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Essence revisits the Down Low

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I last wrote about the Down Low phenonenom in August.

Commenters at Blogcritics have brought my attention to a new controversy involving ‘brothers on the Down Low.’ The phrase refers to African-American men who have sex with other men while pretending to be heterosexual. They may also be sexually involved with women. Down Lows are often held responsible for the epidemic of HIV infection among African-Americans, though disproportionate use of intravenous drugs also plays a part.

It is time to go there, again.

Though men of all races and ethnicities engage in secret homosexual activity, the topic has become of particular interest in the black community because more than 70 percent of women diagnosed with new cases of HIV infection in the United States are African-American. A magazine whose target demographic is black women published a roundtable discussion, titled “Passing for Straight,” this month. Essence selected Lynn Harris, a gay writer of popular novels about bisexual men, to host the roundtable. Four of the six men invited to share their stories showed up. In their 20s and 30s, they say they are comfortable with having sexual relationships with both men and women. The consensus is that women are responsible for protecting themselves from HIV infection by monitoring their sexual partners and insisting on the use of condoms. The article also features the stories of two women who fell in love with men on the Down Low.

Harris offers some perspective on the issue over the years.

If you think brothers who have sex with men in secret are part of some new fad that will soon pass, consider this: It was more than 30 years ago when I met my first down-low brother. He was a handsome high-school football star, and I was the skinny kid who couldn’t believe my good fortune when our paths crossed one summer evening in Little Rock, Arkansas. For months afterward our every move was cloaked in secrecy. He made it clear that I was not to mention knowing him, much less what we did when we managed to find time alone.

When he decided to end the affair to pursue his future wife, I was left with my first broken heart. Still I never breathed a word of our relationship to anyone. When I saw him in public I looked the other way, and I never called him, even when I longed for his voice. In those days before AIDS, his attitude was that what his girlfriend didn’t know couldn’t hurt her.

That might have been true then, but with large numbers of African-American women being diagnosed with HIV — 72 percent of all new female cases — the situation has changed. Women’s lives today depend on their knowing who’s sleeping with whom.

The question of whether there is more hidden homosexual sexual activity by straight men or whether the secret is just not so secret anymore is an open one. Though there is more honesty about being gay among exclusively homosexual men, it isn’t clear that men who want to reserve the opportunity to sleep with other men and women are equally forthcoming.

Having been there and done that, Harris tries to offer insight into the thinking of men on the Down Low.

But why are so many of them on the down low? The truth is that most brothers who are attracted to men are desperately afraid of revealing it. Given the burden of racism they already carry, the last thing they want is to add yet another stigma to their lives. Many also fear that if they reveal this aspect of themselves, they’ll be drummed out of their families, destroying their only safe haven in an already unwelcoming society. So they act out their attraction in out-of-the-way places where they won’t be seen.

Read the complete discussion in this month’s issue of Essence. And, plan to pick up a copy next month. There will be a second piece about the Down Low.

Note: This entry also appeared at Silver Rights.

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About The Diva

  • Doc

    Well this gay man never had any lack of married (hetero-wise) men hounding around. Don’t know the white/black split on that…most reputable studies seem to place the number at 30% of all men (gay/str8/bi/confused!)have had a same-sex experience to orgasm. So it ain’t that rare ladies.

    Oprah did a show on this I remember. She was wondering how much of it is entrenched homophobia in the black community via the churches and greater family pressure to be str8.

    That’s why most public health surveys have to use the term “men that have sex with men” to get guys to be more honest about what and who they’ve done.

    But while people get that sorted out in their heads, HIV and other nasty things spread out. A real challenge to prevention programs and how to outreach to these people. Especially challenging when many of these hookup are net based so it’s not as easy as putting condoms and info out at bars, etc.

    Attention is important so Diva’s post will hopefully be seen by a lot more of these men then publishing in a gay mag which these d&l guys would never think of picking up.

  • Anonymous

    In spite of people’s view toward AIDS, homo’s and so called bi-sexual men have been responsible for, and have facilitated the spread of the disease by about 80%.

    If it weren’t for the gay population the AIDS statistics would be minimal at worst. Innocent women and children have been infected over the last fifteen years because of these “DOWN LOW” closet queers.

    Next I guess gay marriage (if it happens) will make it okay to butt bang your “Queen” without a condom.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Dear Mr. or Ms. uninformed, anonymous commenter:

    Have you studied AIDS in Africa?

    Buh bye.

  • Joanie

    I don’t know why my name failed to appear above. Anyway I work in legal aid and have seen two cases in the last ten years where good decent women have been infected by a “DOWN LOW” homo that they were married to. In one case the lady was pregnant and passed it on to her unborn daughter, neither of which deserved it.

