Far Beyond Driven

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Greetings, gentle readers.

–Vanilla Section–

Well now, here we are. Just over a year has passed since I first found BC and started writing not only comment, but some articles here. So much has happened both in the world, and here at BC.

Not that I’m about to recap, or anything. Just noticing as I looked at my author’s page and saw the dates on the handful of articles I’ve actually contributed.

What I have noticed is how much the website has grown, matured, and expanded. So many voices raised, so many thoughts shared, so much discussion. Some of the dialogue gets heated at times, but sifting through the diatribes you find quite a lot of wisdom and truth about the human condition, it makes the reading well worth the time.

But that’s not what I’m here for right now.

What I am wanting to rant about is the propensity for so many folks to seek standardization and normalcy everywhere they go. I want to explore why many folks jus can’t get their heads out of the narrow confines of standardization and arbitrary authoritarian rules.

–Spicy Time–

cases in Point….

for so much of human Culture, there is a propensity to say what was good Yesterday, is normal for Tomorrow….

“as below so above and beyond
I’d imagine…
drawn beyond the lines of reason,
push the envelope,
watch it bend.”


there is an olde Thread around the site somewhere, where the Question was Asked…”what do you think the most important tool Man has created is?”

my Answer was “Symbols”

to explain that a bit, let me put forward the Idea that the most crucial part of humanity was birthed the first time Ug tried to convey something to Oog…

could have been noises, or scratches in the dirt to show how they were going to hunt, or a cave painting depicting some animal

to me, this is when we became Men and rose above other animals

to me, this discovery of Abstract Symbology that allowed communication is the basis for not only our humanity, but also enabled us to begin to Question and Discover….

language, music, math, art….. these are all Variations on theme, but each does the same thing… takes Symbols, and uses them to communicate

–Another Scoop of Vanilla–

Of course, this is a simple observation, and not really that profound in any way, shape or form. The reason I bring it up is to set the stage, actually.

You see, I recognize that it is important in some instances to standardize our symbology in order to communicate effectively without being misunderstood. Yet I also stand firmly behind the thought that it is even more important sometimes to break those strictures and structures in order to shake off the boundaries of convention.

Because very rarely is anything truly new discovered within the safety of conformity. That only when the boundaries are tossed aside can we open ourselves up to see more than we expect.

–Some nuts on that Sundae?–

“there is so… much… more…
that beckons me,
into these,
infinite Possibilities.”


so we hit on the Question of Why….

why push outside “the Box”

why stretch the normalcy of Convention

that would depend on what Conventions you are stretching now, wouldn’t it?

ask Newton why he needed to invent calculus, or why Shakespeare wrote in iambic pentameter

on and on

possibly, it’s just to get folks to look at something differently, or to engender deeper Thought

perhaps by smacking the Receptor in the metaphorical Face with Symbology that falls outside of standard Conception it’s Hoped that the Audience will be forced outside the ruts of Convention and ponder Things in a new Light or Shadow

perhaps it’s just wanting to shout in a different Voice in order to rise above the Din

–More Vanilla–

Of course some don’t like the idea of stretching convention in such a manner. They find it disrespectful, strange, or just plain distasteful.

They said the same thing about Charlie Parker and bebop jazz when they first heard it. How stunned were the powers that be when Bird danced around the melody, never quite playing it, but implying it by what he was playing. It took a bit more for the listener to follow, but those who did found it well worth it, and the case can be made that Bird changed how some look at music forever.

So I would say that in some instances, it’s about a unique voice. Especially in the medium of the Web. So much text out here, and when you read it, what voice do you hear in your skull?

–The Hot Fudge–

and that’s the nut of it, kiddies….

make your own unique Voice heard, when the time comes, fuck Convention…

“always upward”

or, as is put in this little embedded bit of Sight and Sound….

“learn to swim”

nuff said from yer Humble narrator… thanks fer *Listening*


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About gonzo marx

  • Some good points made here, Gonzo, and I think I agree with your ideas about symbolism.

    But here’s a question for you: is an original and thought-provoking comment made more so by a lack of punctuation or capitalization? Or because the text is center-justified? I don’t think so, but obviously that’s a matter of taste.

    I guess my larger point is that standardization of format doesn’t necessarily yield conformity of thought, and similarly, a rejection of those standards doesn’t necessarily yield content that’s outside the box in any meaningful sense.

  • well Lisa… some good Questions there, and of course spot on with the crux of the Topic…

    here’s my take…

    remember what i said about iambic pentameter in the Article?

    it’s like that in a Way

    by utilizing differing structures, one tends to draw the attention of those you are attempting to communicate with outside of normal structure

    hopefully subliminally prying open a closed mind into *looking* at the Thoughts conveyed in a different manner…

    example: the diference between a comic and a comedian in current cultural context…

    a comic tell Jokes

    after Lenny Bruce, and as perfected by Carlin and Pryor… a good comedian becomes that “hip conversationalist” at a party, or the bar…talking with the audience in a more personal fashion, and utilizing quirks of storytelling or Observation about the human condition/current events or frailties and foibles to elicit a Laugh at the Absurdities common to the human condition…

    so.. in the case of my own weirdness…

    think of It more as trying to shed the Formalities of notmal structures, and trying to make the Interaction more like a personal Conversation…

    or even an attempt at more direct Communication…

    i woudl hope anyone familiar with my admittedly bizzarre stylings would readily acede that the “Voice” i use *sounds* different in the Mind’s ear than that of more conventional typings…

    and if for that Reason alone, it’s enough for the likes of me

    but let’s look at it more as Symbology…

    could it be that by utilizing different punctuation and capitalization structures than the norm, i might just be trying to draw more attention from the Reader towards what i am capitalizing, rather than just the beginning of a sentence…..?

    can the rampant ellipses be for the sake of timing, or dramatic pauses, ather than the standards of punctuation…

    perhaps it’s because i try and approach it like Music… where the differences between a whole note and a quarter note can make a difference in the overall Experience

    perhaps i am merely attemting to get the Reader more involved in a deeper Way, by getting them to contemplate why i muck about with Convention while they are Reading…

    maybe i just like being weird?

