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Every Vote Should be Counted, but Franken Votes Count Twice

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The ridiculousness of the Minnesota Senatorial election between Al Franken and Norm Coleman has reached its height, and the Wall Street Journal has been doing an excellent job of chronicling the details of how a close election can be stolen.

The final twist, which helped push Franken from being down by a few hundred votes to being ahead by a similar margin, was the decision by Democratic Secretary of State Mark Ritchie and the other members of the Canvassing Board which is overseeing the recounts, to count a number of duplicate ballots — in addition to the regular ballots filed by those same voters. In Minnesota, when a ballot is damaged, election officials are required to make a duplicate of it, mark the duplicate clearly as a duplicate, and store it separately from the regular ballots. Apparently, the duplicates in 25 precincts were not clearly marked, and in response to demands from the Franken campaign, the Canvassing Board decided to throw reasonable caution and responsibility to the wind and treat those duplicates as additional ballots to be counted.

You might wonder how we know those ballots are duplicates. Simple. In each of those precincts, after the votes were recounted, there were more ballots counted than there were voters who signed in at the polls. There were enough more to gain Franken an additional 80 to 100 votes. The only way for that to happen is for some voters to have voted twice. This poor decision is just one of many choices made by the Canvassing Board about which ballots to reject and which ones to accept which seem to scream bias, if not on the part of the entire board, then certainly on the part of Secretary Ritchie, who is guiding the process. Rules are being applied inconsistently and haphazardly, but apparently always to the benefit of Franken.

Throughout the process the Canvassing Board has seemed powerless to challenge Ritchie's partisan directions. Despite board member and State Supreme Court Justice G. Barry Anderson's having admitted publicly that "very likely there was a double counting," earlier this week, the Canvassing Board certified Franken as the winner by 225 votes, far fewer than the number of overcounts, resulting in a court challenge from Coleman. The final settlement of the election will be in the hands of a three-judge panel selected by former Minnesota Viking and current State Supreme Court Justice Alan "Purple People Eater" Page, who has a background in the Democratic party and seems to be sympathetic to Franken.

This shameful saga should be resolved next week, but it raises the question of why there wasn't a point in this process at which someone in the Democratic party woke up and realized that no matter how great their ambition and greed for power, they do themselves no favors by corrupting and debasing the process for which their party itself was named? After all of this, with the extensive attention focused on the Franken campaign's dirty tricks, there is no way that Franken will be taken seriously if he is seated. He will be a pariah and a liability and held up as an object lesson to others, rather like a Macbeth for the modern era. Franken is supposed to be a comedian, but making a joke of the democratic process really isn't all that funny.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Brunelleschi

    Blah blah blah.

    Bush’s first election shows us how much the righties care about fair elections.

    I like Franken so much I don’t care if he gets in by tactics. He’s going to be worth listening too in the Senate, and hopefully entertaining.

    Wouldn’t it be great if he gets the floor on the Senate and starts doing Stuart Smalley? “I hope I make a good speech today. I didn’t like my last speech very much and I had to look in the mirror. I said ‘self, you are a Senator. You can make a good speech today. You are good enough, you are smart enough and doggone it people like you..”

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The election was a tie. Hold a runoff already.

  • Brunelleschi

    Boring.

    Put the comedian in!

  • zingzing

    hey, dave–i’d bet that both sides used dirty tactics, probably illegal. what’s your bet?

  • Derek

    Dave, why are you using the old throwing shit and hoping it sticks act? You haven’t followed the race and just listen to what Rush “I go to South America for pills and 14 year olds” Limbaugh has to say and deem it to be true. There’s no evidence of double votes, and if you had a clue, the machines wouldn’t count the original ballots, so they used copied ballots to count them. So how could a machine that wouldn’t read the ballot somehow read it? Makes no sense.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Actually, Zing, on reading about the election I was surprised to find how little the Coleman campaign had done, including not really pursuing legitimate opportunities to challenge Franken’s skullduggery. I think that pretty early on they realized that the Canvassing Board and the various election officials had already decided they were going to find a way to hand the election to Franken, so the Coleman folks just decided to let them do their worst so they’d have lots of juicy stuff to go to court with.

    Dave

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Dave,

    If I’m not mistaken, Ritchie is the ONLY Democrat on the canvassing board. Are we to assume that he has the muscle to force the other members to his will? As Zing suggests, there has been crap flung by both camps in this recount.

    “…there is no way that Franken will be taken seriously if he is seated. He will be a pariah and a liability and held up as an object lesson to others, rather like a Macbeth for the modern era.”

    That I believe is more your hope than what will actually happen. If seated, it will be up to Franken as to how effectively he functions within the Senate. If he fucks up or is found to be inept, then he will not be embraced by his fellow Senators. However, should he prove to be effective, I doubt seriously that the Senate will see him as “a pariah and a liability.”

    B

  • zingzing

    dave, they’re politicians. their job is to get elected. with all the accusations that have gone each direction, do you really think coleman is a) clean enough and b) stupid enough NOT to have tried his hardest?

    from what i can tell, coleman is a fairly moderate republican (or else he wouldn’t get elected in minnesota), and franken is… a comedian. a smart comedian, but a comedian none-the-less. of course, i’d like to see a dem in office, but i wouldn’t be upset if coleman ends up winning.

    still, i’m not (acting) naive enough to say that franken is the only one playing the game here.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Baritone,

    If he fucks up or is found to be inept, then he will not be embraced by his fellow Senators.

    Thanks for making it all clear. Now I realize that I have been living in an alternative universe. How can I get to that better world of which you speak?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’ll just repeat what I’ve said many times before. No matter which of these jokers eventually gets the Senate seat, Minnesotans lose.

    Coleman is a rich asshole who pals around with his friends in the mob.

    Franken is an arrogant asshole who pals around with his friends in the media.

    Both of these pricks are rolling in dough.

    Neither give a damn about people who have to get up at 3 in the morning to go to second rate, low paying jobs at Target because there is nothing else in the state of Minnesota. Put simply, the Twin Cities are mildly bad off while outstate is getting screwed.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And before anybody asks why I’m commenting on Minnesota politics all the way from my roost in the Samarian mountains, I’ll remind you I speak Minnesotan like a native, lived there for two decades, and was active in the DFL.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    If the WSJ is doing such a great job reporting, why have you linked to an opinion piece, whose author’s name I can’t find on the page, rather than a news article?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “If I’m not mistaken, Ritchie is the ONLY Democrat on the canvassing board.”

    You are right. That’s why Dave didn’t mention anyone else’s party affiliation. Why Republican appointees would “find a way to hand the election to Franken” is rather a ridiculous notion. The Coleman folks might also have realized they don’t have a legal leg to stand on.

  • Tref

    Sour grapes! Face it, chap, nobody cares about the neocons anymore. Bye bye! Go, Franken, go!

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    I was under the impression that those were “provisional” ballots, which were filed if the voter registered in time to vote, but not soon enough to get his name on the voter roles.

    In that case the voter is given a paper ballot to fill out and after it’s later checked as authentic, it’s counted, but usually only if the election is close, which this one was.

    A simple double check of the voter’s information would prove it was a valid vote and not a double-counted vote as you seem to be rather lamely implying Dave, and is relatively easy to verify against the roles of people who already voted.

    As evidenced by the previous comments Dave, your bias is showing… better tuck it in before it gets you in trouble, and/or damages your credibility.

    ———

    Here in Ohio, the GOP has discovered that all those union voters that couldn’t get out of their jobs in the past to vote, were voting early on their days off this time. Which is what cost the GOP Ohio.

    In an effort to fix this, the GOP dominated Ohio congress is trying to shorten or do away all together with early voting…

    Gee, I wonder why?

  • Clavos

    He’s going to be worth listening too in the Senate, and hopefully entertaining.

    I doubt it. He certainly isn’t entertaining on TV. His Stuart Smalley character is puerile and asinine, and definitely not funny — or even mildly entertaining.

    Franken’s an obnoxious asshole.

  • zingzing

    oh, clavos. i doubt he’d be so obnoxious if he was republican. who’s that conservative comedian? um… larry the cable guy? please don’t tell me you prefer label the cable guy to franken. or please, tell me that you do.

    and anytime a southern republican says “asinine,” i just start reading the rest of your comment in hank hill’s voice. now that’s good meat, bobby.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Larry the Cable Guy does politics??! I thought the conservative humor flag-bearer was the equally (as Franken) unfunny Dennis Miller.

    Comedy and partisan politics just don’t sit well together. You’re alienating half your potential audience before you even start if you go down that road.

    Comedy is irreverent and functions best when its targets aren’t restricted to a single ideology. That’s what makes Leno, Letterman, Stewart and Colbert funny: although their personal politics are well-known, they’re just as likely to make fun of Democrats as they are of Republicans.

    Even Ben Elton* realized that and dropped the socialist red flag-waving from his routine long ago. He instantly became ten times funnier.

    * For our American readers: Elton is a British stand-up comedian, comedy writer and author. He’s probably best-known in the US as the co-creator of Blackadder.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Your hero Ronald Reagan was one of the most putrid actors, and yet he went on to be gov of California and then President of the United States

    Can you people more hypocrites than you already have proven here?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Putrid?

    Reagan was certainly no Clark Gable, but he wasn’t abysmally bad – just ordinary.

    As an actor I’d say he was probably better than Schwarzenegger but worse than Fred Thompson.

    (Isn’t it odd how all the prominent politicians who used to be actors in supposedly left-wing Hollywood seem to be Republicans?)

  • Clavos

    zing,

    These are ALL obnoxious AND/or low class and unfunny — larry the cable guy, franken, dennis miller, gilbert gottfried (especially!), rodney dangerfield, groucho marx, chris rock, don rickles, phyllis diller, andy kaufman, jim carrey, andrew dice clay, Sam kinison, bill maher, roseanne barr, etc., etc. — ad infinitum.

    good comedians — bob hope, bill cosby, robin williams, bob newhart, jonathan winters, jon stewart (most of the time), johnny carson, alan king, david steinberg, george burns, jackie gleason, cheech & chong, lily tomlin, pat paulsen, the smothers brothers, mel brooks, carl reiner, dana carvey, jerry lewis, etc., etc.

    As you can see, their politics has little to do with it for me. More than anything I like them to be funny, without being mean-spirited, obnoxious or low-rent.

    Too many contemporary ones are assholes.

  • Clavos

    …a southern republican…

    I’m not a southern anything — I’m barely American, I was born in Mexico and carry dual cirtizenship, and I live in Miami, which (proudly) isn’t part of the United States, culturally.

    And I’m a RINO, and that only because the state of Florida forces me to declare either Republican or Democrat or be disenfranchised.

  • zingzing

    bah. bobby.

    groucho marx and andy kaufman aren’t funny?

    and robin williams and dana carvey are?

    there is no accounting for personal taste.

  • Clavos

    No, andy kaufman was definitely not funny in my book; I thought his act was stupid.

    Groucho was funny, but decidedly low class, and I didn’t (and don’t) like slapstick, so I found the marx brothers act boring.

  • zingzing

    i always liked groucho for his verbal wit. the slapstick was pretty good, but it’s groucho’s quick mouth that’s the keeper. and he was just low class, he was absolutely vulgar.

    and kaufman, not funny? stupid? you do know that was the joke, right? he was a marvelous thinker. he went somewhere no one had gone before in comedy, and they can’t go back there again without merely ripping him off. he’s an original.

  • Clavos

    you do know that was the joke, right?

    Of course I do, zing. But, IMO kaufman didn’t pull it off, he just sounded…well…dumb — not funny.

  • Cindy D

    i loved andy…

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “(Isn’t it odd how all the prominent politicians who used to be actors in supposedly left-wing Hollywood seem to be Republicans?)”

    How could you forget Sonny Bono, other than with years of repression?

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    You guys are comparing Groucho in the movies to Groucho in “You bet your life”.

    There’s no real comparison.

    By the way, good job of completely obscuring the point I was making about if Ronnie could do it, than Franken could too.

    Not to mention completely ignoring 15.

    You know, sometimes I wonder why I bother here anymore.

    I almost miss JOM

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    There’s no evidence of double votes,

    Except for the hundreds more votes than there were voters and the fact that there were duplicate ballots and they were counted. Oh, and the fact that a Supreme Court Justice on the Canvassing Board acknowledges that there were double votes. No, aside from that there’s no evidence at all.

    and if you had a clue, the machines wouldn’t count the original ballots, so they used copied ballots to count them. So how could a machine that wouldn’t read the ballot somehow read it?

    If you had a clue you’d know that the recounts in Minnesota are being done by HAND, not by machine, which is why this type of fraud is possible.

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Dave, provisional ballots aren’t counted as votes at the time of tabulation, only if the tally is close, then they are counted…

    so of course there’s going to be a difference.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    If the WSJ is doing such a great job reporting, why have you linked to an opinion piece, whose author’s name I can’t find on the page, rather than a news article?

    Because it’s the best and most comprehensive article on the subject and because the WSJ has been providing ongoing coverage of the problems in Minnesota, so it is informed by all of that. The same info is available in lots of short news stories from local papers and TV stations, but none of them gather as much info together in one place as the WSJ article.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Jet. These aren’t provisional ballots. Where did you get that idea? These are duplicate ballots.

    A provisional ballot is filed if the voting status of the voter is unclear. It is the only ballot he gets.

    A duplicate ballot is created if a voters ballot won’t scan properly. Once that is done they keep both the original and the duplicate, but are supposed to count only one. The problem here is that poll workers didn’t mark the duplicates as duplicates so that when they did the hand count they counted both.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    Maybe you can get the supreme court to intervene?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I’m happy to just let Dave be outraged. He wears it so well.

