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Follow the Line of Koch, Fundamentalists

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“We’ll make darn sure they spend it in a way that goes along with our intent. If they make a wrong turn and start doing things we don’t agree with we will withdraw funding.” &ndash David Koch

There is no denying that I detest the Koch Brothers and their dealings. They don’t even try to hide their motives anymore, but the people don’t even know who they are, much less what they do, or the power they have in being political billionaires. Koch money is easily handed out to bill signing aficionados. I am livid at the manipulations plastered on the Fox News Channel. I am disgusted at the weak-minded who buy into the rhetoric without digging for the truth. I am disgruntled that these two men are, double handedly, overthrowing our politics, politicians, and our freedoms and rights as Americans. What sends me totally over the top is they count on the Christian fundamentalists’ dependence on the false rules drummed up in the bible to help further their cause. While the people bow to their Jesus, David and Charles are laughing at the weakness and the ability to lead the meek, or ignorant, to the brink of the toxic cesspool, and like drinking the Jim Jones Kool-Aid, they happily snort the Koch, poisoning themselves and every American around them.

Let’s start with the devout Tea Party. The Party is mainly made up of Christian fundamentalists. They are a party born from the womb of Americans for Prosperity. The fundamentalists were so happy that a group was going to fund and back their moral beliefs; they didn’t check what Americans for Prosperity really stands for. Were they aware they were selling their ultra moral souls to the reverse side of redemption? They believed they, with the help of Americans for Prosperity, could change the world back to how their God wants it to be, per the words of the two thousand year old book. The Christians, believing they are standing for their God, swallowed the baited hook. The message was sent to vote Republican. Vote with God. Vote with morals. Vote to keep the nation from falling to Hell. As soon as the Tea Party politicians were placed in office, all part of a devised plan, the agenda changed. The Kochs’ had their majority in office to pass the laws that fit their corporate minds. All else was smoke.

The fundamentalists still can’t see the writing on the wall. They have yet to understand the meaning of divide and conquer. They buy into the anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control and anti-social program agendas. They believe the propagandized pronouncement of key terms: entitlement, handout, and something for nothing. As they worship their bleeding savior they have yet to ask themselves: “What would Jesus do?” They certainly don’t fit that bill, no matter how many praying hands show up at the polls. They tune into Fox and buy it as gospel. Even God said to search for the truth. Never once did he say to be narrowminded or to pass judgment.

Their religious leaders stand and speak of killing homosexuals. Maybe it’s just me, but can’t we all hear the whisper of Jesus Christ, as he hangs on the cross: “Come my children, crucify those who are different from you, pass judgment, single out those whom you disagree with, insult them, cast stones at the ugliness of their difference of beliefs, starve the hungry, neglect those who need medical attention, kill off the planet which my father, your almighty God, created for you, create unrest, begin wars of greed, feed the wealthy, ignore the cry of the homeless children, they aren’t entitled to anything. Don’t give handouts, people don’t deserve it. Always, my dear children, give breaks to the wealthy, give them the strength and clear the pathway for them to pollute the land and to torture your soul with their poisons. Eat the genetically modified food presented, that says what my father planted for you wasn’t good enough. Always, my children, I say unto you, do not tax the wealthy and do not let your nation take care of those in need. We are not of the faith of taking care of the sick or needy, we are to bow to the rich and allow them to destroy our nations, our lives, our freedoms, and pollute not only our lands, but our hearts and souls through manipulation, lies, and ignorance.”

Faith in my God, in my strong spiritual beliefs, shuns those believers. They do not even know the God they pretend to follow. The premise preached is diabolical. The Koch invention of the super PAC, Americans for Prosperity, speaks volumes: Americans for prosperity. I’m sure that is exactly where Jesus would have stood, with prosperity, in a room full of hungry, homeless, uneducated, uninsured, and unemployed people, he would have inhaled the Koch ideology and shed his blood for their wealth. Can I get an Amen?

I put the responsibility on David and Charles Koch and the fundamentalists who were so desperate they clung to the heels of the Koch-created Americans for Prosperity. The fundamentalists, without knowledge, gave the brothers superior control in our lawmaking. The laws aren’t to protect the theism of the fundamentalists; it is to clear a distinct path to allow the wealthy to control our laws, our freedoms, and our land. Yes, I am angry.

I don’t think this is a liberal issue. I think this should be an American concern. Let’s talk about the Koch bros: David Koch leads ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council) which pushes laws that further the corporate intention. These laws that are pushed are not about your anti abortion/anti gay beliefs. ALEC educates legislators and helps inform judges through Koch funding. Our judges and legislators take Koch lessons at ALEC. They are taught which laws they should support, which are never moral laws, to further corporate business and the free market. ALEC pushed for privatization of federal and state services and assets to blocking caps on unlimited credit card rates. Remember, the people who belong to ALEC are our bill makers, many Republican lawmakers, and judges. The companies that belong to the ALEC cult are, my favorite, ExxonMobil, along with: Walmart, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, AT&T, Bayer, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline, Johnson & Johnson, Kraft, Koch Industries, and UPS. Those big money names, especially ExxonMobil, sit at meetings and tell our Republican lawmakers what laws to push through. Now that is scary. I tip my hat to Coca-Cola, Walmart, and PepsiCo for recently leaving ALEC, but I know Koch Industries joined with Pfizer and Exxon because they still have too much big money power in our legislation.

Through Americans for Prosperity, Crossroads, and Restore Our Future, the Kochs are buying the minds of the fundamentalists and those too lazy to search for the truth themselves. They look for articles to fit their thought and push them through. Koch makes the rules and funds these super PACs. The team is taught to motivate and coach the voters. Their goal: To turn people away from environmental laws, social spending, taxing the rich, and division of wealth.

Koch agenda:

Repeal health reform
Deny climate change
Dismantle collective bargaining
Fight reducing carbon emissions
Fight to keep money in elections
Fight Internet neutrality.

