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FBI Warns that Americans Are Now a Threat to America

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Following the pattern of other provocative statements about potential domestic terrorist threats from the Obama Justice Department, the Federal Bureau of Investigation has issued a statement exposing the threat of “hundreds of thousands” of “sovereign citizens” who can turn violent “at the drop of a hat” during encounters with the police.

Citing three specific cases in three years and a trend of an increase in arrests of believers in individual sovereignty from 10 to 18 cases per year, mostly for non-violent crimes, the FBI declared law enforcement to be “inundated” with threats.

This may be the most exaggerated and offensive example of specious fearmongering to come out of an administration which has been promoting irrational fear of generally harmless groups of citizens for three years. The FBI is taking aim at a huge body of citizens who are increasingly angry about government abuse of power and irresponsibility and attempting to turn them into a movement of dangerous potential terrorists.

These dangerous “extremists” hold such horrific views as “outrage at tax collection,” defying environmental regulations and believing that “the United States went bankrupt by going off the gold standard.” The FBI is identifying them as “sovereign citizens” and is defining them as a members of a movement, though they provide no evidence of organized or coordinated activity beyond just being angry with the government, a characteristic shared by about half the nation’s population.

I would say that the concerns over this threat were excessive, but that’s giving the FBI too much credit. Ridiculous is a more appropriate description. Statistically a three year increase from 10 to 18 cases of mostly non violent crimes associated with anti-government activists isn’t a crimewave. It’s not even large enough to qualify as a validly quantifiable trend. Given the hundreds of thousands of crimes committed yearly it’s far below the margin of error for crime statistics.

The FBI claims that they are “being inundated right now with requests for training from state and local law enforcement on sovereign-related matters.” This supposed demand for a response to a nonexistent threat probably would not be there at all had the FBI not been promoting the idea that average citizens are potential domestic terrorists for years. The FBI is creating bogeymen to justify their own actions and to distract from the government’s increasingly callous disregard for the rights of citizens.

The kinds of concerns which the FBI is using to identify these potentially dangerous citizens are not the hallmarks of dangerous extremism. They are mostly reasonable concerns over the current state of our government held by tens of millions of fairly ordinary citizens who have legitimate reasons to be dissatisfied with government. They are also the same kinds of extreme views which were held by our founding fathers.

The one genuine, unifying characteristic of all of these “extremists” is that they are not happy with a government which is spending beyond its means, taxing beyond our ability to pay and which encroaches more and more on our constitutionally guaranteed rights every day. In their statement the FBI is not actually identifying a real threat to public safety or to citizens, they are sending a warning that public expression of justifiable anger at the government can get you labelled a dangerous criminal or even a terrorist.

This is a tactic intended purely and simply to intimidate and silence the public. They are sending the message that protest is a crime and speaking out against government will not be tolerated. As they did under Hoover, the FBI is categorizing people and making lists and if you don’t watch your step they’ll put you in a database and take away your rights.

The implications of this statement from the FBI are particularly ominous in the wake of efforts in the National Defense Appropriation Act, the PATRIOT Act and the pending Enemy Expatriation Act to empower the government to take away the most fundamental rights of citizens.

The goal may be to intimidate critics of government, but they are also showing us why we so desperately need to take our government back before these threats of abuse of power turn into full-fledged tyranny.

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About Dave Nalle

Dave Nalle is Executive Director of the Texas Liberty Foundation, Chairman of the Center for Foreign and Defense Policy, South Central Regional Director for the Republican Liberty Caucus and an advisory board member at the Coalition to Reduce Spending. He was Texas State Director for the Gary Johnson Presidential campaign, an adviser to the Ted Cruz senatorial campaign, Communications Director for the Travis County Republican Party and National Chairman of the Republican Liberty Caucus. He has also consulted on many political campaigns, specializing in messaging. Before focusing on political activism, he owned or was a partner in several businesses in the publishing industry and taught college-level history for 20 years.
  • cameowalkin

    The article was excellent. The comments were disheartening. How is it no one sees the UN is putting out PR through the FBI, to condition the public to accept that their own peaceful countrymen are terrorists that need killing; so that when they signal for the genocide to begin in all the cities and big towns, legitimized by “devising necessary interpretations of existing laws, or creating new ones like the Patriot Act, to deal with the problems”, they will have brainwashed the public to calmly accept the news, walk over the bodies, and take their place in the food lines. So these kinds of reports from the FBI are really about anesthetizing people’s morality and critical thinking through repeating outrageous lies, over and over, just like Hitler’s Nazis did.

  • Vote for Ron Paul and help eliminate the Number One threat to liberty in this country – the paragraph!

