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Ending The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

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Some major compromises are needed to achieve a lasting peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The duration of the conflict has, however, led to such engrained attitudes, policies, strategies and aims that compromises are extremely difficult. The number of people killed in the conflict is also a factor. Parties on both sides want to ensure that the dead did not die in vain. Here are the perspectives as seen by either side:

The Palestinian Perspective:

More Palestinians have been killed in the struggle than Israelis. The Palestinians have a greater weight on their shoulders to avenge deaths by gaining a sovereign state and other conditions. However, this also gives the Palestinians the greater desire for peace, because as the conflict goes on they will continue to be the biggest losers in terms of civilian casualties.

The Palestinians have also come to believe that Israel does not want peace, because of the provocative tactics during ceasefires and negotiations. Like the West Bank arrest raids during the recent ceasefire, and the current operation in Nablus, which has dampened hopes of restarting the stalled peace process: Israel's failure to adhere to previous peace deals, like the settlement expansions contrary to the U.S. brokered roadmap agreement, reinforces the Palestinian view.

As does the West Bank "security" wall that Israel is building. Mainly because the Palestinians negotiations rely on the formation of an independent Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, the wall is well inside these borders in some places. Palestinian Negotiations Minister Saib Uraiqat said last year: "This is a policy of dictation and not negotiation, this prejudges and prejudices the outcome of permanent status negotiations."

This prevents the Palestinians from making any further concessions or compromises, because the concessions they have made in the past – like the Palestine Liberation Organization's recognition of Israel – have yielded nothing in return. In their resistance lies their dignity, and their dignity is almost all they have left.

The Israeli Perspective:

Israel has received heavy financial and military support from the U.S. throughout decades of conflict. Israelis may well doubt whether this would continue if they were no longer under threat from Palestinian terror. The U.S. supports Israel because it wants an ally in a position of supremacy in the vital Middle East region. But Israel also being threatened certainly makes it easier to explain to the U.S. public why heavy support is needed.

The Israeli government also has strong remnants of the Zionist movement that was the driving force behind the creation of the Jewish state – on the very land so symbolically important to the Jewish faith. As Israeli academic and author Ilan Pape told me in a recent interview, "Israel is an unfinished project of statehood." The Zionists crave certain lands that they believe religious heritage has dictated for the final Jewish state, and hence Israel's reluctance to define borders. To this end, the conflict is necessary, because it diverts attention from Zionist transgressions and because the Palestinian threat begets strong security measures, like occupying Palestinian land whenever necessary, along with the land-annexing security wall. These measures are also extremely provocative, and fuel the vicious cycle of violence.

The wall has been deemed illegal by the International Court of Justice. And the United Nations Security Council has tried many times to issue resolutions against the high civilian death toll of Israeli military operations, occupations and Israel's transgression of human rights laws, as well as taking measures to bring about Israeli adherence to earlier resolutions. The U.S. has used its veto almost every time to prevent the Security Council from condemning Israel's activities. Over the years the unquestioning U.S. support for Israel has become engrained in Washington’s psyche.

The duration of the conflict has also allowed the American Israel Public Affairs Committee to become one of the strongest lobbying groups in the U.S. Its primary objective is ensuring continued U.S. support for Israel. Until Israel is held accountable for its actions, the Zionist element will remain strong and will continue to strive for its dream at the expense of peace and the Palestinian population.

The threat that makes this possible is constantly manipulated to present fear for Israel's existence and to allow constant reminders of the Holocaust and the guilt we should all feel – especially the U.S. – for failing to stop it. This aim was helped by the Hamas charter calling for the destruction of Israel, despite the fact that Hamas has never been close to having the means to achieve this aim. This kind of manipulation forces the Israeli population to back Tel Aviv’s reluctance to compromise for peace. Because the fear of Palestinian terrorism is amplified, the Israeli population believes that giving them their own state would not stop the terror; and in fact the terror groups would continue to force the Israeli government to concede more and more land.

This view was strengthened after the Gaza disengagement. Because the Israeli government evicted Jewish residents to allow for the withdrawal, in Israel it was seen as a significant concession by the government – but the terror continued. The Palestinians were still under the Israeli microscope, still had no control of their border, and were still enduring flyovers and high decibel sonic booms from Israeli fighter jets, thought to cause pregnant women to miscarry. Thus Palestinians saw the disengagement as creating an open air prison and a propaganda tactic to strengthen support for Israel's government at their expense. It worked, like all similar tactics in the past. The disengagement strengthened the Israeli view that their government wants only peace. The provocative actions over the years suggest the opposite.

Required for Peace:

The Palestinians too, are guilty of allowing other issues to cloud their judgment and supersede their desire for peace. It is the Israeli government, though, that needs to take the first step.

Until Israel puts Zionism back in its box – having served its purpose – and makes some sort of compromise to counter the Palestinian views caused by the years of the cruel occupation and Zionist land grabs, there will be no compromise from the Palestinians. Until there is compromise from the Palestinians, especially over the right of return – which Israel cannot grant because it would end their Jewish status – there will be no final status agreements and no lasting peace.

Israel won't take the first step until the international community starts holding it accountable for its actions, and this won't happen until the U.S. stops shielding it from the UNSC. This, if it ever happens, will likely come in line with U.S. pressure on Israel to commit to achieving a lasting peace with the Palestinians, and perhaps a threat to withdraw support if they don't. This would place significant pressure on the Israeli government to commit to peace, but will only happen if U.S. interests in the region change drastically.

If Israel committed unquestioningly to peace, after the initial doubts, it would undoubtedly trigger a similar commitment from the Palestinian population and government. Such a commitment from both sides is what is really needed to end this conflict.

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About Liam Bailey

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Sorry to be ever-the-cynic about the M.E. but as long as religion provides the fuel for the political, territorial, societal and economic fires there, they will continue to flare up out of control forever. We have to recognize the real insanity behind killing people for centuries over conflicting interpretations of fictional ancient literature! Yes, they can make temporary compromises from time to time, usually to buy more time in order to gain some short term political or military advantage. But, IMO, nothing and no one will ever bring lasting peace as long as Jews, Muslims, and Christians keep slaughtering each other because of “God’s word”. Psychosis doesn’t just go away.

  • methuselah

    You are correct, Lee.

  • moonraven

    I don’t get it. Let me see if I understand you.

    You are basing your article on a proposed Israeli commitment to peace?

    When has Israeli ever showed the slightest inclination to live peacefully with Palestinians?

    They have no peaceful intentions, and they will not have any peaceful intentions in the future. All of their behavior has shown that.

    The only “solution” to the problem is to de-countrify Israel and find another part of the planet that is willing to take in the Israelis.

    I don’t think it will be a piece of cake, as they have showed themselves to have absolutely no desire to live peacefully with ANYONE.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I read Liam’s article and have some thoughts about it, but found Marthe’s comments above far more interesting. Let’s see if we can simplify what she says here so that even the rich dummies living in North Tel Aviv understand what she says…

    It’s instructive. Here is her premise.

    When has Israeli ever showed the slightest inclination to live peacefully with Palestinians?

    They have no peaceful intentions, and they will not have any peaceful intentions in the future. All of their behavior has shown that.

    Here is her conclusion:

    The only “solution” to the problem is to de-countrify Israel and find another part of the planet that is willing to take in the Israelis.

    Now we find her assessment of that suggested solution.

    I don’t think it will be a piece of cake, as they have showed themselves to have absolutely no desire to live peacefully with ANYONE.

    Now let’s put this in layman’s language (with the deja vu points in parens).

    Israelis do not want peace with anybody (contumely arrogant people).

    Therefore they do not deserve a counry. Kick them out of their country and hope that somebody will take them in. (Juden raus!)

    But they are so impossible to live with, nobody likely will. (ItbaH al Yahud!)

    Now let’s replace one word in this simplfication – substitute “Jew” for “Israeli” – Israel in its poresent form is the JEWISH State.

    And now reduce to a simple solution.

    “KILL THE JEWS”

    Gee, I’ve heard that before…

  • moonraven

    Except that I did not replace Israel with JEWS. And furthermore, Ruvy knows full well that I am not in favor of killing the Jews–or any other ethnic/religious group. We have delineated this differences on other threads.

    But I do have to say that the behavior of the Israeli government is probably more than sufficient to piss off enough people so that a revival of anti-semitism could be probable in the near future.

    The government of Israel has no one to blame but itself if that happens.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    You didn’t say “kill the Jews”, but you might as well have. The logical answer to YOUR “solution” above is “LOCK AND LOAD.”

    Now, Marthe, let’s give a more intelligent look at your assertions, and assuming that they are true, find a just solution.

