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Eric Holder’s Demagoguery, Legislation Writing Chimps, the Not-So-Magic Negro and the Monkey That Became President

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In his official capacity as Attorney General, Eric Holder made a speech to Justice Department employees, saying:

Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards. …

We, as average Americans, simply do not talk enough with each other about race. …

It is an issue we have never been at ease with and, given our nation’s history, this is in some ways understandable. If we are to make progress in this area, we must feel comfortable enough with one another and tolerant enough of each other to have frank conversations about the racial matters that continue to divide us.

This is an exceptionally stupid, wrong and dishonest thing to say on every level, though it’s a common refrain of left wingers such as Mr. Holder. We have black history month, and school children know more about Jefferson holding slaves than about him founding the country. We’ve talked and talked and talked.

On top of which, we’ve got black folk working at every level of society. We’ve had two black secretaries of state. A black dude running the Justice Department just can’t have too much there to bitch about. What do we have to do to prove we’re cool? You want we should elect an affirmative action candidate for president, someone not vaguely qualified or experienced for the job mostly just because he’s black? That would be risking grave danger and damage to the nation just to prove a stupid point, wouldn’t it? God, I hope we’d never be that foolish.

What left wingers generally mean by saying that we haven’t talked enough about race is not that we should have an open, honest discussion of our observations and perspectives on racial issues. It’s that Whitey should feel more guilty and seek penance of being lectured to by self-righteous liberals — and of course giving over yet more of our money.

But this very crew has gone very far to in fact actively stifle any honest racial dialogue, certainly in any kind of workplace. You may commit the thought crime of noticing sometimes unflattering racial behavior patterns because Holder doesn’t have the technology to decode your internal thoughts yet. But you damn well know better than to discuss them aloud at work or in any polite company. Black folk might get a little more slack this way typically in the modern American workplace, but no white guy with bills to pay dare have any opinion other than the Correct Liberal Truth on anything that could be remotely purposely arbitrarily construed as racial.

Sean Delonas chimp cartoonWhich brings us to the Sean Delonas cartoon in the New York Post this same week, tying an out of control chimp to out of control legislators. Week’s news in review: A chimpanzee went crazy and violent and the police shot it. Also, the Democrats in Congress and the White House went crazy and violent with not just the U.S. Constitution but any possible kind of good sense, passing a trillionish dollar “stimulus” spending bill.

Delonas put the two events together, which I frankly find a little offensive. That was just a poor little chimp who got his wires crossed and unfortunately had to be put down. But that chimp never did anything so wicked as knowingly mortgaging our grandkids future to throw inhumanly large sums of money at their interest groups as did Speaker Pelosi, Senator Reid, and President Obama.

On top of which, a million monkeys typing for a million years could never have produced something as stupid and destructive or, Lord knows, as expensive as this legislative abomination. But that’s freedom of speech and a difference of opinion, and I reckon I’ll let that pass.

But wait — turns out that the Sean Delonas is guilty. Sean Delonas stands guilty of failing to anticipate the worst, ugly, stupid way that professional grievance mongers could conceivably purposely misconstrue his work.

Turns out, the chimp stood specifically for President Obama — a black dude being compared to a monkey — and shot dead! So it turns out that Delonas’ point was to say that we should kill the monkey President. Hot damn, Al Sharpton’s back in business! Cue the Aerosmith, “I’m back Back in the saddle again.”

Given the point of criticizing the stimulus bill, at least you can’t accuse Delonas of saying that the monkey was niggardly.

It takes a pretty evil mind to even think to twist the cartoon that way, and an even more considerably evil one to make public accusations against a mild mannered cartoonist that way. This is character assassination of the gravest order.

Of course, this again gives the lie to Holder and general liberal protests about wanting honest racial dialogue. Delonas wasn’t even thinking about any racial statement of even a mild kind, and he’s now known for advocating the assassination of the monkey president. And the New York Post editorial staff are co-conspirators. Why, they ran this cartoon in their paper the same day they ran a picture of President Obama! How much clearer could this be?

I’m sorry, did you say you noticed some difference in ethnic behavior patterns between different races in your workplace? Hold on while I hit record — now say that again.

Actually, I’d be pleased to get rid of this cheesy Marxist college professor. I’ve long dreamed of a real monkey president. Me and Tom T. Hall’s dream candidate would certainly not be monkeying with the books like President Obama. To paraphrase Tom T., would you rather have a monkey up in Washington, DC, or have the not-so-Magic Negro making monkeys out of you and me?

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  • http://blogcritics.org/ Phillip Winn

    So wrong overall, while making one correct point. I agree with you (*shudder*) that the response to that cartoon was silly. The critics apparently didn’t follow the news about the dead chimp, or don’t know the legend of monkey’s typing Shakespeare, or are just stupid, or all of the above.

    That said, I think you misunderstood Holder, and I find your overall views and attitude repugnant. I think you try to walk a fine line, insinuating more than you say, and then deal with critics by talking longer than they’re willing to.

    So there you have it, that’s my opinion. Correct call on the chimp cartoon, but reading this article makes me feel slimy. I’ve decide you honestly can’t understand why, so I guess this comment is for other readers. :-)

  • Dawn

    Ewwwww.

    That’s all I have to say.

  • Jordan Richardson

    On top of which, we’ve got black folk working at every level of society.

    Wow, really? Congratulations! I guess that means issues of racism in your country are all solved and should simply be forgotten.

    Forgive the grotesque analogy, but that’s like expecting a little girl to forget she was raped because her rapist bought her a stuffed animal.

    And articles like this, Barger, do little to present the notion that you’re “cool” with the issue of race. If anything, you keep proving yourself to be more ignorant with each passing sentence.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “that’s like expecting a little girl to forget she was raped because her rapist bought her a stuffed animal.”

    Are you saying that doesn’t work?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Depends on the animal.

  • Hope and Change?

    Claims of racism are more times than not an lame excuse for peoples laziness and stupdity….when can we end the affirmative mentality of entitlement?

    Hey Barry won didnt he?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Claims of racism are more times than not an lame excuse for peoples laziness and stupdity

    Oh sweet irony!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski
  • Cindy

    H&C’ entry into the local “stupidity contest” was declined.

    Apparently they don’t accept professionals.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski
  • Hope and Change?

    Forgive the factual analogy, but that’s like expecting an affirmative action president to actually be a leader and make the right decisions just beacuse he reads speaches from a teleprompter writtem by white left wing loon liberals……..

    “We dont want these jobs to go to whie construction workers” Robert “The Plane! The Plane!”Riech

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski
  • Hope and Change?

    We dont want these jobs to go to white construction workers” Robert “The Plane! The Plane!”Riech

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski
  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Of course the responses here are just more proof of the basic point about the liberal fraud of supposedly wanting honest racial dialogue. Nothing but sliming on me, with absolutely zero reason or explanation, other than a childish playground “Ewwww.”

    Well, that and condescension from Winn. Perhaps the problem isn’t that I’m incapable of understanding your opinion, but that I get it and reject it as bogus.

    In this particular case though, I don’t understand it precisely, in that you haven’t explained it. But you don’t need to explain it, just cluck your little self-righteous tongue a bit. After all, if you really explained your objection, we’d all get to see how petty and ridiculous it is.

    Yup, here’s your honest racial dialogue in action. Just accuse me of “insinuating” some unspecified racist sentiment, liken me to a child molester, and call me wicked and stupid.

  • Robert

    Take the Mirror Test.

    I suggest that everyone (including the Attorney General) take a close look in a mirror and study carefully what particular shade of skin they see on the face in the mirror; and while doing so, ask themselves if the color of that skin or any other color of skin – or eyes or hair for that matter – is really of any significance whatsoever, or whether, in fact, the real issue of concern is about what goes on inside the skull in the brain that is currently looking at the face in the mirror as well as in other human brains – the intelligence, knowledge, judgment, determination, character, experience, work ethic, honesty, language skills, learning ability, trustworthiness, personality and all the other qualities and capabilities related to a particular human brain.
    Racial discrimination is illegal in our country and if instances of racial discrimination are taking place the Attorney General needs to see that such cases are prosecuted. Otherwise, perhaps we can agree that skin color is trivial and irrelevant and refocus our attention on the many significant problems we currently face, and put our brains to work on things that actually do matter.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “themselves if the color of that skin or any other color of skin – or eyes or hair for that matter – is really of any significance whatsoever”

    Gotta say that’s a naive statement. Of course your hair, eyes and skin matters. You can’t be a model if you have shitty hair or an ugly face. You can’t be a news anchor unless you have a certain look. The fact is that “pretty people” (regardless of race) tend to get more promotions, are more trusted, etc. In fact, I think people who are balding are generally considered older and less confident than people with a thick head of hair.

    Not to mention one obvious fact – Holder would likely not even be an AG right now if he was white.

    Al,

    Really nice comeback on the brainless “Ewwww” comment. In my view, you made the case and point.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Thanks OA. I thought about inviting David Yeagley aka Bad Eagle over for some honest racial dialogue – but of course we don’t REALLY want any of that, do we?

  • Baronius

    Maybe we’re spoiled on BC. We’ve been talking for weeks about how Obama didn’t write the stimulus package, trusting Congressional leaders instead. So when I saw the cartoon, I didn’t equate Obama with the author of the ARRA. I can understand how people would be mistaken though, if they didn’t know the facts. If people want to protest based on a misunderstanding, I can’t stop them, but they have the responsibility to apologize.

    As for Holder, I’m reminded of the words of Thomas Sowell, that anyone who says he wants to have an honest dialogue about race really wants to have a monologue about race.

  • Dawn

    I was being kind by posting “Ewwww,” my reaction were it verbalized which clearly is the only one Al and OA can focus on, would be “Wow, Al Barger is still very ignorant.”

    Clearly, my prayers have yet to be answered, but alas, I will keep on praying that someday those who cling to their cultural and regional based biases will open their eyes and see the “whole” world, not just the world they want to see.

    I am all for open dialogue on race, because it really needs to be done for both sides to move on towards a better society. I just don’t see how having that dialogue with narrow-minded “folks” is going to get us anywhere.

    Let me know when you are ready to be open-minded to the opinions and views of others. Until then, ewww is about all I can muster.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    That is not a very effective way of diffusing the situation, Baronius – to try to account for the protest in terms of misunderstanding that Obama did not author the package. Very few people would labor under such a misconception. But he did sign it, didn’t he?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Dawn,

    Was your post ironic on purpose?

    Lollllll

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Dawn, your extended comments are if anything even more lame than “eww.” You do nothing but add more personal insults to me. You certainly show no sign of being “open minded to the opinions and views of others.”

    This is the real “dialogue” that the Holders of the world want – denounce and ostracize anyone who might be seen to disagree significantly with their little pat worldviews and then sit around jacking themselves off about how racist we all are and how cool y’all are because you are supposedly so much more enlightened.

    And I still have no idea what exactly the disagreement with me here even is. What have I said that is wrong, exactly? I’m not really even saying anything about race. I said nothing about black folk, or red or white.

    What exactly are these horrible retrograde “biases” that I’m exhibiting? Is it just that I don’t get my panties all up in an indignant bunch over every lame claim of racism?

    Maybe “eww” is all you can muster because you really have nothing else to offer but a hateful emotional reaction.

  • Baronius

    Roger, Obama did sign it. If the cartoon said, “we’re going to need someone new to sign the next stimulus package into law”, then that would be relevant. Why does the “a” in “relevant” never look right? The point is, I can sympathize with people who misread the cartoon, but that doesn’t mean they read it correctly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I don’t buy it. It’s a dodge. In an art-form which is a cartoon, you expect the wording to reflect the facts to the letter?

    Not a Laughing Matter.

  • Baronius

    I don’t care if you buy it. You don’t get to decide whether someone else is a racist or not. Look up the words “imply” and “infer” and then tell me whether the problem is in the cartoonist or in the protestors.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Now, you’re putting words in my mouth. And don’t be giving me lectures on English language.

  • Cindy

    Baronius,

    You don’t get to decide whether someone else is a racist or not.

    You don’t? You don’t make judgments about other people based on what they say and do?

    Who decides, for example, if someone is corrupt? The corrupt person? Who decides if someone is moral? You don’t make judgments like that?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I have no intention of reading this article, or, in fact, anything written by this author, for reasons well documented. So I won’t comment on it.

    I did read most of the comments [the ones not written by him]. They are remarkably harsh, from both sides, for this site.

    I would say that the comments from OA, H&C, and Baronius tend to prove Holder’s point – the very notion of a need or inclination to “discuss race” drives them wild with indignation. And brings out racial attitudes that are fairly shocking and disgusting.

    And those expressing the opposing viewpoint will get further in this particular argument by following Roger’s example rather than Jordan’s or Dawn’s [even though I basically agree with them]. Raising the decibel level plays into the hands of the Holder-haters and cartoon defenders.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    You have put your finger on the heart of the matter precisely, Handy; and I appreciate that.

  • http://www.badeagle.com David Yeagley
  • Cindy

    Yes David, you have to do HTML to put a link.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Well now Handyguy, isn’t that special? But how much more directly could you prove my basic point of not really wanting racial dialogue? You will carefully avoid reading the no-good racist SOB’s article or any of his comments.

    And yet not one of you bleeding heart PC lemmings has given any critique of my article or arguments other than to say that ol’ Al is a bad person so you shouldn’t listen to him. Which is convenient, since I doubt you have any real objection other than emotional.

    Is there some reason not obvious to me why I should regard any of you hateful children here with anything but contempt?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Well howdy, Brother Yeagley. Glad to see you. Kinda like the dreaded Cthulhu whose name must not be spoken for fear he’ll show up.

    Here, let me help you out with that link thing.
    Obama Police Tyranny
    Holder Hate Speech

  • Baronius

    Roger, I wasn’t putting words in your mouth. You’re inferring that. I want to know what you were implying when you said that my statement was a dodge.

    Be clear: do you think that the cartoon was racist? Why?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    You were insofar as you spoke of my making a judgment as to who is a racist and who is not. I made no allusion whatsoever to any such thing.

  • Baronius

    Al, I see you beat me to the punch with Handy. In his defense, he’s said that he doesn’t intend to read Ob on any subject. But he forfeits his right to comment on the threads with any credibility.

  • Baronius

    Roger, then what did you mean by saying that I was dodging? You imply that what I said was an attempt to excuse a racist cartoon.

  • Cindy

    Interesting David,

    An delusional American Indian racial segregationist.

    …but, the reputation of the police force has changed. It is definitely liberal, definitely raced-based–designed to “protect” the Negro and to denigrate the white (and other non-Negro groups, like the American Indian).

    BTW the police force’s reputation has not changed at all by the action they took. They simply did again, the same reprehensible thing, they are known to do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    How can one change the police mentality overnight, I might ask? Or within a month, for that matter?

  • Cindy

    Well, at least you found the write thread to put your hate-based ideas in.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    You were dodging by insisting the exact words accompanying the cartoon were of cardinal difference. They were not. It goes with the very idea of cartoons. So to quibble over that is is a form of subterfuge.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Only if you co-operate, Cindy. Otherwise, they’ll all find themselves talking to themselves.

  • Baronius

    Of course they were, Roger. If the monkey had been Obama, it would have had Obama’s traits. Most cartoonists use big ears. From the looks of it, this particular cartoonist labels characters, so the monkey would have “OBAMA” written across him. And if the monkey were Obama, the police would have been referring to it as the President. They would have said that Biden’s in charge now or something. The cartoonist could have done a hundred things he didn’t do.

    Instead, the cartoonist has the police identify the monkey specifically as not being Obama.

    And the cartoon wouldn’t make any sense if it were about Obama. You’d have three points of reference: the crazed monkey, the stimulus package, and Obama. What would it even mean? The substitution of the crazed monkey for the authors of the stimulus package is an odd, but understandable, connection. It says that the stimulus bill is something that only a deranged animal would have written. The substitution of the crazed monkey for Obama in the context of the stimulus package doesn’t tell the reader anything.

  • http://www.badeagle.com David Yeagley

    Well, thank you Cindy and Al for the link thing. Tried what I thought was html code, but it didn’t work. Maybe mine is out-dated.

    Anyway, I was just curious about the responses to a great piece, Mr. Berger!

    Personally, I could talk all day about the hear-warming experiences I’ve had with black people over the years. Beginning in Ohio where I went to college, later New Haven, CT, and some in the South. The positive elements are many. Everyone knows that. What we’re seeing instead is the lower element now. The criminal element on the street isn’t the real problem. It’s the LEADERS, black leaders, and their incredibly MISTAKEN attitude. It’s like, they can’t help it, or something. Did someone teach them wrongly, somewhere, away back?

    I know Edgar Allan Poe posited some interesting theories in his short novel, The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym. Wanna go there?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Your statement in #24 was:

    “Obama did sign it. If the cartoon said, ‘we’re going to need someone new to sign the next stimulus package into law’, then that would be relevant.”

    I don’t want to enlarge upon neither the scope nor the context of this discussion. So all I’m going to say, it’s an awfully thin line you’re threading here if you keep on insisting on there being a substantial difference between the two – not to mention your peripheral comments as regards your presumption as to public ignorance as to who had drafted and authored the bill and who had the authority to make it a law.

  • Cindy

    RE# 45

    Not me, if I wanted to hallucinate and discuss what I see, I’d probably have more fun taking LSD, than I would talking to racists about their personal delusions.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Actually, “The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym” is one of Poe’s most unreadable pieces; so no, I definitely don’t want to go there. But if you care to discuss his “Purloined Letter,” especially in light of Lacan’s brilliant interpretation, then you’ve got my ear.

  • Baronius

    Roger, there’s no need to expand on anything. Simply apologize. A person should be able to express his views without being judged based on his race, nor being falsely accused of racism. You violated that – or at best there’s an awfully thin line between your statements and an accusation of supporting racism.

    A reasonable person would read that cartoon and see a mockery of government. A person could mistakenly see a racial insult to Obama. That a person would see that cartoon and take the position that it can only be read as a racial insult shows disingenuousness or intellectual narrowness. Because how else can you characterize an inability to see a different point of view?

  • Cindy

    How much irony can a person stand in one day?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    As I said, Baronius, I have accused no one here of racism or prejudice – not you or the author – so it’s ludicrous of you to ask me to apologize. My objection was only to your trying to blur a very fine line, and for that I’m not going to apologize because your very statement(s), which I cited, prove that beyond any doubt.

  • Baronius

    Cindy, I think it’s more a paradox than ironic that people who think of themselves as most tolerant are quickest to judge others.

  • bliffle

    “A chimpanzee went crazy and violent and the police shot it.”

    Gee, when I saw the cartoon I thought the police went crazy and violent and shot an unarmed monkey, and then made a lame joke about it.

    At least the cop shot the monkey in the chest, unlike the recent BART case where the cop shot a commuter in the back while he was sprawled on the ground and then made a lame story about thinking he was firing his Taser not his pistol.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Bliffle,

    That’s not a very instructive comment and totally unlike. You bypass the the import of the comment by saying it’s a lame comment.

    Which really makes me wonder. So if you can bring sanity into this discussion, I’d definitely welcome it. Otherwise, I’d have to wonder.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    “unlike you,” I meant.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I think what Al and his supporters can’t quite grasp is that black attitudes such as that expressed by Eric Holder don’t exist for no reason.

    The folks who get upset at the notion that anyone would have cause to complain about racism in modern America are usually the same people who think that the 9/11 terrorists acted in a vacuum.

    Holder didn’t say what he said just to be ornery. Atta and his team didn’t hijack four planes just because it was something to do.

    Yes, Barack Obama is the President, Powell and Rice have served as Secretary of State and there are African-American congresspeople, generals, Hollywood movie stars and CEOs. And yet, for example, in the low-income housing market in which I work, over half my clients are black. And yet, the proportion of the prison population which is black is grotesquely unrepresentative of the proportion of African-Americans in society as a whole. Clearly many of these people do not have the same opportunities that Obama had. There are reasons for this, and they are most assuredly not genetic.

    For a white audience, these and many other points can’t be better expressed than in the superb essay on the subject by Tim Wise on the Counterpunch website – thanks again to Roger (wasn’t it?) for first drawing my attention to the piece.

  • Hope and Change?

    Hey left loons….King Barry and Hillary have just thrown Tibet under the bus…Hillary outs herself to be a bigger flip flopper than Kerry

    WASHINGTON (AFP) – Amnesty International and a pro-Tibet group voiced shock Friday after US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton vowed not to let human rights concerns hinder cooperation with China.

    They couldn’t have your Hillary talking? Alas, more change you can’t believe in. What a shame. When Bush was President she had a while different opinion….

    Hillary Clinton is calling on President Bush to stay away from the Olympics opening ceremonies in Beijing this summer. The Olympic torch run through Europe has been disrupted by human rights protesters. Many proposals are emerging about the level of participation that the U.S. and its athletes should adopt.

    And you guys complain about a few Araaaaaabs in Gitmo???Sorry Cindy and AsiCat….there is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or hope and change.

    Hope and Change = Flip and Flop

  • Dawn

    To be blunt (and not ironic) I think Al displays very racist tendencies (not saying he’s racist, just talking about his actions and words) and then has the temerity to bristle, spit, snarl and sneer at anyone who calls him on it. It’s not like Al was born in the 1800’s when using terms like “Negro” or comparing African-Americans to primates was acceptable. We are in the 21st Century where racial bias can’t be masked as easily.

    If Al wants people to accept his opinions, and I am not saying I necessarily disagree with some of his assertions, the least he can do is use language that doesn’t invoke pointy hats, burning crosses and lynchings.

    Do I have an axe to grind with Barger’s Bargerisms? Yeah, I do, they make me feel gross, icky and ewww. It’s tacky, tasteless and reminds me of the less savory elements of society. Sorry, just being “open and honest” in my dialogue.

    I wouldn’t sit down and discuss child-rearing with a child molester, any more than I would discuss race relations with some who really seems to inherently distrust people of color.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Point well taken, Dawn, but why waste your breath? Any form of response only legitimizes the argument.

  • Cindy

    If you really believe that Roger, then why waste your breath?

  • Cindy

    Dr.D,

    Roger wouldn’t be familiar with Tim Wise. He didn’t not actually read that article in full.

    Do you remember, by the way, the time that Tim Wise came on blogcritics to reply to someone’s criticism of him?

  • Cindy

    he did not…not didn’t not

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Don’t try to pick a fight!

    I was addressing Dawn, and then, in a limited sense, Baronius – and that, on a peripheral matter. So if you want to question my integrity or the consistency of what I’m saying, then I suggest you had better fly a kite.

  • Cindy

    lol :-)

    that was funny. okay. point taken.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I’ve read it Doc, enough to get the full gist. And as I indicated earlier, I do not disagree with Liberation theology, black, white or whatever. But I don’t see the relevance of the question.
    I’ve already explained my position, and I’m not going to do it again.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Of course, Cindy, it was you that originally posted the Wise article. Sorry for the misattribution.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And now you mention it, I do vaguely remember him commenting. Can’t remember where or in what context though. I know Dan (Miller) has a little tool he uses to track down comments, but I can never remember what it’s called. One of these days I’ll bookmark it.

  • Cindy

    Dr.D,

    Comment #116 = Tim Wise

    Dan’s comment tracker is only good for 30 days.

  • Cindy

    He was easy to find as I just went through the leaderboard to anyone’s name and removed the 30 days from the end and changed the name to Tim Wise, who only made one comment.

  • Cindy

    wasalive.com is Dan’s tool

  • Cindy
  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Thanks Cindy.

    I haven’t been able to get to the BC Leaderboard for some time. An error message appears when I click on the link. How are you getting there?

  • Cindy

    Through the home page.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    How ironic that Holder should get blamed for this minor gaffe when he has so much worse in his record and should probably never have been confirmed.

    Dave

  • Hope and Change?

    Cindy… dont you care thate we are abandoning Tibet?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    A clarification, Baronius. It is the author of this article, not OA, whose pieces and comments I am ignoring. Maybe that makes me a priss-pot. Big damn hairy deal.

    The Post cartoonist has a history of in-your-face [and to many people, not at all amusing] content, some of it stretching the boundaries of taste about gays and various ethnic groups.

    I’m not in the least proposing censorship, but that cartoon and others are deliberately tasteless without any compensating interesting point, or wit. So when the Post pretends it can’t imagine why anyone was offended, it’s being disingenuous to say the least.

    And when writers and commenters on here take the same line, I can only roll my eyes: either you’re thick or you’re insensitive, or both.

    For Wonkette’s take on all this, which really is funny, take a look at Bring Me the Head of Tom Daschle, in which they look at several ‘edgy’ recent political cartoons, and ask [and answer] the musical question: “Could this cartoon be improved by adding a mincing gay or a dead monkey?”

    This is just in case you think I’m some damn sensitive libbrull.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    For those of you who haven’t already, take a look at the link Roger provided in #8. It shows ten “greatest hits” by Post cartoonist Sean Delonas — the Hope and Change? of the newspaper world.

    If these cartoons are your idea of Big Laffs, then…let’s just say we should never have lunch.

  • Hope and Change?

    handyguy…I dont remember you being this alarmed at Bush or Palin cartoons?

    Not that I am accusing you or anything but one could call you a disengenuos phony….

    In addition, there is another race related fraud being hoisted on American taxpayers…King Barry has announced — “An Office Of Urban Affairs” to be headed up by another do nothing affirmative action politcian out of the Bronx!

    Hey what about the “Office of SUBurban Affairs” headed by an unqualified white political hack? Hey its only fair in our post racial America!!!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Secretary Clinton’s actual words:

    “That doesn’t mean that questions of Taiwan, Tibet, human rights, the whole range of challenges that we often engage on with the Chinese, are not part of the agenda,” she said from Seoul, South Korea. “But we pretty much know what they’re gonna say.

    “We have to continue to press them, but our pressing on those issues can’t interfere with the global economic crisis, the global climate-change crisis and the security crises. We have to have a dialogue that leads to an understanding and co-operation on each of those.”

    I understand the rights-groups’ reactions, but I can live with these words.

  • Hope and Change?

    HandyGuy…gee..I am in San Francisco several time a year…the city celebrates its Drag Queens like a national treasure!…So why is a cartoon of Drag Quees offensibe when gays embrace and flaunt it at every chance theey get..

    Starting to sound like a disengenuos phony….

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    It’s not like Dave to just drop in a one-liner and scurry away.

    Dave, you are utterly wrong about Holder’s ‘dangerous’ record on individual rights. I want you to point out when he actually does something [as Attorney General] along those lines that match your irresponsible, alarmist articles. You’ll be waiting a long time.

    And you continue to ignore his focus on Guantanamo, detention policy and torture. His stands on these issues are not only forceful and well-informed, but a crucially important change from the Bush justice department.

    The speech yesterday was not a gaffe. He said exactly what he intended to say, and when you draw criticism from Michelle Malkin, it’s a pretty good sign you’re right.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    With every ill-informed, badly written comment, H&C, you just dig yourself in deeper.

    However many times you may have been to San Francisco, if that’s all you can think of to say about it, you’re just demonstrating a complete lack of both brains and taste. It’s one of the most beautiful and multi-faceted cities in the world, and most people, straight or gay, who have been there, would agree with me.

    I don’t look at political cartoons all that frequently, but if there were any about Bush and Palin as crude as the ones Gawker reprints, I would hate them too. Sick humor can be great, but it also needs to be witty to work.

    This is one reason your own attempts fall so short so frequently.

  • Hope and Change?

    “His stands on these issues” and they are not his. Everyone knows this guy us a light weight. He carrying out the bidding for the “liberal white folk” running the white House…Pelosi and Reid. He was acted and was treated like an affirnmative action appointment under Clinton and not much has changed….

    What did Ted Rall the left-wing syndicated cartoonist for United Press Syndicate call Condalezza Rice…..a “House N_____R”.

    You liberals should be ashamed of yourselves!

  • Hope and Change?

    My attempts dont fall just your inability to see the truth through your narrow mindedness….

    And dont misquote me…..I never put San Francisco down…great City great food…

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “I want you to point out when he actually does something [as Attorney General] along those lines that match your irresponsible, alarmist articles. You’ll be waiting a long time.”

    I thought attorney generals merely said things to the media in order for people to react and respond to them, usually saying they deserve to be fired. Y’mean AGs actually do things?

  • Cindy

    H&C,

    Yes I care about abandoning Tibet. And I think very little of the lying, war-hawk Hillary Clinton.

  • Baronius

    Handy, there are only two choices: racial insensitivity, and racism. I hope that I am insensitive to race.

  • Hope and Change?

    When she took the job Hillary said is carrying out Obamas policies….not hers!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Indeed, she is expressing his policy, H&C. And Cindy and I differ pretty strongly on this one.

    Even Human Rights Watch doesn’t actually think Clinton “doesn’t care” about Tibet. She didn’t say that, and no sane person would.

  • Cindy

    Obama is not my candidate H&C. But, I am not just going to make remarks about him. When I have something I disagree with I’ll post it.

  • Dawn

    One thing is perfectly clear, the cartoon wasn’t funny. That’s the real crime.

    I don’t think it was meant to be a connection between Obama and the chimp shooting story, but certainly someone at the Post should have had the brains to have realized that the connection would be made.

    I mean DUH!, people are extra sensitive these days. If would have helped had it been funny, but sadly, it wasn’t just like all his other cartoons.

  • Hope and Change?

    “I understand the rights-groups’ reactions, but I can live with these words.” beacuse the truth doesnt match the promises made by King Barry…and anytime reality proves that I have been made of fool of by a southside huckster from Chicago…I will ignore the facts.

    Hmmmmm…all of the Human Rigts Groups are up in arms…but abandoning Tibet is ok with Handyguy?

    Sound like Selective Liberal Loon Syndrome..

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    there are only two choices: racial insensitivity, and racism. I hope that I am insensitive to race.

    This is a clever aphorism, but I don’t think it applies even to all the comments you have made on this thread, and on the “What’s Going On” thread, where your comment about Black History Month was, well, eye-opening.

    And when H&C and the author of this article say something that is borderline or over-the-line on race, as they often have and do, it would be helpful if a few of you from the right would call them on it too. You [the collective you, not picking on Baronius] are conspicuous by your silence.

  • Hope and Change?

    “It would have helped had it been funny”…

    Dawn, how can you deny that shooting to death a deranged chimp after it just ripped an innocent womans face off…isnt funny!

    C’mon wheres your sense of humor?

  • Cindy

    Handy,

    H&C,

    Handy believes in a government. I don’t. None of them are my candidates. We disagree by definition.

    But I dislike Hillary a lot for voting for the war in Iraq and also she did not try to get China back on the list for human rights violations.

  • Hope and Change?

    handyguy…I thought we need to stop “being cowards” and have open conversations about race? Isnt that what Holder told you to do?

    Gee…you are really pulling from the left wing play book…1) when you cannot argue the facts, attack the messenger…2)when that fails…call them a racists.

    Please……

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Yelling insults is not the same as having a conversation.

    You have shown no interest in having a conversation with anybody about anything, ever.

    And since that is your only mode, I am disengaging. Total ignore. Yell all you want. Have a big ole whoopee party with yourself.

    I said I would do this before but I slipped. No more.

  • Hope and Change?

    Oh Iforget —Number 4 from the left wing play book

    Run Awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

  • Jordan Richardson

    I prefer “Run Awayyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!” to numbers 3-8 of the H&C playbook: babble incoherently to conceal an utter lack of understanding and education on the most basic of issues.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    And when H&C and the author of this article say something that is borderline or over-the-line on race, as they often have and do, it would be helpful if a few of you from the right would call them on it too. You [the collective you, not picking on Baronius] are conspicuous by your silence.

    You make the mistaken assumption that we actually READ anything H&C writes.

    Plus, if we want to read crazy rantings about racial issues we can just follow the links in the article.

    Dave

  • Jordan Richardson

    Many Americans fail to realize that their history is short. Race-baiting articles like this knowingly push envelopes that many in the United States were stuffed into. After all, the Civil Rights Movement for African-Americans is less than 50 years old. It is very likely many posters here lived through the horrific racism and experienced the prejudice firsthand.

    Yet here’s Barger and his ilk throwing around “negro” and tossing his hands in the air because he “can’t possibly understand” why somebody would construe this cartoon and this sort of rhetoric as possibly having something to do with race. Here’s Barger ignorantly setting foot into the waters of a pool that hasn’t even come close to cooling off, with lynchings and overt racism STILL taking place and race/hate crimes STILL occupying headlines across America and the world.