    now, i am in full Agreement with your last sentence when you say…
    *I guess my larger point is that standardization of format doesn’t necessarily yield conformity of thought, and similarly, a rejection of those standards doesn’t necessarily yield content that’s outside the box in any meaningful sense.*

    you are correct in the entire Statement, i have no Argument there

    but it seems to me that it doesn’t take into account when conformity DOES dull expression… or when non-Conformity DOES break some boundaries

    and i think that’s Important…

    i also think that merely being Unique can be important as well… again i cite ee cummings, Charlie Parker, Shakespeare, Lenny Bruce… and so may Others, who broke boundaries and brought us all something Different to explore… merely by being a Unique Voice…

    your mileage may vary


  • I definitely see where you’re coming from in terms of trying to draw the reader’s attention, Gonzo. My argument here would be that sometimes unconventional formatting only serves to make it more difficult for the reader to discern your meaning — not a good thing, in my opinion, in a venue where most writing serves to be informative (we do not, after all, publish literature or experimental fiction here).

    While I agree that it’s a matter of taste, I’ll note that the success of such efforts overall might be the subject of honest disagreement amongst reasonable people.

    And you’ll get no argument from me that some of the greatest creative geniuses have been those who have broken all the rules — the examples you cite are all excellent ones — but alas, most of us are not geniuses and must simply strive to make ourselves understood as best we can.

  • i’m very Glad you “get it” , Lisa…

    might i just add a layer of esoterica to the Mix?

    i have abit of a background in gung fu.. and one of the dictums of Teaching the Subject is to give the Student just a little of the Information, and the Tools to figure the rest of it out themselves…

    the Idea behind this is that it is better for Learning something completely to think about it, and find the Answer yourself than to just have Authoritarian pronouncements and rote memorization alone…

    i realize such borders on both Hermetic and Heretical thinking…

    but there ya are

    for the Record… i’m far from any kind of “genius”

    but i do like weird…

    and i think that how i portray my Thoughts in this text-only method of Communication aids in Understanding for some and Confusion for others

    just what i Wanted… those that Understand have another point of View to ponder, and those who are Confused face the Choice…

    walk away… or try and figure shit out… or even fire back a Comment and Ask/Argue

    no matter what, some form of Communication and thought Provocation has been achieved


  • Clavos

    gonzo, your #4 kinda loads the topic in such a way that one is hesitant to brand oneself as confused, but I have to say that, IMO, if one has something to communicate, one should strive to do so in a clear and easily understood manner.

    I majored in English Lit, with a minor in writing, and I never liked ee cummings for just that reason. I always thought his style was too artificial and contrived to be taken seriously.

    That said, I’ll give you that (s)he who really wants to know what you’re saying will struggle through the weirdness, and as a result, probably remember it better.

    OTH, you’re one of the posters and commenters on BC whose every word I read and try to digest, even when I disagree, which, I’m sure you’ve determined by now, is more often than not.


  • As a student of tai chi myself, Gonzo, I hear where you’re coming from, and in fact, I think that giving students the tools to teach themselves forms the basis of any good teaching, and while I think that our public school systems might find such thinking heretical, I myself do not.

    If provocation is your goal, then I would continue to argue that a well-constructed sentence is still quite capable of achieving that goal — and since we seem to have come to an impasse, I will thank you for the discussion and agree to disagree!

  • of course i Understand and Respect yer Position here Lisa…

    and part of the Provocation in this Article had to do with showing the difference between those well constructed sentences.. (the Vanilla parts)… and the dramatic Emphasis of changing it to my more …ahem… *normal* Stylings…

    hopefully, the Difference is immediately noted by the Reader…

    my Curiosity is… did you *hear* the Difference as you read?

    both *styles* have a certain atmospheres, and my Thought is that i completely Understand the desire for standarization in text for News purposes, newspapers, books (informative, not Literature) and other infromational Sources is to be striven for…

    i think that Editorials ( my pieces are always marked “opinion”).. and especially so here in the digital aether of the Net.. are suited to such license of styling differences

    again… just a unique Voice amongst the Din

    and i do want to Thank you for the discussion…

    having this back and forth is the Reason for posting the Article… to get folks to talk about it, and so others could read it and ponder for themselves…

    just like any of the other mad keypeckings i’ve spewed onto everyone’s Monitaur previously


  • thanks Clavos…

    i’m both disturbed and flattered that you read my Stuff so dedicatedly (kidding… a Jest)


    but i digress…

    hopefully some of the comments and the Article itself hep shed some Light on my Reasoning…strange as it may be

    but i Ask in return… espcially since we do disAgree on some topics but not all…

    why is it then, if not for the different *sound* of my *Voice*.. and what i provoke/invoke would you bother? i mean more clearly… what is it then that makes you enjoy the Read?

    just Curious


  • Clavos

    why is it then, if not for the different *sound* of my *Voice*.. and what i provoke/invoke would you bother? i mean more clearly… what is it then that makes you enjoy the Read?

    gonzo, I would have thought the answer to that would have been obvious (using a poor imitation of your style):

    the *Content*….

    Agree or disagree, your posts are usually thought provoking and deserving of consideration…

    but i digress…. :>)

  • aaarRRRrgGGGGggHHHhh!!!!

    hoist by me own Petard!!


    fair enough, Clavos…

    i do try and toss some of that there *Content* stuff into the mix…

    as well as a bit of the olde boardwalk carnie style of Entertainment

    but ya Knew that…



  • “He who fusses over anything spoils it.
    He who grasps anything loses it.”
    _-Lao Tzu

    Bur being a student of Eastern philosophy, you should know that, Gonzo–and also realize the fallacy of your argument.

  • troll

    how odd…not

    I find gonzo’s writing far easier to follow than the work of many BC well formed formulae producers

    it has something to do with the spacing – dense Germanic paragraphs are not reader friendly on the web


  • well now, that same Argument can be aimed at those who favor more strict standardization…

    and anyone can take Quotes out of Context for their own Purposes

    might i Suggest that strict Formalization is the Stone in the river…

    and stream of Consciousness is the Water…

    just a Thought


  • I am a Taoist. I’m also familiar with stream of consciousness writing. I also can tell when people are over-compensating. And with that, I’ll leave you to your desperate cries for attention.