    Might I suggest simply that you substitute “Israelis” above with “government of Israel.” In truth, the government of Israel is not really interested in “peace.” It is interested in power and protecting those who keep it in power – rich businessmen who exploit the poor in this country.

    The government should be deposed, and one that protects the rights of Israelis, acting to pursue justice, replace it. That makes a lot more sense because innocents in this country are not oppressed by the deposing of an unjust and tyrannical regime that hides under the forms of democracy, much as did the government of Ghana did forty years ago. They are liberated instead.

    A government truly interested in justice, which is free from American or European interference or dominance will implement a solution that grants justice to the resident Arabs in this land.

  • moonraven

    Hey, Ruvy, I am not shy. What I want to say I have no fear of saying. Therefore,l let’s not put words in my mouth.

    I have no problem with making disticntions between the Israeli government and Israelis–up to a point. Unfortunately, enough time has passed that I have seen a fair sample of what Israelis do once they get their hands on power.

    It isn’t pretty.

    I stand by my previous suggestion: de-countrify Israel.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I am not shy either, Marthe; you effectively suggested killing of the Jews of Israel, of whom I am one.

    I am not interested in your intellectual equivocation or bullshitting, (as in “But I do have to say that the behavior of the Israeli government is probably more than sufficient to piss off enough people so that a revival of anti-semitism could be probable in the near future. The government of Israel has no one to blame but itself if that happens.”)which is all the difference between me and the rich dummies of North Tel Aviv, who would argue with you till your goons shoved them off a dock to die.

    MY ANSWER TO PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHEREVER YOU LIVE OR SHOW YOUR FACE, IS LOCK, LOAD AND FIRE. If your own hatred of my people gets you killed, you have no one to blame but yourself.

  • moonraven

    Cut the shit, RUV: At no point did I advocate KILLING anybody.

    I advocated and still advocate DE-COUNTRIFICATION of Israel.

    That is my last word on the subject, as you have gone off your meds again. And now you are threatening me. I believe threats fall directly under the heading of personal attacks, sir.

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    It’s hard to know where to begin with this inflammation dressed up to be bandage. The inaccuracies and biases make it virtually unintelligible.

    The Palestinians have also come to believe that Israel does not want peace, because of the provocative tactics during ceasefires and negotiations.

    Huh? Is that before or after Hamas and the PLO started killing each other. Or the idiot Hamas keep launching missiles into Israel. Or the walkaway from at least the beginnings of peace by Yassir “I be de man” Airafloat. Or the fact that Hamas still calls for the destruction of Israel along with their good friends in Syria and Iran.

    Gimme a break. If you’re going to do “analysis,” then analyze something–no wonder Ruvy sees anti-semitism everywhere. It’s called survival among the savages.

    In Jameson Veritas

  • JustOneMan

    Marthe…Dont worry about Ruvy…not that I am attacking him but people his age are many times suffering from impotence and senility…

    Amazing how tough people are when they can hide behind the computer!

    JOM

  • methuselah

    “…the behavior of the Israeli government is probably more than sufficient to piss off enough people so that a revival of anti-semitism could be probable in the near future.”

    Apparently, it isn’t necessary to revive anti-semitism. It’s not dead and it’s not even dormant.

    “The government of Israel has no one to blame but itself if that happens.”

    Huh!

    And I say this even tho I don’t trust the Israelis, personally. Remember the USS Liberty!

    Surely it would be easier to ‘de-countrify’ the palestinians since there are so many nations in the area who would love to take in their beloved brothers with open arms. Aren’t there?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    My final words on this particular thread.

    1. People who sit patrol ready to defend their homes can talk about the senility of others. Just got back from the bootka at the gate of the village. Fools from the stinking dumps of New Jersey are wiser to keep quiet lest they be called on their bullshit.

    2. Methuselah (what a moniker!) has called Marthe for what she is – in spite of his dislike/distrust of the Israeli government… Kol hakavód – all honor to you for pointing out the rancid odor of Jew hatred rising from behind the equivocation of an academic who got caught saying what she really meant.

    3. Liam, Mark has pointed out the problems with your article. You have contrasted the “righteous Palestinian” position with a “caspar milquetoast” Israeli position that is not really an analysis at all.

    Zionism was a tool that was the right tool to accomplish its goal. But it needs to be put in its box (I believe that was my term originally, Liam) because the nation of Israel needs to progress beyond this pathetic secular “state” to achieve its Redemption – and thereby provide justice and equity for the resident Arabs and returning Children of Israel.

    That’s all she wrote, guys. Now it is time for me to leave this machine and give praise to my Maker for allowing me to see another dawn – a grey day even in the clouds surrounding the mountains of Samaria.

    Bóker Tov meharéi Shomrón ba’Éretz Yisraél!

  • http://www.alifereviewed.co.uk joe

    Ruvy – sorry to butt in, but how would you feel about a non-religious state in Israel/Palestine encompassing all Israeli/Palestinians as equal citizens?

    [Genuine question btw. This has been mooted several times in discussion I have had with various people. Personally I think it is a non-starter, but hey, what do I know?]

  • JustOneMan

    The problem is illustrated in Ruvies post..

    1. Arrogance of a people believeing that they are the chosen ones and the rest of us dont matter.

    2. The broken record of victimization

    3. Delusion that they are able to defend themselves without the support of the US.

    Hey Ruvy maybe we can ship NJ garbage to your country its obvious that it is already a dump filled with garbage pickers!

    JOM

  • http://absent-mind.blogspot.com/ Jet in Columbus

    ” people his age are many times suffering from impotence and senility…

    Amazing how tough people are when they can hide behind the computer!

    JOM ”

    That is one of the most hypocritical and pathetic statements I’ve ever read…

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    I have said this before, but I will say it again: compromise is necessary but not possible on either side. YET.

    I think often of Gorbachev’s rise to power in the Soviet Union and how it was remarked upon that he was the first Soviet leader to be born after the Revolution of 1917. That was somewhat symbolic, but there was a tremendous piece of logic to it, too: Gorbachev had no memories, sacrifice, or other personal investment in the Soviet Revolution.

    The time, I think, for any lasting peace to occur between Israelis and Palestinians (admittedly, I say this from a long distance away in space and time) will be when the people in power on BOTH sides were born after the 1948 war. Maybe even after the 1967 war, but absolutely after the 1948 war. And for the same reason: so that they had nothing invested, gained, or lost in those conflicts. No scars.

    In other words, the first real step to peace in the Middle East is to have 1948 be history–not memory.

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    I’m curious how this so-called process of “de-countrification” would ever happen….

    Who do you think would bell that particular cat?

    What on earth makes you think that the people being “de-countrified” would be willing to sit passively back and let things happen?

  • moonraven

    It’s really quite simple.

    The British buggered off from the Palestinian Mandate to fight Rommel in the desert of Egypt, effectively giving in to the Zionist terrorists.

    The UN (wet behind the ears but apparently well-intentioned) made Israel a country–a country that since 1948 has given the finger to every single one of the UN resolutions passed against it.

    The UN giveth and the UN taketh away.

    The UN should take away Israel’s charter as a nation of the UN. They should unload the refugee camps of their millions of Palestinians and repatriate those families.

    Let the US Zionists take up the slack for the “Israelis”. I think the process is called Putting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Simple eh? Even ignoring the fact that getting the UN to agree to anything remotely significant requires huge work and support and generally results in ineffective posturing more often than not, you still have no real legal precedent for taking action.

    It is highly questionable whether the UN would have the legal right to “de-countrify” anyone(countries are not required to be members of the UN to exist and the legal definition of a country and its right to exist under international law pre-dates the UN by a considerable margin).

    As an added bonus, the UN has no standing army and no “enforcement” capabilities beyond which it’s members willingly provide it.

    Lastly if you think your de-countrification suggestion would result in anything else other than a vicious and bloody war, then you are delusional.

    In short, your exercise in “de-countrification” would remain where it probably should – another fantasy-based solution for people to blog endlessly about.

  • moonraven

    I think you just want to argue, as history is not your strong suit.

    As I indicated previously, Israel was CREATED by the UN General Assembly (in 1947, actually).

    If the UN can CREATE a country, it can take away that creation. That’s legal precedent in itself.

    The UN General Assembly has had NO trouble agreeing on way more than a fistful of resolutions against Israel since its creation. Do a google search!

    The US has vetoed most of them, and Israel has ignored the rest because the US told it to.

    With US influence in the toilet at the moment, there is no better time than the present to decountrify Israel.

