2004) and for the Second Lebanon War of 2006.

    What you do not get is that I DO NOT HATE ARABS! If I did, then all the crap I read about being an extremist would be true. Arabs live here, and as long as they live here, they are my neighbors, and I prefer to live with my neighbors in peace. But they have to be willing to live with me in peace.

    I do hate terrorists, Arab or otherwise, I do hate the scum who encourage these terrorists, whatever their nationality, and I hate the bought out traitors at the top who sell us out in Israel. That is not extremism. That is merely prudence.

    What may bother some of you is that I want to see vengeance on all the human trash that have persecuted us for 1,700 years. But I say what lots and lots of Jews feel deep in their hearts – and have trouble admitting.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Ruvy today: I do hate terrorists, Arab or otherwise, I do hate the scum who encourage these terrorists, whatever their nationality,

    Ruvy yesterday: I’m not calling for arson. I’m simply predicting that there are some with the sense to do what needs to be done

    Ruvy: This is my last comment on this thread.
    Dillon: “Bullshit. You will definitely comment again on this thread.”
    Ruvy: As for Dillon Mawler, that was my last note to HIM on this thread.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Off the record, on the QT, and very hush-hush…
    LA Confidential

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I want to see vengeance on all the human trash that have persecuted us for 1,700 years.”

    You must have been keeping a record if you can trace them through the aeons.

    Or does it translate, roughly, to seven generations that the sons shall be deemed guilty on account of the sins of their fathers.

  • Dillon Mawler

    Roger, that’s a hilarious satire of something you must think I suggested. It’s really funny, calling for an act of terrorism in my neighborhood like Ruvy and Mark Edward Manning are.

    It’s true, though, that pointing out that someone is endorsing terrorism means one thinks there’s a secret conspiracy involving two assholes on the Internet. You’ve got me there.

    I get it that you don’t believe expressly supporting terrorism is worth criticizing and that it’s funny when someone does so.

  • Dillon Mawler

    I refer to the witty #123

  • Ruvy

    Comment #122. There is a comment whose wisdom, depth sagacity and intelligence I truly admire.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What else can you do, Dillon? To take them seriously would only justify their mindset.

    I wasn’t thinking it in any overt kind of way, but I guess it must have been a subliminal thought.

  • zingzing

    glenn: “zing, if you’re still young and unattached, I strongly recommend that if you can, travel the world.”

    i have traveled around the world and have seen many different cultures. i’ve lived outside of this country. i’m old enough to know what i want and how i want to live.

    “You might find – as Ruvy and I both found – that there are better, happier places to live than in America.”

    i don’t doubt it. but do you think I (as in me) would be happier living in israel? no. i want to live in a metropolis with arts and culture from around the world, surrounded by people from everywhere. i think i’ve found my spot.

    “What Ruvy said mirrors my own observation that life is more vital, more alive here.”

    that depends on what you want, doesn’t it? i might be bored out of my mind or scared shitless. i’ve lived in small cities, rural backwaters, college towns, sprawling metropolises, gorgeous places, ugly places, rainy places, hot places, cold places…

    wouldn’t you like to live in a city as vibrant as new york? if not, then maybe what you want is different from what i want. maybe people have different ideas about what “more vital, more alive” is.

  • Clavos

    I grew up in what is now the largest city in the Americas. It is every bit as “vibrant” and with at least as much culture, plus MUCH more history, as it was as old as NY is now when Peter Stuyvesant cheated the Indians out of Manhattan.

    You remind me of my mom, zing, who was a real New Yorker, having been born, raised and educated through college, all within the five boroughs. She left there in the forties,never again returned for more than a short visit, spent most of her young adulthood in my city above, traveled to all of the great metropolises of the world, and still never stopped insisting that NY was the center of the universe.

    New Yorkers…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing’s love of NY parallels that of many Southern writers who, once they’ve escaped their rigid and parochial upbringing and “narrow minded ways” (I’m not saying that was the case with you, zing), they found their milieu, a place they can thrive in.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I’m also a transplanted southerner in NYC and it is certainly the center of the universe, for good or ill. New Yorkers love and hate our city, but we don’t like it when outsiders criticize the place.