    And he has the audacity to suggest that everything should be “cool” because they gave some African-Americans some top level positions, as though they’ve been done an enormous favour by the white power structure and should simply forget about the process, the struggle, and the pain. And in forgetting about the pain, men like Barger expect that the African-Americans should also forget about race in general – even though for many it is still very, very real. Barger and his ilk haven’t lived the experience (nor have I), yet he claims to know when appeasement should satisfy those very wounded souls in his country’s history. And in doing so, he claims that he should also use the word “negro” freely and bizarrely in discussing the very issue he pleads that he is so “cool” with now.

    In many ways, it seems like Barger and those who share his views are trying to fumble through their own understanding of race because empathy is not their strong suit. Everyone is trying to “rip them off” or “take their money.” It’s hard to reason and empathize when you live in fear. But what Barger doesn’t get and, indeed, what many Americans still don’t get is that the United States is still an extremely young country.

    If that means that there needs to be more sensitivity than usual for a while until things truly are “cool,” maybe that should be a concession people who love and care for each other could truly make. Maybe compassion, understanding, TRUE tolerance, and empathy are values the American people should strive to share again.

    Or maybe Barger and Co. will continue to push appeasement, silence, ignorance, and divisiveness.

    But what do I care, it’s your country. You break it, you bought it.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Most folks on here, left or right, don’t have a “playbook.” A few do. And if it is true that Dave ignores them, it’s a good example to follow. I hope the person in question noticed Dave’s comment.

    There’s a lot of valuable discussion on here. It gets trashed up sometimes by a few trashy minds.

  • Mr West

    It is amazing that there are such good race relations with people like Eric Holder trying to bring racial differences to the surface and obsess with them. I attend a diverse college and have Jewish, Asian, White, Black, Hispanic friends, etc. But I never feel the need to have frank discussions with them, oh, look, your eyes are different than mine, your skin is different, etc. This would be awkward, antisocial, and offputting. Why should I care what a person looks like as long as they have a sense of humor, etc. Technically, the British starved the Irish hundreds of years ago. Should British Americans and Irish Americans feel the need to grieve, obsess, toss and turn over this? No, of course not. My “ethnic” friends, in fact, are the ones who are comfortable with all types of people, etc. I would never practice “affirmative action” with friends, either I like you or I do not. It is those crusading identity obsessed people on campus who am am least comfortable around. I hate to even refer or have to categorize some of my friends as “ethnic,” but Holder and others just can’t let Cultural Marxism die.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Mr. West, you don’t get to dictate how others should feel about their history, even if your personal experience suggests that you can. I don’t presume to tell Jews when they should just drop “that whole Holocaust thing” even though my Jewish friends and German friends all joke about it. It’s just not my call to make. I choose, instead, to try to be sensitive and empathetic to how others are feeling. And that’s not a fucking political issue.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    In addition, using the history between the British and the Irish to illustrate how not to dwell on the past is a really bad example.

    I’m British. I went on a bus tour of Ireland a few years ago, and inevitably some of the historical sites associated with the Famine, transportation and various battles between the two sides were visited and discussed. Some of those events happened over three hundred years ago. Nevertheless, the barely concealed anger in our otherwise Irishly affable tour guide’s voice as he described what had happened at the sites was palpable.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    If you read the entire text of the Holder speech, it’s pretty far from inflammatory. The “nation of cowards” line got all the press of course, but very little else in the speech is that provocative.

    In fact, he demonstrates some ambivalence that there should be such an “artificial construct” as Black History Month, as opposed to American History Month. Maybe he and Baronius are not so far apart after all.

    But when the first black president got 90-plus percent of black votes and only 43% of white votes, there’s probably some discussion about race still to be had. “Discussing race” and accusing each other of racism need not be the same thing.

    It really is a subject that many people avoid, are embarrassed by. That’s such an evident fact that it’s hard to understand why there’s a controversy about stating it.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Jordan- Thank you for making a lucid comment to which I can respond. All this other foolishness has just been hysterical name calling and cheesy psychological profiling – I’m looking your way, Mrs Olsen.

    But slavery is past and Jim Crow is long dead. And black folks are NOT being lynched, not in many decades. I have neither said or implied that I would think such things to be other than ugly crimes. I’m generally opposed to people being mistreated, whatever their ethnic heritage.

    None of that applies to anything I’m addressing in this article. No one has been mistreated here, other than maybe Delonas.

    But it appears that you’re arguing that I’m “racist” or something morally equivalent if I don’t shudder in extra-princess-and-the-pea sensitivity over anything that someone might even arbitrarily decide to misconstrue as racism.

    I tend to suspect that stupid overblown reactions to nothing such as this Delonas cartoon stem mostly much less from hurt feelings than from cheap opportunism. Paging Rev Sharpton.

    And even if it is from hurt feelings, that doesn’t mean that it is appropriate to give them precedence over reason and calm. There’s just no legitimate reason to be picketing and protesting over this simple cartoon by which the author meant nothing racial to begin with.

    I consider it neither fair to Delonas nor to the true better good of black folk to indulge this kind of foolishness. You CAN go through life choosing to feel victimized and powerless because Whitey is still holding you down.

    Except that he’s not, and the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson who make a fortune off of pandering to our worst paranoia are evil vultures. They hurt black folk worst of all, stoking feelings of powerlessness and victimhood for their own power and agrrandizement – and incidentally sometimes cause unnecessary heartburn to some random white guy like this Delonas.

    If I meet an old black woman whose brother was lynched in the 50s, I’ll be entirely sympathetic. And if she’s a little hinky about white folk, that’s understandable.

    But some pampered 20 – 30 year old black guy using the oppression of people long ago and unknown to have something to bitch about, not so much. And when I hear hysterical and irrational cries of racism from rich white folk when there isn’t any – well, I’m just going to be inclined to offer that they consider drinking a big ol’ frosty glass of shut-the-hell-up.

    No, Eric Holder did not come up with this little speech just for no reason. He came up with it because that kind of BS has been a winning political line.

    Dawn makes up out of the blues some lame conjecture that I’m a “racist” because I supposedly don’t trust black people – but she’s so hysterical that she doesn’t realize her own racism in the premise. It’s racism to talk about trusting or not trusting black folk, or white folk, or whatever ethnic group.

    I trust some black folk I know quite much and there’s some I wouldn’t trust to walk my dog. Depends on the person.

    But I care not a whit whether some PC cops think I’m “cool” or not. I disregard the ridiculous and arbitrary banishment of the word “Negro.” I don’t recognize the authority of your PC grammar police. If your perception of whether you are cool depends on the opinion of others, then you’re definitely not cool.

    Self-righteous fools can carry on all day accusing me of “racism,” but they’re just wrong. As that regards this article and the comments, note that I’ve said nothing for or against any racial group.

    Finally, again, the whole bunch of attempts at de-humanizing and discrediting me here prove my basic point about the basic dishonesty of liberals claiming that they want more open and honest racial dialogue. No you don’t. Look at this thread.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    “You want we should elect an affirmative action candidate for president, someone not vaguely qualified or experienced for the job mostly just because he’s black? That would be risking grave danger and damage to the nation just to prove a stupid point, wouldn’t it? God, I hope we’d never be that foolish.”

    Heh, that made me LOL

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Handyguy, Jordan, Cindy…

    I just wanted to take time out and let you guys know how much I enjoy your posts here. You all have said pretty much what needs to be said, but I’ll put my two cents in anyway.

    I’m a freelance cartoonist. Some of my stuff is controversial. I’m not subtle. But I know what point I’m trying to make when I spend hours hunched over my table. I’ve taken my share of criticism over the years, but one thing you learn pretty fast is that if you have to explain the joke…

    It ain’t a good one.

    Sean Delonas and NY Post Editor Col Allan, in my estimation, knew the historical implications of that cartoon, and what inferences could be drawn by its publication. The claim that the cartoon was derived from a Shakespearean metaphor is made preposterous by the fact that the tabloid itself is written at a 4th Grade reading level.

    But alas, this is a perfect Eric Holder moment. I don’t want Delonas or Col Allan to be censored in the least. Oh no. I want them to stop being COWARDS.

    I would want them to stand up, and be every bit as courageous as the people who spoke out on camera in Alexandra Pelosi’s new documentary Right America: Feeling Wronged. It’s required watching for all blog posters to this thread.

    Don’t get me wrong, now. Hollywood can’t make more frightening scenes than what I saw in that video. But these people were RAW…and you get to put faces to some of more incendiary posts made by our friends Al and H&C. That’s why Holder is correct on this, as he has to wade through a Department of Justice that for the past few years had miscreants like Bradley Schlozman in the Civil Rights Division of all places.

    And just a little side question, Al…

    Since you’re dead set against the Stimulus bill, and all those tax dollars going to give Americans who don’t pay income taxes around $400 each, could you show me your post opposing the Surge in Iraq, where since 2007, we’ve been paying the Sunni Insurgent group “Sons of Iraq” (who also pay no American income taxes) $10 a day Not to attack the U.S. –which comes to around $800,000 a day, 24-7-365?

    –Cobra

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Ya know, reading the inevitable ‘you are IGNORANT’ comments, it occurred to me that those who talk this way are usually the ignorant ones about ‘race relations’ in the USA.

    Try to talk to a liberal or a conservative who thinks he can pander by playing along with this crap, and you will spend hours trying to educate them about things like black crime rates, the myth of ‘black poverty’, and the corrosive effects of govt welfare upon blacks in general.

    It’s usually pointless, but for some reason, I keep trying to educate liberals and multiculturalists.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Al,

    The Jim Crow laws didn’t come to an end until 1965 with the signing of the Voting Rights Act. African-Americans were only allowed to vote as equal citizens less than 50 years ago. That isn’t that long ago. Al Sharpton was 11-years-old then. My parents were in their twenties.

    In 1981, two KKK members in Alabama randomly picked out a 19-year-old black man (Michael Donald) and murdered him. In 1998, Shawn Allen Berry, Lawrence Russel Brewer, and ex-convict John William King murdered James Byrd, Jr. in Texas. You can look up the grotesque details of these cases on your own.

    You state that the feelings of those who were offended by the cartoon are “stupid,” “evil,” and so forth. But you don’t get that you don’t get to judge how people feel. And you especially don’t get to judge how people feel when racism is still alive and well within your borders and in our global community. You don’t get to decide that!

    Whether things are “okay” now or not is not your call to make. It’s not my call to make. It takes time, sensitivity, empathy, compassion, and so forth. You or I had nothing to do with the horrific crimes perpetrated against other ethnicities. I had nothing to do personally with the treatment of Indians in Canada and you had nothing personally to do with the treatment of Chinese or the African American people in your country. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t adopt a sense of EXTREME SENSITIVITY towards individuals that may be impacted by those events. Those events and that treatment is still very much a part of their history. It isn’t a distant memory, as you purport it to be. It is very real, very tragic, very now.

    That “young black person” you claim has nothing to do with has a grandmother, a mother, and distant relatives that were very likely slaves, treated poorly by whites, and so forth. You don’t earn the right to tell them to “move on” because you doubt their emotional experience.

    There’s just no legitimate reason to be picketing and protesting over this simple cartoon by which the author meant nothing racial to begin with.

    It doesn’t matter what his intentions were, as stunning as that might be to say. If I unwittingly offend somebody, I apologize. I don’t issue a half-assed apology that says “I’m only sorry if you and I agree politically,” either. I fucking apologize because it isn’t my right to dictate how they feel about their history, their experience, and so forth.

    I don’t think you’re a racist, Al. I don’t think you intend to come across that way. I do, however, think you are hopelessly lacking in empathy, compassion, and sensitivity because you assume to know how others should react and behave in light of years of history that you don’t understand. You think racism is dead and buried and you fail to realize that some people might be more sensitive to the topic than others. It isn’t dead, it isn’t buried, and we (not just you) have NO such right.

    I implore all people to a lifestyle of compassion, empathy, understanding, and tolerance. If HONEST mistakes were made, there is forgiveness there. But it’s the smug, “how dare you think I’m racist” attitude that really drives those protests and really stokes this fire. Try a little humility every now and then. You might be surprised at the outcome.

  • Jordan Richardson

    It’s usually pointless, but for some reason, I keep trying to educate liberals and multiculturalists.

    Yeah, trying to “educate” people usually takes some background in the subject that isn’t couched in outmoded philosophy, arrogance, and divisive rhetoric.

  • Arch Conservative

    It’s kind of hard to have a an honest and frank discussion about race when the average liberal mindset is….

    “you don’t support Obama? racist!”

    Yet these same people think nothing of calling Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, or Michael Steele, Uncle Tom because they don’t toe the leftist liberal line.

  • Cannonshop

    #113 Arch, even eliminating the factor you describe, there’s no such thing as an “Honest and frank discussion of Race”. You can discuss Politics, you can discuss Religion, you can even have frank and honest discussions of sex and sports.

    “Race” is a remnant of the idea that people of a different colour, or who have certain features, are above or below one another on a fundamentally un-change-able level. Regardless of what side you come down on, if “Race” is important to you, you’re basically feeding the bigot.

    It takes Work to be colour-blind, to recognize an “american” as an “American” no matter what they look like-it takes work to judge people by what they DO, it’s so much easier for the Lazy to just judge on skin-tone, (and that’s positive OR negative judgement-it’s just as hard to recognize that someone can be an asshat as it is to realize they can be an angel). It’s easy to be free of that taint when you only see a person’s word and record written down, and hard to be free of it when you’re looking at their picture or speaking to them in person-it’s worth the effort to do.

    And that’s why you can’t HAVE a “Frank and honest discussion about Race”-because when “Race” matters, then the frank-and-honest part are relegated to the back of the pile, it becomes ALL that matters to most people…because people are fundamentally lazy, judgemental, shallow scum-bags who’ll do the intellectually dishonest thing regardless of whether or not it’s the right thing.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Race” is a remnant of the idea that people of a different colour, or who have certain features, are above or below one another on a fundamentally un-change-able level.”

    You’re right Cannon, race, for the most part is an arbitrary social construct that basically says an individual should think or behave in a certain way based on the color of his or her skin. But this concept is so ingrained in our society that to ignore it heps no one.

  • Arch Conservative

    Included in that social construct I forgot to mention as Cannon point out is not only that one’s behavior but one’s value as a human being is or even should be in part or on the whole determined by skin color or the perception of race.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Todd,

    I appreciate your comments. I don’t agree with them, but I appreciate them.

    That being said, what’s your world view?

    Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?

    That’s what I believe is the “key” to the race discussion.

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    Hi Cobra,

    I looked through your cartoons in the wee hours. Great stuff. I take it we live both live in NJ?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Hi Cindy,

    Thanks for the compliment! I was born in Jersey City and raised in Woodbridge Twp.

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    RE #114, 115, 116

    I want to respond to Cannon and Arch. To open a dialog rather than close one. I’m having a lot of trouble coming up with an idea that can span this gap in viewpoints. But, I’ll keep thinking as I believe there is some possibility of doing that.

  • M ark

    How about this:

    If the centralized capitalist state(s) were hog-tied, owners and workers would be on a more level political playing field where ‘new accommodations’ could be achieved.

  • M ark

    oops – wrong thread…my bad

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Jordan- First, I do very much appreciate your tone of civility. Thank you.

    However, you’ve got the sensitivity meter temperature set to “broil.” A warm glow of empathy is pro-social and feels good all around. However, utter unlimited seeking after looking to be completely sensitive to every possible inadvertent slight at all times is unhealthy and at some point condescending and will just burn up your soul and theirs.

    It’s nice to be nice, but I know that I don’t get or want everyone to be 100% tiptoeing around every possible way that my itty feelings can be hurt. Hey, my life has been rougher than a lot of young black folks. How’s about everybody worry about respecting MY little feelings? You don’t get to dictate how ol’ Al feels, and perhaps everyone across the country should refrain from saying anything that I decide to find offensive or hurtful.

    I don’t presume to judge how other people feel. I have a pretty good idea in some cases though, and that it’s not really what they’re claiming in the case of known demagogues like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. But doubtless there are some black folk who got twangs of honestly bad feelings from this damned silly little cartoon.

    But that doesn’t mean that hypersensitivity is the appropriate attitude to take. It’s not healthy to encourage or indulge that. Life’s rough, and you need to cowboy up. It didn’t much deal with race specifically, but for a healthy attitude about such things I recommend the classic Titus sitcom.

    But then you say of me “you are hopelessly lacking in empathy, compassion, and sensitivity.” You SO don’t know me. I’m a hell of a sensitive, compassionate guy. If I had any friends, you could ask them.

    But there are times, such as the furor over this cartoon, where supposed sensitivity and compassion are not really beneficial to the recipient. Rather they become more like an emotional self-indulgence of the bearer – something to make them feel good about how great they are for being supposedly “compassionate” rather than anything socially appropriate or beneficial to the recipient of the condescending compassion.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra- Thanks for dropping by. But I have to take issue with you over your comments regarding Todd Yarling. “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?” Oh, come on now. Where in his comments did you even begin to get an idea that such an insulting and inherently derogatory question was appropriate?

    Having known Brother Yarling for many years, I would venture to guess that he’s actually lived among poor black folk more than most of the bleeding heart white liberals protesting here. He’s just not consumed by self-indulgent romantic notions about the black community. In my experience, this is common among white folk who actually live amongst and have actual substantive personal ties to poor black folks.

    However, I will concede that Yarling is some kind of deviant freak. I’m just saying that you probably shouldn’t trust him alone with your livestock – particularly if you have a comely goat.

  • Cindy

    Al,

    I was born in Newark, NJ as were both my parents. I played on the street, like all the neighborhood children.

    Just to straighten out those preconceptions of yours.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Howdy Miss Cindy. Glad to see you made the party. But I would have no presumption to know your personal background.

    But I can have great compassion and empathy for someone who has survived having to grow up in the stinking hellhole that is New Jersey. That must have been tough.

    Wait – am I allowed to crack jokes on Jersey, or is that going to get me another visit from the sensitivity cops?

  • Cindy

    Of course, by the time I was old enough to actually ask my father if he was really called “Little Cheech” in the gang called “The Prowlers”, he just said my mother was talking about his brother. Of course mom knew the difference between my dad and his older brother “Big Cheech” in the Italian gang–which had racial tensions with black gangs even then.

  • Cindy

    Hello Al,

    NJ? This is the state that jokes were invented to make fun of, no?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Great op-ed about racial bias in today’s NY Times — not nearly as divisive as many of the comments on this thread [mine included] have been. It focuses on academic research — and manages to be both entertaining and enlightening.

    An excerpt:

    “I take exception to Holder’s language, but not his line of reasoning. Calling people cowards is counterproductive. It turns the conversation into a confrontation — moving it beyond the breach of true dialogue and the pale of real understanding.

    That said, frank conversations are always welcomed. But, before we start, it might be helpful to have a better understanding of the breadth and nature of racial bias.

    Project Implicit, a virtual laboratory maintained by Harvard, the University of Washington and the University of Virginia, has administered hundreds of thousands of online tests designed to detect hidden racial biases. In tests taken from 2000 to 2006, they found that three-quarters of whites have an implicit pro-white/anti-black bias.

    (Blacks showed racial biases, too, but unlike whites, they split about evenly between pro-black and pro-white. And, blacks were the most likely of all races to exhibit no bias at all.)

    In addition, a 2006 study by Harvard researchers published in the journal Psychological Science used these tests to show how this implicit bias is present in white children as young as 6 years old, and how it stays constant into adulthood.

    (You can take the test yourself.)

    Now that we know this, are we ready to talk? Maybe not yet. Talking frankly about race is still hard because it’s confusing and uncomfortable.

    White people don’t want to be labeled as prejudiced, so they work hard around blacks not to appear so.

    A study conducted by researchers at Tufts University and Harvard Business School and published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found that many whites — including those as young as 10 years old — are so worried about appearing prejudiced that they act colorblind around blacks, avoiding “talking about race, or even acknowledging racial difference,” even when race is germane.

    Interestingly, blacks thought that whites who did this were more prejudiced than those who didn’t.”

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    At Al: Thanks bro, and I was thinking much the same about you. I know you, and I know that don’t have a bigoted bone in your body, either.

    I will continue to take exception, however, to the phony idea that blacks are being held back by racists and bigots and that racism (which does happen from time to time) is the number one issue keeping blacks down.

    Jordan Richardson was able to point out 2 instances where KKK types killed a black guy over the past 2 decades.

    How many blacks were killed by other blacks just yesterday in this country? A lot more than 2!

    Now seeing as blacks are killing each other at rates which are about 10 times the rate of whites killing each other, and that only about 4% of blacks who are killed are killed by white people, please explain then why all the focus is on the rare racist killing, and tell me why I am a bigot for saying black on black crime is a far more pressing issue to black people than the odd instance of demonstrably racist violence?

    It just doesn’t add up, and this is why I say liberals and multiculturalists are ignorant, and they will not listen to you when you quote these facts.

    To hear the liberals and the media tell it, everyday in America, blacks are getting lynched and drug behind pickup trucks and tied to trees and beaten, when this is just plain not true!

    But some blacks are getting tired of the BS and refusing to play along, like Le Shawn Barber and others.

    I’m not playing either, and I truly wish liberals would get out of this enabling mindset which does nothing for blacks and serves only to make themselves feel superior to the ‘ignorant’ and the ‘backward’, when it is themselves who are ignorant and backward.

    These people are helping to keep blacks down in ways that the KKK could only dream of, and this is why I say the liberal mindset truly is evil, and for love to flourish, liberalism and secular humanism, multiculturalism, must be driven off the face of the earth.

  • Cindy

    Handy,

    That is an interesting site. I don’t mind sharing my result.

    Your data suggest a slight automatic preference for European American compared to African American.

  • Cindy

    Reading some of the opinions here, particularly those of some who believe they have the the “right” perspective and want to help others gain insight (I would be in this group.), I am inclined to wonder, how many of you read the essay Dr.D posted in #56?

    If you did not read the essay. I’m wondering, why not?

    Here is that essay by Tim Wise, Of National Lies and Racial America. It’s my hope that Arch, Cannon, Todd, et Al too, might have something to say about what he’s saying here.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Wise’s essay is excellent, but it is unlikely to change any minds on the right: they will find it deliberately inflammatory. Which of course is part of the point.

    I admired a lot of Rev Wright’s stinging rhetoric, and regretted that the caricatured version of it that got played in the press eventually forced Obama to do the safe political thing and dump him.

    He had it closer to correct the first time, in the “More Perfect Union” speech a year ago, when he said he could no more disown Wright than his own grandmother [now departed, God rest her soul].

  • Cindy

    Wise’s essay is excellent, but it is unlikely to change any minds on the right…

    I am inclined to agree Handy. But, I am only hoping to start a discussion. With struggling and clashing, it’s possible to make tiny gains in mutual understanding, maybe.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Animals don’t always like to be petted or bothered with. Even cats and dogs will at times let you know hey, not now. People cannot just pester an animal all the time. You have to know when they want their space. The chimp was probably sick of that too. I feel for him.
    As for the cartoon- you see urgency that this chimp is no longer happy being someone’s pet.
    A tragic story to say the least but animals do not always become “one of the family” without some therapy it would appear. So just because a human gets hurt, do I side with them? No, I do not.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    The political side to referendum, Obama speculates what makes the country run. He will be handed former complaints that keep public servants in work. It is continual that people will have to look within more than for someone else to do it. If you want change, show someone how it’s done! What does the world owe you anyhow? For me, it owes me plenty. But for the rest of us? You have only two legs and two hands. Guess what? Unless you can afford a bionic replacement, you better take damn good care of yourselves.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Oh lordy the blessed virgin has gotten into the act. Yikes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Say that again! I haven’t understood one word out of that diatribe.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Elle est fou, je crois.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    You’re going to have to translate this, Handy.
    Too lazy to go into the French dictionary.
    But I think I get the meaning, roughly.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Mary is Al’s very own cyberstalker. I’m surprised she doesn’t show up more often on his threads.

    And yes, Roger, I think you understand the meaning very well.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    But Handy, that should be folle, not fou.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Only by intuition, Doc, not the form of words. I used to speak French fluently once.
    I didn’t know, BTW, that Al had secret backups, partners in crime.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Dreadful- I can understand how one might get confused, but Miss Mary is NOT a cyberstalker, but my internet pal. The intensity of her vision can sometimes be a bit overwhelming and leave one scratching their head, but that’s the way of prophets and oracles.

    And Roger, I got secret backup partners in crime. If I needed something bad done, I got people in low places. Which reminds me, in the merchandising for the big Watchmen movie, they’re putting out Rohrschach masks. I’ma be needing one of those.

    But I certainly wouldn’t be calling on the mother of Christ for criminal acts. That would be REALLY bad. Seems like that’d be one of the surest ways to get on her son’s shit list.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    RE: comment 130 I notice that no one has had any response to Brother Yarling. He really made the biggest point that needed to be made in all this mess.

    In short, black folk overall are their own worst enemies. People are all up in arms like Al Barger’s supposed insensitivity or a Delonas cartoon are f’ing up black folk. Perhaps you might consider focusing on black-on-black crime.

    Or if you wanted to address things in the media that hurt black folk, you might instead consider the minstrel show that is much of hip-hop culture. The hero worship of ugly violent misogynistic misanthropic jerks like Dr Dre by a generation of black kids (and wiggers) has done more to hurt black folk and gotten more black folk ruined or killed than every white schmuck in a KKK robe through all of Jim Crow.

    If you think this wrong, dig out statistics on black crime, illegitimacy rates and education from the 1950s and compare them to statistic of the modern era. Particularly, I bet you’d find a LOT less black folk murdered even in the Jim Crow south than today at the hands of their brothers.

  • Cindy

    Al,

    I replied to your friend and to you. I recall having done that before with the same result. Not a problem. Some people ignore what they choose to not understand. I think you are your own worst enemy Al.

    I suggest you look at crime statistics yourself. Then perhaps you would care to share with me, why crime rates have decreased while black incarceration has increased. You can find the posts referring to the U.S. government crime and incarceration information here in Jason Campbell’s thread.

  • Cindy

    Oh, Baronius ignored those questions too, along with the other information to challenge his views about the private prison system.

    I am not sure what impression people, who don’t care for a challenge to their ideas, think they are leaving. It’s particularly mind-boggling when these same people later claim things like Baronius does, to wit:

    Because how else can you characterize an inability to see a different point of view?

  • Cindy

    Of course Al, I do understand it may be way too much trouble to read a 10 minute essay where it concerns such a trivial matter as determining one’s all-encompassing view of one’s fellow humans.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Miss Cindy asks why crime rates have decreased while black incarceration has increased.

    That seems pretty obvious – though I would prefer not to frame it specifically just as incarceration of blacks. It would seem likely that crime has gone down as we have incarcerated more criminals (black, white and other) because when the criminals are locked up, they’re not out commiting more crimes. That would be the main good justification for locking them up.

  • Cindy

    Al,

    That seems pretty obvious – though I would prefer not to frame it specifically just as incarceration of blacks.

    Well, the Brother Al, I guess your preference does not figure in with the facts. As the facts are that crime rate have decreased and incarceration of specifically black men and women has increased. Those figures are according to your government…they aren’t suppositions from my imagination. They aren’t what I would prefer to think.

    It would seem likely that crime has gone down as we have incarcerated more criminals (black, white and other) because when the criminals are locked up, they’re not out commiting more crimes. That would be the main good justification for locking them up.

    But, this is not in accordance with the facts. The facts are crime has dropped and we continue to incarcerate more people for non-criminal offenses. We are the only nation in the world that has so large of a percentage of people locked up.

    Or do you support a plan that suggests the government should…lock up blacks before they commit criminal acts?

    Do you support imprisoning people as a deterrent to crime?

  • Hope and Change?

    Funny how some libs make up stories about lower crime rates….too bad it doesnt change the reality for the poor folks who live there…

    In 2007, among the nation’s 10 largest cities, Philadelphia had the highest murder rate with 406 victims. This year could easily top last year’s with 240 murders so far.

    Other cities such as Baltimore, Detroit and Washington, D.C., with large black populations, experience the nation’s highest rates of murder and violent crime. This high murder rate is, and has been, predominantly a black problem.

    According to Bureau of Justice statistics, between 1976 and 2005, blacks, while 13 percent of the population, committed over 52 percent of the nation’s homicides and were 46 percent of the homicide victims. Ninety-four percent of black homicide victims had a black person as their murderer.

    Blacks are not only the major victims of homicide; blacks suffer high rates of all categories of serious violent crime, and another black is most often the perpetrator.

    Hmmmm…another thing in common is that the aforementioned cities all have Black mayors…what a coincidence….or is there a pattern here!

    Hope and change…nah, nah, na, naaaH…good bye!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Miss Cindy, you’re not quite even making sense there. Now, we’d probably agree on some things like that people shouldn’t be in jail over marijuana, say.

    But I doubt there’s many people in prison who are there pre-emptively. It’s pretty much people who are judged to have already done something wrong what get locked up.

    As we’ve gotten more criminals locked up, the crime rate has gone down. And then as we’ve locked up yet some more of them, the crime rate goes down further. That makes perfectly good sense.

    Plus, your insistence on carrying on about the high rate of blacks among the incarcerated is really making a point that I have tried to delicately disregard. Black folk might perhaps some places get hassled by the fuzz largely just for being black- maybe, or maybe not. But there are likely not very many people actually convicted and sent to prison just because they are black, even though they’ve done nothing wrong.

    The indelicate fact that I have tried to politely disregard here but that you insist on underscoring is that black Americans have higher crime rates than the rest of the population. Maybe, just maybe, you ought to consider the possibility that there are a disproportionate amount of black guys in jail not just because The Man is out to get them, but because they have higher rates of criminal behavior.

  • Cindy

    Al,

    I realize that was unfair, to just give you a link to that thread with hundreds of posts in it.

    So, I have collected the links.

    Since 1994 violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest level ever in 2005. (U.S. Dept of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics)

    The following four, which are a pdf file, are found at the Senate site.

    The incarceration rate has continued to rise despite falling crime rates 1987-2005

    US incarceration rate largest in the world

    Incarceration rate of African Americans remains much higher than any other demographic groups 1990-2006

    NYC People arrested for marijuana possession broken down by race:

    1987- 1996:
    23,000 Blacks arrested
    9,000 Hispanics arrested
    5,000 Whites arrested

    1997-2006:
    196,000 Blacks arrested
    108,000 Hispanics arrested
    52,000 Whites arrested

  • Hope and Change?

    Crime rates are not because they are Black..its all about economics…Thats the irony of King Barrys goals…expanding entitlement programs actually perpetuates the root cause of their problems…poverty and not race!

  • Cindy

    So we lock up poor people more than rich? I think you have that right H&C.

    We also lock up black people more than white. Even where whites are committing more crimes.

    We just don’t criminalize “white” collar crimes like black people smoking pot.

  • Cindy

    RE# 152

    Al,

    The indelicate fact that I have tried to politely disregard here but that you insist on underscoring is that black Americans have higher crime rates than the rest of the population. Maybe, just maybe, you ought to consider the possibility that there are a disproportionate amount of black guys in jail not just because The Man is out to get them, but because they have higher rates of criminal behavior.

    So, what do you say when “The man” says that’s not true? The government says crime rates dropped yet more blacks are in jail.

    It’s not making sense to you because, I suspect, it goes against your preconceived beliefs. But, you can’t just discount it, as it is fact.

    So, how do you reconcile it?

  • Hope and Change?

    Cindy what the f..Ck are you rambling about…

    People who commit crimes should be locked up.

    If you were rational you would say lock up all the white trash in living in trailer parks (sorry Cindy) and all the inner city blacks and crime would dramatically drop!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Miss Cindy, you act like higher incarceration along with lower crime rates goes against what I’ve been saying, and I’m saying that this goes right along with my logic and that YOU need to recognize something that seems to be boggling your brain.

    Leaving race aside for a moment, the general principle is that the more criminals you lock up, the lower the crime rate goes. Then you lock up yet some more criminals and the crime rate goes down yet more.

    How is this a contradiction?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    She isn’t saying that lower crimes rates are the result of higher incarceration rates but that high incarceration rates continue despite lower crime rates.

  • Cindy

    H&C,
    How odd…you will say this:

    If you were rational you would say lock up all the white trash in living in trailer parks (sorry Cindy) and all the inner city blacks and crime would dramatically drop!