  • and of course troll nails another Facet…

    Netizen conventions as opposed to those of Print

    Bog and JuJu knows i’ve trolled far too many Forums of various kinds since the late ’80s found me with a 300 baud acoustic modem hooked into a pirate Iron Horse BBS

    objects in mirror are closer than they appear


  • troll

    hey Ray – do you and gonzo have a history or something – ?

    I’m not clear on the meaning of your last…which darkly seemed to contradict itself

  • duane

    I am a Taoist . Ahahahhaha. Shit. That’s the funniest thing I’ve read today. Oh Lord. Good one, Ray.

  • for troll in #16 – yeah, Ray and i have conversed before.. he feel smy stylings are an attempt to hide some defeciancies in my Arguments… or inconsistencies of Position

    that i’ll leave up to the folks who have actually read a decent sized portion of my ramblings…. the Consistency part at least

    for Ray in 14 – funny.. i didn’t realize Taoism involved metaphorical drive-by kicking in the nuts

    howabout you do more than make a snark, but state your Reasoning for discussion? i Respect your right to a viewpoint, and as i told you on another Thread if you don’t like the Way i screed…

    don’t read it

    it’s really just that Easy…

    duane in #17 – thanks for the Laugh, but i know you just stopped by for the TooL video i embedded…



  • duane

    Gonzo: but i know you just stopped by for the TooL video i embedded

    Well, to be fair to both of us, I read your article, of course … twice.

    Then I watched the video, of course, Tool, in all their polyrhythmic crunchiness, being irresistible to the likes of me.

    I, not being a Taoist, feeling free of the behavioral guidelines imposed by such wisdom as

    “In dealing with others,
    Know how to be gentle and kind
    In speaking,
    Know how to keep your words”

    decided to imply an impolite Question to Ray based on said drive-by.

    I am pondering your article. I am sure that I have yet to grok it for all it’s worth. If it were merely a poll, I would side with your opinion concerning style, having enjoyed your writings.

    But that ain’t ‘nuf said. More later.

    Carry on.

  • ah duane.. yer far beyond…

    loved the Quote;



  • WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.

    And that’s all I have to say about that.

  • heh…Victor..i’m speechless

    possibly due to the Rube Goldberg device holding me glassies open while shaving my tongue…

    but your comment reminds me of an old lightbulb Joke….

    “how many Surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?



    hey.. i liked it


  • gonzo-

    I have a different take on writing. For me, my words should have a rhythm and a texture that are inherent in their phrasing. If I were to rely on the appearance of the text, it would be like holding up a sign that says “applause” or “laughter.” It’s not about convention. I’m certainly not about conventions. It’s just that my words need to do their work without stage directions.

    I want the rhythm of my words to carry on into the mind even if their are not yet understood.

    That’s just me.

  • duane

    “what do you think the most important tool Man has created is?”

    My answer would have been “writing.” But obviously, symbols would have to predate writing, so I would agree with you there. Check.

    In discussing Oog and Ug, predecessors of the esteemed Og (ca. 40,000 BC), upon whom I usually base my prehistoric “histories,” I infer that you mean that words themselves are symbols, irrespective of how one might choose to further symbolize them in writing. Yes? Check.

    I might disagree that music is symbolic. As Roger Dean, the artist for Yes album covers, said (paraphrasing — I’m so well read!), “Music does not refer.” Long before there were little black dots, there was music. ‘Tis but a quibble, and does not detract from the Substance of your thesis.

    Music does indeed communicate. But not in the same way that words or mathematical equations communicate. It is quite mysterious to me. Check.

    Because very rarely is anything truly new discovered within the safety of conformity.

    A scientific credo. We presume that discovery is something to be sought after. Makes me think of Religion. Check.

    “Oh so many many ways for me to show you
    How your dogma has abandoned you .”

    perhaps it’s just wanting to shout in a different Voice in order to rise above the Din

    Perhaps a lot of honesty coming through.

    “We have to shout above the din of our Rice Crispies
    We can’t hear anything at all.”

    it’s about a unique voice.

    You want us to hear you as though we were having a face-to-face conversation over a coffee or a beer.

    and when you read it, what voice do you hear in your skull?

    It is so difficult to convey the tone of voice, the nuance of inflection, the averted eye, the hidden smile, the raised eyebrow, the thoughtful pause, the hand gesture, the straight-faced joke, the grimace, the rolling eyes, the rapid fire burst of words vs. the careful stringing of bits and pieces of phrases together.

    It doesn’t matter when you’re reporting a news story. All that matters is the information. Information. The four or five ‘W’s. Information is not all that’s conveyed in communicating. Maybe, among other things, you want us to acknowledge this.

    It’s worth trying.

    I wonder too what voice people hear when they are preparing to respond to other comments or posts. Tempers flare up very easily online, and I just have to wonder how much of it is because of the impersonal nature of the typed word.

    Don’t get me wrong. Anonymity is a valuable commodity at sites like BC. But it does seem to cause a few problems.

    learn to swim

    Hmm. A very angry song.

    “Mom, please flush it all away.”

    Out of context, I see what you’re saying. Not dissimilar from your tagline.

    The Parker analogy is effective. What you are asking for then is the patience of the Gentle Readers to “hear the melody” in a slightly different way. Your melodies are … uh … melodious. Keep adding the grace notes, bends, slides, inversions, suggestions of dissonance fading back into the scale, keeping listeners a little off balance, hoping that this will motivate them to meet you halfway with a little extra discernment.

    Pantera kicks ass.

    Just a few random thoughts.

    Carry on.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Very nice piece…

    Just beware of the old saw about the magician not explaining his tricks… Some of us, like the gentl;e readers above, actually pay attention to you.