  • Doc

    Gee Joanie, by that brilliant logic you could also say that without the black population, the AIDS crisis and sickle cell anemia worldwide would be essentially gone too.

    But then you wouldn’t get to blame us gay people (HIV neg here along with my hubby!). Would you prefer if hubby got his HIV from a prostitute and gave it to his wife/kid?

  • Joanie

    It is not brilliant logic it is fact. Why do people not want to own up to the truth. As far as prostitutes, the majority of women infected at the start of the AIDS crisis was from “DOWN LOW” or so called bi-sexual closet queers.

    Most people don’t want to look at real statistical proof that exist because then they would have to acknowledge the truth behind the facts.

  • boomcrashbaby

    If one looks at the statistical proof world-wide instead of their own tiny little corner of the world, they would see that AIDS is running rampant in Africa and India, where, in many areas, the majority of people are infected. Certainly the majority of people on two continents are not homosexual. AIDS spread into the western world via promiscuous homosexuals, but given how it is transferred and the number of people worldwide who were/are infected, it would have gotten over here in other ways eventually. I believe to lay blame on a specific community for a disease that makes no distinction is to sell future generations and a possible cure short.

    Reading this post about the down-low and the reasons for it (fear of being discovered), the down-low is just a renaming of the closet. Perhaps closet sounds too negative so let’s call it the down-low?

    This is not new, the closet has been around as long as religion has tried to dictate sexual expression. And that is for centuries. There’s only one way to get rid of the closet, or the down-low, and all of the negative consequences it brings, and it’s not going to happen any time soon, unfortunately.

  • Eric Olsen

    The bottom line – apart from matters of AIDS, etc – is that this is an appallingly dishonest way to live that can result only in harm to all involved.

    Make up your fucking mind about what you are, then be honest about it.

  • http://macaronies.blogspot.com Mac Diva

    Yes, count on Oprah to bring the topic out in the open. J.L. King’s appearance on the show has resulted in the book being on backorder at most stores. I’ll be checking obscure bookstores to try to lay hands on it. I didn’t become aware of his appearance until after the show, but will try to get a transcript.

    I have mixed feelings about what I know of the man. He has not repudiated having sex with men and women. Says he still wants to find a nice girl to settle down with. (Marriage ended when wife ‘got nosy’ and discovered he had been having sex with men for 20 to 25 years.) He refuses to discuss his own HIV status. Most troubling, he dares not address the love that dare not speak its name. J.L. King is still supportive of the delusion that a man can have sex with other men and be straight. I appreciate his having helped bring the topic of the Down Low to the forefront. But, I can’t ignore that he, as they say, ‘has issues.’

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    You might try the Amazon link. They can check in-store availability based on your zip code.

  • Dan

    One seemingly obvious reason for excessive homosexual behaviour among black men may be because of a stronger identificaction with their mothers, often the prime role model in single parent families. It could be a case of a heterosexual biology at odds with a homosexual psychological orientation.

  • Joanie

    About comment#7 BCB. I am well aware of the crisis worldwide and have traveled abroad. In other words I am not in my own little corner, I am addressing the subject matter posted above and the statistical facts that support it.

    The US is the richest and smartest country in the world. There is no excuse for these men to be secretly sowing there AIDS infected seeds in another mans ass, and then passing it on to their wives.

    Unfortunately for the nations in Africa, the lack of resources, education, and a beleif system that refuses something as simple as the use of condoms has led to their demise.

  • Shark

    I wonder if there’s such a thing as Darwinian Population Control?

    Mother Nature’s Cease & Desist Notice?

    Are pandemics the new “Pill” for an over-taxed hostess planet?

    ====

    Boombaby, re. “Down Low” as a euphemism for “The Closet” —

    Good one!

  • boomcrashbaby

    About comment#7 BCB. I am well aware of the crisis worldwide and have traveled abroad. In other words I am not in my own little corner, I am addressing the subject matter posted above and the statistical facts that support it.

    Okay, since you are sticking with statistical facts, you should post a link corroborating where the majority of women who first got infected at the onset of the disease were from closeted ‘down-lows’ and not from intravenous needle sharing and blood transfusions that occurred before 1985.
    (if a person is closeted, that means that they don’t tell you they engage in same-sex activity, so I’d like to see where your data is, where you know they are primarily to blame at the onset of the disease, as you claim in comment 6.)

    There is no excuse for these men to be ….passing it on to their wives.