    But you can’t type the word “fuck”?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger writes:

    “But I have to take issue with you over your comments regarding Todd Yarling. “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?” Oh, come on now. Where in his comments did you even begin to get an idea that such an insulting and inherently derogatory question was appropriate?”

    Given the subject of your topic, it’s entirely appropriate. In fact, it’s THE question, in my opinion, which included the 2nd part:

    “Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    The context of the thread–Eric Holder in his speech:

    “As a nation we have done a pretty good job in melding the races in the workplace. We work with one another, lunch together and, when the event is at the workplace during work hours or shortly thereafter, we socialize with one another fairly well, irrespective of race. And yet even this interaction operates within certain limitations. We know, by “American instinct” and by learned behavior, that certain subjects are off limits and that to explore them risks, at best embarrassment, and, at worst, the questioning of one’s character. And outside the workplace the situation is even more bleak in that there is almost no significant interaction between us. On Saturdays and Sundays America in the year 2009 does not, in some ways, differ significantly from the country that existed some fifty years ago. This is truly sad. Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

    Voluntarily socially segregated.

    Read that again, Al. If somebody engages in “voluntary social segregation”, that person is by logic, a segregationist.

    You see, the hamster-wheel that is blogosphere discussions on race usually goes this way:

    Blogger #1: “X people are bad because they do so-and-so at a such-and-such percentage rate”

    Blogger #2: “That’s because bad Y people have done so-and-so at a such-and-such percentage rate”

    The internet exists, Al. There is an inexhaustable supply of statistics around to make any point you want to make about anybody. Ask Dave how notorious I am for that. I literally wear the type off of my keyboard over at Discriminations

    But the wheel will never stop turning on the RACE discussion because most people are COWARDS. They never get to the bottom line.

    That’s what I was asking Todd Yarling. It’s actually a very simple, honest and reasonable question. I’m asking you Al, as well.

    I’m calling you both out.

    Don’t be COWARDS. You have no problem bashing Eric Holder for his speech. Show some courage and give your stance on the main issue he raised.

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    Thanks Roger.

    Al won’t be convinced by that. But that’s okay.

    I will have to given you more info. Al. But, that will have to be tomorrow as I am too tired to dig through references tonight.

  • Cindy

    But I am dying to hear your answer to Cobra, in the meantime.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    @ cobra: I don’t know what you are on about, with segregation, etc, i said nothing about that issue, so, i am at a loss.

    I think what I have said is pretty clear. That blacks have higher rates of criminal activity.

    I don’t know how this Cindy is somehow turning this into some sort of conspiracy to persecute blacks.

    To hear her tell it, there is a conspiracy, on all levels of govt, state, local, county and federal, to falsely accuse and then unjustly convict innocent blacks.

    And since these are all jury trials, even the common citizens are in on the conspiracy, including the blacks who sit upon the juries!

    No, the correct answer is the simple, and obvious one: Blacks are incarcerated at higher rates because they are committing more crimes than white people.

    Seriously, this is beyond dispute, is the subject of about 10 Million raps songs, is supported by merely reading the newspaper and watching the news, and talking over the issues with blacks themselves.

    It is a dead horse and its conclusive.

    For the purposes of the statement I made, it doesn’t matter if blacks are committing crimes cause of systematic racism, or committing crimes cause they are just violent by nature, or because they have been influenced by aliens, the statement stands, supported by all the facts, blacks commit more crimes than white people, percentage wise.

    What is so hard to understand here?

  • Cindy

    Todd,(and Al)

    Tomorrow I’ll give you some info on the “school to prison pipeline” and on the difference in prosecution of crime between various offenses.

    No conspiracy at all. Perhaps you can explain why you think a conspiracy is necessary?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra- If I may ask without offense, what the hell is wrong with you to be going on like this, as if you somehow would get anywhere from anything that Yarling or I have said that we even might favor segregation of any kind? You act like you’ve caught us at something, and you’re putting us on the spot.

    But that’s just completely 100% made up nonsense on your part. There’s no basis in anything that we’ve said to ask such a stupid question.

    I could share about my positive experiences living in black neighborhoods versus negative experiences in white suburbs, but then I’d just be accused of self-justification or other such nonsense.

    But whatever else kind of nonsense you want to come up with, you certainly can’t accuse me of being a “coward” in discussing race relations. It was exactly in response to Holder’s BS that I wrote this article. Given past experience here, I knew what kind of dumbass personal attacks and insinuations like this I was walking into for daring to speak honestly – though thankfully this is considerably toned down from the old days.

  • Cindy

    Al,

    But, you didn’t answer again…

    So, forget about the coward stuff. What do you think about just that one question he asked?

    “Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    That is an interesting question.

  • Cindy

    I mean…I don’t mean forget about it (actually do whatever you want)…lol I just wanted to find out what you thought.

    I had best go to bed. Thinking has been difficult for the last hour.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Miss Cindy- I’m hearing a little bit different question from you than from Cobra ie living together vs interbreeding – but maybe that’s me.

    I would very much like to have Macy Gray make me little Barger babies. I would love nothing better in this world than to have a beautiful little brown daughter that looked like Macy and hopefully had some of her talent and soul. Does that give you sufficient answer as to my attitudes in that area?

  • Cameron G

    While it’s true that blacks are rising to much more prominent positions throughout society now, as you point out, that doesn’t mean racism doesn’t exist or has vanished. Yes, we have had 2 black secretaries of state. We have had 65 white ones. Yes, we now have a black president. We have had 43 white ones.

    Shouting at everyone that you won’t feel guilty really isn’t an intelligent point. In fact, I’m unsure what you’re point in this article is. You first say we don’t need anymore talk about race, and then go on to say that everyone is scared to talk about race. If we’re all scared to talk, then don’t we need to discuss it? Perhaps you could clear this up.

    Similarly, simply shouting that you’re not going to feel guilty isn’t a valid point. No one is asking you to feel guilty, we’re all just asking if you’ll stop shouting about how race isn’t an issue, or is too much of an issue, or whatever you’re shouting about.

    Also, for someone who professes to want mature rhetoric, you seem to call people a lot of names. Liberals aren’t all “self-righteous” and Barack Obama is the president of the United States (your president) and certainly deserves more respect than being called an “affirmative-action candidate” and “wicked” regardless of your personal views.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cameron- I recognize that President Obama is representing me, and I hope he is successful in foreign affairs and healing the domestic economy. Which is to say, I hope he’s not successful at implementing a bunch of bad Marxist college professor ideas that he favors.

    I’m not sure that I’ve called him “wicked” specifically, but he certainly and really undeniably IS an affirmative-action pick. No white man with his thin resume or far left views would have been elected. Hey, I’m just speaking truth to power.

    I’ll be inclined to close ranks with him against outsiders ie Iranian mullahs, and I have no desire to villainize and de-humanize him, as so many liberals did to BusHitler.

    Still though, he is now The Man, POTUS, the most powerful man in the world and thus the one most needing criticized and held to account. Plus, he’s now on MY payroll. So he can expect to be getting called everything but a white man. President Obama, welcome to George W Bush’s world.

    I do not intend on painting ALL liberals with any particular term such as “self-righteous.” That’s a certain subset, including some but not all of the commenters on this thread. That’s on an if-the-shoe-fits basis.

    But how come is it that the relatively mild term “self-righteous” is name-calling to be called out for, but all the schmucks calling or implying of me every kind of racism and bigotry – much more serious accusations – are ok?

    And where do you get that I’m shouting? I’m not, nor have I been at any point in writing the story or responding to the comments emotionally over wrought or figuratively shouting. Strongly expressing an opinion doesn’t necessarily imply anger or figurative “shouting.” Again, that kind of description would better describe some of my critics in this thread – Miss Cindy in particular especially and specifically excepted.

    Plus, I don’t think my intentions in the article are that hard to decipher if you actually want to understand. Maybe you just read too fast. Re-read the original story.

    Let me summarize briefly. I’m not necessarily saying that there’s too much talk about race (maybe, maybe not), but that most generally liberals like AG Holder don’t really truly mean what they say when they call for honest dialogue. They want a one-sided harangue, and I demonstrated that by taking up his challenge by writing this story. Try a little honest racial dialogue that does not involve being 100% in agreement with the liberal PC agenda and you get demonized and de-humanized as I have been here by Dawn Olsen among others. Thus, I offer this predictably abusive comment thread as evidence to prove the dishonesty behind AG Holder’s remarks.

    Does that clear up my intentions?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    For the record, Cindy kindly cut and pasted the 2nd part of the exact same question that I asked first to Todd Yarling, and then to Al Barger in Comment #161 and #165:

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    There has been no answer to those questions from Todd Yarling to this point.

    Al Barger writes:

    “I would very much like to have Macy Gray make me little Barger babies. I would love nothing better in this world than to have a beautiful little brown daughter that looked like Macy and hopefully had some of her talent and soul. Does that give you sufficient answer as to my attitudes in that area?”

    That does NOT answer the questions for me, and I’ll explain why.

    Strom Thurmond fathered a “little brown daughter” named Essie Mae Washington with the black teenaged housekeeper in his family home, and then ran for President in 1948 as the Segregationist Party Candidate, and literally tackled people trying to keep the Civil Rights Act of 1964 from passing. There are still questions as to whether the sex was “consentual.”

    Thomas Jefferson was a segregationist/slave owner, but that didn’t stop him from fathering multiple children with his teenaged slave girl Sally Hemmings. Slaves, by law, were not given the choice of consent. This was a common practice for slave owners (it was the “house flipping” of its day. They’d buy a black woman for $300, and then breed them for up to $500 a male child) so much so, that I can see the results in the mirror…

    “…African-Americans are, on average, about 17 percent white: they have mitochondria (maternally inherited) that are African, but they often have European Y chromosomes. In other words, white men raped or seduced their maternal ancestors.”

    The American Swirl

    In other words, Al Barger, your post about you wanting to knock-up Macy Gray doesn’t answer my questions.

    Al Barger & Todd Yarling,

    I’m calling you out again.

    There’s nothing “confusing” about these questions. If you were “confused” before, you cannot honestly say you are after this post.

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    –Cobra

  • Cannonshop

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    Definitely favour mixing-first because it would eliminate a lot of the baggage both legal and cultural stemming from guys like Rev. Wright and that asshat Butler, and second because generally, in any animal population (and the human body IS an animal) hybridization tends to be a stronger survival trait than pure-breeding. (Compare the survival rates of Wolves to Dogs, or Purebred dogs to mutts outside of human control-in both cases, the less external selection to breeding is applied, the better the resulting animal is as a survivor-more intelligent, tougher, more adaptable. Pure-breeding is a great way to create weakness. Weaknesses like that are BAD.)

    Eliminating the goofy and arbitrary labels associated with “Race” is only for the positive for maintaining or improving a Just society based on the principles embodied in the Bill of Rights to our Constitution, and the ideals that even our Founding Fathers failed to live up to (while espousing).

    Assimilation is better than segregation.

  • Cindy

    lol Cobra uses the descriptor “kind” instead of “daffy”. I was so tired, I couldn’t think straight.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    You all balk and complain about who gets what position. I have an example of what I care about, I have 50 grapes…how many of those are good ones?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    That’s right…all we need is a few GOOD men.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    When do boys become men? Maturity?
    But then when does the process finish?
    Because now you are scrapping with
    more than ideals about how life should go.
    When will this country find a stable
    means other than ushering in top dogs
    wearing coat tails? When people can
    be born without contemplating their ends?
    What promises make life long prisoners?
    Those who take short cuts and make out
    pretty well actually.
    Like a line in Perfect Storm,
    “Here’s to crime.”
    The crime of envying thy neighbor.
    The crime of wanting what you see.
    The crime of being someone other than yourself.

    Here’s to organized crime.

    That we all keep stirring the mud.
    Muddy water never clears.
    And the Drew Street Sign in Clearwater
    shows clearly that money does not always
    go to the direct account.

    Here’s to people who trick and daze and
    craze others to get ahead.
    Here’s to people who loved the Hitler
    antics of a superior race.
    Here’s to take arms and maintain fear.

    Here is to organized crime.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    What do you think is really here? Peace? No way.
    The world has not changed much. People are still stubborn, self-willed, trying to manipulate others and controlling. One thing about me is my blunt honesty. I am not a stalker folks. In your puny mundane sense of the word. I defend myself and quite well against a line of redundant illwilled juvenille complaints.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    In relation to the cartoon, let us maintain that God in his infinite wisdom, really is HOLY and GOOD and RIGHTEOUS. Let us maintain that God is able to do miracles. Let us maintain that God gets angry and beware of God’s wrath. Let us maintain our sanity here folks about a prophecy that was not mine but one that was a warning to all of mankind.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Actually Al Barger sent me the link to come read this thread or article. I invited him to my email address to talk personally with me about the situation at hand. No one is stalking anyone.
    So slandering is a sin and crime. Shame on you.

  • bliffle

    Al Bargers articles are unreadable, and thence follows a bunch of mutually abusive comments, and finally nonsensical chaos.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra- I will admit to feeling slightly foolish at this point for trying to answer you. Yarling certainly does not need to answer you, and I shouldn’t have. It should have been obvious that you are malicious and dishonest, and anything I could have said was going to be evidence that I’m leader of the Klan and support slavery. Yeah, me and Strom Thurmond- same thing.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    No Bliffle, my columns are perfectly well readable, and my points and reasoning are generally pretty clear. You just don’t like what I’ve got to say, and choose not to be able to understand. There might be some of the time legitimate objections or alternate viewpoints from mine, but you don’t have any. You see what I’m saying but have no substantive rational response, so instead you pretend that I’m talking gibberish.

    And the comments are not MUTUALLY abusive. The abuse is all coming one direction.

    But that’s ok. It’s the price I pay for answering the AG’s call for honest racial dialogue.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I’d like to refer some readers to an article on my own weblog, The Tale of Two Men, in which I’m extremely critical of Mr. Obama during his run for the Democratic Party nomination – in particular, to the conclusion in part VII. It concerns Ms Ferraro’s charge concerning what she perceived then as Mr. Obama’s “affirmative-action” candidacy.

    I believe the aforementioned article tends to support Mr. Eric Holder’s claim that as regards racial matters, speech and attitudes, we ARE a nation of cowards.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    But that’s just completely 100% made up nonsense on your part. There’s no basis in anything that we’ve said to ask such a stupid question.

    You’ve failed to observe that almost everything Cobra posts is pure nonsense. Strawmen and ad hominems are his stock and trade.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Wise’s essay is excellent, but it is unlikely to change any minds on the right: they will find it deliberately inflammatory. Which of course is part of the point.

    The reason it won’t change minds on the right is that they don’t consider themselves racists. That idea is a fabrication of the left. If you step back and look at actions objectively it’s clear that on a personal basis racism crosses political boundaries, while as institutional policy it is enshrined primarily on the left.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    The article I’m citing in #184 tends to argue for racism of the Left, by and large (I suppose some on the right are not immune to it either.) But it doesn’t invalidate, IMO, Eric Holder’s comments.

  • Cindy

    This entire conversation, for me, has deteriorated into, well, the same thing it always does.

    No progress in any direction that I can see. And even less hope of any at this point. So, I’m not going to waste my time providing the references or info I said I would, as only I would be interested in them anyway.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    David – “not considering yourself one” and “not being one” are not necessarily and always one and the same thing – you do know that, no?

  • Cindy

    I would like to thank you H&C, for writing this:

    If you were rational you would say lock up all the white trash in living in trailer parks…and all the inner city blacks and crime would dramatically drop!

    That’s honest. Too bad everyone won’t be that honest about what they really think.

  • Cindy

    And that racist attitude can be found on both the left and the right, I’m afraid.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    This entire conversation, for me, has deteriorated into, well, the same thing it always does.

    You’re almost correct. But actually it didn’t deteriorate — it started much the same as it is now.

    Each ‘side’ accuses the other of name-calling, then proceeds to name-call.

    We say this proves Holder’s point. The ‘rightists’ claim we are thus proving their point. Maybe we are both being a bit glib.

    Circular arguments, talking past each other instead of to each other.

    Only in the parts where we bring in outside links do we come close to accomplishing anything.

  • Cindy

    “WHITE-COLLAR crime rarely prompts the outrage or draws the lengthy prison sentences of street crimes.

    It leaves no violated or bleeding victim; its perpetrators are often church-going community leaders who stand before the judge wearing tailored suits and repentant expressions.

    Yet such financial crimes can devastate an entire community rather than robbing a lone victim. Their impact can last for years, stealing crucial services or a lifetime’s savings through crimes invisible to their victims.”

    But, of course the perpetrators of white collar crimes are not pot smokers…and they dress “appropriately”.

    NYT: Racial Gap in Drug Arrests

    …large disparities persist in the rate at which blacks and whites are arrested and imprisoned for drug offenses, even though the two races use illegal drugs at roughly equal rates.

    I guess I lied when I said I wouldn’t post any references.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The reason it won’t change minds on the right is that they don’t consider themselves racists. That idea is a fabrication of the left. If you step back and look at actions objectively it’s clear that on a personal basis racism crosses political boundaries, while as institutional policy it is enshrined primarily on the left.

    First of all, neither myself nor Wise accuses ‘the right’ in general of being racist. Some very loud, strident voices, including talk-radio know-nothings and several writers and commenters on this thread, do deliberately push the envelope with regard to their rhetoric. And a few deliberately step over the line.

    Their indifference to whether their rough rhetoric causes pain may not literally be racism, but it certainly is not admirable.

    [Just to be clear, you are not one of the people I’m referring to.]

    And this ludicrous line that you repeat over and over about the left’s ‘institutional’ racism serve no purpose except to inflame. I am not a racist. Cindy is not a racist. Barney Frank is not a racist. Barack Obama is certainly not a racist. The historic Dixiecrats are long out of the picture – and were never ‘leftists’ anyway, whatever their party affiliation. So your repetitious line is just a load of useless rhetoric.

    But when Cindy and I took the Harvard/UVA test, we found that according to at least that measure, we are racially biased. I feel reasonably certain that you and several others on here would get the same result. Nearly all whites harbor this bias.

    And it is worth talking about without slipping on the protective armor of our customary red state/blue state rhetoric.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    It serves as a smokescreen, Handy.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    And for the record, Dave’s characterization of Cobra is dead wrong. As the politics editor, he has surely seen more than his share of meaningless, badly written, unnecessary bilge in the comments sections here.

    So when someone as manifestly smart and quick-witted as Cobra posts on here, even if you strongly disagree with his viewpoint, you should be able to recognize the difference in quality.

    He’s harsh, but he’s a hell of a writer and he easily defeats the nastier right-wingers on here at their own unpleasant game.

  • Cindy

    Do you know why there needs to be no conspiracy? It’s because the way it works is based on what H&C said. A preconceived stereotype.

    And the reason why punishment is meted out inappropriately is because of the belief by those in power that people should look and act and behave and think a certain way.

    And if you are different, you’d better watch your step. And being different might have to do with your actions, but apparently it may have even more to do with your color, or your hairstyle or your political beliefs or where you live.

    No conspiracy. Just a bunch of H&Cs all acting on the same beliefs.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    My objection is only to a summary dismissal: “You’ve failed to observe that almost everything Cobra posts is pure nonsense. Strawmen and ad hominems are his stock and trade.” It’s like a pot calling the kettle black.

    Besides, there was no ad hominem attacks in the referenced remarks by Cobra.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger writes:

    “Cobra- I will admit to feeling slightly foolish at this point for trying to answer you. Yarling certainly does not need to answer you, and I shouldn’t have. It should have been obvious that you are malicious and dishonest, and anything I could have said was going to be evidence that I’m leader of the Klan and support slavery. Yeah, me and Strom Thurmond- same thing.”

    You still didn’t answer either of my questions.

    You called me “malicious” and “dishonest” for ACCURATELY recounting history and basic genetics. I sir, am neither. If you or Todd Yarling needs an example of how one can answer these simple questions, look to Cannonshop’s comment #173.

    For the record, I am an INTEGRATIONIST. “Race” is a political construct. Science supports my viewpoint.

    “”There’s no genetic basis for any kind of rigid ethnic or racial classification at all,” said Bryan Sykes, the Oxford geneticist and author of “The Seven Daughters of Eve.” “I’m always asked is there Greek DNA or an Italian gene, but, of course, there isn’t. . . . We’re very closely related.”

    Likewise, The New England Journal of Medicine once editorialized bluntly that “race is biologically meaningless.”

    …and American History tells me that the concept of race is political. Think about all the posts on this thread listing African-American pathologies–that we’re “poor, uneducated and criminal”….and then read this:

    “Once upon a time in America, Irish immigrants were considered a separate, non-white “race.” Most Americans believed the Irish could never be assimilated, would forever remain alien, poor, uneducated and criminal. Signs saying, “No Irish Need Apply” were common. Few Americans regarded marriage to an Irish immigrant with anything but horror.

    Today, the Irish are considered indisputably white, solidly middle-class, educated and upstanding, and so assimilated that no one thinks twice about it.

    In fact, so many people claimed to be Irish in the 1980 census that demographers concluded the number could not be accounted for by immigration and fertility. “Most of the growth of the Irish Americans must have resulted from intermarriage and the children of intermarriage choosing to claim Irish ancestry,” says the Urban Institute’s Passel.

    In other words, now everybody’s Irish because it doesn’t matter anymore.”

    That relates to the SECOND part of the question:

    “Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    My answer is YES they should MIX. As the scientists I quoted stated in my previous post, the vast majority of us are genetically mixed ALREADY. In the year 2050, America will be majority-non-white ANYWAY, folks. Get with the program. Why on EARTH should 2009 America subscribe to some anti-miscegenation creeds written by long-dead race supremacists? A political strategy? To gain business advantages and leverage? WHY?

    Now, you don’t have to agree with Cannonshop.

    You don’t have to agree with me.

    Just tell me where you REALLY stand on the issues.

    That’s what dialogue, discussion and debate is all about.
    What you ARE doing however, is DODGING the question, and the more you avoid answering it, the more you prove Eric Holder RIGHT.

    That being said…

    I’m calling you out yetagain.

    Al Barger, Todd Yarling & Dave Nalle who thinks that my posts, which contain indisputable American Historical facts and quotes from renown genetic scientists are “nonsense”.

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    Stop being COWARDS.
    Grow a pair.
    Answer the questions.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Yeah Roger, I’ma call bullshit on you here: there was no ad hominem attacks in the referenced remarks by Cobra There’s little but ad hominem to his comments, calling me out as a supposed segregationist for absolutely no legitimate reason, and likening me to Strom Thurmond.

    I haven’t followed the Cobra to make a general statement, but if his comments here are indicative of his general style, then Nalle is more than justified in that generalization.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    This was addressed to David Nally – not you, Mr. Barger.

  • Cindy

    Tim Wise On The Invention Of The White Race

    In this nine and a half minute clip, Tim Wise describes the way in which race was invented by elites in early America in order to divide and conquer the working class… and is still used to do so.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger,

    I’m calling you out as the author of a blog piece entitled…

    “Eric Holder’s Demagoguery, Legislation Writing Chimps, the Not-So-Magic Negro and the Monkey That Became President”

    ….and I’m also calling out the people who support the author to answer two questions:

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    Al Barger, neither you or Todd Yarling & Dave Nalle have answered those questions. Your answer to Cindy doesn’t sufficiently address the question. Again, here’s why.

    Remember, It was YOU, AL BARGER and not ME who offered the “Macy Gray interracial daughter fantasy” in Comment #169.

    Your fantasy doesn’t answer the question I posed since both White segregationists and integrationists have fathered children with Black women.

    I cited two historical examples in Strom Thurmond and Thomas Jefferson substantiating my claim. I did not CALL you a “segregationist”. Check the text record. However, AL BARGER, you REFUSE TO ANSWER a direct question about whether you’re a segregationist or an integrationist, leaving the readers of the blog thread YOU started left to draw their OWN conclusions about what you believe in.

    You, and your supporters are being COWARDLY.

    My conclusion?

    ERIC HOLDER IS RIGHT.

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Kind of late to the party, as usual…. A storm on Sabbath morning killed my internet connection (and my phone line) and only recently did I get home to find, lo and behold, that the line and the internet had been re-connected.

    Anyway, I have to disagree with Brother Barger here. Americans have not talked sufficiently about race or race relations, whites to blacks or blacks to whites. They have screamed epithets at each other or pretended to play nice-nice. They have shot at each other or showered each other with false praise. They have heaped guilt and blame on each other, or they have denied guilt and blame. But they have not honestly talked anywhere near enough. And they have not honestly listened to each other with an open heart.

    This lack of real open and honest communication is not related to the individual blacks who have acceded to power in the United States. This lack of honest and open communication is the result of fear. The blacks in power in the States – men whom I would not want to see anywhere near the halls of power if I were still living in the United States, merely take advantage of this fear and of this lack of communication to push their own agenda.

    Honest and open communication between blacks and whites (which would probably scare the living shit out of people like Obama and Holder) is very necessary to preserve the one real victory the American people gained through the election of Barack Obama – the willingness to elect a black man to power.

    Obama’s administration is likely to be one huge disaster. While Obama might not be re-elected, which would be fine, Americans might feel that no other black person deserves to be president ever in the future. This would be a real loss to Americans.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Re: Cobra’s #203

    I am reconsidering my defense of you.

    Switch to decaf or something, bud.

  • Hope and Change?

    Um…. er….. handdguy…have you seen the latest news? Maybe someone should draw a…tyou know…. cartoon… LOL

    George Mason picks drag queen as homecoming queen

    FAIRFAX, Va. (AP) — George Mason University senior Ryan Allen dresses in drag and doesn’t mind being called a queen — homecoming queen, to be exact. Allen, who is gay and performs in drag at nightclubs in the region, said he entered the homecoming contest as a joke, competing as Reann Ballslee, his drag queen persona.

    But he considers the victory one of his happiest moments and proof that the suburban Washington, D.C., school famous for its run to the Final Four a few years back celebrates its diverse student body.

  • Hope and Change?

    orrection…

    Um…. er….. handyguy…have you seen the latest news? Maybe someone should draw a…you know…. cartoon… LOL

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Howdy Brother Ruvy- Always glad to see you come around. Again, I’m not saying that there’s necessarily too much talk about race – but as you said that it’s not open and honest. You can see what I get for those efforts. And at that, it seems to be mostly pretty much white folk going off on me. Heaven knows what kind of hell I’d catch if some authentic angry black folk showed up.

    Of course, my objection to Obama isn’t that he’s black, but that he’s basically Jimmy Carter redux – at least so far. Then again, perhaps after he gets his head knocked in a couple of times he’ll get a little more sense. But that he’s talking about raising taxes even now doesn’t bode well.

    There are a number of people who would make good presidents. Actually, the first couple of names that come to mind are, largely co-incidentally, black. If I got to be Kevin Costner and pick the president, we’d have President Clarence Thomas. The other top name that comes to mind would be Thomas Sowell. That they both came up through Jim Crow and real racism (unlike Obama) would maybe be just a little bonus point.

    In the range of folks interested in the job who might actually be elected though, President Jindal is sounding better to me by the day. This would of course be throwing a whole different spin on race in America – but that would again be just gravy on top of the basic point of having someone who would be likely to do a good job.

    In any case, I don’t think that anything Obama does would likely majorly detract from electing another black president at some point. If he screws up, it’ll likely be properly held against his co-conspirator Democrats rather than against the black race. Hopefully.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Re #207:

    If you have an orrection lasting more than 4 hours, call your doctor.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    If I got to be Kevin Costner and pick the president, we’d have President Clarence Thomas.

    This tidbit actually may tell us all we need to know about its author.

    An early nominee for 2009’s Say What?! Award, and still likely to be in the running by December.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Alright Handyguy, against my better judgment, I’ll bite: What does my tidbit of liking the idea of President Clarence Thomas tell us about me that is all that we need to know?

  • Irene Wagner

    A “^5″ to anyone who remembers who said this: I object to your rhetoric, and particularly to your characterization of individuals, because it is so simplistic, so ad hominem.

  • Cindy

    Can we cheat Irene?

  • Irene Wagner

    ^5 Cindy.

  • Cindy

    ^5 Irene :-)

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Handyguy,

    Hey, sorry you feel that way. I’m just not playing the usual games on this blog thread.

    If we’re going to spend 200 or so posts running down Black people, this “authentic” African-American is going to ask some real, pointed questions of those who sit in judgement of me.

    I’m not angry. I’m just meticulous in my presentation and indefatigable in my beliefs. If that’s too much for some who expect the blogosphere to be an ethnocentric echo-chamber for their own personal ideology, that’s just sad on them.

    Is that harsh? Yup. Do I use bold face type and CAPS for emphasis? You betcha. Whatever gets the job done.

    But I will say this…the longer it takes for those I’ve singled out to answer basic, simple questions, the more the undecided readers of this blogthread will come to agree with at least some of the points I’m trying to make.

    –Cobra

  • Irene Wagner

    Oh dear. I’m not sure this is at all what Eric Holden had in mind.

    Oh (sock it to me, sock it to me,
    sock it to me, sock it to me)
    A little respect (sock it to me, sock it to me,
    sock it to me, sock it to me)
    Whoa, babe (just a little bit)
    A little respect (just a little bit)
    I get tired (just a little bit)
    Keep on tryin’ (just a little bit)…

  • Irene Wagner

    Ask me anything Cobra. I have about 15 more minutes to make a nuisance of myself, and then I have to go.

  • Cindy

    LOL Irene!
    that was great :-)

  • Irene Wagner

    I’m remembering an article recently about men forcing their female slaves to bear them children. I can’t find it now so I can’t be sure you wrote it, but understanding that you might have written it or read it, or had that sort of thing in your family history, puts some of your reactions to this thread in context now. White Men who find Black Women attractive aren’t all in that category though.

    Coincidences are such peculiar things.

  • Irene Wagner

    :) Cindy. Sometimes I feel like life is too short to listen to music made by anyone who isn’t black…Marion Anderson, the Blind Boys of Alabama, Jimi Hendrix, Scott Joplin, almost anything, I don’t know, it just makes me feel happy. You might be surprised to learn that Al Barger feels the same way. Ask him about the music he likes—a lot of black gospel in there among his favorites, as I recall.

  • Irene Wagner

    …AND my fifteen minutes is long since expired. Have a good week.

  • Irene Wagner

    LOL Cindy, not that you WOULDN’T have written such an article, but the juxtaposition of comments made it sound like I was writing #221 to you instead of Cobra. #222 was for you though.

    …find out what it means to me…just a little bit…just a little bit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    #217, Cobra,

    It is odd, though, Cobra, that you cannot seem to get an answer to two such simple questions. And that’s from the most adamant exponents attesting to the courage of their own convictions.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    How was Handy slowing you down, BTW? Did I miss something?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Well Miss Irene, I’m sure that there are several people here who will insist that I’m Grand Poobah of the Klan anyway, but since you kinda asked I’m currently obsessing on Thelonious Monk. Plus, I’ve just recently figured out that “In Walked Bud” was specifically about Bud Powell, and the story about the police beating he basically took in Monk’s place. That Bud was a badass, “finding that note nobody wrote, putting it down.”

  • Irene Wagner

    [edited]

    Less said, sooner healed, Al. It wasn’t you I was quoting.

    And now that you’ve gotten me to back up on my promise not to make a nuisance of myself for the rest of the night…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m sure that there are several people here who will insist that I’m Grand Poobah of the Klan anyway

    You mean you’re not??!!?

    Damn, Al, and a group of Coneheads just crash-landed in my backyard and sued for asylum. Those fetching pointy hats would have been a perfect disguise and I was sure I’d be able to hit you up for some. Now I have to make a two-hour drive down to Oildale in the dark.

  • Irene Wagner

    …I’ve been thinking about the fact that in the (admittedly unfunny) cartoons that Roger N. posted from the oeuvre of the cartoonist under discussion, I didn’t see much (or anything?) that would have him tagged as a “racist,” a lot that would have him tagged as a “homophobe.” Think: apples and oranges, or maybe applish-oranges, like the segment of California’s population that had a lot to do with Obama’s success AND with what happened with Prop 8.

    As for not answering questions, try asking someone “Have you stopped beating your wife or are you spraying her with Raid now?” and see how long you wait before you get a response.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    OK, so I’m seeing that Miss Irene was [edited] and went to my email looking for what kind of horrible personal attack she made that so much worse than the stuff left here that the editor chimps had to cut it. Which turns out to be:

    “Well dang, Al Barger, if you’d cut and pasted the quote like I did, you wouldn’t have messed it up!”

