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Federal Court Strikes Down Key Provisions of Arizona Immigration Law

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On Wednesday a Federal District Court judge granted an injunction against four of the strongest provisions of Arizona’s controversial immigration law. The ruling upheld the jurisdiction of the federal government in enforcing citizenship issues, but acknowledged some state control over specific policies effecting illegal immigrants within their borders.

The blocked elements of the law include the requirement that law officers verify citizenship during traffic stops or arrests, a section making it a crime not to carry immigration papers, a provision making illegal for undocumented workers to seek employment and the authorization of warrantless arrests of illegals. Although several of these provisions seem clearly contrary to the Bill of Rights, the ruling avoids extending Constitutional rights to non-citizens and rules based primarily on practical rather than Constitutional or even legal arguments, reasoning that they create too much paperwork or would be difficult to enforce equitably.

Remaining restrictions include a prohibition on sanctuary cities and a modification of the law to allow civil suits against jurisdictions which create an illegal-friendly environment, plus making it illegal to stop a vehicle to pick up day laborers and additional penalties for human smuggling. Most of these provisions were allowed because they are extensions of existing state laws and not specifically related to the citizenship status or identity of immigrants.

Critics have pointed out that the judge who made the ruling is a Clinton appointee and claimed that the federal court system is biased towards the interests of the federal government. Some critics have gone farther, even claiming that the federal suit and the ruling are effectively acts of war against the state of Arizona.

The case will be appealed in the left-leaning 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals, and Arizona may file a countersuit against the Department of Justice for not enforcing federal immigration laws.

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About Dave Nalle

  • jeannie danna

    And…when the feds finish with the State of Arizona, the rest of this piece of crap legislation will be gone!

  • Arch Conservative

    The phrase piece of crap should only be used to refer to anyone that opposes this legislation and not the legislation itself.

    What don’t you understand about the term illegal Jeannie?

    Perhaps Madame Karma will show herself and the next legal American citizen that gets killed by some illegal gang banger, rapist, or drunk driver will be someone you care about Jeannie. Maybe then you’ll open your fucking eyes to what’s going on.

    The vast majority of the American public, which is not made up of race baiting, left wing moonbats, supports this law and other laws like it in other states.

    It’s quite disgusting not only that people like Jeniie side with illegals over the laws and legal citizens of this nation but that our president and fedral government do likewise.

    There is talk of vigilantism on the border. Given that our government has no respect for the rule of law, why should citizens who live on the border and must deal with the invading illegals?

    The time to avenge Robert Krentz is long overdue!

  • jeannie danna

    Show us your papers Arch.

    It is important for the future of this country to separate fact from myth in today’s heated discussion.

    Not once has the commenter in #2 ever tried to see the lefts’ position on anything.

    The party of no continues

    I bet if we wanted this legislation to pass, then moonbat #2 would oppose it!!!

  • Jordan Richardson

    The vast majority of the American public…supports this law and other laws like it in other states.

    Do you have any evidence for this claim, Archie?

  • Doug Hunter

    Jordan, the poll information is easy to find. It’s 60-70% on specific questions like should suspected illegals have to show papers and 55-60% supporting the Arizona law itself… certainly not the vast majority.

    This is not near enough majority to really enforce immigration. One of the interesting things about democracy is how a very motivated minority can actually have more pull than a majority that is lukewarm. In other words, the majority wants to enforce the laws but it’s simply one of many issues and probably doesn’t rank high enough to change their voting patterns much. On the other side you have a core of people who are family of or can otherwise relate to the millions of illegals and this IS the most important issue and they definitely will punish anyone who tries to enforce the law by voting against them.

    In theory, I’ve been a supporter of legal immigration and letting people into the country in an orderly fashion. I no longer think that is possible due to the restrictions placed on enforcement by the vocal minority (currently at least) of supporters so I’m moving towards an open border free for all.

    Bring em on. Why just Mexicans, we should send boats to Africa and Asia to pick up the young able bodied and/or educated willing to work and bring em to the land of opportunity, no legal documents necessary. You step foot on US soil you are a US citizen. I truly believe it would be a stimulus to our economy and shift our demographics where we have more young workers to balance out those retiring.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Doug, that’s pretty vague. Can you point to one source that confirms that 55-60% of Americans support the Arizona law? I couldn’t locate anything that suggested such a thing, but maybe I’m not looking in the right places.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Nevermind. Here’s a few samples of what I was able to locate:

    A CBS News poll from July says that 57% of Americans think that the Arizona immigration law is “about right.” The same poll reports that 23% think the law “goes too far.” The poll was a random sampling of roughly 996 Americans.

    Then there’s a Pew Research Poll from a month earlier that found that 73% of Americans approved of a law that would “require people to produce documents verifying their legal status.” The same poll found that 59% of Americans approved of Arizona’s new law.

    A Rasmussen poll from July reveals that 61% of Americans would like to see the passage of a law similar to Arizona’s in their own states. This was taken from a survey of 1000 “likely voters.”

    But then another July Pew Research and National Journal poll, reported by CNN, claimed that 36% approved the new Arizona law.

    Then a Gallup poll points out that 51% of Americans favour of the new Arizona law, while 39% oppose it. 31% of Americans participating in the same poll, however, had never even heard of the law.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Polls can vary by how questions are phrased. The idea of providing a path to green-card status for ‘illegals’ who have legitimate jobs that fill a need [derided as ‘amnesty’ by nativist extremists] is supported by a large majority.

    Virtually no one supports allowing criminals into the country. But classifying hard-working individuals as criminals serves no legitimate purpose. It’s just demagoguery designed to appeal to a passionate but misguided minority.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    What people on both sides of the political spectrum like about Arizona’s action is that it attempts to do something about the lawlessness on the border through enforcing laws which the feds choose not to enforce. IF the federal government were doing its job then this law never would have been proposed or passed.

    Dave

  • Smiley

    Boarders?

    we don’t need no stinkin boarders

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The ‘lawlessness’ on the border is an excuse, not a reason. The reason is political opportunism designed to whip up and capitalize on nativist hysteria.

    Law enforcement officials in quite a few border counties oppose the law, see it as political gimmickry with a very imprecise aim, and point out that crime is down in most border counties/cities.

    “States stepping in out of necessity because the feds aren’t doing their job” is a phony argument composed entirely of political rhetoric.

    If this weren’t an election year, and if there weren’t a convenient ‘states’ rights’ peg to hang the argument on, I would expect Nalle to be on the other side of this discussion, as he has certainly been in the past.

  • jeannie danna

    Yes, when has Dave wanted the feds to exercise power…isn’t that a loss of freedom?

    :) Hi Dave, long time no see.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Boarders? we don’t need no stinkin boarders

    I should say not. Awful people. They overstay their welcome, take showers at ungodly hours, eat everything in the fridge without replacing it and won’t pay their rent.

    They can’t spell, either.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    The court’s decision is a bit puzzling, I have to say. For example, it already is a legal requirement for legal immigrants (I should know, I am one) to carry INS documentation, and it already is illegal to work without legal immigration status (and sometimes even if you are here legally).

    That said, while I’d understand if a cop asked to see my green card after he’d pulled me over for speeding, I’d be very disturbed if he pulled me over for the sole purpose of examining said green card.

    In a sense, all Arizona is trying to do is to enforce the existing laws, and some of SB1070’s provisions which were vulnerable to blatant abuse have been amended or removed. However, there clearly is a rather spiteful political agenda attached to the law.

  • Les Slater

    The reason the right is making such noise is they see an oportunity to exploit the crisis of their favorite economic system. None of this crisis is the making of any workers, least of all immigrants, with or without papers.

    I’m going to a demo here in Chicago at 4 to protest SB1070 and all other attcks on workers. The attacks on immigrant workers are aimed at all workers.

  • Brian aka Guppusmaximus

    @14,

    I guess it depends on what state you live in. Here in MA., it’s not a right but a privilege to drive,so, if a cop wants to pull you over just to see if you have a driver’s license then,I believe,it is lawful for him to do so. Though, I could be wrong?

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Doc, I too find Judge Bolton’s opinion a tad puzzling.

    You note, while I’d understand if a cop asked to see my green card after he’d pulled me over for speeding, I’d be very disturbed if he pulled me over for the sole purpose of examining said green card.

    As well you should be. However, that is not what the Arizona statutes call for.

    Here is my attempt at a legal analysis of Judge Bolton’s opinion granting a preliminary injunction. Here is an earlier article explaining why I think the DOJ suit was wrong.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    While I’m at it, here is another article, this one explaining the rather simple proposition that it’s a good idea to read legislation before commenting on it. It might even be thought appropriate for some pedantic reprobates for the honorable members of the Congress to read proposed federal legislation before voting on it.

    Oh well. Won’t happen.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    And a good idea also, just possibly, to consider the full implications and potential unintended consequences of legislation before you vote it into law. Don’t pretend this bad law is a good idea just because it addresses forcefully a politically divisive issue during an election year. A good reason, rather, to be skeptical of it.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Not once has the commenter in #2 ever tried to see the lefts’ position on anything.”

    I know what the left’s position is………..

    “We may be batshit crazy but if you don’t agree with us and do as we say we’ll call you a racist.”

    Why is it that when discussing abortion you moonbats say “abortion is legal under the law and that’s it,” but when talking about people breaking the law to enter you come up with all kinds of bullshit excuses as to why you don’t mind the law being broken? Could it be because you’re a bunch of sanctimonious hypocritical douchebags?

    Another thing……….It’s nice to see that none of you whackadoo, left wing Obama nutsuckers give a damn about Rob Krentz but you’d bend over backwards to defend the illegals who come here, don’t pay taxes, receive health care that they never pay for and basically shit all over our laws and culture every chance that they get.

    Mexico does not allow Hondurans, guatemalns and el salvadorans to illegally enter through their southenr border but we’re supposed to allow Mexicans to?

    Whether you leftist kooks believe it or not most Americans are fed up with the illegals and fed up with being called racist.

    Jeannie’s little “party of no” comment pretty much encapsulates the far left’s thought process………..meaningless catchphrases and cries of racism. That’s all there is. Fuck the left! Fuck the illegals!

    Three cheers in advance to the first Arizona rancher that finally gets fed up enough to unload some buckshot into the next hostile illegal trespassing on his property.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    15 – Good deal, Les. I hope you’ll let us know how it turns out.

  • Baronius

    Arch is right. What does “the party of no” have to do with this issue?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Arch is right.

    Um, no, never, certainly not on this issue.

  • zingzing

    archie: “Could it be because you’re a bunch of sanctimonious hypocritical douchebags?”

    alright, so why is it your sanctimonious hypocritical douchebags tried to block unemployment insurance because it will add to the debt, then want to continue bush-era tax cuts, which will add much much more to the national debt?

    hypocrisy knows no party. or it knows all of them. whatever. but we won’t have you turning this place into a police state. fair enough?

  • Les Slater

    re -21

    There were by my estimaation 300 to 400 fairly early. It may have been larger later but not much. We’ll see what the police and press say.

  • Les Slater

    Dave, Doc and Dan

    This issue is more economic and political than legal. The legalities are just buttresses to reinforce the economic and political.

    Les

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Les, I would appreciate it if you would elaborate a bit.

    The economic and political concerns should have nothing to do with a ruling by a federal district court judge. Nor should they have anything to do with a public expression by the attorney general, in his official capacity, concerning a state law; particularly before bothering to read it. Obviously, they have a lot to do with the passage of legislation and, unfortunately, the initiation of litigation.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Les Slater

    Dan,

    First of all, laws are enacted for a reason. In this case the reasons are fundamentally economic; read Archie’s posts. All the legalities, all the niceties, all the politics when peeled back will find an economic core.

    Les

  • Baronius

    Dan(M), never ask a Marxist to explain why “it’s all political”.

    Handy, I know it’s odd to say that Arch is right, but that “party of no” thing is just ridiculous. The Republicans, right or wrong, are acting on an issue, and the Democratic administration, right or wrong, is saying no.

  • jeannie danna

    Arch,

    What if the best answer to Arizona’s problem is helping these people immigrate, “LEGALLY”?

    Could you extend that big heart of yours to them?

    :0 I don’t care if you call me names…we’ll get to the heart of the matter someday.

  • Les Slater

    Baronius,

    I said it was primarily economic. See Arch’s #20:

    “…but you’d bend over backwards to defend the illegals who come here, don’t pay taxes, receive health care that they never pay for…”

    Not that Arch’s perception is accurate but that’s a big part the shit that’s being spread.

    Les

  • jeannie danna

    My last two points tonight, Arch,

    This profiling legislation is already spreading like wildfire and targeting other groups…the point is someday it may be you or me.

    The crops will rot in fields and I believe most of us like to eat.

    :)nite Archie

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Since Les, being a Marxist, is obviously off his rocker, let’s hear your explanation, Baronius.

  • Cannonshop

    Interestingly, it’s the same judge that found the Stolen Valor act objectionable. I wonder if he’s trying to get a Supreme Court slot from The One…

  • Arch Conservative

    What if the best answer to Arizona’s problem is helping these people immigrate, “LEGALLY”?

    I have no problem with legal immigration. That would entail that once emigrating legally they not only obey our, laws, learn to speak english,and pay their taxes but also respect our native culture and citizens. I don’t care where you come from….if you can do all of those things I’ll welcome you here. If you can’t…………you can fuck off and die in the desert trying to get here for all I care.

    Oh and of course my perception is accurate Les…….just ask anyone at a hospital near the border that has had to shut down because they couldn’t keep up with the unreimbursed care.

  • Les Slater

    “…just ask anyone at a hospital near the border that has had to shut down because they couldn’t keep up with the unreimbursed care.”

    Hospitals are shutting all over the place, especially in areas that serve the working class. It is part of the ruling class attack on workers. Blaming this on any worker, citizen or immigrant, with or without papers points the finger in the wrong direction.

    As far as not paying taxes, most of the immigrants without papers that are being attacked by the government are workers and their families. They pay taxes. They usually use false Social Security ID and taxes are withheld. They are unable to claim any of the benefits. They are subsidizing the Social Security system as well as the government in general.