  • American for Liberty

    The power, authority, and budget of these agencies has always been proportionate to whatever threat, real or imagined, that it must rise to face. The FBI has always been jealous of the massive power and resources enjoyed by the CIA, because foreign threats present superior justification to exercise this kind of authority. This is how and why we saw Hoover gain so much influence during the communist threat. However, the FBI’s jurisdiction is internal, not external. Was it Hoover who defeated communism? Was it McCarthy? The answer is no, but McCarthyism was a massive boon to the agency. A time which many in the agency would benefit to see the return of.. and while years ago that might have seemed unimaginable, most would agree that does not seem such a far fetched policy outcome considering the rhetoric that has already been so effectively introduced under the Bush administration to promote our foreign entanglements. And while progressivism in the justice system has had many positive outcomes, as indeed progressivism in many other sectors has, people by and large fail to consult the history books for the ultimate outcomes which inevitably follow the widespread acceptance of these policies. It’s known as fascism, and we the people have seen it before. Turning again to the history books, it is clear that opposing taxation and authoritarian control was actually the basis for the nation the agency serves to protect! However, for some time now the agency has gotten a pass on it’s attempts to try its hand in domestic politics, in part because of its historical effectiveness in achieving these types of outcomes. It was called upon to develop creative strategies to suppress anti-war sentiments surrounding the Vietnam war, as well as to suppress the civil rights movement of the 1960’s. It was allowed to exercise enormous authority to achieve those ends, resulting in a good deal of poor publicity and backlash. Arguments can be made that technological advancement, globalization, or advancing complexities in political or economic systems have changed the rules of the game, and should require some type of necessary authoritarian mandate to counterbalance. This is the dangerous rhetoric of the fascist, and a road to tyranny. However clearly the FBI is tracking this and there is indeed a movement that has already absorbed most of the young people in this country, as well as a whole spectrum of others. They and everyone else can and should take note of it. It includes people who are concerned with the economy and the massive redistributions of wealth that have occured, people concerned with inflation and the value in their savings accounts, people concerned with continuing decades long conflicts which we initiated that have no tangible benefits to the men, women, and taxpayers who pay the burden. And therefore, we the people can and should exercise our right to call for restraint in our government. And while this might prove inconvenient for those currently in office, if you examine the issue philosophically you will find it incontrovertibly in the American spirit. And most pragmatically, if you examine the issue statistically you will see that change is inevitably on the horizon. While this libertarian movement currently represents only about a 10% minority of voters, we see these philosophies being embraced nationwide by an overwhelming majority of young voters. Efforts to censor and suppress these voices have only galvanized them into a national political movement. A government which fears accountability and those calling for it is certainly undemocratic, and is certainly un-American. We are a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Not the politicans. Not the bankers and Federal Reserve shareholders. Not the corporations. Not the military-industrial complex. Not the special interests. The voices of the people must be heard, and as inconvenient as it may be, they must be addressed democratically. Any man, regardless of the office he holds, or the agency he works for, should face censure for forgetting these basic tenets of our nation. The lack of accountability in government is a popular topic in Washington during election years, but only one man has stood up for these principles on a consistent basis. I urge you all to educate yourselves on these issues, turn off your television sets and get into the habit of forming your own opinions on government affairs. I urge you all to vote for Texas Congressman Ron Paul in the upcoming 2012 Republican primaries.

  • Go to JohnnyPartain.com for an example of how we come to this. I had my businesses, bank accounts, and house seized by the government after I fired a person who went into bankruptcy with a large international bank aiding him to commit bankruptcy fraud (the president of the bank was his neighbor). PEOPLE DIED AS A DIRECT RESULT. I made complaints to the FBI, Department of Justice, and 5th Circuit regarding the judge’s lack of jurisdiction and RICO with the bank and bankruptcee. I showed money laundering between the bank and the Republican party. A federal judge withdrew on my showing, but then I was illegally incarcerated in a federal detention center for 3 months until I sued out a habeas corpus. Now habeas corpus protection is GONE. I had another $95,000 dollars seized from me as a criminal sanction for getting out of federal detention, but I do not have a criminal record and no complaints or indictments agaiinst me…YET. Then federal judges conspired with each other to obstruct justice in other pending civil cases. I went to my Congressman who promised help, but he’s now in bankruptcy under the same crooked judges. The judges say they are immune and the FBI says they are required to protect them. Humm, what a citizen to do. Now I’m running for congress to fix this beast from the inside out. I shouldn’t have to do this and I wont be pleasant.

  • Corey

    Glenn probably IS a government agent! Gotta get out there and thwart the public’s mind that the government is OUT OF CONTROL. It certainly is!

  • It remains to be seen whether Wikileaks, Anonymous and citizen movements such as Occupy or the Arab Spring can actually resist the power that comes from the barrel of a gun. So far the jury is still out on that one.

  • @ #90: Roger, zingzing has more clarity than almost anyone else at BC – of both thought and expression. The same cannot be said for you, I’m afraid.

    @ #91: Chris, technology, even advanced technology, can be used by anyone, for good or evil. While it is true that the average citizen does not have the same scale of access to it as “The Man” does, he/she can still use it very effectively. Think, for example, of Wikileaks or Anonymous. Or the use of social networks by the Arab Spring protestors.

  • zingzing

    alright, well, i don’t quite know what point you’re really trying to make, or why you think it worth making so emphatically. seems a rather pointless point.

    but you’re pissed at me for saying that the catholic church is wrong for trying to restrict the choices available to their employees because choice needs no justification… and therefore i should just shut up, if i understand you correctly. (not that i’m sure of that in the least.)

    i just think i’ll have to nod and shrug my shoulders at you on that one.

  • Shoot, zing. How could you miss that’s precisely what you were doing. It’s only on that account and no other that i had a problem with what your were saying.

    Choice needs no justification, period.

  • zingzing

    jesus, roger. i have no idea how i was “trying to justify choice in terms of health concerns,” because i really don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. so far as i can tell, it’s meaningless blather. do you even know what you’re trying to say?

    “And I don’t care how many women you dated, on the pill or not.”

    oh, for fuck’s sake. because i know something about birth control, you said i must be “girlish.” (and you tell me to grow up?) so i told you how i got to know what i know about birth control. it’s probably the same way many men find out most of what they know about birth control.

  • Zing, if there’s one thing I do is I don’t mince words. I’m not the girlish type you may be. Your recent equivocation on the other thread, trying to justify choice in terms of health concerns, speaks volumes. So don’t you tell me to look at the mirror. It is you who need to do the all the looking, good looking, I might add, for what you’re about to find right now is but a picture of Dorian.

    I wish you luck, though, since it’s never too late. You’ve got to get over first your delinquent state of mind and ways.

    It’s about to grow up, zing, and join the human race. The time for being a dilettante is over.

    And I don’t care how many women you dated, on the pill or not. You’re still acting and thinking like a juvenile.

  • El B, it isn’t a matter of reporting the movement of “large” amounts (actually it was $10 grand), it is a systematic process of reporting anything “suspicious”, with quotas, fines for not achieving quotas and a legal requirement to keep such reporting secret.

  • zingzing

    roger, you best look in the mirror when you say that. (clear enough?)

  • The banks have long been required to report the deposit/transfer/withdrawal of certain large amounts

  • zingzing

    doc’s got some of my point down. it’s not just crying “wolf.” it’s screaming bloody murder. it’s presenting yourself as a threat then wondering why you’re considered a threat. obviously, there comes a point when the authorities stop considering this shit the “rambling of nutcases” and they start using it against us.

    do they have reason to use it against us? sure looks like it to someone who’d like to find the reason. even if most of it is just frothy rhetoric, this list suggests they aren’t seeing it that way.