  • duane…

    i’m flabbergasted, you grok in Fullness

    you even caught the Pantera.. and probably got the Jest with the title of the Article being from one album and my putting another very specific title as the amazon link…

    but i digress…

    it’s all jaz(z)… and i can Play

    Ruvy… thanks
    this bit was about “explaining Tricks”, to an extent…

    hopefully it quirked a grin


  • non-conformity may be uncomfortable for some…but refreshing for the rest of us….

    do carry-on.

  • Okay Gonzo, like staring at a good dessert and not being able to eat it, I gave in and read this thing, even thought I’ll be late for an appointment.

    I’m a new diabetic-your references to sugary treats I used to be able to eat was downright cruel.

    Having said that I thoroughly enjoyed the article, and I’m sorta pissed that you don’t wrtie more of them, like a street corner drug dealer always keeping his customers wanting/begging/pleading for more.

    Enjoyed it a lot

    Infinite Diversity in Infinate Combinations

  • for John in #23….
    thanks for stoppig by .. and i truly DO appreciate where yer coming from in the Critique… and i Understand your Point completely

    as i tried to demonstrate with the diffeences between the “Vanilla” sections.. i am quite capable of conversing in a normal structure

    i was Hoping that by setting differences in Stylings all within the same Article, i could demonstrate how manipulation of the Symbology of textual communications could be varied to help express those small things that are taken in sub-consciously via facial expressions, vocal inflection and the like in a new Way on screen

    i guess to some like yourself, it can come across heavy handed rather than Musical…

    “it’s a fair cop”

    at the same time, your own excellent Writing, and your statement about how you utilize phrasing to create your Voice as many great Writers do.. makes my Point for me

    my Way just exaggerates that in a method i find not only personally Enjoyable, but some find Entertaining given the *informality* of Net communications rather than the much more formal Print media…

    so many of the real Writers here on BC (yourself included John) DO have their own Voices by way of their word choices, phrasing and so on…

    for example: when i read a John Spivey article, the Voice i hear is a cross between Garrison Keelor (Prarie home Companion) and the PBS “happy little trees” painter (blast if i can remember his name)..a warm, melodious Voice, rich in inflection

    but you do give me much to think about myself… thanks

    chantal – as Always, thank you…
    i was pretty certain a visual artist such as yourself, shutterbug that you are… would catch it pretty easily..

    changing lighting or filters can obscure/reveal so much when it comes to the Lens…

    Jet – i knew ya couldn’t resist… glad ya found it *tasty*

    write more?

    geeez… you really do want a hobo with a chainsaw (nod to Suss) running loose, don’tcha?

    but it’s part of what i’m doing here in this Thread.. trying to decide things, trying to Listen as much if not more, than i spew…

    currently it appears the concensus is divided.. which is to be expected

    we will see how it Plays out, eh?


  • gonzo-

    I don’t object to your stylings, I just made an alternate case. At this point your stylings and you are one in my mind. (Are you also center-justified?) I would hate to see the style edited to “look right.” It would be like trying to make a poem look like prose. My cautionary note is that many contrive to be creative by being clever and so lose the content and meaning. I don’t think you have to worry about the content and meaning part though.

    I don’t think we invented symbols. They came packaged in our dreams, and most animals dream. We get to write them and paint them.


  • understood John…

    and yer probably right about the Symbols in a fundamental Way….

    it’s our shared Interpertation of them that i think we Invented… which is a large portion of what makes us Human…

    write them, paint them, sing them, and calculate with them…

    it’s the Abstraction part… i think


  • ok… i guess the last bit to touch upon here is a Facet i use quite a bit, not so much in this Article, but in most of my mad peckings…

    a post-modern propensity to sub-reference sub-cultural Substance

    like the quoting of song lyrics, lines from movies, Monty Python.. right down to “nuff said” and Excelsior being blatantly stolen from Stan Lee of Marvel Comics fame…

    again, it falls into line with using other “tools” to try and convey shades of meaning by utilizing known material (if the Reader catches the sub-reference), to strike mood or ambiance or atmosphere as an added layer of Communication

    i do tend to toss a lot of It out there, and i never expect anyone to get all of It, but the ones that do Resonate add some Flavor.. imo

    and that’s the Gist…

    thanks to everyone who read, and a thunderous golfclap to those who joined in the Conversation!


  • It ain’t over yet…

    One of the objections I have to much of modern academic poetry is the way in which the poets insert all sorts of references to other literature. It creates the need for a decoder ring and it also creates a poetic priest class that has all the inner knowledge and leaves the average reader flailing at the meaning. So I guess it matters what the writer’s intent really is, whether to go for wink, wink, nudge, nudge, or to go for the broadest possible symbolic reference that conveys the requisite depth and meaning.

    Sometimes a little doubt comes into play with referential things. Are Tool and Rush and Stan Lee more incisive and wise than Gonzo Marx? I’d be willing to bet they’re not. A lot of referential stuff lies in the realm of post-modern irony, but again, I wager that you are deeper than irony. I think there is yet a truer voice to be heard. Maybe you’re trying too hard.


  • well John, you raise some INteresting things to think about…

    such as some of the sub-referenced being “wiser” or not

    such is not my Purpose, instead i am utilizing much of it to try and strike a common Chord from the cultural background… like pointing to the Empire state building to define “tall” with a certain flavor…

    perhaps it’s not the best way for a Writer to communicate…

    but i ain’t no Writer, just a mad keyboard pecker

    and i certainly ain’t above Irony

    as for trying too hard, yes.. in this Article and the comments, i am indeed trying hard.. since it came to my Attention in an oblique fashion that there was some controversy regarding my peculiar style…

    but the Style itself is effortless to me, as you know.. i write in one “take”, and if anything.. go over it once for pure spelling errors (being dyslexic, i am prone to)

    other than that, what i type at the Moment is what comes onto the screen

    done for my own Joy, as is the excercise of mental muscles in the discussion in enter… more so in the handful of Articles i’ve spewed out in the last year…

    a deeper meaning to It all?

    well, yeah… sometimes…

    i guess part of It all is the recognition that the Journey can sometimes be just as Important as the Destination…

    sometimes more so…


  • Well Gonzo we all find our little ways to build or destroy the earth, some verbally, but most not intellectually.