    They produce wealth for the capitalists that employ them and receive lower wages than citizens or immigrants with papers.

  • Brian aka Guppusmaximus

    First & foremost, I wholeheartedly agree with Arch. BUT, you’re damn right,Les, that this is about America’s economy as well. If you don’t think stopping an overflow of undocumented people (Irish,Mexican,Canadian,whatever)from raping this country of its resources without officially & legally supporting it, then you’re not in touch with reality.
    BUT, that’s not to leave out the most important fact that this bill would cut the crime factor in Arizona by almost half if not more & put some order back into Arizona’s unstable economy!

    Just because we are a nation that gives any color or creed an opportunity to live life to the fullest doesn’t mean we should tear down the walls and let everyone in!

  • Les Slater

    Brian,

    I must caution you on using the word ‘we’. I doubt very much that you are part of the small minority that owns and runs this country. It is not ‘our’ country.

    Those that do, have found themselves entangled in a serious and deepening economic crisis of their system. This has been going on for decades and is now at an acute stage. It will get much worse.

    To attempt to fight this the capitalists are attacking the living standards of workers in general to try to prop up their profits. They are also penetrating more and more into the semi-developed and under-developed world. In the case of Mexico, through NAFTA and other trade weapons, the capitalists have destroyed much of its economy, especially its agriculture. The crisis is exported. We see the results.

    Les

  • Jordan Richardson

    I think you Americans are doing a fine job of raping your country (and countless others) of resources on your own, Brian. The dent the “undocumented” might put in that accord is, well, slight.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Arch, what do you mean by “respect our native culture?”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    33 – Roger,

    (That was pretty funny.)

    (going through the outrage phase? If so, I comprendo that…)

    Re 25, Thanks Les, I will keep my eye on the news.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    If you don’t think stopping an overflow of undocumented people (Irish,Mexican,Canadian,whatever)from raping this country of its resources without officially & legally supporting it, then you’re not in touch with reality.

    If I had the power, I would be very pleased by your attacking undocumented immigrants (who, as Les pointed out, are actually subsidizing the system not raping it), whilst your president has just bailed me out with your money.

    As Les said, you are pointing the finger in the wrong direction. And in your doing so (without questioning and examining why you point it that way) you are actually serving the class of people who are the real problem.

  • Baronius

    Roger, I’d agree with Dan that a matter of law should be settled on its legal merits.

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Sometimes, however, a bit of sick humor helps.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Brian aka Guppusmaximus

    I don’t disagree that we have financial problems in this country,but, I highly doubt turning a blind eye to criminal activity is going to solve those problems.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Arch,

    Thank you for this response.

    My grandmother was nineteen when she moved here from Naples and she was never able to pick up the second language. Also, look at today’s technology, language barriers can be easily overcome. so, can’t they immigrate without speaking fluent English?

    As far as health care near the border, why not take care of all the people who live here.

    :)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Nice article Dan(Miller). I think Mr. Lowry’s characterization of undocumented immigrants is hilarious. His contrasting Mexican non-documented immigrants with white immigrants is funny as hell.

    For the sake of argument, let’s assume that visitors from countries like Norway and Australia are flooding into the border areas of Arizona. And let’s assume they engage in recklessly illegal conduct, daring cops to stop and arrest them. And let’s assume they exhibit all the behaviors associated withillegal [sic] immigrants.

    HAHAHA! Imagine WHITE immigrants not having documentation on them or “exhibiting all the behavior” of those nasty illegal [sic] immigrants (the brown ones), such as recklessly illegal behavior, challenging cops to stop them, etc.

    That is hilarious Dan(Miller). We all know those immigrants from Mexico are brown for a reason (they probably even wear black hats).

    What a funny story Dan(Miller) I’m ROFLOL!!!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I expected this response, Baronius. You are a “law and order” guy, and I understand.

    How is that, however, an explanation, other than an assertion that the majority of Americans are law-abiding?

    I grant that “law,” in the abstract, is presumed to reflect the greatest understanding, wisdom, and sense of justice that a society is capable of at any given point in time. That’s at least the idea of law, starting with Plato and on. I’m speaking of course of “high laws” and in an honorific sense; and by extension, of all legislative acts.

    But here is the question: Are we to regard this conception as reality or as a myth. Surely, the ruling classes would have us regard it as the former.

    That’s where the disagreement lies.

  • Baronius

    “How is that an explanation?”

    How is what an explanation of what? Let’s settle that before we go further.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    48 – That is an excellent post Roger. Very helpful to me, that characterization of the law in general.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Watch out, Roger, he’s getting ready to run away from you…never to speak again if he doesn’t win the debate.:(

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, I always tried to be civil to you.

    Roger, I’ve been in too many conversations with you to reply to something as open-ended as #48 without knowing clearly what you think my position is.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Civil? Perhaps you could re-read the end of my last thread…passive aggressive , if anything! You and the gun…

    It was very hurtful and not easily forgotten.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Surely, the ruling classes would have us regard it as the former.”

    I’d argue that most everyone believes their internal moralities/laws are in some way valid or real even when they conflict with the groups… the ruling classes are just alot better at getting their versions to stick and enforcing them.

    I think this is what drives people to politics. You likely wouldn’t be here if you didn’t believe you had your own little slice of real truth to share that isn’t embodied in our current system. From my perspective the problem is you just want to replace one dominant flawed myth with another and the feeling is likely mutual.

    I’ve long noted that the vast majority don’t share as much disdain of domination and power as they do envy… (even that delicate flower cindy threatened to pummel me for having the audacity to defend some principles of the free market). Anyway, I don’t think that dynamic is going anywhere regardless of our future political systems. Society seems to organize naturally into a pyramid fashion with those at the top often shitting on those below them. In the end, some will always be more equal than others… the best you can hope for is for a benevolent, likeminded oligarchy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    An explanation, Baronius, on analogy with the kind that Les offered, namely that all the hoopla about the Arizona law has the appearance of the political and legal dispute – about what is right. But in actuality, it’s a ploy by the Right to take the eye of the ball: to make it appear that our economy would suffer from the influx of legal or illegal immigration and away from the real culprit – the corporate America. In short, that appeal to the law of the land is just a pretext.

    At least that my understanding of Les’s comment.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    My remarks aren’t motivated by envy, Doug, not in the least.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    alright, so why is it your sanctimonious hypocritical douchebags tried to block unemployment insurance because it will add to the debt,

    Not just add to the debt. It also increases long-term unemployment.

    then want to continue bush-era tax cuts, which will add much much more to the national debt?

    Tax cuts don’t actually add to the debt. They theoretically reduce revenues, except that it’s been proven again and again that they don’t reduce revenues because lower taxes stimulate revenues and job creation, and that raising taxes will actually reduce revenues and kill jobs and make life harder for consumers.

    But by all means let’s drive the country into depression by ending those tax cuts.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Dan(M),

    Something gives me the impression that Cindy (#47) is not best pleased with you.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    This profiling legislation is already spreading like wildfire and targeting other groups…the point is someday it may be you or me.

    What profiling legislation is spreading? Profiling is expressly prohibited in the Arizona law.

    Dave

  • Doug Hunter

    #56

    What’s not to be envious of? Do you wish you had a little more control of the direction our world/country/city/state is headed? They do. Do you wish you could fix the Arizona law and make it more equitable? They can. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing, but if you would maintain that you’re not then I applaud you and would welcome you to your new more enlightened libertarian stance.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    We are more than consumers.

    Dave, please look around you. Don’t you see the infra-structure of this country crumbling?

    Now, add 27,000 deserted oil wells in the gulf to the millions of bridges and tunnels all across this country that are disintegrating due to lack of maintenance funds.

    Taxes are the life-blood of this country.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Profiling is expressly prohibited in the Arizona law.

    ya…they wont judge anyone by the color of their skin.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    It’s hard to read all of this italic.

  • zingzing

    dave: “it’s been proven again and again that they don’t reduce revenues because lower taxes stimulate revenues and job creation…”

    and what a bang up job they’ve been doing!

  • Les Slater

    re 63,

    Does this fix it?

  • Les Slater

    It’s fixed.

  • Arch Conservative

    The correct term is illegal aliens not undocumented immigrants.

  • Arch Conservative

    “This profiling legislation is already spreading like wildfire and targeting other groups…the point is someday it may be you or me.”

    Somebody sound the BULLSHIT alarm!

  • Arch Conservative

    Lack of maintenance funds? Taxes are the lifeblood of this country?

    Are you f-ing kidding me?

    Only a true blue whackadoo moonbat thinks our problem is that the federal government doesn’t take enough money from the citizenry.

    The real problem Jeannie………..is thatthe government has more than enough money to take care of our infrastructure and a host of other things that would be useful but they waste on political payback to special interest and naming libraries and other such nonsense after themselves.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You forgot to mention the war machine…hmm

    And yes,

    Taxes are the life-blood of this countries infra-structure…hope your never on a crumbling bridge!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    There are an estimated 27,000 deserted oil wells in the gulf just off the coast of La.

    no-one is routinely checking them and they are all rotting away.

    What happened did you skim over it?

  • Les Slater

    “Taxes are the lifeblood of this country?”

    It’s a shell game, designed to make you think the government is broke. The government and other institutions of the capitalist class have whatever funds they need to do whatever that class thinks is necessary for its maintenance.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Dave repeats, without evidence, the myth that tax cuts increase tax revenue. Well, should we then reduce tax rates to zero, and thus increase revenue to an infinitely large amount.

    Here’s a relevant quote from FactCheck.org in 2007 when John McCain was repeating the ‘tax cuts increase revenues’ canard.

    “Federal revenue is lower today than it would have been without the tax cuts,” Alan D. Viard of the conservative American Enterprise Institute told the Washington Post last October.

    Viard, who worked in the Treasury Department’s Office of Tax Analysis and the White House’s Council of Economic Advisers under President Bush, told FactCheck.org that “nobody can absolutely prove that.” Proof would require time travel and a reversal of tax policy. “But among economists, there’s no dispute.”

    Tax cuts can be a sound economic move that spurs growth, says Viard. “But it doesn’t mean that [the cuts] gained revenue.”

    Read the whole piece. It’s excellent, as FactCheck usually is. Of course, our friends on the right say it’s biased — because it doesn’t follow their holy tax-cut mantra. Whatever.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well they have been taking a lot of shells from my family.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Also, the ‘evidence’ that long-term unemployment compensation discourages people from working is another myth. This could conceivably apply when the economy is strong. But when there are at least 5 unemployed people for every job opening, it certainly does not apply.

    It’s just another way for conservatives to say to the unemployed and the poor: Fuck you, we could care less. It is heartless, it is condescending, it is unbelievably offensive.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The conservative soul is cold.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Doug@60

    Sure I wish the country moved in the right direction, and in so doing, I’m being motivated by my sense of what’s right. But to have control? That make a dictator out of me, and I don’t particularly fancy that role. For one thing, I’m afraid it would change me beyond recognition, for which reason I resist. Meanwhile, I’m resorting to persuasion.

    The way I see it, right will prevail, if not sooner than later. So no, I don’t hold any envy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The real problem Jeannie………..is that the government has more than enough money to take care of our infrastructure . . . ”

    You’ve got that right, Archie. The stimulus so-called has been a joke. Name one thing, one major project, that makes a difference and is the direct result of the stimulus.

    The money has been and is being pissed away with nothing to show for it.

  • John Wilson

    Dave Nalle is wrong when he says:”Tax cuts don’t actually add to the debt. They theoretically reduce revenues, except that it’s been proven again and again that they don’t reduce revenues because lower taxes stimulate revenues and job creation, and that raising taxes will actually reduce revenues and kill jobs and make life harder for consumers.”

    This belief is often expressed by poorly educated people, and sometimes referred to the “Laffer curve”.

    The germ of this belief was created in 1923 when John Maynard Keynes speculated about the possibility of a “Tax Flexibility Curve” which would apply under certain narrow and extreme financial conditions (which no one has shown to actually exist), and would exhibit such a seemingly paradoxical nature. Students of macro economics are fond of creating such paradoxical scenarios to puzzle their fellows and amuse themselves.

    Arthur Laffer, who was born in 1940, had read Keynes conjecture and mentioned it at lunch one day in 1980 to some worthies, like Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc., in the Reagan administration, who immediately blew this narrow conjecture up into gospel.

    When partisans try to prove this thing they don’t compare actual conditions against Keynes hypothetical conditions to see if the scenario matches (that would take assembling quite a bit of data and making many math calculations, as well as understanding the partial differential equations involved), instead they just look at a time when tax rates were decreased to see if revenue decreased. Voila! Tax revenue didn’t decrease, so they declare victory!

    But they are wrong because they don’t take account of ‘externalities’ that increased tax revenue, such as population increase, inflation, borrowing to finance fiscal policy increases (such as, say, a new expensive war), and that old favorite: shifting taxes to someone else, such as the poor.

    As for giving more money to rich investors who would create businesses and hire people, that simply won’t happen when there are no new markets to sell into and you already are over-capitalized, as we are now.

  • John Wilson

    As for TARP and the stimulus, Alan Blinder (who’s pretty conservative) says:

    Sullivan


    Saved From A Second Depression?

    28 Jul 2010 04:01 pm

    A paper by Alan S. Blinder and Mark Zandi is pinging around the economics blogs. From the NYT:

    In a new paper, the economists argue that without the Wall Street bailout, the bank stress tests, the emergency lending and asset purchases by the Federal Reserve, and the Obama administration’s fiscal stimulus program, the nation’s gross domestic product would be about 6.5 percent lower this year. In addition, there would be about 8.5 million fewer jobs, on top of the more than 8 million already lost; and the economy would be experiencing deflation, instead of low inflation…

    The full paper is here Blinder. Avent gives a tentative response. Stephen Spruiell thinks it is “still pretty early in the game to be evaluating what effects the bailouts, the Fed interventions, and the stimulus actually had’. Delong’s reading:

    The hard part of it, of course, is figuring out what would have happened to the flow-of-funds through financial markets in the absence of TARP, of quantitative easing, and of other extraordinary financial policy interventions. That they were, collectively, about twice as big as the ARRA smells right to me, but the only pieces of information I have to support that are even shakier than back-of-the-envelope calculations.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    from Business Week on Wednesday:

    The U.S. response to the financial crisis probably prevented a depression, slowed a decline in gross domestic product and saved about 8.5 million jobs, economists Alan Blinder and Mark Zandi said.