The president took massive slams for not allowing the Keystone XL drilling adventure. The Canada-based company wanted to lay miles of pipeline with substandard steel and a lot of danger of spillage. The press and, of course, Fox, were all over it. They disrespected the president with many untrue accusations. The president was accused of not wanting to secure our own oil and keep dependence on foreign oil. It didn’t have anything to do with our dependence on foreign oil. It was nothing more than another route to line the Koch pockets.

When the House asked who was to make money from Keystone, guess who popped up? Koch. The Republicans  in their pockets denied claims that the brothers would make money from the oil sands, but it isn’t true. Koch owns Flint Hills Resources and had told Canadian officials they stood to make a lot of money from the Keystone XL adventure, but they wouldn’t disclose it to our government. Online, the Koch brothers made videos claiming no connection, but when asked, almost ordered, to come and talk to Congress, they refused. It’s no wonder our president was being slammed by denying the Koch’s big money adventure. Billionaires have a way of buying their clearance, through lobbyists, legislators, media, and propaganda to the public, this time it seems to have failed. Too many issues were against drilling. The spillage was of great concern, but it also wasn’t oil that could or would lessen our dependence on foreign oil, nor would it lower our gas prices. Its sulfur content is far too high. I’m sure the Kochs are still pouting over this, but then again, they are just going to spend over the top to buy the candidate who will secure their fininancial endeavors, no matter what the costs to our land or our people. It’s a free market.

We wonder where all the privatization talk began. I wonder how people can support it. I don’t understand why or how people can support privatization of something we once cherished, like education. People don’t understand, with the privatization of education comes the ability for the owner to share and teach their personal view, be it American, Communist, racist, Fascist, or not. Like any private school, the morals taught are not limited to American standards. David Koch tried to pursue privatization in 1980, but the notion left Ronald Reagan shaking his head. Ron didn’t share the Koch fear of Communism, as the Kochs were bred with, nor did he believe in giving the private sector so much power in our lives. As the Koch Brothers grew, so did their dream of open markets, and the out of control earnings for free enterprise.

NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) was passed with the help of billionaire David Koch and his Citizens for a Sound Economy as well as other corporations and their allies. Wasn’t that the beginning of the fall of our manufacturing industry in the United States? Who, but the very rich, would benefit from free trade? This begins the birth of our global economy.
The Koch brothers are also behind the rise of Scott Walker, the governor of Wisconsin. It is obvious that Walker is a Koch puppet. David Koch said: “We’re helping him (Walker), as we should. We’ve gotten pretty good at this over the years.” Koch is the largest union-busting supporter. He spent $17 million to support the cause. What I don’t understand is how easily the people voted to back the demise of collective bargaining rights. I know, the Kochs funded, through their super PAC, Americans for Prosperity and their personal contributions, the propaganda against the unions. What’s worse; people believed it. They fell to their knees and began to sound like the high end business.

The Kochs have learned to be proud of themselves and they laugh at how easily the people follow a few keywords. They chuckle at the working man’s desperation. The unions supported the worker. The unions kept benefits just and the pay scale fair. The unions demanded decent working conditions. All that will just be a memory to companies that could care less about their workers. They want to create a lot of $7.00 an hour jobs in a $20.00 an hour economy. They want to end child labor laws, benefits, limit insurance, and get rid of environmental control. The people follow. I would laugh at all of you; too, if I were a high end business owner, but I can’t laugh, I pity the ignorance.

Restore Our Future is also Koch Industries owned. Bill Koch recently gave $2 million to support them. They advocate lower corporate taxes, less government spending on social programs, and reduced environmental regulations. The premise, most believe, is if big business has more cash flow they will create jobs. The income of Koch Industries has skyrocketed while their employee numbers have plummeted. The division of wealth in this country has fallen almost to a level seen only in third world countries. The theory does not work. Taxes continue to be lowered and jobs are not created.

If the government spends less on social programs it brings the people to their knees to low paying positions that require them to work two or three jobs to support themselves and their families. They become slaves to the elite class.

If we get rid of environmental protection there will be a field day for the Koch brothers to dump chemicals illegally, as they have been doing all along. The only difference is, they won’t have to pay the fines for doing so. Koch is a huge contributor to dumping illegally. They illegally dump chemicals. They are guilty of formaldehyde steam rising from their plants. They are high level polluters. Of course, they want to end environmental protection; it gets in the way of their gross capital. I know, the people who live around Koch Industries who are diagnosed with cancer at a rate of over 90 percent, don’t matter. It only seems to matter to us tree huggers. What’s the problem with contaminating our land, our earth, our air, and how dare us question, care, or regulate? It’s the price the poverty stricken sheeple have to pay so the rich can get richer, I suppose.

The Koch brothers are thieves, as well. They literally robbed oil from Indian reservations, as if it were their own land. They pumped and stole enough to back them into litigation. It was fairly hush hush, it was only against the Indians, right? Kochs had to pay $25 million in retribution to their victims. Is that a big enough price to pay? I think jail time would have been far more appropriate. If I stole $25 million worth of goods, I would spend eternity in prison.

The Republicans, in the 2013 defense budget, block the military from developing or even testing biofuels. They claim it’s too costly, but then they passed a resolution to promote conversion of expensive and dirty coal to liquid coal. This was backed by the Senate Armed Forces Committee. Coal, along with its cancer causing agents, is acceptable. Back to the Kochs and their clean coal society. No big deal; after all, the Kochs are making big bucks. It seems with every Republican bill pushed, there is a Koch behind it. It’s quite scary when you see the Republican agenda leads to benefit Koch.

The Koch brothers have set up think tanks: 1st Free Market Think Tank, The Mercatus Center, and George Mason University. They have bought news media. They are now focused on overthrowing all democracy, at least democracy as we know it. The brothers know the only way to force their agenda is with a Republican president. They are throwing their money, and tons of it, to ensure Obama loses. This isn’t because they believe he is a communist, as they try to make you believe, this is so they will have an open door to control everything, making free market a free ride.