    As to the more important issue: that of who are good and bad comedians, Clav, I agree with you on most counts excepting Groucho, Maher, and Lewis. Jerry Lewis??? I thought only the French were tuned into his, uh, brilliance. Maher’s comedy is very calculated, and he has a rather huge ego, but, he does make some good and often funny observations.

    In his prime I thought Robin Williams was perhaps the most outrageously funny comedian ever. He’s not so sharp now as he once was, but I did love his “golf” routine he did a few years ago on an HBO special. If you haven’t seen it, check it out on YouTube.

    I rather like Lewis Black. He’s not brilliant, but he makes funny observations. He is definitely partisan.

    Who are we forgetting? Jerry Seinfeld! Again, at his best he was very funny. He appeared on Letterman recently, and he seems to have lost his edge. His TV show was great, pretty much throughout. I think most people either loved it or hated it.

    Shelley Berman. I loved Shelley Berman’s recordings back in the 60s. He’s still around and working. I don’t think he does anymore stand up, but he had a recurring role as a judge on “Boston Legal.”

    Funniest woman? I’d have to say Whoopie. She is funny in her stand up performances. I sometimes like Kathy Griffin, but she becomes annoying after a while. I especially don’t like her on the New Years Eve shows on CNN with Anderson Cooper. She was for the most part, obnoxious.

    Who else we got?

    Oh, and RR was perhaps not awful, but he was never very good – not even average.

    B

  • Cindy D

    I vote for Whoopie, B. She’s my favorite.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “Funniest woman?”

    That’s easy. Kathleen Madigan.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    When Dave writes a story about election fraud, the Democrats are always the villains and the Republicans are always as pure as the driven Minnesota snow. Amusing, but ludicrously inaccurate.

    Dr. D has the most sensible take on this particular election — it’s just too close to call accurately. But the same was true in Florida in 2000, and the ultimate answer will be the same, with the parties reversed: the process has run its course, a winner has been certified. Suck it up and stop whining.

    And definitely lose the bad habit of calling other people crooks reflexively, if they are Democratic politicians who have won a closely contested election. It’s a lie, and it gets both sides exactly nowhere.

  • Clavos

    And definitely lose the bad habit of calling other people crooks reflexively, if they are Democratic politicians who have won a closely contested election. It’s a lie, and it gets both sides exactly nowhere.

    And besides, they’re ALL crooks…

  • Brunelleschi

    Funniest of all time- Steve Martin, “Let’s Get Small.”

    :)

    Second funniest, Dave N fired up over politicians doing what they do best… (OK, maybe not second funniest,,)

  • bliffle

    Joan Rivers. She was on NPR this morning and she’s as wry as ever. She said her daughter cried when she told daughter she wasn’t adopted. “It could break a mothers heart”.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Agree with Steve Martin.

    Not so much into Ms. Rivers.

    B

  • Cindy D

    Steve Martin! Yes! My favorite.

  • zingzing

    i was getting along really well this woman, and she invited me back to her apartment.

    that woman had the best pussy ever.

    what? oh, you people! you’re so… get your mind out of the gutter. every time, it’s sex, sex, sex. i was talking about her cat! her cat!

    gosh.

    that cat was the best fuck i ever had.

    –steve martin, and it’s better when he does it, of course.

  • Clavos

    I like cats.

    They taste like chicken…

    ta-dum

  • http://www.savoheleta.com Savo

    Sounds like 2000, when Bush stole the elections while the time it’s taking them to count the votes looks more like Zimbabwe’s last cooked elections in March 2008.

  • Brunelleschi

    Savo- Exactly.

    If a presidential election can get stolen like it was in 2000 and history decides to ignore it, I don’t even want to hear it about Minnesota!

    It seems that in every election, more and more irregularities are coming out. Elections are not perfect and never have been.

  • Brunelleschi

    Cindy- I met the sweetie I took to the high school prom because I had memorized Martin’s “Cruel Shoes” routine and I repeated it at a party and it made her laugh.. :)

    “Anna knew she had to have a new pair of shoes today….”

  • Cindy D

    Blood (gack).

    “I like them.” She crawled out of the store.

  • Brunelleschi

    This one is a bit long, but funny and a true story-

    When “Let’s Get Small” came out, we were so smitten with it that sound bites got worked into the language at work!

    I was a mechanic at a motorcycle shop. Our product line included a lot of little 2-stroke scooters that burned oil in the gas and their huge, quiet exhausts would gum up so much they would hardly run. When one of these came in, the mechanic’s would smile and say “Let’s Get Small!!”

    Then one of us would take off the pipe, grab the shop welding torch, and go out back on the porch and start a fire in the pipe. This would create a huge cloud sometimes and you could get a good fire going as well. It was fun. The customers would walk around back and see this giant supercharged Hookah and say “what are you doing?”

    “I’m gettin small, man!”

    This totally made customers happy since it fixed their problem.

    The fix even made in on the work orders. “R&R Pipe. Get Small…$..”

  • Cindy D

    lol. That is very cool :-)

    I’ve got a solution to every problem. Overpopulation?

    That’s easy. Death penalty for parking violations.

  • Cindy D

    My two favorites though:

    He wanted her to sing from her diaphragm.

    That could take years to learn how to do.

    and,

    Those French. They have a different word for everything!

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Martin on Farrah Fawcett:

    “Boy oh boy, I am so mad at Farrah Fawcett-Majors. She is so conceited. She has never called me once And after the hours I’ve spent holding up her poster with one hand! Geez!”

    B

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle


    If a presidential election can get stolen like it was in 2000 and history decides to ignore it, I don’t even want to hear it about Minnesota!

    Except that the election in 2000 didn’t get stolen. It took the state legislature and the Supreme Court, but the vote of the people was protected.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    (wonders how Dave works with his wacky mailbox and whether all my corrections will have to be public)

    wrong date, Saturday was january 10th I have 9th,

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Dave and his revisionist history.

    B

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Cindy, I don’t have any recent email from you. Do you have a new article?

    As for ‘revisionist’ history – if the facts don’t agree with the popular version of history then sometimes it’s a good idea to revise.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    I can’t e-mail you cuz your e-mail rejects it.

    Yes, news article.

    I pended it.

  • Cindy D

    Revisionist history? (looks around to see who you are talking to)

    correction on the date in the 1st to last para of the article. I wrote:

    Saturday, January 9
    but,
    Saturday was January 10.

  • Cindy D

    Oh it was B. i c

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    Holy crow. I just looked at idjitwars. I went to James Randi’s Amazing Meeting in Las Vegas about, oh, 4-5? years ago.

    Met Penn and Teller. Teller= nice. Penn = dickhead.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Just a quick second here to point out the Big Lie that is repeatedly espoused here among other places as it has been for years, now used to justify Franken et al clearly and really inarguably absolutely trying to steal an election.

    No, George Bush did NOT at all in any way “steal” the 2000 election. He got more votes than Gore in Florida, therefore he won. There was no skullduggery, no double counting ballots. The dreaded Republican secretary of state Harris did nothing to put a thumb on the scale. She just recorded the votes as reported to her by the mostly Democrat dominated local county machinery, and certified the election results.

    The pretty much inarguably true story was that Gore’s people tried every trick in the book to steal the election, despite not quite having enough votes to do it. That the other guy beat you in a very close election does not necessarily mean that he cheated.

    Whereas, Franken didn’t get quite as many votes as Coleman, so Ritchie and his other criminal cronies just made some up, several times and ways as necessary to get the job done. And don’t forget the 133 votes that he decided to count that they can’t actually physically produce – on the claim that they supposedly had them election night. They’re around here somewhere, honest.

    The crap that Ritchie and his co-horts have done sure looks like something in the range of election tampering. There’s not much way of reasonably interpreting these shenanigans as a good faith counting of ballots.

  • Cannonshop

    Hey, it worked in Washington State, why shouldn’t it work in Minnesota?

  • Brunelleschi

    Al-

    Incorrect. Journalist Greg Palast has more than enough proof that the Bushies had a computer company purge voter rolls. It wasn’t double-counting.

    When people got to the polling place-surprise-their name had been taken off. Who was targeted? Basically black neighborhoods, the last place you would find college republicans playing basketball.

  • Brunelleschi

    Dave-

    Your choice of words in the two examples reveals the bias you try and hide (badly).

    If you are trying to be an objective commentator, you don’t say “stolen” in the case of Minnesota and then use rhetoric like “the vote of the people was protected” in the case of Florida.

    That makes it sound like you are looking for a job writing copy for the GOP website. (Or Iraqi Information Minister)

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brunelleschi- Purging voter rolls of apparently bad data is not cheating. Trying to STOP voter fraud is NOT trying to steal an election, but just to keep it honest.

    Now, getting into the weeds with that stuff, you can say that inevitably some handful of people got struck from the voter roles inappropriately. I remember hearing reports of a few people there at the time who had their names struck from the roles mistakenly because they had the same names as ineligible felons.

    But that’s not trying to cheat, that’s going to be the inevitable error in any system involving millions of people. And even those whose names had been struck had rights to challenge this, cast provisional ballots and such.

    But the main point was that the Republicans wanted to purge voter roles of ineligible felons and ex-felons. So your best argument there is that the Republicans “stole” the election by using due diligence to assure than ineligible felons didn’t get to vote.

    Would you like to argue that Bush “stole” the election by keeping a couple thousand ineligible Florida inmates from voting?

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    If you are trying to be an objective commentator, you don’t say “stolen” in the case of Minnesota and then use rhetoric like “the vote of the people was protected” in the case of Florida.

    Do you see the header on this piece? It says “opinion” so it isn’t supposed to necessarily be objective. I can’t speak for you, but I get pissed off and very unobjective when I see our elections being stolen. Similarly it pisses me off when so many people believe a blatant lie about the Florida election in 2000.

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    In your opinion Dave… only in your opinion

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ach…

    Florida 2000 was a tie and should have been run off without Nader. Minnesota Senate 2008 is a tie and should be run off without Barkley.

    Whatever you do, you’re going to end up with a Senator at least half the voters didn’t want. Under the circumstances, I don’t think it makes much difference who it is.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Doc, it does when the Senate is going to be instrumental in getting the Obama economic fixes we need badly without Republican “just because they can” interferene.

    …in my opinion

  • Brunelleschi

    Dave-Your bias is so corny it really is PR level.

    Al-At least you try harder.

    Both of you are saying one election was just fine, the other isn’t-for political preference reasons.

    It’s obvious elections are not perfect and never have been.

  • bliffle

    One can hardly blame the dems for being partisan about the Franken/Coleman election when the reps were so ultra partisan in 2000. Gore won the majority of national votes and may well have won Florida if the Florida process had been allowed to run its course. But SCOTUS stepped in and interrupted the FL process with a very partisan looking decision, using a couple of lame excuses, like protecting GWBs equal rights under the 14th, and expediting the result to spare the POTUS embarrassment, neither of which hold up well. This SCOTUS has never been a fan of the 14th anyhow (too dangerous to large institutions) and they waited an awful long time to expedite. But they did have 7 of 9 supremes in their debt.

    And the most aggressive partisans in 2000 were the team of lawyers assembled by James Baker. When the reps finally called him he executed with his usual astuteness.

    I have no idea what’s going on in the MN election and nothing I’ve read here has enlightened me.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Bush stole the election in Florida. (Period) It is also likely that he stole it in Ohio in both 2000 and 2004. Republican supporters cannot fathom and could never admit that their kin would be party to any election skullduggery. Republican political operatives have proven to be as adept at election fraud and political dirty tricks as the worst in history. Many took their cues from the Nixon machine and have honed their craft ever since.

    The machinations of the Karl Rove led Republican election thugs succeeded in disenfranchising thousands of voters in Florida, Ohio and elsewhere in 2000 and 2004. They attempted the same crap last November to no avail because they could not muster enough steam to overcome the Obama juggernaut because the majority of voters were fed up with Republican lies and ineptitude.

    The Republicans should have lost in 2000 and 2004. They prevailed only because they won the cheating wars.

    B

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Not only that, but Grossly Wicked Bush is well known to associate with thespians — some of whom have been observed stealing the limelight — and demented elderly parachutists. The man has no shame!

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    There’s something called “evidence”, Baritone. And it just isn’t there and what there is doesn’t support your repetition of the popular delusion.

    Dave

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Bliffle sez “But SCOTUS stepped in and interrupted the FL process with a very partisan looking decision, using a couple of lame excuses, like protecting GWBs equal rights under the 14th”

    You can SAY that it was partisan – and there’s no way to 100% say it wasn’t simply because it involved a decision over a partisan election. But on the MERITS, it was absolutely not a partisan point. Also, note that Bush v Gore was a 7-2 decision, which included two of the four Democrat appointed justices.

    And the point was not that they were protecting the 14th Ammendment rights of GWB, but of the voters of Florida who voted for him. The vote went for Bush in Florida on election night, then again when they were recounted. Letting the obviously partisan Democrats of the FL Supreme Court keep making up new rules and taking it on themselves to extend dates and just make up crap as they go along after a couple or three bites of the apple – well, that’s disregarding the will of the Bush voters, who were more numerous in Florida 2000.

    It’s some kind of one man, one vote thing.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Democrats steal a Governorship in Washington state in 2004: The mass media yawns.

    Democrats steal a Senate seat in Minnesota in 2008: The mass media shrugs.