    [I’m quite fond of London and San Francisco too. And if I spoke French I’d probably want to live in Paris.]

  • Ruvy

    My Building Permit:

    I just applied for a building permit for a new house.

    It is going to be 100 ft tall and 400 ft wide with 9 turrets at various heights and windows all over the place and a loud outside entertainment sound system. It will have parking for 200 cars and I am going to paint it snot green with pink trim.

    The City Council told me to go to hell.

    So I sent in the application again, but this time I called it a mosque.

    Work starts on Monday.

  • Bill B

    Ha! Bill Bailey! I had to look him up – I guess I give you a chuckle huh roger? I do play guitar as well if that helps any.

    Anyway. I suppose it wasn’t so much sarcasm as much as ‘c’mon, this is something you guys supposedly believe in!’ but close enough.

    I’m not quite as cynical as you but I get where you’re coming from. Even if one accepts your premise you have to admit some laws shed sunlight on the hellish perversion that reigns now. It’s just that those in power have learned how to game the system while “allowing” those rays of sunlight. That being said your position in a nutshell could be summed up by a line of a tune; “Don’t lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools”

    I truly get that as well but I guess I have hope that real change can eventually be brought to this country – unfortunately it would be incremental and not likely in my lifetime but I still choose to involve myself so as to do what I can, however miniscule that might be, toward that end.

    I think the structure of our system needs some changes, not the least of which getting big money’s influence out of the process, before real change can happen. I may be howlin at the moon but the way I see it there aren’t enough howling – too many are too comfortable with things as they are I reckon.

    I probably agree with you more than I let on roger, but I do believe that there are greener pastures ahead – where and when I don’t know – or even if it’ll be here!

    You’re conflating ‘un-american’ with ‘fear mongers’ because they appeared back to back as if the latter partly defined the former when the latter was meant as ‘in addition to’ more than anything.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Bill, I just couched your argument in a different framework, let’s say for arguments say.

    I don’t doubt we shall undergo major systemic changes – of that I’m certain. So I’m not as cynical as it may appear. I don’t believe, however, those changes will come about out of anyone’s benevolence or good will. America’s hand shall be forced by geopolitical and economic forces beyond our control. It’s already happening, for crying out loud, and Obama’s presidency, aptly termed by Clavos as the first post-American presidency, is but a transition. Ultimately, history will have its final say.

    As for me, I, too, do what I can; so we’re in the same boat, I guess. I don’t entertain any illusions, however, that the present system, as it stands, will survive. It’s on its last leg.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    Point taken…but I still agree with Clavos.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy #127 –

    Comment #122. There is a comment whose wisdom, depth sagacity and intelligence I truly admire.

    Quoted for truth!

  • Bill B

    You’re right roger – whether from outside or inside our borders historically real change has pretty much dragged those in power along for the ride – or been a function of no other viable direction being available and our choice made for us.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Roger re: #116 — I’m American, yes, but I’m not from some hicksville. I grew up, was schooled in and worked in Boston. I’ve had my fair share of big-city experiences and had friends of all stripes in school (both high school and college). I was already cosmopolitan by the time I first arrived in London. Not having a go at you, just sayin’.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Hey! I resent this statement.

    I’m American, yes, but I’m not from some hicksville.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Many wonderful people live in hicksville.

    :D

  • STM

    I’m inclined to agree with Mark up to a point, although it’s got nothing to do with rights and constitutions.

    The simple fact of the matter is this: 3000 people died at the hands of islamic nutcases on 9/11.

    I agree with Obama’s notion that because Americans should uphold the right of people to worship freely.

    But near THIS site?

    The whole idea is just in really bad taste and the islamic community and whoever else is pushing this should be held accountable for their stupidity in even suggesting that a mosque, or “interfaith centre”, go here.

    The proposal was totally inappropriate from the get go.