    As for countries willing to contribute military support to enforce said de-countrification, I can think of more than sufficient numbers–not even considering the Arab countries. There is a pretty good handful from Latin America–beginning with Venezuela, which withdrew its ambassador to Israel last summer as a result of the war crimes committed against Lebanon.

    A vicious and bloody war is the daily bread of Israel. De-countrification is the only way to put an end to that.

  • moonraven

    At least this poster blogs about what she KNOWS!

  • zingzing

    what you “know” is rather simplistic. what do you suggest doing with the jews? or the fact that they won’t go for “de-countrification?”

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Moonraven,

    I am well aware that the UN approved the 1947 Partition Plan dividing the territory into 2 states. The Partition Plan was followed, as you should well know, by widespread fighting between the Arabs and the Jews which eventually became a full-fledged war, leading to the declaration of the State of Israel in 1948.

  • moonraven

    You now can’t read: I posted above (19): Let the US Zionists take up the slack for the “Israelis”. I think the process is called Putting Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.

    I said it was really very simple. And it IS.

    Only the folks who support Israel’s continued genocide and war crimes (folks who continue doing the same thing themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan) say it’s complex.

    The Arabs don’t see it as complex at all.

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Sorry, meant to preview, pushed publish…

    To continue…this then lead to the first Arab-Israeli War in 1948 which ended with Israel: 1, Arabs states: nil. The UN formally admitted Israel in 1949.

    In short, the UN certainly set the playing field and laid the groundwork, but they didn’t create the state…

    The last time I looked the UN was chock full of members who have starved, injured, oppressed, tortured, beaten, murdered, conquered etc. I’m all for setting a standard code of behavior to govern membership, but it would need to be applied to everyone, not just Israel.

    The only real way to “de-countrize” any place is either to conquer it, assimilate it or destroy it. Anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their hat. Thinking you can conveniently stuff them into a suitcase and ship them to Nebraska is superficial, lightweight and delusional reasoning.

  • moonraven

    Deano–

    Your post is word for word from the site you googled. I just checked–as it was not your vocabularly (I have been busting beginning writers for plagiarism in universities since 1968). Glad you bothered to look it up, but you also committed plagiarism in your post.

    You were not fuly aware of anything before your google search. You were just shooting off hot air.

    As for shipping Israelis to Nebraska, so far as I know Nebraska is not exactly a hotbed of US Zionists. But I could be wrong….

    If you don’t like US Zionists paying the piper, then why not put them in Yorkshire? It was the Brits who flubbed the Mandate, after all.

    The president of Iran suggested Austria–or Eastern Germany. Those might also be good ideas based on guilt, especially since the Palestinians did not commit the Holocaust.

    If you don’t like my idea because it’s too SIMPLE, and want to muck it up to look complex, come up with your own half-assed solution.

  • moonraven

    Just in case you want to apply the de-countrification standard to all countries in the UN, as a Native American I would be more than happy to see the US de-countrified, too.

    Just so you don’t waste time accusing me of that….

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Please enlighten me as to where I searched? Or is proof too heavy a burden for accusations of plagerism to bear?

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Oh and by the way, it is not because your idea is too simple, it is because it manifestly delusional and genuinely stupid.

    It is unworkable, plain and simple, without killing a great many more people from both sides of the conflict.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Mark Schannon:

    It’s hard to know where to begin with this inflammation dressed up to be bandage. The inaccuracies and biases make it virtually unintelligible.

    “The Palestinians have also come to believe that Israel does not want peace, because of the provocative tactics during ceasefires and negotiations.”

    Huh? Is that before or after Hamas and the PLO started killing each other. Or the idiot Hamas keep launching missiles into Israel. Or the walkaway from at least the beginnings of peace by Yassir “I be de man” Airafloat. Or the fact that Hamas still calls for the destruction of Israel along with their good friends in Syria and Iran.

    Yes, actually, the case I gave example of was before the latest ceasefire, I provided a link to the West Bank arrest raids that Israel launched the minute the most recent ceasefire came into effect. Yeah, they want peace OK. OK, the Palestinians started killing each other, so Israel and their backers began funneling money and weaponry to one of the warring factions, and arranging meetings and making symbolic gestures of an eighth of tax revenues not a drop into the ocean of Palestinian poverty, and promising to remove checkpoints which they didn’t even do. Obviously those policies were designed to widen the rift. Yeah, Israel wants peace OK.

    And now the unity government and the slim chance that Fatah may be able to moderate Hamas’ stance even further, did Israel give them a chance, no they immediately began applying their significant sway to shun the new government and even their previous policies’ patron Abbas’ Fatah, followed by yet more provocation, when people start trying to revive peace talks, I.e. Abbas visits Russia, Israel raids Nablus. Yeah, Israel wants peace OK.

    Israel broke the Oslo accords by continuing to annex land, the are currently violating the roadmap by building and expanding settlements. Yeah Israel wants peace OK. The Palestinians kept up the violence because Israel keeps making a mockery of their existence.

    You aree criticizing Hamas for calling for the destruction of Israel, you and I have no idea what its like to grow up under the occupation of a cruel and unnaccountable regime with massive military power and no quams about using it. These provocations and rejection of peace have been going on for years, Hamas members may have come to believe the only way to end the occupation and save their families and children from the same life they endure is violence. Can you blame them?

    Mark you mention inaccuracies and biases as if they are many but fail to mention any, simply repeating the common line of everyone who fails to scratch the surface of this murky conflict.

    A prominent Israeli author wrote an excellent article on Israel’s malicious wrecking of all attempts for peace. Read Gideon Levy and get back to me.

    Oh and Deano The war didn’t lead to the declaration of Israeli independence it was the other way round, the declaration lead to the war, hence its name the war of independence.

    Moonraven you should read an article properly before commenting. Where did I say Israel was committed to peace, I said quite the opposite in fact. I laid out many changes that are needed to force Israel to commit to peace.

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro Nicolo

    Michael J. West – well said. “De-countification?” Please.

  • Deano

    The war didn’t lead to the declaration of Israeli independence it was the other way round, the declaration lead to the war, hence its name the war of independence

    Sorry, you’re right Liam. My mistake, I had the order on that particular item backwards.

  • sr

    Jet my friend. Your comment #16 was perfect. No wonder I call you friend, especially after I lay all that nuke crap on you. Of course I lack the skills for intellectual debate. Du, no surprise their, like I give a crap. My friend Ruvy I will always stand up for, just like you Jet. Of course Im the conservative one. My business card states HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL. Just like Paleidin’s. So my friends, what can I do for you on this day.

  • methuselah

    INO, de-countrification won’t work. The Israelis will incinerate the whole ME first.

    As an alternative, I propose de-religionizaion: get rid of all the religious influence in either country.

  • sr

    methuselah, how the hell would you do that? Maybe send moonraven as secretary of state or the aclu.

  • Zedd

    Arabs and Jews are too much alike. They are both very convinced of their importance in the grand scheme of things. They have pushed the world into focusing on them for decades now. Jews say they are CHOSEN above all others. Extremist Muslim Arabs are excessively pius to the point of killing to force others to do what they want. Whether it is through martyrdom or force these brothers WILL get attention.

    How many sitcoms do we watch were they HAVE to say they are Jewish? What is the percentage of Jews in America???

    This is not to say that I dislike Jews or Arabs. So don’t start the drama about anti Semitism. I am acknowledging something that is VERY prevalent.

    We would like to move on from discussing the middle east. Its not that big of an area. Africa is in ruins. Asia is struggling. Europe is at our heals. Yet somehow we must discuss this region over and over again.

    Motto: Abraham had to be a huge knucklehead and drama queen.

    I mean all of the extreme declarations and exaggerations. Every one’s hands flailing in the air claiming to have G*d on their side. I mean look at Ruvy’s response. It is so self absorbed and extreme. He thinks people want him dead (chuckles). Muslims go on about sleeping with a thousand virgins… people can we be more dramatic.

    Even when singing, people of this region cant just hit a note, they have to add a long trill to over pronounce it (even though I love the music).

    Its too much. Its called personal space. I think that the people of this region need to be ignored. That may be the worst thing for them.

  • methuselah

    “Motto: Abraham had to be a huge knucklehead and drama queen.”

    Somebody had to say it. Thank you, Zedd.

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    When it is all-important for individuals and the nations they form to be part of a dominant religious in-group because they think God told them they are–through some cobbled-together “divine revelation”–reason, logic, and even common sense are totally wasted:

    “Why do we destroy ourselves in order to destroy those not in our group? Because it’s our way in the Middle East”!

    Does the term “abnormal psychology” ring a bell?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    It turns out that I have an asshole for a landlord – so I’m in a foul mood. The best kind to deal with the crap on this comment list.