The super PACs American Crossroads and its nonprofit affiliate, Crossroads GPS, plan to spend $300 million. The super PAC Restore Our Future has already given Mitt Romney a lot of money, but their target is $150 million. Adding Americans for Prosperity to the list, the aim is $850 million, and that is just the contributions through the super PAC’s. That doesn’t include the money funded for all the high level voter suppression, as in the bills the Michigan governor is trying to pass to suppress democratic votes. That doesn’t count the voter suppression in Florida, either. These Koch-following Republicans are actually, and outwardly, trying to depress votes, legally. Let’s not forget, Koch sent out a letter to all employees telling them who to vote for. Will non-compliance cost an employee their job? Only time will tell. When in American history was it ever imagined that the leaders of a state would try to curtail the vote of the public? When did this behavior become acceptable? Why are we allowing it?

The Koch brothers are well on their way to being the highest bidder for our highest and most respected political position, the presidency. Yes, they are buying it. The Supreme Court appointing the last Republican president was bad enough. The Koch brothers are thieving, chemical dumping, union busting, governor owning, integrity lacking, brothers who have brainwashed the public into blindness. They are stealing our democracy.

Now, back to the Tea Party, did you see a word written about the good that Americans for Prosperity has done to further your fundamental goals? I would have written about them, if there were some, but they simply aren’t there. I cannot find a link that would make one believe that Americans for Prosperity cares about abortion rights, gay rights, religious rights, or any of the other rights you are constantly using God against. They do care about racism, just as the elder Koch father did, through his beliefs linked to the John Birch Society, but there was nothing that would further your holy agenda. You have been duped, ironically, by your own judgment. I can’t feel sorry for you, but I do feel sorry for the condition you and your judgments have put our entire nation in.

Before you bash me, and I know you will, do research on the Koch brothers agenda yourself. Then hang your head in shame. You’ll see, you were just a pawn, and you were manipulated by the brothers, who laugh at your fundamental beliefs. You gave them the power to make us all choke on the power of the elite.

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About Pam Messingham

  • Clav

    Jeez, if they’re that bad for the nation, Obama should send out a Seal team to capture and remove them, as he did with OBL.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    From 1958 to 2009, the John Birch Society was considered too extreme to be allowed to actively participate in Republican party affairs – but in 2010 they were a co-sponsor of CPAC. The GOP has gotten more extreme than it ever was – ever! Clavos, you KNOW in your gut that Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Bush 41 would all stand ZERO chance in today’s GOP – they’d be run out of town based on their socialist policies!

    How long are you going to keep your head in the sand?

  • They are economic, legistrative, and environmental terrorists.

  • Clav

    They are economic, legistrative, and environmental terrorists.

    So treat them like terrorists. Send the Seals after them and get rid of them.

  • I don’t have a problem with that…but they are super billionaires, Clavos, seems everyone is in their pocket.

  • Clav


    You say:

    you KNOW in your gut that Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Bush 41 would all stand ZERO chance in today’s GOP…

    To which I reply: the only one in that list I’d give a chance to is Reagan — I guess that means that if I were a Republican, I’d stand with their mainstream.

    My head’s not in the sand, Glenn, you just see it that way, because in your heart you know YOU are correct, and I’m grievously wrong.

    Miami is full of beggars at intersections, especially in the winter, when the snowbird beggars come down to escape the cold. Normally, I ignore them while stopped for a traffic light, but yesterday, I saw a man to whom I gave a donation. Why? He was different: he was clean, he didn’t need a shave or a haircut, he walked proudly, and his clothes, while definitely not new, were clean and pressed. His sign said simply, “Lost my job. I have two children to feed.” He was believable, and his appearance seemed to indicate he wouldn’t spend any money donated on booze or drugs, so I gave him several dollars.

    Obviously, I don’t see the world your way.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    About the guy on the street, I would probably have done the same, for the same reason. It wouldn’t be the first time or the last for either of us.

    But would you agree with me that the GOP is more to the right than ever before? I think I can back that statement up, but I’d like to hear your take on it.

  • Igor The Magificent!

    Good article, Pam!

    Give’em hell!

    One can understand the avarice of the rich and powerful, but what is hard to abide is the self-destructiveness of the peasant republicans.

    Hey you suckers! The Koch’s won’t even give you a scrap as they pass you by. They’ll take everything you’ve got and then spit on you for being so stupid as to believe them and surrender voluntarily.

    Oh well, you’ll be stylishly anti-liberal as you perish. Thinking that you are some kind of conservative. Good for you!

  • Glenn, in 2012 their conference was put on by the Koch’s…along with speaker Rick Santorom, A.L.E.C, Americans for Prosperty, and Charles Koch institute…all in one…they head it all…seek and you will see their name behind the entire radical right movement.

  • Oh and Igor: Thanks!

  • Arch Conservative

    “The Koch’s won’t even give you a scrap as they pass you by.”

    Igor the Depedendent pretty much sums up the liberal, leftist mindset. Waiting around for someone else to give you what you need rather then venturing out into the world to take from it what you need or want.

    Oh and this article is so novel. Koch Brothers? Really? That’s the best you could muster up Pam?

    Let’s see what you moonbats have to say after this Tuesday when Scott Walker beats Tom Barrett like a union owned rented mule. Maybe after a union membership drops a few more point across the board in this nation a couple of the public union hot shots that have been extorting their private workforce counterparts for so long will finally see the writing on the wall and put a gun in their mouths. Baby steps to making this world a better place.

    Cue the inane leftist rhetoric about unions representing “working people” and the “middle class” despite the fact that not even one out of ten in the private work sector is a union member.