    And don’t tell me that no one involved in this plan understood this would cause a drama, either, and grate on the sensibilities of many Americans, because I don’t buy it.

    I’m inclined to agree with their right to have a place of worship anywhere that is deemed legal by the local authorities, but it seems to me to have been a really out-there idea in the first place.

    You can’t legislate to stop people worshipping, and nor should you be able to do so.

    Unfortunately, you can’t legislate against gross stupidity, either.

    And, sadly, that’s one thing we’d all like to be able to legislate against.

    Ultimately, I suspect there’s a certain bloody-mindedness in some sections of the community in their determination to have this go ahead, and I can understand why some people are mightily pissed off.

    On the other hand, the reaction against it is out of all proportion.

    Someone should just take someone else aside and explain quietly and sensibly why it’s completely inappropriate to have a mosque near ground zero and why it’s affecting thre sensibilities of so many.

    If they still can’t see that, then the blood-minded argument holds much water.

  • STM

    “Hicksville”.

    Lol.

    Get down here some time and head 1000 miles west, slowly disappearing into a cloud of red dust.

    There’s not much out there.

    There’s one town I’ve been to that only had two residents … and a pub.

    They’d love visits from zing, Roger and Al.

  • STM

    Then there’s the outback Queensland town of Betoota, which until a few years back only had one resident, a cranky old Polish bloke … and of course, a pub. Never been there, though.

    Apparently Mr Remienko, who on the balance of probabilities might no longer be alive, kept the liquor licence in case people dropped in but only ever answered the doorbell when he felt like it, which was almost never.

    A man can get mighty thirsty out there, too.

    Here’s a picture of the pub, the only building in town.

    Neighbouring Birdsville four hours away by dirt road and is literally out in the middle of nowhere, but it’s where he went to do his shopping.

    Lol. Gotta love this country.

  • STM

    You could easily whack up a mosque out there.

  • STM

    I was right … the old fella’s not around anymore, but they had a horse race meeting there a week or so ago.

    Which begs the question: Why bloody bother?

    The mosque at ground zero is only one of life’s many unfathomables.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I was right! Just look @ #141 – #145.

    :D lol, STM you crack me up!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    It has come down to *the principal* of not being able or being able to build the community center in lower Manhattan.

    I’m rooting for the Nation of Islam; they have the right to also live in America. They have the right to be.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Stan re: #141 — “The simple fact of the matter is this: 3000 people died at the hands of islamic nutcases on 9/11. I agree with Obama’s notion that because Americans should uphold the right of people to worship freely. But near THIS site?”

    I agree with the President too. He made a valid point. But, like you, I feel it’s not about freedom of worship. This is about respect for our sensitivities. 9/11 has affected the American psyche and consciousness in a way that will take at least half-a-century to completely heal.

    “The whole idea is just in really bad taste and the islamic community and whoever else is pushing this should be held accountable for their stupidity in even suggesting that a mosque, or ‘interfaith centre,’ go here.”

    Well said, Stan.

    “The proposal was totally inappropriate from the get go. And don’t tell me that no one involved in this plan understood this would cause a drama, either, and grate on the sensibilities of many Americans, because I don’t buy it.”

    Nor do I. I don’t believe they’re stupid. Not at all. They know what they’re doing.

    “I’m inclined to agree with their right to have a place of worship anywhere that is deemed legal by the local authorities, but it seems to me to have been a really out-there idea in the first place.”

    There needs to be a serious dialogue with respect to just why they are insisting on building the mosque in that exact location. They need to start that dialogue and they should be prepared to explain in full detail why it’s not insensitive and exactly what they hope to achieve by building it there. And they should be prepared to delay the conversion of the building to a mosque until such a thorough, exacting dialogue has been had.

    “You can’t legislate to stop people worshipping, and nor should you be able to do so.”

    Agreed.

    “Ultimately, I suspect there’s a certain bloody-mindedness in some sections of the community in their determination to have this go ahead, and I can understand why some people are mightily pissed off.”

    That’s exactly what this is. High-mindedness and no desire to communicate to the American public why it’s, in their minds, appropriate behavior.