    First of all, let’s deal with JOM. JOM is a little Christian boy who thinks that his fuckin’ god-on-a-stick is the solution to all of mankind’s problems. Every now and then, he lets that fact out.

    Newsflash… JOM’s problem is that he cannot stand a Jew who is proud of who he is and has absolutely no use for him, his shitass country or his shitass religion. I can’t wait for someone to prove the tenets of the bullshit he puts out as a religion to be proven false.

    Even if I do not live to see that day, my kids will. [Personal attack deleted] Enough Jews have lost their souls lusting after his pathetic version of salvation.

    Zedd, [Personal attack deleted] Hey, post your own articles on Darfur and South Africa. Show what expertise you really have.

    As for Marthe, she is a Jew-hater, whether she will admit it or not. All that matters to me is that she managed to show her true colors in comment #3. Everything else she says is bullshit tossed around in $20 words.

    Mark, don’t let Liam confuse you with traitors to the country like writers from Ha’aretz. Liam’s heroes all somehow hate Jews and the G-d of Israel – whether they are fancy ass academics like Ilan Pape or Noam Chomsky or lying leftists like Gideon Levy. Don’t ever forget that.

    Finally – all of you remember that I will be as savage in my deeds as in my words if the situation requires it. It is, as Mark puts it so well, survival among the savages – and unfortunately some of them are Jews who pretend to religion while practicing theft.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Ah yes,

    I forgot my buddy, sr. I’m really sorry if I seem so insulting. Honest. But assholes like JOM bring out the anger in me.

    Don’t ever view yourself as “a village idiot.” You’re a good man with your heart in the right place…

  • JustOneMan

    First of all, let’s deal with Ruvy. Ruvy is a little JEW boy who thinks that his fuckin’ yamakule is the solution to all of mankind’s problems.

    JOM

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy you have proven that your version of the being a Jew means degrading and mocking Chritianity at every step of the way…

    You have proven yourself to be a Nazi! How ironic someone who has built his whole world of playing the poor little victim has turned into the same type of person that pushed his relatives into the ovens…

    [Personal attack deleted]

  • Aku

    Ruvy,

    No need to insult a whole relgion, if one is an asshat. Bad form man.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This is for Mark Schannon specifically. Never give up points on the playing field to the enemy, Mark. There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Don’t believe me. Listen to PLO Executive Committee member, Zahir Muhsein.

    March 1, 2007

    PLO Official: “The Palestinian People Do Not Exist”

    This quote may be 30 years old, but you’re not alone if you’re seeing it for the first time. The mainstream media and the propagandists of Islam have good reason to keep this strategy to eliminate Israel a well-guarded secret!

    “The ‘Palestinian people’ do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

    For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a ‘Palestinian,’ I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

    Z — PLO Executive Committee member, Zahir Muhsein

    March 31, 1977, interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Aku,

    The comments editor will not go after assholes like JOM and restrain him from his inflammatory comments. So, it’s left to folks like me whom he habitually attacks to use the flamethrower to fight fire with fire. I got him mad enough that he was sputtering with anger, and misspelling words in his response.

    That will have to do, I guess. I don’t give a crap what he calls me. If “Nazi” is the best he can do, it shows how limited his intelligence is…

  • The village idiot

    JOM, lET ME BE KIND AND NOT JUDGE YOU. PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A CHRISTEN AND THE REASONS WHY YOU BELIEVE IT. NO REAL CHRISTEN WOULD EVER TURN THEIR BACK TO ISRAEL AS YOU HAVE DONE AND ESPECIALLY TO RUVY. I WOULD NOT INSULT THE FAITH MYSELF PROCLAIMING IM CHRISTEN, HOWEVER I DO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS CHRIST. MY FAULTS ARE MANY, MY LANGUAGE IS NOT DESIRABLE, MY SPELLING SUCKS BUT FRANKLY SCARLETT I DONT GIVE A DAM. JOM, NO REAL CHRISTEN WOULD EVER CALL A JEW A NAZI. SOMEDAY I WILL GO TO ISRAEL AND FIND MY FRIEND RUVY. MAYBE YOU CAN GO WITH ME JOM. WHAT SAY YOU.

  • JustOneMan

    Now I know why you are the Village Idiot…

    Oh gee Ruvy you really got me now…yawnnn..

    [Personal attack deleted]

    JOM

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy…Jesus Loves You!

    JOM

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Ruvy for all your huff and bluster you still haven’t argued one point in my article, simply riding on the back of Mark Schannon with you’re own breed of warped patriotism.

    Let me ask you why you went to Israel, who convinced you? If you’re such a patriot you need to realize that you’re country’s behaviour in stealing all of Palestine while it keeps the world busy with its constantly falsified fear is projecting a terrible image of Israel and Jews, an image that will be forever stained in the world’s memory.

    Now:

    Mark, don’t let Liam confuse you with traitors to the country like writers from Ha’aretz. Liam’s heroes all somehow hate Jews and the G-d of Israel – whether they are fancy ass academics like Ilan Pape or Noam Chomsky or lying leftists like Gideon Levy. Don’t ever forget that.

    So, Ruvy, anyone but you, anyone but a two bit burger man, anyone with more intelligence and even a little common sense who dares to spread the truth is either wrong or a liar, this is very familiar from patriotic Israelis and why you’re country continues to get away with its behaviour. I’m surprized you didn’t just call yet another Jew anti-Semitic.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    BTW, Ruvy, I have said this before and I’ll no doubt say it again, you are creating a bad image for you’re religion on these threads. You are always bangin on about how much you hate the Zionist government yet you are always defending them, and it is always clear from you’re comments that you think the children of Israel should have the whole of historic Palestine and all the Arabs should be killed or expelled. That is what the Nazi’s thought about the Jews, and it displays many of the stereotypes which stopped the world from acting against the holocaust, first and foremost greed.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Now, now Liam,

    I was not a two bit burger man. Be fair. Those whoppers went for $1.99 a piece (plus tax) where I lived (they went for a lot more in New York or in DC, where Mark hangs his hat), the equivalent of a whole pound sterling. I realize that twenty shillings doesn’t get you much in Lizzie-Land these days (a friend and customer who had visited the UK told me about how little the pound bought in spite of the exchange rate), but when I lived and worked in Minnesota, it got you a one whole delicious artery-clogging meat sandwich filled with tomato, lettuce, pickle and onions, complete with a smear of good fatty mayonnaise. And you should have seen what the real tubbies ordered in drive-thru (when they weren’t gabbing on cell phones)….

    I’m sorry – I got lost in memories…

    Let’s get to your “analysis.” I really didn’t comment too heavily because Mark said it all.

    Let us start with a couple of facts.

    1. There is no such an animal as “Palestine.” This was a creation of foreigners (Roman savages) with a name designed to insult the Judean/Jewish inhabitants of the land. Those foreigners engaged in a genocide of the Jewish people that lasted for a long time (decades or more), and a systematic persecution of the natives of this land that makes any “disaster” that befell the resident Arabs in 1948 and since look like nothing.

    2. There is no such thing as a “Palestinian.” Don’t believe me. Believe Zahir Muhsein, a member of the PLO Central Committee. Stick his quote up the butts of those Arab magazine publishers who love your writing so much. You’ll burst a very nasty hemorrhoid if you do.

    This entire conflict, when viewed through the lenses of Zahir Muhsein, becomes the determined efforts of the losers of a war to reverse that loss and erase the Jewish presence in the land. The resulting reversal would be another genocide of the Jewish people, the ones who live here now. So these questions arise:

    1. Why do Israeli ‘intellectuals’ agree with this agenda?
    2. Why does the official “Zionist” establishment also agree with this agenda, shoving self-hatred down the throat of Israeli schoolchildren and schooling them in ignorance of history instead of truth?

    The answers, I’m afraid, came out of the mouth of the great Rabbi Kook in the early part of the twentieth Christian century, and in the latter part of the 57th century, according to the Rabbinic calendar.

    He warned that the secular leadership of the resettlement movement known as Zionism lacked faith in G-d, and because they did, the day would ultimately come when they would abandon their enterprise for the cultures of exile from whence they came.