    I read this again today and still enjoyed it any way. Write more despite the concenesses(sic) or is it concensi or I’ll drop a volcano on you…

    a fan

  • heh…

    thanks Jet.. much Appreciated for the vote of Confidence…

    but i’m not as certain, hence the gist of the Article itself

    i find myself torn between the two modes of Thought here…

    every point made by those advocating a more standardized Styling are completely valid, yet it rubs against the more freewheeling and expressive motif of what i’ve been doing around here for more than a year now…

    it appears to be perfectly Acceptable in Comments… but hitting the proverbial Wall when it comes to Articles…

    (credit where it’s Due: big E DID post this Article exactly as i wrote it…much luv fer E.O.)

    and thus my internal Conflict… stick with this medium/community and try and keep on doing what it is i have so much Fun in doing?

    try and maintain my Voice , but shift it into a more normal structure ? (the Vanilla section above show how that turns out)

    or stick to Heckling in the Comments portion?

    the Community is the Thing for me *here*.. i mean just look at this Thread, or any of the others for that matter…

    just on this one we range from yer Humble narrator’s insanity… the cool, calm Voice of a dynamite published Author in John… a card carrying scientific mastermind physicist in duane… the visual Art of chantal… and even your own prolific Vision…

    on and on

    where else can you find such a disparate conglomeration of unique Intellects discussing shit?

    that’s the draw… and what keeps me hitting the site day after day…

    much to ponder fer yer gonzo…

    on a side Note: you can’t even lift a volcano, much less oss one up here ya daft nutbar….



  • Gonzo…”on a side Note: you can’t even lift a volcano, much less oss one up here ya daft nutbar….”

    I was subtly hinting to see if you’d found just-published article on the Yellowstone Super volcano of interest. You seeM to know I lot about most things, but I didn’t know if geology or siesmology was in your forte.

    A fan

  • ooops…ain’t found the new Article yet…

    but i’m on my Way…


  • Great, now since reading this article several times, I can’t stop humming this…

    When I was young
    It seemed that life was so wonderful
    A miracle,
    oh it was beautiful,

    And all the birds in the trees
    Well they’d be singing so happily
    Oh joyfully,
    oh playfully watching me

    But then they sent me away
    To teach me how to be sensible
    Logical, oh responsible,

    And then they showed me a world
    Where I could be so dependable
    Oh clinical,
    oh intellectual,

    There are times
    when all the world’s asleep
    The questions run too deep
    For such a simple man

    Won’t you please,
    please tell me what we’ve learned
    I know it sounds absurd
    But please tell me who I am

    Now watch what you say
    Or they’ll be calling you a radical
    A liberal, oh fanatical,

    Oh won’t you sign up your name
    We’d like to feel you’re
    oh presentable,
    a vegetable

    At night when all the world’s asleep
    The questions run so deep
    For such a simple man
    Won’t you please,
    please tell me what we’ve learned
    I know it sounds absurd
    But please tell me who I am,
    who I am,
    who I am,
    who I am

    Supertramp, “The Logical Song”

    I hope this means I “got” your article?

  • ewwwww….Supertramp?


    of course ya “get it”, Jet…

    anyone who reads is gonna “get” something

    some get more than others, some like it, some don’t

    vive la differance’!

    but that’s not important right now (from Airplane)


  • Just keep going Gonzo, I’ll write part II of Have I become musically obsolete? if you’re not careful

  • Isn’t it ironic that I wrote 5 articles the week they decided to schlep off to las vegas?

  • and thus my internal Conflict… stick with this medium/community and try and keep on doing what it is i have so much Fun in doing?

    try and maintain my Voice , but shift it into a more normal structure ? (the Vanilla section above show how that turns out)

    or stick to Heckling in the Comments portion?

    This shouldn’t be a question, gonzo….

    It all depends on the motivation….why do you write the way you write? to please others? or to express yourself and get your point across?

    Don’t change to satisfy others…..vanilla is only good as ice cream…or pudding.

    Just keep doing what you do, the *way* you do it.


  • gonzo-
    I think you need to preserve your fun at writing. No straitjackets allowed. We aren’t in high school English anymore (or college for that matter). They can always put disclaimers at the top of your pieces……..I would emoticon here, but I don’t do emoticon.


  • geeez… you really do want a hobo with a chainsaw (nod to Suss) running loose, don’tcha?

    Why not? They made him the sports editor.

  • Mohjho

    Gonzo, nice post, you seem to attract a wide variety of insightful comments. Keep it up!

    A mad pecker (keyboard) like yourself has found your medium on the blog like ol Charley Christian with his new-fangled electric guitar.

    All the old beat poets would probably agree with you in your attempt to gain additional meaning from a slight twist of standard style.

    Its kind of funny how this works. Even Bob Dylan could not tell you the meaning of what he wrote even tho so many found personal insight to his ramblings.

    I agree with Spivey that symbology is probably not an invention any more than some bird invented flying. It is what we are.

    Whats with all the taoist here?

  • Jeremy

    awesome tool video. thats why you rock!

  • Gonzo, if I think of your style as “music”, it’s perfectly valid; however, when I focus on the art of communicating, for this twin hemisphere at least, I often find myself feeling that your style has begun to obscure your often righteous message, to the detriment of both the message and the messenger. Your devotion to your style is now actually working against your substance.

    I keep getting the feeling that you’re trying to apply musical artistic considerations to subjects that don’t always respond well to that kind of approach…

  • troll

    lots of folk have trouble listening to Schoenberg’s work as well…someone should go over his stuff and make it more palatable

  • gonzo marx

    heh..thanks troll


    the whole Music thang is a definite mixed Metaphor, “analogies, allegory and algorithm”..Parables, what have you…all tossed into the mix… it’s the way it Works foating out of my skull and onto the screen..


    and i do Appreciate your take on it

    but i must Respectfully say that the point is taken and moot at the same time


  • and on that Note…

    let me lay on ya the words of a Writer, as spoken by the late, great, Gary Cooper…

    it kinda sums up a lot of what i’ve been touching on

    this one is for big Al Barger….

    objects in mirror care closer than they appear


  • Calculus and Iambic Pentameter are tools to get the job done, gonzo, not ends in and of themselves…

  • JR

    Christopher Rose: Calculus and Iambic Pentameter are tools to get the job done, gonzo, not ends in and of themselves…

    Speak for yourself. I study Calculus for fun, without any expectation of using it to some other end.