    Policies including the government fiscal stimulus, bailouts of financial companies, bank stress tests and the Federal Reserve’s purchase of mortgage-backed securities to lower interest rates “probably averted what could have been called Great Depression 2.0,” Blinder and Zandi said…

    Blinder is a former Fed vice chairman and a Princeton University economics professor. He was on former President Bill Clinton’s Council of Economic Advisers.

    Zandi is chief economist at New York- based Moody’s Analytics Inc. [He advised the McCain campaign in 2008, but McCain later disavowed him because he wasn’t conservative enough.]

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Ha, I guess John W and I had the same thought at the same time.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    A crowd of about 100 demonstrators rallied inside City Hall Thursday

    Chicago Tribune, Les.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    the government has more than enough money to take care of our infrastructure

    Yes, Archie is right, but as long as he is more concerned about how much tax he’s paying rather than how much is going to unjust wars, no-bid contracts, and private interests, then nothing will get done…

  • Les Slater

    Cindy, I saw that. Thanks.

  • Les Slater

    Unjust wars are not causing the economic problems. It is the current economic crisis that is driving the wars at present.

  • Arch Conservative

    I think taxes should be much lower for everyone, not just myself Jeannie.

    It’s obscene that any individual or business should have to pay what we pay to the federal government. A federal government which does not nearly provide for us our money’s worth in services.

    Yes I think the two wars we’re currently fighting are a colossal waste of money Jeannie. 80% of what out government spends our money on is wasteful. The only difference is I’m not calling for more of it.

    It’s not big business vs. big government. They’re both acting in conjunction to run this once great country into the ground just as fast as they can.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Les,

    The wars are for the oil and resources of others. The wars are the exploitation of any who dare cross Dick Cheney, the oil and gas industry and the industrial war complex…so they are what is draining this country dry along with the top 1% who own over 90% of our nation’s wealth.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Les, the two wars were both started in relatively prosperous times [well one during the 2001-2 recession, and one during the 2003 recovery].

    Combat troops are out of Iraq in a month. And many of us suspect Obama would like to leave Afghanistan too, as fast as he can — that he is staying an extra year only because he [rightly] fears the political fallout if/when Afghanistan again becomes a failed state and a haven for terrorists.

    He’d much rather spend those billions on domestic programs or reduce the scary deficit. [Yes, I can predict the response from the right and the left to my saying that.]

    But you seem to be wrong on the facts. What are you talking about?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Current economic crisis drives the wars at present, he said, handyguy. Fear drove the wars (i.e., enlistment) in the early 00’s. Currently, the economic crisis creates a dearth of alternatives to enlistment.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    He’d much rather spend those billions on domestic programs or reduce the scary deficit

    yay!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Arch,

    Your #87 is absolutely right, and i agree totally with you…is this a trick?

    :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well Arch, this left-wing-moonbat is going to say fairwell until another day…:) nite

  • Baronius

    Handy, you’re complaining about economic myths, but not to the Marxist? I mean, there’s no way of proving an economic theory’s validity but you gotta admit that no one’s been more fully rebuked by history than Marxism. Other thoughts:

    – If conservatives didn’t care about the poor, they’d be sticking to their anti-poor positions. If they do care about the poor, they’d be sticking to their pro-poor positions. Who are you to say which is the case? More to the point, who are you to criticize Arch’s generalized slurs when you partake in the same thing?

    – We’ve gone over the legacy of the Reagan tax cuts on this site before. You can write it off as coincidence if you want to, but tax revenues did increase.

  • Baronius

    Handy – I posted that last comment without updating the page. Good on ya for calling out Les.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    A person could make a guess that there’s nothing any President elected in the last twenty years would rather be spending money on than war. A person could also make a guess that the federal government is getting involved in the AZ immigration affair because it needs even MORE people desperate for employment to be able to consider the enlistment option. Just sayin’.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie, #84.

    Archie IS concerned about the things you mentioned.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “but you gotta admit that no one’s been more fully rebuked by history than Marxism.”

    Total misunderstanding. Marx’s analysis of capitalism is spot on. There is none better. It’s not Marxist thought that has been rebuked but Soviet brand of socialism.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Tax revenues did increase by some measures during the Reagan presidency. But did they fall when Bush I and Clinton raised the rates [a bit]? Did they rise again when Bush II cut them? The ballooning deficits of 2002-2008 suggest otherwise. Will they fall if Obama takes the rates back to those of the Clinton years [a very prosperous era; why didn’t taxation spoil that?]

    Simplistic nonsense about taxes was given the correct name by a Republican: George H. W. Bush, 1980: “Voodoo economics.”

    If you don’t hate the poor, good for you. But I have listened to that unemployment cliche repeated entirely too many times in the last year. And it has been accompanied by rhetoric that implies that the poor and unemployed are lazy and could work if they just would.

    And it does make me boiling mad. And it is condescending and just plain goddamn wrong.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena
  • Jordan Richardson

    LOL @ China being a communist country.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And the comment you’re referencing is . . .

  • Jordan Richardson

    The Infoplease.com list of “Current Communist Countries” from #101.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Better let Gao Zhisheng know that it WASN’T the Communist party he was resigning from. Oh, but wait a minute. You can’t do that, can you Jordan. He’s been “disappeared” for about a year now.

    Communism is a package, Jordan. It’s not just an economic package. Even when a Communist country adopts capitalism, as China has, some of Marx’s OTHER goals can still be pursued QUITE enthusiastically indeed.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The Chinese government is corrupt more than it is any singular system, Irene. I’d question how enthusiastically the Chinese government is pursuing Marx’s “goals,” especially considering the fact that they seem to operate out of convenience more than anything else.

    I would suggest that the Chinese government is “Communist” in name only. The country has come a long way from the rule of Mao Zedong and all but abandoned any classical Marxism at the end of the 1970s. Just about everything in the country is partly privatized, like schools for example, and health care and social security have been cut way back to align more with a traditional American system.

    The Communist Party leadership is entirely geared towards achieving capitalist ends, grabbing more and more cash from foreign investments for their state-owned banks and pumping more cash towards their associates than towards anyone else.

    It’s classical corruption more than classical Marxism, as I said.

    I do wonder what “other Marxist goals” you’re referring to, though. It’s hard to see China working towards anything but economic supremacy.

  • Doug Hunter

    Roger, Marx’s analysis was of the early industrial phase of capitalism seemed spot on. Capitalism grows and morphs beyond that and out of the danger of a Marxist revolution fairly quickly. When the capitalists first come with their factories and the population is still ignorant and poor you can stoke the class hatred, point the fingers at the wealthy, and have your revolution. Once you reach the point we’re at you can stoke the class hatred, get a quick ‘yeah man, fight the power!’ then it’s back to eating McDonalds and watching reality TV on the bigscreen. There’s no revolution worth dying for if it means missing out on American Idol!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Do you really not know what other Marxist goals I’m talking about, Jordan?

  • Les Slater

    “Communism is a package…”

    I doubt anyone who speaks with such authority ever read Marx’s Capital; certainly doesn’t understand it.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    It was Marx’s explicit intent to eradicate expressions of devotion to any God but the god of the State.

    China doesn’t need to harvest the organs of Falun Gong to achieve economic supremacy. China doesn’t need to torture the members of underground churches to achieve economic supremacy. China does these things in its pursuit of Marx’s other, non-economic goals.

  • Jordan Richardson

    No, Irene, I don’t know. It’s hard for me to think of what Marxist “goals” the Chinese government is working towards.

    Even dear Ted Koppel understands that it is more accurate to label China as The People’s Republic of Capitalism. Simply put, it’s hardly unreasonable to suggest that China is more purely capitalistic than even the United States.

  • Zedd

    Dave I love it how you’ve changed your tone to fall in line with the talking points of the week, on the subject of AZ.

    You are not a libertarian at all. Too much of a joiner. You just like taking about being libertarian… makes you feel like you are part of something big.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jordan,

    Of course you’re right. It’s communism in name only. Yet believe it or not, some argue on behalf of so-called “social/socialized capitalism,” a term in vogue of late. And of course, without so much as saying so, they mean the People’s Republic.

    My view is – it’s statism taken to the extreme, with government in control of virtually every industry that’s worth its salt.

    The reason why China is successful in it’s “capitalist” endeavor, it’s invaluable trading partner with the US (thanks to the corporate America for impoverishing the middle class). Such wasn’t the case during the Cold War era.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    I think we crossed comments, Jordan. If you didn’t know then, you know now. Les, is there any link that you think is missing from the compendium of Marx and Engel’s writings on religion?

  • Jordan Richardson

    #109,

    Not entirely correct, Irene. For China, stability is everything when it comes to cultivating economic opportunities for foreign investors. The Koppel documentary series I cite in #112 features a wealth of interview subjects, mostly foreign investors and foreign real estate magnates, that claim China as being ideal for investment because the government’s crushing of human rights makes for greater predictability in the markets.

    Crushing Falun Gong reflects far more than historical significance for modern Chinese, just as the continual and slow cross-breeding process in Tibet reflects more than just a dislike of Tibetans. The Chinese government fears any organization with the ability to, well, organize. The fear a reprise of Tiananmen.

    That the government of China rules by repression does not make them communist; it makes them desirous of ultimate control. That is not a uniquely communist trait. It is a trait of repressive governments in general. The U.S., too, plays these cards in attacking various other religions and organizations through less “obvious” methods.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Marx and Engels wanted to eliminate any organization with the ability to, well, organize as well. And yes, that is a trait of any totalitarian regime, and what I don’t understand is why you seem to want to overlook that Marx and Engels had similar ends in mind.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Whether or not certain movements or political persuasions share certain “ends” is not really the issue, though. We’re discussing whether or not China, specifically, could be accurately considered “Communist.”

    There are some intersections between the Chinese government’s tactics of control and some Marxist ideology, just as there are intersections in nearly all religious persuasions with other forms of belief. But that doesn’t mean that they are ultimately synonymous. China’s government is fundamentally geared towards the preservation of capitalistic ends. This puts them at direct odds with the fundamentals of Marxism.

    It seems to me that you’re cherrypicking certain specifics and pointing excitedly at where they cross with certain Communist thought. Muslims and Christians believe in Jesus, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And if we’re talking scorecards, the fundamental end of Communism – the elimination of classes – is most assuredly not being met in China. Indeed, the Chinese government doesn’t have that as a goal in the least.

    There is more class disparity in modern China than ever before in its history. This just doesn’t fit with the idea of “Communist China” in any interpretation.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    So, Jordan, you’re not trying to whitewash Marxist antipathy to freedom of religious expression? You’re not trying to deny that this was a goal of Marx’s from the beginning?

    …pointing excitedly? Now, which one of us was the one who was all “LOL@ Information Please”? Pointing excitedly. Pish.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Irene, my concern is with the notion of China being considered as “Communist.” It most certainly is not a Communist country by any meaningful definitions.

    I could care less about Marxism or defending it.

  • Les Slater

    “…is there any link that you think is missing from the compendium of Marx and Engel’s writings on religion?”

    Not particularly. It’s a good link. It does start with his writings on Epicurus which was before he could be considered a Marxist.

    I contend you misunderstand Marx on this issue though.

    “China doesn’t need to torture the members of underground churches to achieve economic supremacy. China does these things in its pursuit of Marx’s other, non-economic goals.”

    This implies Marx’s goal was the destruction of religion, and presumably much other evil, by the crudest of means.

    Marx, above all, was a materialist, a dialectical materialist. He never was one to suggest attacking a symptom to cure a problem. On that question he was clear that only when capitalism was abolished and after some time when class distinctions were only a memory would we begin, in general and broadly, to put aside such fetishes as an alienation of ourselves into a God and its ‘otherworld’.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    OK, getting serious again, since you, Jordan, seem incapable of bringing yourself to admit that elimination of belief and devotion to a Deity is a significant element of Marxist thought, we’ll talk about economics again.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Unless anyone can bring up an example of a country that TRIED Communism and is today, an example of a country where class distinctions do NOT exist, it seems that the statement Baronius made earlier about “Communism being rebuked” stands. That’s why I posted the link, Jordan. I posted a link to the countries that had tried Communism. China is indisputably one of them.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Irene, religious elimination is hardly something Marxists have a monopoly on. For the Chinese, it is a means to an end. The “end” is vastly different from the Marxist idea of elimination of classes. The end, for China, is purely economic. They are interwoven entirely, so to discuss the Communism of China without even touching on the economics is nearly meaningless.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Irene, the link lists China as a “current” Communist country. It is not. It’s not the same as a vegetarian trying a steak.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Same goes for you, too, Les. Can you name any country that has tried Communism without resorting to cruel suppression of religious belief?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    *puts head on desk*
    Let’s go back to the Cultural Revolution, Jordan. Tell me what you see.

  • Les Slater

    125 – Yes, Cuba.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Wrong ocean, Les.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Irene, you’re insisting I travel down your roads here and I think it’s highly unfair that you refuse to travel even one of mine.

    Just answer this: how can you claim a country is “Communist” when they ultimately defy THE guiding principle of Communism with their incessant promotion of capitalism?

    Was China moving towards Communist goals? Yes, absolutely. Are they currently? Absolutely not!

    There is little doubt that the Chinese government practices religious suppression, persecution, censorship, and the like. They are an egregious human rights violator in just about every sense of the word. But they do this to promote stability for foreign investors and economic opportunity, not to eliminate classes. The economic reforms reflect this reality. The fact that you continue to ignore these basic facts in favour of chasing the dragon of persecution, which is an obvious point to anyone, is kind of tiring.