    Al Gore fails to steal the Presidency in 2000: ZOMG BUSHITLER STOLE THE ELECTION!!!1!1!

    An unwritten rule of baseball is that a tie goes to the runner. Apparently an unwritten rule of American elections is that a (virtual) tie should always go to the Democrat. Only when ACORN can’t register enough dead bodies and illegal aliens to vote to make it close will Democrats reluctantly concede defeat (while whispering about Diebold and Halliburton conspiracy theories, of course).

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    BTW ACORN is a strawman. Talk about evidence. There is no evidence, nor even any charges that ACORN’s efforts resulted in one fraudulent vote.

    Certainly, if you read all the conservative distillation of what happened in those elections, the evidence they cite discounts the fact that Gore would have won in Florida had the recount had not been stopped by the court.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    From PBS:

    “In the first full study of Florida’s ballots since the election ended, The Miami Herald and USA Today reported George W. Bush would have widened his 537-vote victory to a 1,665-vote margin if the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court would have been allowed to continue, using standards that would have allowed even faintly dimpled “undervotes” — ballots the voter has noticeably indented but had not punched all the way through — to be counted.”

    And: The Complete Guide to ACORN Voter Fraud

    Facts are stubborn things, amiright?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Facts are stubborn things, amiright?

    Yes, RJ, aren’t they?

    DAMN that pesky liberal PBS – claiming that Gore would have won!

    Oh, wait…

    However –

    Pajamas Media, RJ? Seriously?

    [snort]…

  • Baronius

    RJ – Perfect. It’s assumed that more people are Democrats, so if the Republicans win, it’s due to the people failing to vote or having their votes uncounted. We *know* that if we keep counting, eventually the good Democrats will win. And since middle- and lower-income Republicans vote against their interests, we’re doing them a favor by not putting as much emphasis on counting their votes.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Baronius, re #81

    True, so very true. Properly seen, it is an act of kindness for which we should all be grateful. And, of course, as soon as we all recognize that “corrupt Democrat” is an oxymoron, while “corrupt Republican” is a redundancy, the better off we will all be.

    Dan(Miller)

  • bliffle

    Regardless of what one would have liked for the 2000 FL outcome, or what that outcome actually was, it represents a change in the conduct of national elections. Someplace along the line it changed from a rather spirited jousting match into a violent legal brassknuckles alley fight. This was exacerbated by the extreme partisan position that Bush took post-election in spite of his narrow margin. One would think that a close election would lead to a modest administration, but GWB was quite partisan.

    So this was a big watershed in election conduct. More is permitted during and after the polling, and the stakes are much higher.

    If the dems didn’t take this to heart and employ the same standards they’d be fools.

    So it certainly seems that the 2008 Franken election is the child of the 2000 Bush election.

    We can expect many more of these children in the future.

    The good news is that it may finally lead to better election methods. This is guaranteed to bring up a great fight as we will, at last, have to make explicit what our voting standards are.

  • Baronius

    Florida 2000 represented a sea change in that the Republicans finally fought back. After decades of voter fraud and questionable counts, someone took a stand. It used to be considered more noble to lose than to contest a close election. See Maryland’s Sauerbrey in 1994, and Missouri’s Ashcroft in 2000. Bush called the Democrats’ bluff, and won the fight at an ugly cost.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    There’s no need to use the loaded word “stolen.” Both Florida in 2000 and Minnesota in 2008 are, as Doc D has pointed out several times, basically statistical ties. There are enough questionable ballots and procedures on both sides to swing the result in either direction. Our Republican friends just conveniently ignore the ones that don’t match their worldview.

    To categorically state, as Dave does, that all the questionable stuff is on the Democratic side just demonstrates his stubborn bias.

    I used to get infuriated by his propaganda posing as “facts.” Now I just laugh.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Handyguy,

    Our Republican and Democratic Party friends just conveniently ignore the ones that don’t match their worldview.

    There. Fixed it for ya.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Handy, it’s only partisan when you don’t agree with it. When I write it I’m just telling the truth. In this case the Coleman campaign made minimal efforts to dispute the count, and the Franken campaign pulled out all the stops.

    This isn’t because Coleman is a better person or Republicans aren’t as greedy for power as Democrats, but because as the actual winner in the original count, Coleman had no reason to look for a way to win, and once Franken’s lawyers (same guys who stole the Washington gubernatorial election, btw) got going, the Coleman campaign decided its best shot of straightening the whole mess out was in the courts.

    Dave

  • http://whalertly.blogspot.com Robert M. Barga

    TO start, 2000 was not stolen. Looking at the electorial college laws in Florida, one notices that they needed to vote the way that they did. Bush won, fair and square, so drop it

    At this point, Franken is winning in Minn, and there is no hard evidence that there was any bad-faith actions taken. We must accept him, as refusing the properly elected senator infringes upon the state’s rights

  • Baronius

    Dave, is that really the case? I recall linking to the Minneapolis newspaper’s website, and you and I chatting about the blatant attempts to thwart voter intent on both sides. Coleman has no claim on the higher ground, except for the fact that he probably won the election. Franken’s people just did a better job corrupting the system.

  • http://booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    “a rather spirited jousting match into a violent legal brassknuckles alley fight”

    I assume you are kidding? Do you really think that any major election is ever the goodie-goodie, be-a-good-sport-and-shake-hands-at-the-finish, sort of match the media pretends it should be?

    Politics is the oldest profession. It is dirty, vicious, back-stabbing, power-oriented, expedient and most politicos and their supporters would cheerfully drown a bag of kittens and walk away whistling in order to win re-election.

    Crack open some nespapers from the turn of the century and just take a gander at the double-dealing and mud-slinging, a good deal of it much worse than what goes on today. Indeed, the conversation and coverage of 2008 was shockingly tame by previous generations standards – no brickbats or fighting in the streets, minimal garbage (physical garbage) tossed….

    As for the fact that politics is a dirty business, I’m reminded of this quote:

    Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
    Captain Renault: I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
    [croupier hands Renault a pile of money]
    Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
    Captain Renault: Oh, thank you very much.

  • BOTTLCAPS

    Unfortunately Mr Coleman`s campaign/recount/legal excuse staff has only CLAIMED there were double counted ballots.He offered no proof to the courts in his original challenge and as such, his claims were dismissed. If Mr. Coleman proceeds with his challenge based on these sames claim, he will again lose. Furthermore his claim that absentee ballots were unjustifiably dismissed by precincts will also lose, as these ballots were discounted by precinct canvassers under current Minn.law. This has nothing to do with Mr. Franken adding extra votes, or “stealing” the election. Mr Coleman will lose by 250 votes and it will be the same as losing by 50,000 votes. He will still lose the popular vote, slim as it is.

    Maybe Mr. Franken has better lawyers, burtmost likely he has better evidence: more votes

    Cheers
    BC

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    BC, the court decision you’re referring to was from before the final hand recount when Coleman challenged the recount itself on the basis that the ballots would be double counted. It was dismissed because it hasn’t happened yet. Now he’s filing suit based on the double counts having actually happened.

    The double counts aren’t enough alone to win him back the election, but they aren’t all he’s basing his suit on.

    BTW, today Franken tried to get the governor and secretary of state to set aside Minnesota law and seat him preemptively and was denied. The recount lawsuit will probably go to trial in about two weeks.

    Dave

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    I’m fairly sure that I can prove you completely wrong when it comes to votes being counted twice…because I know what I’ve seen and I also note that you posted NO reference showing that any one person’s vote was counted twice.

    Please post your reference(s) so we can have a proper discussion.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Glenn, one of the members of the canvassing board said it and he’s a supreme court judge. Does that carry no weight with you?

    Let’s see what evidence the Coleman campaign brings out. Once ballots are entered into evidence there ought to be copies available on smokinggun.com.

    But even so, this is one of those classic situations where all the circumstantial evidence says it’s so, but it may be impossible to prove, because the duplicate ballots may be impossible to identify if they weren’t even marked. The perfect crime.

    Dave

  • http://whalertly.blogspot.com Robert M. Barga

    Saying “likely” =/=saying “there was”

    There might be one double count, which makes it likely. You are saying that this likely means that there were MANY double counts, which is highly UNLIKELY

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Without drawing a conclusion about the validity of specific challenges — something neither myself nor the all-knowing, all-seeing Mr. Nalle is qualified to do — it looks like both sides did their share of back-and-forth maneuvering:

    from Politico, Dec. 19:
    The updated count doesn’t include the thousands of challenges that were withdrawn by both campaigns — ballots which could change the results yet again. Franken withdrew more challenges than Coleman, which would net Coleman votes when they’re added to the count on Monday.

    Franken’s campaign, however, is optimistic that it will hold the lead when all the votes are counted. So far, it has had more success with its challenges: Coleman added only 36 votes after his 852 challenges (4 percent success rate), while Franken gained 70 votes from his 469 challenges (15 percent success rate).

    from Real Clear Politics, Jan 6:
    Franken made up the deficit over seven tortuous weeks of ballot-sifting in part by prevailing on challenges that both campaigns brought to thousands of ballots. He also did better than Coleman when election officials opened and counted more than 900 absentee ballots that had erroneously been disqualified on Election Day.

    Coleman’s lawyers have argued that some ballots were mishandled and others were wrongly excluded from the recount, giving Franken an unfair advantage. The final blow came earlier Monday, when the Minnesota Supreme Court denied Coleman’s petition to add hundreds more disqualified absentee ballots from Republican-leaning areas to the count.

  • Clavos

    As I’ve said many times before, they’re ALL clowns, buffoons and crooks…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    But Handy, one only has to analyze the challenges in the right way for it to be obvious that 100% of The Right Rev. Coleman’s challenges were noble efforts to have genuine Republican ballots counted, whilst each and every one of Franken’s was a cynical attempt to have thousands of McDonald’s napkins with ‘Al Franken for King’ scribbled hastily on them in ballpoint pen accepted as legitimate.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    You’re right, Doc. Us Dems are just rotten to the core. I keep forgetting. Luckily Dave is here to remind us, or we might actually get away with something.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Glad to provide that service. But how could you be anything but rotten when admitting membership to a party whose power is built on the exploitation and oppression of the working class?

    Dave

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Maybe you really believe that. More likely, it’s just more rhetoric and propaganda. And a waste of breath, ink, and electrons.

  • Clavos

    Everybody exploits someone else.

    Both of you — Republicans and Democrats, think your guys are the white hats and the others are the shitheads.

    They (politicians) are all shitheads; if they weren’t they’d go work in real jobs — jobs that really contribute to the betterment of humanity, instead of leeching off the people.

    ALL OF THEM ARE LEECHES.

    ALL OF THEM — EVEN (or especially) THE MESSIAH.

    The politicians make people like Bernie Madoff look like choirboys.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Yeah, Madoff is fucking Robin Hood – robbing from the sorta rich and giving it to the very rich.

    Dave’s mantra: “But how could you be anything but rotten when admitting membership to a party whose power is built on the exploitation and oppression of the working class?”

    He does in fact believe it. When all else fails he essentially falls in line with the hate spewing likes of Coulter, Limbaugh and Hannity. All Dems are evil doers with their collective jackboots crushing the necks of the poor, deluded workers of the world.

    The blue collar delusion stems from their failure to see that it is the Reps and the right in general who have worked hard over the past 8 years and more to steal every nickel and dime they could from those workers, but, nevertheless, all done with the proletariat’s best interests at heart.

    It is those who fight the good fight under the pure white banner of unadulterated capitalism, through the prism of political conservatism, who are the staunch and true American patriots.

    Like the Indy businessman, Marcus Schrenker, who came under investigation for fraud after his businesses tanked (surely through no fault of his own – you know, owing to his white hat and all,) who skipped town flying his small plane down to Florida, setting it on auto-pilot and bailing out, apparently attempting to fake his own death, presumably to avoid prosecution, allowing his plane to fly until it ran out of fuel, crashing he knew nor apparently cared not where. ( I know, that’s some run-on sentence.)

    The above may be appropos of nothing, but it seems to serve as just another chapter in the ongoing soap opera of unregulated investor fraud promulgated primarily by god fearing, right wing, conservative Republicans.

    B

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Bari, Maddoff is a prominent Democrat. In fact, many of the largest corporate frauds in recent years have been promulgated by business men who are from the political left.

    No sane Republican supports corporate fraud and abuse. If you’re for capitalism then what could be worse than to see that system abused and corrupted?

    It’s pure delusion to think that taking away jobs and opportunity and making people dependent on the state is anything but an organized program to enslave the lower classes and make them into political pawns of the political elite who pander to them.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Clavos,

    >ALL OF THEM ARE LEECHES. ALL OF THEM — EVEN (or especially) THE MESSIAH. The politicians make people like Bernie Madoff look like choirboys.

    Stop insulting choirboys.

    That little bastard Madoff didn’t just rip off a bunch of rich people who no longer can afford yachts – he cause charity after charity to close down – and now, when Jews need to open their wallets even wider to help fellow Jews, they are inclined to shut them. He should be hung by his balls – he and all those who stole along with him.

  • zingzing

    dave: “If you’re for capitalism then what could be worse than to see that system abused and corrupted?”

    ha! oh, my. i think i’m actually having a heart attack. or is this an orgasm? oh, it’s a laugh. i don’t know my self anymore. dave has warped reality.

    dave: “No sane Republican supports corporate fraud and abuse.”

    and madoff represents “sane” “democrat” “supporters?” obviously, he was fooling a lot of (probably “you”) people.

    dave: “It’s pure delusion to think that taking away jobs and opportunity and making people dependent on the state is anything but an organized program to enslave the lower classes and make them into political pawns of the political elite who pander to them.”

    so why do all you republican business owners do that?

    come on, dave. you stopped fooling people so long ago. you’re such a tool.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    It’s also a very arrogant and condescending attitude, although perhaps not unexpected from a self professed albeit unsubstantiated elitist.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Mr. Rose should be used to his “it is, because I said it is; and for no other reason” attitude by now?