    Dang woman, that was HARSH!

    Uh, for those confused, I left the “it” out of the Monk quote, which was corrected and extra comment correction deleted by some friendly editor. Thank you. Hard to believe, but I made a mistake. Just a note for continuity sake.

    While I’m at it though, I’ll note that I’m have some fresh buttons at Barger’s Boutique tonight for Bud, the recently deceased Louie Bellson, and his missus Pearl Bailey.

  • Irene Wagner

    Thankyou Dr. D. but you put an “it” where it belonged in Al’s comment, too.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Al, Al, Al…

    ‘[edited]’ doesn’t mean she made a personal attack on anyone. It marks the place where she responded to your self-correction. I have since corrected your original balls-up and deleted your comment correcting it, therefore Irene’s subsequent statement was now a non sequitur.

    When I edit a comment for objectionable behavior I indicate it as such. This one was for continuity only.

    You’re welcome…

  • Irene Wagner

    Well it’s not a non sequitur NOW Dr. Dreadful, and I thank you for amending that situation, too. :)

  • Cindy

    The Post has a history of using such “inciteful” (ha, I like that) contents. They regularly push the envelope of meaning intentionally. It would be difficult to fathom that this was accidental.

    The cartoonist’s work, is clearly designed to push buttons as well. I think he just likes fruit in general–apples, oranges, bananas, whatever…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    That was posted only for the audience’s sake – to enlarge on the topic. I offered no opinion on those cartoons whatever. So I really have no idea on what basis you’re are arriving at your rather half-baked conclusion, Ms Wagner (in #229). It’s uncharacteristic of you.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    [perfectly innocuous comment deleted by overwrought chimpanzee]

  • Irene Wagner

    LOL Dr. D.

    I always love it when overwrought convos in BC finish with spats over grammar. You needn’t have italicized non sequitur, I think.

  • Cindy

    Well, at least I know I am not alone, Roger.

  • Irene Wagner

    It’s true you didn’t Roger. You just posted the link. I didn’t say anything raw, half baked or burnt about you, just made an observation about the post, n’est ce pas? And thank you for saying that half-baked conclusions are uncharacteristic of me.

    I shall repeat that affirmation to myself each morning when I greet myself in the mirror.

  • Irene Wagner

    Not the Post Cindy was making an observation about, mind you, Roger, YOUR post.

  • Irene Wagner

    But the fact of the matter was…yes it was a little on the underdone side. I shall elaborate, because what the hay, in for a penny, in for a pound.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Cobra, if races are biologically indistinguishable, then being an integrationist is tantamount to being a racist. Think about it.

    And your locigal fallacies really point up the weakness of your arguments. The fact that Jefferson and Thurmond were a slave owner and a segregationist yet fathered black children, is interesting, but your attempt to relate it in some way to Barger’s desire for Macy Gray, doesn’t actually work on a logical basis.

    The fact that some people who are attracted to other races are also racists does not mean that ALL people or any other specific person attracted to a person of a different race is a racist.

    In fact, I’m not sure you can even prove that Jefferson and Thurmond are racists in a contemporary since, since both of them would have argued that they thought slavery/segregation were acceptable because they were ways of protecting blacks from a hostile society, rather like the Democratic party seeks to protect their favored minorities whether it’s actually good for them or not.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I really have no idea what’s on her mind since she speaks in riddles. Does have a point, however, about Cobra’s direct & confronting questions. They ought to have been phrased better.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I’m still at a loss. You’re not referring now to my own piece, “The Tale of Two Men,” are you now?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave,

    You’re correct insofar that, as you say.

    “The fact that some people who are attracted to other races are also racists does not mean that ALL people or any other specific person attracted to a person of a different race is a racist.”

    However, you do slight injustice to Cobra’s argument insofar that Mr. Barger had used that as though it constituted some kind of proof. And as that stands – knowing nothing about the facts of the case – one can go either way here. So your reading of Cobra is not a sympathetic one.

    Roger

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Dave Nalle sez “both of them would have argued that they thought slavery/segregation were acceptable because they were ways of protecting blacks from a hostile society, rather like the Democratic party seeks to protect their favored minorities”

    And Dave, that’s why everybody hates you. You shouldn’t be making inappropriate but logical connections like that. Bad doggie. No treat.

    Also, if I were looking for some submissive slave girl deal, my object of desire would not be the author of “Give Me All Your Lovin’ Or I Will Kill You.”

  • Irene Wagner

    I’m thinking about all the black people who would be given the ol’ internet back of the hand if they were to show up here and post, just sentences after the denigrators [sic] had accused someone else of being a racist.

    George Washington Carver on evolution. Clarence Thomas on just about anything. A randomly sampling of black Californian voters discussing prop 8. Paul Shepherd on how to REALLY get people to open up about race in a productive way. Alan Keyes who? Condi Rice, where’s HER fan club? (Not that I’m about to start one for her OR Hillary.)

    Tyler Perry would likely get a mixed reaction.

    Nothing personal against you Roger–I shouldn’t have called you out without making that clear. My “accused of being a racist by association” day-in-the-sun happened before you started posting on BC. (And I’m not talking about you Cindy with whom I can disagree with mutual lack of rancor.)

  • Cindy

    Roger,

    I didn’t think Irene’s post about your post said anything about you. (just a reference to the cartoons) I was going to suggest you reread it.

  • Cindy

    Condi doesn’t deserve a fan club. Just a club.

    (oh yikes…gotta forgive me, she practically said “yahoo” when the head of the CIA came to get approval to torture people)

  • Irene Wagner

    OK Roger, so there are my thoughts in all their cindered glory!

  • Irene Wagner

    Club maybe, Cindy
    Anything but a Spade.
    DOH…
    Listen I’d better get outer here…
    Have a good week, all, I mean it this time.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Irene.

    “I didn’t see much (or anything?) that would have him tagged as a ‘racist,’ a lot that would have him tagged as a ‘homophobe.’ ”

    This is what I’m referring to in the subject remark.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The fact that Jefferson and Thurmond were a slave owner and a segregationist yet fathered black children, is interesting, but your attempt to relate it in some way to Barger’s desire for Macy Gray, doesn’t actually work on a logical basis.

    “I’m not a racist. Some of my best friends the people who give me a stiffy are black.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Werll, I see that now and I apologize: but you do have two referents in that rather unhappy sentence 1)Roger N and 2) the cartoonist. Sorry for jumping the gun!

  • Cindy

    All Cobra said was: The answer given did not answer the question.

    He did not say it constituted racism.

    Also, the two questions he asked, I think are pretty straight forward as questions go.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    It’s a losing battle. But then again, Doc, remember George Herbert Bush – so very proud of having “the brown ones.” A term of endearment, I’d say.

  • Cindy

    lol @ Dr.D

  • Cindy

    The point is Al, that one would consider sleeping with someone and having a child could be nothing beyond an ownership racket.

    So, it doesn’t answer the question capiche?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Or just whoring around!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Shoot, some people engage in bestiality – which says nothing about the equality status.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Cobra, dude, do you really think that this thread is running down black people?

    Or is this just a case of the best defense being a good offense?

    I mentioned high black crime rates, and now you are accusing me, or demanding I disavow, Jim Crow?

    I see this, perhaps unjustly, as just another attempt to silence any real discussion about race relations that doesn’t come from a leftist perspective that blames everything on evil white people.

  • Cindy

    Todd,

    You aren’t even aware of your glaring bias. You don’t see what you’re missing you are so completely indoctrinated, you may as well be running on a program.

    And you are determined not to add any outside information, which has been offered to you. You are like talking to a wall.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    RE: comment 258 Aw c’mon now Cindy. It was a stupid question in the first place. Are you an integrationist? Like there’s any reason on Earth to think that I would believe in separating people by race. So Cindy, do you like molesting children? I’m calling you out.

    Again, if I was looking for an ownership thing, Macy Gray would be about the LAST black woman I’d be looking for. The author of “Ghetto Love” knows how to keep her finger on the trigger. I would SO not dare get stupid with her.

    OK then, since you ain’t satisfied. What if I absolutely MARRIED Macy Gray and stayed home to take care of our children while she’s on tour? Would THAT be considered enough proof that I’m not a segregationist?

  • Cindy

    You wouldn’t recognize real discussion about race if someone pulled your pointy hat up from over your eyes.

  • Cindy

    #264 @ Todd

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Yarling- Cobra is angry and black. You have to understand that he’s had 400 years of oppression. Well, maybe he’s had, guessing, 30 years of being a rich American, but it’s kinda the same thing.

    Anyway, you can’t expect a righteous angry black man like Cobra to be rational or civil, can you? Quit imposing your ethnocentric biases on him, and answer the question.

  • Cindy

    evil white people

    Some are evil. Most are just the product of indoctrination.

    My constant impression is like having conversations with a Scientologist or a Jehovah Witness.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cindy, you’re way out of line talking trash about Brother Yarling being Klan, and you owe him an apology. He’s not said the least little thing to begin to deserve even vague suspicion of bigotry, much less being called a Klansman. SHAME on you. You know better.

  • Cindy

    Todd,

    Jehovah witnesses came to my door. The one woman asked if I believed in god. I said, “I’m an atheist.” At which she smiled and nodded. She continued, “Well, do you believe in justice?” I said, “Yes, that’s why I’m an Anarchist.” The daffy woman just kept smiling and nodding, like she either heard this all the time…or like she didn’t really have the capacity to take any information in from the outside of her head.

    You don’t smile and nod Todd. But, it’s the same exact attitude, in that you already know everything that needs to be known, and it’s the same inability to consider anything you don’t already believe.

  • Cindy

    I apologize for the pointy hat remark.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Cindy, I think you are proving my point.

    I don’t doubt that it might be provable that blacks are treated more harshly by the justice system than white people.

    That might in fact be a good thing, as its written, ‘Rescue a violent man once, and you will have to do it again’, and ‘God disciplines those He loves’.

    After all, I thot the Jena 6 should have been incarcerated for jumping that white kid, 6 on 1, and putting him in the hospital, not given an award on BET in front of millions of people.

    As an aside, how, exactly is that supposed to make me feel as a white guy? 6 blacks commit a violent crime, and the black establishment doesn’t call for their punishment, but instead honor those thugs? Shades of 1950’s South?

    But I digress. You are mad, calling me ignorant, indoctrinated, brainwashed, because I state facts, provable statistics.

    Do a few cases where blacks are getting a rawer deal from the criminal justice system somehow negate the fact that blacks kill and are killed, by other blacks, at a rate 8 to 10 times white people kill each other?

    No, Cindy, you just don’t like it cause a) I refuse to blame white people and systematic racism, and b) saying it in the first place.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    @ Cindy You are condemning that Jehovah Witness cause she didn’t agree with you, did it ever occur to you that you are doing the exact same thing to her?

    She felt enough love for you to knock on your door to warn you of eternal peril, which is real, but you are smugly writing her off cause she didn’t immediately drop all of her ideas and beliefs and embrace yours.

    On the one hand, you condemn absolutes, but judge others for not embracing your own!

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Al, I think Cobra is giving a good example of why whites and blacks don’t mix or talk about these things. He heard something he didn’t like, and is reverting to Angry Black Guy Intimidation mode.

    You know why they do it? Cause it works!

    Most people will immediately back down if they feel they have offended someone.

    Maybe Holder is right, and we have been cowards :P

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Is this a retraction, then?

  • Cindy

    Todd,

    I don’t doubt that it might be provable that blacks are treated more harshly by the justice system than white people.

    That might in fact be a good thing, as its written, ‘Rescue a violent man once, and you will have to do it again’, and ‘God disciplines those He loves’.

    What the fuck is that supposed to mean? You are saying blacks are violent? Blacks are more violent than whites? Blacks are naturally violent? What exactly are you saying. Why not put it into plain words.

    And what does any specific attack have to do with anything? People both white and black attack each other. What does that say about the larger population?

    Or should I judge you based on what the Klan, or Nazi skin heads do?

    No, Cindy, you just don’t like it cause a) I refuse to blame white people and systematic racism, and b) saying it in the first place.

    I say it because you don’t understand what is in Tim Wise’s article and you have no interest in even looking at it. It strikes me as odd that a self-proclaimed “expert”–who knows so much he can and should teach everyone else how things are–wouldn’t want to have all the information available on a subject and study it from all sides.

  • Cindy

    I don’t condemn Jehovah Witnesses. I feel sorry for cult members.

  • Cindy

    Roger,

    No, he’s not making a retraction.

  • Cindy

    He’s saying Cobra is trying to dominate him and get him to roll over. He’s saying that maybe that is what white people should do–not back down.

  • Cindy

    He’s saying black people become angry and dominating in order to try to make white people feel bad an submit.

    In other words he is showing his true colors. He’s taking what he believes Cobra is doing (he’s wrong about that too), and he’s trying to apply it to the entire black race.

    He’s demonstrating very clearly that he is a racist and so I’ll hand him back his pointy hat. And I’ll take back my apology.

  • Cindy

    By the way Todd,

    I didn’t expect the Jehovah Witness to embrace my ideas. I merely pointed out that she acted like an automaton.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    ‘You are saying blacks are violent? Blacks are more violent than whites?”

    Um, that’s exactly what the statistics say and what I have been saying all along.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Irene, to catch you up:

    I asked two simple questions to Al Barger, Todd Yarling, and Dave Nalle..

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    I asked the question originally because it represented the heart of Eric Holder’s speech, which I offered a pull quote and relevance way back in Comment #161.

    As Roger correctly notes, none of them have answered the questions. If you Irene, would like to take a crack at the questions, feel free to break the trend.

    Dave Nalle writes:

    “Cobra, if races are biologically indistinguishable, then being an integrationist is tantamount to being a racist. Think about it.”

    First, thank you for at least “addressing” part of the question. You still didn’t answer it, but at least you’re in the neighborhood.

    Race, according to the genetic scientists I quoted, is indeed biologically indistinguishable..based on complex DNA genome testing. There’s more genetic variations intraracially than there are interracially.

    But like with most things human, the “social construct of race is mostly about looks.

    “Furthermore scientists within other disciplines, such as biology and anthropology, have discarded such definitions of race based upon notions of biologic or genetic homogeneity. Rather, scientists recognize that the concept of race has been socially constructed–initially in the sixteenth century to justify economic exploitation and political domination of certain populations distinguishable by physical features such as skin color–and that race is a set of economic, political, and cultural relations that result in health and social inequalities.”

    Take Homer Plessy, from the landmark case, Plessy v. Fergusson.

    Look at the picture in the link. He was an “octamaroon”, meaning he was 1/8ths Black. You wouldn’t know that from the picture. Neither did the people on the train he boarded in 1892…until he told them. He was promptly arrested for violating the Louisiana Separate Car Act of 1890, and his case went all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court declared that separate but equal accommodations were constitutional. This kind of thing stood until Jim Crow laws were finally ruled unconstitutional decades later.

    By your framing, Homer Plessy was the “racist” in this account because he wanted to ride in a rail car with what appeared to be “White people”, and not the Louisiana State Legislature or the Supreme Court Justices that said he could not.

    The truth about America in regards to the social construct of race is that Homer Plessy was considered “black”, even though he physically passed for “white”, because of hypodescent–one drop of black blood. Modern DNA testing would have made Jim Crow legislation seem even more ridiculous, and make the integration vs. segregation question I posted that much more clear.

    Dave Nalle writes:

    “The fact that Jefferson and Thurmond were a slave owner and a segregationist yet fathered black children, is interesting, but your attempt to relate it in some way to Barger’s desire for Macy Gray, doesn’t actually work on a logical basis.

    It certainly does. The question was:
    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?”,

    Al Barger’s answer (not mine) was:
    “I would very much like to have Macy Gray make me little Barger babies.”

    That statement doesn’t answer the question posed. Jefferson/Thurmond prove you can make babies with black women, and still be segregationists and/or slave-owners.

    From the Answers article I posted:

    “justify economic exploitation and political domination of certain populations distinguishable by physical features such as skin color”

    I can’t make up a better description of what Thomas Jefferson (slave owner) and Strom Thurmond (segregationist party/Dixiecrat) were. The fact that there were indeed abolitionists during Jefferson’s time, and integrationists/civil rights movement during Thurmond’s time indicates that they both had opportunities to act differently. They both believed that one race was superior/inferior to another, which is the definition of racism no matter what time period you want to discuss.

    Roger,

    Handyguy, and you allude both allude to the fact that my questions are direct and confrontational. And they are. I use bold type and CAPS for emphasis. And yes…

    I call people out by name, because they signed their names to these statements. The funny thing is that the author of this blog thread has exhibited shock at being asked direct questions given its title. The fact that none of them have directly answered these simple questions is quite fascinating indeed.

    We don’t have freedom of unchallenged speech in America.

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    And you believe in god too..how fucking charming some of you believers are…

    I’m done with this conversation. My mom told me never talk to racists. [personal attack deleted]

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    But Cindy, Cobra does clearly intend to be intimidating us with his cheesy angry-black-man schtick.

    However, it’s a good sign of how easy you’ve had it in the world and how thoroughly dead Jim Crow and the Klan are that you think that calling a spade a spade vis a vis black intimidation tactics is enough to qualify as a Klansman.

    Kinda shows a lack of a clue what the Klan really was. It’s good that you’ve grown up so innocent and blissfully unaware of the ugly past.

    Like Randy Newman said in “Sail Away,” “It’s great to be an American.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Odd, I didn’t feel intimidated at all by his anger. Good night!

  • Irene Wagner

    Cindy, I’m not sure what Cobra was trying to do, but maybe he’d get somewhere if he and Todd found a spot in Rumi’s field where they could talk about the generational impact of 1) mixing Massah’s “mean genes” with those of his African slaves 2) ripping black families apart, the babies raised like cattle, not reared like humans, with no consideration for anything but their ability to work in the fields. It’s an old fashioned idea, one that I’m suspecting Todd espouses: families and upbringing matter, and can change the course of history.

    The wonder, really, is that the black-on-black crime rate isn’t higher than the statistics Todd quotes. A link to those statistics would be helpful, Todd, and Cindy, so would another link to the Tim Wise article you’re so cross at us for not reading!

  • Cindy

    So, what is my anger Al? Cheesy white woman domination?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Like Randy Newman said in “Sail Away,” “It’s great to be an American.”

    Incredibly ironic you mention this, considering what the song is actually about…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Speaking of shtick, nothing quite beats Al’s Foghorn Leghorn act. I say, I say…

  • Cindy

    lol Jordan.

    Thanks for that relink Irene.

  • Cindy

    (factors all the “legitimate” violence caused predominantly by white people, let’s see…that would be…the police, the legislators, the military, the CIA…the Church….um, did I leave anyone out?)

  • Cindy

    Were the Romans white? You should have seen those dungeons of London. Boy, those people didn’t fool around.

    Boiling people, drawing and quartering them, racks, maces.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Irene, you are correctly identifying a huge factor that contributes to the sky high black crime rate.

    I will go as far as to say that some of the best minds ever born on this planet conspired to destroy the family unit of the slaves and so to break them, with all the resources of a highly advanced (for that time) society to help them do it.

    However, marriage rates amongst blacks were at their peak in the 1950’s, as I believe I have heard Dr. Walter Williams say, as well as illegitimacy rates being at their lowest.

    Since then, along with the demise of Jim Crow and institutional racism, the divorce rates and the illegitimacy rates as well as the crime rate have skyrocketed together.

    So, I would say, fornication and divorce obviously lead to higher rates of crime and poverty.

    And of course, the Govt then stepped in with the War on Poverty in the 60’s and actually paid poor women to choose men as mates who were unsuitable for marriage.

    I will blame whites for that one… white liberals!

  • Cindy

    CIA what did they kill? 50-100k innocent civilians? Most of them peasants.

    It doesn’t count when you don’t do it to white folk.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra wants ANSWERS.
    I call people out by name, because they signed their names to these statements. The funny thing is that the author of this blog thread has exhibited shock at being asked direct questions given its title. The fact that none of them have directly answered these simple questions is quite fascinating indeed.

    It’s kinda not really a QUESTION when you ask about my views on integration, but rather an implicit ACCUSATION that I don’t support this basic humane ideal that is nearly universal in our country. It’s some bullshit to make the white guy defend himself and prove that he’s NOT Klan or equivalent.

    Alrighty then, for the record, I’m all in favor of integration of all kinds of folk of different ethnic, religious, and sexual preferences – though it’s cool if some folk want to self-segregate. It’s cool with me if some gays like to live in a certain neighborhood, or a lot of old Jews like to live close together. But personally, I tend to like an interesting and provocative mix that can turn me on to cool new things – though I admittedly have a pretty homogenous neighborhood out here on the farm.

    Of course, that homogeneity would be substantially cracked if Macy married me and took to staying on the farm between tours. She’d love my coon dogs. She could even put a dog collar on me and lead me on a leash. She’d find the whole experience relaxing and rejuvenating.

    But now since we’re asking some simple questions, in the best approximation of the same spirit as yours, I’ve got a couple of simple questions just for you, Cobra. What do you think about killing Whitey? Do you believe that’s justified on the basis of our racist history? Also Cobra, do you believe that it would be okay for black men to rape white women, since white men like Strom Thurmond and Thomas Jefferson took advantage of black women for so long?

    I’m not accusing you of anything, mind you. I’m just asking simple questions. I expect a simple reply, please.

    Some might would consider my questions offensive and malicious – but they’re no more so than your so-called “questions” for me.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Todd, with all of your rhetoric and all of your “facts,” here’s a pretty compelling question:

    So?

    Really. What’s the answer? Where does this dialogue go? People sit here, myself sometimes unfortunately included, night and day and night and day sitting in a stew of tossed rhetoric and political ideologies defending them to the hilt. But where does that get us? What are the answers?

    What is your point? To argue something nobody’s going to buy anyways? Where do people go with your conclusions? What actions do people take? What kind of a world do you want to live in? What do YOU want to do with the liberals, the blacks, and everyone else you conveniently blame for the world’s ills?

    Seriously.

    Is there anything after the blame?

    If not, I fear your thoughts and, indeed, all of our thoughts are worth NOTHING but blank words on a page. Especially when the rhetoric and the demonizing (of blacks, of whites, of liberals, of conservatives, of religion, of atheism, of vegans, of meat-eaters, of terrorists, of police, of communists, of everyone) is so hate-filled and angry.

    This cannot be all there is, just hollow words.

    With that said and with a realization made just seconds ago, I’m done using my words so poorly. May this comment be the last time I suffer fools – my foolish heart included.

  • Irene Wagner

    I hear you about the powerful minds, Todd. Stupid is bad, evil is bad, stupid and evil is worse, but smart and evil–those are the one you have to worry about. And they are the ones who will always be in charge.

    Til Shiloh come.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Jordan, I get it.

    Once it starts to sneak up on you that you probably can’t disprove what I said, and that I am right, you then dismiss it, and call me a fool for bringing it up in the first place.

    Just another way of attacking stuff you don’t want to hear.

  • Irene Wagner

    Sorry to be so pessimistic about the world, in the near term anyway, Jordan Richardson. What IS the answer? Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me.

    Somebody on another thread was talking about “true Communism” which he said was embodied by freedom of religion, freedom of speech and love of one’s fellow man. Well by that definition, everyone can be a Communist. Don’t have to wait for a Mao or a neo-con or a neo-Keyne to change the system so one has official permission to be what one wants to be.

  • Cindy

    “Sail Away” is representative of Newman’s trademark unconventional and clever approach to songwriting: it takes the form of “come on” or “pitch” from an American slaver to his potential future slaves. The slaver attempts to convince his listeners to climb aboard his ship and “sail away” with him to America (specifically Charleston), which he portrays as a land of happiness and plenty.

  • Cindy

    Kinda shows a lack of a clue what the Klan really was. It’s good that you’ve grown up so innocent and blissfully unaware of the ugly past.

    The ugly past? I’m all too aware of the ugly present.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Two points to Jordan for catching the Randy Newman. And an extra point for getting the Foghorn Leghorn angle. He’s my favorite Looney Tune, kind of a role model. Role model, I say. Listen up, son.

    Cindy, I don’t know what your problem is, except bouts of female hysteria, what with hateful nonsense like the pointy hat stuff.

    Irene, slave masters certainly did bad things to people, and sometimes ripped families apart and were abusive in all kinds of ways. But they haven’t hurt black families as units the way modern black culture has.

    I don’t know what kind of statistics there would be for actual slave days, but compare divorce rates or illegitimacy rates or any number of factors for black folks from the Jim Crow era to today. Just for starters, “While 31 percent of black children were born to unmarried women in the early 1930s, that proprotion rose to 77 percent in the early 1990s. If unwed childbirth was ‘a legacy of slavery,’ why was it so much less common among blacks who were two generations closer to the era of slavery?” Thomas Sowell Economic Facts and Fallacies

    Wicked as they were, the Klan didn’t begin to destroy black communities like gangster rap and the related cultural attitudes entailed. Nor did they kill as many blacks folk even with the evils of lynching as black folk do to each other today.

    Cindy, I’ll save you the bother of responding. I get a pointy hat for noticing this.

  • Jordan Richardson

    #299, not quite.

    I was asking you questions about the actions you plan to take to follow-up on your mindset. I have no desire to get into a pissing contest, an online war of words, or an endless “factual” comparison. I don’t give a shit what your point is; I only care what you plan to do with it.

    If you’re not going to answer the questions, fine. But don’t sit there and pretend some “victory.”

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    I notice that Cobra has not responded to my questions. The fact that he has not “directly answered these simple questions is quite fascinating indeed.”

  • Cindy

    Irene,

    Well by that definition, everyone can be a Communist. Don’t have to wait for a Mao or a neo-con or a neo-Keyne to change the system so one has official permission to be what one wants to be.

    Only if one can exist outside the present system. And one cannot. And Marx was wrong about a state and its eventual withering away. Thus Anarchism.

    Which to me is virtually what that poster was describing. But, it’s not a selfish proposition. You don’t leave the slaves of Capitalism and happily go off. Part of Anarchism is solidarity. You don’t escape the prison and leave your fellow people locked up.

  • Cindy

    The idea that all human beings deserve a just life hardly can be realized by abandoning the fight.

  • Cindy

    It’s 2 a.m. Al, maybe black people have the sense to know when to go to bed.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    OK, so y’all get that “Sail Away” was a seduction to trick the Africans into getting on the slave ships. Of course that’s mostly not how they loaded the ships. People were often captured by rival African tribes who by turns sold other Africans into slavery.

    But the real irony is that it IS great to be an American. And bad as slavery sucked for those people, their great-great-great grandchildren living in America are generally a damned sight better off than they would be in Africa today – evil cartoonists oppressing them, getting hassled by cops at the mall and all.

    Do I get another pointy hat for noticing that?

  • Cindy

    bouts of female hysteria

    Trying to turn women gay again Al?

  • Cindy

    It is beyond my comprehension that you could make slavery turn out alright in the end.

  • Cindy

    I never gave you one Al, so far it was just Todd. But keep up the good work, you’re making progress toward earning yours.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cindy, it is quite late, and we all need our rest. I might gently suggest that you do tend to get a bit cranky and hateful when you’re tired.

    With a great sense of generosity then, I suppose I’ll allow Cobra till tomorrow to answer my simple questions before I start assuming the answers for myself. Awfully white of me, I know.

    But tomorrow, maybe you can spin for me your fantasy of a “just life” and what exactly that would entail.

  • Cindy

    I am angry Al, not hysterical, cranky, or hateful.

    Well, probably a bit hateful. But, I’m like that when I’m not tired.

    It’s something I like to do for a change when I’m not busy being hysterical.

  • Irene Wagner

    That’s a good question Al and Todd: what happened between the time in the 50’s when black families were stable, and the time they became unstable? Did that trend have anything to do with slavery? No, you’re right, it surely didn’t, because the same thing was happening to white families then. White women tended to abort, and black women had certain incentives, for some cultural, for others financial, not to.

    I wasn’t talking about unwed pregnancy, though, I was talking about violence. There are plenty of positive things that can break that familial chain of violence that stretches back to the slave days, but there are plenty (still a minority, but large when compared to the size of the black population) of families, or genetic lines, maybe I should say, that remain unbroken.

    It was a good thing Jim Crow laws ended, and that Rosa Parks got to ride the bus. At the same time, unfortunately, family breakdowns and violence skyrocketed. Good things happen, and bad things happen at the same time. So it’s looking like we’re in for some good times here in the USA. :)

  • Cindy

    Anyway. Goodnight.

  • Irene Wagner

    And its twelve, and I’ll turn into a pumpkin if I write another word. Good night.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cindy, obviously slavery sucked ass – no two ways about that.

    But here’s another simple question for Cobra: Would you now be better off if your ancestors had never gotten put on the slave ship, and you were now an African tribesman?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Finally, one of the three has an answer I can work with, to at least the first part of my question.

    Al Barger writes:

    “It’s kinda not really a QUESTION when you ask about my views on integration, but rather an implicit ACCUSATION that I don’t support this basic humane ideal that is nearly universal in our country. It’s some bullshit to make the white guy defend himself and prove that he’s NOT Klan or equivalent.”

    The first part of the title of YOUR blog thread is “Eric Holder’s Demagoguery…” I pull quoted what I believe to be the heart of Eric Holder’s speech way back in comment #161:

    “Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

    Voluntarily socially segregated.

    Read that again, Al. If somebody engages in “voluntary social segregation”, that person is by logic, a segregationist.”

    That’s what I posted for YOU about 140 comments ago. The relevance is clear. You called Eric Holder a “demogogue” for his speech. I asked you for your opinion regarding the central theme of his speech; segregation. You say I’m trying to accuse you of something, or intimidate you.

    Al Barger writes:

    “Alrighty then, for the record, I’m all in favor of integration of all kinds of folk of different ethnic, religious, and sexual preferences – though it’s cool if some folk want to self-segregate. It’s cool with me if some gays like to live in a certain neighborhood, or a lot of old Jews like to live close together. But personally, I tend to like an interesting and provocative mix that can turn me on to cool new things – though I admittedly have a pretty homogenous neighborhood out here on the farm.”

    Thank you. You got through the first one. You want to try for the second?

    “Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    Now…your questions, one by one:

    “What do you think about killing Whitey? Do you believe that’s justified on the basis of our racist history?

    If you’re talking about social justice, personally, I’m an advocate of non-violence. MLK was successful because a non-violent stance allows you the moral high-ground.
    If you’re talking about the historical nature of Black violence towards Whites, maybe you should take a little discussed aspect into perspective:

    “In the chapter on African population in the Atlas of World Population History (1978), Colin McEvedy estimates that 9.5 million African slaves were imported into the Americas between 1500 and 1880. He also suggests a 15% mortality rate on the ocean.

    Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870)

    Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead
    Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead
    Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead”

    Hey, I’m actually shocked there were as few slave rebellions and uprisings as there actually were, don’t you think, Al? Todd Yarling’s input would be appreciated here, don’t you think? He’s big on those crime statistics by race, isn’t he?

    And given our afforementioned discussion on the systematic rape-breeding of Black women by White slavemasters, why on Earth would I want to hurt you, Al?

    You might be related.

    Happened to John McCain, remember?

    Al Barger asks:

    “Also Cobra, do you believe that it would be okay for black men to rape white women, since white men like Strom Thurmond and Thomas Jefferson took advantage of black women for so long?

    No. I’m against rape. Period. Studies indicate that most rapes are INTRA-racial. Rape is a crime of location. And in our “voluntarily self-segregated society”, the honest truth is that White women have more to fear from their white acquaintences, blind dates, family members and the boys at the frathouse party than the random Black guy on the street.

    See? I answered all your questions promptly.

    Now, how about MY second question, Al?

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cobra,

    What were those two questions again?

    Are you a segregationist or an integrationist?

    Do you mean by force or voluntarily?

    I don’t believe in forcefully segregating the races at all. That happened in the southern American states and in South Africa before the accession of Nelson Mandela to its presidency. I believe in doing nothing to stop their integration.

    So to give an example from where I live now, Israel, Ethiopian Jews (who are blacks who have left Ethiopia and the Christian persecution they suffered there) should not be forcefully segregated from the rest of Israeli society, or prevented from buying homes amongst other Israelis. ON THE OTHER HAND, if they wish to live in their own neighborhoods, buy all means this should not be prevented. Self-segregation, by the way, is normal pattern of things in the Middle East.

    This is not to say that there is not racial bigotry in Israel. There most assuredly is. And, in my eyes, it is wrong. Period. But what is missing from this bigotry is the background of slavery that blacks in America suffered. So what is also missing is the idea of entitlement that many blacks on the North American continent feel.