    I don’t want to make excuses for anybody. What is happening in these cases is wrong, there is no doubt about it. It is wrong to cheat on your spouse whether it is with another man or a woman. Disease is only one consequence of such an action. Perhaps these men would be more honest with themselves about their orientation, and perhaps they’d never even get married, saving some woman from heartache or disease, if there wasn’t so much condemnation in this world against some people for being honest with themselves. I mean, some of them can lose their home, their families, their connection with their parents, their careers, face possible harm or assault by their peers, etc. if they were ‘true to themselves’. Maybe if society was more tolerant, then people wouldn’t have a need to create a closet, do you think? It’s easy for someone to post a comment, ‘just figure out what you want and be yourself’, but it’s harder to do so, if that step costs you everything.

    I don’t agree with the closet, it is not only destructive to those around the individual as this post points out, but it is certainly exhausting and self-destructive to maintain. Get rid of the need for the closet, and you will get rid of the closet and all it’s consequences.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Boombaby, re. “Down Low” as a euphemism for “The Closet”

    Thanks Shark, if you read how they describe it, it certainly is just the closet. The problem here is that the individuals mentioned in the interview want to make the ‘down-low’ societally acceptable. Rather than get rid of the need for the existance of the down-low, they want to incorporate adultery into acceptable behavior.

    If everyone gets rid of the gender of the third party, what it boils down to is a man cheating on his wife. It doesn’t matter who it’s with, it should never be promoted as acceptable.

  • Joseph

    I agree with the Lawyer chick Joanie. The stats and evidence is there so why are people (specifically gays) trying to give all of their stupid scenerios. In fact why are gays always trying to speculate on the sexualality of men they don’t know?

    You may not beleive in God but there is good reason why homosexuals in America were responsible for the majority of the first AIDS outbtreaks here in America. The other small percentage was from blood transfusions and the ferry “down low” dudes transmitting it to their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends.

    Don’t worry I’m not homophobic ( I fear no one except God )I just don’t like gays and I feel that it is morally wrong according to my personal convictions just as you feel the opposite. People are so afraid of a crusifix, bible and the ten commandments. Does that meen they are Christian/God-aphobics? It’s pretty scary when people fear the symbol of a cross, bible, Jesus, and protest against, but aren’t afraid of network TV shows making sexual inuendo’s about gay oral and anal sex acts that a 13 or 14 year old can’t understand. They rate these Will and grace type shows at 14 or PG-13, yet freak over a nipple with a pasty on it which no one saw. I have it recorded and even on slow it is so fast and far enough away that no one could see it.

  • boomcrashbaby

    You may not beleive in God but there is good reason why homosexuals in America were responsible for the majority of the first AIDS outbtreaks here in America.

    And what would that reason be?

    The other small percentage was from blood transfusions and the ferry “down low” dudes transmitting it to their unsuspecting wives and girlfriends.

    You forgot to mention needle sharing, which apparently was such a ‘small’ percentage that health facilities and community service centers across the country debated and some actually did hand out free needles. Of course they only did this because such a small percentage of infections were spread this way.

    Comparing peoples reaction to religion, to their reaction to orientation, is also erroneous. It would be more accurate to compare people’s reaction to the cross, to their reaction to a rainbow flag, not another human being.

    There is no doubt that promiscuous sex in at-risk groups leads to AIDS. Single gay men with multiple partners who do not practice safe sex can certainly be considered an at-risk group. Nobody is trying to conceal that fact. Joanie’s implication about gay marriage leading to increased AIDS risk (comment #2) shows the real motivation behind her comments though, not fact and not statistics.

    Also, since she is a legal aide (not a lawyer chick), and in the same sentence she mentions that she has seen two instances of the down-low in ten years, one can only conclude that she doesn’t get many clients or perhaps this isn’t a large enough issue to justify the condemnation of all gay people as a whole group.

    Alternatively, we can condemn all heterosexuals collectively, as there are those in that group who spread dozens of diseases amongst themselves, including HIV.

  • Joanie

    I am an Attorney for the legal aide society in a fairly large city.

    I do not share all of the above views, but I do think that the “down low” and gay activity has facilitated the spread in every group including needle sharing.

    I might ad that I have seen hundreds of cases where illicit gay activity has put innocent women and children in danger.

  • Shark

    Joanie, is it safe to assume that simple grammar and a correct spelling of “add” weren’t a part of your Bar Exam?

    (Why does everyone on BC claim to be a lawyer at some point? Aren’t laywers generally just one click above tapeworms in our society?)

  • http://macaronies.blogspot.com Mac Diva

    I must take issue with Shark’s appeal [personal attack deleted] in Comment 13.