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Zing, who am I trying to fool? And for that matter, what am I trying to fool them with? I’m just telling the truth as I always have. I realize it’s a truth you don’t like to hear, but tough.

    Dave

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I am used to it, Jet, but that is a long way from accepting it…

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    In your opinion Dave… in your opinion… This has been a recorded announcement! :)

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Considering the GOPs preprogrammed voting machines, perhaps this piece should’ve been titled “Franken accidentally wins election!!!”

  • zingzing

    dave, you’re so full of shit. businessmen, not trying to manipulate the system? are you crazy? you must be batshit insane if you think that businessmen don’t take everything they can. are you serious? that’s their BUSINESS! that’s what they do. that’s how they make money. they manipulate and maneuver, and the ones that are good at it get away with it.

    what do you think this is? fairy land?

    dave, you can’t even ACT this dumb. come on. have some respect.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave,

    (#104) “No sane Republican supports corporate fraud and abuse. If you’re for capitalism then what could be worse than to see that system abused and corrupted?”

    Point 1: There are fewer and fewer left (it IS a form of insanity)
    Point 2: All the mediocre ones – probably upwards of 90 percent: EASY MONEY

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave,

    Which isn’t to say I like Franken. He’s a sleazebag and great discredit to Minnesota and his party. But then again, that’s more common nowadays than not.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Zing, there is a difference between manipulating the system and victimizing people. You manipulate the system because the system is in the way of doing business properly. That’s the fault of the government which put the system there in the first place. But for the most part, gaming the system as has to be done, benefits consumers, investors and employees just as much as it does the business owner. The mere fact that we have a system which sets itself up as inimical to the interests of everyone from worker to owner and all inbetween ought to show you where the real problem is.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave/Zing,

    The following is an excerpt from The Economist, “What Next,” Sept 18 editorial:

    “Regulation is necessary, and much must now be done to improve the laws of finance. But it must be the right regulation: an end to America’s fragmented system of oversight; more transparency; capital requirements that lean against booms and flex with busts; supervision of giants like AIG, that are too big and too interconnected to fail; accounting that values risks better and that everyone accepts; clearing houses and exchanges to make derivatives safer and less opaque.

    All that would count as progress. But naïve faith in regulators’ powers creates ruinous false security. Financiers know more than regulators and their voices carry more weight in a boom. Banks can exploit the regulations’ inevitable blind spots: assets hidden off their balance sheets, or insurance (such as that provided by AIG) which enables them to profit by sliding out of the capital requirements the regulators set. It is no accident that both schemes were at the heart of the crisis.”

    My comment:

    “Notice that they’re almost glib about it – “financiers know more than regulators” (and can therefore cheat) – sweeping it under the carpet as though an afterthought, for in the closing paragraph they go on extolling the virtues of the capitalist system and all the gains it had produced: ‘those gains are not about to be wiped out,’ they’re quick to reassure us.”

    What world are living in, Dave? For how long are you going to keep on attributing noble and honorable motives to the worst elements of mankind? Cheats will be cheats and thieves will be thieves, and no amount of your whitewashing is going to change that. So either you’re suffering from a major delusion or, worse, engage in the lowest kind of apologia. I don’t believe the latter; you must have more integrity than that. But I wonder, what basis you have to keep on extolling the goodness of human nature. Is that a product of Sunday school education, as part of the general program to keep people look the other way? It’s just beyond me. The Communists and Socialists, too, ignore the basic fact that we’re rotten to the core: that’s why they keep on dreaming and thinking utopias in total disregard of the basic facts of life. But I guess the defenders of unchecked and unmitigated “free” market systems do the same – i.e., ignoring the basic facts of life – because it suits their purposes. Let’s do some reality check here and make it part of the equation! To argue principles in total disregard of the facts just don’t make any sense to me. There’s nothing to be gained.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Do you remember that the MN state Supreme Court rejected the Coleman campaign’s petition to count several hundred additional absentee ballots? Was that part of some Democratic conspiracy? How about looking at the makeup of the MN Supreme Court?

    The seven-member MN Supreme Court has five Republican-appointed justices, one Independent justice, and another who was elected to the court without party identification.

    Okay, so if you’re right that the Dems have stolen the election, then how could an obviously right-leaning MN Supreme Court still back up the Dems?

    Perhaps it would help if you better understood Coleman’s faulty logic. Coleman claims that multiple precincts had “more votes than voters,” a potential irregularity if we understand that as being more ballots than people who signed in on the register. But Coleman has another definition: When the votes tallied in the recount were more than were counted on Election Night, with no reference to what was on the voter register. The whole point of a recount is to find votes that the machines failed to pick up at first.

    Face it, Dave – Franken won fair and square…and any irregularities that may have occurred certainly PALE in comparison to the election fraud and voter suppression the Republicans have been committing for the past decade…and I think you know better than to challenge me on that claim.

  • Baronius

    Blogcritics policy – No personal attacks on anyone but Dave are allowed.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Baronius,

    Do you think we’re ganging up on him?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Baronius, I’ve personally deleted countless personal attacks on Dave, and I’m sure Chris has too. He seems to attract them.

    Admittedly most of them were by Pablo, but still…! ;-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Chris had better do it. He’s the comments’ editor.

  • Mark Eden

    So is Dreadful…something of a daring duo.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Doc,

    #18: You forgot Lenny Bruce!

  • Clavos

    The Terrible Twosome…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    We need them, Clavos. Otherwise, we’d have to take Dave with straight face.

  • Mark Eden

    …making them the Pivotal Pair

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    To paraphrase M*A*S*H; Dave invites people to insult him-it’d be rude not to comply (:^b~~~~

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    He must get a rise out of it!

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    That could result in a yeast infection

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m sure Dave absolutely loves it when someone lets rip at him. It then gives him carte blanche to unleash his own poisonous gems.

    Of course the handbags thrown by both sides will get removed from the field as soon as Chris or I see them, but for the few minutes/hours they’re still up, I’m sure Dave enjoys that little frisson of intellectual delight!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Jet,

    I had to do a quick check in the Wikepedia. They’re supposed to be vaginal, or do I did I get it wrong. So what are you saying?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    “frisson of intellectual delight” – a hell of a phrase!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Why am I reminded of the following specification of the charge in a special court martial:

    In that private first class John Smith did, on or about 14 November 1978, tell Captain Oscar Brand to go intercourse himself, to the detriment of good order and discipline.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Now was it the Captain servicing himself that was to the detriment of good order and discipline, or was it the advice given to him by Pfc. Smith?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    This is crazy!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Doc,

    I think the latter. However, often a good attorney can help one to “get off.” The Sergeant Major in the JAG office to which I was assigned back in 1967 was kind enough to lead me to a civilian court case in which a slander action was dismissed. The complaint was that the defendant had said to the plaintiff, “One of you sons of bitches stole my jewelry.” The judge held that the slander complaint had to fail, since the plaintiff had failed to allege his own canine ancestry and hence to show that the remark had been directed at him.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger,

    I blame reading Catch-22 and watching M*A*S*H.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Great book and TV series!

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    He IS in a Catch-22!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger,

    Assuming that the reference is to me, I think you have me confused with Major Major. Pardon me while I exit through the window.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Doc –

    One of my main goals in life is straight from Yo-Yo Yossarian in Catch-22: “I’m going to live forever if it kills me!”

    That, and concerning your observation, “I’m sure Dave absolutely loves it when someone lets rip at him. It then gives him carte blanche to unleash his own poisonous gems.”

    I think you might find that’s why Obama decided not to engage in the mudslinging contest during the election – by not doing so, he took away his opponents’ excuses for attacking him. This doesn’t always work (see ‘Kerry’), but it worked for Obama…and for Reagan too, IIRC.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    What world are living in, Dave? For how long are you going to keep on attributing noble and honorable motives to the worst elements of mankind?

    If the businessmen and politicians who run our country are the “worst elements of mankind” then we are well and truly fucked. But the truth is that they are not. They are just like the rest of us. For the most part they have ideals, principles and dreams. Sometimes they make compromises and mistakes and a small number of them fall off the cliff into total corruption – just like all of the rest of us. It’s just more dramatic and more noticed when it happens at the top because it impacts other people.

    Your mistake here is in thinking that my defense of businessmen in general is the same as defending the corrupt ones. That’s like saying that because I think Muslims are mostly good people I condone terrorism. It’s ridiculous, simplistic thinking, not to mention self-serving and deceptive.

    Cheats will be cheats and thieves will be thieves, and no amount of your whitewashing is going to change that. So either you’re suffering from a major delusion or, worse, engage in the lowest kind of apologia.

    When have I made excuses for the Maddoffs of the world? Give me one example. To the contrary, you and others are making blanket generalizations about entire classes of people, condemning them unfairly based on the actions of a small minority.

    I don’t believe the latter; you must have more integrity than that. But I wonder, what basis you have to keep on extolling the goodness of human nature. Is that a product of Sunday school education, as part of the general program to keep people look the other way? It’s just beyond me.

    Human nature isn’t good or bad. Most humans are motivated by self-interest, but they realize that their interests can be achieved most effectively when you follow certain standards of conduct. Even if you’d like to go wild and do whatever you want, you stop out of fear or guilt, or just practicality or sometimes an adherence to abstract concepts of morals and ethics.

    We all behave this way and it all balances out, and when someone steps outside of the boundaries we punish them. That’s called society. But the key thing is that you can’t judge society as a whole or large groups of people based on the behavior of the worst examples, you have to judge them based on those who conform to the conventions of society.

    The Communists and Socialists, too, ignore the basic fact that we’re rotten to the core: that’s why they keep on dreaming and thinking utopias in total disregard of the basic facts of life. But I guess the defenders of unchecked and unmitigated “free” market systems do the same – i.e., ignoring the basic facts of life – because it suits their purposes. Let’s do some reality check here and make it part of the equation! To argue principles in total disregard of the facts just don’t make any sense to me. There’s nothing to be gained.

    If you’re going to argue facts, you need to argue ALL the facts, not just worst case scenarios. You seem to have been distracted by what can go wrong and are missing the far larger instances where society works and things go right, and where capitalism works and it’s not exploitative or unnecessarily destructive.

    If you base your society on the worst case scenario your society will be tyrannical. To impose restrictions on the average citizen as if he were a criminal because some citizens are criminals is the definition of an oppressive society.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Do you remember that the MN state Supreme Court rejected the Coleman campaign’s petition to count several hundred additional absentee ballots? Was that part of some Democratic conspiracy? How about looking at the makeup of the MN Supreme Court?

    Yes, I’m aware of that. And I’m aware of the makeup of the court. Are you aware of that the fact that the MNSC rejected one petition does not mean that they will reject others automatically?

    Obviously the Coleman campaign wants to get the best result it can get. But if one of their claims doesn’t prove out, that doesn’t say anything about the merits of their other claims at all.

    Okay, so if you’re right that the Dems have stolen the election, then how could an obviously right-leaning MN Supreme Court still back up the Dems?

    On one issue. The challenges aren’t over yet.

    Perhaps it would help if you better understood Coleman’s faulty logic. Coleman claims that multiple precincts had “more votes than voters,” a potential irregularity if we understand that as being more ballots than people who signed in on the register.

    Which is exactly what happened in 25 precincts.

    But Coleman has another definition: When the votes tallied in the recount were more than were counted on Election Night, with no reference to what was on the voter register. The whole point of a recount is to find votes that the machines failed to pick up at first.

    News reports I’ve read only reference the discrepancy between signed-in voters and votes counted. If Coleman is making a broader claim I’d agree that it has less merit. But once that argument is done away with there’s still the problem of those 25 precincts with more ballots than voters.

    Face it, Dave – Franken won fair and square…and any irregularities that may have occurred certainly PALE in comparison to the election fraud and voter suppression the Republicans have been committing for the past decade…and I think you know better than to challenge me on that claim.

    No point in challenging you. The claim is ridiculous on its face. Instances of documented and proven Republican voter fraud are very rare and what you call ‘vote suppression’ is nothing of the sort. We’ve already been over the errors in the popular assumptions about the 2000 election. Consider this. If it’s the example held up again and again to “prove” republican voter fraud, and if as we have seen demonstrated clearly those claims of fraud are completely baseless, then how much credibility does your more general argument about Republican fraud have? Not much.

    Dave

  • Lumpy

    I think they pick on Dave for the same reason people climb Everest. why waste your efforts on a lesser target?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    This sounds credible to me:

    When voters woke up on Wednesday morning after the election, Senator Norm Coleman led Al Franken by what seemed like a relatively comfortable 725 votes. By Wednesday night, that lead had shrunk to 477. By Thursday night, it was down to 336. By Friday, it was 239. Late Sunday night, the difference had gone down to just 221 — a total change over 4 days of 504 votes.

    Amazingly, this all has occurred even though there hasn’t even yet been a recount. Just local election officials correcting claimed typos in how the numbers were reported. Counties will certify their results today, and their final results will be sent to the secretary of state by Friday. The actual recount won’t even start until November 19.