    Do I think that the races should mix so that there is no difference within three generations? Why not? We’re all Jews here (except for those of us who aren’t), and that is far more important that the amount of melanin we have (or do not have).

  • http://www.eurocriticsmagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I’ll answer the questions, even if it wasn’t me being asked.

    Cobra asks:

    1. “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist? Neither, I don’t think either position makes any sense.

    2. Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?” Don’t care either way.

    Al B asks:

    1. What do you think about killing Whitey? Depends on the whitey but usually counter-productive.

    2. Do you believe that’s justified on the basis of our racist history? The US sure likes killing, its own people or others, but no.

    3. Do you believe that it would be okay for black men to rape white women, since white men like Strom Thurmond and Thomas Jefferson took advantage of black women for so long? Rape is never okay, unless part of some role play fun.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Did you ever see the book marker that reads don’t monkey around with my book? People in general are grabbing for what they can get. Some of us find our way unconventionally. The you get what you pay for world…man, that sure sounds tougher than imagined it would be the ONLY way. God speaks of charity because it is a good thing to do. To be able to share in a hurting world is a good thing to do. Now, if some of the pious fools can just get off our backs.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    There will be an answer…let it be.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Well, Brother Al, we finally have the peanut gallery hootin’ and hollerin’ here….

    If you wanna'”let her be” we’ll have another thread 1,900 comments long that takes an hour to load.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Chris,

    Your #320 is probably the most sensible thing I’ve heard on this thread yet. To have no stake in either position as answer to question #1 is perhaps the only attitude that’s free of racial bias. For a white person to prefer either one or the other would seem to indicate (to me at least) that they still got some work to do.

  • http://www.eurocriticsmagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Hi Roger,

    Thank you, I like to think of myself as a small beacon of sanity in this crazy messed up world!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cobra,

    “Given all that we as a nation went through during the civil rights struggle it is hard for me to accept that the result of those efforts was to create an America that is more prosperous, more positively race conscious and yet is voluntarily socially segregated.

    Voluntarily socially segregated.

    Read that again, Al. If somebody engages in “voluntary social segregation”, that person is by logic, a segregationist.”

    The above quote is perhaps the crux of the matter. It is – in each and every case, I believe – individual decision. But this kind of issue and any open and honest dialogue between blacks and whites (in order to be productive) must take place in the context and only in the nexus of person-to-person relations – mano a mano. I’m willing to bet that neither Mr. Barger nor his sidekick, Mr. Yarling, would not be as vocal or outspoken about their views with a person of color that they either know, work or associate with.

    It is that, perhaps, that Eric Holder was getting at when he spoke of a “nation of cowards” – the fact that in our social interactions we sort of play the game, present our best foot forwards, do anything in order not to “lose face,” rather than confront the conflict or prejudices that are in our hearts and discuss these questions honestly and openly with our black “brothers, friends, or associates,” thinking somehow it’d violate a social taboo but in reality, because we don’t have the courage either to be confrontational or simply to face up to the ugliness that’s in us. And so the pretense goes on!

    Your thoughts?

  • Cindy

    I’ll give it a try too.

    1. “Are you an integrationist,

    I would like to see a voluntary effort to socially connect. I would like to see discussions of race in classrooms between students of different races. I don’t think people can change their thinking without these things.

    …or a segregationist?

    No.

    2. Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct,

    No.

    or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    This might solve a lot of problems. But it’s a hypothetical question.

  • Cindy

    These are great. :-)

    1. What do you think about killing Whitey? Depends on the whitey but usually counter-productive.

    2. Do you believe that’s justified on the basis of our racist history? The US sure likes killing, its own people or others, but no.

  • http://www.eurocriticsmagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I hope you’ll forgive my number 3, Cindy, it’s my inner beast!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Role-playing is always fun, Chris. We’re all natural at at.

  • Cindy

    Number 3 Christopher? I hadn’t noticed a number 3 :-)

  • Cindy

    Besides, I am in favor of people doing whatever they want with consent.

    This doesn’t prevent me from speculating about why some of them want to do some pretty strange things. lol

  • Cindy

    No implication there re your #3.

  • http://www.eurocriticsmagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I knew it, you’re a speculator!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy’s #319 is by far the most reasonable response to Cobra’s challenge so far.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Right, Doc – especially that part about history and the feeling of entitlement. It is a stumbling block for many.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And for what it’s worth:

    1. I’m all for integration, with the proviso that there should be elements neither of obstruction nor compulsion about it. I’m saddened by the possible cultural losses that would result, but just like so much else in this Darwinian world, cultures disappear all the time and are replaced by new ones which are just as rich and vibrant.

    2. In the US, but for the imposition of an artificial social hierarchy, the concept of race should have been irrelevant within three generations. I doubt there are more than a handful of African-Americans walking around today who have only African blood in their veins. I think that – although to do so rather plays into the hands of bigots – the concept of race is useful in modern America only for historical and discrimination monitoring purposes.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Roger,

    Comment #326 is exactly what I’m talking about. I agree with your stance here. In discussions about segregation on other blogs I’ve noticed that it breaks down to a discussion of de-facto segregation vs. de-jure segregation. De-jure segregation, meaning by law, was supposed to have ended with the CRA of 1964. Segregation as a practice, did not, as Eric Holder and housing demographics indicate. To me, segregation is segregation, whether it’s enforced by a sherriff, or created in the back room by a zoning board or realtor. The end result is the same.

    Christopher Rose suggests in Comment #320 that neither the integrationist or segregationist postion makes sense, but I’d respectfully argue the contrary. Segregation always invites conflict because of its definition–division, isolation, separation, & estrangement. Integration may indeed precipitate conflict at FIRST, but inclusion, unification & familiarity ultimately leads to a strong, societal collective. This was proven by the Irish Immigrant experience I referred to in Comment #199.

    E pluribus unum…that’s what the great seal says, right?

    This isn’t limited, IMHO to Whites, or Americans. Ruvvy’s fine post is testimony to that.
    It is human nature to fear or mistrust that which is different. I believe that for America, which will become a majority non-white nation within 40 years, miscegenation will be the norm and not the exception, anyway. It’s reality right now, as millions of White Americans are walking around with African genes in their DNA, and most of them are have no idea.

    It’s all about “appearences” my friend.

    I also agree with your stance here:

    “It is that, perhaps, that Eric Holder was getting at when he spoke of a “nation of cowards” – the fact that in our social interactions we sort of play the game, present our best foot forwards, do anything in order not to “lose face,” rather than confront the conflict or prejudices that are in our hearts and discuss these questions honestly and openly with our black “brothers, friends, or associates,” thinking somehow it’d violate a social taboo but in reality, because we don’t have the courage either to be confrontational or simply to face up to the ugliness that’s in us. And so the pretense goes on!”

    It goes both ways though, as well. I grew up in a predominantly White neighborhood. I work in an industry that is predominantly White, which is one of reasons I believe segregation is silly and counter-productive. What I’ve noticed about myself, is that there are many times where I’ve been a “coward” on race discussions. Usually it was around acquaintences, as opposed to friends, and as described, I’d be the only Black guy in the room. Some topic would come up, stereotypes would fly out of somebody’s mouth, and then all eyes would turn to me, looking for a reaction.

    Many times I would let things slide, and not be confrontational(if you can believe that coming from me). Sometimes it’s a numbers game. You’d be amazed what you hear in a parking lot full of drunk tailgaters. Sometimes, like with religion or politics, a discussion on race will get heated, personal and raw.

    What I would hope from my friends, and people that I care about, is that they would have enough trust in our relationship to be able to talk about anything, even if we disagree, hug it out, and walk away with the same level of affinity and affection.

    Getting that same level of comity from acquaintences, classmates, workmates and strangers, in a still segregated society, is indeed an act of courage.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    I’ll take this opportunity to note that Al Sharpton and Julian Bond are self-serving crapweasels who don’t really give a rat’s ass about doing anything to actually help the black community – or any other community.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cobra,

    Which finally, after all that static and irrelevance that has been posted on this thread, we are, perhaps, getting to the crucial issue – and I am asking in all honesty now:

    What do you think of Barger’s comment (seconded by Ruvy in #319) concerning allowing for “voluntary segregation” (rather than enforcing the contrary)? I’m not talking of course about what’s more desirable for a civil society. No question about it. But since it is an individual decision, made or not made on a case-by-case basis, how do we proceed from there? Besides, how can anyone enforce something like that?

    Roger

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    PS: I know, of course, you have already expressed your view on this subject, but we need to examine it more closely, I think.

  • Cindy

    In the US, but for the imposition of an artificial social hierarchy, the concept of race should have been irrelevant within three generations.

    So, who imposed those artificial social hierarchies. See what you think of that Tim Wise video I posted above.

    #121

    How about this:

    If the centralized capitalist state(s) were hog-tied, owners and workers would be on a more level political playing field where ‘new accommodations’ could be achieved.

    Sounds like that might work out in this thread.

  • Cindy

    I’ll post it again.

    Tim Wise on the Invention of the White Race

    In this nine and a half minute clip, Tim Wise describes the way in which race was invented by elites in early America in order to divide and conquer the working class… and is still used to do so.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Alrighty then Cobra, you’re intent enough on answers that you answered my bad questions, so I reckon that earns you a considered response to yours. I think your question goes something like, Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?

    I’ll answer that with three points. First, it’s a bad question because it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter a whit what you or I think on this topic. People should marry who they want for love and their own fulfillment. If the blacks want to marry the Greeks, the Koreans want to hook up with Italians, or the cats want to breed with the coons (which would give my coon dogs a unified target), it’s all good. Family planning should absolutely not be a question of social engineering.

    Second, your idea that this will tend to lead to reduced ethnic tensions is mostly true. It’s harder for a Japanese dude to hate the Chinese if he’s married to one and they have children together. That’s good, cause that kind of thing is what’s happening anyway.

    But third, it’d be a shame if we were really completely intermingled. Ethnicity is problematic sometimes, but very good in other ways. Our strength is in our diversity, and all that. We’d be losing something valuable if we were so completely interlocked that we all become a muddle of mutts with no ethnic identity.

    It’s good that there are some tight communities of hardcore Orthodox Jews going to temple. It’s an excellent thing that we have Cubans playing salsa music. And it’d be a shame if American blacks were ALL Obamas. Wouldn’t get any Howlin’ Wolf or Eddie Murphy out of that.

    In short, homogeneity is good to a significant extent, but it’d be a blander and less interesting world without some pockets of ethnicity around.

    Does that sufficiently answer your question?

    And Roger quotes: “If somebody engages in “voluntary social segregation”, that person is by logic, a segregationist.”

    As Prince might say, shut up already, DAMN. It’s not healthy to completely isolate yourself from people who are different, but preferring to live close to people who are like you in some way is fine. Calling it “segregation” is to package-deal it as being equivalent to Jim Crow, which is not at all the same thing.

    We’re going to be mixing it up in the workplace and the supermarket and the sports arenas, but if some Mexicans prefer to live in neighborhoods that are mostly Latino and they hear mariachi music as they walk down the street, there’s nothing wrong with that. If old folks prefer to live in quiet slow moving neighborhoods with the other geezers, that’s good too.

    Again, to finish up with a re-iteration of my first and main point, people should live how, where, and with whom they like without regard for social engineering.

  • Doug Hunter

    Race and class warfare is the only way the left can maintain a foothold in American politics, therefore these conflicts will not be allowed to end.

  • Cindy

    Our strength is in our diversity…

    I have to agree with Al there (despite whether or not I contradict myself).

    I would not like to see all of the diverse ethnic groups assimilated into a “melting pot” designed by the dominant culture.

    I think the dominant culture is fairly narrow-minded, colorless, snobby, elitist, non-creative, etc.

    …homogeneity is good to a significant extent…

    And yet I disagree with this. So, once more I’m confused.

  • Cindy

    (doesn’t say anything to Doug, because I don’t usually engage in hysteria until 3 pm)

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    I notice that Roger wishes to call me a Holder-defined “coward” who “would not be as vocal or outspoken about their views with a person of color that they either know, work or associate with.”

    You don’t know me or Yarling to say that. I wouldn’t force a conversation like this on someone who wasn’t interested. I sure as hell don’t want to be the Meathead insisting on discussing black issues every time Lionel Jefferson comes around. That’s obnoxious and racist. You know, maybe he’s just wanting to listen to some P-Funk and have a couple of beers without a bunch of racial sociological nonsense.

    But when someone expresses an interest in such topics, Yarling or I either one would say the same things we say here. Actually, it works better in person, where there’s tone of voice and such, and particularly with people you know enough to have some personal bonds.

    But no, I would be very hesitant to discuss such things in a workplace, because that can get you fired. Liberal legal nonsense supported and enforced by the likes of AG Holder has largely stifled any real idea of free expression in a workplace.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Roger,

    That’s precisely what the crucial matter is. And to be honest, it can never be completely solved. In a free society, we’re always going to have people who aren’t with the program. Striving for perfection, or unanimity isn’t realistic.

    As with the Irish Immigrant example, I’m sure there are people walking around today, generations later, who have a visceral problem with Irish-Americans, or don’t want to associate with them. Their numbers, however, are probably so miniscule that they’re basically irrelevant to
    American society.

    Similiarly, there are people we will encounter during this discussion who have intractable positions. IMHO, if you think self-segregation is acceptable, you’re a de-facto segregationist. Period. But for me to indict Al or Ruvy for their HONEST answers doesn’t advance the conversation. There was progress made in getting answers to the question in the first place. I’d rather demonstrate to them, with scientific evidence how RACIAL segregation is not only implausible but downright silly.
    My rule of thumb on race is this…I’d rather know where somebody stands on an issue than be left in the dark to make assumptions, and that’s where the courage part comes in.

    Nature is going to solve all of this. Population demographics and time will answer this question eventually. That miscegenation train is rolling. It’s unstoppable. Will there be cliques, klans and tribes that still want to isolate themselves based upon superficiality? Sure. Can’t stop that. Freedom of Association. But think about where our society is heading, Roger? How silly will that self-segregation look to a child growing up today with diversity all around him or her, and at the highest seats of power?

    I believe America is a journey…a work in progress. I’d like to grease the wheels and make it move faster in regards to race, but it will still be moving after me and all the posters here are long gone. A good start would be the American Gnome Map. If tens if not hundreds of millions of people actually knew what was REALLY in their bloodline, we’d be riding on a high-speed train to a more perfect union.

    –Cobra

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cobra,

    Very well said. I’ll have to think further on your comment to respond more intelligently. But my first reaction is – you can’t force people on something like that – so some of Barger’s comments (of late) are more sensible.

    I think what will happen is – as more and more people become colorblind, it’ll spread – just as other ideas (like same-sex marriage, e.g.); it will no longer be shocking because as a society, by and large, we will have acquired (over time) not just greater tolerance but, hopefully, a higher level of consciousness. Those things will not offend our sensibilities then as they still do, in some cases, now.

    So yes, America is a journey! Till later. It’s too bad it takes so goddamn long to get to this basic point.

    Roger

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Let’s go back to the roots of this argument before it became all about whether Barger is some sort of crypto-racist or Cobra is Al Sharpton or somesuch.

    Let’s assume Eric Holder was indeed talking about the cowardice of voluntary racial separation as has been suggested and as seems reasonable.

    Consider these questions.

    What exactly do you think the role of the Attorney General’s office — because that’s what he is, not a preacher or educator — should be in dealing with the choice of BOTH whites and blacks to distance themselves a bit?

    How do you think the Justice department with the kinds of tools at its command could address this problem? Perhaps by forced reeducation camps?

    Of all the thins the Justice Department has to deal with, is this what it’s best suited to address, and is this what you think it should be spending its time on? Is this even within its sphere of authority at all?

    I think these questions get at the root of the problem with Holder making this statement, which I don’t find at all bothersome or controversial as a general statement, except that it came from an official of a government department totally inappropriate to dealing with the issue.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I don’t think this was ever the question, Mr. Nally. I suggest you read a number of posts on this thread before, as is true to your form, you’re going to politicize the issue and therefore muddle it again.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    I don’t actually think Holder places as much significance on his speech — especially the 3 or 4 sentences that caused all the artificial ‘controversy’ — as the author and commenters here do.

    Here’s what he is currently most interested in:

    Attorney General Eric Holder traveled Monday to the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as the Obama administration weighs what is needed to shut the facility.

  • Clavos

    How is questioning the propriety of a politician’s public pronouncement “politiciz[ing] the issue”?

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Dave Nalle is correct to ask what the Govt policy response to voluntary segregation might be.

    Already, in the UK and Canada, people are being brought up before kangaroo courts because their _speech_ is considered ‘harmful to minority or people group’, like for instance, merely repeating the Bible’s stance about homosexuality in public, or musing out loud about the possible negative effects of allowing muslim immigration.

    Last year, in the UK, a teenage girl was pulled out of class by the cops and arrested cause she asked her teacher to give her a study partner that spoke english.

    I have seen the leftists of this country applaud these acts of censorship over and over again on hate sites like the Daily Kos.

    I cannot speak to the motivation of the AG for his speech, but if I jump to the conclusion that it is directed solely at me, a white person, and not the even more pervasive voluntary segregation of blacks, please forgive me.

    I really think that white people have bent over backwards to correct the abuses of the past, and now it is time for the pendulum to swing back the other way, and for blacks to begin the process of self examination to find out how they are contributing to their own problems, and quit blaming us for stuff we didn’t do, after all, the people who did those things are mostly dead, and certainly out of power.

    Perhaps the AG was referring to all of us, but somehow, I doubt it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Dave was, or at least trying to. The problem of racism, if there is such a thing, runs across party lines. Eric Holder, I’d like to believe, spoke in his own voice, not as an exponent of the party in power.

    You’re free, of course, to believe otherwise.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I think it was already more or less decided here, Mr Yarling, that “voluntary segregation” is a dead horse and that it’s not up to the government trying to enforce it. So I really don’t see why you’re trying to raise the issue?

    Do you have a secret agenda, or shall I simply have to regard your last comment as some kind of sour grapes? And if so, then against whom?

  • Cindy

    Todd,

    Your focus, particularly in your last posts makes your position clear.

    Al?

    I don’t get that same thing from you. Please enlighten me.

    Do you agree with your friend’s last posts?

    Who can’t benefit from a clear view of the people one talks to?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Todd won’t answer. And Mr. Barger has been vindicated. Case closed – I think.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    The govt does battle against voluntary segregation to this very day, Roger Nowosielsk. So, it is not a dead horse issue.

    Hopefully, it won’t get worse. I see the main trend coming in the form of censorship in order to foster a certain world view, and by censorship, I mean backed by the full force of the power of Gov’t.

    Today, most of the censorship happens in schools ran by leftist holdovers from the 60’s, but the trend globally (at least in the West) is for Gov’t to become actively involved in persecuting speech and thots its finds objectionable.

    There is one area, where the govt’s have already taken the gloves off in the USA, and that is over the abortion issue. Just about every day I read about peaceful pro lifers being arrested for demonstrating on public property.

    I am not bitter about it, I understand it as the sin of man rising to the head in these last days, as ‘the kings of the earth take their stand’.

    I merely mention it, cause its true, and rarely spoken of.

  • Cindy

    Looks like Todd answered the question.

  • Cindy

    Sorry Todd,

    How “female” of me to presume your answer.

    Why not do what you say in your #273, and not be a coward?

    Why have a mere woman guess your ideas?

  • http://bunda.org Jeremy Salow

    You seriously are arguing that what Holder said is incorrect, that we are not so frightened that we can’t frankly discuss racial matters? What country do you live in, certainly not the United States.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I’ll answer tomorrow, Todd. It’s been a long day. And I do thank you for speaking your mind.

  • Irene Wagner

    Woops sorry, Roger, I didn’t see Cobra’s invitation to me in #282 til just now. I read Al Barger’s answer, and found it expressed exactly how I felt. Cobra says, though, that segregation, even voluntary, will be silly-looking a few generations from now.

    He’s right, I suppose, and that’s how it should be. The Motown, gospel, blues and jazz that I love is preserved on electronic media–it won’t be going anywhere while times change. That music represents transcendence, a reach toward beauty and hope (sometimes as faint as a gritty determination to be HEARD) from the depths of pain and oppression.

    History is, and is likely to continue being, a sad succession of different kinds of oppression. Maybe there’s a new kind of music waiting to be born.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    We’re all coming around, Irene, slowly perhaps but surely. Sorry about misreading your post the other day – two referents in one sentence but I should have known better. Al is coming around, sort of, so there is a meeting of minds, one could say. It would be so much easier in person. You have no idea how persuasive I can be in flesh – if I so desire. A real Casanova. Not that Al would be the target. But the “weaker sex,” that I couldn’t guarantee.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    By the way, watching an apropos movie, “Amazing Grace,” concerning the stoppage of slave trade in England. Things haven’t change much since, except for the artifacts. People are still mean and self-centered. Nothing enough love.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Dave Nalle writes:

    “What exactly do you think the role of the Attorney General’s office — because that’s what he is, not a preacher or educator — should be in dealing with the choice of BOTH whites and blacks to distance themselves a bit?

    The speech by AG Holder was to members of the Department of Justice. Are you aware of what the Bush Department of Justice was up to the past 8 years?

    “Bush administration Justice Department appointee Bradley Schlozman swore under oath before the Senate Justice Committee in 2007 that he had never used a political litmus test in hiring when he worked at the Civil Rights Division. However, a new report from the Justice Department indicates that he did just that…”

    “…Schlozman’s racism was also on view in one email that described an applicant with a magna cum laude degree from a top law school as “an idiot … an affirmative action thing … wrote in ebonics.”

    And Schlozman cheerfully forwarded to another employee an email he had received from the chief of the voting rights division, saying he liked his coffee “Mary Frances Berry style — black and bitter,” a reference to the longtime head of the Civil Rights Commission. Schlozman’s comment was, “Y’all will appreciate Tanner’s response.”

    Talking Points Memo reports that although the author of the “black and bitter” remark, John Tanner, is now working for the Alabama Law Institute, his salary is still being paid by the Justice Department for “racially charged” work involving the redrawing of legislative districts.

    Under Schlozman’s influence, the voting rights division neglected civil rights in favor of upholding discriminatory laws and pursuing bogus allegations of voter fraud that were used to purge voting roles.

    “Perhaps the Division will name an award for me or something,” Schlozman wrote when he departed in 2006 to become the US Attorney in Missouri. “How about the Brad Schlozman Award for Most Effectively Breaking the Will of Liberal Partisan Bureaucrats.” Raw Story

    You do remember the Vote caging and purging of Blacks from voter rolls, don’t you Dave? Bush Department of Justice appointee Monica Goodling did.

    “This Monica revealed something hotter — much hotter — than a stained blue dress. In her opening testimony yesterday before the House Judiciary Committee, Monica Goodling, the blonde-ling underling to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Department of Justice Liaison to the White House, dropped The Big One….And the Committee members didn’t even know it…

    …”Goodling testified that Gonzales’ Deputy AG, Paul McNulty, perjured himself, lying to the committee in earlier testimony. The lie: McNulty denied Monica had told him about Tim Griffin’s “involvement in ‘caging’ voters” in 2004.
    Huh?? Tim Griffin? “Caging”???…”

    The Bush Department of Justice under AG Alberto Gonzales and Deputy AG Peter McNulty was a toxic swamp in regards to Civil Rights. New Attorney General Eric Holder should ABSOLUTELY do what he can to get these issues of race out in the open & on the table, as he must deal with career Bush Justice appointees who according to documents, don’t neccessarily have the best interests of minority Americans in mind.

    –Cobra

  • Irene Wagner

    Todd, the distinction between far-left and far-right has become fuzzy/nonexistent (perhaps one of the divisions you mentioned before that has been hyped by that conglomerate of extremes so “just folks” will be at odds with one another. Divide and conquer. That’s not tin hats. It’s basic football strategy. Topics like the ones you are bringing up can never be discussed reasonably and with respect when people are shouting from behind their Left and Right fortresses.

    Race is only one of many topics that push people’s buttons. If I don’t get out NOW, Todd, much as I’d like to support you as you defend the rights of the unborn and freedom of speech in general, I’ll be writing comment #666 on this thread, I know I will. Maybe Baronius will show up…he and I have been the bottom dwellers of such threads before.

    Roger Nowo–aw, don’t worry about it. I tried to convey the idea that I thought it was all rather funny, but it’s hard to hear laughter through the comments. And you were right about its being unclear, and IMPROVING ONE ANOTHER’S WRITING IS ULTIMATELY WHAT WE ARE HERE FOR. :)

    PS Amazing Grace. An amazing movie. And an amazing reality. But I gotta go. I’m celebrating Mardi Gras early.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    the distinction between far-left and far-right has become fuzzy/nonexistent

    This seems to me utter nonsense. Do you read the comments on some of these threads? Do these people really sound the same to you? Very strange observation.

    PS Irene, I’m still not sure why you made my comment about Kenn Jacobine the object of a guessing game in an earlier comment. But I do stand by it. Kenn was using one-line insults of Hillary Clinton, Tim Geithner and others instead of making actual arguments and points.

    Maybe you think I’m ‘ad hominem’ too — but on here, it’s usually only when I’m provoked, and I try to go after the dumb argument rather than the dumb individual.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Mr. Nally

    Roger, my name isn’t spelled with a “y” nor is it pronounced the way you suggest. If you want to spell it phonetically that’s fine – try “Nawl.”

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The speech by AG Holder was to members of the Department of Justice. Are you aware of what the Bush Department of Justice was up to the past 8 years?

    Unless I’m very much mistaken the Bush administration left office almost a month ago and no longer controls the Justice Department.

    You do remember the Vote caging and purging of Blacks from voter rolls, don’t you Dave? Bush Department of Justice appointee Monica Goodling did.

    No, Cobra. I prefer to stick with facts. The caging and purging, which were legal practices, did not inherently target people on the basis of race, it just happens that minorities are more likely to have fraudulent, illegal or irregular voter registration status.

    The Bush Department of Justice under AG Alberto Gonzales and Deputy AG Peter McNulty was a toxic swamp in regards to Civil Rights. New Attorney General Eric Holder should ABSOLUTELY do what he can to get these issues of race out in the open & on the table, as he must deal with career Bush Justice appointees who according to documents, don’t neccessarily have the best interests of minority Americans in mind.

    So they should all be pre-judged just because they are Bush appointees? Perhaps they should just purge all Bush appointees as previous Democratic administrations have done with Republican appointees in the DoJ.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    As in nawlins?

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Cindy, do get a referral payment for each person who visits the Wise article through your links?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Dave writes:

    “No, Cobra. I prefer to stick with facts. The caging and purging, which were legal practices, did not inherently target people on the basis of race, it just happens that minorities are more likely to have fraudulent, illegal or irregular voter registration status.”

    Why do you persist in disagreeing with me, just to disagree?
    After all this time, don’t you know by now that I back up my arguments with documentation? Do you realize how much credibility you lose by making statements like that?

    Vote Caging

    “In 1981, the Republican State Committee New Jersey and the Republican National Committee sent a mailing targeting primarily African-American and Latino neighborhoods.[3] A lawsuit was filed, DNC v. RNC, and as part of a 1982 settlement in the case the Republican National Committee admitted wrongdoing and agreed to:

    “…refrain from undertaking any ballot security activities in polling places or election districts where the racial or ethnic composition of such districts is a factor in the decision to conduct, or the actual conduct of, such activities there and where a purpose or significant effect of such activities is to deter qualified voters from voting.”
    The settlement was legally binding and applicable nationwide.”

    Go to the link, readers. Look at the long list of vote caging cases. I don’t care if people disagree with my opinions, but denying reality…

    -Cobra

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Cobra, you’re on a short rope talking credibility. Your own link makes absolutely clear that the selection of neighborhoods for caging was based not on ethnic criteria as you erroneously suggest, but on how those areas voted in previous elections. If the areas happened to be of a particular ethnicity then perhaps the fault lies with the Democratic party for not pursuing more ethnic and economic diversity.

    Plus your link also demonstrates that the GOP officials in the states where caging was brought up as an issue (still not illegal, note) used pretty reasonable methods to determine who should be challenged based on having moved without filing a change of address with the local registrar of voters.

    I agree that caging is a pretty hardcore and unappealing practice, but it’s legal and legitimate to keep people from voting who have failed to meet the legal requirements for registration. And the truth is that when caging lists have been used they have excluded whites and republicans as well as minorities. Perhaps not as many, but they aren’t capable of picking out the minorities or the democrats for exclusive persecution, because they are basically impartial.

    So, pass a law outlawing caging lists in your state. But combine it with a statewide requirement that voters produce a state-issued ID as proof of residency. Problem solved. Everybody happy.

    Dave

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    In the name of progress, will people stop generalizing? The “blacks” say they don’t want to live their lives being a color but remind us of it constantly. Not all “whites” need to get it right either and that remark irked me off. Now a chimp gets judged for ALL chimps as pets to come. In view of the circumstances, he simply bit a hand the first time but no….no one got it, he wanted to be left alone. To humanize him so or expect too much may have been their downfall. He sent a body language message and they ignored it.
    Does that mean all chimps cannot be kept as pets? Compare apples to oranges or something you people with too much time on your hands and wasting time.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    When bug spray came to the market, did I dwell on killing massive amounts of pests or leap with joy? When guns were invented, and people no longer had to sharpen rocks or find a heavy club or gas that kills…in our brutality formed democracy of which the rules conflict and override and create a stir…and we wonder why people panicked? Why it did not go as planned and perhaps a chicken in every pot was not what we all wanted? Killing sprees…the infamous gun made intentionally. No one would have imagined that it would come to this? No? When recorded history shows that man is violent, cruel, territorial, possessive, unrelating to God, and worst of all…braggarts and self-lovers. Get them into groups and they believe in unity. You cannot simply rely on laws. Haven’t we learned the hard way?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    rabble means tumultuous crowd
    What is your problem people?
    Don’t you know how to relax?
    Don’t you know how to get along?
    Don’t you know when to quit?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Why Mary, did you just call black people “chimps” — shame, shame. Only George Bush can be called a “chimp.”

    Dave

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    It will not be the color of Obama that will make his Presidency difficult. It is the time that we are dealing with. Issues that have long gone unchecked. Obama is no different than any other man in office. If I took office, I would change this world in a matter of days. That is a promise.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    When men take oaths UNDER GOD…do they realize what they are saying? When people talk about peace but no peace results, can you go figure?
    It takes less than six months to build a house and the greed of the capitalists want income from that one home for the duration. Unfair. We have to change the system of beliefs and principles. God warned us of this. God is God and let me tell you, I was sent back and I have proven it.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    reformation.org/nato

    I was indeed born saying my name is Mary and God sent me back.

    Others heard God as well confirm it.

    Others saw the miracles.

    I cannot change the world alone but with God’s help.

    There are over 1,500,00 sites to confirm what I say about the miraculous photos.

    This is what I was born like this for.

    You can take it or leave it, but if I were you,
    I would pay strict attention to a baby like myself.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    In the movie, Lord of the Rings…the woman goes to battle.

    I am no man.
    I am no ordinary woman either.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I am still seeking miraculous photos stolen in Burbank, California by Warner Brothers.

    Reward for anyone who can find the pictures with negatives for solid proof that I indeed the Fatima.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    In the meanwhile, Warren Furman was the photographer and is still alive and living in Montrose, Pa where because of the many miracles, they wrote a book about me behind my back.
    God told me to go find it one morning and I did.
    Christian Signs and Symbols.

    You might benefit from knowing that I deserve respect.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Imbeciles and infidels!

    This world cannot expect one like myself to contain my anger any longer.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Dave Nalle writes:

    “Cobra, you’re on a short rope talking credibility. Your own link makes absolutely clear that the selection of neighborhoods for caging was based not on ethnic criteria as you erroneously suggest, but on how those areas voted in previous elections. If the areas happened to be of a particular ethnicity then perhaps the fault lies with the Democratic party for not pursuing more ethnic and economic diversity.”

    Exactly what part of “the Republican National Committee admitted wrongdoing” do you need further explaination for?

    Why are you digging this hole for yourself? What could you possibly gain by supporting voter suppression in the form of vote caging:

    “The reason caging is illegal is because qualified voters could be disfranchised simply because of the high possibility that data errors for various reasons and voters’ changing addresses could result in undelivered mail, rather than any problem with their qualifications. The fact that the mailings used to cage voters had ‘do not forward’ printed on them resulted in disproportionately disfranchising college students away at college, citizens who move often, and soldiers overseas.