    I wonder if there’s such a thing as Darwinian Population Control?

    I don’t think the higher rates of HIV infection and death from AIDS among blacks, Hispanics and homosexuals are evidence of survival of the most fit, i.e., whites and heterosexuals. However, I am not surprised to see him express such a retrograde opinion.

    Dan Precht and retrograde beliefs go hand in hand most of the time. His latest is just more of the same. My response is, ‘Yo Mama.’

    Joanie, I don’t believe anyone is taking issue with your point that Down Low men are selfish people engaging in dishonest behavior. It is the way you are expressing it that is resulting in rancor.

  • Shark

    MacDiva, as always.

    I write three funny, yet profound rhetorical questions meant to stimulate original thought:

    “…I wonder if there’s such a thing as Darwinian Population Control? Mother Nature’s Cease & Desist Notice? Are pandemics the new “Pill” for an over-taxed hostess planet?”

    —[personal attack deleted] and she turns it into a [reposting of previous edited comment deleted]

    feh. Nothing new.

  • Shark

    MacDiva: “…I don’t think the higher rates of HIV infection and death from AIDS among blacks, Hispanics and homosexuals are evidence of survival of the most *fit…”

    Yah, you’re right.

    Magic Johnson seems to be on his deathbed.

    *”fit” is a relative word these days.

  • Shark

    Perhaps I should explain myself further — for those interested in something beyond a debate that degenerates (as always) into simplistic categorization/polarization using terms like ‘racist’ and ‘homophobe’.

    My view of this global pandemic (AIDS) is from The Big Picture; the self-preservative actions of an entire planet. Overpopulation, overcrowding, overtaxed resources, abuse of the environment, etc. always have self-limiting results. ie. the health and population of prey controls the numerical size, health, and population of the predators, and vice versa. The Black Plague occurred in overcrowded European towns where hygiene was neglected; rats accompanied overcrowding and urban decay, and they multiplied thanks to the increase in the population’s discarded trash — followed by an increase in the population of infested fleas, followed by a drastic decrease in the initial cause: human beings.

    That’s the way our Cosmic Mommy works. Thanks to her Natural Laws, she doesn’t put up with any shit that’s going to eliminate her completely. She’s patient, but not too sympathetic.

    Humankind is a social animal, but an animal all the same. Our personal and collective actions have personal and collective consequences. Our society is still a component of nature, still functions according to ‘some’ natural laws, and that’s why I say that ‘survival of the fittest’ might still apply. But in a human culture, “fittest” might not mean ‘fit’ in a strictly biological sense, (although I think they are entwined), but also in a cultural sense.

    H.G. Wells wrote: “Civilization is a race between Education and Disaster.”

    The “uneducated” obviously suffer a great handicap in today’s world, whether facing housing, employment, or the possibility of acquiring and dying from AIDS.

    Education might also be expanded to include “moral education” — which apparently married bisexuals practicing illicit infidelity are sadly lacking.

    Education might also be a contributing factor in economic status; not always [as in my case :) ], but obviously, most of the time.

    So a rich guy like Magic Johnson, despite being a philandering fool, has access to first-class health care and the expensive drugs required to reduce the damaging effects of HIV. He’s surviving fine.

    The American poor have less chances. And the destitute in Africa have virtually none.

    So I’m not talking about “white males” in nature’s hierarchy of the ‘fittest’, but about well-to-do educated people in society’s human hierarchy. They are the fittest — in almost every sense: ie. education and economics directly contribute to overall health, survivability, and future outlook for their progeny. (BTW: starvation in Africa, ie. poor nutrition in pregnant mothers + poor nutrition in early childhood, is creating whole populations of the virtually mentally handicapped.)

    Furthermore: If some of the black bisexuals practicing “down-low” had Boomcrashbaby’s Intelligence and Moral Values, they probably wouldn’t be infected with HIV — and infecting others.

    PS: I think we have more to worry about from an upcoming pandemic (influenza, 1918 style?) caused by overpopulation — as opposed to the threat posed by international Islamic terrorists. We’ll see.

  • Joanie

    About #19 Shark: I am sorry [personal attack deleted] that it bothers you that I left one letter off of a word. I don’t spell check or proof read the stuff that I post on message boards.

    If everyone was perfect there would be no use for microsoft word that millions use everyday. [personal attack deleted]

    What does that have to do with the “down low” subject anyway? Do you guys approach this blog site in a serious manner [personal attack deleted]

  • boomcrashbaby

    Shark, it’s quite possible that any virus or cold is Mother Nature’s attempt at population control, but I don’t see how mankind has any way to prove that, so I’m not sure how it can ever go beyond a theory.