    Correcting these typos was claimed to add 435 votes to Franken and take 69 votes from Coleman. Corrections were posted in other races, but they were only a fraction of those for the Senate. The Senate gains for Franken were 2.5 times the gain for Obama in the presidential race count, 2.9 times the total gain that Democrats got across all Minnesota congressional races, and 5 times the net loss that Democrats suffered for all state House races.

    Virtually all of Franken’s new votes came from just three out of 4130 precincts, and almost half the gain (246 votes) occurred in one precinct — Two Harbors, a small town north of Duluth along Lake Superior — a heavily Democratic precinct where Obama received 64 percent of the vote. None of the other races had any changes in their vote totals in that precinct.

    To put this change in perspective, that single precinct’s corrections accounted for a significantly larger net swing in votes between the parties than occurred for all the precincts in the entire state for the presidential, congressional, or state house races.

    The two other precincts (Mountain Iron in St. Louis county and Partridge Township in Pine county) accounted for another 100 votes each. The change in each precinct was half as large as the pickup for Obama from the corrections for the entire state.

    The Minneapolis Star Tribune attributed these types of mistakes to “exhausted county officials,” and that indeed might be true, but the sizes of the errors in these three precincts are surprisingly large.

    Indeed, the 504 total new votes for Franken from all the precincts is greater than adding together all the changes for all the precincts in the entire state for the presidential, congressional, and state house races combined (a sum of 482). It was also true that precincts that gave Obama a larger percentage of the vote were statistically more likely to make a correction that helped Franken.

    The recent Washington State 2006 [sic] gubernatorial recount is probably most famous for the discovery of ballots in heavily Democratic areas that had somehow missed being counted the first and even second time around. Minnesota is already copying that, though thus far on a much smaller scale, with 32 absentee ballots being discovered in Democratic Hennepin County after all the votes had already been counted. When those votes are added in, they seemed destined to cut Coleman’s lead further.

    Indeed, it is probably through the discovery of new votes that Franken has his best shot of picking up new votes. Despite the press pushing a possible replay of election judges divining voters’ intentions by looking at “hanging chads” to see if voters meant to punch a hole, that shouldn’t be an issue in Minnesota. The reason is simple: optical scan vote counting machines return ballots to voters if no vote is recorded for a contested race.

    The Associated Press piece with the title “Most Minn. Senate ‘undervotes’ are from Obama turf” misinformed readers about what undervotes really imply. The Minneapolis Star Tribune headline similarly claimed “An analysis of ballots that had a vote for president but no vote for U.S. senator could have recount implications.”

    Voters themselves insert their ballot into the machine that reads and records their votes, and if the machine finds that a vote isn’t recorded, voters can either mark the race that they forgot to mark or didn’t mark clearly. Or if voters “overvoted” and accidentally marked too many candidates, voters can also get a fresh ballot. There should be no role to divine voters’ intentions. If a voter wanted a vote recorded for a particular race, the machine tells him whether his vote in all the races was counted.

    But voters also have the right not to vote in particular races. In this election, 0.4 percent of Minnesotans didn’t want to vote for president. The number for the Senate race was only slightly higher at 0.8 percent. For congressional and state House races, the rates were 3 and 3.5 percent.

    This pattern of fewer people voting in less important elections has been observed as long as people have studied elections. There are always at least a few people who don’t vote for even the most closely contested races at the top of the ballot and fewer people follow and vote for races the farther down the ballot that you go. But this is not evidence of mistakes, quite the contrary.

    With ACORN filing more than 43,000 registration forms this year, 75 percent of all new registrations in the state, Minnesota was facing vote fraud problems even before the election. Even a small percentage of those registrations resulting in fraudulent votes could tip this election.

    To many, it just seems like too much of a coincidence that Minnesota’s one tight race just happens to be the race with the most “corrected” votes by far. But the real travesty will be to start letting election officials divine voter’s intent. If you want to discourage people from voting, election fraud is one sure way of doing it.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    This sounds credible to me:

    Glenn: Okay. So, now, how many — on the night of the election, it was 725 votes between Norm Coleman and Al Franken. Wednesday it had shrunk to 277. Thursday it was down to 236, Friday, 239. By the way, the new number is exactly 206. We go to — is he on the phone? Do we have John Lott on the phone net? No. We apparently lost him.

    Okay. John Lott is a guy who is a number crunch err and he’s a guy who’s been looking at this. You will not believe what is happening now in Minnesota. In Minnesota now they are finding votes in people’s cars. How are they finding votes in people’s cars? Why should we count the ones that were sitting in a car? Correcting typos, they found 435 votes to Al Franken and they took 69 votes from Coleman. They’re not finding any in favor of Coleman, just the other way around and it just becomes more and more odd. John Lott, welcome to the program. John, they have found an awful lot of votes for Al Franken.

    Lott: Yeah. I know. It’s been pretty amazing. I mean, just from a statistical point of view, what’s the probability that this would happen. If you compare the U.S. Senate race there to either the presidential race in Minnesota or all the congressional races or all the state representative races in the entire state there, you have more total changes that have occurred in the U.S. Senate race than the sum of all the other races there that have been there in the state.

    Glenn: So, more people made a mistake than to have us believe?

    Lott: Right. That’s correct in these typos, that’s correct.

    Glenn: The mistake was always for Al Franken or against him when they corrected it, that went for more than all the other errors in every other category in the entire state in every race?

    Lott: That’s right.

    Glenn: Yeah.

    Lott: In particular, I mean, there were three precincts in particular that accounted for almost all of the errors in favor of Franken. I mean, you had a number of precincts, about 40 or so, that had some errors in it, but there were three in particular, one that was just a little bit north of Deluth that accounted for almost half of the errors in favor of Franken, but there were two other counties that — or two other precincts that accounted for about 100 each.

    Glenn: Yeah, but we’re looking at — those are three precincts. There can’t be a lot of precincts. If almost all of them are coming from these three precincts, I mean, what are there, six precincts?

    Lott: That’s 4130 precincts in the state.

    Glenn: Wow. That’s odd, huh? You would think if there was some sort of a problem, it would have been kind of widespread.

    Lott: Right. Well, I mean, just — the one precinct that gave Franken half the votes that he’s picked up, you had more errors in that one precinct than in the entire state for the presidential race or the entire state for all the congressional races or the entire state for all the state representative I was 0 races.

    Glenn: Well the Minnesota Star Tribune says the mistakes in that one particular precinct was because the county officials were exhausted. So, there must have been mistakes in all of the races, not just the Senate race there in that one precinct.

    Lott: Well, I can tell a little bit of facetiousness in your question, the way you ask it. It was the only race that they had a mistake. None of the other races in that precincts did they have a mistake in how it was entered.

    Glenn: Were they only sleepy while punching in votes for Al Franken and wide awake on every other race?

    Lott: I don’t know. I mean, you would have to — it seems a little hard to believe. I’m just saying that if you look at this across the state, it’s just surprising that you see these errors being so large in these few precincts that are just overwhelming — even all the — sum of the errors across the entire rest of the state and why would it only occur in the one race where it was cross and not just the type of errors in every race where it wasn’t close is the real hard thing to figure out.

    Glenn: By the way, John Lott is the author of Freedomonics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland. Tell me a little bit about the acorn influence here.

    Lott: Well, acorn obviously across the country has been involved in registering a lot of individuals. The question is how many times they’ve registered a number of those people and in Minnesota there were 43,000 registrations that were entered in. That’s about 75 percent of all the new voters in Minnesota over the last two years. And they’ve accounted — they had a big impact here, particularly when you’re talking about a race where right now you’re talking about a couple hundred votes that may be separating the two candidates, even a small amount of fraud there, and Minnesota doesn’t have this — even has kind of the most minimal rules in terms of ID requirements. One can go and the first time that you vote, you can go and show a utility bill, for example, which are very easy to forge. All you have to do is have paper that looks like, you know, from the utility company and have a computer and a printer and it’s easy enough to make up an ID.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    This sounds credible to me:

    What is the point of having a hand recount of ballots in the Minnesota Senate race if the Democrat Secretary of State is going to use the election night totals in precincts where it will benefit Democrat Al Franken?

    Either the hand recount produces a better, more accurate count, or there was no point to the state spending roughly $100,000 to conduct the hand recount in the first place.

    But that is exactly what the George Soros-supported Secretary of State has agreed to do in the case of a Dinkytown precinct near the University of Minnesota. The hand recount of the liberal precinct produced 133 fewer ballots than the original count on election night and, more important, 46 fewer votes for Franken.

    So he’s proposing to defer to the election night total over the recount tally.

    There are no “missing” ballots in Dinkytown. Ballots were run through the voting machines twice on election night. Last week, Minneapolis elections director Cindy Reichert explained they already knew for a fact that 129 ballots had been run through machines twice on election night, which pretty closely matched the 133 allegedly “missing” ballots.

    As Reichert said, “There are human errors that are made on Election Day.” According to an article in the Dec. 2, 2008, St. Paul Pioneer Press, Reichert was “confident that that’s what happened” and that “we have all the ballot envelopes here.”

    But after relentless badgering by the Franken campaign, now Reichert isn’t so sure anymore. So the new plan is for Minneapolis to submit both the election night total from Dinkytown — which gives Franken an extra 46 votes — and the meticulous hand recount total, which does not, and allow the canvassing board to decide which to use.

    The 129 ballots that Reichert said were run through the machines twice on election night could end up being counted twice.

    In all other precincts, the initial tallies from election night are treated as highly unreliable rough approximations of the actual vote, while the results from the hand recount are regarded as the absolute truth.

    Only in the Dinkytown precinct, where the election night total gave Franken an additional 46 votes, does the state treat the hand recount as an error-prone joke compared to the highly accurate election night vote.

    The Soros-supported Secretary of State Mark Ritchie explains that there is “precedent” for counting election night totals rather than the recount totals. If so, how about using the election night tally from some of the precincts that gave Coleman more votes on election night?

    Highly implausible, post-election “corrections” in just three Democratic precincts — Two Harbors, Mountain Iron and Partridge Township — cost Coleman 446 votes. But I note that Ritchie doesn’t propose deferring to the election night totals there.

    The Minneapolis Star Tribune attributed the 436-vote “correction” in Franken’s favor to “exhausted county officials.” Were they more exhausted in those three precincts than in Dinkytown?

    Either the post-election tally is better than the election night tally or it isn’t. Cherry-picking only those election night results Ritchie likes isn’t an attempt to get an accurate vote-count; it’s an attempt to get a Democrat in the U.S. Senate.

    If Minnesota is going to accept the election night tally from Dinkytown, why not from any of these precincts where Coleman lost votes under far more suspicious circumstances? And why are guys named “Al” always caught trying to steal elections?

    Wholly apart from the outrageous inconsistency of deciding that some election night tallies trump the hand recount and some don’t, Franken’s miraculous acquisition of more than 500 votes from heavily Democratic precincts in post-election “corrections” wasn’t believable on its face — and that’s even accounting for the fact that Franken voters tend to be stupider than average and therefore more likely to fill out their ballots incorrectly.

    Corrections in all other 2008 races combined led to only 482 changes in the entire state of Minnesota. The idea that typo “corrections” in one single contest from only three precincts, out of more than 4,000 precincts, could lead to 436 “corrections” benefiting Franken is manifestly absurd.

    Ritchie’s proposal to accept the election night count from one precinct is a stunning admission that even he doesn’t believe a hand recount is any more accurate than the original election night tally.

    To be sure, endlessly recounting ballots doesn’t yield more accurate results, it just creates different results. There is no reason to think a tabulation is more accurate because it occurred later in time.

    But then why have a recount at all? If the state of Minnesota is going to spend $100,000 and endless man-hours to conduct a meticulous hand recount on the grounds that it is more accurate, the state ought to at least pretend to believe in its own recount.

    Election recounts are never intended to get more accurate results. They are simply opportunities for Democrats to manufacture new votes and steal elections.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    But it’s all good. I’m fine with an inexperienced, hate-filled, profane, unqualified, left-wing clown becoming a US Senator. He can’t be any worse than Teddy Kennedy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    RJ, rather than cut-and-paste the entirety of those three pieces you linked to, either just the link by itself or accompanied by a brief summary would have been just fine.

    For future reference,
    Regards,
    Your friendly assistant comments editor.

    P.S. Remember to close your tags, too.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Wish I’d seen the Lott interview. What he says reminds me of what happened in some of the suspect recounts in Ohio in 2004, where they did recounts and they’d discover hundreds of uncounted votes in a precinct and strangely, in defiance of all statistical probability they’d be 90+% Kerry votes, when statistics would suggest the missed ballots should split in a percentage similar to the other already counted votes.

    Dave

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Instances of documented and proven Republican voter fraud are very rare and what you call ‘vote suppression’ is nothing of the sort.

    You’re kidding, right? You mean you don’t remember how I showed you in no uncertain terms how Republican claims against ACORN were completely and utterly false,

    how Republicans in California HAD committed the same voter registration fraud they had accused ACORN of,

    how the Republican party had CLEARLY engaged in voter suppression – can’t remember offhand what the lists are called, but they are flatly illegal,

    how I debunked nearly EVERY instance of Democratic ‘fraud’ you posted…and THEN showed you that even if your claims were completely true, then the PROVEN voter registration fraud and election fraud committed by the Republicans would have still outnumbered that committed by Democrats by a MINIMUM of a hundred to one…

    …do you not remember all this? Do I need to dig into the archives and find it again? If you insist, then I’ll do that and we can do the deja-vu-all-over-again thing.