    You see readers? Do you now understand why I’m direct and confrontational in my questions? Do you comprehend what Dave is saying in the last sentence? He’s trying to blame Democrats for disenfranchising the votes of black soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, when it’s a Republican generated caging list.

    I can’t make this stuff up, people.

    Glenn Contrarian already got Dave on Vote Caging back in Nov. 2008, showing it as a clear violation of voting rights law in Comment #31. The fact that Dave Nalle doesn’t think caging is illegal doesn’t matter. Dave Nalle isn’t a Federal Judge.

    –Cobra

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Stop saying Jesus pray for me fight for me and look at me now.

    I am the one who came back.

    Momma is mad.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    You who do not know what’s what here…
    let me fill you in.
    First off, I am not prejudiced at all.
    Secondly, I pray for miracles.
    Thirdly, I won the graduation class slogan…
    The world we can change, the world we can fix, we are the class of ’76.

    I do not run my mouth.

    A fool has to say something…
    I have something to say.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I am like an ENT tree…side?
    I am on nobody’s side because
    nobody is on my side.

    Well except for God and that is a plus.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    You know what’s wrong with the world> I do.
    We’re half assed. We’re lukewarm. We’re nitwits.
    Scallywags, scoundrels, misfits, numbskulls.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Business as usual…ignoring God as usual…
    being stubborn and hard necked as usual…
    and willful, don’t leave that out.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Do you think God was trying to pat us on the back for that? HUH?

    It is going to take a few good men and one helluva a woman to change this world now.

    Wish me luck.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I lost the ego.
    I gained God.
    That’s what you need to do.

    So do it!

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    We’re all in this world together.
    God is watching us.
    You know, you really ought to be more mindful.
    My sister came in on my praying.
    She said who are you talking to?
    I told her God was there.
    She laughed.
    I said he will show you a sign.
    The ashtray flew off the coffee table.

    I AM NOT A FAKE
    I AM NOT A FAKE!

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Some people are truly ordained by God…not men.
    Some of us sit by the wayside observing.
    The cheese sandwich miracle at Golden Palace is my sandwich.
    God gave me that miracle when praying.
    I am the Fatima Prophecy.
    I went on Al Barger’s article blog
    about it because I am her.
    I will not deny my birthright.
    EVER so you just forget about it.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I don’t vote.
    I pray.
    I know, you can laugh.
    I don’t care either.
    But the signs and wonders
    are from my prayers.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Right now I only care to mention some rules…
    golden rules.
    It’s HOW you play the game that matters.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    If Obama does not get away from the masses that never have changed this world, he won’t do it either.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    We talk about joblessness like cry babies.
    We forgot about the era of modern technology which produced many wonderous jobs and added
    much vitality and morale. I am so sick of the doom and gloom. To keep it under wraps is what we need to do. People made lots of babies expecting good things. Oversight? Perhaps. But I blame the system for not operating on all cylinders if you will. For not firing ones who do not help but hinder and for the gradual decline of morale?
    I would love to blame the devil. But alas, people are to blame.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Good, Obama won by the casting your ballots.
    But I will win because I really believe in God.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra, for one thing you’re reaching pretty far to indict the Republicans based on a halfass story from nearly 30 years ago. The fact that they got beaten into admitting legally to some kind of supposed wrongdoing under what kind of jackleg legal pressure doesn’t really mean there was anything to it. It’s perfectly reasonable, and not abusive or anti-democratic to make some kind of effort to make sure that voter registrations are legitimate.

    Democrats could do such things in more Republican neighborhoods, except that Republicans generally aren’t pumping up their roles through ongoing massive fraud. There’s no Republican ACORN.

    I notice further down you apparently argue that it’s illegitimate to try to purge the voter roles of illegitimate registrations on the grounds that you might mistakenly knock out a few legitimate voters. That’s pretty bogus, right there.

    That’s just license for cheating, cause there’s no way to be 100% accurate. So therefore, on the off chance of a few legitimate voters being knocked out, we’d have to leave 1000 bogus ACORN registrations. Look, Obama is already setting up to cook the books with the next census.

    At the risk of getting another pointy hat for getting close to a monkey metaphor, are you supporting Obama’s attempt to turn the country into a banana republic? I see he likes Chavez and the Venezuelan “democracy” model.

    Nalle- I don’t think Mary was particularly comparing black people and chimps. She seemed to be expressing sympathy for the actual chimp that got shot.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    “Voter caging.”

    This is unbelievable, Cobra. I had no idea such practices existed.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    To me, winning is making people do the right thing.
    To me, winning is to see minimal suffering.
    To me, winning is how you play the game.
    To me, it means showing the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD
    that Jesus is the son of God and was sent for our sakes.

    Thus, I was born saying my name is Mary and God sent me back.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    The come back kid?
    Don’t kid yourselves.
    It was not just some made up story.

    Even the government came upon hearing God to find me as a child.

    Taking me privately to a secluded lot saying God told us to find you, give us proof now

    and they said I passed the test.

    Of course I did.

    I am the baby born speaking.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    There are many religious sites and many nuts out there. There are legions of liars people.
    I am not lying.
    Al Barger has proof in his hot little hands.
    I have my own private collection that is not so private now. Eckerd’s Drugs has a photo of me with a white cloud over me.
    It seems like no big deal unless you were there when I said this photo will not come out normal before it was taken of me.

    HUH HUH….it’s me.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    So when you are reading hot little paperbacks on reincarnation and Eric Olsen has a current miracle that I asked from God and you are saying to yourselves, how can this be? When you die and go to Heaven or Hell…don’t say but…but…
    but what? Idiots? You did not see the signs?
    You did not listen to this child telling you that God sent her back?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I wrote to Obama campaigners with a direct command to let Obama read and see what God told me to tell him. See the country as an aquarium, if one fish dies, you ought to be concerned because it means something is wrong. Maybe I feel too much, is that it? Maybe I think too much.
    Maybe God does not make trash or nuts when it comes to Mary. Don’t forget that.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    We all need understanding. Wasn’t that a radio show? YEP and all creatures large and small do too.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I think that it was meant that Al Barger and I crossed paths. For one thing, you need to know that reincarnated or not, God put me in a family that has quite a past. Here comes this God loving child into a power hungry family line and they tried to kill me. Yes! You are not seeing the true picture here. I did not belong in the Reynolds family because I do not think like them. I have always had a mind of my own. Hippie like or not…it was what I was going through at the time. I also made people millionaires and I was not some dirty no good hippie. Shame on those who said that.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Now about the world at large because if I said it once, I said it a thousand times…I am Mary Reborn.

    The miracles are real, I am doing considerably better,thanks to those who knew I deserved a hand up.

    I am back in the limelight again…

    There are sound and sane reasons why God made me like I am.

    Do not ridicule me or put me down for it again.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Job applications can also turn against some job applicants. Now an employer takes advantage of one smarter for his own benefit. Fires him and pats himself on the back. I am such a case of this. I worked for Winn Dixie for an immoral man named Bob Johnson. I made lots of people rich and happy but because I would not submit to him, he fired me. Winn Dixie got very rich, I got the boot.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    First come, first serve and qualified or able to be trained comes to mind.
    Do we need to say the worst off ones need to work?
    If we were decent minded and caring souls, we might.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Whatever Mary’s actual intent, the practical result of her posts is to make this thread unreadable by us mere mortals.

    Take a chill pill, girl.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Now you’re really going to get her going.

  • Irene Wagner

    Handyguy the quote had to do with what you had just said to Al Barger (I thought it was unfair and dismissive). You were doing the same thing to him that you accused Kenn Jacobine of doing to Clinton.

    If anyone else dug through that thread to see who made that comment I’d be surprised – I thought you would know who had said it and why I was quoting you.

    Apparently that wasn’t clear, and I’m to blame.
    Anyway, as I said to Al, less said, sooner healed.
    I’m not going to say anything more about it, or anything at all.

    I once knew a really sweet lady who sounded like Mary Reborn once. She got kind of confused after a hysterectomy, and was seeing things a little more clearly afterwards. Or maybe Mary Reborn isn’t confused, and the rest of us (including me) are.

    Anyway Mary, have a good day. I’m spending too much time on the Internet, though, it isn’t good for either one of us :)

    Take care Handyguy, and I’m sorry for bungling the whole thing.

  • bliffle

    Dave says:

    “The reason it won’t change minds on the right is that they don’t consider themselves racists.”

    That’s the problem.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Ha, what do some think being in office means?
    We shall find out if Obama will make HIS people of color happy. If not, maybe we ought to watch out for their anger to get out of control. I mean people have a tendancy to be brats.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    If you can see ahead like I see ahead that is.
    I am most definitely a seer.
    Unreadable, go ahead and try your stupid luck.
    Idiot.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Because take me to your leader is impossible with me but I can show you his powers.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Where is Jim Davis at? Jim, who attended Dunedin Elementary School with me…Calling Jim Davis…
    the one I gave two drawings to…Alf and Garfield.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Will the real Jim Davis please enter this blog?
    I need your testimony.
    Did I not take a picture of our third grade class and asked you and Jeff Moore to touch your heads?
    Tell them why I asked you to do this.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    The artist can prove herself folks.
    I made people famous and rich.
    VERY RICH.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    So the point is a turn of events.
    I also made blacks very rich and famous.
    If they finally get to be President as they see it, then they blast whites to get it right?
    Excuse me, now you pissed me off.

  • Cindy

    Now there is the problem. The blessed virgin has been busy making people rich and famous.

    That is corroborated by a lot of late night TV preachers.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Oh, I made preachers stand up and take notice of the signs and wonders I PRAYED FOR TOO.

    Yeah, I did.

    And you know what?
    Some call me Lady Luck.

    Yeah, know why?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    The last chapter of the Bible has not been written.

    Anyhow, this country often thinks of the big fish eating the small fish.

    The hunter shall be hunted.

    And never, I mean never, forget what that small fish did for the big fish.

    NEVER~

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Hey, don’t blame her. Rev. Ike, remember him, was the one who had started it.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Don’t call me Virgin, would you like me to call you that?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Still, I wrote the churches about a vision of three states that I had in a dream.

    The vision came true.

    Waco, TX was one.

    But you can’t explain me….
    but I can.

    While I am still alive.

    I get out of bed one night, walk into the living room and tell my parents…

    something big is about to happen.

    I go back to bed…

    The next day the paper read…

    Something big happened…
    Timothy McVeigh caused that one.

    And meanwhile, the world keeps on turning
    and I hear God tell me Kennedy must die.

    I go home, what’s on TV? Kennedy was shot.

    Oh well, fucking crazy world.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Down go the evil cities…
    one by one.
    Down go the evil doers…
    who had so much fun.
    Down go the crooked politicians
    Down go the famed on Idol crowing like a crow
    Down they go, easy does it, take it slow

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    AHHHHHHH

    You are in the last days.

    Going down folks.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Money doesn’t save you.
    Money won’t get you through.
    You better realize what God meant
    Yeah you better get a clue.

    I am Mary Reborn…asking for the signs…

    You want to ridicule me but brother I say

    watch out…it’s time.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    shut up now!

    No experts in here except me.

    No chill pill needed.

    You all need a dose of humility.

    It is on the way.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Riding home on my bicycle, I say while neighbors are outside…statues will cry again.
    Go inside…what’s on TV?

    Statues weeping again.

    How do I know?

    Cause think about jerks….

    I told you how many times?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    Al Barger has the men in black miracle.
    I prayed for this while the camera was still inside of my purse.

    I am not a mental patient.

    Assholes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Comments editors: Doc & Christopher.

    SPECIAL ALERT!

    Perhaps we should open up a special thread dedicated just to Mary the Prophetess. She deserves one.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    GOD is not dead.

    Oh yeah, you don’t see him showing you his wallet with the new ways to convey the ten commandments, do you?

    Oh, here see the new laminated ten commandments?

    No, but you see God through me…

    a seer, a prayer warrior, the woman John Lennon
    prepared you to know….

    Mother Mary comes to me, whispering words of wisdom, Let It Be.

    I am that Mary.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Irene, to clarify, I was doing to Clarence Thomas what Kenn did to Hillary and Geithner — although I did it by implication, not direct insult. Al, like Mary, was only the vessel.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    It’s a fine line of who we are and what we’re going after….
    but one that God knows who to put where and on what side.

    Don’t call me Virgin Mary…that is not funny.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger writes:

    “Cobra, for one thing you’re reaching pretty far to indict the Republicans based on a halfass story from nearly 30 years ago. The fact that they got beaten into admitting legally to some kind of supposed wrongdoing under what kind of jackleg legal pressure doesn’t really mean there was anything to it. It’s perfectly reasonable, and not abusive or anti-democratic to make some kind of effort to make sure that voter registrations are legitimate.”

    Now, to be perfectly honest, I don’t have a problem with honest, non-partisan attempts by election officials to make sure that voter registrations are legitimate.

    The cases I link to can’t even remotely be defined as “honest” or “non-partisan.” I know this, because the lists of names are available.
    We know where the districts are, and the ethnicities of the folks who live in those targetted districts. Look at the case lists.

    Al, I don’t have to go back 30 years. Caging happened in the Bush Administration. Monica Goodling, which is the link I provided, testified to that in Congress in the Fall of 2008. And just so people don’t think I’m making this up:

    “In his recent book “Armed Madhouse,” author Greg Palast shares a frightening exposé about vote caging activities of the Bush Administration. Palast writes that in the late summer and fall of 2004, the Republican National Committee developed a caging list of voters in predominantly black areas of Jacksonville, Florida. The scheme came to light when Tim Griffin, then the Research Director and Deputy Communications Director for the RNC, mistakenly sent an email with the subject line “caging” to an email address at georgewbush.org, a political parody website whose operators sent it to the press. Griffin had meant to send the list to a Republican operative with an email address at georgewbush.com, the official Bush campaign email suffix, but he mistakenly sent it to the .org address instead.

    Griffin’s email contained an Excel spreadsheet “Caging-1.xls,” containing the names of 1,886 Florida voters, mostly black, including the names of black soldiers deployed abroad.[3]

    Griffin, an aide to Rove, was later appointed interim U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Arkansas. It seems likely that Griffin was appointed to this post under the authority of the now repealed provision of the USA PATRIOT Act (that permitted U.S. Attorneys to be replaced without Senate approval) so that Griffin would not be subjected to questioning about his vote caging activities in Florida. Monica Goodling testified that Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty failed to disclose his knowledge of Griffin’s caging scheme when he previously testified before Congress.”

    Griffin eventually resigned from the U.S. Attorney position, and rejoined the Republican National Committee as an opposition researcher, and worked for the McCain campaign.

    Al, I’m not saying there aren’t voting problems and irregularities among Democrats, or among African-Americans. Nobody is without blemish in this society. But this again, is another case where people have to start being honest, especially when the evidence is overwhelming.

    –Cobra

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    That’s like calling me baby and I don’t like that either.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I read that Al. About voters and the way the system is run at present. If the majority told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?
    Well, I am not a dummy.
    But the situation here is that the necessary evil we use as money has also given us headaches, plagues, crime, and unfairness.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    If I told you that it is up to all of us to change the world and we need to wisen up, would you balk and complain?

    Or wait to find out what can happen and never do one stupid thing differently?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I don’t represent the poor, the rich, the blacks, the whites, the Jews, the atheists, the dumb asses either.

    When I was born, I knew something was unusual about me.

    I knew that I had some kind of persona about me.

    When God told me to go to a pink Baptist Church in Tampa,Florida and tell them how I was born,
    I knew God was telling me to go there.

    So don’t mess with my head, my heart, or my mission.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I think this thread has become unusable, Cobra. It’s been preemptied.

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    I am still looking for the Baptist Pastor who heard God tell him that I am Mary sent back and can prove that by the color blue.

    Mind you, I was only three years old.

    Remember when Jesus made quite the impression?

  • http://cathie.hitecharts.com Mary Reborn

    We’re still talking about the condition of the USA. I happen to be a citizen and see into the real concerns. Maybe you people just are inept.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Come back, Roger, it’s all okay now!

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Since Cobra wants to talk about the past, whether distant or recent, instead of talking about today, and since this is a thread about monkeys, remember all the ‘Bush Chimp’ pics that the Left spammed around the internet?

    There was no outrage from these people back then. So obviously comparing monkeys to presidents, which wasn’t intended in the cartoon, is ok.

    However, I do remember the Florida NAACP claiming that Bush would bring back slavery. I don’t remember an apology being issued, and I commended Bush at the time for refusing to speak at the NAACP.

    If this is the socalled black leadership, and this is their attitude, why should we take anything they say seriously?

    As an aside, I have yet to meet a regular Joe black person who considers Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson a leader, or at least, who admits to this.

    I suspect these people are white liberals media and educational matrix elites idea of a black leader. If I was black, that alone would be enough to make me go ballistic!

  • Irene Wagner

    Cindy — sorry, I missed your comment to me regarding anarchism to me. I didn’t mean to ignore it. There’s too much real estate on this thread –(aside) even before you spoke up, Mary Reborn–for me to be able to see everything. In the interest of letting Al Barger use his inbox again, I think I’ll leave that discussion for another day :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Well, apparently Christopher had resumed control. For a while, I thought I would need a Davinci code or some other such thing to decipher the deeper meaning.

  • Cindy

    lol Roger!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Was she erased or what?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    BTW, I did answer those questions.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I thought Mary’s unique rantings were restricted to certain threads in the Culture section.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Don’t give her any ideas, Dave.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Todd Yarling, I’m gonna answer your questions, even though you refuse or are AFRAID to answer mine.

    “Since Cobra wants to talk about the past, whether distant or recent, instead of talking about today, and since this is a thread about monkeys, remember all the ‘Bush Chimp’ pics that the Left spammed around the internet?

    Yeah. I remember them. If you don’t see the vastly different historical significance, we’re not having an honest conversation.

    ” So obviously comparing monkeys to presidents, which wasn’t intended in the cartoon, is ok. “

    The monkey depicted in the Post cartoon is shot and killed by police. Draw the obvious conclusion from your statement.

    “If this is the socalled black leadership, and this is their attitude, why should we take anything they say seriously? …

    …”I suspect these people are white liberals media and educational matrix elites idea of a black leader.”

    Actually, I’m going to watch the LEADER of the Free World tonight as he addresses Congress and the Nation.

    Pssst…Todd? He happens to be Black.

    –Cobra

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Cobra,

    “The monkey depicted in the Post cartoon is shot and killed by police. Draw the obvious conclusion from your statement.”

    There’s of course another possible inference that is being conveniently overlooked: Obama happens to be a black whereas George Dubya wasn’t; and that’s where the parallel breaks down.

  • Hope and Change?

    Gibbs hints at ‘Reaganesque’ speech tonight…….Knowing King Baryy he will probably include some lines from “Bedtime for Bonzo”

    People who see racism everywhere are racists….

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Yes, Obama, unfortunately, is the leader of the USA.

    Thank you for reminding me.

    I wasn’t talking about Obama, tho, and you must know this. I was talking about the NAACP, Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson, the socalled ‘black leaders’.

    Let me say it again. I don’t think these people are leaders in anyone’s mind except in the minds of the white liberal establishment.

    And it is silly to take people like this seriously. Not long ago, they were accusing Bush of bringing back slavery. Now they are intentionally misconstruing a cartoon, seemingly in order to perpetuate racial strife in this country.

    Given that the number one factor actually affecting black people in the USA in 2009 is the high crime rate amongst blacks, I could care less about this ‘monkey business’.

  • Hope and Change?

    At first Al Sharpton wanted to organize a protest againts the police for using too much force against an umarmed monkey!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra, you’re kind of affirming Yarling’s point about chimps representing presidents with comment 459. Obama is indeed (God help US) leader of the free world, which WAY supercedes any petty crap about him being black. So, he should expect to be catching hell from every direction, and not all of it any kind of nice. That’s part of the job description.

    Even if you insist on taking it that Obama was the chimp, Bush had a LOT worse representations. How many thousand times was he compared to Hitler? Wouldn’t that be a lot more of something to be seen as encouraging violence against the POTUS than being likened to a chimp?

    I could maybe understand a LITTLE BIT of some black folk not especially appreciating the Delonas cartoon. That’s maybe a bit paranoid, but understandable. But the likes of Sharpton staging protest rallies and trying to mau-mau NYC to stop doing business with the paper and such is just pure demagoguery. The NAACP is joining in, promising national this and that if people aren’t fired. Again, they all need to drink a big frosty mug of shut-the-hell-up with the demagoguery.

    And I fail yet to see what is at all illegitimate about Republicans trying to purge voting rolls of bogus and illegitimate registrations – even if they’re concentrating their efforts on neighborhoods that favor the opposition party. Also, besides parisan point, likely the big majority of bogus registrations are in those Democrat dominated neighborhoods – thanks in significant part to the efforts of such as the evil ACORN.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Even if you insist on taking it that Obama was the chimp, Bush had a LOT worse representations. How many thousand times was he compared to Hitler?

    Early days yet, Al. Bush was president for 96 times as long as Obama has been so far. That’s a lot of time to get inventively hateful.

    Also, a lot of the ‘BusHitler’ stuff was in allusion to the Bush dynasty’s links with the Nazis back in the ’30s.

  • Hope and Change?

    Dr,

    ….oh…I see…now that you put it that way…I guess calling Bush a Nazi wasnt as bad as NOT CALLING King Barry a Chimp!

    The left wing loons and other unethical government workers cannot be rational when discussing race…maybe Holder was right! Maybe guys like Dr Dreadful, Cobra and Rev. Al are a bunch of cowards when it comes to discussing race!

  • Cindy

    Also Bush is a criminal. That doesn’t help his cause any.

  • Hope and Change?

    Sorry cindy I left you out…COWARD!!!

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra, I want to give you some praise. You kinda started out, if I may be frank, like a stereotypical hostile Angry Black Man – which does not bring out my own better and more civil tone.

    But in fairness, you have become distinctly more reasonable over the course of several days on this thread. Not that I am agreeing with a lot of what you’re saying, but you’ve actually been paying attention to what others are saying and responding in something like a reasonable manner of civil discourse. And again, any of us might be seen to be occassionally losing our cool or better judgment here.

    Anyway, thank you for your real efforts at honest dialogue here.

  • Hope and Change?

    Sorry Al but your post sounded somehat familiar in tone….hmmmm..now who does it sound like…um….er….duh….

    Oh Yea! Now I remember Joe Biden!!

    “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” Biden said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”

    “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American Blogger who is articulate and bright and clean and who Cindy fantasizes about being nice-looking guy,”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Doc,

    There’s a crucial difference here, though, between comparing Bush to a monkey as opposed to doing the same with Obama.

    For some reason, no one wants to touch it with a ten foot pole, hoping it’ll go away.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Bush was compared to Hitler over and over again, and it had nothing to do with his families alleged ties to Nazi Germany.

    This is what the Left does. It called Reagan a fascist killer Hitler, it calls Palin a Nazi for not killing her retarded child (and calls her daughter a slut for having a baby out of wedlock), it calls anyone who crosses it, a Nazi. Its a meaningless term.

    Just last week, the story came out where a student at community college was called a fascist Nazi by his Liberal, atheist professor because he spoke in favor of traditional marriage, ya know, the kind God invented.

    Standard tactics. The Left is deathly afraid of actually discussing the issues, and will brook no disagreement and instead jumps right into the whole censorship game.

  • Cindy

    Dave,

    H&C, among others, is making your defense of the right look pretty foolish.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m aware of the difference, Roger, and I addressed it a few days ago at comment #88 on this thread.

  • Cindy

    True, Bush shouldn’t be compared to Hitler. He should be called what he is–a terrorist.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I know YOU do!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Todd,

    And the Right calls anything it doesn’t agree with ‘looney left talk’, or ‘helping the terrorists’, or ‘socialism’, or ‘communism’…

    …Or is that just a small lunatic faction of the Right?

    Oh yes…

  • Hope and Change?

    Todd…the cowards were outed this past election cycle. No one would challenge or question Barry about any minor or major issues deemed to “sensitive” (Like why he went to a racists church every sunday, was mentored by a racist minister…then he gets amnesia) issues because they were afraid of being called a racists!

    Imagine if all of these folks…minorities would just stop acting like innocent victims and take personal responsibility…ohhhhh….umm….er…I forgot…thats toooo hard!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    My point is that people are almost unmatched in their inventiveness when it comes to thinking up nasty things to say, and if you give it the full four or eight years you’ll have a quite delightful anthology of Obama insults that will look great on the bookshelf next to the BusHitler Compendium.

    In fact, you can’t have failed to notice that one of our regular commenters has the book halfway finished already.

  • Hope and Change?

    Dr…you left off the favorite and lowest of the lows whem attacking the left….calling them….

    “Lazy…slovenly…unethical (posting on the tax payers expense) HUD workers

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Hiter comparisons are less damaging (and quite common in the heat of political debates and rhetoric) than those which smack of genetic slurs/insinuations.

    The first category might be termed “political”; the second transcends all such modes of thought.

  • Irene Wagner

    Of Monkeys and Men: Here’s the double standard again, though. When Darwin explicitly says this: “Differences of this kind between the highest men of the highest races and the lowest savages, are connected by the finest gradations.”-Darwin, Descent of Man, Ch. 3 folks are bending backwards to make excuses for him, or look the other way.

    Lets assume for the sake of argument that the Post cartoonist had absolutely meant for the monkey to represent Obama.

    Why does the cartoon in question cause pickets, and Darwin still gets his birthday (Feb. 12 during Black History Month, no less) celebrated?

    ****
    (Cindy (apparently AB doesn’t care about his inbox being stuffed with comment notifications) – I’m not going to trample all over your enthusiasm about the changes anarchism might bring. I understand that kind of enthusiasm. I was saying (and Jordan misunderstood me, and that’s my fault, I’m sure) if you get discouraged at any point in the future that your dreams of what society should look like aren’t coming to pass, take what’s best about that vision and live that way. Good for you for wanting to rescue all the disadvantaged workers of the world. But if the movement fizzles out (or transmogrifies into a Reign of Terror) and you can’t change the world all by yourself…look up the “Helped THAT Starfish” story.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Irene,

    Darwin was a product of his time. I for one am not going to make excuses for that statement, for the simple reason that it is irrelevant to how I, as a 21st century person, view Darwin.

    It does appear, though, that Mr Delonas is also a product of Darwin’s time.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And, your ‘below the fold':

    Good advice, and not just to Cindy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I don’t think it makes one iota of a difference what Mr. Delonas meant or hadn’t meant to represent by his cartoon. My position is – it’s beyond the bounds of propriety. And I don’t mean by that the rather banal and overused phrase of political correctness. It should offend the sense of what a human is and the aspirations of humanity.

    Even for a cartoon.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Darwin was a very great and brilliant scientist who changed the course of history, quite literally.

    What has Delonas, a very crummy cartoonist, done for the world except maybe make it a little uglier?

  • Cindy

    Irene,

    Thank you for that wonderful thought. I have given up in the past. So, I’ll try not to be alone this time.

    And I’ll listen carefully and regularly to this man.

    “Vision without action is merely a dream. Action without vision just passes the time. Vision with action can change the world.” – Joel Barker, The Star Thrower Story

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    It’s just the basic difference between knowing the walk and walking the walk.

    “The Matrix,” among other things. Still, the hardest thing for humans to implement.

  • Clavos

    …if you give it the full four or eight years you’ll have a quite delightful anthology of Obama insults that will look great on the bookshelf…

    Ah. Something to look forward to…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Not my kind of reading.

  • Clavos

    Of course not.

  • Hope and Change?

    Jimmy Carter is feeling and looking pretty smart and proud right now! Based on King Barry’s short track record Americans and history may forget that he was the worst president ever…looks like he will have to settle for second worst president ever behind….King Barry of Kenya!

  • Cindy

    People who see racism everywhere are racists….

    Interesting. I wonder what people who see “loons” everywhere are.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Good for Jimmy, I guess. It’s always good to be a runner-up.

  • Hope and Change?

    A little boy asked his mother, “Mummy, am I descended from a monkey?”

    The mother replied, “I don’t know, son. I never met your father’s folks

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    White trash, then – wouldn’t you say so, H&C?

  • Hope and Change?

    No not at all…I dont like to call people names…that dont deserve it..

    I am just amazed at the level of phony indignation the left has over a silly cartoon of a f__kin chimp!

    The liberal whites are feeling or pretending to feel guilty and the blacks are being phony and are both sounding like the crazed Muslims when Jyllands-Posten printed a cartoon of Mohammed…..

  • Irene Wagner

    :*) Watched it, Cindy.

    Dr. D. – Yes, and that’s because you’re too smart and considerate to defend a statement like that. And just because you believe in most of what Darwin says, you don’t have to be held accountable for all of what he said. I would never want to call you a racist.

    Or you handyguy–even though you thought enough of Delanos to remember his name, whereas I couldn’t, and referred to him as “the cartoonist.” :JUST KIDDING!!!

    If someone sees Baronius tell him happy Lent for me. * Dressed in Full Victorian costume, throws tacky plastic Mardi Gras necklaces to everyone from a car driving into the distance *

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Hope and Change- You’re not playing very nice comparing me to JOE FRICKIN’ BIDEN, are you? What’s next, comparing me to Ted Kennedy? You know what, next time we all gather round the campfire to hold hands and sing Kum Bi Yah, YOU go into “time out.”

    Cindy aks, “I wonder what people who see “loons” everywhere are.” Perhaps they are the rare sane folk on the BC.

    Then there’s the whole business of how it is absolutely, unbelievably, worst possible thing you could do to, oh God, make a dumb racial insult about a monkey. I mean, that’s not nice, but I know I get called worse things on a regular basis.

    And again, being PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA pretty well overrides other considerations. What’s the most significant thing about ol’ Barry Obama – that he’s black or that he’s president? There’s like 30 million black dudes in America and 100 million whiteys, but ONE president.

    And I’d take the Hitler business as, in fact, much worse than a passing racial insult (again, just pretending for sake of argument that the Delonas cartoon was making the president out to be a monkey). If you simply throw a passing racial epitaph at him, that’s just being a jerk.

    But if you again and again and again with full sincerity advance the idea that the president is like Hitler, that’s got a lot worse implications. If I thought that the president really was like Hitler, I would feel not just license but obliged as a patriot to kill him if I could. Wouldn’t you have killed HITLER?

    The fact that the left talks that trash all the time does not make it innocuous.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    [shakes fist at retreating car, attempts to clean pancake batter out of hair]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Darwin’s theory doesn’t really apply to this farce of a discussion. And Irene Wagner, of all people, ought to have known better.

    Sorry, Irene. You’re entirely wrong on that score.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Especially in light of the following:

    “that’s because you’re too smart and considerate to defend a statement like that. And just because you believe in most of what Darwin says, you don’t have to be held accountable for all of what he said.”

    You do seem to be playing here both ends against the middle. The question is why?

  • HeddaCabbage

    Roger Nowosielski, you apparently are unfamiliar with Mrs. Wagner’s Lenten habits. Being a Protestant, during Lent she gives up things she doesn’t like very much anyway. This year’s Lenten project is refraining from making new enemies on BC. Do not feel hurt if she does not respond to your comments for awhile: she is in reflective seclusion for the next couple of months.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger writes:

    “Cobra, I want to give you some praise. You kinda started out, if I may be frank, like a stereotypical hostile Angry Black Man – which does not bring out my own better and more civil tone.”

    I appreciate that, Al. Truth be told, I didn’t say I was Black until Comment #216, mostly as a response to your statements in Comment #208. But that’s neither here or there.

    Al Barger writes:

    “And I fail yet to see what is at all illegitimate about Republicans trying to purge voting rolls of bogus and illegitimate registrations – even if they’re concentrating their efforts on neighborhoods that favor the opposition party.

    Well, first thing…it’s illegal to do what the Republicans did in all these cases. I’ve posted enough links and case law already on this thread.

    But if you want to understand what you’re saying in reality, is “Cobra, you’re black, and you probably vote for Democrats, so it’s OK for Republicans to use an illegal direct mail campaign to strip you of your constitutional right to vote.”

    Now, that isn’t what you said–but it’s what the Republicans were doing. Do you see how I might have a problem with that?