    “Someone should just take someone else aside and explain quietly and sensibly why it’s completely inappropriate to have a mosque near ground zero and why it’s affecting the sensibilities of so many. If they still can’t see that, then the bloody-minded argument holds much water.”

    Again, well said.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark Edward Manning,

    Really?

    This is about respect for our sensitivities. 9/11 has affected the American psyche and consciousness in a way that will take at least half-a-century to completely heal.

    If this were true, then there wouldn’t be any strip clubs, adult toy stores, or bars near ground zero.

    Why don’t you just, come clean here, admit that this outrage is born out of intolerance and hatred?

    Also, this outrage is very politically advantages crap for the lot of you…

    JD

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Someone should just take someone else aside and explain quietly and sensibly why it’s completely inappropriate to have a mosque near ground zero and why it’s affecting thre sensibilities of so many.”

    And then someone should take you aside and explain there are already mosques near Ground Zero

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Jeannie: “Also, this outrage is very politically advantages crap for the lot of you…”

    I believe the word you’re looking for, Jeannie, is advantageous.

    As if that doesn’t apply to the Victory Mosque builders. Ho-hum.

  • Clavos

    If this were true, then there wouldn’t be any strip clubs, adult toy stores, or bars near ground zero.

    Sure there would. Those establishments fill a very real demand in the marketplace, in fact those kinds of businesses tend to be goldmines for their owners.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark #151 What, you’ve never made a mistake? Why aren’t you the President?

    Besides, there’s only one *Grammar Nazi* here, as far as I’m concerned

    So, if, Clavos, corrects me, that’s OK.

    :D LOL

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That’s a good point, EL, I’ll remember that when I blast, Clavos, for that silly comment he just made…

    :D No, I’m in too good of a mood to spoil it.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    JD, Mark made a mistake in the article when he claimed Bloomberg was a Republican, so you don’t have to look far

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I like, Bloomberg, and really wish he would run for Governor.

    :D I figured that commenter didn’t have a leg to stand on when he attacked my rightten! LOL

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Jeannie, you remind me of our office manager who writes like a German who was taught English by a Spaniard. If you don’t want to be corrected, fine. Persist in thinking your written English is perfect, if that’s truly what makes you happy, correct spelling and punctuation be damned.

    We “grammar Nazis” are trying to protect the language from the surfeit of idiots out there who think it’s perfectly ok to write things like, “y do you gotta hate?” or “I dun like dat bcuz it scare me.”

    Or, people who write “advantages” when they mean “advantageous,” two completely different words that are pronounced differently, but never mind … I’m not Clavos, so apparently I have no right to speak.

    But, El Bicho, you’re right. I did make a mistake. I was unaware that Bloomberg has been an Independent since 2007. So, yeah, I own up to that.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    MEM,

    If you can’t debate the issues with me, then I won’t waste any more time responding to these lame comments…

    Got dat?
    JD

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Besides…this isn’t the Queen’s English that we speak here…so I doubt that we all have to write it in-order to be understood.

    :D r u fraid ov Urbonics? You should see what cell phone txting is doing to your pure language. LOL

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Jeannie, can I just say, I don’t speak the “Queen’s English” myself. But I don’t think Americans should write like pre-schoolers when they’re grown adults. But having said that, I despair of the language here in the U.K. as well. It’s not much better.

    You don’t seem to understand that language is one very important aspect to holding a society together. There very well should be standards that have to be maintained. Besides, have you thought about foreigners trying to learn English, about how they’re going to struggle — and the contempt they’re rightly going to have for us — when the mangled garbage that passes for written English doesn’t measure up to the “purer” language they learned? It’s great that English is not as rigid as, say, French. But English has rules too, and it should not be as wildly fluid as your carefree attitude suggests it should.

    Just this particular grammar Nazi’s thoughts. I’ll shut up about it now.

  • STM

    EB: “And then someone should take you aside and explain there are already mosques near Ground Zero”.