  • Doc, there is no denying that there has been a huge increase in the number of and the power of security forces in the USA.

    At the same time, the USA has been increasing its financial control over its citizens and even made it a requirement for bank staff, lawyers and accountants to report “suspicious” activity (the former have even been given targets and fines for failing to achieve them), so the US has created its own informant network.

    All this in the name of security and keeping the people safe.

    It’s not like the USA previously had an excessively tolerant or relaxed attitude to these things but things have now gone way too far.

    I don’t agree with your suggestion that those who would resist have anything like the “sophisticated and technologically advanced set of tools” available to the state, to say nothing of its manpower and weaponry.

  • Everyone needs an interpreter, and zing here is no exception. In fact, he seems to need it more than most; for some unfathomable reason, he just can’t seem to express himself clearly and to the point.

    Thank God to interpreters and all sorts of do-gooders.

  • I see what zing is getting at here.

    Not a generation goes by without some segment of the population declaring that society/the government/the system/whatever is broken and/or morally, ethically and spiritually bankrupt and needs to be replaced post-haste.

    Usually, this is confirmation bias: our basic human need for the life and times we’re living in to have some greater significance. Sometimes, however, the doomsayers do have a point. No-one in their right mind, for example, would argue that right now Americans enjoy a greater degree of personal and political freedom than they ever have.

    The big worry, right now, is that those who would seek to continue restricting and constricting those freedoms have a far more sophisticated and technologically advanced set of tools at their disposal than ever before.

    Then again, so do those who would resist.

    The problem is that “Wolf!” has been cried so often before that it’s extremely difficult to distinguish the true threats from baseless paranoia; and more often than not the warnings sound like the ramblings of nutcases (and usually are). This, of course, suits the Establishment just fine.

  • zingzing

    the last bit is right. it’s an equal and opposite reaction kind of thing. the first bit about “people shouldn’t be concerned or about or objecting” isn’t quite my point. it’s that the hyperviolent and paranoid reactions do no good. if one were to use reasoned and measured rhetoric instead of proclaiming the end of days and violent revolution, it would be far more successful. there’s no need to go about proving the fbi, etc, correct. prove them wrong.

  • If I am understanding you correctly you appear to be claiming that people shouldn’t be concerned about or objecting to the hysterical, paranoid and entirely unnecessary increases in the domestic US security services as it provokes them into increasing their efforts?

  • zingzing

    chris, that would be an outrage against my name, and the only way we could settle this is rocket launchers at elementary school.

    or you could explain what’s backwards about it, instead of just saying it is.

  • zingzing, as you have things backwards, can I call you gnizgniz until you recover?

  • Of course I realize what I’m doing, but I’m compelled to speak as I see it.

  • I know, the “useful idiot” phrase. But the way I look at it, there is no way but to escalate when you’re contesting power. It’s never going to relinquish its dominance on its own accord.

  • Zingzing

    The rest of these yahoos don’t seem to realize that they’re creating the logic behind the increasing power they think they’re fighting against. Useful idiots, as ruvy used to say.

  • I’m not pushing for any violent overthrow. History has its own way of righting things, and I’m quite willing to let it write its course. All I’m pushing for is greater awareness.

  • It’s not a matter of my wanting to make it so. It is going to happen because there are limits to what people will take. Then we’ll all see the true nature of the beast.

  • Zingzing

    So you want to push them. At least you realize what you’re doing, I guess.

  • When push will come to shove, of course. All powers behave exactly the same whenever they’re threatened.

  • I don’t go back to #33 or whatever. My point is that America and what it represents at present is not worth protecting.

  • Zingzing

    Do you believe that the us gov’t is as despotic as that of Egypt or Syria? Do you want to make it so?

  • Zingzing

    No, Roger, you miss the point… Look at comments 33-35. I know those are just some gleefully anonymous whack jobs, but if they are at all indicative of a subset of American attitudes towards the gov’t then the FBI is at least somewhat right. Are there Americans that are a threat to America? Of course there are. Some people might take ideas such as those displayed in those comments and back them up with guns and bombs. It’s happened before.

  • So am I, but I’m beholden to another devil.

    You can make a similar case for the pre-Mubarak regime. It’s only with the protests that the government’s violence became apparent. Same with Syria.

    The government already has those powers, always had, and I’m not referring to what’s on the books.

    Well, one strategy may well be to try to test it, to see how far is it willing to go.

    Of course, that’s the revolutionary’s standpoint.

  • Zingzing

    Look, I’m playing devil’s advocate to a degree here, so let’s look at a real world example instead of just a bunch of conspiracy wielding yahoos on the Internet…

    The hacker group anonymous… are they doing good work, or are they simply opening up the door to their own arrest and the enlargement of law enforcement on Internet-related shenanigans? I’m a bit on the fence about that. But the more brazen they become, the more the gov’t is going to come down on them and the rest of us because of what they do. And once the gov’t has those powers, it’s not going to let them go.

  • @71

    So the solution is to be putting up with incrementalism and take it in the butt?

    It goes without saying that sleeping citizenry will not wake up the sleeping giant. Is that the course of action you recommend?

  • Zingzing

    “taking the attitude that the government hasn’t knocked on your door (yet) is simply reckless and naive.”

    that wasn’t the damn point. For fuck’s sake. The point is that they’re creating each other. The idiots out there shouting “the FBI wants to disappear me, but they’d better watch out because I’ve got my guns and I’ll shoot them all if they dare try to step on ma property” wonder why the FBI releases such a list? Come on. You fucking signed your name to that list.

    Everyone’s against massive increases in police and FBI power. I’m just sick of watching the blowhards give that power to them with stupid broish nonsense about their guns and blowing off heads and shit. It’s like walking up to a beat cop and saying “I’m going to shoot you in the face if you try to arrest me,” and then wearing a stupid look on your face in the back of the patrol car. Grow the fuck up.