  • troll

    I’m with JR – ah the ah ha of groking a proof…not entirely unlike stumbling over an understanding of levels of reference and intent in gonzo’s spew…errr – picture writing

    if you mess with the ISO the burn won’t fly

    that said – the comments section remains open for experiments in sympathetic communication

  • Christopher – i hear ya, but as i stated, bebop and Charlie Parker.. as for the “tools to get the job done”…

    that’s exactly what we’re talking about, my choice of “TooL”s

    when someone asked Miles Davis to define Music he said…
    “music is the space between the notes”

    i show the Differences in the original Post, utilizing different “means” toward the end…

    each are still *me* typing them, but can you Honestly tell me that you don’t *feel* the differences between each of the Sections?

    troll sez…
    *the comments section remains open for experiments in sympathetic communication*

    always upward

    not backwards…:::bows, hand over fist:::…


  • JR: Isn’t that like learning a language but never speaking it? Seems kind of pointless to me…

    troll: If calculus isn’t used, there’s no proof to grok…

    gonzo: “i show the Differences in the original Post, utilizing different “means” toward the end…” Only if somebody else can grok your meaning…

  • Christopher sez…
    *Only if somebody else can grok your meaning…*

    and can’t they?

    am i, or have i been, so Obscure that NOTHING comes through to the Readers?

    i put to you, that no matter what, anyoen who has read my Stuff walks away with something, maybe not everything, perhaps nto even what i intended, but something is Communicated

    so, that’s pretty much a straw man there Christopher…

    as i stated in a previous Comment,in the environment of BC, we have something more Unique than in the Print world of magazines/newspapers…

    a certain interActivity, the very Comments sections themselves…. where folks can Ask, and Question, and elucidation can and does occur

    now, unlike some of the other Contributers to BC, my stuff tends to not be quite so explosive , and controversial merely for the sake of Controversy… which i Understand is the Reasoning behind some styles, being deliberately inflammatory…

    instead, look at the reactions and Comments to my stuff, I know you have…you are the Comments Editor after all..you know i don’t get as many Comments, but also that my Threads tend to be a bit more Civil, and that some real Communication occurs…even amongst folks who completely disagree with me or each other… but somethign opens up in the course of the conversations…

    ah…what does it matter?

    as i said, no harm, no foul, no mad, no bad…

    the Policy is as it is, and i have been a grateful Guest in Eric and Phillip’s “house”… and i have NO desire for any kind of *special treatment*

    thus the End of my little Experiment, a heartfelt Thanks to all involved, from yer gonzo

    time fer me ta take a Walk

    nuff said?



  • Gonzo, I took an art class once where the instructor sat and read a descriptive passage of a house from a book.

    We were then told to draw in detail what we thought it looked like.

    25 students drew 25 different houses. No matter how hard you try to put your thoughts into words, there will always be those that inadvertantly or intentionally misinterpret them… just look at what damage has been done putting varied interpretations of the Bible.

    Recently I tried a lame attmept of sticking up for chritopher rose and it was misinterpreted as not only an attack on him but on Blogcritics’ policiy itself, which it wasn’t, but try to convince others who pur words in my mouth of that.

    I feel your frustration my friend, I honestly do.

    I won’t give up if you don’t


  • ah Jet…thanks fer trying ta goad me into something…

    i do Appreciate it

    but, what are my choices?

    to abandon the Way i express myself, and the Integrity of my own Thought in order to Conform?

    rail against the Policy, and try to have an Exception made in my case?

    neither of those are acceptable under my own basic Principles

    if i change my *style* than it is no longer *gonzo marx* talking to folks…i might as well throw away the tag, use my real name and join the millions of others out there

    not a bad thing, in and of itself, but definitely NOT the Experiment of my Voice, or the creative Joy i get in the typing…

    and , as i show in the Article itself…definitely NOT the same Experience for the gentle Readers

    there’s no “giving up” on my part…rather it is Understanding and Respecting the decisions of the Editors and the whole Process here at BC…as well as the Fairness to other Writers, such as yourself

    there are Rules in the sandbox, and the kids who don’t follow them find themselves outside looking in

    i’m ok with that, and you should be too!

    so a heartfelt Thanks and Appreciation for where yer coming from, but PLEASE don’t do any silly shit on my account, ok?

    there’s NO Battle to fight here, there’s no *bad guys* here

    just an honest difference of Views, and no room for “outside the Box”


  • Given that you are one of the less dogmatic minds on this site, gonzo, I would have thought, and hoped, your choice was to communicate clearly, cleverly and well rather than stick to your style above all else but that’s just my opinion. Your mileage may vary…

  • /sigh

    Christopher, you misUnderstand…

    go on up and click the link in number 51 and watch Gary Cooper’s bit of monologue…it says quite a bit

    i reserve the Right to do what i do the way i want to do It, or not at all

    BC has EVERY Right to set their Policy as is seen fit, and to enforce that Policy as it sees fit, i totally agree and have NO argument with that

    in number 59 i Ask, “what are my choices?”

    and state why i have chosen to do what i’m doing

    it ain’t a matter of “dogma”, it’s a matter of Principle

    and the Principles of editorial policy, and my own Creative ones are at odds

    now, since i type for my own Joy at the process, and to indulge in the Conversations that result from said Work… why in the Name of whatever you hold dear shoudl i alter one iota from what i do?

    to do so would make me a hypocrite to my own Principles, and stifle my creative output in a way that woudl not be Enjoyable for me to Make…

    and would definitely NOT be what the *gonzo marx* tagline has come to mean in Context

    my choice it to Communicate the Way i see fit, for my own Joy, and the Joy that comes from having my Work read as i intend it…

    hence my use of the Fountainhead clip mentioned earlier…

    i sincerely hope that helps


  • nugget

    How did I miss this??

    from the original article:

    They said the same thing about Charlie Parker and bebop jazz when they first heard it. How stunned were the powers that be when Bird danced around the melody, never quite playing it, but implying it by what he was playing. It took a bit more for the listener to follow, but those who did found it well worth it, and the case can be made that Bird changed how some look at music forever.