    Dave, you’ve seen me admit when I’m wrong – but apparently you don’t realize that there’s two subjects wherein conservatives like yourself are at a distinct disadvantage because almost ALL the facts are against them – Universal Health Care, and voter/voter-registration/election fraud.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    glenn, you seem to have some trouble telling the difference between your assertions and proof.

    You’re kidding, right? You mean you don’t remember how I showed you in no uncertain terms how Republican claims against ACORN were completely and utterly false,

    No, what you showed was that there was not as yet clear evidence of how ACORN is using their generation of bogus registrations to commit fraud, and I agree. Admittedly they are innocent until proven guilty, but that’s all you have. Their actions are still suspect.

    how Republicans in California HAD committed the same voter registration fraud they had accused ACORN of,

    ONE Republican who committed ONE instance of it.

    how the Republican party had CLEARLY engaged in voter suppression – can’t remember offhand what the lists are called, but they are flatly illegal,

    They’re called ‘caging lists’ and they are NOT in fact illegal in most states and definitely not illegal in the states where Republicans have used them.

    how I debunked nearly EVERY instance of Democratic ‘fraud’ you posted…and THEN showed you that even if your claims were completely true, then the PROVEN voter registration fraud and election fraud committed by the Republicans would have still outnumbered that committed by Democrats by a MINIMUM of a hundred to one…

    No, you made some assertions but provided little or no evidence to back them up, as you do consistently. And your claims of Republican election fraud were pure conjecture.

    …do you not remember all this? Do I need to dig into the archives and find it again? If you insist, then I’ll do that and we can do the deja-vu-all-over-again thing.

    Yes, I do remember it. You made some weak claims with nothing to back them up, based largely on fundamental ignorance of the law and how elections work.

    Dave, you’ve seen me admit when I’m wrong – but apparently you don’t realize that there’s two subjects wherein conservatives like yourself are at a distinct disadvantage because almost ALL the facts are against them – Universal Health Care, and voter/voter-registration/election fraud.

    Again, assertions in contradition of the actual facts. Even moreso in the case of universal healthcare where the evidence that it doesn’t work is overwhelming and, frankly, frightening. Have you not heard about the failure of universal healthcare in Massachusetts? 500,000 uncovered, $300 million over budget, citizens being fined for trying to opt out of the system.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    And for the record, Glenn, the ACORN convictions are still pouring in, and I’m not talking about indictments or accusations here, but actual convictions with people going to jail.

    Here’s a new one from St. Louis where 8 ACORN workers plead guilty to voter fraud and went to jail.

    Oh and look, five more ACORN workers off to jail in Washington.

    There are more convictions from all over the country and we’re just starting to see the first indictments from last year’s election.

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Do you realize how tiny the percentage of the electorate results were that ACORN influenced? Are you a damned squirrel obsessed with acorns.

    ACORN will never be influencial enough to sway an election the way the GOP voter vault does and you know it.

    You only seem to squeal like a pig when the results don’t go your way Dave.

    Give it a rest… you’re really getting boring… perhaps a new career in AM talk radio?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Jet – When an election can come down to around 200 votes then even a small percentage makes a difference…

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Okay, Dave.

    By the way, while I’m digging up all the PROOF of what I posted above, could you please educate yourself on the difference between voter fraud and voter REGISTRATION fraud and election fraud? They’re three VERY different things.

    FYI, do you know how many fraudulent votes are cast when voter registration fraud is committed? NONE. NOT A SINGLE VOTE – unless someone shows up claiming to BE that fraudulent name. At THAT point it becomes VOTER FRAUD…and I challenge you to find instances of VOTER FRAUD committed because of voter REGISTRATION fraud.

    To continue, the people whom these felons are defrauding is NOT the American election process…but ACORN, since these guys, like every other person employed by ACORN, needed to show proof that they were ‘earning’ their pay by finding people to register to vote.

    BUT WAS A SINGLE FRAUDULENT VOTE CAST because of them? I don’t see any proof that there were any…but there were THOUSANDS of votes that were nullified because of ILLEGAL caging lists by the Republican party.

    Okay – while I’m looking up the older BC posts, it’s your turn.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    But only when the results don’t go your way?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Why would you bitch if they went your way?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dan Miller, #141:

    No, Dan, I thought we were talking about Dave. Sorry for belated response. Other business mattes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave (#143),

    Thank you for so thorough a response; just got back on the thread.
    I think we may be finally getting somewhere: there’s a lot there to think and talk about. Our metaphysical beliefs & presuppositions, how we view the world in general terms etc., I believe, always determine more concrete articulations in in such matters as political theory and so on. So allow me to take a breather and I’ll be back.

    Roger

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Contrarian sez “could you please educate yourself on the difference between voter fraud and voter REGISTRATION fraud and election fraud? They’re three VERY different things.”

    These are distinctions with very little difference. They are all attempts at the same thing. You’re arguing apparently that voter registration fraud simply doesn’t matter, so the acres of tall trees of that by ACORN just don’t count.

    So you’re presuming that massive documented voter fraud don’t count unless you can absolutely prove they were successful in getting the illegitimate votes counted. But I bet you could find at least a handful that have been caught out of those hundreds of thousands of bogus ACORN registrations around the country – besides every other left wing/Democrat group working the same angles. You don’t see Republicans doing that.

    And again, beyond ACORN there’s little legitimate doubt that the MN Secretary of State has bent over backwards to change and bend rules and make up different ones in different precincts to get Franken elected.

    We’ll see how these shenanigans stand up in court.

  • Cindy D

    Al,

    Does it make sense that a large organization (presumably with a reputation to protect) would intentionally embarq on a campaign to encourage vote fraud that clearly wouldn’t work?

    You think that ACORN is as dumb as other people think your girlfriend S.P. is.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    ACORN doesn’t need to protect its reputation, because the Democrats who arrange for it to be funded with federal funds secretly applaud every illegal voter it registers. The more skullduggery ACORN is involved in the more its supporters love it.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Even if none of the voter registration fraud directly results in fraudulent votes being cast and counted, it still screws things up. Think “Spam attack.” With thousands of fraudulent registration attempts, attention has to be devoted to sifting through many thousands of legitimate registrations to find the illegitimate ones. This can be tedious. In the process, it seems likely that some legitimate registrations are rejected and/or delayed.

    The registration and voting processes are sufficiently screwed up without this added, malicious and unnecessary complication.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Cindy D

    Well, it’s just my opinion that it isn’t malicious.

    But at least your argument makes more sense Dan(Miller).

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Via Channel 8 Las Vegas…

    Russell worked for a company called Voters Outreach of America, along with 300 other people. He says he got into a beef with the company over a pay dispute, and witnessed his bosses ripping up registration forms that had been filed by democrats.

    “They were thrown away in the trash. I grabbed them out,” said Eric Russell. One of those forms belonged to Daren Gray, who was shocked to learn that the re-registration form he filled out was never turned in.

    “I’m pretty mad, upset. I’m still gonna vote,” said Daren Gray. Russell doesn’t know how many democratic registrations were tossed in the trash but guesses the number could be very high since Voters Outreach of America operated in Las Vegas for more than two months.

    The FBI confirms that it is gathering information about the case but stopped short of calling it an investigation, saying it wants to talk to Russell again. Secretary of State Dean Heller issued a statement that his office is also taking a look, trying to figure out what if any laws might have been violated.

    Nevada Democrats came out swinging Wednesday. “Most disturbing is that Voter Outreach of America is being paid by the National Republican Party and we ask how can people have faith in government if a national party is involved in trickery in depriving people the right to vote,” said Clark County Commissioner Yvonne Atkinson Gates.

    The Republican National Committee acknowledges that it hired Voters Outreach of America to register voters, but in a statement said it had zero tolerance for any kind of fraud.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Here's an answer to Dave's rhetoric that's about as "Fair and Balanced" as he is…

    Click here

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy D,

    it isn’t malicious. I have no knowledge of what ACORN’s motivations may have been. However, if it’s explanations are to be credited, then the people who sat around making up the fraudulent registrations can properly be characterized as acting maliciously, even if they were simply trying to make a quick and dishonest buck.

    The ACORN folks may have been too overwhelmed with the magnitude of the task before them to provide adequate supervision; unfortunately, the registration offices were overwhelmed as well.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Cindy D

    Dan(Miller),

    A completely sensible view, imo.

    No stupidity required.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Here’s an answer to Dave’s rhetoric that’s about as “Fair and Balanced” as he is..

    Who claimed I was being fair and balanced? I’m offended by ACORN. They use federal money to underwrite partisan activities. That offends me and I’m certainly biased against them.

    As for Republican hired groups engaging in similar activities, are you surprised? I’m certainly not. ACORN’s success was bound to be emulated. BTW, the Jacoby case has yet to go to trial and in the other case you reference from Nevada in 2004 it appears that no charges were ever filed. It was likely a case of a sour grapes accusation by a fired employee. I’m just as outraged by these instances of fraud, but they are more isolated and not as systematic as what ACORN has been doing.

    What mystifies me about ACORN is how they can produce so many bad registrations and why they allow it to happen. If it’s not intentional then it’s such gross incompetence than that ought to be actionable as well. They’ve produced hundreds of thousands of these bogus registrations. If it’s not intentional, then the only explanation is that they just don’t care. They know that they can just fire their part-time workers and blame them and let them go to jail, so ACORN itself faces no consequences. This also explains why they hire so many convicts and drug addicts.

    If the fraud doesn’t bother you, shouldn’t their exploitation of these workers be a concern? I particularly like how they hired workers at below minimum wage to get petition signatures in support of a living wage bill. And wait, it gets better – the crowning irony is that ACORN workers in Dallas are trying to unionize to keep ACORN from exploiting them further.

    Come on guys, you’ve got to at least laugh at the hypocrisy of it all.

    Dave

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave (and Al Barger) –

    You (and Al Barger) trying REAL hard to ‘prove’ that voter REGISTRATION fraud committed by a SMALL minority of ACORN foot soldiers somehow equates to large-scale voter fraud.

    Al claims in so many words that just because there’s no concrete evidence that the voter REGISTRATION fraud actually resulted in ANY actual voter fraud, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. But if such massive voter fraud DID occur because of a SMALL minority of ACORN’s foot soldiers but there’s NO EVIDENCE, then that would mean that the below-minimum-wage-paid convicts and drug addicts outwitted and outsmarted the police, FBI, county/state/federal election commissions, AND the Republican attack dogs all at once on a NATIONWIDE scale!

    So which is more likely? That such MASSIVE voter fraud DID happen even though there’s NO evidence of such? Or that the below-minimum-wage-paid convicts and drug addicts cared not one whit about getting people to vote fraudulently and were simply filling out forms so they could keep getting money from ACORN?

    It’s either one or the other, Dave and Al – either the below-minimum-wage-paid convicts and drug addicts pulled off the most incredible election scam in human history…or they didn’t. choose!

    (By the way – THIS, sirs, is why our legal tradition requires EVIDENCE of a crime before a case can be brought before the court)

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave and Al –

    That would also mean that the cons and addicts are ALL successfully keeping their collective mouths shut about this VAST conspiracy, too! Don’t forget to explain this one too….

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    As I’ve pointed out before, Glenn, there’s nothing to “choose”. There’s no question that registration fraud took place. Either ACORN deliberately created a situation which would generate fraudulent registrations, or they instructed workers to do it, or they are grossly negligent in who they hire and how they vet their registrations.

    Regardless of their motivations (and they clearly have the motivation to commit fraud), the end result is chaos in the voting system and the opportunity to exploit that chaos to commit fraud. And regardless of whether actual voting fraud took place, voter registration fraud remains a felony and a crime to which they are accessories even if they manage to use their poor workers as scapegoats to create plausible deniability.

    Do you actually think that corrupting the democratic process is a good thing and that ACORN should not be held accountable?

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    What I’m beginning to see Dave, is your transparent claim not to be republican nor democrat, which gives you (so you think) the freedom to critisize both and maintain your alleged fair minded handling of both.

    What it actually is, is a thinly veiled “get out of jail card” for you to critisize almost exclusively the left while claiming not to be allied with the right.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Ever been on an aircraft carrier? That’s up to five thousand young men and women. Most of them are good and trustworthy…but there will ALWAYS be bad apples in the crew. Always, always, ALWAYS. Does this mean that the whole command should be punished for the actions of a few undesirables that he happened to get stuck with?

    Actually, in the military the commanding officer IS often held accountable…but it’s usually NOT that way in the civilian world.

    To further complicate things, the military is held to a MUCH higher standard of conduct than civilians normally are – which is why, given similar populations of young men and women in two separate groups, one military and one civilian, the civilian group will ALMOST always have more troublemakers.

    And on top of all this, if the jobs the civilians are given are ONLY temporary in nature, do NOT receive a decent living wage, and do NOT require technical skills or qualifications, what kind of workers do you really think you’ll get?

    It’s really easy for you and the rest of the conservative world to play armchair general and say ‘they oughta do this or that’…but the REALITY of the matter is FAR different than your right-wing rhetoric makes it seem.

    Actually, it’s not much different from the old generals’ maxim: “Amateurs talk firepower. Professionals talk logistics”. The logistics of what ACORN tries to do on a nationwide scale does not lend itself to attracting the kind of trustworthy individuals one would expect…and given the same set of circumstances and resources, I strongly suspect YOU would not be able to do any better.

    So, um, Dave – the question remains: have you found ANY evidence that the crimes committed by a SMALL minority of ACORN’s workers resulted in ANY votes cast fraudulently? Even ONE vote? Even just ONE?