  • Igor

    IMO the FBI is militarizing local police forces (using the hidden funds in the FBI’s black budget) to prepare municipal police for a dire future that they see when American citizens, driven by increasingly adverse economics and more oppressive control by citizenized corporations, start to openly revolt, and have to be put down as in Egypt and Bahrain, etc.

    Those future municipal police will be directly commanded from FBI headquarters, of course, a perquisite quid pro quo of the history of funding from their black funds. Local cops are, even now, compiling a record of FBI privileges in order to get in good with the GMen.

  • Zingzing

    way to quote out of context and miss the point, troll. Paranoia breeds paranoia on both sides.

  • troll

    If everyone backed off on their rhetoric, the gov’t might not be out to get you. The gov’t, so far, hasn’t knocked on my door. Have they knocked on yours? Maybe you shouldn’t invite this shit.


    get thee behind me liberal Satan

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cannonshop –

    this nation survived the Civil Rights era and came out of it stronger-without deploying Personnel Carriers and heavy weapons on shaky justifications against its own citizens

    Oh? Does the song “Four Dead in Ohio” ring a bell? Or unleashing dogs on protesters down South? Or the lynching of Medgar Evers? All these were either done by the government or done with the knowledge of the local government.

    Yes, our government has more direct power than it should, and yes, our government does abuse its powers…but with the exception of the public approval of outright torture, has our government done anything recently that it has not done in the past to a much more egregious extent?


    While it is right to fight to preserve the rights granted us in the Constitution, it is WRONG to be so afraid of our government that we begin to view its every movement as a threat. There’s no need to be so afraid, much less spreading the fear around willy-nilly just ’cause your guys aren’t the ones in charge.

  • I think we SHOULD be against massive increase in police and FBI power in the USA.

    Cannonshop is completely right in my opinion and to be taking the attitude that the government hasn’t knocked on your door (yet) is simply reckless and naive.

  • Zingzing

    And when you say such things, cannonshop, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t, do you wonder why the us gov’t thinks you might be against them? when a gov’t agency is charged with finding threats against the us gov’t, that’s their job. If you provide them leads, and they pick up on it, well…

    Should they be doing this? I dunno. But if they are, and you think it’s ok to feed into it, you’re just the other half of the equation. If everyone backed off on their rhetoric, the gov’t might not be out to get you. The gov’t, so far, hasn’t knocked on my door. Have they knocked on yours? Maybe you shouldn’t invite this shit.

    Male it easier for the rest of us, cannonshop. Don’t stop talking, but don’t invent your nightmares either. It’s your creation at this point.

  • Cannonshop

    #63 Glenn, the only difference between a politically-motivated homicidal maniac like McVeigh, and a politically motivated homicidal maniac with a badge, is where they get their government cheque, and the nominal ability to control the homicidal maniac behaviour of the second one without killing him.

    Here’s my problem with your rose-tinted scenario in a nutshell, Glenn-I don’t tend to trust people upon whom the law does not apply with the same force it applies to me.

    With the FBI, it’s been amply demonstrated that the laws only apply when and where it is convenient to THEM.

    Prior to 9/11, we were already sliding down this slope-it accellerated with the dropping of the towers, but it was already in the works, Glenn-Federal agents had, in full public view, already gotten away with actions that would’ve put their predecessors ten years prior in front of a jury-as Defendants, and would have, even under Carter or Ford, resulted in the firing of people like Larry Potts, Lon Horiuchi, etc. for misconduct.

    We have come to a point where MILITARY PERSONNEL IN A WAR ZONE are held to a higher standard of conduct, than PEACE OFFICERS AT HOME are.

    I know, you don’t have a problem with that, but I Do- Nations militarize to go to war, so when the POLICE are militarized, who do you THINK they’re going to war against? How can you sit there and make excuses for it, YOU SERVED, remember?

    The whole thrust of the FBI’s “Sovereign citizens” snow-job, is political, this nation survived the Civil Rights era and came out of it stronger-without deploying Personnel Carriers and heavy weapons on shaky justifications against its own citizens. Could you IMAGINE what a Eugene McCarthy could do-or a Nixon, with things like PATRIOT and NDAA on the books?

    Or (here’s a REAL nightmare) someone like David Duke in the White House with those resources?

    YOU want to see this as Party-line, “us and them” where your “Us” has these neato tools-but those tools will be there when your friends are gone-can you trust them NOT to fall into the hands of abusive, ruthless lunatics?

    ’cause I can’t.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cannonshop –

    Y’all need a healthy dose of perspective.

    Yes, McVeigh’s pretext was Waco – but what you don’t realize is that if it wasn’t that, then he’d have found a different pretext. All he wanted was an excuse – any excuse – to commit his crime.

    And that’s what I don’t think y’all are getting – the larger a nation, the greater the likelihood that epic charlie-foxes like Waco will happen. The larger the nation, the greater the number of people (in public or private sectors) who take the opportunity to screw it up for a whole lot of innocent people.

    Also, you should be aware that the period of time wherein Americans really enjoyed freedom from things like the Patriot Act and the NDAA…was between the Civil Rights struggle and 9/11. Before then we had McCarthyism, and before that were the Japanese-American internment camps and the rabid America-uber-alles patriotism during WWI that was far beyond the crimes allowed by the Patriot Act (most of which has been allowed to expire, btw).

    Y’all need to stop buying into the “fear, fear the government” tripe – ours really ain’t half so bad as y’all seem to think.

  • Cannonshop

    #61 damn, you DO see the danger, I misjudged you, Igor. I apologize deeply and sincerely for that.

  • Igor

    IMO Dave Nalles statement in the article is correct:

    “The FBI’s concern over “Sovereign Citizens” seems designed more to intimidate the public than to address a real threat.”

    And the intimidation doesn’t work, because citizens see their rights of assembly threatened by that intimidation. Thus, we end with a confrontation between armed aggressive enforcement officers and unarmed crowds of protestors and there will be an eruption and gun violence. And that may not even require a professional agent provocateur to ignite.

    Modern police method seems to teach that an officer must enter the scene with strong but unmistakable aggression and dominate the scene. Control seems to be the key. IMO that’s the theory. But all too often it fails simply because the officer becomes infected with his own belligerence and when it produces an untoward result he feels his bluff is called and moves on to actual violence.