  • Jordan Richardson

    #128, nice one. Ask for “any country” and add qualifiers after Les answers accurately. Oh my.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    I’m sorry, Les, that’s the wrong answer. There WAS religious persecution in Cuba, and that isn’t all. Tom White’s name is pretty far down on this page. Happy reading.

  • Jordan Richardson

    If China is such a Communist country, why do they top the list (along with India) of countries whose firms are most prepared to pay bribes according to Transparency International?

    And why is there a bribing epidemic in China among government officials and foreign investors? How “Communist” is that principle, Irene?

    Wal-Mart, Alcatel-Lucent, IBM, Depp, Siemens, and countless other foreign companies are routinely caught up in bribing scandals in China. How’s that for Communism?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Communists don’t bribe?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Anyway, I thought you said you were getting tired of talking to me, Jordan. I’m talking to Les Slater now, about religious persecution in Cuba.

  • Jordan Richardson

    To enhance the presence of foreign investors and to eliminate red tape to make it easier to participate in the markets? No, I wouldn’t imagine a Communist system participating in such things.

    I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree, Irene. You see China’s pursuit of capitalistic goals as being part and parcel with their Communism. I see it as being reflective of the fact that China is pursuing, at incredible cost to human rights, their economic future through state-sponsored capitalism.

    You say tomato…

  • Les Slater

    re -131,

    “Tom White and Mel Bailey are captured in Cuba after dropping Gospel tracts from their plane.”

    Give me a fuckin break. He flew over Cuba dropping propaganda over its territory. Can you imagine what would happen if a Cuban registered plane was dropping propaganda over any part of the United States?

    Tom White’s own testimony indicates the church in Cuba was doing quite well:

    “But in Castro’s prison, he met many members of the church and learned that even under Castro, Christ’s body was prospering. God answered his prayer.”

    God answered his prayer! What a fuckin idiot.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Irene (#134), fair enough. I didn’t mean to intrude. Many apologies.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Communism does not equate to all that is goodness and light, Les, and neither does capitalism. Every economic system is prone to bribes and corruption because economic systems have to do with money, which anybody who’s been through an estate dispute knows does funny things to people.

    When I think of “capitalism” I think of many bad things. Brutal religious persecution isn’t one of them, though, and it’s one of the first things that comes to mind when I think of Communism.

    Les, you have your work cut out for you, I’m afraid, if you want to pretty-up Marxism’s human rights image.

  • Les Slater

    “Every economic system is prone to bribes and corruption because economic systems have to do with money…”

    Changing the subject?

    “When I think of ‘capitalism’ I think of many bad things. Brutal religious persecution isn’t one of them…”

    How convenient. How about India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Germany during WW-II…?

    On your link, I doubt that the Cuban government is taking sides with respect to denominational sects. Just because someone claims to represent a religion doesn’t elevate them above the law.

  • Doug Hunter

    Irene, after all the failed communist states, most of the greatest genocides of the 20th century, and never any evidence of anything resembling the post state/class stage of communism as foreseen by Marx emerging most sane people have put his ideas to the dustbin. Anyone still cheerleading this failure is likely not to be swayed by mere blog comments. Even more bizarre in my mind are those (like our own Roger N.) favoring the massive totalitarian state that Marx saw as a necessary evil or a means to an end, as an end unto itself.

    Marx gets too much credit as is, Adam Smith was much more prescient.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Sure, there’s religious persecution in all of those places you named, but it has/had nothing to do with capitalism. It has to do with Hinduism (India), Islam(Pakistan), Sharia law unfortunately defended by the U.S. military(Afghanistan), Naziism (Germany WWII). The establishment of Communism in the USSR and in China and in Vietnam…and yes Cuba… etc. WAS very closely associated with religious persecution.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    You’re probably right Doug Hunter. I’m goin’ to go write some more Culture articles or something.

  • Les Slater

    “…and yes Cuba… etc. WAS very closely associated with religious persecution.”

    I hope you can do better than the links provided. In one link for sure you try to pawn off serious criminal behavior for religious persecution. The likes of Tom White think they only answer to a higher law but they do the dirty bidding of the grubby capitalist.

    You Irene, should be ashamed of yourself for attempting to pass this fraud on as good coin, even to us mere bloggers.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    You hope I can do better than the links provided? No you don’t.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Wait a sec, Arizona is trying to keep out communists?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    No, Arizona is trying to keep out men that the federal government wants to transform into PFC Rodriguez, PFC Gonzales and PFC Moreno.

    That’s what I was TRYING to say 100 comments ago, but you know how Les is. He’s almost as much of a religious fanatic as I am, only about Communism.

  • Les Slater

    ‘No you don’t’

    I found the document very interesting. I actually enjoyed reading it.

    You had to go to the U.S. government, not only the government that is extremely hostile to the Cuban Revolution but the same government that has funded the murder of religious figures all over Latin America. The government that gave rise to the Taliban, the government that bankrolls Afghanistan, Egypt and a bunch of others, that’s in bed with the Saudi regime and who knows who else..

    This is also the same country that maintains the Guantanamo prison camp in Cuba, where torture is well documented, extraordinarily renders persons to secret prisons of torture, makes others disappear, never to be seen again. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black? Speaking of the pot, it was the U.S. that insisted that the Pol Pot regime was the sole legitimate representative to Cambodia’s seat in the U.N. long after he was deposed. Think about that, it was the U.S. that insisted that the Khmer Rouge was the legitimate government in Cambodia for years. The U.S government has no fuckin right to criticize, never mind condemn, ANYONE.

    Aren’t you at least a little suspicious that this is a quite distorted document? Look at who you’re getting into bed with.

    I’ll tell you some stories about some of these people this document refers to after I get some rest. It’s a nice document, Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena Irene Athena

    Les, this may come as a surprise to you, but there are people who can actually be, SIMULTANEOUSLY, as disinclined to swallow Communist propaganda as they are to swallow the U.S. government’s brand. You’re preaching to the choir for about three quarters of that post.

    You’d like a document that addresses both the United States’ AND Cuba’s human rights violations. I’d be happy to comply.

  • Les Slater

    Both the U.S. and the Human Rights Watch documents refer to a certain 75 ‘political prisoners’. I will admit that these people are political and until very recently, were prisoners. They were prosecuted and convicted of accepting money from U.S. government sources and receiving instructions from U.S. government officials and agents to undermine Cuban civil society.

    It’s interesting; you could see references to it in the U.S. government document that these people were infiltrated by government agents. It’s not difficult to spot who these people are. One agent trusted by these 75 accompanied others to the U.S. Interest Section in Havana to receive money, instructions, materials and communications devices. This happened on several occasions and much information was gathered, and then arrests, trials and convictions.

  • Les Slater

    They were not in jail for any political belief or legal activity.

  • Arch Conservative

    “No, Arizona is trying to keep out men that the federal government wants to transform into PFC Rodriguez, PFC Gonzales and PFC Moreno.”

    Do you have stats that backup that implication that a sizable portion of these Mexican illegals are joing the military Irene?

    I don’t but if I had to giesstimate I’d say it’s in the neighbor hood of less than 2%. Not that impressive from where I sit.

    I know though………….the ones who join the military are only the ones who haven’t come here to work hard and have a better life……..the ones who mow our lawns, till our gardens, clean our pools etc etc etc……….those poor poor people…………

    You can’t see it right now but I got the world’s smallest violin going with my right hand and boy is it playing some sad music……….

    Here’s an idea…………if Mexico is such a corrupt impoverished shithole, maybe Mexicans ought to grow some f-ing balls, man up and do whatever it takes to make their own nation a better place instead of coming here and exponentially expediting the process of making this country an impoverished shithole……….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Athena,

    Reread #98 and Baronius’s comment. Marx’s analysis of capitalism hasn’t been rebuked, and that’s what Baronius was implying through his sleigh of hand.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #140

    Hunter,

    Where did you ever get such a preposterous idea? It this your recent turn to logic by trying to build strawmen?

    My critique is of the capitalist system; I have only a very vague idea what would work to replace it. But certainly a totalitarian regime is not what I have in mind.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “He’s almost as much of a religious fanatic as I am, only about Communism.”

    But you’ve just discredited yourself, Irene – never mind Les now.

    Fanaticism clouds the mind, don’t you think?

  • Arch Conservative

    I wonder how many people snuck across our southern border while comments 152 – 154 were being written.

    I wonder what the net cost to American citizens of those illegals being here will be?

    I wonder if any of those illegals will cause the death of legal American citizens?

    I wonder how many of them will vote for Obama in 2012…….actually I don’t wonder about that one at all…………

    But why wonder about such things when we have much more practical things to posit on such as how Marx viewed capitalism.

  • Arch Conservative

    The previous post wasn’t meant to insult you Roger, especially seeing as you’re my biggest defender on this site as of late but rather to veer back to the original topic of the thread.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Archie, I wouldn’t even think it. And if I am your defender. it’s because I know you’re trying to be honest with yourself and speak your mind. I would defend anyone for qualities such as these.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    147 – Les,

    You missed the govt that murdered over 4 million civilians in secret wars, which actions have been dubbed “The Third World War” by one of its former chief operatives in such missions, John Stockwell.

    Don’t bother discussing this though, they always have just glossed over it. It doesn’t fit in with the narrative they have invested themselves in as good indoctrinates.

    Oh beautiful for spacious skies for amber waves of grain…(sniff).

  • Cannonshop

    There are plenty of Ortegas, Morenos, Arguellos, Martinez, etc. in the U.S. military as it stands, Uncle Sam only cares if you can fog a mirror and pass the ASVAB.

    Notably, service in the U.S. Military is a route to LEGITIMATE citizenship (had a Norwegian fellow in Battery C who was doing that back around ’94…)

    so that argument’s empty of content.

    Fact is, Libs want Illegals to mow their lawn, watch their kids, do their gardening, clean their homes, fix their roofs, build their fence and paint their houses, because they don’t want to pay Americans to do these things-Americans cost more, and if you’re a Lib running a business, you’d have to actually file a W-4 and pay taxes on Americans.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Whoa, don’t call it an argument, Cannonshop. It was an observation, and it was an observation along the same lines you made: the federal govt vs. AZ isn’t pure humanitarianism vs. heartlessness.

    Without the federal government move to soften the anti-Latino vibe in AZ currently, fewer Mexicans are going to even CONSIDER taking advantage of the military’s route to citizenship.

  • Les Slater

    “Without the federal government move to soften the anti-Latino vibe in AZ currently…”

    This vibe is more of a myth than reality.

    From the Arizona Republic:

    “One true thing rises above all the controversy over Senate Bill 1070: People know it is not the answer.

    “Yes, polls show the state’s ill-conceived immigration law is popular.

    “But polls also show that the people understand complexities their political leaders ignore.

    “An Arizona Republic poll found 62 percent support allowing illegal immigrants who are living here now to remain in the country if they have a job and no criminal record.

    “The same poll found 55 percent of Arizonans support SB 1070.

    “The strategy often damned as ‘amnesty’ is more popular than the get-tough law.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Here are some of the other states trying to fall in lock-step with AZ.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The State of Arizona will not tolerate Senate Bill 1070 racial profiling. You may not question any individual because they look to be of Mexican descent.

  • Cannonshop

    #160 An Anti-Latino vibe as you put it would be local political suicide in Arizona or New Mexico, Irena. There are LOTS of American Citizens living in that area whose ancestry dates to Cortez and earlier, whites are (for the most part) a minority and have been since before the demographers started cooking up the “Hispanic isn’t white” on Government Forms and polling data.

    Interestingly enough, the same judge in Colorado has a history of ruling politically and Left, sometimes HARD left, one notable example being his ruling striking down the “Stolen Valor Act of 2004″, We’ll see if this ruling makes it through appeal once it’s in the hands of a Judge who isn’t trying to get an Obama-Sponsorship to the Supreme Court by ruling in ignorance.

  • AJAX

    Go Arizona!!!!! STAY STRONG and don’t let the illegal’s take over your state. I am 1000% behind ALL US states that follow Arizona new immigration law. Enough is enough!!!!! The United States is FINALLY fed up with you crying illegal Mexicans. First of all ….NO ONE IS RACIST ….we the people of the United States DO NOT want our country (as any other country would) flooded with ILLEGAL persons with some entering with a FELONY or a MURDER background …..some with a VIOLENT GANG MEMBERS associations or even a TERRORIST. etc. ANY illegal person that enters a country illegally DOES NOT HAVE ANY RIGHTS that the citizens of that same country have. Secondly – we United States citizens don’t want the United States overtaken by illegal persons of any race south or north of the United States border and by persons who do not care about the USA government and culture or wish to properly learn and understand the English language. All LEGALLY (or otherwise) entering immigrants should appreciate and respect the United States culture and history and celebrate the fourth of July and NOT “Cinco de Mayo” within the USA. Celebrate “Cinco de Mayo” within MEXICO. If you want to come to the United States ….well then behave and live like a United States citizen and respect our laws and our people. And with many Mexicans believing that the USA was stolen from them hundreds of years ago; that’s what the illegal Mexican agenda is really all about – to take back the USA. Well I got news for ya …..sorry Mexico it WILL NOT HAPPEN. We USA legal citizens MUST do something to control our OUT-OF-CONTROL country borders. If the Mexican community in Mexico (or elsewhere) wish to enter the USA …enter LEGALLY just as everyone else has to do …that’s the LAW and there are NO exceptions to this rule. If you do not like our laws …STAY in Mexico …it’s just as simple as that. Don’t dictate to the United States on how we should run and enforce our country laws. The illegal Mexican people currently residing in the United States and those protesting should turn their disputes and energies toward the Mexican government on creating a better and stronger Mexican government so that Mexican citizens would not have to leave Mexico to come to the USA. This is NOT Racism so quit calling it that …..It’s ILLEGALISM ….meaning: the on-going violation, neglect and disrespect of the United States Federal Laws and our citizens. If YOU DO NOT LIKE THE UNITED STATES AND OUR LAWS LEAVE and don’t let the door hit you on the way out! You want RIGHTS ….Your RIGHTS are in MEXICO. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO STAY THEIR! Well MEXICO ….the United States citizens is TIRED of your bull and excuses.