    After you answer that, perhaps I should start listing the ILLEGAL voter suppression efforts that DID result in thousands of Democratic voters being disenfranchised. It’s nothing I haven’t shown you before….

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Contrarian- Low life dumbasses turning in fraudulent registrations does not require an act of genius. But the local election machinery just gets blown over by the mountain of spam, though a fair amount of it does get caught. Plus, there’s certainly been no big conspiracy to hush up talk. There are plenty of first person accounts of ACORN shenanigans – even before the election.

    ACORN ain’t really working that hard to repress news of the systemic abuses by their employees across the country. They just don’t authorize such shenanigans specifically in writing, and then play-act like they’re shocked and disappointed that there’s fraud going on right in their own house. (And here’s you’re 100K new voter registrations.)

    Jet- You’re being uncivil and uncharitable towards Brother Nalle, which is unfortunate as he’s been one of your biggest boosters offering you encouragement here at BC. It’s worse because you’re just wrong in your accusation of dishonest partisanship.

    Nalle is a conservative or right-winger, broadly. That’s an entirely different point from being a Republican, and it comes out all the time. Note that Nalle did NOT in fact vote for McCain – though I did, since he was attached to my desire to vote for Sister Sarah.

    A conservative will likely more often tend to support Republicans because overall, more Republicans are at least vaguely conservative some of the time. But it’s not like he won’t tear a deserving Republican a new one.

    Also, I’ve seen Nalle heap praise on Barney Frank, for one, to the point where I wanted to choke him my damned self a time or two.

    Then again, you probably would consider ME a partisan Republican hack – even though Sarah in 08 is the only time I’ve ever, ever voted for the Republican.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Al, I don’t need, nor will I accept being chastized like a misbehaving 4-year-old by you or anyone. You, Clavos, Dave and others amaze me at how anyone doing wrong in this world whose even remotely left of center is automatically characterized as one of George Bush’s “evildoers” and yet let any of us point out the EXACT same crime on the right side of the aisle, and they’re charactarized as saints and we’re the fraudulent, stupid, and uninformed “evildoers”

    IT’S LIKE BLAMING EVERY HETEROSEXUAL ON GOD’S EARTH AS JERKS BECAUSE ONE OF YOU GOT DRUNK AND CRASHED YOUR CAR-That’s one thing the right-wing is really good at labeling things and people.

    IN YOUR OPINION I’m wrong
    IN YOUR OPINION I’m rude

    This website is being slowly turned into a right-wing radio show, and any more the only way I can make a valid point without it being shit on or just plain flat out ignored is to go over the top.

    That’s one of the reasons I stay away from this place lately and haven’t published an article for a while in favor of doing my writing on BC’s Forum page, which all of you take every opportunity to ignore or belittle.

    My #167 is just as valid as anything you’ve said here about ACORN-AND YOU KNOW IT, but I’m the rude one for pointing it out?

    There’s only so much listening to you Rush Limbaugh clones that I can take before changing the channel, and sooner or later I’m going to shut the damned radio off and chuck it out the window.

    …which would suit you just fine.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Thanks, you caused me to commit a crime that I hate on this website, so now I feel like a hypocrite.

    What crime?

    If all of you only knew how annoying it is to try to wade through a 1000 word sermon at every other comment. Usually it’s off topic (as my previous one was) off base, or just by some windbag that likes to see his own words in print and has deluded himself into thinking that any of us do more than skim past the 10th paragraph.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Very fair statement, Brother Al,

    None of us want to cast aspersions on Dave’s convictions or integrity. I wonder, however, about your enchantment with Sister Sarah. I grant, it was a clever choice by Sen. McCain to put a woman on the ticket, especially in light of Hillary’s sudden death, and I applauded it, personally, if only on principle. Still, I failed to see the depth.

    Have I missed anything?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Take it easy, Jet. You’ll just have to break through their defenses. The conservatives are ALWAYS on a defense. That’s a given!

  • Lumpy

    Comparing ACORN to the military is an insult to the military as is comparing naval personnel to drug addicts and convicts. Unlike AC0RN the navy does not enlist scumbags and it has discipline and training. ACORN is responsible for thede peoples actiins because it doesn’t make them accountable.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Oh…. well…. that explains it!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Glen, in the military the commanding officer IS often held accountable…but it’s usually NOT that way in the civilian world. I agree. That is unfortunate, because the multiple messes in which we now find ourselves might not have happened or in any event have been less severe had it been otherwise.

    However, I think that the problem of which ACORN is being displayed as an example goes beyond befuddled but benign lack of supervision. It appears to have had a lot to do with the notion that the end justifies the means. ACORN was probably trying to do what it viewed as good, and therefore didn’t see fit to bother with even minimally adequate supervision of the (as you put it in Comment # 172) “below-minimum-wage-paid convicts and drug addicts” whom it hired to do voter registration. Apparently, it viewed getting previously disenfranchised people registered as so important that it didn’t much care whom it hired and whether they did what they were supposed to do. Throwing some of those who got caught under the bus was a poor alternative. The ensuing difficulties for ACORN may well be costing it more time and money than would have more selective hiring and adequate supervision.

    ACORN is, obviously, not unique in this. It is, however, perhaps an instructive example.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Come on guys, you’ve got to at least laugh at the hypocrisy of it all.

    Dave

    Indeed. An excellent valuation of most of the rightist comments on this thread.

    BTW, voter registration is not Acorn’s primary activity. And while they may receive federal grants (most – or all? – entirely legitimate), that’s not their main source of funding.

    But voter registration and federal funding are all Dave et al ever talk about with regard to Acorn.

    Acorn does lots of good work. Not that you should bother to clutter your false and simplistic caricature with…facts. That would spoil all the fun.

    But to meet your silly arguments on their own terms, please tell us which election results were changed as a result of these dire misdeeds.

    None, you say? So what is this all about again, except hot air?

  • Cindy D

    Lumpy,

    Right, the military would never hire anyone but the best folks.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Um, Al…were you aware that in several instances – most notably Nevada – it was NOT the election commission or the Republicans who pointed out the fraudulent registrations. It was ACORN that notified the election commissions of the suspect registrations!

    And what happens? When ACORN pointed them out, the Republicans hopped all over it – “ACORN’s trying to subvert the presidential election!!!!!”

    But the challenge remains: can you point out even ONE fraudulent vote that was cast thanks to that small minority of ACORN’s foot soldiers? EVEN ONE?

    ‘Cause what you’re claiming leaves ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES: Either those scores of under-minimum-wage-paid convicts and drug-addicts fooled the whole doggone country including local, state, and federal law enforcement and are continuing to keep a better code of silence than the Cosa Nostra had…or there’s no conspiracy on ANY level, and NO voter fraud.

    Instead of giving your ASSUMPTION, give EVIDENCE. If you can’t give evidence, then you have no case.

    But if you want some REAL stories of voter fraud, how about this Republican vote-buying scheme in New Mexico?

    Or this database of Republican voter-suppression efforts, including the Michigan foreclosed-homes caging list, and the “Republicans vote on 11/4, Democrats on 11/5″ letters in Virginia?

    Or how about this list of Republican schemes?

    Al, there’s one big difference between thee and me: the facts and the evidence are on my side. All you have…are assumption (unless you can PROVE large-scale voter fraud as a result of what some of ACORN’s foot soldiers did).

    BUT THEN I HAVE TO REMEMBER that it has always been in the best interest of Republicans to suppress votes. The founder of the Heritage Foundation said exactly that before an audience of 15,000 Baptist preachers and Republican notables such as Ronald Reagan.

    So much for the Republican belief in democracy….

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Lumpy –

    I’m retired Navy…and as a former chief master-at-arms and assistant legal officer I can tell you that YES, we DO sometimes enlist scumbags in the Navy, and in every other branch of the military too.

    Ask Dan – his qualifications are much higher than my own, and he’ll tell you the very same thing.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy D,

    There are a few bad apples in the military. However, I am pretty sure that the percentage in the military is a very small fraction of that in, for example, the U.S. Congress. And, members of the House go into “harm’s way” only every two years and of the Senate even less often; unless, of course they get caught red-handed doing something really stupid to which immunity does not attach.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Glen,

    My experiences were much further back in time and shorter than yours. Back in 1967 – 71, there were certainly some scumbags. The social experiment called “McNamara’s One Hundred Thousand” brought in many of them. They were taken, despite failure to meet various minimum standards, so that they could be given an education and become better civilians later. It may have worked sometimes, but in courts martial I saw mainly the cream of the crap.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Cindy D

    Dan(Miller),

    My step-dad was a Korean War vet. My uncle was in Vietnam at 17. Two kind, good men. A good friend was a 20 year Navy veteran. So, it’s not a thing I have against individuals who have been enlisted.

    But…

    Are you familiar with the Zimbardo prison study? I’m not sure how well-known this is, I was a psychology major, so we all knew it.

    Zimbardo conducted a now-famous experiment at Stanford University in 1971, involving students who posed as prisoners and guards. Five days into the experiment, Zimbardo halted the study when the student guards began abusing the prisoners, forcing them to strip naked and simulate sex acts. (quote from link below)

    Zimbardo was hired as an expert witness for the defense of the Abu Ghraib guard Frederick.

    Overview of the Prison Study

    Zimbardo can’t guess why some people participate and some become whistleblowers. But the surprising thing, even from his prison study, is the number of seemingly regular people. And his study was with ordinary college students. And I emphasize seemingly because, to me it takes a defect in society itself to create people who, when put in certain circumstances, become this depraved.

    Despite what Roger will try to tell me. This, is not human nature. To my way of thinking, it is the product of social programming.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle


    You (and Al Barger) trying REAL hard to ‘prove’ that voter REGISTRATION fraud committed by a SMALL minority of ACORN foot soldiers somehow equates to large-scale voter fraud.

    No, Glenn. I have NEVER said this and I have not made any effort to prove it. Not on this thread or any other. I think that it creates the possibility for voter fraud, but the registration frauds are in and of themselves a crime, hence all the ACORN workers cut loose to take the fall for the organization and go to jail.

    Hell, I didn’t even bring ACORN up on this thread. RJ did that and then it was all lefties like you and Baritone ranting about it.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    And on top of all this, if the jobs the civilians are given are ONLY temporary in nature, do NOT receive a decent living wage, and do NOT require technical skills or qualifications, what kind of workers do you really think you’ll get?

    Then why would you continue to hire employees on that basis knowing that they brought you negative press coverage, police and FBI investigations, cost you huge amounts in legal fees, reduced your effectiveness in doing the job you were hired for, and imperiled the democratic process?

    It seems to me that the only logical explanation is that they go out of their way to make sure that their employees are effectively encouraged to commit voter registration fraud – many have commented that it’s the only way to meet their daily quotas so that they get paid.

    So, um, Dave – the question remains: have you found ANY evidence that the crimes committed by a SMALL minority of ACORN’s workers resulted in ANY votes cast fraudulently? Even ONE vote? Even just ONE?

    As I’ve said before, I have never claimed that they produced fraudulent votes, just fraudulent registrations. As I’ve posted before, I believe that the goal is to disrupt the voting process on a gross scale, making it harder for voter registrars to verify voter eligibility.

    After you answer that, perhaps I should start listing the ILLEGAL voter suppression efforts that DID result in thousands of Democratic voters being disenfranchised. It’s nothing I haven’t shown you before….

    And as we’ve gone over before, caging lists are LEGAL in the states where they have been used. No one has ever been arrested much less charged for using them. Plus most of the disenfranchised voters were voting illegally, even if only on a technicality.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    What I’m beginning to see Dave, is your transparent claim not to be republican nor democrat, which gives you (so you think) the freedom to critisize both and maintain your alleged fair minded handling of both.

    Jet, contrary to what Al Barger may believe,
    I have never claimed to be anything but a Republican and former Libertarian who believes in returning the GOP to its libertarian roots.

    I do criticize both political parties and I do try to be fair and impartial, especially when it comes to my editing duties. But I do think that the left has an agenda which is inherently inimical to the values on which our nation was founded.

    What it actually is, is a thinly veiled “get out of jail card” for you to critisize almost exclusively the left while claiming not to be allied with the right.

    Why would I need such a thing? In America we all have the right to criticize whoever we want, and you can judge my criticisms for yourself and take or leave them as you choose.

    Dave

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    But if you want some REAL stories of voter fraud, how about this Republican vote-buying scheme in New Mexico?

    Wow, kind of like what the Democrats did in West Virginia and St. Louis and Michigan and Wisconsin and…need I go on? You really don’t want to get into a penis measuring contest when it comes to vote buying. The Democrats have been doing it nationwide for 170 years.

    Or this database of Republican voter-suppression efforts, including the Michigan foreclosed-homes caging list,

    When you move, regardless of whether it’s because you are foreclosed on, you are required by law to change your voter registration. If you do not you are technically committing voter fraud.

    and the “Republicans vote on 11/4, Democrats on 11/5″ letters in Virginia?

    Let me remind you that I’ve never claimed that Republicans were not guilty of some of these same abuses. The argument that “everybody does it so it’s okay” doesn’t work in grade school and doesn’t work in politics either.

    So much for the Republican belief in democracy….

    Who the HELL ever claimed Republicans believe in democracy? The GOP was founded on the idea that democracy is flawed and dangerous.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    and the “Republicans vote on 11/4, Democrats on 11/5″ letters in Virginia?

    That one was a joke, for which only morons would fall.

    Of course, that would thin considerably the ranks of Democratic voters…

  • REMF(MCH)

    Cindy, Glenn;
    When discussing military matters with Lumpy, keep in mind that he did not serve.