    Yes but Parker played bebop because he was a narcissistic attention-whore. There are many men who could do “great” things who opt for obscurity. Bebop is not THAT virtuous of a discovery. It is just another way for a man to express his combined rhythmic/pentatonic sensibilities according to the tunes and variations he has already successfully mimic(ed).

    Furthermore, jazz is VERY limiting. There are so many things not allowed in Jazz. It gets credit for being “free” yet so many forget that MUSIC is free. Bach improvised 4-part Baroque harmony beautifully. How else would he have written 1500+ works if he wasn’t an improviser who simply wrote as he played? (plus he was a reknowned counterpoint improviser on the organ)
    Jazz? eh. It’s quirky and can be fun. But mostly it’s to show off.

    Seeing as writing and jazz are both forms of art, I’m sure you’d agree that the parallels would not stray far off course if your metaphor were extended.

  • nugget…”it’s a fair cop, but Society is to blame”

    now, i can fully understand your bit abuot Bach, and might i Suggest, that he also pushed boundaries “far beyond driven”?

    and do note, i say again here, that i write all in one *take* ….hence the improv…another nod to both jaz(z) and what you speak about when it comes to improv in music Composition

    (( full Disclosure – the whole jaz(z) thing , which i have done twice here..is my own “in” joke…since jaz are my real initials and something i have been called by people at times in my Life))

    is it due to being an “attention-whore” and “narcissistic”

    to an extent…anyone who Writes/types/speaks/sing/plays/performs for an Audience has some streak of such within them

    after all, those who engage in such Activity think they have something worth Expressing…and some Pride in HOW they express it

    watch the clip in #51… the parallel is pretty decent…

    hope that helps, and thanks nugget, for stopping by


  • nugget

    is it due to being an “attention-whore” and “narcissistic”

    to an extent…anyone who Writes/types/speaks/sing/plays/performs for an Audience has some streak of such within them

    no doubt.

    But, we can’t stop there. There are a slew of philosophies as to how one should “deal” with his pride/narcissism.

    You link the Fountainhead court scene. I must say, that I disagree with that humanistic garble with every inch of my puny soul. It’s arrogant crap. You can only believe that lunacy if you do not believe that God exists. Pure and simple. You either believe that man should serve God and his demands that we be servants to each other or that man should serve himself. There are no in-betweens.

    It is my opinion that at all costs we should bury our pride. And only when the time is right, when we MUST open the flood gates for survival sake, only then is it necessary and virtuous to parade our aptitude, whatever level of talent that may be. This philosophy, in my experience, always yields the most humble, enjoyable, shared, and energetic performances. (interestingly, it is what stirs up the MOST envy in those seeking glory for all the immoral reasons) It keeps one very nervous, but if he does his homework, his humility and embarassment will only serve the audience’s favor ten-fold.

    Likewise, if you play or write something consistently, measuring variations and “creating” as you go to get a reaction out of others, I believe your means slowly chip away at your ends. (using some of your lingo here, forgive me.) You cannot force creation. Creation happens by a man cursed. A cursed man loves and hates his gift. He tries to hide it. He wants to fit in. He rarely sets himself apart. He is embarassed of it because it makes him different. You cannot abruptly create a template for “creativity” itself. Paradoxically, he wants to be heard. he has truth and feels obliged to spit it out somewhere. This is when my prescribed measured and humble approach is in order.

  • gonzo marx

    nugget sez…
    *You either believe that man should serve God and his demands that we be servants to each other or that man should serve himself.*

    and now nugget gets all Metaphysical, and here i was just talking about the integrity of an Individual’s work, and the Pride in Craft that comes from doing what you want they way you want to do it…

    nugget sez…
    *It is my opinion that at all costs we should bury our pride.*

    now i’m all for burying Hubris, but pride? especially pride in your Craft/Work?

    sorry, i just can’t go with that.. taking Pride in a job well done is not only perfectly Natural, but also help to generate a higher degree of Workmanship in performing the task… doing it Right for the sake of doing so is a very real Foundation for nto only self-esteem…but is the striving Force behind all Innovation and problem solving

    nugget also talks about “seeking glory” as opposed to self satisfaction in doing what an Individual thinks is Important… seeking glory for it’s own sake is a sign of Hubris..an unHealthy condition, as opposed to deserved Pride in accomplishment

    the bit that bloggles my tiny little Mind is when nugget sez…
    *You cannot force creation. Creation happens by a man cursed. A cursed man loves and hates his gift. He tries to hide it. He wants to fit in. He rarely sets himself apart. He is embarassed of it because it makes him different.*

    i don’t know who you are talking about…but i know some find Creation like giving birth…a painful process …my wife is a perfect example, it’s almost painful to watch her Work…

    but let me point out the fallacy here for many… not all love and hate…some just love, some just hate…some walk away form whatever Gift they have, others embrace it fully and make it the focus of their Life

    some actually Enjoy being “different”, and walking apart

    some have NO desire to “fit in”, but Recognize and revel in being Individuals… they know there is a *herd* but would rather walk their own Way

    nugget also sez…
    *Likewise, if you play or write something consistently, measuring variations and “creating” as you go to get a reaction out of others, I believe your means slowly chip away at your ends.*

    i think that one was aimed at me, and i just wanted to Correct…in my case, i don’t adjust or create for others
    ..i do it for my own Enjoyment, and refine it as part of my Pride in Craft
    i *speak out* the Way i do, because it is the Way i think suits what i have to say…and i think the Way i *say* it is Important for many reasons…a lot of which we have covered in this Thread…

    a lot of the differences here seem to be coming from a difference of Viewpoints…

    nugget appears to postulate that conformity and servitude are the place of Man

    i think that the Individual striving to adhere to their own Principles is key….

    here’s what 3 Wise Guys from the great White North have to say on the subject of Freewill

    18 years after it was Composed, and it still stands up solidly

    and so, to you nugget… thanks for taking the time and effort to share your Thoughts, i DO appreciate where they come from, even if i don’t Agree with much of it

    the Choice still comes down to compromise the integrity of a chosen methodology, or discontinue and remain true to Principles

    since the entire BC experience is voluntary, and done by the Writers for whatever purpose the Writer pursues… i just can’t comprehend any possible Reason to compromise my Principles or sacrifice the Integrity of my own creative Efforts

    nuff said….?