    And if our present US Government officials attempt to try to pass ANY NEW immigration reform laws to keep illegal immigrants here under ANY conditions – this amendment should be included within the NEW immigration reform bill: ALL illegal Mexicans or otherwise in order to become a United States citizen MUST actively serve four years or more in the US Military over in Iraq or Afghanistan, etc., in order to prove your United States patronage (males and females). NOTE: ALL entering illegal immigrants can start today by going here to immediately sign-up: army.mil/

    WELCOME TO NEW AMERICA AMIGO!!!!!

    ENTER THE USA LEGALLY JUST AS ALL IMMIGRANTS HAVE TO DO AND YOU WILL BE WELCOMED TO THE UNITED STATES BY EVERYONE. BUT PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THAT WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES ARE FINALLY FED UP WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AND THE CORRUPT UNITED STATES POLITICIANS WHO SUPPORT IT JUST TO GAIN A VOTE! Your problem is Mexico NOT the USA. SO GET OUT and GET OUT NOW UNLESS YOU WISH TO IMMIGRATE LEGALLY!

    AJ
    Black American
    Las Vegas, NV

  • Cannonshop

    Ajax, chill… deep breaths? Okay, remember that one Federal Judge doesn’t overturn the Arizona law-that’s going to have to take Nine of them, eight of which weren’t appointed by the current, pro-illegals, pro-felons-voting, pro-denying the vote to deployed soldiers administration-the one with the Attorney General who can’t read.

    ‘kay?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    AJ,

    After reading your fear comment, I am curious to know if you served four years active duty.

  • Les Slater

    I spent several hours at a party yesterday. One of the guests was an African who was wearing a t-shirt labled “Homeland Security”, the picture was that of several Native Americans with the caption “Since 1492″.

  • Les Slater

    Homeland Security – Fighting Terrorism Since 1492 – Geronimo

    You can see the t-shirt on eBay.

  • zingzing

    “Go Arizona!!!!! STAY STRONG and don’t let the illegal’s take over your state.”

    just don’t tell anyone to learn english.

    “I am 1000% behind ALL US states that follow Arizona new immigration law.”

    or math…

  • Arch Conservative

    Ajax’s take on the issue is far more representative of mainstream America than you’re own zing.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Go Geronimo!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Where was Ajax’s zeal when, Bush and Cheney ran this country into the ground?

    Such a big mouth now…it’s a shame all that energy apparently was wasted.

  • Les Slater

    “Ajax’s take on the issue is far more representative of mainstream America than you’re own zing.”

    I doubt it, certainly not representative of the Arizona Republic’s poll respondants.

  • zingzing

    archie: “Ajax’s take on the issue is far more representative of mainstream America than you’re own zing.”

    you go brush up on your english as well. and your math.

  • Les Slater

    zing, you’re picky today.

  • Les Slater

    I think Ajax used ‘their’ when it should’ve been ‘there’, but so what? It don’t think it confused too many.

  • zingzing

    les, ajax also used the possessive when he meant the plural (“illegal’s”), and archie can’t get his possessive correct (“you’re”) either. it’s just a crack on the whole “i’m too fucking lazy to press 1 for english and i’m going to complain about it in english to people who presumably don’t speak the language because that’s how i get things done” crowd.

    (i know it’ll bite me in the ass. being a grammar nazi always does. but it was too much to pass up.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Worry not, brethren. Ajax commits an honorable suicide by falling on Hector’s own sword.

    Judging by his rage, his days are numbered.

  • Arch Conservative

    I know the difference between your and you’re you jackhole..

    You’ve been reading my posts long enough to know I make typos and not grammatical errors.

  • Zedd

    zing, Les,

    I assume that you don’t live in boarder states.

    How far is this supposed to go. The Mexican government is tisk tisking at us for simply requiring their citizens to have the PROPER papers when on our soil, when the issue is that they (the Mexican government) doesn’t have their act together so their people escape to this country. It’s standard practice to have your documentation when traveling to another country. Why not in this instance. When is illegal, illegal.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zedd,

    How far should you go when you hear someone speaking French in the great state of Arizona? What about, Polish, Russian, or Mandarin?

    simply requiring their citizens to have the PROPER papers when on our soil?

    so…if the answer is of course not, then it’s much more than ID…It’s profiling and it’s wrong!

    :O No police states.

  • Les Slater

    Zed,

    Before moving to Chicago, I lived in Detroit, which is a border city in a border state.

    At the party I was at yesterday was one of the central leaders of the immigrant rights movement in the Midwest. He pointed out that some jurisdiction in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula actually voted a law mandating stopping ALL those that might be suspected of being an ‘illegal alien’. It got shelved pretty quickly when it was pointed out that most of those were from Canada. And, of course, it’s claimed nobody’s interested in any kind of racial profiling.

    Les

  • Zedd

    I make typos and grammatical errors when I type too fast or am multitasking or just not paying attention. For a while I had a possessed cursor so I’d start typing and find myself invading a sentence two paragraphs back. Admittedly, I spend too little time editing and voila… a mess. However, what is most important is the weight of my assertions. We are exchanging ideas.

    zing you cant even be bothered to capitalize but that doesn’t mean that you don’t know that it’s necessary when writing under different circumstances.

    When we are on BC, especially those of us who have been conversing or years, we are talking to one another. Just talking. Because of that, the rules change. We are allowed to be much more colorful and interesting. We are not exchanging essays.

    It is my belief that we have nothing to prove. Only our ideas and logic speak for us. While I have on occasion posted gibberish because of the reasons mentioned above, and felt a warm wash of embarrassment after reading what I had submitted, for he most part, I am more interested in your ideas.

    So please mesmerize me with your thought. The internet is full of good essays. I just want to read your ideas, in your voice, imperfect and uncertain. That is what makes this site fascinating to me.

  • Les Slater

    I could see Canada from my apartment.

  • zingzing

    zedd: “zing you cant even be bothered to capitalize but that doesn’t mean that you don’t know that it’s necessary when writing under different circumstances.”

    i know, i know. it was just a bit of fun.

    “It’s standard practice to have your documentation when traveling to another country. Why not in this instance?”

    because it’s things like this that will turn our nation into a police state. if you do something wrong, or have an accident, or want to buy a beer, or enter a 21 and up club, or do anything else wherein by doing so you need to produce identification, then you’d better have your identification. but if you’re walking down the street and you look like a mexican, that’s not good enough reason for the police to make you produce your papers.

    there’s a slippery slope and this law is attached to our collective foot and it’s really heavy and heading downhill.

  • Les Slater

    And I’ve lived in Texas and California.

  • Les Slater

    “…but if you’re walking down the street and you look like a mexican, that’s not good enough reason for the police to make you produce your papers.”

    Remember ‘Born in East L.A.’?

  • Zedd

    jeannie,

    I think you missed what the law said. If a person is being stopped or investigated for a crime, it is then that the police should check their papers.

    Do you live in a boarder state?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There are an estimated 27,000 deserted oil wells in the gulf just off the coast of La.

    no-one is routinely checking them and they are all rotting away.

    Don’t worry Jeannie, the free market will eventually take care of them. Hail Milton Friedman!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    171 LMAO @zing

    169 – Les, I love that homeland security design.1

  • Zedd

    @zingo

    “because it’s things like this that will turn our nation into a police state.”

    No it wont. France is not a police state. England is not. Neither are any of the countries that we consider to be freedom loving, BUT they require that one has documentation when moving about their land.

    What you really miss is that the law says that a request for the proper documentation is only made if the individual is being investigated or pulled over for breaking the law.

    Do you live in a boarder state?

  • Zedd

    Les,

    Your comment is not so clever. Not in this instance.

    The issues that we are having are not race based. Its crime. REAL crime – kidnappings, drug running, gang infestations, neighborhoods being overrun, by non citizens. It is getting worse because it is becoming part of our landscape; how we live. Entire neighborhoods are being swallowed up. While the economic crisis has caused a slow down in immigration, there are millions still here. Our medical facilities are overrun. Our taxes are going up to pay for free lunches, and emergency room stays. It is a disturbance of our quality of life.

    It’s not racial. It’s practical. There are real problems and they are not caused by Americans, nor our guests, what do you propose we do?

  • Les Slater

    “…and they are not caused by Americans…”

    Then who are you talking about?

  • Les Slater

    Chicago has one of the highest concentrations of Mexican immigrants in the country. I live in a Mexican immigrant neighborhood. I KNOW many don’t have documentation. And who does the English language mainstream press talk about when they hysterically refer to rampant crime here? It’s the Black community.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    We are allowed to be much more colorful and interesting, we are not exchanging essays.

    :)whewww, that makes me feel much better about my writing limitations.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Crime is in the eye of beholder, Zedd, in this case the ruling classes intending to split the plebs by incarcerating the most “troublesome” and aggressive segment of the population. Those who are deemed more malleable are recruited into the police force and/or the military. The net effect and the desirable result is that the working stiffs are effectively segregated to form a docile underclass all to itself. And it’s those working stiffs that capitalism exploits. Mission accomplished. So Les is right on target when it comes to crime.

    Cindy, I left you a couple of emails while back but you haven’t responded. We’ve got to talk.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That is a separate issue, Les

    The issues that we are having are not race based. Its crime. REAL crime – kidnappings, drug running, gang infestations, neighborhoods being overrun, by non citizens.

    The answer is not to go stormtrooping down every street and ally in patrol cars, just checking paper-work of non-Caucasian looking people.

  • Les Slater

    “…just checking paper-work of non-Caucasian looking people.”

    I believe they see it as sport.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing claims laziness for not capitalizing. My take is, it’s a show of contempt, his personal trademark.

    There’s of course another explanation:

    “Hey, don’t hold me to any rigorous standards of writing and thought,” he telegraphs. “It’s the internet and anything goes. Besides,I’m lazy.”

    Under the circumstances, his criticism of Archie is ludicrous indeed.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zedd

    I defend the Mexican people who have risked their very lives to come here to pick crops, clean toilets, and suckle babies. because it was better than the hell they lived in.

    For all everyone’s lamenting about how bad France-the socialists have it…I don’t see French people dying in the scrub or drowning in the Niagara to come here!

    Yes, I live in a northern border state.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Hey, Roger :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I agree wholeheartedly with #197.

  • Les Slater

    Speaking of cop’s racial profiling as sport, I just saw a statement from Robert Gates, Secretary of ‘Defense’, ‘there’s also a moral culpability, and that’s where I think WikiLeaks is guilty.’ Reminds me of Arlo Guthrie’s ‘Alice’s Restaurant Massacre’ where, when trying to convince the recruiting shrink he’s unfit for military duty by jumping up and down and shouting ‘kill, kill’ finds the shrink joining him.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I try to block all of the commercials, but a chicken slipped through…

    :) it’s lunch time, bye

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol Jeannie…a chicken slipped through

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    197 – Sorry old bean, I have not checked my email in a few days. Will get on it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    185 – lol Les…

    (I hope that was a Sarah Palin allusion.)

  • Les Slater

    “I hope that was a Sarah Palin allusion.”

    No, and I believe there’s more than a little truth to her perspective on that issue. I forgot, I also lived in Alaska, another border state.

  • Les Slater

    And, oh yes, Vermont and New York.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I thought you would, Jeannie.

    We’ll make a radical out of you yet, to everyone’s consternation.

  • Doug Hunter

    I don’t know where to draw the line on profiling. While I know that if a woman claims to be raped by a white man, it is nonsensical to spend as much time scrutinizing a female or black man as the suspect. Likewise, if you’re looking for illegal immigrants who come primarily from Mexico and Central America it’s silly to waste your time with english speaking white or blacks.

    In any case, the moral certitude typically displayed on these types of issues puzzles me greatly… then again, I’m a waffly relativist and what have we ever accomplished!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Aw, too bad, Les, it worked really well as a joke. But, oooops for my interpretation!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Crime is in the eye of beholder, Zedd, in this case the ruling classes intending to split the plebs by incarcerating the most “troublesome” and aggressive segment of the population. Those who are deemed more malleable are recruited into the police force and/or the military.

    And that is a great summary there, Roger. I would add not only the troublesome, but are simply excess who are unsuitable for the military due to age, etc., yet can’t get adequate jobs. I know a couple of black men, one young and one older, who have an enormous amount of trouble getting any work at all that lasts. This is even though they are willing to work in factories for minimum wage. Constant lay-offs keep them asking if I have any work. I try to give them as much as I can afford to help me in my yard and do necessary maintenance at the company. They are able and willing to work. Yet one is repeatedly thrown in jail for failing to provide child support. He just went in for 60 days. That will be 60 days where he will make no money to care for his child. How the hell is throwing people in jail because they don’t have money helpful?

    The young man did try to join the military but was not accepted. I think that is a good thing.

    Unfortunately that seems to be the choice for younger black male workers here who have children…join the military or go to jail if you can’t find adequate work. The older ones with children have no choice. Off to jail.

    And, for the record, both men are involved in the care of their children and are loving fathers. They simply happen not to live with, as one says, his “baby mother”.

  • Les Slater

    “…it worked really well as a joke.”

    If you reread my 209, you might notice I took issue with that as a joke.

  • Doug Hunter

    #214 I tried the same thing when I was young and naive once. Participated in a little gentrification project. It worked for a day and a half until I left for lunch and came back to find my helpers gone and garage emptied of tools (never to be seen again). My experience with the poor is that there is often a simple and obvious reason for their condition. If you want to break the cycle of poverty you need to do it when they’re kids, as adults they’re often a handful.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Yes, I see, bad of me.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    But you didn’t say why. Want to explain?

  • Doug Hunter

    Cindy, in #216 I was referencing your attempt at helping the poor by giving them work if it wasn’t clear. This isn’t by any stretch my only experience with the poor, just another that shapes my reality.

  • Les Slater

    I did say I lived in Alaska. Do you know where that is? It not only borders Canada and for all practical purposes Russia but is also the one place in the United States that is closest to most points in the northern hemisphere.