    IMO that’s a microcosm of what has become too common in US foreign policy where we seek to move in and dominate, say, Afghanistan, but the nuances and subtleties end with death and ‘collateral’ damage that damns us in the eyes of those we sought as allies.

  • Cannonshop

    The nightmare of policies like Nalle’s talking about supported by the PATRIOT act and NDAA, for the left it’s Nehemiah Scudder.
    For the right, it’s an American version of Joe Stalin.

    For people like Nalle or me, it’s either one.

  • Cannonshop

    Igor, I do find it somewhat amusing that when you don’t have something of substance (or even interest) to add to a discussion, you haul off with the insults and try to start a fight.

    Esp. when “hey, you’re wrong about what I believe in…” would work a lot better.

    AS for my comment about rule of natural consequences, I can probably haul out enough examples to make a series of articles, if I were a half-decent writer and willing to go through footnoting everything (and confirming the web-sources aren’t bullshitting sources). Sad part being, I doubt it would penetrate your party-shields, and while poking the ideologue with a stick is fun..it’s not fun ALL the time. Sometimes it’s just boring, esp. when I can predict the response to better than 99% accuracy.

    but, y’know what? I don’t have to work particularly hard to find lots of present and near-present day examples of police militarization in response to questionable “Domestic” threats, complete with fatalities on the civilian side and embarassment on the agency side, and ass-covering instead of accountability.

    Locally to the state of Washington, there are a variety of incidents to choose from, nationally, also a variety, ranging from local LEOs to State, and…yes, Igor, Federal as well.

    Contrarian’s worried about another Oklahoma City, well…McVeigh’s pretext was Waco, which by the defense of the agencies themselves in hearings was a colossal fuck-up from beginning to roasty toasty end, complete with calls to the local sherriff’s department during the initial assault (which puts the lie to the claim the agents identified themselves before storming the castle…er, big shack), Dead witnesses and corrupted evidence, and of course, all the suspects were dead too.

    A couple years before that, an FBI sniper killed a woman holding an infant after federal marshalls killed a dog, a kid, and wounded another kid at Ruby Ridge over what amounts to a failure to appear in a case ruled “Entrapment” by a Federal Judge when it finally DID reach trial.

    Last year, the Dept. of Education’s SWAT team (*Yeah, what the fuck is that about?) had themselves an EPIC example of “Sorry Wrong House”, over a defaulted student loan.

    Where are these agencies getting the idea that they SHOULD be doing this kind of shit, much less that it’s acceptable conduct for those wearing a badge?

    It’s from people who keep saying “Protect us Uncle Sugar!!” that’s where.

    The more you ASK them to do, the more they’re going to to TRY and do-and that’s if they’re actually ethical and want to serve the public, and the less they CAN do proportional to what you’re demanding they do. It’s the McDonalds scenario under hte BEST conditions.

    Under, shall we say, less ideal conditions, these agencies are still answerable to the Bureaucrats assigned them by the White House, and those people may have interests that do not coincide with the preservation of the civil rights of individual citizens-they may, in fact, hold a collectivist view as to where and how those civil rights end-one that does not allow for dissent, but does allow for the use of Paramilitary tactics and warrantless search, uncharged or chargeless detention of ‘suspects’, and the attitude that suspects shall be considered guilty-else they would not be suspects.

    Which I’ve observed, seeing Republicans in the early 2000s and Democrats in the latter 2000’s (last decade) tends to shift in acceptability depending on which party is, in fact, in power.

    Rather than, y’know, being viewed by EITHER party as unacceptable when they are IN power.

    So, if the morality shifts depending on who’s in power (and it does) then, maybe those of us who aren’t dedicated rabid fans should consider pushing to LIMIT that power-lest one side or the other manage to make the transition to being in power ALL THE TIME.

  • Igor

    57-Cannon leads off again with a naivete that would embarrass any other fumbler. One could only reach your conclusions with generous helpings of Excluded Middle and Invalid Generalization.

  • Cannonshop

    #56 Maybe not, but prior record shows he IS a fan of expanded government (Like Contrarian), and such “Dark Agencies” are a natural outcome of expansive, micromanagement prone governmental control structures.

    AS are the policies that lead to militarizing the Police. It’s the rule of natural consequences-the more centralized control you demand, the more aggressive that control will become.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I might be wrong but I think Igor called the FBI a “dark agency,” so I don’t think he’s exactly a fan.

  • Cannonshop

    The SWAT team involved was…you guessed it, FBI certified, Igor.

  • Cannon is referring to this incident, Igor.

  • Igor

    IMO we don’t NEED paramilitary police at all. But I think the police force administrators are quite happy to get the FBI money and training because it alleviates their budgets, and it provides an extra increment of swagger.

    IMO militarizing the police is counter-productive.

    What’s the Pima County “Warrant Service”? A police scandal?

  • Charles

    Zingzing. Good words for it, rabbit hole. Albert Pike was a 33rd degree mason and a genius much like Hitler. He started the KKK and wrote letters to the man who started the Illuminati cult of which many of our elite spring from. They are public record and are easily found. I must say that to rightly divide the truth will be difficult at best.

    Albert Pike predicted the three world war scenario. Prediction is really not the right word since all factions of his comradeship are continuing to follow his plans. Yes, the devil is in the mix. Deep, deep hole (as in the bottomless pit).

    Be as wise as serpents (real important) but gentle as doves. We got just a few years before YAHWEH (GOD) has fulfilled His promise to King David and restored Israel as a nation (70 years He took from them by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar).

    YAHWEH can not lie. Pike was deceived by Lucifer himself and if you know anything about the Holy Scriptures you know this! The bonesmen of Bush worship Satan their God! Muslim’s are the king of the south, the US is the King of the north and we are at the end of the 11th chapter of the Book of Daniel and coming into the end of Revelations (read 18th chapter) Who has made the Nation rich?

    OK, I am not a holy roller but I did a lot of research. Nothing made sense to me until I turned 50 years old for some reason but I have a clear picture of what is happening. We can not escape this no more than we can escape death. Nether will any of these escape though they bring it about. The deceivers have also been deceived from the Rothschild folk down to the poorest of us. God help us!