    This is exactly what has occurred. That day has come and this country is living in spiritual depression because it has. The artificial “Israeli” culture created by the secular Zionist movement has been thrown overboard in its entirety, and secular Israeli elites mimic as best they can Europeans or Americans. Therefore, the intellectuals who speak so stridently in criticism of Israel and Zionism but in favor of Arabs who would kick them out of the country if they got full power feel they have nothing to lose in their eyes. They far prefer exile in sophisticated London or Berlin to living at home in boring Tel Aviv. The truth is, they do not give a damn about the Jews from Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt who have built lives here. They only have contempt for those Jews who actually believe in the G-d of Israel and Redemption, people like me. From the point of view of these empty souled ‘intellectuals,’ who know the price of everything and the value of nothing, this is a sucker enterprise, and the sooner they get out, the better. In their hearts they agree with Marthe Raymond, because they have nothing to believe in anymore.

    The Zionist establishment is virtually the same. If the Nation of Israel moves beyond the pathetic little “state” they have created, the Zionist establishment will lose their jobs. If they have to lose their jobs, better that they should have comfortable lecture circuits in exile bemoaning the failure and betrayal of the Zionist movement.

    Heck, if the priesthood is recreated with a Temple and sacrifices and all, the Levites and the Kohanim will be the new elite, and the rabbis, particularly the Hareidi (Hassidic) rabbis, will all be out of jobs. So even amongst “religious” Jews, there is real resistance to moving beyond the present “state.”

    There, young man, are your answers. A man without faith in G-d, or faith in the Tana”kh, will easily be convinced by liars who come bearing false tales of “naqba”, who complain that they have no home, when they are in fact just like the Lebanese and Syrians around them, and when historically they viewed themselves as part of Syria.

    Let us quote Zahir Muhsein once more:

    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a ‘Palestinian,’ I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

    This Arab was telling the truth.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    BTW, Liam, I dealt with a Jew last night who perpetuates the very stereotypes of Jews you mention in comment #51, particularly avarice and greed. It got me in a foul enough mood to commit murder – but causing his death, not yours. He has the beard and the kippa, and seeks to steal while blaming me for actions that he himself did. He debases the very blessings he pronounced last night with the hatred, lies and avarice in his heart. His very sister told me not to blame her for his character.

    Just because a man says he is religious does not make him a believer in G-d. Any fool can perform rituals. For a long time I stayed away from Judaism precisely because of hypocrites like him. But apparently, G-d had other plans, and I have to deal with trash like him.

    So it goes…

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    I doln’t care how or why Palestine was created it exists, deal with it. Nor do Icare what this Zahir Mussein said, which you obviously found out about only recently and were so close to climax you posted her and on this thread at DC and god knows where else almost simultaneously. As has been shown many times over the years the PLO does not represent Palestinians, or for your benefits residents of the West Bank and Gaza, the only people the PLO leadership cares about are themselves.

    And once more, I don’t care about any of the other crap in your rant, You still hav.Yoen’t argued any of the facts in my article proper, You say you did not comment too heavily because Mark said it all but as I said in my response to Mark he said nothing:

    Mark you mention inaccuracies and biases as if they are many, but fail to mention any, simply repeating the common line of everyone who fails to scratch the surface of this murky conflict.

    all I care about is that israel’s Zionist government has been allowed by the U.S government to become a law only to itself. Because of this they are free to annex as much palestinian land as they want, which has already reached levels that make any Palestinian state impossible, and therefore the degradation and horrible treatment of Palestinians set to continue. You can go on till the cows come home about the PLO creating the palestinians to continue to fight the war but you yourself have said the the neighbouring Arab countries don’t care about the Palestinians or they would have taken them in when given the chance. I agree with that analagy, the Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel because of the selfishness of their brethren in neighbouring countries, all irrelvant, whatever they are called they inhabit the Israeli occupied territories and suffer all the –if we can’t forcefully expell them lets make their lives so horrible they are forced to leave– treatment therein. Something has to be done and fast and I believe all the things in my article are the answer. Call me bias if you like but all the things I lay at the door of Zionism is true. And as for ethnic cleansing Israel didn’t only do it in 1948, they did it to the Bedouin tribes for decades, relocating truckloads at a time and are still doing it to this day. A law unto themselves, one day a U.S. government will see the monster it has created and finally do the right thing, mind you, not if AIPAC has anything to do with it.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “I don’t care about any of the other crap in your rant.”

    I guess that says it all, eh? The problem with your analysis is that it has all the consistency of cotton candy. Bite into it and it disappears. I don’t analyze phantoms.

    “…all I care about is that Israel’s Zionist government has been allowed by the U.S government to become a law only to itself. Because of this they are free to annex as much Palestinian land as they want, which has already reached levels that make any Palestinian state impossible,…”

    Dammit Liam, if you are going to write on this subject at all, at least learn a little law. The territories known as the Gaza Strip and Judea $ Samaria are disputed territory. The region is the remnant of the Ottoman Empire. The successor in interest to the Ottoman Empire was the Palestine Mandate of the League of Nations, which was followed by the Kingdom of Jordan and the Kingdom of Egypt respectively. When the State of Israel liberated these lands an installed an occupation authority here, the successor in interest to the Ottoman Empire became the State of Israel. There is no “Palestine”. The “Palestinian Authority” does not exercise sovereign authority over one dunam of land here. Until thte State of Israel annexes it, or a treaty is signed between sovereign representatives of sovereign nations deciding the status of this territory, this land will remain disputed territory with the successor in interest to the Ottoman Empire being the State of Israel.

    The point of all this is that the State of Israel has not annexed any of Judea and Samaria or Gaza, except perhaps the Latrun salient in the west, and the territories that comprise the City of Jerusalem in the east. That is why the territory remains disputed.

    Finally, Liam, as long as all you publish is cotton candy about this area, that is how I’ll regard it. Your Arab editors are lapping the stuff up, but cotton candy it remains.

  • JustOneMan

    Liam…

    What you fail to understand is that there is a bizarre cult within the Jewish religion that prays every waking hour for Armageddon and the second holocaust.

    They believe, as exemplified in the rants and raves of previous posts that – THEY DO NOT WANT A SOLUTION OR PEACE. A solution will prove their religion and belief system to be false!

    So trying to have a rational discussion with someone who is waiting for the end of the world is irrational! The fear of these types is that in the end their religion may be relegated to the stature of the Heaven’s Gate Cult (where 38 followers committed suicide so that their souls could take a ride on a spaceship) and the Jim Jones cult.

    They cannot accept peace or a solution. There interpretation of the Good Book does not include a happy ending – so radical Islam and radical Jews are bound together in the holy quest for mutual destruction!

    JOM

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Oh, you want to talk law eh?

    Possesion Is 9/10 of the law. The Palestinians as they are now called were living on the land before Israel existed and they are living on it now. It is their land.

    You are talking crap, the land given to isreal by the partition plan is Israel’s, they stole more in the 1948 war of independence, you can probably make some cvase for that being Israel’s aswell. But the West Bank and Gaza weren’t occupied by Israel until 1967, and the United Nations SC has issued a legally binding Resolution for the return of that land. Like it or not the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza is illegal, the land belongs to the Palestinians. Bye Bye Ruvy, Bye Bye.

  • |Ruvy in Jerusalem

    You made my day, Liam.

    Possession is nine tenths of the law. And Israel POSSESSES the land. It is therefore ours by right of possession.

    It doesn’t make a difference whether we stole the land, inherited the land or conquered the land. Because WE possess it, it is OURS. That is what “possession is nine tenths of the law” means. Go check any book on real estate law. Since you make this argument, you have effectively granted us, the Israelis, effective and legal control of this land. Maybe I should write your editors at Palestine Chronicle about your point of view…

    Do you always make it so easy for your adversaries, Liam?

    Here’s a towel – go wipe the shit off of your face. And don’t forget to dry the shaving cream off from behind your ears…

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    The people living on the land own the land, therefore the Palestinians own it. And possesion being nine tenths of the law only works until the possesers are disposessed and Israel can’t hold on forever, I’d bet my lfe on that. BTW, the people at the Palestine Chronicle know my viewpoint but if you have so little in your life that you feel the need to write them go on ahead.

  • |Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I see you understand as little about law as you do politics.

    Ask any Arab, say in the vicinity of Ramallah or ‘Eli. Ask him who controls the land. He’ll likely as not say, “I own it, but the damned Israelis control it.” And the issue of possession deals with control. And that is what you have raised. Deeds lose their relevancy once you raise the issue of control, and that is what possession is all about.

    Control is about whether you can build on the land, dig wells on the land, or be forced to evacuate it if the ruling authority declares it a closed military zone. That is why this is my argument, not yours. You can’t be heard to say out of one side of your mouth that the Arabs possess the land and out of the other that the Israelis stole it. One or the other applies to any given piece of land – not both.

    “Possession is nine tenths of the law” is a “might makes right” argument that gives the holder of power control by right of holding power, Liam. That is not the argument you want to make.