    That reminds me of when my daughter was first born, I was on a gay message board, being all silly and passing out the cyber cigars, etc. when I was surprised to find that more than a few gay people on that board thought that homosexuality was Nature’s attempt at population control!

    I got all upset at the thought initially and that board got very heated for days, until now it’s like *shrugging* whatever. Nobody ever knows the reasons why we are born the way we are, and if it’s for population control, well then we have a function in nature after all, so that should be more reason to cease the discrimination. That’s at least how I feel about it now.

    Joanie, while I agree with you that illicit sexual activity is a serious means by which HIV is spread, it is your tone, implications and doublespeak with which I am taking issue with. Some examples:

    In one case the lady was pregnant and passed it on to her unborn daughter, neither of which deserved it.

    Nobody, including a person who is unfaithful to his wedding vows, deserves the horrible decay of AIDS.

    There is no excuse for these men to be secretly sowing there AIDS infected seeds in another mans ass, and then passing it on to their wives.

    Inflammatory sentence condemning homosexual activity rather than adultery which is the real issue. If these men slept with women, rather than other men, would Essence have run a report on it? Probably not since that kind of adultery has been going on since man and woman first got together.

    Next I guess gay marriage (if it happens) will make it okay to butt bang your “Queen” without a condom.

    Insulting, derogatory comment that has nothing to do with the down-low. In fact, if gay marriage were allowed, perhaps more of these closeted men would marry men instead of women, decreasing instances of the down low! And if you think any man, gay OR straight, needs a notarized certificate from the government to determine whether it is okay or not to use a condom, then you do not comprehend the male thinking process! And finally, before you go condeming the recognition of a legally recognized MONOGAMOUS relationship as tantamount to the spreading of AIDS and the destruction of society, you and a great many others who speak like you should know that a GREAT percentage of gay men do NOT even engage in anal sex at all! Whenever I read a comment like that, I feel like it is the same situation where an African American reads a comment condemning the entire minority group because SOME engage in the down-low! It’s wrong, it harms an entire group of people and it is not on the right track to finding a solution to the problem.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Shark-
    If you must single out a plague of color, Poe’s Red Death would certainly have some interesting ramifications.

  • Shark

    Joe, you are frighteningly astute! The “Black” plague remark will obviously be a reason for yet another ____ from that ____ _____.

    (I’ll self-edit from here on out, thankyouverymuch…)

    What’s with the [personal attack deleted]? I don’t think I launched a “personal attack” in Comment 21.

    Seems the designation is being stretched to the limits.

    And what the hell does “[reposting of previous edited comment deleted]” mean??

    Oh well, at least someone in America is doing their job.

  • Dan

    Don’t feel bad Shark, I post possibly the most cogent comment of this entire thread that respectfully answers the central question of the thread, and I receive a personal attack that isn’t deleted. Not that I’m all that put off by it. I just marvel at the selective inconsistency.

  • http://calblog.com Justene

    Any comments that cause concern can be emailed to me at justenea@yahoo.com. Consistent editing started 6/30. I am unlikely to have seen an attack before that. I may have missed something since then.

  • Joseph

    BCB: why are you so pissed at the comments that the lawyer chick made. Do you think it is possible that she’s seen a lot especially working in legal aid? Maybe she is just as opposed to all of the gay bs that is starting to waste more and more taxpayer dollars in the legal system. What is to prevent a “bi-sex” trio from wanting the right to a three way marriage. And so the story goes.

    Speaking of which. There were a bunch of ferries tooting there flaming little horns in a busy intersection today. Sqeeking like a bunch of pigs, gay ones. “Call your senator and tell him not to put the word discrimination in to the constitution” they yelled. To beat it all they were trotting around looking as gay as gay can get. I now know where the term “flaming” gets it’s meaning. “Heeey! Call that silly senator and tell him to get me some rights or I’m gonna smack him in the face”!

    Did it ever occur to you that the majority of Americans don’t give a shit. Even your so called straight friends. The reason I say this is because there was some kind of poll taken that showed behind their backs that more than sixty percent of the straight friends still called gays faggots and almost eighty percent opposed gay marriage???

  • boomcrashbaby

    BCB: why are you so pissed at the comments that the lawyer chick made.

    I’m not pissed at all, Joseph. Just pointing out overgeneralizations.

    Maybe she is just as opposed to all of the gay bs that is starting to waste more and more taxpayer dollars in the legal system.

    Damn equality. Why can’t it be free?

    What is to prevent a “bi-sex” trio from wanting the right to a three way marriage. And so the story goes.