  • Les Slater

    I was stationed at a SAC base just outside Fairbanks for 14 months, including two winters.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The young man did try to join the military but was not accepted. I think that is a good thing.

    and that’s a good thing!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Okay, Les. But no one ever suggested that Sarah Palin couldn’t see Russia from Alaska. The point was she used that fact as an explanation how she knew all about Russia, as if seeing it from Alaska somehow made her some sort of authority on it.

    That is the joke.

  • Les Slater

    When I was there in ’72 and ’73, it was clear to me that the governor knew much more about Russia than most other politicians. I suspect in many respects this is still true.

  • Les Slater

    Much of the criticism of her appealed to a crude sexism. Even JOKES about her minor aged daughter being raped were not condemned by most liberals.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    219 – Doug, it does not surprise me at all that that is the story you chose to reinforce for yourself about poor people. It is an incantation of the dominant culture, it is indoctrinated and I am never surprised when I find people believe that explanation.

    The poor are basically just bad or lazy or otherwise to blame for their circumstances. Especially, living as we all know they do here, in the land of opportunity where everything is handed to them.

    Sorry your experiences didn’t leave you feeling like a hero. But, you know what? Here is my guess. Whatever experiences you have with the poor, you are bound to marginalize any that would suggest some other story or explanation. You are bound to believe the one that supports your bias about why the poor are poor.

    And that is how your attitude contributes to the poor remaining poor. When we don’t see the actual causes of things we can’t change them.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Sarah Palin, as a viable candidate for the oval office is an insult to our collective intelligences.

    as if…

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    225 – I agree with what you say there. But the joke about seeing Russia was not among those. It was neither sexist, nor crude.

    I don’t care for Sarah Palin. I wouldn’t support sexist jokes about her. However, it doesn’t mean I would not joke about her.

    I was very repulsed by some of what was said like the milf jokes and those about her daughter and a number of other things that were sexist. But being in for a penny, doesn’t mean I’m in for a pound.

  • Les Slater

    Jeannie,

    And you take the guy on the top of their ticket any more seriously, or Biden, Gore or even Obama?

  • Les Slater

    The most serious, and reactionary of them is Hillary.

  • Les Slater

    “It was neither sexist, nor crude.”

    It’s ill-informed.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I don’t care for Hillary, possibly even more than I don’t care for Palin. (hmmm, maybe I dislike the equally.) (And I will throw all the others you mentioned into the pot of people I don’t care for.)

    Really, when I think of it, the only politicians I can actually like are Bernie Sanders and maybe, just maybe, Al Franken (but I would have to see what he is up to, as I don’t follow politicians much).

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It’s ill-informed.

    So, you think one can be an expert on Russia merely because one can see Russia from where one lives?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I think it is a classic Palinism , which belies her ignorant and shallow thinking process.

  • Les Slater

    Re 233, No, it’s the history of the military importance of Alaska. I saw it when I was there and much of what was there in ’72 and ’73 still was true until 2007. Satellite intelligence has supplanted the radio and airborne recon but that was a major factor in Alaska’s relation with the federal government, especially the military. What she said was true and whether or not she fully understood it is beside the point. To not only dismiss it but to use it as evidence of her being a ding-bat or some such and making it the butt of jokes is not only ill-informed but rests on a cultivated attack that she was just a pretty housewife taking care of a husband and the kids.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I will have to agree and disagree with you. I am sure many people would joke about Palin with your petty housewife scenario in mind–so I think you are right in part. However, I don’t think that is the only reason for joking about her intellect.

    Further, for me personally to refrain from joking about Palin’s intellect, merely because she is female, yet to engage in joking about Bush’s intellect, would be what I would consider sexist itself.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    So, in summary: My joking about Palin’s intellect has nothing to do with her housewife position, for me. If someone has to be in charge I would almost always prefer a housewife to any of the idiots that have been groomed for the positions of leadership.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Palin likes being anti-intellectual and her fans like her more because of it, dismayingly. But “refudiate” will be her “potatoe.”

  • Les Slater

    I seriously doubt that Sarah Palin is as dim-witted as she is made out to be. That’s also true of both Bushes. I think in the case of Palin the campaign has been to paint her as just a dumb housewife. This is not only sexist but reeks of hatred of the working class.

  • zingzing

    zedd: “Do you live in a boarder state?”

    yep. new york borders canada. also, isn’t it a crime to be an illegal alien? so couldn’t they pull you over and check your papers for being one? the letter of the law sounds fine on paper, but in practice, the spirit of the law is an evil, corrosive thing.

    roger: “Zing claims laziness for not capitalizing. My take is, it’s a show of contempt, his personal trademark.”

    IF I WROTE IN ALL CAPS, I’D BE YELLING. AND THAT’S NOT WHAT I WANT. IS IT WHAT YOU WANT?

    “There’s of course another explanation: Hey, don’t hold me to any rigorous standards of writing and thought,” he telegraphs. “It’s the internet and anything goes. Besides,I’m lazy.”

    YOU MISSED A SPACE AFTER THAT LAST COMMA. BUT WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE.

    “Under the circumstances, his criticism of Archie is ludicrous indeed.”

    THAT MIGHT BE TRUE, BUT YOU KNOW, SO IS MY POINT. YELLING AT SOMEONE TO LEARN ENGLISH IF YOU THINK THEY DON’T KNOW THE LANGUAGE IS A RATHER POINTLESS AND STUPID EXERCISE.

    can i go back to being more relaxed now, or would that be too lazy for roger’s strict standards, oh king?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Yes, I agree it can be sexist as well as exemplifying hatred of the working class, Les.

    Off topic, but here is something I wanted to say since I got up this morning. I am not sure if you will find it of interest. But I will put it in this comment to you, Les. You never know.

    Roger, I hope you pick this comment up as this book might be very important. Decolonizing Methodologies. Please try even the first few paragraphs of the introduction and see what you think.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    In case I failed to make it clear, I think that book may be important and I offer it for the perusal of all interested persons.

    LMAO zing…that is hilarious.

  • Ruvy

    I looked over a few of the comments and noticed some interesting things.

    1. Jeannie Dana lecturing Zedd on profiling and crime – when Zedd has seen a whole lot more of both in her life. Reading Jeannie Dana’s finger wagging at Zedd was really amusing.

    2. The normal stupid jokes about Sarah Palin – while nobody noticed that she is the only person who has to the balls to say that Obama didn’t have the “cojones” to handle the immigration problem. Another home run hit for Sister Sarah. Another series of errors for the snots who look down on her.

    When you have her money, then look down on her. Till then, at least show her the respect a person who knows how to rake in the cash deserves.

    And do recognize that she has the nasty habit of calling things as they are, when the rest of you are busy denying reality.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “When you have her money, then look down on her. Till then, at least show her the respect a person who knows how to rake in the cash deserves.”

    what respect do they deserve just because they can rake in the cash? obama has more money than you do, remember.

    and she doesn’t call things as they are… she parrots right wing talking points and spreads ignorance and just makes shit up. just because you agree with her doesn’t make her right, you know.

  • zingzing

    alternately, roger, those who say “no, i don’t want to press 1 for english, this is america, learn english” are seemingly yelling for people to learn english, when, clearly, by asking you to press 1 for english, the target of such requests already knows the language. either way, it’s logically pointless.

    and then when this type of idiot starts writing these requests in improper english, full of typos and grammatical mistakes, it’s just something that begs for a little lashing, isn’t it?

    i think so.

  • Les Slater

    And just because I condemn sexist and class attacks on Sarah Palin does not mean I agree with what she says in general. Her campaign was used as an experiment by the extreme right to put forward a fascist message to see if it would fly. The time was not ripe and the ruling class did not come to her defense.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Right Les, I wouldn’t imagine you would agree with her in general.

    Her campaign was used as an experiment by the extreme right to put forward a fascist message to see if it would fly.

    That is an interesting idea. I never thought of it like that.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Even JOKES about her minor aged daughter being raped were not condemned by most liberals.”

    Probably because that JOKE wasn’t made as anyone who was paying attention knows. Letterman’s joke was obviously intended to be about Palin’s daughter Bristol, who was 18 when the joke was made, and Alex Rodriguez, but staff didn’t bother to research what family members were in attendance at ball game.

    The fact that Palin had raised no issue when Jay Leno made a similar joke about John Edwards getting her then 17-year-old daughter pregnant hints at the phoniness of her outrage. She just used the admittedly tasteless joke to go after Letterman who had been mocking her for months.

    Family should be off limits, although it’s hard to muster sympathy when the candidate uses them as props as Palin frequently does.

    Save the righteous indignation for things that actually happen.

    “nobody noticed that she is the only person who has to the balls to say that Obama didn’t have the “cojones” to handle the immigration problem.”

    If you think she is only one to call out Obama about immigration, you aren’t paying attention.

  • Ruvy

    what respect do they deserve just because they can rake in the cash? obama has more money than you do, remember.

    Obama made his money initially by playing the race card in one way or another. After that, he stole money as a consultant for ACORN. Palin got hers by giving value for the money. The mere fact that you do not like those values is rather irrelevant. Others did and were willing to pay cash. So my respect for Palin is considerably higher than my respect for a sleaze like Obama. Comparing a sleaze to a person who gives value for the money is the accurate comparison of Obama and Palin.

  • Ruvy

    Palin is not the only person to call out Obama. Not by any means. But she is the only one who had the guts to characterize Obama of being a castrato in this matter.

  • Les Slater

    “…but staff didn’t bother to research…”

    Convenient, isn’t it?

    “The fact that Palin had raised no issue when Jay Leno made a similar joke about John Edwards getting her then 17-year-old daughter pregnant hints at the phoniness of her outrage.”

    Just because Palin is scum doesn’t mean Letterman isn’t. All such jokes, regardless of the age of subject, are sick and should be stongly condemned.

  • Les Slater

    Not excused!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    #249 is outright lies and BS.

    :)This wouldn’t be BC for me without Ruvy!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    and…what would he be bitching about, if McCain/Palin had won?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Les,

    Who else do we have?

  • Les Slater

    We were talking about that at the party I was at yesterday til late. We scheduled August 28 to concentrate on just that subject.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Obama, is IMO the greatest president to serve in my-life-time.

    It is not a big secret, what the controlling class did when they realized John and Sarah weren’t going to be the plug-ins as planned…So, they drained all the money and assets…oh to be a fly on Hank’s 0ffice wall, just before the fall.

    Now we can’t remember how this all happened, but it’s got to be all Obama’s fault?

    :)OBAMA!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    August 28th? any input welcome from the little people?

  • Les Slater

    The answer is… ourselves. We have to develop a leadership from the ground up.

  • Les Slater

    “any input welcome from the little people?”

    You already are, and don’t consider yourself so little.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    :)thanks Les- now I don’t know what to say.

    I’ll be back later- Hercule Poirot is on soon.

  • Les Slater

    I just watched Murder on the Orient Express recently.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Je t’aime Poirot. (-:

  • Zedd

    Les,

    It’s one thing to deal with issues that are created by your own kid for reasons that you may have contributed in creating, then dealing issues which affect your quality of life, that are created by a stranger’s kid. You certainly wouldn’t be willing to pay for them.

    Again, it’s clear that neither of you understand the problem YET. You are busy pontificating and speaking in generalities… chuckle. You will soon understand.

    roger my friend,

    Give me a break. Kidnapping, brutal killings, destroying communities, vandalism do not make up murky criminal offenses. These crimes affect the regular guy as well as the wealthy, in AZ. You have no idea the extent of destruction and brutality that is being perpetuated by these Mexican drug cartels. I-35 is being taken over by these individuals. If you think we have a problem with Middle Eastern terror, just wait.

    Jeannie,

    Your notion seems very idealistic. The reality is that its not as you imagine. Are you in a boarder town?

  • Les Slater

    Zedd,

    Drugs? Cannabis should be totally decriminalized and high quality shit should be available at reasonable prices. Other drugs should be available by prescription along with extensive treatment regimen.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ruvy (#249), clearly our definitions of “value for money” differ. But then again, you think Burger King is a restaurant.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Convenient, isn’t it?”

    More like lazy and poorly thought out. Ever been in a writer’s room?

    “All such jokes, regardless of the age of subject, are sick and should be stongly condemned.”

    No, they aren’t. Each joke should be judged on its own merit as everything has the potential to be framed in an amusing manner. There’s no need for some grand pronouncement decreeing what are acceptable subjects to make fun of. Sets a bad precedent.

  • Les Slater

    What we have is a pornification of politics and it ain’t good.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Pornification? Really?

    I think what we have is what we’ve always had: a little blue humour. And there ain’t nothing wrong with that.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    So we can’t say all rape jokes are in poor taste and strongly condemn them? How about jokes about baby molesters, racist jokes okay?

    Everything is funny depending on how it’s framed?

    No, it’s not. And i doubt that you even think so El-B. It is just that implied rape jokes, like the one that Letterman made about an 18 year old child are typically okay with the average American.

    Well it’s not okay if you actually like women. And it’s not okay to make such a joke regarding women of any age.

    I agree with Les. And I am happy to see a man standing up for women’s rights against liberals who generally tolerate degradation of women (since it’s normal and acceptable and all). Actually, the mainstream culture tells men that it’s biological that they desire to degrade women. They can’t help it.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Everything is funny depending on how it’s framed?

    Considering that humour is entirely subjective, I’d have to say “yes.” More accurately, everything has the potential to be funny.

    The world’s greatest comedians knew that nothing could be “out of bounds.” They knew that jokes were methods of expressing outrage (see Bill Hicks) or exposing corruption or double standards in ways that were crude, snide, vile, profane, and so forth.

    So yes, again, the framing and context of a joke is everything. If we lose that, we lose everything.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And yes, Cindy, I hate women. But here’s the rub: I hate men too.

  • Les Slater

    Many thing have the potential to be funny. I think Monty Python’s ‘I’m not dead yet’ is funny.