  • Nite Hacker

    Just curious about which Iron Horse bbs are you referring to? Were you an Atari 8-bit user at one time? If so, are you referring to the Atari 8-bit Iron Horse BBS?

  • jaz

    ok… i figure this is the best place to put this

    since setting *gonzo* aside, i’ve stayed away…come back trying differing names/styles to see what fits, and what would not only satisfy Principle, but also my own satisfaction coupled with the addictive need to type stuff to solidify thoughts as well as the innate compulsion to debunk bullshit

    so…i’ll just toss aside facades and put my real initials up for a name and see what happens, and how it *feels*

    there goes anonymity, any detectives can easily take all the clues and find my home addy and phone number if they try hard enough

    but i’ll not “go quietly…”, disgust with some things should not be an excuse for non-participation… took me a bit to come to terms with that…but there you go

    “there is no turning back , now that you’ve woken up the Demon, in me”Disturbed

    the Tao of D’oh.

  • troll

    I’m with you jaz…just have to treat some characters more circumspectly

  • ok..screed incoming…to whom it may Amuse…

    lordy, has it been almost a year since i typed out this Article? guess so…

    much on the personal front has occurred, involving my own health..and spending this last year at home on disability, to having surgery not too long ago…nothing has helped, really..and still no doctor/specialist can tell me WHY it’s happening,no kind of prognosis or diagnosis…just seems like something i’ll have to live with

    so, will be getting a release to go back to work this month, more painkiller prescriptions and see how it goes…the 3/4 pay from disability has helped, but not kept up with expenses plus medical bills accrued after insurance pays it’s share

    c’est la vie, eh?

    but that isn’t really what i wanted to *talk* about…

    it’s about Writing, about how i both miss and loathe the idea of doing it again…how i have possibly reconciled my addle pated self into trying to make Articles conform more to “traditional” formatting in order to have a medium to rant from that might actually get read by some breathing people…

    about making my meatspace friends shut the fuck up about it, and keep those i know in virtual space from pinging my e-mail box bitching that i have not given them something to chew on and chuckle over

    about scratching that itch inside my head and vomiting words onto a screen

    about railing at some of the shitstorm i see, that very few talk about, and living up to the Ideal that i should try and do something, anything to make it a little better, or at least shine the Light onto the bullshit when possible in the Hope of getting at least one other person *see* it and take umbrage

    about using the one legal Weapon available, Words, to defend what i hold precious against the venal pigfuckers who run rampant and most times unopposed

    about time i woke up screaming?

    not sure…but i AM thinking about it,and have spent the last few days actually looking at BC again…dragging up a lot of the olde hate and discontent within me…media Headlines goading me

    about making this incessant craving to type it out stop, perhaps

    Mark once said to me , “the Poet and the Writer in you are fighting it out…” – i’ve never considered myself either…but maybe i do have that monkey on my back and just never accepted it

    won’t promise anything, especially since many times that i had thought my Mind was made up about some things, circumstances have shown me something different, and good counsel from good Friends said something else

    so , out has come *gonzo marx*, for better or for worse…in what manner and how much so…i really don’t know yet

    but i think it might be time to find out


  • Awright! I’m sorry you haven’t recovered physically…I’m in the same boat with nowhere near the pain you have to endure.

    But we need you back writing. I’ll e-mail you…today’s one of my bad days…can barely type. Or I’ll call.

    Take care.

  • SonnyD

    gonzo: If you ever find a solution to the back pain problems let me know. I took so much Advil for so many years that my heart started doing a lot of really weird things and I had to stop. It never really helped that much anyway.

    “the Poet and the Writer in you are fighting it out…” I love it. Have you ever tried writing fiction? That’s not a monkey on your back, it’s your muse telling you to write something.

  • first..it ain’t my back, it’s my guts..try spending 72 hours every 10-20 days standing up, in such pain that even after 1500 mg of Vicodin doesn’t dull it….so bad that you shatter your own teeth clenching your jaw and don’t notice until days after wards (2 teeth and one cap left)… for about 2 years now, the last one out on disability

    but i digress…

    for fiction…well, got something working…about 10,000 words into it, but outlines and notes a’plenty…underscore between my first and last name at the hotmail place and when chapter one is ready i’ll send it to ya for amusement…JuJu knows i doubt anyone would ever pay for my drivel

    my Muse, eh? wish the silly bitch would make up her Mind then…too many things popping around inside my skull

    the Tao of D’oh


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    My oh my. And I thought I was in trouble. May you have a full recovery from whatever it is that is wrenching your guts, my friend.

    The Muse…

    Ah yes, the jealous Mistress who demands your mind and leaves your body bereft of energy. When I work on my articles in front of this machine, my wife complains she is a widow. When I discuss things with you, she complains she is left out of the loop… Reading you again reminded me of the Muse and why so many hate her…

    Welcome back…

  • thanks Ruvy..much Appreciated from you and Sonny and Mark

    i don’t finally come clean about some problems i’ve been going through to elicit sympathy, but to try and clarify why i have been a bit…cranky, at times

    as for this Muse business..i dunno, either she should speak up, or shut the fuck up, imo..this muttering stuff all over the map is frustrating at best

    but i digress….

    the Tao of D’oh