    Your argument is one of rights denied, a very different animal entirely.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Bullshit!

    the issue of possession deals with control. You mentioned real estate law earlier, if a home is left vacant and a squatter takes residence, the owner returns to find the law is on the side of the squatter. The owner of the house controls the house, but the squatter possesses it and possession is nine tenths of the law. Anyway this argument is irrelevant, we all know that Israel knows know law. They are a law unto themselves, when you meet. I can sleep at night and know I have nothing to fear when I go to my maker because I always try and help people, do a good turn before a bad turn, stand up for those weaker than myself and try to speak out against oppression and inhumanity. Can you say the same Ruvy?

  • The village idiot

    JOM, I asked you what it means to be a Christen and the reasons why you believe it. Can you answer this for me. Maybe lima bean and you should hold my title as THE VILLAGE IDIOT.

    VIVA ISRAEL

  • http://www.friendlymisanthropist.blogspot.com alessandro nicolo

    Liam, I have a question. I’ll play a devil’s advocate part. You say you don’t care about the PLO, but haven’t the PLO worsened the plight of the Palestinians? Doesn’t that make them relevant? Do Arabs and Palestinians alike realize they too have some responsibilities when it comes to reaching peace? They have been offered fair deals in the past – steeping stones if you will where Israel made huge concessions. To a laymen like me, I see Israel as a democracy that allows for Arabs in the Knesset. That’s more than we can say for most of the dysfunctional states around them. It’s amazing to see a tiny state like that hold its own against massive huffing and puffing. Surely their security paranoia must count for some of their behaviour and quite frankly I can see why. Oppression should not lead to the moral depravity of suicide bombing. Sorry. Good and enlightened leadership could have steered them from this. I would like to hear your perspective on this seeing that you are closer to the ground. Ruvy feel free to jump in.

  • JustOneMan

    hey you fucking Village Idiot… what does Christen mean…via yo mammas mouth!

    Oh yea Ruvy well I think 9/10ths is better than 8/10ths…I guess I told you.

    This is why Israel is loosing any credibility it has left. So if according to Ruvy – all Jews hate Christians and all Arabs hat christians…fuck both of your “gutter” religions!

    JOM

  • VI

    JOM, did yo mamma teach you to talk like this. She would have you dining on a bar of soap. All Jews do not hate Christians nor do all Arabs (hat) hate Christians. Im proud to share the gutter with Ruvy. Please feel free to join us or are you to elevated to partake.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Allessandro, I didn’t say I don’t care about the PLO I said: Nor do Icare what this Zahir Mussein said, which you obviously found out about only recently and were so close to climax you posted her and on this thread at DC and god knows where else almost simultaneously. As has been shown many times over the years the PLO does not represent Palestinians, or for your benefits residents of the West Bank and Gaza, the only people the PLO leadership cares about are themselves. As for Israeli concessions, the last third of my article again about the disengagement which was hailed as a massive Israeli concession but the Palestinians ended up with less control of their affairs and Gaza became a glorified concentration camp. Israel was supposed to have made major concessions for the Oslo accord but they continued to annex land, the Roadmap was supposed to end Israeli settlement expansion yet 3000 homes have been built, another 3000 are being built and a new settlement was recently approved then postponed when Washington kicked up a stink. All the Israeli concessions are just a big show for the world to continue to paint the Palestinians as the bad guys, ensuring a blind eye will continue to their land annexation disguised as security measures, so much so that it is currently thought they have annexed so much lkand there isn’t enough left for a viable palestinian state. The Palestinians are angry at a bias world and an –angelic on the outside cruel and devious on the inside– invader. That is why the terror has continued.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Hey, sr,

    I’m honored to share any gutter with you. The day will come when the likes of JOM will elevate themselves to share it with us (if they survive the Redemption). Until then he can continue to rot in the dumps of Secaucus…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Alessandro,

    Unfortunately, when Liam gets upset, he doesn’t care what anyone says if it contradicts what he does. You can see this in several of his comments on this thread. You even see some of this in his answer to you.

    The result is that his buttons are easy to press and he makes all the wrong arguments for his own cause (like the might makes right argument of possession is nine tenths of the law), and is then forced to retreat to such enlightened reasoning positions as “bullshit!”, a favorite used by refined debaters everywhere.

    Ah… The follies of youth.

    Having baited Liam sufficiently to lead him to tell me yet again, “Bullshit! I don’t care what you say!” I’ll leave off the young man.

    The PLO was founded in the early ’60’s with the intent of wiping out Israel. In 1967, they sent a volunteer brigade to fight the Israelis and were beaten soundly. They, like the Egyptians they fought with, took off their boots and ran away in the sand. After the 1967 defeat, the nephew of the murderous Amin Husseini, Yasser Arafat, emerged as the leader of the PLO, dragging Ahmed Abbas along as a partner. One of the things you learn real fast if you want to fight a war is that you need money – lots of it. In order to get money, you need credibility. Terror is a method to win credibility among deep pockets who sympathize with you but do not want to get their own hands dirty. So, in order to get money for his revolution, Arafat turned to terror.

    Arafat’s initial serious efforts at destroying Israel were aimed at a protectorate of Israel, the Kingdom of Jordan. But the Jordanian king had more than just Israeli protection. He had hired a Pakistani, Zia ul Haq, to command his armed forces and when Arafat attempted a revolution in the Arab refugee camps in Jordan, Zia ul Haq moved in mercilessly, killing off 5,000 Arab refugees. Im mention this number because it is this man who has murdered the most Arab refugees from this country with the most viciousness. After forty years of campaigns against Arab terror, Israel is only now beginning to approach the number of Arabs Zia ul Haq had killed in a few days. The next time you ever hear anybody smart off about Israelis committing genocide, remember that fact.

    Arafat fled Jordan to Lebanon. In the early seventies, Arafat again turned to terror to get money from the moneybags in Arabia and Europe, killing schoolchildren in a bus in Ma’alot, using pencil bombs to kill Israeli children who would pick up pencils on the ground, kidnaopping and killing the Israel Olympic team, hijacking a boat, the Achille Lauro, and having a crippled American Jew rolled off the deck into the ocean to his death.

    Eventually his PLO, in cooperation with(and sometimes in competition with) other Arab terror groups, radicalized the refugees in the camps in Lebanon. With time, this resulted in a war breaking out in Lebanon which escalated into a civil war that destroyed the country. To this day, I’ll not forget the sight of twelve year old kids riding around in Beirut shouldering Kalashnikovs, ready to kill. The blame for the breakdown of the Lebanese Republic falls directly on Yasser Arafat and his campaign of terror. Only in 1982 was the bastard and his PLO driven from Lebanon by invading Israeli soldiers. Arafat fled to Tunis, alive only because of the intervention of the Americans on his behalf.

    The intifada that broke out here in Israel in the late 1980’s was native-run. The fat exiles in Tunis tried to claim credit and ran their organizations underground in the camps here, but the native Arabs were taking events into their own hands and doing their own thing. They wanted just treatment from the Civil Authority, and end to the Jewish villages and towns springing up in Judea and Samaria, and equal pay for equal work. They had plenty of help from the foreign press which tried to make rock throwing incidents all into the equivalent of the Nazis murdering off resistance fighters in Europe, and who succeeded to a degree (hence Liam’s views), but the Israelis themselves were at fault for not thinking the problem through and coming up with an intelligent solution to the terror.

    Their “big idea” was to nurture a religious charitable organization, Hamas, a branch of the Moslem Brotherhood, into a terror group to compete with the PLO and create discord amongst the resident Arabs.

    The second “big idea” was the height of idiocy, one that they bought into when properly packaged by the Americans – to bring in Yasser Arafat to control Arab terror.

    Clinton made Arafat his protege (do you remember all those times that Arafat visited the White House during the Clinton years?) and sponsored “secret” talks in Norway between Israelis who wanted to dump the Zionist state, like Beilin and Pundak, and representatives of the PLO. The result was the Oslo Accords, which made the PLO ruler in Arab inhabited parts of Judea and Samaria and Gaza under the guise of the “Palestinian Authority”.

    The plan was sold to Israelis as a way to “Palestinianize” the problem of the Arab refugees. The Hebrew press started using the term “Palestinian” instead of “Arab,” and talked up the “peace dividend” that would result from pulling Israeli troops out of Ramallah, Jenin, Jericho, Gaza, and other major Arab places of habitation in Judea and Samaria. When Israelis died in terror attacks, they were referred to as “sacrifices for peace,” as though the “dove of peace” had become a bloodthirsty Aztec god requiring human blood to live each day.

    The Hebrew press started to demonize the Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria, and terror attacks continued on their leaders.