    Letterman crossed the line. People thought it was funny because their political hatred of Sarah Palin. Rape is not primarily sexual, it’s putting a women in her place by force where they are presumed to belong.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Well at least you are an equal opportunity hater. (And much of the time I can empathize. Because I often hate everyone–well, almost everyone.)

    Don’t worry though, men who are already grown won’t be able to compare with future generations. Men of the future should be a real barrel of love. What can one expect the opinions to be in a culture where American Pie and Scary Movie are not only considered funny for kids to watch, they are each up to at least 4 sequels.

    Young boys play video games where they kill prostitutes. Video: GTA IV prostitutes: how do you kill yours? This is a normal conversational topic. This guy says he likes to use a baseball bat and invites you to come along and watch while he murders a prostitute in his video game.

    I cannot ever turn on the channel display on TV anymore without wondering how I can stand anyone in the world or even care about it at all. It mostly seems really crazy to me.

    Anything goes! The right to consume has become holy. In an excellent marketing maneuver, the pig has replaced the prig. People are so alienated that don’t even see that it’s destructive. They actually think it’s freedom! (choke) Freedom without justice is worthless, imo.

    This isn’t about censorship mind you, but it is about criticism.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    That said, many things have the potential to be funny, imo too. Human degradation is not ever one of them.

    I do understand satire can be used to express outrage. And in that sense I agree with El-B. Each joke on its own merit.

    Letterman’s, imo, had no merit. (Unless one is a Libertarian, then one would say that as long as it made money for the network, it had merit.)

  • Jordan Richardson

    I didn’t take Letterman’s joke as a joke about rape, so there’s some difficulties I’m having with that entire situation being characterized as such in the first place.

    The joke is: “During the seventh inning, her daughter was knocked up by Alex Rodriguez.”

    The joke’s intent was towards thte 18 year old daughter, whose “abstinence” practices have been lampooned routinely. It’s a case of hypocrisy more than anything else, trotted out by the political elite on the Right for gain. Letterman’s joke turns that on its head.

    However, the mistake was in which daughter was actually at the game in question. Palin and her husband proceed to spin it as a joke about “rape,” a narrative you’ve clearly picked up on, and all bets are off.

    Letterman apologizes and explains:

    “Am I guilty of poor taste? Yes. Did I suggest that it was okay for her 14-year-old daughter to be having promiscuous sex? No.”

    Rape is nowhere in the equation except in the spin-job done by the Palins.

  • Les Slater

    “…whose ‘abstinence’ practices have been lampooned routinely.”

    Does a woman have a right to not have sex until she decides to? It does indeed boil down to rape.

  • Jordan Richardson

    But Cindy, you’re leaving out the role that humour AND those video games (films too) in our society. It’s not the art or products or objects themselves that create the damage; it’s the role we assign them.

    I’m always wary about blanket criticisms because I think they’re cop-outs. It’s a way to point to some thing as being the Great Evil when the problem extends far beyond things. The inevitable human solution is, of course, to great rid of the thing. This isn’t helping, but yet we’ve been doing it for years. Heaven forbid we try to UNDERSTAND the nuance and context of the various objects we blame for our own idiocy, huh?

    Ever been to Japan? The Japanese interact regularly with material that most Americans would find morally reprehensible. Yet the level of crime and societal moral collapse in that country is minimal compared to what we see in America. Why is that?

    I sympathize with the view that the world is crazy because it is. It always has been. That is both the most exciting and most terrifying aspect of life. And if I can’t have a few laughs along the way or beat up a pixelated hooker, I don’t want to live.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Les, the girl was preggers and participated in unprotected sex with her boyfriend while telling others not to do it. Yes, she has a RIGHT. But we also have a right to call Bullshit!

    It’s not about rape; it’s about political moralizing to the grand population. Hypocrisy.

  • Les Slater

    She also has a right to decide as to whom she might have sex with. To allude to a seventh inning tyrst with a ballplayer is again more about puuting her in her place, as you put it, in her hypocritical place. It’s rape.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    18 year old daughter, whose “abstinence” practices have been lampooned routinely.

    I C, it was only a slut joke. Much different than an implied rape joke. Talking about a teenager the 62 year old man jokes about her being a slut. No misogyny here?

  • Jordan Richardson

    That’s a pretty broad definition, Les, and I don’t agree in the least.

    The problem is that such a mentality could theoretically imply that ALL jokes are about rape in that they put the subjects in places that they (the subjects) would otherwise not to be in.

    Rape, as you said and as I agree, is not sexual. Conceivably a joke about anyone being in ANY place/position “against their will” could be a joke “about rape.”

    Nobody removed Palin’s daughter’s rights in this case, though, and that’s what makes your line of argument so dangerous. You’re suggesting that even the hypothetical or fantastical “removal of a person’s rights” – male or female, I hope – is tantamount to a crime, thus a joke about a hypothetical tryst becomes a joke about a crime.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ah, Cindy, I get it. It’s ageism. The fact that Letterman is 62 years old bothers you too.

    Further to the “slut joke,” yes, that’s funny. And it’s funny because the “slut” harps on and on about abstinence. Painting her in the light of a hypothetical tart while preaching the value of abstinence to others is one of the oldest tricks in the comedy playbook. It’s a lampoon on hypocrisy, the subject is secondary to the context.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Lampooning abstinence practices–that is a fancy way of calling a woman a slut.

  • Jordan Richardson

    And there’s fucking misogyny AND misandry everywhere, Cindy. Everywhere.

  • Les Slater

    “…such a mentality could theoretically imply that ALL jokes…”

    No this one mentions getting knocked up.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Lampooning HYPOCRISY. Good Christ…

    It’s the same as going after certain Catholic Church leaders for telling us about abstinence on one hand while raping little boys behind closed doors. It’s not a commentary on the value of abstinence or even the horror of rape. It’s a commentary on the vile hypocrisy employed.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Obama made his money initially by playing the race card in one way or another. After that, he stole money as a consultant for ACORN.”

    really? is that where he got his money from? i thought it was book sales.

    “Palin got hers by giving value for the money.”

    what does that even mean? palin’s money-making schemes have landed her in some hot water, if you recall. haven’t seen any convictions, but she’s a politician, so i’d bet she’s no saint. but she basically seems to be making her money through book sales (same as obama) and giving speeches (kinda clintonesque, eh?).

    “The mere fact that you do not like those values is rather irrelevant.”

    completely. as is your problems with obama’s values. you said, “When you have her money, then look down on her. Till then, at least show her the respect a person who knows how to rake in the cash deserves.”

    it has nothing whatsoever to do with values. but i give no one respect simply because they know how to make money. neither, i think, do you. but that’s what you said. i say that’s silly.

    you’re contradicting yourself all over the place. if you could be objective for even a moment, your brain would explode.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I do disagree with her abstinence rhetoric. However, that doesn’t excuse an adult male from implying she’s a slut.

    Ageism? Really? That adults should treat youngsters with love and respect–that’s ageism? Or is it okay to consider girls fair game a soon as some arbitrary law says it’s okay?

    You don’t imagine the 18 year old girl might one day find she was wrong about abstinence? We shouldn’t be gentle with teens when they have differing opinions? Is that how you would handle an 18 year old who you thought was wrong?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Les, rape isn’t sexual. It’s about control and power. Any joke about a woman (or a man) being controlled and placed into a position against their will could, using your mentality, be a joke about rape.

    Please consider the entirety of my (and apparently your) argument, not just bits and pieces.

    Another log to the fire: what of Bristol Palin as a spokesperson FOR teen pregnancy, as with her People mag cover? That furthers the hypocrisy, as Bonnie Fuller put it to the HuffPo a while back, and further ignites the hysteria too.

    Says Fuller: The inside article, with dreamy full page photos, might as well be titled, “I’m 18, a mom and HOT…and you can be too!”

  • zingzing

    getting “knocked up” doesn’t imply “rape.” not one bit.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    And there’s fucking misogyny AND misandry everywhere, Cindy. Everywhere.

    Yes, there is. As I have often said, we live in a sick culture. It’s prevalent and therefore should be excused? I’m not sure what you mean by that. But I do agree there is. It’s one of the reasons the world is fairly intolerable imo. I think the sane thing to do is to counter it and fight against it. That’s what I do. I think it’s right.

    Just like when racist jokes were in vogue, some accept them and go along and say everyone does it. And some stand up and say it’s not okay. I am in the not okay camp.

  • Les Slater

    In this case it was smearing a young family member to get at a candidate for public office. It’s a bad sign that such is accepted, never mind defended.

    Don’t forget this is also in the context of a broad sexist campaign against this candidate. All of this should be repudiated in the strongest terms.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    hmmm, maybe they are still in vogue, come to think of it, I wouldn’t know.

  • zingzing

    cindy: “is it okay to consider girls fair game a soon as some arbitrary law says it’s okay?”

    jesus. and this started as a baseball joke. take the step… yeah, there you go…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ageism? Really?

    You brought up Letterman’s age, specifically. I presume this was done for a reason.

    That adults should treat youngsters with love and respect–that’s ageism?

    Absolutely not. That’s not even remotely close to what this is about, though.

    Or is it okay to consider girls fair game a soon as some arbitrary law says it’s okay?

    Fair game in terms of what, specifically? A joke? Yes. Real actions (not hypothetical ones)? Absolutely not. I’ve already outlined why the context matters, too, but apparently this is something that just has no place. It’s preferable, it seems, to just attack the surface rather than to understand other views and interpretations.

    You don’t imagine the 18 year old girl might one day find she was wrong about abstinence?

    I’d imagine that she’s bullshitting the population about abstinence, actually, and that, again, is the JOKE!

    Being “gentle” with her is hardly what her parents had in mind when they trotted her out to be a spokesperson for families, nor is it what she herself had in mind when doing magazine covers and inserting herself into the public eye. She’s not above criticism – or humour – any more than anyone else is, including Letterman himself. The jokes, ageist and otherwise, poured in when his affairs were revealed. I don’t imagine you were shouting “Please! Be gentle” then.

    What about Alex Rodriguez? Was he, too, raped by Letterman’s joke?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    278 – Jordan, I haven’t read that yet. I will tomorrow. I’d like to respond to it. But I have to run off before I turn into a pumpkin. Night all…

  • Jordan Richardson

    #292,

    But jokes about race, as Richard Pryor and other great comics knew, weren’t about being racist. They were about racism, about exploring it and taking its fucking power away, man. About making it something to laugh at, at getting through the PAIN with a smile rather than with glumness.

    Context is everything. There are jokes that are inherently racist, but those jokes can be robbed of their power.

    I can guarantee you that turning situations around using humour and well-timed jokes will do more good at fighting actual racism and sexism than any diatribe or discussion will. That’s just the way of our culture.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “So we can’t say all rape jokes are in poor taste and strongly condemn them?”

    You can say it but I won’t agree to it. While the vast majority likely will be in extremely poor taste, in the spirit of free speech and free expression I’d prefer to hear what the joke is first and make that determination for myself afterward.

    George Carlin has a bit entitled “Rape Can Be Funny” filled with amusing observations on the subject. Sam Kinison has a bit about necrophilia that has had arenas laughing at it. Not saying you would find them funny but others do.

    “implied rape jokes, like the one that Letterman made about an 18 year old child”

    Although it wasn’t an implied rape joke. It was a joke about the promiscuity of Bristol Palin, whose mother preaches abstinence before marriage, and Alex Rodriguez, whose defense I notice you and Les failed to come to.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I think Monty Python’s ‘I’m not dead yet’ is funny.”

    So you think jokes about murder are funny, Les?

  • Jordan Richardson

    #293,

    The joke was not political. In many ways, too, it was more about Rodriguez than Palin. But that part gets missed, not surprisingly, by those finding “rape” under every rock.

    It’s too bad that you can’t see the damage your ideology could do and how what you’re saying feeds into the ego and line of attack employed by Palin to control her voters and her family and perceptions of her family through her power and money. I’m actually amazed that you, almost of all people, have fallen headfirst into the trap because you mistakenly think it was a joke about rape and that it was a sexist attack on Palin.

    That’s what she’d love for you to think, all the while hocking her wares and imagery to control the public’s perception. And you buy it, all the way, because of the way you view humour as a whole. You missed the real joke and, as a result, sweep the real crimes under the rug. It’s a shame.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Does a woman have a right to not have sex until she decides to?”

    Please point to where in that joke Letterman stated the sex was non-consensual.

  • Les Slater

    “Please point to where in that joke Letterman stated the sex was non-consensual.”

    The Letterman joke itself placed placed the two together, neither consented to it. By simple inspection it is non-consensual.

  • Les Slater

    I learn something, who defends the Letterman joke and who doesn’t.

  • Jordan Richardson

    That’s right. A joke is, by nature, non-consensual. It follows that all jokes are about non-consensual acts and, further, all jokes are about rape.

    Make a joke about a monkey eating a burger, that’s non-consensual. “A priest, a rabbi and a hooker walk into a bar…” NON-CONSENSUAL.

    “Knock knock, who’s there?”

    Hey! Nobody got my permission to answer that fucking door! RAAAAAAPE.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Yeah, I’ve learned something too, Les.

    Those who claim to stand up for “the people,” at least here at this site, generally lack understanding of what makes the people tick. We’re all litmus tastes of sexism or racism, depending on what we laugh at or enjoy in our spare time. We’re all rapists and racists, clawing each other eyes out and just waiting for something better to come along because we aren’t as “enlightened” as our Greater Others.

    Bull-fucking-shit.

  • Jordan Richardson

    *tests, not tastes

    Blurg.

  • Les Slater

    Jordan, it is you that trivializes rape by lowering it to such as any knock knock type joke.

    BTW, my spell check has no sense of humor, it suggested that I delete the second knock.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I didn’t accuse you of trivializing rape, Les. I accused you of not understanding a joke.

    I will say this, though: a knock-knock joke is worse than rape.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “The Letterman joke itself placed placed the two together, neither consented to it. By simple inspection it is non-consensual.”

    What? So according to you just by being in a joke about consensual sex without having given permission to be used in the joke is the equivalent of rape? That’s some bizarre mix of nonsensical reasoning and a sad desperation to not admit being wrong.