    Give some people constitutional rights and then everybody will want them. So the story goes.

    There were a bunch of ferries tooting there flaming little horns in a busy intersection today. Sqeeking like a bunch of pigs, gay ones.

    I was correcting her overgeneralizations because then totally irrelevant comments that are nothing more than condescending attacks on minority groups come out of the woodwork by people who naively reveal their bigotry.

    Did it ever occur to you that the majority of Americans don’t give a shit.

    Yes, Joseph. But I don’t give a shit that the majority of Americans don’t give a shit. Equality is not handed out by popular opinion. It’s handed out by the Constitution and other government documents.

    The reason I say this is because there was some kind of poll taken that showed behind their backs that more than sixty percent of the straight friends still called gays faggots and almost eighty percent opposed gay marriage?

    When the Court ordered desegration in the school system, it wasn’t exactly popular then either. I’m not looking to be invited to your house for dinner, I’m looking for equality from my government. That still entitles you to think whatever you want of me. I’m not pissed at Joanie or you, I’m just speaking out against bigotry and stupid hateful comments like yours, that have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

  • Joanie

    You seem to use the words bigotry, minority and equality freely. You are a insult to every real minority. Would you honestly tell an African American female that you should be in the same catagory as her? You can’t catagorize a lifestyle as a minority.

    Just because people have a religous and moral beleif that is not in line with homosexualality doesn’t make them a bigot.

    Quit whinning. If God, nature or whatever you beleive meant for same sexes to have and raise kids together there would have been an alternate way for homosexuals to reproduce. It is obvious that men having anal sex has only reproduced HIV. Tell all of your equality and minority stories to a black female who is raiseing two kids and is living in poverty while her hubby is out doin the “DOWN LOW”.

    Next you will want government assistance citing anti-gay discrimination from a potential employer. News flash! Not so fast. I have strong and deep moral beleifs and would never hire someone who engaged in activity opposite my values.

  • boomcrashbaby

    You seem to use the words bigotry, minority and equality freely. You are a insult to every real minority.

    And you can’t seem to stop turning this thread from a discussion on the down-low, to a personal attack of someone you don’t even know.

    Would you honestly tell an African American female that you should be in the same catagory as her? You can’t catagorize a lifestyle as a minority.

    I’m not catagorizing a lifestyle as a minority. My lifestyle is raising a two-year old daughter, working out of the home, and making meals, doing laundry, etc. That’s MY lifestyle and I think it falls in the majority. I don’t catagorize a lifestyle as a minority.

    Just because people have a religous and moral beleif that is not in line with homosexualality doesn’t make them a bigot.

    To disagree, on religious principle, with who I have fallen in love with, does not make someone a bigot. Throwing out personal insults, gross exaggerations, misinformation, and stereotypical comments like ‘ferries’, does.

    If God, nature or whatever you beleive meant for same sexes to have and raise kids together there would have been an alternate way for homosexuals to reproduce.

    There is an alternate way for homosexuals to reproduce. There’s also an alternate way to get around the poor eyesight that God gives us, there’s also an alternate way to fly, to get around the fact that God hasn’t given us wings.

    It is obvious that men having anal sex has only reproduced HIV. Tell all of your equality and minority stories to a black female who is raiseing two kids and is living in poverty while her hubby is out doin the “DOWN LOW”.

    This is what I was talking about, and why I originally spoke out. This thread is about African American men who cheat on their spouses, and you have turned it into a biblical condemnation of all gay people, including those who might be monogamous or celibate or even single and free to do what they want. You are condemning all gay people, with half the reasoning coming from your religious beliefs and the other half of the reason coming from the activities of married African American men.

    Next you will want government assistance citing anti-gay discrimination from a potential employer. News flash! Not so fast. I have strong and deep moral beleifs and would never hire someone who engaged in activity opposite my values

    Depending on where you are, you may be able to engage in discrimination legally. However, you don’t even know if someone who would apply for a job with you has taken a vow before God to be celibate, do you? So your not hiring of them isn’t based on ‘engaged activity’, and you are actually not hiring them based on who they are as a person. In most states, that is discrimination, although it’s still legal in some states.

    Perhaps you should start a blog about the evils of gay people and leave this one to the commentary of those bisexuals who marry women and then cheat on them?

    It’s hard to respect the beliefs of someone who quotes God and the Bible as their reasoning for condemning gay people, when the Bible says that women wearing makeup, people working on the Sabbath, eating shellfish, men talking to women while they are on their period, etc. are all sins. Someone who quotes the Bible and God as their reasoning for condemning gay people conveniently pick and choose parts of the Bible that they wish to believe in and disregard others. I believe in God actually, and I believe on Judgement Day, I will be judged for the sin of love, and other people will be judged for the sins of selective discrimination, persecution and casting the first stone….