    Yes, and there are people of the muslim faith who pray in the pentagon too, according to some reports I’ve seen from the US.

    But nothing takes away from the fact that it was ill-conceived (would you have to be a rocket-scientist to work out there might be a drama??) and a stupid idea in the first place.

    We have muslims on staff in our building; they pray inside the office at the allotted times of prayer in a special area given over for that. That’s their right, this company accommodates them because it values them, and no one cares about their faith.

    This is different.

    I just find it bizarre that a certain section of the community couldn’t find it within itself not to propose an idea for a building (it looks more like a monument to me) they doubtless knew would cause intense division and controversy.

    Perhaps that’s the real issue. The only issue.

  • STM

    Handy (and zing, paraphrased): “NYC … is certainly the center of the universe”.

    No, boys, exciting as it is, it’s the centre of American culture and the very Big Apple of one very big country, which might be why it feels like the centre of the universe to some (and I must say, I actually do love the place and have been there often).

    But London still feels like the centre of the known universe, the true hub (yes, the historical epicentre) of a 400-year-old worldwide cultural spread that has also embraced multiple cultures itself over those centuries … it might have seen its day, and might be a bit frayed at the edges, but it still feels as vibrant in its own way as New York.

    I certainly don’t feel the same sense of power walking down Park Ave or Wall St as I do walking down The Strand or through the City. I feel more of a sense of excitement in NYC than in London (although they’re close, depending on what you’re after), but not that genuine, deep-rooted feeling of old power.

    And not really caring one iota which one is most powerful, or which is better, I can safely tick the “objective” box on this one.

    As to where I’d rather live, it’s close … but out of the two, New York gets my nod for first choice, although having had the opportunity to be out of here for a while and in either of those two places, I inexplicably chose London.

    And like Handy, I wouldn’t mind Paris, either – if I could speak French. In fact, it might even be first choice in those circumstances.

    But then paradise in the metropolis on the edge of the South Pacific always beckons too …

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Stan: Believe it or not, I love Paris. There’s something about that city which has forever captured my imagination. I love it loads more than London. My French is rusty and probably sounds ghastly to them — but they do understand me.

    Paris gets at least something resembling an actual summer every year. Which is a lot more than can be said for this place.

    And I agree re: New York City. It’s all pomp and flash and it represents America the same way London represents Great Britain — sort of, but not quite. The higher cultural value of NYC is paper-edge thin. The Ramones were, in my humble opinion, the best thing to come from there, but they were always more than a bit esoteric.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Again,

    There isn’t any substance in you’re comments made to ME.

    Who are YOU to hold the keys to the literary world? Number one fact, MEM, this is just a comments thread on a web-site. I’ve been looking for your copyright here, but I can’t find it.

    JD- But, I’ll keep commenting and hopefully, I wont hit the wrong keys while typing… LOL

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OppS!!!! your not you’re!!! :D

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    It is the principal of the matter now. They must take a stand in the name of freedom of religion and in ending this insidious intolerance. After them, Who’s next? Was, Tedd Bundy, a Catholic? Mark Chapman, is HE a baptist. I used the example of one individual to remind us that, 9/11 still was just a small handful of nuts that got through airport security. The same security that made Senator Al Gore, presidential candidate and almost winner.(damn, Supreme Court!) take off HIS shoes!!! rocket scientists? no…

    Speaking of The Supreme Court, they should see term-limits.

    I don’t know if Your country is demonizing the Muslim religion in the same way that they are here. I’m so tired of hearing all these little snide quips from Leno on the Tonight Show, and the anti-Muslim crap I’m seeing on the web really makes my heart ache for the Muslims(all of them).

    But nothing takes away from the fact that it was ill-conceived (would you have to be a rocket-scientist to work out there might be a drama??) and a stupid idea in the first place.