    But you and Todd have touched on something that I think is worth discussing as well. Since you both favor to one degree or another, “voluntary self-segregation”, the same concept the Eric Holder describes, it should come as no surprise to you both that if you have separate communities, you’re going to get outspoken people from those communities that have opposite viewpoints. I could ask you who elected Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh to be ‘white leaders”?

    I don’t always agree with Al Sharpton. I’ve described him on this blog before as something akin to a pro wrestler; The Ric Flair of cable news. Nobody can work an angle or a 10 second soundbite like Al.

    But there are two things that you have to realize…In a segregated society, where the media, liberal or conservative, is controlled by the Whites (even BET..look it up) how do the issues concerning the minorities, especially the urban underclass get attention?

    Reverend Al fills a two-fer for this dilemna;

    A) He’s a talented speaker who can draw a national spotlight on discrimination or civil rights issues because he’s on the speed dial of every cable television producer in the business.

    B) White conservatives hate him, and just like a good villain in pro wrestling, he’s over the top, and guarantees an entertaining fight with good ratings.

    So when Todd Yarling writes…

    “As an aside, I have yet to meet a regular Joe black person who considers Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson a leader, or at least, who admits to this.”

    …that’s probably because you’re down with that “voluntary self-segregation” thing. I believe if you spent more time actually talking to a larger number of African-Americans, you’ll find out that we’re not monolithic, but you’ll begin to hear a recurring theme…

    If they’re completely open and honest with you.

    If they’re like me, which many are, they’ll have a stories to tell you about “driving while black”, and being pulled over for no good reason.

    If they’re like me, you’ll probably hear stories about having apartments available for rent on the phone, but “already rented out” when they show up in person.

    You’ll hear about being charged higher rates for loans despite good credit ratings. You’ll hear about doctors not giving them the same health care as Whites. You’ll hear about being last hired and first fired, despite the nonsense about Affirmative Action giving us “everything.” You’ll actually hear about missing Black women and children that the so called “liberal-media” can’t seem to fit into their story line-up.

    The problem is…you won’t hear that from people face to face if you’re segregated from them, and you won’t believe it coming from a stranger writing about it in a blog post.

    Say what you want about Sharpton and Jackson. Say what you want about their motivations. They aren’t segregated from Black people, and they certainly don’t show them the open hostility and contempt that many White media figures on talk radio or Fox News harbors for minorities. They came up through the Church, which was the only social vehicle for Blacks through slavery and Jim Crow, and that gave them a viable platform.

    Now, you might claim that Black conservatives would be a “better choice”, but I disagree. Most of the “Professional” Black Conservatives I’ve seen come around are simply parroting whatever the White conservative establishment deems to be the talking points of the day. They are usually funded by Newscorp, the Olin Group, or some other hard right think-tank to harshly criticize other Blacks, drawing fire away from their employers. Most of the time I see them, they’re either hawking books or hitting the lucrative lecture circuit. They like the status quo just fine.

    In other words, if the police do something illegal to me, I certainly wouldn’t call a “professional black conservative”. They’d say I deserved what I got before I stopped bleeding.

    In the age of President Obama, Gov. Deval Patrick, Rep. Artur Davis, May. Corey Booker and others, we now see a class of highly educated African-American politicians NOT from the civil rights/Black church dynamic. As we learned with Obama, none of them are to be underestimated. None of them are demogogues.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Nicely done, Cobra

  • Hope and Change?

    Cobra..heres a hint..

    Just beacause you keep saying the same thing over and over again…doesnt…er….um…you know…make it true!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Hedda Cabbage,

    Ms Wagner may rest assured that there’d be no hard feelings whatsoever, and no new animosity created. No response is sometimes a better strategy than a response, and I find myself availing myself of the latter sometimes more often than I’d care to. But I do not see the point of perpetuating the climate of prejudice and ignorance – even if the topic at hand is a most complex one and multi-layered. So given those choices, silence is golden, however true it may be that the only purpose of these exercises may (in the ultimate analysis) be no other than honing one’s writing skills.

    Have a nice retreat,

    Roger

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Cobra, Hannity and Limbaugh are not White Leaders, they are conservative talk show hosts. You know there are white, black, latino, and azn conservatives, right?

    Personally, I don’t think they are very conservative, but thats another thread.

    And Cobra, getting pulled over by the cops for being in the wrong neighborhood is again, some thing that happens to, again, all sorts of different people. It has happened to me before.

    I don’t know what to make of your comments about if I talked to black people and quit ‘self segregating’ I would hear a litany of racist abuses.

    Do YOU ever hang out with black people? Cause when I hang out with black people, I NEVER hear that stuff. IF anything, I hear about how crazy the people in the ghetto are!

    Maybe we run with a different crowd,I dunno.

    And you call agreeing with conservative principles ‘parroting’? As if no black person could have any other opinion on matters except for an officially Liberal approved one?

    I am personally not a conservative, but I have listened to a lot of talk radio, and I don’t hear ANY denigrating of black people on shows like Hannity and Limbaugh. Either you are hearing things no one is saying, or you are have never listened to them and are just repeating what others have told you.
    l

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    If you listen to Limbaugh, from time to time when he’s on vacation you may very well hear a black conservative guest host. Neal Boortz also has Herman Cain on permanent guest host rotation. Cain has his own show as well. Perhaps Cobra could learn something from listening to Cain, who grew up as a middle-class southern black, became a multi-millionaire and one of the leading black CEOs in the nation through very hard work and has a very common-sense political perspective. You can find a feed of his show on his website.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    Well, first thing…it’s illegal to do what the Republicans did in all these cases. I’ve posted enough links and case law already on this thread.

    Caging lists are only illegal in a few states and not the ones Republicans have used them in. Something equivalent to make sure that voters are properly registered ought to be standard practice in all states as a matter of law.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    White conservatives hate him[Sharpton]…

    I don’t know about that; he’s O’Reilly’s token.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Clavos,

    O’Reilly cares about ratings more than anything else.

    Dave,

    Like I said, you need to read the case law on vote caging. Don’t take my word for it.

    Todd Yarling,

    When I hear Republican Congressman groveling on the air to Rush Limbaugh, begging forgiveness for daring to criticize him, “he’s a leader”. When talk show hosts lead political rallies, and start movements like “Stop Hillary Express” and “Operation Chaos”, trying to convince Republican voters to vote in Democratic primaries, “he’s a leader.”

    Second, I’m a citizen of this Country. There is no “wrong neighborhood” for me.

    Third, if you “hang out with Black people and never hear this stuff”, then Eric Holder is right about our conversations on race.

    Fourth, what is your definition of “conservative prinicples?” If you’ve been to an average Black church on Sunday, you’ll hear plenty of principles that sound “conservative.” Usually they have nothing to do with White Conservative Politicians define as “conservative principles.”

    Fifth, I could pull quote Limbaugh and Hannity on race, and the people they invite on the air with them, but would you believe it with your own eyes?

    Honestly?

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    Cobra,

    Dave, Like I said, you need to read the case law on vote caging. Don’t take my word for it.

    Dave is well aware of the voter caging. Dave’s motto is: “Reinventing reality for a more Libertarian world.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    What I want to know, Cobra, have we made some progress on the race issue? What’s being discussed right now by some of the participants is, in my opinion, a kind of diversion.

    What do you think?

  • Clavos

    O’Reilly cares about ratings more than anything else.

    Well, duh, Cobra, that’s all any talking head cares about — that’s the business they’re in. My point was, if white conservatives hated Sharpton that much, O’Reilly wouldn’t have him on — he’d hurt his ratings.

    I find Sharpton fairly moderate and more than a little amusing; he has a good sense of humor.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    Same here. He plays his role well.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    RE: Cobra comment 504: Alright, several points to respond to there. For starters, you didn’t identify yourself as black until well into the conversation. Nor did it occur to me to think you were. Blackness wasn’t particularly the point. You could have been just a crazed netroots Daily Kos white dude carrying on. The point here would be about the same.

    “”Cobra, you’re black, and you probably vote for Democrats, so it’s OK for Republicans to use an illegal direct mail campaign to strip you of your constitutional right to vote.”

    Obviously I’m not thinking anything like that, as you say. Nor were Republicans from anything I’ve seen. Purging voter rolls of people not qualified to vote, or bogus registrations that are just inviting monkey business does not constitute trying to stop black folk from voting. Register and vote like anyone else. Cleaning up voter rolls is not some evil discrimination.

    Then there’s that I “favor voluntary segregation.” Again, that’s making it sound like I believe in Jim Crow lite, which is certainly not true. It’s not that I favor segregation at all, but that I favor people’s rights to live as they will. The alternative would be what, forced integration down to your personal living arrangements? Should we be FORCING, say, old Chinese dudes to live in neighborhoods full of young blacks and Mexicans and white kids blaring their hip-hop all night when they’re trying to sleep? Whatever works for you, I say. I don’t think you have any business screwing with people like that for your own little sociologically preferred ends.

    Plus, there’s only so much segregation you’re going to get or that very many people in America would want. Unless you plan on moving to a cabin in a remote corner of Idaho, you’ll be seeing other people in all kinds of contexts – at work, the mall, just walking around downtown. But maybe you’d just like a little comfort zone in a sleepy little bedroom community to go home to at night.

    Obviously, I’m in favor of letting a thousand flowers bloom, and I’m glad to see hundreds of cable channels and thousands of talk radio shows. I don’t hang out at Blogcritics because I want to find people who all agree with me. Don’t learn anything that way. If I wanted homogenous community, I could find some little libertarian echo chamber.

    Then there’s your next bit about separate communities breeding strong and opposing opinions. What, like I would pressure people to live in this or that personal arrangements so as to get people to have opinions more palatable to me? That kind of social engineering is some left wing thing, not anything I would accept let alone condone.

    And no, Rush Limbaugh is not a “white leader.” The audience for his right wing views probably is primarily white – though I certainly don’t care enough to research it. But he’s not making arguments from a “white” point of view, designed for a “white” audience. He’s not trying to raise whitey up to stand up to the black man or such nonsense. David Duke would be a “white leader,” except that he fortunately has no significant following.

    You can tell me stories about driving while black. But then, I could tell you a couple of stories about being screwed with for driving while poor when I had an old beater while living in Carmel, an Indianapolis suburb. Or being screwed with just for walking while looking like a long haired hippie freak as a young dude.

    But hey, life ain’t fair. Look around the world – and look at the mother continent of Africa. If getting minorly hassled by a cop from time to time is your worst oppression, you’re a lucky person.

    You could also get into discussions of how much of this stuff like “driving while black” is real vs how you choose to take things, or why maybe some cops in some neighborhoods might have some bad attitudes about some ethnic groups. I might just ever so gently suggest that some bad cop attitudes might not be just 100% without reason.

    Al Sharpton in particular is an assmunch who deserves nothing but contempt and ridicule – though I agree that he is an effective showman and makes a good wrestling villain. But he’s not really helping black people, and certainly does not give a good goddam about the actual welfare of his community or actually being any kind of man of God.

    If he did, he wouldn’t be demagoguing over brought-on BS like Delonas or Don Imus. He’d be, perhaps, acting like a minister, offering spiritual counsel to his people to help them get their own personal worlds in better order. That would be stuff like, maybe, reading programs and guiding individual parishioners away from drugs and general self-destructive behavior – which are at this point about 100x more destructive of the black community than anything whitey’s doing.

    Rather, his professional rabble rousing is actively destructive not just to race relations, but much more significantly to whoever follows him. He actively encourages blaming everyone else for your problems and looking really everywhere else but taking care of yourself and doing right by yourself and your own people.

    Still though, in a spirit of fairness, I voted for him for president. You can’t say I don’t reach across the aisle.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Cobra, I never said Limbaugh and Hannity are not leaders. I said, they are not WHITE leaders.

    Obviously, if you have 27 Million weekly listeners, you are going to have some influence.

    Cobra, the reason I don’t hear about racism from my black friends is because its not a huge part of their lives.

    Living and working with people for years, if it was that big a deal, I would have heard about it.

    But daily,I heard about violence in the neighborhood and how it affected them personally.

    I am glad that black Christians tend to be socially conservative.

    I am grateful for their support in getting Prop 8 passed. I wish they had voted with abortion and protection of the family in mind in the presidential election, too.

    Unfortunately, blacks overwhelmingly came out to support the most radical pro abortion presidential candidate we have ever seen.

    The man who stood up in the Illinois State Senate and actually spoke out in favor of letting babies which survived abortions be left to starve to death, or die of exposure, without medical care.

    I find black support of Obama understandable, but shocking none the less, seeing as abortion from its roots in this nation was designed to weed out blacks from the general population, evidenced by the fact that some 80% of Planned Parenthoods death mills are located in poor black neighborhoods.

    You wanna find an enemy of blacks, there ya go.

    And blacks put him in power, so quit blaming me for stuff that happened before I was born, when today, in 2009, blacks are voting for the murder of their own children.

  • Cindy

    You can tell me stories about driving while black. But then, I could tell you a couple of stories about being screwed with for driving while poor when I had an old beater while living in Carmel, an Indianapolis suburb. Or being screwed with just for walking while looking like a long haired hippie freak as a young dude.

    A good point of shared experience Al. All marginalized groups get the same treatment. But, it’s not limited to driving. So, it’s not a matter of it being, “If getting minorly hassled by a cop from time to time is your worst oppression, you’re a lucky person.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I don’t understand why the abortion question is being brought into this argument. Given that poverty is a rather common phenomenon among the inner city blacks and a breeding ground for crime – as some here would argue – what purpose would it serve to those concerned with this “social problem” to be opposed to abortion on any other than religious ground.

    Oh, I see now. It’s the liberals who are intent on keeping the black population down. That makes sense – identifying an enemy.

  • http://toddyarling.tumblr.com/ Todd Yarling

    Theres another one for ya, Cobra.

    A white liberal who supports abortion cause it kills alot of poor black babies and helps to keep the crime rate down.

    And you people wanna lecture me about racism.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    “A white liberal who supports abortion CAUSE it kills alot of poor black babies and helps to keep the crime rate down.”

    The cause and effect here is the invention of the commentator.

  • Baronius

    Thank God I’m egotistical enough to randomly search threads for my name. Irene, the phrase “happy Lent” seems oxymoronic but I get your meaning. There is joy to be found in solemnity. Happy Lent to you as well.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I wonder why there is no answer forthcoming about the abortion issue. Jump in, anyone?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ Roger Nowosielski

    I happen to think that Phillip Winn’s original assessment of the situation – see comment #1 – (and what happened subsequently on this thread)is the most accurate and indeed, the most prophetic one.

    Everyone’s been trying to walk a fine line – some more successfully than others – without saying what they really mean. And if that’s not cowardice, than I don’t know what is.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Obama’s ‘radical’ [not!] position on abortion is not likely to have a major effect on domestic policy. In case you haven’t noticed, he has a few other concerns on his plate.

    He will reverse [in fact, has already] a few Bush executive orders that tied the hands of overseas charities. Bush had in several cases reversed Clinton policies.

    So if we are back to the Clinton policy on abortion [“It should be safe, legal and rare”], I doubt our pro-life friends have to fear radical change. They will have to get used to the status quo of Roe v Wade, but 20 combined years of Reagan, Bush I and Bush II didn’t change that either.

    By the way, an excellent movie for the strong-hearted and strong-stomached: a documentary on the abortion issue called Lake of Fire. I reviewed it on this very site.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Roger, re: people here not saying what they really mean – Speak for yourself. I’m saying just exactly what I mean. Knowing from long experience how my words will be twisted and stuck up in me, I’m being careful with my choice of words. But that’s good, particularly when you’re talking about sensitive issues. And I can guarantee you that Brother Yarling is giving it to you straight, no chaser.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Another hee-haw-larious and of course not racist cartoon has surfaced.

    The mayor of a tiny Republican hamlet in Southern California’s Orange County — just across the 605 from Long Beach — thought it was super funny to send around a picture of the White House surrounded by a watermelon garden, because gosh, the watermelon is simply a very funny thing, in almost any setting. Watermelons! The very word is fun, and certainly not racist. There was also a caption on the funny picture, of watermelons surrounding the White House: “No Easter Egg Hunt this year.”

    Mayor Grose confirmed to the AP that he sent the e-mail and said he didn’t mean to offend. He said he was unaware of the racial stereotype that black people like watermelons.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    “He said he was unaware of the racial stereotype that black people like watermelons.”

    Um. Yeah. Sure.

    So in that case, what exactly did he think the joke was meant to be?

  • Clavos

    That, when the economy finishes collapsing after the “stimulus” goes belly-up, even the prez will have to resort to farming to make a living?

  • Doug Hunter

    In order to avoid accidentally stumbling upon an offensive stereotype you must first learn what constitutes one. I feel it’s my job to teach people!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Unlike the chimp cartoon, no ambiguity about the racial comment [and, as Wonkette points out, the suggestion that Obama is nudging Christianity out of the White House in time for Easter].

    But discussing this one is actually more funny than upsetting. Hard to say why. Because there’s no blood in the picture? Because the mayor is such a clueless halfwit?

  • Clavos

    …Obama is nudging Christianity out of the White House in time for Easter…

    He’d have a good start on winning me over if he did.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Roger writes:

    “What I want to know, Cobra, have we made some progress on the race issue? What’s being discussed right now by some of the participants is, in my opinion, a kind of diversion.

    What do you think?”

    I’d be wrong to say we haven’t made progress on many of the issues surrounding race in this country. But I’d make three observations:

    1) Like I said before, I believe America is a journey. A work in progress. We can ALWAYS do better at inummerable things.

    2) “We” isn’t all inclusive. There are people in all groups that are either hostile to racial progress or indifferent.

    3) Most of the issues again boil down to segregation.

    America is a rare example in the Western Hemisphere of a nation exposed to centuries of race-based slavery, but maintained at least the illusion of segregation, primarily through Jim Crow and anti-miscegenation laws. There is racial discrimination all over the world, mind you. Don’t get me wrong. But I think America has created a hot, unique, self-inflicted mess when it comes to race.

    I think that basic premise–considering one group of people different enough from another to the point of writing laws preventing their mixing, or voluntarily achieving the same result absent law–is the at the heart of all the problems. Many here have expressed the desire to keep things separate for fear of “losing” something culturally. Sure, one can say some “unique” pop culture came out of segregation, especially in music and the arts, but remember they didn’t call it the Blues out of “happiness and prosperity”.

    IMHO, those people want to have it both ways, and the segregated group that doesn’t have the power almost always loses out. I agree that there’s freedom of association, and all sorts of religious or ethnic dogmas compell folks to “not be equally yoked”, but I would challenge those who favor self-segregation to dig deeper, and tell us what influenced their core belief system to feel that way.

    Roger, like Eric Holder said, far too many of us are cowards when it comes to discussing this baseline issue. We dodge the issue by getting into tit-for-tat arguments about statistics, or annecdotes.
    “Diversions” as you call it.

    I’m often guilty of this myself. Like discussions on religion or politics, race gets taken personally. We tend to react, get defensive, and seek to “score points” or “win the debate” instead of trying to understand where the other point of view is coming from.

    Once something gets taken personally, the ability to reason or show empathy gets hamstringed. We seem to reflexively, and automatically greet anybody from a different group citing negative statistics, annecdotes or statements like a hostile witness for the prosecution. That doesn’t advance an issue this sensitive.

    Again, don’t get me wrong. If a person constantly cites negative statistics, annecdotes or statements about an ethnic or racial group, and that’s all he or she has to offer, it’s not out of line to assume that person might have a problem. Racism and bigotry, unfortunately isn’t hard to find, and you’re never going to change that person’s mind.

    Mind you, sometimes things fly out of people’s mouths, or pop up in a blog thread that’s so flat-earth off the wall false, it has to be soundly refuted, so that the unwashed eyes of the blogosphere don’t accept it as fact, or the last word on an issue.

    The steps I’m trying to take towards healing are continuing what I’ve learned growing up in predominantly White settings, which is to slow down my rush to judgement. Most people won’t actually come out and speak their minds about race in person (Holder again), but when they do, I will try to take pains not to conflate ignorance and naivety with bigotry or racism. Even in 2009, I’ve often found I’m the first Black person many Whites have had an in-depth conversation with. If I jumped on them about something they just weren’t aware of, or never encountered I might be the last Black person they ever approach like that.

    That’s what segregation does.

    Yeah I know. I was long winded, but it would be interesting to hear from others on this board what they’re trying to do in real life to advance the race issue to a better place.

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cobra,

    for me to indict Al or Ruvy for their HONEST answers doesn’t advance the conversation.

    That is what makes you different from the PC types on this site who have tried their damnedest to stifle disagreement here. Europeans and Indians (from South Asia) can be far worse.

    But let’s look at what Brother Al has to say:

    “Then there’s that I “favor voluntary segregation.” Again, that’s making it sound like I believe in Jim Crow lite, which is certainly not true. It’s not that I favor segregation at all, but that I favor people’s rights to live as they will. The alternative would be what, forced integration down to your personal living arrangements?”

    He’s looking at things from an American perspective, and even he does not desire to see forced segragation. When I went to high school, during lunch in the cafeteria, the black kids all sat at one or two tables that they chose. There was no sign anywhere saying “blacks not wanted”. Indeed, the integration at Midwood High School in the late 1960’s was as artificial and as forced as the segregation then being challenged in the south.

    I do not look at things from an American perspective though. I look at them from a Jewish perspective, from the point of view of one living in the Middle East, in a Jewish country.

    Self-segregation was a survival mechanism for Jews living in exile, on that slowed the intermarriage rate in exile and helped keep both Judean ideas and practices alive in a very hostile world. When Jews ran away from this self-imposed segregation, they did so because the rich among them were oppressing them and exploiting them, and the rabbis tended to side with the rich exploiter rather than the poor exploited.

    In the Jewish villages of Poland and Russia, Jews had some measure of shelter from the non-Jews, but no protection from those Jews that would do them harm and injustice.

    So they fled.

    The fled the religion, they fled to Krakow, they fled to Warsaw, they fled to New York. Black-Jewish alliances in North America stemmed from this common heritage of fleeing discrimination.

    In Israel, we have the remnants of the “millet” system of the Ottoman Empire that segregated people by nationality and religion. So, segregation here is the way things are done, and does not necessarily mean that the segregees are a minority being stuck into some slum against their will. The “oppressors” who designed this system, the Turks, are gone. No reason for integration has arisen, and when there has been integration in Israel, communal violence and tension has been the usual result. If you want to see what communal violence really can mean, Google up “sikh – hindu violence” and read the articles that pop up….

    So, segregation, self-segregation, is preferable as a method of keeping the peace in a land that can easily explode into civil war, a land already fighting an Arab rebellion within her borders and fighting Arabs (not to mention sympathetic Europeans and Americans) bent on destroying the Jewish State from without.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Ruvy writes:

    “So, segregation, self-segregation, is preferable as a method of keeping the peace in a land that can easily explode into civil war, a land already fighting an Arab rebellion within her borders and fighting Arabs (not to mention sympathetic Europeans and Americans) bent on destroying the Jewish State from without.”

    Which is exactly the point I’m trying to make. DNA testing has demonstrated that Semitic people have mixed bloodlines. You even point out in your post that there is further segregation among the rich and poor of the same ethnicity and faith. These differences are social constructs of religion and politics. Whether those constructs were created last week, or 5000 years ago, it’s still all in the mind, Ruvy.

    My point about self-segregation in America is that most of the time, it isn’t honest.

    Many self-segregating minority sects based on religion or ethnicity in America are compelled by their religions to be collectivist in nature, and exclusively support the prosperity of the said group. Money is encouraged to flow first through the hands of the segregated group, before that money ever gets out to the greater society. Ethnic enclaves concentrate localized political power, and because of the way America dealt with voting rights, White enclaves have decades, if not centuries of voting block power, lobbying and influence, and recent immigrants enjoy the freedom of a post-civil rights atmosphere earned on the backs of others.

    Compare that to the outright demonization that occurs whenever African-Americans speak of collectivism, ethnic lobbying, voting block power and insular monetary pooling.

    That’s why there needs to be an honest, courageous discussion about what we really believe America should be, because nature’s gonna force us to deal with anyway. It’s just a matter of time.

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cobra,

    It’s all ” all in the mind”. That’s how we all perceive the world. But here is the real difference between black-white relations in Israel and America, especially as it applies to mixed race marriages.

    In America, blacks were slaves, and the vast vast majority of whites were not. So a black man who could sleep with a white woman was “marrying up” so to speak (this was the bottom line of southern white resentments of blacks, no matter how much bullshit they give you about any other subject). But this had consequences. Black women tended to feel humiliated associating with white men, who were legally exempt rapists in the days of slavery and segregation, and they resented being treated as garbage by black men who lusted after white women to “improve” their status in life.

    In the meantime, white women who were insecure, often associated with black men (there was a whole culture of blacks seducing insecure white teenage girls I saw at work in the malls in St. Paul and Minneapolis – but this was designed to get them to be whores, not lovers). Those who were not lured into a life of prostitution had to deal with black women who resented them for stealing “their” men.

    Your new president is an African-American in the most literal sense of the word, but he is the product of a mixed marriage where the white woman married the black man.

    All this shitty cultural baggage from slavery just does not exist over here!

    If a white Jewish guy finds a black Jewish girl attractive, then they hook up. Similarly for a black guy finding a white girl attractive. Maybe some white rabbis are racists, and maybe some secular Tel Aviv types have picked up on some of the racial shit America exports, but for the most part, the kind of attitudes common to American racism just do not exist here at all. And it’s a pleasure to get away from the angry and resentful millions of blacks whose ancestors were slaves in the States!

    In short, your solution of mixed marriages will work here very successfully. The IDF is the great cultural integrator here, and it will be Ethiopian girls and guys marrying white girls and guys who meet each other in the Army will make it all happen. In three generations there will be no racism here at all. It will take more time to work out in America – after how many generations?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Stephen Colbert [whose show was on break last week], finally got around to covering the Holder speech [along with Jindal’s and Obama’s] last night. Titled “Ablacknophobia,” the segment included the participation of three very real, very scary looking tarantulas.

    A small masterpiece of political satire.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Ruvy writes:

    “So a black man who could sleep with a white woman was “marrying up” so to speak (this was the bottom line of southern white resentments of blacks, no matter how much bullshit they give you about any other subject). But this had consequences.”

    It would probably help to throw some dates in that sentence. Not that I totally disagree, (because you’re getting as close to the REAL reason for voluntary self-segregation as anybody else on this blog thread,) but for most of this nation’s history, black men having sex with white women was a felony. In many states, up untill 1969 or so, a black guy could get himself lynched for it.

    Now, what I’ve observed as an African-American, growing up in New Jersey, but having relatives down South isn’t so much that a Black man is viewed to have “married up”, for having a White girlfriend or wife, but that the White woman viewed to have “married down.” Read back your own description of events in Minnesota:

    “In the meantime, white women who were insecure, often associated with black men (there was a whole culture of blacks seducing insecure white teenage girls I saw at work in the malls in St. Paul and Minneapolis – but this was designed to get them to be whores, not lovers). Those who were not lured into a life of prostitution had to deal with black women who resented them for stealing “their” men.”

    Now, here are the relevant statistics:

    “Among married black men in Minnesota, 44 percent have wives who are not black; among married black women in the state, 14 percent have husbands who are not black. Nationally, the figures are 7 percent for men and 3 percent for women.”

    Now, obviously in Minnesota, and other places, there are plenty of Black men getting together with White women and not “pimping them out.”

    I would agree with you, that given the statistics, a Black woman who feels that only Black men would be attracted to her, looks at these statistics with concern.

    I would disagree with you about the “insecurity” thing among White women. I’ll concede that there are a lot of insecure women out there, and because of a society where we’re incessantly bombarded with air-brushed, photo-shopped, size zero, Eurocentric beauty standards, I’m shocked there aren’t more self-esteem issues among women of all races.

    But one thing that changed since the civil rights movement, is that the image of the Black man is no longer limited to the Step-n-fetch, servile, bug-eyed, bloated, shuffling, and yes, “monkey-like” vision of the past. It can be easily surmised that the most famous people in the world are African-American Men:

    Muhammed Ali: in his prime he was grace, power, confidence and swagger.

    Michael Jordan: cool, indominable, unstoppable, he was the absolute envy of millions of teens and young adults who wanted to be “like Mike.”

    Tiger Woods: Focused, determined, excellence personified in a gentrified sport that used to exclude people of color.

    Will Smith: Smooth, charasmatic, multi-talented box office champion who turns nearly everything he touches into ticket sale gold, starring in heroic, world-saving, big-budget roles that would’ve been unheard of only a generation ago for African-Americans.

    President Barack Obama Need I say more?

    All of these men have their images beamed around the world as symbols of excellence, confidence, vigor, and power–all aphrodisiacs according to what many women claim, so if you’re a girl of any race growing up in this era, seeing Black men like that at the TOP of their perspective fields…why wouldn’t many be attracted to them and those who LOOK like them, except…

    … if somebody who influences them says it’s wrong.

    I’ve had some courageous discussions with old high school friends who confess that they couldn’t openly act on crushes they had on either myself or other Black classmates for fear of what their family might do, or how their peers would view them. Back in 85 when I was in High School, there was one “official” interracial couple out in the open. The girl was a white, pretty, Top 20 student and cheerleader. The guy was a basketball player/chorus member. Only the girl got tagged with harsh names and rumors. The irony is, of course, behind closed doors, interracial “hook ups” flourished. They just hid it from their parents and tried to hide it from their friends.

    It’s all in the mind.

    Even in 2009, this is a red-alert issue in many parts of the country. Interracial PROMS are still headline news in parts of the South. I believe that there’s still a white superiority-complex that affects far too many Americans, whether it’s pronounced via blatant discrimination, or implied via conscious decisions.

    Don’t misunderstand, I believe people have the right to be attracted to, date or marry anybody they please, but if somebody regards another person as being “better” or “worse” simply because of race, thats the dictionary definition of racism.

    Without going too far afield from the main subject, these kind of conversations are the ones Eric Holder talked about.

    Ruvy writes:

    “In short, your solution of mixed marriages will work here very successfully.”

    I can’t take credit for Nature. But I want to be clear. Eric Holder is saying America is “voluntarily socially segregated,” and we are all cowards when it comes to talking about racial issues. I just pointed to a remedy that occurs naturally, and will happen eventually on its own. You’ve hilighted some of the reasons that remedy hasn’t happened yet on a wide scale. It’s not entirely sex, in my opinion however. Half the drama over race that we face in America could be alleviated with real platonic relationships among people outside of work and school. A perfect example is what happens in the US Military. (IDF account incredibly similiar, Ruvy.) When you’re placing your lives in each other’s hands, all of sudden old stereotypes and bitter disagreements don’t seem to matter as much.

    –Cobra

  • Cindy

    Cobra,

    I have been thinking for a few days about what you seem to be saying. And I have to respectfully say, it doesn’t account for a problem I have.

    I’m not a segregationist, clearly. However, there are more problems to be solved than race, as far as I see.

    They won’t be solved by simply assimilating races into the dominant culture–as defined as the one that is busy here wrecking the world. With being on top comes control of all the major communication, education, and opinion. (right and left, it’s still constricted to the same box)

    There is something about evolution and nature that abhors a unified anything. When you have one thing you are subject to extinction. So, I’m not talking about race per se. But, with race seems to come ways of being and thinking that are culture.

    To simply assimilate everything into the one large monolithic culture, erases those cultures. And thus erases the ability to see other ways of being. I am not suggesting we should all live like hunter gatherers or become like aborigines. I am suggesting we can learn something from these people and all other people who are different from us as well as all the subcultures of the U.S. (which are not all race based)

    We can learn to accept differences–if we want. We will never be all the same. Not in three generations or ever. There will always be a group that is different. We will always have someone we can look down on. That is what needs to change, in my opinion. Accepting differences.

    We’ve already clearly demonstrated we don’t know how to live. I think we have already assimilated more than too many people into the monolith.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Cobra, one black conservative on the Supreme Court or as Secretary of State or in the White House does infinitely more to advance racial equality and put the days of segregation to rest than all the political posturing the Democrats have engaged in since they discovered that they could profit from race and class rivalry in about 1965.

    It also occurs to me that the entire issue of caging lists and keeping people from voting could be solved quickly and with no argument by one very simple law. Just require a government-issued photo ID in order to vote. End of problem.

    Dave

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cindy, your commet 540 is about the bestest thing I’ve ever seen you write. What you’re representing there is true multi-culturalism. Note that what you’re saying there does not suggest a need for more laws or programs but what might be called a spiritual openess which is, in a broad or metaphorical sense, the work of churches and civic groups mostly rather than governments and laws and force. Viva la difference.