  • boomcrashbaby

    Sorry, forgot a backslash. This is easier to read:

    You seem to use the words bigotry, minority and equality freely. You are a insult to every real minority.

    And you can’t seem to stop turning this thread from a discussion on the down-low, to a personal attack of someone you don’t even know.

    Would you honestly tell an African American female that you should be in the same catagory as her? You can’t catagorize a lifestyle as a minority.

    I’m not catagorizing a lifestyle as a minority. My lifestyle is raising a two-year old daughter, working out of the home, and making meals, doing laundry, etc. That’s MY lifestyle and I think it falls in the majority. I don’t catagorize a lifestyle as a minority.

    Just because people have a religous and moral beleif that is not in line with homosexualality doesn’t make them a bigot.

    To disagree, on religious principle, with who I have fallen in love with, does not make someone a bigot. Throwing out personal insults, gross exaggerations, misinformation, and stereotypical comments like ‘ferries’, does.

    If God, nature or whatever you beleive meant for same sexes to have and raise kids together there would have been an alternate way for homosexuals to reproduce.

    There is an alternate way for homosexuals to reproduce. There’s also an alternate way to get around the poor eyesight that God gives us, there’s also an alternate way to fly, to get around the fact that God hasn’t given us wings.

    It is obvious that men having anal sex has only reproduced HIV. Tell all of your equality and minority stories to a black female who is raiseing two kids and is living in poverty while her hubby is out doin the “DOWN LOW”.

    This is what I was talking about, and why I originally spoke out. This thread is about African American men who cheat on their spouses, and you have turned it into a biblical condemnation of all gay people, including those who might be monogamous or celibate or even single and free to do what they want. You are condemning all gay people, with half the reasoning coming from your religious beliefs and the other half of the reason coming from the activities of married African American men.

    Next you will want government assistance citing anti-gay discrimination from a potential employer. News flash! Not so fast. I have strong and deep moral beleifs and would never hire someone who engaged in activity opposite my values

    Depending on where you are, you may be able to engage in discrimination legally. However, you don’t even know if someone who would apply for a job with you has taken a vow before God to be celibate, do you? So your not hiring of them isn’t based on ‘engaged activity’, and you are actually not hiring them based on who they are as a person. In most states, that is discrimination, although it’s still legal in some states.

    Perhaps you should start a blog about the evils of gay people and leave this one to the commentary of those bisexuals who marry women and then cheat on them?

    It’s hard to respect the beliefs of someone who quotes God and the Bible as their reasoning for condemning gay people, when the Bible says that women wearing makeup, people working on the Sabbath, eating shellfish, men talking to women while they are on their period, etc. are all sins. Someone who quotes the Bible and God as their reasoning for condemning gay people conveniently pick and choose parts of the Bible that they wish to believe in and disregard others. I believe in God actually, and I believe on Judgement Day, I will be judged for the sin of love, and other people will be judged for the sins of selective discrimination, persecution and casting the first stone….

  • Joan

    Sorry my real e-mail is joanie_law@mailworks.org not (.com)

  • Joan

    By bcb:
    “To disagree, on religious principle, with who I have fallen in love with, does not make someone a bigot. Throwing out personal insults, gross exaggerations, misinformation, and stereotypical comments like ‘ferries’, does.”

    I have a question. When I was in high school and college I new several guys who turned out to be gay. The whole time that I knew them they talked, walked and acted like any normal male. Why is it when you guys come “out of the closet” your voice changes, most begin to walk in a manner that is less than masculine and your entire body language makes a 180 degree turn?

  • JR

    Why is it when you guys come “out of the closet” your voice changes, most begin to walk in a manner that is less than masculine and your entire body language makes a 180 degree turn?

    Because you see what you expect to see.

  • http://calblog.com Justene

    It’s the same phenomena that causes many women, upon getting married, to stop wearing makeup and start gaining weight. It means nothing in terms of right/wrong of the selection of lifestyle.

  • boomcrashbaby

    In most cases, it’s temporary. It’s a release of expression that has been built up over a lifetime of supression. It’s almost an overcompensation a lot of the time. A pressure valve. And it doesn’t affect everybody. I came out of the closet years ago and people still assume I am straight. Self-expression affects us all differently.