  • Have to agree with Cannon here. For police forces – which are supposed to be civilian peacekeeping services – to equip themselves with – and use – the sort of armor and weaponry most of the world’s militaries can only dream of is little short of obscene.

    I acknowledge that there are some situations that can escalate into the necessity for a high degree of force, but surely that is what the National Guard is for?

    (And before anyone chirps up, no, Kent State was NOT one of those situations.)

  • Cannonshop

    #14 Igor, question: WHY do we NEED paramilitary police? Do we really need more incidents like Pima County’s “Warrant Service” public executions?

  • Blackthorn

    Joseph Cotto~~~~”However, the Founding Fathers drafted it as a living document. When modernizations need to be made, the feds should not hesitate in devising necessary interpretations of existing laws, or creating new ones like the Patriot Act, to deal with the problems at hand.”


    I agree with you and disagree with you. While the Founding Fathers did make a living document they also made the provisions necessary so that document could be changed when needed. They’re called amendments, and they are not passed by a simple majority vote from the fed. Try reading article 5 of said document. That’s what makes the Constitution a living document. I know many members of the fed, both right and left, would interpret it otherwise, and have the people believing it otherwise, but their interests are often self serving. And the fact is it was never meant to “live” that way.

    The Founding Fathers did not put the power to change that document solely in the hands of the fed for a reason. They didn’t want the fed to have that much power.

  • Zingzing

    so, wait if it (however it is spelled–the original poster couldn’t seem to make up his mind on that) is some sort of conflation of “nihilist,” as you define it (although I think “reject” is the wrong word), and “atheist supporter,” wouldn’t that be a wee bit redundant? I really can’t find any mention of the word (in whatever spelling,) other than some Internet screen names and some whack jobs.

    And our presidents are all satanists? (except Obama, he’s “a real Muslim,” never mind the fact that thousands of Christians have bowed before the king of Saudi Arabia, and the various Bushs have a much closer relationship…)

    And how do you know “the real truth”? Really, I’m fascinated. Would like to see how far this particular rabbit hole goes. A relevant quote from Pike with the correct spelling of the term would be helpful. Never heard of the guy before, but he sounds interesting.

  • Charles

    Zingzing. Albert Pike late 1800s said they were of those who rejected any authority. Nihilists (People who reject all morality and religious belief)It appears to be from the same word += Atheist supporter.
    If only you could know the real truth, All are truly of the Luciferian religion. Most all our Presidents are of this church. The most recent bowed before the King of Saudi Arabia (Obama). No Christian would do that, only a real Muslim.
    We are in the hand of the enemy folks, on every side and within!
    Yes Sarg, I picked up on that too!

  • everyone and anyone

    OMG, the buffoons in office are becoming like a fading myth, where they fail to exist simply because no one believes in them anymore.

  • Richard

    “Lies, damned lies, and statistics” is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent’s point. Both sides of the political spectrum use statistics to prove their own points. It’s like quoting the Bible out of the context of the situation being describe. Worthless

  • Costello

    Joe reminds me of the scene in that John Cleese movie where they hate everything about the Romans until everything the Romans do is pointed out.

    StopDem, what’s totally insane is your comment

  • zing, I think Dave has realized that he can attract this sort of entertainment even if he doesn’t put Ron Paul in the title.

  • Zingzing

    some of these comments are making the headline more and more obvious…

  • Igor

    38-Stop: how ’bout posting those scandalous videos on youtube?

  • The local news reported three more unexploded bombs in the Federal Building during the OKC bombing. I have videos of those TV news reports. These bombs were described as extremely sophisticated. Then this news simply dissappeared, never to be heard again.

    Right, because local news broadcasts are invariably 100% accurate, never report on the rumours that circulate during times of great public stress and confusion, and never inflate or exaggerate things to make them seem more dramatic than they are.

  • Igor

    33-Joe: Really? Everything? Even the roads and ports, etc.?

    “…all things federal represent a clear and present danger to the people of America. ”

  • StopDemockery

    The local news reported three more unexploded bombs in the Federal Building during the OKC bombing. I have videos of those TV news reports. These bombs were described as extremely sophisticated. Then this news simply dissappeared, never to be heard again.

    Our government did it, to promote fear and justify tighter security, citizen survellience and more governmental power: just like 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. The US government is a corporation for profit, owned and controlled by Khazarian Zionists (non-Jewish illuminazi banksters who hijacked our world and minds). The Zionists’ covert mission is to destroy most of Humanity and openly ensalve our survivors in their one world government nightmare. Self defense is just common sense. To sit by calmly awaiting our demise is totally insane.

  • Igor: that’s fine by me, as long as they have a good union.

  • Igor

    32-DrD: I think you’re signed up on that list from just following the link!

    Careful bud, we’re watching you!

  • jon

    We are in the time of Revelations. Those that live by the sword shall die by the sword. Repent and praise Jesus. Those that have ears, let them hear.


    The government is themselves terrorist attempting to take all our freedom and rights and further their police state and prison nation. The government needs to be brought down, revolt

  • The FBI may well have that claim to make, having made more than $30 billion dollars in the drug trade in the past year, but the reality is that all things federal represent a clear and present danger to the people of America. It engages in war by propagating lies about an enemy that doesn’t exist, brings drugs into the communities to fund its covert wars, then, arrests and imprisons its customers. Further, it uses all of these tactics to enslave my fellow Americans. I say, give up on an FBI watch list. Start with an FBI non-watch list. It would be considerably easier to maintain and would better reflect the reality that America is pi$$ed at its government..

  • Clav, just to save you time, I followed Trinity’s link in 31 but couldn’t find any sovereign citizen/domestic terrorist signup form.

    All I see are a bunch of people who seem to think that Obama has stolen the moon.

    I’ll keep looking, though, since I know this is something you are very keen on.

  • ^Trinity^
  • Clavos

    Where do I sign up to get on the FBI’s list?