    So not only do you trivialize murder in your admission of enjoying jokes about it but you trivialize rape as well. Looks like I learned something too.

  • Ruvy

    Since, sex, murder and moral degradation has made its smelly way into this thread, it might be worth-while to take a look at a Jewish view of the End of Days – since sex, murder and moral degradation are liberally sprinkled throughout the condemnations and comments to them in this piece. Read it through thoroughly before coming up with the snide bullshit remarks. I would hate to feel I was tossing pearls before swine… There might be something for you all to learn – especially the Obama-messiah worshipers on this thread.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    1660s, joque, “a jest, something done to excite laughter,” from L. jocus “joke, sport, pastime,” from PIE base *yek- “to speak” (cf. Bret. iez “language,” O.H.G. jehan “to say,” Ger. Beichte “confession”). Originally a colloquial or slang word. Related: Joked; joking. Meaning “something not to be taken seriously” is 1791. Practical joke “trick played on someone for the sake of a laugh at his expense” is from 1804.

    From Online Etymology Dictionary.

    Now, what’s the relation to comedy?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    go see if the army will take you.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m tired of your Jewish view…let me remind you that Stalin killed more souls than Hitler…why don’t we lament for them, and Native Americans, Kurds, Vietnamese, and on and on and on…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This ego egocentricity of yours reminds me of my daughter when she was thirteen.

    :0nuf said…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Those who claim to stand up for “the people,” at least here at this site, generally lack understanding of what makes the people tick.

    So what makes people tick, Jordan. I’ve been around more in my lifetime than you will in three, but I’m always eager to learn.

    So do tell! Secrets like that should be shared among friends.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Those who claim to stand up for “the people,” at least here at this site, generally lack understanding of what makes the people tick.

    Jordan, Who are those?

    :) You could be much more direct when addressing people if you would type their names.

  • Jordan Richardson

    So what makes people tick, Jordan.

    I don’t claim to know, Roger. Never did.

    I’ve been around more in my lifetime than you will in three, but I’m always eager to learn.

    And yet your social skills leave so much to be desired.

    Incidentally, how would you know you’ve “been around” more people than I have? How would you get the foggiest idea as to my social life?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jeannie, I assure you that if I meant to be direct I would have been.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I’m tired of your Jewish view

    What a foul thing to say.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Now, what’s the relation to comedy?

    What’s the relation to comedy in hauling out the Online Etymology Dictionary? None whatsoever.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    1 )You should know, Jordan, what makes people tick because you’re using it to impinge on another person’s character – so don’t be weaseling out of this so quickly. Either own us to the fact that you’ve misspoken or stick by your guns.

    2)And how would you know about my social skills, Jordan?

    Interestingly, it is you who seem to exhibit a rudimentary lack of them. In a manner of speaking you diminished Les for no other reason that he disagreed with you. You’ve virtually implied he’s a naive and stupid man – what a thing to say of a grown person you don’t even know. You’re doing that quite often Jordan, behaving like an irate child. And don’t you tell me know we’re the same in this respect. I pick my fights with the likes of you, El Bicho and other stuffy shirts around here who either think their shit doesn’t stink or aren’t confident enough to admit it. You’re just being mean and childish, Jordan, as well as insecure. There is a world of difference.

    3) The entry from etymological dictionary wasn’t posted for any relation to comedy. It was posted for one and one reason only – to make you think. I realize it was in vain.

    And forgive me for breaking things down for you point by point. It’s the surest way to make sure you’ll get it.

    Yes, Jordan, my sarcasm is fully intended. As far as I’m concerned, you deserve no better.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    Jordan’s idea is that because a person is idealistic, they tend to be immature and stupid. He meant Les more or less directly, but it’s an open-ended class as far as Jordan is concerned – he fancies himself to be such a cool customer.

    And Jeannie, by the way. Was your remark to Ruvy antisemitic? The inquiring minds want to know.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I would point out that Jordan, El B and myself probably agree with Cindy,Les and Roger, at least in general terms, on 95% of the big issues in news and politics. We’re all left of center, and we have little affection for dumb right-wing rhetoric.

    Yet we spend a huge proportion of our time on here in extended arguments about small issues, like an old David Letterman joke, or who has worse manners.

    Each of us has probably been guilty of ill-mannered spouting off here on the Interwebs.

    But could we concentrate on our common antagonists? Meaning the ugly anti-poor, racism-denying, fact-averse libertarians and conservatives, both here on Blogcritics and out in the world saying asinine, destructive, dangerous things?

    We’d accomplish more.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I know it was snark, Jordan but, I’m tired of the his little diatribe every time I post anything about Obama.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    No, Roger! absolutely not…my comment was only for Ruvy :(

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    I thought so, Jeannie. I don’t think it was such a preposterous remark considering Rivy’s diatribes. What’s more preposterous is Jordan taking it upon himself to repremand you El Bicho’s style. Who does he think he is, prince charming.

    And as far as H goes, it’s commendable of him to act as a peacemaker but I ain’t letting this one go. Human decency is far more important to me than one’s political colors.

    That’s why I have a far greater respect for Archie, another frequent target of Jordan’s and El Bicho’s attacks, than for Jordan et al for all their verbal sophistry. Whatever Archie’s faults, you know he’s got integrity, a quality apparently in short supply on the part of his attackers. Yet, they’re not attacking Archie’s ideas but his very person, and that’s detestable.

    Alan Kurtz was right in that for some people on the net, scoring points and one-upmaship is the only thing that matters.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Zing,

    let me break this down for you:

    cindy: “is it okay to consider girls fair game a soon as some arbitrary law says it’s okay?”

    jesus. and this started as a baseball joke. take the step… yeah, there you go…

    I’ll put it in different words:

    The joke wasn’t about the 14 year old. As far as I can see, everywhere I read if the joke had been about the 14 year old, it would have been considered vile. Because it is about an 18 year old, it is considered appropriate? What does that make an 18 year old, fair game for being called a slut by adult males?

    I didn’t take any step. What I am asking is for critical examination by people as to why they would oppose saying the same thing about a 14 year old teenage girl that somehow becomes appropriate when a girl reaches 18.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    296 – Jordan Richardson

    You brought up Letterman’s age, specifically. I presume this was done for a reason.

    And you missed that reason? I don’t think you did. I made it clear twice, you are too smart to have missed the point about how adults should treat children. Let’s put the actors all into your family and see how it flies. Your 62 year old father makes the same crack about your 18 year old daughter, who is his granddaughter. Will that get a laugh at your dinner table?

    I don’t think adults should treat other people’s children differently than they would treat there own. It’s that simple. That liberals think it’s okay and excuse it as free speech doesn’t make it okay.

    “That adults should treat youngsters with love and respect–that’s ageism?” -me

    Absolutely not. That’s not even remotely close to what this is about, though.

    See above. Yes, that is exactly what it is about. It is inappropriate for adults to imply young girls are sluts. That’s not loving, nor is it respectful. It’s the opposite of both those things. It is not an appropriate response to her pregnancy, it is not an appropriate response to her position on abstinence. It is not appropriate because her parent is using her for a political prop. It is not appropriate. And if you think her parent is using her, you might be inclined to have some empathy for her as a victim of that. If she were your niece, you might feel she was being used. You might use opportunities to reach out to her. Or, I guess you might make slut jokes about her. That’s certainly another choice.

    Fair game in terms of what, specifically? A joke? Yes.

    Fair game as far as it being acceptable to imply they are a slut.

    What about Alex Rodriguez? Was he, too, raped by Letterman’s joke?

    If he’s able to consider the implications, from some other pov than what our culture define as acceptable for men, I would expect him to be offended. I don’t know anything about him.

    I’ll BBL to reply to your other comment.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Re Alex Rodriguez. On the other hand if he doesn’t mind being a passive participant in such a joke, then he’s just part of the fraternity that excuses misogyny.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Yet, they’re not attacking Archie’s ideas but his very person”

    Right, because Arch’s comments are never full of invective and insults. It’s odd considering all your philosophical prattling about language that you are unable to see that it’s his mode of expression that’s being attacked.

  • http://taleitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Well, that’s Archie’s way of talking and he’s getting better. He’s got an anger problem and has got to work on it. Still, it’s only his language, and I don’t think it’s so damn difficult to overlook it.

    But Arch is not full of hatred, and you know it.

  • Les Slater

    In general I endorse Cindy’s 229 – 30.

    I want to add a little on the hypocrisy issue. I grew up in the same church as Sarah Palin, Assemblies of God (Pentecostal). We didn’t have an abstinence campaign back then, at least not as such. But we knew the line, no sex until married, and then only to glorify the Lord and produce Christian children to continue God’s work.

    We all knew, or at least most, that some of us were ‘doing it’. As friends we knew who. We did not condemn them. In general we would never admit this to our parents. In public, as good Christians, we would spout the party line. The pressure was enormous. We had no parental, adult, church or societal support. Sometimes we might find a hip uncle, aunt, cousin or older sibling to talk to. Even these had to strictly private. Mostly we were on our own. Yes, there was a lot of hypocrisy here, but not of our making.

    No doubt there are modern variants of this. Young people are neither making nor in control of the situation. To hold them up to ridicule says more about the individual and society doing the ridicule.

  • Ruvy

    I’m tired of your Jewish view…let me remind you that Stalin killed more souls than Hitler…why don’t we lament for them, and Native Americans, Kurds, Vietnamese, and on and on and on…

    Indeed, Jeannie, why don’t you? SINCE YOU AMERICANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF A LOT OF THE KURDS, NATIVE AMERICANS, VIETNAMESE, AND ON AND ON AND ON….

    The piece I posted had nothing to do with the Nazi murder of Jews in WWII. Period. It had to do with the Wahhabi taking the place of you Christians as the lead persecutors and killers of Jews.

    But where you were concerned, I was indeed tossing pearls before swine. You snuffled out your ignorance-filled sarcasm like a good worshiper of Obama would.

    My conservative friends in the States tell me that their new symbol for America (replacing the eagle) is a skunk – half white, half black, and whatever he does, it stinks.

    Now you what have to complain about, Jeannie. Go to it!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Sorry, I was so abrupt with you , Ruvy, I certainly didn’t want to slur an entire nation.

    :O There, now I posted this apology three times…hope you will accept.

  • Ruvy

    Jeannie, the best apology you can make is to actually read the piece I posted and attempt to understand it. I don’t expect you to agree with it at all. I myself do not agree with all of it. But try to understand its perspective….

    I would indeed appreciate it if you made that effort.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy, I’ll read what you posted , but I would also like to point out that I had not read this comment #334 of yours before posting #335.

    Let’s talk about your attitude towards me.

    But where you were concerned, I was indeed tossing pearls before swine. You snuffled out your ignorance-filled sarcasm like a good worshiper of Obama would?

    This is actually tame compared to most of your insults. The point is, you clearly have never looked at my perspective.

    :) I’ll get back to you after I’ve read that link, OK Ruvy?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    278 – Jordan Richardson
    Aug 01, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    But Cindy, you’re leaving out the role that humour AND those video games (films too) in our society. It’s not the art or products or objects themselves that create the damage; it’s the role we assign them.

    You are leaving out the messages that media and all communication tells children about how and what they should be, what they should look like, what other people should look like, how to achieve status, how they should treat others, what makes them worthwhile. It’s the messages they get from films, and commercials, and games, reinforced by the pressure of the people in the culture to conform that tell them what is acceptable and what is not. We learn how women should be and how men should be and what it is to be these roles.

    Since the advent of TV, these things are more and more determined by corporations who wish to sell into markets. So, they create markets by creating and guiding desires. They influence what it means to be a man or a woman. We are generally taught this is all ‘natural’. That teaching is in service to those who wish to make money. That liberals have decided to defend this mess as some sort of freedom–likely in a reaction against the alternative approach provided by the religious right–is what is making the world what it is. We get the world we have–the crazy world–by doing what we are now doing. In order to change the crazy workld, we need to question what we are now doing. The things we now accept as normal and okay.

    I’m always wary about blanket criticisms because I think they’re cop-outs. It’s a way to point to some thing as being the Great Evil when the problem extends far beyond things. The inevitable human solution is, of course, to great rid of the thing.

    If slavery is evil, then we need to stop excusing it, before things can change, don’t we? If racism is evil, then we need to question ourselves about whether racist jokes are okay, don’t we? Doesn’t the same go for misogynist jokes?

    And to address another point you made about racist jokes–there are jokes about race and there are racist jokes. I think you can probably think of jokes from either category. I think you know the difference between them.

    I contend that we live in a patriarchy. The things I address, that you say are okay–to me they are evidence of liberal male acceptance and compliance with that patriarchal conditioning.

    I sympathize with the view that the world is crazy because it is. It always has been. That is both the most exciting and most terrifying aspect of life. And if I can’t have a few laughs along the way or beat up a pixelated hooker, I don’t want to live.

    The world is crazy because of what we take for granted. That means, in large part, what liberals take for granted.

    Here are some videos that may illuminate the points I am making. I am not the first nor the only one to see what I see. This page has a good selection on media in culture and how it promotes misogyny, consumerism, violence, etc. If people want to murder prostitutes in video games, that is their choice. I would like them to consider why they would want to. I think that was not originally their free choice. I recommend men see Generation M, Tough Guise, and The Price of Pleasure.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    333 – Mary Louise Pratt, in her piece, The Arts of the Contact Zone discussed the marginalized discourse where relationships of unequal power occur. That is a perfect example of that kind of discourse. We would not hear the child’s pov because it is suppressed by the dominators–in this case the adults.

    So, you have brought to light a marginalized pov–the child’s side of the story. We need to hear those experiences to make new sense of events and our interpretations of them.

    And I agree with you, Les, Young people are neither making nor in control of the situation. To hold them up to ridicule says more about the individual and society doing the ridicule.

  • Charlotte Thompson

    Arizona should sue the US. Article 4 section 4 of the Constitution states that the government is required to protect the states from any foreign invasion. Drug dealers have invaded Arizona. Atleast 30 miles inside.