  • You know, Arch, that is the mindset that has gotten this hate war, splitting American’s, going. I am so sick and tired of people attaching the Koch keyword banter, handouts, to liberals. It used to be tree huggers, how pathetic. If you can open your eyes you will see that your own party is RAPING you of your rights so THEY can take FROM you. No handout involved, utterly TAKE. The Koch bros, the best I can come up with? Like I said, research them first before you bash, because you will see everything the Republican party is doing and everything they have bashed the current president over, leads back to Koch. The Florida voter suppression, Koch, Scott Walker, Koch, Privatization, Koch. Illegal horrendous chemical dumping…Koch…of course they want you to believe just as you do….and I’m sure you make them proud. This isn’t inane leftis rhetoric…do the research before you open your mouth.

  • Arch Conservative

    Pam, anyone with an ounce of sense can see that BOTH major parties have been complicit in the downfall of this once great nation. Please don’t mistake my loathing of the contemporary leftist ideology as some sort of tacit, wholesale endorsement of the GOP. I have as much use for George Bush and John Mccain as I do for Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi, which is to say none.

    When one gets past the obvious, that both parties are basically in it for themselves, what we are left with is a population with varying degrees of different socioeconomic worldviews. In the broadest, most generalized terms your point of view comes from the left. You believe in the maximization of big government and the minimization of personal accountability, responsibility and merit while I on the right believe in the maximization of personal accountability, responsibility and merit and the minimization of big government.

    Are there corrupt and ammoral actors in our capitalist system? Of course. But other than bitching about them what have you personally done yesterday to better your own life Pam? What will you do today? What will you do tomorrow?

  • First of all, don’t tell me what I believe in because you have no idea. I believe in TOTAL accountability, transparency. That is the purpose of the entire piece. The entire GOP is Koch laden. Everywhere you turn it goes back to the billionaires and their agenda. That is my point and my purpose. If just one person will open their eyes and see what is happening with the Koch’s/exxonmobile and such, then maybe, just maybe we can take back our lives.

    I agree, it isn’t just the right, but the right are huge contributors. They buy into the entire “no handout” primise, like it’s our social programs that have gotten us here. They think that the GOP is the vote for God, and you know it. I, also, agree that both sides aren’t much different. That was quite proven with Obama signing the NDAA law. I was never a Barack supporter, so don’t try to say I’m just defending my “hand out” President under liberalism, it simply isn’t so.

    I do have to say that the lies being pumped out of the GOP are horrendous and you don’t see that from the “other side.” The truth is, I was writing a piece for a city in Michigan that is undergoing the immeninant placement of a Financial Manager. I ran across another Michigan city, under an EFM that is selling their education system to the lowest bidder. In doing research for that peice, no matter where I went, I was led back to the Koch brothers. It made me want to puke, quite frankly, to know that our entire voting system and political system is being bought by the Kochs and their supporters.

    I blame Clinton for NAFTA, but I was suprised that the Koch’s were behind that too. When you understand the power of A.L.E.C and the American’s for Prosperity and so so many other Koch Interprise control arms, you see the trail, you see the reason and the destruction in whole.
    It’s scary. It makes me sick. It isn’t about one corrupt player in the game, that would be easily removed, it is about the billionaires USING the people with smoke screens, to get their way.

    The Koch’s found a ton of power in the Christian fundimentalists that believe they are voting for God, a tactic W used, probably fed by Koch as well. I doubt those men have ever prayed a day in their life.

    These people are old money…they are the entitled, not the working man. You talk about Scott Walker? The guy is a criminal. There are taped conversations where a mock David Koch called Walker. He thought he was talking to David himself. He sold the people out and laughed about it. Leftist bullshit? or truth? Truth painted as leftist bullshit so the people won’t believe it.

    To be a true American today you can’t believe Fox News, first off, it’s owned, along with many other stations. I write for local papers and my editors talk about how controlled we are in media. I tried to find the germany march video that I had watched the night before where the police joined the protesters. As soon as the videos were put up, they were removed.

    Don’t think for a second that anything I write is to support a party, it isn’t. I think we need a new party, the Constitutionalist Party, or The Labor Party.

    The lobbyists are out of control and they are funded by…you know it, the Koch’s. When you look at the millions they have spent in fines for polluting our land with chemical dumps, without ever thinking of finding a different resource, then you see all the bills against preserving the environment, the truth exposes itself once again, then research those bills, who pushed for them, go to ALEC and again…exxon/koch do it over and over again.

    As for what I do to better my own life? I wrote this peice to better my own life, to better my childrens lives, to better every single American’s life, if just a few will open their eyes and see what “they” are doing to us. We can close our eyes and blame the liberals, or Obama, which is what the conservatives like to do, with Lies, I may add, or your can research it yourself, find the truth, and then, and only then, you can question why I am bitching. I’m not bitching, I am simply telling people the truth,…and American’s today…they can’t tell the difference…they are too lazy or one sided to research anything. Then, they whine when things go bad.

    I guess you don’t get it…I’m trying to better all of our lives, even the people that are too blind to see…even yours.

  • Arch Conservative

    Blah, blah blah, Same shit different day.

    I assume that you’re familiar with the Theory of Evolution and you may be surprised that I, a mere knuckle drugging tool of the Koch Brothers would even bring it up.

    However the theory of evolution holds that those who survive and flourish are those that can make the necessary adaptations within themselves to adjust to their ever changing environment.

    So unless you have either a really big gun, a really big wallet or a once in a generation ability to communicate with and motivate the masses (I suspect you have none of these)you maybe better off examining how the Theory of Evolution may be practically applied to your life. Life is too short to do what you’re doing now. I know this. It’s why I’ve been posting so infrequently.

    But I drop by to check in and am treated to:

    “you KNOW in your gut that Eisenhower, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Bush 41 would all stand ZERO chance in today’s GOP”

    As if FDR, Truman, Kennedy, LBJ or Carter would be accepted by today’s Dem party.

    But then Glenn always has been the posterboy for what I’m speaking of.

  • It’s like this, first of all, why do you have to insult Glenn? There is not reason, and I bet you’re wrong on the Kennedy, Truman and FDR thing. Carter, well, that’s a different story, he was too good of a man to be a politican. Don’t blah blam my comments, it isn’t the same shit, different day…it’s just the ears that are listening to it. They can’t hear. You are right though, if you don’t have a BIG gun, or a shit ton of money…you are going to be left, like the rest of us, a slave to the super powers. Heaven forbid, don’t try to change or fight for our rights, lets just hand it over to them…that thought process makes me sick. Evolution isn’t about natural selection, don’t confuse the two. What you are talking about is natural selection. My kind will phase out, I will not get on my knees to anyone! I can’t and won’t cry Uncle to slavery in America.

    That’s what it’s coming to, in the name of the Almighty God.

  • And furthermore, how UnAmerican of you…to exquate our FREEDOMS with natural selection. What a shame that you lack the honor to try to protect our rights, to fight for them, to be what is American, not what it is to be on your knees. Wow, you’re just a follower, I assume?

  • Arch Conservative

    “Heaven forbid, don’t try to change or fight for our rights, lets just hand it over to them…that thought process makes me sick.”

    I’m just as aware as you how unfair and ammoral the world can be. I guess the difference between you and I is that I don’t believe there’s much we can do to change it on a global scale. Money and power, throughout the whole of human existence on this planet has pretty much been where it’s at when it comes to influencing the human existence for the masses.

    Unlike you though I try not to obsess on it to much (and for all I know you may only obsess upon it when on this website). Life is short and you have to make your own happiness where and when you can. Maybe there will come another day when there is a second bloody revolution in this nation, maybe it may even be global and sitting on the sidelines will not be a feasible option for any of us. But that day is not yet here and as a father of two I consider my efforts best directed into adapting to how the world presently works rather than fighting the good fight day in and out to correct the injustices. Selfish? Maybe but like I said, life is short. So I think I’ll just try to show those I come into contact with in my daily life the respect I’d like to be treated with and consider myself a halfway decent person. I’ll leave the heavy lifting Martydom for better men than myself.

    Oh and as for Glenn. He’s earned the insults by his steadfast refusal to even attempt to be objective.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Hah! ARCH is griping about ME not being objective! Apparently he doesn’t have a mirror in his house!

    Arch, FYI we progressives would LOVE to have an FDR or Truman around for both were very progressive for their times and weren’t afraid to stand up for what is right – particularly Truman, who:

    (1) ensured equality for blacks in the military (which ticked off the conservatives),

    (2) got our economy back on track after the post-war recession (by raising taxes),

    (3) passed the GI Bill that allowed so many of our veterans to go to college, and

    (4) stopped MacArthur from from starting a nuclear war (and was vilified by the Republicans for firing MacArthur after doing so).

    I’d be somewhat hesitant for JFK based on Vietnam, but he may very well have been tricked on what really happened with the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and he certainly was misled by his advisers when it came to the Bay of Pigs…but he truly showed his character in the Cuban missile blockade where he forced Khrushchev to blink, and he was all for the Civil Rights movement.

    So you’re completely off base when you think we wouldn’t accept them. We Progressives have stuck by our principles since Teddy Roosevelt went trust-busting…and Obama is NOT a true progressive, as I pointed out in my most recent article that shows he’s the most CONSERVATIVE president since Eisenhower!

    But it’s glaringly obvious that not a single GOP president from Eisenhower to Bush 41 would be given a passing glance from today’s GOP based on their economic policies alone. And based on economic policies, the only two that would are Hoover and Bush 43…and if you have the least knowledge of history, you’d recognize that they have something in common – ECONOMIC DISASTER.

    When it comes to what Pam is trying to tell you, do you really think it’s right to allow people to put as much money as they want into an election? Do you really? Because the Koch brothers have stated they will spend as much as 400M to ensure Obama’s defeated. Thanks to YOUR boys in the Supreme Court, our democracy – which was questionable before – is now very much an oligarchy. The rich have more power now than ever before…and by opposing those who would have stopped this from happening, you and every other Democrat-hating conservative helped to ensure that. Way to go, Arch! How far we have fallen since Teddy Roosevelt went trust-busting and the courts were saying that money is NOT free speech!

    And for Pam – don’t worry about Arch insulting people – he’s just a pot that thinks everyone else are kettles that are just as black as he is.

  • That’s what I mean Glenn. The Koch’s don’t even try to hide the fact that they are buying the election. I was just thinking about all the soldiers that died in the name of freedom. It sickens me. Through the years, son’s, daughter’s, mother’s, father’s, brother’s, sister’s, neice’s, nephew’s, grandparents, friends, aunt’s, uncle’s, and friends have been lost by American’s that have sacrificed their lives for our freedoms. Now, the real terrorists, the real threat to our American freedom, lies in the hand of our own. American Greed. They want to destroy all, including the land, in the name of power and free enterprise. I’m sure those soldiers would be happy to hear someone say…it’s natural selection…how many years could they have had with their loved ones if they thought that way.

    Hey Glenn, Vietnam began in the fifties, long before Kennedy. I guess people don’t realize that we became involved in that by another US broken promise to Ho Chi Minh to help defend them against French control…that was in the forties. Are you using the escalation of troops in Vietnam under Kennedy? Just asking

  • Clav

    The first significant (battalion size units and above) escalation by america was in August of 1965, under LBJ. I know, because my battalion of combat engineers and the First Infantry Division, the Big Red One, went over together; the first units to go over — on a TROOPSHIP, NO LESS — 28 days from Oakland to Cam Ranh Bay, where we bivouacked in sand dunes.

  • Bill

    Pam, I just googled tea party movement images. Of the page after page of images of people carrying posters , I don’t see any in reference to god or abortion, or fundamentalist ideas. Maybe I missed it, but iI don’t think it is as prevalent as you make it out to be. Show me some of the images that would indicate what you’re saying. Oops there’s one that says, “In God We Trust, Not Government” Is that fundamentalist?
    I’m not necessarily a tea party person, but of what I get from them is that they :
    1) Don’t like the war
    2) Don’t like big government
    3) Don’t like taxes
    4) Don’t like socialism
    5) Don’t like politicians giving themselves such a great deal
    6) Don’t like bailouts
    7) Love the constitution
    8) Like being able to carry a gun
    9) Love liberty
    As far as pouring money into something. Who is that who funds the climate change movement. Who funds planned parenthood?
    As far as I can see, not too many people make a living at tea partying.
    By the way, I don’t care what you do to your body, nor do I think it should be governed. Also I realize that CO2 has increased at Mauna Loa 75 parts per 1,000,000 since the 50’s and I’m a little concerned, but not overly.

  • None of us like war, none of us like big government, none of us like taxes, and I’m so sick of hearing this socialism crap I want to puke, none of us like that either. All politicians give themselves too much, bailouts (ie: gifts to corporate America that result in $16.5 billion with stock bought by W in AIG fall into this catagory, don’t they…much different than a $38 billion dollar loan + interest that has been paid in full) in and to big government as for Bush are totally unexceptable, The constitution if loved so much, shouldn’t be trashed and abolished by using religion, abortion, and gay rights against Americans, I love my gun, too, I love my freedom too, and we should fund planned parenthood, its much less costly than the oil subsidies at $24 billion a year. The Tea Party members do not carry signs that say “I am a Christian Fundamentalist” but “In God we trust” tells the story in whole…thanks for making your own point….~Pam

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Bill –

    Look at all the first-world nations, and except for the oil-rich nations of the Middle East, all the first-world nations have something in common: every single one of them are socialized democracies. Every single one of them fits the description of what the Tea Party calls a “nanny state”.

    Why is that, Bill? Why is it that ALL first-world nations (other than OPEC nations) have significant social safety nets? Why is it that not a single first-world nation has what the Tea Party would call a “small government”? There’s lots of nations that DO have small governments…and they’re all third world nations.

    Why is that, Bill?

  • We are the ONLY first world nation without healthcare. We look like a third world country to so many people anymore. We have became backwards and ignorant in our own bliss. We have dummied down education…sold out our jobs…we are a mess…

  • Bill

    It was the only sign I found that even mentions god. I don’t even believe in god, but I have to say that I can tolerate a person who does believe in god, easier than someone who reveres government.
    Bush stomped on the constitution, and with that knowledge I can see myselfe carrying a sign mentioning my belief in the constitution.
    Gay rights and abortion are, I think, liberties, but I don’t see any signs about those specific topics.
    Is it possible that the Tea Party members kind of know who their constituents are. That it’s a mixture of people that come from different walks of life, some believe in god , some are gay, some are out of work, anybody.
    I think they have 1 thing in common, they’re pissed at government and one way or another feel that American liberties are at stake. Anyway, that’s how I feel.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Bill –

    Please address what I pointed out about the fact that (other than oil-rich OPEC nations) ALL first-world nations are – by Tea Party definition – nanny states, while there are no examples of a nation with a small government having become a first-world nation.

    Why is that?

  • Dan

    “ALL first-world nations are – by Tea Party definition – nanny states, while there are no examples of a nation with a small government having become a first-world nation.”—Glenn

    Haitians will be happy to know that all they have to do is adopt nanny state social policies, and then they will become a “first world Nation”. So easy.

    Wealth creation is directly influenced by economic freedom. Small government contributes to that freedom with non-confiscatory tax policy. Nanny states are only possible because of the wealth created by economic freedoms.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    Apparently your experience in third-world nations is fairly limited – what you see on the boob tube is no substitute for experience. I’ve got a house in one, and that’s where my youngest son is attending college. There are hundreds of thousands of Americans with more experience in the third world than I (such as Clavos and Dan(Miller) and STM), but I still have much more experience in this than the vast majority of Americans.

    For instance, Dan, you mentioned Haiti, taking as an example of one of the worst-off nations in the world. Problem is, you don’t even know what kind of issues face the people in such countries:

    First, where there is little regulation, there is a great deal of corruption, and corruption is endemic in all third-world nations. Having a great deal of regulation doesn’t guarantee a low level of corruption, but having a very low level of regulation guarantees a high level of corruption.

    Second, most third-world nations have never invested in the infrastructure necessary to ensure that everyone who is supposed to pay taxes, does pay taxes, whether it’s the individual or a small business…and as a result, the government is forced to collect taxes and duties and tariffs as best they can from large businesses and ports of entry.

    Third, since the minimum wage is either very low or nonexistent, corporations pay as little as they can get away with. My sister-in-law works as a supervisory secretary at the Supreme Court in the Philippines. Her salary? About thirty bucks a week. When salaries are so low, Dan, people get desperate to put food on the table, which means they’ll do almost anything to get money to feed the kids…and this is another cause of corruption.

    See, Dan? The normal American has no clue as to what’s going on in third-world nations. Their problem isn’t that “they’re not American” or “they’re not free”, because in many instances, the people in such nations have a degree of freedom that we here in America do NOT have. Read that again – there are third-world nations that are FREER than America…but you’ve got to live in such places to grasp the reality of the concept, because that’s when you begin to realize that having little or no regulation of business and personal responsibilities results not in personal freedom, but in personal hardship, whether in terms of wage-slavery, environmental deterioration, mandatory bribery of government and corporate officials, and so forth.

    But not having lived in such places, it’s very difficult for an American to understand that there really is such a thing as too much freedom. It all boils down to the old caveat that “nature abhors a vacuum”…and when government is not there to keep businesses in line, then businesses engage in wage-slavery and do whatever they want with the environment and they are accountable to no one. And the final result is always, ALWAYS a nation of the rich and the poor and very little middle-class in between.

    Now, Dan, assuming that you think that since what I’ve said is anathema to conservative dogma, care to answer why are there ZERO first-world nations with the conservative idea of “small government”? Care to answer that?

  • Bill

    Gosh Glenn, what I was pointing to Pam was that I don’t see evidence of the religious fundamentalism in the tea party, that she spoke of.
    This is what I can admit to you. Everything is Bush’s fault, and there’s some community in Texas where teachers work 2 jobs.
    You happy now?
    This is what I can tell you. There’s a bunch of people that are so good at making money, that’s all they think about.
    Please tell me how much they’re allowed to have.
    Can we take enough from the rich so that everyone can live as well as the government, and labor unions insist?
    Can we take enough from the rich to pay our debts?
    What is fair Glenn? You say.

  • Dan

    Scott Walker has just been confirmed in Wisconsin. Landslide.

    This is very good news. The tea party has sent a message again. Hopefully the momentum will continue throughout the Country as more and more people see the fiscal success Walker has delivered.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    You didn’t answer my question, Bill. Why is it that ALL non-OPEC first-world nations are by Tea Party definition “nanny states”, whereas ALL nations that have limited government are third-world nations?

    Why is that? I asked first. If you can’t answer, don’t feel bad – none of the other conservatives on BC have answered that, either.

    And FYI, you said “some communities in Texas where teachers work 2 jobs” – dude, it’s 41% of ALL teachers in Texas. Two out of five of all teachers in Texas don’t stay to grade tests or homework or develop lesson plans or counsel students or involve themselves with after-school student activities – they’re too busy getting to the second job so they can have food on the table. But hey – that’s austerity for you!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And it looks like Wisconsin will get to experience the same “benefits” of austerity, thanks to Citizens United.

  • Dan

    Yes! thank God for Citizens United for helping to restore the traditional value of limited government that is responsible for the greatest wealth creation in world history.

  • Scott Walker has just been confirmed in Wisconsin. Landslide.

    Landslide? Hardly. 52-48, according to CNN.

  • Bill

    Not sure. I’ll just guess Glenn. Is it because all tea party fundamentalists are stupid? Okay, now you answer my questions.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Bill –

    No, I”m not going to let you off that easy. There’s a reason why – think deeply about it. Do you really suppose that it’s simply an accident that all non-OPEC first-world nations are “nanny states”? And is it an accident that all nations with the conservative idea of “limited government” are third-world nations?

    The pattern’s obviously there – why is it a pattern?

  • Dan

    “Landslide? Hardly. 52-48, according to CNN.”—Dreadful

    That is one of those reliably slanted exit polls from CNN. I was refering to actual vote counts. It’s running about 57-42 with two thirds accounted for.

    A mandate for sure.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    Same for you as I just posted in #37 – can you answer why?

  • Dan

    Glenn, it is your type of authoritarian ideology that is entrenched in the third world. Not tea party conservatism.

    You simply seem to not understand that private sector success is responsible for any type of social safety net period.

    Wisconsonians get it though. At least enough of them still do. It probably helps that Walker has turned a 3.6 b defecit into a slight surpluss, and that everyone still has their jobs. Unemployment down too.

    I think the recall effort was doomed soon after voters were visually treated to the despicable tantrums thrown by protesters last November.

  • How come they’re only despicable tantrums when you don’t agree with them, Dan?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    I notice you didn’t even try to address my question, which was:

    Do you really suppose that it’s simply an accident that all non-OPEC first-world nations are “nanny states”? And is it an accident that all nations with the conservative idea of “limited government” are third-world nations?

    The pattern’s obviously there – why is it a pattern?

    C’mon, Dan – I’m just asking you to explain why the pattern’s there. All the non-OPEC first-world are nanny states, while all nations with the kind of limited government you seem to want…are third-world nations.

    Why, Dan? It’s just a simple question, right?

  • @Glenn, I think it’s getting time to board that plane and relocate.
    @40 Dan, you raise your glass to Citizens United? You believe the Private Sector is the way to go? Since Obama took office there are less corporate taxes paid. As the “private sector” has had a gross increase in net profits since Obama took office, why haven’t they created any jobs? Obama is not an employer, yet he is being held responsible for the unemployment rate. My question to you is this: If giving corporate America all of these breaks is where the Conservatives think they will find job growth…why is their no job growth? They keep getting richer and there is no “trickle down?” All the Walker thing did was prove was 34 million bought a lot of kool aid. They literally brainwashed many people. When the spending is $34 million – $4 million…doesn’t it make you realize that our politicans are bought and maintained by the private sector you cherish? The private sector, though they have benefitted from all the Bush tax cuts are NOT providing jobs. I am ashamed to be an American. The world sees what is going on and they just watched, once again, America’s greed in action. I listened to Fox News for just a few minutes last night and I watched commercials that literally said Obama was the reason for the $16 trillion dollar deficit. I know it’s a lie, but those easily led by television commercials, don’t. They eat it up and believe it. Glenn is right, Obama has been the most conservative president in a long time…I think it’s so funny that the Right says he’s a socialist/communist…when in reality, the left sees his conservativism.
    Don’t you dare comment and degrade the movement that tried to make things right. At least they are trying to bring back a bit of honor and integrity into America. They are fighting for our rights.

    Citizen’s United seriously has to go…if it doesn’t then we will continue to have leaders that are bought by the highest bidders…democracy in America is a hoax.

  • Clav

    we will continue to have leaders that are bought by the highest bidders…

    True. In his 2008 campaign for the presidency, Barack Hussein Obama raised more money than any other candidate in our entire history — much of it from George Soros and Soros owned enterprises. And let us not forget that another of America’s richest, Warren Buffett, is also a strong Obama supporter.

    And, as we all now know, all that money worked — it elected our country’s first total amateur, a man who never held a real job in his life — an Amateur — to the top position of a country that once counted for something, even as recently as when he took office.

    Oh, and Glenn. Is it just coincidence that almost all of those “First World” countries with those marvelous health plans you incessantly bore us with are, like the usa, sinking into a financial mire from which there is little hope of extraction?

  • Clav, I will not deny that Sero backed Obama. Big money has played a role too large. It has trampled on freedom. I watched what the democratic party did to Hilary to make sure their seros boy won the nomination. I am strongly against electoral votes, we have the capacity now to count every vote, as we should, and that is all that should matter. Of course, the powers that be will never let that happen because it wouldn’t be so easy to line pockets with their well wishes. I was pissed at the 2000 elections…at the 2004 elections and at the Democratic Party in 2008. Hilary would have won that primary and she would have been the party nominee, but they took it away from her. Money needs to stay out of politics…just like God.