  • zingzing

    “Of course, that would thin considerably the ranks of Democratic voters…”

    who won virginia?

  • Cindy D

    Dan(Miller)

    RE my #191,

    Forgot this bit.

    This is important to consider while trying to imagine how these “bad apples” all ended up together in the same place.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cindy (#191),

    I don’t think my view of human nature is this crude, but there IS “evil” lurking in the heart of everyone – even children (as innocent as they seem to be or we’d like to believe). The world is made up of all kinds of people, good, bad, and indifferent. And a great deal of care and education is needed to overcome our naturally selfish and self-centered proclivities and impulses. So we can’t ignore the fact that human societies (parents, schools, etc) keep on failing great many individuals in this respect. In the entire history of the world, there had never been a society comprised only of saints.
    To throw another curve ball, there are individual or perhaps genetic differences: e.g., the Kain-and-Abel syndrome – the same upbringing producing almost diametrically opposite results. Many works of literature deal with this topic, as I’m certain so do many psychological studies.
    Indeed, even in the best-case scenarios, the road to sainthood is paved with innumerable obstacles, and a very tiny percentage ever make it (and even then, they have to keep on staying vigilant for fear of sliding).

    You may dismiss it at hand, but a good part of Christian theology – not that I necessarily agree with it – is based on some such view of humanity; not to mention, the very concept of prayer, which aside and outside of the religious context, is a powerful psychological mechanism/complex whose main purpose is to make us reflect.

    In every society, there is a need for LAW – to protect some of its members from others; this, also, is based (in part at least) on a similar view of humankind.

    I apologize for this rather long dissertation, but I felt it would be beneficial to bring this up.

    Roger

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cindy,

    Re: above comment, there’s another thing I’d like to add. Our own individual experiences and moments of introspection – if we’re really honest with ourselves – should in almost every case throw in serious doubt our rather naive belief as to our own goodness.
    Coupled with the fact that it is always easier and more convenient to blame others for what’s wrong with the world or our own life, and I think that a healthy dose of self-doubt is a reasonable and wise policy.
    Roger

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Nowosielski- I don’t necessarily want to claim that Sarah Palin is “deep.” For one thing, that sounds like some idiot carrying on about some stupid pop singer. Oh, Kurt Cobain was DEEP man. You just don’t Get It.

    Also, I don’t necessarily want politicians who are “deep.” I’m exactly NOT looking for a Platonic philosopher-king. That’s just broadly looking for a dictator, someone whose working on a different plane, and we just need to follow along with the big plan. I’m more looking for a capable manager and steward, not a visionary. That’s why Mitt Romney started looking pretty good to me in the primaries.

    But in fact Sarah Palin is a sharp cookie, and has significant executive experience – and has to some significant extent gotten results. Especially, her willingness to turn on corruption within her own party is a big plus with me.

    I could do without some of the populist shtick she was running with the McCain campaign, but I get a pretty strong general sense that her thinking mostly tends to run my way.

    Mostly, she seems like a really practical, sensible woman, beyond ideology. She’s not a hothouse flower like some Kennedy or Bush scion. She has some experience in actually managing budgets and working physical labor.

    Also, I will invoke Tina Fey’s primary season argument originally made for Hillary: Bitches get stuff done. Sarah is very ladylike, but she’s got just enough bitch to put a spiked heel down on a deserving foot. Same type of traits in a man might get him described as “hardass.”

    Finally, I can’t imagine that President Palin would be plotting how to spend an extra trillion dollars to stimulate the economy. She could accomplish that with a swimsuit calender. But beyond that, she’d be much more just practically skeptical of a lot of it.

    Plus, I admit a certain social joy in celebrating Sister Sarah because she pisses off all the right people really, really bad and mostly for just the right reasons. I love to defy particularly the faux-elitism lined up against her not just by pretentious Democrats, but Republican self-presumed elite. I’d love to put her in a cage match with that candyass Chris Buckley.

    Finally, Sarah Palin is FUN. That video she staged on the turkey farm at Thanksgiving was DARK humor from Miss Sarah. That was such an in-your-face affront to candyass sensibilities. She also inspires great Paul Bunyon type stuff.

    FACT: Sarah Palin won her governor’s seat by shooting her opponent the incumbent with a bow and arrow, and serving him up to constituents cooked up with a delicious moose stew recipe. Later, she staked his head on a post in the Aleutian Islands as a message to the Russians.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Look, Al,

    You don’t have a quarrel with me at all. Not once on this or any other thread have I made any disparaging remarks about Ms Palin, nor have I ever done it or thought so during pre-election times. In fact, I have always regarded the Democrats’ attacks on her as low and underhanded. I have no reason, no has she given me any, to doubt or question her ability(ies) to serve. As to Ms. Coulter, I’m sorry I kind of overreacted; I didn’t really mean half of the things I said, although I do have a rather low opinion of all ideologues, be they from the Right or the Left. But Ms Palin doesn’t belong of course in that category. So I hope we’re square on this issue. OK. No hard feelings, please!

  • Cindy D

    Roger,

    You’ll have to show me an evil baby then. I’ve never met one. Children can be very mean. They’re already being socialized.

    I didn’t think I was insisting on sainthood. Or even talking about goodness. I’m talking about being socialized into a system. Our culture promotes certain values, attitudes, etc. in order to function the way it does. All cultures do, no? Not all cultures are the same though, are they?

    Are you familiar with Milgram’s experiments? The set up is that it’s an experiment about learning. One subject is the “teacher” and the other is the “learner”? An authority figure in a white coat tells the “teacher” that when the “learner” makes a mistake s/he is to administer a shock (of course there were no real shocks, but the teacher didn’t know this). Most “teachers” went on shocking the “learner” despite the needle entering the danger range, despite their belief they were injuring the learner and despite extreme personal discomfort in doing so–because an authority figure told them to.

    Of course neither of these two studies could ever be replicated. They’re unconscionable and caused psychological damage to the participants. I’ve always found them very important for what they demonstrate about how people (in our society) act in certain situations. They offer clues, I think, about certain things that are very wrong in the way children are educated.

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Interesting thing on Sarah Palin. I saw Colbert Report today and they played a clip I’d forgotten about of Bush back in 2000 getting subjected to the same kind of insulting and demeaning questions Palin got hit with during this campaign. He responded in much the same way, but got more pissed and was less cooperative. His response was more effective IMO. She should have been more aggressive and less nice when dealing with those media hit-job interviews.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    No disagreement, Cindy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Except “evil” starts small: selfishness, me-first kind of thing, things like that. Of course socialization plays a great role, but it’s all too easy to ALWAYS look for answers and solutions in the wrongs and imperfections of the society. There’s also a matter of personal responsibility – on the part of parents, educators, and the like – and that too, what we do individually, also plays a part in how individual persons in our charge turn out. Again, looking for faults elsewhere is the easiest way out.
    Roger

  • Cindy D

    Roger,

    …it’s all too easy to ALWAYS look for answers and solutions in the wrongs and imperfections of the society.

    The answers and solutions I’m after are those of a teacher who would like to do no harm to children by indoctrinating them into the mindset of robots.

    Instead of empty vessels to fill with a jumble of facts and myths, imagine a child who is encouraged to question, think about, and express opinions about what is taken for granted by most people. Imagine if children were offered information and learned to think for themselves. What if they did not see a teacher as having all the knowledge? But more as a facilitator, helping to find sources of information to think about and offering references and facilitating discussion.

    If children were allowed encouraged to think, I believe we’d have less people who would act like those in Zimbardo or Milgram’s studies.

  • http://ex-conservative.blogspot.com Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    When discussing those ‘mean questions’ to Dubya and Palin – what questions, exactly, were more mean-spirited than those the Republicans themselves threw at McCain, or at Kerry, or at Obama?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    The (the children) do it to begin with Cindy. We’re all born inquisitive until at a later age dullness and dogma sets in – again, not because of the child but the society. So it’s not that I disagree with you in principle, only that things are not as bleak as you seem to portray them. It’s amazing in fact, in spite of all the retarding influences, how many young people turn up being intelligent, inquisitive, and thinking for themselves. Think on that. There’ll always be those who don’t – and for ANY number of reasons. And while the goal of having a society where everyone of its citizens realizes his or her potential is a desirable one and we should be working to that end, it is utopian. So I’d just rather divert my energies to task that are doable.
    Again, things aren’t as bleak as you portray them.
    There is Hope & Change.

    Roger

  • Cindy D

    Roger,

    How many wars are we in? How many children are hungry each night? How many people are fighting about who’re the real heroes Democrats or Republicans? How many elderly people are locked away in hellholes nursing homes? How much of the population is in prison now? How many people trying to change things are forced to the ground by the authorities of a “free” country based in equal rights? How many girls think they need liposuction or breast implants? How many boys think they’re too short? Who is not okay because they don’t wear clothes that are in style? How many men see women as objects of conquest? How many women are seeing men that way? Why is sex slavery the fastest growing business in the world?

    How many people would shock the learner despite thinking the learner could die? How many people would join the “in crowd” of the Abu Ghraib prison torturers?

    No, it’s not as bad as make it out. It’s exceedingly worse.

  • Cindy D

    Oh and Roger? Let your government and your indoctrination tell you it’s a Utopian pipe dream–no one can really be human and self-responsible without a state or a god to force them.

    What I see as Utopian? This idea that while all around everyone there are huge piles of garbage. People readily admit it’s garbage. They’ll argue about it all the time, here and everywhere else. They all see something wrong. But, they still think this general plan will work. They criticize the outcomes of this plan from every angle. But, they all expect it to somehow work. That is Utopian.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cindy,

    I can’t personally correct all those problems. They’re overwhelming. Which isn’t to say I’m not concerned. Any one individual can do only so much. For sanity’s sake, we have to limit our objectives; otherwise, one’d become paralyzed. Still, you should hang around some more around young people. Every new generation gets a new start. I don’t know how bad things are in your neck of the woods. But in California, at least where I lived, the young ones are doing just fine. It’s not only surprising but very encouraging.
    Of course, there’ll always be all kinds.

  • Cindy D

    And I don’t believe in Utopia. I think of myself as pretty practical. After all I’m not offering cut and dried solutions with a claim that they’ll work. I’m looking at actual ways to change what is actually wrong. Voting for a Democrat and “hoping” won’t change that.

  • Cindy D

    …we have to limit our objectives; otherwise, one’d become paralyzed…

    No, it’s probably exactly the opposite in my experience.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Well, Cindy. Some people join organization and causes – like many people I know, for example, who made it to New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina. And there are many other examples of people doing what they can in a practical and concrete way. Perhaps you should consider some of those options – it’s one way of dealing with one’s angst – but it’s not for everyone. But it’s beyond my powers, intellectual or otherwise, to address all those issues at once. I can only deal with one problem at a time.
    Roger

  • Cindy D

    Until we look at all those things, all the time, we will be paralyzed into inaction. We will be “happy”. We’ll turn to entertainment.

    If you saw an injured person right in front of your eyes would you help them? What about an injured person not in front of your eyes?

  • Cindy D

    I have faith in you Roger.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    If children were allowed encouraged to think, I believe we’d have less people who would act like those in Zimbardo or Milgram’s studies.

    But Cindy, the people in Zimbardo’s study were college students. (And not just any college – Stanford.) They lived and worked in an environment which encouraged them to think. And yet…

    I believe research tends to show that the intelligence and/or intellect of a person makes very little difference to how they will react in that sort of situation. At some point, the hardwired human instinct to conform kicks in and overrides any ethics, smarts or common sense.

  • Cindy D

    Dr.D,

    They lived and worked in an environment which encouraged them to think.

    You think so? Did it override their indoctrination from the time they could talk? My education did not override mine. And that is with an initial approach of being a rebel. Rebel at 15, rebel at 25. I focused everything where I had a choice (you know where I was allowed to choose the subject of my research or paper or reading) on questioning the status quo. I had support from a couple teachers through the whole of school. Some even gave us stuff to inspire challenge.

    How’d I end up becoming the status quo, then?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cindy,

    Why don’t you read a recent piece on BC, “Médecins Sans Frontières’ Top Ten List For 2008″ in the Politics archive, Dec 24, 2008 and the few comments if any on the thread. I believe it will give you an answer to your previous question: no, I cannot respond to something that far away in the same way I could if it happened before my very eyes.
    Roger

  • Cindy D

    And Dr.D,

    I am not talking about being an educated person or as a protection from being inhuman.

    I’m talking about indoctrination that happens because a system demands it. If people were actually allowed to think this system couldn’t remain stable. Power couldn’t remain in power.

    You don’t have to be an intellectual or be educated to think independently. In fact take what we call “education” away and you’re probably better off.

  • Cindy D

    …make that being and educated person or being an intellectual.

    In fact thinking of myself as an intellectual has only hurt me. As I am still discovering.

  • Cindy D

    Thanks Roger,

    I’ll do that.

  • Cindy D

    I cannot respond to something that far away in the same way I could if it happened before my very eyes.

    So, how do the old people stop getting locked away?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Hold that thought and some previous things you said. I’ll try to address them later. I’m in the middle of something and wouldn’t like to rush with a response.
    Roger

  • Mark Eden

    …when we become what we resist we need to take a critical look at our acts of resistance

  • Cindy D

    Hi Mark,

    I’ll be thinking about that. :-)

  • Brunelleschi

    This discussion got boring!

    Let’s get back to the point.

    An ex-SNL writer and wise-ass is about to be a US senator!

    That’s awesome. The circus over the election might just be the beginning.. :)