    JD- G-Day STM

  • zingzing

    stm: “Handy (and zing, paraphrased): “NYC … is certainly the center of the universe”.”

    i never said any such thing. it’s a great city, and one of the greatest of the greats, but there’s just too much world out there to make that kind of statement. it’s even an odd representation of america. most big cities in america have a inferiority complex about nyc, that is true, but places like la, sf, chicago and dc offer different things. and then there’s lisbon. (oh, lisbon… one day.) nyc offers most everything i want (except a little peace and quiet now and again), and i’d rather live here than anywhere else i’ve been, but i haven’t been everywhere, and i’m sure that “what i want” is bound to change as time goes on. there will come a day when this place will represent everything i’m trying to avoid.

  • STM

    Yeah, zing, you’re right about Lisbon. I was going to mention uit but as usual, I’d waffled on for too long.

    I think if I could live anywhere but Sydney, it would probably be Lisbon first on the list, followed by the aforementioned places. It has the same hot dustry smell in summer and last time I was there, I got lost for a while because they have the same buses as we do (except they drive on the wrong side of the road and I nearly got skittled). I got out of the train in Queluz one day and walked to the cab rank at the shopping centre and with the heat and summer smell, it conspired to make me feel completely at home. Seriously, I just forget I was somewhere else. Sydney and Lisbon are also cities of coffee bars on every second corner, so that helps too.

    I love the paradoxical nature of the place .. old and new, which of course we don’t really have in Australia as the place only goes back to the late 1700s. But in Lisbon, even though they lost most of the city in an earthquake in the 1700s, they rebuilt in the same old-Portuguese style. For older architecture, Porto up north is the shot … much of it is 500-600, or more, years old.

    And if you wanted a feeling of power, Moscow in the early ’80s, with every second person in uniform walking around the city or on the subway. Amazing place. We know today that sense of power was illusory, but it was there at the time.

    Real power today IMO can best be felt in London, around Whitehall and The Mall heading down to the Strand and Fleet St, and especially in Washington, all the government buildings around Capitol Hill, extending to the CBD and the navy yard, but once you get out of that a lot of Washington and the tri-state area just feels like troubled suburban America to me. Let’s hope for all our sakes that sense of power in Washington is NOT illusory. Then there’s the Pentagon, not that far away … Scary stuff.

    And Mark, I’m with ya. Paris is pretty amazing. You can wake up there every morning and even the sense of deja vu, that “shit, here we go again” groundhog day feeling, is exciting. I like the French even though they can be annoying buggers, yet they do know how to eke the most out of every last drop of life. Good on ‘em for that.

    I actually prefer Lisbon, but unlike Paris, I suspect Lisbon might get a bit boring after a few years if you lived there as it’s relatively small compared to most of the major European capitals (only two million people, although it must be quite a bit more if you count the urban sprawl).

    Small, but perfectly formed …

    And I hate to say it because I AM one-eyed, but Sydney is still my fave. I can never wait to get back here. There are few big cities in the world built on such a beautiful natural setting and with such a perfect climate. It’s not all good, especially with property prices among the highest in the world, but it certainly has something even when an incompetent state government like the one we have now has turned it into a giant peak-hour parking lot and forces you stick your hand in your pocket every five minutes. Can you tell that me (and millions like me) are a bit pissed off with them at the moment?

    We’re all counting down the days to the next state election in March, 2011. They’ll be lucky to get back in power for a generation, the way they’re going.

    If ever there was a time to be somewhere else, this is it … until they’re gone-ski.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Stan, me and the missus are going to Lisbon in December. Any suggestions as to what we absolutely have to see/eat/drink?

  • STM

    Jeannie … yes, they are being demonised a bit by some columnists and talk-back radio hosts, but then we have laws here that stop people being TOO demonised. Freedom of expression is strong and vibrant but doesn’t extend to inciting hatred in this country, and I tend to agree with that. I like the idea that rights come with responsibilities. However, that works both ways … can only work if it works both ways. I also believe that if people come to this country, it’s up to them to accept our culture, not up to us to accept theirs without it being reciprocal. But yes, in my experience, most Muslims aren’t fanatics, they’re ordinary people just trying to get on with life and get the best out of it just like the rest of us. It’s a small core that is causing strife that’s the key issue in all this, which is why I don’t understand why in regard to the ground-zero mosque, no one thought about the sensitivities of others.