  • hhggg

    The FBI claims that they are “being inundated right now with requests for training from state and local law enforcement on sovereign-related matters.” This supposed demand for a response to a nonexistent threat probably would not be there at all”

    I see right though this, i hope all others do too. They’re obvious preparing and wanting to train / brain-wash as many local state law as possible so when the times comes for Obama to take the sovereignty of America, he’ll have his hired goons to take care of the “terrorist” not backing up a north american union or some other crap that aims at slowly or quickly taking our sovereignty. TSA is a PYSOP for people to get just a little bit more comfortable with a police state year by year. Obama was portrayed as our savior after bush but he’s doing what bush does/did. Bush SR killed JFK , hi-jacked the nation for his boss, lying that he never had CIA connection before being director of the CIA, which just recently turns out he WAS in the CIA the whole time with Howard Hunt. The Bush Connection explains all, great documentary.

  • Nalle attracts all the winners, it seems, from the Idiot- ‘scuse, infowars website, I guess.

  • @24

    Too bad didn’t take his laptop with him. Must be missing the action.


    The government creates all the problems the claim they want to protect you from?

  • Zingzing

    Annihlist/annilist/annialism… What are these things?

  • John Lake and the Contrarian sit on the sidelines, awaiting further developments.

    Actually, the Contrarian is sitting in an airport, awaiting his connecting flight.

  • Way to go, Sarge, knock some sense into those numb skulls.

  • Sgt Barefoot

    Annihlists are people whom believe there should be no government what so ever.
    Are we to belive that soverign constitutional rights such as possesion of a firearm has the FBI alarmed that the practitioners of self preservation are going to simultaneously turn violent at the “drop of a hat”?
    Annilists are untenable, Americans are peace loving and are willing to keep the peace at great sacrifice. Becoming assimulated into stereotypes is not a soverign act it is an act of annialism.

  • The whole world is going nuts. Rose and Dreadful support Mr. Nalle. John Lake and the Contrarian sit on the sidelines, awaiting further developments. Tommy Mack goes along “with the rant” until he discovers it implicates Obama. And Joseph Cotto, the moderator and the ultimate “realist,” denounces both the libertarians and the right and left fringe as outright lunatics, holding only the center as having any claim to sanity.

    Way to go, gents. You’re putting on quite a show.

  • Some Guy

    There are vastly more incidents of police going berzerk and attacking innocent people than anyone in the tax protestor camp.

  • DHS? Total waste of time. Consolidating agencies to create more bureaucracy and less accountability.


  • I tended to go along with your rant, Dave, except when you hopped up on the GOP hobby horse of “spending beyond its means” and trying to pin the PATRIOT Act on the Obama Administration. You provoke thought, though. Can you imagine graduating from the FBI Academy today and going to work collecting information from nitwit informants? I would like to read your opinion of the necessity for the Department of Homeland Security.


  • old dad

    hey leave the rebellious alone they are our Arab spring that will cleanse our country as it did by the us backed libyans Egyptians etc etc. we started the regime changes and now we should support our freedom fighters win over the corrupt government.

  • The libertarian fringe once again proves that it is no saner than its leftist or rightist counterparts.

    Let us look at this issue on a reasonable basis; if the United States conducts special operations to ensure that international threats are neutralized, then why should it not look within its own borders? We cannot be so naive as to think that our nation’s homegrown terroristic threats are any less dangerous than those abroad. As a matter of fact, since they are internal, they yield the possibly for far more destruction.

    Doubtlessly, following the Constitution is of paramount importance. However, the Founding Fathers drafted it as a living document. When modernizations need to be made, the feds should not hesitate in devising necessary interpretations of existing laws, or creating new ones like the Patriot Act, to deal with the problems at hand. The “pro-liberty” dogmatists never seemed to have understood this practical reality.

    In short, we need a worldly government to deal with the modern world itself. Anything less is begging for trouble.

  • Pavel

    Has the FBI and the Muslim Brotherhood linked politicians in the Obama administration finally read the Declaration of Independence and the first ten amendments of the Constitution appropriately named the Bill of Rights, specifically the Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Amendments that the Obama administration and his appointments in the courts are viciously attempting to destroy. Members of the National Rifle Association and those organizations with parallel ethical perspectives will be targeted for investigations and apathetic searches. If you are a shooter of the politically over used term “assault weapons” specifically any 50 caliber firearm; you will be the target of the FBI, CIA, TSA, CPB, and Homeland Security as a possible American terrorist.

  • Igor

    Local police forces welcome this FBI influence because it means funding for paramilitary police training, which is badly needed these days as local budgets are severely cut. So what it means is that traditional local police are used in smaller numbers for public protests, and more of them are the new paramilitary force.

    Also, it means that local police have a big debt to the FBI, which they repay by overlooking FBI transgressions, such as illegal arrests and detentions, and also, apparently, agents provocateur, brought in by the FBI to discredit protesters.

    The FBI IS a dark agency, and it has a very large unaccountable dark budget. They certainly have a large team of agents provocateur (every Secret Police since the Ancient Egyptians has had one).

  • Rob Stanton

    Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols may have been anti-government and intended to blow up the Oklahoma federal building, but the facts are: the FBI trained and directed McVeigh to stage the attacks. The same FBI that was responsible for the murders of the residents of the Waco compound of the Branch Dividians.

  • I second Chris on this one, Dave. Good piece.

    My immediate thought was: What else can one expect from an agency that was founded by a madman?

  • Great Blog posting Dave. A Government that watches it’s people, fears them and they fear them because they KNOW they are doing wrong. Remember that.


  • John Lake

    Well Glenn, I appreciate the unpredictable threat from homegrown terrorists, some of whom may not even OWN yachts. But I am a little lost as to how we transit from “Hundreds of thousands of sovereign citizens” to individual homegrown McVeighs. The FBI source seems concerned that Americans may take advantage of their right to free assembly.
    In fact the Oakland Occupiers are becoming increasingly violent. Maybe a government office should be formed to listen to their grievances.

  • Glenn, statistics remain my main defense. As a percentage of crime and over the amount of time in which they took place, the crimes you reference are relatively insignificant on a statistical basis. There have always been spree killers and terrorists of one kind or another. The incidence is not increasing in any way which can be measured meaningfully.