    But Dave Nalle, on the other hand, is a no-good fascist racist bastard just trying to keep the poor people down with his proposal for voter ID laws. Obviously, requiring a photo ID to cast a vote is a thinly disguised racist imperialist capitalist plot to deprive poor dark colored people of the right to vote. He obviously only wants to let the rich white people vote. BAD WHITE MAN!

  • Clavos

    BAD WHITE MAN!

    That’s a tautology, Barger.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Dave writes:

    “Cobra, one black conservative on the Supreme Court or as Secretary of State or in the White House does infinitely more to advance racial equality and put the days of segregation to rest than all the political posturing the Democrats have engaged in since they discovered that they could profit from race and class rivalry in about 1965.”

    How do you figure this? What metrics are you using to determine “equality?” Net worth? Opportunity in employment? Health care access? Access to capital? What do you have to back up your statement besides your own signature?

    I’m not saying that to try to score points. I’m saying that because I really want to know what you’re basing this notion on. As for me, I have pages of racial disparity in any host of subjects that tell me we still have a big problem in America that no one or two political appointments can alleviate.

    Cindy writes:

    “When you have one thing you are subject to extinction. So, I’m not talking about race per se. But, with race seems to come ways of being and thinking that are culture.

    To simply assimilate everything into the one large monolithic culture, erases those cultures. And thus erases the ability to see other ways of being. I am not suggesting we should all live like hunter gatherers or become like aborigines. I am suggesting we can learn something from these people and all other people who are different from us as well as all the subcultures of the U.S. (which are not all race based)”

    This is a deep statement. And it might surprise you, but I agree with some of it. My problem is that we as a society, at least in America, want to have it both ways.

    How realistic is it to expect two separate groups given unequal treatment or environment to produce the same results, or enjoy the same standards of living?

    Human nature states that we fear what is different, and we’re wary of things we’re unfamiliar with. I feel we’re just not being honest about it.

    The Amish, living in the Pennsylvania Dutch Country are “segregationists,” in the sense that they choose to live amongst each other, self-sustain themselves with agricultural and crafts, and reinforce Amish life in all aspects from cradle to grave.

    Do I favor the Amish giving up this lifestyle, drop the horse buggies and get down with electricity like the rest of America?

    That’s up to the Amish. From my perspective, the Amish don’t have any control or impact on my life, nor will any of my decisions have any impact on theirs, (other than buying a Shoo-fly pie or two when I visit).

    And the thing about the Amish is this…they wouldn’t want to. They’re not involved in American society other than the fact that they pay taxes. They have lived their lives the same way for about hundreds of years. It doesn’t matter how everybody lives.

    That’s just not the case with groups who are not self-sufficient “hunter gatherers” as you put it, where the “land” won’t provide food, clothing and shelter. Unlike Amish society, there’s competition for jobs, resources and access to capital. Political power is wielded for those with access, where just the church elders make decisions in Amishland.

    Short and sweet–those who favor segregation expecting “Amish community success” from groups without a self-sufficient philosophy are always going to be disappointed.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    How do you figure this? What metrics are you using to determine “equality?” Net worth? Opportunity in employment? Health care access? Access to capital? What do you have to back up your statement besides your own signature?

    That stuff is all nice, Cobra, but what actually matters is perception. What matters is that the black kid who is growing up today can look around and see positive black role models and know from their example that he is not inferior or looked down on by society as a whole. If he encounters some small prejudice in his life this will help him understand that it’s a flaw in the individual who he’s dealing with, not society as a whole.

    Give the kid the expectation of equality and the belief that he can achieve it and the metrics will follow along behind it inevitably.

    I’m not saying that to try to score points. I’m saying that because I really want to know what you’re basing this notion on. As for me, I have pages of racial disparity in any host of subjects that tell me we still have a big problem in America that no one or two political appointments can alleviate.

    And so long as you’re cataloging disparity and being negative about opportunity you remain part of the problem, just like affirmative action programs which institutionalize the idea of racial inferiority.

    Dave

  • Cindy

    Cobra,

    How realistic is it to expect two separate groups given unequal treatment or environment to produce the same results, or enjoy the same standards of living?

    That’s right. It’s not realistic to expect. It’s why I am anti-Capitalist and anti-government and I support egalitarian communities and I don’t believe in owning land.

    And that may seem unrealistic. But I look around at all the people endlessly arguing over government and corporate interests and greed and to me it seems like a much less realistic proposition to expect anything that nurtures human rights and justice to come out of those.

    And it might be time for new ideas. I hope it is. If it’s not, then it’s not. I’ll always have something good to strive for.

    Anyway (for no apparent reason, but I thought of them), here are some cool films*. Have you heard of the Qatsi trilogy? These are Hopi words and their translated meanings. These are just the trailers. Some are easily found online in full feature length.

    Koyaanisqatsi: Life Out of Balance
    Powaqqatsi: Life in Transformation
    Naqoyqatsi: Life as War

    *Godfrey Reggio, Francis Ford Coppola, George Lucas, Philip Glass

  • Cindy

    …just like affirmative action programs which institutionalize the idea of racial inferiority.

    And the programs that benefit whites? What do they institutionalize?

  • Hope and Change?

    “Programs that benefit whites” Really….

    Please name these programs…specifics please… not the typical left wing loon inuendos…

  • Hope and Change?

    Cobra,

    Why do colleges and pro-sports use affirmative action programs and quotas for academia and management BUT NOT FOR SPORTS?

    Hmmmm….seems to me that over 85% of basketball players are black but blacks make up less than 12% if the population…so based upon these statistics this sport support instutionalized racism…

    How does reality fit into your politcally correct, entitlement world?

  • Doug Hunter

    Every discussion of race comes down to the base conundrum.

    Given fact: Blacks, when measured as a self selected group, underperform on average in a multitude of metrics from crime, to education, to income, etc.

    Two bad choices:

    1) If you believe it’s their own fault then you have committed social suicide and will be branded a racist. It is a well established fact that there can be no difference caused by genetics between groups of people.

    2) If it’s not their fault then it’s your fault and you owe them something to make them whole again (reparations, affirmative action, etc.)

    Otherwise it’s some pussyfooting around trying to duck #2 without triggering #1.

    Perhaps we should treat this the same way we treat standardized testings. If blacks fail in our indicators perhaps we should stop blaming them and blame the parameters of the tests. Perhaps we’re measuring them by white wealth standards, and white crime standards and it’s just not fair.

  • Doug Hunter

    I also forgot the option b under choice 1 which is to blame blacks, but put it all on culture and not genetics (the Dave Nalle answer). This isn’t really a solution though as it just begs further questions of how this culture arose and what propagates it. If it was created in response to majority actions then you’re right back to choice #2.

  • Cindy

    Re #548

    H&C,

    See my posts at #90, 91, 93, 95 on
    Institutionalized Racism

  • Doug Hunter

    Institutionalized racism is a fantasy invented by a black panther to fill the gap and explain continued black underperformance in context of the decrease in overt racism. Even if you fall for the lie it’s a misnomer to label what is described as racism. It’s more of the unfortunate side effects of being poor and has nothing to do with skin pigmentation.

  • Hope and Change?

    I checked your “proof and references”…Like I said when called upon to document real examples of so called white prefrence we find no real data…just “it feels like”…”everybody knows”..or some academic bullshit conducted with biased samples by some affirmative action professor (aka King Barry)…blah..blah…NO HARD PROOF.

    So Cindy “splain” to me the role of affirmative action in sports?

  • Hope and Change?

    So if basketball would be “dumbed down” by using racial quotas…forcing less talented players to play based upon a point system for race….why cant we admit that forced diversity of quotas actually “dumbs down” the educational system..

  • Cindy

    H&C,

    I gave you proof. The points used at the university were clear. They benefited groups that are white.

    I’m not sure what you need. Do you think that there is going to be a program actually called “affirmative action for white people”?

    (I must say though–I’d much rather argue with you than insult you :-)

  • Hope and Change?

    Cindy..sorry but you are in fantasy land..there are no such programs! Just by saying it over and over again doesnt make it true!!

    What about sports???

  • Doug Hunter

    “I gave you proof.”

    Not really. There is nothing racist about a rural student point. If so, then every ‘urban’ or ‘inner city’ program must be called racist. I’m not sure your mind is ready to grasp the similarities though.

  • Cindy

    Sports? Not really my thing. I think sports are boring. I hate to be bored.

  • Hope and Change?

    Cindy so you admit that you are a racist???

    What about the short white guy guy who grew up in the affulent suburbs who never had the opportunity to roam the inner streets dodging bullets, not going to school and shooting hoops all day!

    How can we descriminate against him. His whole life he wanted to be in the NBA! And just because he is white he will never realize his dream!.. ohhhh the humanity!

    Cindy..if I didnt know you are sounding just like a left wing hypocrit….who voted for Barry just because he is black ….well… er….um….you know… half black

  • Hope and Change?

    Cindy..if I didnt know you better are beginning to sound like a left wing hypocrit….who voted for Barry just because he is black ….well… er….um….you know… half black

  • Cindy

    Well H&C, I’m afraid there’s no sense arguing with that analysis.

  • Cindy

    H&C,

    Just in case you missed my subtle implication in comment #562. I figured I would give you a diagram.

    Sports? I think sports are boring. (me)

    Cindy so you admit that you are a racist??? (you)

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    See Cindy? The merry-go-round starts again.

    None of the individuals who just posted had the guts to answer the two key questions:

    “Are you an integrationist, or a segregationist?

    Do you believe that “races” should remain sacrosanct, or mix to the point where the concept is completely irrelevant within three generations?”

    Oh no. They’d rather frame the issue into statistical mudslinging, and avoid the heart of the matter…that race is a social construct.

    Al Barger had the courage to finally answer those questions. I don’t agree with many things Al Barger says, but at least he addressed the issue, which led to a deeper, more complex, and more courageous conversation.

    Cindy, you answered part of the question earlier as well. This isn’t a pass/fail examination. People should have the guts to stand for what they believe in openly.

    –Cobra

  • Hope and Change?

    Cobra..why are you afraid to compete fairly with white folks?

    Can you answer the qustion – Is it nature or nuture?

    Nature – are some minorty groups genetically predisposed with a lower intellect, or

    Nuture – is it that some minorty cultures dont value family life, marriage, good nutrution, eduction, work, drug free lifestyles, etc. and therefor cannot function normally?

    Well….which one is your excuse for needing to dumb down the system so you can compete?

    Stragge…you refuse to answer the sports question?

  • Cindy

    I say definitely ‘nuture’…at least in some cases.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Answer my questions first, H & C.

    I’ve only been asking them since Comment #161.

    Don’t be a coward. Prove to me you have a pair.

    After you do that, I’ll deal with yours.

    –Cobra

  • Hope and Change?

    I believe people should screw who the want and live wherever they want…no one should force or deny people to intermiz or stay with their own kind.

    OK answer the questions…Cobra…how come a so-called Proud Black Man like yourself…is so afrain of competing fairly with white folk?

    (Cindy I thought you would be Sams Club today….I heard there is a big sale Depends, lard and Oreo cookies…)

  • Cindy

    lol you’re insults are getting better H&C :-)

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Hope & Change- I appreciate many of your sharp questions, but you should try to play nice. The Sams Club stuff wasn’t necessary.

    But Cobra, let me ask respectfully a related question. Do you agree with me that affirmative action programs are inherently and by definition racist? Do you support this kind of institutionalized racism?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You probably already realize this, Cobra, but there literally is no point in arguing with H&C.

    His ignorance and lack of understanding – his #560 being an absolutely spectacular example – is apparently boundless.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    H & C writes:

    “I believe people should screw who the want and live wherever they want…no one should force or deny people to intermiz or stay with their own kind.”

    That’s an interesting answer. You dodge the questions by making a general non-committal comment that doesn’t explicitly state what you believe in. You’re essentially just agreeing with what is presently enforced by law. In other words…

    You copped out on the answer. You behaved cowardly. From what you DID write, one can surmise that you support “voluntary self-segregation”, which makes you H & C, a “Segregationist”. Given your past posts on this blog regarding African-Americans, that’s not surprising to me at all.

    H & C asks:

    “Cobra..why are you afraid to compete fairly with white folks?

    Even Al Barger says, “Life isn’t fair”. So why would I expect “fair” treatment in a nation with a dubious racial history like America? A self-defined Segregationist like yourself would should know better than to ask that question. I’m not afraid of competing with anybody. I’m also not oblivious to the existance of racial discrimination in America. The American table I’m sitting at plays with marked cards, with bottom dealing, and card counting by players who got their big stacks through theft, murder, slavery and Jim Crow, so don’t look cross at me for playing an angle.

    H&C writes:

    “Can you answer the qustion – Is it nature or nuture?”

    Science, not Cobra, but SCIENCE says that race is a social construct. You already seem to deny American History, and anti-minority discrimination in America. Don’t tell me you’re denying science, too?

    H&C writes in his follow up loaded, slanted, poorly designed gotcha question:

    “Nature – are some minorty groups genetically predisposed with a lower intellect, or

    Nuture – is it that some minorty cultures dont value family life, marriage, good nutrution, eduction, work, drug free lifestyles, etc. and therefor cannot function normally?

    Well….which one is your excuse for needing to dumb down the system so you can compete?”

    Science states that race is a social construct. Science in the last genome map of the United States tells me that upwards of 80 million Whites have African DNA running through their blood. In other words, H&C, you could be more “black” than I am genetically, which make your questions self-depricating.

    Putting that reality aside, H&C, if you want me to play in a rigged game, I’d be a fool not to take any advantage or leverage I can.

    I play to win.

    Al Barger writes:

    ” Do you agree with me that affirmative action programs are inherently and by definition racist? Do you support this kind of institutionalized racism?”

    Part 1. No. The primarily beneficiary of Affirmative Action is the White woman.

    Part 2. I support Affirmative Action BECAUSE America was founded on, and still to some extent, Institutional Racism. I could dump a whole load of data on you right about here, but I’ve found that most people still won’t accept it.
    But Princeton Sociologist Devah Pager has done extensive research on hiring, and discovered:

    “The results of these studies were startling. Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.”

    Stacked deck, Brother Al. Rigged Game. Tilted table.

    But remember Al, I didn’t create the “game”. I’m just a player in it.

    And I play to win.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra- Now YOU are dodging my simple question: Will you agree that affirmative action is inherently and by definition racist? Or if you prefer, is affirmative action inherently and by definition racist and sexist?

    Now, you might have points of argument for why you think we should have institutionalized racism to supposedly make life more “fair” by making up for blah, blah, blah. But do you deny that giving quotas or preferential treatment through affirmative action is racist?

    I will again affirm the wisdom of a late friend, who always told her children, “Life isn’t fair, and you don’t always get your turn.” This applies to pretty much EVERYONE whose name isn’t Kennedy or Bush of whatever pigmentation.

  • Hope and Change?

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    Marked cards? Jim Crow? Institutional Racism…. what a bunch politically correct bullshit

  • Hope and Change?

    Dr….560…

    So Cobra wants to bend the rules for blacks when it comes to jobs…but not in sports?

    Hmmmm so in football we want the best, the fastest and most agile….but in the rest of life you want to base your decision on someones skin color and not the merits of the person…hmmmm…

    Dr, I dont have a white guilt trip…[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Al Barger writes:

    “Cobra- Now YOU are dodging my simple question: Will you agree that affirmative action is inherently and by definition racist? Or if you prefer, is affirmative action inherently and by definition racist and sexist?

    This was my exact answer:

    “Part 1. No. The primarily beneficiary of Affirmative Action is the White woman.”

    Al, I gave a direct answer to your question…“NO.” That’s not the answer you wanted to hear, but it’s the answer you got. Ask yourself a question…if a program helps Blacks, Latinos, Native Americans and White Women, where’s the “racism” at?

    Al Barger writes:

    ” But do you deny that giving quotas or preferential treatment through affirmative action is racist?”

    First, quotas are illegal. As I said before, Affirmative Action deals with race, ethnicity and gender, so it’s not by definition, “racist.” If you present me with an America that is NOT racist, ethnically discriminatory and sexist, then I’d be happy to disavow Affirmative Action.

    Al Barger writes:

    “Life isn’t fair, and you don’t always get your turn.”

    If that’s the attitude you want others to live by, what possible problem could you have with Affirmative Action?

    H&C writes:

    “Dr, I dont have a white guilt trip…[Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    You’re posting these plaintive wails online in hopes that the Limbaugh-wing of the GOP Cybercorps will chirp up to support you, or get a rise out of any minorities or liberals online.

    The only thing you have rising in me is the volume of my laughter.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Cobra- I apologize. Actually, “no” is an answer- it’s just an absolutely and unquestionably factually incorrect answer. The whole point of affirmative action is to give someone preference specifically for their race (or gender). That is purposely judging someone by the color of their skin rather than the content of their character.

    That is the very definition of racism. That’s not ambiguous.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Cobra’s right, I’m afraid, H&C. You don’t debate. You either don’t have an interest in doing so or don’t have the ability.

    When someone makes a point you can’t refute or don’t understand you either
    (a) pretend they said what you would like them to have said, rather than what they actually did say
    (b) pretend they didn’t say it at all
    (c) repeat their words back to them with certain phrases changed, or
    (d) resort to insults.

    It’s quite a repertoire, but it won’t get you a passing grade in forensics.

    For the record, I’m not a huge fan of affirmative action. But it does depend how you go about it. In an ideal world, everyone would get a fair go. But, as the study Cindy cited bears out, that doesn’t always happen when it comes to your skin color. I don’t see that there’s a great deal of harm, therefore, in devising some sort of hiring method that compensates for this bias.

    I’ve encountered hiring processes which try to remove interviewer bias, by asking each interviewee the exact same questions and scoring them based on certain things the employer is looking for in their answers. The problem with that is that you might just end up with the person who’s good at tests but doesn’t shine so much in the real world.

    As for sports, I suggest that perhaps there is affirmative action there. Team owners, scouts and coaches have their prejudices and preconceptions just like everyone else. If they share the popular perception that African-Americans are good at football and basketball, then they’ll sign up more African-Americans.

    There isn’t the perception that African-Americans are good at hockey (even though it can be argued that they invented the modern game) and – well, whaddaya know?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cobra,

    To get anywhere here, I’m afraid you’re gonna have to narrow the discussion down to few voices and few points. You won’t convince everyone, so why not let go. There’s Cindy’s comment, for one, some of mine I made earlier, Doc’s – even Barger’s to a point – so why not run with these and see whether we can make some headway on these; otherwise, it’ll be constant back & forth, and I have no interest in this.

    Let’s start with what you call “voluntary segregation,” then “affirmative action,” perhaps. I’ve already expressed my view of the first earlier and now (is it because of the other voices?) you seem to have backtracked.

    Shall we do it?

    Roger

    PS to the comments editor: The italics took over.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Roger writes:

    “Let’s start with what you call “voluntary segregation,” then “affirmative action,” perhaps. I’ve already expressed my view of the first earlier and now (is it because of the other voices?) you seem to have backtracked.

    Shall we do it?”

    I don’t feel like I’ve backtracked, but perhaps some could get that impression when I delve into detail.

    When I’m asked questions on subjects such as Affirmative Action, or some other related topic on race, I wanted to give frank, prompt and direct answers..which was my bone of contention for most of this blog thread. If I don’t extend the same courtesy that I demand of others in conversation or debate, the conversation becomes one-sided and not trustworthy.

    For example, Ruvy made a comment on Black men and white women dating in Minnesota that I thought was inaccurate. I provided context, factual analysis and added counter points so the reader wouldn’t be left with the impression that my silence was tacit approval or agreement.

    The Affirmative Action discussion is inevitable, but I feel that proponents tend to get mired in statistics slinging, and not the heart of the issue, IMHO. I think I got my points across pretty succinctly in that case.

    My bottom line is that segregation is at the heart of all of these topics. Race is a social construct. It’s the theme I keep going back to.

    Americans want to have their cake and eat it too.

    Roger, take a look at Dave’s statement here:

    “That stuff is all nice, Cobra, but what actually matters is perception. What matters is that the black kid who is growing up today can look around and see positive black role models and know from their example that he is not inferior or looked down on by society as a whole. If he encounters some small prejudice in his life this will help him understand that it’s a flaw in the individual who he’s dealing with, not society as a whole.”

    Now, I’m not going to jump on Dave for this, because the theory he puts forth here actually has something we can build upon. Let’s dig down together here…

    “Perception”

    When Dave says “perception”, we have to understand that the human mind drinks everything in, and not just the messages and images we’d like it to. For example, I couldn’t conjure up “more positive role models” for black kids (or kids in general) than President Obama & his family. How many touchstone issues there? Academic achievement? Outstanding. Ambition? Off the charts.Marriage and Family values? Awe-inspiring. Repeated emphasis on education and rebuke of old stereotypes such as “acting white?” They’ve got it all–virtually EVERYTHING that “mainstream society” has argued that minority groups “need to do” to be accepted and embraced into American Society the Obamas have excelled in.

    But the perception of the black kid seeing the Obama family is also going to be shaped by the vitriolic verbal attacks on the Obamas by primarily White conservatives and reactionaries. Legitimate criticism on policy, voting record, statements and philosophy is absolutely justified. Hell, even I don’t agree with everything President Obama has said or done. But ask yourself, Dave…

    If a black kid were to look online at his or her computer tonight, whether in his or her dormroom, at the library, or at home…comes across this blog, and reads the headline of this blog thread:

    “Eric Holder’s Demagoguery, Legislation Writing Chimps, the Not-So-Magic Negro and the Monkey That Became President”

    Or the New York Post Cartoon…

    Or this cartoon from the Mayor of Los Alamitos,CA.

    Or questions about his citizenship…
    Or claims that he’s a terrorist…
    Or claims that he’s the anti-christ…
    Or watching grown White men crying,(not tears of joy) at the prospect of an Obama election…

    What do you think his or her “perception” will be?
    That Black kid most likely already KNOWS the economic and social disparities that I listed as racial progress metrics; he or she is living them. That Black kid probably already knows Whites who have “voluntarily self-segregated” themselves right out his or her neighborhood. Perhaps the only real life interaction with White adults now revolves around teachers, utility & service workers or law enforcement– mostly commerce or authoritarian relationships.

    The message is loud and clear. It doesn’t matter what you accomplish, you’re still Black, and you’re considered LESS.

    Dave, I agree with you that positive Black role models around all children are essential. I would add that positive role models of ALL socially constructed races and ethnicities are important, but if we’re “voluntarily self-segregated” how will this phenomena manifest itself?

    –Cobra

  • Andrew Yu-Jen Wang

    Speaking of U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder:

    Eric Holder is a racial-minority individual, and in his heart and mind he inevitably does not endorse hate crimes committed by George W. Bush.

    George W. Bush committed hate crimes of epic proportions and with the stench of terrorism (indicated in my blog).

    George W. Bush did in fact commit innumerable hate crimes.

    And I do solemnly swear by Almighty God that George W. Bush committed other hate crimes of epic proportions and with the stench of terrorism which I am not at liberty to mention.

    Many people know what Bush did.

    And many people will know what Bush did—even to the end of the world.

    Bush was absolute evil.

    Bush is now like a fugitive from justice.

    Bush is a psychological prisoner.

    Bush has a lot to worry about.

    Bush can technically be prosecuted for hate crimes at any time.

    In any case, Bush will go down in history in infamy.

    Submitted by Andrew Yu-Jen Wang
    B.S., Summa Cum Laude, 1996
    Messiah College, Grantham, PA
    Lower Merion High School, Ardmore, PA, 1993

    “GEORGE W. BUSH IS THE WORST PRESIDENT IN U.S. HISTORY” BLOG OF ANDREW YU-JEN WANG
    ______________________
    I am not sure where I had read it before, but anyway, it is a linguistically excellent statement, and it goes kind of like this: “If only it were possible to ban invention that bottled up memories so they never got stale and faded.” Oh wait—off the top of my head—I think the quotation came from my Lower Merion High School yearbook.

  • Clavos

    Messiah College, Grantham, PA

    They’ve already named a college for the Stimulator.

    What happened to the tradition of not naming things for living people?

  • Ike Hunley

    [Edited] Eric Holder should have added a nation of liars. Americans usually lie about racism. I have dealt with racism at vaious places I have worked at for 35 years.

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Ike- I do so tire of the ceaseless use of the word “racist” in ever expanding, undefined and unprovable contexts. Depending on how you broadly you want to define the word, pretty much absolutely EVERYONE is some kind of “racist.”

    For starters, there are notable actual differences between different ethnic and racial groups. It’s one thing to call someone a “racist” if they are just determined to think the worst and hate on anyone who is some and such race.

    On the other hand, noticing that some groups in your workplace have better work habits and attendance is not racism – it’s pattern recognition. Which is not to say anything about your workplace experiences – but then neither did you. What exactly is this horrible “racism” that we’re all supposedly lying about?

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Where have you gone, Brother Al Barger? A nation turns its lonely eyes to you… woo woo woo….

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Brother Silas! I’ve missed you too, but (speaking of racism) I’ve been busy uncovering the Eastern Conspiracy.

    XOX

  • Bliffle

    The kind of racist hokum promised by an article headline like this:

    “…Not-So-Magic Negro and the Monkey That Became President”

    induces me to skip over it. I did the same thing at leftist sites which prated about GWB being “a chimp”.

    The title of this article is even worse.

    Apparently Al either doesn’t understand that this kind of thing tends to cast him as a racist, or he thinks he has some noble purpose that permits him to express childish slurs.

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Howdy Bliffle, long time no see. You say “doesn’t understand that this kind of thing tends to cast him as a racist.” No, that’s not it. It would be more the point that I understand perfectly well that some left wingers and race baiters happily intimidate people into silence with the threat of accusations of “racism” like this.

    I recognize this and mock such attempts at bullying. That would be part of the point. I laugh at such things, at least as regards me. I invite anyone to read the actual article and make their own conclusions. If someone reads the story and wants to decide that I’m “racist,” they’re welcome to hold that opinion – as I am welcome to hold the opinion that they’re idiots.

    And I notice how convenient it is that the headline is enough for you to know that my story is “racist hokum” and denounce it publicly as such without having to read it or respond to the content of the article.

    Do you really think that the denunciation of a random anonymous internet commenter who is proud not to have read the story would or should mean anything at all?

  • Bliffle

    Bafflegab.

    You aren’t mocking anything except yourself.

    I read your article: it’s racist hokum. I would think you’d be embarrassed.

    All your hair-splitting and dodging is futile against anyone with half a brain, and I have 3/4 of a brain.

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Bliffle- Do please unpack this charge for me. In what way is my article “racist”? Don’t just call me names – explain what exactly I’m saying that is wrong.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Liberal line-drawers rarely explain the sin, Senator Barger. They point the finger and howl – like monkeys. They are just like the Catholics who ran the Inquisition. You’re guilty, and no matter what you say will not expunge the guilt. You’re a racist, that’s all there is to it. Just like I’m a Christ-killer. There’s no getting out of it for me, and no getting out of it for you.

    Oh, before you even think of answering, Brother Al, according to Cobra, I’m being monitored by the Feds, so anyone who answers me will also be monitored. Be aware – and be afraid!

  • Jordan Richardson

    You’re a racist, that’s all there is to it. Just like I’m a Christ-killer.

    Probably the dumbest comparison I’ve ever seen.

    Barger, you say “absolutely EVERYONE is some kind of racist.” So what’s your beef, then? So what if your article is racist? Isn’t everyone?

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Jordan- By the broadest and most asinine definition as applied by some modern liberal types, everyone is a racist. In this point, basically having any opinion differentiating any ethnic group in any way from any other – thus denying the party line that we all voted on that everyone is exactly the same – is “racist.” I am a racist among other reasons, for example, for noticing that Asian kids are typically better students than most other ethnic groups.

    Stuff on about that level is enough to get you labeled a “racist.” If simple pattern recognition is “racist,” then sure, I’m a racist. Of course, the people hollering about racism are generally rather more racist than me – obsessing on race. It’s just that they have the correct racism: white man bad (unless they get absolution by voting Democrat and wearing sackcloth and ashes), dark people good.

    My beef is the dishonesty and malice in all this. Typically at this point in American history, charges of racism are simply a tactic of intimidation. Leftists very often knowingly use this asinine broad definition of “racism” to say or imply that anyone who expresses any substantially differing opinion on any broadly racial issue are wicked Klansman, ignorant and full of hate. It’s a cheesy, dishonest little package deal – a false equation.

    “Racism” is the mark of Cain. If you can slap that mark on someone, then they are wicked and bad. They are discredited and to be shunned. “Ewww” as Dawn Olsen expressed it at the front of this comment thread.

    So then, I insist that the word “racist” either be de-stigmatized as essentially meaningless, or returned to a meaningful usage.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Barger, you are what is known generally as a “race baiter.”

    From Wikipedia for lack of a better source at the moment:

    Race baiting is an act of using racially derisive language, actions or other forms of communication, to anger, intimidate or incite a person or groups of people, or to make those persons behave in ways that are inimical, and often harmful to their personal or group interests.

    Note that the generally associated definition of racism is that racial “differences” produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. This is no left or right wing definition and it really doesn’t matter whether or not you find something “wrong” with it.

    Racism has no connotations of good or bad inherently by this definition. It is not to suggest institutional racism, either, nor that people be denied certain rights due to race or, conversely, given certain rights due to race.

    So you’re asking people what’s “wrong” with an article like this or a suggestion like “Asians are good at math,” but that’s not an issue that can be answered objectively. What’s racist about it is that you are making judgments on ethnicity. Whether that’s right or wrong is a matter of personal opinion, but there’s no question whatsoever that the statement is racist.

    In any event, for whatever reason, I don’t think you’re a bad person nor do I think you mean a particularly negative connotation by the material located here or elsewhere. I do think you are a race baiter, as I said before, and I do think you say racist things like many of us do from time to time. I think you use those things as bait, as I mentioned, and to incite others to respond.

    In terms of “charges of racism” in American history, I don’t believe that we are in a position to judge. That there was and largely is institutional racism in America and around the world is a fact. It goes without saying. That people play the race card also goes without saying. We live in sensitive times because the institutional racism is NOT distant history in the United States. It is anything but. Many living grandfathers were unable to vote and have equal rights, for example.

    The word “racism” is not meaningless, but it must be clarified for sake of discussion: you shouldn’t judge or characterize based on race because it is intellectualy lazy to generalize in any way, but it isn’t always negative when you do.

  • http://www.morethings.com Al Barger

    Jordan- I suppose I’m baiting somebody, but it’s not people of other races. I have no intention or desire to agitate anyone because of their race.

    It would be more accurate to call me a “liberal baiter.” I do intend to provoke the hateful and dishonest kind of liberals to show their true colors, and to just plain fluster them in their pat little self-righteous worldviews.

    Also, you claim that the fact that there “largely is institutional racism in America” is a fact that is so obvious that it goes without saying. I do not in fact recognize this as a fact. I understand some sensitivity in that Jim Crow was only going through its death throes in my lifetime, but it’s been pretty well dead for about 40 years now.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ah, but Al you are agitating people because of race. Even though you aren’t doing it based on their particular race, you’re using the conception of race and racism to agitate and provoke. Generally this is an effective way to raise awareness of issues, as some of the best thought-provoking comedy and commentary comes as the result of similar ground. Unfortunately for you, something very significant is lost in the translation and delivery and most people tend to miss what you claim your intent is.

    In terms of institutional racism in the United States, go have a look at the textbooks in many black schools. Check the dates on them and see how outdated they are. Check out who gets grants, scholarships and school money first, too. I bet it isn’t the African-American schools.

    Also, the response to AIDS in ethnic communities is another example of institutional racism in our modern world.

    The 2002 case of Assem Bayaa in Los Angeles at the airport is another case of racism in America, as the ongoing use of racial profiling by police officers across the United States.

    And it’s not just in the United States, either. There are examples around the world, even in Canada with our rather disturbing history with the Chinese and the head tax. Only recently was this apologized for and properly dealt with.

    We needn’t look to the gross examples of Jim Crow or the KKK to find examples of institutional racism. It happens every single day around the world. It is a sad reality of a world that still cannot look beyond the concept of race.

    Institutional racism has not been “pretty well dead for about 40 years now.”

  • Jordan Richardson

    This page from ERASE offers more information (specifically on housing, but click the other links if you wish) on institutional racism occurring today.