    Doc: Can I suggest a place to stay and at least one place to eat? Hotel Heritage Ave Liberdade, which is a tw0-minute walk to the Restauradores strip, and the restaurant there, opposite the subway entrance, called Pinochio’s. It’s touristy, but if you can get a spot outside (go at 8pm instead on 9pm like the locals), it’s great for people watching and the food is good. Lots of other restaurants nearby are worth exploring too.

    You have to go to the old palace at Queluz (you can get the train on the Sintra Line from Sete Rios station in Lisbon), and there’s a restaurant attached to the Queluz Posada that is a must. I don’t think you have to be a guest to go there. I’ll give you an email with some details. Then you HAVE to go to Sintra itself and head up to the palace on the hill. It’s amazing, really. There’s a bus from the station up to the top, but Sintra village is worth a look and a bit of lunch too.

    Finally, another great hotel in Lisbon, down near the water, with lots of good eating places nearby: As Janelas Verdes. I’ll drop you a line with everything in it, suggesting more stuff to do.

    Lucky man. And your missus will be stoked. Cheers Doc.

  • zingzing

    doc: “me and the missus are going to Lisbon in December. Any suggestions as to what we absolutely have to see/eat/drink?”

    SEAFOOD! lots of octopus and squid. good god do they know how to make it there.

    i was last there in 2000 or 2001, but i really liked this little town outside of lisbon named cascais. (it’s easy to get to from lisbon, no more than 20-30 minutes out of town, as i recall.) it’s very picturesque and loads of beaches and this little place called THE MOUTH OF HELL. pretty cool spot. lots of cats around too. cats everywhere. i love cats.

    the girl i went with way back when returned there not too many years ago and said it had gotten rather touristy, although she was there at the height of the season. so it might still be as fuggin awesome (and romantic–the hotel staff gave us a bottle of wine every night and said things like “young love” and all the faux-swooning) as i remember it. i had a porch that looked right out onto the ocean and the pastel colors of the buildings is something forever burned into my mind.

    when i think of where i want to spend my old age, it’s there. amazing spot.

  • STM

    Doc, I just spent half an hour putting a piece together which has been rejected for posting because of who BC thinks I am, It has a number of links in it on Lisbon. If you want to see them, you’ll have to attend to it manually as the editor, according to BC,

    Dang. What a waste of time.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    I hate when that happens to me.

    :D BTW, thanks for responding, nite…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Stan, thanks for the info. With my magical comments editor powers I was able to retrieve your post that got nixed. We’ve already booked a hotel (near the Gulbenkian Museum IIRC), but we’ll definitely look into your other suggestions.

    We’ll be in London for a week (catching up with friends and family), then spending four nights in Lisbon and three in Amsterdam. Looking forward to it.

  • zingzing

    doc, always ALWAYS begin continental trips in amsterdam. and carry lots of ziplock bags.

  • STM

    Lol. Trust zing. But ignore zing’s advice completely, unless you want to be spending an extended holiday in the Schengen countries.

    Dutch jails are probably OK, Portuguese maybe not so much – although the one in Lisbon just looks like the ones here.

    It’s what goes on in the inside, though, Doc … the Strasbourg report criticised the conditions inside Portuguese jails, and the level of violence and internal drug-trafficking among the prisoners.

    Also, in Lisbon, you will need to catch the bus into the downtown areas I’ve mentioned from where you are staying.

    Cheers mate.

    I’ll email though before you go.

  • UK and USA

    Let the fools build it…. someone will bomb it.

  • zingzing

    actually, stm, i found it exceedingly easy to transport certain things if one is traveling by train inside the eu. if you’re traveling by plane, it’s quite a different story, and i’ll admit that things might have changed in the last 7 years since i was there, but i had a high time from amsterdam to france to portugal to germany to the czech republic. (just to be safe, go with the more mild african varietals, as the skunk on them is less noticeable…)

%d bloggers like this: