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Fighting the Ghost of My Own Racism

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Until I'd been in the Navy about five years, I was a racist.

I wasn't one of those fire-breathing backwoods wannabe-lynch-mob leaders.  No, I'd learned my first lesson in racism's folly back in the fifth grade for calling a black kid the n-word and received a hard punch in the gut that put me down for a few minutes.  The principal told me it was my fault, that I deserved it — and it took a few years to understand he was right.

As the years went by I still kept some racist beliefs — I knew every n-joke in the book, it seemed — even though one of my girlfriends in high school was black.  It was understood that it had to be kept  a big secret, especially from my family.  Such would have been scandalous, ruinous to their social standing in rural Sunflower County in the heart of the Mississippi Delta (to this day I haven't told my mother, and I do hope she's not reading this blog).  The pressure got to be too much and I broke up with her and broke her heart, and I've always held myself responsible for the pain I caused her.  It didn't help that a few years back I found out that she'd subsequently had five kids from five different men.  I blame myself for that, too.

But I joined the Navy and as the years went by, every word of encouragement from senior enlisted who happened to be African- or Asian-American, and every laugh shared with my shipmates who were of different races, became another brick removed from the wall that had been built between myself and the real world.  I began to feel ashamed of where I came from, of the Southern culture that had raised me to think that we whites were the best, most morally upright, most honorable this world had to offer.

I do visit my family in the Delta every year or two, and with few exceptions, I see the same racism in the white faces and in the voices of friends and neighbors there that I'd seen and heard before in my youth.  Just as it is much easier for someone from, say, Mexico to read the faces and hear the nuances in the voices of others from the same province of Mexico, such nuances of Delta white folk can't be hidden from me — I know it too well.  Of course I do see some racism even here in western Washington (for where there are humans, there is at least some racism)…but not nearly to the extent I see it down South.  The two don't even bear comparison.

It's been well over twenty years and scores of hard-learned lessons about race since then, and now I spend time each week, sometimes each day here on Blogcritics – and my comments often concern race.  There are those here in the Politics section who think the days of racism are over, that even the traditional racism endemic in the Deep South are no longer serious enough for consideration.  But they're wrong.  The election of Barack Obama not only brought the nutcases out of the woodwork, but it let the racists know that they are not alone. I knew there would be a hue and cry among the racists…but the level of hateful (and even violently threatening) rhetoric has reached points not seen since the sixties.  Even the Secret Service has pointed out that death threats against President Obama have reached historic levels, 400% of what Bush received (even though Obama's nearly twice as popular as Bush).  Are we to believe that racists among the Far Right are not largely responsible for that four-fold increase?

So what does this have to do with me personally?  I see the racism — it's diminished from before, but it's still there, sadly stronger than I'd expected.  It's there for anyone with eyes to see.  Is that because I see a reflection of my own dormant racism?  If I didn't keep my own racism in such strong check, I'm sure that would be the case.  But I think that keeping my own racism under such tight control helps me to see what might not be otherwise clearly seen in the faces, the voices, the actions of my fellow whites.

'My own racism'?  Yes, that's what I said.  There's a part of me that is still racist.  It's small,usually quiescent,not a factor in my everyday life…but it's there nonetheless.  I felt it recently when my wife and I discussed (again) our hoped-for move to the Philippines.  The racist part of me said, "My youngest son is the only living blood-related descendant of the family of my birth.  He and I will turn our backs on nearly 150 years of our family's tradition in the Mississippi Delta and become expatriates.  My youngest son will almost certainly marry a full-blood Filipina, and again with his children…and the 'whiteness' of my family will be gone, forgotten.  My descendants will have brown skin, slightly slanted eyes, and a language completely different from so many generations of my family that have gone before." But I remind myself that this is the path that I have chosen, and I will not have – will not allow myself to have – regrets. To paraphrase a quote from Heinlein, "When the ship weighs anchor, all bills are paid. No regrets."  Yes, of course there are doubts — but there comes a time to deny the doubts, even those strengthened by nearly two centuries of family tradition.  I have to believe, to force myself to believe that such racist thoughts and traditions are wrong.

To the BC political conservatives, I would admonish each of you to closely examine yourselves.  All of you claim to not be racist, and I am certainly in no position to judge or to believe otherwise…but I also don't think it's wrong to postulate that the tendency to racism exists in all of us at least to some small extent.  The difference between those of us who are racist or not, then, must lie in each individual's determination whether to accept it and allow it to wrongly color our thinking…or to dominate and deny that part of ourselves embedded to our collective psyche by untold thousands of years of racism practiced, encouraged, and even deemed essential to survival by our ancestors.  It is certainly trite to claim that as I am turning my back on my family's tradition, I am also turning my back on what has been part and parcel of human history since time immemorial…but now is the first time in human history that racism (and sexism) has been deemed wrong and evil by a significant portion (but not yet a majority!) of the rank and file of the human race.

The irony is that even now, in one of the most liberal regions of the United States of America, the nation that welcomes the tired, the poor, the wretched refuse of the other nations of the world, it takes an act of strong will for this proudly left-wing liberal to overcome his own racist past.   But overcome it I will, for I am still young and strong, and in the same reference as above, Heinlein said it best:  "To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods."  Anyone who would learn to kick sacred cows would do well to sit at his literary feet for a year or two.

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About Glenn Contrarian

White. Male. Raised in the deepest of the Deep South. Retired Navy. Strong Christian. Proud Liberal. Thus, Contrarian!
  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    As they say, there’s no one so fanatical as a convert.

    I’d suggest, based on this article, that your eagerness to see racism everywhere, especially in the political right, comes from a hypersensitivity caused by your personal background far more than from any real evidence of racism among those you criticize.

    You suggest that we look at ourselves. My background is almost the opposite of yours. I grew up overseas and in one of the blackest cities in America and in the northeast in a family which is overwhelmingly liberal. Racism was just not an element of my upbringing at all. For various reasons I ended up moving to Texas, and coming here as an outsider I can see very clearly how much less real racism there is here than I would have expected, and in fact far less racism than I encountered among the working class in the northeast.

    The truth is that in many parts of the south the races are far more integrated than they are in the more “liberal” parts of the country and operate on a more equal footing. Where there are fewer powerful unions (which often practice racism as institutional policy) and there is not a long history of urban gettoization, there is far more integration and real equality between the races, and that tends to be characcteristic of the south.

    Sure, I’ve run into people who use racist language and tell the occasional racially questionable joke. But those same people are more likely to treat a minority member as an equal than people I grew up with who were part of the northeastern liberal elite, and ultimately it’s actions which matter.

    So perhaps my differences with Glenn come from having the exact opposite experiences and perspectives.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Perhaps. In all honesty, when I was growing up in the Delta, most whites (including myself) thought exactly as you do now – that the South is in many ways more integrated than elsewhere, especially in the north, and that there was certainly more racism in the north than in the South. There was certainly more violence in the big cities…but was that a product of race relations, or the natural result of inner-city poverty?

    But when I walk down the streets of Seattle and see black/white couples, I know that such is seen as almost perfectly normal here. In all my visits back down South, I have yet to see a black/white couple in the Delta (despite the fact that the population ratio between the two races there is closer to 50/50 than any other region of the country I can think of).

    Given your impression that is the same of many whites in the South (and the same that mine used to be), how do you reconcile that with the dearth of biracial couples in the Delta when the demographic makeup should allow for a much greater level of biracial marriages there?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Glenn,

    I am deeply moved by your article. When people can talk from the heart that way, I think there’s hope for us.

    It’s an article that risks vulnerability. Your taking that risk inspires me that I may take such risks. I hope I am as brave as you.

    xxxooo

  • Clavos

    But when I walk down the streets of Seattle…

    Seattle is hardly representative of northern cities; it is more akin to austin, which is southern.

  • zingzing

    “it is more akin to austin, which is southern.”

    maybe politically. but not demographically. seattle is a rather strange city demographically… going south, it’s sorta like portland, but very different from northern california cities; going east, it’s very different from the cities around it as well.

    i don’t think glenn’s comment was really about “northern cities.” it was more about “not southern.” (and austin is a bit of an anachronism in texas and in the south.)

  • Clavos

    My point exactly, zing. Both are anachronistic in the context of their geographic locations.

    In fact, they and a handful of others are atypical of the USA, which is by and large much more a nation of bumpkins (like Mississippi and Iowa, for example) than those two places.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Now I did say my comparison was between the northEAST and the south, not the northWESt. Different kettle of fish. And I have zero experience of life in Mississippi as it is one of the few southern states I have not spent any time in. Things may be radically different there than, for example, in Louisiana where mixed-race couples are commonplace. And different from here in Texas where I have a cousin whose wife is african american and no one makes a big deal about it. But then my family is actually in history textbooks in association with one of the most famous cases of miscegenation in US history, so it’s a little late to complain.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    well, seattle does look a shitload like vancouver, bc. and austin has more in common with northern cities than it does other larger cities in texas. what they all have in common is the liberal leanings of the communities. which is what glenn was talking about, methinks.

    i guess that’s the only thing that seattle is representative of in the context. i had a chinese/taiwanese girlfriend when i lived in seattle, and the only place i got any stares was from the chinese… and only that from her mother. (her taiwanese father didn’t give a hoot, while the mother’s mother hated the idea of her daughter marrying a taiwanese man, so i guess it’s a little ingrained. i was also screwing her daughter, so that’s really enough, isn’t it?)

    not that screwing yellow is anything like screwing black in white america. of course, when i lived in england, i had a black girlfriend, and no one gave a shit about that either, because it was england. then again, she was from nigeria and her english was rather messed up, so it didn’t last. it’s only when i started dating a redhead from indiana that i got into any fights over there. bastards.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Bias against Gingers must be stopped!

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos

    In fact, they and a handful of others are atypical of the USA, which is by and large much more a nation of bumpkins (like Mississippi and Iowa, for example) than those two places.

    Until a couple decades ago, you’d be absolutely right. However, according to the PBS about 80% of Americans now live in cities or suburbs.

    As I’ve said in other articles, America’s demographics are changing…and just as surely as a glacier advances in colder weather, we will shift further to the left as our population becomes more city-bound, better-educated, and better-interconnected with each other…for that’s what the statistics show as a significant overall trend.

  • zingzing

    “Bias against Gingers must be stopped!”

    she actually dyed her hair blonde when i met her. it took me a few days to figure out that she was actually a redhead. (i found out the fun way.)

    we broke up after a few months before getting back together again for a few more months, but during that first break up, someone thought i cockblocked him (ahh, college,) and we got into a fist fight in a rose garden in the courtyard which the porters had to break up (ahh, england). i had a bruised rib and a bloody nose, but the other guy had a punctured cheek and a broken collarbone. i kinda think it was the sympathy i got from her that brought us back together (for a short time, until she went back to indiana…). ahh, young love. well, lust anyway.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    I found a very useful link concerning mixed-race marriages (MRM’s). It clearly shows that the southwest has the highest percentage of MRM’s (but of the southwest states, Texas has the lowest percentage of MRM’s).

    It also shows that the region with the lowest percentage of MRM’s is the South…with Mississippi being the lowest at 2.0%

    Now compare that with the fact that Mississippi has the highest percentage of blacks of any state…and that begs the question as to why the state with the highest percentage of blacks would have the lowest level of MRM’s?

    But perhaps a better understanding would be to see this chart showing American counties by which ethnic group is the most prominent in each county.

    All through the South (except for Texas, and except for Florida (which isn’t a Southern state)), the percentage of African Americans is high…but the percentage of mixed-race marriages is low. Such is not the case with other states outside of the South, so I think you must agree that it can’t be blamed on one race not wanting to marry another race…but it can certainly be blamed on the regional culture.

    But what about MI, IN, OH, WV, and PA, you ask? They’ve all got large black populations, but a low percentage of MRM’s.
    I don’t have a good answer for you…yet. I could argue that these are all traditionally red states with the exception of MI…but I’m not sure that’s the right answer.

    But the Southern lack of MRM’s is an entire region, comprising an entire regional culture…and the worst disparity is in Mississippi, and helps to prove what I’ve been saying about the Delta being ground zero for racism in America.

  • Doug Hunter

    “we will shift further to the left as our population becomes more city-bound, better-educated, and better-interconnected with each other.”

    Should read.

    We will shift further to the left as our population becomes more dependent on government handouts, America accelerates it’s slide from greatness into a bankrupt debtor nation on the scrapheap of history, and our brand of class and race hate propaganda takes hold.

    Seriously, the only thing you contribute to this site is veiled,(or not) ad hominem attacks. Every article, every comment is how anyone who disagrees with you is racist, uneducated, etc. I don’t buy this little internal reflection gambit. This article was just about getting digs in and throwing the R-word around against the Delta, the south, the country, conservatives and anything else you dislike.

    The fact that you fooled some into thinking otherwise is testament to your cleverness in namecalling, but I’m not buying.

    Believe it or not, there are ways to make your points without resorting to personal insults. I know you’re a smart guy, you should try it sometime.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Very moving article, Glenn. A couple of observation, and do take it with a grain of salt because I wasn’t born and raised here; or perhaps as an insight.

    Reading your article, it occurs to me that the kind of racism you’re talking about, and even now accusing yourself of as somehow always lurking behind, every ready to rear its head, is essentially cultural in basis. I wouldn’t know much about that, because I’ve been uprooted from my home country and have seen many peoples and lands and customs before finally landing in America, but it definitely strikes me as having essentially cultural, local community roots.

    I’ve been living in KY for the past year, quite a change of pace from the sunny and multicultural California. And I’ve recently had an opportunity to get acquainted with some locals, young kids as a matter of fact, as part of the CDL/truck driver class we’re all taking. And no question about it, the kind of “racism” you’re talking about is part and parcel of every conversation – almost like the good ole boys talk. But you know what? It’s more part of culture than anything else – just talking shit, especially with the young.

    I’ve never had any problem with Southerners. Perhaps because of my accent, they never take me for a Yankee, there’s an element of curiosity that’s always there, so in this respect, perhaps I’m not qualified to judge. But I tell you what, there may be something about what Dave had said that a new generation is about. Especially when it comes to the young.

    They’re not mean at all. Actually, they’re more friendly and helpful than most Northerners or Westerners. And so I figure, most of it is just talk – because the talk is acceptable and what makes part of being in the company of men. The only thing these guys are missing is exposure.

    I bet you. Have them in California for six months or so and their apparent prejudices and biases will melt. They just haven’t had the opportunity to see the world, to connect with people who are different from them. But everything I see about them, convinces me there’s nothing they’d love to do better.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Thanks for the constructive criticism – and as usual, you’re right. Your observation “Have them in California for six months or so and their apparent prejudices and biases will melt. They just haven’t had the opportunity to see the world, to connect with people who are different from them.” is mostly true…but I’ve seen many a good ol’ boy that remained quite racist even after having been out of the South for several years.

    But for the majority, you are spot-on that what they’re missing is exposure…for that’s certainly what cured me.

  • zingzing

    jesus, doug.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Glenn and in response to Roger’s observation “Have them in California for six months or so and their apparent prejudices and biases will melt…”

    Does this mean that there is less racism in California?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    Do we really need to go down this road again? Generally speaking, the more urbanized a state’s population is, the more likely it is to be a blue state. The more rural a state’s population is, the more likely it is to be a red state.

    Got that?

    So AGAIN, to remind you of the statistical differences between blue states and red states:

    * the percentage of the population with health insurance was higher in blue states

    * life expectancy is generally higher in blue states. The very blue District of Columbia was in 51st place…but nos. 37 through 50 were ALL red states.

    * Blue states have healthier overall living conditions, according to the United Health Foundation, who figured the rankings according to a combination of factors including the rate of high school graduation, the violent crime rate, the percentage of children in poverty, the per capita public health funding, ready access to primary care, the disparity of mortality rates within the state, the premature death rate, the obesity rate, the preventable hospitalization rate, and rate of infectious disease. Once more, the top of the list is almost completely blue, and the bottom of the list is almost completely red.

    * Blue states generally have a higher level of education

    * And blue states generally median household income

    * crime (in fact, I post a link showing a strong correlation between higher median household income and lower crime…which of course gives the nod to the blue states)

    * the top five states topping the list of homicide rates were all southern anti-gun-control red states

    * if you look at the national rate of violent crime and the national murder rate, the ONLY region that was above the median national rate was the South.

    * the divorce rate is generally higher in red states

    YES, the big cities have the highest crime rate…but the suburban areas around them have a much lower crime rate. So low, in fact, that when the states’ crime rates are compiled, those states with the greatest percentage of rural population had higher homicide rates than states with greater percentages of urban populations.

    THESE ARE ALL PROVABLE FACT, Doug. If you want to discuss matters by using provable fact, then I’m happy to do so. But if all you’re going to do is to accuse me of duplicity no matter how reliable my statistics may be, then discussions with you serve no purpose.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I haven’t said that, zing. All I’m saying that the Southerners don’t have the monopoly. Each person is unique, but what the Southerners lack is exposure.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Christine –

    In a word, yes.

    Check the charts available in reply #13 – they’re enlightening.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Glenn:
    Will do…
    Since that is the case, you can see why I am one of those who thinks there is less racism. I have only observed racism from the prism of California, since I have lived here since I was three. Not to mention I don’t get out much! LOL I mean out of the state.

    “To the BC political conservatives, I would admonish each of you to closely examine yourselves. All of you claim to not be racist..”

    Racism has no boundaries and can be found in both parties. And in all races.

    Lastly, I realize we should all examine ourselves in this area, but how do you prove a negative? It seems to me that no matter what (even if you have a resume to prove it) the racism bashing continues. Not good.

  • zingzing

    roger: “I haven’t said that, zing.”

    said what?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    About no racism in California. But I know you were addressing Glenn.

  • zingzing

    don’t think i said anything about california or racism.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Robger, I was using your comment.

    “Have them in California for six months or so and their apparent prejudices and biases will melt…”

    Was trying to figure out what that meant…

    But I did not use the word “no” racism…LESS, as compared to most other states.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, zing. Mistook Christine’s comment for yours. Apologies.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s what I meant, Christine, more or less. Exposure will cure many people.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps I should say the Bay Area, Christine.

  • Clavos

    Until a couple decades ago, you’d be absolutely right. However, according to the PBS about 80% of Americans now live in cities or suburbs.

    True, Glenn, and the reason why I didn’t call them “rural,” or “country bumpkins,” because in states like Iowa and Mississippi, Montana, Wyoming, the Dakotas, etc. even in the cities many of the people are bumpkins (i.e. unsophisticated, unpolished, with little formal education, etc.)

  • Doug Hunter

    “Do we really need to go down this road again?”

    You’re welcome to make your goofy lists and confuse correlation with causation all day long. I can show that by county, rural counties vote republican and urban ones vote democrat.

    -Urban areas have lower life expectancy than rural ones

    -Urban areas have higher violent and property crimes and higher homicide rates than rural ones

    -Urban areas have higher dropout rates and poverty rates. (when adjusted for cost of living)

    -Urban areas pay higher taxes and have less freedom and suffer more regulation

    Why do you think the suburbs exist? Because sensible people understand the value of living outside the nasty urban areas where you get all your political support. They move as far away as they can and still commute (several hours if need be)

    Now, as to your choice of using statistics by state instead of county and coming to your list there are a variety of plausible explanations.

    1) The red southern states lost a war which left them far behind out of the economic gates

    2) Southern red states are ethnically diverse which comes with all the challenges you are well versed in. Alot of the same things you claim against non-liberals also applies to minorities (low income, poverty, etc) and they vote largely with you

    3)Southern red states enjoy much higher rates of immigration from south of the border, they don’t bring high net worth and income with thme you know.

    4) Southern red states are poorer. Maybe that drives them to embrace policies that allow them to catch up, have higher employment, and close the gap with the blue states. Many red states grow faster when times are good and don’t get hit as hard when times are bad. You can’t redistribute nothing, you have to create wealth first. They’re adopting pro business policies that do just that and are attracting more people and more businesses than blue states.

    On a final note, you can say all the things and call us all the names you want but actions speak louder than words.

    Internal Migration statistics:

    13 of 15 most popular destinations are red states

    10 of 15 states with the most desperate to escape populations are blue ones

  • Doug Hunter

    Oh, I forgot point 5 above. With lower cost of living, southern red states can have higher national poverty estimates and lower incomes and still actually live at a simliar standard of living. (with the added bonus of less taxes, less regulation, and more personal and economic freedom)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, I believe you’ve discovered one of the great basic truths of the universe. Mississippi sucks.

    As for the low level of MRMs in the northeast, I think that’s a rural vs. urban dynamic.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    LOL! What I always, always tell my friends and family is, “Mississippi – it’s a great place to be away from”.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    But Dave – my point still applies even with MS because it has the highest percentage of blacks but the lowest percentage of MRM’s. I can think of no other reason than racism.

    I hate to keep saying it, but there appears to be no other plausible explanation.

  • Clavos

    Further to Doug’s #30:

    Southern states also got a much later start on population growth and the attendant industrial growth because of climate. Until the use of air conditioning became widespread, most Southern states were small town backwaters. Some, of course, still are.

    I moved to Atlanta from Miami in 1971. It was growing rapidly at the time, but was still a very hick place, with little sophistication. By the time I moved back to Florida in 1989, Atlanta had nearly quadrupled in size, had become the New York of the South in terms of culture, arts, and overall sophistication, and was still booming.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    I think your misconceptions can be summed up in this one phrase – “Southern red states are poorer. Maybe that drives them to embrace policies that allow them to catch up, have higher employment, and close the gap with the blue states.”

    I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but they’ve been trying to close the gap for about 144 years.

    While life is not ‘better’ in the big cities, the fact is that those big cities are there and they provide the jobs and the education and the social services for the surrounding suburbs. Rural areas do not have this advantage.

    That’s why life IS better by nearly every measure in states where much of the population live in suburbs supported by big cities. This is also known as supporting a middle class.

    You’ll notice I’m not claiming red-state/blue-state in the above statements…but the demographics are clear – the more urbanized (or suburbanized) a state’s population, the more likely that state is to be a blue state.

    It’s simple demographics, Doug.

    So while you’re at it, why don’t you address the same question I gave Dave – why is it that MS has the largest percentage of blacks…but has the lowest percentage of interracial marriages?

  • http://mizbviewsfromthetower.blogspot.com Jeanne Browne

    Glenn — As a biracial person, I especially appreciate your article: its spirit, content, courage, honesty and moral concern.

    I’m working on post(s) about race, too, and one of my key points (also based on experience) is that not all racism is equal (all puns intended). There is hateful, often violent, racism based on delusions of superiority; then there is relatively benign racial fear based on lack of experience with/exposure to the unknown.

    Finally, there is racism like yours: an element of your cultural DNA, a hold-over from your youth and your environment that you’re aware of, disapprove of, and are working consciously to dilute in your thoughts/attitudes.

    Pres. Obama’s election is proof that racial progress has been made, but not that racism is a thing of the past. On the contrary, it is proving to be a catalyst for energizing the crazies, as well as many who, like you, are beginning to recognize, question and reject their own history of racism/racist upbringing.

    Please don’t reproach yourself. What you’re doing is growing, changing — very difficult things to do and that’s to be applauded, no matter if it’s 100% successful or not.

    And the fact that you’re willing to own up to it in public and write about it is more than commendable, it’s remarkable — and beautiful. Thank you for sharing some very important truths and insights. You’ve restored at least part of my despair about human nature. Bravo!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Very good post, Jeannie.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Christine,

    Since that is the case, you can see why I am one of those who thinks there is less racism. I have only observed racism from the prism of California, since I have lived here since I was three.

    Gotta love a flexible thinker. Can’t remember when someone here suggested maybe they didn’t have all the info they need instead of reacting in defense.

    Lastly, I realize we should all examine ourselves in this area, but how do you prove a negative? It seems to me that no matter what (even if you have a resume to prove it) the racism bashing continues. Not good.

    Good advice and I agree with you, the arguing doesn’t help. A serious suggestion (since you asked a serious question, I think): talk to the targets of racism rather than talking to white people about the targets of racism.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Cindy, nice hear you again. Your last suggestion is a good one, however, my only contacts are not white. In fact I am “olive” myself who’s grandmother’s name is Delgado. Throughout my life, many of my relationships have been different races and lately my teenager daughter’s friends that she has over the house are all races too…black, latino and her best friend is Chinese. And I have talked to this generation about it. It is quite enlightening!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeanne –

    Thank you very much for the kind encouragement. I admit I was a bit nervous – but then caution is certainly advisable when one is considering even a partial public baring of one’s soul.

    In a way, successfully overcoming racism is like having a successful marriage – such success describes not the destination, but the never-ending journey towards that destination. It takes work, constant work, and while one breathes that work will never be done.

    But the truly beautiful thing is that we can have this conversation and not be castigated or persecuted for doing so – and this is just another indication of how America has changed in the past four decades.

    In my high school there was a biracial girl – black/white – and she was certainly the prettiest girl in the school. She was accepted among the blacks, but not among the whites. But that was a generation ago, and even in MS the attitudes are changing – slowly, even glacially…but they are irresistibly changing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Hi, Christine,

    I think Jeannie Browne’s comment (#37) is spot on. There’re all kinds of prejudices (and racism is but one of them), as many as there are people. Some it’s due to ignorance and lack of exposure, in other cases it’s in the person’s heart.

    One’s socio-economic situation can also be a factor. It’s comforting to know that there are people who are “below you” on the economic scale, and in such cases the prejudice is not directed against individual persons but against a group.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger: what does this mean?

    One’s socio-economic situation can also be a factor. It’s comforting to know that there are people who are “below you” on the economic scale….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    One of the many reasons I wanted to leave the United States was racism – the racism of blacks who hate whites (or Jews) and my own dislike of these blacks. A lot of the black hatred is cultural, but a lot of it is well and truly earned.

    But my interest was to get away from it.

    Here in Israel we have blacks – the vast majority of whom are Ethipian Jews who have either fled Christian persecution or who are the children of those who fled this persecution. They are a whole different ballgame from American blacks. They do not have 500 years or more of slavery to resent, they come here seeking freedom from Christian persecution from black Christians. So they do not carry within them a culture of hatred of whites in them – yet. While there are plenty of white Jews who dislike them – racism is alive and well in Israel, unfortunately – I am not one of those racists. My own racism, if you will, was a response to the hatred of many blacks in the States, hatred I do not sense from Ethiopian Jews.

    Indeed, I find that in Judea and Samaria, there is very little racism – while you find plenty of it in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. The richer the Jews in Israel, the more racist they seem.

  • zingzing

    woah

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If you’re dirt poor, Christine, it’s comforting to know that there are people worse off than you – like “the niggers.” It makes it easier to live with your own miserable situation, knowing that others are “more stupid” than you. It’s the one-upmanship principle, and it operates at all levels of society. If you haven’t developed a sense of self-worth, you are going to try to derive it by comparing yourself to some others.

    Human nature.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Not so sure about that human nature assessment. I rather see it as a problem of social conditioning in a society that competes, and where ‘being better’ than someone else is valued. And where there is also money to be made through selling self-confidence and self-esteem to people.

    But anyway, a story about talking to people, as opposed to only thinking about them:

    I was talking to my friend this weekend about an inner city school where uniforms were instituted. His reaction initially was the same as mine. We both had the mindset of privilege. We both thought it was an imposition by the administration on individual freedom.

    In a class a couple years ago, a former student of my professor brought his students from The High School for Civil Rights to meet our class. They discussed their feelings about the school uniforms, which had been instituted.

    Even the ones who could afford the fashionable clothes described their appreciation for the uniforms, they explained how some classmates who were unable to procure the necessary gear were subjected to severe and ongoing abuse.

    It reinforced my idea that I can’t know what world someone else sees unless I ask them. And even when I think I’m doing that in my mind (considering how the students felt), unless I actually ask, my own bias will be reflected in what I think.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Roger, what are you talking about? Most (if not all) of the people I know are NOT poor. In fact they are very well off and have it much better than I, including all races. I grew up in poverty and am not rich by any stretch of the imagination… I am a struggling single parent.

    So I am not sure what you are implying but your ignorance of my “socio-economic situation” past and present is what makes people like you come across like jerks. And since you are so eager to attack and demean people, before you know the facts, it is hard to even have a real conversation with you. I hope I am wrong…but this seems like an attack on me….

  • Doug Hunter

    “It’s the one-upmanship principle, and it operates at all levels of society.”

    That would go along way towards explaining Glenn’s motivation for constant personal attack rather than debating in the realm of ideas.

  • zingzing

    christine, i’m pretty sure roger wasn’t talking about you. where’d you get that idea?

  • zingzing

    doug, you’re just as bad. (and you’ve been debating ideas with him… when you aren’t busy just attacking him…)

  • Doug Hunter

    Christine,

    There actually is a correlation between being lower socioeconomic status and interracial marriage (at least for whites).

    Source:

    Princeton Study on Black White intermarriage

    It has a lot of interesting and eye opening data. For instance

    -White, female, native born, high school dropouts are the most likely demographic to be in an interacial marriage. They do a rudimentary analysis of some theories behind this: status exchange, perception of black masculinity, etc.

    -Northern and Southern rates were similiar in the 1950’s and only diverged in the 1960’s with the south now being 10 years behind i.e. the southern rate of intermarriage in 2000 is roughly equal to the northern rate in 1990.

    – A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view. From a black perspective, those states with higher black populations means more eligible black mates and those with less means you’re more likely to need to go outside your race. Intermarriage rates aren’t solely about the attitudes of whites.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Some people feel superior because they have more money. The whole wrong side of the tracks thing. The whole thing in school about wearing hand-me-downs or not having the cool fashions. The whole “we’re better that the ‘white trash’ people” thing. The whole, I am an ‘A’ student and it’s that much more meaningful if you (the collective you) are not. The whole keeping up with the Jones’ thing.

    (My husband’s brother and his wife came from meager means in Jersey City. He became a trader for a big firm, made lots of money. Their life became about looking good. Best haircuts and styles. Life about image and acquisition, with little substance. He told us (proudly!?!) about how they saved some shopping bags from the most exclusive stores and brought them to NYC to carry their stuff around in, so people would think that’s were they had just shopped. These were adult people with more money than they needed who did this.)

  • Doug Hunter

    “doug, you’re just as bad.”

    Yes, I respond in kind.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    - A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view. From a black perspective, those states with higher black populations means more eligible black mates and those with less means you’re more likely to need to go outside your race. Intermarriage rates aren’t solely about the attitudes of whites.

    I think I missed something in that analysis that seems evident to you Doug. Can you explain it more?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I only used the “human nature” thing tongue in cheek, for Christine’s benefit. Remember my position on the matter – it’s not a convincing form of appeal, so my use was essentially rhetorical.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Christine, you’re personalizing my comment. There’s nothing there to imply that I was talking about YOU. So you really are out of line.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For your clarification, Christine, it was a general “you” running throughout the comment. How could you even think that I was addressing you directly?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    OK Roger, I’m sorry! I must be having a bad day, but there were a lot of “YOU’s” in that statement. Plus, there is so much bashing here on BC, it is hard to distinguish between a general terms and and a specific attack.

    Truce?

  • zingzing

    roger: “How could you even think that I was addressing you directly?”

    ridiculously thin skin?

    doug: “Yes, I respond in kind.”

    as far as i can tell, you’re the only one attacking the person instead of discussing the ideas/facts/stats. maybe you’re speaking of other “discussions” you’ve had with glenn, but here, you’re the aggressor.

    that said, are you a reactionary or just a hypocrite?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course, Christine. I’ll be more aware in the future.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And I usually abstain from bashing. It serves no purpose if you want to bring a person around. Quite the contrary, it alienates them.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    A nice reminder not to take a Eurocentric view.

    Try not taking an Amerocentric view for a change. Black Americans have a specific culture that leads them to a certain level of hostility to whites – a hostility that centuries of slavery and persecution fully justifies. That slavery – and the fear that black men would get and sleep with white women – has been at the base of AMERICAN white racism.

    That was the whole point of my comment above about Israel. Many white Jews living there are infected with the Eurocentric Christian contempt of blacks “justified” in Genesis, where Ham, the supposed ancestor of all blacks, is cursed as a slave forever. But the black Jews fled persecution of black Christians, and do not have the bitter resentment of whites that even Kenyans (and certainly South African) blacks may have.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    zing @ #60:

    Doug seems to misidentify criticisms of his ideology as personal attacks.

  • Doug Hunter

    False dichotomy there Zing.

    There is very little difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them all liberals are idiots (knowing they are liberals for example). It will get you past the censors but a logical person should be able to see right through it.

    Glenn’s articles generally revolve around linking personal flaws to politics; trying to point out correlations between racism, lack of education, etc. with non liberal voting. That’s not an honest debate of ideas that’s attacking the person. Anyone can cherry pick data and make that kind of attack.

    If this article was simply about his personal journey of discovery regarding racism and not making an attack on those with opposing political viewpoints then what the hell is it doing in the politics section?

    that said, do you lack the intellect to understand what a personal attack is or do you lack the intellect to recognize your own bias?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy,

    I seem to remember a huge debate in Israel at the time of the Falashas’ migration as to whether they really were Jewish. What were the objections, and are those objections at the root of some of the ongoing hostility towards them?

  • Doug Hunter

    “Doug seems to misidentify criticisms of his ideology as personal attacks.”

    Not misidentify, identify. I recognize that most convicted rapists, murderers, and felons vote with Glenn and so do the large majority of those living off of government largesse.

    I don’t think those facts make valid criticisms of his political positions, I think pointing them out would be a kind of personal attack. Obviously, you do not.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No, Doug, I do not.

    I think his ideas are off-beam, but in the current political climate they are at least relevant.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I recognize that most convicted rapists, murderers, and felons vote with Glenn”

    Would love to see a link for those facts.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Doug,

    Isn’t it possible to point out the correlation between say, racism, lack of education and voting patterns – if such a correction really exists – without personal attack, as an objective kind of fact?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can’t vote at all in most states, that was a rhetorical point Doug was making rather than a factual claim. :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The point seems to be that when one speaks of correlations, naturally one would like such a correlation to be a significant one. Which is to say, they must think that “poor education,” “racism” and “voting patterns” are significant variables (in that tell a significant story). So of course, there’s a sort of “theory” lurking in the background, which makes us pick up certain variables and not others. We are being selective.

    But does that necessarily qualify as a personal attack?

  • zingzing

    doug: “that said, do you lack the intellect to understand what a personal attack is or do you lack the intellect to recognize your own bias?”

    there has to be something personal in a “personal attack,” doug. and everyone has their own bias. denying that would be stupid.

    if you take every criticism of conservatism as a personal attack, you’re a little bit nuts. i call bullshit. out of you and glenn, you’re the only one making personal attacks.

    “There is very little difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them all liberals are idiots (knowing they are liberals for example).”

    well, the difference is one is attacking a person’s ideology and the other is attacking the person… what are we talking about here? i’m really trying to figure out your logic here, and i’m pretty sure that’s where i’m running into troubles.

  • zingzing

    dd: “Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can’t vote at all in most states, that was a rhetorical point Doug was making rather than a factual claim.”

    ha!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I seem to remember a huge debate in Israel at the time of the Falashas’ migration as to whether they really were Jewish. What were the objections, and are those objections at the root of some of the ongoing hostility towards them?

    First of all, understand that the Ethiopian Christians called Jews “falasha” – stranger – and viewed them that way. That’s why I do not use that name at all. In this country, if you want to lose your teeth, call an Ethiopian Jew “kúshi” (nigger) or “falásha“. They came here to get away from precisely this trash and do not tolerate it.

    To answer your question, there were two sets of objections – one religious, and one in the “how could it be possible?” category, akin to the surprise the Germans felt when they saw Jews fighting and killing them off (“Juden? Waffen?”)

    The religious argument, I already outlined. Christians, after all, use OUR Hebrew Bible, so they got some of the reasoning from us, and we borrowed it back from them.

    The second argument arises from the unbelievability of the idea. How could it be (the Jews with Polish ghetto mentality reasoned) that a ‘schvartzer’ could be a Jew?” One should never underestimate the ignorance of European Jews when it comes to their own brethren who do not look or cook the same. But the Ethiopian Jews do keep kosher, they circumcize their male children in infancy, they honor the Sabbath, and most important, the Christians around them view them as Jews.

    The racism that is practiced against them now is the remnant of both attitudes. And it is wrong in both cases. A larger proportion of the Ethiopian Jews are datí, that is to say, they keep the commandments and honor the Sabbath as do folks like me, than the Jews who are not from Ethiopia.

  • STM

    Dave: “Bias against Gingers must be stopped!”

    We call ‘em “ranggers” Down Under … as in orang-utans.

    I must admit that I am fighting the demons of my own racism every day, although it’s not to do with black and white as my son is part aboriginal … and a true-blue Aussie.

    No, more like the one in four Australians who were born somewhere other than Australia, and usually the migrants who aren’t “white” (many migrnts are from Europe, South America and North America, BTW, including the US, and mainly from Britain and Ireland).

    Recent arrivals to this island continent of refugees on leaky boats have been treated by some sections of the community here as if they have the same destructive power as the US Pacific fleet. The right makes much of the the threat from these boats, when in fact the majority of asylum seekers land on jets at Australian airports, not on the Suspected Illegal Entry Vessels (SIEVs).

    Mostly, the racism is aimed at two groups: it’s about people from the middle-east (and it’s true a small, hard core of these kids is causing trouble and is responsible for most of the gang violence in Sydney, and a lot of the general crime and gun violence), although my experience is that the majority of people from the mid-east here are just hard-working people happy to have been offered a new life in what I regard as the greatest country on Earth.

    They have treated me with unbelievable kindness and hospitality in the past, while trying hard to embrace our culture but without losing the best bits of their own.

    It’s also about the many Chinese, who in the past 20 years seem to many to have irrevocably changed the culture of this predominantly anglo-celtic country and its comfy, white British way of life transplanted to a sunny place in the South Pacific 13,000 miles from the Old Country.

    It’s laughable really that so many harbour these views, since the oft-quoted Aussie mantra is “a fair go for everyone”.

    Yet Indians and Hong Kong and Singapore chinese have been here since the year dot, having been a part of the British Empire.

    Second-generation Asian and middle-eastern and Indian sub-continent kids will say “Fair dinkum” and “G’day, mate” with the best of them, and embrace everything on offer here. One of the greatest rugby league players in the Australian National Rugby League, one of the toughest sports on Earth (and I’ll cause controversy here by putting it a notch above American football on that score), is a man called Hazem El Masri, a bloke of Lebanese muslim background who is a great role model both for the sport and for the community in general, not just his own community, although that too.

    Once upon a time the quiet the hostility was aimed at Italian, Greek and Yugoslav migrants. No more. They have brought a richness to this country, especially the Italians, which can be seen in the outdoor cafes on every second street corner. All these so-called “new Australians” are now part of the rich fabric of this country’s culture.

    Racism is about fear, plain and simple.

    And yes, I’d agree with Glenn that racism is driving the vehement opposition to just everything Barack Obama does. You don’t have to beba rocket scientist to work it out, and it’s been quite shocking for non-Americans to witness the depth of it. It was something we never expected.

    But good on America for electing a black presoident abyway. He may want to see an America that has moved boyond colour, but it’s ground-breaking stuff for the US whatever he says.

    But I reckon he’d struggle with that stuff even if he managed a 10-fold increase in the standard of living for all Americans.

    You might not want to hear it from an outsider, but the prevailing view outside America is that it seems very much like Obama is regarded by certain sections of the American public as “that uppity nigger in the White House”.

    Sad, but I’d bet London to a brick it’s true.

    Racism is about fear, which is also one of the reasons the aborigines in Australia have copped such a raw deal …

    And fear is the killer of true happiness and contentment.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I recognize that most convicted rapists, murderers, and felons vote with Glenn and so do the large majority of those living off of government largesse.

    Oh indeed? You have verifiable data about how many members of these groups vote at all, let alone whom they vote for?

    Considering the results of the 2006 and 2008 elections, I believe a few others just might possibly have joined in by voting for Democrats.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “There is very little difference between calling someone an idiot and telling them all liberals are idiots (knowing they are liberals for example).”

    Doug may have a point there, zing, especially if the remark is addressed to someone who views himself as a liberal. And that’s one reason why I object to any kind of labeling – and Dave, for example, is a frequent offender – however harmless it may sound.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    69 – me too

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good point, Stan, about fear. And fear and ignorance are related as well.

  • http://saharsblog.wordpress.com Sahar

    Great post, Glenn, and amazing discussion afterwards.

    I agree that racism definitely still exists. I would like to point out that, ironically perhaps, a new form has emerged: racism against the racists! So much so that many feel oppressed because of their opinions on people from different cultural origins.

    This only serves to perpetuate the cycle of hate. Until, like you mention, we choose to not be either racist or prejudiced, this will continue.

    However, I also would like to point out that we have come a long way since the 60s. IMO, the most important development since then is the Internet, which allows everyone to have access to information; so today, someone who chooses to fight negative thoughts and opinions about others has a wealth of information as well as millions of people to talk to right at the tip of their fingers.

    So, again, while the situation has yet to clear up, we are walking the path towards 100% integration – some day :).

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, I had no idea that falasha was a derogatory term. I just remember the BBC using it at the time. They probably didn’t know any better than anyone else, since very few people other than the Ethiopians themselves even realised they existed.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Saw your blog, Sahar – Philosophical Musings; very interesting.

    You may be right, in part, about the Internet, but there’s nothing like person-to-person contacts. One just must meet people who are different than yourself in order to realize that perhaps his ways are not the only ways.

  • zingzing

    roger: “Doug may have a point there, zing, especially if the remark is addressed to someone who views himself as a liberal.”

    if you say that, then you can’t criticize someone’s ideology at all. or, if you do, then you’re guilty of making a personal attack.

    (so, yes, on some far-off planet, doug has a point. but on this one, it’s such a ridiculously small point that just by observing that it exists, it is destroyed.)

    i, for one, am going to continue to criticize ideologies without thinking i’m personally attacking someone. if doug wants to take it personally, that’s his issue, not mine. and if doug follows up by actually launching a personal attack, which is what he did, i’m going to call him out on it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    zing,

    I’m referring to statements on the order of “all liberals are idiots.” That’s not a critique of any sort – in fact, it dispenses with the need to exercise critical faculties – and as such, it serves no useful purpose.

    I’m certain you see this.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    Race is a touchy issue here, but not as much as it is in the States.

    A couple of years ago, I was standing guard at the prime minister’s office watching a discussion between some Border Guards before they were dispatched to a “garden” where they were to sit for the duration of the Sunday cabinet meeting, ready to blow the brains out of anybody who attempted to approach the building and who defied me or the secret police. They were discussing the upcoming visit of then Sect’y of State Rice. One of the white boys said to the black girl among them “I understand your cousin is coming to visit…” I watched the girl’s face carefully. I got the feeling the young lady was willing to tolerate the reference but did not like being compared to an American black – any American black.

    That should tell you something about how many American blacks are viewed overseas by black people.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Isn’t it possible to point out the correlation between say, racism, lack of education and voting patterns – if such a correction really exists – without personal attack, as an objective kind of fact?”

    Sure, but what exactly would you have accomplished except insulting people? Would you make your idea any more or less valid for showing that this or that ‘bad’ group agrees with it.

    I did a bit of research regarding whether this precise form of logical fallacy is considered ad hominem by experts (i.e. wikipedia). It is certainly considered a logical fallacy, whether it was a personal attack is more muddy. The article on ‘guilt by association’ does list it as an ad hominem but there’s no definitive answer I can determine.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Doug,

    Social sciences do it all the time. The select a number of what the researchers deem as “significant variables,” measure the correlations, and that’s one way in which their either confirm or disconfirm the original hypotheses.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can’t vote at all in most states, that was a rhetorical point Doug was making rather than a factual claim”

    What is legal and what is factual are not the same thing. Undocumented immigration is illegal, it’s nonsensical to say it doesn’t happen.

    Have you missed the controversy after several close elections where they go back and find out how many thousands of felons voted? It is not technically legal but there isn’t a comprehensive system set up to stop it. There are also several studies commissioned to address who felons would vote for.

    I’m not going to do the research for you, a quick perusal of google will back up information regarding voting patterns of felons.

  • zingzing

    roger: “I’m referring to statements on the order of “all liberals are idiots.” That’s not a critique of any sort – in fact, it dispenses with the need to exercise critical faculties – and as such, it serves no useful purpose. I’m certain you see this.”

    you take him too literally. doug is saying that glenn’s assertion linking education, etc, to voting patterns is a personal slight on him. he thinks glenn is saying all conservatives are dumb hicks (which isn’t what he’s saying, but whatever,) and because doug is a conservative, then glenn must think doug is a dumb hick. so doug pitches a fit. now doug may or may not be a dumb hick, but no one ever said he was. he just thinks someone did. which is a bit of a dumb hick move. lalala. sorry. had to come to a conclusion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I’m having a discussion with him on this very point – namely that it’s a quite acceptable procedure in the social sciences: picking out a set of significant variables, measuring the resulting correlation(s) and thus proving or disproving the hypothesis. And I don’t think there is any personal criticism or insult involved. I’m certain he’ll agree.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And we both know that neither Glenn nor Doug are “hicks,” if only judging by their syntax and sentence structure.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    picking out a set of significant variables, measuring the resulting correlation(s) and thus proving or disproving the hypothesis

    It’s those confounding variables that getcha every time. ;-)

  • Clavos

    There is a difference between “conservatives are dumb hicks,” and “dumb hicks are conservatives,” but Glenn’s liberalism as expressed in his screeds, does seem to blind him to that difference.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There is indeed a difference, Clavos. Aristotle would turn in his grave.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Can we dispatch a couple of volunteers to Aristotle’s grave with stethoscopes to determine whether he is, in fact, turning?

    [farts and runs away]

    :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    ROFLMAO!!!!!

  • Doug Hunter

    “Social sciences do it all the time.”

    Social sciences, at least the versions I experienced in college, did not seem to be as scientifically rigorous and logically sound as the other science courses. Perhaps the writers of the texts and instructors were just not particularly skilled at presenting their material in front of a critical audience.

    In a couple of classes I found, much to my chagrin, that the easiest way to get an A on written projects was simply to tow the liberal party line, celebrate victimhood, blame capitalism, free markets, and the United States rather than try and write an overly logical analysis. I remember taking my required diversity class and taking the caricature to an extreme with the professor giving me increasingly high marks as I became more radical in my writing. I was doing a little social experiment myself, and he failed miserably.

    The major flaw I saw in sociology was the overreliance on the nurture side in the nature vs. nurture debate. Alot of their (what I perceived to be faulty) assumptions and logic were built off of that.

  • zingzing

    pish

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Apart from all that, Doug, I’m talking about methodological procedures. One starts with a hypothesis, selects what they think are relevant/significant variables and proceeds with the measurements.

    The only point I was making – there isn’t any intent there to insult anyone.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    posh

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Pish Posh is used when you know something isnt right. Instead of going YA RIGHT, you simply say pish posh, This term is usually used with older drunken women in north carolina.”

    You’re revealing your southern roots, zing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Which, by all “reasonable” standards, should make you a bigot, a racist, and a southern hick.

  • Dan

    “Well, quite aside from the fact that convicted rapists, murderers and felons can’t vote at all in most states…”

    I think the Democrats may have the votes to get the Felon Voter Equality Act through the legislative process. They may need it now, with ACORN on the rocks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not you too, Cindy. I think zing, true to form, was being elliptical. But since I’ve just insulted him, I doubt whether he’ll talk to me ever again.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Yah, but who cares if he ever talks to ya Rog, he’s jest a dumb hick. ;-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hard to figure out how copying weird definitions from the internet and applying them to people one has never met, meet the requirements for any, let alone “all ‘reasonable’ standards”.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right, especially since I’m a dumb Pollack.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I know zing is from the South. We talked about it and about Southern literature.

    Have I gone out on the limb? I don’t think so. But even if I have, zing’s a friend (to my way of thinking). I’m certain he’ll forgive me, if he decides to communicate with the dumb Pollack.

  • zingzing

    roger: “This term is usually used with older drunken women in north carolina.”

    that is where i grew up, but i never did question where the term came from…

    and, yes, my logic tells me that you have insulted me and every other person of southun buuth. me n ma kinsman is gonna have at you down by the crick. you watch yerself, dyahea?

    fellers, getme dat rope… thankee… and dat dildo… oh, yer still hea.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol (So’s my husband–half Polish half Ukranian. He made me stop going to North Carolina to hang out with drunken old women, though. What a bummer.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There you go, Cindy. I reckon one just never knows when dealing with them pixels on the screen.

    And all along, I entertained the illusion that zing was a reasonable person – even erudite, I thought. And now . . .

  • zingzing

    dan: “I think the Democrats may have the votes to get the Felon Voter Equality Act through the legislative process. They may need it now, with ACORN on the rocks.”

    is there anything explicitly wrong with letting felons vote after they’ve served their time? i mean, i can see why one would think that… but what’s really the problem with it?

    if they were made to go through a class or a series of classes, or take a test, or something before they could vote, that would be a pretty good indicator that they wished to reenter society and play by the rules. really, what does a person have to materially gain from voting?

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    My great grandfather on my father’s side was a Iroquois Indian who fell in love with an escaped slave. My resulting Grandfather-who appeared black decided to better the family line by wedding a white woman in 1920s Kentucky. That lasted for about three years until they moved and tried to establish a new home in southern Ohio for which he was rewarded with a jail sentence and their marraige was desolved, but not before it produced my dad and Uncle.

    My uncle was so afraid of having black children that he adopted a white child. both my uncle and cousin died in the 70s.

    My father who appeared white married my white mother (whose maiden name is Spencer and was a 1,059th or so cousin of Lady Diana).

    From an early age my father decided that our family should remain white and we were almost taught an almost total racism towards blacks that almost destroyed the deep love I had for my grandfather.

    I deeply love the black side of my family still, but now that I was almost beaten to death by three Somolians, I can’t meet a young black’s eyes without feeling terror and it tears me up some times emotionally.

    My brother ran away and joined the Navy at 16 and met and married a Phillipine girl. My neice and nephew are oriental and my father had a fit and offered me tens of thousands back in the 80s to his gay son to produce a white heir.

    Now if I can meet and meet, fall in love with, and/or marry either an Eskimo or a Hawaiian, it should be an interesting picture for generations to come.

    Nice article Glenn

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I love North Carolina, Ashville in particular. It’s an old Southern culture, in many ways superior to that of the North. Many a great writer have come from the South. And North Carolina, in particular, was famous as the writers’ retreat.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A man walked into a bar and asked the bartender, “Hey, have you heard the latest Pollack joke?” The bartender replied, coldly, “No. And I’ll have you know I’m Polish.” That’s O.K.,” said the man, “I’ll talk slow.”

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jet –

    That’s quite a story – frankly, you should write a book. But I gather that you know how I feel.

    thanks -

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Why do polish soccer teams have to play on artificial turf? to keep the cheerleaders from grazing on the sidelines.

  • Doug Hunter

    Jet, that’s an interesting twist on appearances. My wife is Puerto Rican and most whites would definitely lump her father in as black, with her mother looking as some generic hispanic. She has dark skin and very curly hair.

    Now that she’s been transplanted from Camden into red state country and married to me some people, not a majority but some, assume she is of some descent considered white, most commonly Italian. If she were back in Camden or married to a black or hispanic man no one would make that mistake.

    It’s funny how race can be so subjective (just one more reason why it is futile to try and use race as a factor in anything).

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    It’s really interesting to hear things from your point of view. I knew about the tensions between the Australians and the Muslims and Chinese…but I was surprised to hear it directed at the Chinese because I thought the tension involved Asians (other than from India) as a whole.

    But that could be expected, though, with the rise of China. Even here in America there are a few places that offer tours specifically to Chinese businessmen who are looking for real estate bargains in America.

    As to whether Rugby’s a tougher sport than American football…by any measure rugby requires more aerobic fitness and at the non-professional (or even semi-pro) level rugby is a tougher sport. However, I recently read that the life expectancy of those who had careers in the NFL averages about 59…and I suspect it’s because of the drive to build the players’ bodies to insane levels of muscularity. Sure, they like the speed, but (especially with the linement) they want sheer muscle.

    And 150-kilo overmuscled men pounding on each other – and driven to pound that much harder – does a lot of damage over the years.

    So at the pro level, I’d say American football is the tougher sport…but not in a good way. An 80-kilo man in good shape could play rugby and play it well, but no NFL team could in good conscience consider him for a lineman. Again, the NFL’s tougher…but not in a good way.

    I did play one game of rugby – and it was a heck of a lot of fun. I have to ask, though – we who enjoy American football really love to see it played in really rotten conditions – pouring rain, mud, freezing cold, snow, the worse the better. I suspect the Aussies might see rugby the same way. Do you?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    113

    is there anything explicitly wrong with letting felons vote after they’ve served their time? i mean, i can see why one would think that… but what’s really the problem with it?

    perhaps some people think that felons don’t have good judgment. this judgment seems to lead to difficulties with a real readjustment to society for felons. there is evidence that disenfranchisement of felons is detrimental to their readjustment. makes me wonder what kind of judgment one has in cutting off own’s nose to spite one’s face.

    maybe some people just can’t forgive.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    So really, what is it about punishment? Doug?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    What is one to think about punishment for its own sake, whether it works or not?

  • Dan

    “is there anything explicitly wrong with letting felons vote after they’ve served their time? i mean, i can see why one would think that… but what’s really the problem with it?”

    The assumption by Democrat legislators seems to be that votes by felons will be votes for them. I thought I remember someone challenging Dougs assertion that Felons would vote Democrat.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s a good one, Jet – which is a side point on Polish cows. I’m glad you are taking it in the right spirit. We need to lighten the mood.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    May I recommend that you follow the examples of Dave and Clavos. Yeah, those two and I bang heads and gleefully point out the sheer idiocy of each others’ worldviews…

    …but at the end of the day, I know that they’re good men and they might even think the same of me (not that any conservative in his right mind would ever admit such a thing). Heck, I’d be happy to buy them each a beer and shoot the breeze with them – I’d get them both a specialty organic micro-brew from a local brewery that donates part of its profits to alleviate climate change. There’s a hop-heavy one named “Arrogant Bastard Ale”, which carries the slogan “You are not worthy”. Hey – we liberals can have attitudes too, you know!

    And if they bought me a beer, they might decide to get me a Budweiser (horrors!) and tell me that Bud is a lot better at a NASCAR track or listening to country music (which I hardly ever listen to anymore)…but if they do, make it Shania, Reba, Willie, or (especially) Hank Jr., and not any of the newer ones who confuse country with rock-n-roll. Hey – any guy who grew up in the country can identify with Hank Jr’s “A Country Boy Can Survive”.

    But if it must be a mainstream beer, make it Coors – I still remember the days when it was a Big Thing to go across the River to Arkansas, pick up a case of Coors, and illegally bring it back to MS. When “Smokey and the Bandit” came out, we loved it for obvious reasons – not for Burt or whatshername (was it the still-quite-sexy-even-now Sally?), but for bringing a truckload of Coors where it wasn’t supposed to go.

    So please – follow Dave’s and Clavos’ example, thicken your skin, and realize that we’re all adults here and we’re all in our own respective ways trying to do the right thing – it’s just that in a group of ten people, you’re likely going get ten different views of what the ‘right thing’ really is.

  • zingzing

    dan: “The assumption by Democrat legislators seems to be that votes by felons will be votes for them. I thought I remember someone challenging Dougs assertion that Felons would vote Democrat.”

    but that’s not what i asked. and doug said that felons vote that way, but it was pointed out that that’s usually illegal. but i don’t think there’s any particular reason to assume that felons will vote a certain way because they are felons.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    No, it is NOT that DemocratIC legislators think that the felons will vote for Democrats. Regardless of the talking point the NRA would tell you, I think you’ll find that most violent felons would be strongly against gun control. They – like those who run the gun shows – would be strongly against background checks.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And the bizarre misinformation and mistaken assumptions just keep piling up. I’ll be back later with a shovel.

    Dave

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And Doug –

    When it comes to country music, one wonders if it could be said that Johnny Cash invented rap – after all, the funniest doggone song I’ve ever heard didn’t have a single note sung in it: “A Boy Named Sue”.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    I knew a gun-show reference would get Dave’s attention….

    See what I mean, Doug?

  • Dan

    “(The point seems to be that when one speaks of correlations, naturally one would like such a correlation to be a significant one. Which is to say, they must think that “poor education,” “racism” and “voting patterns” are significant variables (in that tell a significant story).”—Roger

    An unwillingness to associate with blacks is usually considered a sign of lower-class closed-mindedness, but a recent study by Michael Emerson and David Sikkink of Rice University found that the more education white parents had, the more likely they were to rule out schools for their children simply because of the number of blacks. ““Our study arrived at a very sad and profound conclusion,” said Dr. Emerson. “More formal education is not the answer to racial segregation in this country.”

    “Although interracial marriage is legal everywhere, and media depictions of it are invariably positive, such marriages are still rare, especially for whites. A Harvard study of 2000 census data found that although 5 percent of black and 14 percent of Asian marriages cross racial lines, only 1 percent of white marriages do. Just 0.4 percent of white marriages—one in 250—are to blacks. Whites are slightly more likely to marry Asians than blacks, despite the fact that there are far fewer Asians than blacks in America. The white intermarriage rate is still a considerable gain over 1880, when only one in 1,000 white marriages was to a non-white.”

  • Dan

    “I think you’ll find that most violent felons would be strongly against gun control.”—Glen

    Gun control is a violent felons best friend.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There are 8 million stories in the Naked City, and most of them have been made up by Dave.

    (Dave, does this shovel thing involve video footage?)

  • zingzing

    dan: “a recent study by Michael Emerson and David Sikkink of Rice University found that the more education white parents had, the more likely they were to rule out schools for their children simply because of the number of blacks.”

    while i don’t doubt that such a study exists and that this is the conclusion it came to, the very idea of someone asking a white parent why they chose not to send a kid to a particular school and getting the answer “because there were too many blacks” out of a supposedly educated person to be laughable. if they did answer that way, they are stupid.

    also, those that don’t get educated generally don’t have as much choice about where their kid goes to school. and those that live in rural areas definitely don’t have a choice. so… the whole study is kinda dumb, don’t you think?

    now i’m going to look up that study to see if it even exists in any form such like you suggest.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    We [if I may presume to speak for Doc and Zing as well as myself] weren’t questioning Doug’s assertion about felons’ voting patterns so much as giggling at it. And questioning its relevance in the outcome of any real-world election.

    And I am soo glad someone found an opportunity to bring Acorn into the conversation! This always seems to raise y’all’s spirits. How lovely for ya.

  • zingzing

    hrm. the study is curiously unavailable. for all i know, you could be trying to make a point about correlations. or, in this case, a correlation.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Handy, I think I got what Doug was driving at. Unfortunately it doesn’t appear that anyone else did…

  • Doug Hunter

    “So really, what is it about punishment? Doug?”

    I haven’t thought much about it. I would assume multiple factors. I think Republicans feel that felons wouldn’t be as likely to vote for them.

    Beyond that, there is a long history of disenfranchisement of those that larger society feels haven’t properly invested themselves in the system or are actively opposed to it. That threshold has been pushed back away from investment in society (no more poll tax, literacy test, or land ownership requirement), but we still attempt to draw some line in front of felons.

    For example, alot of people probably don’t feel a rapist should have much say in women’s rights. Their vote indirectly gives them a small say therefore, it might seem a good idea to take their vote away.

    I don’t know that it makes any difference in the cosmic scheme of things whether felons vote or not. I don’t think they have any divine right to vote, but I also don’t think allowing them to vote will change the course of the country much either.

    If I had to make a decision it’d probably be no voting in jail, but restored rigth to vote after prison.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But you see, Dan – I was only taking a procedural, methodological point. I have no stake in the content, only provided an example. And yes, studies such as the one I indicated would be countermanded (and often are) but the kind you’ve cited.

    I have no problem with that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    talking …

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think I got his point, too, Dreadful.

  • zingzing

    dan, the more i think about that study, the more i have to laugh. education fosters racism? come on.

    ““Our study arrived at a very sad and profound conclusion,” said Dr. Emerson. “More formal education is not the answer to racial segregation in this country.””

    that’s not very sad and profound. that’s retarded (and very sad).

    i’m not bashing on the level of education (in general) at rice, but i’d be curious to find out where it is?

    and the answer is…

    texas.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    hrm. the study is curiously unavailable.

    It was published in the journal Ethnic and Racial Studies, which is available online but only if you’re prepared to part with phenomenal amounts of wonga for the privilege. Nevertheless, here’s an article about it.

  • Doug Hunter

    Cindy, my #139 read an extra comma into your question. I took you to be asking about felons voting, not punishment in general.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here’a a miscellany of Polish jokes, Jet.

  • Clavos

    ““Our study arrived at a very sad and profound conclusion,” said Dr. Emerson. “More formal education is not the answer to racial segregation in this country.”

    He needed a “formal study” to come to that conclusion???

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good show, Dreadful. So perhaps now they can discuss the content rather than engage in guesswork.

    Well, Clavos, I am kind of disappointed. Are we to disband “the truth will make you free” slogan?

  • Clavos

    “I think you’ll find that most violent felons would be strongly against gun control.”—Glenn

    Not likely. Any felon knows he’ll be able get guns even with gun control, just as they can get drugs now.

  • zingzing

    well, one could draw the conclusion they draw from that study, but that same person would be likely to believe that gnats come from beef.

    and it seems mighty ridiculous that they’d find a statistically meaningful sample of parents smart enough to have a phd, but dumb enough to only look at racial percentages of schools. that’s stupid twice over. both for their children (“that school has too many black kids, even though they do great on tests and graduate at a high level, that doesn’t matter, cuz they’re black,”) and for themselves (“hi mr. scientest, i’m a racist!”).

    again, i’d like to look at the actual study. i did study statistics long enough to know when they are being manipulated. this just doesn’t seem like the answer, and when something looks this far off, it usually is.

    now, of course, if you’re going to say that higher levels of education lead to people putting their kids into elite private schools, and that that leads to more segregation in schools, well that’s true. but higher levels of education isn’t going to bring jim crowe back.

  • Dan

    “He needed a “formal study” to come to that conclusion???”

    Well, the conventional wisdom here seemed to be that the desire for segregation was confined to uneducated hicks. So yea, I guess a formal study was needed.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Especially since, I’m certain, there are formal studies which argue precisely the opposite. So without “formal studies,” they’d be dealing with two untested and contradictory hypotheses.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “higher levels of education lead to people putting their kids into elite private schools, and that that leads to more segregation in schools, well that’s true.”

    Good point, zing.

  • Clavos

    My point was that I thought that was obvious. There is plenty of evidence that ALL people, black and white, self-segregate.

    Take a look at any cafeteria at lunch time.

  • zingzing

    but the point of the study was that white people do it more when they are educated…

  • Clavos

    All right then, take a look at the racial “mix” in most gated communities. Same thing.

    Atlanta and its suburbs are a good case in point. There are mostly black ones and mostly white ones, but very few (if any) racially balanced ones.

  • Doug Hunter

    Glenn #126

    I’d argue that if the world consisted solely of blogcritics contributors it’d likely be a better place in general. There’s a bit of magic in self selected groups and people who take the time to post and reflect on abstract issues greater than themselves.

    It takes a minimum level of literacy just to interact in this fashion and anyone who sticks with the site is obviously at least openminded enough to tolerate a dissenting opinion.

    So yes, I think you’re smart and I think your political views are driven by some very fine values.

    I’m certain we could enjoy a beer and have a pleasant political discussion. I have many liberal friends who I love and respect. If we did have a beer together I just doubt you’d start the conversation with your points about how racist and uneducated people people around here are supposed to be. You could still make your points, I think you’d find a way to be more subtle and judicious. That’s all I want here as well.

  • Dan

    My guess is that more educated white people are more likely to have negative experiences with the various diversity scams ran by University institutions. They realize that they need to profess what they don’t believe in order to escape persecution, but they draw the line at subjecting their children to the same racial hazards they themselves had to navigate.

  • Doug Hunter

    “those that live in rural areas definitely don’t have a choice

    I agree and have pointed that out as a benefit many times. In rural areas rich, poor, black, white, and hispanic all go to school together. There are no gated communities with their own schools. I have suggested that as one of the reasons class warfare doesn’t play out as well here. Maybe it’s not as easy to hate the guy you kow and went to school with as it is to hate the people who locked themselves in behind a gate to get away from you.

  • zingzing

    clavos, if your 156 was to my 155 (weird), then we’re still not talking about the same thing. yes, people segregate themselves. it’s true.

    but the point of this study is that is higher levels of education that leads to this segregation. it’s trying to say that solely because someone has a masters or a phd or two, they become more racist (at least when dealing with their kid’s schooling).

    i think that’s obviously bullshit and seems to ignore a lot of social, economic and plain old realistic issues in order to come to such a whacked-out conclusion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good point, Doug. We should communicate to one another online as if in person. I don’t think it’s attainable somehow (by most). I’m not certain exactly what’s missing. Perhaps the idea that we needn’t be as sensitive to other people’s feelings and sentiments when we’re not in their presence. Which gives us a kind of false sense freedom we certainly wouldn’t take in person-to-person contacts.

  • zingzing

    dan, #158: what? that’s ridiculous. now you’re blaming segregation on affirmative action and liberalism?

    #159… you forget that a majority of people do not live in gated communities. they live in racially integrated cities.

  • zingzing

    wait… #158… you’re blaming conservatives who are sick of affirmative action and liberalism for the segregation of schools…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think though your point, zing, about the higher educated wishing their kids in elite/private schools is well taken: but then again, it doesn’t indicate racism but simply the harsh reality that most public schools are not the best choice if education is the object.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Which goes without saying, of course, that the higher-educated tend to value good education more than those who haven’t had the advantage.

  • zingzing

    right. and to suggest that there is a general trend towards racism as one is gets more education is just ridiculous. unless what dan says is true and that this phenomenon is coming from people sick of a.a. and liberalism.

    (but that would also suggest that a large majority of people coming out with doctorates are conservatives, and silly enough to just look at racial percentages when deciding their child’s future.)

  • zingzing

    this just goes to show you what happens when you look at human reasoning as numbers. you come to incredibly stupid conclusions.

  • zingzing

    especially when you’re being this specific.

  • Dan

    Another study, which almost didn’t get to see the light of day because of regrettable findings, was done by Prof. Robert Putnam of Harvard.

    In a very comprehensive attitudinal survey of 41 American communities that ran the gamet between racially homogenous to racially diverse, he found that the more racially diverse a community, the less interracial trust.

    Again, it seems that when whites experiences with non-whites are confined to just the friendly, helpful, and competent images of non-whites promoted on television, they have a higher opinion of them than they do when they involve real life experiences.

    I think too, that I read somewhere that whites who lived in homogenous communities were more likely to vote for Obama than whites from diverse communities.

  • zingzing

    wait, wait. people who live in interracial communities don’t like their neighbors? what about people that live in segregated communities? do they like their neighbors? this survey is asking the wrong question. and its findings are easily explained. it’s not racism. it’s living with someone.

    “Again, it seems that when whites experiences with non-whites are confined to just the friendly, helpful, and competent images of non-whites promoted on television, they have a higher opinion of them than they do when they involve real life experiences.”

    people are dicks to each other. it’s true.

    “the friendly, helpful, and competent images of non-whites promoted on television…”

    what’s this? can’t quite get a handle on this one… what are you saying here? that non-whites are mean, dismissive and incompetent?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Do we really need to go down this road again? Generally speaking, the more urbanized a state’s population is, the more likely it is to be a blue state. The more rural a state’s population is, the more likely it is to be a red state.

    Except, of course, for Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Florida and Georgia, all of which are highly urbanized and pretty solid red states.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    i’m not bashing on the level of education (in general) at rice, but i’d be curious to find out where it is?

    Zing, Rice is a super-liberal college in a highly ethnic urban environment, which is generally ranked at a level equivalent to the Ivy League schools. It’s regularly ranked as one of the very best colleges in the nation, and it’s so far left that it’s challenging Brown.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And if they bought me a beer, they might decide to get me a Budweiser (horrors!)

    Shiner bock. Here in Texas we drink real Bohemian style beer.

    and tell me that Bud is a lot better at a NASCAR track or listening to country music (which I hardly ever listen to anymore)…but if they do, make it Shania, Reba, Willie, or (especially) Hank Jr., and not any of the newer ones who confuse country with rock-n-roll. Hey – any guy who grew up in the country can identify with Hank Jr’s “A Country Boy Can Survive”.

    Your stereotypes are amusing, but just show how little you get it. I don’t watch NASCAR and hate country music. I suppose some of my compatriots do, but I know plenty of people in blue states who have those tastes as well. Hell, people in Maine and the midwest have a bizarre ongoing love for hair metal. Can’t get more retarded than that.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know what to say, zing. There are dicks all over, and they come in all shapes and sizes, not to mention black or white, whatever’s your preference. But it would seem to me that if one lives in an integrated community, one is bound to run into all kinds of people, good and bad. Fact of life. So why should living in an integrated community be conducive to a person developing a general kind of bias, against one group of people as such, be they blacks or Latinos or whatever – that, my friend, is beyond me.

    Someone had better explain this to me.

  • Doug Hunter

    Latent racism and confirmation bias.

  • Doug Hunter

    If you live near minorities you’re more likely to have a bad experience with them and blame them for it. For example, see Jet’s comment about getting beaten by Somalians and how it has affected him.

  • Clavos

    you forget that a majority of people do not live in gated communities. they live in racially integrated cities.

    But the highly educated, who tend to be highly paid, DO tend to live in the suburbs in gated communities. Who the hell you think are the target market for those places? The single moms on welfare and food stamps?

    Again, Atlanta illustrates this very well; it’s a majority black city (but not metro area), and it’s highly segregated by choice.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But you’re also gonna run into “good ones.” It is then when you realize that “people are people.”

  • Dan

    “what’s this? can’t quite get a handle on this one… what are you saying here? that non-whites are mean, dismissive and incompetent?”

    I am talking about how they are portrayed on television. The mean, dismissive and incompetent roles are dominated by white men.

    If you are white and live in a homogenous community, your impressions of non-whites would likely be more limited to the positive roles you see them play on television.

    This is not an explanation from the study. It’s my interpretation.

    ” what about people that live in segregated communities? do they like their neighbors?”

    Yes. For all races. The trust, and community participation was positively corrolated in a nearly straight line with the level of diversity.

  • http://saharsblog.wordpress.com Sahar

    Glad you like my blog, Roger :) I can drive myself crazy sometimes, thinking things over; my blog has become something of my therapist!

    You’re right about nothing being like person to person contact; however, for the unlucky who cannot travel for whatever reason, it’s the next best thing!

  • zingzing

    you really think people like their neighbors? i don’t know what kind of a candyland you live in, but neighbors have fights all the time. “community” is a little different from neighbors, however. there is more neutrality/positivity and less personal junk. i can despise a neighbor and still like my neighborhood.

    “I am talking about how they are portrayed on television. The mean, dismissive and incompetent roles are dominated by white men.”

    all of the roles on television are dominated by white men. but television isn’t just sitcoms and procedural dramas. there’s also the news, and celebrity-centered junk, and mtv, reality television, etc, etc, etc. so people don’t just non-whites in cuddly, token roles. and the media portrayal of non-whites is not always favorable. in fact, some of them are demonized.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I liked that part when you talk about activism. Traces of Gandhi and pacifism, but I only skimmed it.

    It’s the practical application of what absorbs me now as a theoretical problem. Cindy will like it too, and I’ll alert her to it. She’s more of an activist than I am, but I’ll give it a more thorough read next time.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    176-

    If you live near minorities you’re more likely to have a bad experience with them and blame them for it. For example, see Jet’s comment about getting beaten by Somalians and how it has affected him.

    That strikes me as inaccurate. I lived in cities as a child. Some schools were 60% to 90%+ black students as an estimate. (I went to a different school every year in two states.) Where I had problems with bullies they were almost always in the white minority.

  • zingzing

    a lot of people, when they are exposed to a different culture, begin to like, even love, that culture. some people actually seek it out. not everyone is happiest ending up exactly where they started in life.

  • Zedd

    I find the comments on the thread interesting. This being a new article it has already attracted a lot of commentary. I see this as an interesting thing. Most posters are skirting the topic but its apparent that they want to discuss it because they keep posting.

    Some post for the purpose of gaining absolution (in some weird way), denying the gravity of Glens assertions or tagging racist behavior as “just talk”.

    I sense that most posters are proud of Glen and wish they had the strength to be that introspective. I also sense that Glen has made BC voyeurs cringe in that it is standard practice to deny racism. Every generation has always acknowledged the racism of the past but not that of the present (to the extent that it exists).

    I could certainly understand Glen’s feelings about his only son marrying outside of his race and everything that goes with that. The idea that my nephews would marry outside of our race and my beautiful name would fade into White oblivion is highly disturbing but it’s also very silly of me. People are just people. Yes there are things that I love about my own people and there are things that I find highly ridiculous about Caucasian culture (not genetics), however on an individual bases, people are just people. So, if those White folks in the future with an unrecognizable drop of my genes are wonderful people and just happen to have my lovely Zulu name, awesome! I still say that with a tinge of “ickiness” however.

    While I struggle with my prejudices and they need to end, racism is worse. It effects other’s quality of life; complete strangers who may be really kind and highly gifted.

    Kudos Glen! Someone sorta clever said an unexamined life is one that is not worth living. You must have an abundant life. I am working on that.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    a lot of people, when they are exposed to a different culture, begin to like, even love, that culture.

    that’s my experience. that close interaction dispels fears and promotes tolerance.

  • Clavos

    Cindy #183:

    What a difference a few years of age makes! Through high school, I never attended a school with so much as one black student in the entire school.

    Not until after I got back from Vietnam in 1966 and enrolled in college.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “White oblivion.” I like that.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Through high school, I never attended a school with so much as one black student in the entire school.”

    my mom never even SAW a black person in the flesh until she was 18 and went to minneapolis.

  • Dan

    From my experience, I see almost no negative portrayals of non-whites. Except in the news.

    One commercial for Saturn cars was a stand out. In it, a nerdish white guy was sitting behind the wheel of a car in the showroom. A handsome, athletic black guy was leaning in pitching some of the features. After a pause, the white guy says “do you think girls will go for me, with this car?” The black guy softens his voice and says “it’s not what you drive, it’s what you have inside”. He then taps his heart with his fist.

    The significance didn’t register until sometime later when I heard the radio version of the commercial. In it the black guys voice had changed to a more stereotypical black street voice.

    Apparently it was important to the producers that the audience knew for sure it was a black guy giving a white nerd a life lesson on interpersonal relationships.

    I could go on and on. In some true life dramatizations black and hispanic villans are swapped out for white guys. And sympathetic whites are exchanged with sympathetic non-whites.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Except, of course, for Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Florida and Georgia, all of which are highly urbanized and pretty solid red states.

    Broadly true, Dave, although I wouldn’t say Nevada and Florida, both of which went for Obama last go-around and have one Democratic senator each, are particularly ‘solid’.

    I’m also not sure about Texas, which is the size of a modest galaxy and is a law unto itself most of the time anyway.

  • zingzing

    dan: “From my experience, I see almost no negative portrayals of non-whites. Except in the news.”

    you’ve never watched the wire, have you? if a drama features non-whites, and is not a silly sitcom, it’ll have non-white villains. are you saying all of the villains are white, even the ones about non-whites? i don’t own a television, so it’s not like i can just whip out examples left and right, but damn, man. you must not own a television either. there are plenty of non-white villains. it’s that there aren’t that many non-white characters to begin with.

    “Apparently it was important to the producers that the audience knew for sure it was a black guy giving a white nerd a life lesson on interpersonal relationships.”

    you are devoid of humor. and i can’t believe that that’s the significance you took from it. it’s making fun of black men, as if they’re supposed to be all about the pussy and they have no love for women, etc, etc, and all that nonsense.

    “I could go on and on.”

    you are… are you a white separatist?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I think it’s more than age Clav. We started out fairly poor, we always lived in the nicest inner city dwellings affordable–houses and newish projects and apartments, when I was very young in both NJ and inner city Los Angeles. Later in the most affordable middle class neighborhoods. And later still in our own home at the shore and then in the country.

    My mother and her siblings grew up in Newark. My uncle is your age. They lived in poor neighborhoods throughout highscool (not all graduated). Their generation moved up financially and made it out of the city.

    I was the first person in my family to get a B.A. (one aunt had an A.A.), my cousin has the first master’s at Columbia with her B.A. from Dartmouth. My sister is working on a master’s in reading now. We are the progeny of the immigrants.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Through high school, I never attended a school with so much as one black student in the entire school.

    The primary (=elementary) school I went to was situated in a very genteel South London suburb. During my time there, there was one black girl and one Indian girl in the entire school. (I seem to remember there was also a Japanese kid in my brother’s class – he was three years below me – but he was the son of a businessman and went home in fairly short order.)

    When it was time to go to secondary (=junior high/high) school, everything changed. By a freak of geography, the school my parents decided to send me to (it was the only one within walking distance) had as its catchment area some of the rough’n’est, tough’n’est neighbourhoods in the borough. Suddenly my classmates were every colour of the rainbow, which was a bit of a culture shock but not as much as you might expect, as the demographic makeup of the genteel middle-class street where we lived was also changing, with a lot of black and South Asian families moving in. Most of the bullies were still white, but statistically no more so than you’d expect. The two favourites of the teaching staff were as thick as two short planks but were ‘characters’ – they were both black. The biggest arsehole of them all (the kid who made it a point of stealing my lunch money until I caught him at it one day) was Greek. Yes, it sure was an equal opportunity hellhole.

    What that tells you I don’t know. Except that in Britain – while there was and still is racism – the colour of your skin just didn’t seem to have the fundamental importance most Americans still seem to attach to it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But what’s the value of sizing up a group of people on the basis of TV stereotypes?

    Any person who’d do that apparently haven’t had any meaningful contact with or exposure to real-life people. He or she is like a babe in the woods.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    P.s. 193- My grandparents parents, were coal mining immigrants who lived in P.A. My dad’s parents came directly to Newark from Italy.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    …it sure was an equal opportunity hellhole.

    Urban jungle.

    What that tells you I don’t know. Except that in Britain – while there was and still is racism – the colour of your skin just didn’t seem to have the fundamental importance most Americans still seem to attach to it.

    For all my interracial experience, I only ever remember 1 black girl bullying me. Hadda fight her or die in the bathroom. Thank heavens her ‘group’ stood back and didn’t help her (honor among bullies?). And that was the last of her bullying.

    So, what happen to the boy who stole your lunch money?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    you are… are you a white separatist?

    Dan, what is up? I have gotten that impression from you as well in prior conversations. So, are you for saving the white race?

  • Dan

    “you are devoid of humor. and i can’t believe that that’s the significance you took from it. it’s making fun of black men, as if they’re supposed to be all about the pussy and they have no love for women, etc, etc, and all that nonsense.”

    That’s what you came up with from the description I gave you? Incredible. But I’m the one devoid of humor?

    Actually I have a black friend. We were the corn-hole champions at his back yard barbeque.

    Have fun with that ;>

  • zingzing

    dan, it makes fun of stereotypes. the white nerd wanting to get laid and putting his hopes in a car and the black guy who, surprisingly, has a heart. you just missed the second part.

    and what is corn-holing?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    So, what happen to the boy who stole your lunch money?

    He either went hungry or found someone else to steal from. I made sure to keep the money in my trouser pocket from then on rather than in my jacket on a peg in the corner of the classroom.

    I tried to give him a wide berth after that, although he had very little concept of boundaries. Tried to get me to give him the answers to an important test more than once. Goodness knows what he’s doing now. I tried Googling him once. Nothing.

  • Dan

    “So, are you for saving the white race?”

    Of course. Are you saying you’re not?

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    What planet do you live in?

    YES there has been an improvement in how Blacks are portrayed. TV commercials are the most noticeable (especially with respect to Black males). I’ve noticed in the past five years or so that bank, car, and insurance commercials do feature normal acting Black males. I’m guessing because they are the archetype of hyper masculinity in White culture. However, the sisters still sell cleaning products, feminine hygiene, and other bodily function related items at disproportional rates. Many of them still below out “honey….” in a mammy-esque manner.

    I see lots of negative portrayals of Blacks and Hispanics in movies. Whenever a White protagonist has to prove his toughness, he always has to beat up a minority in order for us to buy that he is really strong. Spanish women are often times super sexual and Black women are hardly ever portrayed as beautiful. I don’t see the type of attractive Black women that are at my church on in my social circles on TV. There is typically this almost masculine looking woman who could pass for a transvestite and everyone pretends she is beautiful so they are not thought to be prejudice. Or There is this chubby loud woman among slender, cute Caucasian women (Desperate Housewives). You’d think Hallie Berry and Beyonce were the only attractive Black females on the planet. You don’t typically see the fat sloppy White women who are spread out throughout this great state (TX) or the really dumb White guys that I’ve met through the years, except on Jerry Springer. You don’t see the chain smokers with brown teeth, leathery skin and what is called a trailer park tan all that much on TV but they exist in the millions. There is still the constant image of the White savior. Maybe that is why when I move into a neighborhood, my White neighbors always offer a LOT of unsolicited lame advise (about things that I am really good at).

    But it’s true what Cindy says, once they get to know me, we end up with a normal relationship. They come for advise and visa versa. It takes a while though.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Does “the white race” need saving?

    And from what? Contamination?

  • Dan

    Corn-hole is a backyard game where you pitch 4 pound bags stuffed with corn about 30 feet into a 6 inch diameter hole cut in a slanted piece of plywood. It’s like horseshoes only more portable.

  • zingzing

    dan: “Of course. Are you saying you’re not?”

    what does the white race need saving from? i’d say we’re doing ok…

  • zingzing

    dan: “Corn-hole is a backyard game where you pitch 4 pound bags stuffed with corn about 30 feet into a 6 inch diameter hole cut in a slanted piece of plywood. It’s like horseshoes only more portable.”

    i really don’t know what to do with that.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    I agree. In Britain there isn’t this thick layer of racism like here. It’s almost unsettling at first. You don’t feel that people are either trying to be extra nice to you or are trying to avoid you. It’s weird.

    I think a part of it is because they are not trying to be a melting pot. They are a nation of Brits and immigrants. Cultures are acknowledged for what they are instead of something to stamp out like demon possession. However people do assimilate. Second generation East Asians or Jamaicans/Africans do for the most part become British (enculturated).

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dan to zingzing: “Have fun with that ;>”

    Red rag to a bull…

  • Dan

    “dan, it makes fun of stereotypes. the white nerd wanting to get laid and putting his hopes in a car and the black guy who, surprisingly, has a heart. you just missed the second part.”

    It’s a stereotype that a black guy has a heart?

    Thanks for setting me straight on a commercial you haven’t seen.

    “What planet do you live in?”

    Sometimes I call it the real world. I don’t see many of the examples you give, but some I do. But then zing claims most all the roles are dominated by white men. So I guess we all see different things.

  • Zedd

    “”Have fun with that ”

    zing don’t bite. he knowseth not what he says-eth.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    Which ones do you not see?

  • zingzing

    “It’s a stereotype that a black guy has a heart?”

    jesus christ. no. that’s why the word “surprisingly” is in there. i explained it above. the stereotype they’re playing on is that the macho black guy will be all about getting laid. don’t play dumb.

    “But then zing claims most all the roles are dominated by white men.”

    on television? yeah. are you going to tell me that most of the shows you see on television feature a cast dominated by non-whites? and we’re talking about fictional shows here, right? jesus. even most news anchors are white. even most reality show contestants are white.

    “So I guess we all see different things.”

    yeah, i see television.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Part of the difference may be – in England there’s isn’t much of the slavery vestige (I don’t mean in the colonies but in the homeland). Am I totally off?

    And perhaps the Carribean population which migrates look “to bettering” themselves. That’s at least has been my experience with the Jamaican people in NY.

    So steer me on the right track here, Dreadful. I’m just surmising.

  • Dan

    “what does the white race need saving from? i’d say we’re doing ok…”

    Cindy evidently thinks saving the white race is a point of contention. I think whites deserve to pursue their interests as a racially conscious group just as other races explicitly do theirs.

    Perhaps even more so. After all, they are the engineers of the type of modern society that other races aspire to belong in.

  • Dan

    “jesus christ. no. that’s why the word “surprisingly” is in there. i explained it above. the stereotype they’re playing on is that the macho black guy will be all about getting laid. don’t play dumb.”

    Zing, you need to pay attention. The black guy is a sensitive guy. The white nerd is the one who is all about getting laid. That’s why he’s asking. He doesn’t get it. jees.

    ” even most news anchors are white. even most reality show contestants are white.”

    It’s still a white majority country zing. Although I would bet that at least blacks are overrepresented in proportion to their actual number.

    “yeah, i see television.”

    You don’t have one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s been a great show, in that case. And we had better congratulate ourselves for the fine job we’ve done.

    One must grant that Dan is consistent. It’s the Western civilization that needs saving and he makes no bones about it.

    What’s that Louis Armstrong’s song, What a Wonderful World.

  • zingzing

    woohoo! we got a good ol’ white supremacist up in here! and so closeted… that was like pulling teeth. or catching a big, smelly fish…

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    201-

    That is charming. They rarely do have boundaries. :-)

    Did you try facebook? You can put your schools and can find almost anyone.

  • zingzing

    “The black guy is a sensitive guy. The white nerd is the one who is all about getting laid. That’s why he’s asking.”

    i’m not sure where you think i’m confused on this. the white guy is asking the black guy if the car will get him laid because the black guy looks sensitive? is that what you’re telling me? you said he was athletic (as in well-built, a ladies man, a smooth-talking salesman) before… and on the radio ad, he was more stereotypically black. look, i’m only going by your description, so if you haven’t told me something, don’t blame me.

    “It’s still a white majority country zing.”

    i don’t dispute that. so now you agree that white people dominate television?

    “You don’t have one.”

    that’s right, but that doesn’t mean i’m ignorant of it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    202

    No, Dan. I don’t care about race. Race shmace. Why do you care?

  • Clavos

    The only question is whether or not western “civilization” is worth saving.

    I don’t think so and I’m expecting to live to see the day Islam controls the world…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No, Roger, you’re pretty much spot on.

    There was some ugliness when the first major waves of immigration from the former colonies happened in the 50s and 60s – the unions in particular resisted, and for a while it was difficult for an Indian or Jamaican man to get any job except as a bus conductor (ticket collector) or a dustman (garbage man).

    And while there is a significant amount of residual racism, it’s more along the lines of ‘they don’t belong here’ rather than ‘they’re inferior to us’.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    After all, they are the engineers of the type of modern society that other races aspire to belong in.

    On the backs of those others, through slavery and conquest. (basically by murdering people, stealing and enslaving them) No thanks. I only have a limited lifetime on this planet. I have better things to do with it.

  • zingzing

    here’s what i see in my head from what you’ve told me:

    scene: an auto dealership. white nerd sits in a sporty automobile, athletic black man slides up to the window and leans in.

    black man: she does 0-60 in 7 seconds, and she’s got a turning radius of blah blah blah.

    white man: but will it get me laid?

    black man: it’s not about the car, it’s what you’ve got in here. [patting his chest, looking concerned.]

    if there’s something different going on, let me know.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “I don’t think so and I’m expecting to live to see the day Islam controls the world…”

    i’d expect buddhism. and that would be alright.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Dreadful. It’s good to know that my intuition is still working (occasionally).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I hope you caught the irony, Cindy. Especially in light of what we’re discussing elsewhere.

  • Clavos

    No way the Buddhists will beat out the Islamics.

    The Islamics are more determined to further their belief system than any other group in the world these days.

    Certainly more determined than any of the western democracies.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Any felon knows he’ll be able get guns even with gun control, just as they can get drugs now.

    That’s a false argument. For one thing, I think you would agree that many criminals – perhaps even most – are lazy. That’s why most career criminals don’t hold down jobs. That’s also why when a criminal can’t get through a locked door within one minute, he’s more likely to just walk away and go somewhere else.

    So that means it is WRONG to make it easy for a felon to go to a gun show and buy a gun without a required background check. It’s just like locking our doors and windows – sure, it may make it a temporary pain in the butt for us law-abiding citizens to get a gun…but it should NOT be so easy for a felon to do so.

    And while it IS easy for a lot of felons to go find and illegally buy a gun on the street, it is NOT so easy to do so for all felons. To claim that it is so easy to do so is a false argument. That’s like saying we should legalize easy access to methamphetamine because anyone can get it so easily on the street.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    sounds to me like zing understands the commercial perfectly clearly, without even seeing it. it’s the only way it would make any sense.

    dan’s interpretation sounds a bit far fetched.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “The Islamics are more determined to further their belief system than any other group in the world these days.”

    pinky: what are we going to do today, islam?

    islam: why, try to take over the world, of course!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Except, of course, for Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Florida and Georgia, all of which are highly urbanized and pretty solid red states.

    And how urbanized are they in comparison to, say, Massachusetts or New York? Or most places in Europe, for that matter? This tendency isn’t found only in America, but in any place where humans live.

    And if you’ll remember, Obama won Florida. That’s not a blue state yet – too many historically-conservative Hispanics, too many elderly skew it somewhat – but the overall trend will hold true as time goes on.

    I’m sorry, Dave, but I believe that history will show this is a fact of human sociology.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing – LOL! That was one of my favorite cartoons….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think the matter of the commercial has become a moot point by now. And to be discussing it at this point – and yes, even engaging good ol’ Clav here about a secondary issue (sorry, Glenn) – is like discussing yesterday’s weather.

    I’ve said my piece, but you’re all free of course to fire away.

    Good night to you all.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I hope you caught the irony, Cindy. Especially in light of what we’re discussing elsewhere.

    Roger, I felt sick after reading that text. He doesn’t add much to my basic framework of understanding. He more or less verified things I thought and filled in some missing details. Maybe we should wear buttons that say, ‘Need assistance? We know how the world got fucked up.’

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Me too Glenn. That and Wallace and Grommit.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Ahhhh luv Cheeeeeese!!!

    (good night ladies, good night ladies, good night ladies…it’s time to go away….)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    Kudos Glen! Someone sorta clever said an unexamined life is one that is not worth living. You must have an abundant life. I am working on that.

    Thanks Zedd. It’s nice to hear an African acknowledge the same feelings. I do have an abundant life – I’m the luckiest (most blessed) man in the world. I also remember the story of Job: God can take all this away from me in an instant – and if He does (I pray He doesn’t)…then whatever the pain I feel, still, all glory to His name for allowing me these years of happiness.

    Sorry for waxing religious – I don’t normally do so, but I thought the occasion called for it. In my opinion, one’s capacity for happiness correlates directly with his ability and determination to count his blessings.

  • Dan

    “woohoo! we got a good ol’ white supremacist up in here!”

    I must have missed that.

    “i’m not sure where you think i’m confused on this.”

    I know. You should probably go back and read my first entry on the subject. Then read your response. I think that’s where you went off track.

    “No, Dan. I don’t care about race. Race shmace. Why do you care?”

    Good, then you shouldn’t mind if whites re-assert their racial consciousness for their own interests in the same way other races currently do. In fact you shouldn’t mind if some of those whites decide they would rather be left alone by other races.

    It wouldn’t bother me if any race wanted to be separate. I think people should be free to live the way they are comfortable.

    This will be my last post here, I need sleep.

    I think what creeps me out about Glenns article is his inner struggle with what I guess he considers an irrational impulsiveness. It doesn’t sound very stable to me.

    He’s kind of like the latent homosexual who really hates other homosexuals for what he fears in himself.

    I don’t worry about my racism. I know exactly the game that’s being played. Race is the great taboo of our age, as sex was for the Victorians. When you cannot talk openly about a considered opinion without being labled “supremecist” or “racist” you know that it’s not you, it’s them.

    I don’t suffer the inner turmoil Glenn does, because I don’t care what it is that is true.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    ” . . .because I don’t care what it is that is true.”

    Explain that to me, Dan, the next time around. I’m not certain of your meaning.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Glenn has obviously touched a few nerves with this one. Quite a comment thread.

    Cindy: Do you get the Sundance Channel? They are showing Brick City, a documentary series about Cory Booker and Newark this week. Good stuff, and it definitely touches on the subject of this article.

    It reminds me of [the fictional] The Wire, possibly the best TV series ever and also one of the least self conscious and most hard-hitting about race.

  • Jordan Richardson

    When you cannot talk openly about a considered opinion without being labled “supremecist” or “racist” you know that it’s not you, it’s them.

    And when I plow over old ladies in the crosswalk with my Hummer, it’s not my fault either.

    I don’t suffer the inner turmoil Glenn does, because I don’t care what it is that is true.

    …the fuck?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    You could still make your points, I think you’d find a way to be more subtle and judicious. That’s all I want here as well.

    Doug, subtlety was never one of my strong points – that’s why I suck at salesmanship, at networking human contacts, at massaging the egos of others. To me, unwarranted patronizing of others is an insult – any compliment I give is quite sincere. I look at the facts (as well as they can be determined), at the relationship(s) between facts.

    And when I give my conclusions because of those facts, I do try to sugar-coat them to try to keep from offending others…and if I do insult someone else (other than politicians or celebrities), it is never – repeat, never – intentional.

    I’ve heard that those with Aspberger’s syndrome and some high-functioning autistics have some behavioral symptoms similar to these. I don’t have Aspberger’s or autism, but I do have ADD (not ADHD). I consider it a real blessing because we who have ADD tend to mentally ‘change channels’ much more often than we should (thus “Attention Deficit Disorder”). What this has enabled me to do is to quickly make connections between disparate facts…and it’s also made me look pretty goofy to friends and family. You probably saw a little bit of it when I digressed to country music, Johnny Cash, and rap music in an earlier reply.

    You may have seen some commercials for ‘Bing’ recently where someone says a word…and then everyone around begins to do word definition/association in monotone voices, obviously mocking Google. I’m not quite that bad, but my mental channel-surfing sure seems that way sometimes.

    In other words, I’m not Spock – but I feel that way sometimes. And, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m WAY too wordy.

    Again, you may feel you see veiled insults…but nothing I’ve written were ever intended as insults, veiled or otherwise. If I’m wrong in something, I’m the first person (as Dave and Clavos can tell you) to publicly apologize – for the shame comes not from publicly apologizing for being or doing wrong – the shame comes instead from refusing to acknowledge one’s error, from refusing to apologize to others as appropriate.

  • Clavos

    And while it IS easy for a lot of felons to go find and illegally buy a gun on the street…

    Yes it is, and making them illegal will not make them any harder to get than drugs are on the grounds of most any school in the nation.

    Laziness doesn’t matter; drugs are and have been illegal and you or I (or anyone) can buy them anywhere.

    Guns are no different.

    They’re illegal in Mexico, and the drug dealers are killing each other (and innocents in the thousands).

    Speaking of drug kingpins: they are anything BUT “lazy.” Most of ‘em work as hard as any other executive.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    To reinforce what I said about insults in #244, look what Dan said in #240:
    I think what creeps me out about Glenns article is his inner struggle with what I guess he considers an irrational impulsiveness. It doesn’t sound very stable to me. He’s kind of like the latent homosexual who really hates other homosexuals for what he fears in himself.

    I don’t take that as an insult, but rather as an observation – a patently wrong observation, but one made sincerely with no intention to insult.

    However, if someone had posted that about you, would you have taken it as a personal insult? I think you probably would have – but that doesn’t make me any better or worse than you, just different. I just wanted to illustrate what I think is the source of our conflict with each other.

  • Clavos

    And if you’ll remember, Obama won Florida. That’s not a blue state yet – too many historically-conservative Hispanics, too many elderly skew it somewhat – but the overall trend will hold true as time goes on.

    It’s not a trend. Obama won, but only one county in Florida, Broward, is solidly democrat. The entire legislature, both houses is Republican controlled, as is the governor’s office.

    Three out of the five congressmen in the most populous county, Miami-Dade, are Republican. Of the other two, one’s district is solid black, while the other’s is almost entirely in Broward county (see above).

    Florida is not a progressive state, and not likely to become one any time soon, especially now that it’s losing population.

  • Clavos

    I’ve said my piece, but you’re all free of course to fire away.

    Gee, thanks, Roger. Wouldn’t want to discuss anything without your approval…

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    I agree that the drug kingpins work as hard as anyone else – but I think it is an accurate statement to say that many (most, IMO) career criminals are lazy – and if you make it easy for them to get a gun legally, they’ll do it. If you make it impossible to get a gun legally, then when he does commit a crime with it, that’s one more charge against him…and a possibility that you might get the one who sold it to him.

    AND if we had registration of all firearms, we could much more easily find those ‘law-abiding citizens’ who are selling their gun illegally – and yes, I’ve seen it happen precisely this way before.

    It won’t prevent most gun crimes, but it will prevent many. A decrease of, say, even just 10% of gun crimes nationwide would be a huge benefit.

  • Clavos

    Well, Glenn the 10% is a figure you just plucked out of thin air. In reality there’s no way of knowing whether or not gun crime will be reduced at all, particularly if the judiciary continues to be as lenient as it has been for decades in meting out sentences.

    In the meantime, I’m hanging on to mine. And will hang on to them even more tightly if having them becomes illegal, though I doubt I will ever have to worry about that.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Did you not see that I said Florida’s not a blue state yet, that the historically-conservative Hispanics and large elderly population skew the trend?

    EVERY trend will have exceptions to the rule.

    But mark my words – as time passes, Florida will grow less conservative than it is now. It cannot help but do so as population continues to increase (Florida’s population may be temporarily decreasing, but I think you know that’s only temporary), and as technology helps us all to be more interconnected.

    Want more proof? Compare Florida now to what it was thirty years ago. Is it more conservative now? Or less? Notice I’m not saying ‘Democratic and Republican’ but ‘conservative and liberal’.

    Come to think of it, how many American states have gone from mostly liberal to mostly conservative? I can’t think of any long-lasting examples, only several temporary shifts in time of war.

    On the other hand, I think I can safely say that EVERY state that is majority-liberal was at one point quite conservative by today’s standards.

    The trend holds and will continue slowly but irresistibly…unless otherwise affected by major catastrophe or war.

  • STM

    Glenn writes: “As to whether Rugby’s a tougher sport than American football”.

    Nooooooo mate. This is the mistake you yankees make. NOT rugby as you know it, Glenn – rugby league is a totally different game. There are two separate sporting codes of rugby (Union and League) and their only similarities really are the shape of the ball, the size of the field and the big sticks and cross bar at each end of the paddock.

    I prefer Rugby Union for its (subtle? Not!) nuances. My son played it at a very elite level. I played rugby league instead as a young bloke and got smashed around, although I prefer the other game to watch :)

    These two vids are must watch for educational purposes

    Rugby League is played with 13 players, not 15, and is more like American football in its strategy. The ball is not in play once the tackle is made. Check out this “big hits” video: Lots of very hard front on tackling. Although RL is played internationally, the videos I’ve posted for you are of the annual State of Origin series between Queensland and New South Wales, which is probably the best standard in the world. Trust me, having watched both NFL and NRL, I can categorically say that NRL IS a much harder sport. No defensive or offensive teams either. You play your 80 minutes. But I don’t say it from a mine’s better than yours point of view.

    It just is.

    Plus, as you know :) I just love educating you Yanks, too, that’s all.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    I think the context of my post never claimed anything other than ‘plucking’ that 10% out of thin air.

    But by the same token, you have no proof that requiring background checks and nationwide registration would result in gun violence at current or increased levels…whereas I’m quite confident that I can show that it would almost certainly decrease.

    Clavos, I don’t want to take your guns. If guns suddenly became outlawed, I’d be first in line to go get one. BUT it is irresponsible in the extreme to continue to allow convicted violent felons to legally purchase guns just so the NRA can pretend that they’re protecting the Constitution.

    Again, allowing convicted violent felons to purchase guns at gun shows just because you don’t want to run background checks is akin to allowing convicted drug dealers to purchase all the ingredients they need to make meth in bulk.

  • STM

    And after much study of this subject, and countless arguments, this is how I rate the combined physical toughness requirements of the world’s major body contact team sports (at elite professional level, not packs of gibberers running around the park on Saturdays who should better):

    1) Rugby League (at the top level only)

    2) American Football (likewise)

    3) International Rugby Union (Five Nations in the northern hemisphere, Tri Nations in the southern)

    4) Canadian pro football

    5) AFL, Australian Rules football (what rules? More an all-in brawl involving 36 players played on a giant oval ground)

    6) Pro Ice Hockey

    7) Gaelic football

    8) Irish hurley (just for the danger factor)

    and ………….

    103) Soccer

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    Owwwww…..ouch!

    Okay – you Aussies win. I’ll shut up – and thanks for the edjimication.

    Man – we can’t drink you under the table, your sport’s tougher than ours, your wildlife is more dangerous than ours (our bears and big cats are too uncommon to count), the Outback is as forbidding as Death Valley, and I already mentioned Metal Storm…so what the heck do we have that’s better (in a dangerous-yet-manly sort of way)?

    Hm. Ann Coulter? Nah. Dangerous, manly, but not too bright.

    New Jersey? North of the Mason-Dixon can’t qualify.

    Afghanistan? Dangerous AND manly…just not a part of the U.S.

    the American President? It’s the most dangerous job in America (Obama’s receiving 30 death threats every day), and so far it’s been 100% male (does this include Eleanor Roosevelt?)…but they’re all politicians, so that can’t be it, either.

    Hah! I know! We’ve got Russell Crowe, the Gladiator! No, waitaminnit…he’s Australian already….

    Our gators don’t compare to your crocs….

    But we DO have Sam Adams, and we DON’T have Foster’s…so there!

  • zingzing

    dan: “I must have missed that.”

    yeah, i’m sure you did. you explain as much in the rest of your comment. you sure are good at self-delusion.

    “You should probably go back and read my first entry on the subject. Then read your response. I think that’s where you went off track.”

    no, i read it again. i’m pretty sure i got it. not sure what you’re missing. oh yeah! i know. you think everything is an attack on white people.

    “When you cannot talk openly about a considered opinion without being labled “supremecist” or “racist” you know that it’s not you, it’s them.”

    calling you a supremacist and a racist is like calling john madden a football color man. it’s just what he is. you are a racist. if you have no problem with being a racist, don’t have a problem with being called what you are. or for having others walk away from you in disgust.

  • STM

    Glenn: “and we DON’T have Foster’s…”

    Glenn, I know the RL vs NFL thing sounds like a brag, but it’s not. I can tell you it’s been the subkect of many a pub argument here.

    We’re NOT better at nearly everything, we’re just different – despite our similarities.

    There’s no question NFL is a tough game. But the fitness/physical requirements are quite different. Sometimes the hits look harder in NFL, but there’s a lot less of ‘em.

    As for Australian football, thyat peculiarly Aussie game played by men in tightn shorts and sleevless tops, I’ll just say my youngest daughter has some nice handbags that match the outfits.

    Anyway, it’s a game played by the philistines in the heathen southern and western states.

    Please, mate, don’t take it as a brag. It’s only my opinion on one thing, and as you know, I consider Americans, Canadians, Brits and Kiwis all part of the family.

    You guys are the prodigal son that came home 60 or so years ago, bringing most of the quality food to the table. But we’re glad you did and none of us have forgotten.

    I hope you guys always remember who your real friends are, too.

  • zingzing

    “There’s no question NFL is a tough game. But the fitness/physical requirements are quite different. Sometimes the hits look harder in NFL, but there’s a lot less of ‘em.”

    here’s the thing though. because of the way that football is played, people were dying when there were no pads. most healthy human bones can only take a certain amount of pressure before they break, and there was something about football–the weight of the players on the lines, the speed of the players on the wings, etc–that was causing people to kill each other while playing the game.

    people still suffer horrific injuries, like kevin everett a couple of years ago. or the guy who’s shinbone came out at a 90 degree angle. but thanks to safety precautions, these have more to do with freak accidents and a combination of converging elements. (like helmet to helmet…)

    football players routinely suffer amputations and brain issues later in life, and their life expectancy is significantly lower than the general public. football is very violent.

    i don’t think that you can really make a strict comparison between the two just based on the harder hits. there, as you say, are vast differences in the way the games affect the human body. i don’t think your aussie bones are any more dense than our bones, so there must be something particularly dangerous about football’s impact on the human body if the players are forced, out of concern for their lives, to wear pads.

  • STM

    Actually, Foster’s IS American. The Foster brothers came to Oz in the late 1800s with a recipe for ice-cold lager. They did really well and then they sold it on to the Carlton brewery (probably for what was a considerable sum in those days), and thus missed out on years of fame and fortune through this country’s most imported beer.

    My understanding is they went back to the states and probably lived a comfortable retirement but no one really knos.

    On Foster’s: Most Aussies don’t drink it, believe it or not. It’s not great out of a can, but it’s a pretty good drop served as a draught beer on a very hot day and I used to drink it as did many of my mates out of the tap before Carlton came up with a slightly hoppier, more bitter beer called Victoria Bitter.

    I don’t mind some of the American boutique brews, though, although I’d rate beers like Bud and Coors in the can on the same level as canned Fosters.

  • STM

    Zing, RL players die and break bones too. They also wear pads. But they’re of the soft protective kind (not that soft though these days and generally worn on shoulders and chest), rather than those hard ones that can be used as offensive weapons in NFL.

    I make my decision based only on the fact a RL player generally plays the full 80 minutes, there are few stoppages, the speed of the game is amazing and they spend a lot of time getting the living sh.t smashed out of them on a level that’s not that different to NFL. The players as a rule aren’t quite as big as American footballers, especially the backs, but some of the forwards in the Aussie NRL are huge too.

    As for the pinpoint forward pass in NFL that leads to the best big hits, and the bone on bone crashes, RL players do exactly the same thing with the pinpoint kick.

    RL is very fast too, so if you get smashed it’s the combined speed that has the effect. I know we’ve had this discussion before …. but watch the two videos I’ve posted. It’s always nice to learn new stuff, anyhow, and while we watch NFL here, it’s unlikely you’d see much rugby league. The rugby I’ve seen on TV in the states is bEuropean Rugby Union – the different 15-man game.

    My views on this come from regularly watching both games of RL and NFL (although I don’t have the kind of understanding of NFL that an American has, although I do appreciate the supreme athleticism required).

    And like I say, this definitely ain’t a mine’s better than yours thing.

    They’re different games, but very similar in their strategic goal compared to 15-man rugby union, where the ball is always contestable at the tackle or the breakdown in play.

    That’s the big difference between the three.

    RL and NFL use a set of tackles (or downs as you call it) to move the ball up the field to get in the best attacking position to score and get the ball over the stripe.

    I loved the last Superbowl BTW. Pretty exciting scoring too. One of the touchdowns was as exciting a piece of footy as you’d see anywhere.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    ” After all, they are the engineers of the type of modern society that other races aspire to belong in.”

    Not really Dan. Our history as a species tells us that there has been a contribution by a variety of people and cultures to what has resulted in our modern society. Other people are contributing as we type today and affecting a change in the way we live.

    Most importantly, Whites (especially White Americans) tell everyone that they are the aspiration of all people. I am pretty certain (100% actually) that you have never heard anyone who is not White say that they aspire to be like Whites. It’s only your delusional White supremacist world view that informs you of that. People want to pursue their personal interests, period. That is human nature, not a White invention.

    I would ask you if you have real exposure to non White people? You seem so uncivilized, highly lacking in exposure let alone a basic knowledge of world history.

    I do however feel bad that everyone is jumping on you. I wish there were others who were honest enough to express your ignorant views so they can take some of the lumps for you. I applaud your tenacity. Bravo!

  • Zedd

    Glen,

    @239. I feel you, totally. How refreshing.

  • Clavos

    Compare Florida now to what it was thirty years ago. Is it more conservative now?

    Yes.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Clav,

    Florida north is still the bible belt I understand. But, I also understood that Ft Lauderdale are is an exception to the right-wing rule of the rest of Florida. ??

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Thank you handy guy. I will see if I get that channel.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Christine,

    Don’t look now but I think we (Italians) count as white. :-)

    (must be the whole sopranos fetish)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    I am pretty certain (100% actually) that you have never heard anyone who is not White say that they aspire to be like Whites.

    In the Philippines you can see 30-foot billboards advertising “skin-whitening cream” – they’re quite popular there, it seems…and it disgusts me. I’ve said to my wife several times that the people should be who and what they are, that they’re already a good people, and that they shouldn’t try to change themselves.

    But I also know that such an attitude is too deeply ingrained there – a Filipino who is darker is often assumed to be from out in the provinces and thus less educated (and so has a harder time finding work), whereas the television stars are almost all ‘whitened’.

    It’s really sad, a modern-day version of Chinese foot-binding in my opinion.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    But I also know that you’re not referring to the shade of one’s skin, but to the race itself…and other than individual exceptions, you are quite right.

  • Clavos

    Cindy,

    Florida north is still the bible belt I understand. But, I also understood that Ft Lauderdale are is an exception to the right-wing rule of the rest of Florida. ??

    Broward county IS, as I mentioned upthread, the Democrat stronghold in Florida, yes. Is it “liberal?” To some degree, of course — for example, the population of the town of Wilton Manors is now almost 100% gay, it’s entire town administration is gay.

    OTOH, there are large numbers of Latinos and Haitians in Broward as well. Both groups tend to be conservative; Latin America (and Haiti) is originally 100% Catholic (The influence of Spain and France of the 16th century). When Latinos and Haitians leave Catholicism for other religions, they tend toward the Fundamentalist ones such as Jehovah’s Witness, Church of God, etc.

    This conservativeness of the immigrants is the chief reason Florida continues to be a socially conservative state; one of the few still outlawing gay marriage, etc. Remember that most of our immigrants are here because they fled despotic regimes, many of them socialist (Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua). Not coincidentally, those three are the three largest Latino groups in Florida, followed by the Boricuas (Puerto Ricans), though they are congregating more in Central Florida than South Florida.

    The one Latino group not strongly represented here are the Mexicans, though there are colonies of them in the agricultural communities south of Miami and around Lake O.

    The Crackers remain a potent force in Tallahassee, but their strength, along with their numbers is waning, but their replacements are (for the most part) Latinos, not Anglos. Some (not all by a long shot, but especially the poor ones) Latinos (and Caribbean people) tend to vote Dem, but for economic reasons (they’re voting themselves money from the treasury), not because of their political ideology, which is deeply conservative.

    Most of Latin America’s money is in Miami banks. That money is conservative and is exerting an ever stronger influence on Florida politics, particularly on the Latino politicians’ campaign coffers.

    Florida may well have another conservative Latino Senator (Marco Rubio) in 2012, though he does face a formidable opponent in Charlie Crist (also conservative). One of those two is likely to replace (conservative) Mel Martinez.

    Bill Nelson, Florida’s Dem Senator is an anachronism, not least because he’s Anglo.

    Florida, particularly South Florida, is increasingly separating itself from mainstream America, and this trend is not likely to wind down any time soon.

    The influence of the foreigners is deep and growing. I see it as a very positive trend.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #248,

    Form of words, Clavos, only form of words; Of all people, you should know.

    And since when can’t I express my opinion in a free forum?

    So yes, you’ve all chickened out!

    There, I said it more plainly for you if my allusion somehow escaped your usually keen mind.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #254

    STM, what about lacrosse?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Glenn: Compare Florida now to what it was thirty years ago. Is it more conservative now?

    Clavos: Yes.

    I think this is a classic case of refusing to agree with the obvious just so you don’t have to agree with the other guy.

    Okay, Clavos. How about this from the 4/13/85 edition of the Gainesville Sun wherein a U.S. District Court judge required the state of Florida to submit a plan by 6/30/85 showing how Florida’s higher education system would be desegregated within the year?

    To back it up, here’s an abstract of NBC news from 4/7/70 (courtesy of the Vanderbilt news archive) showing how resistant Florida was to integration.

    Looks like conservative Miami-Dade county has a pit-bull ban – are you sure that’s more conservative than 30 years ago?

    Then there’s the Florida Organic Growers who work to improve the quality of life for southern organic farmers and farm workers – whoo hoo! Don’t get much bluer than that! (and I doubt they were around 30 years ago)

    Let’s not forget Equality Florida, a statewide education and advocacy organization dedicated to eliminating discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, gender and class. The organization reaches over 50,000 Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Supportive (GLBTS) households in Florida, making it one of largest civil rights groups working at the state level.

    As of 2008, Florida now allows homosexuals to adopt children – gee, how’s that compare to 1964 anti-gay pamphlet put out by the Florida Legislative Investigation Committee led by a senator?

    Last year Florida adopted an amendment banning same-sex marriage – but would that have been ‘necessary’ 30 years ago? Watch, Clavos, and within ten years you’ll see it legalized in Florida, too.

    And in 2007 Florida REPUBLICAN Governor Charlie Crist signed three Executive Orders on July 13th, establishing a multi-pronged strategy to reduce the state’s greenhouse gas emissions. The Orders set statewide greenhouse gas emissions targets and call for increased energy efficiency, an increased use of clean, renewable energy sources and regulation of vehicle tailpipe emissions.

    And in 2008 he met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. The topic for their meeting in the Ritz-Carlton in South Beach? Global warming.

    Desegregation, organic farming, LGBT equality, global warming…these sure sound like LIBERAL causes to me!

    So…how exactly are you going to ‘prove’ that Florida is somehow MORE conservative now than 30 years ago? Hm? Betcha don’t even try….

    Clavos, the progression from conservative to liberal values is a human sociological fact. It happened but slowly for untold thousands of years – and there were certainly many regressions along the way – but barring major catastrophe or war, the progression will continue, and will do so all the more quickly now thanks to the media and particularly the internet.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn, maybe you can outrun your racism – but it does not look like you will outrun this comment thread. Oh yeah, there are a couple of on-point comments I addressed to you on here, if you care to look (you’ll have to put the Foster’s down, though).

  • Clavos

    Glenn, you’re nothing if not reliably obfuscatory, but you’ve never before introduced more than one strawman in a single comment (I think).

    Your original point talked of a thirty year time frame; Florida desegregated in the sixties, nearly fifty years ago, your 1983 Gainesville Sun reference is to a continuation of that process, not an initiation of it. My reply to Cindy was in the context of the thirty year parameter. Most of what could be termed liberal in Florida came about in the sixties, prior to most of the ongoing massive immigration of Latinos and people from the Caribbean. There is also another rapidly growing group of conservative immigrants which I forgot to mention earlier: South Florida is now host to the largest enclave of Russians in the USA, a trend which is still accelerating, though at present they number only in the tens of thousands. It won’t be long before Miami-Dade has a Russian politician, I’m sure.

    Ditto the 1964 pamphlet — 45 years ago and that whole nascent movement, spearheaded by Anita Bryant, was rightfully quashed in short order — more than forty years ago.

    Organic gardening and global warming are liberal issues??? You’re kidding, right? Is not the CEO of Whole Foods being excoriated by liberals as we speak for his conservative views? Is not John McCain a vocal proponent of mitigating global warming?

    Pit bulls are a political issue??? Oh, please!

    Strawmen, Glenn, strawmen.

    The people (in fact, many of the same people who voted for Obama) voted against legalizing gay marriage, Glenn, and it is the people to whom I refer in my reply to Cindy citing the ongoing conservatism of the state

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Clavos did you get what I sent you?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos #274 – he thinks global warming is not a ‘liberal issue’.

    I think that says a great deal…and (just like I’m saving his and Dave’s refusal to believe poll numbers) I’m saving that for future reference.

  • Doug Hunter

    “In the Philippines you can see 30-foot billboards advertising ‘skin-whitening cream'”

    Is that anything like self tanner or suntan lotion? I think alot of people want what they don’t have. My wife has the most beautiful curly hair that naturally forms wonderful ringlets. Other people spend gobs of money and time to make their hair look like hers for one night. She, on the other hand, enjoys straightening hers despite my protestation.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    For Dave –

    Here’s a picture from a Tea Party…and a guy on a bicycle holding up a cardboard sign saying, “This sign is the brownest thing on the entire block”. Just thought you’d like to see it….

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    I agree – shocking, I know, but I do. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and familiarity breeds contempt. Heck, many’s the time I wish my Irish blood would let me tan like my sons can.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    Foster’s is actually American? That explains it. Just another company using the image of Australia to sell their product, like the not-Australian-at-all Subaru…but at least Subarus are decent cars.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    In all honesty I’ve always wondered what it is between blacks and Jews in America. I mean, it’s not like ethnic groups have ever needed an excuse to hate Jews…but they always have some kind of rationalization. What’s the issues of both sides on this?

    Also, I would disagree with you that Africans and other blacks outside the U.S. look down on American blacks. One need only to point at the celebrations when Obama was elected.

    No offense, but what other points did I miss?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m gonna reopen a can of worms and return to Dan’s last comment. Zedd was right when she called him brave.

    Food for thought. How different is what Dan had said, about “saving the white race” from the way that the ancient Greeks, or the Romans for that matter, thought of themselves (vis-a-vis “the barbarians” and other cultures}. And if it isn’t that different as regards to content, than why is it – I’m posing the question – Dan’s views of “the white race” are so much more objectionable in this day and age than the views of the ancients?

    After all, Dan didn’t quite make (yet) the great leap and joined the Hitler camp. He is not talking about exterminating nonwhites, only about preserving “the purity of the white race.”

    So what’s the big hoopla?

    (A rhetorical question, if I may add.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I would disagree with you that Africans and other blacks outside the U.S. look down on American blacks. One need only to point at the celebrations when Obama was elected.”

    They tend to, Glenn. And Obama’s not the most fortunate example because he’s only a first-generation African American.

  • Clavos

    Living where I do, I know and interact with a lot of Jamaicans and others from the Caribbean. For the most part, they are pretty contemptuous of American Blacks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes. They either fail to appreciate, or don’t buy into, the “victim mentality.” (I should say, the residual effects of slavery.)

  • Clavos

    Bingo, Roger, that’s it.

    And yet, ironically, the Caribbean Blacks all were slaves as well.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, one reason that blacks have a grudge against jews is that jews had come to dominate the US slave trade by the 1840s or so and played a large role in its perpetuation in the 1800s beyond where the founding fathers had expected it to fail as an economically viable institution.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed. I can almost intuit the reasons for this difference, but it’s kind of hard to articulate.

    It may have to do something with the Caribbean Blacks “making a break,” whereas the African-Americans feel they’re entitled (since it’s their country as well).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know about that, Dave. That presupposes a knowledge of history. Do you suppose these stories were transmitted from generation to generation? In any case, I happen to think that antisemitism on the part of the American blacks is greatly exaggerated. If anything, it operates only on the radical fringes.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos, Roger, and Ruvy –

    Okay, then I’m wrong about the overall opinion of the world’s blacks towards American blacks, and you’ve helped diminish my ignorance – and I do appreciate the help on understanding the point.

    In all sincerity, thanks –
    Glenn

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    285

    “Victim mentality” (I could guess your response. Would it be their perspective you’re guessing at? Just noting.)

    “the residual effects of slavery”

    They were also slaves brought over by colonialists and are descended from Africans.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I used it in quotation marks, Cindy, For that reason. And only for the purpose of communicating with Clavos. So yes, it was an unfortunate shorthand, but this wasn’t the time to express it exactly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    Please don’t take my comments as “criticism,” not even as “constructive criticism.” All we’re doing is communicating.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    I think that such was the perception of blacks, but While acknowledging Jewish participation in slavery, scholars reject allegations that Jews dominated the slave trade in Medieval Europe, Africa, and/or the Americas; Jews were no more or less involved in the slave trade than any other ethno-cultural or national group.”

    But that doesn’t mean they’re squeaky-clean, of course. Selah Sassoon (yes, of the hair-care line), fled Baghdad and set up shop in Bombay. Soon after, the British government granted Sassoon “monopoly rights” to all manufacture of cotton goods, silk and most important of all – Opium. The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1905, states that Sassoon expanded his opium trade into China and Japan. He placed his eight sons in charge of the various major opium exchanges in China.

    And that’s where the Forbes (that conservative family of whom John Kerry is actually a descendant) and the Delanos (FDR’s maternal grandpa) and the Churchills (yes, those Churchills) made their fortunes.

    For Ruvy – I think it’s interesting that Sir Albert Abdullah David Sassoon was named ‘Abdullah’. I thought that was a strictly Sunni name (I understand the Shi’a will not name their children ‘Abdullah’ (who was the Sunni military leader who killed the 72 Shi’a martyrs towards the end of the struggle to succeed Mohammed after his death)).

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The last few comments, particularly Dave’s #287, have made it even crystaller clear to me that the main reason you Yanks’re still having this debate is because you just can’t let go of What Happened Hundreds of Years Ago.

    Seriously, you’re as bad as the Irish.

    :-)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Rog –

    When I say ‘constructive criticism’, I mean that in the same way a writer truly wants to hear criticism of his work – and I think you know what I mean. That’s why I’m grateful for it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But the Irish, Dreadful, may have a better cause. They didn’t want to be annexed by the British Empire. And they valued their distinct culture, no?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Fine, Glenn. Just wanted to make clear that “criticism” is not the spirit behind my comments. If anything, I’m after a dialogue.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger, they still dwell – particularly in the north – on events that took place between around 1650 and 1920; just as Americans tend to dwell on events that took place between 1860 and 1964.

    In both cases, the rest of the world has moved far, far on.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    The only reason I note such things, Roger, is to mark my own non-complicity in accepting assumptions about how other people presumably feel. My own guesses are wrong enough.

    (Maybe the people who Clav talked to are not representative of Caribbean Islanders, but of Caribbean ex-pats. Or maybe they are. Maybe, they identify with the dominator. Maybe they have enough money so they’d kick some-one lower –like you were saying. Maybe they have no money and their faith is in the illusion of the American meritocracy. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Just noting. I prefer to hear what they believe from them.)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    STM, what about lacrosse?

    Lacrosse? You’ve gotta be kidding.

    I did a bit of poking around, and insurance companies apparently say that the most dangerous sport in terms of accident/injury claims per year is rugby. They didn’t differentiate between league and union, though, and how much that has to do with the absence of padding when compared to American football is anyone’s guess.

    However, neither rugby nor American football is the most dangerous sport in terms of injuries and/or deaths.

    Wanna guess what is?

    (Clav probably knows.)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Also, I would disagree with you that Africans and other blacks outside the U.S. look down on American blacks. One need only to point at the celebrations when Obama was elected.

    Obama is a true AFRICAN-AMERICAN, as opposed to Jeremiah Wright, whose ancestors arrived in America in chains and hate white people – the ones who persecuted his ancestors and enslaved them. So, in the eyes of Africans from Africa, literally one of their own was elected president. In addition, I would consider the comments of others who have jumped in, like Clavos (#s 284, 286) and Roger (#s 285, 288). All their comments are valid as well.

    What’s the issues of both sides on this?

    There’s Dave’s point in comment #287, a valid but unpleasant one to acknowledge. Then there are the relations between Jews and American blacks with respect to Jews lending money to blacks when others didn’t. This became an issue of resentment. Finally, the issue of the violence Jews suffered when blacks moved into Jewish neighborhoods.

    …but what other points did I miss?

    But you missed the big issue I raised in comment #44 – the differences between Ethiopian Jews in Israel (who are blacks) and American blacks – the lack of hostility, etc. because whites had not persecuted them – black Christians had.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ve had many similar experiences, Cindy, such as Clavos’s. (In fact, I made mention of this earlier up the thread.) Both with the Carribean people and from the Africa proper (like Ghana), in New York and in California.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I think disconnecting the past from the present is misguided. It is another (maybe milder) suggestion that slavery ended then everything became ‘fine’ at some point. The past is not disposable–what went before has everything to do with what is happening now.

    If we don’t understand the past, we don’t understand why we believe what we do now.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You don’t mean bull fighting?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    Is it jai-alai?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Oh. bullfighting. I should have known. Grrr…three things wrong on the same day. Maybe I should take my meds….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    For Ruvy – I think it’s interesting that Sir Albert Abdullah David Sassoon was named ‘Abdullah’.

    What your comment points up, DD, more than anything else, is what a Dreadfully small world it is. Roosevelts, Forbes’and all sorts of other “rewspectable” WASP types dirtying their hands hustlings chained blacks from one place to another, along with those nasty, grubby Joos.

    As for the Sassoons, what you fail to realize is that they lived among Arabs for many centuries, and just as Jews took names like Alexander and Lysander living among Greeks, Kevin, Kyle and Ronald, living among Christians, they also took names like MaHmoud and Abdullah, living among Arabs.

    By the way, the proper pronunciation of the name Sassoon is sassón, and means joy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No, Glenn, it’s neither jai alai nor bullfighting.

    Or bullriding, for that matter.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t favor such disconnecting, but there remains the existential dilemma. African-Americans no doubt feel this is their country, no less so than the whites think it’s theirs. And they have bought in, by and large, into the American value system; at least I believe they have. So in that case, one must somehow be able to reconcile one’s history and their past with the present and the future.

    So what do you think?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    215 –

    Dane,

    Saving the white race isn’t so much a point of contention to me, as something I’m not very interested in doing. I think the white race has an inculcated dominator mentality that isn’t a very helpful way to live, for anyone–itself included.

    However, I am not in favor of shutting you or anyone else) up. (can’t find the comment number where you said, it’s not okay for you to talk)

    I hope we can continue a dialogue. I hope we are tough enough to bear under getting slugged once in awhile. :-) I also hope you don’t take anything I have said as a call for your silence–quite the contrary.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy @ #308: that was Glenn, not me.

    Anyway, in a nutshell, the historical hierarchy of downward-shitting seems to be as follows:

    White aristocrats: We’re better than everyone else.
    Rich white non-aristocrats: Well, at least we’re not poor.
    Poor whites: At least we’re not black.
    Caribbean blacks: At least we’re not American blacks.
    American blacks: At least we’re not Jewish.

    Jews: At least we’re not gentiles.

    (And so the cycle continues…)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    make that Dan, not Dane.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Did I say Great Dane?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    That, sir, is what I like to hear – things I didn’t know and should have realized!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There you go, Dreadful. It’s the chain of being.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #316: Pun intended?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m going to reiterate my #282, Cindy, because I think it’s pertinent:

    “I’m gonna reopen a can of worms and return to Dan’s last comment. Zedd was right when she called him brave.

    Food for thought. How different is what Dan had said, about ‘saving the white race’ from the way that the ancient Greeks, or the Romans for that matter, thought of themselves (vis-a-vis ‘the barbarians’ and other cultures}. And if it isn’t that different as regards to content, than why is it – I’m posing the question – Dan’s views of ‘the white race’ are so much more objectionable in this day and age than the views of the ancients?

    After all, Dan didn’t quite make (yet) the great leap and joined the Hitler camp. He is not talking about exterminating nonwhites, only about preserving ‘the purity of the white race.’

    So what’s the big hoopla?

    (A rhetorical question, if I may add.)”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    310 – Roger, I will give you an excellent documentary called Traces of the Trade about a white American family who finally acknowledged that their fathers and grandfathers were the largest slave trading family in the US. They eventually discovered they needed to stop talking to whites (including each other) about what this meant to blacks and finally started a dialogue with the people this actually affected–from their POV.

    It gave me new insight.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why not? I’ll take credit whenever I can.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Cindy. Will look at it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #299,

    At least that’s not the case for the Irish-Americans, not in my experience.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Gentlemen,

    Ruvy @ #308: that was Glenn, not me.

    I stand corrected. A thousand pardons. It will never happen again – until the next time it does….

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    269-

    Just found this explanation. Thanks, Clav. (probably should have read the thread from where I left off last, but I started at the end and went wandering around instead)

    So yes, Broward County, where I am going, is the most left-wing. I won’t be in the bible belt there. I’m entirely used to being around right-wing people, living as I do in the red county that crowns a blue state. It will be an improvement.

  • Doug Hunter

    Cindy #324

    We’re not all bad (right wing people). Where I live in an affluent rural area in Texas we already have alot of what I listed in my ideal scenario on the other thread. My parents didn’t own a key to their front door or ever lock it for the last 20 years. I have the same priviledge, even though I at least know where my key is I never use it even when we leave on vacation. Family and community is big here and people are polite with southern hospitality. We didn’t get the memo about how racist us hicks is sposed to be and it’s exceptionally rare to see a confederate flag anywhere

    We have great community services on top of those provided by the government with a group delivering free meals to anyone who needs them (and they’re good) at little or no cost and a free service that basically works as a taxi for the elderly shuffling you whereever you want to go (usually Walmart it seems) There is no homelessness, full employment, and poverty only visible on the extremes (physical or mental issues or drug addicts). Despite the amount of money around, the cost of living is still extremely low meaning you can live well and qualify for adequate government services at every income level. County college is basically free for kids who graduate here and has transfer programs out to good 4 year schools. The one issue that sticks out is the treatment and living conditions of some illegal immigrants that work on the horse ranches about.

    It’s not utopia, but it’s alot closer than you might think. It’s also one of the reddest areas in the country.

  • Clavos

    Jet #275:

    Not yet.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    No homelessness, full employment, poverty visible only on the extremes, residents can “qualify for adequate government services at every income level, free meals (at little or no cost) to anyone who needs them, basically-free county college.

    Doug, if it was a liberal that made these claims, would you be skeptical? I think you would – and so would I.

    There is only one factor that keeps me from asking what county you live in – your privacy – because I learned the hard way a long time ago that one should not use their real name in a public forum online, and I’m assuming that yours is your real name. Please do not mention your county – but I’d like to know which state you’re from so I can verify your claims. I can do this safely for you because yours is a fairly common name whereas mine is unique in all the internet (which is why I don’t use my real name). Google my name and one can unerringly find my address, phone number, all tax information (except (hopefully) my SSN). So please be careful with your personal information – it’s not as safe as you feel your house to be.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Doug, if it was a liberal that made these claims, would you be skeptical?”

    Not really. I’m sure there are pockets and communities like this all over the country (probably more of them in blue states). My wife’s family grew up in the craphole that was Camden, NJ yet move just a few miles south into rural south Jersey and they had what appeared outwardly to be something similiar to what we have here. I’ve also lived in placed where poverty and crime were rampant.

    In full disclosure I must admit that I was born with a very positive outlook on life. Often what other people feel entitled to or take for granted I view as a nice priviledge. I’m probably the only person ever to walk into a McDonald’s and marvel over how in the hell I can get a Double Cheeseburger with meat, lettuce, tomatoes, onions, cheese, bun, sauce, plus napkins and an air conditioned place to eat it and a complimentary cup of clean ice water and a sanitary restroom all for just 99 cents. How much of the population was starving just 100 years ago and would give everything for a cheeseburger? How many people today can’t get clean water, or ice, or air conditioning or have access to proper sewage and sanitation? Do you not recognize how easy we have it? If you can’t earn the 99 cents it take I bet 50% of the population would buy you one if you’d just ask. I know I would.

    So while you might see an exploitive corporation fattening and killing our population while paying a ‘non-living’ wage, I see an almost miraculously efficient food distribution system that gives you 2/3 of the necessities of life for virtually nothing.

    Wow, now who has ADD?

  • Doug Hunter

    Glenn,

    I think the homeless flock towards cities where everything is closer to walking distance and their are designated shelters. In the country the community might sort of guilt you into taking care of your own rather than put them out on the streets.

    There’s a guy here who got hit by a car when he was a child and suffered brain damage. His family is not wealthy but the $1000 or so he gets as disabled from the government is plenty when unsubsidized 2BR houses and apartments can be had for $400-500 (there are also plenty of subsidized ones although he doesn’t use one) He is called ‘walking Chuck’ by the entire community and is the closest to homeless we have. He has a house but he prefers to walk on the roadside all day from sunup to sundown. He has limited mental capacity but he knows just where the beer store (12 miles away is) and I and others will often see him walking and give him a ride back and forth. Other than that, I honestly know of no one.

  • zingzing

    “No homelessness, full employment, poverty visible only on the extremes, residents can “qualify for adequate government services at every income level, free meals (at little or no cost) to anyone who needs them, basically-free county college.”

    sounds like the socialist dream.

  • Doug Hunter

    “sounds like the socialist dream.”

    Nothing wrong with that. The government should ensure all citizens have the BASIC necessities of life (and except certain healthcare they largely already do)

    Where we have problems it’s the people within it, not the system, that is broken. If people would take responsibility for their children, not become drug addicts, and not commit crimes we’d eliminate the need for a large percentage of services and, yes, we could actually expand the range of services without putting more strain on the system. Where education is ‘bad’ it has little to do with funding and lots to do with the parents and community that let it get that way.

    We have trickle down economics, you guys have trickle down responsibility.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re an odd cat, Mr. Hunter. We’re gonna have to discuss it at length some day.

  • Doug Hunter

    Very True

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You do know, of course, that the notion of personal responsibility is perhaps the most common retort on the part of the conservatives: and the view ordinarily is that we are responsible for our lot, no one else is. Consequently, all the poverty and the misery we see around us – especially in such a country as the good old US of A – in, in a sense, inexcusable, and can therefore be laid at the feet of the poor.

    That’s the crude version, and I’m certainly not going to accuse you of being crude. So this is just for the openers.

    We shall pick it up, I’m certain, tomorrow perhaps.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    I notice you didn’t say which state.

    If I know which state, then it’s fairly easy – if involved – matter for me to look for the very best county in all that state (not because I think that might be your county, but because that will be the most likely to back up (or detract from) your claims in terms of unemployment, poverty, educational opportunities, crime, etc.

    Care to mention which state? Or will you simply make claims that you will not (and we cannot) verify? Remember, Doug – I work with facts, evidence, proof.

    If you’re right – if it’s even close to as good as you say it is – the numbers will show it and I’ll admit it freely and publicly (pride is not that big a deal to me). But if not, the numbers will show that, too.

    Facts, evidence, proof – is it really a bad thing to ask for these?

  • Doug Hunter

    Depending on what you consider responsible some decent percent of the population is already living that way. How much additional burden and responsibility should they bear because other people can’t handle the same level of freedom? Just how efficient and effective do you think the government is at changing the culture and attitudes of people anyway?

    I’m not talking about disabled and the truly needy here, I’m talking about those problems created when people can’t handle freedom (i.e. drugs, unwanted children, crime). Would you take freedom away from everyone to ensure that it could not be abused by the few?

  • Zedd

    Glen,

    Yes. I wasn’t referring to complexion. Many if not most Whites like tan skin and multitudes of them tan, some at the risk of contracting a serious disease. I wouldn’t say that it’s because they don’t want to be White. They just like how they look when they are darker. Many Asians, Blacks, Indians and other darker people use skin lighteners. It’s not about race as you said. Some dark people sit in the sun to even their complexion too. I get all blotchy so I don’t do it but my sister looks amazing when she is darker. She gets all bronzey and seems to glow.

    Also, I guess the entire race thing can get a little vague when you start analysing it. I mean would a person from a different planet, after seeing the different races categorize an dark Italian and a fair Scandinavian type as being of the same race? Both consider themselves to be White. Would the alien look at a really black person from Sudan and me and say we are of the same race, probably not. They may be tall, lean and black and I’m short, highly curved and caramel.

    Race is weird thing.

  • Doug Hunter

    Sorry Glenn, I thought I had mentioned my state. It’s Texas, north Denton / southern Grayson county. I was also speaking of my local communities not the entire area. I’m certain Denton city has more unemployment and crime and real poverty than my little area. People probably lock their doors there.

  • Dan

    zing #225

    OK, I see now where we went off the rail.

    You follow me so far about the ad having a positive portrayal of the black guy (handsome, athletic, helpful, sensitive), and the negative portrayal of the white guy (needy, uncertain, misguided). But the kicker is when the ad is re-cut for radio. Without the video the black guys voice is changed from a more articulate racially ambiguous voice to a somewhat exaggerated but friendly unambiguous black street voice.

    The gratuitous switching of the voices was the point. I apologize for my part in the confusion.

    Roger #241

    What I mean is if you keep your world view maleable, and apart from your sense of self esteem, then their is no truth you need to fear.

    “calling you a supremacist and a racist is like calling john madden a football color man. it’s just what he is. you are a racist. if you have no problem with being a racist, don’t have a problem with being called what you are. or for having others walk away from you in disgust.”—zing #256

    I guess if the people you attempt to reason with continually call you a name, you might as well wear it. Then, possibly, by being the most honest, fair, and reasoned racist you can be, perhaps the insult will lose some punch.

    Seriously though, the meltdown in civility works for both of us. You get to end the discussion on a superior moral high, and I get the signal that reasoned debate is over.

    Were still good, right?

    “Our history as a species tells us that there has been a contribution by a variety of people and cultures to what has resulted in our modern society.”—Zedd

    I’m not taking away from the achievements. Just acknowledging that it was a white nation collectively, white men in particular, (now demonized) who broke the traditional world mold of tribal exclusion to hold the door open.

    “I am pretty certain (100% actually) that you have never heard anyone who is not White say that they aspire to be like Whites. It’s only your delusional White supremacist world view that informs you of that.”

    That is not what I meant to say. But I don’t think it would be a bad thing either. Especially if they were to adopt the notion of losing their racial consciousness and eternal struggle for group advantage the way whites attempt/are forced to do.

    “I would ask you if you have real exposure to non White people? You seem so uncivilized, highly lacking in exposure let alone a basic knowledge of world history.”

    Does cornhole count?

    “I do however feel bad that everyone is jumping on you. I wish there were others who were honest enough to express your ignorant views so they can take some of the lumps for you. I applaud your tenacity. Bravo!”

    Thanks, I’ll be allright. I want to say that I return the compliment. Your free wheeling racist candor provides an excellent opportunity to demonstrate the sharp contrast against the muzzle liberal race Victorians have placed on any expressions of white self interest or dissatisfaction with diversity.

    I think the real hoot of it is, (if I’m not mistaken) you are also an immigrant. Nothing illustrates the absurdity of the racial paradigm we find ourselves in, than when someone imposes themselves for dinner, then complains about the food.

    “After all, Dan didn’t quite make (yet) the great leap and joined the Hitler camp. He is not talking about exterminating nonwhites, only about preserving “the purity of the white race.”—Roger

    To be fair Roger, I didn’t use the word “purity”. And I was only answering the question “should the white race be saved”. To answer that negatively could seem to construe that one was for the extermination of whites. It seems an odd question.

    “Saving the white race isn’t so much a point of contention to me, as something I’m not very interested in doing. I think the white race has an inculcated dominator mentality that isn’t a very helpful way to live, for anyone–itself included.”—Cindy

    If it is such a hell to live with whites, why are non-whites so eager to do it. Seriously, where does this antipathy come from? Pretty alarming view you have there.

    Considering that whites who might like to be segregated are forced to integrate it doesn’t seem like you’ll be seeing the end of us any time soon or that non-whites want to. Maybe it’s one of those ‘can’t live with them, can’t live without them’ enigmas.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    Lets all be honest. Chances are, your ancestors were not the aristocracy in Europe. They more than likely would have made Eliza Doolittle seem like Marie Antoinette, either surviving in the rat infested, disease ridden, urine covered cities streets of Europe not too long ago or as the peasantry (not the most hygienic, literate lot).

    I don’t say this to be controversial or rude but to point out that most people who espouse your ideals is if they are members of this elite set really just jumped on the bandwagon. Their complexion saved them and when they say WE are the foundation from which blah blah blah. It’s not really WE. They are the welfare recipients if you will of the White get out of jail card. Talk about affirmative action. So calm down.

  • Zedd

    Dan

    “I’m not taking away from the achievements. Just acknowledging that it was a white nation collectively, white men in particular, (now demonized) who broke the traditional world mold of tribal exclusion to hold the door open.”

    I don’t understand what you mean by this.

    I think you miss that democracy wouldn’t be as it is without Gandhi and people like MLK. You do realise that America was a lying, hypocritical nation with an evil system until African Americans helped it to become a democracy?

  • zingzing

    doug: “If people would take responsibility for their children, not become drug addicts, and not commit crimes we’d eliminate the need for a large percentage of services and, yes, we could actually expand the range of services without putting more strain on the system.”

    dream the impossible dream.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    How does the reference to the Romans grab you, Dan? Are you thinking of “the white race” along the lines that, say, the Romans regarded themselves at the height of their Empire.

    I’d like to get a clearer understanding. The notion of “race consciousness” is somewhat elusive for me. How extensive must it be to include the entire “race,” which is to say – the good, the bad, and the indifferent.

    In short, what I’d rather argue that you want to hold such a comprehensive view, why not think of “human consciousness” as such, to include all of humanity irrespective of race. Otherwise, one is forced to draw perhaps an artificial line of demarcation – more artificial, I’d think, than we do when it comes to such things as nationality, ethnic background, common language and culture.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why, zing? Is it such an impossible suggestion? Doesn’t seem like asking too much. Or are you suggesting perhaps that these ailments are here to stay and our situation is beyond repair?

  • Zedd

    “eternal struggle for group advantage”

    No comprende. Weird actually. Who does that? Creepy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I do agree with #344. It’s a cavemen’s mentality. Not to mention the notion of affiliation based purely on the skin color. I would have thought we’ve outgrown that. And if and when situation becomes dire again, there are groups that are more likely to be formed along some other, more relevant (to the situation) criteria.

    I’m trying to imagine what kind of affinity would the French aristocracy feel towards the French peasants or the bourgeoisie. None, probably.

  • Zedd

    Dan you’ll enjoy this. It’s amazing!

  • zingzing

    dan: “I guess if the people you attempt to reason with continually call you a name, you might as well wear it. Then, possibly, by being the most honest, fair, and reasoned racist you can be, perhaps the insult will lose some punch.”

    a racist is a racist is a racist. if you’re happy with it, good for you. but i’m not.

    “Seriously though, the meltdown in civility works for both of us. You get to end the discussion on a superior moral high, and I get the signal that reasoned debate is over.”

    i just don’t like racism. doesn’t mean anything ends. it just means i’m a little perturbed that you actually ended up being what you sounded like. i don’t think i can turn you away from any of your opinions, and what’s the point of having an argument is you can’t do that? i like winning. occasionally, someone turns me away from my point of view, but i’ll be damned if you do that.

    “Were still good, right?”

    not really. i think you’re the problem with the white race, while you think you’re a solution. i say, “why is there this problem,” and you say, “why is there this problem,” and we’re talking about the same thing, but thinking in complete opposites. your view of history is twisted and strange to me. i can only imagine what you think of the present.

    i’m not saying i won’t speak to you, but we will never agree as long as you think the way you do and i think the way i do.

    “”You follow me so far about the ad having a positive portrayal of the black guy (handsome, athletic, helpful, sensitive), and the negative portrayal of the white guy (needy, uncertain, misguided). But the kicker is when the ad is re-cut for radio. Without the video the black guys voice is changed from a more articulate racially ambiguous voice to a somewhat exaggerated but friendly unambiguous black street voice.”

    that’s where the humor comes from. if you couldn’t tell (on the radio commercial) the other guy’s race, you couldn’t tell what stereotype they’re playing off. it’s a bit of dark humor, but whatever. funny is funny.

    and i don’t think it’s an absolutely positive or negative portrayal of either the black or white person. they’re working on stereotypes, which are obviously both false and true at the same time. the black man looks like a horny bastard, but has a heart, the white man looks rich and prosperous, but is a horny bastard. it’s an even give and take. stereotypes. they work both for and against us. that’s why they exist.

  • zingzing

    roger: “Why, zing? Is it such an impossible suggestion? Doesn’t seem like asking too much. Or are you suggesting perhaps that these ailments are here to stay and our situation is beyond repair?”

    no, it’s not impossible on a personal level. but to expect it of everyone else is to believe the best of everyone. man may be basically good, but that doesn’t mean every individual is. there are bad people. always have been, always will be.

    you’re talking about utopia, and while “dream the impossible dream” was written for “man of la mancha,” about don quixote, i think you might find like “a man for all seasons,” about thomas more, a little more to your taste.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    zing, it’s a matter of degrees, no? If Dan happens to believe the whites, as a gene pool, are superior – that’s one view. But similar views abound, we both know, on a more parochial level.

  • zingzing

    ahem. bam, wigga!

  • zingzing

    ah, shit, man, you fucked up my shit.

    dan’s view is a view, but it’s a view from 6 feet under.

  • Zedd

    I can just see myself collaborating with some hood rat, crackhead (who happens to be Black) on how to gain dominance over all of the other races. Muwahahahaah. He he.

    I mean really.

  • Doug Hunter

    Zing,

    A right wing dreamer… I like that.

    I would like you to consider one thing. I know this board is focused on politics and we get wrapped up in it sometimes, but there is more to life out there. The federal government is not the only actor in society. Families, religious and secular organization, city and state governments, and just general collective consciousness and culture shape much more of our lives than the federal government itself.

    I’d argue that the federal government is a reflection of us and generally we change it rather than the other way around. In effect, all change starts at the individual, family, and community level.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But how different is it, really, from the notion(s) of tribal supremacy? At least the movement is in the right directly – towards inclusion rather than exclusion. With lack, we’ll soon have Dan embrace the whole of humanity, and we shall all live happily ever after.

    As to your other point, perhaps you’re exaggerating the extent of the malaise. If Doug is talking only about a relatively small segment of the population – let’s call it a “welfare society,” for discussion purposes, though I know Cindy will give me hell – then perhaps all that is quite reversible. For indeed, just as we have created such a “society,” we can also undo it. I don’t believe it’s a Quixotic task.

  • zingzing

    roger: “I don’t believe it’s a Quixotic task.”

    welcome, quixote, may your quest be fruitful.

  • Zedd

    Well better say goodnight OR am I working on my plot for THE eternal struggle for group AD VAN TAGE. Muhwahaaahahaahahah (“advantage” must be read in an undiscernable accent).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So you’re perfectly willing to live with a situation where a good proportion of the population is “dysfunctional”?

    And you’d say that we, as a country, are doing well?

  • Zedd

    You break it. You pay for it. Dan.

  • zingzing

    doug. it’s true that the fed gov’t isn’t the only thing out there. never said it was. i live my life almost completely the same way i did when bush was in office. i’m happy, for a lot of reasons, that he’s no longer there, and obama is, but it doesn’t really affect my life that much. it matters to others around me more than it does to me, and that’s why i care.

    city (and by extension, because ny state is such a bitch to nyc,) gov’t affects me far more. the price of a subway ticket just went up by 25c for a single ride, while the price of a monthly pass has gone from $72 to $89 in under a year. cigs just went up $4/pack above what they were in this state–and they connected the tax to child healthcare. it’s hard to not feel like an asshole if you bitch about giving $4 a pack to children’s health, even though you secretly bitch about it every time.

    beyond that, there’s so much of life that gov’t and politics never have an effect on. politics is just a wonderful thing to argue about.

  • zingzing

    roger: “So you’re perfectly willing to live with a situation where a good proportion of the population is “dysfunctional”?”

    i am living in one. i can wish it was better, i can try to work towards something better, but i (i) can’t change it.

    “And you’d say that we, as a country, are doing well?”

    “well” is relative. and yes, we’re doing relatively well.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Argument just for the hell of it? Why bother?
    I’d think of a better way to spend the time, especially if the subject matter is not my concern.

    Let’s talk about literature then.

  • zingzing

    roger: “Argument just for the hell of it? Why bother?”

    you’re kidding. i love arguing. why are you here, if not for an argument? abuse? (catch the reference…)

    “Let’s talk about literature then.”

    no! i have read some good ones lately. but i won’t tell you which.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing, I would hope that “doing well” would go beyond perpetuating a cycle of dependence. Don’t you think human lives are more important in the long run than just keeping their physical needs met?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Then you’re reading me all wrong. I’d like to believe that your search ain’t over, than you haven’t got all the answers, that you’re looking to improving your understanding.

    I won’t use the term “truth.”

  • zingzing

    “Don’t you think human lives are more important in the long run than just keeping their physical needs met?”

    has that physical need ever been met on a global scale? we all type away on our computers blah blah blah while a majority of people in the world have no conception of this space. they want for these “physical needs,” they want for education, they want for clean water to drink, they want for food to survive. they have flies crawling on their face and they don’t care. (this is an infomercial.)

    human lives have a long way to go until physical needs are met.

    maybe i’m a cynic, but i don’t think we’re there yet.

  • zingzing

    “I’d like to believe that your search ain’t over, than you haven’t got all the answers, that you’re looking to improving your understanding.”

    i’m young yet.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Forgot another important thing: that you sway your BC colleagues to a more enlightened view, if you’re convicted that such is the case. So “winning the argument” ain’t gonna do it. Winning the heart will.

  • Dan

    “that’s where the humor comes from. if you couldn’t tell (on the radio commercial) the other guy’s race, you couldn’t tell what stereotype they’re playing off. it’s a bit of dark humor, but whatever. funny is funny.”

    But you can tell (on the radio commercial) that’s the point. The producers wanted the listeners to know the black guy was black. And they’re not “playing off of stereotypes” they are promoting them. Negative ones for whites, positive ones for blacks.

    Zedd, I think it would be a good idea if you would say goodnight. You’re speaking gibberish.

  • zingzing

    roger: “”winning the argument” ain’t gonna do it. Winning the heart will.”

    mind vs. heart, eh? fuck that. i have no qualms with giving up. dan is a lost cause, but the good thing is that his philosophy will only lead him to increased segregation from the rest of society, where his type will hate not only other races, but those of his own race that don’t agree with him, thereby creating an increasingly inbred, insular society, whereby they will either kill themselves off or become so retarded that they won’t be able to express their opinions. and then we’ll be rid of them.

    i’d like to think that it’s his heart that’s wrong. there’s nothing there.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was talking about the good old US of A, zing, because that was the context. But even on the global scale, do you think that having the majority of the world’s population on welfare would be your idea of a solution?

    Somehow I doubt it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t referring to Dan – only to what you expressed as your main reason for being here – the fun of arguing. So my response was a general one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We can resume tomorrow. And I apologize if I’ve been too personal. It’s not my business to say why anyone should be here. I was only communicating.

    Later, zing.

  • Dan

    “a racist is a racist is a racist. if you’re happy with it, good for you. but i’m not.”

    You’re the one on the attack. If it makes you unhappy, stop doing it.

  • zingzing

    dan: “But you can tell (on the radio commercial) that’s the point. The producers wanted the listeners to know the black guy was black. And they’re not “playing off of stereotypes” they are promoting them. Negative ones for whites, positive ones for blacks.”

    i’d like to call you blind, but that’s not the word i’d use. why can’t you see that they’re playing the white man’s supposed success as much as they’re playing the black man’s supposed promiscuity? it’s car vs pussy. yes, the white man never gets laid, so he needs a car, but the black man is FUNNY BECAUSE he isn’t a horndog, he’s an acutal human being. the white guy is the straight man, the black guy is the punchline.

  • zingzing

    “You’re the one on the attack. If it makes you unhappy, stop doing it.”

    i’m only unhappy for you. personally, i love it. i don’t know you (and i know that goes against my “liberal” empathy, but i don’t care,) so i enjoy the argument. bring it, bitch. gimme some reason why your thoughts should exist (other than freedom of speech, which i’ll grant).

  • Dan

    A white guy is successful for buying a car? It’s “funny” that a black man isn’t a horndog? You’ve taken this to a whole new level of chaotic confusion.

    I don’t think I can help you now.

  • Dan

    “i’m only unhappy for you. personally, i love it. i don’t know you (and i know that goes against my “liberal” empathy, but i don’t care,) so i enjoy the argument. bring it, bitch. gimme some reason why your thoughts should exist (other than freedom of speech, which i’ll grant).”

    It doesn’t appear you enjoy the argument. If squealing racist, racist, racist is the extent of your reasoning, it doesn’t qualify as much of a challenge.

    The glibness seems to be gone though, so I guess my work is done.

  • zingzing

    “A white guy is successful for buying a car? It’s “funny” that a black man isn’t a horndog?”

    i thought it was a sports car. obviously, it’s the kind of car that “can” get him laid. he’s a “type.” and the black guy doesn’t support your initial reaction to his “type”–it’s obviously built for a white audience. good god. if you have to explain the joke in this much detail, it loses it’s humor. who do you really think the joke’s on here? here’s a clue: who provides the punchline? where’s the laugh? which bit of unexpected humor are we laughing at? the white nerd? or the black guy?

    it’s built on stereotypes. everyone pays a price. but where did the writers lay the bigger shock? if it’s racist (and it’s not, really,) against anyone, it’s the black guy. he’s the joke.

    “I don’t think I can help you now.”

    neither i you. but whatever. we see this thing differently. you see it as an anti-white thing, i see it as a joke.

    that said, fuck whitey, we deserve it.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    zing and dan, get a room.

    (for Roger and Cindy)

  • zingzing

    “It doesn’t appear you enjoy the argument. If squealing racist, racist, racist is the extent of your reasoning, it doesn’t qualify as much of a challenge.”

    no, now it’s just getting good for me. if you’d get back to the actual argument instead of just arguing about the arguing, it would be cool. and you are a racist. we’ve established that. you acknowledge it. so we’re over that.

    i wanna get my vindictive on.

    “The glibness seems to be gone though, so I guess my work is done.”

    oh, i can be glib.

  • zingzing

    el bucho: “zing and dan, get a room.”

    this is a room. and this is the bed. and we lie.

    (and yes, that was a typo, but i left it.)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You know, funny thing. I try not to dwell on race – since for most practical purposes it doesn’t matter a bollocks – but it does seem to be a convenient marker for most people.

    Say if I’m describing someone. If I say he’s a tall white guy in his twenties wearing a blue shirt, no-one will get who I mean. If I say he’s a tall black guy in a blue shirt, suddenly everyone knows who I’m talking about.

    This despite the fact that whites are a minority in the city where I live.

    It’s as if White is seen as the template and All Other Races are deviations of.

    Discuss…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ve learned my lesson, El Bicho, and have reserved one already. Thus far, counting Mark Eden checking in now and then, it’s a mnage trois.

    Actually it’s a suite, and the visitors are welcome. Room service included.

  • Dan

    ” if you have to explain the joke in this much detail, it loses it’s humor.”

    It’s not a joke [personal attack deleted]. It’s an advertisement to sell cars. There wasn’t an attempt to be funny. It has no humor to lose.

    “that said, fuck whitey, we deserve it.”

    There’s the calm sensible thing.

    “zing and dan, get a room.”

    Not without a tazer.

    “i wanna get my vindictive on.”

    You get vindication from self destruction?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well yes, Dreadful. Just as gender is.

    I suppose it’s the first thing you notice about people – their skin color and their gender. I’m not certain now in which order or whether there is an individual variance here. My thinking is – it’s the predator-prey relationship – yes, the caveman’s thing – that determines the first thing we notice about “the other.”

    There might be some studies on the subject. And since Dan is so much into it, he might provide a link or two.

    I recall some studies in the psychology of perception – can’t think of them now – which had to do with the question whether we pick out a single characteristic (such as sex) and then another (in a kind of sequence), or as a composite. It is an interesting question, methinks.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The difference with gender is that there are built-in markers in the language.

    Also, gender is actually germane far more often than race is.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m not certain that I get your meaning, in either case.

  • zingzing

    dan: “It’s not a joke [personal attack deleted]. It’s an advertisement to sell cars. There wasn’t an attempt to be funny. It has no humor to lose.”

    mmm, cross the line. ooooh. yes, there was an attempt to be funny. you just don’t get it.

    “Not without a tazer.”

    who’s got the electricity, darling?

    “You get vindication from self destruction?”

    what am i destroying? oh, right, the white race… i will survive! disco!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    From the prey-predator standpoint – and the fear factor, the fight or flight kind of thing – gender would appear to be “germane” as you called it (not to mention from the procreation standpoint). Is that partly what you meant?

    What about the markers?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’d think that kissing and making up would work wonders. Forget the tazers and weapons of mass destruction. Love is the cure.

  • Dan

    “There might be some studies on the subject. And since Dan is so much into it, he might provide a link or two.”

    I don’t know anything relative, but I would think you would describe outstanding features first. long hair, muscular, big boobs etc.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Well, in my hypothetical example my listeners immediately knew the person I was describing was male because of the gender-specific words.

    It could easily have been relevant that the person was male – for example, if I had been answering the question, “Is there anyone around here who can help me move this 100-pound box?”

    The colour of the person’s skin is absolutely irrelevant to whether they can shift 100 pounds. Their sex is not – women who can lift that sort of weight are rare. Yet, armed with my description of “a tall guy in a blue shirt”, the asker might very well have looked around the room and not seen the guy, even though he was standing right there, simply because she automatically formulated a mental picture of a white man.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, but even before that, you come to basic identification – man or woman, white or black, etc. Or perhaps it all happens at once – a gestalt.

    I’ll look it up tomorrow because it does intrigue me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So we’ve got two different things going here – linguistic descriptions (and their markers) and “pure” perception.

    So as far as your example goes, it would appear that unless specify “black,” they would naturally look for a white man.

    But that, I suppose, is a form of linguistic (or personal?) bias. What do you think? And is it culture specific? Would the same rules apply in Nigeria or Ghana?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cultural bias might be a better term.

  • Doug Hunter

    I’m not certain what the purpose of Dan’s ‘purity’ is. Assuming you could prove there were minor correlations of certain traits with race wouldn’t it make more sense to base your purity on the trait itself rather than what is at most a very weak indicator?

    For example, intelligence, everyone’s favorite. It makes much more sense for a white genius to marry a black genius if your goal is having a smart child than it does for them to marry some less intelligent white.

    Beyond that, what exactly are you saving your purity for? Until there is a race war? Until you exterminate the other? In perpetuity? I hate to tell you, within the century (assuming society doesn’t collapse) geneticists will be designing your babies with whatever traits you want. In that context what would be the purpose of maintaining ‘purity’ when you can just go order it at the lab?

  • Dan

    Doug, I did not express any goal for “purity”, I answered an odd, sort of ugly question about the worthiness of “saving the white race” with the affirmation that it would be worthwhile.

    The inheritance of intelligence regresses to the mean. Less intelligent people are likely to have more intelligent children, and more intelligent people are likely to have less intelligent children.

    Whites have a mean IQ of around 100. Blacks around 85.

    Geneticists aren’t as far along as you assume them to be.

    “i enjoy the argument. bring it, bitch.”—zing #376

    So “dummy” is a personal attack and “bitch” is not.

    I think the bitch does enjoy the argument. Or at least his lame semblence of argument.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    So “dummy” is a personal attack and “bitch” is not.

    [with my assistant comments editor’s hat on]

    I let zing’s “bitch” stand because that’s just the way zing is.

    “Dummy”, in contrast, didn’t strike me as your style.

    It’s all a question of context. Unfair? Maybe, but as the comments policy says, “we know it when we see it”.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Whites have a mean IQ of around 100. Blacks around 85.

    Source?

  • Doug Hunter

    “Geneticists aren’t as far along as you assume them to be.”

    A hundred years is a long time. We only had an inkling that something like DNA existed a hundred years ago, didn’t seperate it out until about 50 years ago, and now you can choose the sex and screen out some defects. I’m not suggesting that designer babies will be widespread by then just that they will be available.

    “The inheritance of intelligence regresses to the mean.”

    This could be a complicated topic depending on what different mechanisms are at play. If this was the only effect then selective breeding would not work… yet it does.

    “Whites have a mean IQ of around 100. Blacks around 85.”

    Blacks are a genetically diverse lot to start with so lumping them together is a bit foolhardy. Secondly, there is no mechanism to extract the genetic from the environmental portion of that number. Assuming that racism did not exist and played no part, strictly self inflicted environmental factors would reinforce themselves. For example, less intelligent parents would create a less enriching environment for their children which would magnify the actual effect.

    Even if all that you say is true I still don’t see the purpose of seperatism unless you plan on some war or extermination. Intermixing itself doesn’t change the mean IQ of the population or effect the number of geniuses. Any dysgenic effect would come from lower intelligence people having more children so if this is your goal you’d do better handing out condoms than pushing for sepatatism that can’t be enforced and doesn’t accomplish anything.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug #338 –

    Okay, Grayson county. I’ll compare it to Kitsap County, Washington, where I live.

    Grayson county source
    Kitsap county source

    I used citydata.com for both – best to get it from the same source (with one exception).

    Unemployment – A pretty-cool Google tool shows that the current unemployment rate for Grayson is 8.6% and Kitsap’s is 7.3%

    But for the citydata.com info, to make a long story short:

    Grayson has a significantly lower crime rate.

    Kitsap has a significantly higher median household income.

    Grayson has more nursing home residents (even without adjusting for the fact that Grayson has about half Kitsap’s population).

    Kitsap has more people in jail.

    Grayson’s death rate per 1,000 is about 10 (the TX avg. is 7.2), whereas Kitsap’s death rate is about 7 per 1,000 (the same as WA state).

    Grayson has slightly fewer infant deaths per 1,000.

    Grayson has 15% without health insurance. Kitsap has 12%.

    Kitsap is significantly more educated – the percentage with bachelor’s degrees is about 50% higher than the percentage in Grayson county. Grayson’s percentage of high-school dropouts is nearly twice that of Kitsap, and according to the graph TX as a whole really sucks when it comes to high school completion (because Grayson – at twice the high-school dropout rate of Kitsap – is still significantly better than the TX state average).

    The fatal accident (non-POV) rate in Grayson is three times that of Kitsap.

    The fatal vehicle accident rate in Grayson is close to 3.5 times that of Kitsap. But the fatal accident rate by drunk drivers is only slightly more in Grayson than in Kitsap.

    Percent living in poverty:
    Kitsap 8.5% (WA – 11.4%)
    Grayson 11.9% (TX – 16.3%)

    So what’s the conclusion? Grayson has significantly less crime (even adjusted for the population difference)…but that is the only area in which Grayson county has a significant advantage.

    You have more people living in poverty, their educational level is lower, more do without health insurance, your fatality rates for accidents (POV and non-POV) are both at least three times higher, your overall death rate is significantly higher (but your infant mortality rate is somewhat lower), and you’ve got more people in nursing homes (even without adjusting for the much lower population there).

    In other words, Grayson county – while by several measures better than the Texas average – is not a ‘better’ place to live. It’s probably much better than my home in MS, but it’s population is still poorer and less educated than in more developed regions.

    Kitsap county, OTOH, does have one huge advantage – we’ve got the biggest Naval base on the Left Coast, our most affluent area is a 35-min. ferry ride to downtown Seattle (which means NO traffic) or an hour’s drive if you want to drive around. I’ve been told we’ve also got the longest waterfront coastline of any county in the lower 48 (which makes for a lot of tax income).

    So…yeah, we’ve got a bit more crime. But we’ve got a heck of a lot more advantages, too.

    Don’t get me wrong, Doug – I really don’t doubt that Grayson county is special, because there’s always a place in my heart for the even more-poverty-stricken Sunflower county in MS. I really do miss the land, the weather, and the people (my son misses the cicadas’ song and the fish so easy to catch in the bayou a little ways from our house)…but I don’t miss the racism, which is the only reason I’ll never live there again.

    So I understand how you feel…but it all really depends on what you want in life. I want my sons to have a better chance for a good education, and to be able to support their families – and this is a good place to do it. The Navy and the multiracial makeup of Kitsap county are big bonuses, too. Life is indeed good here.

    One last thing – if you’re not bothered by island fever (being stuck on an island), then Hawaii’s the best place to live. It’s gorgeous, the people are friendly (the ‘aloha spirit’ is practiced), it’s relatively safe, easy access to higher education, you don’t need a car there at all(!)…so if you can put up with the hideous price of living (like $9 for a gallon of milk I heard earlier this year if you don’t have access to the military commissary), that is the very best place to live. I loved it there…especially when walking down Waikiki on any particular morning with my darling, and we’d see all the tourists who had to fork over thousands for the privilege to do for a little while what we could do every day.

  • Clavos

    Whites have a mean IQ of around 100. Blacks around 85.

    Source?

    Good question, Jordan.

    The 100 for whites is way too high…

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Hey – let’s leave the IQ argument alone, please.

    IQ’s don’t mean much – they can’t truly allow for gender, culture, home situation, parental educational level, income level, or other environmental factors.

    I’ve seen many a time where someone with a low IQ but with a good work ethic can outdo someone with a high IQ but a not-too-good work ethic.

    I put it to my son in a really nerdy way – a person’s work ethic is a multiplier for the level of intelligence. Someone with a genius-level 150 IQ but a work-ethic-multiplier of 3 will be equaled by someone with a below-average IQ of 90 but with a work-ethic-multiplier of 5. YES, the work-ethic-multiplier thing is arbitrary and unmeasurable, but I still think the principle applies.

    Instead, it is best to look at each person for that person’s good and bad qualities, their education, their accomplishments, and their criminal history (if any).

    With my apologies to the Mensa crowd…IQ doesn’t mean as much as many wish it would.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I don’t know about that, Dave. That presupposes a knowledge of history. Do you suppose these stories were transmitted from generation to generation? In any case, I happen to think that antisemitism on the part of the American blacks is greatly exaggerated. If anything, it operates only on the radical fringes.

    The antisemitism doesn’t seem to be general in the black population, most of whom are as indifferent to jews as the average white person is. The antisemitism among blacks seems to be unique to black activists who are generally better educated and more conscious of history than the norm. They go back into history looking for grudges to hold.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    Well, Glenn, a guilty conscience DOES tend to make people more strident in their denial.

    It also tends to lead to a phenomena known as “Projection” in which a person with an undesirable trait accuses others of having that trait, or pursuing the undesired behaviour.

    But your story does explain something I’ve suspected of the Left for a long time- a tendency toward Overcompensation, Rationalization, and Projection. Particularly on the Race issue…

  • Zedd

    zing,

    How did this discussion end up being about how well you and Roger are doing?

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    I think I got it. You read The Bell Curve or some rubbish like that and found your religion. It’s garbage.

    How do you evaluate the intelligence of people whose culture you don’t understand? You would have to understand how they think and they would have to understand what you are asking for starters.

    If I live in a culture where x means xy in your culture, how do you ask me a question about x, especially if you don’t know that it means xy to me? It’s not a matter of your not possessing the IQ to discern that x means xy to me, its just that you don’t know, thus making your experiment useless.

    The problem is that the testers cant conceive that they don’t know. That their perspective or scope or interpretation may be deficient in some way because they start of believing that they are superior.

    Silly really.

  • Clavos

    I’ve seen many a time where someone with a low IQ but with a good work ethic can outdo someone with a high IQ but a not-too-good work ethic.

    Doesn’t change the relative intelligence levels of the two.

    Dismissing intelligence as a factor in a person’s ability to succeed is as bad a mistake as relying on it as the sole determinant.

    The measurement of IQ was developed as an indicator of potential, not outcome.

    As such, it is a valid measure.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But you’ve got to account for cross-cultural differences, Clavos.

  • Clavos

    Yes, Roger, and since the sixties, a lot of research has gone onto addressing that issue. As a result, tests have been developed which do take culture into account to one degree or another.

    There is no one, universally empirical test, and perhaps there never will be, but to dismiss the entire concept is, as I said previously, as fallacious as using it as the sole criterion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    An interesting variation on the theme concerns the so-called aptitude tests. People have different strengths in different areas. Although the prevailing opinion seems to be that the kinds of things you do during the first, say, ten years of your life will stick with you and you’ll be the best at. For example, if you have never developed the taste for math in your early days, the likelihood is you’ll never be spectacular in that field.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    Ah, so if by our admissions of wrongdoing we on the Left are guilty of ‘projection’…and that strongly implies that the Right is innocent of the charges we lay at their feet….

    Then what does that say about all the things the Right accuses the left of doing? Is it because the Right is the one actually doing it, but uses ‘projection’ to blame the Left?

    Like, say, fascism? They accuse the Democrats of fascism (in addition to socialism, communism, corporatism, etc.), so let’s look at the list:

    – Dems don’t keep America safe! But on whose watch did 9/11 happen? And was Bush warned that it might?

    – Dems UHC will cause health care rationing! But HMO’s already do that (and Medicare doesn’t)

    – Dems and ACORN’s voter frauds skewed the election! But there is NO – repeat, NO – evidence that there was a single fraudulent VOTE cast due to the voter registration fraud caused by a _few_ ACORN workers…but I can show you thousands of people who were wrongfully disenfranchised by conservative and Republican efforts.

    – Dems are giving away hundreds of billions of dollars of TARP funds! In fact, Limbaugh claimed that not one Republican voted for TARP But on September 29, 2008, 65 House Republicans voted in favor of H.R. 3997, the original House vehicle for the act. After that legislation failed, on October 1, 2008, 34 Senate Republicans voted for H.R. 1424, the new vehicle for the act, and on October 3, 2008, 91 House Republicans voted for that bill.

    – Dems are anti-family values! But which party’s members have by far had more sex and family scandals since 1970? Newt Gingrich was having an extramarital affair even as he persecuted Clinton for improper use of a cigar….

    But C-shop – in the final analysis, are the Dems guilty of racism to anywhere near the degree of that of the Republicans? Well, gee, remember “Barack the Magic Negro”? And the picture list of all the presidents…where Obama’s picture was two wide eyes superimposed on a black background? And then there’s the most listened-to man on ALL radio – the most powerful conservative voice in America – calling for segregated buses?

    C’mon, C-shop! While you yourself are not responsible for any of these, these acts are committed by the influential within YOUR party…and just as Democrats should hold their own to a higher standard, the Republicans should do the same…

    …but they don’t – because to take on Rush Limbaugh is political suicide for Republican elected officials.

    So what does that say about the Republicans, when their elected officials cannot safely castigate a pundit for racism because they will jeopardize their careers? There is NO equivalent problem with the Dems! There’s something wrong with that picture….

  • Clavos

    Dems UHC will cause health care rationing! But HMO’s already do that (and Medicare doesn’t)

    Absolutely wrong!!!

    My wife has been hospitalized since April 23. Six weeks ago, the hospital advised me that she had run out of her benefits for this benefit period, and Medicare would no longer pay for her until she is discharged for at least 60 days, after which a new benefit period begins. Fortunately for us, the hospital, which though private is a not-for-profit with a lot of endowment, was able to pick up half of her expenses for the past six weeks, our private insurance is kicking in most of the remainder, and I’m covering about 10% out-of-pocket. As of today, there is no discharge date on the horizon, so this situation will continue indefinitely.

    But Medicare cut her off six weeks ago, and this is not the first time in the four years she has been a chronically ill Medicare patient, it’s the second; it also happened in 2008, when she spent a total of seven months hospitalized.

  • STM

    Clav: “And yet, ironically, the Caribbean Blacks all were slaves as well.”

    Except they ewre freed in 1830, compenation paid to slave “owners” by the British Governemt (an amount that would be equivalent to many billions of dollars in today’s money), given land, and told they suddenl;y had the “full rights of an Englishmen”.

    As Colin Powell says, they didn’t pay lip service to it. Thney actually did give them those rights.

    They also became largely self-governing and still are today.

    Perhaps the reason for the contempt too is that Caribbean blacks have been largely respobsible for their own self determination: a function of the fact that most of those who live on the islands are actually black themselves – the majority, not the minority.

    In that last bit lies the key, i believe. Plus, they are very much accepted as a key part of the British commonwealth through that most civilising of sports: cricket, which they are very bloody good at.

    Plus many of them now live in England, where few people bat an eyelid these days at the colour of others.

    So the differences actually aren’t that subtle.

    Also, in the war of 1812, many black American slaves fought on the British side and were later given land in the West Indies, where some are still know colloquially in the islands as “merikans”.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    I remember you saying you had private insurance taking over after her Medicare benefits ran out. Is she enrolled in Medicare Advantage?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “compenation paid to slave ‘owners’ by the British Governemt (an amount that would be equivalent to many billions of dollars in today’s money), given land, and told they suddenl;y had the ‘full rights of an Englishmen’.

    Now, that’s significant, and it’s definitely not a lip service.

    Were the slaves compensated, too, other than given their freedom? Just asking.

  • STM

    Rog: I believe they were given an amount of money. They were also given productive land in many cases and those who worked on plantations had to be paid a proper wage for their work, Rog. They were also free to join the British military – mostly the Navy – but not in segregation or manual work and received the same pay as everyone else, AND did the same work.

    That was s far back 1830 remember.

    A black sailor from the Caribbean was the first black man to win the Victoria Cross (the Britisn Medal of Honour eqivalent) by going forward on his own initiative and manning an artillery gun on his own during the Indian mutiny in the 1800s. He kept serving the gun by himself until relieved.

    The British don’t hand thosevthings out by the bucket load either. The last British recipient, BTW, is a guy named Johnson Beharry, also black, who saved his tank crew in Iraq not once but twice, and was seriously wounded in the porcess (An Aussie SAS Trooper, Mark Donaldson, is the last recipient of the medal to date, for saving a number of wounded men, including some American colleagues on the same mission, under heavy fire in Afghanistan. Donaldson’s not blacj though – he’s a “rangger:, or redhead :).

    But blacks were given those equal rights in the services (Navy mostly) even before the Abolition of Slavery Act.

    Also, like I say, the Court of King’s Bench ruling in London that used the writ of habeas corpus to free and then rule in favor of runaway Virginian slave James Somersett about 1774 had a huge impact and caused an uproar in the American colonies.

    (Note that the revolutiomn came not long after. It was, I believe, one of the reasons, given the calibre of men like Jefferson, who owned slaves. Controversial opinion I konw, but worth thinking about neverthless).

    No positive law (ie, any act of parliament) exists in England today banning slavery. But under the British Constitution, it remains illegal because of that 1774 ruling.

    Although if memory serves me correctly the court did rule that it had always been illegal.

    However, there was much debate about the fate of those slaves OUTSIDE Britain itself, and it toook some years for the good intent of that ruling to catch up to reality, first with the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act in 1808, which tasked the Royal Navy with stopping slave ships on the high seas to ban the trade, and then the Abolition itself in 1830.

    That move Amazing Grace gives a pretty good account of the abolition movement in Britain during that period, which was largely fuelled by an angry public who were horrified by the whole notion and their nation;sminvolvement in it once the facts were made clear.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right, we talked about that movie. But what always impressed me about the Brits is a certain sense of responsibility they felt with respect to their colonies. They didn’t just leave and let all havoc break loose, which would be the easiest thing to do, but stayed on, oftentimes even at their own peril, to see through an orderly transition.

    Lord Mountbatten comes to mind as a prime example.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But I guess it goes with the Brit’s predominant trait – a sense of fair play.

  • STM

    Mind you, while I feel Britain had a head start on America thanks to the Glorious Revolution of 1688, 100 years before the Aerican revolution and was in some areas far more enlightened than their American brethren, in others they weren’t.

    They were benevolent colonisers for the most part, but still exploited the colonised nations to keep open markets for their own goods, and in many cases treated colonised people as second-class citizens.

    You only have to look here at what happened to the aborigines, not to mention the fact that the decsendents of many Australians arrived on these shores in chains were worked to death in inhuman conditions … not that different to the experience of black slaves in America, either.

    The fact that we came through that as a happy, prosperous nation to become a leading light in true liberal democracy is nothing short of a miracle.

    It did have one good effect here. The underdog rules in this country.

    Workers have had the best working conditions and wages of all the western nations – and done through legislation so it has a legal basis – for the past 100 years.

    It’s also a great indication of how workers and unions can work hand in hand with free enterprise through enterprise bargaining and accord, so that everyone wins and shares in the profits.

    We can’t be doing too much wrong as we’re the only western economy that grew through the global financial crisis.

    Anything’s possible if you get out of the idea that workers and business/corporations always have to be at loggerheads and that capitalism is ONLY about the bottom line.

    I think many corporations forget – not here so much though – that their loyal workers are making the money for them and are their greatest effort.

    Thus, it’s only fair that workers should reap a greater share of the profits than might be the cae elswhere.

    It’s worked here, truly. This place is absolutely a worker’s paradise, with a very high standard of living and a much narrower gap between higher and lower earners than in say the US or the UK.

    That’s whay I ain’t leaving if I can help it. You’d have to drag me off this continent by the bootsraps, and even then I might kick ya in the balls on the way out:)

    BTW Zedd, that black white supremacist video was an absolute hoot.

    If there’s one thing I know about Zulus through my personal experience, it’s their keen (and self-effacing) sense of humour, which of course strikes a chord with Aussies – and even in the face of everything they’ve had to experience over the past 50 years.

    Times have really changed over there though. What they’ve achieved in South Africa in the past 20 years, no other nation could have done in 200.

    Nice to see your name back around the place BTW.

  • Clavos

    @#416:

    No, it’s her employer group insurance, which we kept because it’s far superior to Medicare Advantage.

    My wife is a health insurance expert, having spent 30 years in that industry, rising to director level in a major insurance company; she chooses and handles our insurance.

    The point is, Medicare does have limits, it is NOT unlimited insurance, by a long shot.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, the situation you’re describing reminds me somewhat of the not-to-distant past, the good old sixties (if we forget Vietnam), where American corporations prided themselves on being “good corporate citizens.” And in spite of the labor-management conflict (mostly from the UAW or the longshoremen), which sometimes got nasty, there wasn’t that much of an antagonism between business and labor. The corporations were aware that the workers were an asset, and the notion of good will, whether with respect to consumers, workers and the local community, meant something.

    Until deregulation, I suppose, mergers and acquisitions, and the advent of the global corporation. It’s then when pure greed took over.

    But I had better look up the video that Zedd posted.

  • STM

    Rog, Zedd, Clav, et al: Also, I have a literally crippling back problem right now (just temprarily hopfully) as a result of a Rugby League injury suffered when I stupidly played the game until I was 36 and got gang tackled by three big buggers into a boundary fence and also smashed an advertising hoarding and my collarbone (in eight places) in the process and was forced to go hospital with a dog lead as a makeshift sling. I am currently taking a course of valium (or benzodiazepam) as a muscle relaxant, and panadeine forte, both of which have completely zonked me out (but are not entirely unpleasant :)…. thus all the bad typos.

    I hope everyone can see my mistakes in context, and work out wat they mean, even though it looks like complete gibberish (and more than usual).

    Rog, I can’t link here because my computer is playing up (and even if it wasn’t, I’m too out of it to work it out), but if you are interested in Amazing Grace and the background to the British abolition movement as it moved from public opinion to legal opinion, try googling James Somersett. Wikipedia is just about spot on fo once. It makes for very interesting reading and I know you’ll be facsinated.

  • zingzing

    zedd: “How did this discussion end up being about how well you and Roger are doing?”

    that’s not what we were discussing at all. not that i remember exactly what it was we were discussing… but we weren’t discussing that.

  • STM

    og, we had a right-wing government recentlybthat tried to degregulate that 100 years of “fair go”, suggesting we should trust business to do the right thing (yeah, right, that’s why we didn’t do it for 100 years). They courted aspirational australians, and then turned on them by taking away their rights and conditions..

    Labor got in at the last election and restored the status quo.

    I guess the message for the conservaties – believe it or not, they are called “Liberals” here – got the mssage loud and clear on that at the polling booth.

    The Prime Minister of the dat, John Howard, a mate of Gerge W.Bush, became only the second sitting Australian PM to lose hois own seat – and thus his leadership of the party – in a federal election.

    He bloody well deserved it, too. Most of us are still saying good riddance.

    Although the Labor PM, Kevin Rudd, could bore for Australia – plus he looks like a dentist.bAt least his policies are humane, though, especially in relation to issues like undoing the policy of locking up asaylum seekers for years on end while their caes were being heard.

    When I say locked up, I mean in good conditions … but barbed wirev is barbed wire, even if you have good food, education, medical treatment, clean sheets, TV and a nice place to put your head every night.

    It’s still sould-desatryoing, especially for those who were so desperate they spent their life savings coming here for a better life from places like Iraq, Afghanisatn, Iran and Sri Lanka … where despite claims by the conservatives that they are “queue jumpers”, in most cases in the places they come from, there are no queues to jump.

    A fact the previous government conveniently forgot to mention.

  • STM

    Shit, I’m out of it.

    Zing would be proud.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Stan. You’re doing great with your postings. Besides, I always read between the lines, so no problem there.

    That’s right, zing. We didn’t disagree on the substance. But I’ll still say that you have more integrity than you’re willing to admit. So shoot me for it.

  • zingzing

    “That’s right, zing. We didn’t disagree on the substance. But I’ll still say that you have more integrity than you’re willing to admit. So shoot me for it. ”

    i’m so confused. what substance? (my god, what have i done?) really, there’s too many comments here for me to go back and try and figure this out… so what are you talking about? what integrity? me? eh?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So it looks like that the Labor Party in Oz isn’t as rabid and ideological as in the old country.

    I’d have a good shot or two of Johnny Walker Black if I were you. It can make the pain go away.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The substantive issue was presented by Dan. Our little spat had to do with your claim that you’re here, on BC, only for the sake of a good argument.

    Well, I say it’s more than that. I do believe in your positions and don’t just spout them to be contrary.

    That’s what I meant by integrity.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You do believe . . .

  • zingzing

    ahh.

    no i don’t. you’re wrong.

    argue!

    it’s true that, up to a point, i do enjoy it when people like dan show up. because then you can totally go off the wall, and you’re going to get something truly fucked up thrown back at you. there’s absolutely no point in arguing with him, but a pointless argument is an awesome thing now and again. most people would consider the pointlessness of it to be a detriment, but i think pointlessness is its own point, and it needs nothing else to recommend it. it’s just pure fun at that… point…

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    “Dismissing intelligence as a factor in a person’s ability to succeed is as bad a mistake as relying on it as the sole determinant.”

    You are pretty much cancelling the relevance of your argument. You are basically saying “it could matter and then it may not”. Which is what any 3rd grader could tell you.

    Intellect is a tricky thing. So is “success”. Success at what? Intellectual ability in what? Let’s face it Einstein was a fluke (especially for that time). We have no way of quantifying how many people who have his capability exist or have ever existed, because of the very reason that we almost never knew that he ever existed.

    I’ve got a kid who is a major klutz and painfully inapt socially. You’d think she was “slow”. Yet she is frighteningly intelligent (book-wise). My other cheerleader-esque one, is sharp as a tack in many respects, creepily organized, a social butterfly but has to work really hard for her A’s. She makes A’s but she rarely remembers what the test was about after she’s taken it. She can be rather foggy to put it lightly. The term logic makes her exhausted. However my lil’ genius may get the logic behind getting something done but cant quite get it accomplished because she gets all confused and things end up a MESS. But more importantly, they are both cute.

  • Zedd

    STM,

    I find it funny that you are probably the only person who has had the “courage” to comment on that vid. American Whites tend to be afraid of seeming racist. I was chuckling because I could imagine them cracking up in private. But none would comment. I was sorta being naughty when I posted it.

    Its one of the funniest skits I’ve ever seen on TV. I have friends who repeat some of the quotes.

    I love it when they say why he divorced his wife and when he lists all of the people he hates (nigrs…..a-raabs), cause they STANK and all of titles of his books. Hilarious!!! My favorite though is when he says “Sir, I am in no way, shape or form involved in any nxggerdome”! Kills me every time.

    Makes it all seem so riduculous.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #433,

    I agree. To bring someone to a state “pointlessness” is rewarding (in a perverse kind of way).

    Besides, is there a better way of making your own point?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I haven’t seen it yet.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    People are good at different things – math and sciences, engineering, arts.

    None of these things are comparable. They each carve a niche where a person can excel. That’s one reason why the term “success” sounds so shallow to me – because it necessarily connotes approval. In a great many cases, approval comes posthumously.

    That’s why “excellence” – arete is a much better term.

  • Zedd

    On the intellect thing… again. I think it was Mead who tested some aboriginals who lived off of a coast, who built their homes on stilts using a complex web of poles to support their huts. The stilts were strong enough to protect their homes from the floods which came with the massive seasonal storms. It turns out that these people had an amazing mathematical ability, especially in the area of geometry.

    Now did the chicken come before the egg?

    Did they build their houses in that fashion because they were geniuses in that area by nature (and off course passed the trait on…) or did they develop a keen sensibility to geometry because of their exposure to those architectural design’s intricacies.

  • Zedd

    I love the term “excellence”.

    I don’t buy into the “intelligence” thingy either. My IQ was said to be high and I know I’m a major goober. What a joke!

  • zingzing

    zedd: “I find it funny that you are probably the only person who has had the “courage” to comment on that vid. American Whites tend to be afraid of seeming racist”

    what video? repost.

    the onion’s av club has a series that dissects scenes in movies. you watch the scene, and they discuss its cinematic awesomeness. there was one from a movie about a guy who went into an insane asylum on purpose (he’s a journalist). he befriends this black guy who is totally convinced that he’s white and he’s a total kkk kind of guy. he violently attacks fellow blacks, (at one point screaming, “quick! before he marries our daughters!”) marches up and down the halls in protest…

    oh! i found it! it gets increasingly crazy (so much to the point that the first time i watched it, i had to unplug the speakers because it got so… inappropriate for my multi-racial living situation…) and surreal. to hear a kkk sermon coming out of the mouth of a black man is just so… wrong. imagining how he must have felt saying those words–particularly at the time (1963!)–is something i don’t want to think about.

  • zingzing

    zedd: ” “I find it funny that you are probably the only person who has had the “courage” to comment on that vid. American Whites tend to be afraid of seeming racist”

    ok, now i watched it. i’ve seen that before. i don’t think laughing at that video puts me in any danger of seeming racist… obviously, it’s laughing at racism (and is very similar to the scene i posted, except more obviously funny, and at a safer time for such a scene…) and racists. do you think all those white people acting like white power nuts look like racists (in reality, i mean)?

    i see you put “courage” in quotes… why was that? are you being sarcastic… as in, am i overreacting? chappelle’s show is really, really popular amongst white americans, precisely because it does stuff like this. getting white people to admit they love this skit would be incredibly easy.

  • zingzing

    actually, zedd, i think that NOT finding that video funny puts you in danger of looking racist. unless that’s not what you were saying…

  • Clavos

    You are pretty much cancelling the relevance of your argument. You are basically saying “it could matter and then it may not”.

    No, I didn’t say that. I said it shouldn’t be used as the sole factor. I also pointed out that it is only an indicator of potential, not of outcome.

    But you cherrypicked, as you usually do.

    And fair or not, I’ve been hiring people for half a lifetime. If a candidate cannot come across in the interview and testing as being intelligent (as one element among several) enough to handle the job, they don’t get it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I can’t imagine anyone, not even Dan, not finding Zedd’s video hilarious.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing,

    I think you can see the entire feature you refer to in #441 on UTube.

    I’ll provide the link if you’d like.

  • zingzing

    i can find it. there’s another scene (linked in the article i posted) where he finds the nympho room. funny, funny stuff. but i kinda think that, as a whole, the movie is probably a bit of a stinker. i really don’t have much interest in watching the thing, but if i do one day, i’ll look it up.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So you do know about UTube movies – full features. Some real good ones, including the classics. And the selection is expanding.

    Anyways’s here’s the link.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s why I don’t need TV. And I haven’t spent a dime on video rentals in two months.

  • Dan

    Dr. Dreadful: (I let zing’s “bitch” stand because that’s just the way zing is.

    “Dummy”, in contrast, didn’t strike me as your style.”

    OK then, I don’t mind being held to a higher standard. Comes with the territory. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

    I learn now from reading subsequent posts that zings “style” also includes denial, obfuscaction, and just playing dumb in order to render a “pointless” argument. Strikes me as a trollish waste of time with little reward, but I guess he got me on that one.

  • zingzing

    dan: “I learn now from reading subsequent posts that zings “style” also includes denial, obfuscaction, and just playing dumb in order to render a “pointless” argument.”

    nah, i’m not playing dumb. everything i wrote to you is true (at least in my mind). i’m just smart enough to know that you’ll not change because of what i say to you. therefore, there is no strict point to the argument. nothing is going to be solved. we’re just arguing to argue. i’m fine with that. in fact, i enjoy it.

    and i dunno how i’m using “denial” at all.

    but you’re still just arguing about the arguing, which is even more pointless than arguing just to argue.

  • Doug Hunter

    Roger and Zedd,

    In regards to intelligence you are correct that it’s much too complex to be brought down to one number. I have a pretty good ability in math which always measured in the top 1%. I’ve never been able to write well or think quickly or been apt to remember facts or details and my art and music skills are also very limited. I don’t think anyone talking to me would feel I was particularly quick but if we took some test weighted with math skills I’d certainly excel.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So yes, the IQ is a kind of minefield – a dangerous territory.

    But your language skills are darn good, Doug.

  • Doug Hunter

    Glenn #402 I noticed you picked Grayson to make your comparison. I live in Denton county so if we compare those stats (although it’s not fair because there is the urban area of Denton skewing figures which is why I mentioned Grayson to begin with)

    …………..Denton TX……….Kitsap, WA
    Med. Income….$71,109 …………$57,474
    Med. House……$195K …………..$205K
    Unemploy 2004….4.4% ……………5.9%
    Bach Degrees…..36.6%……………25.3%
    Population…….612K ……………236K
    In Poverty 2007…7.2%……………8.5%
    Murder in 2yr….. 3…………….. 5
    Rape in 2yr …….23 ……………228
    Robbery in 2yr ….9 ……………81
    Assault in 2yr ….143……………712
    Auto theft 2yr ….88 ……………647

    we get this. I’d say the area isn’t doing particularly poorly. With three times the population Denton has much less crime which surprised me especially the rape number. Does a woman in WA really have a 25 times greater chance of getting raped? I’d question some of their data. I know crime is low though and I live in one of the lowest of the low areas in the county but I can barely believe crime is 5, 10, and 25 times greater where you live.

    Also, the median income is high in Denton when compared to overall cost of living which is below the national average. Many nice 3/2/2 houses (Ok, maybe boring tract homes) can be had in the $90-110K where the median income for a family is $71K. That’s a pretty good ratio. Look it up on realtor.com, buy one and I’ll even get you some Coors Light and a housewarming gift.

    Anyway, this is not a pissing contest about who lives in the best location… the answer is certainly neither of us. My point was about one specific corner of the world right where I live. There are other great communities and hidden gems in every state. The bigger question is why in the same system with the same rules do people achieve such disparate outcomes? When there is this much disparity, is the federal government and it’s one size fits all approach really the best tool to try and work on society’s problems? For those people who live where the system works better, is it possible to comprehend why they wouldn’t want to scrap that system (their ‘conservatism’)?

  • Dan

    “Even if all that you say is true I still don’t see the purpose of seperatism unless you plan on some war or extermination. Intermixing itself doesn’t change the mean IQ of the population or effect the number of geniuses. Any dysgenic effect would come from lower intelligence people having more children so if this is your goal you’d do better handing out condoms than pushing for sepatatism that can’t be enforced and doesn’t accomplish anything.”—Doug

    I’ve already corrected you on one misstatement you’ve attributed to me. I’m happy to honestly answer any question posed to the best of my ability, but whether it is due to dishonesty or laziness, misattributions do not provide a good foundation for meaningful dialogue.

    I haven’t “pushed” for anything. I’ve simply said that people should be able to have the choice to live with whatever mixture of humans they are comfortable with.

    Tell me though, In your “push” for more forced integration, are forced interracial marriages off the table?

    See how that works?

    “but you’re still just arguing about the arguing, which is even more pointless than arguing just to argue.”—Mr. Pointless

    Exactly, So I’ve now topped your game of pointlessness with pointless pointlessness.

    were still cool, right?

  • Ted

    Hey I’m the 455th commenter.

  • Ted

    Nope, i was the 456th. This place is blowin’ up.

  • zingzing

    ahh, pointless pointlessness. but if you point is to be pointless, do you have a point?

    and dan, people ARE free to live in whatever mix of the population they desire.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I’ve simply said that people should be able to have the choice to live with whatever mixture of humans they are comfortable with.”

    That’s totally unobjectionable, Dan. You can even be a hermit if you like. But that’s different from talking about “preserving the white race.”

    It’s the latter statement that got most people aroused.

  • Zedd

    Clavos,

    You are lucky I think you are adorable. I really wanted to slice you on that last post. I’m sure you would have taken the opportunity with glee were you in my shoes.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan @ #418: The last British recipient, BTW, is a guy named Johnson Beharry, also black, who saved his tank crew in Iraq not once but twice, and was seriously wounded in the porcess [sic]

    Indeed, Stan. You may remember I wrote about him in an article for BC last year.

    There’ve only been a handful of Victoria Crosses awarded since WW2, and you pretty much have to be dead to get one. (The last recipient before Pte. Beharry was Lt.-Col. ‘H’ Jones, who died storming an Argentine trench single-handed, rallying his troops and scaring the willies out of the enemy at the Battle of Goose Green during the Falklands War.

    The fact that Pte. Beharry did what he did and is still drawing breath is pretty amazing.

  • Zedd

    zing

    @441 – I haven’t watched yet. I’m about to watch but I just broke up when I read “quick! before he marries our daughters!”) marches up and down the halls in protest…”. zing I am having problems with asthma but darn it you are insane.

    Let me watch this.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m dragging the discussion back to an earlier point. So what. I’ve been away most of the day. Choo gonna do about it?

    Bah.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol silly people.

    *hides her lunch money* just in case dr.d gets any bright ideas

    ahh, pointless pointlessness. but if you point is to be pointless, do you have a point?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    that was a good point. now where did the rest of that comment go?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That was the point.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    Please understand that to me there is nothing offensive about what you’ve said. I think its odd and doesn’t make sense.

    So let me get this…. You don’t care about the character of the people around you, just their skin, the shade, not texture (like covered in warts from head to toe, etc), the shade. So they could be all creepy and potentially rape your wife or kids or they could be dirty or nosey or rude or stinky. Its the shade of their epidermis that matters to you? So if a GORGEOUS caramel complected woman, with an an amazingly feminine appearance and a silly disposition (acts flighty because it allows her to rest her mind cause its always going), hates football, loves gardening, house is well decorated (awesome actually), enjoys intellectual conversations but isn’t pretentious, goofy as heck, is an information buff (useless info), has traveled to some interesting places, strives to live abundantly, has a cute dog with a girly name but acts like a boy monkey, her kids are A students and are CUTE as heck… you would not feel honored to have her as a neighbor because of that lovely caramel skin?

    Are you scared of the skin? Do shades of brown frighten you? What shade does the fear start at? Does beig scare you? What is it? Seriously, we need to get to the bottom of this. I mean White people get on my nerves. Not all of them but a lot of them do. There is so much they don’t know about the world but they are always talking, always running off at the mouth. Most of the time is just to get people to think they know something that is impossible to know with certainty. Don’t let them be the only White in the room. They think that everyone is looking to them for answers and don’t realise that everyone is just being nice because they are used to placating them. Many Whites annoy me. The wide eyed nodding sing song talk – acting as if they have to take it down a notch for you and show you kindness, when they are not that bright – and you are just being nice because they get scared when you respond like you REALLY should. BUT, there are Black people who make me scratch my head. I mean I work in non profit near a not so good neighborhood. My goodness!!!!!! The things I witness on the commute everyday are beyond confounding. The crossing personal space with VOLUME. In many cases, you want to stand on a chair on an empty lot with a bull horn and say “look around folks, is anyone outside of this neighborhood dressed like this? I mean really. What job do you think you are going to dressed like that, and with that hair style?” And the grandiose behavior is just sad.

    I would be stupid to only want Blacks around me much as I love them and get them. I would be in hell if only Whites were around me. I’d be dead on the road if I was surrounded by Mexicans only (tee hee, joke for Clav– can you drive Clavie?? What’s up with that anyway?) Kids running all over the store. Only Asians would be too much to bare. The bossy ladies fussing and demanding a discount at the store… pure hell. The weired fixtures on the lawn – dragons I think. I love Indians and their food but the smell would kill me. Middle Easterners, the fanciness… gold swirls.

    Any way you get the picture. People are a mess and it’s funny and annoying and great as heck!! Dan you are not smarter than me because your skin is peach nor am I than you because my skin is light coffee (and cute). You are not impressive and I don’t want to be you or be like you but I may find you interesting; the real you not the pretend hero know it all White guy. That guy is stupid and embarrassingly goofy. Leave him home and go live man. There are 6 billion people out there who will blow your mind. Everyone has a story and it’s always juicy. Forget about those antiquated ideas and live silly.

    I hope that most of you will realise that Im only skimming. All these groups are actually worse. – An Ode To Archie Bunker.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    I hope your not gonna be like Ruvy and make every post be about The Brits. :o)

  • Zedd

    Doug,

    Denton is cool as heck! Have you heard about North by Southwest (or something like that). I understand it’s coming. Cant wait. No more long drives to Austin.

    You cheated and didn’t mention that Denton is a two College super liberal hippified town. They are too busy doing pottery to think about assault.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #467,

    Cool post.

    (#468 wasn’t off key; it referred to another topic up the thread.)

  • Zedd

    roger,

    I was just teasing him. Actually getting a jab on Ruvy really. I find it amazing that he doesn’t realize that he does that. Israel on every post…. Geez!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I have to tread softly here. It either this or incommunicado.

  • Zedd

    zing,

    The clip was good. Funny and yes surreal. I’m sure the older Black inmate was like “man I thought I was nuts but these folks…”.

    That actor was good. Wasn’t he in a series in the 70s. I seem to recall him (older) wearing a turtleneck and a blazer on some show when I was a kid. Perhaps a rerun.

    Anyway he delivered that speech well. I almost joined up.

  • http://saharsblog.wordpress.com Sahar

    Roger: Definitely, nothing can compare to person to person contact, but not many are lucky enough to rub elbows with people from different cultures. So I’d say that it’s important to first try to meet individuals from other cultures, but, if it’s not possible, to make do of this wonderful thing called the Internet.

  • Doug Hunter

    Denton has a bit of Austin in it. My new band knowledge is sorely lacking, I’m always digesting music years after it has passed. I’m regressing actually, my two most recent downloads are ‘our lips are sealed’ and ‘girls just want to have fun’ from the 80’s. I can’t vouch for my taste but I can tell you what I think of today’s bands…. in the year 2025.

    Also, Denton still votes very red. It’s proof I guess that we can live together without killing each other and yes it’s a pretty nice place to live.

  • Doug Hunter

    Also, #467 is an excellent post

  • Zedd

    I wonder if we could have a thread or site where everyone got to post their take on other “races” including their own. Not the stupid meaningless stuff like wop or jungle bunny but real stuff. Perhaps even post honest questions that they couldn’t normally post.

    I bet if someone started that website it would get a lot of traffic. It would have to be owned by a group of people from different ethnicities to survive.

    I would guess that people would end up agreeing on a lot of stuff, even about their own race or at least understanding how they could be perceived that way.

  • Zedd

    Doug,

    Come to think of it, there are older people in Denton. I’m also guessing that the folks from the outlying areas move to Denton for a “big city” experience – places like Gainesville.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “‘Dummy’, in contrast, didn’t strike me as your style.”

    Considering Dan used it, it obviously is his style, unless he was coerced.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right.

    Or under duress having to duel with zing.

  • Dan

    “That’s totally unobjectionable, Dan. You can even be a hermit if you like. But that’s different from talking about “preserving the white race.”

    Well, not totally unobjectionable, If it is white people who want to live exclusively with other whites. Many people find that specific desire extremely objectionable.

    “It’s the latter statement that got most people aroused.”

    Not the exact statement but close enough. The opposite of preserve would be destroy. The logical implication if you didn’t want to preserve the white race, would be that you would want to destroy the white race.

    Would that “arouse” anyone.

    Of course you could say you were indifferent to the survival of the white race, but then if you were indifferent or didn’t care, why would it arouse anyone if someone else did care?

    Zedd, sounds like you would make a fine neighbor. A little chatty, and hating football is a negative, but I could cope.

    I could leave it there, but I know you would still be confused. The reason for your confusion is that you rely exclusively on a caricature of a race realist that is consumed with hate. But that is a myth.

    There are many, many of us that realize that the disparate differences between groups that liberals meddle to fix are a function of group differences, (but not individual differences between you and I) in ability temperment etc., and not due to white racism.

    And they resent it.

    But they can’t speak out. They could be ostracized, lose positions, lose their livelihood, etc.

    So they assume a collective guilt. Many of them competing to be the least racist, professing like Glen that they are afflicted with some internal defect they must struggle with daily.

    Even prominent social scientists who treat the evidence as delicately and sensitive as they can get dumped and labled.

    Everyone knows of black and brown genius and creativity, competence. Wer’re all happy for it, would like more of it. But we also know of the disparate illegitimacy, crime, and drop out rates. Somehow the success of some to excel in a “racist” society does nothing to prove that racism did not hold them back. The percentages are still off.

    And there is more in the pipeline. People who may have never seen a white man will come and receive affirmative action advantage over white men. 20% of the Mexican population are here already.

    That’s why whites segregate themselves as best they can. And higher educated whites segregate themselves the most. Nothing angers more than the truth.

  • Leighann

    I lived Alabama until I was fourteen years old. I have seen the racism, especially in the older people who live there. It is not so much in the younger generation. I was only one of a very few handful of white students at my school many times. I was the only white girl in some of my classes and only maybe one of four or five in most of my classes. I had positive experiences and negative ones. There were many students who didn’t like me because I was white. I could not count the times that I was called “honkey” and “peckerwood.” I was told many times to get away cause white people have lice and told how stringy and ugly my hair was. Many times I was put down and was told that I was not good at anything. I was shy and quiet and usually just tried to walk the other way. That being said, just as many times as these things were said to me and I would not defend myself there were those (actually more) who were willing to defend me and befriend me. This made me very aware that I had to be careful, and usually walked on eggshells around people until I could get some kind of sense of if they liked me or not. By the way, this problem did not start until around the fourth grade. Now, I will say that I am still very careful around black people until I figure out if they are okay with me or not. I do not know if it is logical to be this way but is out of habit now, I guess.

    I did not understand until I got older why there were people who did not like me just because I was white. I do now. Anger.

    About inter-racial marriage, it is not just taboo in white southern families, many black families do not like it either. Probably just as many and the ones who do not like inter-racial marriage do not like it just as much. It is a misconception that many white people have that it is only their race that has a problem with it.

    Then I was moved to TN to a county where there were no black kids. I was in total culture shock and believe it or not it took a while for me to be able to interact well. IT would take a lot more space than I have here to explain that.

    I think (hope) that Dan is trying to say that it is okay to be proud of being white just as it is okay to be proud of being of any other race and sometimes it seems as if people think that it is okay to embrace your culture and heritage as long as it is not white(because then you should be ashamed). There is a lot to be ashamed of and I feel bad that my ancestors did the things that they did, but I can do nothing about it but try to be better than that and do whatever I can to make sure it stops with my generation. But can I be white and proud?

    I also see where he is going with the whole TV thing but I do not see that as a race issue as much as a gender issue. Many males (of varying racial make-ups) are made to look dumb on TV today and inferior to their female counterparts, who are portrayed to be much smarter, attractive, stronger and yada yada yada. Anyway…thats it for me. Yall have a good night.

  • STM

    Doc: “The fact that Pte. Beharry did what he did and is still drawing breath is pretty amazing.”

    Likewise Trooper Donaldson. They were ambushed by the Taliban returning from a joint search and destroy mission by Australian and US special forces and Afghan solduiers – it was the only road they could use to get out. The mission to that point had been very successful.

    Many of the wounded in the ambush were US and Australian soldiers, and Donaldson and a couple of others moved them to cover under fire, and then engaged the Taliban themselves.

    After they got the wounded on the Land Rovers and began to leave under heavy fire, Donaldson noticed that their Afghan interpreter had been left behind.

    So he jumped off the truck, sprinted through the fire, picked up the interpreter in a fireman’s carry – both men being heavily shot at all the while – and ran back to the vehicle. Both lived. Donaldson, somehow, as unscatched.

    Because he was awarded a VC, unusually for an SAS Trooper, Donaldson was allowed to be named.

    The award of the VC here was a huge deal as he is the first Australian serviceman to win a Victoria Cross since the Vietnam War. Only four were awarded to Australians during in Vietnam. Two of those were posthumously awarded, one recipient has since died and the last, Warrant Officer Keith Payne, is still alive.

    Donaldson, for his part, suggests – as most VC winners do – that we was just doing his job.

    The last of the Aussie WWII VC winner died a few months ago. Ted Kenna stood up and started firing a Bren gun at a Japanese machine gun post, and when he ran out of ammo, he grabbed a rifle and started blazing away with with that. His mates reported that japanese bullets were passeing between his arms and his body.

    He was hit in the face by a bullet and said later that if his wife knew where his replacement cheek had come from, she’d never have kissed him goodbye as he went off to work in the mornings.

    That’s why people like Osama bin Laden will never beat usd: ordinary men who don’t want to die do extraordinary things, knowing that in doing them they could die.

    But they still do them anyway.

    Johnson Beharry, Trooper Donaldson and all those brave New York firemen who went into the towers on 9/11 knowing full well they could soon die a terrible death are excellent examples of why a pack of idiots whose preferred headdress is the teatowel and whose last-known address was a cave will ever get their wish.

    That’s the difference betweenn us and them.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    You keep missing it badly.

    I posted what I posted in order for you to realize just how tiny minded your aversion to people because of their epidermis is AND now locked in you are. Did you get that?

    Now remember that I posted “you break it, you fix it”. – We’ve all heard that. Whites in America’s past made a mess with the race thing, especially towards Africans and Native Americans. There are consequences. There always are.

    Surely you understand that when you make a mess, the mess will be messy. It’s like throwing a glass on the floor really hard on purpose and getting angry because you have pieces of glass all over the place and getting even more angry when you get cut by a piece of glass that you didn’t pick up, months later. You broke it on purpose and you didn’t do enough to clean it up so (drum role) you got cut. Being angry only shows that you have a serious imbalance of sorts and certainly lack the ability to evaluate things rationally. We (meaning every living person with a modicum of thinking ability) know that human beings are affected by experience and that those experiences effect who they become and how they behave. The more intense or consistant the experience, the more impact it has on shaping who they become. You know that Africans who arrived here with their own systems and norms were forced violently not to practice those norms and to pretend to be livestock for the benefit of Whites, for generations. They were forced for many generations to live this surreal existence, pretending to be whatever others imagined them to be in order to make them feel good about themselves; only doing as they are told regardless of their capability – I have to highlight that this was for many generations.

    Let’s pause – do you know what that is like. Do you have personal or any other experience that would inform you and make you an expert on how that should impact a human being?

    Let’s resume….

    Even after the tight reigns were loosened these people were still harassed for just existing (nothing more), for generations. YOU don’t know what that is like…. being a kid and knowing that not even your parents can protect you because they are also helpless, but still having all of your faculties and your wit and intelligence through it all.

    What was supposed to happen to them Dan? Really. This is the only question that I would like for you to expound upon. You seem to feel that what resulted is not good enough for you. Knowing what we all know took place, what was supposed to happen? This is not TV. What’s resulted was supposed to happen. Actually, I’m shocked that the results aren’t worse.

    A huge glass was broken on top of this nation, why are you surprised that there are shards of glass everywhere? Are YOU alright?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Leighann –

    I grew up in the MS Delta. In the eighth grade I went to an all-white private school, and in the ninth I went to a school with @ 480 students – about twenty of which were white.

    The racism at the all-white school was rampant – the n-words and n-jokes were a part of nearly every kid’s daily conversation.

    However, when I went to the nearly all-black school the next year, I heard and saw very little overt racism…and this was the year that ‘Roots’ came out.

    As I’ve related, in my experience it wasn’t that the blacks had that huge a problem with having romantic relationships with whites – it’s more that the whites were afraid of being ostracized by their own color if found out…and the blacks who did so faced a long history of violent repercussions if they got romantically involved with whites.

    Yes, there’s racism among blacks too – as there are among all races and cultures…and IMO at least to a small extent in everyone. After all, being afraid of what is different is very much a part of the human experience. Just remember that it will take many more generations before the blacks forget what we did to them – and if you don’t think that’s the case, look at the hatred that divides many cultures even today over events that happened centuries ago.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug –

    You accused me of cherry-picking because (1) you claimed (without providing a reference) that Grayson county had lower unemployment than Kitsap county, that Grayson county had a lower crime rate, and that Grayson county had a lower cost of living.

    How about providing your reference ‘proving’ that Grayson county had a higher percentage of college graduates than Kitsap county.

    Why?

    (1) Such is highly unlikely when comparing a rural county to a more urbanized one.

    (2) Such is nearly impossible when the rural county also has a significantly higher poverty rate.

    (3) And when much of the employment in the urban county involves the basing, maintenance and upkeep of a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier and several ballistic-missile subs (on the only naval shipyard on the West Coast capable of doing so)…

    No, Doug – you’d better check your references again.

    If you’ll check, I AGREED that Grayson county had a lower crime rate…so how could that be ‘cherry-picking’? Of course, I might be able to make the case that those in rural counties are less likely to report a crime than those in urban counties.

    And if I didn’t include the fact that you have a lower cost of living, really, Doug, does that ONE thing (since your other two points are thus far ineffectual) somehow invalidate the whole of the differences?

    No.

    And if you’ll recall, I said that I have no doubt of how nice life is in Grayson county to you because of my own experience in even MORE rural Sunflower county. It’s just that I don’t like being wrongly accused of ‘cherry-picking’.

    Facts. References. Proof. Evidence, please if you’re going to accuse me of ‘cherry-picking’.

  • Doug Hunter

    Glenn, I accuse you of cherrypicking because out of courtesy to your repeated requests for my personal data I gave you the information. I live in Denton county but in a rural portion near Grayson county. I listed both so you would have a better idea of my location (and I’m not going further with my exact address)

    Denton county has 689 people/mile
    Kitsap county has 598
    Grayson has 127

    Populationwise Denton and Kitsap are much closer but you chose not to make that comparison because Denton beats Kitsap in almost every listed statistical category. I’ll repost the data here for you:

    …………..Denton TX……….Kitsap, WA
    Med. Income….$71,109 …………$57,474
    Med. House……$195K …………..$205K
    Unemploy 2004….4.4% ……………5.9%
    Bach Degrees…..36.6%……………25.3%
    Population…….612K ……………236K
    In Poverty 2007…7.2%……………8.5%
    Murder in 2yr….. 3…………….. 5
    Rape in 2yr …….23 ……………228
    Robbery in 2yr ….9 ……………81
    Assault in 2yr ….143……………712
    Auto theft 2yr ….88 ……………647
    (the crime figures are total numbers over two years, not per capita. You can divide Denton’s by 2.5 or so to come up with a comparable rate)

    You’re the one that pushed me to give away my location, assumed my claim about my local community applied to the entire county, and then got to cherry pick which location you wanted to compare it to. I have no interest in your little county pissing contest, but I’m not just going to stand idly by as you continue harass me on it.

  • Doug Hunter

    “How about providing your reference ‘proving’ that Grayson county had a higher percentage of college graduates than Kitsap county.”

    How about you list the post where I said anything like that or admit you’re a bald faced liar.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #481,

    I don’t worry about other people, Dan. If a person wishes to live in a segregated community (or on a mountaintop), it’s their business. Why should I get worked up by something like that (other than perhaps be concerned about it becoming a national, widespread trend – for that would mean disintegration of the community, or a nation)?

    I don’t however agree with the following:

    “The opposite of preserve would be destroy. The logical implication if you didn’t want to preserve the white race, would be that you would want to destroy the white race.”

    The position I take, it doesn’t really matter to me. People will do what they’ll do regardless. We’re already of “mixed blood” as it is; there is no “purity” to speak of.

    I suppose the reason I’m indifferent as regards this “issue” is that I don’t necessarily regard whites as superior. I’ve run against as many dumb whites as people of any other ethnic origin and blood lines – more perhaps; consequently, I’m going here by my life experience rather than genetic theories.

    So in spirit therefore, and also in matters of practice, I tend to agree with Zedd – in that my friends and acquaintances happen to those people with whom we share a certain affinity and common interests, and of course intelligence. And all those qualities cut across the racial or ethnic divide.

    In short, I see people as people and I act accordingly, irrespective of their gender or skin color.

  • zingzing

    roger: “In short, I see people as people and I act accordingly, irrespective of their gender or skin color.”

    i like women better.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So do I, but I’m trying to accommodate Dan. Not certain about his sexual preferences.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Doug & Glenn: as the Comments Editor for Blogcritics I feel the need to chip in and ask you both to please take a moment to remember where you are and how we like to see people expressing themselves in the comments space.

    The alternative to a modest amount of self-restraint is me wielding the big bad editorial hammer on your comments, a prospect we could all do without…

  • Doug Hunter

    You’re right Chris. My comments are out of hand, I just can’t understand why he is so determined to tear apart my comment that basically I thought the area where I live is nice… and it is. I never intended a statistical pissing contest but I have difficulty just letting it go.

  • zingzing

    “Not certain about his sexual preferences.”

    white.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol zing. making all the threads amusing.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Chris Rose –

    Look very closely at MY posts. Have I used disrespectful language? Have I insulted him in ANY way? Have I made ANY false accusations? He switched counties on me and I didn’t catch it, so I thought he was still referring to Grayson county…but is that something intentional, or is that a simple stupid human mistake? You can ask Dave and Clavos how readily I’ve owned up to mistakes in the past. But there’s a BIG difference between an UNintentional mistake and an INtentional attack.

    Chris, if you want to bring out the editorial hammer, that’s your right – but before you hammer me with it, please show me where I broke the rules of good conduct and decorum.

    You might see an opportunity to do so in my next reply wherein I am losing my own temper with Doug’s patently false accusations…but unlike the other guy, I provide PROOF.

    So I ask you – those of us who post on BC, if we are falsely accused, do we have the right to publicly defend ourselves? For that’s what I’m doing in the post immediately following this one.

    If you want me to provide proof against Doug, I can readily do so – and there’s a lot of it (including comments on his conduct by other longtime BC residents). I make no idle boast. If you still want to break out the hammer on me, however, please make sure you can see where I DID do that which is wrong.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    EXCUSE you, Doug –

    Glenn, I accuse you of cherrypicking because out of courtesy to your repeated requests for my personal data I gave you the information.

    DID I ASK FOR YOUR PERSONAL DATA? HERE is my request:

    There is only one factor that keeps me from asking what county you live in – your privacy – because I learned the hard way a long time ago that one should not use their real name in a public forum online, and I’m assuming that yours is your real name. Please do not mention your county – but I’d like to know which state you’re from so I can verify your claims.

    I later said that what I would do is choose the very best county in your state and compare that county’s stats to your claims of NO homelessness, FULL employment, poverty visible only on the extremes, residents can “qualify for adequate government services at every income level, free meals (at little or no cost) to anyone who needs them, basically-free county college.

    I did NOT ask for your personal data! I did NOT WANT your personal data! I SPECIFICALLY ASKED you to NOT provide your personal data! But you accuse me of repeatedly asking you for it. All I ever DID ask you for was your state…and if that’s too personal for you….

    Yeah, when YOU switched examples from one county to another I missed it! And the very fact that I still mentioned GRAYSON county is proof of it! But you’re ALSO accusing me of ‘cherry picking’ MY OWN doggone county!

    Good grief!

    By the way – your own stats bragging about Denton county PROVE PRECISELY what I said about conditions as a whole improving in urban counties over rural counties – and one of those improvements being a big increase in social services not otherwise available in rural areas! Here’s a list of social services in Denton county – including Planned Parenthood and Denton County Indigent Health Care…places that not too many conservatives like to see!

    OKAY, Doug? YOU have falsely accused ME of insulting you (in a different thread), YOU have falsely accused me of ‘cherry-picking’, YOU have falsely accused me of asking for YOUR personal information which I specifically asked that you NOT provide.

    Beginning now, Doug, I will not reply to your attacks. I may refer to you in my attacks towards others, but not to you. Goodbye, Doug.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    man.

    “my attacks towards others” should read “my replies towards others”. Apologies to all.

  • Zedd

    zing you are so funny! I am constantly laughing at your posts.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right, about “white” being Dan’s sexual orientation.

  • Zedd

    Glenn,

    You are kinda loosing it.

  • Doug Hunter

    I still love you Glenn.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    Sorry – a long time ago due to a false accusation I came within one word (‘guilty’ or ‘innocent’) of losing my Navy career…and everything that’s meant to me and my family.

    So as a result, false accusations really push my buttons. If I’m guilty of something I’ll own up to it publicly…but it’s very hard to keep my temper when someone falsely accuses me on several occasions.

    So to all not directly involved in this current spat, please accept my sincere apologies. We’ve all got better things to do.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Yeah, when YOU switched examples from one county to another I missed it! ”

    You also missed where I told you my state to begin with in #325. Maybe we should try and read each other’s posts more carefully from now on. You have a wonderful weekend.

  • Doug Hunter

    Now you have peaked my interest and I must pry. If you feel it’s proper do you care to speak more of this Navy experience? Being falsely accused is something that’s always seemed sort of terrifying to me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Read some Kafka. The Trial will make your hair stand. I know you don’t put much credence in literature, but that one is a gem.

  • Zedd

    Glenn,

    You’ve made that experience have way too much power over you. More than likely those accusers don’t even remember the situation. You have but one life. Find a way to walk away from that experience and let it grow you. It seems as if it’s stunted you in some way. You’ve given those people and that experience too much power over you.

    I’m learning that not everything needs to be solved or resolved. Its perfectly alright to shrug your head and come out more loving, compassionate and powerful. It’s just life dude. We are definitely going to die. Live right now and live well. Expand your scope.

  • Dan

    “I will say that I am still very careful around black people until I figure out if they are okay with me or not. I do not know if it is logical to be this way but is out of habit now, I guess.”—Leighann

    Yep, Many whites have had similar experiences. If nothing else, black children learn a exaggerated sense of grievance in schools. Double standards of behavior are the norm.

    It’s hard to believe that this country, founded on principles of freedom of association, forced children to be bussed into hostile, and sometimes violent enviroments.

    No one defends it now.

    “I think (hope) that Dan is trying to say that it is okay to be proud of being white just as it is okay to be proud of being of any other race and sometimes it seems as if people think that it is okay to embrace your culture and heritage as long as it is not white(because then you should be ashamed). There is a lot to be ashamed of and I feel bad that my ancestors did the things that they did, but I can do nothing about it but try to be better than that and do whatever I can to make sure it stops with my generation. But can I be white and proud?”

    There is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. The entire racial paradigm is a sham. Shame is what bad people use to manipulate you with.

    If it were a contest, whites should be the proudest of all. But pride in co-racial peoples achievements is a false concept. Just as shame in co-racial failures. You’re an individual and your personal sense of pride or shame should be limited to you. It sounds like, to me, you should be proud. Figuring out ways to cope with societal folly while still staying positive is an achievement.

  • Zedd

    I remember when we first arrived here in the 70’s. I had been born into I suppose what one would call a perfect family. We had family night every Friday and would go see some fantastic place. Even though we lived under apartheid and experienced all the silliness of it, my parents made us feel as if we were above it. We lived the Ozzie and Harriet experience. My mom even wore the cute organza pinafores and wore gloves to church or formal situations. They had a circle of family friends who were the same as us and many who were much more well off. My maternal family is/was well educated and lived well. My paternal family was genetically disposed to liking nice things so even though not to many had university degrees, they lived well and always dress finely. We had a lovely middle class existence, help in the home (common at home for middle class). We lived in a mid-century modern designed home that was designed by my dads friend a Dutch Architect. It had lovely teak cabinets and funky concrete floors that had this psychedelic design. Anyway… South Africa was a beautiful modern country. We went on lovely picnics at the zoo and had a beautiful family brunch on Sundays. My mom would make sure we were washed up and change our clothes for super. Most of my friends had never gone to any place where a modicum of traditional life is lived. In SA “traditional life” really does need to be in quotations. But none-the-less, when we would visit the country, our friends would ask us questions about he people as if they were people from another planet.

    Anyway when arriving to America, I felt as if I had walked into a really bizarre sort of surreal dream. In EVERYONES eyes, I was this person who came from this poor place. I was experiencing modernity for the first time; that I was constantly asked in a wide eyed manner what I thought about the most basic things. They truth is, our lifestyle had diminished tremendously and the city that we were in was far smaller and certainly lacked the cosmopolitan feel of Jo’burg.

    I lived with the weird penguin holing for most of my life in The States. No matter how much I tried to explain that I don’t know THAT Africa, it didn’t matter. I’d get a pitying smile, a nod and a placating comment which was the equivalent of a pat on the back and a “that’s nice kid, (the poor thing)”.

    I’ve lived my life being “accused” wrongly as a Black person and an African in America. I could go kookoo rip my clothes and run screaming down the street naked but I have got to find joy in my everyday life. I have no choice. So I have found a way to communicate who I am in my own way and walk away without too much concern about whether I am believed.

    Just sharing.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    I get that feeling in the opposite direction every single time I go overseas to a third-world country (the Philippines mostly, but I’ve seen the same in lots of other countries) and find nicer, higher-class places than any here in America north of, say, San Francisco.

    I think back to how I was raised to believe that America had the very best of everything…and then finding out that’s not the case, no, not by a long shot.

  • Dan

    “I posted what I posted in order for you to realize just how tiny minded your aversion to people because of their epidermis is AND now locked in you are. Did you get that?”—zedd

    I think it’s fair to point out that your previous opinion of my motivations were fear and hatred. Now I’m downgraded to “tiny minded”. Maybe you are “getting it”

    “Now remember that I posted “you break it, you fix it”.”

    It can’t be fixed. Not in the way liberals would like. That is what the more informed and honest social scientist say, until they are blackballed. And I didn’t break it. It was broke to start with. (in a manner of speaking). My contribution to fixing it has been second class citizenship. I’m weary of that.

    “Whites in America’s past made a mess with the race thing, especially towards Africans and Native Americans.”

    Africans and Native Americans would have made the same mistakes if they would have been technologically advanced. What’s not clear is if they would have attempted to fix them, as whites have.

    Of course, you subscribe to a different version of history. Would you call it a “mess” when Indians conspired to slaughter the Jamestown settlers who attempted to come to America to ‘work hard for a better life’, as Mexicans do now?

    I guess the Indians must’ve not gotten the word that diversity is strength.

    “You know that Africans who arrived here with their own systems and norms were forced violently not to practice those norms and to pretend to be livestock for the benefit of Whites, for generations.”

    Blacks were treated as property, white indentured servants; as rentals.

    Have you ever wondered how free black southern slaveholders treated their property? Or is that not in the Afro-centric curriculum. The 1850 US Census records some 10,000 slaves owned by 3000 free blacks.

    I wonder who would pay and receive the repairations on that one?

    “Let’s pause – do you know what that is like.” (being a slave)

    Surely you can’t tell me. Can you?

    “Even after the tight reigns were loosened these people were still harassed for just existing (nothing more), for generations. YOU don’t know what that is like”

    Are you channeling them, or reincarnated or something?

    “What was supposed to happen to them Dan? Really. This is the only question that I would like for you to expound upon.”

    If you mean the slaves who were freed, a small percentage elected to return to Africa. Liberia was purchased for them. Some scattered to the North, and a large percentage stayed on the plantations, with their former masters, as hired help.

    I wonder if anyone’s ever looked in to how the descendants of former slaves in Liberia made out?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Glenn. Perhaps it isn’t anymore. What shall we blame it on? The people? I don’t have any answers. Sorry though that SF and the Bay Area, my favorite part of the country, were necessarily included in the mix.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    When it comes to that event having too much power over me…yes, perhaps it does. Perhaps I have to work on it.

    Perhaps the hardest lesson to learn was when one night my wife and I was walking along and some kid maybe 18 y.o. said something very, very insulting to my wife and myself. I wanted so bad to go beat that kid to a pulp (and yes, I could have done so)…but my wife convinced me to just stay with her and let it go.

    Later I understood her logic, her wisdom in that I didn’t know if that kid had a weapon, and I didn’t know if that kid could somehow find where we lived if I confronted him. They were words, just words…and she showed me that those words weren’t worth all the trouble that could have come from me giving him the beating he so richly deserved.

    So I do understand what you mean, and I’ve learned such lessons before. Maybe this is a lesson I need to learn…or maybe not. I’ll have to think about it for a long time.

    But in any case I really do appreciate your observation and constructive criticism – for if one cannot receive criticism, how can he learn to improve? It’s like chess – one can’t learn and improve without losing sometimes.

    Again, thanks.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    I wonder if anyone’s ever looked in to how the descendants of former slaves in Liberia made out?

    I’ve heard comments along that line before…in essence “see how lucky they were that we brought them over and made them slaves? Otherwise they’d still be stuck in Africa!”

    The ones I heard such thoughts from were always racist. Always.

    I ask you, Dan – given a choice, would you (along with your wife and any children and grandchildren you may have) prefer to have a fairly stable life as a slave here in America…or to be sent to Africa to make your own way?

    Most men I know would rather be free men in utter poverty than to be slaves in a mansion. How about you?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t think, Dan, the argument is about whites being better than blacks or the Native Americans or vice versa. All human beings are equally capable of equal atrocities and injustices toward their own or another kind. Do you really think that Zedd is arguing that point?

    On the other hand, can you seriously deny that being transplanted and enslaved bears well on the human psyche – white, black or what else have you? Whoever is the oppressor and the oppressed – never mind the skin color – there’s bound to be consequences.

  • Dan

    “I don’t however agree with the following:

    “The opposite of preserve would be destroy. The logical implication if you didn’t want to preserve the white race, would be that you would want to destroy the white race.”

    The position I take, it doesn’t really matter to me. People will do what they’ll do regardless. We’re already of “mixed blood” as it is; there is no “purity” to speak of.”—Roger

    I’m not following why you disagree with that statement Roger. You were telling me that people were “aroused” by the “yes of course” answer I gave to the question “should the white race be saved?”. I took it to mean they objected to it.

    If in fact, people objected to it, then it seems obvious that they would be for the extinction of the white race. Of course they wouldn’t bluntly say so, but hatred is a coward.

    I left room for your vote of indifference. Which would mean you didn’t care one way or the other. But then that wouldn’t seem to be cause for arousal, or objection if someone else did think “saving the white race” was cool.

    I think I’m pretty much caucasian. I don’t know for sure, I’ve never had my gene markers tested. It doesn’t matter to me. (surprised?) Perhaps white separatists wouldn’t take me. I think African Americans are said to be between 70 and 80% African.

    “In short, I see people as people and I act accordingly, irrespective of their gender or skin color.”

    me too.

  • Dan

    “Not certain about his sexual preferences.”

    “white.”

    She’s fabulously white. Blond hair and blue eyes, gives purpose to any article of clothing in a Victoria Secret catalog, and a model wife and mother.

    May be the best reason I can think of for “preserving the white race”.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I have no way of knowing why some would object. I don’t know what’s in their mind. I have no problem with white segregation, in general, or whatever decisions individuals care to make.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    What are you arguing? Either you have really poor reasoning abilities or you are really good at burying your head in the sand. I made my point. There is nothing to argue about.

    I asked you what you thought the turn out under such circumstances would be for these millions of Americans. You ran away either because you are dense and got lost in the middle of your response or you simply dodged the issue because you think you are so clever that you can ramble illogically and it will suffice.

    Listen. You don’t have to respond to my question. What I know is that if you have an ounce of sense, you have more insight today on the topic and you will be changed. That’s all that matters.

    Roger is right. No one was arguing about color (that’s your gig). I was talking about a situation that actually took place and the REAL results of it.

    On the Native Americans…. how old are you any way? That was unacceptable. How do you engage with an adult on a political forum and make such a “point”. The same about the Liberian comment. Have you been under a rock?

    None-the-less, you got my point. I wont engage you because you need to sharpen your wit and I cant be bothered with your seventh grader tit for tat arguing style. I mean really Dan.

    Thanks for the dialogue. Oh and I am not a Liberal. What are you talking about?

  • Zedd

    I think African Americans are said to be between 70 and 80% African.

    ??????

  • Zedd

    Glen,

    I’m constantly trying to grow too. I grown just reading your post. Dan’s preoccupation with a meaningless idea has also challenged me to look at what things I value that are completely small and basically inconsequential

  • Dan

    “I ask you, Dan – given a choice, would you (along with your wife and any children and grandchildren you may have) prefer to have a fairly stable life as a slave here in America…or to be sent to Africa to make your own way?”

    Thats a tough one Glenn. If I were returned to make my own way in a stable environment with adequate resources, I would choose the freedom. But if it meant re-engaging in tribal wars with the hazard of being re-enslaved, probably without my family, and then bought and sent to a much less humanitarian slave system, then I guess I would stay put, work hard, and curry favor.

  • Dan

    “I don’t think, Dan, the argument is about whites being better than blacks or the Native Americans or vice versa. All human beings are equally capable of equal atrocities and injustices toward their own or another kind. Do you really think that Zedd is arguing that point?”

    I kind of doubt she’s ever considered it. That’s why I brought it up for discussion.

    It was a different time. Humanity was coming from an age of barbarism. Have you ever given thought to what things might be like had another race other than whites achieved technological advantage?

    My thought is that if you think of all races as being equal in altruism and wickedness then things would have turned out roughly the same, but with different colors. It would have still been a hard hump for humanity to get over.

    Looking at it through that perspective, one might say whites are being blamed for being first.

    “On the other hand, can you seriously deny that being transplanted and enslaved bears well on the human psyche – white, black or what else have you? Whoever is the oppressor and the oppressed – never mind the skin color – there’s bound to be consequences.”

    There are always consequences. What about the consequence of white people choosing to live as equals with other races instead of booting them or exterminating them? That wasn’t a choice made by other races. Has that worked out well for whites? In light of how talk of “saving the white race” has now become point of controversy.

  • Leighann

    “If it were a contest, whites should be the proudest of all.”

    I disagree. I think that white people should be able to be white and be proud of who they are but not feel that they are better than anyone. Noone should think that they are better than anyone else for any reason especially reasons such as race, socio-economic status, gender, or religion just to name a few. We are all just imperfect people.

    As I said (just about half asleep last night), I was treated badly by some in my school but there were just as many students who were very good to me. There was hardly ever a time when those incidents happened that there were not others stepping up to defend me who did not even know me. They saw the unfairness of the situation and were angered by it.

    I do have my own tendencies toward racism and I do my best to overcome them becuase I try to love people and I often find that we have much more in common than that that is different.

    From a Christian perspective, I can not say that I love God and hate my brother becuase if I do then I am a liar (somewhere in First John).

    I do not even know where I am going with this except to say that I do not want my post to be misunderstood. I love black people. I think they are beautiful, tan people too. White people too. When I posted, I was thinking of the comment someone had made about how people who live in desegragated areas can have more negative feelings about other races than people who are segragated. From my experiences, I can see how that could be.

    When I moved to White Town, TN, I did not hear as many racial slurs and jokes as there were is Mobile. Here people just did not like each other on account of their socio-economic status. There is always something.

  • Leighann

    While we are on the topic, I thought I would tell a funny story:

    I came home and told my 6 year old son that I had gotten a speeding ticket. He then asked me if it were a white cop or a brown cop. I told him it was a white cop. I was wondering why he asked but before I could ask him he said, “Oh Good, becuase those brown cops are mean.” I could not believe what he was saying and immediately began explaining to him that he could not base how nice or mean someone is on skin color. Before I could even get the sentence out he rolled his eyes at me and said “Oh my goodness mom, I was trying to ask you if he was driving a tan car or a white car. What is wrong with you?”

    I really felt dumb, I guess he heard somewhere that state troopers are mean.

  • Dan

    “None-the-less, you got my point. I wont engage you because you need to sharpen your wit and I cant be bothered with your seventh grader tit for tat arguing style. I mean really Dan.”

    Zedd, I sincerely don’t mean to upset you with the tit for tat style. It’s just that we are on such opposite ends of the spectrum, and I feel like you have so many premises that I disagree with that I need to seperate and address them as I go. I was thinking it might be less confusing that way.

    I’d like to think you have a different opinion of my views than the one you may have started with. I’m really trying to be honest and not a smart ass… even if it reads that way to you.

    We’re always told of the need for a dialogue on race, and this is a real one. So I guess it has to get messy.

    I have to go away for a few days, so I won’t be around. Even in disagreement you have an interesting perspective. So I’d like to think we can call it a draw for now.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I think African Americans are said to be between 70 and 80% African.

    ??????

    I won’t presume to answer any of those question marks, Zedd, but I am reminded of one of Lenny Henry’s characters, the lusty soul singer Theophilus P. Wildebeest.

    Henry, as Wildebeest, would pick some girl out of the audience, serenade her with a brief song containing more innuendo than three seasons of Are You Being Served, then ask her:

    “Have you got any African in you?”
    “No.”
    “Would you like some?”

  • Dan

    Leighann, that is a funny story.

    I want to call it to your attention that in my last post to you, I pretty clearly pointed out that in my view, pride in ones race is a false concept. As I said then, the only thing someone ought to take pride or shame in is what they accomplish or fail at as an individual. Although I suppose you could be proud of other individual people.

    If you come around here attributing a line like “white people should be the most proud” out of context it can cause a lot of grief.

    Talking about racial things makes people edgy.

    goodnight.

  • Dan

    “I think African Americans are said to be between 70 and 80% African.

    ??????”

    that is what the average amount of African ancestory is for people who self identify as African American.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    that is what the average amount of African ancestory is for people who self identify as African American.

    Given that in the slavery era a lot of the mixing that went on was ‘unofficial’, how can we possibly be sure, short of DNA-profiling everybody, what their ancestry is?

  • Dan

    Random sampling I guess.

    There’s more than one number that circulates. Don’t know the sample sizes/msrgin of error.

  • Cannonshop

    Glenn, part of your problem IS where you grew up, and part of it, is that this navel-gazing attitude and obsession with race make you feel better about yourself-it makes you feel…enlightened compared to your original environment.

    That’s a damn dangerous condition, Glenn.

    It’s damn dangerous, because it is a False enlightenment.

    Race/racism will continue to be a divisive, hot-button topic for as long as it takes to get people to realize that you don’t hate someone because of what they look like or where they’re from, or what god or gods they worship, or because someone told you to hate them.

    You hate somebody because you Know that Person. You hate them because they’re obnoxious, or arrogant, or lazy, or just a total and complete Douchebag. Until you stop thinking of other people as “Groups” or “Demographics”, you’re going to be a servant of useless prejudices-and that’s whether you spend all your time serving them (as some jackass in a white sheet, or some jackass wearing a Black Panther pin does), or you serve them your life away by spending it looking for (and inventing) reasons to be apalled and continue seeing people not as who they are, but as the labels that are easy and convenient.

    If you can’t get over deciding who you like based on some demographic garbage, you’re basically never going to be able to handle people on a truly individual level, whether liking them, or despising them.

    There was a gentleman who put it nicely and succinctly, he was from Oxford, If I recall correctly, he spoke to a big crowd of people quite a while before I was born.

    He said something to the effect of judging people on the content of their character, as opposed to the colour of their skin.

    I’m not sure, but you might’ve heard of him…fella was a Christian Minister (okay, well, that might be a strike against him, seeing as religion’s kind of a delusional state anyway…), named Martin Luther King.

    HE actually FACED real, serious, actual racism. INstitutionalized, established, powerful, virulent, evil fucking racism, the REAL THING, not some cooked up half-assed bullshit excuse to feel morally superior or victimized, he faced the actual, nasty stuff.

  • STM

    Zedd, I know where you’re coming from (literally and figuratively) because you’re part of “our club”.

    And race doesn’t mean didly squat in that club, as you know.

    On your the reaction you got in the states, I once was told by a woman in the US “that I spoke good English”.

    Of course, they were wrong about that one too :)

    I’ve spoken to Nalle and Clav on the phone and I’m sure the poor bastards couldn’t understand a word I was saying.

  • Clavos

    Actuall, Stan, as you yourself have commented, I’m becoming pretty fluent in ‘Strine…

    I remember once, when I was a teenager, a Brit friend of my parents telling me, after I had announced to him that I speak English, that, “No young man you don’t speak English at all, you speak Ameddican.”

  • STM

    You have to watch those Poms, mate.

    You do know the real reason why the sun never set on the British Empire?

    A: Because you trust an Englishman in the dark.

  • STM

    Sorry Doc, Rosey, and all the other chooms on that island on the wrong side of the world.

    Can’t ‘elp meself.

    I still think you made a grave mistake 200 years ago by sending all the worst people to the best place.

    Party central. Thanks!!

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Stan, it doesn’t begin to compare to the mistake we made in giving up the Sandwich Islands. Damn, that was stupid!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In that case, STM, even I with MY accent would be more understandable to you, mate, than vice versa.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Great story, Leighhan (#525), and good to see you back.

    Dan,

    Yes, I agree that “looking at it through that perspective, one might say whites are being blamed for being first.” (#529)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    517

    Why do I feel creepy about the way you describe your wife(?) Dan?

  • STM

    Actually Rosey, the Sandwich Islands were never ours. King kamehameha liked us, and we (and I mean us collectively as in the old Empire) had more a sphere of influence there based mostly on trade (which is really what the good part of empire was about) … so much so that he put the Union Jack in the corner of the Hawaiian flag.

    But it was never an official colony, although it could have been as the locals were up for it.

    Then the Yanks took the place over. I love it though. I love the mix of American-“ness” and Hawaiian-“ness” transplanted to the Pacific. A bit like us I suppose in a different way. The official state flag of Hawaii, BTW, still has a Union Jack in the corner.

    Had the Yanks not taken it over, I’d probably be living there right now, surfing every day at the best breaks in the world outside Oz and Indo.

    They killed old Captain Cook, too, early on, and I suspect they ate the poor bugger.

    And Rog, you’re dead right. I have no problem understanding an educated American accent (our culture is a cross between British/Irish through traditional links and since WWII American culture, through TV shows, etc). Educated American seems to be the accent of a majority of Americans. I have problems though with folk from the deep south, in places like Alabama, Tennessee and Mississipi.

    However, many of them in those states have bizarrely asked if I’m from Boston as we have similar pronunciation of many words – car and beer, for instance, which is the Irish influence translating to both over the years.

    I love the study of the language and how it’s evolved around the world. Fascinating even in Britain. In the place my grandparents are from, Northumbria (in north-east England and south-east Scotland, now Northumberland and counties like Durham), is where the Vikings settled.

    The accent in towns like Newcastle still has many common-usage words understood by Scandinavians (identical in some cases), and Scandinavians say they find it much easier to understand a northern English accent than a southern one.

    Many towns still have Viking names, and the family names that end in son – like Peterson – are of Danish (Viking) origin.

    My surname ends in Ham, which is anglo-saxon, meaning home. Loosely translated, it means Dene’s Home, or Dene’s Estate. Since I’m not a lord that I know of, I suspect the former. My first name in old Saxon means from the stony place.

    However, near my grandmother’s place, there was a small riverlet called Nelly Beck, and Beck is a Viking name for stream. Nelly was also her first name.

    We should all study our backgrounds, as far as possible, no matter where we’re from as the history can be fascinating.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Guess what, Stan. Many people when they hear me speak take me for an Aussie.

    Goes to show how little they know.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Cindy. Dan’s description of his wife was kind of creepy.

  • Clavos

    Hey, mate, I didn’t know about your background. My wife’s mother, a college professor with more than a bit of the gadabout in her, lived and taught in Northumberland for a couple of years, back in the eighties. She used to tell me that she loved to walk the cliffs above the sea on stormy nights.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sounds like a beginning of a good novel,

    Wuthering Heights comes to mind.

  • Zedd

    Cannonshop,

    “HE actually FACED real, serious, actual racism. INstitutionalized, established, powerful, virulent, evil fucking racism, the REAL THING, not some cooked up half-assed bullshit excuse to feel morally superior or victimized, he faced the actual, nasty stuff.”

    Please expound.

    Also, when is it not nasty?

    Another thing….. The Black Panther Party – they were the same as the KKK? Please explain how? Just curious.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m gonna stay out of this one. But I wouldn’t presume to know enough about Glenn, let alone anyone on this thread, to minimize their experiences.

    Enough said.

  • Zedd

    Doc,

    I love Lenny Henry as Chef Gareth Blackstock. I always thought he was gay but he’s married to Dawn French (totally hilarious!!!)? I loved her spoof of “Lord of the Rings” with Jennifer Saunders (complete madness!!). Reminds me to look for it on YouTube. They (Henry and French)are an odd mix, not because of race but overall.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If you’re referring to the “Henry, as Wildebeest” episode, it must have been hilarious.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    This is one I found:

    Mexican Standoff.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And there’s more on that site.

  • Zedd

    Dan,

    You didn’t upset me at all. I don’t feel that it got messy, just annoying. I was just jostling with you and got annoyed because you couldn’t keep up. That’s why I told you that I couldn’t be bothered. It’s not at all because your position upset me. I was rude to you however I should have come up with a better way of saying that I was frustrated at our inability to argue lucidly. I realise that you don’t get an outlet to express your conclusions about the topic of race so you crammed in a lot of stuff that didn’t fit the thread of our discussion. I also realise that you don’t know that all of the “points” that you made have been discussed, and written about thoroughly. Also, yes to what Glen said about living as a servant in the splendor of your owner’s wealth vs struggling as a free man…. Also, please know that the struggle was not unlike (if not much less in most instances) than that of the Pilgrims when they left much less persecution in England. It seemed like such an obvious thing to know. I was annoyed that that didn’t dawn on you so it caused me do dismiss your intellectual abilities.

    However, at some point I would LOVE to talk it all out. However be careful, I’m gonna enjoy it way too much. Bring your “A” game, calm down and prepare to be nibbled on a little at a time, for fun. Know that I will not be upset throughout the entire discussion so don’t approach it feeling that I’m angry. It will cloud your ability to argue reasonably. Promise not to get mad. Can’t wait.

    Oh I did get a tinge of anger about your comments on the Native Americans vs illegal aliens today.

  • Leighann

    Dan,

    Didn’t mean to take anything out of context, maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

    Roger,

    I have not really been gone. I still read (skim) many of the articles and comments, I have just not been commenting. I have not been here as often becuase I really do not have time to read much or worry about editing my many mistakes when I comment (as I am sure you can see). Since I know that we have some sticklers on here, I wish not to offend.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wouldn’t worry about that, Leighann. We’ve eased up on that considerably. My own comments are riddled with misspellings, so what? But your voice is always welcome.

  • Leighann

    I used to be much better. Spell and grammar check have ruined me and I have not figured out how to do it on here. Well, I was never great at it. Even though I am a college graduate and have only four classes left on a 60 hour masters degree which has required many papers and still one big research proposal to go, I am not good at writing (grammar). It takes me twice as long as it does others just trying to get through the editing and proofreading process! I dread this research proposal that I have to defend in front of a board! If it takes proofreading and editing, I usually try to avoid it!

  • Zedd

    Found it !

    Way too funny!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Leighann. If you’re that concerned about it, just write your comments on any word document (and they all have spellcheckers), And then simply copy it onto the dialogue/comment box.

  • zingzing

    dan: “a much less humanitarian slave system”

    yay!

    i wonder what they whip you with in humanitarian slave systems… kittens? meow?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sounds like the prisoner’s dilemma.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Apropos Chef Gareth, Zedd.

    It’s capital.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cannonshop –

    When you do something, and when you grow up doing that thing in a community where most people in your particular social circle did that same thing…

    …then you have a REAL good tendency to know it when you see other people do it.

    I never posted a self-pity trip for being a victim of racism as MLK certainly was. I WAS a victim of racism by a black guy…but you know what? I let it go, because I knew what I’d done in my own life.

    Remember, guy, you’re on the side of the guys who like songs like “Barack the Magic Negro”, who accuse our president of being an illegal alien (despite all the evidence to the contrary), who call him a Muslim (despite all the evidence to the contrary), who compare him to Hitler and claim he “pals around with terrorists”.

    You do NOT have the experience that I have in seeing EVERY side of racism. Very, very few people do. I know it when I see it, and it’s just like President Carter said – much of the attacks on Obama is indeed rooted in racism.

    Proof? What would the Dems have done to a fellow Dem who played “Steele the Magic Negro”? Whoever did would be forever personal non grata from the Dems and liberals alike (never mind the hell the Republicans would raise about it).

    But what did the Republicans do when the most powerful conservative voice in America played it on his radio station and laughed about it? “Oh, well, he really shouldn’t do that.”

    There’s your proof, C-shop. Deeds, not words.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You know, Glenn. I wasn’t even aware of that “song,” only the phrase as used here by Barger and perhaps some others. But your entry had made me look it up.

    It is a frickin’ disgrace.

    And they’re all going to stand here and argue for purity of their thought.

    What a shameful nation.

  • STM

    Rog: “Guess what, Stan. Many people when they hear me speak take me for an Aussie.”

    Bloody hell, Rog, you need to disavow them of that notion.

    It’s fraught mate!

    Mind you, could be worse: they could mistake you for an Englishman, which would be shocking.

  • STM

    Clav, it’s a ruggedly beautiful place. But bloody cold. That’s one thing I do remember very clearly. As a boy I spent eight years in the UK, much of it without my father around as he was off in bizarre places like the mid-east, so I spent a hell of a lot of time up north with my grandparents.

    In the late ’40s, they moved from further north to a little village with a proper village green and and an archery stone (for sharpening arrows!) high above the river Tees (before it gets big and wide) right on the border of Durham and Yorkshire (both counties also part of the old Danelaw) and I spent a lot of time there when I was young. My days were spent fishing or walking through the fields and old farms.

    I genuinely miss the Old Dart terribly sometimes, just because of the nostalgia aspect (I suspect there’s a genetic component to this too, as many Aussies still call it the Old Country), and I’d love to visit the graves of my gradparents, who are buried in the village church.

    The times I’ve been in the UK in the past 30 years have been mainly for business, and even when I was living there I just wasn’t able to get out of London much, and certainly not to make th trek north without a car.

    One day I’ll go back and see it all.

    Strangely, I miss Baghdad too. But I won’t be going back there in a hurry. However, it does make me really sad.

    I also miss the US, believe it not, and would live to go back again for a visit. Outside Sydney, I think San Francisco might be one of my favourite cities.

    I’m worried about Miami though -(the “borrowed” golf cart incident. “No, sorry, officer, I didn’t see who took that golf cart I’ve just woken up next to at 10am”) and the now well-documented rort involving the Aussie one-cent coins (although it couldn’t have added up to more than $20 bucks worth of grape sodas all together. Boys will be boys, eh??

    I hope there’s a statute of limitation or I’m stuffed! Also, would doing that in, say, Alabama, and then again in New York, constitute a federal crime because it’s interstate flight? Just wondering …

    In Miami, I was with two Poms. One of them was already turning lobster red and wanted to spend the day at the beach, which I advised against.

    He wouldn’t listen and we ended up spending the night at the hospital while he had his burns treated. They were so bad, his entire body was blistering. He really was sick for a week or so, and the doctor told him that it was the same as treating a burns patient.

    He did come good though. We also got lots of free food after he rang a rich bloke with a boat and told him his mother knew a woman she’d met at contra-puntal flower arranging classes in London who’d met another woman whose daughter had once known this guy’s wife’s second cousin, and could we meet up?

    So they took us out on their boat and put on a spread of turkey, ham, prawns (shrimp), lobster, and every kind of goodie you could imagine – including good beer and French shampoo.

    We took a fair bit of it away with us too, since we’d been existing on a diet of processed ham sandwiches to save money in our cheap hotel in South Beach.

    Ah, them was the days! I’ll get back there one day too, and hopefully catch up with you guys.

    I want to see what you look like in real life with that titfer on :)

  • STM

    And you know what Clav, I’ve wondered for years about the English as a nation of seafarers.

    Apart from then being a nation of shopkeepers who love to trade and it being and island nation, the Viking connection makes sense …. especially when folks like the Angles, Saxons and Jutes also arrived by sea – as did the Normans, who were just Vikings who’d settled in France (check out the Norman longboats in the Bayeuax tapestry … it’s telling. They look identical to Viking longships.)

    All of which should interest you, being a Mexican/Irish/Viking, whose ancestors took a wrong turn and ended up in Guadalajara :)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    I hear things are a bit dusty over in your neck of the woods, to the point that the sky turns completely black in midday – I hope everything’s okay there…stay safe, friend.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    check out the Norman longboats in the Bayeuax tapestry … it’s telling. They look identical to Viking longships.

    I’ve seen pictures of the tapestry before, but I never made that connection – thanks!

  • Clavos

    Stan,

    Mate, the Irish and the Vikings between them pretty much have seafaring as their own private bailiwick. Sure, the Phoenicians are rumored to have mucked about in boats, but they were just peddlers traveling from market to market on a large pond, not real mariners like St. Brendan and the other Immram heroes, and later, Eric The Red and his even more famous son, Leif Ericson.

    Any real Irishman knows Columbus was an also-ran.

    It runs in me veins (both sides), mate.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    I don’t know about seafaring being a ‘private bailiwick’ – check out the history of China’s Zheng He, and then there’s the history of the people of Madagascar whose language (according to Jared Diamond in “Guns, Germs, and Steel”) proves that at some point in antiquity they must have migrated from Indonesia.

    But crossing the Atlantic in a longboat – one must admit that’s an adventure worthy of song.

  • Clavos

    Zheng He’s voyages took place a thousand years after Brendan’s.

    The Indonesians’ voyage, according to Diamond, was a matter of short, coastal segments interspersed with island-hopping — not a blue water voyage. Plus, it’s Diamond’s theory; other than the language there is no evidence of its having taken place.

    Brendan, on the other hand, sailed a leather boat, Glenn, and not just across the Atlantic, across the North Atlantic…

    The Vikes and the Micks have it, hands down.

    Diamond’s book is one of the best in the field I’ve ever read. I’ve read it twice now, and will probably go for a third soon.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    *chuckle*

    Me mum’s side hails from the Maddens of County Cork (we don’t talk much about the Clark side of the family (it’s said in whispers that they still wave the Union Jack)) – so next chance I have, I’ll raise me a Guinness to Brendan!

    I stand corrected and gladly so!

  • STM

    The other interesting thing is that down this neck of the woods, Cook thought he was on voyages of discovery … except the polynesians had been sailing backwards and forwards between Hawaii, Tahiti, New Zealand and the Marquesas for centuries before, using only the sun and stars as navigating tools. And doing it damn well.

    Even the lost boats – the ones that ended up on Easter Island – found a decent home … for a while.

    And of course, down here polynesian culture isn a big part of our own culture, and especially in New Zealand where the Maori make up a fair proportion of the population. A fair percentage of Europeans in the North Island have some Maori blood too.

    They are fierce competitors on the rugby field … which says everything about them, really. The bastards break you in half, break your nose, then feed and water (beer) you like long lost mates afterwards.

    If you ever wanted anyone to be on the same side as you (and they were, Clav, in your nasty bit of unpleasantness), it would be the Kiwis.

    Also, Glenn, my mum’s family was originally from Cork. Her name was Colleen Bridget. Doesn’t get much more Irish than that. My grandfather’s name was Paddy. Her mum was of English/German background, though, not sure of how far back but in the 1800s the Germans were one of the largest migrant groups to Britain.

    Surprisingly, they were also one of the largest migrant groups to Australia, and set up the wine industry here in the 1800s in South Australia. Even today, every second person in SA has a German sounding name (although many of them anglicised them at the start of WWI).

  • STM

    Glenn: “(it’s said in whispers that they still wave the Union Jack)

    Nothing wrong with that old boy :) … should be more of it. They’re a huge part of our heritage, all of us that is, even for you guys on the other side of the big pond. We are who we are, whether we like it or not. I reckon the world would be a much worse place without them having been in it, despite all their failings, idiosyncracies and eccentricities (and they are legion!)

    When you look at it honestly, they have given us everything we’ve got – out systems of government, our freedoms, our legal system, and most importantly, rule of law. Compare the way of life they gave us to, say, that offered by the absolutism of the Spanish monarchs or the tyrannies of the French. And in your case, even the prodigal son comes back to the table – as well he might, since now owns most of the blood thing :)

  • STM

    Glenn, the dust storm was eerie, to say the least. At dawn through to about 11am, the city was bathed in a red-yellow light. The dust was blown in from the bush by gale-force westerly winds, and there’s plenty of it around as we’ve been in drought for years. Also, the dust herev is red … it’s the iron ore in the ground.

    But mate, at least the car-washing joints are making an absolute fortune.

    And all that money going around keeps more people in jobs, which is good.

    Mind you, it did have an apocalyptic feel to it. The ferries weren’t running and flights were being diverted to other capital cities for some hours.

    Asthmatics suffered worst, but everyone was coughing and spluttering. I drove to work instead of taking the train, which I’ve been doing lately to avoid the parking rangers, so I spent most of the day indoors.

    By the next day, it had all blown out to sea.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    I’m glad to see your positive attitude towards the dust storm – because you obviously have the mindset that it’s not so bad, that it certainly could have been worse.

    In the typhoon that hit Manila – over a half meter in twelve hours – our house and car were in about 1.5 meters of muddy water…and you know what? My brother-in-law was pretty bummed about it, and I told him hey – we lost no family, we lost no home…we’re very fortunate (blessed, actually), and we should be grateful instead.

    Take care, mate –

    Glenn

  • Glenn Contrarian

    STM –

    Also, when it comes to the Union Jack – that’s just me giving voice to the same kind of attitude many American Southerners give to Yankees…because when push comes to shove you know we’re all on the same side. After all, where did we get the Magna Carta?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan, I just read that some environmentalist twit is trying to put the willies up everyone by claiming that the dust storm contained radioactive dust from the uranium mines in the outback.

    Never mind that uranium is too heavy to blow very far, or that by the time it reached the coast it’d be so diluted in all the other dust that whatever radioactivity it brought with it would probably be far lower than the natural background radiation.

    Those photos were surreal, though – having been there and seeing places likethe Harbour Bridge and Bondi shrouded in that Martian glow. It was like the closing scene of Mad Max.

  • STM

    Mate, it serious WAS the most bizarre thing I’ve ever seen. Some of my mates in the country were laughing, because they get dust storms all the time … but this was doozy. People woke up and thought it was the end of the world – seriously.

    Even my daughter was freaking out at the red-yellow light. They had been doing some controlled bushfire burns (hazard reduction) in some of the national parks north of here, and I thought it was smoke from that so I wasn’t worried, but it was spooky for sure. It was like a red-yellow London pea-souper fog, or one of those things that rolls in in about 5 minutes up San Francisco Bay.

    None of them are red-yellow and look like the aftermath of a nuclear attack, though :)

  • STM

    Glenn: “After all, where did we get the Magna Carta?”

    The same place you most of the Bill of Rights amendments to the Constitution of the US.

    Even the enlightened French thinkers influencing the constitution based their politcal views on their experiences of living in England, which because of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 was being run by the people’s elected representatives in parliament rather than a king now stripped of power and having an executive role similar to that of a US president (but with less power!).

    For that reason, they saw that as “superior” (Voltaire especially but not him alone), compared to the absolutism of th French monarchy and the religious intolerance of the French clergy and its ties to Rome.

    Which is why the French revolution, unlike the American, was such a powderkeg.

    King George was an aberration: apart from being a crackpot, he illegally medled in parliament by setting up his own little coterie of MPs whowere there to do his bidding.

    That included the war with America.

    What a lot of Americans don’t understand is that they didn’t actually win the revolution on the battlefield. George wanted to continue it after the defeat at Yorktown – and certainly did have the means to do so – but the whigs in parliament came to power and the majority had been a) anti-war with America (believing it wrong to fight a quasi civil war against their own brethren) and b) believed quite vehemently in self-government for America abd rhe right of Americans to decide their own future, and voted to discontinue it.

    When you study and weigh up the battles, even with the French involved, it was a mighty close run thing that could have gone the other way had George’s mob won the day and continued the war.

    My view: Americans weren’t an oppressed people at the time of the revolution, far from it, although they were taxed odiously in some areas and wanted less government interference.

    What they were fighting for was not liberty – a great rallying cry but they already had that as the English had always been champions of liberty themselves, and the laws of the colonies didn’t change much afterwards. American common and criminal law is virtually identical to the criminal law of both Britain and its former colonies.

    They were,. however, fighting for independence, as the great statesman Benjamin Disraeli believed … and the two are very different things.

    My personal view: Americans had every right to decide their own destiny, and should have been given it without any bloodshed whatsoever.

    They were fighting for

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Even the enlightened French thinkers influencing the constitution based their politcal views on their experiences of living in England, which because of the Glorious Revolution of 1688 was being run by the people’s elected representatives in parliament rather than a king now stripped of power and having an executive role similar to that of a US president (but with less power!).

    For that reason, they saw that as “superior” (Voltaire especially but not him alone), compared to the absolutism of th French monarchy and the religious intolerance of the French clergy and its ties to Rome.”

    Good point!

    I wasn’t aware of the extent to which the ideological exponents of the French Revolution were influenced by their practical experiences with, and exposure to, the English parliamentary system.

    Most history books tend to be rather silent on this matter.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan @ #578:

    Every once in a while, if the wind’s in the right direction, the south of England gets the remnants of a Saharan dust storm. Nothing like what got dumped on Sydney – the dust is yellowy-brown, for one thing, rather than red – but it is strange to walk outside and see the suburbs covered in a fine layer of sand, as if everywhere were a block from the beach!

  • STM

    Doc: “Every once in a while, if the wind’s in the right direction, the south of England gets the remnants of a Saharan dust storm”

    Bloody hell mate, Saharan dust storm – that’s some serious bloody shit. Nice to be in south-east England though and imagine you’re at sunny Bond-eye.

    Rog, I didn’t realise just how much that was the case until a few years back when I started to study a bit of American political history.

    I realise our democracies are slightly different in form – although not very – yet the function is, to all intents and purposes, identical. Seriously, Americans living here report not noticing and NOTICEABLE difference, if you get my driftt, in say how people stand up to government and how the press takes up issues and causes and attacks greedy corporations (and their practises) and lousy individuals and supports different political candidates without fear or favour. Although free speech is not implicitly mentioned in our constitution, the High Court continues to rule that since it existed prior to federatuion and goes back to the English tradition along with many other things protected say through common law or statute rather than in written constitutional form, its existence is implied in our constitutition and therefore it exists in all its glory.

    See, old mate, different paths can take you to the same destination – which I find fascinating.

    The key to it all, of course, is rule of law.

    And the notion that no man is above it: A Prime Minister of Australia, a President of the United States, or the Queen of England.

    We are indeed all very, very lucky people. And what we have is worth fighting for (if it’s done for the right and good reasons).

    Glenn …. been reading about the Filipino flooding. Sounds a bit drastic there mate.

    Hope you and yours are OK and they can salvage some of what’s been messed up in the floodwaters.

    Cheers bud … good luck.

    Like I say, different

  • Cannonshop

    #561 Well, Glenn, I suppose that song’s right up there with wanting to hate-fuck Sarah Palin’s daughter *(Your side, and on a nationally broadcast show no less-TELEVISED.)

    As for your fictional comparison, I’d expect a Dem version would be “Steele the Uncle Tom”, and it would probably get heavy rotation on morning shows in major markets. ’cause that’s how your friends on the left roll.

    What it wouldn’t get, of course, is labeled “Racist” by the left.

  • Dan

    All regular Rush Limbaugh devotees know that The term ‘Barack the magic negro’ was first coined by L.A. Times columnist, David Ehrenstein.

    Always one step ahead, Rush was quite properly mocking the double standard that a liberal editorial columnist was not held accountable for.

    and it’s pretty funny too.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Always one step ahead, Rush was quite properly mocking the double standard that a liberal editorial columnist was not held accountable for.

    Perhaps, Dan. But I think the Limbauvians misunderstood (willfully or not) Ehrenstein’s point. Ehrenstein – who is part African-American himself – was referring not directly to Obama but to a particular perception of him in certain segments of white society and culture.

  • Clavos

    Ehrenstein – who is part African-American himself – was referring not directly to Obama but to a particular perception of him in certain segments of white society and culture.

    That would be the “progressive” (love that sobriquet!) segment, right?

  • Dan

    I think you’re selling the Limbauvians a little short there Dr. D.

    The song makes specific reference to Ehrenstein’s point in the lyrics.

    “The guy from the L.A. paper
    Said he makes guilty whites feel good
    They’ll vote for him, and not for me
    beause he’s not from the hood.”

    It is sung impersonating Al Sharpton through a megaphone. At the time Sharpton was complaining about Obama not being an authentic black. So it has more than one level of relevance.

    It seems obvious that it is the anti-Limbauvians who miss completely the grander scheme and eloquence of the point Rush was making. Hearing only the phrase “magic negro” out of context, they lapse into their typical orgy of ignorant incrimination.

    Thus, completing the circle with more sound bites and journalistic hit pieces for Rush to regale his clued in audience with.

  • Nicole Weaver

    Wow! I am hugely impressed with your willingness to write this article. You are brave! I think it is definitely healthy to take a check-up from the neck up .

    Nicole Weaver