    When the Olso Accord were adopted, Arafat, upon his return, ousted most of the native leaders of the intifada, replacing them with his stooges from Tunis. And now let’s return to the point I made about preparing for wear and using terror as a means of establishing credibility to get money from deep pockets. While the western press was lauding the “Palestinian” “state-in-the-making”, Arafat prepared for war. He created satellite terror groups loosely associated with the PLO, so that as the leader of the PLO and of the PA, he could wear the mantle of peace, but at the same time sponsor terror so as to be able to get large amounts of money to prepare for the coming “real” war against Israel.

    So there was never a “Palestinian” “state-in-the-making”, only a terror apparatus supported by thievery within the territory controlled by Arafat, and terror against Israelis, particularly those who lived in Judea and Samaria.

    When Hamas overthrew the PLO in “elections” last January, it was the closest the native Arabs could get to reclaiming the control they had during the first intifada. And as is clear, the powers that be do not want this to occur.

    Now to go back to comment #52 containing Zahir Muhsein’s statement, which I suggest you re-read. Here you see why the Israelis who Liam quotes with such admiration hold the views they do. To recap briefly,

    1. Why do Israeli ‘intellectuals’ agree with this agenda?

    2. Why does the official “Zionist” establishment also agree with this agenda, shoving self-hatred down the throat of Israeli schoolchildren and schooling them in ignorance of history instead of truth?

    The answers, I’m afraid, came out of the mouth of the great Rabbi Kook in the early part of the twentieth Christian century, and in the latter part of the 57th century, according to the Rabbinic calendar.

    He warned that the secular leadership of the resettlement movement known as Zionism lacked faith in G-d, and because they did, the day would ultimately come when they would abandon their enterprise for the cultures of exile from whence they came.

    This is exactly what has occurred. That day has come and this country is living in spiritual depression because it has. The artificial “Israeli” culture created by the secular Zionist movement has been thrown overboard in its entirety, and secular Israeli elites mimic as best they can Europeans or Americans. Therefore, the intellectuals who speak so stridently in criticism of Israel and Zionism but in favor of Arabs who would kick them out of the country if they got full power feel they have nothing to lose in their eyes. They far prefer exile in sophisticated London or Berlin to living at home in boring Tel Aviv. The truth is, they do not give a damn about the Jews from Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt who have built lives here. They only have contempt for those Jews who actually believe in the G-d of Israel and Redemption, people like me. From the point of view of these empty souled ‘intellectuals,’ who know the price of everything and the value of nothing, this is a sucker enterprise, and the sooner they get out, the better. In their hearts they agree with Marthe Raymond, because they have nothing to believe in anymore.

    The Zionist establishment is virtually the same. If the Nation of Israel moves beyond the pathetic little “state” they have created, the Zionist establishment will lose their jobs. If they have to lose their jobs, better that they should have comfortable lecture circuits in exile bemoaning the failure and betrayal of the Zionist movement.

    Heck, if the priesthood is recreated with a Temple and sacrifices and all, the Levites and the Kohanim will be the new elite, and the rabbis, particularly the Hareidi (Hassidic) rabbis, will all be out of jobs. So even amongst “religious” Jews, there is real resistance to moving beyond the present “state.”

    …..

    Let us quote Zahir Muhsein once more:

    “For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While as a ‘Palestinian,’ I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

    Zahir Muhsein was on the PLO Executive in 1977 when he said all this in an interview with a Dutch magazine. I tend to believe Arabs with some authority who tell the truth, not kids from England writing “war blogs.”

  • JustOneMan

    The above post – More proof of rambling hate and dishonesty…

    JOM

  • http://www.alifereviewed.co.uk joe

    Ruvy, do you not think that 3 million people who have lived in the West Bank and Gaza for generations have the right to self determination? If they want to think of themselves as Palestinian rather than Jordanian, Syrian or Lebonese, do they not have that right?

    It doesn’t really matter whether or not you – or anyone else – considers that ‘Palestinian’ is a non-identity, an invention or anything else. A bunch of people – at least 3 million not to mention millions of others who have spent years in ‘temporary’ refugee camps in surrounding countries – consider themselves to be Palestinians and therefore they are Palestinians.

    I wonder if you consider the USA to be a legitimate nation given that it has only existed for a few hundred years. The UK has only really existed since 1066.

    Regarding the Palestinian elections, the recent government is generally considered to be the fairest in the middle east by people with no particular axe to grind. One then has to ask why a majority of Palestinians freely chose to vote Hamas.

  • sr

    Ruvy, just reading some of the comments on this thread we may encounter some very large sewer rats in the gutter.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Let me get this straight. Ruvy, you say you baited me into saying you were talking bullshit. So, you’re admitting you were talking bullshit.

    Let me back track a bit, You and Mark are basically calling me biased, but biased means having an interest in one side meaning you automatically favour that side over the other. I have no such interest, I am neither Arab nor Jew. Ruvy, therefore has far more reason to be biased than I, yet he thinks that he can say:

    The problem with your analysis is that it has all the consistency of cotton candy. Bite into it and it disappears. I don’t analyze phantoms

    Like he is some sort of authority on the matter. He isn’t and he can’t. If Israel suddenly pulled out all the stops for peace and the Arabs rejected it I would change my tune to that effect. Ruvy on the other hand will spout Israeli propaganda until it is coming out of his ears, no matter how far it strays from reality.

  • moonraven

    No time to read all thios stuff since I last posted.

    Just a couple of comments: Liam, I read VERY well, thanks. The point I was trying to make and which you obtusely chose not to get was that your “plan” depends on a commitment to peace on the part of Israel–and that will NEVER–read my lips–happen. Forget about it and the rest of the pie in the sky solutions that others have said.

    Whoever said Palestinians do not exist was wrong. The British were given control of Palestine after WW I. The area continued to be Palestine until it was divided and part called Israel.

    Deano–What you plagiarized was on the first site of the google search. One of the reasons that you got the sequence wrong is you were not even careful when you plagiarized from the site. You knew absolutely squat before the google search.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Like he is some sort of authority on the matter. He isn’t and he can’t. If Israel suddenly pulled out all the stops for peace and the Arabs rejected it I would change my tune to that effect. Ruvy on the other hand will spout Israeli propaganda until it is coming out of his ears, no matter how far it strays from reality.

    Listen, Liam. I do not spout Israeli propaganda. If you want that, go to the Israeli Foreign Ministry website, and you will get all the bullshit you can swallow and more. They pump it out daily. If you go there, make sure you have a barf bag at your side. You’ll need it. I know I do.

    My “authority” comes from the fact that I studied history in detail, far more detail than you would be familiar with, I’ve bounced around for over five decades living what you only have read in history books, AND the fact that unlike you, I live here. You can quote comfortable Israeli academics in their ivory towers all you wish. I stand guard at the village gate; I patrol trampiadas to prevent terrorist attacks. I deal with Israelis and Arabs on a daily basis. I know what it is to fear for my wife and children as they travel the roads here because Arabs want to kill Jews. I know what it is to rejoice because of the birth of another child in this country, another tree in the human Forest of Redemption of the People of Israel.

    YOU DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THIS.

    For me, this is home; it is my destiny, and the destiny, G-d willing, of my descendants on this earth for many generations.

    For you, it is a mere subject to write about – like Manchester United or the British National Party is for me.

    I will not argue further with you. Arguing with a fool is futile.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Thank you for making my point for me Ruvy, all the things you say above give you reason to be extremely biased in favour of Israel and against the Arabs. This means you can’t make statements like the one I stated above because you are biased.

    Also, the things like standing guard at the gate and preventing terrorist attacks, this is a sign of an angry Palestinian population, the anger is your own country’s making. Yet, you don’t want the Palestinians to have the land back that is rightfully theirs, therefore you want your wife to continually be in danger as she travels the roads.

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    Moonraven,

    I’ve watched you pull this plagerism accusation on other people on other threads – it seems to be one of your standard responses and I’ve yet to see you back it up with any evidence. And true to form you don’t back up this one either. It’s petty, shallow and demonstrates pretty throughly that your main purpose in posting your comments on BC is to bait and troll for arguments.

    Unlike Dave Nalle I see no reason to feed the trolls and indulge your personal pathological need to dominate attention. You are a self-grinding axe and contribute very little of substance to the threads you routinely hijack with your specious comments.

  • Nancy

    Thanks, Deano, but I doubt it will do any good, except to feed the stream of venom to be spewed at you & everybody else on this blogsite. MR has some serious problems with accountability &/or connectibility &/or reality & her standard response to any differences (or even agreements!) is to take to accusations (some wilder & more asinine than others) & self-preening self congratulations & one-upmanship. Lost cause, reasoning w/MR. I gave up & ignore her & JOM these days. Save your energy & do likewise.

  • Paul2

    Ruvy

    you’re argumenting that nobody knows anything but you and that anyone criticizing Israel is somewhat an anti-semite. The stuff you’ve posted twists history and legal facts and you choose only to respond to what you like. You’re position is radical and irrational and no sane person believes this stuff. And thats why people like you think that they can just “stop arguing”, because everyone else is too stupid to understand.

    And you do spout Israeli propaganda: That radical site you cited from (“Information Regarding Israel’s Security (IRIS)”) says more than enough.
    All those listings about Arab terrorism. How about listing how many Palestininas the Israeli army has killed-a lot more. Thats also “terrorism”. On the other hand you don’t accept Chomsky as a source. “A faithful triangle” has been written only with Israeli and US-American sources, and it is well worth a read.

    Israel has violated international war from the beginning. You began founding the country before you had legitimacy to do so, when you had some land assigned you did’t care that there were people actually living there and took more land than granted to you. You remain a occupying force with your illegal settlements and that wall you’ve built. You’re the ones using tanks and planes, yet
    you think you’re the sole victims. If the US wouldn’t fund your military so heavily you’d probably be gone. And whats this paranoia about Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, when you sit on a big pile by yourself?

    I don’t deny Israel a right to exist and I don’t support suicide bombings, but you’re postings show that Israel has no interest in striking a deal with the Palestinians. And the only reason you can do that is because the US lets you get away with everything.

  • JustOneMan

    NANCY…

    You have claimed in several posts to be a hard working civil servant. How to you justify wasting tax dollars by blogging all day?

    JOM

  • Nancy

    Some people are too stupid to read, & see what they want to see, or read more into a comment than it contains. Some people are too stupid to do more than distort everything in their own limited, diseased minds by ascribing statements to others that were never made. Some people are too stupid to go back & check what was actually written, to get the facts; they’d rather bitch & lie or cast aspersions because it’s easier, & they’re too stupid to realize how stupid, vapid, juvenile, & torpid they are. Therefore I don’t bother responding to them. They’re a waste of my time & everybody else’s on this website.

  • moonraven

    Anyone is more than free NOT to respond to anyone on this site.

    When I see that someone is blowing smoke and then suddenly insists he or she knew everything about a specific topic and that person’s writing style changes dramatically to include words of more than one syllable, I routine google to see where the person has plagiarized.

    Just habit–many years of getting paid to be a professional educator.

    If you don’t want to get caught, don’t try to pass off someone else’s ideas and writing as your own.

    BTW, this poster is also comletely free to ignore the hysterical posters here who spend their day in the Internet on their employer’s nickel.

  • Paul2

    #78

    I meant international LAW not war …

  • sr

    Just reading the comments on this thread makes me more convinced then ever that the JEWS ARE GODS CHOSEN. ISRAEL FOREVER.

  • Methuselah

    Sigh. I don’t know what to think. I tried following all this stuff about who stole what land from whom, and who committed which atrocities against which victims. Too much material.

    But this morning I saw a nice documentary about Israeli scientists who are protecting the ancient gryphon vulture so I figure they can’t be all bad so I’m voting on the side of the Israelis.

  • moonraven

    Another memeber of the peanut gallery heard from.

  • JustOneMan

    Nancy..why do you keep lying…answer a simple question..do you currently work for a government or non-profit subsidized agency? YES OR NO

    JOM

  • JustOneMan

    SR…by your comments “JEWS ARE GODS CHOSEN” are you admitting to being another Chritian hating jew?

    JOM

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Paul,

    The thing that bothers you is that I don’t suck up to anyone’s ass. I’ve never been popular in my life, and never felt the desire to be liked by the crowd.

    Too many Jews are apologists, always saying “I’m sorry” to the Jew haters in the world, trying to get acceptance and tolerance. Maybe one more explanation will get the Jews acceptance in the world of the goyim – maybe one more concession. That’s all bullshit.

    I don’t give a damn. The people who like and respect me know that, whether they agree or disagree with me. There is a certain cold comfort to knowing that Israel has a nuclear capacity, no matter how it was obtained, that allows an intelligent leader to say to the Jew haters of the world, “if you destroy us, we’ll take as many of you bastards with us as we can, just as did Samson in the Bible.”

    I do have a message to get out, particularly to my fellow Jews. In the not too distant future, the world will change radically, and they have to be ready for that change to survive. So, for the most part, from my point of view, articles like this one are more of a distraction than anything else.

    If you want to have a clue as to where I’m coming from, read my ruminations on the future of the People of Israel. Read my reflections on Jewish Destiny.

  • zingzing

    you aren’t so stupid as all that, are you jom? i swear, boy, you need some help.

  • JustOneMan

    Ruvy..why are you so focused on creating reasons for people to be antisemitic? To rationalize your hate all you do is reinterpret bible passages to fit you twisted hatefull views…

    As a supporter if Israels rigt to exists I am asking you to at least say thank you to the US for supporting your country. For some reason you are above that and bash the US and Christians every chance you get.

    JOM

    JOM

  • Nancy

    Zing #89 … yes – he is. Consider that this person whom everybody thought was a potty-mouthed 12-yr-old troll (without the wit, however, of our resident Troll) actually turned out to be a 29-year-old “man”, a wannabe Ann Coulter clone who presumes everybody works at a standard 9-5 dead-end job or flipping burgers like he does. I would call him a moron but that would be insulting to the retarded. It never seems to occur to this idiot that some people are self-employed, or have erratic schedules, or possibly are retired or maybe even all of the above.

  • JustOneMan

    Nancy…um…er…what is your fucking point?

    And Nancy – I am 49, self employed with 2 masters degrees… [Edited]

    JOM

    Have a nice day!

  • moonraven

    Two degrees from Outofpocket University, Inc. no doubt.

  • Nancy

    As I said, a moron & a legend in his own mind.

  • moonraven

    Nancy, You are not so sharp yourself.

  • Nancy

    On the + side, nowhere near D’oh/jaz by a long shot, & I know it. On the negative end, nowhere near JOM’s either – & I know it.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Okay people, namely Nancy, JOM and Moonraven. If we can’t have a debate about serious issues on a forum like this without it descending into a thread of one line jibes at each other, what chance have we of ever seeing an end to a conflict as long running as Israel/Palestine.

  • moonraven

    So?

    Does that give you the right to jump in and try to browbeat folks about things you know nothing about?

    Or does it give you the right to get an education so that you learn about things you have been shooting off your keyboard about?

    You decide.

  • moonraven

    Liam,

    I believe you answered your own question–albeit several days after I already answered it for you. There will be no peace.

  • http://warpages-leejay.blogspot.com Liam Bailey

    Oh, there’ll be peace, whenever people with you’re mentality are outed from the top flight of Israeli politics.

  • Nancy

    Liam, have you ever read any of the numerous primate studies? All hominids are quarrelsome creatures, and the one that dubs itself Homo Sapiens (har!) is no exception. Even lemurs, if they’re bored, start to fight just for something to do. So do people, even tho supposedly we know better. The problem is, some think they know better than others, are unwilling to let others live their own lives in peace, have Ambitions, or are just plain malicious & avaricious. Hence fighting & war.

  • moonraven

    I have absolutely NOTHING to do with Israeli politics.

    I am 100% on the Palestinian side, FYI. And since I spend a chunk of each year in the Middle East, I am also making a reasoned choice.

  • sr

    JOM#87. What is a Chri-tian hating JEW? I think Chri-tian is a planet where Clingon,s come from.

    LONG LIVE ISRAEL

  • moonraven

    I repeat: Where do these fruitcakes come from?

  • The village idiot

    Fruitcakes come from the bakery of course.

  • JustOneMan

    sr….pleaqse change the liter in the catbox you call Israel..its staring to smell

  • sr

    JOM. “Pleaqse/liter”. Think the smell is your spelling. Bet you use a cat litter box instead of a toilet. ISRAEL WILL DESTROY ANYTHING OR ANYBODY THAT COMES THEIR WAY.

    LONG LIVE ISRAEL

  • moonraven

    sr,

    You are rubber room material, but don’t think that entitles you to degrade cats by comparing them to JOM.

  • JustOneMan

    sr… [Edited] the only reason Israel is alive today is because of Christians and the US. Israel cannot wipe their on ass unless the US buys the toilet paper for them and tells the how to wipe!

    LONG LIVE CHRISTIANS WHO SUPPORT THE UNGRATEFULL JEWS

    JOM