  • Igor

    @28-Dan: odd you would claim this, since clearly all the great advances in US culture and business were sponsored by vigorous government action.

    All the glamorous high-tech businesses, google, facebook, etc., owe their successes to the willingness of US taxpayers to fund the reasearch and development efforts at their foundation.

    All thriving business in the USA owes it’s infrastructures to government willingness to invest in highways, ports, airports, universities, research centers, medical centers, etc. And almost always those most productive enterprises were opposed and attacked by anti-government factions in society. Fortunately, our better instincts prevailed in those days, but now it looks like crooks just want to liquidate our assets and steal the proceeds.

    Jun 05, 2012 at 5:36 pm

    “ALL first-world nations are – by Tea Party definition – nanny states, while there are no examples of a nation with a small government having become a first-world nation.”—Glenn

    Haitians will be happy to know that all they have to do is adopt nanny state social policies, and then they will become a “first world Nation”. So easy.

    Wealth creation is directly influenced by economic freedom. Small government contributes to that freedom with non-confiscatory tax policy. Nanny states are only possible because of the wealth created by economic freedoms.

  • C’mon, Dan – I’m just asking you to explain why the pattern’s there.

    Dan’s point, I think, is that third-world nations tend to have smaller governments and little to no public welfare not because they’ve made the conscious choice not to have them, but because they can’t afford them. And that it is the prosperity brought about by free-market capitalism which permits first-world nations the luxury of comprehensive government services including social safety nets.

    Curious, then, that he seems to think that the United States, having been supremely excellent at getting itself into that position, for some reason shouldn’t take advantage of it.

  • Bill

    Glenn? Glenn? You still there?
    I will accommodate you. If we don’t compensate our public servants adequately, we’re prone to corruption and lousy public services.
    My questions to you ,earlier, were ultimately about the distribution of money, fairness, and unions.
    Let’s forget those questions. Another direction:
    Correct me if I’m wrong. Progressives, ultimately are of 2 mindsets.:
    First mindset is of a society without greed. That the people work towards the betterment of life for all. Those that are rewarded the most, in turn reward society. The rewarded may live a bit better, but understand the needs of the masses.
    The second mindset is of a similar society where greed is evident. In this case government must take from the greedy to ensure the society of its comforts.
    The first won’t happen, and because I think the government is too individually selfserving, and mucks everything up, I don’t like the second.
    I would though, be more inclined to jump on the bandwagon if two things changed. First and foremost, the public sector cannot be unionized. They should be paid decently, but must be open, and understanding, to fluctuations. Second, same with politicians.
    At that point in time, I will see more of a level playing field, and would be eager to sit down and relate with you. You see Glenn, the private sector is currently standing in left field all by itself, and we’re cold.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Oh, and Glenn. Is it just coincidence that almost all of those “First World” countries with those marvelous health plans you incessantly bore us with are, like the usa, sinking into a financial mire from which there is little hope of extraction?

    Some of the first-world nations are in financial trouble, yes – but you’re being simplistic about it. The ones in trouble are in the small minority and – with the exception of England – are hidebound to the Euro and thereby forcing their misery on the rest of the EEC whose economies are otherwise doing quite well. For those in the EEC, it’s because they’re tied together by a common currency. When it comes to England, they tried austerity – and where has it gotten them? Nowhere, of course.

    And frankly, Clavos, given the choice and if family’s not an issue, would you really rather live in a much-less-regulated third-world nation? Or in a first-world nation even if they’re in a recession?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Bill –

    I will accommodate you. If we don’t compensate our public servants adequately, we’re prone to corruption and lousy public services.

    That’s only a small part of the answer. The larger picture is that in every first-world nation, the government is Big Business’ single biggest customer, and this is often not the case in nations with smaller, weaker governments (third-world nations). It’s wealth redistribution just like the conservatives say, but this wealth redistribution not only keeps people gainfully employed by the government, but all the money goes back to Big Business anyway. See comment #1 in this article for a much better description how a robust business sector requires a robust public sector.

    Read that again, Bill – a robust business sector requires a robust government sector, even with all the taxes such entails. Read the comment, please.

    Progressives don’t have a problem with the profit motive – in industries where the profit motive belong. But government is NOT about making a profit – government is about governing the people, for the people, by the people. Corporations are not people – have you ever seen a corporation jailed or be sent to military service? Of course not.

    There is NOTHING wrong with public sector unions, Bill – nothing. For instance, do you really think that public sector employees will get paid what they’re worth if they’re not unionized? Sometimes, but usually not. How can I make this claim? Wal-Mart makes money hand over fist – but are their workers unionized? If you don’t think unions are important, read this list of 36 things that you can thank unions for. I don’t think the list is right on all its claims, but it’s right for the great majority of them.

  • Clav

    government is about governing the people, for the people, by the people.

    Well, it’s supposed to be, at least. But it’s been a looonngg time since that’s been true in the USA; here it’s more like “government of the bureaucrats/politicians, by the bureaucrats/politicians and for the bureaucrats/politicians.”

  • Clav

    For instance, do you really think that public sector employees will get paid what they’re worth if they’re not unionized?

    One would hope that in the absence of the unions, their wages would be pulled back to what they’re really worth, yes, but who knows?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    “government of the bureaucrats/politicians, by the bureaucrats/politicians and for the bureaucrats/politicians.”

    You left out “corporations”

    One would hope that in the absence of the unions, their wages would be pulled back to what they’re really worth, yes, but who knows?

    And the 41% of teachers in Texas who have to have second jobs just to make ends meet and put food on the table, every one of these has at least a bachelor’s degree and many (perhaps most) have master’s degrees. So is this your idea of “paying them what they’re really worth”?