    One of the most common mistakes people can make is assuming that the level of femininity a man has is directly related to his sexual orientation. Gender identification is not always directly related to sexual orientation. Otherwise it wouldn’t be possible to have married guys doing the ‘down low’ without their wives suspecting. There are gay cowboys in the midwest who are as masculine as the Marlboro Man, there are masculine gay policemen, gay firefighters, gay athletes in major sports like football, soccer, etc. and unless they directly tell you they are gay, the assumption is that they are straight and only the easily identifiable feminine guy is gay. It’s a common mistake people make.

  • http://macaronies.blogspot.com Mac Diva

    Maybe it is because I haven’t read the thread over from the top, but I don’t understand the claims that gay men’s behavior, in the sense of mannerisms, changes when they come out of the closet. I haven’t observed that. Seems to me that men who are effeminate (not all gay men by a long shot) are like that whether they are in or out of the closet. Beats me where that viewpoint is coming from.

    I haven’t checked on the thread, which I knew might be controversial, as much as I normally would because I’ve been busy. The weather is very bleak for much of the year out here in the Pacific Northwest. So, we really get out and party in the summer.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Mac Diva, 99% of the time I’d say behavior doesn’t change. I’ve known one or two to go through a transformation upon coming out and it was temporary and was for the reason I said before. But you are right, 99% of the time, there is no change.

    Also, another example of femininity not being related to orientation; the majority of transsexuals are straight men. They want to become women, they feel very feminine, but they are still attracted to women.

    For me, the only thing that changed when I came out, was that I now act/react the same as people around me. Before, if I was around a bunch of guys who couldn’t stop talking about female body parts, or whatever, I would always be silent, smiling and nodding, etc. Now, I’ll be the same. (When in Rome…) which is why sometimes on this site when people make sexual innuendos, jokes or blogs about sex, etc. everybody’s feelin good and having a good time, then I’ll chime in with my own comments, which always grinds the conversation to a screeching halt as people freak out. Hehe. But the difference with me being out of the closet now, is that their comfort level is THEIR problem now, not mine.

  • boomcrashbaby

    oh, and JR’s response (#37) is golden. When someone you know for a long time comes out to you, you will subconsciously look for mannerisms, vocal inflections, etc. that you weren’t looking for before.

  • PROELF

    Do you want to blame homosexuals or voodoo baby rape for the spread of aids in africa?

    Homosexuality has always said to have been foreign to africa, there is not one aids study that points to homosexuality in africa as the major cause for AIDS. To our clearly religious researchers its blasphemy to even think it, they throw it out as a possible source to remain PC, what with black men having a more “manly” muscular body and bigger dick lauded by filthy American TV and pop culture, only the weak white man is supposed to be gay. Sites like godhatesfags.com share this thought. Evangelists believe only whites go to hell, cause only whites are gay. But now I find that people with “manly muscular bodies” are the real gays. Truth about god, the semitic god hates the white race, and should be rejected by any thinking white.

    Anyway, the Down Low craze is the greatest thing to ever happen!
    So much for my short skinny pale self always being recognized as just “Some betch possy azz faghgot cracka!” during high school and college and everywhere else. So much for so called “wiggers” emulating their heroes. Seems, while I am a skinny nerd, I am the only one who “kept it real” yeah “I bez keepin it real” with my anus. I am a real man. Not some muscular, supposedly “big dicked” jock who hangs out at the greyhound bus terminal bathroom every tuesday for unknown reasons. Mother Nature is ruining the cultural revolution and I’m loving every minute of it and look forward to what’s next. W. Bush won’t be able to stop her. GO MOTHER NATURE! RUIN YAHVEHs SHIT!

  • PEACEMAKER

    I have read the comments that are posted in this blog and I am sad to see the racism and hatred written all over the comments. I am not siding with anyone but I believe that it is possible to have a normal discussion without going to extreme and having to use vulgarity and profanity especially insulting God in the process. I am part of the minority as well. I am an Asian female who believes in God. I also believe and follow the Sabbath as well as the eating habits according to the Bible. I know that there is hatred between straight people and gay, bi-sexual men and women. I know people on both sides and the best thing to do is not to judge either one. I know it is hard to stop thinking about the unfairness and the criticism that is going on within both parties but we do not have the right to condemn or judge each other. God is the only one who have the right to do so and He will judge us accordingly on the judgement day. If we want people to listen and to see our point of views, we should be adult enough to engage in a normal discussion where people can respect you, regardless of the insulting words you receive. While I don’t think that being gay or being on the down low is something you’re born with, I cannot condemn it either because it is not my right. I am only human and the best thing is to do what I can to live my life accordingly and to help and serve as an example to others, and it would be nice if everyone else would do the same. God Bless You All!

  • KIND