  • Glenn Contrarian

    John –

    Glenn interprets the “sovereign” thing as being a terrorist on a yacht in the East River with a dirty bomb.

    No, that is NOT what I said.

    Jim and Dave and Cooper –

    Whether or not they were on the government’s radar doesn’t mean the government had yet found probable cause to do anything. Of course, this was back in the day when the Fourth Amendment meant something. There’s much more to the story – but for the purposes of disproving Dave’s frankly naive notion that domestic terrorism by American citizens isn’t much of a threat, all I need do is point at McVeigh and Nichols (and also the post 9/11 anthrax attack).

  • I spent a good deal of time inside law enforcement and struggled to get the PC out of our intelligence gathering. The Feds liked to look at the only remaining PC’ed groups because they were low hanging fruit and justified greater budgeting. As an agency the FBI really avoided public statements about terrorists being Middle Eastern or that the border wars with Mexico were very real. Privately, inside our community it wasn’t that way at all. There are many more good agents trying to do the right thing as there are agenda driven political bosses. (see my most recent post)

    However, the FBI is a horribly bureaucratic agency. You have no idea how hard it is to break through their entrenched and PC approved mindset.

    That said, domestic terrorism is real, just not as bad as they want you to think. And the fact that the government fears normal citizens suddenly getting fed up and fighting against the intrusive nature of our government is actually a good thing. That is why the founding fathers gave us the 2nd amendment. It was as much a tool to fight the overreach of the government as it was to fight off marauding Indians and the French.

    Had we not been so blessed, all of this would be mute a long time ago. There would be no free Internet, or thought or movement or opinion. Why? Look at China, Italy, Belgium, or Europe in general where you can be arrested and jailed for saying something the government doesn’t like. It is and has always been the habit of government and the people who run it to attempt to control its subjects, more and more and more. It is just human nature.

    Count you blessing.

  • “The truth is that they’ve realized that domestic terrorism isn’t much of a threat, so they have decided to fabricate hypothetical threats on very little evidence to keep their funding coming and justify their existence”.


    When you’re right, Dave, you’re very right, and here you are right!

  • BS Glenn. McVeigh and Nichols acted as part of a group, not alone. And they were already on the FBI’s radar well before they acted, because they were involved in organized groups which advocated terrorist activity. That’s enormously different from someone just claiming they want the government to leave them alone.

    Most of the domestic terrorists we have caught were caught because they worked with others who turned them in or were in groups the FBI infiltrated. Even Eric Rudolph had a wide network of supporters who helped him.

    The only lone wolf we’ve had who has been particularly successful was the Unabomber and he was politically left-wing, if anything. Mostly he just had personal grudges he tried to justify with a loony agenda.

    The truth is that they’ve realized that domestic terrorism isn’t much of a threat, so they have decided to fabricate hypothetical threats on very little evidence to keep their funding coming and justify their existence.


  • Cooper

    Glenn you are a tool, John thank you! Great article by the way I am checking the facts though you can’t believe everything you hear.. GLENN!!

  • jim

    glen still believes the gubbermints version of OKC and 911. shows you were his head is don’t it?

  • John Lake

    Glenn interprets the “sovereign” thing as being a terrorist on a yacht in the East River with a dirty bomb. He may be on to something. Here is what I was writing when I saw his comment:
    The first thing that strikes me is all this referral to “sovereign citizens.” It sounds like the Federal Bureau statement was written by an agent in Great Britain. Three cases in three years; I suppose that’s an increase. And the Bureau says it is “Inundated with threats.”
    “Hundreds of thousands” of “sovereign citizens” who can turn violent “at the drop of a hat”— If we place all the Tea Party people, and the Occupy people together with Ron Paul’s libertarians, we might be able to meet the hundreds of thousands threshold. We may have to go some. But when civilians respond to years of faulty elections, and un-responsive politicians, there may be some, not the brightest bulbs in the chandelier to be sure, who would call their protests, “drop of a hat.”
    The extremists are re-acting to spending beyond its means and taxing beyond our ability to pay, Mr. Nalle says; clearly Tea Party. “Outrage at tax collection” sounds like the Libertarians among us are uprising. Going off the gold standard is one of the lesser complaints of the Occupy group.
    It sounds to me as if some weak link in the F.B.I. has a bad case of lumbago, and might rather stay home.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Do the names Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols ring a bell? They weren’t claiming to be “sovereign citizens” by name, but were their core beliefs really that much different when it came to their opinion of the authority of the American government? No, I don’t think so.

    Furthermore, when was the last time that anyone who wasn’t an American citizen assassinated (or attempted to assassinate) an elected official in America? Last I recall, Lee Harvey Oswald defected…so today, in the absence of a Soviet Union which would have welcomed him, would it really be a stretch to see him becoming a ‘sovereign citizen’? No, I don’t think so. And bear in mind the fact that before Obama ever took the oath of office, death threats against him were 400% higher than they were against Bush, never mind the vast damage that Bush did to America (including his protection of Cheney’s treason).

    The reason the FBI is worried, Dave, is because when it comes to foreign terrorists, we largely know what to look for. In addition to organic and allied HUMINT in nearly every nation on the planet, we can and do use software filters to troll through billions of e-mails and FB posts and so forth looking for communications between would-be terrorists…but of course some will still slip through.

    However, when it comes to ‘sovereign citizens’ and homegrown lone wolves, it’s almost impossible to detect them before they’ve already acted – again, look at McVeigh and Nichols. A lone wolf with a reasonable amount of intelligence could do a great deal of damage, and if he’s smart and careful, he won’t get caught – remember the anthrax attacks? Except for 9/11, what was the worst terrorist attack against Americans? One that was conducted by American citizens who didn’t accept American authority within American borders.

    So…no, I don’t think the FBI’s blowing things out of proportion. i admit I worry about some idiot Islamist with a black-market nuke (or dirty bomb) on board a yacht trolling up the Potomac to D.C. or up the East River to NYC, but short of that, yes, the greatest terrorist threat America faces IS from homegrown terrorists, from those American citizens who reject the authority of the American government.